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The Chili Effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like you,

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yeah and now at a noise and
in our media back May twenty four,

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allegedly according to that thing we call
a calendar, this the o'celly effect.

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You listening to us, most likely
via the podcast, But we do

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broadcast live, and we are live
as we speak on a Tuesday Tuesday,

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and that's just the way it is. Now. I've got a couple of

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different things I got to cover tonight, and no, I'm not gonna go

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deeply into the news, although I
do have something topical to discuss with the

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guy who's been on the show before. More than happy to have him back,

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and in fact, I plan to
have him back a couple more times

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in the next month or so to
discuss a couple of different topics. Anyway,

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Jacob Hornberger, you know, I
do want to discuss books, and

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we're gonna focus on one in particular
tonight. We're gonna get there. But

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before we go there, look,
I've been talking about the presidential selection,

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the upcoming public appearances, how the
campaigns are being run. But you know

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what, even my friends and independent
media not really discussing all that much what's

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happening in the Libertarian Party, what's
going on with the other conventions? Very

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much trapped in the one party excuse
me, supposedly two parties that are the

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major parties, but you know,
the one party reality that's out there and

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talking about Trump and all that,
but eh, nobody's talking about anything else.

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And meanwhile, you actually have a
little personal involvement here. So let's

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begin there. Tell us what's going
on there, and then I'll ease into

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your introduction and get into the main
focus of the discussion tonight afterwards. But

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let's start there. How would you
like to explain that, sir? Well,

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first of all, let me say
it's nice to be back here with

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you. Check it so, it's
always an honor and a pleasure. And

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I am a candidate for the Libertarian
Party presidential nomination. I've been running for

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this nomination for more than a year. I announced back in February of twenty

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twenty three, and there's about eight
of us running. And unfortunately, the

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Libertarian Party circus is going to be
held in Washington, d c. In

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a couple of weeks. And the
reason I call it a circus is because

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the National Party hierarchy has turned the
convention into a circus. You know,

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this is a nominating convention. The
centerpiece of this convention is selecting the presidential

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candidate who the Libertarian Party delegates and
overall, since the Libertarian Party members field

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would be the best exponent of libertarianism
and the principles and philosophy of the party.

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But the national Party hierarchy has expressed
a pretty much distaste for all the

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Libertarian Party presidential candidates. They even
have said the party chairman even said last

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year that she was blaming the severe
problems of the party in their our severe

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problems on the lackluster group of presidential
candidates. Well, I took umbradge at

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this. I think all eight of
us are fighting our hearts out. I

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disagree with the message of my opponents
that they want to run, but I

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have the utmost respect for them,
and I took Ms mccartal to task for

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doing this. Well, now she's
doubled down and invited Donald Trump and Robert

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Kennedy Junior to be the feature of
this convention. I mean, it's really

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it can be called the Kennedy Trump
Convention, And yeah, that's everything that

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is that's a very weird situation because
you know, and look, just for

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the record, you know, Jacob
is a guy associated with the Future of

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Freedom Foundation. I urge you to
go over there and at least subscribe to

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their newsletters, by the way,
because you can be well informed about a

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great many things that just happen to
have something to do with guess what libertarian

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ideals. And I'm not saying that
I agree with everything on the website or

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anything like that, but I've determined
that the majority of my listeners are some

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flavor of libertarian generally, and therefore
you will find something over there at at

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F I think it's f FF dot
org. It is the regular way.

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I got a bookmark, so i'd
have to look myself right now. But

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I'm gonna give you guys the link
in the show notes, so you can

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go over there and subscribe to the
newsletter and also check out mister Hornberger's blog

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because you did write a little bit
about this. I think you put it

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on your substack as well, didn't
you. Well, I never addressed the

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political side at the Future of Freedom
Foundation because we keep a wall of separation

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between my political activity and my foundation
activity. So when people go to FFF

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dot org, they will not see
anything about the Libertarian Party at all.

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And for that matter, I don't
even address Trump or Biden. I keep

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a real strong wall of separation.
They can go to my website at Jacobfurliberty

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dot com. Okay, and that's
that's my campaign website where I take Trump

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and Kennedy and Biden, Democrats and
Republicans to task for what they've done to

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this country. And that's why it's
I have a fierce objection to what the

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party hierarchy is doing by inviting Trump
and Kennedy to address our convention. I

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mean, it's like going to war
and inviting the enemy general to come into

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your camp and recruit soldiers and donations
and members. And it's just bizarre that

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these two candidates who will be competing
against our candidate are being allowed to come

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in here and say vote for me, send me your donations. I mean,

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an intentional saboteur cannot do a better
job at sabotaging our presidential campaign.

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And yet there it is, and
it's just right. And a big point

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I'd like to make here is that
you know, look, I said libertarian

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idealism. I didn't say anything about
your political aspirations over there. I said,

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you have to go to your blog
to follow that, right, But

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that's your website either way. You
partitioned this all and don't involve your foundation.

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You keep that clean because that is
a separate issue from your own personal

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views and your own personal efforts,
right, I mean there is a difference.

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And guess what this is. How
is it that the Libertarian Party is

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going to invite the Republican nominee to
a convention. I don't understand the logic

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behind that. Well, the logic
is that the party for the last twenty

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years has moved in a right wing
direction, and the party hierarchy is right

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wing. That the press refers to
the Libertarian Party as a right wing organization.

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They target Republicans of their votes.
They are strong advocates of immigration controls,

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which is one of Trump's signature positions, and so they have come to

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view Republicans as libertarians, and so
they look at Trump as an idol.

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They go Google eyed when they see
Trump, they idolize and they want to

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feature him. And my hunch is
that there's quite a few of them and

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the party leadership that are really looking
for a position with the Trump administration,

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and by Curry in favor with him
giving him a featured spot. They can

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say, mister Trump, when you're
elected, would you please give us a

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position in your administration? And Trump's
almost certain to say yes. He'll promise

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anything to anybody. And I think
that's what's going on, is that they

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realize that if they run the same
kind of standard message they've run for twenty

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years, they're going to get the
standard zero to one percent, and so

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they might as well just throw in
the towel on the presidential race and start

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buying for attention with Donald Trump to
get into his administration. I think that's

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what's going on. That's my opinion. Look, and I can't argue with

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your opinion at all, because that's
the way it looks to me as an

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outsider, as somebody who's not necessarily
as educated on I mean, I'm sick

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of the whole system. And yeah, the Libertarian Party has certainly moved to

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the right. I've talked about this
that you know, when I first emerged

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as a legal vote right, I
wanted to be libertarian. It's the only

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party I've ever registered with. I've
registered as libertarian and independent only in my

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life, right, and yeah it
moved to the right, though it was

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not always as it looks today.
Number one and number two. It's very

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strange to see this sort of like, I don't know, it's like the

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influencer grab. It's not about,
you know, necessarily what the ideals are

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or the fact that this is a
separate entity from the two main parties.

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Okay, it's now about populism and
just what is not even populism but popularism?

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What's popular? Let's move that in
there. I mean Bobby Kennedy frankly

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is a little more akin to libertarianism
in some of his stances, not all

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in some of his stances. But
nonetheless, it's just bizarre to watch that

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happen. And I know that legitimately
you have a different point of view from

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the typical definitely not on to the
two party or one party system guys.

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So more than happy to get into
that with you another day. Today,

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I want to focus on something else, because you're also an author. Could

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I just add one more thing though, sure that you made a really good

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point about the one party system,
and that's the way I see it,

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that there's no difference between Democrats and
Republicans. Unfortunately, the right wing and

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element in our party Seese Republicans differently
than Democrats. They see Republicans as libertarians,

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which is why they glorify Donald Trump
and other Republican candidates. What I

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want to do, and what I'm
arguing to the party is that if you

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want to achieve a major breakout in
votes, you got to change your direction

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completely away from this libertarian support for
socialism like social security, Medicare, school

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vouchers, education grants, immigration controls, and restore the founding principles of this

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party, the libertarian principles, the
genuine principles, and that that's what we

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need to do to get this party
back on a foundation of rock rather than

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a foundation of sand in which it's
based right now. Right, So I

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just want to add that and go
ahead. You were starting to say something

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about the book we're going to discuss. Oh yeah, no, I want

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to go there too. But you
know, just another quick shout out to

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Murray Sabran, who is the only
libertarian candidate that ever legitimately ran for governor

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in the state of New Jersey.
You know, I had this kind of

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discussion with him some months ago too, where it was like, look what

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has happened here, you know,
to the party. Maybe we could do

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that in a future discussion. Okay, I'd really love to focus on it

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and talk about it, because to
me, it's like the hijacking of what

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could have been a much larger libertarian
party than it is. Significant, Yes,

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and I appreciate it a lot more
than the one party system as it

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stands. But when when you're when
you're completely hijacked by one of the larger

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corporate entities, I mean, well, welcome to America. I guess it

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just is the way of things,
the order of things, if you will.

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Anyways, But but I appreciate all
that. Believe me, I didn't

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want to bog you down in that
discussion tonight's or you know, sort of

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shock you with it or surprise you
with it, because I really want to

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talk about this book and a couple
of things about it, honestly, because

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look, it's got a striking title
to begin with, an Encounter with Evil.

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Let's just begin with the main title
and encounter with evil. Okay,

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colin the Abraham's Zubruter story. Now, Abraham Subruter. My listeners will be

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well aware of who that is.
It is a household name in any household

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that listens to this show, that's
for sure. And I've talked about the

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Zubruterer film with a lot of different
people, everybody from the individuals who say

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it's an absolutely legitimate piece of work
to those that you know, had David

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mantikon not too long ago. His
position is not that it is a completely

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honest documentation of the events in Deily
Plaza. Let's let's put it that way

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politely, Okay. I've talked about, although I didn't have her as a

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guest, I talked about Alexandra Zapruter's
book twenty six Seconds on this show,

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and clearly it's come up with so
many different JFK assassination discussions on my show

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over the years, not always the
main focus, but always a focus on

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my show. Encounter with Evil.
It's a striking title, and it's again

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another another examination of the man and
the film. So first tell me how

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it is you come to this title, why it is necessary to have this

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striking title, and you know,
without giving us everything that's in the book

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and what it is that drew you
to the Abraham Zubruter story in the film,

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itself outside of the obvious that it
is the best known photographic record,

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whether you think it's legitimate or not
or whatever, it's probably the best known

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photographic record linked to the Kennedy assassination. But aside from that, what is

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it that attracted you to this subject
to write about it? Well, many

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years ago I read a book called
People of the Lie. People of the

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Lie by Scott Peck, psychiatrist.
He wrote a book that's much more famous

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called The Road Less Traveled that I
absolutely loved, but People of the Lie

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was a very scary book. The
thesis there that Peck developed was that there

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is evil in the world and that
phenomenon exists. Now he was speaking as

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a Christian, but he says this
is not just some estheteric concept. There

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is genuine evil in the world,
and it concentrates itself in various areas,

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both in the government and in the
private sector, and that it is a

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battle that we wage Christians and others
against this force of evil. And I

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believe that I believe there is evil
in the world, and I believe that

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it was an evil force that took
out John F. Kennedy on November twenty

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second, nineteen sixty three, and
that is part of the cover up.

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This evil force was very, very
successful, both with respect to the autopsy

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that the Military Intelligence Establishment committed conducted
on President Kennedy's body on the very evening

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of the assassination, and then the
very next day by producing an altered copy

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of the Zabruder film, the film
by Dallas businessman Abraham's a bruder of the

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assassination. And what drew me to
this, to this concept of evil in

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the story was alexandra' z Abruder's book
twenty six Seconds. I've done a lot

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of reading and studying on the Kennedy
assassination. I've written a few books on

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the Kennedy assassination, including this one. I've written countless articles. I've had

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conferences at the Future of Freedom Foundation
on the Kennedy assassination. And so when

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I paid picked up her book called
Twenty six Seconds, I thought it was

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just going to be a kind of
an interesting read of the family history with

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the Zabruder film. And as I'm
reading through it, I'm realizing there's much

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more to this than meets the eye, and she develops a she tells in

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the early part of the book that
there was a family taboo that developed against

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discussing the Zabruder film in the Zabruder
family. And she didn't call it a

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taboo, and she actually denies it
was a taboo. She says it was

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just an unwritten code that you don't
discuss this. As a kid growing up,

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she was the granddaughter of Abraham's Abruder, and well, that's exactly what

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a taboo is. It's an unwritten
code in a family that you don't discuss

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00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.399
things. So she decided to violate
this code, and she did it with

204
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.559
much trepidition, and rightly so,
because when these family codes developed, these

205
00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.000
taboos, there's usually a dark secret
behind them. Right now, let me

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00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.720
just interrupt you here because look,
two very similar concepts come up. One

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00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:03.679
is that it's not dissimilar, this
idea of darkness and evil. It sounds

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very similar to what's developed in Jim
Douglas's book, right JFK And the Unspeakable,

209
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:12.200
That is the name that he gives
for the darkness that jumps up and

210
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:18.240
swallows Kennedy. But he also claims
it's the very same unspeakable that you know

211
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:23.639
went and swallowed Gandhi and went and
swallowed Martin Luther King Junior, et cetera,

212
00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.440
et cetera. But this concept that
there is a dark force, no

213
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matter how you name it, is
one thing that is consistent not just in

214
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.399
literature but in our real world,
because anywhere where power coalesces leads to the

215
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:42.720
attraction of what we would have to
plainly describe as evil elements that are attracted

216
00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:48.679
to it. One Two, this
concept of you know, the family talking

217
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.679
about it. I find it interesting
that she put out that book about a

218
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.480
year I think a year or a
year and a half before Yours was released.

219
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.600
It's interesting because the family had only
ever contributed in minor ways to other

220
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:06.880
people's works. They would begrudgingly give
interviews, you know, ever since abrahams

221
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:11.519
A. Pruter was gone the family
ever after, although they controlled the film,

222
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.599
and there's a very weird story about
how, you know, the government

223
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.359
acquires the film, pays them a
huge amount of money for it, doesn't

224
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.920
take the copy right away, and
then they donate it. You know that

225
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:27.279
whole story too. But anyway,
it's it's remarkable to me that she wrote

226
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:32.079
this book. That's why I brought
it up. And obviously it was remarkable

227
00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:36.240
enough to you to get you to
want to explore this a little more deeply.

228
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.960
So back to this taboo that you're
talking about, And look, lots

229
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.200
of families have secrets. Not all
of them are connected to one of the

230
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.319
crimes of the century, though,
you know, in some cases it might

231
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.400
be who's you know, who's somebody's
real daddy is. In some cases it

232
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.119
might be you know, where did
aunt Ethel spend ten years of her life

233
00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:02.000
that nobody knows where she was?
Whatever? Right? Dark secrets? Anyway,

234
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.079
could you give us a hint about
the dark secret that jumped out at

235
00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:11.359
you that you recognized before you started
writing your book, or did you not

236
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.279
know until you really started to delve
into your research. After reading Alexander's work,

237
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:23.440
No, it dawns on me that
there's something dreadfully wrong with this story.

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00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:29.200
As I'm reading her book, I'm
like my jaws just dropping at the

239
00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.160
very beginning of the book because I'm
saying, this is ridiculous as to this

240
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:38.160
thesis she's developing, because she very
rightly fears going down this road. She

241
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.400
says that she knew that there was
going to be a tremendous adverse reaction in

242
00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:48.559
her family because of this unwritten code, you don't discuss this film. So

243
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.279
she knows she's going down a very
scary road, and she says she didn't

244
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:53.680
know what she was going to discover. And I'm sitting there as I'm reading

245
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.920
this, saying that means a dark
secret. When there's a taboo this long,

246
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.519
there's a dark secret. So she
was right to be scared. So

247
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.519
but what really hit me was that
she finally says, well, I came

248
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.119
up with the two reasons for the
taboo, and again she didn't call it

249
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:18.240
a taboo. Two reasons why this
code developed, okay, And one reason

250
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:26.720
is because her grandfather felt tremendous grief
over having witnessed this assassination, like paralyzing

251
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:33.839
grief, and therefore the family just
could not discuss the Kennedy assassination with him,

252
00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.960
and therefore this is how this code
developed. That was one of the

253
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:42.640
reasons the code developed. The other
reason she gives is that her grandfather felt

254
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:51.480
tremendous guilt at having received so much
money and having benefited financially from this film.

255
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.400
He got paid fifty thousand dollars for
the print rights, which is equivalent

256
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.119
to about almost half a million dollars
to day in inflationary money. And then

257
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.759
he two days later he sells all
the rights to the film to Life magazine

258
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.000
for triple that like the equivalent of
one point two million something like that,

259
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.440
and that he felt so much grief
over this that it just could not be

260
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.400
discussed in the family. Well,
Chuck, I'm reading this and saying,

261
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:23.119
that is the most ridiculous thing I
have ever read in my entire life.

262
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:29.519
That this woman goes down this dangerous
road to discover what's behind the taboo,

263
00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:33.119
and she comes up with this ridiculous
thesis. And so the whole book is

264
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.519
surrounding this thesis, and she goes
on this lecture tour to promote the book,

265
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.440
saying this is what my grandfather's fears
were all founded on. This is

266
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.640
how the code developed. Well,
I'm sitting there saying, I don't think

267
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.799
so, lady. So there's something
missing, is what you're saying. There's

268
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.519
a huge piece of the puzzle missing. And make no mistake for a listener

269
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.400
who doesn't know isn't aware. I
would say a fair estimate would be that

270
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.519
the Zabruder family over the years,
over sixty years, has at the very

271
00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:10.759
least reaped about one hundred million dollars
from this twenty six seconds of film.

272
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.559
Is that an unfair estimate in your
mind? Because that's about where I'm at

273
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.240
with it. Between the money that
they got, the tax right off,

274
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.079
all of the different fees that they
were paid when different video releases were made,

275
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:27.359
various things that happened. I think
they made at least one hundred million

276
00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:33.680
dollars over that sixty years. What
do you think? I'm not sure that

277
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:38.160
might might be exaggerating, because but
they got the equivalent of a million dollars

278
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.599
up front that I mean over they
had annual stall installments to ze Bruder.

279
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:48.680
But then later on when the when
the government seesed the film when it was

280
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.359
in the National Archives and under an
imminent domain proceeding, they got sixteen million.

281
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.400
Now I don't know how that translates
out in today's dollars, but let's

282
00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:03.119
say it translates out to twenty five
million. The fiends that you're talking about

283
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.359
was when they control the film after
Life magazine gave it back to them for

284
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.119
a dollar. And I don't know
what they were making in those films,

285
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.880
but I would I would venture to
say probably nowhere close to one hundred million,

286
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:19.000
I would say we're talking more like
thirty or forty million maybe, okay,

287
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.359
but you know what it is,
I'm trying to account for all the

288
00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.279
times that TV shows had to pay
Remember every TV show had to pay them

289
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:32.000
to utilize this thing for a certain
time period, unsolved mysteries. I actually

290
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.480
have one of the one of the
weird videotape things from when they used it.

291
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:41.640
There's various documentary shows over and over
again. They all paid them different

292
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.440
fees, and you know, somebody
would have to have the books open on

293
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.880
this really, But whatever it is, let's just say it is forty million

294
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.359
dollars. Then all right. If
it was forty million dollars, still it's

295
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.359
a substantial amount of money to make
over the course of half a century.

296
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:02.359
I mean you're talking maybe a million
dollars a year between nineteen sixty three and

297
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.480
say twenty thirteen. Oh, it's
an extraordinarily large sum of money. But

298
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:14.160
my point about her thesis is because
they remember, he dies I think in

299
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.880
nineteen sixty nine, so he and
he could have waived he was getting paid

300
00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.880
on an annual basis by Life magazine
for the original purchase price. He could

301
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.759
have waived that money at any time. He just write Life Magazine is saying

302
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.359
I'm feeling so guilty, don't send
me any more money. He never did

303
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.599
that, and then he dies and
the family reached this huge benefit as you're

304
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:38.039
talking about renting it out selling it. They could have waived all that money.

305
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:42.440
So why does the taboo continue after
this guy's death. That makes no

306
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:48.359
sense. And then the grief.
The guy was over there negotiating the film

307
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:53.720
rights on Monday after the assassination.
He clearly wasn't so grief stricken that it

308
00:23:53.960 --> 00:24:00.000
paralyzed him from selling the film.
And there were a lot of people,

309
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.640
well, they were grief stricken over
the assassination, including witnesses in dely Plaza.

310
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:10.400
Nobody, no family had a fifty
year long code against discussing the film

311
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:14.960
or even discussing the assassination because of
that. And it's when I read that

312
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.480
when I said, you know what, I'm going to delve into this.

313
00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:22.519
And I read her book very very
carefully, and I figured out the real

314
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.319
reason for this code, this taboo, and I said, I'm going to

315
00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.599
write a book. So the encounter
with evil was Abraham's. The Bruders encounter

316
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:36.640
with this evil force that brought this
taboo into existence, something that in my

317
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:41.920
opinion, she just lacked the intestinal
fortitude to confront. Well that's a hell

318
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.160
of a statement. So where did
you begin your examination after this? Okay,

319
00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.359
so you read this book, you
have this feeling you've got a missing

320
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.079
piece. What did you decide to
do next? I mean, did you

321
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.720
try to acquire the best copy you
could? Did you? I mean tell

322
00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:03.400
us about that trip through your putting
this together? No, what I did

323
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.079
was I already knew the basic parameters
of what had happened with the Zubruder film.

324
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:14.039
And that was based on Douglas Horn's
work, including his especially his five

325
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.319
volume book Inside the Assassination Records Review
Board. Now, Horn was a member

326
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.799
of the Assassination Records Review Board THEARRB
in the nineteen nineties. That was the

327
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:27.160
agency that was charged with enforcing the
JFK Records Act, which had come into

328
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:33.400
existence as a result of Oliver Stones
movie JFK. And when people learned that

329
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.839
the National Security Establishment and other federal
agencies were still keeping their assassination related record

330
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:45.599
secret, so they they enact the
JFK Records Act to get into secrecy.

331
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:51.559
And so Horn writes, this magnificent, you know, five volume work,

332
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:56.920
and part of that is making the
case for they the way they altered came

333
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:02.119
up with an altered copy of this
film to disguise what really happened in Dealey

334
00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:07.319
Plaza. So and I'd already started
with that parameter. But what I couldn't

335
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:12.880
figure out is how does that lead
to this code? And that was the

336
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:18.319
mystery here. I wanted to solve
this mystery. Now, I come from

337
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.960
a law background. I got a
law degree. I practiced law for twelve

338
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.720
years in Texas. I was a
trial attorney, and so my mind thinks

339
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:27.960
like a lawyer. I'm trying to
figure out what the heck is going on

340
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:36.319
here. And I figured out that
what happened was that the Bruder himself knew

341
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.400
that they had produced an altered copy
of his film, but he was stuck.

342
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:47.640
If he comes out and makes a
statement along these lines, they will

343
00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:51.599
crucify him. Now this guy was
Jewish, this is in Dallas, Texas.

344
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.279
If he comes out with a statement
right after the assassination that this is

345
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.359
an altered copy of his film,
they will go after him with everything.

346
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.720
They will destroy him. A conspiracy
theory an alterationist. They would boycott his

347
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:10.039
businesses. The conservative right in Dallas, which was the most conservative city in

348
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.319
the world in the United States,
they would have gone after him with all

349
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:18.599
guns blaring. So this man is
faced with a very bad situation in his

350
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:23.720
life. Does he go public with
what he knows is a fraudulent film or

351
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:29.200
does he stay quiet and support the
official version. And that was his quandary.

352
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:33.640
And he and he he had an
altercation with Mark Lane, that the

353
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.200
guy who was investigating and questioning the
official narrative. And it was not a

354
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.559
pleasant thing. And and what I
write in the book is the reason it

355
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.799
wasn't pleasant was because Lane was reminding
this guy that he was standing on the

356
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:51.640
truth and the principle and taking a
lot of flak being called a communist,

357
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:57.119
and and and and Zeebruter had taken
the easy way out, that he had

358
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:02.119
gone with a lie. And this
is what ends up destroying the man.

359
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.519
And she made it very clear that
his life was totally changed after this filming,

360
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.480
that he was never the same again. He wouldn't he was a master

361
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:12.839
at taking home movies, she said. He never took home movies again.

362
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.839
And so it's his conscience is bothering
him throughout this thing. And but yet

363
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:23.680
they are hints of what happened.
For example, if you watch the film

364
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.880
at the very beginning, it shows
the motorcate turning left onto Elm Street,

365
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.720
and then suddenly there's a jump,
just just a dramatic jump, where the

366
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:45.279
next frame is showing Kennedy's limousine all
the way down Main Street at Elm Street.

367
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:52.960
So you've eliminated what happened during the
turn. And Zabruder had to know

368
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.680
this because he watched his film for
his partner, said Erwin. Short said

369
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.839
he watched it at least fifteen times
during the weekend of the assassination. So

370
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:07.599
imagine a guy that's looking at frames
of his film, which is kind of

371
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.039
interesting. When they took his deposition
in the Warren Commission, they didn't show

372
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:18.039
him his film. They showed him
dark like fog ridden frames from his film.

373
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.759
But even looking at the frames,
he has to be able to see

374
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.400
that there's frames missing. I mean, if anybody knew his film, it

375
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:33.240
was him. So I dug up
quotes by him and his assistant, Marilyn

376
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.400
Sitzman, who was there with him
at Dealey Plaza helping him do this film,

377
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.039
and she was holding on to him
because he had vertigo on the pedestal

378
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.759
that he was standing on. They
both said, we started filming or he

379
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.799
started filming. He said, I
started filming with the turn and kept filming,

380
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.920
which is logical. If you won
a momento for your grandchildren later in

381
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:57.440
life, you're going to start filming
immediately because you know this is the end

382
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.319
of the motorcape. You can't afford
to take the chance that the guy's going

383
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:04.160
to speed up to sixty miles an
hour and bypass you and start filming where

384
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:10.000
you're filming his back. So it's
logical that he would start filming the turn

385
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.599
and just keep filming until he until
he runs out of film. Let's stick

386
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.799
with it. Now. Here's the
interesting part about that that I want to

387
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.640
ask you about, because the story
I've heard over the years is that he

388
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.880
stopped and cranked his you know,
because it was one of these things that

389
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:27.160
was he actually had to wind it
up. The type of camera he had,

390
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:30.640
you had to wind it up in
order to keep the spring loaded mechanism

391
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.279
running, which pulled the film through. But he stopped and wound it real

392
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:38.319
quick and then went back to filming. Now. I found that strange in

393
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:44.559
that he had to have somebody hold
him so that his vertigo wouldn't screw him

394
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.240
up, and yet he's going to
stop and crank the camera around. He

395
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:51.400
didn't do that ahead of time.
I always found that to be weird.

396
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.599
Do you know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about.

397
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:57.599
It's a ridiculous explanations, because,
as you say, he would already

398
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:03.200
be prepared. This guy was as
professional a movie maker as an amateur could

399
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.440
be. He'd been taking home movies
for years and years. This was his

400
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.880
hobby. He had a state of
the art Bell and Howell movie camera.

401
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.920
So this guy knew what he was
doing. He's going to have that thing

402
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:21.000
wound up. But let's assume that
this little story in here is correct,

403
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:25.759
and it's really just a hypothesis.
Why would he even start filming the turn

404
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.920
if he feels like he's going to
run out of film where he's got to

405
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.119
rewind and so where just start filming? When Kennedy's halfway down Elm Street.

406
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.759
Why start the filming, stop it, rewind it, and start it up

407
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:41.680
again. That makes no mistake and
no sense, because this was the end

408
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.640
of the motor cab. Even his
partner said, you're not going to get

409
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.000
any film. He's going to be
rushing out of there sixty miles an hour.

410
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.000
So it makes sense. And this
is exactly what the Breweder and Marilyn

411
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:59.519
Sisman said. We started filming on
the turn and essentially kept filming down the

412
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.960
Elm Street. They never said we
stopped filming and cranked it up. So

413
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:07.279
based on their own words, that
the guy keeps filming, and it's logical

414
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.880
that he's going to keep filming until
he runs out of film. And he

415
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.839
knew how much film he had.
That, Like I say, this guy

416
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.599
was a professional as professional as an
amateur could do. And so now when

417
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:25.599
when he he's over there at the
when they show him these these frames that

418
00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.039
they don't show him the film,
which is really revealing. Uh, he's

419
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:35.200
got to see something's wrong. Now
here's another very revealing aspect of this thing.

420
00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:42.240
Life magazine, the week after the
assassination publishes a story by a guy

421
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:46.200
named Paul Mandel, who's one of
their reporters. I mean, this guy

422
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.920
was, you know, very reputable, very prominent. Okay, So he

423
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:55.720
writes the story on the Zabruder film, and which Life Magazine now has custody

424
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:01.519
of, and he's and they're trying
to explain the shot through Kennedy's throat.

425
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:07.359
The doctors in Dallas said he had
an entry wound in his throat, which

426
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.400
is obviously contrary to the official narrative
where you have the shooter in the back

427
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:17.960
the accused assassin leeve Harvey Oswell,
so they've got to explain this wound in

428
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.359
the front. And the reason the
Dallas doctor said that is because there was

429
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:28.720
just a small bullet entry wound into
the throat. And this Parkland Hospital is

430
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.039
one of the best trauma hospitals in
the country. This is what they deal

431
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:37.920
with his gunshot wounds at this hospital. So Paul Mandel rides in Life Magazine

432
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:43.640
that there's an explanation for this.
He says that the za Bruder film,

433
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:47.960
which was now being sequestered. Once
Life Magazine bought this film, they announced

434
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:52.799
that the world would never be permitted
to watch it. And Mandel says,

435
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:59.200
but the za Bruder film shows Kennedy
making a complete turn around, like one

436
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.640
hundred and eighty degree turn, facing
the school book depository when the shot that

437
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:07.719
hits him into in the front of
the neck rings out. Well, there's

438
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:12.280
no there's no way to disprove this. I mean, they've got the possession

439
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.880
of the film. And so the
average person that's reading Paul Mandel's article is

440
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.920
saying, I'll be darn. So
that's how the shot hit him in the

441
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:22.000
front of the neck, and this
ruder film doesn't get released for another twelve

442
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.639
years. Well, there's one man
that would have been reading that issue of

443
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.800
Life magazine, because that's the magazine
that he highly respected and that he had

444
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:36.559
sold his film to. He would
have been reading every single aspect of Life

445
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.480
magazine, especially the week after the
assassination. And that's Abraham's a bruder.

446
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.800
Now, if there's any man that
would know that that is not what the

447
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.119
film showed, it would be Abraham's
a bruder. Why didn't he speak out?

448
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.679
Why didn't he say Mandel is lying? And my hunch is at what

449
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:58.559
happened was that he went home and
he talked to his wife, who Alexandra

450
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:01.760
says was very streets she didn't have
a formal education, but a very street

451
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:08.159
smart woman. And he went home
and he says, Lilian, they have

452
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:13.159
lied about my film. They've paid
me a million dollars over a million dollar

453
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.519
well whatever, one hundred and fifty
thousand, and they've now lied about my

454
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:20.599
film? What should I do about
this? And I, as I write

455
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:23.599
in the book, I think the
street smart Maryland said, Abe, there

456
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.360
are things that we can't understand,
but there's something big going on here and

457
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.559
we just have to keep our heads
down and keep our mouths shut. And

458
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:35.400
I think that's what happened. Well, I mean, what good are you

459
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.239
going to do if they're saying it
and they have possession of the film,

460
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.440
right, And at this point in
time, his claim is that he had

461
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.639
no copy, so it's not like
he could take his film out and say,

462
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.320
look, this isn't what's in my
film? Right. The only people

463
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:52.760
that have copies of this allegedly are
the Secret Service, the FPI, and

464
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:58.159
Time magazine. Okay, that's it
right. Matter of fact, you see

465
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.679
the print of the frames in a
Warren Commission volume, I think it's eighteen,

466
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:06.760
where they print the frames of the
Zubruder film. One of them out

467
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:09.079
of order, by the way,
but uh yeah, interesting stuff there.

468
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:13.880
But yeah, what are you gonna
do at this point? You don't have

469
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.159
any proof, so what are you
gonna do call up their competitor magazine and

470
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:20.840
say, uh, Time magazine has
it wrong. Life magazine has it wrong.

471
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.639
Sorry, Life, it is not
Time, it's Time Life. But

472
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:27.199
anyway, you know, what are
you going to do at that point right

473
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:31.559
exactly? And you know what's going
to happen? You see, they can't.

474
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:37.639
They both came from Russia where and
she was Jewish too, and Alexander

475
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.599
describes in the book how you know
Jews were under severe persecution in Russia and

476
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.559
that was one of the reasons why
they were escaping and coming to New York,

477
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.639
uh and other parts of the United
States. But the Zubrugers went to

478
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:52.760
New York and ended up in Dallas. But they have to conjure up images

479
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:58.679
of what happens if they take on
this huge dark force that is obviously surfacing

480
00:36:58.760 --> 00:37:02.679
here where they're lying about his film, and he's very suspicious about the assassination

481
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:08.199
because he's investigating. She discloses in
the book that he actually goes out to

482
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:14.320
Dealey Plaza and he looks at the
scene. He's trying to figure out what's

483
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.920
going on. So this is clearly
a very troubled man about what's going on

484
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:23.960
now Here's another factor is that he
there's a trial in the late nineteen sixties.

485
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:29.519
I think it was around sixty nine
or so sixty eight is that involving

486
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:35.480
a man named Clay Shaw, where
the district attorney in New Orleans Garrison was

487
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:40.000
prosecuting Shaw for having supposedly been involved
in the Kennedy assassination. But the overall

488
00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:45.159
theme is that this was a national
security state regime change operation, which is

489
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.559
the theme of Allerstones movie JFK.
It's based on this prosecution. And the

490
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:59.880
subpoena is a brewder who is called
to the witness sand and he is shown

491
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:06.960
his film for the first time since
the assassination, or at least what is

492
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.719
supposed to be his film, right, And it's a copy. It's not

493
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:14.400
the original, and it's not the
original copy. It's a copy of what

494
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:20.559
I contend is the copy the original
copy. And the judge, the prosecutor

495
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:25.920
asks the breuter to identify the film
to authenticate the film. Is this your

496
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:31.920
film? And his answer was fascinating. He says, well, something to

497
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:37.880
the effect. I can't verify whether
there's been frames omitted or not. It's

498
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:44.440
possible they could have eliminated frames well
that was just like that is not an

499
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:50.199
unequivocal endorsement of the film. Once
a witness says that, it's incumbent on

500
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.320
the judge to say, well,
you have not authenticated the film. We

501
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:59.800
need the original because copies can be
fraudulent copies. So when a witness hedges

502
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.800
on the authentication of a copy,
the judge would have said, you bring

503
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.760
the original, which would have been
an original copy. It would have been

504
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.880
a duplicate of what he said.
There may be frames missing. Well,

505
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:14.320
I think that's a very revealing statement, because, as I state in my

506
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.760
book, and this is based on
horn Horns analysis, there were fifty nine

507
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:23.519
witnesses, fifty nine that said that
the limousine in which the president was writing

508
00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:29.519
made a complete stop or a near
stop. Well, a Zabruter film,

509
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.320
the extant film, the film we
see today shows no stop at all or

510
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.039
even near stop. Now that's very
incriminating. Obviously, if you have a

511
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:43.480
film that's showing the driver's stopping and
then the headshot taking place, that looks

512
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:46.760
pretty bad. So we can tend
those of us that argue this is that

513
00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:54.119
those frames were deleted in the altered
copy showing the stop and That's what bothered

514
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:59.400
Zu Bruter. And when he was
testifying, he knew he was committing perjury,

515
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.039
but he was having to hedge his
bets, and I think in his

516
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.480
conscience he thought, well, maybe
if I hedge my bet and say that,

517
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.159
maybe they're frames missing. I'm not
really lying about this. It's a

518
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:14.679
man, it's clearly troubled with a
troubled conscience. See, and I'm one

519
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:16.960
of these people who doesn't necessarily believe
in the stop. I gotta be honest

520
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.760
with you because eyewitness testimony is problematic
and all that, but I'm not here

521
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.599
to argue with you. I want
to go through this story with you and

522
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:30.199
find out what it is you found. It's interesting to me though, that

523
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:37.280
yes, they subpoened the film from
life also, right, so they're supposed

524
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.760
to bring the original film. Now
this leads to, by the way,

525
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.360
copies of this thing getting out,
which you know the legendary story about that.

526
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:51.199
How these copies. Then the bootleg
copies just started to emerge after the

527
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:55.039
trial. You know about that as
well, right, Yes, absolutely somebody

528
00:40:55.159 --> 00:41:00.800
was. It appears somebody was making
some unauthorized copies of part of this trial.

529
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.840
Oh guaranteed, somebody was because only
a couple of years later, these

530
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.400
things were circulating all over the country. In fact, I had my hands

531
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.679
on one of them in the nineties. But the copy was made in like

532
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:15.880
sixty eight. Okay, probably a
copy of a copy of a copy at

533
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.719
that point, and it looked terrible
by the way, I mean, nothing

534
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:24.159
like what you see today. But
even so, okay, so let's go,

535
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:28.320
let's go back through. This is
what you're saying is during the show

536
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:31.400
trial. He's got testimony there.
Now. They subpoenaed what should have been

537
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:35.239
the original film, though, right, I mean, isn't that what they

538
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.480
were after when they made the request
and they had it sent to New Orleans.

539
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:44.880
Absolutely, when you subpoena something,
they are required to bring the original.

540
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:46.960
But they don't bring the original,
they bring a copy. But it's

541
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:52.599
my contention that the so called original
was the same as the copy anyway.

542
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.800
I mean, that's the fraudulent copy, so it wouldn't have made any difference.

543
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.320
The original that I'm talking about is
the one that is gone. We

544
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:06.719
don't know what happened to it,
and I know we're limited by time,

545
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:12.639
So I'd like to jump up to
Dino Brugioni and what was happening on the

546
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.519
night the night after the assassination.
This is really feels in part of the

547
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:27.440
mystery as well. So in the
late two thousands, Doug Horn is collaborating

548
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:32.039
with an author named Peter Janney,
who ends up writing a fantastic book called

549
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:37.719
Mary's Mosaic, and they become friends
and they're talking about the assassination. They're

550
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:43.480
on the same page. Well,
Janny, in researching his book, discovers

551
00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:50.159
the existence of a CIA at former
CIA official named Dino Brugioni. And Janny's

552
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.119
father had been in the CIA.
He had been a high official in the

553
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:59.440
CIA during the Kennedy assassination. And
so he contacts Brugioni, who's this very

554
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:04.159
friendly, genial guy, and he
Brugioni. You can google him to google

555
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:09.239
Dino Brigioni. He is the world's
most renowned photographic expert ever. I mean

556
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.719
this guy. He was analyzing the
film for the Cuban Missile Crisis. He's

557
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:20.440
written books on photographic analysis. Everybody
acknowledges that Brugioni was the best of the

558
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:28.000
best at analyzing photographic stuff. So
Brugioni says, well, Peter, come

559
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:30.400
on over and have a chat with
me coming to my house. He's retired

560
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:35.679
by this time. During the course
of the conversation, this Zabruder film comes

561
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.320
up, and Brugioni discloses something which
he really shouldn't have disclosed. And I

562
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.960
don't know whether he did it on
purpose or whether he just innocently discloses it,

563
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:49.119
but he says, oh, I
had possession of the Zabruder film on

564
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:54.000
Saturday night of the of the assassination. And Janny's like stun what because the

565
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.920
official story has always been that the
film went to Life Magazine on Saturday after

566
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.400
afternoon, after the Breweder had sold
the original. He gives the original to

567
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:09.000
Life Magazines representative Dick Stoley, and
it gets on a plane to Chicago at

568
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:13.920
three pm on Saturday. Briggioni says, well, no, it was around

569
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:16.519
late at night, ten o'clock at
night or something like that that a Secret

570
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.280
Service agent or two Secret Service agents
bring the film in the original eight millimeter

571
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.920
film, and he says, they
told me that I needed to make briefing

572
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:30.320
boards like poster boards with blown up
frames. So he does that and he

573
00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.000
watches the film over and over again. They even had to go out and

574
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.239
get an eight millimeter movie projector if
you can believe that. Now, this

575
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:42.639
is at the National Photographic Interpretation Center, which is the CIA's photographic center in

576
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:47.639
Washington, d C. Top secret
operation. So the two Secret Service agents

577
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.559
take the film. This is all
detailed in my book. And they leave

578
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:57.599
with the film and Bridge one does
his briefing boards and gives him over to

579
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:02.760
his boss. On Sunday night night, it turns out that another Secret Service

580
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:08.400
agent shows up with a sixteen millimeter
copy of the film. Now that's significant

581
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.920
because the film starts as an eight
millimeter film. It all of a sudden,

582
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.719
you have a sixteen millimeter copy.
The reason I say that is because

583
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:20.320
the only way you can get a
sixteen millimeter film out of an eight millimeter

584
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.400
film is by copying it on sixteen
millimeter format. Once you have an eight

585
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:29.679
millimeter film, you can't convert that
film into a sixteen millimeter film. And

586
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:34.079
the Secret Service agent tells the Sunday
Night team, I've just come from I

587
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:38.280
brought the film from Hawkeye Works.
Now, Hawkeye Works was a top secret

588
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:46.599
CIA operation located in the middle of
Kodak's research and development headquarters at Rochester,

589
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:52.039
New York. Now there's no indication
that Kodek was involved in what was going

590
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:58.119
on here with respect to the The
Grider film. But according to representatives at

591
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:01.840
Hawkeye Works, they told Brudeoni,
we can do whatever Hollywood can do to

592
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:07.880
films, and they had everything there. So you have these two top secret

593
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:15.239
operations that are totally compartmentalized. Breugioni
was the second in command at Nitpick and

594
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:20.920
he was also the duty officer in
charge. So when Janny says to him

595
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:25.400
in the late two thousands there was
another operation on Sunday night with briefing boards,

596
00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:29.639
he says, that's impossible. I
would have known about this. I'm

597
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:32.480
the duty officer in charge, and
that Jenny says, it's not impossible.

598
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:37.360
They've testified to it that under oath
that that team, and so they show

599
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.880
Brigioni the briefing boards. There's only
one set of briefing boards that's ever been

600
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:46.920
disclosed, and they showed Breugioni the
copy of the briefing boards in the record,

601
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:51.199
and brew Gioni says, those are
not my briefing boards. I don't

602
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:54.280
prepare briefing boards like that. And
they used to call Brigioni the briefing boards

603
00:46:54.320 --> 00:47:00.800
are because of how he produced his
briefing boards. So here's here's the final

604
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:07.199
kicker to this. Chuck, Janny
and Horn show Brugioni the extant film,

605
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:13.800
the film that we all see today, and Brugioni is stunned. He says,

606
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.079
no, that's not the film we
watched on Saturday night. And he

607
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:21.039
says, for example, the head
shot, that's only one frame. And

608
00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:23.840
he's mystified by this, and they've
got this all on videotape. He's passed

609
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:30.880
away now, but fortunately they videotaped
the entire interviews with Brugioni, and Brugioni

610
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:35.840
is there saying there's only one frame
for the head shot, and they say,

611
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.280
yeah, there's only one frame,
that's frame three thirteen, and Brigioni

612
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:42.880
says, no, no, he
says there were multiple frames of the head

613
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.400
shot. He says, because we
were so fascinated, because there was a

614
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:52.119
plume of blood and brain tissue shooting
straight up into the sky. And he

615
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:57.400
says, we were just so stunned
by and mesmerized by this that we had

616
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.800
to keep watching it over and over
again. Well, he said, that's

617
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:07.159
not the film, and so that
was the clincher. Brugioni's not testimony because

618
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.840
he was never under oath, but
his statements as to what was going on

619
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:16.519
with this film that was the clincher. There's no way to avoid what his

620
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:21.679
statement is with respect to the authenticity
of this film. Well, one strange

621
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.199
question I have for you is when
you say that a sixteen millimeter film showed

622
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:29.679
up after an eight millimeter film showed
up, is it possible that we're talking

623
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:34.320
about the sixteen millimeter version that is
produced when the film was originally printed,

624
00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:39.639
Because the eight millimeter film is literally
printed as a sixteen millimeter piece and then

625
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:44.840
it's slit, it's cut down the
middle and then connected to make an eight

626
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:51.320
millimeter film. That's part of the
process that went along with that particular setup

627
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:54.519
with the camera, right, So
is it possible that it's a uncut version

628
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:59.599
of the film, which by the
way, would be strange too, or

629
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:04.079
we talk talking about a sixteen millimeter
print that is literally sixteen millimeters wide.

630
00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.800
Okay, that's a great question,
all right. The film starts out what's

631
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:14.760
called double eight when he's filming,
right, and that's a sixteen millimeter film.

632
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:20.280
The Bell and Howley has starts out
filming on a sixteen millimeter wide film.

633
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:23.000
And the reason they call it double
eight is because it would later be

634
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:28.320
slit. You would film on one
side, you know, vertically down,

635
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:30.920
and then you would turn it over
to film on the other side, so

636
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:37.480
you'd have two vertical strips on the
same strip, and then you would slit

637
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:40.079
it down the middle and connect the
two strips end to end. So it

638
00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:46.280
started out as a twenty five millimeter
long strip of film would be fifty feet

639
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:52.239
now of eight milimeter instead of a
sixteen milimeter. So what happened in this

640
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:58.719
case He takes the film sixteen milimeter
format to Kodak in Dallas on the afternoon

641
00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:01.960
the assassination and he says, I
need this developed and they said okay,

642
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:06.840
So they developed the film, but
they said and he says, I want

643
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:10.000
three copies, and they said,
we can't do copies here. You have

644
00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:15.719
to take it to Jamison Film Company
for copies, but they can only copy

645
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:19.199
sixteen milimeters. So we don't want
to slit your film because if we slit

646
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.840
your film, you're not going to
get copies made. So he takes his

647
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:30.920
sixteen millimeter film, the original film, to Jamison that then makes the three

648
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:37.280
copies, and so he then returns
to Kodak with his original and his three

649
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:40.679
copies, and they slit all four
films down the middle. Now, how

650
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:44.480
do we know that, Because your
question is a very good one. What

651
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.119
if he leaves the original film in
a sixteen milimeter format. Well, we

652
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:53.440
have statements from the Kodak people.
They're cited in my book saying we slit

653
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:58.840
all the films down the middle,
including the original one, which stands to

654
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.840
reason because zae Bruder's entire quest here
was to get as much money for this

655
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:07.360
film as he could, and he
had even told a secret service agent that

656
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.800
he made that statement, saying,
I'm going to get as much money as

657
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:14.800
I can for this film. Well, it stands to reason that if he's

658
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:17.199
going to get a bidding war going
with the media, he's going to want

659
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:22.639
to show the original. It would
be stupid. Because the Kodak people also

660
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:27.519
stated that they saw the difference between
the original and the first generation copy.

661
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:30.000
This is the first generation copy,
and they said, you could clearly see

662
00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:36.480
the difference. And then if we
then go over to Brugioni, this is

663
00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:40.880
the world's most renowned expert on photo
analysis, he said, there is no

664
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.119
question that I had the original.
He says, it was so clear and

665
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:49.920
so crisp. Now, if there's
anybody that can distinguish an original from a

666
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.039
copy, it's Brugioni. And so
he had to go out and get this

667
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:59.360
eight millimeter projector to show this eight
millimeter film, and he's saying this was

668
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.719
an original. So when they take
it to Hawkeye Works, the only way

669
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:07.760
they can produce a sixteen millimeter film
is by making a copy, and that

670
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.400
would be done with what was called
an aerial optical printer. And then you

671
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.000
copy it, and then you make
the altered copy. You make the copy

672
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:20.000
the altered You make the copy the
altered copy. You don't delete frames and

673
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:23.559
omit frames from the original. You
do that with the altered copy. And

674
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:28.440
so they bring it back. Why
do they bring it back in sixteen mil

675
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.039
sixteen milimeter format? Bad mistake,
you would think, I mean, that's

676
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.800
dumb. Well, for one thing, because it's all top secret. This

677
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:38.079
is the CIA operation. Keep in
mind that the CIA kept his secret for

678
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:43.639
what fifty years or so, so
they don't really have to worry about secrets

679
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:47.119
getting out. But my hunch is
the guy who brought it back, the

680
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:52.519
secret service agent who called himself,
Bill Smith, who I have absolutely no

681
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.599
doubt since I written my book,
was actually a CIA agent disguised as a

682
00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:01.360
Secret Service agent. That he he
understands that they don't have an eight millimeter

683
00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:07.679
format a projector at Nitpick. He
didn't know that they've they went out and

684
00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:12.320
bought one late at night on Saturday
night. So he's bringing the sixteen millimeter

685
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:16.400
format back to make briefing boards again, to make copies from this briefing board.

686
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.800
So he figures, well, I'll
just take it back in the sixteen

687
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:23.760
milimeter format since they don't have an
eight millimeter projector there, And that screw

688
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:30.840
up is what became manifest fifty years
later. And that's that's the hell of

689
00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:34.079
a thing because again you're not going
to get that without making a copy from

690
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.719
the original, because the only other
way to have a sixteen millimeter physical sixteen

691
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:43.119
millimeter pieces, like I said,
from the original uncut. So you know,

692
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:45.960
there you go. That is that
has always been the wildest part of

693
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:53.039
the story. Now do we know
what happened to because here's the other thing

694
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:55.880
I was also thinking, because you
talked about how he was, you know,

695
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:00.719
a Russian Jew, and it clearly
had a serious sphere of government agencies.

696
00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:05.800
I'm sure even though he knew the
American government was different than the Russian

697
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:09.280
point is I doubt he would have
argued with them when they wanted their copies

698
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:14.679
too. So he gave them whatever
copies they asked for, probably right away,

699
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:17.079
but wanted to also retain his right
to sell this thing, right,

700
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:22.199
so both things had to be done
right away. This is why there was

701
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:27.400
a need for all these copies,
right well, that's right now. He

702
00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:32.199
had this mindset of of that warped
version of patriotism that the government is,

703
00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:37.639
you know, you can trust the
government. And so when he made these

704
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:40.920
copies and he immediately gave him over
to the Secret Service, he's trusting government.

705
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.199
Is Americas did at that time that, you know, the thought that

706
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:50.039
the government would be behind this assassination
was ridiculous. I mean, nobody even

707
00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:54.679
thought about that. Maybe Mark Lane
did, Salandra did too, but most

708
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:59.440
people would never dream. There was
a deepen abiding faith in government, and

709
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:04.880
Zabruta had that faith. She describes
in her book. What I'm saying is

710
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.920
that he trusts these people, he
trusts the Secret Service, But all of

711
00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:14.280
a sudden he realizes that there's something
going on here with his film, and

712
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:17.440
he recognizes that it's much bigger than
him, and that if he takes this

713
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:21.119
thing on now, he doesn't know
what's going on. He doesn't know that

714
00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:25.000
he knows there's a force out there, and I suspect he realized this is

715
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:30.000
a dark force, as James Douglas
points out in his book, But he

716
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:32.280
doesn't know what that force is.
He doesn't know what's going on. And

717
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.079
I don't think he suspected that,
oh this was a military CIA operation.

718
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:40.039
He didn't know what this force was, but he was scared of it.

719
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:45.840
But at the same time he had
this blind sense of patriotism, faith in

720
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.880
government, in the American government.
Right, fair enough. So again,

721
00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:53.320
the name of the book is an
Encounter with Evil, the Abraham Subruder story.

722
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:58.199
And you want people to get it
from Amazon? Should I give him

723
00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:01.199
the link there to get it.
Yeah, that's the only place that's sold.

724
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:07.519
And we have been in audio format
as well as ken and print version.

725
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:12.480
Right, it's a I should say
that, Yeah, I should pointed

726
00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:15.280
that c Span Book TV did an
interview with me on the book, and

727
00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:19.280
so if people want to get a
little synopsis of the book, they can

728
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:23.119
google that at c SPAN book TV. Okay, I'll find a link to

729
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.400
that. I'm sure it's available online, probably at no cost, So I'll

730
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:30.639
see if I can find a link
to that as well. But any final

731
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:31.480
words you want to put on this, you know, I mean, because

732
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:36.400
we went through a little deep into
part of the story about the film and

733
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:40.000
about this dark force, the evil
that would have been encountered, and obviously

734
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.000
you're gonna have to read the book
to get the rest of it, guys,

735
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:46.679
But you know what else, what
else do we need to make sure

736
00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:52.480
people hear about if they're thinking about
picking up this book. What is one

737
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:57.000
other just final point you want to
put on this? Well, I think

738
00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:00.280
it's the point that you made earlier
about James Douglas's book Came the Unspeakable,

739
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:05.679
that that book, I is the
first book I ever recommend to anybody who's

740
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:08.760
getting into the assassination. It's a
deep, profound book. It's a very

741
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:15.159
spiritual book. And the Unspeakable is
this dark force. And it's that dark

742
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:19.400
force that I emphasized throughout this book, an encounter with evil like it has

743
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:24.760
called it an encounter with the dark
force, And I think that's what's important

744
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:30.079
for people to keep in mind here
that the federal government was converted to a

745
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:35.559
national security state after World War Two. I have long contended that this was

746
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.880
the worst mistake America ever made.
This is a totalitarian form of governmental structure.

747
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:46.239
They have omnipotent totalitarian powers like assassination, torture, indefinite detention. It

748
00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:51.119
is dark, dark element in our
governmental structure. And what we need to

749
00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:55.280
do to get this country back on
the right road is dismantle that national security

750
00:57:55.320 --> 00:58:00.559
state structure and restore our founding governmental
system of a limited government republic. And

751
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:06.280
that's the real big message in all
of my books and articles about the Kennedy

752
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:12.320
assassination is that the cover up continues
because this darkforce is still with us,

753
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:17.639
and at all times the system will
defend and protect itself. Jacob Warrenberger once

754
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:22.159
again, guys the name of the
book just so you remember, and like

755
00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:24.519
I said, check the links with
the show notes and all that. But

756
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:59.119
an Encounter with Evil, the Abraham
Zubruder story and Window Silver, the stock

757
00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:06.519
Market, Wall Street window Dott.
Perhaps you're invested deeply, perhaps you're not

758
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:12.039
in deep enough. Maybe you're thinking
about getting started. Wall Street windows Condo

759
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:16.000
dot com. Michael Swanson, the
brilliant author of the War State, understood

760
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:21.000
these trends professionally for many years,
and now he gives you the benefit of

761
00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:28.559
his knowledge. Wall Street Street,
Window dot dot Go there, now go

762
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:32.239
there, now go there, Now
go ahead, calling about the day of

763
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:36.079
hay assassination. Right, well,
what do you want to know Judy Baker's

764
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:39.800
wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew Ruby
and Barry Canty weapons. Really, I

765
00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:43.800
imagine I could claim I have four
wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon,

766
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:47.519
but okayil and trying to prevent the
murder of John Kennedy. Come on

767
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:52.320
now has a real effort on the
day of Hay assassination. Go to Amazon

768
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:58.360
dot com enter Judith Baker in her
own words. You'll get the results for

769
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:02.239
a digital copy of a book.
Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the

770
01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:07.360
known evidence in the case to get
at well a different perspective. Let's say

771
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:12.639
you can get Judith Barry Baker in
her own words from the author himself,

772
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:19.360
signed if you request it by contacting
doctor Brown at kias jfk at aol dot

773
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:23.199
com. It's a fun book and
it actually dissects the many, many fantastic

774
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:28.079
claims. Judith Arry Baker, in
her own words, thank you for all

775
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:30.480
the great information. Wow the US
expressed by callers schools. There anyone else

776
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:32.320
who happens to get on the air
who jelly dot com? If you not

777
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:36.880
necessarily reflect viviews of jelly dot com
or jum O'Kelly, and we are not

778
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:39.719
responsible, We're in stupidity, which
might ensue plet you. In Denial The

779
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:46.480
Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks
by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a

780
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:52.639
staple of US covert operations and are
still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In

781
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Denial rips the cover off many of
them, using new files. It exposes

782
01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:00.840
things about the Bay of Pigs that
no one has ever written about before.

783
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:05.360
It shows why it really failed and
why the United States did not earn from

784
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:09.159
it. It also shows why other
countries today are doing secret operations with more

785
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:14.920
success. This is the book that
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786
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:22.039
light. In Denial, Secret Wars
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787
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:25.719
more information, go to Larry hyphen
Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy

788
01:01:25.800 --> 01:02:45.559
of In denial at Amazon dot com
in digital or physical force. Let him

789
01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:57.159
know, let her know, let
no got to let them know. I'm

790
01:02:57.239 --> 01:03:02.559
bringing all shot. Let the tar
Rocks ballout at the drut show. I'm

791
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:07.760
bringing all shot, lock of care
rots the ball lot at the drug shows.

792
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The Wings method, the world's worst
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it's two thousand something and buckets back
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Com. Revelation through conversation? Do
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were never taught in schools? Why
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Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike
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that'll open your eyes to events that
led up to this. Why the Vietnam

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War, Nuclear Bombs in nation Building
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sixty one. Get your copy today
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War by author Mike Swanson