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Then the the the the the the
the the the the do don't they do?

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Then the the the the the the
the the the don the the the

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the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the All

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right, what's up, y'all?
Shout out to the mafia don himself A

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J. Barker sitting in that John
Gottie chair making the calls, deciding who

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lives and who dies. Clowning right. So if you guys remember in the

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last live stream, we had somebody
call in. I didn't know who was

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calling in. It was just name. It was just voices to me,

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just voices in my head. And
it turns out it's our buddy, A

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J. Barker, who is Tim
Gordon's buddy who when I looked him up,

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it turns out has a book on
Aquinas. Correct, you've got something

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recent that's published on Aquinas. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like it's not

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a scholarly work of him, but
it's more like, uh, inspired by

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studies of Thomas. Here's my free
flowing you know, takes on these things.

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So it's there's no one, there's
no like, you know, inquisitor

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telling me what's what's you know?
Approved as Thomas and what's not but but

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drawing from the sort of inspiration of
his work, I lay out topics as

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best I can. Gotcha cool?
Yeah, so you called in and then

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the latter part of that live stream
and you got some some good comments and

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questions. We had a good exchange, and so you suggest that we have

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a more formal setting where you actually
have your Mafia don chair in the background

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there to ca all the shots.
And I said, yeah, we can

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do that. So I did have
a lot going on today, but we

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were able to squeeze it in.
So AJ, before we get started on

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our topics, why don't you tell
us whatever you're comfortable telling us about yourself

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and who you are and how you
got to be buddies with the infamous Tim

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Gordon. Yeah, I have a
little bit about me. I'm I mean,

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I'm a Catholic. I live up
here in Minnesota. I first networked

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up with Tim years ago. I'd
actually just reached out to him and asked

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if you wanted to do a conversation
on natural virtues. I was a football

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player, a wide receiver for the
Minnesota Gophers. Now eleven twelve years ago,

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I was a wide receiver there and
so he was kind of one of

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the only Catholics I would talk about
sports, and so I asked him,

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you know what, would you want
to do a conversation sometime about that.

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So that was maybe twenty eighteen,
twenty seventeen, eight, maybe twenty nineteen.

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It was a while ago now,
And so we did that, and

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then a couple of years went by, and then we started talking again more

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regularly, and uh so that's kind
of the occasion for getting into the fold

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with him. And now, I
mean, I consider I'm a good friend,

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go on to Sea Mask podcasts semi
regularly, going to be on there

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with him tomorrow morning. And yeah, I've been invited, and it happens

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too early. So I'm not a
responsible I'm not a responsible adult who wakes

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up at an appropriate time. I'm
still like a teenager that stays up till

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two or three in the morning.
But I would like to eventually be on

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there. But yeah, well we
have to do him so early because of

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the great Will Noland is over in
in you know, Brita, Britannia,

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and so yeah, and I've talked
to He's a cool guy. We've had

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some uh friendly exchanges. He puts
out some good stuff. All right,

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Well cool, I'm glad you you
were willing to reach out and chat.

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So as AJ suggested, we would, we would kind of cover some of

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the topics that we hit on last
time, like tomis, epistemology, transient

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arguments for God absolutely to my simplicity, the energies, theophanies. I don't

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remember what other topics, but I'm
happy to go wherever, wherever you want

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to go. I have to give
a little bit of a caveat. I've

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got another podcaster in a little while, so I have to get ready ready

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for that. But I mean we
have we have time. I'm not trying

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to rush it. But I've also
got like a super headache today, So

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I apologize if i'm a little if
I'm not as sharp as normal, but

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I'll strive to be as on point
as possible. But what topic would you

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like to start with? Well,
I think why don't we we start maybe

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first? I think kind of in
our discussions behind the scenes, would would

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seem to have boiled down to that
the transcendental argument. I know at one

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point we got to the impastor you
know, what's what is the justification for

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your whole system. And at that
point I just kind of I was like,

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well, it's God. It can
only be God. God can be

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the only justification. He's the starting
point. He's not something you reason to

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by conclusion. It struck me that
that really seemed to really align with what

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russ Mannion was saying in his paper
on the contingency of Knowledge. So maybe

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one question i'd put your way is, I know you've kind of mentioned that

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that you've observed that classical Tomism does
not accept the transcendental argument, and I'll

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take your word for that, but
I guess partly I'm wondering is if we

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accept the transcendental argument, which is
God has to be the starting point for

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any discourse, which we do.
To me, that's Saint Paul saying,

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you know, God in whom we
live and move and have our being.

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And I've mentioned briefly to you how
there's Thomas scholars who have developed the idea

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of premotion that in every single instance
God has to be the one who gives

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reality to our being. It would
seem to me that that those things would

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at least somewhat line up, not
as a logical conclusion of tumism, but

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as the starting point. So I
guess I'd love to hear first any you

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know take or response that you have. Yeah. I think the point though,

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is that while it's true that in
the Thomas system, metaphysically speaking,

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God would be the ground of these
things, and he would be the necessary

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being, the primary being, you
know, all of those terms would be

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true, but God would not be
a first principle, so he wouldn't be

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any kind of epistemic starting point in
tumism. You would have to start with

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your natural principles, natural science as
it used to be called ancient medieval world,

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so you'd have to learn first principles, and then after doing first principles,

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and after doing natural theology in the
order of epistemology or the order of

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logic, you could say, then
God would come down the road. So

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you're correct that metaphysically speaking, yes, God is sort of the ultimate being

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in the system. He's there in
a sense, maybe even to ground out

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everything. But that wouldn't be the
case in Tomistic epistemology. That would be

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a metaphysical conclusion based on the starting
points of first principles. So first principles

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would be things like what Aristotle talks
about I think in metaphysics, I think

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maybe book four, I'm going from
memory. I haven't looked at along metaphysics.

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But he talks about like you know, the law of non contradiction,

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law of excluded middle, other basic
principles, parapatetic axiom for example. These

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would be kind of starting points for
knowledge claims in Aristotle and in by extension

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in Aquinas. And so the reason
that there are for example, thomass who

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have been interested in transcendental arguments,
and there have been Thomas who have made

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transcendental arguments, there's not any Tomas
that will or ever could make a transcendental

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argument for God's existence because the transcendent
argument for God is it different. It's

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a type of transcendent argument. But
just like I'm not a Kantian because I

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use a transcendental argument and Kant use
transcendent arguments, right, it's it's the

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same principle here that Kant didn't make
a transcenent argument for God. He just

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utilized transcendent argumentation in his idealism.
So you could argue also that Plato used

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types of transcendental arguments as some of
the dialogues, but that doesn't make Plato

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an adherent of the transcendent argument for
God's existence. So it's a unique,

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different argument from just any kind of
transcendent argument. So there might be some

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parallels and commonalities. But for example, if you look at say some of

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countries intelas right in this this is
Thomas as apologetic as you know. But

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for the sake of the audience,
this is Thomas's apologetic work for how would

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we go about arguing outside of the
church. Right, So maybe in the

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church we would read the Syma Theologica
and that would be for theology's sake,

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but what about apologetics against those who
challenge Christianity or Theism in general. So

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Thomas wrote this book as it's a
series as well on his apologetic and the

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work really I think sets out just
even if you read volume one, it

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really sets out the stuff I'm talking
about. For example, we have within

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the first seven rate chapters, we
have the affirmation of parapatetic axiom, the

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basic empiricist approach that Aquinas has to
theology. We have the notion of two

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tiered knowledge. So there's natural knowledge
and there's supernatural knowledge. There's nature and

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there's grace. So that's chapter three. So in other words, the reason

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that we couldn't have in a trances
argument for God's existence in Tunism is that

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it would violate the two tiered system
of natural and supernatural knowledge. Yeah,

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okay, I can definitely follow that
distinction between natural and supernatural. I am

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very well versed in the Suma gentes, and my I mean again, my

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take from it is that in this
one be speaking directly to the contragentes,

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but that the countray theologia, that
he is so adamant on the authority of

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scripture that this is the the necessary
sort of linking point to the emphasis on

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divine revelation as a starting point.
And to me, I mean that's that

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is where people say Thomas baptized Aristotle. That's the strong distinguisher is that he

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gives a precedent to that which is
divinely revealed and and constantly refers back to

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that. Right, but divine revelation
again is there's an overlap between natural theology.

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So as you know, there's two
circles that Thomas always draw, and

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then that middle overlapping part is right
where we there's faith is not contrary to

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reason. Reason is the natural faculty
that we have and then faith or revelation

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builds on that. So it's it's
it transcends reasoning. And as Orthodox,

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a lot of these phrases are statements
we could agree with, but where we

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disagree is really the meaning of this
of the phrases of the statement. So

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it's not like I don't believe that
you know there that there's a place for

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human reasoning or something like that.
So but in our system, for example,

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staten ELOI says in the very first
page of Orthodox Dogmatics, as I

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pointed out, we don't believe in
natural theology like in atomistic system. We

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do believe in natural revelation. And
so, in other words, the reference

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point of the medium, whether it's
nature in the sense of sticks, rocks,

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trees, that points to the second
person that God had, because creation

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is the manifestation of his logi or
his thought forms or his ideas. So

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it's a it's a direct personal crystological
move that, for example, Maximus makes

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with the divine ideas to make the
cre that's patterned on it immediately crystological.

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And so whether it's divine revelation or
whether it's the natural order, both of

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those are pointing to the logie.
So the content is the same, the

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medium of the of the reference towards
that content is different. So the Bible

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is obviously different than sticks and rocks
and trees. Sometimes the collab cam.

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So if collab cam drops, I
lost you. Sometimes the collab cam for

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whatever reason, it usually works pretty
good, but every now and then it'll

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pop out. If you just give
it a second, it'll pop back on.

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So so yeah, So what I
was saying is just simply that you

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know, the the the idea that
you could have a trendsidental argument for God

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would violate first principles. And you
can see this, for example in Thomas's

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rejection of the ontological argument. Now, I want to be very clear,

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I'm not making the ontological argument.
I think it's just as problem as the

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classical arguments for God's existence. But
the move that I'm making is similar in

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the epistemic sense that when Thomas rejects
the ontological argument, he says something like,

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you know, faith is required,
so if you could logically prove God's

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existence, you wouldn't need faith.
But the argument that I'm making is even

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more radical than that, and I'm
saying that you couldn't have logic itself without

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the triad. So that's a much
more radical move than even the ontological argument.

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But if you're familiar with Thomas's rejection
of the ontological argument, it would

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be I mean, I would that's
another example of why TAG wouldn't work for

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aquitas, because there are no a
priori arguments for the triad or God's existence.

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Yeah, well, I two things
come to mind. You know,

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Tim Gordon and I have had extensive
conversations about how the Enlightenment deconstructed the idea

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of the sort of seamless continuity between
nature and SuperNature, and so to boil

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that down for you, there are
many people that think that the natural law,

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according to Thomas, is like something
imposed on nature from without, and

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then there's this like spiraling number of
possible premises to the natural law accordingly,

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because it's like reason, you know, imposes itself onto nature, and then

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from this we get the natural law, and it's not really clear what nature

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is what other things are. We've
talked a lot, and this always always

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stuck with me on a deep level. So this might even be going outside

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of Thomas and more in line with
what you're saying. But the notion that

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it is nature itself that informs us. Our reason is merely observing what nature

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has set up, that it itself
is a sort of fount of God.

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And that seems to align a lot
more with what you're saying. And then

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the second piece around the LOGI that
even sticks and these things are a sort

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of manifestation of Christ. And I
just I'm not trying to strong man your

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argument here, but I actually what
I see as similar is when they talk

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about Christ being the second person of
the Blessed Trinity. And I know we're

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gonna have distinctions on that, but
when they well from the lens that I've

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learned it through, when when when
Christ is the second person of the Blessed

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Trinity, the reason that it's appropriate
for him to be the blessed the second

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person of the Blessed Trinity, though
containing all of God in himself, is

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because he is the image and for
us, we're going to see things through

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our senses. So to me,
that actually in a subtle way lines up

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with that observation that all of visible
creation is going to speak to the image

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nature of God, of the second
person of Blessed Trinity, as manifesting God

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to in his in his creation.
So that's true. I mean again,

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I understand that Atomis would affirm that
the natural order points us to God,

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but a Thomas could not and would
not say that the natural order points us

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to Christ because it would be to
violate the two tiered system. Right,

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So again the reason that and I'm
going from memory in it's it's early on

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in the Suma because in book one
he's dealing with apologetic arguments and could we

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say this, can we say that
about how we would know? So he

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starts out with first principles in the
in the Szsuma theological not Szuma contrad gents,

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but he says, so first principles
tell us this is this, That's

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all what I'm talking about here.
And then he says, what about what

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about arguments like the ontological argument?
And he says that it would violate the

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idea that there's a leap of faith
involved. And he doesn't say the phrase

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leap of faith, but he says
that. He says that faith is not

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like first principles. First principles,
this science natural science, and so natural

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science and its conclusions give certitude based
on evidences and piling up the evidences or

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a high degree of warrant and certitude, maybe not absolute certitude, but things

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of faith are not that way,
he argues. He says that things of

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faith are more like there's an element
of unknown and thus an element of leap.

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I'm not saying that Thomas is a
total fideist. He doesn't believe that

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faith is completely irrational, but he
does think that there's if he would say

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that what I'm talking about, I
think violates the distinction between nature and grace,

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violates the distinction between creating and uncreated, or something like that, because

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the two things are pulls apart.
So that's why, for example, the

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only way that you know God in
his system is via created effects, and

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that's just completely contrary to everything that
we as Orthodox think. Now, it's

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not that we don't think created effects
speak to God. They do, but

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we don't. Just inhabit a world
where there's a veil of the created order

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separating us from the divine. The
divine penetrated and entered into the created order.

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And so that's again the incarnation is
an element of disparity here. Human

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epistemology an anthropology is an element of
disparity here between us and the Tomus because

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at every point, whether it's or
epistemology, or whether it's our theology,

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or whether it's nature and grace,
we're arguing for an interpenetration of these things

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by the divine, not a situation
where the divine is cut off by a

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wall of created effects. So again
it's like, and I'm not trying to

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be rude or disparaging, but like
you know, Thomas is very very clear

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in the Sumicondrid and telays like he
lays out first principles, right, and

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first principles are going to guide everything
that you know about the domain of the

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sciences and natural theology and natural philosophy. Then you'll build on top of that

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natural structure the second tier of and
SuperNature, which is trinity, Christology,

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virgin birth, miracles, all those
things, because those things go beyond and

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for him, in some sense require
a degree of leap of faith. So

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what I would say is that let
me give you an let's put this into

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one concrete example. So for example, I would say that you can't understand

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the natural order without the doctrine of
the fall, because when I look out

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at the natural order, I do
see design, I do see order.

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I do see causation. I do
see you know, motion, tilos,

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all those things. But what we
don't see. Another thing we see though,

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is predator prey relationships. We see
death in the natural order. So

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a lot of atheists, for example, and you can go back to like

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an Enlightenment atheists, classic atheists,
they dole Bach and those people coming out

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of the Enlightenment Voltaire type people,
they would say, you tonets when you

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argue for the natural order, demonstrating
design and purpose and all these things.

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Maybe that's the case, but it
also seems to exhibit lack of design,

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poor design, death, decay,
entropy, destruction, all these things that

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don't make for a good designer.
So a lot of the atheist apologists at

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that time pointed out that if you, as a Thomas, were going to

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argue for theism, it would be
more akin to something like gnosticism, where

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this world was designed by a poor, blind, goofy creator who created this

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mess with a bunch of death and
chaos and destruction in it, when he

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could have designed something a lot better
if he's omniscient all these other attributes.

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So their point is that as a
Thomas, you've arbitrarily picked things like design,

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cause, order, t los,
etc. In the natural order,

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and you've ignored things like death,
entropy, decay, destruction. So the

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point is that what I'm saying is
that the natural order is an example of

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something that you can't properly interpret without
the doctrine of the fall, because the

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fall for us is what gives an
account for they the chaos. The death

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for us, as Orthodox death is
unnatural. There's no such thing as natural

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death. It makes no sense because
in Genesis Adam brings all forms of death,

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physical and spiritual. So you need
divine revelation because that's where the doctrine

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of the fall comes from. Right, But in the Tomistic system, you

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interpret supposedly the natural world without divine
revelation. That's your first principles. And

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what I'm saying is, well,
you can't even understand the natural order without

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the doctrine of the fall. But
the doctrine of the fall is part of

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divine revelation. So that violates how
Atomis will go about interpreting nature. Yeah,

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so my first response would be the
distinction between a natural evil and a

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moral evil. That God is the
author of all natural evils according to his

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providential designs. So that you're trying
to cut you off. Oh yeah.

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But the argument was not that God
is not providentially behind these things, or

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that there's not a distinction between moral
evil and naturally evil, but that things

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like death, decay, and entropy. Right, death is a as a

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result of the fall. Would you
agree? So for humans? Yes?

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Do you Are you under the impression
that death is a consequence of the fall

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for animals as well? Oh?
Absolutely? I think Romans eight's very clear

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that Paul says in Romans eight that
God subjected the entire order, natural order

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to death, decay, and corruption, and that's why it awaits the recapitulation

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in Christ. So you may not
be aware of it, but in Orthodox

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theology we follow the teaching of the
Seven Councils and the point that do you

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know what recapitulation is? Have you
heard of that? No? So this

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is a Christological teaching that's in Irenaeus, and it's continued in Cyril of Alexandria,

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Athanacious, It's all the way up
until Maximus job Damascus. They all

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teach that when Christ assumes human nature, he assumed universal human nature. That's

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why all men are resurrected, even
the reprobate. So all men are going

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to be resurrected, and not just
physical flesh resurrection. And this is because

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Paul says in one crienty is fifteen
that as an atom, all die,

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so in Christ all will be made
alive. Romans eight says that the whole

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created order was subjected to decay and
bondage, waiting for the liberation that would

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occur in Christ. So Christ doesn't
just resurrect the entire human race, he

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also restores the entire created natural order
to a new heavens and a new Earth.

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So this is very This is far
a field from the Tomistic idea of

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the escton being a beatific vision.
So it's an actual bodily resurrection with all

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the universe restored. Yeah. So
I again this is going off memory for

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me, but I've been studied Romans
at length. But I have, you

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know chapter eight as and this could
be translation differences, but all of creation

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yearns is waiting in yearning with labor
pains, but was waiting in yearning with

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labor pains for the coming of Christ. So there is a relationship. I

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think that's clear. There's a relationship. I like what you're saying. It

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says in God subject the resurrection of
all creation. It says God's objecting the

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created order right to that decay.
It's not waiting for the incarnation. It's

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a statement about the escton. I'll
read the section so we're clear what he's

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saying. Yeah, yeah, I'm
pulling it up on mine as well.

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So he says that I consider the
sufferings of the present time, this is

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eight eighteen, are not worthy to
be compared to the glory which will be

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revealed in us. So this is
an eschatological statement, for the earnest expectation

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of the creation equally awaits the revelation
of the sons of God. For the

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creation was subjected to futility, not
willingly, but because of Him who subjected

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it in hope, because the creation
itself will be delivered from the bondage of

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corruption into the liberty the children.
For we know that the whole creation labors

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groans, in labors with birth pains
together until now. Not only that,

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but we have the first ruts of
the spirit. So he's saying, I

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understand him to be saying that all
of the created order fell when Adam fell,

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So all elements of death, decay, destruction entered when Adam sin because

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Adam was the steward, he was
the head of the entire created order.

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That's why Christ. This is it's
very important to pair this with one Corinthians

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fifteen, which is the crystological recapitulation
passes where Paul talks about the extent of

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Adam sin on all of his descendants, not just but on all of them

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identical to the extent of what Christ
brings. So that means all human beings

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are resurrected because Christ assumed their universal
human nature. Right. No, and

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I mean I certainly agree to the
general judgment proposition that all will be raised,

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both the saved, right. And
why are the wicked resurrected? Because,

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for example, in I mean,
it may be in aquinas some people

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have argued it might be, yeah, yeah, but it's not in Augustine.

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For example, Augustine struggles with why
the reprobate or resurrected because they have

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no connection to Christ. Yeah.
So again I'm give you my understanding,

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which is that because of our nature, the soul is immortal, it's proper

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to our nature for the body to
remain united to it. This is where

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I would distinguish the creation the rest
of creation, animal creation prior to prior

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to Adam. And so this is
where like, like you were just saying,

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when I'm reading there for the creation
verse twenty of Romans eight or verse

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nineteen, for the creation weights with
eager longing for the real revealing of the

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sons of God. For the creation
was subjected to futility, not of its

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own will, but by the will
of Him who subjected it. In hope,

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I'm seeing that not as a consequence
of the original sin, but as

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their nature doesn't entail poss an immortal
soul, they're going to be subject to

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death now creation because but hold on, it's the whole creation, it's not

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just animals. So again, I
guess I'm just not under like for us,

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death is the enemy. Paul says, there is no such thing as

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natural There's no there's no natural death. All death as a result of adam

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sin, including plants. So that's
why the us Gaton describes not a beatific

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vision of the essence of God where
the intellect associated. It describes a new

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heavens and a new earth where there
are people groups, there's nations, there's

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these things that don't make sense in
this beatific vision imagery of what I see

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in Aquinius from Catholicism. And that's
why the other passages like Colossians won.

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Paul says that all the created order
has been redeemed in Christ. How is

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all the created order redeemed in your
view? Yeah, so I would.

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I would see it that because God, now it's himself too material creations through

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man, through the access point of
man, that at this point now we're

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going to have affected something supernatural.
What from my understanding is that it's natural

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for man to live immortally. It's
not natural for a plant to live immortally.

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And this would be like Jesus uh
talking about do not do not be

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anxious for you see the lilies of
the field who one day are are beautiful,

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on the next day are cast into
the fire. And you know how

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much more, how much more God
loves you whom He has all you know,

359
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all the numbers. The du kind
of says God does not will death.

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Yeah right, that God did not
create and did not will death.

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But you're saying that, well,
it's one of the wisdom texts as God.

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I think it's wisdom. God did
not create death, so death.

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So you're saying that, well,
death is natural for plants, is it

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for animals or for anything that doesn't
have an immortal soul? Okay, but

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where does this for us? Where's
the idea that death is natural for those

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things but not for human beings?
Where's that like? In scripture? I

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couldn't tell you. And well,
but see, I couldn't give you a

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specific one, but Scripture always encapsulates
all death as a result of what Satan

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first and then Adam did. So
Satan introduces that in the angelic order when

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a third of the angels fall with
him at the very beginning. Satan then

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tempts Man, and Man enters into
a covenant with the Angel of death.

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So all death has its source in
the one who rebelled against God, the

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Angel of Death. And when Man
made a covenant with Satan in the garden,

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he entered into that kingdom. And
this is why Christ went into the

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Kingdom of Death to destroy the Angel
of Death. So this is what the

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00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,359
destan. Are you familiar with the
descent into hades? Yes? But right

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there you're saying it. You're talking
about the angelic order and the human order,

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but you're talking about that's all.
I'm not saying that. I'm not

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saying that that's why all of these
passages, like in Colossians speak about the

380
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,640
redemption of everything. Let me give
you an example. Maximus says that when

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00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:24,640
when when Adam fell, all the
created order was jarred as a result,

382
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:30,799
and it's it's out of whack with
the low gie upon which they're based.

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He says, when Christ assumed universal
human nature, he also restored all of

384
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the created order everything. Jupiter mars
everything via that incarnational act to be restored

385
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in the escton back to what it
was intended to be in the garden.

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So but what I hear is that, well, God created some things in

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the garden to die, like plants
and something like that. But again,

388
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:58,480
this is a later idea that it's
added. It's not there in the Patristic

389
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:00,519
consensus when it comes to the idea
of what's going on in the garden.

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And I understand the tomistic idea of
how it works in the garden with the

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00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,799
donum superadditimin and all that, we
don't have any of that. So,

392
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,000
but that's because and I'm not trying
to be off kilter or get off topic,

393
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,840
but like you have. For us. Christology is the meaning of the

394
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,960
natural order. Adam is made in
the image of Jesus in the garden.

395
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That's another way to see that.
And this is actually a debate between Franciscans

396
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:28,039
and Thomas as well. To show
that Thomas don't teach this. Adam isn't

397
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:30,280
made in the image of the divine
Essence. Adam isn't made in the image

398
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,519
of the intellect of God. Adam
is made in the image of the triad

399
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,599
right, and in particularly in the
image of Christ. Because who's walking in

400
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,920
the garden. It's the logos the
same guy walking and wrestling with Jacob.

401
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:49,960
Right, we know that Jesus as
who wrestles with Jacob, because Jesus identifies

402
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,599
himself in the Gospel of John as
the one who wrestled with Jacob. So

403
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:57,320
it's not an angel. So again
I'm not trying to shift off of you

404
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,400
know, the issue of Genesis.
We can stay on that or move on

405
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,639
to the Oftenes or whatever you want, but the Oftenes are a good element

406
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,480
to demonstrate that, like we have
a totally different understanding of Genesis and what's

407
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:13,519
happening in Eden than Atomas would have. Another way to illustrate this is that's

408
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:19,800
it's the Eden is a created paradise
that was always intended to be eternal.

409
00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:23,800
It was never intended to have death
as some functioning of it. And that's

410
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:30,079
why for us, like mosquitoes,
predator prey relationships, these are all results

411
00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,320
of the fall. They're not natural. There's nothing natural at all about death,

412
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,320
because all death is a violation of
God's original order. And it's not

413
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:42,119
I mean the do orconomical text,
I forget which one it is. Somebody

414
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:45,519
can been in the Chat. It
specifically says God did not will death.

415
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,800
So now you're saying, well,
but there's this other category of natural death

416
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,440
that he did will. But that's
what I'm saying is that that's why the

417
00:35:52,639 --> 00:36:00,039
escaton in scripture always pictures the final
state, not as that some mental ethereal

418
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:06,599
thing where we stare into God's essence. It's always pictured as bodies walking around

419
00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:08,840
and doing stuff like when Jesus was
resurrected. Remember the end of John,

420
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,480
when Jesus resurrected and he's walking around
and he's eating fish, and he's walking

421
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:15,440
through walls and he's doing all kinds
of crazy stuff. But it's still that

422
00:36:15,519 --> 00:36:21,960
same body, right, But I'm
saying that in Tomism and in Roman Catholicism,

423
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,719
because of the Beatific vision doctrine,
you get this sort of displacing and

424
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,239
almost forgetting of the importance of the
body and the resurrection because of the stress

425
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,960
on intellect. I would argue that
in a Quinas and August and basically the

426
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:37,719
soul is identical to or pretty much
summed up in intellect, So there's no

427
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,039
doctrine of the heart or the news, which is a fundamental Orthodox idea.

428
00:36:42,559 --> 00:36:45,480
So point being is that you know, what we're seeing in the Esketon is

429
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:53,639
the Edenic state extended to the universe. The universe is basically a kind of

430
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,280
eating in the Esketon that I would
see portraying scriptures. This is very common

431
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,239
in the Eastern file. But I
say the asketon that you're talking about very

432
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,440
different right in the Atific vision,
and that's because in the garden we have

433
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:12,000
totally different ideas about what's going on, and there's I just don't understand how

434
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,920
death could be natural when you've got
so many passages that extend Christ's redemption to

435
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:23,320
every molecule. Yeah, so do
you abrogate Genesis one with Genesis two,

436
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,760
starting with the Atom and Eve story, because to me, the just the

437
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,079
first thing on the surface that comes
to mind is that when he creates plants

438
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:36,719
and animals and then subjects all things
to man, that that entails the eating

439
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,840
and the living off those things,
which would necessarily bring with it death.

440
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,679
No, and this is prior to
the fall. So you'll notice, as

441
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,079
pretty much every church father exegutes the
giving of the skins, the biological skin

442
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,599
bodies that we have now are the
bodies that are given as a result of

443
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:54,079
the fall. That's why God says
he skinned the animals and gave them coats

444
00:37:54,119 --> 00:38:00,599
of skin, so you would the
state of things could still be physical,

445
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,920
but it not operate the way it
operates now. So we believe that Eden

446
00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:10,119
was a very different metaphysical system than
we have with our you know, fallen

447
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:16,280
bodies and fallen state. That's why
the New Testament passages like First John describe

448
00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:20,920
when we see him, we shall
be like him right because we will be

449
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:25,079
conformed, Paul says in Philippians,
to the image of his heavenly glorious body.

450
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:32,000
So the physical resurrected body of Christ
is the image of what was intended

451
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:37,599
for man in Eden, which is
a body that doesn't require physical sustenance,

452
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,599
but it's still bodily in its existence. It's still extended in space and time.

453
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,639
It still moves around and does stuff. So the resurrect the body of

454
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:51,360
Christ is the paradigm of the entire
future escton, and it is what Eden

455
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:57,440
was intended to be. So that
means that Eden was not operating on the

456
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,159
fallen mode of being. So there
was no death. There weren't mosquitoes eat

457
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:02,800
There might have been mosquitoes, but
they weren't eating in sucking blood. So

458
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,639
the whole predator prey relationship entered as
a result of the fall. It's not

459
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,599
prior to the fall. And that's
you can see that by the fact that

460
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,119
God doesn't even allow us to eat
animals until up to the time of Noah.

461
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:21,480
So we weren't eating animals in the
garden of Eden, right, but

462
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,880
plants presumably, But even you're saying
if they didn't need nourishment, it would

463
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,519
kind of then undermine the observation of
Jesus coming back in the flesh and eating

464
00:39:29,639 --> 00:39:32,480
the fish and doing those things.
Well, he doesn't do it because he

465
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:37,679
needed physical sustenance. It says he
did it to demonstrate that he's still the

466
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,719
same guy. Right, so that
the resurrected body, as Saint Cyril says,

467
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,840
you should read the two letters of
Cyril to census. He says,

468
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:51,519
the resurrected body of Christ even transcends
the blameless passions. The blameless passions would

469
00:39:51,559 --> 00:39:53,519
be things like hunger, thirst,
being tired, and so forth. So

470
00:39:53,679 --> 00:40:00,320
Christ never had blameless or blame full
passions. Blame full passions would be things

471
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:07,000
like what you call concupiscences or the
aspects of of original sin. We call

472
00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,119
it the passions in Orthodoxy, and
so we don't believe that Christ had any

473
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,199
internal motivations towards either blameful or blameless
passions. So for us, when we

474
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,639
say blame less passions, this comes
out of the Sixth Council. Christ did

475
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,360
thirst, he did hunger, but
those are results of the fall that are

476
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:30,880
blameless. They don't entail any sin. Yeah, So I mean, I

477
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,360
guess to me that seems to map
onto the distinction between antecede and concupiscent and

478
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,519
consequence, sorry, consequent desires.
I don't think that we just Orthodoxy in

479
00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:44,639
Rome disagree on that point. Okay, okay, Okay, so part of

480
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:49,280
the questions, because I'm seeing where
some of this stuff is obviously going to

481
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:55,159
remain key, as if we try
and go through to divine simplicity to Theophanes,

482
00:40:55,599 --> 00:41:00,400
to essence, energies, and so
it might be something where it's it's

483
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,280
hard for us to really navigate.
I I mean, I guess I if

484
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,960
you want, I could try and
recap sort of my final position at least

485
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:16,000
to this part of the discussion about
about the distinction between nature and grace,

486
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:20,480
as I see it as a continuation
as grace, you know, again,

487
00:41:20,559 --> 00:41:24,559
grace perfecting nature, that they can't
be unrelated in that way. It's let

488
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:28,320
me grab a book, make your
statement. I'm gonna grab a book.

489
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,679
I'm listening. I'm not being rude. Yeah, yeah, no. But

490
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,440
to me, that's that seems to
be the place in which you see a

491
00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:39,000
sort of at least enough coherence for
us to then be able to move on

492
00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:45,480
to those next layers of conversation where
it doesn't seem that it's so I don't

493
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:50,480
know, fatally contradictory our positions.
I would say that it does seem to

494
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:54,280
be a distinction that that to meet
death is natural to a thing without an

495
00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:00,320
immortal soul unnatural to us. So
would firmly agree that death is unnatural to

496
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,239
us. And it would even account
for even when we approach death, if

497
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,079
we feel that our soul is well
prepared, because of the unnaturalness of it,

498
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:12,239
there's going to be a sort of
revulsion in us toward it, and

499
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,880
that that speaks to our nature as
as not being one that is meant to

500
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,280
terminate. And so the way I
would take it is Adam in the Fall.

501
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,280
And I know that there are a
lot of discussions between tumas, between

502
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:29,119
obviously between Franciscans, between any number
of groups about what things would have been

503
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,599
like prelaps arian prior to the fall. But I can give you my take

504
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:38,199
on it would be something to the
effect that prior to the Fall, Adam

505
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,079
still would have existed in the body. He would not have yet had glorified

506
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,679
nature. I'm sure this opens its
own bag of worms, but he wouldn't

507
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:49,360
have had glorified nature at that point. Now, at the end of his

508
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,159
life, it would have been something
more akin to Marry or Elijah or Enoch,

509
00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:57,679
where there would have been some sort
of like assumption into heaven. But

510
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,880
it wouldn't have been the the pure
glorification of the nature that we see in

511
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:07,400
the resurrected Christ. Now yet now
they're going to do that assumption and sort

512
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,039
of a my serious way be grafted
in to that. But that would be

513
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:19,920
kind of my take on how nature. Nature is seamlessly interconnected with the supernatural,

514
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,880
that it doesn't seem that it would
raise a big enough red flag to

515
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:28,400
not try and go forward to divine
simplicity. But I do see how these

516
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,760
are. I mean, it is
a significant distinction. The notion that nothing

517
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:37,280
would have died at all, plants, animals, anything, prior to the

518
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,519
fall, does seem to be a
significant point of difference, right, And

519
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,360
I would say that to sum up
where this really the rubber meets the road

520
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,119
between Orthodox Roman Catholics, is that
Orthodox Christology, which comes out of the

521
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:54,960
Seven Councils, especially as you get
up into the Seventh Council, is pretty

522
00:43:55,039 --> 00:44:00,320
clear about Christ assuming universal human nature
and then what the effects, what the

523
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,519
consequence of that would be. And
again this is called the doctrine of recapitulation.

524
00:44:04,679 --> 00:44:08,320
And this is very it's often very
foreign to Roman Catholics when they first

525
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,480
hear about it. I have an
essay here that I wrote many years ago

526
00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:16,760
about the idea of recapitulation, so
you'll first read about it. You'll read

527
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:22,199
about it in erin As and Eronas. When I was Atomis, i'd never

528
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,239
heard of this, and I didn't
even realize it was like a big point

529
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,519
of difference. But it really does
contrast because you don't, first of all,

530
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:32,159
you do never see this in Augustine
at all. And for us,

531
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,760
you know, we think he's a
saint, but we follow him far less

532
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:45,079
than Roman Catholics do because the Trinitarian
theology that's accepted for the Ecumenical Councils is

533
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,800
constantinople one accepting the Cappadocian doctrine,
which is not the Augustinian doctrine. So

534
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,320
there's a really good book that points
out what we're talking about in the garden

535
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,199
in terms of a man being made
in the image of Christ, and that's

536
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:00,519
deification in Christ. And this is
funny because, like I said, like

537
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:09,360
this actually mirrors a debate between Tomists
and Franciscans. So Franciscans just on this

538
00:45:09,519 --> 00:45:16,159
point are closer to Orthodox than anyone
else because they agree that there's some sense

539
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:19,960
in which Adam is made in the
image of Christ, and that's for us

540
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:25,559
why you can't really do anthropology or
natural theology without Christ, because Adam was

541
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:31,000
made his very meaning is the second
person of the Godhead. But that again

542
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:37,400
is against the notion of natural theology
where you start your epistemic enterprise with the

543
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:43,360
first principles of natural philosophy and natural
science. And we're saying that it's not

544
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,199
that you can't do science or you
can't do this, but the episthetic first

545
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:51,440
principle would have to be we would
argue divine revelation and not these sort of

546
00:45:51,559 --> 00:45:57,599
arbitrary ad hoc you know, principles
of Aristotle or whatever. Doesn't mean that

547
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,920
this doesn't mean that principles are wrong. It just means that how can they

548
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,920
be epistemic starting points given the fact
that, in my view, you can't

549
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,039
really you can't really justify them without
just sort of asserting them. So do

550
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:15,159
you want to talk about let's talk
about Theophanes because this came up. I

551
00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:19,599
mean, yeah, my understanding of
you know, what's going on in the

552
00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:22,159
garden when we see the Lord walking
in the cool of the evening. And

553
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,079
now I'm not trying to be some
kind of weird fundamentalists. I understand the

554
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:29,800
Bible uses, you know, figurative
language. I understand the fourth senses of

555
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,519
scripture, of the quadriga. We
believe that as well as Orthodox. So

556
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:37,960
I'm not saying that that everything in
Genesis is quote literal in the sense of

557
00:46:38,119 --> 00:46:43,800
like a talking snake. I think
that that's an angelic being. It's it's

558
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,760
one of the fallen angels. So
there's always this serpentine symbolism and imagery connected

559
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,360
to Satan. It's not saying that
he's like a literal snake, per se.

560
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:58,960
And likewise, other elements of Genesis
might be symbolic. But one thing

561
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,239
that can't be symbolic is the notion
of God having a form or a body,

562
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:09,559
and that exists in the Old Testament
in vast passages. And I know

563
00:47:09,679 --> 00:47:14,880
this only because I've had to launch
into this specific topic in great detail,

564
00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:22,159
going even into the rabbinical sources of
modern rabbinical exegetes who admit that the Old

565
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:27,320
Testament is rife with images of God
having a body and a form. And

566
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,039
how could that be given the fact
that we tend to think of Old Testament

567
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:37,599
religion or Judaism as a sort of
a unitarian, non physical, iconoclastic religion.

568
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:42,000
And the answer is that it wasn't
iconoclastic and it wasn't unitarian. In

569
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:45,960
fact, the very arguments that we
champion against Islam, because this is the

570
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:51,760
key point of departure between Islam and
Christianity, is this notion of God in

571
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,880
the created order. Every mauslem will
tell you that God cannot enter the created

572
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,000
order because it mean that he undergoes
change, because he's absolutely simple, because

573
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,280
blah blah blah blah blah. Right, And the answer is that, well,

574
00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:05,599
God, in terms of his divine
essence, is not in the created

575
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,679
order. But God has a way, a manifestation by which he can be

576
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:14,480
in the created order. Hence the
incarnation is possible, and that's via his

577
00:48:14,639 --> 00:48:20,079
divine personal energies. So for us, the Theophanes are the first easy proof

578
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:24,679
not just that the Old Testament is
a Trinitarian, but also that there's some

579
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:30,079
distinction between the inner, unrevealed aspect
of God that can never be known his

580
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:36,519
essence, and then what He reveals
and manifests us to us his divine personal

581
00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:39,239
energies. So all of those energies, I stress they're personal because this is

582
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:45,320
not like a divine essence, that's
like giving us the lower because a lot

583
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,840
of times Tomas said, well,
this is polytheism. You're denying the divine,

584
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,760
the doctrine, divine simplicity. Every
Orthodox person believes that God is absolutely

585
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,719
simple in his essence, in that
he's not composed of parts, he doesn't

586
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,760
have composition, He's not acted upon
to be changed or something like that.

587
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,280
But God does have the ability to
act in different ways and to do different

588
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,960
things, and to be in time
and space, and to change without himself

589
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:14,719
undergoing change. So, in other
words, so some of these theophanes come

590
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,599
and go like the cloud, like
the fire. These manifestations, the theophanic

591
00:49:19,679 --> 00:49:25,760
manifestations, cannot be creatures because they
are specifically worshiped and identified as God and

592
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:31,199
as Yahweh. For example, I
give two great examples worship the wrestling with

593
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,719
Jacob, which we're told in the
Book of John early on, Jesus says

594
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:43,320
that you know that ladder that descends
from heaven to earth, that's Me.

595
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,480
And that means that that ladder that
descended to heaven and earth over the angel,

596
00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:52,079
that Jacob, that was Jesus.
That Jacob's worship with and he's he's

597
00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:55,480
called God, he's called Yahweh.
So this angel figure that appears not just

598
00:49:55,559 --> 00:50:01,239
in Genesis multiple times, but in
Judges, in Joshua, in Daniel,

599
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:07,800
in Ezekiel one through eleven, this
angel just means messenger, doesn't mean created

600
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:13,400
all the time. This angelic messenger
is the messenger of the Covenant. Exodus

601
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,360
three, Exodus twenty three, the
messenger in the face of the Lord,

602
00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:20,800
in whom is the name of Yahweh. That's Jesus, very clearly. Jesus

603
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:27,239
himself identifies himself as the guy at
the meal with Abraham and Genesis sixteen,

604
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,239
the guy eating with Moses on top
of the mountain in Exodus, right,

605
00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:35,679
Jesus says that that was me,
right. So the point is that I

606
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,199
would say, this is one of
the strongest arguments against Thomism, is that

607
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:43,719
although Roman Catholics and Thomas might themselves
believe, yeah, pretty clearly, that's

608
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,159
a that's Jesus. I mean,
justin Marter argues against Tripho the Jew,

609
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,880
he says, how can you not
believe your own scriptures when the Angel of

610
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,760
the Lord is Jesus present in all
these passages? Precisely because the doctor of

611
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:58,960
divine simplicity in the Thomas system absolute
divine simplicity in Tomism, you get this

612
00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:02,039
struggling with how an absolutely simple essence
can be present in time and space.

613
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:07,159
And it's book three of on the
Trinity where Augustine struggles with us and even

614
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:12,639
he says, it's perhaps it's the
Lord, but I can't see how given

615
00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:16,639
his divine simplicity, because to be
in time and space would be contrary to

616
00:51:17,199 --> 00:51:22,719
the Neoplatonic definition of what an absolutely
simple essences, and Augustine explicitly says and

617
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:29,719
uses the Plutinian definition Origin says the
exact same thing and first principles. He

618
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,320
says, the exact same definition of
what divine simplicity is. The Cappadocians,

619
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,239
there's a whole PhD Thesis you could
read on this called Basal of Sasareea Gregor

620
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:45,480
Vanessa and the Transformation of Divine Simplicity
by Gallowitz. They don't believe, they

621
00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:51,559
don't use this definition of what divine
simplicity is. So we're not denying divine

622
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:55,519
simplicity, but we're not starting our
simplicity doctrine out with a plutonium doctrine of

623
00:51:55,599 --> 00:52:00,079
it, which excludes from the outset
of the possibility of God being in time

624
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:02,920
and space, which then I would
argue the Thomas and other people are just

625
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:08,039
simply inconsistent because I know you confess
that Jesus is the second hypostasis incarnate.

626
00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:15,360
Yeah. Yeah, so I like
the way you lay that out. We're

627
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:20,239
in agreement on the divine simplicity of
God's essence, I think, and this

628
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,760
kind of draws back to our other
conversation, but I think the disagreement would

629
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:29,800
be over the divine simplicity extending to
God's one simple act. Is that correct?

630
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,920
Right? So the Thomas doctrine is
that the attributes of God and his

631
00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:40,679
acts are all synonymous amongst themselves and
with the divine essence that is. That

632
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,559
is the Thomas doctrine, and we
would disagree with that. Yeah. So

633
00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:51,639
the action, the action of walking
on water is different from the action of

634
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:57,280
creating the world, which is different
from the action of deifying the human nature

635
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,719
that he assumed. And so you
would say, as every Thomas says,

636
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,519
those are created effects. They're not
created effects. I'm talking about the acts

637
00:53:04,599 --> 00:53:08,039
themselves, not the effects. We
all agree that when God created the world,

638
00:53:08,119 --> 00:53:12,719
that's an effect of his action.
I'm talking about the act itself.

639
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,679
Creating the world is different from resting
on the seventh day, for example,

640
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:22,000
And if you read Confessions, Augustine
says, I can't understand how God,

641
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:29,880
being absolutely simple and identical with himself, that he could create and then rest

642
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,440
on the seventh day. And in
Palomos's debate with Barley and he actually brings

643
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,679
this passage up and he says,
if all of God's acts are identical with

644
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,280
his essence, then how does he
rest and cease from the action of creating.

645
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:43,199
I don't mean again, and I'm
not trying to be rude to you,

646
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,800
but I've had this debate probably fifty
times in the last fifteen years.

647
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:52,639
I don't mean the effect of the
created order. I mean the action of

648
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,840
creating itself. Okay, so don't
just say, well, God's the cause

649
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,639
and creation's the effect. We know
that you believe that the distinct is over

650
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:07,519
different actions, because it's specifically Divinity
involved in and doing different things. Creating

651
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:13,360
the world cannot be the same thing
as becoming incarnate, being born of a

652
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,559
version, walking on water, doing
a miracle, which is a For example,

653
00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:21,519
John Damascus says, every time Christ
does a miracle. This is a

654
00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:27,199
demonstration of his divine energy in time
and space. So how to divine energies

655
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,719
enter into time and space and do
miracles and deify the human nature and do

656
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:36,519
all these different things that Christ is
doing if it's not possible for an absolutely

657
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,960
simple, pure act being to be
in time and space, because that would

658
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,039
require change. So, in other
words, the philosophy and the natural theology

659
00:54:43,079 --> 00:54:46,719
that you guys do contradicts the supernatural
theology that you tack on later, is

660
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:53,000
the point. Yeah, So I
want to grant the definitely different acts,

661
00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:58,840
right, definitely different actions. I'm
not trying to find some way where it's

662
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,519
like, well, actually you know
this him creating the world. I like

663
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:05,719
the way you've put it, walking
on water, doing these they're they're all

664
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,519
different things. So the question becomes, does that square with the ones in

665
00:55:09,639 --> 00:55:13,760
black? I know I'm not going
to go to cause verse effects distinction.

666
00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:17,519
I think I have a good insight
or way of thinking about it that begins

667
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:22,000
to answer this. Now, it
does have to take recourse, that distinction

668
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:29,480
between discursive reason and what we're taking
for this higher form of intellection, divine

669
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:34,199
intellection that doesn't require the same steps
as dis discursive reasoning. So if you

670
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,280
want, I could try and lay
that out first, or I could just

671
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,199
go for it. What do you
do? So, I mean, let's

672
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,960
let's before we do that. I'm
not trying to get away from that.

673
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:46,159
You can bring that up at any
people, right, I mean, let's

674
00:55:46,199 --> 00:55:51,239
talk about wrestling with Jacob, wrestling
with the Angel. I mean, who

675
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,480
or what is that? How is
that possible in your system? I can

676
00:55:54,559 --> 00:56:00,480
accept that as as Christ okay,
as being God, not not a created

677
00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:02,760
not you know, not not the
creative effect, but being God. Okay,

678
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,519
that's not possible in Tunism. And
I'm not trying to be rude,

679
00:56:06,599 --> 00:56:08,559
but I don't see yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's

680
00:56:08,599 --> 00:56:12,920
fine. But we've gotten to this
impass already where it's like, if I'm

681
00:56:13,159 --> 00:56:15,440
outside of Tomism, so be it. I don't have, you know,

682
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:20,599
some some person standing over me going
hey, you have to be here,

683
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:24,079
here and here right now. I
think that it merges with Thomas, but

684
00:56:24,199 --> 00:56:27,719
that's just not my number one priority. Well, you know what I mean,

685
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,039
Technically, it might be something and
it's possible that you know, there

686
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:35,800
is a place somewhere where Aquinas mentions
this, right, maybe he maybe he

687
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,119
just maybe he does that because I
actually think that in a lot of places,

688
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,960
people are better than their systems and
their theology, right. I don't

689
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,760
think that everybody gets every point absolutely
consistent with the rest of their points,

690
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:51,119
and and that's true for all of
us. So I'm happy to be charitable

691
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:54,679
and grant that Aquinas didn't intend to
be incorrect or to try, you know,

692
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,000
to to contradict or something like that. But but I would. But

693
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:02,320
that's a different art from whether it
actually is consistent. So my argument is

694
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:07,480
just simply that the way that you
guys conceive of you know, And I

695
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:12,800
can read Phaser here in his introduction
to Scholastics, he says, for example,

696
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,719
if we turn the divisions of act
and actuality, this is not long.

697
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,840
The first table to be made is
between pure act and mixed act.

698
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,599
Act is purists or act utterly unmixed
with any potentiality is the core of all

699
00:57:23,639 --> 00:57:29,559
Scholastic philosophy's conception of God. Everything
else is in act and in some way

700
00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:32,719
mixed with potency. And then I'm
gonna skip down to the last point.

701
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,440
I'm not trying to lie. It's
not being deceptive, it's just getting to

702
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,639
the bottom of the paragraphere. He
says, an angel, for example,

703
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:44,280
is a relatively pure act in that
it is without matter. And then he

704
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:49,280
says, however, its essence is
still in potency relative to its existence.

705
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,480
Right, So this is something that
Thomas believe is a feature of all created

706
00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:57,719
things. Right, this is not
the case, so that he says,

707
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,360
this is absolutely not pure act.
Only God is absolutely pure act. Right.

708
00:58:04,039 --> 00:58:07,400
And this is specifically about this notion
of potentialities in God. And I

709
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,280
don't know if you're familiar with the
modal collapse issue, but this has been

710
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,719
a huge debate in tumism or people
critiquing tumism for a long time. And

711
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:21,239
we can talk aboutency no, no, no modal collapse in that if if

712
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,360
God's action of creating a synonymous with
his essence, then God has eternally created

713
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:30,639
the created order. So this is
the modal collapse argument. So the point

714
00:58:30,719 --> 00:58:32,719
is that the effects would be just
as eternal as the action. And I

715
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,920
know that Thomas will say, no, there's an inter we interpose God's will

716
00:58:37,039 --> 00:58:39,480
there where God then it will to
create all of these other things. But

717
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:45,960
it's missing the point that the point
is that all potentialities right. God has,

718
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:51,480
for example, knowledge of the worlds
that he didn't create. Right,

719
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,519
Like, God has knowledge of a
world, a possible world where there's no

720
00:58:54,639 --> 00:59:00,559
Thomas Aquinas, Right, possible world
where there's no I don't know China.

721
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:05,639
Okay, did God create those worlds? No, he didn't create He created

722
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:08,760
this world. Okay, So what
that means then is that there are potentialities

723
00:59:09,159 --> 00:59:14,199
within God. God has divine ideas
of all of the worlds that didn't create,

724
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,480
and yet he didn't create them.
So that would then, on this

725
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:24,079
definition, make God a mixed being
and not pure act. Yeah. I

726
00:59:24,159 --> 00:59:28,559
don't. I'm not a big fan
of what he was just saying there about

727
00:59:28,599 --> 00:59:34,639
angels. That struck me to say
that the essence and well, I forget

728
00:59:34,719 --> 00:59:39,159
word for word what Phaser just said
that created beings. Yeah, they're created

729
00:59:39,199 --> 00:59:43,960
beings. But but as far as
I know, because they don't have matter,

730
00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:49,079
their their their nature, their essence
is going to be identical with their

731
00:59:49,119 --> 00:59:53,440
individual person, their individual existence.
Now, their essence is not that they

732
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:59,119
exist. No, he's just saying
that they exist in a state of potentia,

733
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,199
right, that they undergo change.
Yeah, there, they have created

734
01:00:02,239 --> 01:00:07,039
attributes regardless of whatever the point is
not the angels. So the point is

735
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:13,320
that God is absolutely simple, pure
act, and that means that no uh

736
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:20,400
mixed, there's no mixed potency or
no potentiality. Right, Okay, but

737
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,440
if there's no, so every being
that possesses free will, though in some

738
01:00:23,639 --> 01:00:27,960
way, has potential to do this
thing or that thing. So this is

739
01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:31,280
why the Cappadocians, for example,
or do that God does possessed potentiality.

740
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:37,079
So Thomas, I know, I've
read read this at one point that seems

741
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,400
relevant, but he and I want
to hear your at least initial take on

742
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,119
this. But he says that while
God can have all the conceptions of possible

743
01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:47,559
worlds, even the ones he didn't
create, he does not have any conceptions

744
01:00:47,599 --> 01:00:52,039
of impossible things. Is that at
all? Yeah, but that's why I

745
01:00:52,239 --> 01:00:55,960
just said possible worlds. I didn't
say anying about impossible follow right, No,

746
01:00:57,039 --> 01:00:58,719
I agree, I agree, I
agree. This isn't going to be

747
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,559
a slam dunk point. I just
want to make sure sure that you know,

748
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,920
I don't know, just that there's
some Look, so God has knowledge

749
01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:07,559
of things that he didn't create that
are possible, and yet he didn't create

750
01:01:07,639 --> 01:01:12,960
them. Yeah, and so that's
a potentiality. So how can God's essence

751
01:01:13,039 --> 01:01:16,159
be pure act? God God cannot
be reduced to pure act. Yeah,

752
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,800
so so here and now I'm I'm
gonna give you what I think is actually

753
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:27,039
a really good take on it.
God's act is not discursive, So this

754
01:01:27,159 --> 01:01:30,679
is this is gonna be very important
because the discursive act differentiates between what you

755
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,000
desire as the end and what you
choose as a means. So choice is

756
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:36,840
always going to pertain to means.
And so that's going to actually say that

757
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,079
when we act, oftentimes we're going
to act by choices we make without the

758
01:01:40,199 --> 01:01:43,880
end even in sight to us.
We have to come to knowledge of the

759
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:46,480
end. God is one simple act, and it is the end, the

760
01:01:46,719 --> 01:01:51,239
end which he knows, which is
the desiring of his own goodness. And

761
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,960
so every single act that that means
that in his you know, eternal moment

762
01:01:54,039 --> 01:02:00,159
of existence, there is only one
act that's exactly identical with his essence,

763
01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:07,079
and that act is the act of
both knowing himself perfectly and desiring his own

764
01:02:07,159 --> 01:02:13,840
goodness. So becoming incarnate the same
as that is walking. No hold on,

765
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:15,239
no, no, no, no, no, it's not because becoming

766
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:21,920
incarnate is going to be included within
the category of the act. Now this

767
01:02:22,039 --> 01:02:28,519
is not the point. Is it
is pure so becoming so becoming so walking

768
01:02:28,559 --> 01:02:31,719
on water is the same as creating
the world. No, it's not.

769
01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:39,840
It's not so there, so the
acts are not the same the sub act.

770
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,440
So this is I know you're probably
you know rolling Yeah, you're probably

771
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:52,880
rolling your eyes. No, there
are sub acts. From our reasoning towards

772
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,719
how this works, the incarnation is
just appearance, that would be That would

773
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,639
be the doc to start. Second, so to say that the incarnation just

774
01:03:01,719 --> 01:03:08,360
appears to us to be in time
would be the docket's argument. Yeah,

775
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,199
no, no, but I'm not
saying it just appears that way. They

776
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,719
are here, so you understand your
system nation hold on, hold on,

777
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:21,320
yeah, hold on, yep,
hold on, hold on. So what

778
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,519
what The example they would lay out
that I think makes this profound is that

779
01:03:25,039 --> 01:03:30,599
when we act, as I said, choosing means and then somehow later on

780
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,480
trying to get to the end or
figuring it out where there's a succession of

781
01:03:32,559 --> 01:03:36,559
these things, and that the choice
in the act is going to happen at

782
01:03:36,599 --> 01:03:39,239
separate times. They would they would
contrast it. Thomas would contrast that with

783
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,480
someone who's like, if they get
to the point where they're a master builder

784
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:45,920
of a house and they always build
a house in the same way, if

785
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,360
they set their will on building that
house, they're going to know within that

786
01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:53,599
choice of building that house all the
different phases of what goes into making that

787
01:03:53,719 --> 01:03:57,239
house along the way. Right now, this is this is an analogy.

788
01:03:58,639 --> 01:04:00,519
What he's saying is that the de
fine hold on. No, it does

789
01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:05,519
actually answer because the divine Act doesn't
have the distinctions of discursion, which are

790
01:04:05,559 --> 01:04:11,280
these sequential choices at different times than
the final one. There is only the

791
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,960
one, final, perfect act,
which is the desiring of his own good.

792
01:04:14,159 --> 01:04:18,639
So basically he restated that it's only
one act and it appears to us

793
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:24,000
to be multiple different actions. But
no, creating the world is really a

794
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:29,440
different action in time. It's distended. It's distended in time, so it's

795
01:04:29,519 --> 01:04:33,360
going to happen different. You're missing
the point. So you're wait, so

796
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:39,039
it is really different. Yeah,
they are different. All those things are

797
01:04:39,039 --> 01:04:46,760
different, really different or conceptually different
yes, metaphysical different, yes, metaphysically

798
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,599
different. It's that God in he
for him. Okay, so then God

799
01:04:51,719 --> 01:04:57,320
is act. God is not identical
to his his act of he is pure

800
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,199
act. He is pure act,
he is identical to his act. Then

801
01:05:00,199 --> 01:05:04,000
he is not really is his desiring
of his own goodness. Then there's not

802
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:09,159
really distinct actions. You see,
those are mutual, exclusive claims and positions.

803
01:05:10,119 --> 01:05:15,280
I hear you. What I'm saying
is that the distinction is that when

804
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:18,079
we do discursive acts, we have
to do one at one time another another

805
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:20,159
time. The real point is that
God, I know what you're saying.

806
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:26,559
One, this is not answering.
I know that you believe that we're humans

807
01:05:26,639 --> 01:05:29,679
and we argue in a discursive way. I understand all that. I understand

808
01:05:29,719 --> 01:05:34,280
that that's your system's presentation. But
that's not answering the objection about on God's

809
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:40,320
end, the actions themselves are different
actions and intemism. God doesn't do different

810
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,880
actions. It's that simple. And
then you said, but no, they

811
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,199
are different actions, and then you
the explanation is the human vantage point of

812
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,840
discursive reasoning. That is not answering
the fact that it's not a human vantage

813
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:57,519
point problem. It's God himself doing
different things. I mean, do you

814
01:05:57,639 --> 01:06:01,639
not see that it's God himself acting
to create, and then God himself stepping

815
01:06:01,679 --> 01:06:06,559
into time and space so the real
issue seems to be can God himself act

816
01:06:06,639 --> 01:06:11,599
in time and space in your view? Right? And yes he can,

817
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,639
and that's going to be included.
This is I think the best way to

818
01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:17,960
think about his temporally. When he
does his one act of desiring himself,

819
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:23,840
he's going to have contained within him
a million different acts that are going to

820
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:30,480
be taking place. That one,
again departed from tumism. Yeah, okay,

821
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:32,239
that's fine. Maybe I'm departing from
tumism. I actually don't think i

822
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:38,559
am. But that's that God does
within multiple acts. Do you understand he

823
01:06:38,559 --> 01:06:44,079
has within him multiple ideas too that
you said just now, God has within

824
01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:48,280
him multiple acts, But that would
mean that God is not pure act.

825
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:54,400
Yes, within within the one pure
eternal act, which is the desiring of

826
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,400
his goodness, is going to have
within it. Just as a house.

827
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:59,800
A builder of a house knows that
they're going to build a house, and

828
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:01,519
they're going to do one thing on
the foundation, one thing on the walls,

829
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:04,440
one thing on this thing. Those
are all separate things. It's all

830
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:09,199
contained in the act of them build
going to build a house. This is

831
01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:15,199
how it works, that God desiring
of his goodness. Again, you're contradicting

832
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:19,320
yourself because it can't be one act. I hear God is actus purists and

833
01:07:19,519 --> 01:07:28,480
also God it is as act as
purists precludes and excludes multiple acts in God,

834
01:07:28,719 --> 01:07:33,360
those are mutually exclusive positions. No
Thomas will disagree with that. Yeah,

835
01:07:33,519 --> 01:07:36,400
and what I'm saying, And that's
that's why if they would, if

836
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,719
if they buck me from that,
so be it. But I'm seeing it

837
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,280
as again the builder of the house. That's their act. That's what they're

838
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,639
doing, and they're going to have
contained in it a lot of other things.

839
01:07:45,719 --> 01:07:50,000
God his one simple act is him
desiring his goodness. That because act

840
01:07:50,199 --> 01:07:54,760
is generated by the will, which
is the desiring apparatus, his desire is

841
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,039
for his goodness. And in bringing
that out, he's going to freely choose

842
01:07:58,639 --> 01:08:00,679
any number of things that are going
to bring that to fruition, and that's

843
01:08:00,679 --> 01:08:05,159
going to send it out into into
time. Is there acts leading up to

844
01:08:05,239 --> 01:08:12,400
now and future acts that still have
yet not happened. It's all contained desire.

845
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,239
Again, you're not answering the objection. I don't think you understand what.

846
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:17,279
I'm not trying to be a dick, but I do I do understand

847
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:21,399
objection. Can you tell me what
the objection is. Yeah, the objection

848
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:26,119
is that if these are distinct acts, how does that how does that marry

849
01:08:26,239 --> 01:08:31,479
up? Your analogy is to a
created thing that is not appropriate to God

850
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,319
himself. God is pure act.
Your analogy was, well, but we

851
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:39,119
have discoursive reasoning, and it's like
a building of a house, and there's

852
01:08:39,119 --> 01:08:43,000
a lot of different parts to it. That doesn't matter because that's just totally

853
01:08:43,079 --> 01:08:47,119
dissimilar to the thing in question,
which is a being which is unmixed with

854
01:08:47,239 --> 01:08:51,600
any potentiality and is strictly pure act. So the analogy doesn't answer the thing

855
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:56,279
that is in question. It's totally
dist It does though, because because I'm

856
01:08:56,279 --> 01:09:00,399
actually not saying that that that the
builder of the house is the sort of

857
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,359
standard way that now we're going about
it. I'm saying that someone who gets

858
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:08,079
really, really really good at building
the house comes closer, comes closer to

859
01:09:08,159 --> 01:09:11,800
the sense in which we're talking about
this, which is the one who's really

860
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,680
really good at building the house.
Well, you know what all those things

861
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:16,840
do? You understand that it would
be a mixed being. If God is

862
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,279
pure act and also has within him
multiple acts, that would be a mixed

863
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:24,960
being, Right, I do not
grant that. I do not grant that

864
01:09:25,039 --> 01:09:30,840
because in God it is one simple
act. All the other words, this

865
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:35,880
is a contradiction. Pure act means
there's not many acts. And now you're

866
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:40,720
saying, but God also has many
acts, which you describe as the effects.

867
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,520
I'm not talking about the effects.
No, but I'm not even just

868
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,840
talking about the effects. What I'm
actually then, God doesn't have multiple acts.

869
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,319
God is pure act. I'm I
think that I'm granting to you that

870
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:54,680
I'm not taking the line of reasoning
that you've heard from these other people.

871
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,119
Okay, So then I'll just say
I acknowledge that these are different acts,

872
01:09:59,039 --> 01:10:02,640
different you're all contained under the one, the one ultimate act. Yep.

873
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:08,239
So your fellow Thomas will then say
that that's a violation of divine simplicity.

874
01:10:08,279 --> 01:10:11,479
And you've now positive potentia in God. So maybe you're okay with that,

875
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,520
and that's great because that's moving in
the direction of orthodoxy. I mean,

876
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,760
do you think that God has knowledge
of the world that he didn't create?

877
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:25,479
Yeah, okay, and he chose
not to write yep. Okay, so

878
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:30,880
there's potency in God. Only by
I mean, I would say, I'm

879
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,479
sorry, only by analogy. It's
that it's that he can grasp it.

880
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:41,000
He has tamed under the one act. You can say by analogy, But

881
01:10:41,079 --> 01:10:43,359
that's just asserting your system. And
this is where I think we get to

882
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:46,560
the point of the pistemology issues,
because every time I have this discussion with

883
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:53,439
A Thomas, the debate ends up
being that an argument is asserting and stating

884
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:59,920
the system. So but by stating
this fall I tried to anticipate that that

885
01:11:00,199 --> 01:11:03,199
would be a roadblock. What I
am What I am saying is that the

886
01:11:03,319 --> 01:11:09,359
one simple act was before all time. It's eternal. The one simple act

887
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:14,119
is God desiring of him of himself, the goodness of himself. That's that

888
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:16,239
is the ad that's stating Thumism.
We I'm not trying to be a d

889
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:21,760
We know that we know that Thomism
teaches that God knows and sees himself as

890
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,079
is the end and he is the
good in the end. I know all

891
01:11:25,159 --> 01:11:28,439
that, right, I'm not I'm
not taking issue with whether you know what

892
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,319
Thomism posits about God's you know,
intellection of himself and all that. The

893
01:11:32,399 --> 01:11:38,159
point is that I don't understand how
asserting the system answers these objections or deals

894
01:11:38,159 --> 01:11:42,239
with the fundamental issues, especially when
we get to epistemology, like the first

895
01:11:42,279 --> 01:11:45,560
principles. Right, So, like
you were agreeing with me earlier on about

896
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:48,439
well, you know, it seems
like God should ground the system out.

897
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:53,079
And you know Thomas talks about God
is sort of like the ultimate being,

898
01:11:53,159 --> 01:11:55,880
necessary being, So why couldn't he
ground up the system? Well, because

899
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,159
we don't have the same epistemology.
And I would argue that pretty much all

900
01:11:59,239 --> 01:12:02,640
Roman says is wedded to I've never
seen anybody not be a classical foundationalist.

901
01:12:03,079 --> 01:12:06,880
So every Roman Catholic I've ever seen
pretty much has some form of that.

902
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:12,680
It's pretty much bound up with the
way Vatican One talks about the verifying things

903
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,680
through you know, going and looking
at evidences and church history. And I

904
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:20,960
mean that's why you guys always do
evidentialist apologetics. You always do classical argumentation

905
01:12:21,079 --> 01:12:26,039
from the five ways of the Suma. But that's all wedded to a certain

906
01:12:26,039 --> 01:12:30,880
epistemology that has to be kind of
made sense of first, right, unless

907
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,039
we want to just I'm not going
to grant your sister. So I argued

908
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:40,039
to you that it was putting the
metaphysical cart before the epistemic horse, So

909
01:12:40,159 --> 01:12:42,760
I want to know, you know, how do we know why should I

910
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:47,000
start with your first principles, like
the parapatetic axiom? Right, We're not

911
01:12:47,239 --> 01:12:50,359
We're not going to make any leeway
through that because I would, I mean,

912
01:12:50,399 --> 01:12:55,439
I would say the same thing that
I I the God. God presupposes

913
01:12:56,119 --> 01:12:58,800
that the intellect that any of this
stuff can happen. So the only way

914
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:00,920
that we can get to postine what
God is through God. You're talking about

915
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:14,079
God, what God I suppose I'm
I'm trying to approximate in my so Okay,

916
01:13:14,159 --> 01:13:16,399
but like again that's say, by
the way, Jay, these same

917
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:20,840
these same things come to you,
then these same things because if your argument

918
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,560
is that you yeah, yeah,
I get it. But I'll just say

919
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,600
to you that I'm not a classical
foundationalist, then you're not a Roman Catholic,

920
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,960
because that's pretty much that may that
may be if they if they issue

921
01:13:31,119 --> 01:13:35,800
the excommunication, then it'll formally be
the case that I'm not the Only way

922
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:41,800
to get excommunicated in Francis's Rome is
to like be traditional. So I don't

923
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:46,039
think you're going to get excommunicated.
I'm aban in that way. Well,

924
01:13:46,039 --> 01:13:48,840
I'm not trying to be averag.
I'm not trying to be but I'm just

925
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:55,039
saying the appeal to that as the
shutting down of a line of reasoning that

926
01:13:55,159 --> 01:13:59,079
to me seems solid. Though I
get it, the perfections of it can

927
01:13:59,159 --> 01:14:03,640
only lie in in the foundation being
God that presupposes everything else, not as

928
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:06,880
a condusion to it. I can't, by reason, get to the point

929
01:14:08,079 --> 01:14:12,039
of of claiming God. You're missing
the point that it's not about like red

930
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,399
abstracting and finding some sort of abstract
grounding or something like that. It's a

931
01:14:15,399 --> 01:14:20,560
point. The point is that really
divine revelation is the starting point. That's

932
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:25,039
the the that would be our first
principle. Right, So if we're going

933
01:14:25,119 --> 01:14:28,319
to cast out Tomism, then I'm
then I'm gonna have to say that now

934
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:33,279
you're beginning to violate the entire Roman
Catholic principle of starting with natural philosophy and

935
01:14:33,319 --> 01:14:36,399
natural theology. So in other words, if you admit that, you would

936
01:14:36,399 --> 01:14:43,399
be giving up natural theology because natural
theology is wedded to first principles natural philosophy.

937
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:45,680
Uh, I mean you were touting
the semicuntries and telays. This would

938
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,000
be to then toss it out,
So by the end of the conversation you're

939
01:14:48,039 --> 01:14:54,000
already tossing out this the scg right. No, no, I'm not.

940
01:14:54,279 --> 01:14:57,680
And what I would say to you
is that again, you don't understand the

941
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,399
doctrine the doctrine, hold on,
hold on, the doctor. You're not

942
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,359
understanding then, the doctrine of premotion. Because God has to move the intellect

943
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:08,760
in every single moment, He has
to support every single being in every single

944
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,960
moment of its existence. So I
address this anything that I'm doing, I

945
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:15,159
address this at the beginning. I
addressed this at the beginning when I said

946
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:20,159
that you're putting your metaphysical cart before
your epicentic course. So everybody in the

947
01:15:20,199 --> 01:15:25,239
Middle Ages argued from premotion and made
these kinds of arguments, and I understand

948
01:15:25,319 --> 01:15:30,199
that. But when you get to
the time of David Hume and Kant,

949
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,039
the question flips and we have to
be able to answer that objection. So

950
01:15:34,159 --> 01:15:38,520
we can't just rely on asserting systems
from the Middle Ages, as if that

951
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:43,760
constituted an argument. Maybe termism is
true, maybe Roman Catholic epistemologies is true,

952
01:15:44,079 --> 01:15:48,319
but it can't just rely on reasserting
medieval systems without addressing the specific argument

953
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:53,279
that's being made. This specific argument
is saying that I'm not going to grant

954
01:15:53,359 --> 01:15:59,119
you any of your metaphysical assertions until
you give me the epistemic principle by which

955
01:15:59,199 --> 01:16:01,560
you know those things to be true. Because every epistemic, every metaphysical claim,

956
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,439
is a knowledge claim and epistemic claim. So how do what is the

957
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:10,920
epistemic principle? And every Roman Catholic
believes in a form of classical foundationalism and

958
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:15,119
first principles, So so how you
so? So that would go against says

959
01:16:15,159 --> 01:16:19,760
you? Yeah, it says me, says you. Here, I'm telling

960
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:23,199
you, so, can you give
me a single I'm telling you that the

961
01:16:23,279 --> 01:16:28,119
foundation, I'm telling you that the
foundation is theistic revelation. There's no such

962
01:16:28,159 --> 01:16:30,159
thing as as You're missing the point. There is no generic theism. So

963
01:16:30,279 --> 01:16:34,399
Thumism relies on generic theism that doesn't
exist. There's no such thing as generic

964
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:38,119
God that we all believe in.
That's why in our last say anything,

965
01:16:38,199 --> 01:16:42,319
I didn't say anything about generic What
you keep saying God, And I'm asking

966
01:16:42,359 --> 01:16:45,399
you what God? You said,
the God, the God of the God

967
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:46,680
of Platonists, which no no,
no, no no no no no no

968
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,000
no Bye. Bye by revelation.
I believe that to be the divine trinity.

969
01:16:51,039 --> 01:16:54,680
So well again, now we've moved
away from Thumism. So I'm glad

970
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:58,199
that you don't want to maybe maybe, but why why does this have to

971
01:16:58,319 --> 01:17:04,079
keep bottlenecking the converse station? Where
moving from classical foundation? Because are you

972
01:17:04,119 --> 01:17:06,880
here to defend because alicism or not? I mean, what do you mean?

973
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,680
No, I'm here to try and
make sense of things. Okay,

974
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:13,479
well, but I mean I thought
we were. I'm not trying to be

975
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:15,800
rude, but I thought, like
you know, you wanted to defend Toism.

976
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:21,279
Correct, I mean as best I
can. Okay, So we can't

977
01:17:21,399 --> 01:17:26,960
have Tomism and transcendental argument for God
that tries to argue trinity. Those things

978
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,479
are mutually exclusive. They're not going
to work. I don't see why those

979
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:33,039
are mutually exclusive, because because if
the transcendental argument as a foundation is that

980
01:17:33,199 --> 01:17:38,079
theistic revelation is the starting point,
then I'm struggling to see how then we

981
01:17:38,199 --> 01:17:42,000
can and not other ones. Like
five minutes ago, you just said,

982
01:17:42,359 --> 01:17:44,319
get it. Fine, if it's
not Tomism, it's not told, then

983
01:17:44,359 --> 01:17:46,880
you you can't tout the SCG.
That's the starting point for the semicontrid In.

984
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,960
You just you five minutes ago you
said that was great. Now you

985
01:17:50,039 --> 01:17:53,279
got to throw it out. That's
wait, wait, I can't hold on,

986
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:57,600
hold on, I can't tout observations
that he makes throughout the SCG.

987
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,079
So now, now, if one
thing for the part of SEG, if

988
01:18:01,119 --> 01:18:04,720
I say one thing, if I
say one thing from the part from apart

989
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:09,800
from SCG, then I'm touting the
whole of it. Sounds like we can

990
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:14,720
get to an understanding about simplicity and
is one pure act. You're not understanding

991
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,119
systems, just how systems work.
The fact that there's things that are true

992
01:18:17,159 --> 01:18:20,800
in Tomism or the SCG does not
mean that the starting points of Tomism and

993
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,800
it's a pistemology and a system work. I'm saying that you would have fine,

994
01:18:26,239 --> 01:18:30,319
But that's where I'm at though.
I'm saying, I'm trying to take

995
01:18:30,359 --> 01:18:32,720
the true things okay, But you
just laid it out. You said there

996
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,960
can be true things about the system. So I'm saying, I'm not worried

997
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:41,039
about the system. I'm talking about
true things. But the debate is about

998
01:18:41,159 --> 01:18:45,800
systems, right that we we were
here to debate things like tag and natural

999
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,000
theology, you're gonna have to give
up natural theology is the point here.

1000
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:55,000
I don't think you want to do
that. What I'm interested in is your

1001
01:18:55,239 --> 01:19:00,479
argument for how reason works. I'm
interested in what is your argument for how

1002
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,840
the senses work in our material body? All of that, all of the

1003
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:09,119
stuff that you see, let me
phrase it, A lot of the stuff

1004
01:19:09,159 --> 01:19:13,880
that you see Aristotle and a Finess
say is in Maximus and is in John

1005
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,239
Damascus. So a lot of the
things. Just lay it out for me.

1006
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,279
How does how do? How does? I don't have a problem saying

1007
01:19:19,359 --> 01:19:23,840
that our sense that we abstract from
sense data, none of that. That's

1008
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,199
not the problem. The problem is
the epistemology is different. And if the

1009
01:19:28,199 --> 01:19:32,680
epistemology is different, this cancels out
how whole medieval classical foundational and starting point.

1010
01:19:33,039 --> 01:19:36,159
And if that's the case, that's
all that devastating for Roman Catholicism.

1011
01:19:36,239 --> 01:19:39,119
And you say, well, that's
that's what I agree. No, I

1012
01:19:39,159 --> 01:19:42,680
agree that would be devastating if that
is the case. So well, can

1013
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,680
you give me a single Roman Catholic
theologian, scholar, church person ever who

1014
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,760
says anything like what I'm saying or
disagrees with classical foundationalism. Is there any

1015
01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:56,680
of them? I've never seen,
so it doesn't exist, right, because

1016
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,199
we're going to be an ai chat
But no, I don't even I didn't

1017
01:19:59,199 --> 01:20:04,159
even know that. They all agree
with it in uniform. It's a it's

1018
01:20:04,199 --> 01:20:09,279
an outworking what's already been defined in
Romanism. Right, So again, like

1019
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,560
for example, clear, Wait,
is it clear what's been defined and what's

1020
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,680
not. I didn't know that that. I would think you would want to

1021
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:19,159
argue to me that it is because
you're Roman Catholic and at the point of

1022
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:23,479
the papacy. It's confusing to me, though, right, I can be

1023
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:26,600
honest, it's confusing to me.
I don't know what's defined what's not.

1024
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:30,079
I loved I heard the comment you
made once upon a time a few weeks

1025
01:20:30,119 --> 01:20:32,760
back, that can we get an
ex cathedral statement on ex cathedral statements?

1026
01:20:33,119 --> 01:20:36,840
I would love that. I would
love that. I don't I've never seen

1027
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,119
that. If that's what its job
is, I would I would agree,

1028
01:20:42,239 --> 01:20:44,560
I know, honestly, I would
agree. I would actually really like that.

1029
01:20:45,039 --> 01:20:47,600
So part of my question is,
how are we now saying that we

1030
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,079
actually do have these defined statements of
what Catholicism is. That would seem to

1031
01:20:51,079 --> 01:20:54,960
contradict that, and I'm actually more
in line with your with your other statement,

1032
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:58,880
which is that I think it's pretty
hard to navigate what's defined what's not.

1033
01:20:59,399 --> 01:21:02,399
So I don't get I get boxed
in to classical foundationism. Well again,

1034
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:08,840
so with everyone, with everyone in
the church, because to not go

1035
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:13,199
along with that would be to up
sat so many fundamental things. Right.

1036
01:21:13,279 --> 01:21:15,680
So in other words, okay,
but you see, there may not be

1037
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,720
there may not be. Quote I
from the chair of room ex Cathedral,

1038
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:26,840
say that you must now believe in
classical foundationalists of pistemology. The point is

1039
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:33,039
that classical foundationalism sums up like the
essence of scholastic ideas throughout the whole period,

1040
01:21:33,399 --> 01:21:38,920
including things like your doctrine of be
a tivic vision. Now it's not,

1041
01:21:39,239 --> 01:21:41,880
but I'm saying, like the intellect
does the highest faculty in man and

1042
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:45,359
so forth. That kind of goes
along with this. The parapatetic axiom goes

1043
01:21:45,399 --> 01:21:48,720
along with classical foundationalism as your epistemic
approach. So I don't need like an

1044
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:54,600
ex cathed I don't need that because
I don't need that. If you're the

1045
01:21:54,960 --> 01:22:00,359
outlier and no one else in your
Church teaches contrary to that. Yeah,

1046
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:02,000
yeah, I mean according to you. Again, here we're at that.

1047
01:22:02,119 --> 01:22:06,560
Actually, not according to you,
represent Roman Catholicism. If you can argue

1048
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:10,000
that there's a Roman Catholic and I
hope, well, if you can argue

1049
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,600
that there's a Roman Catholic theologian that
doesn't hold the classical foundational, I'm open

1050
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:15,760
to hearing that. I've never heard
of this because it would be so contrary

1051
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:19,399
to the system. How about how
about your boy? Right now, it

1052
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:24,279
seems to be that I'm holding to
it. Yeah, but you don't have

1053
01:22:24,359 --> 01:22:27,439
the liberty as a Roman Catholic to
just do whatever. You're bound by a

1054
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:30,960
vast network of dogmatic statements in a
system. Yeah, but I still have

1055
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:35,960
liberty as a person that supersedes it. Well, now it sounds like you're

1056
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:40,239
not interested in defending It's again,
I'm not trying to be rude, I

1057
01:22:40,279 --> 01:22:42,119
thought you. No, no,
not that, not that. All I'm

1058
01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:45,680
trying to do. What I'm trying
to do is get us through this the

1059
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:49,520
muck of these objections, so that
we can get to a place where,

1060
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:55,359
like you just said, you actually
don't disagree with Aristotle's with the Oriscotelian understanding

1061
01:22:55,399 --> 01:22:59,079
of taking an information through the sense
data to arrive at conclusions. The difference

1062
01:22:59,159 --> 01:23:00,560
for you, you said, is
that your foundations are different, and your

1063
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:05,479
foundations are theistic revelation, and I'm
saying that's my foundation. I also agree

1064
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:11,960
with the Arisitilian understanding of taking an
information through the senses to derive in an

1065
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,640
understanding. So now you either have
to tell me how that is, how

1066
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:21,680
theistic revolution would disqualify a rational argument, how those things connect. That would

1067
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:26,359
be nonsensical. I'm not going to
affirm things like the parapetic axiom is my

1068
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,680
first principle first, that's one example. That's why I chose that as the

1069
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,279
starting point, right right, So
my first principle is that it has to

1070
01:23:32,359 --> 01:23:38,119
be revealed from God, that God
is the source and foundation of all things

1071
01:23:38,359 --> 01:23:41,760
in whom we live and move and
have our argum. Nothing can be separated.

1072
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:44,399
Now you're moving into the direction of
what we would call natural revelation,

1073
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,840
and I applaud, I applaud the
movement. So let me no, thank

1074
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:53,359
you, thank you. So I'm
not offended by it. And Ali says

1075
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:57,600
the Orthodox Church does not make a
separation between natural and supernatural revelation. Natural

1076
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,319
revelation is known and understood fully in
the light of divine revelation. We might

1077
01:24:01,399 --> 01:24:05,960
say that natural relation is given and
maintained by God continuously through his one divine

1078
01:24:06,079 --> 01:24:11,239
divine act above nature. That is
why Saint Maximus Confessor, what's his one

1079
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:14,000
divine act? Wait, what's his
one divine act above nature? Right?

1080
01:24:14,079 --> 01:24:16,680
So Maximus teaches that God does know
himself by one divine act. That does

1081
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:21,840
not mean that all of God's acts
are identical. So Maximus also teaches that

1082
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:25,840
God does many actions. So we
do believe that God has one divine act

1083
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:29,000
by which he knows himself, but
that doesn't mean that his actions are identical

1084
01:24:29,079 --> 01:24:34,399
to his essence. Well, in
this case, his one act is identical

1085
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:41,119
to it because it is an eternal, single act, and so should inherent

1086
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:45,159
to him. So the quote is
not denying multiple actions in God. It's

1087
01:24:45,239 --> 01:24:48,880
saying that God does know himself by
one divine act. That's true. Maximus

1088
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:53,760
says that I don't disagree with that. That's not talking about that's not talking

1089
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:57,359
about whether God creates the world and
enters it by one divine act. That's

1090
01:24:57,479 --> 01:25:00,960
that's a different dispute, and Maximus
does not. It's going to be encompassed.

1091
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,119
It's going to be encompass in the
one should learn about somebody the theology

1092
01:25:03,159 --> 01:25:06,720
before you just state at the Thomas
position and state, well again, I

1093
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:10,640
didn't even finish the quote, right. This is why I say Maxews a

1094
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:15,439
Confessor does not posit an essential distinction
between natural revelation and the supernatural or biblical

1095
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:18,439
one. According to him, the
latter is the embodying of the formal of

1096
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:23,319
the former in persons and actions.
In other words, the content of scripture

1097
01:25:23,399 --> 01:25:26,680
is the same as the content of
Nature, which is the divine person of

1098
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:30,239
the logos. It's not saying that
God is produced to one act. If

1099
01:25:30,279 --> 01:25:32,640
you read Book one of John Damascus, for example, this is something Taylor

1100
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:38,680
Marshall does right where he goes to
a quote where John Damascus says that God

1101
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:42,199
has one divine act right by which
he knows himself and by which he creates.

1102
01:25:42,239 --> 01:25:45,760
And we agree with that because there's
only one God acting. So every

1103
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:47,960
action of God is proper to the
divine nature, which is simple and one,

1104
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:53,399
and thus it's one act that God
does. However, God also does

1105
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,880
multiple acts because he does different things. So it's two different contexts. And

1106
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:00,920
if you read the rest of book
one of John Damascus, as you get

1107
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,920
down to the bottom, he says
that God also does many actions. So

1108
01:26:04,359 --> 01:26:06,479
to take one quote, like you
were saying, oh, well, there's

1109
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:10,760
one act, so I guess it's
termism, It's not Tomism. He also

1110
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:14,880
says he also says God does many
actions that are different and distinct. For

1111
01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:16,960
example, the logi are not the
same thing as walking on water. God's

1112
01:26:17,279 --> 01:26:20,560
divine ideas are in him, and
they are many, and they're not the

1113
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:25,680
same thing as walking on water.
Those are two different divine acts different Yep,

1114
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:29,239
they're different things. Again, as
I've said, that's that's that you

1115
01:26:29,319 --> 01:26:31,279
want to be clear that you're not
works Well, I want to be clear

1116
01:26:31,319 --> 01:26:35,520
you're not a tomb according to you. According to you, Yeah, can

1117
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:40,640
you name a Thomas who says that
there's different acts in God. I don't

1118
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,960
need to name a Thomas. I
can go to him talking in the Suma

1119
01:26:44,359 --> 01:26:47,319
about the one simple act literally using
the analogy of the house builder. One

1120
01:26:47,399 --> 01:26:56,399
simple act does not mean that there's
objection Thomas. So you're saying Thomas teaches

1121
01:26:56,439 --> 01:27:00,680
there's many acts within God, within
the divine essence he says, they're all

1122
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,359
contained in the one simple act,
and then he elaborates the analogy of the

1123
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:08,880
house builder. But the analogy to
understanding, the analogy is to a created

1124
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:12,520
thing which doesn't match up to the
uncreated thing. And you're going to say,

1125
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:15,880
but there's an analogy based on emotion, there's an analogy based on the

1126
01:27:18,119 --> 01:27:23,039
analogia entis and all this kind of
stuff, and all that's based on the

1127
01:27:23,119 --> 01:27:29,399
first principle, right, the epistemology
that that there's a similarity between the first

1128
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:35,039
cause and his effects. Right,
I'm not following. So the argument that

1129
01:27:35,119 --> 01:27:41,119
you're making about the builder of the
house is based on an analogy to created

1130
01:27:41,199 --> 01:27:45,520
things. But the thing that we're
talking about is very totally, almost totally

1131
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:49,399
dissimilar to created things. That it
is dissimilar. Yeah, yeah, No,

1132
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:53,960
the analogy is that the analogy is
that as someone grows an understanding of

1133
01:27:54,039 --> 01:28:00,199
a thing, there their acts.
There's specific diverse acts get consolidated in the

1134
01:28:00,279 --> 01:28:03,520
purpose behind one single act. The
question is not I can use an example.

1135
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:08,920
You're missing I wos example. Let
me use an example modern culture,

1136
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:11,000
and you don't understand that, Kobe
Bryant, hold on, hold on,

1137
01:28:11,119 --> 01:28:13,000
let me. Hold on, let
me throw this one in there. Kobe

1138
01:28:13,039 --> 01:28:15,239
Bryant once said, I have two
moves. I go right or I go

1139
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:19,279
left. All right, this is
profound and to a Toomas this is actually

1140
01:28:19,359 --> 01:28:24,359
easy to grasp the profundity of what
he's saying. We've all watched Kobe Bryan

1141
01:28:24,399 --> 01:28:26,880
play. Does he only go right
or only go left? Is that his

1142
01:28:27,119 --> 01:28:29,720
only move? No? He has
step baps, he has crossovers, he

1143
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:31,840
has everything. But he has seen
it with such clarity that when he's going

1144
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:36,000
against a defender, every little thing
that he's doing amounts to him ultimately going

1145
01:28:36,119 --> 01:28:41,520
right or him going left. Again. This is again, I'm telling youstand

1146
01:28:43,319 --> 01:28:46,840
hit on it. You don't understand
that the analogy is not applicable to God.

1147
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,039
I know that you think that it
is, But it doesn't answer the

1148
01:28:50,079 --> 01:28:55,439
objection because the analogy is not Let
me finish, The analogy is not like

1149
01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:00,760
a created thing where there's multiple different
options and actions. The thing and self

1150
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:04,319
in question is one pure, simple, single act. So to make these

1151
01:29:04,359 --> 01:29:10,920
analogies to created things that are existing
in multiplicity and have a potentiality fails.

1152
01:29:11,399 --> 01:29:14,920
And that's why you keep making a
bridge between the created thing and the uncreated

1153
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:17,239
thing as if the analogy matches up. So that's when I start to say,

1154
01:29:18,159 --> 01:29:23,600
now I call into question the epistemic
principle because the way you describe God

1155
01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:27,640
is not like created things. So
I don't think this analogy matches up that

1156
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:30,239
you're making. So how do you
have a bridge? What's the epistemic justification

1157
01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:34,079
for the analogy itself? That's why
I went to epistemology, not to get

1158
01:29:34,079 --> 01:29:38,359
away from the question, but that
I don't think that in your system,

1159
01:29:38,399 --> 01:29:41,600
the way the Tomistic system, Catholicism, whatever you're trying to argue for,

1160
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:45,279
because it seems to have moved away
from Tomism into something else, Like I

1161
01:29:45,359 --> 01:29:49,039
don't think that there's an analogy that
like, I don't grant you the bridge

1162
01:29:49,279 --> 01:29:54,840
between the created and the uncreated.
So how do you know that the properties

1163
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:58,279
of created things can be applied?
Wait, you don't think there's a bridge.

1164
01:29:58,359 --> 01:30:00,920
Wait, you don't think there's a
bridge between the supernatural natural in your

1165
01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:04,800
What you just said, don't worry
about my system, Jane, don't worry.

1166
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,279
Hold on, Jane, don't worry
about my system. You're moving the

1167
01:30:08,359 --> 01:30:10,880
goal. You think you came with
a system, and now you've moved it

1168
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,600
to not have a system, which
is a little bit disingenuous. Hold On,

1169
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:19,199
hold on, We've we've had these. You noticed you came defending days

1170
01:30:19,199 --> 01:30:23,720
ago, and now you're not atomist. Even that, I said, let's

1171
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:28,119
talk about the trinity. I understand
it from a tomistic perspective. Right,

1172
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,800
that's the best I can do.
But let's talk about the trinity. That's

1173
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:33,079
that was the starting point of it, right, I don't think that there's

1174
01:30:33,279 --> 01:30:35,279
And then I brought up the Manu
paper. You said, I read the

1175
01:30:35,319 --> 01:30:38,199
Manion paper, and now it's like, okay, well, I don't have

1176
01:30:38,239 --> 01:30:40,880
a problem with any of that stuff. Well, the Manu paper is contrary

1177
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:45,079
to the autonism and pretty much every
Roman Catholic epistemologist I've ever seen. Yeah,

1178
01:30:45,159 --> 01:30:48,119
I didn't see it. I saw
him delineate. Bet you didn't see

1179
01:30:48,119 --> 01:30:53,600
it theistic epistemology and autonomous hold on, hold on, I saw him distinguished

1180
01:30:53,600 --> 01:31:00,359
between theistic epistemology and autonomous epistemology.
And then spend the paper deconstructing autonomous epistolology

1181
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:03,000
in all its forms really well,
and then getting to the conclusion we're saying,

1182
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:09,319
therefore we must insist on the theistic
You know, you know that I

1183
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:14,439
did not just argue there's no analogia
between creatures and God. I'm arguing I

1184
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:17,840
know that you don't think that.
I then then that was a disingenuous response

1185
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:21,199
when you said that, because I'm
asking me saying what, but what is

1186
01:31:21,279 --> 01:31:25,399
this? What is it that you're
doing? It seems to me disingenuous because

1187
01:31:25,399 --> 01:31:30,479
you don't think that there's no analogy
between the supernatural and Now on me,

1188
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,680
if I ask an objection, it
makes me there is either. Come on,

1189
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:39,239
if I ask, it's not disingenuous. It's because I know the flaw

1190
01:31:39,279 --> 01:31:41,680
in that system and I'm trying to
get to the point of it sure being

1191
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:47,439
disingenuous. So what's the basis?
Do you believe in analogia? And I

1192
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:51,239
don't know those words. So analogy
of being? It's fundamental toutonism, right,

1193
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:55,039
How do we know God by the
fact that the effects are like the

1194
01:31:55,119 --> 01:31:59,800
first cause? And I've even said
to you that again, I think this

1195
01:31:59,920 --> 01:32:03,600
is an insightful thing that actually bridges
to a lot closer to what you're saying.

1196
01:32:04,239 --> 01:32:06,800
The Tim Tim Gore and I have
talked about this at length that the

1197
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:12,960
enlightenment brings in the is aught distinction, and it's a it's a fallacious distinction.

1198
01:32:13,399 --> 01:32:15,800
I'm squarely in the camp that there
is ought is hold on. What

1199
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:19,920
this means by taking out that is
ought distinction as if there's some gap between

1200
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:25,399
them, hold on, it means
that what is is the thing that matters,

1201
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:29,840
what is right? And to me
that that squares with there being no

1202
01:32:30,399 --> 01:32:32,920
sort of gap between the natural and
the supernatural, that there is a continuum

1203
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:36,159
between it. Yeah, I agree
with that, but that's the missing the

1204
01:32:36,199 --> 01:32:40,560
point, man, It's the point
is not oh, but the point is

1205
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:43,239
that we actually agree on a lot
of these And so what's interesting to me

1206
01:32:43,359 --> 01:32:46,479
is, how then can we talk
about the the let's call it the proximate

1207
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:51,640
epistemology, not the foundational epistemology,
but the proximate epistemology of say, like

1208
01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:55,800
you said, you granted that you
think arisol is right about taking information in

1209
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:59,560
through the senses an abstraction and universal
right. So talking about that, what

1210
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,359
is that tell us about reason?
How it functions to the point, and

1211
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:05,239
then we can build up. But
then we can build up to the distinction.

1212
01:33:06,039 --> 01:33:11,520
We can build up to the distinction
between the divine intellect. Why he's

1213
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:15,159
one simple act, intends the end, and he contains within it all the

1214
01:33:15,199 --> 01:33:18,760
parts. So you want me to
grant the first principle so that you can

1215
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:24,039
lead me into the rest of what
still tomas And you're missing the whole point,

1216
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:28,640
the question of the isa. I'm
not saying grant the first paying Yes,

1217
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:32,920
you are. The distinction is not
there at too. Now, maybe

1218
01:33:33,039 --> 01:33:39,319
Hume's motivations were to destroy metaphysics,
and he kind of did that. It

1219
01:33:39,399 --> 01:33:42,720
doesn't matter. The argument stands on
its own or it falls on its own

1220
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:45,800
regardless of his motivations, right,
So that would be an ad hominem to

1221
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:47,079
say that, Oh, well,
Hume's a bad person, so I don't

1222
01:33:47,079 --> 01:33:49,520
care about his arguments. And a
lot of Ruman Catholics not saying you,

1223
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:51,600
but a lot of Room Catholics will
say that to me. All you're using

1224
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:55,680
Hume because you're a skeptic and you're
bad. You have bad motivations. You

1225
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:58,439
know. I can look at the
argument on its own merits. If I

1226
01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:01,479
begin with sense data, if I
begin with a parapetic axiom, it leads

1227
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:06,319
to Hume. That's the point.
So I don't believe in the isot distinction.

1228
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:11,800
I raise that objection to atheists.
That doesn't make me an atheist by

1229
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:15,520
using the objection, dude. But
so that's what you're confusing. So I'm

1230
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:18,880
not throwing out I don't think I'm
let me finish because you don't understand what

1231
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:23,920
I'm getting at that point is not
do I throw out causation? And do

1232
01:34:24,039 --> 01:34:26,760
I throw out tilos? And don't
you believe in tulos too? Jay?

1233
01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:30,520
You're you're believe in metaphysics. And
the point is, how do we justify

1234
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:34,039
the starting points the first principles?
And if it's not going to be the

1235
01:34:34,119 --> 01:34:38,840
Tomistic way, dude, everything I'm
saying Tim will tell you this, like,

1236
01:34:39,039 --> 01:34:42,680
you can't depart from First Principles and
Thomism, it would no longer be

1237
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:48,159
Taumaism. Yeah, Tim's not my
authority. I'm just citing him as somebody

1238
01:34:48,159 --> 01:34:55,439
would. I'm not saying that he
makes it know, but and he probably

1239
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,000
would, And trust me, I
hold a lot of respect for Tim,

1240
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:00,439
you know I I defer a lot
to him. By the way, if

1241
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:05,079
you if you want to ask Tim, we can talk about the multi days

1242
01:35:05,199 --> 01:35:10,680
long disagreement we have over predestination and
grace. So It's not like Tim and

1243
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:15,840
I are just lockstep on everything where
that whereas if he if he declares on

1244
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,680
something, I'm just you know,
book shut, Okay, that's what it

1245
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:23,479
is. This is not how it
works. I'd imagine it wouldn't work that

1246
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:25,640
way for you either. If I
said you, well, you know you

1247
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:28,960
can you can refer to Tim,
or you could refer to to to this

1248
01:35:29,119 --> 01:35:32,399
or that person contemporary, it wouldn't
it wouldn't end it. I went to

1249
01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:36,720
remind everybody in the chat, you
can uh send a super chat via the

1250
01:35:36,920 --> 01:35:43,279
stream labs functions. So stream labs
is how we do superchat. Yeah.

1251
01:35:43,319 --> 01:35:46,039
Again, I think that. I
mean it's it's I like the discussion,

1252
01:35:46,199 --> 01:35:50,720
but it just doesn't seem like I
think we're you're missing the point of a

1253
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:56,119
lot of what I'm saying, and
uh sure, I'm not trying. I

1254
01:35:56,159 --> 01:36:00,479
don't know how I stick it to
convey like. So, I'm I'm glad

1255
01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:03,039
that you're willing to like to question
tumism, but I just don't know.

1256
01:36:03,199 --> 01:36:06,359
So if if you're willing to question
thumism, is it a point where it's

1257
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:13,119
not really a point counterpoint thing and
you're just asking questions because it seems like

1258
01:36:13,159 --> 01:36:15,439
you are giving arguments and then you're
saying, well, I'm not really giving

1259
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:17,560
arguments for any position. I mean, it seems like the goalposts of mood

1260
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,640
because I didn't know what your position. Well, I hope, I hope

1261
01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:25,199
not I am. I am saying
here's how I understand it. I think

1262
01:36:25,279 --> 01:36:29,479
there's some profundity in some of these
understandings. Here's my articulation of what I

1263
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:32,640
understand. I am interested if as
you critique it and you refine it,

1264
01:36:33,039 --> 01:36:38,000
that draws me closer. I believe
you know the extent they're good critiques,

1265
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:41,680
which I've seen a lot of them
from you, that it draws me closer

1266
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:45,800
to a deeper understanding. Right.
Ultimately, that's my interest is that that

1267
01:36:45,039 --> 01:36:50,800
union with God. I I think
I'm saying that earnestly right. So for

1268
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:55,079
me, when I look at this
like like here would be my one liner

1269
01:36:55,399 --> 01:36:59,560
rebuttal to the essence energies distinction cause
And I know you don't agree on the

1270
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:01,079
act, but to me, I'd
say, okay, So if the one

1271
01:37:01,239 --> 01:37:05,199
simple act of God is desiring his
own his own goodness, and everything that

1272
01:37:05,319 --> 01:37:11,720
occurs thereafter in creation is contained within
that, then that's actually gonna start to

1273
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:15,319
be able to count for all the
myriad multiplicity of acts that we see.

1274
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:20,079
And so then to introduce the energy
essence distinction as the as the way of

1275
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:26,720
sort of communicating those myriad multiplicity of
acts, I'm gonna say, is actually

1276
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:31,159
going to be then unnecessary philosophically,
make it bad philosophy, and lead ultimately

1277
01:37:31,199 --> 01:37:34,159
to the derogation of God. That
would be to me, that's like the

1278
01:37:34,279 --> 01:37:39,960
most interesting proposition I have to make. But if it gets so sidetracked on

1279
01:37:40,279 --> 01:37:43,159
which system I am a part of
or which you know not, I'd actually

1280
01:37:43,279 --> 01:37:45,880
love to hear that get hashed out. Right. So I think that God

1281
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:50,399
is one simple act desiring his own
self, and within that one act that

1282
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:54,439
he sees with such clarity, it's
going to hold a multiplicity of acts.

1283
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:58,000
So those multiplicity of acts are still
going to take place. Walking on water

1284
01:37:58,079 --> 01:38:00,279
is different than him creating the world, different than all these other things.

1285
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,640
And so if we add an additional
direction, you're moving in the direction to

1286
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:11,039
differentiate the energy essence that we're adding
a superfluous distinction. Now, like I

1287
01:38:11,119 --> 01:38:13,479
said, this is this is a
more subtle point. But where I see

1288
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:17,479
it derogating the faith in God is
that because now even though you hold to

1289
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:20,439
his simplicity, you hold it in
a bracketed sense. And then there's this

1290
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:24,439
multiplicity over here, and so now
we have more and more things, and

1291
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:29,680
then before you know it, it's
like the Trinity is obvious in his revelation.

1292
01:38:30,159 --> 01:38:32,840
Somehow that as you said last time, that I am which identifies as

1293
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:38,680
his essences, I am he according
to Patmos or Patamos or Palamos, or

1294
01:38:41,239 --> 01:38:44,760
be familiar with some of the How
does he become tried even familiar with this

1295
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:46,600
tradition and you're already ready to sound
off on it. You don't even know

1296
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:48,960
who it is. I'm not trying
to be a no, no, you're

1297
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:56,840
right, And it's like I'm just
listening and I'm like, you have no,

1298
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:59,760
I don't even know what I don't
know what it is you have any

1299
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:03,399
already with the with the have no
idea Eastern the Eastern fathers the first say

1300
01:39:03,399 --> 01:39:11,159
a thousand years do? You very
very limited? So why why would you

1301
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:16,199
why would you think that like it's
appropriate then to think I'm going to solve

1302
01:39:16,239 --> 01:39:19,920
this with a lot of like well, I read Thomas here and I'm not

1303
01:39:20,039 --> 01:39:23,439
faulting you for trying to work it
through. But the way to work it

1304
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:28,039
through is not like speculating about how
to prop up the system that you have,

1305
01:39:28,279 --> 01:39:31,239
but to begin to read these people
like Basil and like Ceyl of Alexandria.

1306
01:39:31,319 --> 01:39:34,760
Let me give an example to make
this concrete again. What do you

1307
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:42,359
eat in the Eucharist if you don't
believe in the essen center distinction, the

1308
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:46,439
divine substance of God? No Roman
Catholic teaches that you eat the divine essence.

1309
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,039
Come on, dude, do you
know your Roman Catholicism? What?

1310
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:55,359
Yes? I do? Do?
They say the body? That's what they

1311
01:39:55,439 --> 01:40:00,199
say that the divine substance? No
Roman Catholic teacher. Right, So my

1312
01:40:00,359 --> 01:40:05,840
question is what's the divinity? It's
not the essence of God that you're eating.

1313
01:40:06,319 --> 01:40:09,600
Your church is already I'm not falling, I'm not following the question.

1314
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:14,000
This is where we get to the
essence introducetinction. It's it's defined at ephesis.

1315
01:40:14,079 --> 01:40:15,880
Man, it's in Cyril, right. So this is why you need

1316
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:17,840
to know those things before sort of
like trying to argue it or debate it.

1317
01:40:18,319 --> 01:40:23,119
Right, Cyril says, we don't
eat the essence of God and it's

1318
01:40:23,199 --> 01:40:28,560
not another creature. It is the
divine immortality and uncreated energies that deify the

1319
01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:31,319
Eucharist, which is the flesh of
Christ. So you're partaking of the uncreated

1320
01:40:31,439 --> 01:40:35,760
energies, according to Saint Cyril of
Ephesis itself. That's why when I ask

1321
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,840
you what you eat, you said
the divine essence. Yeah, no,

1322
01:40:39,199 --> 01:40:42,920
Romancheay teachers that you eat the divine
essence. You teach that it's a created

1323
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:46,399
substance, a created great I actually
said, the divine subcent Excuse me,

1324
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:49,319
it's a created accident in the soul. You don't eat the divine essence?

1325
01:40:49,399 --> 01:40:56,119
No, Romanchelly, teacher, is
that that I'm taking in the divine substance

1326
01:40:56,159 --> 01:40:59,680
that I'm nourishing, sanctifying. You
don't eat the divine essence. That's not

1327
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:02,720
your church is teaching. And I
go ask any Roman Cavolt okay. And

1328
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:08,439
my point is that this illustrates how
your system doesn't make sense and you need

1329
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:12,359
the essence centered distinction, which eis
solves us for you already. Right.

1330
01:41:13,039 --> 01:41:15,640
What I'm saying is that all the
things that you're talking about with with the

1331
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:20,920
energy distinction, well map onto the
right understanding of the divine simple ass So

1332
01:41:23,039 --> 01:41:27,159
everything it just blows over your head, no idea what we're talking about.

1333
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:29,800
I mean, you think that you're
eating the divine homes dude, but you

1334
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,520
you already said it that I have
to go read all these things at length.

1335
01:41:32,239 --> 01:41:35,560
So why would I Why would I
now jump back into it? Yeah?

1336
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:40,720
Why would I now jump back into
that same stream of conversation? Obviously

1337
01:41:40,760 --> 01:41:43,760
I'm gonna move on to the next
thing, because I'm granting you that I

1338
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:47,880
got to read all the tones on
all these Eastern thinkers in order to me.

1339
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:50,000
You could read a few of them
to begin, just to start out,

1340
01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:56,960
Yes, for example a couple For
example at Ephesus at Ephesis Cyril,

1341
01:41:57,039 --> 01:42:00,920
when he expounds ephesis, he explains
that it is not the divine essence that

1342
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:04,479
we eat in the Eucharist, because
you understand that nobody believes that your church

1343
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:09,319
does not teach you that you eat
the divine essence. Okay, it's already

1344
01:42:09,399 --> 01:42:13,359
dogmatized. I can read you the
statements if you want. That what's in

1345
01:42:13,520 --> 01:42:17,560
the soul and what you partake of
is a supernatural accident in the soul that

1346
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,359
is a creation. So you believe
that, right, right? No,

1347
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:25,079
that. I mean, that's that's
sanctifying grace. Yeah, I know that

1348
01:42:25,159 --> 01:42:29,000
it's nourishing my sanctifying grace. You
think that, so you think the divine

1349
01:42:29,039 --> 01:42:36,119
substance is a creature? Exactly?
You see the problem here? Sure?

1350
01:42:36,199 --> 01:42:41,159
Sure, but I'm saying that what
I'm getting in the Do you not understand

1351
01:42:41,199 --> 01:42:45,880
how entitative habit? Do you not
understand that you just contradicted yourself. You

1352
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:50,479
said you eat the divine substance.
You said it supernatural creation, when I

1353
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:58,319
would is the divine substance? That
is the divine substance a creature? Hold

1354
01:42:58,359 --> 01:43:01,479
on it is? No? Okay? So no, I just said no,

1355
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:09,399
so you eat the what the divine
essence? No? Apparently not right.

1356
01:43:10,359 --> 01:43:15,239
So your church has dogmatized that it's
a supernatural creation, so that the

1357
01:43:15,319 --> 01:43:18,239
grace itself is a creature, So
it's not so you understand that itself shows

1358
01:43:18,239 --> 01:43:21,840
you it's not that. Yeah,
that grace is grace is a created effect.

1359
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:26,760
No, grace itself, not the
effects, the grace itself. What

1360
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:32,279
are you partaking of? You have
to have the essence inergy stinction, and

1361
01:43:32,399 --> 01:43:36,479
it's already an ephesis, is the
point. Cyril has already explained this no,

1362
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:40,079
what see what what? What I
would what? I would understand it

1363
01:43:40,159 --> 01:43:43,439
as here, here's what I would
understand it as God in his one symbol.

1364
01:43:43,760 --> 01:43:47,279
Don't you want to understand a lot
of other things? Are you above?

1365
01:43:47,359 --> 01:43:51,000
I want to understand this is?
This is the problem? Hold on,

1366
01:43:51,119 --> 01:43:55,880
hold on? Is what you want
to understand it as that's the point.

1367
01:43:56,399 --> 01:44:00,520
Yeah, there are going to be
times where God interacts with creation within

1368
01:44:00,239 --> 01:44:05,079
that header of his one simple act
right and those things he's going to show.

1369
01:44:05,159 --> 01:44:09,199
What what Thomas would say is that
it's it's not any change in him

1370
01:44:09,239 --> 01:44:13,119
because God is present and there to
all things. He says that he's in

1371
01:44:13,239 --> 01:44:15,760
all things by his power, his
presence, and his essence. So if

1372
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:19,479
he's in all things by those by
those three, by his power, directing

1373
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:26,079
things by his presence, having all
things open and bear to him, hold

1374
01:44:26,079 --> 01:44:30,000
on, hold on. If he's
in that way, hold on, hold

1375
01:44:30,039 --> 01:44:33,039
on. If he's there in that
way, then anytime there's a creative effect,

1376
01:44:33,399 --> 01:44:36,640
it's not going to necessitate a change
in him, but a change in

1377
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:45,319
creation already contradicted yourself. So now
you realize you're saying that substance earlier,

1378
01:44:45,359 --> 01:44:48,119
and now it's a creative effect.
It can't be better because you asked me.

1379
01:44:48,239 --> 01:44:51,399
Yeah, let's back up, you
asked me, Do I not recognize

1380
01:44:51,399 --> 01:44:55,960
that I contradicted myself according to what
you're saying? And no idea. It

1381
01:44:56,079 --> 01:44:59,319
shows that you guys follow what you're
saying, right, so you reject EPHISI

1382
01:44:59,359 --> 01:45:03,079
says the point because is not trying
to. But it's a clearly expounded for

1383
01:45:03,239 --> 01:45:06,720
you already by Cyril in the Two
Letters to six Census where he talks about

1384
01:45:08,039 --> 01:45:13,079
the Eucharus being uncreated immortality that you
partake of quote not the divine essence.

1385
01:45:13,239 --> 01:45:16,920
So it's already been explained. But
you guys follow a second millennium guy that

1386
01:45:17,039 --> 01:45:20,319
tells you that is I call what
you're saying. Yeah, And that's just

1387
01:45:20,399 --> 01:45:25,239
one example. I just chose the
Ucharus as a easy reference point in the

1388
01:45:25,279 --> 01:45:27,880
two Letters to sixth sense, especially
this. I think it's the second letter

1389
01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:31,279
where Cyril explains this. Anyway I
am gonna do. So hold on,

1390
01:45:31,359 --> 01:45:33,920
we're gonna have to have another discussion
because I have to go. I got

1391
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:36,680
Burmus coming on here in a little
bit. We got another podcast we're gonna

1392
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:41,079
get into. Yeah, we're gonna
get into Jeff Stein MC Effrey pretty soon.

1393
01:45:41,119 --> 01:45:43,720
I've got a couple of super chats
here. Do you want to any

1394
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:46,600
any closing ideas or I thought you
have. No, I just want to

1395
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:50,119
say that I appreciate you, you
know, having me on. I think

1396
01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:56,399
what my final parting shot would be
that there are gonna be times where my

1397
01:45:56,720 --> 01:45:59,920
my language is sloppy, as you
seem, you know, as you well

1398
01:46:00,079 --> 01:46:02,239
pointed out, and so to me
when I don't all of a sudden fold

1399
01:46:02,359 --> 01:46:04,520
right there, it's sort of a
granting that, Yeah, if I get

1400
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:08,479
down to the core of it,
I think I'm understanding one piece of it,

1401
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:11,359
right, so we have sanctifying grace. It's nourishing that in saying maybe

1402
01:46:11,359 --> 01:46:15,359
another piece. But I could have
used, you know, certainly a term

1403
01:46:15,439 --> 01:46:17,680
that that, by the way,
is sloppy from an intellectual perspective, so

1404
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:23,439
to my own detriment having done that. But what I'm trying to do here

1405
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:28,520
in this conversation is present what I
think our good ideas, interested in your

1406
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:30,920
takes on these things, your rebuttals
to them, your critiques, and not

1407
01:46:31,119 --> 01:46:35,600
just the critiques of what I'm because
I do appreciate it. Next time,

1408
01:46:35,600 --> 01:46:38,880
I'm happy to if we're gonna have
another chat. Maybe me and you and

1409
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:43,279
Tim can have a big passion it
or something. I'm happy to address more

1410
01:46:43,399 --> 01:46:45,600
so what my position would be.
But I took it like you were coming

1411
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:49,119
to present tomism and we kind of
moved away from that, which is fine.

1412
01:46:49,159 --> 01:46:53,399
It doesn't bother me. Okay,
Well, I apologize that that it

1413
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,680
didn't seem clear on that, and
you certainly have no you know, I

1414
01:46:57,239 --> 01:47:00,359
appreciate you having me on. There's
no obligation to have me back on.

1415
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:02,920
You got a great, big audience. I love it. I'm a part

1416
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:05,159
of it, you know. So
you have a do you want me to

1417
01:47:05,239 --> 01:47:08,880
link your Twitter? I know you're
on Twitter. Do you have a channel

1418
01:47:08,920 --> 01:47:10,920
on? No, I don't.
I don't tweet, but my I mean

1419
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:15,199
my substack. I have a AJ
Barker link is my substack, and I've

1420
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,399
I've got a short novel that I'm
dropping here at the end of the month

1421
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:23,760
that I will do serially in parts. So yeah, I mean that I'll

1422
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,359
link all that before I check it
out. But yeah, if you're watching

1423
01:47:26,399 --> 01:47:29,039
this later, I'll have all of
AJ stuff linked in the show description.

1424
01:47:29,199 --> 01:47:31,520
Verrella second since twenty five bucks and
says, do you have a video or

1425
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:38,760
Licener reviews either of the following Soviet
America by William Foster or the nineteen fifty

1426
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:42,439
three book Communist Activities in New York, and it's an area of hearings.

1427
01:47:42,560 --> 01:47:45,439
No, I've not heard of those
books, but they sound interesting. I'm

1428
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:49,000
always in the Cold War stuff.
DC would working five dollars. I'm enjoying

1429
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:51,520
your Red book, Jay, very
interesting topics. Thank you so much.

1430
01:47:51,640 --> 01:47:56,119
DC appreciate that. Cerrial up on
number ten dollars. I'm back from a

1431
01:47:56,159 --> 01:47:59,159
long hiatus. I hope you're doing
well. Do you plan to have another

1432
01:47:59,199 --> 01:48:02,279
event or talking Ashville anytime soon?
I just looked to Jamie Kennedy today.

1433
01:48:02,319 --> 01:48:05,039
He wants to do a an LA
event, so I don't know if we'll

1434
01:48:05,079 --> 01:48:08,439
do a Nashville event. He wants
to try to do that. In March,

1435
01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:11,119
Tim and I were talking about trying
to set up a national event,

1436
01:48:12,319 --> 01:48:15,279
and then we got busy with going
to Italy for three weeks, and then

1437
01:48:15,319 --> 01:48:18,840
I got super sick from that.
So I still want to try to make

1438
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:23,159
the national thing happen. What we'll
just see, but I'll keep that in

1439
01:48:23,199 --> 01:48:25,000
mind. Cyril, thank you for
that. Super chat. Guys, if

1440
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:28,159
you want to sport the show.
Do so VI super chats through stream labs

1441
01:48:28,199 --> 01:48:30,920
one loves since ten dollars and says, is the act identical to the essence?

1442
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:34,560
If so, does the essence have
any array? I don't know what

1443
01:48:34,680 --> 01:48:39,439
you mean by I know what that
means. Does the act become an array

1444
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:44,479
when it interacts with creation? So? I think some Thomas argue that God

1445
01:48:44,640 --> 01:48:47,560
is absolutely simple, and he knows
himself by one single act, and then

1446
01:48:48,079 --> 01:48:53,880
when he creates that multiplicity is a
feature of the created order, and that

1447
01:48:54,039 --> 01:48:58,479
somehow in God there's multiplicity. But
not really, because also the divine ideas

1448
01:48:58,520 --> 01:49:02,960
are synonymous with the absolutely simple essence. So I don't believe that that problem

1449
01:49:03,079 --> 01:49:06,880
or distinction is over resolved. Our
friend here has a different approach to that

1450
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:12,439
which you already heard. If you
want to, you super chatted pretty late,

1451
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:15,199
so maybe you want to go back
you can hear his account of that.

1452
01:49:16,039 --> 01:49:20,640
Guys, I want to remind you
too that we have the The show's

1453
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:26,319
sponsor is my favorite based red pill
company, tonkat Alie. Go get that

1454
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:30,079
Tonkat one hundred. Use the promo
code J fifty to get fifty percent off

1455
01:49:30,159 --> 01:49:31,479
all of those awesome products. Of
course, as you guys know we have

1456
01:49:31,920 --> 01:49:39,640
the chad Mode, which is your
excellent non toxic pre workout. It's I

1457
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,319
have to be honest, like it
gets me too ramped up. I can't

1458
01:49:42,359 --> 01:49:45,520
take it. I gotta I gotta
do like little doses of chad Mode.

1459
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:47,640
So be sure and headed at Chalk
dot Com use the promo code j fifty

1460
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:53,000
fifty percent off all those Chalk products. Uh and again, my favorite is

1461
01:49:53,039 --> 01:49:56,720
the Male Vitality Stack that they have
up on the front there. It includes

1462
01:49:56,920 --> 01:49:58,960
the Action two point zero, I
think, the ton kat Elie and the

1463
01:49:59,079 --> 01:50:01,640
chad Mode pre workout, So go
get those products. Thanks again to AJ

1464
01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:05,920
for coming on guys. I will
be with Burmas tonight. I got to

1465
01:50:05,960 --> 01:50:09,960
figure out if if we got to
do it on Rock Fin, it might

1466
01:50:10,039 --> 01:50:14,760
be too spicy for YouTube because because
Burmas is very studied in the the jeff

1467
01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:17,760
Stein McAffrey stuff. I've gone way
deep down that rabbit hole in the last

1468
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:23,359
few days. In fact, I'm
about halfway through Whitney Webb's book, So

1469
01:50:23,800 --> 01:50:27,000
I don't know if we can pull
that one off on YouTube. It might

1470
01:50:27,119 --> 01:50:30,399
have to be over on Rockfin.
We'll see, but regardless, I will

1471
01:50:30,439 --> 01:50:34,880
either be here in one hour with
burmas or over on rockfin Aj. Thanks

1472
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:38,960
again for coming on. We'll do
another chat in the near future. I

1473
01:50:39,039 --> 01:50:41,840
appreciate you handling it like a chat. You didn't spurg out, you didn't

1474
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:44,840
get mad. We got heated,
but it was still fun. Yeah,

1475
01:50:44,920 --> 01:50:49,239
yeah, how men should do it. I feel absolutely yeah. I told

1476
01:50:49,319 --> 01:50:54,079
my buddy I was like, this
guy seems more like an Aquinas, like

1477
01:50:54,760 --> 01:50:59,680
like a like an Aquinas frat bro, which is better than the like the

1478
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:02,560
bros. Right, So like,
yeah, I'm sure the glasses and like,

1479
01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:08,279
well, right, no, there's
no I don't detect any soy physiognomy

1480
01:51:08,359 --> 01:51:09,680
pass, so we're good to have
the check