I've got a good friend of mine he thinks the whole thing with Bigfoot as
a hopes. I'm not going to argue with him. But you know when
the phenomena is worldwide, and how things like the Last Day of the Russians
and the Yetty and you got the year, and you know all these other
names for the same creature, and they all say the same thing, that
they'd like to kidnap women and children or whatever. When you hear these stories
and it's based worldwide, you have to scratch your head, nesk, and
you look at the little people like Iusa. Are there otherWe just reported Leprechauns
or these other entities like Tommy Knockers and others are around the world, And
a lot of people just disregard those things. And I think what you really
have to do is apply yourself to look into it. And a lot of
people won't do that. Either they're afraid or they're just they don't care.
It doesn't affect in that until it happens in them. And I've filled it
thousands of pote calls in the last twenty years. And I used to get
a lot of emails and things and talk to people and there's really funny,
man. The one line, ohs her for people. I didn't believe in
this stuff until keyword, until it happened to me, and just like you
and me, and so now here we are on a podcast together talking about
this stuff. And my whole thing is the reason I'm on your podcast is
I want people to know there's people like you and me that have had these
experiences. And they may laugh, That's okay. I don't care laugh at
me. Laugh all you what, when it happened to you, you'll be
a believer. I'd like to welcome Ron Cross to Bigfoot Crossroads. Ron crossed
my path or I crossed his path fairly recently. On Facebook, of all
places, Ron started a group I believe you started the group Strange Oklahoma,
which is booming, and of course caught my attention, being from Oklahoma and
being into anything strange, I had to check it out and wow, man,
what a great resource, not just for Oklahoma but everywhere. No,
I'd agree with you. Actually it was Annalie Judd that started it, and
I made a post on the page, and I guess, you know,
a lot of the things I said makes sense. Of course, you know
my background, I home to certification im pir psychology and had been investigating the
paranormal for well over forty years now, and so I could answer people.
And I've always been a person likes to help people, not all about me.
But I'm just telling you a little bit, so your listeners who understand.
So I do emergency management stuff and search and rescue. I'm a certain
instructor search stands for emergent or community Emergency response team, and so I do
that, and I do that as an instructor for the state and hold classes
and teach people about cert and what they need to do to be prepared for
disasters. And so it's part of my nature not to get out there and
help people. And so I started answering questions and I grew up, you
know, my whole life since about four having these paranormal experiences. So I
also investigated Oklahoma City bombing and tried to get the truth out there, a
lot of things. We could have a whole show on that, but we
want is it safe to talk about that yet? Well, you can now
that there's a lot of stuff that's been removed off of the Internet about what
really happened and the things I know and so a lot of people that information
is trickled down, So a lot of people, just like the JFK assassination,
they're asking questions, and there's a lot of questions aren't easily answered,
like all the one car accidents that people that saw things during that time with
JFK and having heart attacks and so there's these things are coming out, you
know, and so people are asking questions, and sometimes it's years and years
later. Most people are wrapped up in things like ballgames and another entertainment instead
of being educated, so they get wrapped up in the set. They don't
think it affects them, but later it does. And then somebody presents a
question somewhere and people get to look at it and go, you know,
that's really seems odd and it's not correct, So I want to look into
it. So in that page, that Facebook page, that's exactly what I
started doing. It's answering questions. And of course with all the experience that
I have, even working with Dennis hook or how he was a a consultant
for the movie White Noise in two thousand and five, and so he kind
of mentored me along the way, and I took some courses and anyway,
So he kind of helped me out with some of my stuff and answered a
lot of questions. And so I knew in time that he basically said,
well, Ron, I guess you're on your own. And I'm like,
what does that mean? So I found out quickly that in some cases that
there were things I knew about that he hadn't engaged in, and so I
had to find my own path, so to speak. And so, yeah,
I do a lot of things to try to help people, and it's
not because of my ego. Nobody on that site. Just so you know,
on Strange notice anything about my website, I don't promote it. I
don't promote myself. I just talk about that. I let people know my
background so they can either respect for me or not. But you can't argue
with the facts. And as you see when I put a post on Strange
Oklahoma, I refer quite often to critical thinking and looking at people like Victor
Zama, who was a twenty five year attorney or i'll say, who's retired
now. And so he was in New Zealand, I believe, and for
twenty five years who studied the paranormal and the question of life after death,
and so that led into a bunch of things that people just don't know.
And so he explained it, and he worked with people like Rodov, who
was the one that discovered will say and brought it to the people that were
researching the paranormal was scientists, and Ron out Of himself was a scientist,
and then George Meeks same thing, he's a scientist. And so these guys
worked with this stuff and they figured out there's all kinds of things that where
the voices could potentially come from, and that science can't explain it, and
so they all like to talk about it. And you know, when you
talk to somebody about parapsychology, the first thing typical lay out of their mouth
is this, well, you know, that's a pseudoscience. And Matt,
you and I understand it when you talk about science that you have to have
all the factors. Well, so somebody from the fifteenth century to walk in
the room, you flipped the switch and the light came on, they would
think that's a form of magic, but they don't understand what's really happening here
with all the relay wires and the connections, and that there's a power plant
and that power's being generated and sent down the line and etc. Or center,
so they just know that you flipped that switch from all of a sudden,
we have this light on, and so it's the same thing. We
don't know all the factors in parapsychology. We just know that there's people that
are out there that are mediums and psychics and others that have this gift and
we don't understand it. So science can never really study it. So what
do they call it pseudoscience because they don't have all the factors. Yeah,
that's something I talk about quite often as a matter of fact. Fairly recently,
I've mentioned it a few times about how whenever it comes to this sort
of thing, the paranormal, whatever you want to label it as, it's
just a matter of we don't have the right tools or instrumentation to really document
it and measure it, which is what science pretty much requires before it starts
acknowledging things specifically as fact. And there's just things here that we know that
they happen. That's undeniable. It's just being able to put it in a
box and study it. That's the part that we can't do. I used
to think replication was a huge factor. But actually, now that I'm older,
I've seen so many things happen time and time again. I don't even
think repeating things is that difficult anymore in some situations. No, I agree
with each and completely. That's why I said they call it pseudoscience advissity.
They don't have that full understanding. And you know, I've seen psychic and
medium walk into a room or a location and I would I wouldn't give them
the address. They knew nothing except hours before maybe you know, to get
there. And they would walk in and they would have names. There's no
way they've kind of gotten information on specifically things that happened at that location,
would just say involving the Dark Arts, and they would know, and they
would know the minimum condition of the person that did it and the things that
they would do. And you're just it's like, there there must be something
that they're reading from. I mean, how do even if all the information
they presented they could remember it all, you know, And so they walk
in and they describe everything to a tea, whether it's a spirit that we're
investigating or some something more. You know, along the dark Arts would know
these things. And so when you see that you have to ask those questions.
And why is it that a lot of people think that psychics aren't real
because they don't know the facts of being hidden from them. And I think
that on an educational level, I dare say that they don't want to talk
about this stuff an educational level because somebody who's going to scribe your head raise
your hand and say, well, professor, we're paying you how much running
and you're supposed to know this stuff, and you don't, And so they're
not going to talk about it. And nobody wants to talk about it.
And even from a religious standpoint, a lot of that stuff we don't understand,
so it must come from the dark side. But what I've seen is
a lot of times these gifts, if you want to call them, that
these abilities are being used for the good of the people. And I've experienced
that more than once. I would work with a psychic who's working presently with
believe it or not, the military and law enforcement and so even the Catholic
Church, and so I have a conversation with her, and I'll take her
to a location if it's really bad things going on in the words to say,
and I don't know how she knows that. I don't know how she
does, and she comes up with stuff. In one incident, my better
half was with me then and this person was telling me things, and she
said, Ron, go inside this closet and look on the floor, and
there's candle wax there. And so it was kind of a little little closet
that wasn't finished and you could use the store. So I opened the door
and there's no light in there. So I shined the flashlight and I said,
I'm not seeing it. And so she leaning out and she's tapping on
the wall. She said, no, rad, it's right here and it's
red. Now. She'd never been in the house, never went into that
room. We all went upstairs together. I walked in there further and guess
what, you know what happened that red candi wax exactly where she said?
How can she know? How do they know? And it's these abilities that
you really have to question and and and a lot of people don't have that
experience are they think it's all fake. But once you have those experience,
whether it's Bigfoot or somebody else something else like a cryptit or a ghost or
alaien, whatever, then you begin to understand so in my book and the
way I see it, you're walking down this long tunnel, and the closer
you get to the interests of the unknown, the more you understand. But
once you step into that that uh, that clearing from that tunnel, you
realize how big that that failed really is, so to speak, if that
makes sense. Something I also talk about quite often is the amount of overlap
whenever it comes to this stuff, and how it's almost like once the light
switch is flipped on, your entire world changes. Very rarely do I talk
to somebody about their particular encounter, whether it be bigfoot or paranormal or whatever.
After talking to them about their initial encounter, I ask, is there
anything else that you've encountered besides this? And just about every time, yes,
there is, and it's usually paranormal, ENCRYPTID and UFOs. It usually
runs the gambit. There's oftentimes an entire lifetime filled with these sort of experiences,
something that I personally can attest to for myself. You know, I
was experiencing paranormal things at a very young age, and my life has just
been filled with that sort of activity on a pretty regular basis. And I
heard you mentioned that you also started having paranormal experience is at a very early
age. Is that kind of what urged you to become an investigator? Well,
then I'll say this, I'm a twin and fortunately my twin brother he
experienced a lot of the same things that I did, so I had somebody
that could say, this is what really happened. But my first experience that
I remember, I was about four years old or so, and we lived
on the edge of town is Escandido, California. My dad was in the
Navy, and we had a larger, older house and we had the big
i'll callum bay windows that were really at bay windows, but we'll use that.
And so I woke up and I looked outside, and I would describe
it as a hat man. He was very tall, i'd say maybe seven
feet now, and he had a black hat and a kind of a cape
on, and the whole was black. I couldn't see his face, but
I could see his eyes and it glowed red. And so the next morning
I was kind of scared, and I told my mom, well, being
that we lived on the edge of the town, she told me it was
a hoodoo. So I would hear the owls and somehow in mind at fourty
years old. There's association there to hoodows and this red eyed creature. Whatever
I saw were the same thing, and so that was my first real paranormal
experience. And then from them we moved and the house we moved into,
we didn't have much activity. But my biological dad died in nineteen seventy one,
and after he died, then all these things started happening. Of course,
at that time I didn't know that. It was years later that I
knew he died, and so my brother, my twin brother, and I
started experiencing things like these little lanterns that we had back in those days,
and it looked like an old coal owning lanner ink or something, you know
that the people had the coal mines and hanging on their porch and that you
know, people had used back in you know, eighteen we'll say sixties and
fifty somewhere there, and so it looked like one of those little old lamps
things and it would come on by itself. We had two of them.
They'd come on by themselves and there had to be a switch. And so
we had a lot of activity. Actually had the spirit grab us and shake
our legs and man. We were terrified at the beginning, and so it
lasted a year, but we grew past the tarra because we realize nothing bad
is happening to us. It's it's like a meaningful play, like shaking your
arm in your hand. And one time, I can tell you that this
is gonna sound crazy, I don't care. And so this object, when
you think about it, this this entity reached through the covers and grabbed me
and shaking my leg. So I grabbed its arm right. It was a
huge in hand. I could feel it and I just started filling it and
I put my both of my wrists together or fingers around that wrist, and
I thought, ah, you're not getting away this time. And it just
pulled right through my hand, just right through my hands, not by force,
but just through my hand. And I got to thinking about it and
said, whatever this is can reach through solid and then grab me right and
the same thing that happened to my brother and grab me and shake me and
it's solid, but then I can feel it solid, but then it's it's
able to go right through my hand. I mean, it just doesn't make
any sense whatsoever. And it wasn't just once that's this kind of thing happened
to me, you know, and so we learned not to be scared anymore.
And so I think in many cases I wanted to learn. So any
anytime I could get a book that had some type of relevant parentlemal stuff,
and it goes to whatever, I would do it. I would read it.
I'd watch all the shows back during that time that was on TV,
you know, and so I studied them, and you know, I just
grew along the way I got older, old enough to drive, I was
still studying the paranormal and reading books, readers, digest articles, whatever I
could get my hands on. My mom would buy me books like Into the
Unknown and other books, and so I read it. I did a lot
of reading, and I learned. And so when we got old enough to
have our own cars, my brother and I would go out to the cemeteries
and I saw a show on eed P. Of course, I don't I
don't know if they knew that term back an, because you know, knowledge
wasn't as broad as it is today. And so they would go out,
these guys were ghost standards. They'd go out with the tape recorder and you
need to use a microphone on an old tape recorder, you know, and
so you would. I would at these these tape recorders on people's grave,
and it was a grave site in the middle of nowhere, so basically we'll
just call it, for practical term, abandoned. So i'd leave it.
And of course, back then, most of the tapes only had thirty minutes
that you could tape on, and so I would go and pick that recorder
up, drive off and then come back, you know, twenty thirty minutes
later whatever, and get the tape recorder and go home and listen to it.
And sometimes I would hear voices, but I couldn't hear them very clearly,
and of course I didn't know what I do now that you learn it
along the way, and so that was kind of my first experiences. And
then I was on the news channel here in Oklahoma City with Robin Marsh I
knew here from back in the day, and she had us on there and
our team and we did an investigation at Channel NIZE news here in Oklahoma City,
and so she interviewed us and we talk about it back in our days
that my brother and I would go out and put the recorders out on the
grade and She's like, I didn't know you guys did that. Yep,
we did. So. Anyways, just hearing your experiences as a kid and
thinking about some of the things that I experienced myself that got me interested in
the paranormal, doing the same thing you're talking about, watching all the shows,
getting my hands on any books I could find, trying to learn as
much as I could about what I was experiencing so I could try to understand
it. Little did I know, you know, that would become a lifelong
pursuit of mine. But yeah, back then, EVPs, I don't think
it was really a studied thing other than just setting out a tape recorder and
you know, listened for the disembodied voices and everything. But back then it
had a very scientific approach. I guess it still kind of does. But
I just remember being fascinated by all the different very intelligent and scientific minded people
studying the phenomens that were taking place, and I just always thought they were
going to figure it out, you know, that surely they're going to figure
all this stuff out, and it just never happened. Well, let's just
say this, I'm an old man now, And so with that said,
it was studied back in the fifties and by Jurgensen, who basically put out
a recorder trying to catch these sounds of a bird. And so when he
did, he found voices, and so he began to investigate. Now this
guy's a scientist too, so what he did, he's investigating the voices and
captured literally thousand. At one point he realized it was his dead mother was
speaking to him, so he bought it, brought it to the attention of
Constantine rawd Eye, and Constantine Rawdye is the one that really got into it
as well. So now they're kind of teamed up. And Rod I Wassum
his unstudied and so Rowdeye was part of the Catholic Church, and he knew
they had did these experience experiments in Faraday cages where I don't know, if
you know anything about radio maham operator to general class of new emergen communications as
well. And so with that said, a fair day cave is to block
all signals because when people started hearing the voices, quite often they say the
stupidest things. It's funny, they'll do anything to come up with anything to
explain it, and it's like, no, we're not capturing radio signals on
voice recorders. It just doesn't work that way. And of course those were
tape recorders, big tape recorders, and we have one when I was a
kid, and it was really real tape. And so he's actually done an
album out that he put out of these voices that Rod I captured and some
of the dead people that he knew that were on the side communicating with them,
and what they did. They went and studied those voices and ran them
through analyzes and figured out that maybe later on figured out that it's a ninety
eight to ninety nine percent of a match. Wow, And that's close enough
where government work. So when I go back to those times when I'm doing
the thing with the taper order, I saw it on the show, but
we just didn't have that technology to get all this information out. And if
you aren't digging and looking in the right place like a pot of gold,
you're not going to know. You're just going to know. This is a
phenomenon that happens, but nobody knew it was EVP. And so now that
phenomenon has taken off in are worldwide researchers. And I studied under Dennis House
and I learned a lot from him, and he's written some books and things.
He's sent me a couple and I sent him a ghost box, and
back to the whole thing. I had a conversation with him and I said,
well, Dennis, have your war work with a ghost box. And
of course, back then, what they would do is you would buy this
certain radio, a radio shock, and go and clip the wire whatever,
constantly scan and then set a tip recorder up and whatever. And I can
tell you how I did it, but I want for details. But anyways,
so he said no, and so I said, well, give me
your address and I'm going to send you a ghost box and we'll talk about
these results, the results. So I sent him the ghost box and he
sent me a couple of his books. They read. In fact, I
think i've got one right here. Let me go back in my chair,
and it's called Haunted Places. Yeah, so people can go look it up
and it's a national directory, so if you want something that's interesting, you
know it's a good book to read. So he sent me both one here
from the US and I think World Wire or in Europe, so yeah,
people know about it. And he was the consultant for the movie White Noise.
I don't know if you knew that. Yeah, yeah, I snagged
up that movie as soon as it came out. As a little kid talking
about, you know, using tape recorders and everything that was I was always
trying to you know, I'm a little kid in the eighties, so I'm
trying to like, you know, put together my own equipment. And eventually
that that, you know, got a little more advanced in the nineties.
But one of the first things I did was get a bunch of walkman's and
tear them all apart and try to connect all the magnetic tape heads together and
wire them into one unit where I could, you know, turn that on
and listen with headphones for any clicks or tapping on the magnetic heads, you
know, might be a ghost trying to communicate. Very young mind trying to
put together the pieces. Yeah, and that's what you do. I mean,
when you get curious enough, you know. And that's my whole thing.
And that's why, you know, Stranger Oklahoma, that group continues to
grow because I'm not saying that I'm an expert, but I'm there to help
people. I do have a lot of experience, personal and otherwise, you
know. And my twin brother and I once all the commantion word is Nune
of Pede for the little people. And so we grew up in southwest Oklahoma,
and we were Indian students in school. My dad he was Cherokee,
and anyway, so I got to talk to a lot of Indians about their
experiences with the paranormal and their beliefs and what they call the hairman a wild
man most often you know, bigfoot and the nunipede. So, you know,
I tell the story, and thank god, my brother was there with
me longing and we're walking back and we've been to this pond, and on
the way back there were a lot of jack wraps just down around the Loton
area, you know, in Lowton, and so this jack rabbit jumps up
and it starts to run, and we're looking at it and we're thinking jack
row because it had happened to us dozens of time before, and this time
it was strange looking. And then all of a sudden, this black hole
opens up, we'll just call it a portal whatever, and it runs into
this portal and then it comes out the other side, and it's running a
zigzagging and we're looking at this thing. And I think we probably looked at
it maybe eight seconds or so, I don't know. And so it runs
into another portal and just vanishes. And I looked at my brother and I
said, what and the hell was that? And my brother looks at me
and he's shaking his head and he said, I don't know, man,
but it looked like a little Indian And that's exactly what I saw, and
he saw too. So, you know, I've had those experiences with cryptids
and ghosts and even Bigfoot itself. And so when I came into the group
Strange Oklahoma, I had all these experiences. What I saw was people looking
for answers, and nobody would really say anything because they really had experienced either.
But I had. When I did, I looked into it and I
got a deeper understanding. And so a lot of people back when I was
young, a lot of people you said anything about anything paranormal, especially under
the wrong circumstances, all you got was ridicule. You know, I put
up with that ridicule bull crap during Oklahoma City bombing, and I don't care.
I'll face off with any FBI agent any day, any of them because
I have the facts and you don't, and we know exactly what you did.
You lied about the evidence and you covered up, and you wouldn't even
get the right people to come to the trials that had evidence. You never
let those people testify. I'll go records saying that, and so we know.
And so I have that attitude that I'm not going to be pushed around
and I'm not going to be intimidated by people because I know what I saw.
I'm sorry you didn't see it. You don't have the facts. And
that's why I really began to study and help people, and so that's why
the site continues to grow, because I want those people to come there and
feel safe and give their testimony of whatever happened to them. I can't say
some of them aren't lying, or maybe they're not telling you truth, but
I would say that if you're going to do that and go on record and
tell a lie and then everybody else knows it after that, you're a liar.
And I can tell you, Matt, my dad, I'm also a
thirty second degree Mason. He was a Mason. He's also an Indian,
and he told me, Son, the only thing that you have in life,
that's really worth a damn is your word. And so a many my
Indian friends it was the same thing. If they gave you their word,
that's all they really had. And so you gave your word and you stuck
by your word, and you didn't change your mind. And if you know
the facts and you have the facts, you're never going to change your mind.
You're not going to run in and be intimidated by all the other people.
Well, you know, Matt, I stood up to all those other
people. I stood up to the intelligence agencies that have been lying to us,
and I've never backed down and I'm not going to them. And that's
my whole promise now, is that I want people to feel comfortable with these
experiences and feel free to share them. And so that's why that page Matt
is growing, because they want to share, they want a story to be
heard. And so I listened to them. And if I can respond and
tell them, you know what, I've heard this story before, it makes
people feel better. It's not like it was back in the sixties and seventies,
where if you told somebody you saw UFO, you know that people would
laugh at you. Now it's it's an accepted thing. We know there will,
we know that the Phoenix lights happened, and all kinds of other arabinents
out there. So that's that's my whole stance, and that's why that page
continues to grow, and I'm going to see to it. So have you
had a big foot sighting or a big foot encounter? Yes, I've had
two in my life. I was, actually I can't I won't say exactly
where, but i'll tell you close to El Reno, and I was with
the Shy and Rappah tribe, and of course, you know, i'll call
them brothers and sisters. They were telling me things will just end the Indian
level, and so I knew they weren't lying to me. I just knew,
you know, because they're giving you their word and they're all saying the
same thing, so you know it's got to be true, you know.
And so we were at this one location and there was a road that went
through and I walked down the road and there was a light shining on the
road and a street lamp. And so I walked down there probably eighty yards
and I saw something we'll just call it, well say bigfoot. It was
crossing the road and it was a two lane highway map and in three steps,
three steps across that road. Now you tell me what human being can
cross a two lane road in three steps. And when I saw it,
I saw the bottom half first, and because of the shadows, I couldn't
see the top half, but I saw the bottom and it moved in that
that I couldn't see the bottom because now in the shadows that I saw the
top and I can tell you it was a bipedal humanoid. And then the
next time I saw it was probably about six months ago. I was coming
home at night, about two thirty in the morning, and I saw one
next to a tree, and it caught my attention, probably second and half.
And this one, the one I saw was I'm going to get dark
colored. The first one. The second one I saw was gray, and
I'm going to estimate that it was probably ten to maybe twelve feet tall.
And it didn't scare me one bed. I've never been scared by a bigfoot
or some crypted. But anyways, when it turned, I could see it's
back. When it turned to the side to step behind this tree kind of
go around it. You know, my headlights are on it. And when
I saw it, Matt. His side was almost three foot wide. And
I'm a hunter, you know, I've taken gun smoothing courses and other things
and worked at a gun store, and I've heard hunters say when they saw
one of these creatures that I don't know, you with the thirty out six,
it's considered them all around good, not the best, but all the
wund going. You know, I wouldn't really recommend it for big bear,
you know, Kodiak or something good probably, But anyways, these these people,
you know, they're hunting milk and stuff, and they've always said the
same thing. If I were to shoot it, I don't think i'd have
enough gun. And when I saw that thing turn, I knew at that
point in town that this thing was a whole lot bigger than I ever thought.
So I've seen them twice, and I had experience with going back in
the eighties whistling and threw something large and incret so I think another one too.
But anyways, yeah, so I've had experiences with them UFO down to
Loton probably eighty one, maybe eighty two, maybe a little earlier someone that
time frame. We're outside with my friends and my mom. The police scanner,
so she knew every time you got stopped to the police, not that
it was that frequent, but she knew everything going on in Lot and some
of the little towns around there. And so she come out and said,
hey, boys, do you see that red light in the sky. So,
yeah, I've seen there twice, you know, two or three nights,
I can't remember. But anyways, it was a reported UFO that a
lot of people saw, and they actually scrambled wider jets from Altus Air Force
Base there. And so, you know, I've had those experiences seeing some
red lights in the sky that I can't explain. I've never seen a little
green man or entity like that. But do I believe they exist? Absolutely.
We know there's probes that they've been taken out of people that when they
did the surge around them, the probes dug deeper into the flash. They
never developed scar tissue. And then when they analyze those probes or beacon devices
that were not in this world, they couldn't determine whatsoever what that chemical composition
or makeup was of that probe, and they they admit a frequency. So
you know, you have more questions, you know, you do answers than
the paramomal And so what I'm trying to do mat is all these people that
have questions, have experiences they want to question that. They want to make
sure that it happened. Could this happen? And you know, I've worked
with some producers in Hollywood at times called me for consultation and advice, and
I won't name any of them, but anyways, they would come up with
the most ridiculous things for stories that they wanted to tell on one of your
shows, and would ask me ridiculous things like, Okay, so if you're
living in your house and you have all the furniture in that room, and
that furniture can't be moved out of that room except in pieces, Can I
go through the wall? Absolutely? It can amport We don't know, you
know, they would ask all these questions to just take it to the extreme.
You know. It's just like all these things combined together happen at once,
and that's what sells. And a lot of those shows, that's what
sells. They have to have that embellishment so people will be really interested.
And so I've seen take people out at and take pictures and they get orbs
which are ninety nine point nine percent of the time, it's going to be
bugs or dust. There's billions and billions and trillions google plexes of dust and
bugs out there, right, So what are the chances of you getting a
real arb? Well, play the lottery, and so it's not going to
happen. It's because the light's too close to the lens, and it's that's
what how orbs are created. Even Sony put that stuff worth in their cameras
because people were getting orbs and pictures and now everybody think that they're they're they're
paranormal, and they're not. And so my whole thing is you got a
question and look for answers. And that's why that side is continuing to grow,
going back to the old school ways of you know, getting your information
through books on this subject. The evidence and story is that came through those
books, I would think would have to be like heavily researched and vetted before
they ever made it to publication. You know, this is a permanent medium
that's going to last forever. You know, if I put something in my
book and then it turns out it's easily debunked or something I'm ruined in the
field. But the Internet allows anybody to post any evidence that they want to,
and they're like, you're saying, just a flood of it constantly every
day. Do you think that social media and the internet has helped the paranormal
field or heard it? I think both. Anything's good is bad too.
You know, back in the when I had a book from the seventies eighties,
Into the Unknown, there's a story in near about these girls that have
pictured of berries and they wouldn't shy away from their stories. But later in
life they admitted it was all a hoax. And it was the same thing
with the Lockanus monster. This guy had this thing in the lake, I
guess, and he could raise it up and people all of a sudden have
a sighting of the Locknus monster. So does that validate the point that it's
all fake? No, all it is is is there are people that are
going to fake it. There's people out there they're going to fake footprints.
But you know, when you get to studying the evidence on Bigfoot, and
you see that these footprints are massive, bigger than the human footprint, and
nobody need to walk around barefooted anyways, And you see how far those footprints
are pushed down into the ground. It's going to take something that at least
will say, eight hundred to fifteen hundred pounds to do that. And a
human can't do that. A human can't do that unless you're gonna walk out
in the woods, put some metal plate there and then pound it in the
ground with a hammer. I mean, come on, who's going to fake
that? Yeah, and then you would see that. Like you know about
the mid charlesar of breaking a bigfoot, the break there, nobody knew about
that. You know, people like Jeff Muldram and other people that are firm
believed in a bigfoot. And as far as I know, Meldrum never saw
one. But he's seen the evidence and that's all we have. And so
I'll tell you, Matt, the best evidence of anybody who went to experience
the paranormal EVP you go back and you look, and like I said,
these voices can be collected anywhere, anytime. So if you get an EVP
from somebody's house doesn't mean it's hot it because I can get them in my
house. I can go outside and get them. Now, maybe it's going
to be they never may maybe not, but there are like you talked about
pops and clicks and things that you learn to recognize. And one of the
things that Rona had said that people that have a propensity with music and basically
radio operators like have radio operators a two way communication. I'm one of those
people. You have a propensity you have to listen sometimes and pick things up.
And so you developed that ear. Wow developed the ear before I wasn't
have radio operator. But what I'm getting at is people disregard a lot of
the information that's out there. They don't use critical thinking. That's the biggest
I'll say filming that most people have. I've got a good friend of mine
he thinks the whole thing with big book as a hopes. I'm not going
to argue with him. But you know, when the phenomena is worldwide and
how things like you know the Last Day, the Russians and the Yetty,
and you got the YearIn and you know all these other names for the same
creature and they all say the same thing that they'd like to kidnap women and
children or whatever. And you know, when you hear these stories and it's
based worldwide, you have to scratch your head, ask and you look at
the little people like I saw. Are there other one? Yes, we
reported leprechauns or these other entities like Tommy Knockers and others are around the world,
and a lot of people just disregard those things. And I think what
you really have to do is apply yourself and look into it. And a
lot of people won't do that. Either they're afraid or they're just they don't
care. It doesn't affect in that until it happens in them. And I've
filled it thousands of phone calls in the last twenty years. You looked at
my website, you can see it's been up for you know, twenty years
now. And I used to get a lot of emails and things and talk
to people. And there's really funny, man here the one line I always
hurt from people. I didn't believe in this stuff until keyword, until it
has happened to be until and just like you and me, and so now
here we are on a podcast together talking about this stuff. And my whole
thing is the reason I'm on your podcast is I want people to know there's
people like you and me that have had these experiences. And they may laugh,
that's okay. I don't care laugh at me, laugh all you want,
but when it happened to you, you'll be a believer. And so
my question is back to these people in my mind when I'm talking to I'm
thinking, you know, it's funny. You have millions and millions of these
reports in history, right, but you didn't believe any of it, none
of it. It was all fake. It was all lies until it happened
to you. Now, all these other people that you were calling liars or
whatever, you want me to believe you right and not believe what they said.
Yeah, it's just ludicrous. So I just laugh. If we applied
the same logic that they had previous to that one point in their life,
yep, they wouldn't care for it very much. But like someone before me,
much smarter than myself, said, out of all those things, it
only takes one to be true. Only one person has to be right and
really experience what they experienced, and it changes everything. And that's the thing.
When people experience a paranormal it's going to change your life. And you
know, I can tell you come back to the bombing. It really changed
my life. And we made the connections with Oklahoma City and nine to eleven
and the wholesale and it really changed a lot of things and opened up a
lot of people's eyes, but they didn't know, they didn't know the connections,
and it was hidden from them. And so that's what I'm getting at.
We're trying to get the unknown realized by people it they'll just simply apply
critical thinking. And so when people come on that post, one of the
things that I post about new members always have that link about Victor Zamba and
a guy's a twenty five year well who retired and then investigated the paranormal for
twenty five years, as I recall, So if you want to argue with
me, go read his stuff first, then come back, because I'm not
going to recap it with you and argue with you when you don't know the
points. And I make it very clear when people come to me and ask
me a questions about the Oklahoma City bombing and they have this theory, I
tell him I sup with that. I say, no, I don't want
to hear it. I've heard it all. Let me tell you what you
don't know and then you can talk. But other than that, you need
to listen first because you don't know the facts. You've been lying to,
Like you said, an entire show could be dedicated to that stuff, because
you and I both, I mean we lived it. We were here,
you know. Yeah, and there's a lot of strange situation surrounding that whole
catastrophe. Yeah, no matter how you look at it, We'll give you
one that people should should realize that people don't know. And that was Ernest.
This took and lint of Lina Tyree, I believe from the Governor's office,
not the governor, but DA's office, Bob Macy's. I recall,
we're standing in front of the Murror building and they had two deputy shares with
them, and Ernest this took, says to Atlanta Tyree. We knew about
this on the ninth How they let it happen? And so the deputy sheriffs
later wrote affidavias. Why would they put their names on that paper? Ruin
their career? Right, Yeah, So that's a that's a that's a thinking
point. I put it out. I'll to a bunch of people and other
things like i'mium Gye trade and the whole thing. And I worked with General
Pardon and he designed a smart bombs or military I just called them, sir
there was other people involved that had a military background. Was working for twenty
twenty did the free part Seria documentary on Oklahoma City bombing, and somebody from
the White House we won't mention names, but it was during the Clinton era
called ABC and said, quote, do not play that documentary. It'll ruin
the American people's faith in the government. So you tell me, So,
let's get to some haunted stuff. You've done a lot, You've done a
lot of investigations. What's the most active place you've ever visited? Well,
if I had to say on a continual basis, you know, it's always
over time, but probably Fort Reno, and that's something that's public you can
go to. I used to do the ghost tours there. Very active.
I don't know why. Sometimes mat you have to have the right people there
to activate the happenings. We'll just say, you know, trigger person or
object and so I know my side when I had it Baron Guthrie that if
we had we'll say eighty female or more, the place was very very active.
When we did not so active, And so you just have to be
there at the right time. I always tell people what contings you have to
consider when you read about them, try to find out, you know,
who is experience and activity? Is it men? Is women? Is it
children? And so same thing at Port Reno, there were ports that a
lot of kids, perhaps in her mom's car, parents car, would what
they would term it was a house there. It's on the north end of
it, and it was a better built house. And the house was built
with her father's materials being sent to her to construct that house better than the
average house. And anyways, in that house, quite often kids are seen
by their children waving at them as they go by, a particularly little girl.
And so, yeah, I've seen ghosts in that house as well.
We're inside investigating. That will not let you in there anymore. So for
those of you looking for thrills, that's not going to happen. They've beamed
the place and say it's not that it's falling apart, but all the lead
pain and EPA stuff, And so we used to go in there and investigate.
But I saw a female in a light colored dress, it was pretty
dark standing on the stairs. Just I looked up in there she was and
I thought it was one of my people, but it wasn't. So I
had I think by people there investigating, and all of a sudden, I
look, I'm talking to somebody who so I'm trying to get her to turn
around and see, and of course is always the ghost disappears, and about
that time is she turns around, somebody else comes down the stairs or in
the little hallway again and says, hey, well, what are you just
on the stairs. So they saw her too, So two of us saw
her, and so it's pretty active. So yeah, so there are some
active places around Fort Reno. The cemetery, there's stories about people seeing a
lady in wide in the trees, maybe an angel. Again, I think
mostly children see her. They say, if you take your hat off going
into the cemetery, you may feel somebody, you know, patch you on
your back, particularly if you're a man. Uh. There are some interesting
graves out there. One of them is weak in Law. Uh so we
and then C a M and then law and you know it's a Chinese name,
but that was not his real name. I don't know what his real
name was and if anybody does, but he was killed there at the fort
and anyways, uh, he's uh, he's a notable there. Ben I
can't think of his name. Rod Off the hand. He was an He
worked as an Indian scout with the h the cavalry back in the day.
So there's there's some pretty notable people at the cemetery they were buried. But
well you will find is that most of the people buried that cemetery there fort
Reno were women and children. And then they have an annex to the cemetery
for Italian and uh German po ws And so I did. I've done a
lot of e VP work in the in fort Reno. And one of the
times I went, and I was with a female and she had been in
the army and so she could speak some German, and so uh she said
something to him and UH said goodbye in German, and I guess it's short
word for choose, And of course I speak a little German. My grandfather
on my mom's side, he was Amish and he used to go out to
el Reno, fort Reno, back in the day, to fart lay from
where they lived in the farm, and he would speak to the German POW's
and a lot of them were just conscripts, you know. They were there
to fight and were captured and they realized it couldn't go anywhere and anyway,
it's long, sort of short, so I know a little bit of German,
and you know, on the recording, we got the word choose.
So we went to another place later that day to investigate, and we were
talking about the EVP that I've got at Fort Reno, and all of a
sudden, that same voy shows a ninety miles away on that recorder choose.
And that's not the first time that's happened. And that's why I'm saying,
when you get involved in this stuff, Matt, you don't realize what it
really leads into, and you're gonna have these mind blowing events. And I've
seen that happen more than once, where we start talking about an EMVP we
got somewhere and all of a sudden show back up and I don't know how
that happens. I can't tell you, but it happens. Oklahoma is well
known, at least by the residents that live here, for it's just a
place that has all kinds of legends and myths and folklore surrounding the entire state.
Pretty Much everywhere you go you can find something, and one of the
more famous things is the legend of cry Baby Bridge. Which I'm sure by
this point every state has a cry baby bridge. I'm yeah, at least
one. Have you ever investigated one where you actually found anything to report?
Well, let me tell you this. There's an experiment. When you get
time, look it up. It's called fill Up the Ghost, and I
posted it here on Strange and a lot of people are going to look at
it. But let's just say this that it's almost like people can create a
haunting. And then there was a whole thing. So they made up this
whole story about Philip the Ghost from you know, living from whatever years to
what Gary died. I think he committed suicide, and they tried to contact
Philip the ghost, and accordingly, of course there were tricksters, and of
course they did everything they could, and it was an experiment to keep the
tricksters from doing their tricks. So, you know, could it happen,
Yes, there's always going to be somebody that beats the system. But they
had all the wraps and tacks and pangs on the walls and levitation of the
table and other what people would call paranormal activity. So here's the question.
Was it the trick of the people doing something that they got over on the
people conducting the experiment or was it telekinesis being that they all had their minds
focused on it. Could that be the answer? I don't know, but
these are the Again, when you start studying parapsychology, you're typically always going
to come up with more questions than you have answers. And that's because of
all the unknown. And so that's again going back to it. A lot
of people don't like to talk about it, or the learning people that are
being paid agaback to teach our kids, you know in schools called universities,
they don't want to talk about that stuff because they have they don't have the
answers, and so they do through it. And I don't know. I
don't I don't have the answers, but I sure have a lot of questions.
You know, have you investigated any possession cases. I'll tell you that
case very very long ago. My brother and I investigated the case where a
lady had the daughter had played with a Ouiji board and that just brought all
kinds of things in and it got to the point that culminated the kind of
in Texas that they woke up and all the windows and doors were open,
wide them told me this story, and it was so cold in the house
you could you know, it should be ninety five degrees outside, you know,
in the summer more I don't know, but it was so cold to
the house that you could see your breath. And so they moved Oklahoma to
get away from all this. And these things follow people, you can't get
away from them, and things started against So she wanted me to come over
to investigate. So me and my brother did. It's a real interesting story.
I don't tell it very often, I'll tell you. And so we
went over. Investigator took a tape recorder and asked some questions. We didn't
have a tools that we had. Then we got no evidence whatsoever. But
here's the key. The daughter's name was Daniela. I remember that, and
when we went into the house, I didn't say a word. But in
my dreams, she's not the girl of my dream so to be caw.
But anyways, in my dreams, her and I were running from something that
seemed to be on our heels, like a pack of dogs, and so
we knew we couldn't get away from it. So what we had to do
is try to delay them. If that makes sense like, hey, let's
put this here. They got to go over and go around, and it's
gonna buy us a little bit of time, you know. And I had
those dreams, I don't know how many times with her and my dreams,
and then when I saw her face, the dreams came back, and I
knew that something was going on, and so I didn't word about brother,
and so we left and h I called this to mind, who was a
pastor's name was Pastor Kenny, and he'd added in the near death experience left
his body debt for fifteen minutes. Incredible story. And so I called him
and I told him what was going on, and he knew about these things,
and he knew about angels and demons, you know, per san account,
we'll just say. And so he told me, said, well,
we'll go back in two weeks and do a blessing on that at home.
And I'm thinking, you know, this is something we need to do now.
It's immediate. It's sooner than better, you know. And so I
don't know why he gave us a two week period at that time. I
do now though, I now know by handling these cases, you know.
And so we plan the day and I set the time of whatever, and
after that, all these things started happening to my brother and I like our
clocks being sent back. We were here like heavy breathing in a room.
You're terrified footsteps even though it's carpet, you know. And so this happened.
And so I can't tell you at what point you know this is?
This is forty years ago more now. And so at this point this angel
appeared to my brother, okay, and he spoke, I call his name
Yoshua. That's his real name in Hebrew. Yes, sure, and there
is no Jane Hebrew. But anyway, so this angel appeared and greeted him
in the name of the Yoshua. And then this scolded book appeared in his
hands, and in there he read I think it's Matthew twelve, where it
talks about when you cast out demons, that they go and wonder that then
dry places, and then they come back with seven more evil spirits of themselves,
and they found the place left and clean. And so the angel basically
vanished. And then the angel came to my room and told me the same
story. This is where it gets really weird, right, So I this
this angel really got me was above the feeling so like nine feet tall at
least, white robe, blonde hair, really blue eyes. He had an
aura about him, you know, and he told me not to be scared,
you know, And so he reads me that scripture is such a book.
I guess I passed out whatever, and I woke up and the first
thing in my head was that scripture. So I ran in my bottle and
opened it up. It was And so I went to tell my brother about
what happened. And he's nonchalantly listening to me, and I'm thinking this is
very important, Matt, you know. And all of a sudden, as
I start to tell him the scripture of my brother blurts out the scripture Wow.
So then I realized that he had the same encounter. So our angels
real. Yeah, it's a Bible real, you know. I'm gonna say
that there's some misinterpretations out there of it, but I think they just of
what the Bible says. That the clarity there may be a little skewed with
you know, man and traditions and writings and translations, but I think the
message is still there and he is who he says he is, And so
I follow Yoshua and I don't follow man, I'm not going I'm not going
to go to church and being doctrinated by people. You know, I'm going
to follow you, Shua And that's the whole thing. And so yeah,
I have I had those experiences absolutely. Again, my twin brother was my
witness and I was his witness, just like with the London pizza. Yeah,
we have tons of experiences. And so he's also on the page.
He doesn't do much, but his wife has had instances. She's a Pawnee
Indian and they've had skim walkers according to him. And some of the things
you sent me in this house, you know, even drew in the TV
and I have a picture of it. And on his daughter's car, same
thing had the drawns on her car and Brittany, she's now deceased, but
anyway, it's lunch story short. She died in what I'll call a young
age, and I know that was hard on my brother. And before she
did, one of the things had happened to him, not you know a
couple of years prior to that. She had these drawings on her car too,
and sent pictures to my brother and he was like, Dad, I
don't know what the heck this is? But what is it? And so
my brother's telling her and she was in Chicago when it happened. So when
you're dealing with these things, it doesn't matter where you go. You can't
run from them. And so sometimes you have to deal with these things in
life and find a way to deal with it. A lot of people that
are having trouble dealing with these things, and that's why I'm on that page.
Like I said, you get back. You know, I've investigated a
lot of things, just not the paranormal, and I've always been a truth
seeker, but the number one thing I want to do. It doesn't matter
how much truth I have if I'm not sharing it with others and making their
lives better, why would I do it? Because I want to make their
people's lives better, man, And that's why I'm on your podcast. Well,
Ron, I appreciate you coming on here and sharing some of your experiences
and some of your insight, and I'd love to have you back on again.
Man. I feel like we're just scratching the surface, you know,
in all different kinds of directions that could go on forever. But thank you
so much for coming on here and sharing my pleasure. Just reached out to
me anytime and find out as they're checking tornado sirens and working with emergency management
and doing field days or exercises or teaching surcourses. We'll get you squeezed in
and we'll make it happen. Just another day in Oklahoma, that's another day
in another life. And if you need to get a hold of Ron and
ask him a question or seek his advice on the paranormal, you can find
him on Facebook on the Strange Oklahoma group