WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:09.400 Hello everybody, this is another episode of React Round Up. We have our 2 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:15.839 panelist today's Leslie con Wine He y'all, and Thomas Aila. Hello. And 3 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:19.199 our guest today is Monica Lent. How are you doing, Monica, I'm 4 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:23.039 doing great. Thanks so much for having me. That's great, so Mondica. 5 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.160 First of all, we would like to know a little bit about your 6 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:30.519 background. How come did you get involved with software engineering? Great question, 7 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.719 So to begin, I kind of started a bit of an untraditional way. 8 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:40.119 Let's say my dad was an electrical engineer, so I kind of always grew 9 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:45.560 up around computers. And thanks to looking at Internet archive recently, I found 10 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:50.280 my first ever domain name, which dates back to when I was nine years 11 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.479 old. Wow. Yeah, it's a work of art. You can tell 12 00:00:55.600 --> 00:01:00.679 that I was taking word art and bringing it into Microsoft Paint and then turning 13 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:04.000 that into an image map. I'm so excited all of a sudden. Yeah, 14 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:12.079 it was honestly worse than I remembered it. So yeah, that's kind 15 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:17.840 of how I got started, like learning HTML and CSS, making my neopets 16 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:23.439 page amazing. Then eventually I went to university and I actually studied Latin and 17 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:30.120 Ancient Greek. But yeah, I graduated and didn't really have a plan for 18 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.920 how to use these things. Didn't want to become a grad student, And 19 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.680 yeah, keeping my developer job that I kind of started in university was well 20 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:46.719 a pretty convenient fallback. So that's how I inadvertently actually turned my childhood hobby 21 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.239 into the career that I have been doing now for more than ten years. 22 00:01:49.480 --> 00:02:00.280 That's funny. So you start studying legacy languages, the oldest languages of them 23 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:06.599 all for the language. Oh my god, that's a yeah. I liked 24 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:10.360 in your talk that to say that your first job was the student web master 25 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:15.919 role exactly. You talked about like the has at the same time student and 26 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:21.400 master in the name, which is really cool. I love it. Yeah, 27 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.000 definitely. I was nineteen years old when I got that job. It 28 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.479 was pretty funny because they asked me, like how much experience I have. 29 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.520 I was like, well, I started PHP when I was like fourteen, 30 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:38.039 so I guess I have five years of experience senior. They didn't laugh at 31 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:43.360 me openly, I don't know, but I was completely serious when I told 32 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:51.080 them that that's amazing, that's really good, and today you're working at so 33 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:55.000 I actually just quit the job that I've had for the last five years. 34 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:59.599 So I was working at sum up, which is a fintech company based in 35 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:02.080 Britain. In So I was there for five years and I worked as the 36 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:07.360 lead front end engineer, and there I grew the team from being like basically 37 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:13.680 me to more than fifteen people located in this run end team worldwide. But 38 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.240 I left to build my own startup. So that's what I have been doing 39 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.280 for a grand total of a week and a half. Congratulations, Thank you 40 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:29.560 very much. Tell us more about it. Great question. So it's a 41 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.479 bit of a tricky one because I think sometimes when I talk to developers about 42 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:38.159 it, it's like it's a marketing tool. So marketing is kind of like 43 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.199 a little bit to a lot of developers when you talk about it, it's 44 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.879 not maybe as sexy as I don't know the latest library. But in essence, 45 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:51.879 it's an analytic tool design for bloggers. So you might know that some 46 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:58.439 bloggers write articles that are intended to convert people through links to third party e 47 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.479 commerce shops, for example, going to Amazon or booking dot com or something 48 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:05.000 like that, and then they earn a commission. This is called affiliate marketing. 49 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:11.960 So in essence, the application is an analytics tool specifically designed around that 50 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.240 use case. So typically bloggers are not like ultra technical, or they are 51 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.639 technical in a way that's very specific to blogging. They know a lot about 52 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:25.800 WordPress plugins, optimizing their theme, things like that, but it's not really 53 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.439 the same kind of stuff that you would know if you were I don't know 54 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:33.000 a product manager or a business analyst who uses all of the traditional tools. 55 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:39.199 Plus those tools are too expensive. So in essence, we kind of take 56 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:43.319 all of the kind of things you might do in Google analytics or hot jar 57 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.839 or optimize lead, these types of things, and then we bundle them together 58 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.079 in a use case strip and analytics tool around affiliate marketing. That's really cool. 59 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.360 I love the overall theme of taking all this insane power that we have 60 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.319 in technology and making it accessible and hyper focused at a specific kind of use 61 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:09.399 case and focusing on their particular needs and in a way that makes the most 62 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.079 sense to that specific audience. I love that kind of thing. Yeah. 63 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.879 Absolutely, It's really interesting because you have so much data. I recently calculated 64 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.360 it and we are collecting over two and a half million events every day just 65 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:27.920 from our beta testers. So this is a lot of data. But the 66 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:33.560 question that's really hard is how do you make this useful to people? So 67 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.480 it's a bit of a process of discovery for myself as well, because you 68 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.319 just have no idea what kind of interesting correlations are waiting in that data, 69 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.000 honestly, until you start coding some graphs and you start to see where it 70 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:50.560 takes you. Yeah, this is Yeah, it's really interesting because I think 71 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:56.720 that at least from the world maybe twenty or thirty years ago, we were 72 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.759 coming from from an age where we did not have enough data, right, 73 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:04.040 did not have enough information. So it's like the age of the amazing libraries, 74 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:06.480 or you would go into a library and it's like, oh my god, 75 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:10.680 now I have all this information. This is awesome. Today it's kind 76 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.079 of the opposite moment, where there's so much information out there and now we 77 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:20.600 need to like try to get the wisdom and the knowledge from the amount of 78 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:25.040 like try to understand what is noise and what is not right m h. 79 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:30.360 It's it's a crazy absolutely, and especially when the audience that's consuming this data 80 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:35.360 is not necessarily interested in spending all of their time digging through it, right, 81 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:41.319 They're busy people, business owners, Right, So you can't just leave 82 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.000 them to their own devices to hunt through things. You have to really like 83 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:48.800 surface that in an actionable way, and that is something I'm learning every day. 84 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:54.600 Nice. Okay, so I have one question for you related to to 85 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:59.120 your react fillin talk. First of all, let me say it's one of 86 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.879 the best thoughts tech talks I've seen, like at least in the past year. 87 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:08.240 It's really good. It's really good, Thank you very much. It's 88 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:14.279 really interesting, Like when you hear someone talking about like actually building software, 89 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:17.160 I mean talking about the problems that the way you were talking, I don't 90 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.600 know, it's really good. First of all, would before we go into 91 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:25.920 the tails of that talk, I would like to understand like from you now 92 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:30.000 that you're building something from scratch, you we're like the only dav for a 93 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:34.879 while. Maybe it's the only DV up until this day. Maybe someone is 94 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.839 helping you. I don't know, Like what's the difference when you were talking 95 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:44.360 about when you think about building software in a company that has fifteen hundred people 96 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.800 and a company that has one person. Does it changes the way you think 97 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:54.680 about things? Of course, I think not only the fact that the technology 98 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.519 is different, but of course also the fact that you have different needs and 99 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:01.439 level of stability as a business. Right, So of course, when you're 100 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.120 in an early stage business, you don't really know if the code you're writing 101 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.120 is going to be around in six months. You don't really know whether you're 102 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:15.920 going to end up becoming profitable, and of course that puts a different level 103 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.800 of consideration of where to invest your effort. Definitely. But of course, 104 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:26.519 on the other hand, what I find really interesting so far about building something 105 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.720 myself. I'm also working on this with my boyfriend who's my co founder, 106 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.000 who's also a software engineer. It's interesting because you know where you want to 107 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.840 invest in quality, and you know where you shouldn't be investing because that would 108 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.879 be a waste of time. For example, one thing that makes the analytics 109 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:50.440 application we're building unique is that it can scan an existing website to find affiliate 110 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:54.919 links using an algorithm, And by algorithm I mean a fancy function, right, 111 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:01.240 But this fancy function, you better believe it is the best tested piece 112 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:05.960 of code you can imagine. It has so many tests because if it doesn't 113 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.919 work, it means that people aren't actually finding the thing that they need to 114 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:13.679 track. And it can be really easy to say Okay, you know, 115 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.519 I just want to get this working fast, But when something gets more complicated, 116 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.159 you realize, really, what's the value in testing? And on the 117 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.240 other hand, the user interface has pretty few tests, I would say, 118 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.519 and I think that's okay, because honestly, we don't even know if the 119 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.480 UI is totally good, We're going to need to change it. So at 120 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.879 the end of the day, I think it's about finding that balance and understanding 121 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.320 really what context am I in in order to make those appropriate decisions that make 122 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.240 sense for the business and also for realistically how long is that software going to 123 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:54.320 need to be maintainable. It's like the challenge of finding a connection to the 124 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:00.000 ultimate value, like what is the point, what is the purpose? Why 125 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.480 why are we doing this? So often developers get so caught up on well, 126 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.879 this is the task right in front of me, and don't think about 127 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.639 the bigger picture, how it connects, how it fits in, how it 128 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:15.279 actually connects to some outcome in the real world that anybody cares about. So 129 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:20.919 kind of that valuing hierarchy gets lost, and that seems to be where a 130 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.679 lot of especially like junior devs, especially myself when I was a junior de 131 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.679 just like going all in on like I'm going to make this one random thing, 132 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.360 the investing all your time and effort without like getting permission to do that, 133 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.879 or getting like really defensive like I want to do this really really high 134 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.240 quality, or I spent three weeks on this thing and they were expecting you 135 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.320 to spend three hours on that thing. And then there's just like there's that 136 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.120 miscommunication that everybody just has different assumptions, assumes that everybody's on the same page, 137 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:52.600 and then there's just like emotions get in, Like how do you deal 138 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:58.320 with with those kind of unspoken assumptions that just kind of get lost in the 139 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.159 weeds. Distilling that down a little bit, right, I mean, Monica, 140 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.559 Like, now you're in this position where you sort of get to call 141 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.519 the shots. You're making this decision, so you sort of inherently know what 142 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.799 are the things that are worth spending the time on, what are things that 143 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.440 are probably going to get refactored, you know, going down that path, 144 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.159 So putting yourself back maybe in that first student webmaster job or any of the 145 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.919 jobs you've held in between, right, how do you sort of distill get 146 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:28.080 that information from the product owner or whoever is running the project to be able 147 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.120 to make some of those decisions as maybe just a developer on the team. 148 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:37.399 Yeah, that's isn't that the age old question? Where do I actually invest 149 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.440 my time? To be honest, I think this is something that it's a 150 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.960 so contextual and b it comes with just so much experience and also so much 151 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.320 failure, right that it takes the failure in doing it wrong, I think 152 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.919 in order to actually recognize all right, I've actually been through this before. 153 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.000 So at the end of the day, I think it just comes down to 154 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:07.399 being able to evaluate if I mess this up, how much is it really 155 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.320 going to hurt me? And there are a couple of places I think you 156 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.279 can really focus that. For example, if something is very business critical, 157 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.559 for example, is the business going to lose money if this stops working. 158 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.440 This is why it makes a lot of sense for us to be investing tests 159 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.480 in our onboarding flows right when people sign up, anytime they're putting in payment 160 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.720 information, all of those critical pieces that come together for their very first experience. 161 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.240 This warrants a whole lot of testing and to some degree a little bit 162 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.559 of paranoia, you know, like if it goes wrong, especially at certain 163 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.519 times of the year, I can say working at sum Up when it came 164 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.200 to the end of the year, right before Christmas. Of course, you 165 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:56.440 can imagine a lot of people are getting ready for an increased sale season, 166 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.840 right and you it just makes sense to be more cautious at that point in 167 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.440 time. I know there's like a lot of this talk about don't be afraid 168 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:09.840 to deploy on Fridays, you know, but really like the question is does 169 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:11.759 that make sense for you or not? You know, what kind of impact 170 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.039 is this going to have on your users if you have downtime on a Friday. 171 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:20.000 Otherwise it's just you know, it's inflated confidence and it's not putting your 172 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.399 users first. If you ask me, that's very interesting point. I may 173 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.320 sound like a broken record, but I say this on time. I think 174 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.039 that the single most thing that works is skin in the game. If it 175 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.320 hurts on you, and if you get the benefits, if it goes, 176 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:43.399 if it's done correctly, then most probably you're making like better decisions then. 177 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:50.200 And I think that this is a big challenge with larger companies is that the 178 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.440 people actually doing the work when the company is still large, they're very like 179 00:13:54.519 --> 00:14:00.279 detached from the mission and probably at this point in your life. Now you 180 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:05.639 cannot even afford to be detached from the mission since now it's your like main 181 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.279 source of income or it is right, It's like, so when people say 182 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:13.480 that, don't deploy on Friday, I would say, like, I don't 183 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.720 know, Like what does does Monica say about like deploying day, because she's 184 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.000 the one who really get hurt if anything goes wrong. Sometimes we talk here 185 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:28.080 about should we let people deploy anytime? This is a good question, like 186 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.360 should should deploy be like anytime deploy? I think it should be any time 187 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.039 deploy if your team has an on call thing, and and if you deploy 188 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:43.840 something bad and goes home, you need topic of on call is so controversial. 189 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.840 Should engineers be on call? Should they not be on call? You 190 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.879 hear people who are saying, Okay, I did an on call job, 191 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.440 and now you know, I never want to do that again. I think 192 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:00.120 that's totally okay. You know, like if you don't want to be on 193 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.519 call, then you work somewhere that doesn't require people to be on call. 194 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.519 But at the same time, it's like, well, if you do want 195 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:11.919 to deploy any time of the day, then that's like a responsibility and I've 196 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.519 definitely seen situations where the engineers, you know, they want the keys to 197 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:20.919 the kingdom, but they don't necessarily want to be responsible for something going wrong. 198 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:28.799 Responsibility. I mean, it's like, okay, well maybe you can 199 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.519 blame this on QA or someone in operations, and that's kind of like, 200 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.639 I don't know, it's like the classic deflection. And you know, Frankly, 201 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.440 if I was in this position and I heard that kind of thing, 202 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.600 I would say, Okay, then we go back to a release schedule. 203 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:48.639 If you're not going to have enough empathy for the users to you know, 204 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.799 stop playing ping pong and come fix the problem, then yeah, maybe there 205 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.200 is that missing maturity. And I mean you just have to recognize that. 206 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.159 Yeah. I think it's partly just not being held accountable, and so much 207 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:08.200 of our industry and related industries, smart people or people who like to think 208 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.840 of themselves as smart, make things seem more complicated than they really are so 209 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:18.639 that they can get away with stuff and kind of hide their shenanigans under a 210 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:25.440 veneer of ah, it's too complicated, you couldn't understand it. I have 211 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:32.200 all these great reasons for why I get to do whatever I want narcissistic design. 212 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:37.679 I think the a there's a talk right about Oh yeah, this one 213 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:45.559 is one of my favorites. Yeah, it's the Closure Stewart something. Yes, 214 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.679 yes, it's great. Yeah, that talks about making yourself so essential 215 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:56.279 in the company you work in that they can never fire you. Yeah, 216 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:02.759 yes, this is really great. All right, So let's give one more 217 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.119 step back to the direct feel and talk. You talk about architecture, right, 218 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:14.279 software architecture, and when you start the more practical part of your talk, 219 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:19.680 you talk about essentially constraints. Right, So when when you write software 220 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:26.680 and and you want to to make sure that you have a good lifetime in 221 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.000 your software, it's not going to become a big ball of mud like that 222 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:36.359 anything is super costly. You need to create concerts. Could you go a 223 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.240 little bit further on that, explain a little bit that concept to us, 224 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:45.960 Yeah, for sure. So the idea is that instead of thinking about architecture 225 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:51.839 as something you know, super abstract that people who don't write code anymore are 226 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:56.720 responsible for and then the rest of us just live with their decisions, instead, 227 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:03.519 think about architecture as enabling constraints, so intentionally constraining the way that we're 228 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.680 working. I mean you can also think about it as best practices under another 229 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:12.480 name. But putting these constraints in place, and we basically trade in the 230 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.680 fact that we don't exercise all of our powers that we could have as developers, 231 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:23.839 and instead we pick ways to do less and also end up with code 232 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:27.880 that is safer to run, going to last a lot longer, going to 233 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:33.039 lead to fewer bugs, and so forth. So one like really common example 234 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.759 of enabling constraints is driving in a car. When you drive in a car, 235 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:41.319 the reason you feel safe to drive super fast down the street is probably 236 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.640 because there are some rules to the road, right, there are some lines, 237 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.559 I mean, maybe there's even a police officer that's going to pull you 238 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.519 over if you squit up, right, Maybe that's the ci So you know, 239 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:56.960 there are things that we use in the real world to constrain ourselves for 240 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.559 the sake of safety and speed, and software development is really no different than 241 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.680 that. And so it's yeah, that's really the main concept. How can 242 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.200 you give away some of the things that we used to do, you know, 243 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.519 whether this is just you know, making an enormous mess of the dependencies 244 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:18.759 in our code and instead putting structure in place and enforcing that structure. How 245 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:23.559 can you essentially do that in a way that's actually maintainable, especially on a 246 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:29.359 larger team, a team where not everybody sitting in the same room. Yeah, 247 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.440 it's such a powerful concept. I've been learning about this recently. It 248 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.880 kind of goes down to the kind of the psychological need for certainty. You 249 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.799 know, we if we don't have a certain level of certainty and stability, 250 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:47.400 then we have a constant feeling of anxiety. If we have certainty, if 251 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.279 we know what's going to happen, at least, you know, in certain 252 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:53.920 areas, we can feel comfortable and confident. And when you're feeling that level 253 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:59.359 of certainty, you can move really really quickly because you know that chaos isn't 254 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.400 coming at you certain ways. You know, if everybody drives on the right 255 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.839 side of the road, you can go a lot faster because you don't have 256 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:11.039 to worry about someone coming at you. And applying that to programming I've gotten 257 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.680 into. I was very much on the other side of that argument for most 258 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.720 of my career of just like valuing freedom to an extreme, and I would 259 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.640 kind of rationalize it of like, well, we want we can't imagine what 260 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.279 future possibilities we want to enable, so we don't want to paint ourselves into 261 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:32.640 a corner, which my favorite saying back then. But what I wasn't realizing 262 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.319 is that by adding all this flexibility, I was making it literally impossible to 263 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.839 test all of the different constraint by handling any kind of input, I was 264 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.960 making it impossible to have certainty that I'm using this thing correctly. So if 265 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:48.640 you accidentally use it wrong, you're not going to get any errors. You're 266 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.559 not going to get any warnings because the API that it was designing just like 267 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.039 assumed that you knew what you were doing and you always did everything perfectly, 268 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:02.359 Like no, if you constrain things and be like, immediately throw a warning 269 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.039 in somebody's face. Did you did something weird? Did you do that on 270 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.039 purpose? Or was that a mistake? Lets you move so much faster, 271 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.559 which is why I love you know. The mutuols guys kind of, I 272 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:19.000 guess folks were most of the people involved in creating like React at the beginning, 273 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:26.440 and the mutuals started off as being very anti error messages. It was 274 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:33.119 very it was very easy to shoot yourself on the foot and react. Thankfully, 275 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.240 it got a lot of wisdom from the Facebook people who had been around 276 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.599 the block a few times and were like, let's have very very strict warnings, 277 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.519 very very easy to know when you've made a mistake. And I love 278 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.279 how React does that at an API level, but I love how you're bringing 279 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:53.200 that and thinking about that at as at a much higher level, not just 280 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.440 at API level, but as like the architecture of an entire system, and 281 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:03.680 how an entire company of things can apply that concept to move faster overall. 282 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.200 One thing I find interesting is that I think a lot of developers early in 283 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:15.720 their career tend towards okay, we need to document everything. Like if we 284 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:22.039 don't have documentation for absolutely everything, every single product requirement or every single thing 285 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:25.440 in the system, I mean I definitely did that, then how can we 286 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.720 possibly know what's going on? And the interesting thing is like, when you 287 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.480 get bigger than that, you know you can. Of course, you can 288 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:38.279 hire technical writers, you can spend a lot of time doing documentation, and 289 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:45.319 documentation is important, but the amount of certainty that you get from automating as 290 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:51.079 much of that would be documentation as possible. It's so much more friendly, 291 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:53.640 you know, to onboard new people for example, and as you said, 292 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.799 to give them, you know, real time feedback. Right. So, 293 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:03.160 one example that I discuss in the talk is about forbid independency tests, and 294 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.880 this is something that can tell people you know, you're violating our architecture constraints, 295 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.839 and it can happen in like just a couple of minutes after they push 296 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:15.759 their code. This is like so much more resilient than relying that someone who's 297 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:25.400 super good at reading all of the like imports inside your pull request is totally 298 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.799 going to find that that one relative import, you know, is missing a 299 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.680 couple of dot dots to bring it to the right place. I don't know, 300 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:37.160 there's no reason not to put as much of your constraints into automation into 301 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:41.480 code as possible, because it takes that burden, you know, off of 302 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:47.359 people's shoulders. You'll also talk a little bit in the talk about favoring copying 303 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.640 and pasting over dependencies, which I think can be a little bit of a 304 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:56.039 I don't know, scary controversial statement. Can you tell us a little bit 305 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:00.559 more about that approach and why maybe that constraint is actually applause? Yeah, 306 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:07.200 this is definitely something where you have two camps of people like after I give 307 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.759 this talk, you have the cancer people who are like, thank you, 308 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.920 someone finally said it. And then you have the other camps of people who 309 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:19.240 are just like, I feel so dirty, you know, And it's like, 310 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.799 okay, well, you know. Software isn't there just to make you 311 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.440 feel good about yourself. It's to do things right. It's too value perform 312 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:32.880 some kind of a function hopefully make people's lives a little bit better, easier, 313 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.519 or something like that. So, in essence, the reason I talk 314 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:42.559 about potentially deciding to copy and paste code over introducing an implicit dependency is the 315 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:48.680 fact that sometimes when you create an abstraction and you bind together two pieces of 316 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:56.240 code through that abstraction, it often happens that this binding together ends up creating 317 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:02.200 code that is more brittle than it would have been otherwise. So, for 318 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.880 example, let's say you have two pages in your React app and they're both 319 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:11.680 using the same like super amazing date picker component, and this day picker component 320 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.599 is aware of tons of things happening inside of your app. But what happens 321 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.400 when on one page you want to introduce the hour picker and on the other 322 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.200 page you want to introduce I don't know, some kind of schedule picker, 323 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.160 I don't know. These things can start to diverge over time. And what's 324 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:33.079 interesting to me is that as soon as you put a component in the shared 325 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:40.559 folder, it will almost never ever leave. So people are afraid to remove 326 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:42.319 it, right because they're like, Okay, someone might depend on this, 327 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:47.799 and you know, I don't want to upset anybody, so they put it 328 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.880 there. And then over time this component starts to become very specialized. So 329 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:57.119 instead of working in all kinds of scenarios because it contains so much business logic, 330 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.519 it starts to work only in the those two specific places you're using it. 331 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.119 So you have these if statements, you know, like where in my 332 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.680 application you're passing in some kind of like your context. You know, if 333 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.039 I'm on the sign up I got to do that. If I'm on I 334 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:22.440 don't know the account screen, I need to do something different users, it's 335 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.559 like use the mess Yeah. Then you just keep adding them, right, 336 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:29.720 you just keep adding more if statements every time, because that's the model. 337 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.680 Friend is sign friend is time components, I call them. Yeah, And 338 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:38.559 what's funny is like, you know you'll make a change and depending on how 339 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:41.240 your app is set up, and how your team is set up, you 340 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.279 can make another team very unhappy with you very quickly, right, because I 341 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:52.880 mean so much of like software is it's you know, less about code and 342 00:26:52.960 --> 00:27:00.079 more about people, and those kind of decisions tend to have effects on the 343 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.519 team. And you can really see how this puts stress on a lot of 344 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:10.519 teams, especially in front end applications that are oftentimes you know, semi monolithic. 345 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.640 Right. Yeah, I've been a big fan of the copy paste dependency 346 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.119 thing, but I've also seen it go south. For example, Like I 347 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.480 know you're not talking about like microdependencies like taking parts of loadash and embedding it 348 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.440 into your source code because of things like security updates and stuff like that, 349 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:33.359 but constraining that too app specific things. I think that makes a lot of 350 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:38.920 sense to think about going south. It's like problems are going to happen no 351 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:45.319 matter what, But where will it be easier to fix if something goes wrong? 352 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.920 Right? So this is one consideration, and that's one point to copy 353 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.400 and paste. I think I usually like to think about whenever I see shared 354 00:27:53.440 --> 00:28:00.279 code, you need to ask the question like did business did my use is 355 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.640 asked for it to be shared right, is this only shared because it was 356 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:10.720 like similar code? Or does like did this need to be shared because of 357 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:14.480 the design? Right? If you're not talking to to a tech person, 358 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:19.599 So if this should not be shared because of the business needs or because of 359 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:25.200 our users' needs, I stop calling it shared code and I call it coupled 360 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:30.160 code. This is coupled Oh that's yeah, you know, like this is 361 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.839 this is this is a bad thing. Sis, it's a bad thing. 362 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.720 Even if they do the same thing today, most probably with time, they're 363 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.240 gonna they're gonna split, and it's going to generate a problem for us. 364 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.559 So there's nothing wrong with coupling code, just in the same way there's nothing 365 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:51.279 wrong with coupling humans. Like the humans have been coupling for a while. 366 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:55.720 You just have to know what you're getting into. Are you are you forming 367 00:28:55.720 --> 00:29:00.359 a relationship that's permanent or are you just kind of pals hanging out out for 368 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.599 a couple of days. Are you tightly coupling something permanently, or are you 369 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.920 just kind of adjacent. You also don't want to think too far ahead, 370 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.440 right, You don't want to be marrying this person in your head when you're 371 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.279 just coupling up. You know for a while, right, so you also 372 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.400 have to sort of think about what are your needs in that moment and making 373 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.559 sure that you're not, you know, at checking prematurely or trying to share 374 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.640 code and when it's not really doesn't really make sense. Yeah, my favorite 375 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:33.400 software book is the from John Ulster House, The Philosophy of Software Design. 376 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.160 I also had sometimes in the picks here we're doing a book club here at 377 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.200 Compass now. He says that one of the biggest source of complexities in the 378 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:48.559 code base is dependencies. Dependencies in the most like simple way of thinking about 379 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.000 it, It's like, whenever I change a piece of my code, I 380 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:56.400 need to think about another piece of my code, consider it, or even 381 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.559 change it. Whenever this happens, we have a dependency between two places. 382 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.480 The more dependencies I have, the more complex the code is. And that's 383 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:07.759 it. Like in Generate's cognitive lobe, whenever I need to learn a lot 384 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:12.559 of things before change anything, or I have change amplification, which means like 385 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:17.759 to change one thing, I need to change in fourteen different places. Yes, 386 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.759 or even no one knows because we don't know all the dependencies. That's 387 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.640 why I love react hooks so much. And why I loved relay so much. 388 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:33.160 When you're the co locating all inter tightly coupled things. You know, 389 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.640 if you're married, you should probably live together. You know. If your 390 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:41.240 code is absolutely coupled together, it should probably be in the same file, 391 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:47.400 or be in the same bolder, be in the same rebo. It's funny, 392 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:52.920 but I love like the relay components that define here's the graph ql that 393 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.720 is needed for just this component, and that's it. Or and here is 394 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.079 the all of the code that goes together, and that's it. Nothing else 395 00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.519 depends on this. It depends on all of it together or not at all. 396 00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:11.960 It's not randomly strewn across the entire world just nightmares. Definitely. That's 397 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:17.359 also something I need to slightly change. The topic which I love about working 398 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:22.400 in pipescript. That's kind of connected to that. It's that and when you 399 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.799 have code that depends on other code, it is you know, something that 400 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:30.000 fails really really early and tells you, Okay, you didn't realize you were 401 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.079 using this somewhere else, and yeah, you don't even need to write to 402 00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.359 the file in order to get that feedback. That you love me to change 403 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.599 that would have you know, broken somewhere in your application. And this has 404 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:48.680 been a huge lifesaver working on an analytics app that is like so ultra you 405 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.279 know, data heavy and being able to like share types between front end code 406 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.279 and back end code. I couldn't imagine doing it without it. Yeah, 407 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:02.920 just like that's such an undervalued concept of just having like I totally disrespected types 408 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:05.920 back in the day. I was, you know, I was kind of 409 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:09.160 from the Ruby camp, anti Java, no type. But just like the 410 00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:15.240 power and the freedom and the speed you can get when basically an entire class 411 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:22.720 of future problems goes away instantly, when you know for sure high certainty. 412 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.759 Huh, as soon as you type a character that you just screwed something up, 413 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:34.519 got these two files married unbeknownst to you. Now they they're permanently attached, 414 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:37.039 Like okay, wait, back that up. They're just they like to 415 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.839 see other files they're not ready to, right. I mean, type systems 416 00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:45.759 are also a great example of enabling constraints, right, because you don't just 417 00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:52.799 get to reassign your variable to absolutely any other type it's gonna complain. I 418 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.960 mean, of course you have ways that you can suppress the type system, 419 00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:01.000 but in general, you know, it's it's an awesome way to put limits 420 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:07.119 in your code that ultimately give you so much security and confidence going forward. 421 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:15.319 Yeah, but how do you deal with the situations where like this constraint usually 422 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:20.160 make us happy ninety five percent of the time. How do you deal with 423 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.799 those five percent of the time where typescript is just making your life miserable? 424 00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:30.000 Is it something that with experience and just learn how to like, yep, 425 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:34.599 that's life or I mean, I definitely can't tell you that I am a 426 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:38.640 typescript expert, like I am learning typescript every day. I mean just yesterday 427 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:43.839 I was using reduce and I forgot to return and I spent so much time 428 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.440 wondering, why does it think that my thing is void? You know? 429 00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.759 And sometimes it just takes a bit of rubber ducking to realize that you know 430 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.960 what's going on. So I'm not going to like, yeah, sit here 431 00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.359 and pretend that I know. You know, I am like the source of 432 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.960 wisdom on typescript. But I think it has to depend a lot on what 433 00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.000 is your situation. So here we knew like, Okay, I'm going to 434 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:15.079 be building an analytics application, I'm doing so much data crunching and if it 435 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.280 goes wrong. I mean, this is data that people are using to make 436 00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.119 decisions that affect their income, so it's really important that this data is accurate. 437 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:29.320 But probably I don't know, maybe if I was building something that was 438 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:35.119 less like less impactful, or maybe you know, it was not so focused 439 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.920 around data, then I might not choose to use Typescript. Although these days, 440 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.199 I don't know. The autocompletion and everything is something that's I get confused 441 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:51.079 when I open a regular JavaScript file and like nothing happens when I you know, 442 00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.199 I'm just like, oh, this is so irritating. I don't know. 443 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:58.480 Apart from configuring build tools, which is probably my least favorite thing about 444 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:02.400 software development, I think it's you're the only one everybody else loves it. 445 00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:08.000 I hate that. It's like my number one hatred. Like Webpack. It's 446 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:12.840 like, because I went into management, I wasn't coding a lot, and 447 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.800 so Webpack released several new versions since I stopped being an individual contributor, and 448 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.320 I felt like every time I needed Webpack for whatever side project, I'm just 449 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.920 like, oh, my goodness, I need to go look up what it 450 00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:30.719 What even is the latest Webpack version? And what what's different? And how 451 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:34.880 many you know, freaking files do I need to have my web pack? 452 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:43.800 Yeah, it's gotten so much simpler, still pretty powerful tools. It's complicated. 453 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.519 Yeah, building tools are one of those things that they almost need to 454 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.880 be a little bit complicated because of the domain. Domain is a little bit 455 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.679 complicated. And since you only touch like every two months, it seems that 456 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:59.679 you never learn, like I just you just do it enough to hate it. 457 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.079 Yeah, it's it's it's so crazy. Like if I if I did 458 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:07.519 maybe web pac configurations as a day job, like eight hours a day, 459 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.320 maybe I would maybe it would be like really good. But like we only 460 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.960 touch it like every I don't know every and never. Yeah, projects are 461 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:22.119 create react app. Yeah that's a that's a good one. So I have 462 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:28.000 an example here here Compassly we use a gRPC to communicate between the services, 463 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:32.280 right so, and we use it to use a push shrift before, so 464 00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:38.840 all our products are typed in a push shrift. It's really interesting because you're 465 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:43.159 going to create a services, you create a push strift definition. It creates 466 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:45.960 everything for you, like clients, you just need to to fill in the 467 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:52.519 gaps of the service. It really makes things really well. It's super fast. 468 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:57.760 But the type system sometimes it's like, oh my god, like I 469 00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.840 had a service, you know, when you turn adjacent and like watch your 470 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.360 return. You want to be the key, you know, you don't want 471 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:09.000 to make like an array. You want to be like each key is ID 472 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:13.800 and then I have an object. Those simple things that we do in JavaScript 473 00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.760 all the time, you just can't do that with a thrift definition. And 474 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.719 that is the moment where I was like, Okay, so this is the 475 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.119 zen moment. The interface is not going to be exactly the way you want, 476 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:30.199 the way you think it's perfect. It's a little bit like move but 477 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:39.599 you're but you're like having a lot of benefits from because everybody is using it. 478 00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.559 So that's what I think about typescript today. Like sometimes typescript is really 479 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.360 I think it you reach those edge cases that it makes things ten times more 480 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.440 complicated than before. But the fact that you're using everything and it's it's giving 481 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:59.679 like all those benefits, I think it's worth it. But sometimes, yeah, 482 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.320 it's one of these things where I think sometimes when it depends, sometimes 483 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.840 it's just a pain, right. But on the other hand, I think 484 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.440 sometimes when you have a constraint in place and people don't like it. It's 485 00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.760 sometimes more of a matter of ego or control, you know, where you 486 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.679 just kind of want to have it the way you want it. I think 487 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.360 that's also what happened a lot with Prettier. Right there, are you know, 488 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:28.840 just a couple of people out there lurking that vote occasionally on these polls 489 00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.559 in Twitter. You wonder who are they the ones that are like, I 490 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:36.320 don't want Prettier and I will never use it, you know, I just 491 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:37.880 hate it. And you're like, I don't know what happens to you, 492 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:43.760 like what went wrong? Most of the time, I think, you know, 493 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.920 it comes down to this is my abstraction. This is like my way 494 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:52.880 of formatting code. And I think you have to be careful that when you 495 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:57.880 design these constraints in your application that you do what you can to keep your 496 00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:02.719 ego out of it. So using these kind of standards is super important because 497 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:07.239 you can also have people and I have seen this, who think, Okay, 498 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.719 I'm gonna build my framework on top of the framework. Everyone's gonna love 499 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:21.400 so productive. And the reality is developers hate other developers abstractions, right, 500 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:24.280 I mean, they're the worst. Your first use them, You're like this 501 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:30.039 sucks, and then you write your own so the next person has to use 502 00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:35.960 it. Yeah, I think, I don't know, it's the endless cycle. 503 00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:40.320 I think a lot a lot of these things are so useful though, 504 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:45.400 to expose kind of a lot of that drama that's kind of boiling under the 505 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.519 surface of like if you're searching for jobs and you find you're interviewing it a 506 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:53.679 place and somebody's really opinionated there about why they don't use ready or Okay, 507 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:59.559 guess I'm not working here. Yeah, definitely, these are some of those 508 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.000 questions, and so you can ask people. I don't know. I have 509 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:07.920 done like like literally hundreds of interviews by now, and sometimes it is really 510 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:13.320 amazing the things that people have such strong opinions on, where you're like, 511 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.760 I don't know, you expend a lot of emotional energy on something that is 512 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:22.519 probably inconsequential, and you just, you know, wonder how exhausting is it 513 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:27.840 to live like that? Attacking me from the from the late nineties or late 514 00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.719 how old was I? I literally had a like a screaming match with somebody 515 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:35.960 about tabs versus spaces at one point, like I knew it was like Okay, 516 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.159 I need to dial it back like that was my lowest point has gone 517 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:46.760 full circle. Prettier Nobs now talking about the blog posts that you had that 518 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:54.400 was really hit. It was everywhere, shared everywhere about junior and senior developers. 519 00:40:54.519 --> 00:41:00.119 Do you think this is a characteristic of junior professionals? Do you think 520 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:05.480 the senior professionals are better at that? Or do you think it's just like 521 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.199 across the board. I mean, I think it all comes down to how 522 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:14.159 you define junior and senior, because everybody has a different definition, right, 523 00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:17.880 As I wrote in that post, like I received a senior job title when 524 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:22.320 I was I think I was twenty six, maybe I was twenty four. 525 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.239 I don't even remember. Of course, at that point, looking back on 526 00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:29.239 it, I was a junior even though I had tech you know, three 527 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.880 and a half years of experience on paper, because that was still my mindset, 528 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:37.480 right, it was a very immature mindset from an engineering and team perspective. 529 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.960 So I think whether or not those kind of things are had, like 530 00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:46.760 engineering, seniority is such a spectrum or like even a matrix. I would 531 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.880 say, you can be senior in some areas, a junior in others, 532 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:57.840 and sometimes I don't know, you also have junior developers who exert such wisdom 533 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.320 sometimes in a situation because they haven't, you know, been hardened by all 534 00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:08.039 of those production horror stories yet, so they're not so worried about something that 535 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:13.440 ultimately is inconsequential. But I think it goes both ways. You can have 536 00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.880 people who are militant, whether they are senior or about things that are relevant. 537 00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.079 I think it's so much easier to end up in that spot where you 538 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.360 sort of have such strong opinions that you're not willing to budge when you're not 539 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:29.960 necessarily working on a big team. The first job that I was doing development 540 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.800 AD wasn't a developer job. I was actually working in a nonprofit and communications. 541 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:37.119 No one really knew anything about what I was building, but I was 542 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.320 tasked with sort of like creating these WordPress themes for these blogs. And it 543 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:44.079 was really easy to have really strong opinions about the way I was doing it 544 00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:45.679 because I was the only one looking at the code right, and so I 545 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.639 could not only do it the way I wanted to do it, but I 546 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:53.760 you know, then found blog posts that supported my strong assertions about why I 547 00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:57.599 was doing it that way. Right. Yeah, you kind of get in 548 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.880 yourn echo chamber of your own head. I don't know. I think, 549 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:04.639 especially early in your career, it's so helpful to get on a team and 550 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:09.639 have that code review, have that regular kind of cadence of having teammates looking 551 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.679 at your code. Right, because I did something about that helped you become 552 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.199 a little more pliable, I think, and accept other approaches. Yeah, 553 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:21.000 in lieu of that, like back in the mud Tools days, I was 554 00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.599 definitely in an echo chamber and there was like it was, you know, 555 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.320 we were all young, we were hanging out on an irc. It was 556 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.880 very you know, tribal. We didn't realize that at the time, but 557 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:36.480 you know, Mud Tools versus jQuery tribalism. It was hilarious. But occasionally 558 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.440 there'd just be one person that would just kind of pierce the bubble that was 559 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:44.199 just kind of immune to the whole tribalism thing, and that would kind of 560 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.079 force us all to check ourselves. Like John David Dalton, the guy who 561 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:52.000 created low Dash. He really helped me to see how big of an echo 562 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.280 chamber I was in, because there was just like this this like holy war 563 00:43:55.480 --> 00:44:00.320 that they sprung up from nothing. I don't even remember what the issue was 564 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.400 now. But I went and talked to him of like, let me just 565 00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.400 talk to him and see what the deal is. It turns out he had 566 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.079 a legitimate point, like he'd made a comment on GitHub and it had been 567 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:15.880 deleted and like those all this hilarious teenage drama. I just talked to him 568 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.320 and he's just a cool guy. He was just like making a point, 569 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:23.280 like, no emotional identity related drama. He's just like purely technical. You 570 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:25.920 know, we did the thing and now we're pals, like we talk regularly, 571 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:30.119 you know, in lieu of working on a team, like some of 572 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.239 us don't have the luxury of working at big places with multiple teams. Like 573 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:39.519 the best advice that I have is just force yourself to confront and talk to 574 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:45.000 the people who have opposite opinions as you and see why they care about those 575 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.159 things. And maybe you won't change your mind, but at least you'll you'll 576 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.559 get to know those people on a human basis. Try to understand why things 577 00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:58.960 are the way they are before trying to make a revolution. Right, Yes, 578 00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.519 I think Jordan Yeah talks about that a lot. I like the I 579 00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.840 like the you start your your react fiel and talk with that write Monica with 580 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.400 like why do we rewrite software? Mm hmmm. A lot of it is 581 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:14.880 that it's like I just joined and Okay, first of all, let's change 582 00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:20.400 the framework. MM. Yeah, definitely. I I totally had this experience 583 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:24.320 where it wasn't me at the time because actually it was my Well I did 584 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.760 that too. So I have two experiences. The first one, I joined 585 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.599 the company and there were no tests, and I was like, but I 586 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:37.239 thought that you had to write tests. Like. I was very confused because 587 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.880 I came from academia and I had a lot of expectations about how it would 588 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:46.840 work to be at a startup and there were no tests and people were not 589 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:54.320 really open to tests, you know, and I was just like, like, 590 00:45:54.800 --> 00:46:00.199 is this reality? I'm confused. Like So I had that situation as 591 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.679 well, where I was just like, okay, well then I'm going to 592 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:06.480 be the one that writes the tests, and I'm going to be test you 593 00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.760 know, the test lady. And if someone submits something without tests, you 594 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:13.119 know. And then it became like a like a tiny war of like merging 595 00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:15.000 things without pull request and I was like, no, you can't do it 596 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.039 without poor request. But no one had to listen to me, I was 597 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.119 just like this random girl who just joined and they're probably just like, who 598 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:25.480 do you think you are? And of course like arguing people with people who 599 00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:30.199 are at least ten years older than me. I also didn't help. I 600 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:36.599 love it like tests, you know, because all my experience writing production code. 601 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:40.320 But I had also the other situation where we had like people joining the 602 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:45.199 company from an ACQUI hier and the first thing was like, why aren't you 603 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:52.039 using material UI? Why would you ever have your own design system? And 604 00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:57.440 the amount of discussions was just incredible. But it was like, you know 605 00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.280 what, like if you're not open to the fact that we just we just 606 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.679 don't use materially, why, Like I'm done explaining it. The fact is 607 00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:07.679 we just don't use it, and you have to either live with that or 608 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:13.480 you have to not and then do something different, you know. And sometimes 609 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:17.239 that's just the reality because it's not feasible to change the things that are already 610 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:21.000 there, even if someone brings in it a good idea, you know what, 611 00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:23.599 maybe it's not a priority, or you have to be open minded to 612 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:29.079 realize, you know, look that one experience that you had is not valid. 613 00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:31.960 And now I'm building a project that's using material you I and I'm like, 614 00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:36.360 Okay, it's useful, but I wouldn't have even wanted to use it 615 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:39.119 in that situation. So yeah, I think it's a little bit about getting 616 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:45.679 it looking at things from a higher level and picking your battles what really matters 617 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.320 in the long term and what doesn't. Ah, Yes, can I get 618 00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:52.679 that on a shirt? Yeah, choosing choosing the battles is in and it's 619 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.800 the same thing. It's interesting because the first situation that you talked about is 620 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:02.199 like there's no tests or there's no reviews. Right, it's obviously a good 621 00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:07.039 thing, like we all know we need to do some things that are good. 622 00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:12.159 But the attitude that sometimes we have towards solving the problem does not solve 623 00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:15.840 the problem. Sometimes makes a problem even worse. So this is probably like 624 00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:22.480 a really good sign of senior Like when I see a dev that is like 625 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:27.480 choosing the bettle, so like I'm going to fix this one particular thing. 626 00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.559 And the way they approach it is that like everybody is on board. You 627 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:37.000 know, you start you don't just start dropping tests everywhere. If you know 628 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.199 one test, you start like I don't know, talking about it. First 629 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:45.360 of all, you know and then like show one example and make and show 630 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:51.239 how how this would So this is this is interesting. Sometimes you may even 631 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:57.039 have the correct idea on your mind, but your approach to solving it is 632 00:48:57.079 --> 00:49:01.400 making it worse. M One thing that's been interesting for me is doing this 633 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:07.519 but from the perspective of a manager, because on the one hand, you 634 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:09.320 don't want to tell people what to do right, No one likes to be 635 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:12.719 told what to do. If my boss were to just tell me what to 636 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:15.960 do all day, I would be irritated. On the other hand, do 637 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:20.840 you want like that the right decisions are being made and when something is really 638 00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.639 important, you know, you might have to put your foot down, But 639 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:28.239 at the end of the day, people are going to want to implement things 640 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.679 when it's their own idea, and usually the ability of a lot of people 641 00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:36.440 to come together, put their brains together about something is going to yield a 642 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:40.400 way better result than just leaving it to the senior engineer to solve all of 643 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:45.400 the problems. I think one thing that I have learned from leaders who are 644 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.280 like way more senior than me, Like we are not even on the same 645 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:52.320 scale, you know, is this mindset of coming in with loads of questions 646 00:49:52.679 --> 00:50:00.000 and finding out how you can kind of coach people to asking those inconvenient quests 647 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.000 questions, you know, like, for example, if you wanted to do 648 00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:07.360 a migration two typescript, how can you ask people what's going to go wrong? 649 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.679 And really you know, putting them in that position of thinking about the 650 00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:15.880 impact. Is this going to take us three months or is it going to 651 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.960 take us twelve months? How much slower is this going to make our delivery 652 00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.800 while everybody learns types for the first time as JavaScript developers. I think this 653 00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:30.039 is like one of the key things that I'm still learning how to do on 654 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.559 a team, which is, you know, basically leading from behind. How 655 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:39.559 can you actually empower other people to make those decisions and come to conclusions with 656 00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:44.480 the right questions. Yeah, that's huge, Like just you know, thinking 657 00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:47.639 of that that again, So like the super seniors in your experience are coming 658 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:54.039 in with the questions that force other people to think. So instead of coming 659 00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:59.159 in with the answer like Okay, I'm the senior, here here's the answer, 660 00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:02.639 they're coming in with, Okay, here are the questions you guys, 661 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.599 all of us need to consider before we make a decision. That's very interesting. 662 00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:12.960 Yeah, Yeah, that's also how you nurture those other people on your 663 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:15.639 team. Right, It's not only like a benefit for the team as a 664 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:20.119 whole and for the solution that you land on, but you're then essentially nurturing 665 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.840 these other folks to begin to learn how to ask those questions themselves. Right. 666 00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:27.320 So it's like you give back in so many ways. And that's so 667 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:34.360 critical. Like as we're at this position in technology and that competition for engineering 668 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:39.000 people that know how to do this stuff is so fierce that it's absolutely critical 669 00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:43.960 to know how to take people wherever they're at and bring them with you, 670 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:46.880 upgrade their skills, and then leverage them instead of just like you know, 671 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.840 just throwing a pile of you know, off the shelf people at a problem. 672 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:57.599 Yes, definitely. Yeah, it is interesting because I've been working on 673 00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:05.679 this project and it's me and to very bright but junior devs. I love 674 00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:09.400 them. Shout out to Vienna and Allen. The way we are we're we 675 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:15.960 were making the choices, the architectural coding, everything charges in this in this 676 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:22.360 project was that we would go to the whiteboard and put what the questions we're 677 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:28.639 trying to answer here, come up together with two or three solutions. Most 678 00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:31.559 of the time the solutions came from my mind because of experience, but of 679 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:37.800 course we would and then pros and cons of each trade offs, and no, 680 00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:42.039 there's no right answer, and then it's just like which trade offs are 681 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:47.360 we choosing here? And the interesting thing is that even though I probably had 682 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:52.599 an answer for most questions in my mind for all the ten times, at 683 00:52:52.679 --> 00:53:00.760 least half of the times these situations brew new solutions from the interactions. And 684 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:04.360 it's funny because I think that the three of us, we grew a lot 685 00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:07.039 in this in this last four months, in this project, both by this 686 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:13.519 exercise and the thing like I cannot I cannot say I'm more senior just by 687 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:17.280 saying just by saying, Okay, let's do this. This is not the 688 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.719 way it works. It's like I'm only more senior because I've seen more things 689 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:27.400 and I can map more solutions to things. But in the end, like 690 00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.320 we're all like choosing the solutions together, we're all thinking through the solutions together. 691 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:36.239 And if a solution that I come up with is not better than a 692 00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:37.840 solution that they come up with, that should not be the solution that we 693 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:43.239 should use. So this is interesting it's an interesting exercise. It's it's also 694 00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:47.119 very humbly to put yourself in a situation where you can be wrong even though 695 00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:52.000 you have the senior near your title and the other person does not. Like 696 00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:58.079 if this bothers you, it's really complicated. But if it doesn't, you're 697 00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:01.320 in the sweet spot of like learning. Me and my suit spot of life 698 00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:06.400 is whenever I'm learning a lot and people around me are learning a lot too, 699 00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:08.239 like we're all growing together. This is to me, like it's it's 700 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:13.599 everything. So yeah. The one thing that I've found kind of that that 701 00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.360 ties all these things together, that really accelerates learning and growth, is to 702 00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:22.639 focus on what makes you uncomfortable, Like there's a reason why it's uncomfortable. 703 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:25.719 It's like maybe I, you know, I'm tying my ego to this a 704 00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:30.320 little bit too much, or maybe i feel like I'm not I'm inadequate here, 705 00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:36.000 and I'm like, maybe I'm doing some kind of wacky psychology thing. 706 00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.760 A question that I use to sort of gauge myself in those situations is how 707 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.559 much space am I taking up? That's a really interesting thing to ask yourself 708 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:47.480 when you're in any of these situations, no matter what whether you're junior or 709 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:51.400 senior, is like, am I taking up an appropriate amount of space in 710 00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:54.559 this conversation, in this code, in whatever it needs to be right? 711 00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:59.159 I found that really useful. Yeah, I need to check myself, like 712 00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:02.679 how much have I been talking? And boy? Yeah, that's something that 713 00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:08.400 can be really really challenging when you are in like formally a position of authority 714 00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:13.320 and you have to be like so conscious about, for example, you know, 715 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:17.440 letting other people go first and asking people who haven't volunteered their opinion yet 716 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:22.400 to share and making it, you know, extra safe environment for them to 717 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:27.440 say what they think. Yeah, it's not even enough just to like be 718 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:32.079 quiet, but also to like draw other people in and you know that raises 719 00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:37.079 their confidence, just like you guys were talking about nice. All right, 720 00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:42.320 so I think we could go to picks. Now, what do you all 721 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:46.639 say? Yeah, let's do it. So, Thomas, do you want 722 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:51.039 to start? Yeah? So, going off of what Monica was talking about 723 00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:54.760 just like drawing people out. This book that I've been reading lately is Get 724 00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:00.840 the Truth, a former CIA officer teaches how to persuade anyone to tell them 725 00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:05.760 the truth. It's such a such an interesting thing to think about how can 726 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:10.639 you get people to tell you the truth when they are incentivized against it, 727 00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:16.280 and always getting to the truth whatever it is is usually for the best, 728 00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:22.760 and getting past whatever issues are blocking us from dealing with confronting the truth and 729 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.519 moving past it. It's such a fascinating thing. It goes in with like 730 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:30.000 all the psychology stuff that I've been obsessed with lately and applying it to the 731 00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:37.639 real world with fun stories and such nice good one Leslie. So mine's totally 732 00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:42.840 off topic, but I was on a vacation this last week in Mexico City, 733 00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.119 and I'm going to pick a specific area of Mexico City if you ever 734 00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:51.880 get a chance to go. It's called Zochi Milco. Essentially. You know, 735 00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.079 Mexico City was like built on top of ruins and it used to be 736 00:56:54.480 --> 00:57:00.599 water, so there's still kind of a canal system in Mexico City certain areas 737 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:04.280 of the city, and Zochi Milko is this zone where you basically take like 738 00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:13.039 Mexican gondolas out on canals and there are other boats around you with full kitchens 739 00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:15.559 essentially, so a boat will come up next to yours. You can tie 740 00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:20.519 the boats together and they'll like cook you mole and hand it to you while 741 00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:23.079 you're literally on the boat, and mariachi bands will come up and play for 742 00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:30.719 you on their boat. Anyways, it's incredible, highly recommend And then one 743 00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:35.599 related pick, which is that I saw on Twitter the CSS Working Group put 744 00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:37.119 out really well. I don't know if they put it out. I think 745 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:40.320 it's something they've been working on for a while, but it's essentially an incomplete 746 00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:45.159 list of the mistakes made in the design of CSS, and it's a bulleted 747 00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.920 list. It's a really fascinating look at some of these conversations we're having about 748 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:54.039 constraints and once you release something, you know how hard is it to change 749 00:57:54.199 --> 00:58:00.400 those things? But I think it's really I'm not sure you'll have to check 750 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:05.639 out this list. It's pretty long, but anyway, I love the honesty 751 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:08.360 and transparency behind the decision to kind of put that out there. That's nice. 752 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:12.639 It's funny. The picks are getting very diversified. I think it's the 753 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.760 first time they have a geographical pick. This is really I thought i'd go 754 00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:23.039 bold. All right, so I have two picks for today that are also 755 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:30.840 not tech related today. But first of all, is the love every company 756 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:37.000 So I have an eight month old daughter and they have a just love Every 757 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:42.840 company. They have a subscription thinking that every two months you get a box 758 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:50.239 with Montessory toys and other things that are that are good for that moment in 759 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:54.360 life of the baby. And it's the best and cutest toys ever. And 760 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.360 me and my daughter will have a lot of fun every day in the morning 761 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:00.960 play with the things that they do. And they have like also of books 762 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:07.159 with nice ideas on how to make sure that the kid is developing properly and 763 00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:14.239 giving her challenges and stuff like that. So yeah, and my next pick, 764 00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:20.280 so, whenever we talk about health and nutrition and everything, there's so 765 00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:24.840 many things that are happening feds here and there. So if you are so, 766 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:29.960 I don't claim to know the truth, so it's not this pick is 767 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:34.880 not about the truth. But if you want to fest do intermittent fasts and 768 00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:38.400 things like that, there's this app zero app it's called zero zero, just 769 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:44.679 zero the name of the app, and it's really cool and it's helping a 770 00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.519 lot. So these are my two picks. What about you, Monica, 771 00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:52.280 do you have any picks for today? Yes? I was thinking about and 772 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:57.480 so I'm going to also go traditional with a book. These days, I'm 773 00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:04.960 you know, learning mostly about developer related things, but rather building a product, 774 01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:07.679 talking to customers and so on. So my pick is a book called 775 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:14.599 The Mom Test. It's by Rob Fitzpatrick and the subtitle of the book is 776 01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:19.000 how to talk to customers and learn if your product is a good idea when 777 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.960 everybody is lying to you, and so basically it talks about, all, 778 01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:25.559 right, what if you were to do a customer interview with your mom. 779 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.840 Problem is, your mom loves you, so no matter what idea you're going 780 01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:32.360 to tell her, she's going to say, that's amazing, honey. You 781 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:39.079 know. But this book is basically like customer development strategies that you can use 782 01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:45.039 to do a productive customer interview, even with someone who is as close to 783 01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:50.719 you as your mom. So it's really funny. I think it's definitely got 784 01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:54.679 the most personality of the customer development books I've been reading recently. So if 785 01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:00.000 you ever think about, you know, building your own product or just generally 786 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:04.440 trying to get feedback on something where you you know, don't want to get 787 01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.480 lied to, even unintentionally by people who love you very much, then yeah, 788 01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:12.400 check out The Mom Test that sounds awesome. That's so funny. It's 789 01:01:12.440 --> 01:01:15.360 another look. It's two books about the same subject. If you think about 790 01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:23.360 the mom Pass and the CIA's we are all people at the end of the 791 01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:29.519 day, right, that's amazing. All right people, there was a great 792 01:01:29.559 --> 01:01:32.719 episode. So this is it, see you next week. Bye bye, 793 01:01:34.239 --> 01:01:37.360 thanks so much, Thank you very much, money, Kait. It was great.