And your partners is I really want to emphasize that it's important to have children
and to create the new generation. And as simple as it sounds, if
people do not have children, there is no new generation. So I'm very
much in favor of humanity expanding and creating a bright and exciting future for the
world. And but fundamental to the furtherance of human civilization is having humans,
as simple and basic as that sounds. And every year I look at the
birth rates and I'm like, it's a bit depressing because birth rates seem to
decline every year. And I think that perhaps my biggest advice to leaders,
to your government leaders, and to the people in general would be to make
sure to have children to create the new generation. And I think any incentives
that can be done to incent the new generation, to make it easier for
women to have children and to support the children, I think would be very
wise. This is so fundamental and I really can't emphasize that enough. If
you don't have a new generation, there is no new generation. Or with
current birth rates, I think it may be the generations are at birth rates
maybe half of the replacement rate. And what that means is in three generations
the population will be one roughly one tenth of its current size. In three
generations maybe four generations that you're the population will be one tenth of its current
size. So I always want to emphasize this point because it is so basic
and fundamental that if there's not at least a birth rate which is keeping population
constant, then a people will will disappear, disappear, disappear, disappear.
We have a lot of immigration. Somebody says that immigration is important for that
reason. What's your point on that immigrations is coming in Europe and is coming
in America from the south of America, and then you Rope from the south
of the Mediterranean Sea. What do you think about that? Well, I
think one can't depend on other countries for immigration. And in fact, if
you look at say the population worldwide, and this is almost everywhere in the
world, and it seems to be a function of how once a country industrializes,
once the country urbanizes, the population immediately starts to decline. So one
could say, for example, like China could not possibly solve its population with
immigration, because if China is currently tracking to be maybe lose forty percent of
its population every generation, that would be seven hundred million, eight hundred million
people, or roughly seven six seven hundred million people. It's a lot.
Basically, you'd have to have the entire United States immigrate there twice every generation
to simply maintain numbers just for China. So immigration there simply aren't enough numbers
in immigration. And I think there is value to a culture. We don't
want cultures. We don't want Japan to disappear, don't want Italy as a
culture to disappear, we don't want France as a culture to disappear. I
think we have to have maintain this sort of reasonable cultural identity of the various
countries. Well, they simply will not be those countries. Italy is the
people of Italy. The buildings are there, but really what is Italy Italy
is the people of Italy. So I mean, I just think it's And
I speak as someone who is very much, very much an environmentalist. I
believe in having building a sustainable future for the world. I think that there
are very few people who as an individual, who have done more than I
have for to help the environment with electric cars and solar and batteries to create
a sustainable energy future. Because we absolutely need a sustainable energy future. But
there is an aspect of the environmental movement that I think has gone too far.
Really said from you, yes, so said for me. I think
I am objectively one of the world's leading environmentalists in terms of doing things like
I'm an environmentalist who does the talk of action, not talk. I act.
So I feel I can say, as as an environmentalist that the environmentalist
movement has gone too far. And in that if you in the natural extension
of the environmentalist movement, if you go too far, you start to look
at humanity as a bad thing. You start to look at humanity as though
we are a plague on the surface of the earth, as though humanity is
a bad thing. And in fact, there are some people who think and
say explicitly that. In fact, there was on the front page of the
New York Times there was a guy who said, there are eight billion people
on Earth. It would be better if there were none, which is crazy.
Definitely, you told me I joke about that. You told me wants
to joke about the cows and the problem with the cows. You remember that,
Oh yeah, don't worry about the cows. Soelds are fine. Cows
are not going to destroy the environment. Cows are fine. Yes, Oh,
we have a lot of flaws European laws. Again, all the people
who walk to them. It is a big issue for it because it seems
in green issue, but he's a very industrial issue for us. Yeah,
I think farming and cows are not do not have any meaningful effect on the
environment. Yes, underline please, yes, objectively this is true. So
if you say, like, there's really only one thing that matters from an
environmental standpoint for carbon, which is that we are taking billions, eventually trillions
of tons of carbon from very deep with it under the earth and putting transferring
it to the atmosphere and oceans. That's actually really all that matters, is
taking vast amounts of carbon from underground where it's buried and moving it into the
atmosphere by burning it. And if you do that for long enough, eventually
you will get to climate change. Now, I think the climate change alarm
is somewhat overblown in the short term. It's still a concern in the long
term, but I think it's exaggerated in the short term. Great, Now
I have to try to thread the needle here between like what is pragmatic and
what is sensible, what really matters, and what doesn't matter. What really
matters is that over the long term, over the course of the next several
decades, that we gradually reduce how many millions and billions of tons of carbon
that we move from underground to the atmosphere, because we're running sort of a
climate experiment that is dangerous. But I also don't think that I'll think of
it as a fundamental civilizational risk. It's not going to destroy life on Earth,
it's not going to destroy humanity, but it will create hardship if you
change the climate over many decades. So I think my message is like I
think much more pragmatic, and I think correct and sensible, and I don't
think we should demonize oil and gas. I think we should say, look,
that is obviously necessary in the short term and the medium term too,
in it to take several decades to become sustainable. So I think if we're
just, without getting too worried about it, seek to have a sustainable energy
future gradually, then that's what will happen. And so I think that some
of the environmentalists movements is part of what is causing people to lose hope in
the future. So I guess what if I say is that we should have
hope in the future, we should be excited about the future, and we
should both the future we want. What about and you call it the walk
mind? Yes, sure, he's the name you gave to the work mind
illness. What's that virus? Yeah, so so it's coming to Europe.
I have to advise you, Yes, well, this is not something you
should import from America. Please don't import the work mind virus is bad.
So the I mean essentially that to summarize maybe the work mind virus, it
consists of creating very divisive identity politics, so it actually amplifies work virus.
Mind virus, in my view, amplifies racism, amplifies frankly, sexism and
all the isms, and while claiming to do the opposite, it actually divides
people and makes them sort of hate each other, and it makes people hate
themselves. And it's also anti meritocratic. It's not like, it's not merit
based. So you want to have people succeed based on how hard they work
and the talents, not who they are, whether a man, woman,
what race or gender. That stuff is all creating. It's an artificial mental
civil war that is created and it's not And let me say, it's no
fun. Okay, it is like workminde virus and fun are incompatible. It's
no fun in that no joye virus is all about condemning people instead of celebrating
people, like when in the work it just doesn't celebrate. It's all about
condemning and being divisive and being just I think it's just evil frankly, really
yeah, yeah, it's bad, so bad. Yeah, but you get
a lot of problems saying so on your social in Excel. Have this point
of view. You are a good friend of my administration and now they don't
really like you so much for this kind of speech you do in public or
not. I don't know. I mean, I just a very pro human
I'm very pro civilization. I'm in favor of humanity and our collective consciousness,
expanding on Earth and going beyond Earth and being a multiplanet species, space bearing
civilization and being out there among the stars and finding out the nature of the
universe, like all the things that it's that seems like to me and exciting
thing. Something you can get really excited about. Is you're going to get
excited, like we want to have ideas that make you look forward to waking
up in the morning, look forward to the day, look forward to the
future. And so you have to say what excites you about the future,
what moves your heart about the future, what makes you say like yes,
I'm glad about what will happen in the future. That's what we must focus
on. And that's why we have to have a new generation. We've got
to build and we've got to grow. And like I said, we understand
this, understand the nature of this beautiful universe that we find ourselves in and
the meaning of life or even what questions to ask about meaning of life?
Let us explore this wondrous creation and have a good time doing it. That's
my philosophy. Let me go back for a little because I want to ask
you about your perception of Europe as a building, not as people. Because
Europe douce have won a lot of integration of cultures, different cultures and has
a different approach to the immigration. We heard Meloney did a lot on that
with the Remi rama I see in the first line of Albania. What do
you think about this approach of Europe approach as building. I would say,
as an established, well, I should say, like to be clear on
immigration overall, I'm very much in favor of legal immigration. I think that
generally, I think which one should welcome to a country. Anyone who is
willing to work hard and is honest, has high integrity, and will add
to any given country. If somebody is an asset to the country, why
not have them join? That is obviously a great thing to do. So
I think it's good actually to have an increase in legal immigration and a simple
legal with paper, with some approval process, but with a simple requirement that
Look, if somebody is going to add to a country, like we're just
really hard working and high integrity, let them in. I think that's great.
But if there's if it's illegal immigration and there's no filter, well,
how do you know who's coming? And you don't know, So you have
to have some basis for saying somebody should come in or not come in.
And my argument is like it should be a very simple basis. Will they
add to the country, will they be a productive part of the economy,
and do they admire the culture? Do they want to join because of the
culture, Then that's great, But if there's no process for that, then
you don't know. I think least some number of the people that come in
well will not be necessarily and I want to be careful because my words will
be misconstrued. I'm not saying all illegal immigrants are I think probably perhaps most
of them are good, but there will be some. If there's no process
for reviewing, not at all. Then how can you say that everyone who
is a legal immigrant is going to be honest and hard working. You can't
say that. You simply don't know. So I want to be clear.
Top line, pro immigration, but let's increased legal immigration, but we should
stop illegal immigration. I think this is just logical. You have a lot
of company, so that's right. You can drink because I want to do
the list of the company. Yeah, you have five to seven minutes to
do that. I mean, I'm joking with space x X never a link.
So many excess, oh the excees. Just what my favorite letter is.
It's a good please to invest Italy and it's a good place. Please
to invest some of I mean not your money, but they have some investment
from your company. Of the American companies of the I would say competitive companies
in this place. What's your opinion? No, I mean, I think
Italy is an incredible country, incredible culture. I love visiting, I love
the Italian people. I think you guys are amazing. Like so I want
I personally, actually, I want prosperity of Italy and I want the prosperity
of every country. I want the prosperity of humanity as a whole. And
like I said, I want us to have an exciting future where we're fired
up about what's going to happen and really excited. So and I think Italy
is a great place to invest. It's a great it's a great country.
And but I do want to emphasize that I do worry that about the low
birth rate. And if a company is to invest in Italy, they're like,
well, you have to say, like, will there be enough people
to work there? It's a simple question. If the workforce is declining,
then if the workforce is declining, then who will work at the company.
It's simple. If there's no people, there's no people to work. Yeah,
I mean in fifty years, say, but I think it's even sooner
than that though I'm so worried about that is the problem. I feel like
a total Cassandra here, because like I seem to be worried about it much
more than other people. But there just needs to be people. If you
don't make a new generation of people, there is no new generation of people.
So that's it. I know, I'm I'm being real repetitive here,
but I'm just trying to state fact. So and yeah, so it's a
good place to invest. I no, I agree. It's a good place
to invest and a wonderful country. So please make more Italians, is what
I'm saying. You said once that the Internet is the system, is the
now down your world, the never system of humanity? What's it? Yes?
Once to me? Yeah, a long time ago intelligence for your artificially,
if that is a nerver system in difficial intelligence? What's I mean?
Use another metaphor, you asked me, what do I think of artificial intelligence?
Obviously, Well, you can think of artificial intelligence as this is perhaps
the the biggest inflection point in intelligence since Homo sapiens. Artificial intelligence is will
be essentially sort of a new species or is a new species. So I
think one of the biggest challenges if I look at, say, civilizational risk,
the risk to the future of humanity, birth rate is one of them.
If we just don't have kids and dwindle away. That's one which I've
talked a lot about. The other is there's always like potentially nuclear war of
course that kind of thing. Then AI is also an existential risk and we
need to be I think we need to be careful with the advent of AI.
But it is very much it's very much a double edged You can think
of AI as kind of like the magic genie that like digital superintelligence, will
be capable of doing anything, pretty much anything, but he doesn't up any
consciousness. I'm wondering about that. I mean, there is a whole question
of like what is consciousness in fact, So here's like I would say,
I've thought a lot about what is consciousness and where does consciousness arise? To
say, like, because I think in terms of physics, and at least
if physics is true, then we go from a start of the universe where
things are almost entirely hydrogen, and then if you leave the hydrogen out long
enough, eventually it coalesces into stars, and then those stars explode and then
they recondense. So like most of the mass in your body was once at
the center of a star, which is kind of wild billions of years ago,
and so where along the lines of hydrogen to human does consciousness arise?
You get very serious when you speak about that. Yeahs always a real question.
If you leave hydrogen out in the long enough, it starts talking to
itself. Yeah, we are hydrogen talking to itself. How to deal with
that? So, if it is so important, how to deal I mean
laws, personal behavior, how to deal with that digital intelligence? This is
a process. I mean, I think we need to keep a close eye
on artificial intelligence. I mean I'm in favor of some regulatory insights, just
so that there's someone can at least be a referee. Like if you think
of any game, like there's always a referee for a game. For industries
that affect the good of the people, there's there are regulatory agencies that oversee
those industries. Anything that's dangerous is overseen by some kind of referee or regulator.
I think we should have the same thing for AI, just to help
ensure that it is beneficial. The good part of AI is that we are
headed for a future of abundance. So AI and robotics will mean that there
are no shortage of goods and services. There will be goods and services.
If you can think of it, you can have it basically, so this
is quite profound. Like I said, it's the magic genie AI and robotics
will get you anything you want. Now, usually in these sort of fairy
tales about magic genies, it doesn't turn out so well. You have to
be careful what you wish for, even if you wish for our wishes.
So it's just something we should be cautious about. Okay. On the plus
side, it will bring many benefits. Like I said, it will usher
in an age of abundance, so that the positive scenario of AI is that
there's an age of abundance and there are no shortage of goods and services,
that any scarcity that it exists will be only because we define it to be
scarce. So and it just seems to be somewhat of an inevitable thing AI.
So there is that supposedly that Chinese saying about may you live in interesting
times? Well, I think we currently live in the most interesting of times
in all of history right now. So anyway, so my recommendation on AIS,
I think we want some kind of regulatory oversight just to make sure that
it's beneficial AI. Great, we hope. So, and what about what
the governments like, I mean, they are elected by people like Maloney and
this government and the other government, they have any risks or what do you
think about these challenge the executive of the Nations about all these new processes.
So I'm not trying to understand the question what's risk for the government of these
intelligence? Are they any risks? I mean that democracy is finished. Well,
I think there's certainly risks of artificial intelligence affecting voting opinion I suppose,
and manipulating public opinion. So I think there's some risk of AI manipulating the
public. I think so, yeah, okay, but I think probably,
like I said, eighty percent probable that AI is beneficial twenty percent something like
that. I'm always worried because we have a new government is two years,
this government almost two years, and we have a Europe for US is our
artificial intelligence. It seems like artificial intelligence, but it's not very intelligent sometimes
Europe, and so I'm wondering what do you think about the government and about
Europe for US is so important the relation. I understand artifican intelligence in the
future, but in the present we have those constraints that comes from Europe.
What do you think about that? If you have any what do you think
about Italian government which is trying to have a position. I would say a
position, Miloni, I don't know if there's more than a position. You
want me to be more tough than a position? Is okay? What do
you think it's good to have a position in Europe? But to be I
mean, I would say different from a main course of European politics? Do
you mean like country decisions versus EU decisions or decision about green about the politics
immigration of I mean there's a separate question of like I think regulations in Europe,
and there are too many regulations in general. I'm not speaking about se
a case of AI. I think one could look at this as overall a
fundamental function of a stable civilization. The longer that any given civilization is stable
and does not have a big war, the more rules and regulations will accumulate
over time. So rules, regulations, laws there are immortal. They never
die, so but people will die. So if every year more and more
rules, regulations and laws are added, you will eventually make everything illegal.
And you can think of it. Galiver's Travels, where Gulliver if the nation
is gulliver is being tied down by one little regulatory string at a time,
and eventually you have millions of strings, and then the giant can't move.
And so I think there needs to be something where we delete rules, regulations
and laws, because if we keep, if we simply, if all we
do is add them, eventually we will be able to do nothing. Should
I do some question about your companies? Because here are all the young people,
not only the young people from an important Italian party, and they most
of them use the social network, they use X. And then I saw
in the past days that the CEO of this they said, I don't want
to invest any advertising on X, and he's investing, for example, in
the may Die in the Instagram and he said that there are problems of I
don't know which kind of problem they find ons I want child exploitation or yeah,
what's going on where an important investor? Like? Then they said something
so tough on X. What's going on there? Well, I think,
first of all, I think X will be fine, and we are actually
already seeing advertisers return to X. So I guess they were I don't know
if set with something I said or something I don't know, but they advertisers,
I think are the brand advertisers are a little They always worried about their
brand, and maybe I think maybe a bit more than they should be.
But I think it's a short term issue. Like I said, the advertisers,
they sometimes get upset, but then they usually calm down and they return
to advertising. So come on, you know that there's a walk virus over
there? Well, oh yes, I don't want to answer for you.
I know you're right. If we're going to fight the work mind virus,
then the work work mind virus will fight back, and unfortunately, Disney is
deeply infected with the work mind virus. In fact, if you ask an
AI what is the most work company on Earth? It's Disney. But and
you have to say, what would I mean? I think they should be
asking themselves what would Walt Disney think of Disney today? I think he's turning
in his grave. I think he's not happy. Sure, if the namesake
of the company is not happy, that's probably a bad science. Because Walt
Disney, what did he care about? He cared about bringing joy to people's
lives. Het up making wonderful things that children and families could enjoy and he
was created some of the coolest art in the world and stuff that even one
hundred years after it's created, we still remember it and it's still a major
thing. But you have to say, how great was Walt Disney? Was
amazing? But now Disney, at least for now, he's deeply infected with
the work mind virus. I think that will that will change? Yeah,
Oh I hope so yeah, right at that the European Commission they're not investing
on X. You know that maybe they're a little they got the work my
a virus too. Yeah, I don't care. I think so. And
it's like, why are they importing this crazy thing from America. It's like
it's just some thing that was created basically by sort of far left crazy people
in US colleges, and now it's spreading all over the world. And it's
like, like the thing is the work Whinde virus. It's not a message
of joy, it's a message of division. It's not a message of love.
It's a message of hate. And it's like and so I'm like,
like, let's I don't know, I'm in favor of like have a future
that's got more love, more like more and let us build a fun,
exciting future. And the work bind virus is all about condemning one group and
condemning this condemning that it's like and it's also like just being like it just
wants to scold you all the time and treat you like. I don't know
if it wants to be scolded. It's not fun. So anyway, I
think we want to have a like So I guess at its heart, my
concern is that the worklind virus is anti civilizational and of civilization, anti civilization.
If it represents a cost for your company, what should you have a
trade off between the cost of your position and the cost for the company.
What's your choice? And how much is important in your behavior? The free
speech standing, that's the question. I do think free speech is incredibly important
because if people cannot speak their minds, and then we won't have a democracy.
Democracy is the foundation of democracy is freedom of speech. But also saying
something, So is laughing at that because he knows that it's so important for
you. But tell me more about the free speech because here is very important
person here couldn't speech for a lot of people because they were considered with Marvericks
and worse than that, free speech for everybody is important, not just for
the person who say the right things correcxactly no, exactly. Free speech means
that free speech is only relevant. Free speech is only meaningful when if you
allow people you don't like to say things you don't like. So that's how
it's working. That's how you know it's working, because once you start to
censor people you don't like saying things you don't like, it's only a matter
of time before that censorship turns on you. Eventually. Look by the sword,
die by the sword, Look by censorship, diaby censorship bloom, I
got see what you spoke about free speech. You're both Twitter for this free
speech? Do mean just for the free speech, not for the business inside
you both? Yeah? Well, I mean here's the thing. So I
think you have to say, like, if civilization is not strong, if
civilization doesn't grow, then nothing else matters. Profits don't matter. If civilization
collapses, there's no profits, there's no we are not we cannot exist absent
civilization. So sometimes maybe people may say, like, well, is this
an altruistic thing? I mean, I think it's for me, it feels
altruistic. But even if it's even if one is not altruistic, even if
one is very self centered. You have to say, if you simply think
long term, you have to be pro civilization because you cannot exist without civilization.
How important from zero to you escape? From Jill to ten money you
are the breachest person in the world. How is important money for you?
From zero to ten? Zero is the less important? And is that good?
I don't know. I don't want to one or two or something.
Now, come on, no, I mean wols. Well, like the
reason I guess I have what wealth or it's really just shares in the company,
is that I've created these companies. And these companies like SpaceX Tesla is
one hundred and forty thousand jobs direct worldwide. At five times that number,
maybe almost a million jobs when you look at the whole supply chain is what
Tesla has created. And then SpaceX is about fifteen thousand people. And also
like maybe full total supply chain fifty thousand people. So I mean I,
basically, with the help of many talented people, built these companies, and
then the circle these wealth statistics simply they simply add up what the ownership is
in the companies and say Okay, this is a certain amount of money,
but I don't actually have that in money. I have it in stock.
Just it' said that the companies have succeeded. But how was the last launch
of the SpaceX? That'll me something that's question. Please jomind me the last
launch. I see there sitting on the floor. Why are you sitting on
the floor? Are you worried about the hind How was the last launch?
Was you were optimist about your SpaceX? The big Yeah? So we'll starship.
So the exciting thing about Starship is that it's the first rocket design that
could make life multiplanetary, that could enable a self sustaining base on the Moon
and a city on Mars. So because it is it's not just a very
large vehicle, but it is designed for full and rapid reusability. So that
would lower the cost of access to space by I don't know, maybe one
hundred or more. And so and basically, if it's the first rocket that
is capable of building a base on Mars and a base on the Moon,
yes, that's the fat. So there's the great Italian physicist in Rico Fermi.
I'm a big admirer of Fermi, and he had. He was very
good at asking profound questions. And one of his questions, which is called
the Fermi paradise, is where are the aliens? And one of the explanations
is that, and perhaps I think the one that I think is most appears
to be most accurate is that consciousness is extremely rare. That people often ask
me, how do I know about aliens or something like that, ask that
a lot. And the crazy thing is that I've seen no evidence of aliens
whatsoever. This means that I think, most likely, at least in this
part of a galaxy, we are the only consciousness that exists. And so
you can think of human consciousness really as like a tiny candle in a vast
darkness, and we must do everything we can to ensure that the candle does
not go out. Great, we can finish with that. We can finish
with that. Okay, we can finish with this. Oh and so so
it's worth reading about the Fermi paradox. And because people have thought very hard
about this because they are these because one of the things is like, well,
maybe they are these great filters, and these civilizations don't pass these filters.
One of the filters is do we become a multiplanet species or not.
If we do not become a multiplanet species, then eventually, at some point
something will happened to the planet. Either it will be man made or it
will be something natural like a meteor or like whatever killed the dinosaurs for example. So