Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willish, your host, and we have a great guest for you this evening. We have Timothy Brigham and he is a He is a former professor. He has his PhD in psychology from the University of Georgia and he's actually been involved in the SCU, which is the Scientific Coalition for UAP studies. And I've talked to a number of people. There's some great people when that involved in that, and so it's going to be very interesting his take on the phenomenon and what it actually leaves in the wake after people have had, you know, these encounters. So I'm excited to talk to him about that, and well you're well along. Awaited movie by James Fox, The Phenomenon has been released today and as you will see if you watch it, it does live up to the standards of James Fox great work and if you are actually newish to the UFO field, this is one flick you're going to not want to miss. And I would suggest to at this time to order it on if you're going to buy it because of the extras. If you're going to buy it and you don't care, that's fine. You can buy it at Amazon Prime, Femo or Voodoo. But if you want the extras right now, you want to go to either Apple TV or Femo, because those are the two that are definitely given the extras. Something got clogged up somewhere and some of the extras aren't getting out to people that bought it on Amazon anyway. I want to thank everyone who listens to the show, and I also want to thank everyone behind the scenes. We have a active Facebook page at Facebook dot com slash podcast ufo, so check it out over there. We're actually simulcast over there, and this is the first night we're simulcast over on Twitch as well. I'm not even sure. I wasn't able to pick out a category there, so I don't even I'm not even sure if anyone even see it there, but it's going to be over there anyway. And I do want to thank all the people that support the show. I could not do this without your help, and anyone can support the show for two dollars or more a month. You can find that that Patreon link over at podcast ufo and at podcast ufoy there check out the latest blog. We have blogs every week by our great author, Charles Lear and This one is titled Edward J. Rupolt and the UFO Myth. It kind of delves into Rupolt's changing position on the UFO topic. It's extremely interesting, very interesting gentleman involved in blue Book. And so Charles is also, as I've mentioned a number of times, he's doing an audio blog each week. You'll find that in the podcast feed wherever you listen to the podcast. It's also over on YouTube. So we are taking calls as usual the last half hour of the show, and if you have any questions in your in chat, please do put them in caps so I catch them. It's always good to stay on the topic we're on. And before I forget, I just wanted to let everyone know next week we have Jan Aldrich, longtime UFO researcher, on, and the following week we have James Fox kind to be talking about his new movie. So without any further await, we will welcome our guest. Welcome to the show, Tim Kai Martin, thanks for having me on today. Yes, thanks for thanks for being on. I've listened to your show. You you're I want to say your presentation on the UFL Congress this year. I thought it was fascinating, so I'm really glad you you decided you'd be on this show. Well, thanks, I appreciate it. Um I did. That was a great experience doing the UFO Congress talk. I try not to do those kinds of things too routinely. I don't make a full time living at UFOs or anything like that, but I do occasionally like to, you know, step out and take a look at what's going on, specifically from my area of interest being the human component of the psychology of what of what we call anomalous experiences typically involved. So, um, you know, I have a long history of being involved in you oos, even before I got into psychology and got my doctorate degree. But um, you know, let's well, let's talk about so what what? What? What made you gain a fascination with a topic. I was actually, oddly enough in the I guess, the right place at the right time. I lived in outside golf Breeze in Pensacola Beach across the bay from Ed Walters and the eighties when he started doing his his UFO polaroid photos, that became, you know, a major UFO wave in the United States. So I grew up keeping an eye on that in the the late eighties, early nineties, and eventually kind of as a youngster even got involved with the local mouf on chapter and and from there that that really kind of fueled my interest in human psychology, you know, and went on to achieve a graduate degree, and I still kind of maintained an eye on the topic. So and did you ever actually have a sighting while you were there yourself? I did once I had. I saw what became known as the Gulf Breeze red light. It was an object red and obviously that would flash on for a few seconds, uh, sometimes longer. I saw it for about three seconds over the bay, actually over the Gulf of Mexico. It appeared to come on to me. I could not distinguish it with just that brevity from whether it was some kind of flare or something like that. It did, you know, in the direction of a military installation, but it was definitely interesting, you know, to see what was described generally if it had been you know, a more extended sighting is what typically people described down there. So, uh, it does seem to be very different from what ED described, which is a problem I always had with the case in general, the red light that the other witnesses in the area described and the object that ED described and allegedly photographed don't seem to have a lot of similarities in my opinion, But there was some controversy there. I'm sure you've probably heard about that one of them. Now, maybe I'm getting this wrong. Let me know, if you know this story that someone purchased his house and above the garage and the insulation, they found, um, the model of a UFO that was actually pictured right, Um, a couple of years after the original incident, I believe a reporter went to the house which was newly purchased that ED had had the sightings in, and conveniently, I think, directed the new occupants to go upstairs and look in the attic and they did find a model which was purported to be of the you know, the same thing I had photographed the dating And actually, if I remember this correctly, I'm not sure that I do, But there were there were the models made of materials that actually had date stamps on them that occurred after the original photographs occurred. So um, if you know, there's no way that model itself could have been used in but it is a you know, it's an interesting case. Um, especially given I think the the the local military involvement had had previously been involved in psychological operations, you know, to have this object or this this red light which is which is frequently in the skies following photographs being released to the public, I find possibly more than coincidental, you know. But m wow, I never heard that part exactly about them the dates not lining up, and how about that. Wow, yeah, that's that's really baffling, that whole whole thing. And do you know how many years that lasted totally around the I know, I think I want to say eighty seven started the the original ED photographs. I know, for at least five years. When I was, you know, in the Closer in nineteen ninety, there were still an active group of people that literally almost every night we're searching for the for the object in the sky, sky watching. So um, you know, at least another end of the early nineties, there were people actively still on the hunt and golf breeze, you know. So and did that what did what did the common thing um idea the skeptics had on what they were seeing, like planes offshore or something. Typically, the explanation for Ed's photographs is that the original photographs were hoax. That's a common skeptical explanation. Bruce mcabee, as you probably know, has done some analyzes of Ed's photos and of the red light UM the images and such of the red light, and he seems to feel that that Ed did not fake the photographs. There's been contrarian views to that. Um, you know, the the red light object. With my point in being there was that that does seem to be something people definitely saw. It was objectively there. The explanation for what it was and whether it actually matches what Ed saw is something that's a little more problematic. I think um Ed never described anything resembling that from what I recall in his actual encounters. But you know, um, there's still people in you know, in the area today reporting UFOs. So it's definitely, for whatever reason you want to take it as a hot spot, no remains to be a hot spot. There was someone that had claimed at one time that um mcabee was given a big check. Did you write that one too? I did, and I don't I have a great I think Rus a wonderful professional. I don't have any negative thing to say about him. He did work, I know, he wrote part of the foreword, I know for for his book. I don't know what, you know. I'm assuming there probably would be compensation of all for doing work for someone in forms of writing forward. I don't think he ever received anything directly for any of his analysis of the you know, for move On and for a few foes and so forth. I don't think he ever received any kind of payment for anything like that. So I don't find that to be a very convincing convincement actually against the analy I actually asked Bruce when he was on this show about that whole thing, and he did. He did kind of explain it in that in that type of way you're mentioning. But I mean, that is another one of the things you hear out there, like it can't be legitimate because of this and that I'm not right, Yeah, And I'm not an optical physicist by any means, of course, and I don't prefer to be. But uh, Bruce, is analysis of the of the red light objects seemed to indicate from what I can grasp from this is they don't seem to show the same characteristics that like a railroad flare or something pyrotechnic like that would have um, how similar it is to that as opposed to let's say, an LED light source or something else. And that's beyond my area of expertise, but my um, you know, what I saw appeared to be something that flamed, let's put it that way. And you know, you can see in many of the Gulf breeze videos that stuff falls off the bottom. Whether it be larger objects that are being emitted, or whether it be something that's burning and falling into the ocean or the gulf below, it's hard to tell, but there do seem to be indications of things like that going on. So so yeah, you kind of think of flare in a way when you think of things coming off the bottom. But there are some really unusual like not flare flares that are also dripping something which is really bizarre. And there's been a few that have you know, for instance, the Ryndall shrom forest. Charles Hult was saying, it looked like molten lava was dripping off of this thing right right, and nobody can find any any trace of it afterwards. And then of course if we do, do we know what we're looking for? If it's just molten you know, slag, what are we gonna what should we expect to find from that? I don't know. It's a little beyond my area of physical sciences, but I don't know what you can get from slag like that. Yeah, before we go into like the UFO cases where you know people it's changed their lives or whatever, do you also go into other topics of what people are claiming they're seeing paranormal etc. Um. My interest is kind of broadly in anomalies in that sense, So I think that if I understood your rust the question correctly, I'm also interested in people who have reported near death experiences, people who have reported a variety of anomalous stuff, right. Um. More generally, my background was in neuroscience and judgment and decision making kind of more formally and graduate school and so forth. But more broadly, I'm interested in Ungian psychology and kind of how how things like UFOs and how anomalous experiences are described in terms of a personal narrative, right what it is that happened to the person. Um, that's kind of been my my my area of focus. Right Um. Now you just mentioned color young are young as you said? Now? He he actually did he do some writing on what they call flying saucers back then, right he did, right has probably most most famous work there. Um flying saucers a modern myth of things seen in the sky, which is of course translated from the original. Uh. But the term myth there is not used to necessarily um indicate that UFOs don't have a physical component. Um. He meant myth in the more kind of purely psychological, since that UFOs tell us about things about ourselves, right, both as a society and as individuals, if we can listen, and maybe I think, but you knows, as you mentioned, kind of going back to what I talked about at UFO Congress, he did definitely have changing views on UFOs, like all of us who have been in this for a long time, I think, which is healthy. He did discount the explanations of Donald Menzel for those who familiar with UFO history, kind of predating even Philip Class with the explanations of optical illusions of radar and being you know, just a rohneyus things like that, So he pretty much discounted though he directly said he discounted these kinds of explanations. So he did not see that there was an extremely simple explanation there. But he also some of you may be familiar with kind of an older idea that he adopted for a while that UFOs could be some kind of space insects. Right, there could be some kind of physical the large beings with metallic exteriors that float around in the upper atmosphere. Right, So he along with his interest in esp and how that might relate to synchronicity and things like that, he was he was definitely open to these these unusual claims and unusual ideas. Wow, I was unaware about the upper atmosphere, kind of like Venus might have possibly it might have possible life in the upper atmosphere. But um, I do remember like someone that had a theory about like sort of like jellyfish in the upper atmosphere, you know, beings like that. I know, even John Keel, I think, you know, kind of promoted that idea for a while. I don't know the original Maybe that's it, I think didn't eventually even um Kenneth Arnold eventually adopted that for a while as an explanation I think for what he may have seen, which I always found unusual, that it could be some kind of organism that flies around in the atmosphere. Um, at least that's that's what I seem to recall. Yeah, yeah, but you know, the structured object, like you know, what I saw was a disc, and you know, I saw the old fashioned disc as they say, you know, now it's an orb or a triangle. A lot of people are seeing most people, it seems it seems like that more people are seeing triangles. And then there's objects. I think, I'm not sure. It just seems like they're really on the rise. And I think that's also interesting that the type of craft seems to have changed over the years, right, And that's gets into the whole kind of question many of us have about UFOs. They do seem over time to mirror what's reflected in the society of the time. If we talk about airship sightings, we talk about you know, of course, with more modern sightings it's the extraterrestrial or interdimensional explanation. But you know, if you look back at airship sightings, hey, they were described as objects with propellers on them, literally being elevated into the air by propellers. Whether that's an erroneous description by a witness or that's actually the form that the phenomenon takes to be acceptable to the person that us it. I don't know, that's that's I think an interesting question which some people have kind of hinted at that idea. So do you think they're there? I'm sort of feeling like there's a interaction and what people kind of developed that they're seeing is that that that'd be my that my um my intuition. Let's say, I'm still trying to kind of coming to grasp with how that exactly works, but there does seem to definitely be an interplay between the witness and the external stimulus, whatever that may be. I mean, we even we have plenty of cases where witnesses described feeling as if the entire event was for them, right ye, getting a sense of intelligence from an object, as if you know they're being watched, or things like that that that you would not seem to expect from just seeing an I mean, we wouldn't say that for a seven forty seven I use that example for we wouldn't assume the pilot is directed their their attention towards us. UM. So if that if that answers what you're but you know, when we try to look at things more, um, a more symbolic level what some of these things represent. Um, it becomes difficult because you sound as if you're interpreting this as a purely psychological thing, right, whereas when when it does seem to be there's an interplay between whatever this thing is and the witness, it's really hard to kind of grasp where that where that occurs. It does definitely seem to be an interactive thing, right that the phenomenon objectively exists and some physical that leaves physical traces. It does appear on radar at times, but it also has these non physical characteristics where it can disappear in front of a person. You know, these these these um, these kinds of behaviors that don't fit in with what we'd expect from a physical object necessarily, almost similar to if we talk about ghosts and Poulter guys, right, they almost fit fit more easily into those kinds of physics, if you want to say that, right, Yeah, Well, a couple of things observations. One of them is you just mentioned that, um, a number of people or people sometimes think that it's kind of directed at them. And I can tell you so many people that I've talked to on this show, and even off this show. Um, you know, I was speaking with someone that's very well known and uh he basically not not I mean in the UFO field, but also in another industry. And he was basically saying that this object came down. He actually has some really good footage that I'm trying to get from him of this and coming down. He said, it came down, you know it was it was it was signal signaling to me, he said, which is really and you know he's not the only one. A lot of people, Um, there was. There's a long time UFO researcher has been around forever. He lives in Hawaii now, Ted Row who was on this show, and um, likes to take you know, a real solid scientific look at things. And he basically said the same thing. When he was in Oakland driving along, he saw this object and he knew that it was, you know, putting itself in front of him for him to see him, right, And you know, then you have to question they must want to be seen because they're certainly not hiding, and you know they have lights, a lot of them have lights. Whatever they are, right, it becomes almost I think Eddie Bullard has talked about this uh shamonic initiatory journey innocence, right, This experience of interacting with this unknown thing and then coming back to your society, sorry my dog, and explaining that in your culture and to your to your social circle. Right, it becomes a very much a journey that that that does have have correlates with what we typically talk about a shamanic journey and so near death experiences. Right. Eddie's done a lot of work discussing that, and I think it's really really insightful. Of course, Ballet has noticed a similar thing. These these seem to be experiences more how can I phrase this? Almost more that the experiences of the should be of interest as the external stimulus, if that makes sense. Maybe what they're made of is is important in its own sense, but not as important when we consider the meaning, right, Um, is the actual intention or the whole point of this for people to have these experiences? I mean, I don't know, that's what it sounds like the way some people describe it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's all fascinating. And that's why I like to have people like you on the show with a different, you know, a perspective on what these things are because, as I say many times, I have no idea what's going on, less of an idea in nine years, right, you know, which is a healthy attitude, because I think anybody in and UFOs or flying saucers as as I still like to call it, that promises answers probably have the least available, but you know, they're they're definitely does seem to be an impact in the lives of the witness that might almost to me supersede the UH. I don't want to discount things like physical exams of landing cases and things like that. Those are obviously important, but to kind of look at it from a more social or psychological perspective as well, and what this actually means for the individual. That seems to be the only really lasting mark that some of these things have left is in the people that they've touched, right in many cases at least, So how does something how do you think something like that works with when there's a mass sighting, you know, like many many wars, right right, Well, it you know, it's it comes down I think in one sense to talk about it, and I mentioned this before we got on what's been termed high intensity and low intensity sightings. I think you could also kind of change the name of that to high impact and low impact sightings. People seeing a light in the sky at night they can't identify, may or may not take that to be a life changing event, and that lead into a narrative about their experience. What we'd expect be more impactful obviously into t encounters, abductions, close up sightings of obstructured objects. These would fall under what generally has been found as high intensity or high impact sightings, right that typically may make a lasting change on the person. And there's still a lot of research to be done here, I think in terms of what the long term impacts of these kind of significant let's call them sightings or events are. I talked a little bit about Kenneth Ring. He looked at near death experiencers and UFO experiencers and found changes in physiology, even things like allergies, sometimes changes in just general level of what he called psychic awareness or paranormal awareness, increases in ESP or reported ESP events, things like that, which is also, as you probably well know, associated with the UFO literature, which which why should it be? I think, why to take an extraterrestrial if we're going to go down that road an extraterrestrially explanation. Why would these be the kinds of you know, why will we see esp and Poultergeist effects associated with an extraterrestrial visitation? I don't you know, I could only presume to try to guess at the answer to that. But it's yeah, you know the the arial school ENCOUNTERY familiar with that one, right, Yeah, that one is profound. I think that's um I always say that's in my top five, but it's closer to my top very top of all the encounters and so interesting and um, so you have you know, you can see the changes that happened to these children as time has gone on. And I keep trying to push Randy Nickerson, the creator of the Ariel Phenomenon movie, to get that thing released. I really want to see it, remember that, Yeah, yeah, I want him to get that movie released before those kids turned forty. Right, Yeah, that's another amazing incident, you know where you talk about lifelong impact. And I've seen remember from from my I watched the videos of John mac interview the kids. Uh. The interaction was was of interest. They were they were conveyed information, especially about planetary um pollution things like some of the kids at least were technology so right that there was a message delivered there and it wasn't even necessarily you know, verbal, It was in the head so to speak. So yeah, it came to me, one of them says, right, you know, right, yeah, yeah, that that gives some of those interviews give me chills to watch. Yeah, yeah, And you know it does start to we talk about this idea and uthology of a control system of what if these are measurable impacts that occur in people's lives and they are causing societal changes. Is this, you know, in some sense say, what would be indoctrination? I guess we could, we could ask program and to what end? You know? But um, yeah, you know, it's it's affected the them in different ways. You know. I've talked to I think for witnesses now from that event, and it's all you know, it's changed their lives quite a bit, you know, and and uh Selma Sidic. You know, it's just it's amazing, you know, how it hasn't affected her so much as it has some of the others, you know, as far as emotionally and all that. But a few of them it has really affected them emotionally. And when I talked to Randy Nickerson, some of the people he did get a hold of said no, they never want to talk about that again. So that has that effect, you know, on some of them. And so what is your how does your research kind of fit into a situation like that. Well, first, it reminds me a little bit of what I think it was John Keel who talked about the silent contact e who may never you know, divult they've had an experience that may just be as amazing as someone who has talked about it. That kind of reminds me of that there could be people that have had or there must be people who have had these kinds of experience who don't want to divulge or even address it, you know, like you you've mentioned it's to me it is um this is where the rubber meets the road. When you talk about sightings of cases involving entities with multiple people, multiple witnesses involved. There was obviously something there that these kids saw, Yet they, to some degree or another, many of them took away a little bit of a different message, which is interesting. I mean, there were overarching concerns about about the planet and ecology and things like that. Um, yeah, that's but you know, to what end, right, is that? Is that intentional? Is that an intentional objective on the part of the phenomenon to to kind of transmit these ideas? Is it just something that we as human beings and here we get in, you know, again to this Youngian idea? Are we are we interpreting these things based on our own inner experiences, in our own dynamics, right that that you know, these beings would be, would have those concerns and convey them to the to us. Right? Is it it some combination of the two, which I think is most interesting, But of course the one that be hard is hardest to prove, right that there is some kind of interaction between what people physically experience and that seeming to impact them in a way that maybe if we were observing we might not even be able to see. Right, Well, here's a question from Stephen up here, Um, are you interested in the psychological impact or the actual event itself? I think they're both. My interest really is more interested right now, I'm more interested in what the impact is because I can that's something that we can look at the changes and measure those changes and kind of psychologically examine that that impact, look at personality, you know, traits that change things like that. Of course, the interest it's harder to get at what's actually happening in the moment, I think, right, Um, again, when we bring in the hard sciences, physics and testing for you know, um, trace cases, things like that, these all these things can play together. But yeah, I think, and to answer that question directly, the impact is is what I think is most easily studied. Maybe if that's if that answers, yeah, I could see that just a couple of things. I have talked to the people that were involved in the Alagash incident, which is a really interesting case, and the two changes that it made in two out of the four people. One he completely changed his artwork. He was painting in one way and all of a sudden he starts painting geometric. And the other one was one of the witnesses didn't really ever pay attention to math, and all of a sudden he became so good at it. He actually worked for NASA eventually, you know, using mathematical equations. And I'm not sure exactly what he did, but and so that that's interesting now I have to tell you about a friend of mine and his reaction because it's just so bizarre. I have a friend I shared an office with him, and he's well known for the Antiques Road Show. I'll just say that he's on the Antiques Road Show and so, and I've mentioned this sighting before and his reaction on this show. So for the long time listener, you'll have to bear with me. But so he tells me, you know, he finds out that I'm doing a UFO show because someone came into the office and they started talking UFOs even though it's an antique you know, appraisal office is what it was. So he said, well, I know the real So I go, well, yeah, tell me. He said he was at Amherst College and he was in the dormtower and he said, with four or five other guys. And he says, I'm not going to say we weren't drinking, but anyway, had nothing to do with it. He said, all of a sudden, something caught our eye in this box like object came right into the mall in the the walkway above about the fifteenth floor or something. And he said it looked like a box and it had lights blinking all around it, and it just stayed there stationary, he said, and then all of a sudden it's shot up toward the mountains. And he says, then this jet came and came toward it, and he said, all of a sudden it burst into lights, five lights, and the lights started blinking back and forth. And so I go, oh, my goodness. I said, what did you think after that? And he said, I could give a beliep. He says, I never even think about it. So I guess drinking to me, you know, yeah, that's because how often can you ask people that you know, usually if you're talking UFOs with somebody's because they're interested either that they had a personal experience and they plays value in it, but again they're getting back to that original or that that previous idea. There are non impactful sightings for people. But it's interesting to me that you could have something that that out there to see it and then just saying well, you know whatever. But sure some people, yeah, it's like which is you know the And again the reaction to UFO sightings is not in any way I want to say, it's homogenous, right that, in other words, that everybody is alike. And I want to imply that people are respond the same way to UFO sightings. It's these these kind of similarities that we see over and over again, which are which are interesting to me, and including some things that happened during the sighting as well, which you know, to go back to the question, somebody asked that we see things like the odds the odds effect that Jenny Randalls has talked about, this kind of this this odd sense of reality not seeming quite right or not normal, background noises ceasing, um. Again, the idea that the experiences was designed specifically for the person involved. Um. Sometimes and this is one that I've heard more rarely, but but I've still heard that actually losing the ability to hear it all, so people conversing and then suddenly not hearing each other when the sighting is going on. Yeah, I heard that too. I've heard that right, that happened at the Berkshire's incident. Yeah. And so here's a question from Mary Grace. Do you think that something is switched on in the brain of experiencers? Right? And this is I think this is a possibility. This is a way that some have have kind of viewed this um going back again to people like Ken Ring who who have looked at these kind of similarities among people reporting that and and more recent research. Some of you guys may have heard a little bit about the work Gary Nolan is doing on the biology of people who report these kinds of experiences. There do seem to be things there that um, if I remember in his and I haven't seen in depth what he's doing, but their their difference isn't caught a pertament structure and um and people who have these kind of experiences, So this brain structure actually seems to have changed or be different than than than the general population. Right that maybe these these people have an ability to tune into something that that others might not. Um, I've also seen that that area described as relating into so kind of that that which, if you think about it, probably makes some degree of sense that people who who have these kinds of experiences may be able to more easily tune in to other forms other forms of information. A concept called transliminality sometimes comes up here, the ability to more easily accept information through into your conscious awareness and stuff like that. So I would say that's definitely where I think in the future here is in terms of research in regards to UFOs and the effects on people. What it is about specific individuals that may have some especially a biological marker or that you can physically see, you know, by imaging, and what that relates to in terms of their ability to experience odd states of consciousness or odd events or um you know. And again the similarities that Ring found that people who are prone to being able to encounter UFOs as he might phrase it, I think he did phrase it, also have the ability possibly to en are things like near death experiences or we could speculate that that maybe there's some over left there with Poulter geis when we talk about these odd um odd esp and you know Poulter geist experience is related to to UFOs. Of course, that's kind of They've been a begging question for for decades now, is these paranormal aspects of UFOs and what they what they really indicate? I mean, M. Poulter guys don't seem like they should go with UFOs. Yet we see routinely or commonly, I won't say routinely, but commonly that they do, which is to me very very intriguing. Well, you know, as you know, when we talked off air. I told you, um that I had what I could only term as a ghost experience, you know, and I've had a UFO experience, so I do not want a near death experience, so I don't. Yeah, I can skip that one. As long as you're able to report it after the fact. I guess it's all right, right, come back, Yeah, I suppose yeah, wow. And what I've seen so far has just been kind of preliminary. I'm sure it's a little farther along and then the public is aware. But but you know, small sample research a couple one one doesen two dozen people that that are experiencers, and uh, what the buy life? If there is a biological difference in people who have reported these kinds of encounters, I think that would be kind of groundbreaking, right, And you say that's kind of what Gary Nolan is working on. Will Still, I've seen just a little bit of that, just kind of what's publicly available. I don't have any special insight into it, but I have seen some of the slides he's presented with findings that there is a difference and the structure specifically, I think it's in the caught a pertainment which is a basal ganglia structure. UM, kind of a complex integrative structure which is hard to you know, but but is in some senses related to an intuitive capacity. So I think he's found some some evidence that there is a maybe stronger connections in that area, or hyper connectivity or just larger structure something like that. I haven't you know. Again, we'll have to see how that comes out. But well, I guess when you know your your paradigm shifts, Um, you have some type of experience, then yes, um, you know you're going to be open to you know, there's a lot of things going on that maybe I don't know about. Sure, sure, yeah, the idea that that can just open open up these kinds of alternate sources of information, right, So, um, maybe they're not necessarily directly you know, related UFOs and poultergeist. Maybe people after having their eyes open to the uh, you know, the UFL encounter, are more likely to experience, more prone to be accepting of I don't know, but it does. It gets difficult there, but we do see there are reports in the literature of common Um, it's not uncommon, let's say, for people to say that before a sighting or before an event or a Poultergeist event, the UFO event that there are um would be the term I want to say, kind of liminal triggers. But things in the house might be being u disorganized because the house is being renovated. Right, Um, things were slightly off that day because I took a different route to work. I've heard that one a few times, right, that the sighting occurred on just an alternate route to work I just took because I don't know why. That to me is an important question, why, right, why were you there? M So that that to me is is you know, is there an intention behind that that's causing these kinds of things? But it's it's difficult, of course, to to really get into. I think that's what we need as more of a more of a social approach to the impact and the experiences and right really looking at the experiences of people just as as much as we might the physical aspect of what the craft look like or what the what remains that might have left or things like that. So when you're working with the SCU, is this kind of the path that you're on. Yes, I mean I've been in a kind of private industry now for a wild past couple of years. I'm not really I'm probably gonna go back and do some teaching, but I don't really do research in terms of you know, university research anymore. I I see that we do have a lot of strong folks in the physical sciences and SU they've done some great work on the the NEMET siting and the video on things like that, but I think there are really only two or three of us that are in social sciences. Doesn't seem like there's as big of a you know, contingent there. I just kind of like to see other people take up that, you know, and it seems like it's it's something that with the work Gary's doing that there's a lot of possibility there to actually find measurable biological differences and people who've had these experiences. Seems kind of like a game changer. Yeah, cameras about ready to fall again. Yeah I caught it. Yeah Yeah, that was a sorry go ahead, no, no, you go ahead. I was just gonna say that kind of goes all the way back to when I started getting interested in UFOs, the social dynamic. I was lucky to be mentored in some sense by Jim Moseley of Saucer News, who was for years ran the longest running UFO zine or magazine for for decades, and he was always interested in the social dynamics of both you know, of UFO sightings and within the UFO community itself as well. So you know, that kind of social social aspect is what I kind of caught onto. I do believe we have a blog about him on our website, do you. Yeah, not all that long ago. Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know. I didn't know that of that connection there. Yeah. I was actually lucky enough to be a contributing editor to Jim's magazine for a few years, which means mainly I just fielded calls from him, you know, going over the new issue. But yeah, it was a great and great experience. Yeah, how about that. So here's another question. I don't know if you can read the screen. I know you're just using your phone. There. Thoughts on the Skinwalker ranch in light of the mix of UFOs and paranormal phenomena. I think he's kind of he or she is kind of just hinting along. Uh, you know, the mixture of them all in one place, right, right, yes, and it becomes difficult to separate, right, I mean, do we want do we want to or should we separate it? You have this, you have these kinds of odd events that we might not other than the sightings of actual uf what we'd common and commonly call UFOs, and you know at the ranch that what these mysterious animals and things like that, what large wolves that can be shot and bowls getting out of pins and stuff like that. Uh, you know, it definitely seemed almost I don't want to say, a great place for us for a social experiment as well, but um, some indication maybe that, you know, having teams of people out there and this I don't know, you know, I know they were measuring the impact on on the the people at the property as well, I believe when they did those studies. But I don't know whatever came out of that, but i'd be interesting to see. I watched a little bit of the sea this year. They had a you know, a skin Walker ranch. I can't remember the name of it it was. I think it might have been on History or Travel Channel or History Channel, can't remember. Um. I actually interviewed the people in the show, but but I didn't follow that for very long, only because you know, a good friend of mine really knows a lot about the scientific equipment, and it was saying, you know, the things that they were using on site did not make sense. You know it was, but anyway, so I kind of stopped watching that. But I don't I don't know how that ever turned out. It was supposed to be crazy things happening during the season, which I never saw, right, But it's still a very very interesting place and uh, you know, especially all the variety and just makes you wonder why we have places in this world that are like that. It's not the only one, right, And you know, again we come down not just to structured UFOs, but but these other kinds of odd and more what um strange animals and things like that at the property and just the odd events happening. It becomes more a question where you want to ask, is is the you know, this again goes back to the old John Keel and Jack Valley idea that that UFOs might be more paranormal than than than explainable by kind of common science. I don't know that that it's attempting but maybe dangerous to hold, right, But it does seem to be that these kinds of things go together and in many instances, right, and that's that's one of it would be interesting to see what ever actually came out of that in terms of measured um changes and things like that. But I don't think a lot of that's been made public as it yet. Yeah, yeah, when someone has like, does it matter you know, in your in your in your thoughts and what you're looking into when it comes to this topic. Does it matter if someone is a young child and has something happen And I'd like to talk to you a little bit about these people that are claiming they're having, you know, abduction experiences, But for right now, just say there's a family and the family's driving along a highway and all of a sudden, this UFO you know, goes over their car, stops over their car or whatever, and they all experience this and they're very, very scared. Does it affect some of a different age levels differently or I don't think there's been a lot on that yet. I think it I would assume so though you know that happening at different points in life, I would assume would have different long lasting consequences. I think that's something that we should look at a little more. But I do think it's interesting that we see sometimes that people kind of adopt the story of the family. I noticed this in a few cases that I've seen, where even when the younger witness might not fully remember the incident, they kind of rely on that narrative that was shared by the family. Specifically, I want to brings to mind the cash and landrum case. No, this is not the discount that, but but it was a Kobe Kobe Colby younger. Yeah, he when he reported, I think it was on with you. Actually when he reported what it sounded, Yeah, that was and he reported mainly what what the older members of the families I sounded. It sounded to me more like he was expressing the story of what happened in his own recollection. And I don't mean that, you know, as a as an insulting thing, but as a young child, maybe you adopt the narrative more than the actual recollection. I mean, you can remember bits and pieces, like he remembers, for instance, being under the dash and how hot it was, and you know all that, and you know and that he was terrified, certainly, but when you're I think I want to say, he was like seven years old, or something like that. I can't remember for sure. Young, I know, but at that age, you know, I mean, of course you're gonna remember something really traumatic like that, but I mean you only remember bits and pieces like it was a dream normally, you know. Right, and again becomes an issue with human memory being fallible and being constructive in nature, it's just natural for us to to when we recount to an experience in our lives, to to utilize a kind of a narrative quality. We fill in gaps that maybe we don't even realize sometimes that we fill in, or we make assumptions that we we we don't even you know, know that we do. Um Again, that's not then this kind of goes back to a bigger point that I want to make. The UFOs and reporting of UFOs do not seem in any way to be associated with psychopathology. In other words, this kind of common claim that was prevalent in you know that UFOs are related to crazy people, right, does not in any way seem to be born out by any kind of evidence. Even looking at the literature. Um, you know, there's an interview with a guy who ran a major psychology clinic in an urban setting. You know where you'd see he'd saw literally thirty thousand patients I think over the years, not once that he said he ever had a case of it involving some kind of UFO claim. So I just you know, that's anecdotal, of course, but interesting that really that I'd never seen, you know, a case that exemplifies this idea that people are reporting UFOs because they're in some way delusional or hallucinating or anything like that. So and maybe that goes back to the Robertson panel with their you know, how to get rid of this problem. Let's just say people are hallucinating or misinterpreting or I'm sorry, go ahead, yeah, yeah. The nineteenth for those new, the nineteen fifty three Robertson panel basically was put in place after the nineteen fifty two such an active year in the UFO sightings that they were trying to tamp down all the hysteria. And that's what the Robertson panel was about, basically. And look, from a I'm sorry, I didn't need to jump in conspiracy mindset. You know, we can say, well, hey, this is obviously we could take a conspiratorial approach to that. But when you look at the impact of those fifty two sightings had on communications abilities in the country, people being able to use the phone line to call the Pentagon they you know these are these The reports were that these the fifty two wave kind of crashed the telecommunications lines in Washington. So, regardless of what these objects were, just getting people to stop calling about them, right, what it was kind of a goal. So that's right. We have a question from over on Facebook from Abigail. Do you think a lot maybe psychological the brain trying to make itself makes sense of what they are seeing and feeling for the wrong and fearing I think fearing for their own sanity. Sure, I think that's one way to think about it, right, I mean, if if these experiences are as unusual as people sometimes are able to describe, um, we have to just to keep our own sanity, impose a narrative on what it was that happened to us, right, we have to have a story. And I've noticed this in some of the I think the Berkshire case, which we mentioned earlier, maybe that was before we were on the air, that you see people describing to the best of their ability what happened to them, and sometimes they just lack the words to do so, you know, being able to describe one of the witnesses that was in that program basically described light and that was as much detail as she could could get to. You know, there does seem to be in an ineffable quality of many of these experiences, which is hard for people can pay. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about. You were talking about Jane, the older woman who I thought, I thought, I thought every single person on that show was very credible, you know. I mean, that was an excellent episode of anyone has missed that so far, if you can get a hold of it, it's on Netflix Unsolved Mysteries at episode five, the latest version of that, which is really great. And I might have one more witness from that show on this I'm trying to get a hold of one more witness that was involved in that because I just think, you know, I always knew that as the Tom case, the Reed family case, I had no idea that where their witnesses until now there's another example of a case where many of the people who involved their lives were changed dramatically. I mean, if you saw the Unsolved Mysteries episode, you could see the I think they spent some time in that once. I'm thinking of a different docu of some of the changes you know, the family went through based on reporting that experience. Having that experience, Yes, really a good watch. That was actually the Reed family. Just the fact that they were, you know, owned a restaurant in the middle of the town. And she's got tired of talking about it. Are people teasing her? Um, some guy jumped up on a table and you know I was teasing, or you know, the Little Green Men or something. So and actually Tom Reid's mother is very, very credible. I've heard her talk a few different times. I saw her on an episode of there's a YouTube show called The Behavioral Panel. I watch every one of those. Okay, yeah, gotta be on this show, by the way, are they I just I just was in correspondence with them last week, So that's great to hear. I was hoping they were going to do stuff. Okay, good, So Scott, I've been in touch with them, and I just wrote them tonight like, please, you guys get together every Tuesday night. Please, you know, please let me know when you can be on to make your decision tonight because they were going to be on and then one of them had to go somewhere, so the whole thing was dropped, and uh, just waiting for them to come back. Yeah. I love what they do and I think there's a lot we can learn there from from how they how they look at at witnesses. And I guess you could call statement analysis, and although that's kind of a term that's been inappropriately used, you know, kind of there are ways in psychology we can we can um kind of approach approach witnesses and and they do a good job. I think of what we've seen from them in terms of you know, especially there. Hey, I don't want to say there's human lie detectors, but those are the guys that are the most recognized body language experts in the world. So yeah, yeah, and I do encourage people to check out the one on Bob Blazar. I was just thinking about whether I should bring that up or not. Right Well, I uh, I'm going to talk to them about that when they're on. But a lot of people don't enjoy when I talk about Bob Blazar in the show. And that's okay, Um, everyone can have, you know, their own opinion on what they think about that. But yeah. So, UM, let's let's say we just have just three minutes until we go into break. But UM, I just did want to, um talk about the subject of what people are talking as you know, they term it now as experiencers, um, but as we had known for many years called abductions. UM. That's such a wide range phenomenon whatever it is in this country, not in every country, but in this country in particular. And I guess I'm gonna ask you, first of all, what are your general pots on those? Very definitely I'll say I'm interested. Let's start there. There's something there that's of interest. Whether you know what the explanation is, what the literal explanation eventually turns out to be, one way or another, it's still intriguing that people are reporting these kinds of experiences. I would say that I look at abductions kind of similarly to something maybe analogous that I'm more fascinated by, kind of the look at South America in the fifties and sixties, they had cases involving Harry Dwarfs right being kidnapped by Harry Harry Dwarves. That was a common changed the differences between between cultures. I think you're interesting. We see a little bit of that. UFO abduction primarily at least discussed these days as a Western phenomenon that emerged kind of in the nineties, and to some degree people have these days I think, plus at least less emphasis or interesting. Maybe I don't, I'm not sure, but they they do still seem to refle this kind of encounter with the extraordinary, which we again we have stories about, right, we have. We have patterns in our in our in our stories of how we deal with interacting with the unknown, or I mean, we have forms of narrative. And again going back to what Billard talked about, you know, the way that people have these kind of initiatory journeys. One thing that sticks out to me I'll just mentioned briefly in his work, he noticed that specifically in regards to to abductees. Most of the time, I think maybe and all the cases he looked at, they did not People did not actually recall going through the doorway of the craft. They remember being inside right after being in their room, for example, but they don't remember crossing the threshold. He called this doorway amnesia, which he maps on analogously to some of the kind of more typical structures of experiences involving shamanic initiation, right, have kind of similar patterns. So just something of note there that I think is kind of interesting. It's very interesting. All Right, when we come back, we'll continue on about the abductions. We're ready to go into break now. For those of you on YouTube, I have a little video clip that's going to play for a little bit. We'll be right back right after these messages. All right, welcome back to the show. My guest tonight is tim or Timothy Brigham, PhD. And we were talking before we went into break about the abduction abduction phenomenon, and let's let's talk about there's some major I want to say, the major case I made an earlier the Allagash I mean, yeah, the Allagash incident. There's also the Pascagoula incident, which is a fascinating case. That one in particular really changed Calvin parker life. You know, I talked to him actually a number of times, probably once or twice a month, but it really has changed his life in particular. Right, and you you brought up Alagash, and that made it. I made a note here when you did that that reminds me that we have seen in the literature of it related to the psychology of of UFO reporting that that artists are overrepresented. You probably know this kind of anecdotally, ranging from four of thirteen and some samples to one hundred percent to at least three quarters. Um, that does seem to be an overabundance of people who have artistic talent and of those reporting UFOs, which is an interesting, uh, an interesting idea, right, whether that's a chicken or the egg kind of phenomenon, we come to that question, of course, but um, definitely more so than you would expect just if it was a random distribution of people reporting sightings. I had no idea. I had never heard that before. But really, you know, okay, no, and I'm a painter too, I mean not that that you know, you know, but still I had never actually known that. But now that I think about it, Um, you know, I think of Peter Robbins as an artist, so was um Bud Hopkins major artist? Um, And you know Emily Trim is an artist that had I think about Whitley Whitley Strieber of course, I mean maybe the the example you know at the top of the heap right, Tom Warner, that was up on this show. Wow's the question of you know, is this an effect or is this something that predisposes people to be able to experience these these things? Um? And I don't know, you know, I think that's where the research you know, should go for for in terms of the human psychology. What is it about certain people that can experience these things and what are the other characteristics they might have. I mentioned at the UFO Congress just as an aside, being in the elevator with Whitley Strieber and his his long purported act on electromagnetics and the elevator actually stalling. Of course that's a one off, you know, I can't claim that it's but Whitley said, this happens all the time. I'm around elevators and TVs and light bulbs and they go out, you know, And and luckily we got the elevator going again pretty quickly. But um, you know, you hear that commonly as well. So whether there's electromagnetic obviously there's some kind of relation to to electromagnetics, and in UFOs as we've we've seen electromagnetic effects on people and and uh, you know, cars and other things as well. So yeah, the stalling vehicles. Yeah, uh yeah, that is really fascinating. I never even thought of that angle at all. Um, now I'm really going to be thinking about it. I'll have to tell I think that we could see, you know, organizations like move on that that you or any any large organization could could could gain a benefit by kind of looking at some of the aspects about the people doing the reporting. Um, Greg Bishop and I have even kind of talked about you. Asking enough questions, you can probably find some things that are extremely interesting you might not even assume, right, I mean, maybe it could be something as simple as people's favorite color as gray and they more often report, or I said gray. There's a ufopon there, not intentionally, but right, I mean, what is it? Are there characteristics between people that make them more likely to report or to have the experiences in the first place. I think that that you know, questions about what has been the long term impact on your life, what was the immediate psychological reaction you had to the experience, things like that, those could be integrated into questionnaires for UFO reporting, and I think they'd yield some really good information. Well, I will tell you this that when I started painting late in life, like I was forty two. But I will tell you that since I started painting, that I started really looking at things the way I never looked at him before, you know. And I don't know if that if that's any part of it or not, you know what I mean. Well, we're talking about, you know, with some of these concepts, being able to kind of both communicate and get information that you might not otherwise be able to write. So this concept that I like to go back to a transliminality of being able to allow information through your consciousness or you're unconscious into your conscious however you want to kind of look at that that that does seem to be associated and in many cases with people who you know, are with with reporting odd occurrences, let's say paranormal or novelists. However you want to tournament. Yeah, Now you mentioned the different levels, and so you would say that if someone is thinks they're experiencing abductions, they would be on the intense high end of it, right. This is just Yeah, this has been a distinction that I've seen in a couple of pieces of the of the literature. I think it's useful because of course, not everybody who hasn't experiences and recounts it is going to fall into This is necessarily a life changing event, like you mentioned your your friend earlier. But of those that do right, there do seem to be similarity and maybe that maybe that in itself is a fact or right, people who place more importance maybe typically are people who are artistic. It's hard to you know, to really start kind of creating those causal directions, but they do seem to be correlations high high and artistic ability, high likelihood of reporting something like this right interesting. Well, now I know that Kathy Marden did a she's the niece of Betty Hill. I don't know if you know who Kathy Martin is, but oh, she did a like a study with experiencers and basically the commonalities, you know, that was what she was looking for and she basically the questionnaire was kind of an open ended questionnaire and then people would fill in and it's strange, it doesn't matter where they were from, they had so many related commonalities. But I also I don't know if that they would be interesting to know if she ever talked about, you know, artistic abilities and all right, and then there was there was something I'm trying to remember what it was, Oh, negative blood. I think we're a lot of people reporting Arry getting abductions, which is another strange comment. I'm familiar. I've heard, I've heard the blood the blood thing. I've never I haven't heard enough detail on that, but yes with it. And again, if we to return to the kind of the psychological characteristics, maybe it's just something as simple as people who are artistic have an easier time of integrating this information in a way that they can tell people about it. I don't know, you know, it could be that just being prone to having an artistic capacity makes it more easy for you to verbalize the stuff and tell the story. You know, it difficult to say, but those are the guy. I think if if social science had kind of started looking at these experiences like they should have maybe twenty years ago, we'd have some of these answers. But this kind of whole kind of disdain that well, these are people who are just crazy. Well that doesn't if we have people who are purporting these kinds of experiences, whether they be abduction or encounters with entities or even just you know, discs in the sky of a structured craft in the sky. The explanation that they're psychotic or delusional or paranoid schizophrenic does not have support. So there must be some There should be an approach, you know, in psychology and in the social sciences to try to explain this just to kind of leave it hanging out there as well. And I think the broadest explanation in popular literature was was when I mentioned at UFL Congress just this idea that well, we live in a space stage kind of society and this is just the way that people report their traumatic experiences in a narrative involving science and not very explanatory. I don't I mean a nice kind of philosophical approach. I don't want to, but but you know, in terms of really looking at the people who who report these things and and and not just kind of speculating about, well, they're probably just you know, paranoid schizophrenic when the evidence does not show they are. That's you know, an area that the human psychology research really needs to dig into. I think yeah. And do you think is it just because of you know, you talked about the Robertson panel, you know kind of like the fringe idea of this, why it's not taken seriously and looked at more. I think So, you know, I think whatever the reason there was initially set up, whether it just be a natural thing or was a thing created, that that UFOs must in some sense where it relate to abnormal human psychology must be the product of that. I think though, especially you know, with the stuff with the Navy in the last couple of years, that basically even that you know, people in the the US Navy are saying they don't know what these things are. So to just automatically assume that the pilots are delusional and that we should write this off and is not worth the investigation is completely ludicrous. I mean, we have I think that's kind of changed the attitude. I looked at an professor of mine from grad school just this morning on Joe Rogan. He was talking about UFOs. Hey, you know, when I grad school, nobody wanted to research UFOs what I wanted to research UFOs, but not Keith specifically or anybody. But you know that that's becoming an area that people are openly kind of looking at now. So, um, it's funny. I was saying more support for research in that area. Right. I was speaking to a local artists um, I don't know, maybe a couple of days ago, and I said to her that, um, oh, you know, she said, so you do this, you know you do I do a podcast on antiques and fine art. And I said, well, I also do another podcast. It's pretty pretty popular. And she goes, oh, I love podcasts. What is it? I said, UFOs, and just to see her reaction, and I told her, Um, you know, normally, you know, a few years ago, I wouldn't have told you this, but you know, ever since, you know, it's in the news, you know, like you mentioned the Navy, you know, I was talking about it, the Pentagon, blah blah. I'm not I'm not so worried anymore. I don't. I don't really care. And you know, it's an artist. It's not like a you know, kind of potentially hurt my business in some type of way, right, which as an art appraiser. Here's a question that came in here. Is there any reason to suspect the potential role of quantum entanglement in light of UFOs short and long term effects on witnesses quantum entanglement? That's when like a particle is in one area, an electron and a neutron, am I thinking that I can't remember? Right? Right? So yeah, and maybe this is kind of getting to some of the quantum effects and there you know, there's some some research and quantum impact on the brain and and things like that. It's still very speculative in those areas. I think. I think those are kinds of areas that we consciousness. And of course we know the idea, kind of many of us in this arena know the idea of the holographic universe from Michael Talbot, who wrote the book The Holographic Universe, kind of based I think, originally on some of the work Penrose had done. All comes back to the troubling idea that reality is difficult to understand, and maybe we have a way of understanding that which is not always going to encompass the things that we that we encounter. And again, maybe if we think about UFOs as some sort of control system, if we want to use that term again using kind of a valet term, there a thermostat right, whether it be an internally generated or externally right, I mean the idea that these could be apparitions in the sky, that we somehow can create ourselves using some form of who knows, right. But but these these kinds of ideas, I think are where the questions should go. I still can't say I understand quantum entanglement. I think, as the old singles, anyone who says they understand quantum physics doesn't really understand quantum physics. But yeah, yeah, and string theory, that's another pretty interesting, I should say, interesting thoughts for sure. And I think the bottom line is at this point, we really don't know. You know, we may not know. You mentioned Shock Valet and his you know, his thoughts on this whole thing. We you know, we may have no idea. Even if it was explained to us, we still may not have any idea at all or what's going on, because yeah, I mean I always wonder if it is in part at least a symptom of the human condition, right, I mean, if there were other planets, and let's say there are extraterrestrials, do they have UFOs on their planet? Right? I mean, is this an experience that seeing unknown things in the sky touches some kind of inner human condition? Right now, when we try to talk about the brass tacks of what that means and in terms of what witness seeing something in the sky, it's difficult that, you know. I wonder what extraterrestrials have their own UFOs? How about that? I never thought of that I have thought of, Like I wonder what the equivalent is of someone's first car or first kiss, you know, somewhere else universe. I mean, there must be equivalence to those type of things. I really do believe there has to be intelligent life out there. It would be just almost impossible that there isn't in my opinion, but it's just an opinion. Here's another question. Can you give your best guests at the root of the paranormal experiences? If I had to guess, I mean, I would say that I find the explanation that we're visited, maybe necessarily by traditional if we want to say, the traditional idea of extraterrestrials lacking. Not to say that I don't think there probably are extraterrestrials, and I can't discount that they could come here. But some of the things that we see and the encounter literature, I mean, Josh Kutchen had a good book he wrote on food exchange right between entities, both both mythological entities and entities and close encounters. Whitley comes to mind he experienced drinking a bitter tasting liquid, if I recall correctly. So these these things to me seem are these science things that we should try to scientifically explain, or are these things that we could better understand in almost a mythological or symbolic kind of context. Right, Um, it wasn't really necessarily for for Whitley to drink a kind of stinking, foul tasting liquid. Or does that is that something that's that's representing something in a different way to us, Like maybe that's the it's a language which we might say is similar to a language of dreams and language of symbols and archetypes and things like that. Maybe the meaning of drinking of foul tasting liquid in an encounter isn't what we might do on a surface level, assume it would be that would and of course along withou that come you know, the paranormal parts of it. I'd be interested to know if we did an objective, you know, survey of how many people that have reported let's say UFOs at all and whether they've had you know, related or what they consider related paranormal things, esp things or Poulter Geist things. I think the numbers would be a lot higher then we've probably known so far. There have been some suggestion, but I think that's and that's a hard, hard aspect to not want to look at. Right If if we're trying to figure out what UFOs are and they seem to be wrapped up inside poultergeists or something else, it's it's a difficult, difficult thing to break apart. Yes, there are, there are a number of cases where people have reported, you know, a bigfoot sighting and then a UFO and I don't know if i anost was in play there or not. And Ring mentions this kind of again know he ken Ring did his great study on on near death experiences and UFOs, this idea of you know, these kinds of it. I'm sorry, I totally blanked on with the where I was going with that. Oh, the different kinds of effects, I'm sorry, paranormal open what he called paranormal functioning being being heightened, so telepathy, precognition, psychokinesis. Reports of these kinds of things increased commonly after either a near death or a UFO experience as I dropped the book. But yeah, um and near death experiences. I know this is a UFO show, but those those are really bizarre. Some of the things that people claim that they saw happened couldn't be explained, you know, like a doctor or whispering or something, or another room or whatever. Yeah, there are you know, and it's not an area of my specific expertise, but you do hear of cases where people have objective, objectively verifiable information. Um. How that I think the the that the near death encounter and does kind of map on in some ways to these are experiences. I guess if you you know, to me that the interest isn't the fact that we're conveying an experience that we've had or that you know, the individual has had that is not easy to verbalize, might not be something that in our society we even have a way of discussing. Um. So to me, the similarities there and the attention to to altered states of consciousness and there does seem to be even you know, some suggestion that the certain kinds of childhood experiences can can lead people to being more easily able to interact with non ordinary realities if we want to kind of adopt that approach. Um troublingly, and I'll mention this, I want harp on it. There does seem to be some some suggestion in the literature that the difficult childhoods sources of trauma and childhood and uh, the learned ability to experienced association, things like that might be tied up with the later reports of the paranormal. Um. We'll have to see how that comes out as something. I think they've been mixed findings on. So I don't think it would be as clear as as we might want to first assume. Um. Yeah, commonly people that that in rings work, at least people that were able to uh, to use his his his kind of view, people that were able to experience UFOs and near death experiences commonly had histories and childhood of being in tune with other realities, aware of other realities, things like that. So interesting, Ure, there's a question you probably want to clarify this one. Can you read that so he thinks that it's more likely an entirely psychological phenomenon rather than an actual event occurring. I don't think. I don't think I'm I think there's something that's stimulating the experience. Now the hard part for me becomes how to figure out what it is it's actually causing or you know, I don't think that that the traditional explanation that a person can can have an optical illusion of something in the distance and then go on to convey this kind of experience, as you know, a life changing experience is very likely. So no, I would say, at least if I, you know, kind of get the underlying meaning of that question, I not say that that psychological explanations of UFOs are sufficient. H they we must kind of understand what it is. There's something on the other side of that that is interacting with us. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it seems to be physical at sometimes it also seems to do things that we would not consider physical. Um. But again, anytime you can kind of talk about psychology and how it relates to people's experiences, you know, it might come across as if you're you're completely negating an external reality. But that's not what I want to do and that's not my intentional least. Yeah, now, you you mentioned earlier you're UFO sighting. Um. Someone wanted to know if you had any other experiences in your life personally just the just the siding, the red light siding, UM, a couple of odd just oddballs, like we've all, you know, we've had kind of random, odd experiences, nothing worth, nothing worth really kind of going going and putting out there. The UFO thing with UH in the early nineties, I think, and it was with I was actually with a mouff On group when I saw that lasted. You know, it's a two or three second siding nothing. If it had not been that, there was an area already kind of discussed in terms of the sightings, I probably wouldn't even put much emphasis on it. But you know, being able to say I saw the gold freeze red light was pretty pretty cool. So yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's kind of funny it seems like was that going on that was in the nine you you're saying it wasn't that also going on the Hudson River Valley? Yes, I remember similar, yeah, because I remember hearing at the same time hearing what was going on there. So yes, you know, yeah, some of just said. You know, I've heard people say this before. Lights are not objects. I mean, you don't see a structured craft. It doesn't mean that there's not a structure craft. You know that the lights are mounted to. But you know, uh, people take more seriously a structured craft than lights in the sky. I guess sure, And I mean I think probably to some degree realistically. Even Jayannheineck, what did he call him those damns? What he had a term for them, those damn nocturnal lights. It was actually he made an acronym. It was something like, you know, stupid lights the sky sls or you know, he totally just thought there's not a lot of information that can be gleaned from those. And I mean not to again discount the experience of a person who might have something meaningful happened there, but lights in the sky at night. I don't know that we can gain a lot more insight about about UFOs from from those kinds of encounters. I will tell you though people have mentioned to me, you know, on and off air, but a lot of people have mentioned off air, you know, watching what they thought was like a satellite and Alison, it took off in another direction and you know, bizarre behavior of lights in the sky. That is another mystery, and you know, go ahead, No, I was just gonna say some of the behavior of the objects even is of interest to me. I know of a few cases where we've seen columns of light actually bend in a way that I remember Professor Michael Swords talking about a couple incidents of this where was it a car headlight I believe, actually shot out and then turned in an elve and the light was almost being pulled to the object and kind of violated physics. Um, you know, if we're talking about things that can affect light in those ways, and those are externally legitimately, how should we say the externally real objects to the impact that those things could have on the human brain. And maybe, and I trouble, you know, I have trouble trying to describe what my view as myself here on this. But maybe there's something that is energizing people internally from a distance. Maybe some of these electromagnetic effects are actually causing what we could call psychic energy, Right, things in the brain and the mind to churn and change, and the reaction to that is some kind of interactive process, right, I don't know. Maybe if I was alive in the eighteen hundreds and I had a UFO citing I describe propellers on it, and maybe I really saw them. I don't know, maybe that's a you know, a misidentification or a misdescription. You know, it's difficult, but um, you know, cases of encounters with entities aren't aren't aren't solely related to to UFOs as those of us you know, familiar with the fairy lore and things like that and all kinds of other you know, anomalous encounters. It's not always you know, UFOs aren't the only source of of of our our experiences with the external whatever it is, right right, right. Um. You know, there's a little bit of talking the chat about Whitley Strieber, and um, you know that he's a gifted offer basic author basically, and you know, uh, is his story believable? Do you think it's a fairly believable story some of the things he's told. I think from you know, my interactions with Whitley and just reading and knowing the case to you know, like many of us do, I guess I think he's very uh believable in terms of he believes exactly what he's trying to describe. I think he he does a good job of getting I think a lot of the nuances and a lot of the kind of he's such a good writer that he can describe in many ways some of the odd things about the encounters that might not makes sense sense if someone who was a less great writer described them. But I mean, then again it becomes a question, he's kind of an amazing writer. Is there a reason that an amazing writer might have an experience like this? I don't know, right, I mean, and you know, we could even go into I know there's been some I don't know how much we should, but even Whitley has has discussed it. In his youth. I think he was maybe affiliated with some some testing, university testing and psychology. I don't know, but there's been some some kind of you know, chatter there. But um, yeah, I mean that the bigger, bigger thing there to me again is is he's such a great writer. Was that related at all to the reason that he had the experience? I mean, it seems almost too much of a coincidence. Yeah, But there are many people in UFOs that come across as completely believable, and Travis Walton is probably one of the most most believable people in UFOs, I'd say, in terms of having had you know, their own experience. Um yeah, talk about the way it affects someone. You know. I've had a lot of time with Travis over the years, and he, you know, he really wishes it never happened, you know. You know, although you know, I'm sure there are you know, there's always something good that comes out of something bad. So you know, yeah, And I mean, I know with with Travis going through there are people targeting him specifically. I mean I talk about phil class and people. But you know, if you've gone to a level where people are actively you know, just putting you in the community and saying you're a liar. And then he Travis went through a lot. I don't think he gained much out of what he what are he went through there maybe a different perspective. I don't think he monetarily has gained a lot from it. Um yeah, I want to I want to discuss that just a little bit, because there's a misconception, Oh, you know, he's making a fortune. He speaks at all these events or whatever he's told He's told me. We've sat and talked. He says, do you know that since I'm retired, I have flexibility, so I'll you know, pay out of my own pocket the travel to half of these things. And he says and then it's like, um, you know the fee, I get it's enough to like cover you know, some other expenses or whatever. But he says that, he said, I don't do anything for the money. I could care about that, you know, he just he wants one thing about Travis, his story has never changed. It's always been exactly the same, and uh, you know, he's it's such an incredible story. And I've noticed also that Travis, if I my understanding at least, is that he's never or maybe only once, has gone through hypnosis regarding these one time, so it'll never go again. Yeah, And that makes me wonder if there has been some evidence that there was an article, actually it was a q FOS article oddly enough that uh, people who were hypnotized more times actually reported more instances of physical abduction. Um how you interpret that, of course, you know, but but more more hypnosis, more more incidents of So I just find it, you know, again, to speak to the validity of what Travis has counted to not have gone repeatedly back and changed a story based on more recent recollections and things like that, Yeah, he basically said he does not ever want to do that again. I mean, it was horrific for him to go through that. It's interesting. That's another thing that you know, I mentioned at UFO Congress Berthel Schwartz, who was maybe one of the biggest psychiatrists in UFOs for for many years. You know, he had he was he worked in hypnosis of people who had who ADD encounters, and he warrants heavily you know, of of some of the reactions to hypnosis that that he noted, um panicum, you know, just negative emotional reactions. Um. So it you don't hear much about those, I don't think in the last several years. But maybe hypnosis is kind of not not as in vogue as it as it maybe wasn't the nineties and early you know, early two thousands. I don't know, well, I know someone that has been you know, Chess started practicing. She is really taking it serious and you know, very very careful that she's not doing anything that may lead someone in any type of way and just trying to be real, real thorough and basically volunteering her time. She's she's not charging or anything. But it's pretty interesting because I don't know how any of that really works. I just know people become more relaxed and maybe they can you know, sort of access some part of the brain. I don't know how any of that stuff working. Yeah, the hypnosis, I think the only really agreed upon definition or explanation is that kind of an altered state of focused relaxation. And I think that's been kind of as far as most psychologists would be willing to go it. It is an altered state that we can achieve. Is kind of similar in some ways to you know, an altered state people report from during the encounter. And that kind of to me is interesting that you have these altered states involved across the board. But you know, there's been mixed evidence in terms of the ability for for hypnosis to help retrieve memory accurately. We all know anecdotally and criminal cases, sometimes there's benefits, other times there may not be. I think the cost benefit there, I don't know. If somebody is struggling with an issue and you know, they feel that the field that can help him, though, I think, you know, there's possibly a benefit there, right, I think, And I think that kind of overcomes the desire to question what these things are as well. I think it's important some of the better social scientists or psychologists and psychiatrists who have been in UFOs have kept in mind, you know, the idea that their role is to help people treat what they may perceive as trauma or come to an understanding of their experience, not necessarily to be an investigator to explain it even you know, going back to Betting and Barney Hill, Ben Simon kind of I think his final analysis was that he felt he felt the results of the hypnosis session were basically Betty reporting her dreams. He didn't take the he didn't take the explanation that it physically the kidnapping had physically happened as as as a fact. But but that wasn't what he was interested in. His interest was in alleviating the symptom that Betty and Barney had had come to him with. And I think that's that's very uh, that's a good position a right to that. You know, as a mental health person, you should be treating the wellness of the person, less interested in an investigation. So I know someone that's actually probably listening to the show right now who actually called doctor Simon um, you know, years ago and because of our situation with their brother. Basically and got into discussion with Betty and Barney Hill, and I think he relayed just about basically what you're saying, M that h Yeah, which is Yeah, there's a there's an excellent interview actually on the if you're familiar with the Faded discs UFO archive, you can find him on the way back and there's an interview of Ben Simon on a radio show discussing his his taking. Yeah, he had a Simon. You know, that's interesting because we kind of that's the first UFO encounter and hypnosis that being you know, tied up together. Simon had worked as a doctor for I trist for World War two vets, using hypnosis to treat to treat trauma in that sense. So again, he was not concerned with what the explanation of what happened was. He was concerned with helping the person deal with the trauma. So yeah, some of just put here and I don't know, I don't have any uh, you know, linked to this or whatever. But he was put on a show where they tested his truthfulness and he passed, which was interesting. Yeah, I remember there was a he was on a game show or something where they tried to say he did not pass a polygraph based on this game show. I didn't put a lot of I would yeah, it was I think it was maybe takes. I do remember that I do, yeah, and yeah, I didn't put a lot and that. Um yeah, I just want to let people know the line is open. If you have a question for our guest tonight, UM, that number is eight five five four seven two five four eight three. It's up on the screen. But if you're over on KGr A ray listening live again, that number is eight five five four seven two five four eight three and Bill is standing by. Thank you Bill for that, and uh so, um no, I think we're recovering so many, so many topics. This is really a fascinating show for me. I'm really enjoying it so far. And it kind of it seems to me that you have a very open mind about this, but you're also trying to look at it logically and then sort of philosophically of what, um, you know, maybe going on, because yes, I have, um, you know, always been interested in open to the idea of what UFOs may be for you know, since being a teenager. Um, I've also gotten a rap for being a skeptic sometimes, and I have no problem being friends with skeptics. You know, many many fine folks who are skeptics. But you know, I try to try to remain objective. I don't certainly don't have the answers about what's going on. I think there's some good questions that we could and we could ask. I think I could, you know, there's some social social psychological research that could could help us understand some of the the impact maybe and uh, you know, what's the ins and outs of what's going on here? Um, But I don't certainly don't have any of the answers. Anytime anybody says they do, that's probably an indicator that you know, yeah, now, you know, going back, we've brought this back up a few different times, but going back to the abductions or experiencers, I couldn't imagine myself, you know, I just think about I try to empathize with, you know, people that are going through whatever it is they're going through. I don't know how someone could function if something like that was happening in their life. It just seems like such an overwhelming experience. I don't know how you could think about about anything else, sure, and that's you know, I would think that would be I would like to see people who are mental health professionals be more available for for for this topic. I mean, if you're going through this kind of experience, a person clearly can have problems dealing with what might be an existentially or a you know, a reality changing event. Mental health professionals not you know, not assuming that a person is having some kind of psychotic break or is a paranoid schipsophrenic, but you know, something like that. Looking at this as an experience which a person needs to learn how to process, figure out how they want to process, and come up with their own narrative about what it means, I think is where mental health professionals can be of use or not, not as much as imposing there what their view is on on on individual's experience. So that's that's where again I like the approach of folks like Ben Simon. They're not promoting any specific point of view there. Their their interest is in helping the people that they're dealing with. Um. Having said that, though you know, there is a lot of data that we can gather, I think, um there was Ah, you mentioned the work by Kathy Marsden. I think Jeff Ritzman had done another kind of survey he called Project Core with some of some kind of similar questions that kind of related to personality, and I think that's one of the sources that that did have the finding of unusual experiences pre pre the siding or pre encounter. One again that sticks out sticks out to me as one where the house was being remodeled, you know, and then then this happened, something like that where there's a there's a dysregulation almost a sense of imbalance and homeostasis maybe and then a way And I don't know if that relates to, you know, the later paranormal or UFO experience, but I think it's very interesting maybe that something could have you mentally in a set where you're predisposed to noticing something in the environment or experiencing something I don't know, you know. But again the assumption to me at least that there is something externally causing the experience to happen. So even if a psychological explanation might help understand why a person is prone to seeing something or experiencing it or reporting it, doesn't necessarily solve the whole problem of what it is it's out there in the atmosphere that people are reporting in the first place. Yeah, you know, I'm wondering too, if you know, we seem to get a lot more UFO sightings when we have more ways of seeing UFOs. I'm talking about like night vision, you know, things like that, and like certain types of cameras now that are going to a different spectrum, which is another puzzle in this whole thing. You know, are what are we seeing now that may have been there all along? You know? Right? A couple on that reminds me on Chris Rotelsk. He had put something on Facebook recently, the just verifying the numbers of reports of UFOs has increased during the pandemic. I want to say, about twenty percent over what it would have been last year at this time. Um. I don't know if the quality of those reports is necessarily increased, or more of them, or UFOs versus IFO or that kind of thing yet, but there do seem to be more people reporting UFOs during the pandemic, which is in itself interesting. Sorry, where was I going with that? Reporting? Yeah, you would ask the original question, you would ask them. Sorry, I was just tanked on what my second hand. Yeah, you know, this is terrible because I was just texting the person that spoke with doctor Simon, trying to get trying to get hurt. Yeah, so we were talking about increases and sightings recently. But yeah, that's what I had heard from Chris Rotowski that there'd have been about a twenty percent increase from looking at the numbers over this time last year. So what the if there's an increased number of objects in the sky or people are just more likely writing now to report or more likely to notice. It's a tough thing name to get a grasp on, but it's definitely of interest. Well, there's articles out now, lots of them that kind of went viral, and that is the increase of UFO sightings is greatly exaggerated. That's the title of it. And then it goes on to say that you know, it's it's because of the COVID thing and all that. I personally, I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference, because if someone is going to work, they're commuting, they're getting outside and driving or whatever, I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference in right and so it reminds me of have you ever heard this one? This is I've heard that people that smoke cigarettes very commonly because hey, you're outside, you're looking up walking the dog too, right? Right exactly? Hey? Yeah, but yeah, let's see we have a caller. I'm just waiting for the name. Okay, we have here we go, hang on just one second. I have to had this and going to do this. And here we go. We have Ray calling from Vancouver. Welcome to the show. Ray, all right, Hi Martin him. Uh yeah, I'm a long time follower. Yes, and so buried me here? Um, um, yeah, are you there? Yeah, I'm here, Martin. H yeah, I have a delay here okaya, And yeah you have a question for our guests. Uh yeah, I was just gonna tell you the story too, but this is uh can you ask him Timothy is dinner? Um? Is there a significant Does he know anything? Yeah? Go ahead, Yeah, it's does he know any significing? It? The thing about the numbers one, one, one one or eleven eleven? Nope, sorry, I can't help on that one eleven eleven. Um nothing unless there's no no, unless there's a nu numerological explanation or something that that I'm not sure of. So I do know, though, since you bring that topic up, that that's of course a common thing that people who have lashed onto was noticing eleven eleven repeating number. But I couldn't tell you much more than than that on it. Sorry, all right, all right, thanks for the call. Ray, Okay, I'm just gonna tell you something else. But you know, all right, Corey ahead, Okay, it's a it's a story, but it's it's gonna end up to that eleven eleven. Now. What it is was, um, it was a nice beautiful night um u July twenty five, twenty twenty ten, forty eight pm specific time. Now, um, you know I went outside and our town house here and you can picture this forty five degrees in the night, beautiful stars out there. There are these group of lights flying over forty five degrees, maybe about four or five lights. Now, I was looking at it and all of a sudden, you know, it kind of faded away. You can see them in bright just right beautiful lights to the bright white lights, and then they disappeared. Now, the thing about was like, oh wow, that's that's weird, you know. So Anyway, I let it go for a while, and but consecutively one flashed that's forty five degrees and just just around that side, and then another flash. Now the flashes are getting closer above my head, and this is the look you're looking at about maybe two thousand feet, you know, because we're about two thousand feet about sea level here. So anyway, what happened was the last flash of light was right above my head. Now checked this out. I was at this time my telephone my iPhone actually sort I was saying that, but my iPhone just you know, it was out. I was watching a some show and my telephone went out, and then I suited. That light flashed above my head. It was twelve o'clock. It left. The light just went blink off, and then I juked. My telephone just came up like crazy. Anyway, this is just like the segment from Close Encounters with when that when that saucer came up. Loved the car bro I forgot the actor's name. He's a good actor name, Richard Dreyfus. Right, Yeah, it's kind of weird. It was funny, yeah, very interesting. Well, Well thank you, Ray, you take care, Yeah, thank you very much. Martin, thank you. Yeah, all right, we have we have the person I was talking about. We have Donna from Massachusetts. Donna, Welcome to the show. Donna, Hey, Hello, I'm enjoying the show. And I have to say I agree with one hundred percent of everything that you've been saying. I come to the subject having a lifelong interest and I had a brother who experienced, or said he experienced something very similar to um Well, an objection experience basically, but he had some different features than the Betty and One Hill, the one case at that time that was well known in the culture. So that was kind of interesting. But my brother had issues and going back to there aren't enough mental health people that take it seriously, and his case was basically all about the subduction type thing. You know, where do you go? So it was the seventies and I was living right outside of Boston, and I remember doctor Simon's name and called information and he was still in practice, and I called looking for concerned about my brother and wanting to thinking that he will be I mean, go right to the top of you a resource that to be willing, thinking perhaps he has a whole caseload of patients that have had these experiences, and so I called and I explained what I was looking for. And I was very surprised that he returned the Paul and it was out of concern about my brother basically, and and he told me that um. I asked if he, you know, was the just to verify it was the the Ben Simon Um involved in the case, and it was. And he said, you know, it's been portray that I believed that they were taken on board a ship. And he said that that is not the case. You're talking Aboutty and Barney Hill, just so people know. Yeah, oh yes, oh I'm so sorry, that's all right, Yeah, okay, so um so um I told him basically my brother's story and he said, oh, I never believed that that's what happened to them. Um. I don't think they were hoaxing, as I said, um but um he thought it was more of a psychological um and and it's funny now looking back at it like that you could just talk about it, but I guess it was a public case. So but he said that he felt that, um, that a lot of it was um um um a Shia delusion. I'm trying to remember the French term for it. Fulliah do is what the French term is fully a do. That's when two people can start to agree upon a delusion or share a delusion. But I think if I don't mean to cut you off there, but I know I know from doctor Simon, my understanding was that he he also felt that that some of this was, given the era, a reaction on the part of both Betty and Arnie to some some kind of underlying racism. Maybe they had experience, you know that that obviously they had in the past experience racism, that this was in some way a man of the session manifestation of that. But you know, I don't know that that's what I believe. He's exactly what he said in that conversation. He said that he felt to it that's a lot of what it was given the given the climate in the time. Um, you know, bi racial um marriage at that time in the late sixties and early sixties was you know, it was it was tough in Laurel, New Hampshire, and they were both very active um to the civil rights. But he felt that it was connected to those kinds of um And I don't want to say alienation and an alien but you know that word, and I've you know, thought about that um in What's interesting is if you look at the tape because because they're well I haven't looked for a long time, but they used to be available, you can see hum through the process. Because that alien that you wind up thinking about the typical gray it starts off somewhere with um, somebody that's Irish and has red hair. And yeah, and I'm sorry Barney did. And this is an interesting thing in and up of itself that the incident with actually seeing the craft up close and seeing creatures inside it, I think was all pre hypnosis. I think it's just the actual abduction itself that was was not recalled consciously. But at one point Barney did describe a red headed irishman and then saying something to the effect if he looks like a Nazi na right right? And and then and when and when and when? When doctor science is and what what makes you think that you know that's what he is? Well, it's known he's mad, because it's known that the Irish hates of um, you know, our population or something thing. And then but the thing is, if you put the whole thing together, esp is that part you know and it all fits. But there's these other things that are worth looking at too. I guess, you know, the evolution and and why that comes about, because it's you know, it's the entity changes sort of over time over those sessions. Right, there was some description of the entity having a large nose at Jimmy Duranty nose as Betty called it. At first he used the term of Jimmy Durranty nose. Uh. Later, I think that they're kind of more traditional m right. Well, he certainly was saying they had it some sort of um, you know, trauma. He thought they had seen something. But the whole getting on board and all of that that he felt he was because he said, they're not lying. I don't think they're intentionally lying. Don't think it's a hoax. I think they believe it because you know, enough time and talking and you know whatever, it sort of turned. I mean, somebody has even gotten to the point where they looked into the book. It was I think it was called the Ballero Shield. It was an outer limits episode and there is a very similar um you know, back in nineteen whatever somebody. I don't know if it's true, but very close. I think it was an Outer Limits episode. If I recall, it was an Outer Limits episode that Betty had possibly seen prior to the okay, yes, yes, and it was a very similar looking alien and and somebody timed it. Now, you know, I apologize that this is incorrect, but I've heard it from some source that you know, I read it somewhere that there was an episode right around the time of one of those sessions, and so it just it was you know, maybe in a magazine or a TV guide or whatever, acistic because they asked about that and they said, oh, no, we never watched that show and we didn't know. But but you know, again if it hadn't changed, but we we focus on that one because you know, that's one and I think I think it's I think it was an Outer Limits episode that was on pretty soon before the report. I think Martin Kottmeyer was one of the folks that nailed down the date and stuff on one and all that had And so yes, I think I'm kind of familiar with what you're talking And again, it you know, it goes to this kind of interactive nature of what people are reporting. There seemed to be social parts of it, and there also seemed to be parts that genuinely reflect and experience with an unknown something and part of I just as Martin said, just got it. You know, I'm interested in doing this work. Um is really it's not about and I explain that up front. It's it's not all about getting the details to write a story. It's about processing you know, what's happening and integrating that and their experience and you know that type of thing. It's it's you know, not that it's necessarily traumatic, but I mean certainly that I wouldn't want to do this kind of work without you know, I could use even more background, but I have enough I feel comfortable to do it. If somebody has some ad reaction during you know, hypnosis and you know, you have to very bad severe anxiety attacks and you have to be careful and people have to you know, be aware that you know, it can be very traumatic and um. But anyway, I think that's interesting though what you said specifically out you're not doing this to write a book about other people's encounters, and I think that's something that people who do are looking for help in regards to trying to figure out how to process an experience they've had, should think about and who you know the person that you you might be going to for help, what are their motivations in terms of sharing the information and things like that. So well, we're just about we're just running right out of time here. Hey, thanks so much for the call. That was That was great. Really appreciate you. All right, I'll talk to you soon. All right. So we are just right at the end of our time here. But can someone get are they people able to reach you if someone would like to discuss you know, I'm I'm on Twitter that you can catch me on Twitter. Um, I don't have any I'm not running a website right now. I'm not really promoting anything, just kind of stepping out into reevaluating the you know, UFO field, and then I'll probably go back and do some more work and maybe write something come out. But right now, yeah, catch me on Twitter. I'll be happy to discuss and collaborate and I answer. We appreciate the conversation. Excellent, Thank you so much, Timothy as a real pleasure. Thank you, Martin. I really enjoyed it all. Great show as always well today hopefully, but the rest of the show is great. That's right, thanks, all right, take care all right? Everyone. So we're back next week with Jan Aldrich and don't miss that one. Jan's a long time boots on the ground researcher and it should be a very interesting show. He's on phone only, so anyway, thanks so much, and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.