WEBVTT

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Ready, it does appear to be
the eighteenth day of October twenty twenty three,

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according to that thing we call a
calendar. And guess what this is?

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The Ocelli effect. Here on a
Wednesday. Now, I have not

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been live on Monday because I've been
skipping Mondays and Tuesday because quite frankly,

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my back got thrown out over the
weekend trying to raise money for Dallas.

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Actually is what happened there, because
I went and worked the flea market and

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this and that. Anyway, you
guys know, I do that stuff on

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the side because I have to.
Why because this radio thing doesn't pay that

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well. Anyway, Wednesday, all
right, middle of the week. Who

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do I have with me? Well, before I get to who I have

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with me? The topic tonight is
going to be interesting, and it is

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from a perspective that you know what
you guys will be accustomed to, but

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some of you maybe not. The
figure of Franklin delanor Roosevelt, right,

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FDR interesting figure for a lot of
reasons in history. Now I have pointed

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too many of the negative aspects of
this individual. He is seen as a

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hero by certain corridors of power,
by certain political orientations in America, that's

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for sure, and definitely a dynamic
figure, right, battling his own problems,

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et cetera, et cetera. Of
course, the gee, what is

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the direct relation to Teddy Roosevelt?
Well, yeah, there's that. I

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mean a lot of things going on
with FDR. And what did he have

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to deal with besides Joseph Kennedy?
Oh wait, did I bring that up

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too soon? Probably? Anyway,
David Beato's with me. And now,

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the last time that I discussed a
book that he authored, it was TRM.

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Howard, which is funny because there's
a Roosevelt connection there, just my

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name and the TRM Howard book.
I brought this up to somebody recently actually

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regarding the lack of diversity and coverage
when it comes to civil rights leaders,

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and I said to myself, well, yeah, I don't see any mention

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of this guy in your collective work. And he is definitely a different factor,

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you know, a guy who gets
into business and this and that.

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Now we're not focusing on TRM.
Howard tonight. Although if you guys check

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it out and you go back in
the archives and you find that one and

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you want to discuss that, I'm
sure that Professor Bato and possibly. I

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mean, I'd love to talk to
others about this, but I know that

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he'd be more than willing to come
back on and talk about that. But

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tonight it's not about that. The
title of this book that we're going to

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discuss is The New Deal's War on
the Bill of Rights. Now, like

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I said, it's interesting to me
because even though it doesn't go into this

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in the book, FDR, Well, how about the gold seizure? How

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about the concentration camps. I wonder
if anybody's going to go into that.

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Uh well, I already I already
know the answer. I've read part of

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the book, so I did get
to this. And by the way,

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it's in the subtitle, so you
know, all I have to do is

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look at the cover if you go
look it up. And by the way,

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to spell the professor's name, just
so you know, it's David T

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and then Beto. And I'm not
sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but

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b E I t O that is
the correct way to spell it. In

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case you want to go search the
New Deals War on the Bill of Rights.

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And yeah, the untold story of
FDR's concentration Camps censorship and mass surveillance.

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Oh, we had mass surveillance before
the Patriot Act. Indeed we did,

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and indeed we did before FDR.
But anyway, Uh, Professor Beto,

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how are you? I know that? Uh, let's see, I

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do believe you have retired. You've
written some articles recently. I don't know

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what else you it is you want
to mention here, but University of Alabama

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professor, as as your wife also, you know, and I actually had

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both of you on the show.
I think I'm the only person that brought

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both of you on the show at
the same time on a podcast. But

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anyways, how are you doing tonight, sir? Oh, We're doing great.

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And we had a lot of fun
that on that show because we've got

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a lot of time to just talk
about free ranging conversations. That's what I

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try to do to give people an
idea. Now again, I love the

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fact that, look, first of
all, this is a bit of a

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challenge to history. A lot of
people get uncomfortable when discussing FDR. It's

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like taboo to go into his well
violations on people's rights. The first thing

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people bring up, of course,
is the the internment camps. Let's let's

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you know, use that term,
right, tournament camps, you know,

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for Japanese Americans. First they bring
it up, but also there were Italians,

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there were Germans that were putting the
camps, to my understanding, not

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as many, not as obviously,
but this happened. And yeah, people

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don't even want to touch that.
And meanwhile, there's more to this story,

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isn't there. Oh, there's a
lot more to it. There's a

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lot more to it on the issue
of internment. I call them, well,

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I don't call them. It was
what FDR called them concentration camps.

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He used that terminology as late as
well, all the way through nineteen forty

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four he was using that terminology.
And I'm not arguing here that these are

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analogous to death camps, Holocaust death
camps, but they are. They do

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fit the label, and they're not
typical internment camps because yes, you know,

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the Italians and the Germans were in
turned, but you don't have this

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kind of wholesale incarceration basically based simply
on ancestry. They were actually putting Japanese

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American orphans, people born in orphanages
who were Japanese American in these camps.

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So you didn't have anything like that
with Germans and Italians. And I think

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there's a willingness of people to condemn, you know, certainly condemn the internment,

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but FDR is still let off the
hook. There's a lot of effort,

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I think, to see him as
a more of a reactive figure forced

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along by events, by wartime hysteria. And we don't see the Roosevelt of

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the New Deal when it comes to
interment, which is the Roosevelt with his

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hand on the tiller, who's leading
the charge on internment. The depiction is

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of a kind of clueless figure that's
swept along, and that is not an

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accurate depiction. A couple of quick
questions about that. First of all,

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isn't it a pragmatic issue that Italians
and Germans were not as easily identifiable by

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their ancestry. I mean, isn't
that just a reality here, because well,

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first of all, Italians, a
lot of our names, well I

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got a Vallady end of my name, A lot of our names were screwed

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up when we came to this country, so we might not be easily identified

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as Italians first of all. Secondly, Germans maybe not identified as Germans or

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they could be some other people's adjacent
to Germany, not necessarily ethnically German.

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But I mean it sounds terrible,
but it's easier to identify Asian people,

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is it not. I mean,
just by sight. Isn't that kind of

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the argument that's usually used for that
one and two about him being this figure

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that's swept along. Isn't that partially
based on the fact that they make them

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sympathetic considering the fact that he was
handicapped. Isn't that one of the issues

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here too? Yeah, And I'm
not taking away from his, uh,

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his accomplishments in overcoming those handicaps,
you know, and he basically when he

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had his bout with polio, was
it a kind of a low point of

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his career. He'd been discredited to
a great extent because of a scandal in

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the Navy, and he really he
really clawed his way back quite successfully in

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doing that. Now, I agree
with you that some of this is practicality,

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uh, but I think racism really
plays a role here. Because the

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Japanese Americans are there, there have
been a lot of reaction against them that

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there were not against Germans and Italians, you know. You know, for

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example, basically we had a although
they didn't officially call it that, we

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had a Japanese Exclusion Act. We
had a situation where Japanese could Americans could

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not become naturalized citizens. But you
know, the only way they could become

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citizens is by being born in the
US. So you had all these people

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that you know, if they're born
in Japan and they're brought to the US

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at one year, there's no way
they can become citizens. They are prohibited

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in many cases from purchasing property.
So they really set off as a separate

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group from from a pretty much from
the beginning, dating really from Roosevelt,

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Roosevelt's cousins administration Teddy Roosevelt, where
this was a big controversy of Japanese immigration.

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Well, to see, that's where
I was going to go, is

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that Asian policy effectively across all of
Asia. I think you could find its

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roots with his cousins administration exactly,
and even previous to that, America not

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really a friendly place to well Asian
people initially, right, I mean,

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they were one of the exploited groups
of immigrants that came in, you know,

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clearly not exploited to the same degree
that African Americans were but uh,

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you know, in some ways nearly
because again another labor population absolutely exploited and

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in order to build infrastructure for the
thing of the time, which was the

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railroads. I mean, this is
very typical of what goes on, you

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know. I mean I can tell
you about how Look I I'm of Irish

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and Italian ancestry. I know that
my people got exploited at a certain point.

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We were meant to be cheap labor
to build a lot of things like

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skyscrapers, bridges, stuff like this, and so so I see it as

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the the cycle of exploitation that goes
on in this country. And yes,

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indeed race has something to do with
it, doesn't it. Yeah, it

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does. I used to teach years
ago, who's teached Avada history. I

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thought I might get a perm in
a position at UNLV. Didn't work out,

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but I did teach the course.
And you see some interesting wrinkles on

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this. For example, Nevada's population
I think in eighteen seventy or maybe he's

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eighteen eighty was something like twenty percent
Chinese, and you would have the Chinese

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and the Pioutes, and you know
fighting over jobs like you know, bringing

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wood in to for fuel for the
for the miners, that kind of thing.

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They would be really at the bottom
of the barrel. So you get

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these you know, these white miners
sort of betting on I bet on the

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Paiute, I bet on the Chinamen, right, and they're fighting each other,

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pushing that kind of thing. So
it's sort of an interesting comparison there.

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I guess you could make to the
Irish and the African Americans and their

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their rivalry. You know, that's
more familiar. I forgot what your question

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was basically, but yeah, they
were. They were heavily exploited in the

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chin Chinese were singled out, and
the Japanese were kind of loaded onto that

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later. That was that was the
point the other immigrant groups we had a

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pretty much open borders exactly that that
was the point I wanted to make it

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we're going to keep them out.
Yeah, that was exactly the point I

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wanted to make. Actually, that
was that was what I was laying out

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there, is that, you know, it seems to me like this is

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the continuation of and the Japanese just
sort of got loaded onto what was initially

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very very prevalent uh and directed as
Chinese people, and and here we go,

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uh I think it has forgotten in
our history that at one point,

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you know, that racism was pretty
extreme. They were thought of as less

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than human, et cetera. And
that was the reality. Okay, uh

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so, you know, and again
I'm not trying to excuse FDR or or

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Theodore Roosevelt or exclusionary acts or any
of that. I'm not excusing anything.

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I'm just saying that this was the
attitude of the time. And it's weird

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because these interesting presidential figures are often
presented as sympathetic, right because oh,

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well, they're a product of their
time, you know. Okay, that's

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great and real helpful and everything.
But of course they're a product of their

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time until they change that time.
And look, can I speak to the

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position that FDR was innecessarily when we
have this circumstance that goes on and also

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what happens with Pearl Harbor. A
lot of people have many questions about that

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still, and our Congress had many
questions about it. There were many investigations

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into that. People may forget that, but that's the truth. There were

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a lot of questions even at the
time, what really happened there? What

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was the real circumstance that led to
the events of Pearl Harbor, etc.

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And some people would say, well, look, the backlash of that is

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what drove FDR to do what he
did. But how would you view that?

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Is that the way that works?
I mean, is it a response,

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well, look, you know,
we don't know who's attacking us,

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who's working with the enemy. Is
this an almost reasonable response, you know?

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I mean, how do you view
that? Well, FDR been predisposed

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in that direction. He was in
nineteen thirty six. He actually said that,

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well, if we ever have a
war with Japan, anyone meeting Japanese

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ships or relatives of those meeting them
had any connection with Japanese ships should be

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put in concentration camps. So there
is a nineteen thirty sixties saying this.

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Now, I will say this.
When Pearl Harbor happened, the initial reaction

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on the West Coast even was fairly
tolerant. You look at newspapers, like

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in Los Angeles and San Francisco,
you look at local politicians, and they're

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basically saying things like, well,
these are Americans, let's leave them malone.

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Let's not imitate what happened in World
War One. So it's actually kind

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of an early attitude of tolerance.
Now, what happens is is that FDR

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kind of stood back, let others
take the initiative who had less, you

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know, who were more for the
idea of putting them in camps and that

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kind of thing, and sort of
signed on to it. But he basically

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gave them encouragement. He never FDR
never gave a speech right in December or

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January or February nineteen forty, you
know two, saying look, these are

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Americans, you know, lay off
them. They're patriotic, you know.

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He never said anything like that.
He never used his incredible charisma. So

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the actual order, the executive order
he signed that began the process of internment

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didn't come about till February nineteen forty
two. Once this, these attitudes has

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started to build up, in part
because FDR sort of gave them encouragement behind

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the scenes. But the initial attitude
was not, you know, calling for

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internment. So there's no reason to
see that as an inevitable result of Pearl

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Harbor hysteria because even after the hysteria, people are being pretty reasonable about it.

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Well, let's rewind a little bit, because let's get into another aspect

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that's on the front cover of your
book, which is mass surveillance? Right?

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If people never heard of this before? What is the Black Inquisition Committee?

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Okay, Well, there was a
senator from my state, Hugo Black,

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later Supreme Court justice. But Black
was a career, really started a

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national career as a chair of a
committee called the it was committee to investigate

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lobbying, and it came to be
called the Black Committee. Kind of an

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an ominous sound, and people critics
played up on that and they called it

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the Black Inquisition. And basically Black
was tasked by FDR. He was FDR's

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most loyal supporter in the Senate.
Very effective ally of FDR to go and

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investigate critics of the administration. And
Black was very much on board with this,

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and he started to call in these
people who were critics of the New

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Deal, political opponents. There were
some scandals he was able to take advantage

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of involving various things any sort of
called them in, but they pushed back

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and so his investigation was sort of
like not very effective. So Black had

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the idea, gee, whiz,
what if I had access to the private

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telegrams of these witnesses and just to
give you a sense of how important telegrams

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were at the time, that was
more than fifty percent of long distance communication.

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These are the email of their time. People will often say things in

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them they wouldn't say in letters,
and they're instantaneous, or they can be

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because a lot of businesses have you
know, they they are on site,

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they have people sending out telegraphs,
receiving them, and every member of Congress

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is familiar with this mode of communication, law firms, et cetera. So

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Black I did, what if I
can get access to these telegrams for pet

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perhaps because he found out that there
was a law that the telegraph companies had

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to keep copies of all telegrams and
so, uh, you could get them

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through subpoena, but it had to
be very targeted. I want Joe Smith

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from you know, I want his
telegrams involving this or that. Right.

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Well, Black, you know,
wasn't going to do that. So he

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went to the administration, went to
the FCC basically administration, and said,

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look, I want access to these
telegrams. I want an order. I

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want to get them for like a
nine month period for for example, all

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telegrams being sent to and sent from
all members of Congress. Going out of

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Washington. Then he expanded it and
he started to include law firms in Chicago

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and so forth, the heads of
these anti New Deal organizations and so forth.

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He said, I want to see
all these telegrams, and the telegraph

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companies Western Union was the big ones, said screw you because they didn't have

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bad reputation, right, But he
got them, or they were ordered to

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do it by the FCC. Basically, so he went in and he got

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these big books, these copies of
all these telegrams. He went through thousands

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a day, and I had to
take a double take. But then I

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did the math and it works.
He went through about three million private telegrams

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and would copy sections considered damning and
oh oh, what was the parame of

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the search? It was simply look
for he told his staffers and the FCC

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staffers who helped out, look for
anything related to lobbying. What would that

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be influencing ideas what we're doing now
would be lobbying, right, so it

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would be anything. So he said, well, if you see personal information,

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just you know, a virtue your
eyes and you know, look for

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stuff on lobbying. And so then
he he he would call in these witnesses,

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and they didn't know he was doing
this. They were never informed,

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and he would blindside them with Well
in June eight, if you sent this

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and you said this and this telegram, imagine that being done for our private

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emails. How many of us would
be prepared to defend everything we said in

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those emails? Okay, Well,
I don't imagine that happened here. Yeah,

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see, I don't have to imagine
that now. When I take a

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look back a matter of fact,
the first thing that occurs to me is

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to telecommunications acts in ninety six and
ninety seven, and then what became of

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that later? Okay, because nowadays, look, law enforcement gets involved.

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They pretty much have carte blanche through
these various other agreements to go through everything

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now, which at the time it
was like, well, we just need

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you to keep track of all these
things so we have records in case somebody

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does something terrible and then later on
what happens, it evolves, So these

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things always involved when you have a
communication company of any kind involved, you

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know, I mean, and this
is like on the scale of when I'm

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thinking about the parallel of what Jagar
Hoover is developing at this very time,

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it's rather interesting, isn't it?
Because it's interesting, But if you look

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at Hoover's phone taps, for example, it's rather minor compared to this in

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scale right now, they're certainly significant. But he's got like, oh,

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I've seen the figures at any one
time, he's got a couple hundred taps

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on at any you know, particular
time when I'm having Again, I'm not

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excusing Hoover. I'm saying a lot
of people kind of missed by focusing on

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Hoover, have missed some interesting things
that are going on. Well, what's

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also very better committee, Yes,
what's very underappreciated though with Hoover is his

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monitoring of the mail. I'm sorry, but that is still really unquantified in

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my mind, because people don't even
know how much mail was being monitored.

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And they said that it was anybody, you know, I mean, it

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was so open. This is what
it reminds me of the monitoring of the

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actual, you know, old postal
mail. I know, you know,

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what are we even talking about anymore? Because everything is email and so on

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and so forth. But honestly,
the fact that people were monitoring everything in

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the mail at certain points, if
you could be a targeted figure back then.

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Sounds like the same kind of thing, except yeah, I think that

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I think that that's a good comparison. One thing I would say in an

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encouraging neelt though, is that once
this this process is sort of getting out

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of control. And Western Union started
to inform people that their telegrams are being

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searched, and there was tremendous pushback. The assistant Secretary of War, no

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Secretary Woodrow Wilson's Secretary of War,
Newton Baker, found out. He's a

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moderate kind of character, not a
rabble rouser at all. And he said,

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when I found that out, if
I decided that if I saw lynching

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of Hugo Black, I would not
participate. However, I would do nothing

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to stop the lyncher putting the rope
around his neck. And there was a

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massive criticism. There were lawsuits,
including by a guy that was the head

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of the US Chamber of Commerce who
found out, and it was a Republican

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leader named Silas Strong, very prominent
law firm still has that name today in

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Chicago, and Strawn brought suit against
this for violating basically, you know,

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the Bill of Rights, and he
won. He won. There were several

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lawsuits. But the trouble is Black
had done the damaging, gotten everything he

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needed, and basically these court rulings
said, don't do that anymore. You're

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prohibited from doing it anymore, but
we're not. We can't really do anything

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about what you've already done. Having
said that, they were important precedents,

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so imagine if Joe McCarthy or subsequent
committees that had that power, which could

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have included, you know, using
monitoring phone calls and things like that too,

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because it provided a precedent for that, they were deprived of that.

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So it actually ended up in a
good way in that sense. Well,

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it was pushback against it across the
political spectrum, including a lot of New

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dealers, were outraged by this.
Well, considering that we still don't have

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the records of the House on an
American activities, you know, records at

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all, you know, just saying
you don't know, it could be a

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whole lot more extensive. There was
an extensive investigation and they did massive these

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subpoenas basically that we're very fire reaching
sure you know just about any information these

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people have, and oh yeah,
all kinds of people were cited for contempt.

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So the House Committee and on American
activities. I'm not minimizing that by

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any means. That was very you
know, investigations out of control, right,

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although they didn't have really this power. I think that blackad quite well.

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We don't see. I contend that
we don't necessarily even know because of

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the lack of transparency. But look, we could discuss that another day.

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Let's stick to communications, though,
because what is FDR well known for,

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well, his use of the radio, right, and you know, there's

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there's something to be said. I
know I'm jumping around a bit through your

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book here, but I think this
is necessary to bring up because your chapter,

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let me get in front of me
here a new deal for radio and

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a new uniformity. Now, considering
that there was a crackdown on dissent and

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all of that, I wonder how
we would roll that into the use of

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the radio for propaganda for you know, the very classic stuff that they used

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to play when I was a kid. By the way, a lot of

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these documentaries featured long bits of his
radio discussions and all these things. I

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note that it doesn't seem to be
as prominent today. I think it's because

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it's highly misunderstood. It's like Hey, look, this should be a podcast

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from one hundred years ago almost,
but they don't do it. And I'm

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wondering why. But there's a bit
of control on the media and things that

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goes on here. So how would
we give people a look at that as

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you travel through it in your book? Well, FDR is a master manipulator,

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you know. Ironically, in a
way, Herbert Hoover was an incredibly

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important figure in creating the current structure
or the structure is that it developed of

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radio through the Federal Radio Commission.
But he was rather a naptin use radio

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for propaganda purposes. And it was
once said that FDR, had he never

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00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.880
been a politician, could have been
at the top of his top of the

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00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:15.240
pyramid or whatever you want to say, as a successful radio commentator. He

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had the voice for it. And
I sort of forced myself to listen to

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all of FDR's recorded speeches. Took
a while, and the man was just

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a master at doing that. He
was very good. He using humor.

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He wasn't like Trump, you know, the bull in a china shop.

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If FDR is going to get you, he would do it behind the scenes.

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He would use he would use so
many he was very smooth and very

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effective, and put tried to put
things on a higher plane when there was

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a lot more going on under the
surface. But he was a master manipular

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of the radio. Now. Initially, when the New Deal came in the

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radio networks there were two of them
at that point, two main ones.

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There was NBC and CBS, and
there were a lot of smaller fry and

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basically they told they said to the
administration, whatever you want, we'll put

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you on the air whenever you want. You don't have to pay for it.

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They were giving Roosevelt pretty much carte
blanche, and we're shutting down any

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sort of anti New Deal voices,
and that kind of set the pattern.

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Roosevelt ended up having a lot of
criticism and newspapers, print press was really

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against him by nineteen thirty four thirty
five, but he always had radio in

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his hip pocket. Then later Roosevelt, as there's rise summrising criticism, he's

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able to basically force off the air
all anti New Deal commentators, at least

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all the ones on the major networks. They're smaller regional networks and that kind

359
00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.839
of thing. They don't reach as
many people. So there's some exceptions there,

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but he's able to do it through
something very similar to the Twitter files,

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basically going in and putting pressure behind
the scenes, you know, basically

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things like pressure on advertisers. For
example, Marjorie Meriweather Post, her husband

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was the ambassador of the Soviet Union, Joseph Davies, very tied with the

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administration. So Roosevelt went to Post
and basically there was a leading anti Roosevelt

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00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:38.359
commentator, probably the Tucker Carlson was
day named both Carter, and they basically

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forced him to tone down his criticism
and then ultimately force him from the air,

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so that by nineteen thirty eight there
are no anti New Deal radio commentators

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on the major networks, And so
Roosevelt has radio under his control very effectively,

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using things like early versions of the
equal time rule, using things about

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prohibiting network codes. Did a lot
of work through these voluntary codes, prohibiting

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stations from you know, people from
purchasing airtime, you know, if you

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wanted to purchase airtime, you know, for a political message, that basically

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was shut down. So there were
all these things done through this sun of

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quasi voluntary system, combined with the
FCC, combined with behind the scenes pressure

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that can't coming together basically created what
I call kind of ideological uniformity, but

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also kind of uniformity in the way
radio looked now. A lot of these

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small fry there were socialist stations,
labor union stations, these weird religious stations.

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A lot of these were through a
culling process both into Hoover and Roosevelt,

379
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.640
kind of forced off the air,
and you get pretty much radio looking

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00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:04.839
the same everywhere. Well, what
you're saying is that, no matter how

381
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:07.279
rich I was, if I wanted
to go on and do you know one

382
00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.599
of these political hit ads like we
would see today, right, if you

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00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:17.799
think FDR's new deal is a good
deal for you're you're being fooled. If

384
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:21.759
that word got out that I was
trying to run that, first of all,

385
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.759
CBS, okay, right, the
Columbia Broadcasting System and the National Broadcasting

386
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:32.240
Company NBC, both of them would
immediately turn it away because A they didn't

387
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:37.279
need me, and B they were
cooperating fully because they wanted access, right,

388
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.319
they wanted to be able to run
the live stuff that he was going

389
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:45.319
to do directly, seems like to
me. And then you have just other

390
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:52.240
pressures being put on these smaller companies
where yeah, they get forced out effectively,

391
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:55.519
because look, if you keep cutting
off their revenue from all these independent

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00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.200
people that could be putting out messages
that they don't like for one reason or

393
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.720
another. I mean, and there
you go. That leads to a whole

394
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:05.480
lot of interesting abuse. And again, no internet, no television at the

395
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.119
time. You know, here we
are, this is the manipulation of the

396
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:15.039
media. And and he couldn't control
all the print media. Now today,

397
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:16.640
print media is not as prevalent.
Matter of fact, you and I had

398
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:22.720
a little discussion before airtime about what's
happening to print media and even their archives

399
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:29.799
disappearing at this point, and you
can sanitize any of this. Now it's

400
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:34.000
become, especially in the digital age, it's even easier to do what it

401
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:38.559
is that was being done here.
So this is you know again, is

402
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:43.680
he a man of his time?
Certainly? And he used lots of different

403
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.279
government institutions to do this, right, I mean, we're not just talking

404
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:53.599
about the regulation of the public airwaves, which has been manipulated by various administrations.

405
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:58.119
And one other odd thought I was
thinking here as I was listening to

406
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:04.920
you, is that is framework effectively
prevails all the way until the nineteen sixties,

407
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.240
because it seems to me like when
John F. Kennedy, of course,

408
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:12.160
it becomes more slick, it becomes
more showbiz. When John F.

409
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.920
Kennedy is taking over radio and becoming
the first TV president, so to speak,

410
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:22.039
right, that style that delivery is
still kind of there. FDR style

411
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.480
prevails all the way into Kennedy's style
when it comes to trying to give these

412
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:30.640
speeches on the radio. It seems
like to me, would you say that

413
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:35.599
that remained a standard for a very
long time up until only maybe I don't

414
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:37.839
know, a short time ago in
our history, even that FDR had set

415
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:44.400
that standard stylistically one and two.
This is an exact mirror of what would

416
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.400
happen today, except that this would
be done with the digital processes if somebody

417
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:53.440
was to use the you know,
use the government basically to shut down free

418
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:57.200
speech, which, by the way, there's many different things here that seem

419
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:01.960
to be anti free speech among the
New Deal press. So what are your

420
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.720
thoughts there, And I'd like you
to go into some of the anti free

421
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.599
speech things that go on. Of
course, going back further again, I'm

422
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:14.880
looking at the table contents to guide
me a touch here. But going back

423
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.679
toward the beginning of the book,
again you have the Minten Committee you might

424
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:22.360
want to discuss as well. But
but this is interesting here where we see

425
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.400
free speech being shut down. And
I don't see a lot of historians relating

426
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.960
FDR to shutting down free speech except
that, oh, well, you know,

427
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:36.000
he was a wartime president, so
therefore, you know, you have

428
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:40.599
to control the message during a war, and I dare say it seems like

429
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:47.719
his his beginnings of doing that are
not necessarily steeped in the unfortunate circumstance of

430
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.880
just war. So what do you
have to say to that? And what

431
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:58.639
I was saying before, well,
yeah, I think that to some extent

432
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:02.519
that continues a little. Nobody really
equals FDR. A few years ago,

433
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.199
I actually made a comparison though to
Trump, where I you know, and

434
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:12.320
I don't think in the end that's
true became over time that ended. But

435
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:16.000
in a lot of ways, Radio
was sort of FDR's version of you know,

436
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.920
Twitter. You know, Trump really
rose to prominence through his tweets and

437
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.960
through using that medium, and it
was unfiltered. He could go around everybody

438
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:30.079
else, you know. In FDR's
case, he could go around the print

439
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:36.440
press. He could go directly to
the people through his speeches and his fireside

440
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.599
chats, and so I think that
that's sort of a unique aspect of this.

441
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:45.760
Basically, I don't think Kennedy had
that kind of hostility with the print

442
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.239
press. So radio is kind of
Roosevelt's way just to go around all of

443
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.559
this, all of these people.
Yeah, in the strategy definitely Trump like,

444
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:57.880
because that's that's exactly correct. You
see, you don't have to have

445
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.039
a reporter filter what he says.
He's puts it out, which is exactly

446
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:05.559
what Trump did. Uh No.
What I meant is the style of speeches

447
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:09.039
that he was giving are similar to
Kennedy still, because that was the template

448
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:14.360
that worked for the president for a
long time, right, these prepared speeches

449
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.840
that came out that had this,
you know, this language of a certain

450
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:22.440
sort that made certain points. You
know, I'm here to comfort the nation,

451
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.440
all that kind of stuff. I
mean that is sort of would avoid

452
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:30.119
personality, and I don't remember a
lot of these guys avoided personalities. And

453
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:34.320
I will say that about FDR one
of his He's different than Trump in the

454
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.559
sense that FDR would not And I
think this would if I would be true,

455
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.719
for Kennedy would not get up there
and just sort of like Trump does,

456
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:46.760
right and attack individuals right, personalize
it. Right. FDR is very

457
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:52.400
effective in talking about these Republicans,
these critics, and of course he mischaracterizes

458
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.519
his critics, right, he puts
words in their mouth, but he does

459
00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:01.639
it with good humor, and he
does it without sort of of specifically singling

460
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.480
them out. So that's a little
bit of a difference, I think.

461
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:09.039
Right, So they're on a higher
plane in one sense, they're more abstract

462
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:13.800
in one sense. Well, Kennedy
did it with jokes during the television press

463
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:19.440
conferences right where he would make a
joke about some criticism toward him with the

464
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:22.280
reporter standing there. Sometimes remember the
you know you, I'm sure you viewed

465
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.679
some of the television press pressors he
did, right, sure, sure you

466
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.039
know so. And he again the
television president. Okay, FDR definitely thought

467
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:37.039
of as a radio president because he
was on all the time the fireside chats.

468
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.119
We all know that. I mean, anybody who knows the history knows

469
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:46.320
that. When you study communications and
you study the history of our political structure,

470
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:51.280
communicating with the public, obviously you
have to take note of it.

471
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.400
But I was wondering more about the
control of free speech again, not just

472
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:59.239
through shutting down opposition to the New
Deal. But wasn't there other things going

473
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.280
on here? Well? Yeah,
there was a senator named Sherman Minton,

474
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:08.920
who's now mainly remembered because there's a
bridge in Indiana named after him. But

475
00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:15.960
maybe that's changing now with this book. But Minton was really very effective like

476
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:20.519
Black was. He was younger,
but he was a very effective kind of

477
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:25.000
attack dog. I guess you could
say for the New Deal, he was

478
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:30.159
the guy that really helped out and
you know that provided the energy. You

479
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:35.199
had a kind of elderly senate leadership, and he provided the energy for things

480
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.760
like pushing for the court packing plan
and that kind of thing. Very loyal

481
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:44.559
to FDR. Very you know,
not a loose cannon at all. And

482
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.239
Minton proposed a bill, and frankly, I think it came from FDR the

483
00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:52.840
idea. I can't prove that,
but I've got some fairly good circumstantial evidence,

484
00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:57.599
I guess you could say, but
I haven't nailed it down. He

485
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:01.280
proposed the bill because Minton was Black's
successor. When Black went up to the

486
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:07.440
Supreme Court, mainly because of his
good work for FDR on the Black Committee.

487
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:09.920
Minton took over his committee and it
sort of languished for a while,

488
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:15.079
and Minton tried to revive this investigation. This was after the defeat of Court

489
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:22.239
Packing, so FDR was in a
revenge revengeful mood, and so Minton was

490
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.639
sort of with him on that.
They started to investigate, and again partly

491
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:30.119
because he didn't have the power to
get these telegrams. Minton is sort of

492
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.800
like frustrated because these guys will come
in and he's investigated, and they'll go

493
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.320
toe to toe with them and they'll
actually get sympathetic coverage. So Minton is

494
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:43.199
very frustrated, so he decides to
propose a bill. He's trying to make

495
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:47.440
a larger point. He thinks against
what he sees is fake news, false

496
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:52.639
news, right, same thing as
today. FDR talked that way too.

497
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:58.960
He proposes a bill to ban to
make it a felony to publish any article

498
00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:04.480
quote known to be false. Uh
oh, now that sounds an awful lot

499
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.719
familiar. Tough O pose something like
that a few years ago, and it's

500
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:12.519
talked since in those that kind of
have to though, No, he's not

501
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.519
the only one. But he's not
the only one. Yeah, yeah,

502
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:17.639
no, I just but see here
we go, you know, the the

503
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:22.119
the often sighted thing, right,
you know, history doesn't repeat itself,

504
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:27.320
but it does rhyme, Yeah it
does. Because we've heard this before,

505
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:30.800
haven't we again? Shutting down the
scent? So uh, please continue,

506
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.840
though, because before we're done,
and by the way, we're we're way

507
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:38.639
more than halfway through already. H
I want to get into the last part

508
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.199
of the book, which I did
not read thoroughly, but I want to

509
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:47.079
ask you about it because I'm intrigued
by even the uh the the chapter title

510
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:51.119
here, uh, the in the
table of contents. So I want to

511
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:54.159
get into it before we before we're
done. But you know, this is

512
00:40:54.280 --> 00:41:00.760
a different portrait from what is generally
handed to school kids. This is a

513
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.840
different portrait than what you usually get
in your oh you know, very vanilla

514
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.800
sort of a documentary on FDR.
Right, this is not the stuff they

515
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:14.599
want to tell you about. They
may mention the concentration camps, which I

516
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.480
didn't even take a lot of time
to focus with you on, but you

517
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:22.559
know, because I figure that's out
there, there's plenty of it, But

518
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:25.480
there's a whole lot more going on
here. So I'm really glad that we've

519
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.400
gotten a chance to do this,
but please continue, because again, I

520
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:36.920
think people don't recognize exactly how extensive
the work had to be to shut down

521
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:39.960
dissent. And even though you know, look, maybe it's descent with the

522
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:44.760
New Deal, people have judged it
differently in recent years than they used to.

523
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.079
Like I said, he was more
of a political hero, now sort

524
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:52.400
of seen as this sort of gray
figure just kind of yeah, part of

525
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:57.199
the past we flipped by any longer
it seems like, right. I mean,

526
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.880
he was supposed to be one of
the presidential heroes, so to speak.

527
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:05.039
I remember as I was taught when
I was younger, but things have

528
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.360
changed over time, and of course
history does revise itself as it goes.

529
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:13.400
I mean, I see people massaging
Lyndon Johnson into a different figure as we

530
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.639
go. And I've got my opinions
on that for sure, after having to

531
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:23.039
study a lot of that stuff extensively. But I think that an honest look

532
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:29.559
once again at some of these figures
in American history is necessary, and I'm

533
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:31.639
really glad that people like you are
going to keep doing this, which,

534
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:36.039
by the way, says in the
beginning of the book that you've been working

535
00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:38.000
on this for about ten years?
Is that right? Oh? More than

536
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:42.440
that. Actually, I hate to
admit it because I said, I'm going

537
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.920
to deal a story, and I
decided I had to do tons of primary

538
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.400
research. I have to know the
secondary literature. I look at all sorts

539
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:52.360
of aspects of it, and I
was about to give up on it.

540
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.960
My wife said, no, you
better continue, and I did. But

541
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.639
it was just so overwhelming, and
I'm glad I I stuck with it.

542
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:06.360
You're talking about FDR and his popularity. It's still way up there. If

543
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:09.920
you look at presidential polls, he's
up there. You know, number one,

544
00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:15.519
very often number two. Woodrow Wilson
was still fairly up there, but

545
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:20.719
he's sinking, I think pretty fast, because there has been pushback against him,

546
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.519
well as he deserves to, by
the way, being somebody was born

547
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.360
in the state of New Jersey,
I feel fully within my right to say

548
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.840
that Woodrow Wilson does not deserve to
be in the top of anything in presidential

549
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:36.320
historians. Although I think FDR,
I make an argument that FDR was actually

550
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:42.639
worse even if you don't include Japanese
in tournament worse on civil liberties than Woodrow

551
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.920
Wilson. I know that's a controversial
argument, that's right, but I mean,

552
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:51.760
I think the evidence is there.
Woodrow Wilson, you could say,

553
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:58.280
you know, he appointed a lot
of people like oh Palmer and these Gregory

554
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.599
and these other people, you know, smashing civil liberties during World War One,

555
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:07.559
But he would occasionally he would sort
of step in and say, hey,

556
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:09.719
you know, do you really have
to do this? Isn't this going

557
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.639
a little too far? And his
subordinate would say, no, I have

558
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:16.480
to do it, and Wilson would
defer to them, so we sort of

559
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.000
let them run wild and didn't do
anything. Now, his attitudes weren't that

560
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.679
great in civil liberties, but in
some ways they were better than some of

561
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:30.679
his subordinates. The reverse was true
with FDR would he would put pressure on

562
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:36.719
subordinates who pushed back. And that's
one of the things why civil liberties the

563
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.800
story is not as bad as it
could have been, only because he had

564
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:45.039
subordinates who would push back. And
that's what you see with the Mitten Committee.

565
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:51.480
Mitton proposed his bill and guess what, almost universal opposition, including from

566
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:55.639
leading New dealers, including from the
press, including from congressman that you might

567
00:44:55.719 --> 00:45:00.119
remember, like oh, I don't
remember a manual seller and some of these

568
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:06.880
other figures McCormick, these new dealers. They would push back and they say

569
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:10.320
this is going too far. And
that is one thing that you saw during

570
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:15.360
the era that you do not see
now to the same extent. Right left

571
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:19.199
coalitions for free speech right, well, they don't. Maybe they'll come back,

572
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.840
but you know, things that shake
up over Israel and all that.

573
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:24.920
But I'm not too optimistic. I
don't see it as being No, I

574
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.840
don't think so either. We have
ways to go before people stop stepping on

575
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:34.679
the other side of the line to
oppose somebody on their side. Nowadays,

576
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:37.639
it's kind of a free rider problem. I would say, right, you'll

577
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:43.199
only defend free speech for your side
exactly, and the result of that is,

578
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.480
because you won't defend it for others, you weaken the You create a

579
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:50.840
free rider problem in a sense where
people are free riding off of you who

580
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.639
disagree with you, and it sort
of weakens the whole opposition to any censorship

581
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.719
or control well right, and to
me, it weakens the legitimacy of anybody's

582
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:02.440
argue when they're in opposition to anything, because it's like, Okay, you're

583
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:07.280
in opposition to this because this is
your opponent. Uh. That that's the

584
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:08.639
only reason. Otherwise, if it
was your guy, it would be fine.

585
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:12.480
I mean, I know I'm putting
it on a very basic level,

586
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.519
but that that is the reality of
it. Back at this point in time

587
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:19.519
in our history. Uh, that
was not necessarily the case. Although Woodrow

588
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:24.400
Wilson, again having speaking speaking as
somebody who lived in Woodrow Wilson housing projects

589
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:29.880
who went to schools with his name
on it, Okay, I studied him

590
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:34.760
as a figure and presented oppositional viewpoints
to Woodrow Wilson while living in New Jersey

591
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.239
as a kid. So you know, it's like, hey, look this

592
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:44.079
guy hired Henchman. Do you understand
this? You know, like if Royd

593
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.800
had a nail. Did you ever
read Freud's analysis of Wilson? I did

594
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:51.000
not, but but please enlighten me. Oh yeah, there was a guy

595
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:57.960
named uh it was a book.
It was a book by about Wilson,

596
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:02.559
and it was the introduction was by
guy ambassador to the Soviet Union named Bullet

597
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:07.800
and who didn't like Wilson either or
didn't like Wilson either. And so this

598
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:14.239
book Freud Psychle analyzes Wilson and basically
says, this guy's got a Christ complex.

599
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.719
And I mean he really goes to
town. People don't know about the

600
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.719
book, but if you just google
it, you know, you just some

601
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.280
wonderful things in it. He has. He has Wilson on the couch,

602
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:27.719
and he's merciless toward it. I
you know what I think, I read

603
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.079
like like references to it in another
book, come to think of it,

604
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:35.000
because in the fact that you just
said Christ complex, I remember that coming

605
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:39.159
up before. Uh yeah, yeah. He would lecture the people at the

606
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:44.679
Versailles Conference about, you know,
our Lord Jesus Christ has laid out this

607
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:46.599
world. You know this, you
know. He would give them these flowery

608
00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:51.400
lectures and people like Clem and So
would look at Lloyd and these cynics would

609
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.119
look at Lloyd George and they'd roll
their eyes. Right this, this guy's

610
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:58.559
a babe in the woods here.
This guy does not understand the realities.

611
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.239
Yeah, I know, and that
and that's that sums up Wilson. But

612
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:06.320
look again, not the guy we're
talking about tonight, necessarily, but in

613
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:09.559
comparison, no, it's very that's
a hard argument. That FDR could be

614
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:15.440
worse. But all right, anyway, we'll put that aside. That would

615
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:20.320
make the argument perhaps perhaps, But
all right, now here's something I don't

616
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.840
know about. Uh and and you
you title it this way, and it's

617
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:29.559
toward the end before your conclusion,
which is the forgotten sedition trial fiasco.

618
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:34.280
Now, I don't know anything about
this off the top of my head.

619
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:38.320
So uh Now, I know that
the sedition is a popular word as of

620
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:43.519
late. People talk about the you
know, the insurrection, the sedition.

621
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:49.559
People have been charged with sedition in
recent years, have they not. It

622
00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:52.480
is one of these things to bring
up. But I don't know about this

623
00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:59.000
part of FDR's history. So please
give me give me a thumbnail of of

624
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.320
of what's in that after, if
you wouldn't mind. Yeah, I didn't

625
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:06.199
plan this, but you know,
sedition is suddenly a thing again, sedition

626
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.159
trials. I didn't see it coming, but boy it came. It did

627
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:14.119
hit me with a you know,
Okay, my timing's pretty good on this.

628
00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:15.800
This was one of the largest,
if not I believe, the largest

629
00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:22.320
mass trial in the history of Washington, d C. And it basically started

630
00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:29.719
with this reporter from the Washington Post
cooperating with sympathetic prosecutors in the federal government

631
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:35.519
and certainly the people elements in the
Roosevelt administration, including Roosevelt himself, who

632
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:40.960
basically started to It started small,
but after Pearl Harbor it really heated up,

633
00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:45.280
partly because Roosevelt put a lot of
pressure on his Attorney general and said,

634
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:51.960
when are you going to indict these
people? Now Roosevelt wanted to indict

635
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.960
people like the publisher of the Chicago
Tribune, Robert McCormick. They wanted He

636
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:01.760
wanted to indict these major medium miles, moguls. He wanted to indict members

637
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:07.280
of Congress, you know who.
What was their sin? Their sin was

638
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.719
that they had opposed his policy before
Pearl Harbor. Now, all these people

639
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:15.639
after Pearl Harbor said basically, we're
in this war, we support the war,

640
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:20.239
right But he didn't. He didn't. That wasn't good enough for FDR.

641
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.159
So he wanted to prosecute them.
His attorney general was pretty good at

642
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:28.760
fending him off. Who was you
know who also opposed the Japanese in tournament

643
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:34.880
his own Attorney General, Francis Biddle, and fending him off to some extent.

644
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:39.440
But then finally they decided to prosecute
these sort of smaller fry, these

645
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:45.880
guys that would edit like a small
newsletter in Kansas, right that was anti

646
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:51.360
Roosevelt or you know, maybe had
some anti Semitic aspects, These sort of

647
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.679
rural people. These other people,
they didn't even know each other, and

648
00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:59.559
they were most of the most part
and accused of being part of a worldwide

649
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:05.960
Nazi conspiracy to create a Nazi government
in the United States. And it was

650
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.519
just bogus. I mean, they
scooped up some people with the boone and

651
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:14.360
stuff like that and put them in
this mass trial. But they would prosecute

652
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:19.360
people like initial prosecution was included.
This is the biggest name, the guy

653
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:23.000
that was the publisher of the New
York Enquirer, which later become the National

654
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:30.400
Enquirer. They brought all these people
in into this mass trial in Washington from

655
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:36.400
all around the country, accused them
of participating together in a conspiracy and went

656
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:42.880
to town force edition and they was
a big headline news. And gradually there

657
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.480
was more and more opposition to it. Even the Washington Post, which had

658
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:50.880
cheered it on, came out against
it eventually and compared it to the Moscow

659
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:58.519
Trials of the nineteen thirties, and
there was significant opposition to it. Initially

660
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.880
there was a lot of support because
I was, well, the government can't

661
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:05.239
be lying. Boy, they've caught
this big conspiracy here. Well, I

662
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:07.400
was going to ask for that was
looked into. There was nothing there.

663
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.760
Well, I mean esscentially. The
judge died. It was such it was

664
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:15.400
such a mess. He couldn't take
an maybe, you know, maybe just

665
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:17.400
put him in. He had a
heart attack and died and they never replaced

666
00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:21.920
him, and they basically the whole
thing collapsed. They never had heard it.

667
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.719
They dismissed the charges ultimately, but
it dragged on for a couple of

668
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.519
years. Well here's they formally dismissed
the charges. So here's the thing.

669
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:34.960
Because you you are somebody who is
well studied in a diverse, uh arena

670
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:37.599
of history. I mean, you're
you're, you're all over the place.

671
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:45.480
So I'm curious because coincidentally or not
coincidentally, but you know, at the

672
00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:52.159
same time that they're making this charge, there were groups that were trying to

673
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.000
do this. I mean, there
there was this this whole thing that was

674
00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:00.039
filmed in New York City in Madison
Square Garden of these people that talking pretty

675
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:07.679
openly about doing this. So were
they attaching it to that, you know

676
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:14.920
conspiracy that movement that you know,
because there is a white nationalist movement that

677
00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:19.039
was attempting to do this at one
point. Were they trying to attach these

678
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:23.400
people who were in opposition to Roosevelt
to that or were they creating a different

679
00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:29.599
conspiracy of sorts here? That's what
I'm trying to ask, because it does

680
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:35.639
seem as though there were people that
were pressing for this idea in that time

681
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:38.960
period. And then, of course, you know, once war was engaged

682
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:43.800
with, you know, World War
two, once the United States enters it,

683
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.119
and a lot of that stuff kind
of gets real quiet because nobody wants

684
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:52.440
to do that in public now if
Germany's the enemy, right, kind of

685
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:55.719
drove it underground. But I mean
there were these movements, right, So

686
00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:00.199
I mean, is this them trying
to graft it on to the existing movement

687
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:07.199
or were they suggesting a completely different
conspiracy or could you even make heads or

688
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:12.199
tails of that? Well, I
think they are trying to graft it on

689
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:16.800
to it. Initial the initial sedition
prosecution did not include those kinds of people,

690
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:21.920
and then eventually they reformatted it after
it was already getting a lot of

691
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:24.800
criticism and brought in a lot of
these guys that, you know, you

692
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:30.760
could say to various degrees, you
know, were were pro Nazi, right,

693
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.320
you know, some booned people,
that kind of thing. There was

694
00:54:34.360 --> 00:54:37.559
a guy that there was a party
called the American Destiny Party, which was

695
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:42.800
kind of you know, I guess
you could say had had those aspects to

696
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.280
it. So you did, you
did attempt to sort of bring these people

697
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:49.559
in, but then they would include
these guys like there was this guy,

698
00:54:49.719 --> 00:54:52.039
like I said, who had a
newsletter in Kansas. He was an old

699
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:59.159
populist right, and ended up after
Pearl Harber saying we got to beat these

700
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.480
Japanese. I'm behind the president,
but was very critical of when he had

701
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.920
some anti Semitic views as well.
So it was a mix of people.

702
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.639
Of course, you had native anti
semitism in the United States as well.

703
00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:15.840
It was very prevalent anti Semitic statements
by Roosevelt, quite a few of them.

704
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.599
Well there was really now so that
kind of brought these people in,

705
00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:24.440
and I think what FDR with the
Hope was by some people Biddle was just

706
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:30.239
you know, trying to pease FDR, but the left people that supported sedition

707
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:35.199
trials thought well, maybe we can
show that these people had some sort of

708
00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.239
connection with more mainstream people. It's
very much like today. They wanted to

709
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:45.159
bring in people like Representative Hamilton Fish, they wanted to bring in people like

710
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:51.039
Charles Lindberg, they wanted to have
them prosecuted, very similar today, and

711
00:55:51.159 --> 00:55:54.199
some of them saw, well,
maybe these people will implicate them and we'll

712
00:55:54.199 --> 00:55:58.719
be able to go after the big
fish. That's what FDR wanted to do,

713
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.320
but Biddle, to his credit,
held him off. So I think

714
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:05.840
that that's something that's going on here. It's very similar today. Right,

715
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:09.320
Well, we'll get these J six
defendants and then we're gonna get you know,

716
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:14.199
Ted Cruz or whatever. Right,
you have people with that kind of

717
00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:16.960
hope, right right, And I
think that that was going on here.

718
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:22.079
So it's, you know again,
it's law enforcement doing what law enforcement does.

719
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:23.320
They take in the smaller guy,
try to flip him to get the

720
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:28.440
bigger one exactly, and that's you
know again, some people would say,

721
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:30.440
oh, that's all politics, but
no, that's also standard law enforcement.

722
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:35.000
That's what you do. You get
somebody who's clearly you know, working,

723
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.440
who might have the ability to reach
and get to an upper echelon person,

724
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:40.480
so that you can nail down that
upper echelon person because you're willing to let

725
00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:46.119
go the little guy. I often
make the drug explanation here because I'm familiar

726
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:51.039
with that world, and the idea
is that, yeah, you get the

727
00:56:51.079 --> 00:56:52.559
low level guy, and if he
knows the distributor, you let him go

728
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:54.760
so you can get the distributor,
and if you can get the distributor,

729
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:59.079
you get the guy who's the importer, and so on up the chain until

730
00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:02.199
you can finally go a Rico trial. And that's what they'll try and do.

731
00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:07.360
But is it realistic? And was
he not just turning against people for

732
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:12.559
the sake of propaganda or was it
just to put on a public face.

733
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:16.199
Because here's my last question. Uh, and it's about Joe Kennedy, Because

734
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:22.920
Joe Kennedy is let go by FDR
right, and why because what does everybody

735
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:27.800
always cite? Well, it was
because he sided with Chamberlain on appeasement for

736
00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:32.320
Hitler. But isn't that always supposed
to be the explanation? Yeah? And

737
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:37.400
and and he's you know, ambassadord
of the UK, and he's like basically

738
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.599
you know, he doesn't want to
go to war, so he's he's he's

739
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:45.400
not you know, they're not entirely
happy with them, right, He's kind

740
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:49.199
of he's kind of regarded as a
loose cannon who's not with the program,

741
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:52.679
which is, you know, we
want to get in this war somehow,

742
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:58.039
and he doesn't. He doesn't think
that way. Yeah, that's the context

743
00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:01.519
I was going for there, is
that basically, if you're in a position

744
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:06.280
of working for him, it's difficult. It's really interesting that Biddle kept his

745
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:10.480
job because couldn't the president have let
go the attorney general, right if he

746
00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:16.840
had not appeased him to some degree
during this entire you know, fiasco as

747
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:22.320
you describe it, of sedition,
which is interesting because again, like you're

748
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:23.880
saying, there's probably a bunch of
people that were caught up in this that

749
00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:28.320
were just well, they just didn't
say the right things, so they got

750
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:32.159
swept into it, and it kind
of takes away some of the sting from

751
00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:37.760
the actual sedition. Something that is
sedition, something that is somebody working,

752
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:39.440
you know, with an enemy to
give aid and comfort to an enemy,

753
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:44.079
et cetera, which I think is
actually more kin to the definition of treason,

754
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:49.480
but whatever, we're still in the
same ballpark, Okay, So you

755
00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:54.119
know it's it's crazy though, and
nobody thinks about this interesting though that you

756
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:58.800
did. Your timing is very good
with it, because indeed we're seeing the

757
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:00.360
same sort of thing where it's like, well, let's see if we can

758
00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:05.159
get the big group guys, uh, you know, by taking down some

759
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:07.800
of these others that happen to be
there, et cetera, et cetera.

760
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:10.679
Which you know, I've got mixed
feelings about the J six people, honestly,

761
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:14.719
because some of them I think were
just you know, swept up in

762
00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:16.599
the moment and not bright enough to
realize what they were swept up into.

763
00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:23.800
And others I think might have had, you know, greater aspirations. And

764
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:28.079
you know, since I'm not directly
involved with law enforcement, I don't have

765
00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:30.920
the investigation in front of me or
all the communications, I can't see it

766
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:35.159
all. But something is not right
about what's going on in some of these

767
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:39.760
cases, and often politics plays a
role. But anyway, that's my thoughts,

768
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:44.239
not as that's got nothing to do
with David Beato his thoughts here.

769
00:59:44.519 --> 00:59:46.400
It's just I'm bringing it up since
you brought it up. Well, I

770
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:52.760
mean that is that is a very
you know, interesting point. My argument

771
00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:58.000
is that sedition is such a malleable
term like rico. The rico is similar

772
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:01.719
all very valuable term, and nine
times out of ten what you see is

773
01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:06.719
there's you know, they use it
as a catch all kind of thing.

774
01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.840
And I think that's what you're finding
in Ja six now, where there were

775
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:15.440
bad actors there. My argument is, then prosecute them. If they're guilty

776
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:19.559
of vandalism, if they're guilty of
assault, go after them. Right,

777
01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:22.559
But you're getting people that are you
know, thrown in jail for over twenty

778
01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:25.639
years that weren't even there. So
I mean it gets a little dicey,

779
01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:31.079
you know. Can you advocate some
theory about the constitution that's regardless seditious?

780
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:36.840
You know, I would prefer let's
stick to some basics. Right, you're

781
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:40.320
guilty of theft, you're guilty of
violence, be prosecuted for that. Move

782
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:45.559
on. Where are we going to
go after the Daza protesters? Now?

783
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:49.719
It just gets ridiculous. Where exactly
where is the injured party? Where is

784
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:52.719
the damaged property? Because that's basically
what it comes down to with law enforcement,

785
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.679
and that's what it should be.
But you know again, I'm a

786
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:01.320
libertarian of some sort of stripe,
a weird stripe, but a libertarian basically

787
01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:07.400
anyway. All together, though,
this is an interesting portrait of FDR that

788
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:12.079
you present here, and I wonder
if you wouldn't give it a little summation

789
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:15.679
here, and I'll provide the link
in the show notes for you guys for

790
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:20.360
the podcast, so that you can
go ahead and purchase the book. I

791
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:23.719
definitely advise it, which, by
the way, the way that Professor Beta

792
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:30.239
writes, I like it. It's
not I don't know how to describe it,

793
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:34.920
but look, it doesn't wind up
going over your head. I don't

794
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:37.039
have this feeling like I'm reading a
book by a professor, okay, which

795
01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:42.719
is a good thing to me,
right, because I don't like being lectured

796
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:45.559
to, which is very weird.
I feel like I'm being lectured to by

797
01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:50.239
books. Yes, Chuck, you're
a weird guy, but it does happen

798
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:52.840
where you're kind of being lectured to. That's not it. There's a very

799
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:57.159
interesting story that's laid out here which
I did not complete, and I'm going

800
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:02.159
to complete because it's a fascinating portrait
and present some things that I guarantee you

801
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:07.480
will not see in a lot of
the very sanitized viewpoints of this particular his

802
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:13.079
oracle figure. So it is through
the Let me let me get this up

803
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:17.320
in front of me real fast here, because it's there. It is through

804
01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:21.199
the Independent Institute. I'll give you, guys the link for that, and

805
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:24.039
I'll also give you the because you
can buy it there. But also I'm

806
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:28.480
gonna give you a link. I
guess it's on Amazon as well and a

807
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:30.679
few other places. Yeah, it's
available on Amazon, which means you'll be

808
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:36.679
able to probably get the kindle or
the paperback version appears to be available in

809
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:42.119
both from what I can see,
but either way, I would strongly suggest

810
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:45.800
it and also take a look at
the other work that we talked about on

811
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:51.800
the show on TRM Howard, which
is a rather undercovered, not really featured

812
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:58.119
individual in civil rights history, which, believe me, you really should take

813
01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:00.480
a look at it, because he's
a different sort of guy. I like

814
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:02.760
him. I like him a lot
better than I do a lot of the

815
01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:07.840
guys in the sixties, to be
honest with you. I mean, I

816
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:12.880
get the idea of peace and nonviolence, but this man had the pragmatic sense

817
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:15.280
to be carrying a gun when you
need it to and I like him.

818
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:23.679
So anyway, there goes my commentary, Professor Paido, Sorry but yeah again

819
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:28.880
the New Deal's war on the Bill
of Rights, the untold story of FDR's

820
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:34.000
concentration, camps, censorship, and
mass surveillance, because indeed, at my

821
01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:39.320
commentary again, mass surveillance existed long
before the Twitter files existed, long before

822
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:44.760
Oh what was that guy snowden right, you know who told us about the

823
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:50.480
NSA. Although you know what,
the federal government plays many a role in

824
01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:54.039
this book for sure, and shutting
down dissent and all that good stuff.

825
01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:59.800
And monitoring people's communications. Yeah,
that existed before the cell phone too,

826
01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:03.400
just so you know. But anyway, how would you give a little summation

827
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:09.880
on this book, like what is
your overall sort of not conclusion. I

828
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:13.199
don't I want people to read your
conclusion, which I have not yet,

829
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:15.880
but I'm waiting to get there and
want to see what it is you conclude

830
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:19.320
from this work. But I mean, give people an idea of what you

831
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:24.239
would like them to take away partially
from this book, so that they still

832
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:29.199
need to read it to get out
of the title really says it in a

833
01:04:29.239 --> 01:04:31.800
lot of ways. The New Deal's
war on the Bill of Rights so focused

834
01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:35.360
on that, and of course there's
an irony there because FDR is the guy

835
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:41.000
that gave us the Four Freedoms right
that four freedom speech, which I sort

836
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:45.320
of tell the story, you know, put that in some sequence. But

837
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:50.360
basically my argument is that this administration
was the most hostile towards the Bill of

838
01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:55.119
Rights. I would say, certainly
any modern president, and I would include

839
01:04:55.519 --> 01:05:04.320
I would include Woodrow Wilson across the
board speech privacy, certainly Japanese and Tournament.

840
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:09.360
So I give a lot of examples. There's a lot of primary research.

841
01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:14.559
I also look at the racial angle. One of the targets of the

842
01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:20.960
New Dealers was a black Republican in
Memphis. At the time blacks could vote

843
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:27.639
in Tennessee in the organized a rally
multi racial rallying was shut down by an

844
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:30.719
aly of FDR. Anyway, you
covered it for the most part, But

845
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.320
let me sort of say one hopeful
aspect of this, this is a lesson

846
01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:39.039
for today. I would say,
if there's a lesson here that you have

847
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:45.199
many examples of left right coalitions defending
the Bill of Rights that you do not

848
01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:49.320
see as much today, for example, Norman Thomas, I guess you could

849
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:54.280
say the AOC of his time,
and the fact that he's the whether Bernie

850
01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:58.480
Sanders of his time. He's the
head of the Socialist Party. Socialist Party

851
01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:04.559
candidate is a tiger. You're defending
civil liberties for conservatives and for others,

852
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.199
and you're going to find that on
the left as well. During World War

853
01:06:09.239 --> 01:06:13.719
Two, a lot of the critics
of the sedition trial were new dealers who

854
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:18.000
said this has gone too far.
So that is a hopeful aspect. And

855
01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:24.679
we can find many, many examples
in there of pushback, including by the

856
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:31.239
bureaucracy, lower elements of the bureaucracy
and the FBI and the Justice Department and

857
01:06:31.519 --> 01:06:38.000
in law and so forth, and
we need I would like to see more

858
01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:42.400
of that, and maybe someday we
will see more of that coalitions between the

859
01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.119
left and the right to say,
look, our civil liberties are only going

860
01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:49.639
to be threatened, threatened unless we
defend your civil liberties. That would be

861
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:53.639
the asel you used to do that. They don't really do it like they

862
01:06:53.760 --> 01:06:56.760
used to. Yeah, no longer. And that's the thing is that,

863
01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:00.679
Look, I can feel that hopeful
message, but then I feel defeated again.

864
01:07:00.719 --> 01:07:04.360
And I'll tell you why, because
the left and the right of this

865
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:12.239
day, this era that you're studying
here is irrecognizable. It's not even close

866
01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.440
to what we have today. In
my mind, the left and the right

867
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:19.480
are not reconcilable with what they were
then. It seems like to me,

868
01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:25.360
I agree with you. You had
friendships across the political spectrum. Someone like

869
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:30.000
jhl Menkin kind of a libertarian,
really right, You had friendships with everybody.

870
01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:32.639
They all loved him, a lot
of them did socialists, etc.

871
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:38.360
And you see that Norman Thomas,
one of his big friends was the Republican

872
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:42.599
candidate Alfred Land, and they were
a tag team for civil liberties. Can

873
01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:45.840
you imagine that with AOC now or
even Bernie Sanders. So I agree with

874
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:50.760
you that is a difference, and
it's a sad difference. Yeah, definitely.

875
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:55.760
But one more time, just for
the record, guys, it is

876
01:07:56.599 --> 01:08:00.599
the New Deal's War on the Bill
of Rights, the untold story of FDR's

877
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:05.519
concentration camp, censorship and mass surveillance. And the author is David T.

878
01:08:06.679 --> 01:08:13.000
Beato b E I t O.
I think I spelled it right. I

879
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:16.920
took it down from in front of
me But anyway, I definitely recommend this

880
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:24.640
book. It is very interesting and
once again another look and a more honest

881
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:29.800
look, I would say, at
this political figure that still does retain a

882
01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:32.399
great deal of popularity. The ocell
effect is done for tonight. No matter

883
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:35.079
who you are, where you are, when you are, I'm merely o'celly,

884
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:40.119
all of you are indeed the effect. Go ahead and follow the links

885
01:08:40.159 --> 01:09:35.479
in the show notes. Wall Street, Window dot Global, Silver, the

886
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:43.239
stock Market, wall Stream, Window
dot dot. Perhaps you're invested deeply,

887
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.840
Perhaps you're not in deep enough.
Maybe you're thinking about getting started. Wall

888
01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:51.880
Street Windows don com doo don com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of

889
01:09:51.920 --> 01:09:57.680
the War State, understood these trends
professionally for many years, and now he

890
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:05.079
gives you the benefit of his knowledge. Wallstreet Window dott go there, now

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go there, Now go there Now
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892
01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:43.439
Do you like history, real history
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Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear bombs
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01:10:48.520 --> 01:10:55.359
author Mike Swanson, with new documentation
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895
01:10:55.479 --> 01:11:00.520
to events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War nuclear BOMs in

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01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:06.199
nation building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty
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copy today at Amazon dot com.
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The War State by Michael Swanson explains
the great national transformation that took place

899
01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:21.479
and put the Kennedy presidency in the
context of the times, and reveals never

900
01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:27.399
before published information about the Cuban missile
crisis. President Kennedy would not have been

901
01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:31.319
assassinated if he had been president two
hundred years ago. His assassination took place

902
01:11:31.359 --> 01:11:35.159
in the context of the Cold War
and the rise of the national security state.

903
01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:40.239
Before World War II, the United
States was a continental republic. In

904
01:11:40.279 --> 01:11:44.640
the decade that followed, it became
an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis

905
01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:47.760
LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range

906
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:53.039
missiles on the island armed with nuclear
warheads that they could not destroy because they

907
01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:57.079
were on mobile launchers. Their invasion
could have led to a Third World War,

908
01:11:57.359 --> 01:12:00.359
and they wanted to go to war
anyway. The War State by Michael

909
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:04.800
Swanson reveals why and we'll show you
what President Kennedy was up against. For

910
01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:10.800
more information the War State dot com. Go ahead, call it the truth

911
01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:13.520
about the JAFA assassination. Right,
Well, what do you want to know?

912
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:17.560
Diddy Baker's wild claim? Oswald girlfriends
you knew Ruby and Barry cancer weapons?

913
01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:20.279
Really, I imagine I could claim
I have four wheels. It doesn't

914
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:25.399
make me a wagon. But okay, Bilby and I'm trying to present the

915
01:12:25.479 --> 01:12:28.319
murder of John Kennedy. Come on
now, has a real effort on the

916
01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:32.520
DAFA assassination. Book into her claim. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith

917
01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:36.680
Baker in her own words. You'll
get the results for a digital copy of

918
01:12:36.760 --> 01:12:42.399
a book where Walt Brown utilizes her
own words and the known evidence in the

919
01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:46.560
case to get at well a different
perspective. Let's say you can get Judith

920
01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:51.239
Barry Baker in her own words from
the author himself, signed if you request

921
01:12:51.279 --> 01:12:58.239
it by contacting doctor Brown at ki
as jfk at aol dot com. It's

922
01:12:58.279 --> 01:13:02.960
a fun book and it actually dissects
the many, many fantastic claims Judith Barry

923
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:06.159
Baker in her own words. Thank
you for all the great information.