WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.400 Become a patron For just five dollars a month, you get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.199 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ADS. Twenty dollars a month 4 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:18.600 will get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up 5 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.760 now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard Here, 6 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:29.280 As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences 7 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:33.240 around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Oslow 8 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:37.039 will be made twenty first through the twenty fifth. Go to NDC Oslo dot 9 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:42.759 com to register. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. 10 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:48.960 Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. NDC Porto is happening 11 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.280 October sixteenth through the twentieth. The early bird discount for DC Porto ends July 12 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:58.280 twenty first. Go to Eddcporto dot com to register and check out the full 13 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:15.239 lineup of conferences at DC conferences dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot 14 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:18.760 net Rocks. This Carl Franklin and this is Richard Campbell. I'm very excited, 15 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.079 Richard, because my one of my heroes of podcasting, Grant Barrett, 16 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.239 is going to be with us in just a few minutes. Um. But 17 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.680 first let's do better, no framework and get out of the way. Awesome 18 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.040 man would have got Believe it or not, I started a new podcast. 19 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:45.959 Are you kidding? I'm stupid? I don't know, because both put several 20 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.680 hours of podcasts a weekend, so it's not surprising. Yeah. So this 21 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.480 one is a personal more like a personal journal. Oh yeah, I'm just 22 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.879 finding people that I've met in my travels and I've worked with that I find 23 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.079 really interesting and I think would also their stories would be very interesting to my 24 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.840 listeners. And so it's called no Excuse for boredom. I love it. 25 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.240 It's a no excuse for boredom dot com. You can't believe you got that 26 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:15.719 domain name. I have a way with getting domain names. I don't know. 27 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.759 Yeah, yep, no excuse for boredom dot com. So there's only 28 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.080 two episodes up there. Um. The first one is Dan Grief. He's 29 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:27.000 a guy from England who I know, you don't know, but he I 30 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.680 basically talked to him about the difference between new England and Old England in terms 31 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:36.360 of language and slang, and great, you probably like this too. I 32 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:40.360 asked him to define a whole bunch of British slang words and phrases that confused 33 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:45.639 me when I first heard them, like oh uh, okay, are you 34 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:50.120 trying to take the piss out of me? The classic? I never The 35 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.199 only time I ever heard that was like on a Gordon Ramsey show, right, 36 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.240 and I'm like, what the heck are they talking about. I kind 37 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.000 of got from the context that it means like are you kidding with me? 38 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.199 Or are you are you just trying to pull a fast one or whatever, 39 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.800 but I'd never heard it before. So there's just a long list. Yeah, 40 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:14.039 there's something very cathe or esque about that. It really put in a 41 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:19.400 stint exactly. I just didn't get it. So there's it's just funny. 42 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:23.039 And then the second one is with Randy Judkins. Oh man, I remember 43 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:25.319 him. Yeah, my friend from in the early days, my friend from 44 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:29.759 Maine who did that first dot net what is dot net video? And he's 45 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.159 a jungling magician, comedian. He was so funny too. Oh had me 46 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:36.400 rolling and stitches. All right, Well, enough of that. That's what 47 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.800 I got who was talking to us today? Richard grabbed a comment off a 48 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.159 show sixteen o five, the one we did back in twenty eighteen, so 49 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.240 that's a while ago. And it was actually about IoT and edge competing. 50 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.360 But we were taught and this is Jared Rhodes we were talking to. I 51 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.439 don't even remember this because of course you remember every show. It was only 52 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:58.400 five years ago. Wait, oh no, that's me. But the latter 53 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.360 half of the show we were talking about data collection a lot because these you 54 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:03.680 know, we were talking about how small the hardware gotten and you can put 55 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:08.319 it just about anywhere and nothing. It's always uploading to the cloud. You 56 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.560 know, there's consequences to all of that. And Mike comment on the show, 57 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.000 and admittedly he commented, you know, within a month of it being 58 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.879 published several years ago, he said, hey, this is a great ethical 59 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:21.560 discussion about collecting data. I always revert back to Kransberg's first law tech it 60 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.839 is neither good or bad, nor is it neutral. I think that's actually 61 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:30.319 his quote, but okay, I don't disagree with the quote. Mentoring a 62 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.240 store gathering data is troubling. You obviously opt in. And this is when 63 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:38.519 we were talking about some of the projects I've been involved with where they're actually 64 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.920 instrumenting shelves to see what you look at, what you pick up, what 65 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.360 you put down, all of those kinds of things. And so the point 66 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.199 of you obviously opt in by seeing the monitor continue to enter, But is 67 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:51.800 that enough? Shouldn't the customer not to what extent their behavior will be analyzed? 68 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.800 And for what purpose? What are the patrons who beyond their control only 69 00:04:56.839 --> 00:04:59.720 have access to that store, are you know, aliening their business and taking 70 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:03.040 a v to the system to gather data? Programming ethics have always fascinated me. 71 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:08.439 Recent protests by Google employees now again twenty eighteen. Yeah, and that 72 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:13.439 was when Google was going into China and they were demanding the Great Firewall stuff 73 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:17.879 and censoring and so forth. Recent protests by Google employees over developing censoring products 74 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.920 for the Chinese government and the military machine learning for the US government highlight the 75 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:27.800 backlashes these companies faced with adopting technologies for different applications. And I'm like man 76 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.959 five years later and there's no protests than ever. But it always boils down 77 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.399 to this, you will be able to find a developer to do what you 78 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.160 want to have done. There will always be someone with the ethics that aligned 79 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:44.480 to yours or what desperate enough to do that work. This is unique to 80 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.040 programming. However, programming has a unique advantage to being cheap to scale, 81 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:51.720 so one developer can have a profound impact on humanity versus one unethical police officer 82 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:57.040 or one unethical investor. Had Bertie made Off, I love this reference. 83 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.240 Had Bertie made Off known how to make an ASP website, he could have 84 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.600 offered his services anonymously to many more people. It was a great discussion on 85 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:09.839 what to two about this responsibility. How do companies talk about this? My 86 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:15.000 experience is most don't, don't yeah, but we will eventually need to Yeah. 87 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.079 Wow, thanks you, Thank Mike, you killed it. I was 88 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.560 so glad to find this comment as I dug through knowing where we were going 89 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:27.079 to go today, and so thanks thanks for this. It is absolutely the 90 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.720 conversations we need to have and are having. And a copy of music Codebuy 91 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.199 is on its way to un If you'd like a copy of Music Code by 92 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.920 write a comment on the website at dondt Rocks dot com or on the facebooks 93 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.600 we publish every show there, and if you comment there and everybody in the 94 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.120 show. We'll send you a copy of music Code Buy and definitely follow us 95 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.600 on mastadon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social, and I'm 96 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:53.040 Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Send us a two Rudy too too. 97 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.759 It's still funny, Yeah, it's still funny. Okay, we're still in 98 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.480 grade seven. I know I'm always going to be that way. This is 99 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:05.199 a really exciting time to have Grant Barrett on the show because I think Grant 100 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:15.720 exists in the intersection of language and ethics and tach. So let me read 101 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.319 his bio for you. Away with Words, Wayward Radio dot org co host 102 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:26.160 and co producer, Grant Barrett is an American lexicographer and linguist specializing in slang 103 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:29.959 and new words. The public radio show has heard from coast to coast in 104 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:34.360 the United States. It's a Wayward Radio dot org slash radio and around the 105 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:40.759 world by podcasts Wayward Radio dot org slash Podcasts. He has helped produce dozens 106 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.920 of dictionaries and has authored three books of his own. He's a voracious reader, 107 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.519 reads and speaks a bit of French and Spanish, and spent years working 108 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:54.199 in the jargon rich jungles of information technology. Though born and raised in Missouri 109 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.639 and having been a long time resident of New York City, Grant now lives 110 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.399 in San Diego, California, with his wife, also linguist and lexicographer, 111 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:07.439 and their young son. His personal website is Grant Barrett with two tis dot 112 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.560 com. Welcome Grant, Hello, how you doing Hey in the bio and 113 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.600 the u URLs. Yeah. Absolutely. First of all, I just got 114 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.519 to say your podcast as a staple in my house. You know, it's 115 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.560 a radio show too, heard coast to coast in the United States as you 116 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:26.319 just read, Yes, you're right, and also independently, voraciously independent, 117 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.240 right yeah, yeah, not a part of NPR, but heard on a 118 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.759 lot of NPR stations. It's hard to explain that to people, but it's 119 00:08:31.799 --> 00:08:37.480 a it's an one, tiny little nonprofit. We just the radio stations are 120 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.879 clients of ours, so we just so cool. I talked to the radio 121 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.879 stations because you have an MPR sound, well you could easily be MPR. 122 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:48.080 Yeah, we are on NPR stations, so we take the NPR sound. 123 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.720 But we were just added to a bunch of new stations Miami and Tucson. 124 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:58.799 And actually we're now heard in Roswell, New Mexico. Wow, Aliensis are 125 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:03.480 listening. Excellent, it's the caller there. Let me tell you where that 126 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.200 comes from, you know, Beetle Juice. Yeah, that stuff a great 127 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.720 movie, all right. So the reason that I got in touch with you 128 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:16.919 is because I was listening to your show and Martha read a story or a 129 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:24.639 comment or an anecdote about She went to chat GPT and told it to give 130 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:31.759 her a one paragraph description of a way with words, and it came up 131 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.759 with this what she thought was a completely unique paragraph. She said, she 132 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.519 googled each one of them, each one of the sentences, and they could 133 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:46.720 not be found elsewhere on the Internet, and then started this moral discussion about 134 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.440 you know, there's people who are really afraid of this, all right, 135 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.519 of chat GPT, and of language evolving in general. And I think one 136 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.679 of you, maybe it was you, said that, well, back in 137 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.240 the days of what was it Socrates or ancient Greece, they were concerned that 138 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:09.679 if they taught, if they educated people, and books, you know, 139 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:13.039 people were writing books. Obviously they weren't writing, you know, printing books, 140 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.360 but if they were writing, that was going to make people stupid, 141 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:18.799 or because they wouldn't have to remember so much. Yeah, at the time 142 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:26.120 and the ancient Greeks, you were expected to memorize and recite allowed, and 143 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:31.919 once writing became more standard, you might put it on a sheepskin, vellum 144 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:37.000 or papyrus. People are like, wait a second, you're not memorizing this, 145 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.279 You're just gonna go and read it. It's not in your head. 146 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.879 How do you actually know anything? Right, If you just know where to 147 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.399 get it, that's not knowledge. It's stored out of your brain. You 148 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.600 got to think that was a technological advance, that better writing implements had come 149 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.639 along. You weren't chiseling in stone or pressing in clay. And well, 150 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:01.679 it's the evidence of every technological advance is as a of resisting force, there's 151 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.759 always opposition. This was the same screaming match that happened when Gutenberg made the 152 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:11.919 press. Well, everything, all technological advances, has pushed back. There's 153 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:18.440 not a one. I mean, somebody probably argued against fire. It burns 154 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.159 somebody, somebody, nothing good will come of it. Somebody argued against the 155 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.720 wheel. But wait, it doesn't have a stopping point. It can just 156 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.639 keep going. How well, I know that when I go to sleep, 157 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.679 it'll step, You'll still be there in the morning. Yeah, right, 158 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.480 roll away. Yeah, yeah, it's circular, that's satanic. I don't 159 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:37.799 I don't know. We can't trust people with new technology that I think that's 160 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.159 what it comes down to, right, and that's why people. But on 161 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:43.519 a larger point, what's funny about this is, you know, since we've 162 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:48.759 booked this interview for the three of us to talk, the larger conversation has 163 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:56.080 continued as fast as all the GPT out growths and companies. And I mean, 164 00:11:56.279 --> 00:12:01.480 how many how many companies were founded in Delaware? Since so much of 165 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.919 this conversation hasn't moved on since we just booked this interview, Margat and I 166 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.080 talked about it on the air. I think the way to discuss this isn't 167 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.840 necessarily from an ethical standpoint so much as it is from a personal standpoint. 168 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:22.080 It's Martha took. Her approach was really interesting as a former magazine writer, 169 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.720 so know she were for Glamor and for the Washington Post and some other things. 170 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:31.279 She just said, well, if I was still in the trenches, 171 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.399 what to stop my competitor from taking all my gigs and using this to write 172 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.200 rough drafts and then tuning them up a little bit and turning them in and 173 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.720 beating me to every deadline, taking all of the greatest gigs, and nobody 174 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.200 being the wiser. Now we know that there are tools that can help detect 175 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:54.080 the GPT derived you know articles. Yeah, but that's today. Yeah, 176 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.279 she's got a good point. Yeah, except that quality is really not that 177 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:00.159 good. Like, is it ultimately saving you time? I don't even I'm 178 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:01.960 not even convinced. Well, that's the question you still have, Like I 179 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.279 said, you have to tune it still, right? You still? I 180 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.320 mean what if you what if your machine learning was based on your own writing 181 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:13.200 and not the larger world. Yeah, it's totally going to be as smart 182 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.480 as you and invariably not as right. What if what if it was a 183 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.919 two set process. The first draft was just from the larger chat GTPT and 184 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.960 the second draft said, now run it through the corpus of my own writing. 185 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.960 So it sounds like me. I read an interesting opinion I think it 186 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.840 was in Washington Post about from a teacher who said teachers need not worry about 187 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:43.360 AI, and the pushback was, there's a simple solution, just make tests 188 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.960 in how in person or even oral exams. Yeah. Handwriting, Yeah, 189 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:54.279 handwriting or you know, Oh you mentioned that things have progressed. I've noticed 190 00:13:54.320 --> 00:14:00.840 that there's a word Press Chat GPT plug in. Now, oh, because 191 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:05.399 that's going to work. Well, all the SEO animals love this crap, 192 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.360 right, How many happy SEO blogs are we going to see with this? 193 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.120 But I just gon alert them up with Google ads. Yeah, well they 194 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.399 were doing that anyway. This is, I know, but now more and 195 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:20.559 easier. Yeah. I would wonder if it'll actually be better. I don't 196 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.519 know, because it might actually be worse. So I want to talk about 197 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.360 So we're at a bridging point here where there's a before and and after, 198 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.879 but I wanted to talk about and compare this to another bridging point. I 199 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.759 went back to school as an older student in his twenties, and I went 200 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.799 to Columbia University to get a degree. And I was right there at the 201 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:43.000 point where universities weren't really decided whether or not laptops should be allowed in all 202 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.039 classrooms. So this was two thousand so and I was at Columbia University, 203 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:52.240 and I have horrific handwriting. So I had one professor who allowed me to 204 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.720 take my exams on a laptop, and a number of the other students were 205 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.360 kind of resentfull of this. But most students didn't even have a laptop class 206 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.720 to take notes. But now it is really standard to have a laptop and 207 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.120 class to take notes. And the difficulty is you don't know what a student 208 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.879 is doing unless you can see their screen. Yeah, and now the difficulties 209 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.600 that we saw a lot of this during the pandemic. The difficulty is if 210 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.360 you're taking an exam remotely, you have to lock it down as all this 211 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.879 software and all these businesses that are designed to track eye movement and mouse movement, 212 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.559 and they'll even pan the room with your camera to know what else and 213 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.759 who else is in the room. So we've kind of leaped this whole thing 214 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.600 where it's just assumed you have a laptop, and now they're worried about the 215 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:37.720 laptop doing too much, rather than it shouldn't even be in the room. 216 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.080 I have friends who are professors who say, you have no idea how rampant 217 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.600 cheating is, Like it's unbelievable, no doubt. And you know, it's 218 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.639 funny because there's another bridge point that I want to talk about when we talk 219 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:54.279 about technology kind of going from oh my god, this is a problem too. 220 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.080 Of course it's here, and I think GPT and things like this, 221 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.519 all this machine learning will go of course it's here, or we'll just at 222 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.159 some point wonder and laugh about this panic. UM I remember as an IT 223 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.919 guy, I was largely on the support side for ad agencies and publishing companies. 224 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:15.799 UM. I remember teaching people to use the internet. Right where we 225 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.919 went from a completely unnetworked office with standalone computers on desks and the most networking 226 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:25.799 we have was maybe to a printer, to hooking up email for the first 227 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.720 time, and people going, what am I going to use this for? 228 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:32.399 What does this do? I don't know anybody outside the office, what is 229 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.240 it? What's an email address? Why is it that this AT symbol kind 230 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:38.240 of put another symbol there instead. I don't like the AT symbol, you 231 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:42.120 know. Um lots of stuff like that. One woman printing out all of 232 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.039 her emails and filing them because she's at She's like, oh, you know, 233 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:52.799 things like that, And now emails emails actually almost day pass a emails 234 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.159 like kind of like people like, oh I don't want email? Who uses 235 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.000 email anymore? So? I don't know I make notes in my contact. 236 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.240 Now, what's the prime medium this person likes? Yeah, how am I 237 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:03.279 going to reach God? Help us? I wish we had email as the 238 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.880 primary one still, because I wish I have fifteen different ways to reach people. 239 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.759 I don't know which one, but anyway, I just want to talk 240 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:15.160 about this instead of getting this moral panic and an ethical panic. Really, 241 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.680 let's talk about this as an inflection point. And we've seen these, whether 242 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:26.279 it's moving from speaking or memorizing our knowledge versus writing it down, whether it's 243 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.000 should we have laptops in the classroom versus having them the class expecting them in 244 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:36.240 the classroom, to should we have email to expecting to have email. There's 245 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.480 all these different times in history where technology has gone from oh my god, 246 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:42.720 this is scary too. Of course we have this. This is scary, 247 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.880 right, And I think that's where we are with this. So I know 248 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.079 that you are one of your things on way with words is that you are 249 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:57.160 very much always trying to talk people off the ledge of being like, you 250 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:03.599 know, grammar Nazis, usage Nazis, and you're like, like, language 251 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.680 is changing, you need to change with it. You know, it's not 252 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:08.240 the world doesn't going to stop and change for you. But that does not 253 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:14.680 excuse figuratively and literally, like I'm not okay with that. Calm yourself. 254 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.119 Yeah, see see this is exactly why. Right. So yeah, you're 255 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:25.960 like, it's changing, and people wonder why how these things work back in 256 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.440 time? You know, how did something turn into something else? And you 257 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.480 guys do the research. You you're like, well, it's because well maybe 258 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:37.039 you can give me a better example. But it happens, it changes, 259 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:42.000 and it's often based on misunderstandings, right, uh. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes 260 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:48.400 it's just natural where one c one category that was broad becomes specific. For 261 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.039 example, girl used to mean boy, right, how is that weird? 262 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.799 I mean yeah, well, because it was more general, it could mean 263 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:00.920 a young person in general, you know, or so sometimes broad topic. 264 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.920 One of my favorite ones to talk about is how the very specific psychotherapy term 265 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.319 of ano retentive now just means oh, they're particular. So it left the 266 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:15.240 specific domain where it's very precise in this profession to be used an everyday language 267 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.880 by people who are not you know, they're not professional at all. Do 268 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:25.559 you find an author who use that phrase in some kind of popular media that 269 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:29.799 then it became part of the regular lexicon, it wasn't one as many you 270 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:34.039 know, the things often leave their specific police jargon, you know, often 271 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.839 leaves, for example, to leave the specific language of the police and show 272 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.039 up in hip hop and then it becomes slang in the street. Right. 273 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.160 So so a lot of times the bridge there is some kind of contact, 274 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.640 but it usually requires repeated contact and not one point of contact. So I 275 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.559 guess, given all that history of you in Martha, are you a little 276 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.839 more scared with AI than the rest of us? Are you? Are you 277 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.960 like, is this just falling into this is just another inflection point and don't 278 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.839 worry and everybody. Yeah, I think that's another inflection point. And you 279 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.519 know, I think on the segment we aired on the show, I can't 280 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.079 remember how it ended up when we edited it. I think I specifically said 281 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.480 I want to avoid the term AI. I don't believe this is AI. 282 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.839 I think it's just machine learning, right, and it is, And to 283 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.720 call it AI is over has a lot of the AI we've been calling AI 284 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:26.279 for decades is an AI. It's just sophisticated conditionals. Yeah. The way 285 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.920 I've been describing it is artificial intellages is what you call something when it doesn't 286 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.400 work. As soon as it does work, it'll get a new name. 287 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.000 Yeah. Yeah, Well, although I think that some of the stupid things 288 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:41.440 it's producing are just as stupid as humans. Potentially stupider, Yeah, potentially 289 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.960 stupider. The opposite of artificial intelligence is natural stupidity, right, Yeah, 290 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.240 although you know, it's a ton of operator air from what I'm saying, 291 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.880 a lot of those stupid results are just because the operators don't know what the 292 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.559 hell they're going. Why are you having existential debates with a search engine? 293 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:57.240 Right? We all saw the one where we're all laughing, Like the guy 294 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.480 who wrote this very ponderous piece at the Washington Boats were like, yeah, 295 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:06.559 dude, you're like completely treating it like an entity. It's literally every single 296 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.240 time you ask it a question, it's only uh, I know, it 297 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:12.839 doesn't have a brain, you're acting like as a brain. It's software. 298 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:18.200 But here's the thing, though, Um, companies are going to get dinged 299 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.359 for these things representing them in ways they don't want to be represented. Yeah. 300 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.799 Um, this has just happened with with being right. Microsoft, they 301 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:34.240 basically allowed open ended discussions with their AI, and what happens they've noticed is 302 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:40.640 after maybe twenty iterations back and forth on the same subject, the box starts 303 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:44.599 to lose its You know what, Now I now know why I actually was 304 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.359 able to talk to some folks on the inside. Yeah, because it's a 305 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:52.720 software problem. It's a bug interesting like a bug bug, or like it's 306 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.160 it's it is solvable. They brought but they solved it by not hitting the 307 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.559 limits. Look this whole mechanism about context, right, yeah. Yeah, 308 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.079 So your parser reads what you've written and it tokenizes it, so it knows 309 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:07.839 how to respond to it, and it puts it into cash. So the 310 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.759 next thing, then it writes a response, which is also tokenized. Then 311 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.559 you write your next response in order to maintain context, it tokenizes that, 312 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.839 then it reads them all together and creates a response. Eventually you overflow the 313 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.799 cash. Oh so you've got too many layers of recursive tokenizing. That's right, 314 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:26.440 you just run out of room. They've only allocated so much space for 315 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.039 tokens. This is why you get it. Well, the oldest tokens fall 316 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.000 off the back, and the oldest tokens are typically the ones shaping things. 317 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.720 Yeah, because you need the umbrella thought. Because a lot of times your 318 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.440 first question sets your umbrella, your umbrella. Yeah. The best demonstration I've 319 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:42.759 done of this is I fired up chat GPT. It says, only talk 320 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:48.240 to me an iambic pentameter, and then just chat away with it, and 321 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.240 at some point it forgets. I love when you give it rules and it's 322 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.720 like a four year old. Right. Yeah, I told you not to 323 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.160 talk to me, but you want to know what the limits of the cash 324 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.200 are. Put key instructions at the beginning of the cap. But to get 325 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.400 back to the bing thing, this chatbot kept insisting to New York Times reporter 326 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.400 Kevin Ruse I guess that he didn't actually love his wife and said that it 327 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:14.480 would like to steal nuclear secret and yeah, okay, but it's a bot. 328 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.079 It's not going to steal. There was another situation where somebody in one 329 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.720 of our rds actually convinced the bot that, you know, fifteen plus three 330 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.160 equal twenty one, and the bot said, yes, I'm sorry, you 331 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:30.680 are right, fifteen plus three equals twenty one. And then I to test 332 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.920 it, went back and asked it, what's fifteen plus three and said eighteen. 333 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.359 Yeah, because it didn't remember that previous conversation, because that's not how 334 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.400 it's spelled. It doesn't have the context from all the other conversations it's had 335 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:45.839 with all these other people. It only has its context from you, because 336 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.920 when it does combine all the contexts, you end up with TA. Okay, 337 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.200 you got to explain that the original TA was the original Microsoft bot. 338 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.799 I go back at twenty eighteen, which within ten hours had turned into a 339 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:02.839 race of psychopath because it was combining everything that people were throwing at it, 340 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:04.200 right, Yeah, and they were, and they were testing its limits. 341 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.680 There are tons of edge cases. It wasn't when they took it down. 342 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.920 And yeah, I'm still not convinced they're not going to take this down. 343 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.119 I'm not. I'm not convinced either, and I don't. I think it's 344 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.920 a wonderful experiment. I think it's an experiment on the people using it as 345 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:22.160 much on the software itself. I wonder how much of this is almost another 346 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.319 kind of Stanford experiment. Yeah, maybe how lonely are people that they're having 347 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.279 these conversations, you know, I want to I want to tackle this from 348 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.680 another angle as well. You know what, This also reminds me of a 349 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:40.000 lot of the complaints about Mechanical Turk, when people were talking about what happens 350 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:45.640 when you put all this effort out to people to automate stuff that you know, 351 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.240 pennies on the task, right, And I've done that, and actually, 352 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.400 you know, one of my other lives, one of the reasons I 353 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.079 do the radio show, it was as a dictionary editor. So I actually 354 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.400 did a paper for the Dictionary Society of North America and presented it what when 355 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.559 you ask people on mechanical turk to write dictionary entries? And so I found 356 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.160 a bunch of fairly common words that weren't in any major dictionary, and I 357 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:12.599 created a bunch of tasks. And first I had people find sample sentences use 358 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.920 these words, and then I had another whole bunch of people use those sample 359 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.519 senses to approximate dictionary style entry. And then I had another batch of people 360 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:25.480 trim them down and make them look like ractual dictionary entries with parts of speech. 361 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.559 And it actually worked pretty well. It was more expensive than having an 362 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.440 actual dictionary editor to do it. But and now I have a paper proposal 363 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.480 before that same Dictionary Society to see what chat GPT does. And I'm also 364 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:45.759 going to use stable diffusion or a variety of some other AI image generator to 365 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:53.720 create dictionary style illustrations for those definitions. See if I can't scare the lexicographers, 366 00:25:53.880 --> 00:26:00.119 nice do blaying up against the plagiarism aspect too. I really that Martha 367 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.440 did that work to check all the sentences. Just because you had you scrape 368 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.599 something off the web and run it through a synonym engine, you know, 369 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.559 doesn't make it original work, right, it just doesn't search well, yeah, 370 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.799 because it's it's even though it's not good texts that generates it's plausible right, 371 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.400 Yes, Now it's definitely a Dunning Krueger amplifier. If you know nothing 372 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.799 about a subject, all this stuff looks great. Well, that's Wikipedia, 373 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:30.440 indeed. Yeah. I love going to Wikipedia and finding like something that's been 374 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.839 in there for years and I know it is fundamentally wrong. Yeah. I 375 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:38.319 go to Wikipedia for the footnotes. It gives me interesting places to go look 376 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:42.160 for information. It's not information itself. Well, that's the researcher's attitude. 377 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:45.240 I go to I go find a paper and I look at its bibliography and 378 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.400 suddenly I know how the path to become an expert on the thing. Sure 379 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.880 you at least know what those authors thought was important, whether they found or 380 00:26:53.920 --> 00:27:00.400 at least you know what other papers they pillaged for. Right. So another 381 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.920 point of inflection that you guys talked about on the show and still talk about 382 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:10.440 quite a bit is texting language and how you know people are afraid because kids 383 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.319 have their phones and their you know, their heads down in their phones. 384 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:17.480 And then we don't talk about it that much anymore. But you you talked 385 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.880 about that book and I went and read the book because internet is at it. 386 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:23.559 Yeah. Yeah, but Greta McCulloch, it's a fantastic book. It's 387 00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.759 one of the best books written on internet language ever. It's being used in 388 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.440 classrooms now, that's how good it is. It's awesome, and that the 389 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:36.000 basic tenant is, look, you know these this is definitely changing the language. 390 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.200 You know, law is a word now, not just land of lakes. 391 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.799 Yeah, it's in context. Yeah, and it doesn't mean lots of 392 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:47.519 love. It depends on the context. But yeah, it's context sensitive. 393 00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:52.319 What the reason I said we don't talk about texting languages for some people that 394 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:57.480 in their mind it's just these very specific things like b R B or LLL 395 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.680 or OMG. But there's so much more to it. And Gretchen gets into 396 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:10.880 that about all these different ways that we express emphasis and laughter and sarcasm or 397 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:17.799 community or insiderness or outsiderness and hesitation. There's so much more to there's so 398 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:22.160 many more layers, and what you think of as an error maybe having may 399 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.519 have a message attached to it. Lack of capitalization or punctuation may have a 400 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.160 point, and you need to understand that. But what's really important is that 401 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:37.240 again the moral panic about what does it all mean when people don't capitalize and 402 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:42.279 punctuate their text messages has vanished. It's mostly gone. And what we discovered 403 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.880 was that people really do care about their speech. And then when we all 404 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.599 moved from those bar phones that had we only had ten nine entry of our 405 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:59.440 text messages and went to touch phones with haptic response, with full keyboards, 406 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:03.279 we could finally type whole sentences. We did, right, most of us 407 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.079 do. Most of us type the best that we can. But then it 408 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.960 also then we also were brought in a chart of emojis, of ever ever 409 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.240 expanding emojis. Yeah, and those actually have expanded our ability to communicate. 410 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.599 They're the new hieroglyphs. Well, but they're necessary. There's something I talk 411 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.559 about and I don't have given this presentation a while, but I'll the version 412 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:30.279 of it I'll give to you is there's something called parallinguistic restitution. The vocal 413 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:36.400 version of speech is speech. The written version is only a pale invitation of 414 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:41.279 what we speak aloud, and it'll never catch up with the spoken version ever, 415 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.200 And so we're constantly trying to make the written version accommodate all the things 416 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.359 we can do with our spoken language, and it really never catches up. 417 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:56.000 But paral linguistic restitution is what we do when we make things like emoji, 418 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.000 or when we make things like emoticons, or when we do clever little things 419 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.960 with punctuation. It's when we're adding back in gestures by making a smiley face, 420 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:08.400 or we're adding back in a grimace by putting the right emojians. Still, 421 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.640 I never felt older than when my teenager came up to me and said, 422 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:18.920 hashtag I'm hungry. I don't know about old, but I've always thought, 423 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.839 you don't have to say hashtag. You don't have to say hashtag yeah 424 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.680 okay. But also every emotions no word following it. When it's just the 425 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.400 hash symbol, it's not a hashtag. It has to have a word following 426 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:32.240 it, so to stop that. Yeah, it's you can call it a 427 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.759 hash. You can remember. There are some things that really Bud Graham Barrett, 428 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:40.000 this is good to know a few. What are some of the others. 429 00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.839 I'm not telling you have to listen to all five hundred episodes. Well 430 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.599 I have. I appreciate that. I just don't remember them. I feel 431 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:48.720 sorry for you. Who made you do that? Now? Me? I 432 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:52.359 did it on my own. Like when he was in prison, they didn't 433 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.880 play like Guns and Rosens to full Ball and they played our show. Nice 434 00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.759 guys made two thousand plus podcasts. He does not recommending through the whole back 435 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:04.400 catalog, but he does it himself anyway. Oh, it's its own kind 436 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.640 of OCD. And so that's those are those are prison bars I see in 437 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.039 the background there absolutely okay, And I got interrupt for one moment for this 438 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:18.039 very important message. You know, Amazon Aws is a great home for your 439 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.720 dot net applications. Whether you're looking to run your apps as serverless functions, 440 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:29.599 have them running containers, or you require the complete flexibility of virtualized hardware, 441 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.400 you can do it all on Aws. Dot Net toolkits and templates guide you 442 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.559 through Bill and deployment, or you can use your favorite infrastructure as code and 443 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:45.519 CICD tools including Azure DevOps, GitHub Actions and git labs, CICD loving Visual 444 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.920 Studio vs Code or Rider. There's an AWS toolkit for each of them. 445 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:55.160 Want to use familiar Microsoft Sequel server databases, you can with the Amazon Relational 446 00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:00.319 Database service, which provides fully managed Sequel server databases, then offer auto manic 447 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.359 scaling failover in snapshots. Once your dot net application is deployed, it can 448 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:10.200 use any of the over two hundred AWS services to extend its functionality. Interested 449 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:15.680 in AI, IoT, machine learning, video processing, or transcription, your 450 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:21.119 dot Net on AWS application can do at all. To learn more, go 451 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:29.960 to AWS dot Amazon dot Com, slash net and we're back. It's dot 452 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.119 net Rocks. I'm Richur Campbell. That's call Franklin, Yo. Talking to 453 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.960 our fellow podcaster Grant Barrett, who's also a lexographer. And I didn't really 454 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:43.000 think that lexographers were that much fun. It's lexicographer, a lexicographer. Yeah, 455 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:49.359 well you're you're okay with with US languages? Yeah, you're in good 456 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.720 company though. The very first radio interview I ever did was with an Australian 457 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.960 station promoting my first book, and the guy called me a lexiographer the whole 458 00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.079 time and igrapher. Yeah, when you're doing a live radio interview, you 459 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.039 just don't correct people. It's like correcting your father at the dinner table. 460 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.039 You just don't do it. All right, So we're not going to learn 461 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.480 the other pet peeves unless you listen to a way with words. But certainly 462 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.920 this sort of inflection point, as you call it, is really interesting, 463 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:22.839 especially for programmers because this, you know, for years, other people have 464 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:28.079 been looking at us as programmers, as people that are replacing their jobs. 465 00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:34.559 Right, we automate. That's our job to write automation software to make people's 466 00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.400 who do those jobs either less brain dependent, you know, push the button, 467 00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:43.160 or eliminate them all together. I mean that's the perception. I'm not 468 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:49.160 saying it's true. I would say that software has increased the number of available 469 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:53.960 jobs and change those jobs from sort of menial tasks to things that have meaning. 470 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.039 But they're new jobs and on people to retrain. And if you don't 471 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.440 want to retrain, that's on them. But now the shoes on the other 472 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:05.720 foot. Now programmers are like, oh my god, chat GPT, you 473 00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:07.159 can tell it to write a program that does acts and it will just spit 474 00:34:07.199 --> 00:34:12.880 it out. Might not be right, but I've actually used it, and 475 00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.639 you know, how do how do I do that little thing again? And 476 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.920 I asked it and for the most part it works, but sometimes it doesn't. 477 00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:22.199 Like I totally do that because I'm the worst. The most program I 478 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.920 know is a little bit of Pearl script doing a little bit of a little 479 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.800 bit of Python, and mainly I just like, yeah, but you ran 480 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.320 an Exchange struggle of all these crap scripts that I do my little work with, 481 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.599 but you ran Exchange, and this is where you and Richard have common 482 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.880 but we both know pain. Oh god, I did pain. But also 483 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:45.360 I got to work with I actually loved like things like Skip or Cisco servers, 484 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:51.440 you know, blocking blocking everything coming in with us, the original iOS. 485 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.000 It was just nice. It was just nice just to see all that 486 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:59.079 stuff bounced back and never enter your network. Just watch those logs and you're 487 00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:01.840 like, they did it. I did it. All that intrusion not showing 488 00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:07.599 up into my networks weak. It is interesting that programmers now are feeling that 489 00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:14.280 existential dread of you know, Chat GPT kind of taking their jobs. You 490 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.639 know, you know, it's not just an inflection point, it's I want 491 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:22.039 to emphasize that point about it being a bridge. I've had the good fortune 492 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.639 to be on a lot of different bridge points in history. For example, 493 00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:32.000 when I worked in newspapers, I bridged the print paste up era where you 494 00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.880 actually paste it up the paper and shot it with a camera. But that's 495 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:40.079 how you went to press to the digital era, where you did it all 496 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:44.960 on a you know, a Mac see with a floppy test and PageMaker. 497 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.480 And I remember going to the press and there was a guy working in the 498 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:53.079 press room who was very disgruntled that I was taking his job because we were 499 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.559 doing it on a Mac and we weren't doing it the old fashioned way. 500 00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:00.840 Were used a line of type machine to output the ages. There was this 501 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:06.639 giant thing that involved chemicals and this weird custom keyboard, and he was very 502 00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:08.719 angry about it that his job was gone. You know, there's all of 503 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:14.880 these technological innovations. Somebody's going to do it shifted, but if they can't 504 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.400 keep up, it's on them. That's how I feel. Yeah, I 505 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:20.679 mean, I want to have some compassion for Yeah, you're going to need 506 00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:23.360 to be retrained. Yeah, but I also believe in the growth model here. 507 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.599 When we brought the web into travel, we eliminated a lot of travel 508 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.400 agents, but we actually grew the overall travel travel business so much there's many 509 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.440 more jobs than the ones that were eliminated. I just don't think that getting 510 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:40.800 chatchyp Hall to find some code for you to use is that different from you 511 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.320 googling it or stackle, stack overflow. It's the same gig. It's just 512 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.599 like now you're doing any different context, and I think it are I think 513 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.440 it shifts the low end of the business. It shifts the entry level business, 514 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.880 and maybe that's the larger problem those It shifts an entry point for the 515 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.360 beginning programmer. How to I enter as a brand new programmer? How do 516 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:07.760 I get my name recognition out there on the different freelance marketplaces. How do 517 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:10.960 I start, and as in a small country, to make a few bocks. 518 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.719 If GPT is going to do this for everyone, you know, how 519 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:19.239 do I make a little bit of extra money on the side. I don't 520 00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:21.920 know. There are some people who are going to be cut out and retraining 521 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.239 isn't going to solve it for them. Well, and folks have talked about 522 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:30.599 you'll use chap EGPT and your ability to craft requests of that engine. It 523 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.719 turns out to be your actual skill, and in the end you have to 524 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:37.400 decide whether or not what they gave you is good or not. Back in 525 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.400 the early days of programming, I sort of glibly said, you know, 526 00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.360 maybe the only job left in the world someday will be programmers. Amber Scott 527 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:51.559 Stanfield said, yeah, and battery makers. Programmers and battery makers. That's 528 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:52.880 those of you, the only jobs left. Now I'm thinking, you know, 529 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:58.880 proofreaders might be the only job left someday in the literary world. Oh 530 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.440 dude, they're being cut in the newspaper business, so I wouldn't even publishing 531 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.239 business. I wouldn't even count on that. Really. Oh yeah, yeah, 532 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.039 it's it's they're one of the first jobs to be cut in publishing. 533 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:12.480 Yeah. Well it shows, um, it does, it really does. 534 00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.039 I can't tell you how many errors I see. And my wife, Kelly, 535 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:21.519 Kelly, my wife is very um attentive when it comes to details, 536 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.239 right, and so she can spot, she says. She also says she 537 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:29.280 should be a continuity person on a movie set. M H, same thing, 538 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.239 details details. Your coffee cup is in your left hand, that last 539 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:35.719 shot. You moved it to your right hand, putting your arms up not 540 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.840 down. Yeah. Right. But I wonder if we're on a I wonder 541 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:43.559 if we are, have been, and are now accelerating down a path of 542 00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:50.719 like a version of yellow journalism, this idea of the quality eventually the you 543 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:55.039 know, yellow journalism was that the time when folks were sensationalizing news back in 544 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.920 the in the broadsheet era, and eventually people stopped reading it because it was 545 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.000 garbage and the industry had to change. And I wonder if we're not on 546 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.480 that exact path where it's like, hey, quality matters, and eventually people 547 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:13.079 will ignore it because it's garbage. Well, I've sat in on a lot 548 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:16.079 of the future of news panels. There's nothing news people love to talk about 549 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:21.159 more than the future of their business. And this is a this has been 550 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:22.840 a topic for as long as I've been involved in the news business, which 551 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:30.039 is like thirty years exactly this question. And generally the consensus is, and 552 00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:35.519 it has always been, there's not enough division between opinion and news, and 553 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.960 there never will be because there's too much money and opinion and the public doesn't 554 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:43.079 know how to separate the two either. When you put opinion at the top 555 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.519 of the page or on the chiron at the bottom of the screen, people 556 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.719 still think it's news. But we're talking about an inflection point. This may 557 00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.679 be part of that inflection point is to say that that we do need to 558 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:59.119 discriminate on these things. It has happened before. I cite the yellow journalism 559 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.800 case as a what are the few cases where it did happen. Yeah, 560 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:06.159 but what I'm saying. What I'm saying is in the last thirty years of 561 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:08.920 all we've seen is the rise of the twenty four hour news channel, which 562 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:15.320 is what eighty percent opinion and twenty percent hard news, eighty percent advertising, 563 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:21.119 ten percent opinion and ten percent news. Yeah, well, and lots of 564 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.760 repeating over and over and over again. It's expensive. What do you think 565 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:30.119 of Twitter? Well, God help me. Yeah, we kind of feeling 566 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:34.000 that dread too. I mean, it was such a great language research tool 567 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.360 until these new fees. I guess they're not underway quite yet, but these 568 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:43.559 new fees are now threatening a great language research tool. Yeah, where the 569 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:52.039 geocoding on tweets meant that you could actually do really sophisticated time based, region 570 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:58.760 based database searches. And say this is a term is more common here and 571 00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.039 less common there um and has been over the last ten years or however long 572 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:08.000 Twitter has been a thirteen years? How long his Twitter fifteen maybe fifteen m 573 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:14.480 And so now we have longitudinal data and it's fantastic for that, And now 574 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:16.599 that's going to be just thrown in the crapper. Yeah, I'm not. 575 00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:20.960 I mean, I'm not convinced. I don't think Twitter is all that important 576 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.320 to Elon. Actually, I think he's mostly just trying to get out of 577 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.039 the situation he's in, Like, I wonder if we're not going to get 578 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:29.400 back to something, but he blew up the revenue model, so he's just 579 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:32.679 trying to scrounge around for revenue. Dingdong. Yeah, I agree, what 580 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:37.639 a terrible, terrible waste of time. Yes, it was a good product. 581 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.480 Maybe it'll get back there. I don't Yeah, maybe you're right, 582 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:43.880 Maybe it we'll get back there, because ultimately it doesn't bat at the same 583 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.760 level as getting people to Mars are inventing the electric car, Like, why 584 00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:50.360 are you wasting time out? Yes, I just wish he would spend more 585 00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:52.400 time with his family. Yeah, yeah, that that dude needs a friend. 586 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.920 Like in a worse way. I'm just saying, like out of the 587 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:59.800 public eye, he just he needs attention, and he's got all those people 588 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.239 who could get him all the attention he ever wanted. Yeah, I think 589 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.480 he went off the rails when Grimes left. Like the Elon that was kind 590 00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:09.079 of fun. You're the guy who said let's fly my sports car into space 591 00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:13.480 like that. Yeah, that was a great elon. And that's when he 592 00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:15.800 had he had a significant other around him. That was, you know, 593 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:20.039 at least something you reflect against this and she's been gone. He's just gotten 594 00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:22.440 progressively crazier. Yeah. I don't I don't know enough about his personal life. 595 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.199 I just I just know how you know. I'm just trying to focused 596 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:30.360 on the utility of the tool rather than the nature of the man. And 597 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:35.639 the utility of the tool is is decline, especially for a guy like you, 598 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.840 like he were saying, a great research tool for language usage. It 599 00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:43.559 really is. Look at the work by Jack Grieve if you just type in 600 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:46.719 Jack Grieves g R I e vee just type in Jack Grieve linguist. He's 601 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:54.639 written some phenomenal papers using Twitter and showing African American English online in British English 602 00:42:54.639 --> 00:43:00.920 and just different ways you can track regionality using Twitter. It's brilliant stuff, 603 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:06.639 just brilliant stuff. Well, and that only works if Twitter is serving as 604 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:12.079 that sort of Piazza model where you have a significant portion of the population's routinely 605 00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:21.280 communicating, right, a broad spectrum across all ethnic backgrounds and economic backgrounds and 606 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.559 political backgrounds. Right. But if it's going to shift very far right, 607 00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:28.519 we're going to lose that. Are there any other tools out there that can 608 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.400 that have potential in your mind to be used in the same way someday? 609 00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:36.239 No, No, no, nothing else geocodes like that. It's not online. 610 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:38.039 As far as I know, I've not thought of Twitter as all that 611 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.679 special until I hear what you do with Yeah, I'm like, Okay, 612 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.360 it's because it's not the product of Twitter is. It's a byproduct, but 613 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.199 it's an important byproduct. Yeah, that's right. That A lot of the 614 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:53.719 work that we do is linguist and mexicographers is based on byproduct. For example, 615 00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:00.079 I learned years ago to use Google alerts to track new words because writers, 616 00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:05.079 authors, journalists will often tag words that are new to the vocabulary with 617 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:10.280 phrases like also known as are known to police as are referred to by referred 618 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:15.719 to by um chemists as. So that I have like three or one hundred 619 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:20.039 or so expressions, and then following those expressions, is a word is a 620 00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:22.880 new word? Yeah? Possibly a new word? Yeah. I was gonna 621 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:24.159 say, how do you how do you filter for new words? Yeah, 622 00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:28.800 but no, it's it's when people are trying to relate that contact for the 623 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.880 relation phrases, yeah, and then they'll sometimes define them right, and so 624 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:37.000 you know, it's not very successful. I mean, I could probably automate 625 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:40.159 that if I wanted to hire somebody, But you know, for a while 626 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:44.079 there, I was just reading those alerts and marking down the words that were 627 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.719 new to me also, and it was pretty successful. I found thousands and 628 00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:51.480 thousands of words that way. Yeah. I think you also used Google books 629 00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.159 right to find the in other tools that you have at your disposal, to 630 00:44:55.239 --> 00:45:00.480 find the first time word has been scene or a phrase has been seen in 631 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:04.840 print. Yeah, you know, it's always like, as far as we 632 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.440 know, you always have to add that shad that caveat as far as we 633 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:09.599 know. Yep. These days, I more often use archive dot org. 634 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:15.119 Yeah, because they have done they have a grant great new search engine by 635 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:20.039 the way that it allows date range searches. And although the OCR is kind 636 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.880 of iffy because it uses I think a modified version of tess iact, which 637 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:28.400 is way better than it used to be, but it's still not perfect and 638 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:31.920 it often depends upon script recognition, which isn't that great, so sometimes it 639 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:37.320 will misrecognize, for example, of Cirillac as another language. But it's pretty 640 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:42.159 good. I just found in an old um website that I used to run 641 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:45.639 and started in nineteen ninety four, Carling Carey's VB homepage. It's where I 642 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.440 first ran across you back in the day. Yeah, but what I'm talking 643 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.760 about is the books portion of archive dot org, and that's where the gold 644 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:57.360 is. The wet portion, the books portion of Archive, That's where the 645 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.239 gold is. Yeah. If you're going to donate money on Internet Resource stone 646 00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:02.760 it to archive dot org. Yeah, I do. I give. It's 647 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:05.840 not a lot, but I give them like twenty five a month. Wow. 648 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.679 That's nice because I make such a huge use of this side. And 649 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:12.920 then there's a few software projects like since I use OCR and I PDF pretty 650 00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:15.920 regularly, so sometimes I'll download something that I don't think was OCR very well 651 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:21.400 there, and then I'll run OCR my PDF on it, which is great 652 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:25.800 script just wonderful. It's got tests iact on the back end. It's Python 653 00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:30.639 based. You throw a PDF at it, tell it which languages the it 654 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:35.960 should OCR with, and it just wonderful things like de skewing and some a 655 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:42.400 little bit of contrast correction. Just fantastic, Just kind of a nice front 656 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.119 end for tests direct to handle some of the real common cases. So it 657 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:51.239 converts some PDF to PDF. Just fantastic, beautiful. Yeah. Why do 658 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:52.519 new words emerge? I mean, I can think of a few reasons, 659 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:55.440 but I like to hear your version of that. Well, in your business. 660 00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:58.639 You know why they emerge? In the tech business, You get a 661 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.239 new product. It doesn't is a new problem, and that new problem has 662 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:06.320 a name, right, It's often a silly name like zing boing or something. 663 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.760 Well, what I'm talking about For example, if we oh, speaking 664 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.519 of Elon Musk, what did he create upstairs in the sky? He created 665 00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:20.760 mum starlink starlink? What is starlink? When you see all those satellites together, 666 00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:23.400 it's a mega constellation. Right, So that's a new word because he 667 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:29.360 created something that didn't exist before a mega constellation, and so you're you're creating 668 00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.599 new terms to describe new things. Yeah, often it is, and it's 669 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.559 easier with nouns, and it's easier when you're not creating new senses for verbs, 670 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.119 those are much harder, or new senses for words, those are much 671 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:46.320 harder to come across and to notice. But but generally, it's about the 672 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:52.119 advancement of ideas, culture, people. It's about things changing, and that's 673 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.400 when the language has to change too. I learned so many great terms from 674 00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:59.880 listening to yours, like your show, like voluntold is a great one, 675 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.880 has been volun told. Anybody who's worked in the military knows that way. 676 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:08.480 That's a great word and it doesn't require explanation. You know. So many 677 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:15.760 of our three letter acronyms TLAs are just so baffling to people who don't who 678 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:21.559 aren't in the business, that we have to constantly stop and define what what 679 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:23.480 we're talking about. Yeah, we put a show in the can this week 680 00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:29.000 that you'll hear in a couple weeks. Martha and I talked with a caller 681 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.440 who was telling us about working with Aussie's people from Australia, and he was 682 00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:38.880 talking about how mysterious their language was at first. And so sometimes the language 683 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:45.360 changes just because you have this natural friction with other groups of people, so 684 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.039 you you pick up how they speak, you know, and it becomes part 685 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:57.840 of your speech. So language change is about osmosis, you know, growth 686 00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:01.639 between different groups of people having to accommodate each other. Accommodation is a real 687 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:07.880 big part of new language, an adoption of other people's speech or adoption of 688 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:12.920 their ways of living. So, for example, on the border between Brazil 689 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:16.480 and all the Spanish speaking countries around it, there are varieties of language no 690 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:22.039 as Portugnol, which is a mix of Portuguese and Spanish, but they're different 691 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:28.639 depending on which border you're at. They're each one of them has kind of 692 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.760 created a new crayle, you know, just like the varieties of Spanglish and 693 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:37.280 spoken along the Mexico US border are a little different. So Miami Spanglish is 694 00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:45.320 different from Texas Spanglish. Yeah, just because the English brushing up different kinds 695 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.599 of Spanish. They've just they're varied when you're banging against different cultures. Like 696 00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.559 if you think about the northern countries in the northern side of Brazil, like 697 00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:57.880 Surinam and Guyana. They've got some strong French influences too, exactly. Yeah, 698 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.760 it's the same reason that the cabe Quaff wrench is different from say, 699 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:06.400 uh, I don't know Martinique French, and they're going to Caribbean for sure. 700 00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:08.880 The other thing I wanted to say is like in the tech world, 701 00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:15.559 so the jargon of say, people who work in cloud services versus people who 702 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:20.840 do front frontline support. They're both in tech, but they're different flavors of 703 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:22.760 tech, so they're going to have some overlap, but they're still gonna have 704 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.800 different lingo. They might have different lingo for the same stuff. You know, 705 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:29.880 how they talk about customers for example, or how they talk about service 706 00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:34.719 calls. Yeah. Yeah, I'm still not convinced that what's happening with the 707 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.199 large language models is going well enough that it's going to continue. We may 708 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:43.400 we may be thrown into a winter like where I think the whole Live with 709 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:47.639 byng was a pr play. I think that the most important part of the 710 00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:51.880 case, that what stimulated all this was one hundred million users signing up for 711 00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:54.400 chat GBT. You think it's a money grab, Yeah, well, I 712 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.760 think I always think it's a money grab. I think it's a pr play. 713 00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.079 I think byng was in the single digits of use as a search engine, 714 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:06.679 and then chat gpt comes along and we now have evidence, you know, 715 00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:10.159 they've made posts of things talking about they had been tinkering with a language 716 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:15.320 model attached to a search engine for a couple of years. They weren't happy 717 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:17.719 with it. It wasn't good enough. And then chat gpt comes out, 718 00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:22.159 signs up one hundred million users in two months. They're like, that's more 719 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.320 people that are using bing. Let's put it out there. And then Google 720 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:29.000 freaks out and takes the bait. I wonder how long it's going to be 721 00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:36.679 before Amazon Alexa has that sort of contextual memory that it does not really currently 722 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.039 have. Now, I don't know. Alexa has turned out to be a 723 00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:44.599 real money sync for Amazon. It's something like ten billion dollars put into it, 724 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:46.800 and it looks like a failing portion of their business. Well all of 725 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.920 those voice bots all the same time. I mean, it's coming into twenty 726 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.199 twenty three where we have a threat of an economic downturn. I don't know 727 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.119 we actually have a we have a threat of one. It's a very stylish 728 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:02.440 or tech companies to lay people off and so forth. They're clearly scrutinizing their 729 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:07.199 businesses and wanting and signally they're going to cut things that aren't working. And 730 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:14.360 both Google Home and their voice device and Amazon Alexa both were supposed to make 731 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.400 money and didn't to the tune of billions, and so they're saying they make 732 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:21.679 it noisy. I don't know if they've actually done anything, but they've made 733 00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.360 noises about winding it down. Yeah, exactly what I've been reading, because 734 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:29.800 from my perspective as somebody who hosts a radio show and podcasts, I'm always 735 00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:35.480 interested in how many listeners can tune into my show on those devices. And 736 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.360 it's incredibly hard to make it happen, Yeah, because they're Unfortunately. My 737 00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:43.880 show is called Away with Words, and there are a zillion songs, and 738 00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:50.159 other podcasts either have episodes or portions of their programming called Away with Words. 739 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.159 Yeah, and the wrong thing comes Dude, we have a podcast it starts 740 00:52:53.159 --> 00:53:00.519 with a period. Oh God. It's really hard that anyway, And it's 741 00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:05.639 surprised a number of people create new shows constantly called Away with Words without checking 742 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.159 to see if there's another show already called that. People are just do not 743 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:12.480 think yeah, yeah, it's not good for them either. I mean, 744 00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:15.199 so no, I find it. You have to be very explicit with the 745 00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:19.960 one who starts today. You have to say, play the latest episode of 746 00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:23.159 the podcast Away with Words with Grant Barrett and Martha Parnett, and then it 747 00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:27.840 will But yeah, people don't do No, they don't do that because speech 748 00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:30.719 is supposed to be easy. I would say it's supposed to be efficient. 749 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:34.800 I'm supposed to be able to say very little and you know, and you 750 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.559 or should understand what I'm talking about. How far do you think we are 751 00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:43.519 from the way it works in movies or Star Trek to speaking to the computer 752 00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:45.920 and having it all be understood. I think we can't even see our way 753 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:52.960 there right now because we don't have real understanding coming from the machine of intent 754 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:55.679 or any of those things. I think it's almost like we're in the same 755 00:53:55.719 --> 00:54:00.960 space that Tassel is with the autopilot. You've made something that feels like it 756 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:05.079 should exist. It has science fiction context, so people want to believe exists, 757 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:08.559 and so you ignore how very broken it actually is. Right, That's 758 00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:13.440 exactly you put it into. So the words that I was trying to say, 759 00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:15.920 that's exactly how I feel about it, And I wonder if it won't 760 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:20.679 be thrown into a winter because it deserves to me. I like that ex 761 00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:23.400 question too. Thrown into a winter where it just everything chills for a while. 762 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.880 Yeah, put it on ice. It's kind of like what happened with 763 00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:30.960 electric cars. Electric cars were big at the beginning of the automoile ears automobile 764 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.559 era, and how long did they lay in the deepres? Yeah, for 765 00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:37.280 decades and then they you know, a little a little poke up in the 766 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.880 eighties, in the seventies when with the oil crisis, and then they went 767 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.800 away again, and a little poke up in the nineties, and then it 768 00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.679 went away again. People in the crazy billionaire showed up. People gonna yell 769 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:51.079 at me for saying lay instead of lie. Just so you know, here 770 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:57.320 you go. But I grant you know, it's contextual to us because of 771 00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:01.199 the artificial intelligence winters, right raise. Artificial intelligence first comes up the fifties 772 00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:06.760 with Martin Minsky working for the military. They get some stuff to work, 773 00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:10.599 but their promises are way out of scope and so winter. Then it reappears 774 00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:15.639 as the expert systems in the seventies and they build these thirty thousand dollar computers 775 00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:20.639 and sold several thousand of them. But that's about it. Winter then in 776 00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:22.840 the nineties with the decision tree systems and deep Blue and so forth, and 777 00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:28.519 playing chess, and it can't get further than that winter. And then it 778 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.599 comes up again in the twenty eleven's with Jeffrey Hinton's model and an image net 779 00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:36.639 and vision recognition systems, and that's what we're the tail into this right now. 780 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:39.679 Hinton's now saying, here comes another winter. But you know the big 781 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.280 change now is we have the clouds. So with this huge amount of compute 782 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:49.159 hanging around and companies highly motivated to find work for their cloud, clouds are 783 00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.639 full arranging the kicker to all this open AI stuff and jatchebetween all these things 784 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:58.360 all consume cloud. I have a story for you, Grant. Do you 785 00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:04.719 remember a program back when we were all young called Eliza. Yes, I 786 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:07.840 played with Eliza. I had the MAC version. Yeah, yeah, the 787 00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:13.320 Rogerian psychotherapist. You basically would ask it a question and it would answer with 788 00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:20.360 a question that contained parts or was triggered by your question. Yes. Yeah, 789 00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:22.480 you can still find it online. Yeah, I'll include a link to 790 00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:27.159 an online one, so you would say a sentence that included my brother, 791 00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:30.719 right, and so picked up on those keywords and said, tell me more 792 00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:34.519 about your family. And my first experience of this was, oh, my 793 00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.760 god, it's brilliant. It's a genius. But here's the thing. The 794 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:43.960 guy who wrote that originally wrote it as a goof against the term artificial intelligence 795 00:56:43.960 --> 00:56:47.719 to prove that it wasn't intelligent. It was simply doing a lookup of keywords 796 00:56:47.800 --> 00:56:54.239 and responding with responses appropriate for those keywords. And everybody, kind of including 797 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:59.119 me as a kid, I was blown away by this, and I actually 798 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:02.360 rewrote it in visual Basic a long time ago, and I think I think 799 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.840 I might have even done an online version of it. But but I was 800 00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:08.519 just fascinated by it. You know, from a consumer standpoint, it looked 801 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:13.079 like magic to me. Yeah, people want to believe these things exist, 802 00:57:13.239 --> 00:57:22.880 right between peridolia and anthropomorphization, Like we're looking for faces and we cast humanity 803 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:25.360 on things that aren't you. I'm not the first to say this, but 804 00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:30.440 we are terribly bad at pattern matching, and we just think we're fantastic. 805 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:37.119 Yeah right, the pattern we matches. I'm a genius, but I am, 806 00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:39.400 Yeah, but in your case, we're making an exception. But no, 807 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:43.880 I'm not. I always say that like I'm somewhere in the middle, 808 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:46.840 just a little bit above average. So the well beg Yeah, and and 809 00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:51.559 the other thing we know about humans is when they don't understand something or there's 810 00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:54.639 ambiguity, we make stuff up. Yeah, and we're scared and we're scared. 811 00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:59.000 Yeah, yeah, we make stuff up and it always blames someone but 812 00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:02.320 us. Right, So go read a book or a bunch of books. 813 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:06.800 Yeah, let me ask you guys a question while I have here. What 814 00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:07.960 do you what are you working on? What do you what do you do 815 00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:12.000 besides this podcast? Well I could tell you if well, first of all, 816 00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:15.800 Richard's working on a book about the history of dot net. Okay, 817 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.159 Microsoft's you probably know what dot net is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 818 00:58:19.239 --> 00:58:22.920 Well I only have the like open source version of it installed. But yeah, 819 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:25.360 right, so it goes back to being a Windows only product back in 820 00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:31.199 the two thousands and went all the way through tablets and phones and open source. 821 00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:35.800 And he can tell you more about that. But I'm basically, um 822 00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:42.920 a web developer, and I've got a couple of YouTube videos series one on 823 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:49.280 Blazer, which is there the state of the art web UI technology, and 824 00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:54.239 another one on Maui, which is their mobile technology. So i'm my job 825 00:58:54.400 --> 00:59:00.000 is essentially to come up with good examples of how to use this stuff every 826 00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:01.760 week, do some research, write some code, and then do a video 827 00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:06.360 about it. So i'm this is my wheelhouse. I love it. Oh 828 00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:09.119 that's fantastic. I'm working on a book too. It's on the on the 829 00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:15.320 words suck, s u c K, suck these there a whole book there. 830 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.000 Yeah. Yeah, well it'll be a short one thirty thousand words, 831 00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:21.159 but yeah, a mirror and it will be on it'll be like on the 832 00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:22.920 figurative uses of it, like you suck or that sucks. No, no, 833 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:28.039 we have a we have a version of it. That's um a noun. 834 00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:30.360 Right, So we went the big suck, right, Well, we 835 00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:35.079 turned down the suck and we turn up the awesome in our production, in 836 00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:37.320 our production that's yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, we have 837 00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:39.800 the suck now. Yeah, I will be addressing that now, Yes, 838 00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:45.960 turn it down. I appreciate that. Grant. It's been an absolute pleasure 839 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:50.480 to talk to you and keep in touch, will you Yeah, absolutely, 840 00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:52.000 thanks for having me on. This was a great conversation. It's nice to 841 00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:57.400 flex the tech brain a little bit. Yeah, and again, you know, 842 00:59:57.559 --> 01:00:00.599 it was a really good intersection of all these things and at the right 843 01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:02.719 time, I think. So thanks again and we'll see you on the way 844 01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:06.559 with words. All right, Thank you, take happy well you guys. 845 01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:08.400 All right, byebye. We'll talk to you, dear listener next time on 846 01:00:08.599 --> 01:00:34.719 dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and 847 01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:39.199 produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility 848 01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:45.440 located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online 849 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:51.559 at pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt n et r ocks dot 850 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:55.960 com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to 851 01:00:57.000 --> 01:01:00.679 the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 852 01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:05.159 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us 853 01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:08.599 in business. Now go write some code. See you next time. You 854 01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:20.920 got a check. Mile Band