WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.480 Hello, friends, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. There's a 2 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:08.240 new slate of films and TV shows that James Gunn is promising a ten year 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.640 plan that he's going to accomplish in his four year project, and I have 4 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:16.839 Comics Extraordinary Wizard jess Plumber back to talk to us about the slate, how 5 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:20.199 we're feeling about it, what we're excited for, what we might have some 6 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:23.440 raised eyebrows about, and what we can expect some good questions to come out 7 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.199 of. So all that more after our commercial break that we have no control 8 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:36.600 over. Welcome back to your host, Matthew. I use datam pronouns, 9 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:40.159 and I'm going to introduce my guest, Jessica. Jessica Plumber has been a 10 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:45.719 frequent guest on this podcast, especially talking about comics and comic history and the 11 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:51.240 way different stories from comics relate to their on screen appearances, particularly with a 12 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:55.520 specialized focus in DC, although all things Marvel have also been discussed. So 13 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:58.960 jess say, hello, introduce yourself. Hi Matthew, thanks for having me 14 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.119 again. It's very funny that you say that, because I am in fact 15 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:07.159 wearing a Star Labs hoodie. But there's a Daredevil shirt underneath, so I 16 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.000 like it. I like to cover all my bases. There you go, 17 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:12.760 There you go. The fans of independent comics are really wanting you to get 18 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.519 some bracelets on or something, but I've got the two major ones I need 19 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.560 to get, like Archie socks or something. Yeah, there you go, 20 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.000 There you go. Well, I went through this late and had a lot 21 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:25.799 of things. I was super excited about a lot of things that I went, 22 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:27.799 Okay, that's interesting, and a lot went what in the world is 23 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:32.719 that? And you're the person I knew I wanted to have on and so 24 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:34.519 I'm going to kind of go through them all and like get your thoughts in 25 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:38.400 each of them. But let me just start overall. What's been kind of 26 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:44.920 your feeling as a DC fan who I think I can safely say is not 27 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:49.439 the president or even vice president of the Zack Snyder Fan Club. What's been 28 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.640 kind of your take on what DC on Screen has been doing these days, 29 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:59.120 on what's been happening on screen with DC Comics these days, and what you're 30 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:04.879 kind of feeling about this new stuff gone forward. Oh, Matthew, I 31 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:08.560 thought we were going to try to not have three hour episodes exactly exactly, 32 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.199 I mean not great. I mean I think that the sort of historical wisdom, 33 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:20.360 at least for like twenty years now more than that, almost thirty, 34 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.560 has been that DC is very good at TV animation and Marvel is very good 35 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:28.800 at movies, and those they can't do the thing that the other one is 36 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:34.479 doing. And I feel like that has mostly held true. I mean, 37 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:39.199 I did I like The Flash when it started, Like some of the TV 38 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:44.080 stuff, the CW stuff has been a lot of fun. The movies have 39 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:50.039 been largely disappointing. I loved the first Wonder Woman, second one was no 40 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:58.439 good. I loved Birds of Prey. There was a lot that was enjoyable 41 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.439 about the second Suicide Squad movie. I mean I was on for we had 42 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:06.960 an episode about that, but and I was on for the Black Adam episode, 43 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.639 which I loved even though it wasn't really that good. But I had 44 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.479 a great time. And then there are other movies that we don't need to 45 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.599 talk about. Yeah, I think that's kind of my thought, and it's 46 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:23.800 it's funny because I exist primarily in a fan space on the stranded of Panda 47 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:29.240 podcast Network, which has great podcast is strongly recommend and the granddaddy flagship of 48 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:31.919 that is the MCU cast, and so I'm in a space primarily with Marvel 49 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:36.240 fans. I love a lot of things about the MCU, but I've got 50 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:38.159 into all of this. I mean, Batman has always been my favorite hero, 51 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:43.919 like long before any of the MCU stuff came along, and I felt 52 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.840 so up and down about all the different DCS stuff on screen, and more 53 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:50.319 recently, yeah, there's been more stuff that I've liked. Birds of Prey, 54 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.439 Sue Us, Thus, Suicide Squad. I thought Shusam was a lot 55 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:58.680 of fun. I thought laughing at Black Adam was a lot of fun, 56 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:01.439 and probably even more than you, I enjoyed a lot of the DC stuff 57 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:06.719 on screen. I just never had a sense of the cohesion, you know, 58 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.800 and annoyed it where it all fit and how it all fit together. 59 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.960 And at least for me my opinion, the stuff that was trying the most 60 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:16.240 to fit together was the Arrow Verse, which was really good, Or was 61 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:21.639 the Zack Snyder stuff, which kind of left me pretty met And honestly, 62 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.639 the thing that I was probably most excited about in the last couple of years 63 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:30.160 was Pattinson, the Robert Pattinson, the Batman which I was then said to 64 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:32.680 learn is not going to be anyway part of these new plans. But I 65 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:34.399 think I heard all this and was kind of like, Okay, well, 66 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:39.040 I'm I love what James Gunn is going to do. I love James Gunn. 67 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.120 I'm excited for his passion and excited there's gonna be at least one strong, 68 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.439 kind of one singular mind at the head of everything in theory, kind 69 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:51.079 of keeping everything on pace. Do you think that's a good thing for dc 70 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:54.920 Do you think it's better if it stays a little bit more everyone doing your 71 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.079 own thing and we don't try to connect at all. What's kind of your 72 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.199 take on that. I mean, I really like before anything else, I 73 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:06.399 feel like it's almost a little silly to say, like, is James Gunn 74 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.399 going to be good for the DCU or bad for the DCU? Is this 75 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:13.920 plan going to be good for the DCU? Is it going to be bad 76 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:18.480 for the Because this is the third ten year plan we've gotten from them in 77 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:24.120 less than like they keep they can't stick to it. So many of these 78 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.319 characters who have had projects announced, like they're like, oh, we're going 79 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.920 to have a Supergirl movie. Well you said that you canceled one last year, 80 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.199 literally last year. Oh, we're gonna have a Green Lantern project. 81 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:39.639 You canceled one literally last year. So we're gonna have a Booster Gold movie. 82 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:45.399 Okay, you announced that in twenty eleven, filmed movie. They did 83 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.160 film that girl movie, and hey, you know, they've also been promising 84 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:50.399 a Blue Beetle movie for as long as it longer than they've been or a 85 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.439 Blue Beetle project for longer than they've been promising Booster Gold, and that's finally 86 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.759 happening. So like, maybe James Gunn does seem like someone who actually gets 87 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:03.680 things done, maybe it will happen, But there's a large part of me 88 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:09.079 that's like that we're going to get two of these things. Like I just 89 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.360 I find it really hard to believe that DC and Warner Brothers can carry through 90 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:21.240 on what it is they're doing because I feel like Warner Brothers has never understood 91 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:30.399 the DC properties, and they don't understand they don't understand superheroes, they don't 92 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:35.279 understand comics, they don't understand interconnected universes. And so the people at Marvel 93 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:43.759 and at Marvel Studios knew how to translate what a shared universe looks like to 94 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:50.279 film, and nobody working on a DC project could make that happen at Warner 95 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:56.199 Brothers because the people above them simply didn't understand it. And the closest that 96 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:01.920 they had to someone in charge of everything was Jeff Johns, who was only 97 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:06.720 interested in adapting his own work. Like right that, it's literally all of 98 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.639 it, like Shazam is a Jeff Johns comic. Justice League stuff is from 99 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:16.439 Jeff John's comics. It's all like Jeff John's joint, which is problematic. 100 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.040 And oh, yeah, I don't we want to ask why we don't have 101 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:25.040 a cyborg movie? And yeah, that's good to know because I think you 102 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.920 know, Zach Schnyder's obviously a kind of controversial figure, but a lot of 103 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.720 people do love his version of a and I think he did with a slate 104 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.879 of movies that he either created himself or was kind of very involved in put 105 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:39.199 together some degree of cohesion. And I think, if I understand part what 106 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.000 we're saying is that whether or not you like the vision he had, which 107 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.680 I think very debatable, even he only had so much power, like he 108 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.360 was not what he was, never like the kind of power that FIGI is 109 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.160 over at Marvel. Oh no, I mean it just look at Justice League, 110 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:57.839 like all the nonsense with like obviously, like Zack Snyder had to leave 111 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:03.360 that project because of a terrible tragedy and his family, and that's like no 112 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:05.319 one could have predicted that, and that's not the fault of him or his 113 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:11.480 family or anyone at Warner Brothers. And the solution was to bring in Josh 114 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:18.279 Sweden because he had been successful with Avengers, the closest analog to the Justice 115 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.639 League, and they were like, oh, I just do Avengers for us, 116 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:26.000 But they never considered that those two directors have diametrically opposed styles. They 117 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:33.840 couldn't match anything that they did together. And then I mean everybody jokes about 118 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.879 like the Henry Cavill upper lip thing where the cgi the mustache off, but 119 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.399 like it's really I think indicative of Warner Brothers approach to this, where they 120 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:50.120 they rush things in, Like they could have just waited for him to finish 121 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:56.279 filming mission impossible and then shave, but they didn't for incomprehensible reasons, and 122 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:01.120 you end up with a movie that's a laughing stock. And then they spent 123 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:07.559 beffillions more money to make it again, Like it's just baffling choices, and 124 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:16.679 like, I fundamentally do not understand why many people love the actual the remake 125 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.200 Zack Snyder Justice League. It's just not my kind of movie. I respect 126 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.519 those who really love it, and that's great for them, and which there 127 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:30.360 are many, but even I would say, well, I mean, are 128 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.360 there many, because it turned out a lot of the people behind the restore 129 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:39.559 the Snyder cut campaign or bots. And I also like, yes, I'm 130 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:43.279 sure that there are plenty of people who watched the movies and enjoyed them, 131 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.919 But I also feel like it's become a very political thing, and so if 132 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.120 you have a particular political stance, you are that's fair in support of Zack 133 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.039 Snyder, and like there's this idea that he's great and his movies can do 134 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:03.480 no wrong and that'll stick it to the woke people somehow it doesn't like it, 135 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.919 just it doesn't I do. I do kind of wonder do you actually 136 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:11.399 like these movies or do you just want to win quote unquote win. My 137 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.360 own circle to friends may have a disproportionately high number of those few folks who 138 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.399 like them, but uh, okay, But either the point that I was 139 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.039 gonna make though, is that I do think that whether you like it or 140 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.960 hate it, the Zach Snyder version of Justice League feels like a much more 141 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:33.279 coherent, cohesive piece of cinema in a way that like the Zack Snyder Josh 142 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.080 Sweden, you know, fused together, absolutely does not. Yes, and 143 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:39.720 we're getting into tangents here, as I knew we would, because we don't 144 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.399 want to talk about the newer stuff. But I think this is already interesting, 145 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.120 and I guess I would turn to you with the because I think one 146 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.159 of the things that we keep talking about is like, does Warner Brothers understand 147 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:56.159 how to put DC on the screen, and that a part of this conversation 148 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.960 is always like, because DC is not Marvel. Marvel has one very specific 149 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:05.399 approach to its world in terms of very relatable characters who go through relatable issues 150 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:11.000 even though they have superpowers. They do their things in Chicago and New York 151 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:18.480 and London, not in Gotham or Metropolis or star City or whatever. I 152 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.360 think people know what the Marvel idea is, and I think people have seen 153 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:28.360 that when DC try to just copy that, it didn't really work. So 154 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.759 if you could sum up one hundred years of a thousand different people's creations in 155 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:37.960 two or three sentences, what would you like if you if you were to 156 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.960 say what a mission statement of a of a DC world on the screen could 157 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.120 be? What would that be? Like? What? What do you think 158 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:48.320 is the thing that Warner Brothers is not understanding about the DC world and its 159 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:52.559 characters in what they've been putting on screen. I mean, again, you 160 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.840 can make a book of this, So give me two or three sentences. 161 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:01.360 Yeah, I think. I mean, there's so much. But I read 162 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.480 a really interesting blog post twenty years ago when I was getting into comics that 163 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:13.480 basically compared the Marvel Universe the DC universe, and it basically made the argument 164 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:18.480 that DC characters are very aspirational and godlike in a lot of ways, even 165 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:20.879 even Batman, Like, you know, people are like, he's a normal 166 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.480 guy. It's like, no, he's a billionaire who is invulnerable to concussions 167 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:30.200 apparently. And the Marvel universe is like Peter Parkers, who are barely making 168 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:35.039 rent and really struggling and are you know, picked on and hated and feared 169 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:43.120 and whatever. And the conclusion that this blogger came to was the DC heroes 170 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:48.480 are about inspiration and Marvel heroes are about consolation. Like DC heroes will inspire 171 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:54.200 you to be better and Marvel heroes will let you know you're not alone. 172 00:12:54.840 --> 00:13:01.120 And I think that's that's oversimplifying for sure, but I think it's it's an 173 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:05.440 interesting idea and it's one that I would want to sort of see disgust and 174 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.000 a full of people who are deciding these movies. So I think to make 175 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.840 you can't make a DC movie universe work unless you understand Superman right, And 176 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.279 to understand Superman, I think you have to step into a sort of heightened 177 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:28.080 reality. You have to step into metaphor much more than you do with the 178 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:35.639 Marvel universe. Like I do think that Clark Kent can be a relatable character, 179 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:43.720 but you have to create a world that it feels plausible that he would 180 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:50.360 exist in, and that is not the sort of gritty Snyder verse world it's 181 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.840 I mean, before we started recording, I told you I've been watching Superman 182 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:00.600 the animated series, and that has this really the way the architecture is designed. 183 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.480 Obviously it's easier with a cartoon, but the way the architecture is the 184 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.679 way the streets are laid out the way that like their ridiculous Daily Planet office, 185 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:13.240 Like no desk or computer has ever looked like that. But it makes 186 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.919 Superman fit into the world because everything is so sunny and bright and colorful. 187 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:26.519 Yeah, and I would love to see a movie that really fully embraces that 188 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.519 aesthetic. And I think that's a world that Superman could exist in. You 189 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:37.720 know what sky High? Sky High is the kind of movie that builds a 190 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.559 universe that this kind of character is believable in. Have you seen it? 191 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.720 I have no idea what you're talking about, Matthew. It is. It's 192 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:52.960 a kids movie that came out like fifteen years ago. I think it's a 193 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:58.279 Disney movie and it's about these kids going to superhero high school. But it 194 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:05.000 is so comic bookie in its language, and it's visual in its visual language 195 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.080 that everything that happens is like it's a cartoon, but it's a really believable 196 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.639 cartoon and a really fun one. Okay, because they build that world. 197 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.279 Well, first of all, that sounds awesome. I'm definitely something called check 198 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.279 out and if other people check that out as well. But you know, 199 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.519 and maybe we can have you get another reason to get Jess back on if 200 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:24.519 you recommend something, you have to come on and talk about it. That's 201 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:30.879 the rule. But the other part of that is that part of what I'm 202 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:37.120 thinking as I hear you talk about this, is that that idea of inspirational 203 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.960 characters, like I'll admit it sounds a little corny to me. It sounds 204 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.840 a little cheesy to me. And part of that's because most of the media 205 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.120 that I've seen for the last twenty years, especially around superhero stuff, has 206 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.159 been much more grim dark. Like grim dark gritty has been the overwhelming theme 207 00:15:56.200 --> 00:16:00.759 of the day. And I love that, and I like back when you 208 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.480 know, Tim Burton first did Batman that felt so refreshing after so much feeling 209 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:08.559 so like Pie in the Sky goodness. And I've just written that garden, 210 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:14.200 you know, goth world all the way through. But I get the idea 211 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:18.200 that it may have been that like ten fifteen years ago, when all people 212 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.240 have seen to want, or at the Hollywood thought all people wanted was grim 213 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:26.000 dark. Like you said, Zack Snyder, trying to fit DC into that, 214 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:30.240 you know, doesn't really work. There does seem to be a lot 215 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.559 of cultural pushback more recently against that kind of thing, and certainly if you're 216 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.480 looking for a if you're looking for grim dark in a Marvel movie, Guardians 217 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.879 of the Galaxy is one of the ones that's gonna be the hardest to find. 218 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:45.960 Like that is a fundamentally hopeful, happy It's a lot darker, I 219 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.639 think than the inspiration. No one in that moves an inspiration, to be 220 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.679 clear, but like it what you're saying, Like again, Zeitgeist and stuff, 221 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.240 Who the hell knows what's going to happen. But it does feel to 222 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.440 me like if we're ever going to get a see world based primarily on that 223 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.519 inspiration, this is a much better time for it than it was ten years 224 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.920 ago or whenever it was Zack Snyder got started. I mean, I would 225 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.440 certainly hope so. And I also think, I mean, you do have 226 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.519 like Gotham still exists in the DC universe. And I am not arguing that 227 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.960 we like no shade to Adam West. I love the Adam West Show. 228 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.960 It's super fun. I'm not arguing we need a movie of that, and 229 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.839 we did need a movie of that. We have the lego movies, Like 230 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.440 it's fine, but that's what I'm talking about with like that really really heightened 231 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.359 reality, Like how do you construct a world in which it makes sense that 232 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:41.119 Metropolis is this utopia and Gotham is this dystopia and they're like forty minutes drive 233 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.400 away from each other, and it's two guys hang out. I mean, 234 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:52.119 thirty years ago, Manhattan and Brooklyn, we're pretty different. The famous quote 235 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.440 that has been I believe it was Danny O'Neill, who's a comics writer, 236 00:17:55.480 --> 00:18:00.960 who originally said it, but it's been misquoted in paraphrase very much is Metropolis 237 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:06.000 is New York City above fourteenth Street on a sunny April day, and Gotham 238 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.480 is New York City below fourteenth Street on a rainy November night. Yeah. 239 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:15.559 That makes total, total sense. So it's doable. Yeah, it's just 240 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:22.160 you have to, I think you have to get away from the idea of 241 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:29.200 some kind of quote unquote realism, and especially from the idea that realism is 242 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:37.200 necessary for relatability. Yeah, because it's a metaphor. But then I come 243 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.720 from musical theater, so of course I'm like, it doesn't have to be 244 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:45.279 believable, it just has to feel real. And it's interestingly because I've always 245 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:49.279 thought that I think one of the most interesting and in some ways creative parts 246 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:55.960 of the DC media world in the last twenty years was the TV show Gotham, 247 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.359 and I will hold that I don't think Gotham is a good show necessarily 248 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.240 by most ways we define it. I think if you watch Gotham once a 249 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:08.359 week, you're going to hate it, because it is the closest thing outside 250 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.759 into the Spider Verse that I've seen to a comic book mentality on screen. 251 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:19.519 Everything in that show just doesn't feel quite right. And if you watch it 252 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.160 once a week, you're never going to get into it. But if you 253 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.400 do stupid things like I did, and you know, binge eight hours of 254 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:30.119 it on a weekend, after two or three episodes, you just live in 255 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.039 that world now, and now all the metaphor works, everything makes sense, 256 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.400 And then you go back and watch a regular TV show and it's just like, 257 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.440 you know, it's like being jetlagged. You know, it's a completely 258 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.400 different thing. And I so that gives me hope. And the other thing 259 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.039 I think you're helping to point out is and this may also be why, 260 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.960 you know, real Batman lovers like myself didn't really love Afflack and all that 261 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.720 not Afflack, the duck at Bent you know what I mean, Affleck, 262 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.799 is that I think part of what makes that version of Batman so good is 263 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.759 how much he is the Loans standalone contrast to all that insport, Like he 264 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.759 is inspiring in his own way. But like you talked about Star Superman the 265 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:18.119 Animated series, I've seen some episodes of that, and I know my understanding 266 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.160 is, like that's kind of the Superman standalone series. Batman the Animated series 267 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.000 was its own stand alone and then both of those continuities are fairly linked to 268 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:32.119 the Justice League animated show that had the voice actors from both of those shows 269 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.440 in them. And to me that you know, Kevin Connor was one of 270 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.240 my absolute favorite Batman's and I always thought part of what made the Batman character 271 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:44.000 work so well is how set apart he is from the rest of the Justice 272 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.599 League, and he's this wonderful contrast to them, and that's why him and 273 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.559 Waller sometimes connect in ways that the others don't. So, yeah, I 274 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:55.200 can see that once everyone is down to that level, Yeah, it kind 275 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.559 of takes away from the power of the contrast to Batman and the way they 276 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.400 can contrast everybody else, and then also takes the light off of them. 277 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:07.640 Oh yeah. And like the one of the tricks that the comics love to 278 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.200 pull is like, here's the whole team. It's usually the Justice League, 279 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.359 sometimes the Team Titans, and they'll do it with Robin. But all of 280 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:18.680 these godlike superpowered beings have been taken out and it's only the regular guy left 281 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.359 and he saves the day. And you can't do it that if they're all 282 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.079 regular guys. So you don't even get to have your Batman's cooler than everybody 283 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.880 else moment if they're all as cool as Batman. But also, like I 284 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:36.079 think each character, each superhero, because you mentioned before, like the DC 285 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.160 universe has Metropolis, it has Gotham, it has Star City, it has 286 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:44.240 Central City. Each superhero is a reflection of their city, and each city 287 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:49.519 is a reflection of their superhero and it's done to best effect with Metropolis and 288 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.920 Gotham, and I guess you could argue it's done with them Askia and Wonder 289 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.519 Woman, although she has lived in like American cities at different times. And 290 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.319 I feel like there are flash comics and flash the TV show gets sometimes that 291 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.920 really like brings that out with Central City and Keystone, like they all sort 292 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:17.519 of exist in their own little heightened pockets of reality, their own little fiefdoms, 293 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.200 and then you combine them. So it's, yes, Batman does stand 294 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.720 apart from the rest of the Justice League, but it's it's more like all 295 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:37.559 of these extremely specific ideas coming together as opposed to like six people who are 296 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.799 the same and then there's Batman. The other thing I was gonna say, 297 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.480 when you're talking about Gotham being really comic bookie, the show that for me 298 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.519 really did that. Like, obviously, you're right, Spider Verse does the 299 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:53.519 best job of translating a comic book to screen, but Legends of Tomorrow, 300 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:59.000 Yeah, I found Legends of Tomorrow to be so like I loved it so 301 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:08.039 much because it embraced the giddy nonsense of comic books so like gleefully and without 302 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:14.319 shame, and was just like, yeah, this is nonsense. We're having 303 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.119 so much fun. We're going to cowboy time, so we're going to go 304 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.559 into our magic clothing room and put on our cowboy outfit so we can go 305 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.720 collect the dinosaur that's here by accident. And I was like, yes, 306 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:30.039 please continue to do this. Yeah, no, it in many ways that 307 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.720 that show always felt to me. It took a little while for me to 308 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:34.640 get that show, and the first I thought the first season was very rough, 309 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.680 But once I got it, it felt a lot like someone had taken 310 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.440 the magic that made Doctor Who's so interesting all of that, like we're just 311 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:49.160 going to bounce around in space and time and then combine it with the superhero 312 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.799 show and made something really fun. See that's so funny to me because the 313 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.720 very first episode, I remember going, oh, this is a comic book, 314 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.039 Like this is actually like the way that the teams and most the pacing 315 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.359 of it is exactly the way it would be in a comic book. They 316 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.799 could have been adapting it. They weren't. There's no analog to it really 317 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:11.359 in the comics, but they literally they could have been adapting a graphic novel 318 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:15.079 page by page and that like it just I was like, Oh, the 319 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.799 people in that room no comics, and yeah, they are having a grand 320 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.319 old time. And then may even part of why it left me because as 321 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.079 I've said, I'm the dirty casual, I'm someone who loves these characters, 322 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.920 loves these stories. I don't really know comic books themselves. There's so much 323 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.240 more we can go into here, and we'll probably bounce back to these larger 324 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:34.279 topics. But let's start going through some of the individual things. And you, 325 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.720 as the person who I think technically still has a start, technically still 326 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:44.200 has a Superman podcast, even though I think the last episode was three years 327 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:48.319 ago. So if you're watching the animated series, maybe make an episode for 328 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.200 us sometimes soon, please, But let's start with the Superman movie that they've 329 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.880 talked about no more. Henry Cavill, who I know you have both, 330 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.440 I know you've had kind of mixed feelings with him a Superman. What's your 331 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.839 take on, first of all this stuff that happened with Cavell and with this 332 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:10.759 new idea of the kind of younger family origin story, not an origin story, 333 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:14.319 but kind of like talking about him and his roots story that they want 334 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.440 to do with Superman. Well, I, first of all, I will 335 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:23.400 say I really liked Cavell himself as Superman. I thought he did a very 336 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.599 good job with very bad material, like he was doing his best. It 337 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:30.359 was not his fault. And he also just literally just looks like a drawing 338 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:36.920 of Superman, like it's like a cartoon. It's ridiculous. I don't blame 339 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.960 him for the fact that I did not enjoy any of the movies that he 340 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:48.839 was in as Superman. So yeah, I am conflicted about his Superman, 341 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.440 but not because of his acting. And you know, we're never going to 342 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.200 know all the ins and outs of what exactly happened, but it seems like 343 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:03.680 he was treated very badly by Warner Brothers, like basically encouraged to believe that 344 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.880 he was coming back and to announce that he was coming back, and he 345 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.680 like filmed that scene the end credit scene for Black Adam and it was a 346 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.720 whole thing. And did he quit the Witcher because he thought he was getting 347 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:19.759 Superman movie Superman money or did he quit the Witcher because he hated being on 348 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:26.519 the Witcher? We don't know, but I mean they humiliated him, like 349 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.960 whether or not. Yeah, he's a millionaire, he's fine, but like 350 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:37.000 it was rude. It was very rude, and so I like, I 351 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.680 kind of feel for him that he's never going to get a chance to show 352 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:48.839 what he can do with a Superman who's written like Superman. But you know, 353 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:55.759 maybe we'll get someone even better. I have dropped my Superman acting expectations 354 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.480 after Tyler Hecklin, who I thought was going to be horrible like, I 355 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:03.599 was like that he's all wrong and he's wonderful as Superman in um Supergirl and 356 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.200 Superman in lois, Like, I think, I think he really gets the 357 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.400 character, the same matchup. I realized that they have a shared continuity there. 358 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.440 Oh yeah, yeah, it's the same sort of the same universe. 359 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.680 I don't really I stopped watching all the dc W shows, so I don't 360 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.480 know they're must extend, but the extended airroverse at this point, right, 361 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.440 it's the same. It's the same Superman across the board. And I think 362 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.599 he's fantastic. Um, so hopefully, you know, I think James Gunn 363 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:34.759 is very good at casting. Um, hopefully we get someone good. UM. 364 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.039 I did like a lot of the stuff that they were saying about, 365 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:44.759 like Superman being about kindness and hope. Um, and uh here, okay, 366 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:53.359 here's a quote from um oh the other guy Peter Saffron. Um, 367 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.680 he is the embodiment of truth, justice and the American way. He is 368 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:02.799 kindness in a world that thinks of kindness is all old fashioned, which yes, 369 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.000 yeah, great job, yeah, please, thank you. Let's not 370 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:11.200 have a movie where he has to learn that killing is bad by killing someone 371 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.240 and I believe it was Peter who also said later, either in that same 372 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.279 interview or a different one, that he was very specific than when he says 373 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.920 the American way. He doesn't mean what that means to people today, and 374 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.720 he doesn't even mean like what America actually was in the fifties. He kind 375 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:30.039 of means the idealized image of America from the nineteen fifties or around then, 376 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.160 you know, which is you can get into all the politics what that means. 377 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.799 But he does, by no means does he mean ra America, you 378 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:42.000 know, American nationalism or anything like that. Yeah, so that's reassuring. 379 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:51.759 I don't really care about Kryptonian stuff. If I were in charge of a 380 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.039 Superman movie, I would make it a workplace romcom. I think that's the 381 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.839 fun stuff. But we're getting that there's going to be an animated show My 382 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.200 Ventures with Superman, I think is the title coming pretty soon? So I 383 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.559 will have my needs met with that. They could do what they want with 384 00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:14.200 the movie. Yeah, I just I find the emphasis on Krypton to be 385 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:21.920 sort of missing the point and focusing on Clark's literal alienation as opposed to his 386 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:27.640 humanity. But you know, it's it's so little information to have at this 387 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:33.480 point that I guess we'll see that. We do know that James Gunn is 388 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:41.880 going to write it and possibly direct. They haven't decided which. He's saying 389 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:49.279 all the right things to me as a writer and a director, I actually 390 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:56.039 find him quite cynical. To me, he's the guy who can never let 391 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:03.240 an honest emotional moment sit. It has to be undercut with a joke immediately, 392 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:10.240 and I'll be interested to see his take. But he's also not someone 393 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:12.640 who I'm like, oh God, please know so right well, And that 394 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.480 may be just a fundamental difference between the two of us and why I'm a 395 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.359 Batman person and you're a Superman person, Because to me, I find that 396 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:23.839 the honest emotional moment that doesn't eventually have the joke just feels so sacrin and 397 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:27.720 fake to me. That that's why to me, guns expression of uh, 398 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.640 you know, emotion feels so perfect. But I get that, and I 399 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.799 think that'll be an okay bersuaye. I mean, yeah, well not the 400 00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:41.480 billionaire part, but yes, yes, exactly so. But that's a good 401 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.759 segue to go to Superman. The I know, been your favorite segue into 402 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.160 even more so than Batman my favorite part of the universe who's also getting their 403 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:53.119 own content, Because yes, there's all inspirational, but is it. I'm 404 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.720 a very cynical person, and I'm a person who when you show me a 405 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:03.240 whole bunch of inspirational, larger than life role model figures, I want to 406 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:06.200 believe it. But a part of me is going to side with a person 407 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.480 who's like, poke, poke, poke, are you real? Should I 408 00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.000 have some kryptonite just waiting just in case you go bad? So let's talk 409 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.160 about Amanda Waller getting her own show, because I feel like that that is 410 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.480 the role she kind of has always played in that universe, is of the 411 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.559 like, sure, you all say you're these great role models, but I'm 412 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.119 going to have everything ready in case you go bad and maybe trying to control 413 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:29.720 you're just in case. Anyway, what's your take on on Waller getting her 414 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.480 own show? Well, I do want to say you might actually in this 415 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:38.119 analogy be Lois Lane. That's fair because Lois is the one who's like, 416 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:44.599 this can't be real? Wait is this real? Yeah? So you may 417 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:48.759 fall in love with an alien. I'm just you know, it may happen 418 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:52.920 to this day. The first instance of pure romance that I ever saw was 419 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.640 being four years old and watching Christopher Reeve take her take Margot Kitty flying on 420 00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:01.759 that horrible blue screen that looked so revolutionary at the time in that original movie. 421 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.279 So who knows. I'm ready to be taken to the top of the 422 00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:09.960 umpire stabling. But yeah, I think. I mean, we've talked about 423 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.519 the I get I guess it's part of the DCU. I feel like the 424 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:25.000 Susie Squad EU is sort of its own thing. But we've talked about Viola 425 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:30.039 Davis's version of Amanda Waller will put it that way, And I mean she's 426 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:31.599 tremendous in the role, because she's tremendous in every role. There's a reason 427 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:37.839 she has an egot. Now, I think she's amazing. I prefer Waller 428 00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:46.839 as someone who is ruthless in her pursuit of what she believes to be the 429 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:53.839 right thing. And I find that modern takes on her and it's the the 430 00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:00.000 movies and TV as well as the comics do this too, tend to position 431 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:05.119 and her is more of a villain, which I don't That's not my preference. 432 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.200 Yeah, but it's all very well written and very well acted. So 433 00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:13.160 like you know, with all these characters, like, there's a range of 434 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.960 how they can be portrayed, and so while I would rather see her as 435 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.759 like I said, like this character who does the really hard things when the 436 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:24.440 hard things need to be done, and you often just want to shake her, 437 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.920 but she's doing what she thinks is right for her country in the world. 438 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:36.559 I can't really fall like it's been successful and she's she does. The 439 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.880 character is great, the acting is great, the writing is great. So 440 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.240 yeah, I mean, I think I think this should be a very good 441 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.279 show. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be. Yeah, I 442 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:50.319 think I agree with you. I have enjoyed Viola Davis. I think she's 443 00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:54.400 awesome in the part. I you know, no no shade against the younger, 444 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:59.680 more conventionally attractive actresses who've played her in other things like in the ar 445 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.880 But I really appreciate that that, you know, Violet Davis, who is 446 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:07.679 absolutely gorgeous and magnetic, but still is an older, heavier woman than a 447 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:13.039 lot of the off people you often see as powerful women on screen. It 448 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:17.159 has gravitas, yes, exactly, exactly, and um, but yeah, 449 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.960 to me, my favorite image of Amanda Waller is from that animated world we 450 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:27.679 were talking about where she is. I think like that that Amanda Waller to 451 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:30.639 me, wouldn't just you know, shoot twenty of her own people because it's 452 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:35.079 going to help her get away and keep her secret. But she's the one 453 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:37.360 who, like I said, like she and Batman will see eye to eye 454 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.000 when Superman goes rogue and all of a sudden, they both have kryptonite that 455 00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.119 they just conveniently have been having with them for any purpose, you know, 456 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:51.519 and like there's so much kryptonite on Earth. That planet was really far away, 457 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.719 you know, comments do what the college should be the commic to do. 458 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.519 But but yeah, so I think you're right, it's not it's not. 459 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.719 I would love it if they leaned more into that, more her as 460 00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:07.639 antagonist to the Justice League types and anti hero type, but where like you 461 00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:13.199 don't like what she's doing and you disagree with her, but you understand her 462 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.960 point of view and maybe she's right in a way you don't want to accept. 463 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.440 Like that to me is the ideal, and I wish they would get 464 00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:23.199 there. But whatever the hell they do, it's Amanda Waller as Violet Davis, 465 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:29.000 and I'm going to be happy with that exactly. Yeah, especially because 466 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.639 you're right, and this is kind of I think one of the overall questions 467 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:36.559 I have is like they'd I don't know what the hell the continuity is. 468 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.679 I mean, the whole point apparently was the Flash movie was going to be 469 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:45.039 the thing that gave us all the explanation of the continuity. But then the 470 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:47.880 main star of that movie has completely self destructed and a mental health crisis that 471 00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:51.960 I wish all the best for them, but I also understand that they should 472 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.480 be facing some consequences for the people they've heard, but also like, what 473 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:58.840 the hell do you do with that movie when that's the lynchpin of everything in 474 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:05.119 theory. I can't believe they're still releasing it. I don't get it. 475 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:12.199 But but so that being said, because you're right, I think if I 476 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:15.719 if I had a favorite overall piece of continuity in the DC that's been on 477 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.599 screen in the last twenty years or so, my first choice would have been, 478 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.920 um, the Arrow Verse and all that, But quickly coming up second, 479 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:29.400 maybe even passing it, is now the Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Birds 480 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:35.000 of Prey, like mini continuity, um, because all that's sort of full 481 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:37.679 verse. Yeah, I think that. That's that's approcly fair way to put 482 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:39.719 it. You've seen Peace. I think we talked about Peacemaker right now. 483 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:44.599 It's so much better than have you not seen it? I haven't seen it? 484 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:49.079 Okay, eventually, I told you I'm watching Superman, the animated series. 485 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:52.639 I have twenty years to catch up on. That's fair. That's fair. 486 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.480 It is. It is very different, and it is so much better 487 00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:59.000 than it has any right to be. Um, I've heard really good things. 488 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.320 That's the show again in twenty forty three, and we can talk. 489 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:06.800 We'll do anyway. So those are two things we're not going to get to 490 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:10.400 all ten in in in the hour, so they want this episode to be 491 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.880 well, they touching them briefly. But it's my show, so I get 492 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.800 to talk about my favorites. Let's keep going down that road. The Brave 493 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:23.360 and the Bold Batman, which you know my frequent podcast partner Paul has been 494 00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:27.559 telling me about The Brave and the Bowld for a long time. I think 495 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.360 there's an animated show by that name. I think there's also a comic book 496 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:35.000 run. Um. Yeah, I can't help hearing it without thinking it's a 497 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.239 Batman soap opera because it just sounds so much like you know, The Brave 498 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.679 and the Beautiful God I wish um. But so, yeah, what is 499 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.880 the Brave and the Bowl about and what do you think about it coming to 500 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.280 screen? So The Brave and the Bold was originally a comic book design. 501 00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.840 It was just it was a team up book. It was every issue, 502 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:53.239 it's going to be two different heroes. It could be anybody. It could 503 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:58.199 be a Flash and Green Arrow, it could be Aquaman and Swamp Thing, 504 00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.360 it could be like whoever. Eventually it became specifically a Batman team up book, 505 00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:07.079 So every issue is Batman and dead Man, Batman and the Phantom Stranger 506 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:13.360 whoever they have. Since it was eventually canceled, DC has since revived it. 507 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:16.599 Sometimes it's a Batman and Whoever projects. Sometimes it's just a team up 508 00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:22.440 book. But it is sort of an iconic phrase in the DC universe. 509 00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:29.840 Like there's one of my favorite comics ever is Green Arrow Quiver. When Oliver 510 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:34.800 Queen Green Arrow comes back from the dead and he's running around being resurrected, 511 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.440 and Batman is like has to get involved, and they decide to go off 512 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:45.480 on a mission together and Oliver ver says something along the lines of like, 513 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:49.039 I could use some backup if you're feeling a little brave and bold. And 514 00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:51.440 it doesn't make any sense that he would say that because they don't know the 515 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.840 titles of their comics. But it's still very cute. And then yes, 516 00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:59.719 there was in two thousand and eight, there was a Batman cartoon called Batman 517 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.639 The Even the Bold, which is very much sort of a throwback to nineteen 518 00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:08.039 forties fifties aesthetic. It's very fun, really really cute, highly recommended. 519 00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:15.480 So yeah, it is a generic term but also strongly associated with Batman. 520 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:20.119 The movie is going to be a Batman in Robin movie, which we have 521 00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:25.239 not had since the nineties. I remember seeing that movie in theaters. It's 522 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:30.559 terrible. I love it. And the Robin that they're using is Damian Wayne, 523 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:36.679 who is the current Robin. He's the fifth Robin in continuity. He's 524 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.280 Bruce Wayne's biological son. His mother is Talia Elgol, who is the daughter 525 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:45.159 of ros Algol. He was raised by the League of Assassins until he was 526 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:50.480 ten, which is when Bruce met him, and I love him. He's 527 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:55.079 one of my favorite characters. Like, he's a horrible brand. He is 528 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:01.239 murdered many people, but he's trying to be better. Bruce has absolutely no 529 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:07.519 idea how to parent him. It's a disaster. I just think this is 530 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:12.440 going to be so much fun. Like it's I cannot wait to see this 531 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:16.039 movie. I cannot wait to see James Gunn's take on these characters. I'm 532 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:21.119 very excited for this. Yeah, that it does sound awesome, and I 533 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:28.199 will say the TV show Titans has a lot of issues. The writing is 534 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:32.159 incredibly and consistent. I think it veers back and forth between trying to be 535 00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:36.960 that larger than life comic book thing but also trying to be very grounded in 536 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.559 ways that just makes none of it work. But I think some of the 537 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:45.760 best parts is that it explores in ways that my understandings have explored in great 538 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:51.400 depth on page, but not really very often on screen. You know just 539 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.800 what a dysfunctional family the back Family is and how all that plays out. 540 00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:02.719 And in the show, that primary dynamic is between Dick Grayson, who has 541 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.719 left Batman. The show is kind of about him becoming Nightwing, but a 542 00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:12.119 big part of that is about him having all of these like very mixed feelings 543 00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:16.800 about Bruce and both very angry that Bruce made him into Robin and having a 544 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.880 long desire to a strong desire to reject that and to talk about how abusive 545 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.800 that was to him as a child, while also then watching um, it's 546 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.960 not Chuck Todd, it's Jon Jason Todd, thank you as the new like 547 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:36.239 he I love being Robin, I love being working with that man, and 548 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.480 he's both like, oh God, I have to rescue this kid and oh 549 00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:44.119 god, this kid's a total snot. I want to smack him, and 550 00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:47.039 oh god, did I really mean that little to Daddy? That did I 551 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.840 really mean that little to Bruce? That Bruce has replaced me so quick? 552 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.519 And I wish it had gotten better dialogue because the moments when it is good, 553 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:59.800 it is so heartwrenching and shows you that even the kind of larger than 554 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:02.280 versions can I mean, I'm someone who's had problems with my father and I 555 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:06.320 could relate to an awful lot of it, even though not the same. 556 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.760 And so yeah, I'm excited to see that story. I've heard so much 557 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:14.519 about Damien. I really do hope, though, they commit to that larger 558 00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:17.360 bat story, because yes, I think him and Damien would be great. 559 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:22.320 But getting to see the people who were within the family and the people who 560 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.039 have left the family or are kind of on like different terms. And we've 561 00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:30.239 seen some version of this with all the Red Hood stuff where Jason Todd often 562 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.920 who you know, kind of goes rogue and all that that whole set of 563 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.760 stories. But even leaving that out, I just think there's so much room 564 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:42.880 to explore of you know, Batman has raised this little army of kids to 565 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.679 do what he wants and what has that done to them? Was that done 566 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:49.559 to him and all that together? Oh? Yeah, absolutely? And like 567 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:54.199 the first thing that every comic book fan that I know said after this was 568 00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:59.400 announced was okay, but are they going to have had the other Robins? 569 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.000 Like when day me and shows up, is he going to be Robin number 570 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.800 one or is he going to be Robin number five? And we don't know, 571 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:12.199 we don't have any information on that. To me, the character doesn't 572 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.119 really make sense if he's Robin number one. But that doesn't mean they could 573 00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:21.960 cut out They'll probably cut out Steph because they always want to cut out the 574 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:34.440 girl. But so much of Bruce and Damien's relationship revolves around he's the biological 575 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:37.320 son, but he's not the song that Bruce chose or seems to want. 576 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:42.760 Like literally recently in the comics, Bruce said to him, Damian, you're 577 00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.639 my son, and I love you, but sometimes I don't like you very 578 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:51.440 much. Damien's fourteen. Who says that to a fourteen year old? And 579 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:54.760 it like Damien quotes it back to him later because he's, yeah, like, 580 00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:02.159 what the hell? And I obviously like, if you find out that 581 00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:05.599 you have a ten year old son who is raised by assassins, it's going 582 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:09.519 to be a fraught relationship no matter how many Circus orphans you've adopted. But 583 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:19.119 I just feel like knowing that there have been others and having their legacy to 584 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:28.760 live up to is so it adds so much to Damien's character because he feels 585 00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:32.440 like he has so much to prove. I'm sure in the comics, is 586 00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:37.440 there someone else who is a Robin at the time that Damien comes along or 587 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:39.760 is there? Yeah, you can see that being a whole other thing of 588 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:45.159 like, Okay, it's Tim, and Damien pretty much immediately tries to murder 589 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:52.440 him. It's very funny. And then like so it's Tim, Damien tries 590 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.239 to murder him, does not succeed, and then Bruce dies, it turns 591 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:59.599 out he's not actually dead, he's lost in time. So Dick becomes Batman 592 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:00.559 and he's like, I don't know what to do with this ten year old 593 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:04.719 kid. Um, I guess you're Robin now. And Tim's like he tried 594 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:08.480 to murder me, and Dick is like, sorry, bro, it's very 595 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.599 good. I'm both excited for this movie. And I have no idea why 596 00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:15.880 this isn't a TV show. It should be a I mean, like you 597 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:20.960 said, it's a soap opera. It should be a TV show that runs 598 00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.920 for twenty years. And you have like seven different actors playing Alfred over the 599 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.039 years because they all leave. I like that. I like that well, 600 00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:30.239 And so that's that would be the last question I'd tie in with, and 601 00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:34.360 I can move on to some of the other things. Is I don't remember 602 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:36.920 if you and I've talked about it and you may have been a guest on 603 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:40.280 my podcast, which because I completely apologize actually at Sofia, did you and 604 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:46.079 I have you and I talked about the patents in Batman Confession. You haven't 605 00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:52.400 seen it? I haven't seen it, okay, Okay. I literally got 606 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:57.719 an HBO Max login so that I could watch it, and then instead I 607 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:00.519 watched all of Batman the animated series. Okay, well I was gonna do 608 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.960 all that off air, but I'm gonna leave this on air because it's kind 609 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:07.119 of hilarious. I won't ask you about why the patentson isn't going to be 610 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:09.320 that Batman. When you watch it, I'll be really curious your thoughts on 611 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:13.840 it, because I do think it it has a lot of the dark gritty 612 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:15.800 but also a lot more of the hope that I think you're talking about, 613 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.719 and I'll be very curious your thoughts on it. No, I really want 614 00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:21.800 to watch it. I do think that DC is afraid, like if they 615 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.400 have a project that works, like the Batman and Joker, they're afraid to 616 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:29.719 tie it into other stuff because that will break it. Yeah, and so 617 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.440 they're like, wellich is it's working, we just don't don't touch it. 618 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.760 And frankly, as the other thing, go ahead. Oh the other thing 619 00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:39.559 I was going to say about Damien real quick. If you're not familiar with 620 00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:44.239 the character, I highly recommend these Supersun's animated movie that just came out. 621 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:49.360 It's very It's Damien and his best friend, who's John Kent, Superman's son, 622 00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.639 and it's delightful. It's a really really good take on both characters. 623 00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.519 Interesting, Okay, I don't think check that out. And just what we're 624 00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:00.559 saying for about that continuity and stuff, maybe that's the best way of understanding 625 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:04.360 this is I think people are looking to Marvel as the model, where there 626 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:09.079 is the Marvel Universe and then there's little weird stuff that Sony does off to 627 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:15.440 the side, but the Marvel stuff is all part of the MCU and and 628 00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:19.719 I think a lot of people, myself included, are thinking, Okay, 629 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:23.840 what gun is going to do is bring everything DC like, wrap the big 630 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:28.480 arms out, bring it all under the tent. And maybe actually the way 631 00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:30.840 they're going to do is something a little more news, a little more open 632 00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:36.360 of there's going to continue to be the Batman universe over there with Pattinson, 633 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.960 because that is awesome. They're going to continue to be the Peacemaker Universe and 634 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:42.480 the Suicide Squad, and maybe that's gonna tie in. Maybe that's not that 635 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.360 continue to be all this other stuff, and then there's going to be this 636 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:51.599 particular version of a set of characters who all tie in together. And like 637 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.039 some of the recent podcasts I've been doing have been about a lot of the 638 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:59.400 DC animated movies, which I think are phenomenal, not all of them, 639 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:01.679 but like we just an episode on Long Halloween, which is one of my 640 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:06.480 favorites, and none of those fit into a single unified cannon and they don't 641 00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:09.599 have to, and maybe that's the best way to understand what they're doing. 642 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:14.559 Yeah, And I mean, I think it's important to remember that the MCU 643 00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:19.559 is a very relatively recent development. I mean, we've had superhero movies. 644 00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:24.079 We've had superheroes on screen since like nineteen forty. We've had superhero movies like 645 00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:30.840 Big feature film since nineteen seventy eight. We haven't had crossovers, let alone 646 00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:38.920 a shared universe until twenty twelve. So the idea that like the MCU is 647 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:44.559 the way that you do that and everybody, I mean, remember when Universal 648 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.679 tried to do a Universal Monster movie universe. God, Like, maybe we 649 00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:52.199 don't like. Look, I'm a DC Universe fan. I love the shared 650 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.920 universe. That's why I read the comics. I love that these characters interact, 651 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:04.079 but we don't have to do that. Like Christopher Reeve did not hang 652 00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.880 out with Michael Keaton and that was okay. Actually, yeah. And I 653 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:12.199 also think that like Batman and Superman are very iconic in the way that like 654 00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:19.360 many people are fans of the characters without really consuming the comics, but even 655 00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:22.719 a lot of the movies and TV because you just you kind of know their 656 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:27.679 deal anyway. So you can do these really easy standalones and it's not like 657 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:31.199 where you had to kind of explain to everybody who's thor like you don't have 658 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.519 to tell me who Wonder Woman is. It's in the name, I got 659 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.920 it. Yeah, I think I think it's a really good point. So 660 00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:40.599 getting back to these projects, we want hope, we want inspiration, and 661 00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:44.719 especially we can find that, I think on a place called Paradise Island, 662 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:47.039 where we're far from the rules of men and so we don't have all the 663 00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:52.599 patriarchy and all the nonsense, but we do have Game of Thrones internal politics. 664 00:49:52.599 --> 00:50:01.239 Apparently, what's your take on Paradise lost by Let's see, we've got 665 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:12.639 two male executives and they the article that I the Variety article that I read 666 00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:20.440 announcing this compared it to a comic by two male comic book creators. I 667 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:25.519 don't want to see a bunch of sis men's take on an all female utopia, 668 00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:29.599 and I think their whole like they've said, like it's about like the 669 00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:37.079 dark secrets behind Themiscia, I don't want that, and like I the degree 670 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:43.400 to which that is missing the point, like Paradise Island, comes from a 671 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:54.119 very long history of concepts of an all female utopia from feminist writing. It 672 00:50:54.159 --> 00:51:00.039 goes back literally sanctuaries and to be like, ah, there's the dark CD 673 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:08.920 underbelly like Game of Thrones. No, no, no, there's it goes 674 00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:13.159 back to the stuff I was saying when we started recording seventeen hours ago, 675 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:19.320 like it's there's metaphor happening here. It's not just like wow, these these 676 00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.760 ladies are strong and they were togas they are a metaphor. There is a 677 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:29.880 deeper idea that is happening. And to be like, actually it's corrupt is 678 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:32.880 offensive? Yeah? Yeah, it does seem to me that was the one 679 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:37.599 that really stood out as really totally missing the point, and not only just 680 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:42.079 the kind of idea of DC that we're talking about, but of what that 681 00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:45.920 was all meant to be. You know, like you said, this idea 682 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:51.800 of kind of the women utopia that goes back centuries Bill Marston, who created 683 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:54.039 Wonder Woman, he was very much a devote of that. I think we 684 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:59.000 can with today's eyes look back and sort of have some like, you know, 685 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:01.679 to some extent, there's a lot of kind of like his ideas of 686 00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:06.039 male submission, female dominance that that get tied into it. And there's sort 687 00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:08.440 of a little bit of like how often are they having pillow fights in his 688 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:14.239 mind on this world all the time? Yeah, but like but still it 689 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:16.360 is so clearly supposed to be that kind of place of perfection, and so 690 00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:22.000 that's part of why the idea of why Diana would leave that is so interesting, 691 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.039 because it is a place of perfection, but you want to say, 692 00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.840 a place of like, you know, of not stuckness, but you know 693 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:35.960 of like sameness in some remords unchanging. Yeah. And to me, what 694 00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.280 they're doing with this represents what I think is worst about the whole dark, 695 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:45.519 gritty idea, which is the idea that happiness is boring, that you that 696 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.960 the only thing that's interesting is trouble, you know, And this is why 697 00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.159 you so rarely get just like a romantic couple who gets together and just stays 698 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:58.360 together for a couple of seasons or a couple of movies, because we always 699 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.880 want to see the fight, we always and that's such a romantic team. 700 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.440 It's also teams, you know, we can't ever just see the Avengers be 701 00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:07.400 the Avengers. They have to break up and they get back together and say 702 00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:12.760 anything with all these groups and you know, is there a movie? Is 703 00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:16.440 there a show? Is there? Is there ten episodes worth of content of 704 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:22.039 everything on them Ascara being perfect and wonderful? Probably not? But does that 705 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:24.599 mean you have to take like, I still think you could have lots of 706 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:31.119 other stuff about you know, you know other you know, some others maybe 707 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:36.159 following Diana's example and leaving and how does that affect things? And they're being 708 00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:42.480 you know, shifts and changes. But without this idea of it seems that 709 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:45.800 like, and here I'm probably contradicting myself because I know I've said for a 710 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:50.719 while of like, I just have trouble believing that idea of Superman being this 711 00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:57.360 perfect, perfect being. But I think Themiscara is said to be part of 712 00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:00.039 that For me is that I have so much trouble believing that a person raised 713 00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:05.639 on this earth, in this world could not fall into some of the toxic 714 00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:08.639 masculinity or any other stuff that is just around us in this world. Them 715 00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:14.360 Ascara is fundamentally supposed to be a place separate from that. And it's not 716 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:16.280 that I think men are the cause of all evil in the world by any 717 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:22.239 means, but that I do think that to take this idea of them ascara 718 00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.360 and just throw that instead of saying, so, what would life, what 719 00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:30.639 would the conflicts be like? When it's totally different from what we can understand 720 00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:34.280 for it to be men kind of saying no, no, no, your 721 00:54:34.360 --> 00:54:37.880 world of women isn't It just feels I feel like I'm speaking over you now 722 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:40.760 because I'm just kind of repeating it. But I share the upsetness of this 723 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:44.840 is not a man's place to say, Oh, actually, your female utopia 724 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.719 has all the same problems we do. Oh yeah, And I think that's 725 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:52.400 it. I agree with you that it's taking something that is meant to be 726 00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:54.800 good and happy in making it ced just for the sake of being ced. 727 00:54:54.960 --> 00:55:01.760 But it's also taking something. Sometimes you're not the audience for something, you 728 00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:08.760 know. Sometimes it's taking a utopia that it is cis men taking a utopia 729 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:15.880 that was not created for them and dismantling it, and that feels very much 730 00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:22.960 like co opting something that doesn't belong to them, just as if you know, 731 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:27.800 I were as if I were to be like, I'm going to show 732 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:34.199 how Black Panther is actually bad, Like no, wow, no, like 733 00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:38.280 these there are things that are meant to bring, like we said before, 734 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:47.239 inspiration and or solace to groups that aren't you, and to like, I'm 735 00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:51.039 not telling anybody what they can or can't can't write. You can write whatever 736 00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:53.880 you want, but it just it just kind of seems like a jerk move 737 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:59.440 to be like I'm gonna I'm gonna kick sand on that, I'm gonna mess 738 00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:01.960 that up. You don't get to have that. And I think the Black 739 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:07.239 Panther example is actually really perfect because Ryan Coogler was very clear the writer and 740 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:12.840 director of that movie that when he took that character, he wanted to play 741 00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:16.199 with the character a little bit and expose some of the concerns that he that 742 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:22.360 that within a black community could be raised about that. And again not to 743 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.800 say that you have to be in that community to raise the concerns, but 744 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:29.000 I think the fact that it was him telling that story, listening to other 745 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:34.800 black voices telling that story, and then within that saying what are the conflicts 746 00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:37.440 we can raise within that? Like, I think that could be give me 747 00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:43.800 that kind of storytelling for Themaskara, I think could be really interesting, you 748 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:49.440 know. And and I also want to caution myself the less to you, 749 00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:54.360 but just to me, this is also like two paragraphs in a idea for 750 00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:58.239 something that's years in the making, So it's entirely possible. I think that 751 00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:01.960 they at some point realize, oh wait, maybe Patty Patty Jennings and some 752 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:07.199 other people should like come in and and have some ideas and we should shut 753 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:09.159 up and just write the checks. I don't know what's going to actually happen. 754 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:12.880 Yeah, I'm just saying a little. We have to go on. 755 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:19.719 There are some concerns, right and like I mean again, like the what 756 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.559 you're saying about Ryan Coogler, like and that is his place to write that 757 00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:28.199 story. I am not the person to write about the corruption of Wakanda, 758 00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:31.000 because that would be messed up and racist of me, Like that wouldn't be 759 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:37.079 okay. Like it's meant to be a black utopia, or at least if 760 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:43.880 not a utopia, then a place that has never been touched by colonialism or 761 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.360 never been the victims of colonialism. So if I was like, but actually 762 00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:52.360 they are the colonizers, like wow, out of line, that is not 763 00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:54.840 the story for me to write. So it's not to say that there can't 764 00:57:54.880 --> 00:58:00.440 be stories about corruption in Themiscia, and there have been stories about like dark 765 00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:06.519 secrets and flaws that actually there are a couple of different stories that DC is 766 00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:12.280 publishing right now about that they're written by women and the vibe is totally different. 767 00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:15.239 And you're right, maybe this project will be written by women and directed 768 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:20.119 by women and it won't be an issue. But honestly, if I you 769 00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.039 told me to pick out of these ten projects with one I think is the 770 00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:25.840 least likely to be made, it would be this. I don't think this 771 00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.400 is ever going to be filmed. I would be shocked. This is gonna 772 00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:32.320 have slight spoilers for an episode and I think season two, possibly season one 773 00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:36.320 of Harley Quinn, So skip ahead if you don't want to hear that. 774 00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:38.440 Sorry, Jess, your captive audience. Boys, all right there. I 775 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:43.280 feel like all these saying has been perfectly done already because there was an episode 776 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:46.880 of Harley Quinn where one of the characters is getting ready to go get married, 777 00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:52.880 and so they have a bachelor party, a bachelorette party on Themiscara and 778 00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:57.000 Themiscara has been taken over by a girl boss who wants to touristize the whole 779 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.199 thing, and so it's just making it this like tourist destination and for bachelorette 780 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:05.719 parties and girl boss trips and making hercules dance for everybody and stuff like that, 781 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:08.800 and it's okay, that's amazing. It's fantastic, and it's hilarious, 782 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:12.280 and yeah, it's the kind of thing where you can see someone like being 783 00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:15.360 like, this is so perfect, let's monetize it. Like a lot of 784 00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:20.480 things with a Harley Quinn show, they're all so far off the park, 785 00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:24.039 but yet so like there's such brilliant metaphor in it while it being like gross 786 00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:29.519 out and horrible and hilarious. And that episode especially is just chef's kiss. 787 00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:31.599 Let's get to some of these others, especially some of the ones that I 788 00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:36.159 and so I assume my extension a lot of my fans that you probably are 789 00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:37.559 more knowledgeable than that I am, but no, it's my show. I 790 00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:45.800 get to claim it. Probably don't know much about what's the authority. So 791 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:51.239 the Authority. I actually am not super familiar with them. They are a 792 00:59:51.280 --> 01:00:00.239 team. They were originally published by, so DC had like separate imprints that 793 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.119 were not at all connected to the DCU. So the Authority originally came out 794 01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:12.480 of I want to say Wild and it was a separate universe like not. 795 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:17.440 And I don't mean a separate universe like you know, Grant Gustin is the 796 01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:21.920 flash over here and Ezra Miller is the flash over there. I mean like 797 01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:28.519 it was unrelated in any way. And they were very like it was the 798 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:32.760 early two thousands of Super like edgy and dark and everybody's wearing black leather and 799 01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:37.719 they kill people. So it should do very well as a movie because that's 800 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:40.679 what I mean, that's what Warner Brothers knows how to do. That's what 801 01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:44.679 they want to do. That's what a large part of the audience wants. 802 01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.840 Like I think it's going to appeal to people who like Punisher and you know, 803 01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:52.079 the boys and all that stuff, and that's I mean. The thing 804 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:57.320 is, I don't care about the Authority, So you're not going to break 805 01:00:57.320 --> 01:01:00.159 my heart if you make an authority movie that I don't enjoy, because the 806 01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:04.039 way that it would break my heart to see a Supergirl movie that I don't 807 01:01:04.119 --> 01:01:07.480 enjoy because like, I just think it's it's a smart move. It'll translate 808 01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:15.159 really well to what we tend to see on screen. But the interesting thing 809 01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:22.800 about it is that the team actually has these characters Midnighter and Apollo, who 810 01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:25.719 are meant to be analogs for Batman and Superman. Like there's the guy who's 811 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.159 in black leather and he's really gritty and dark and growley, and he's good 812 01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:36.559 at karate. And then there's the godlike being powered by sunlight and they are 813 01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:42.599 married. They're a couple O nice, and so these characters have Now a 814 01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:45.400 wild Storm doesn't exist anymore. These characters are just in the regular DC universe. 815 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:49.960 So sometimes you just see Midnighter and Batman next to each other and it's 816 01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:54.039 like, why are there two of you but one doesn't have ears? Like 817 01:01:55.119 --> 01:02:01.559 it's it's very weird, but I sort of love the idea of like here 818 01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:07.639 you go, like the darkest, grittiest, most violent movie. These guys 819 01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.920 are husbands. They're the main characters. Like, yeah, there's something very 820 01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:22.280 I don't know, it's it's unexpected, it's gonna I think make it's going 821 01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:24.079 to make a lot of people who would never see a movie with gay characters 822 01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:28.800 see a movie with gay characters. Yeah, and hey, I said, 823 01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:31.559 this is when I wrote about all these projects for book Riot. But DC 824 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:37.480 can finally beat Marvel at something. Yeah, they can have main gay characters 825 01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:42.000 in a movie and not just one of the Russo's being like my husband died, 826 01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:46.199 who was sad and them being like we're groundbreaking. Yeah, yeah, 827 01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:49.880 I hear that, And I think in some ways, Hey, I do 828 01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:52.360 think like, even if we're in a world where there are a lot of 829 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:54.719 Superman type people, I still want someone who's a contrast. You know, 830 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:59.239 one of my favorite Superman stories is Kingdom Come, where he has to deal 831 01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:01.960 with this, like he's kind of taking on more and more power and dealing 832 01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:05.639 with superheroes. We're getting out of control and what do you do with all 833 01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:07.960 that. The other thing, though, is that, Okay, so this 834 01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:14.960 is a kind of ragtag bunch of anti hero sort of heroes who most of 835 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.880 the general public knows very little about who we're going to get introduced in this 836 01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:22.599 movie. That will be about them kind of being like the not great people 837 01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:27.159 but who still do good things in the end. That's Guardians of the Galaxy, 838 01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:30.199 and that's the Suicide Squad that like that is a recipe that we know 839 01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:34.480 that gun can do really well. So absolutely, and as well the fact 840 01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:37.400 that, like you said, it's I've always thought Marvel had it someone easier 841 01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:39.599 that for most of us, I didn't care about Captain America. So if 842 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:43.480 you gave me a bad Captain America movie, who cares. But when you 843 01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:45.840 gave me a good one, I didn't have thirty years of expectations to compare 844 01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:52.199 it to exactly. So okay. So for the next one, I want 845 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:54.559 to see how well you are plugged into what other people are saying about these 846 01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:58.760 things. I'm going to read you a quote from a really good author who 847 01:03:58.840 --> 01:04:01.000 wrote an incredible piece about this, and tell me if you can guess which 848 01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:04.840 project they're talking about. And they wrote, this is the movie I'd be 849 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:08.920 most excited for if I if I had any faith, it would actually get 850 01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:19.519 written. Oh that I think the names m Jennifer Jennifer. I am quoting 851 01:04:19.599 --> 01:04:24.360 Jessica to Jessica, I'd be using it. She wrote a great article for 852 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:27.199 Book Riot. The link will begin it. And that's how you started to 853 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:30.360 describe Booster Gold. So yes, who is Booster Gold? And why would 854 01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.480 you love to see his film? And why do you not think it's going 855 01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:39.000 to happen? Booster Gold, My darling, Booster Gold is the DC character 856 01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:44.639 that I relate to the most strongly. Um. He is a college football 857 01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:51.000 player from the twenty twenty fifth century, just like me, who gets kicked 858 01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:57.159 out for he's a college football player. He gets kicked off the team for 859 01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:00.599 betting on his own games. So he steals a bunch of future tech and 860 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:05.679 comes back to now to be a superhero and start his life over. He 861 01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:13.760 is just an attention hound glory hog. He wants to be famous. He 862 01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:19.440 like in many DC comics, will just show characters eating like Booster cereal or 863 01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:26.519 brushing our teeth with like Booster pace, like he is branded from like to 864 01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:32.320 Hell and back. He just loves attention and desperately needs validation, and under 865 01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:38.480 that is a really good person trying to make up for his wrongs. He 866 01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:44.559 of course first showed up in the eighties because loud and flashy, desperate for 867 01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:49.599 attention and willing to take endorsements, and like they he was literally you know 868 01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:53.639 how like Superman is the Man of Tomorrow and Man of Seal whatever. He 869 01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:58.320 was the capitalist crusader. Oh my god, it's so perfect. The eighties, 870 01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:03.079 just completely ridiculous. Please tell me he had like Lex Corp Written on 871 01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:06.639 the back of his cape or something like that, like he would have if 872 01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:13.199 he and Lex didn't absolutely hate each other, like they they have bad blood 873 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:15.119 right from the beginning. But he and Superman also don't like each other. 874 01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:19.639 He's very obnoxious and he just wants everybody to pay attention to him all the 875 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:29.519 time, and I feel that very deeply. So. He's also had a 876 01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:32.599 long running friendship with Blue Beatle, not the one who the movie is going 877 01:06:32.599 --> 01:06:39.559 to be about, but the guy before him, So like their relationship. 878 01:06:39.559 --> 01:06:43.599 They were very much like the Abbot and Costello of the DC universe for a 879 01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:47.599 long time. He's a comedy character, like he has always been intended to 880 01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:55.079 be a funny character. I think James Gunn like he's He's a perfect character 881 01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:57.960 for James Gunn, and James Gunn is a perfect writer for Booster because he 882 01:06:58.039 --> 01:07:04.960 has that like immature, self involved himbo who at the end of the day 883 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:10.400 will do the right thing that we see you know, very much from like 884 01:07:10.519 --> 01:07:16.519 star Lord, like it's the same kind of vibe as a character. All 885 01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:23.000 that said, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, DC first 886 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:29.039 announced Booster Gold TV show sci Fi had ordered one in twenty eleven, and 887 01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:31.159 they have since. They've said, oh, there's going to be a Blue 888 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:33.519 and Gold like Blue Beetold Booster Gold movie. No, it's gonna be a 889 01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:35.760 TV show. No, they're gonna do this, They're gonna There have been 890 01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:40.280 so many projects announced with him, and it makes sense because he's a really 891 01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:45.400 fun character and he's he's not someone who it's like, oh, he's the 892 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:48.559 third Robin or the eighth Green Lantern, and he like, he's not tied 893 01:07:48.599 --> 01:07:51.639 into other stuff. You can just have a Booster Gold movie. You don't 894 01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:55.599 have to have any other superheroes in it. And it still makes sense. 895 01:07:58.039 --> 01:08:01.000 But I mean, in some ways hasn't happened yet. In some ways and 896 01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:04.840 this might should not be possible any current media age we live in. But 897 01:08:04.880 --> 01:08:10.079 it makes me really miss the days where unless you were really really digging deep, 898 01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:12.880 you didn't know a new movie was coming. So he saw the trailer 899 01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:15.720 for it for the first time and like, yeah, I hope this works 900 01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:19.880 out. If we get yet another version of trying a ten year plan five 901 01:08:19.960 --> 01:08:23.920 years from now. At that point, I hope they just say we're going 902 01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.840 to make movies and TV shows and you'll know about them when we announce them, 903 01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:30.399 and just like stop all the pre hype because you're right, Like, 904 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:32.119 I think what Gun is trying to do is very ambitious. I think it's 905 01:08:32.119 --> 01:08:34.680 a plan that's given me the most hope for DC in a long time. 906 01:08:35.960 --> 01:08:40.800 But he has a ten year plan and a four year contract, so we'll 907 01:08:40.840 --> 01:08:42.840 see. Yeah, for the next one. Give one. I know about 908 01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:46.359 you and the stuff you love. You know, I know how much you 909 01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:48.840 you often talk about like you need for more women heroes. Totally agreed, 910 01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:53.319 want to see more of that on screen. I know you love optimistic characters 911 01:08:53.319 --> 01:08:58.079 and characters that young girls especially can relate to, and happy stories. So 912 01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:03.399 start so Supergirl. We're really excited for the Supergirl movie, right. Why 913 01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:09.840 are you bullying me? Because all I saw was that the first thing under 914 01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.720 the bad in your article is Supergirl, and I went what And I intentually 915 01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:16.319 didn't read anything else, just so I could be like, it's got to 916 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:19.279 be really bad, because you understand why I would think this would be one 917 01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:24.079 of the things to be most excited about. So what's happening You think, 918 01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:28.279 what's the Game of Thrones, A vacations happening here? It's exactly what's happening 919 01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:35.560 here. So the plan for the Supergirl movie is to base it on a 920 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:41.960 comic that just came out over the past like a year or two called Supergirl 921 01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:45.600 Woman of Tomorrow. It is by It was written by Tom King, it 922 01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:50.199 was drawn by Bill Chris Eveley. I maybe pronouncing her name wrong. Beautiful 923 01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:57.960 comic. Visually, it's stunning, like the art is exquisite. Tom King 924 01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:01.039 is actually going to be one of the sort of architects of the dcum. 925 01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:05.319 He's one of the people who's going to be in the writer's room for a 926 01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:11.399 bunch of these projects. They are directly adapting his this comic for this movie, 927 01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:15.239 and he's going to be involved in a bunch of other stuff. He 928 01:10:15.319 --> 01:10:21.520 has written a great number of DC comics, especially recently, he wrote Batman 929 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:38.439 for like a hundred issues. I I don't vibe with his work at all, 930 01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:43.520 and I at a Supergirl is my favorite character. She is my favorite 931 01:10:43.600 --> 01:10:49.880 DC character. And I hated Woman of Tomorrow because I felt like it was 932 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:54.800 a betrayal of everything about her and everything that she stands for. It's, 933 01:10:55.159 --> 01:10:57.920 first of all, it's not really about her. It's it's true grit in 934 01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:00.560 space, Like literally, that's what it is. There's this alien girl named 935 01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:04.760 Ruthie whose father is murdered, and so she hires Supergirl to help her track 936 01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:08.840 down the murderer and get revenge. So the whole thing is from Ruthie's point 937 01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:12.119 of view. It's about Ruthie's character, art and Ruthie's growth. So like, 938 01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:14.600 we're not getting a Supergirl movie. We're getting a Ruthie movie. And 939 01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:18.000 Ruthie is fine, but like Supergirl's my favorite character, I'd like her movie 940 01:11:18.039 --> 01:11:27.319 to be about her. The Supergirl in this is a miserable, drunken mess. 941 01:11:27.319 --> 01:11:30.479 When we first see her, she's drunken a bar, she's cursing, 942 01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:35.680 she throws up. She has to be like really pushed into helping people because 943 01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:44.000 she doesn't want to. She's just it's an incredibly bleak, nihilistic take on 944 01:11:44.039 --> 01:11:45.720 her, which I mean that's very much. Tom King is a writer. 945 01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:51.680 Everything he writes it's extremely nihilistic, which is not what I turned to superheroes 946 01:11:51.720 --> 01:11:59.079 for. Like I want superheroes. To especially superheroes like Superman and Supergirl, 947 01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:03.720 to show the best that we can be and that we can overcome. And 948 01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:11.840 this story is not that. It also has nothing to do with any Supergirl 949 01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:15.479 comic that's ever been published except her very first appearance, like it never it 950 01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:20.560 doesn't. It doesn't reference anything else, literally, like that first comic in 951 01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:27.560 nineteen fifty nine is the only comic it references. And if like you could 952 01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:32.359 believe that no other Supergirl comics ever existed, even though that comic, that 953 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:39.840 origin story has been retconned out of existence four times, it's not true anymore. 954 01:12:40.039 --> 01:12:43.680 That's what he's drawing on. So there's an issue where he goes into 955 01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:51.119 the how Kara survived the destruction of Krypton, and it's glossed over in a 956 01:12:51.159 --> 01:12:56.199 couple of panels in the nineteen fifty nine version, but here it's like and 957 01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:00.439 then all the people died of cryptonite poisoning, and you see Kara like walking 958 01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:02.640 down the street and there's just like dead bodies everywhere. She finds a dead 959 01:13:02.680 --> 01:13:09.840 baby at one point. So this is a character who was designed for little 960 01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:13.800 girls. Like that's not my opinion, that is historical fact. She was 961 01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:16.239 created to get little girls to read comics. That's who she is for, 962 01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:26.800 and her entire history has been ignored in favor of let's put some dead babies 963 01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:34.439 in this story. And like, I just keep thinking of when the Supergirl 964 01:13:34.479 --> 01:13:40.680 TV show started, Melissa Bannois, who played Supergirl, did all these like 965 01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:45.840 little meet and greets and photo shoots and stuff with little girls, Like there's 966 01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:48.119 one, there's a there's a set of photos of her meeting like a Girl 967 01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:53.079 Scout troupe, and there's pictures of her meeting little girls who were in Supergirl 968 01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:57.600 costumes, and everybody looks so happy and so joyful, and I just keep 969 01:13:57.640 --> 01:14:04.119 thinking, like there are no superheroes for little girls besides Supergirl and Miss Marvel. 970 01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:10.920 Yeah, and like wonder Woman, but she's an adult, Like there 971 01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:15.119 are so few young female characters for little girls to look up to. And 972 01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:17.079 the other female characters that we have, we have Black Widow, we have 973 01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:24.399 Jessica Jones. They're wonderful characters. They're deeply traumatized characters who suffer horrible things. 974 01:14:25.119 --> 01:14:29.800 And now we're going to have an R rated Supergirl movie that little girls 975 01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:32.600 can't see and there's nothing to replace it because there are only two. There 976 01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:36.439 are only two. No, there're three female led projects in this roster, 977 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:42.760 and they're all incredibly dark. Yeah, and like you said, like you 978 01:14:42.800 --> 01:14:45.479 said, you know you talk about like two characters like Jessica Jones. To 979 01:14:45.560 --> 01:14:46.600 me that that's part of why I don't want to see the story. I've 980 01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:53.479 seen it. I've seen that drug character. Jessica Jones is arguably her Daredevil 981 01:14:53.479 --> 01:14:56.680 in the cage. We're all just they're all fighting in my head for who's 982 01:14:56.720 --> 01:15:00.319 the best. But her show is fantastic, her characters fantast It's very dark, 983 01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:03.800 it's very greedy. I love that it exists, but yeah, I 984 01:15:04.039 --> 01:15:11.600 can see Supergirl holding a very different role. And it's like you can't tell 985 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:15.159 a Batman story with Superman. You can't tell like Jessica Jones story with Supergirl. 986 01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:18.600 They're not the same thing. And it just it's like I was saying 987 01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:27.760 about the Themiscira show, not every story is for every audience, Like Paradise 988 01:15:27.800 --> 01:15:34.239 Island exists for female audiences and Supergirl exists for little girls. And to turn 989 01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:38.960 it into a story that they can no longer access and that they can no 990 01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:43.199 longer take away from it, what is meant to be taken away, it 991 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:47.720 just feels it just feels greedy and mean to me, Like, yeah, 992 01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:53.279 grown men have so many superheroes. They have ninety seven percent of the superheroes, 993 01:15:53.359 --> 01:15:56.319 like leave one. It reminds me a lot. I don't know if 994 01:15:56.319 --> 01:15:59.520 you've seen this or if you remember the conflicts about it, but when they 995 01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:03.479 reboot Shira in a way that I think is one of the absolute best, 996 01:16:04.520 --> 01:16:10.439 not superhero it's more like fantasy superpower type things, but one of the best 997 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:12.920 of that kind of show that I've ever seen. And they did make a 998 01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:19.520 very conscious choice of the original was supposed to be kind of it was the 999 01:16:19.560 --> 01:16:25.760 people who made he Man thinking they were making something for young girls very much 1000 01:16:25.760 --> 01:16:29.439 from what a young what men thought young girls would want, in an incredibly 1001 01:16:29.439 --> 01:16:31.680 patronizing and sexist way. And there's a lot of good in that show, 1002 01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:33.720 to be sure, and a lot of people love it, not taking away 1003 01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:38.520 from it, but the writers who are doing the new Shira really wanted to 1004 01:16:38.560 --> 01:16:41.600 be like, no, we want this to be for young girls, for 1005 01:16:41.720 --> 01:16:45.800 young queer kids, for everybody who feels like they don't fit in some way 1006 01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:49.239 or another. And there was a huge pushback from grown men who were angry 1007 01:16:49.239 --> 01:16:53.880 that her sht her skirt wasn't going to have was going to have short centers, 1008 01:16:53.880 --> 01:16:56.600 sort of like you know, upskirt panty shots, whatever the hell they 1009 01:16:56.680 --> 01:17:00.000 might want a kids show. Yeah, I see a lot of that same 1010 01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:03.800 kind of energy here, and again, maybe this is just being badly explained. 1011 01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:06.960 We'll get something very different, but that one, especially even more than 1012 01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:12.039 something Paradise Lost, feels like they're very clearly planting their flag in a place 1013 01:17:12.079 --> 01:17:15.760 I can see why you're not happy about. It's funny that you mentioned the 1014 01:17:15.800 --> 01:17:20.079 bike shorts, because that happened a Supergirl in the late two thousands. They 1015 01:17:20.119 --> 01:17:24.119 gave her bike shorts and people like under her skirt, and people got real 1016 01:17:24.199 --> 01:17:28.760 mad about it because they weren't ever going to show Supergirls panties anyway. But 1017 01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:32.279 now you couldn't pretend that they might show you this drawing of a sixteen year 1018 01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:40.640 old panties. Yeah, which, if you're mad about that, like, 1019 01:17:40.720 --> 01:17:45.960 go outside, Yeah, put down the comic book and go outside. Except 1020 01:17:46.039 --> 01:17:48.000 no, because I don't want the outside world to have to deal with you. 1021 01:17:48.039 --> 01:17:49.840 But yeah, so I get your point. I get your point. 1022 01:17:50.159 --> 01:17:54.159 All right, let's do bonus round, And it's the three that you have 1023 01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:59.000 listed under bizarre. So let me just start with one of my favorite characters 1024 01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:02.439 we've learned about from the Justice League Unlimited TV show and all that is John 1025 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:05.760 Stuart Green Lantern, and I, like a lot of other people, have 1026 01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:11.079 been frustrated that we mostly get weird versions of how Jordan. Obviously, the 1027 01:18:11.119 --> 01:18:14.880 less said about the Ryan Reynolds movie, the better. But I hear that 1028 01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:16.760 we're going to get a Green Lantern movie, and on the one hand, 1029 01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:20.760 I'm like, yes, this sounds awesome. Granted, the attitude that I 1030 01:18:20.840 --> 01:18:25.560 have towards Universal Space Cops is a little bit differently than I would have had 1031 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:30.800 towards Cops twenty years ago when I was seeing that show originally. But I'm 1032 01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:32.359 curious why you have to listen to the bizarre category what you think of it? 1033 01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:40.319 So I am not it's not bizarre because it's a Green Lantern project. 1034 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:44.840 It makes total sense. Green Lantern is a huge franchise for the DC universe. 1035 01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:49.439 There are tons of extremely popular characters, and it it makes sense that 1036 01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:54.239 it would be James Gunn. He did a great Outer Space franchise, like 1037 01:18:55.039 --> 01:18:58.199 I would love to see I mean, I would love to see a Green 1038 01:18:58.279 --> 01:19:01.319 Lantern project that is similar to Guardians of the Galaxy. I think that could 1039 01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:06.680 be really fun, although confusing because the Green Lanterns are given their rings by 1040 01:19:06.760 --> 01:19:14.960 the Guardians of the Universe, who predate the Guardians of the Galaxy. I 1041 01:19:15.039 --> 01:19:17.720 just want to say most DC stuff is older than Marvel stuff, which is 1042 01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:27.840 Marvel doesn't more popularly. But the reason I have it, and I also 1043 01:19:27.880 --> 01:19:31.079 think so, they've basically said it's going to be a buddy cop movie about 1044 01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:36.119 or TV show rather about How Jordan and John Stewart, and I think that 1045 01:19:36.199 --> 01:19:42.319 makes a lot of sense because one of the issues with Green Lantern projects is 1046 01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:46.000 deciding who the main character is going to be. Because how Jordan has been 1047 01:19:46.039 --> 01:19:49.359 around since nineteen fifty nine. He's the one that a lot of people think 1048 01:19:49.479 --> 01:19:54.920 is like the classic iconic a lot of comic book fans think is the classic 1049 01:19:55.079 --> 01:20:00.439 iconic Green Lantern, and Jeff Johns. He's Jeff Johns's favorite character, and 1050 01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:03.399 that's why the first movie that Jeff John's really had a lot of power over 1051 01:20:03.680 --> 01:20:09.520 was the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern Movie, and we all saw how that went. 1052 01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:14.880 Whereas John Stewart is the one who people are most familiar with because of 1053 01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:19.199 the Justice League cartoon, and he's fantastic there, and he's by far the 1054 01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:27.439 most popular character, two people who like outside of comic book audiences. And 1055 01:20:27.479 --> 01:20:32.520 then there's also Kyle Rayner. In the nineties, How went evil and died 1056 01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:43.479 and was replaced by a young like hip like nineties radical Green Lantern Kyle Rayner, 1057 01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:49.800 and that was extremely controversial and that there was war between the How fans 1058 01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:54.640 and the Kyle fans. So it's always a question of do you make the 1059 01:20:54.640 --> 01:20:56.640 story about how If you make it about John, do you make it about 1060 01:20:56.720 --> 01:20:59.720 Kyle? If you make it about my favorite guy, Gardner, you shouldn't. 1061 01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:03.239 He's supporting character. But so making it about Howling John makes a lot 1062 01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:06.039 of sense. What I don't understand is why they were like, it's gonna 1063 01:21:06.079 --> 01:21:14.800 be like true Detective. Why what what this is? How Jordan is a 1064 01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:21.159 test pilot, John Stewart is an architect. They are not detectives. One 1065 01:21:21.800 --> 01:21:26.199 the one reason I can think about it, think think of for it is 1066 01:21:26.239 --> 01:21:30.479 and granted again I haven't read the comic books, but my experience of the 1067 01:21:30.520 --> 01:21:34.359 TV show versions of that, and then the few times that Green Lantern has 1068 01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:38.920 been done live action must specifically, in the Titans, there's a green lantern 1069 01:21:38.920 --> 01:21:43.640 who shows up? Oh which one? It's a young young girl, young 1070 01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:48.239 woman of color. Is it Jessica or Kelly? I couldn't remember. I'm 1071 01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:50.399 at the Google list. Sorry, you can cut this out. No, 1072 01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:54.039 it's fine. It's an interesting question. Um, one more reason for you 1073 01:21:54.119 --> 01:22:00.439 to watch the show. But um, but the point is that every time 1074 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:03.640 I've seen the like, the idea of it, of summoning whatever you want 1075 01:22:03.760 --> 01:22:10.600 or need in that moment with your mind sounds really cool. The visual of 1076 01:22:10.720 --> 01:22:16.159 creating a big hammer or an airplane or some other weapon out of green light 1077 01:22:16.239 --> 01:22:20.800 that comes from your ring. Maybe this is just me. It looks really 1078 01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:26.960 cheesy and like to me, the true detective things. That's interesting because I 1079 01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:30.039 love detective stories, and frankly, if you're gonna telltective story, I would 1080 01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:32.800 rather be Batman being the detective. And one more reason why I love the 1081 01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:38.359 Robert Pattinson but hey, more detectives, more goodness. But also if maybe 1082 01:22:38.399 --> 01:22:41.640 it's much more about that, and so it's a lot less about summoning being 1083 01:22:41.680 --> 01:22:45.720 hammers with green rings, I think that's going to play better on screen. 1084 01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:48.520 I just I haven't seen the comic books. It may look amazing there, 1085 01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:54.680 I have real trouble imagining it carrying a show with that kind of power set 1086 01:22:54.760 --> 01:23:00.239 on screen. Yeah, I mean, I don't think like the budget loan. 1087 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:05.399 I also like, I think as a nerd culture, we are increasingly 1088 01:23:05.479 --> 01:23:12.439 getting away from let's have everything BcgI all the time. And what I don't 1089 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:16.920 want is for two miserable actors to be in a box in mo cap suits 1090 01:23:17.399 --> 01:23:23.720 filming twelve episodes where they never leave the box and they never get to interact 1091 01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:30.760 with physical prop. Ever, and Green Lantern is more prone to that than 1092 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:33.399 anything else, because you know of the constructs. Like you were saying, 1093 01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:40.319 I fully love the I'm going to hit you with a big green hammer just 1094 01:23:40.399 --> 01:23:44.239 again because the same reason that I love Superman. It's all larger than life. 1095 01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:47.479 It's all silly, it's all cartoony, it's all hyper. This hyper 1096 01:23:49.640 --> 01:23:56.720 not realism, but it's heightened reality. It probably is something that plays better 1097 01:23:56.720 --> 01:24:01.319 in comic books and animation than live action. All that said, I mean, 1098 01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:06.520 like you said, the whole cop thing is iffy, and I feel 1099 01:24:06.520 --> 01:24:13.239 like steering into the detective angle makes it more that way, because the thing 1100 01:24:13.319 --> 01:24:17.800 is Green Lanterns don't have to be cops. That is a way to interpret 1101 01:24:17.840 --> 01:24:24.680 them. They can also be like space social workers. They can be whatever 1102 01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:30.199 you want. And I think really like pointing it in the detective direction, 1103 01:24:33.560 --> 01:24:35.560 well, I mean, I don't know. Like That's the thing. The 1104 01:24:35.640 --> 01:24:40.880 reason I put this in the bonker section is I just I can't visualize it. 1105 01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:44.960 It's so different from any Green Lantern story we've ever seen. And Green 1106 01:24:45.039 --> 01:24:53.680 Lantern, like Superman, is not a franchise that I think does going realistic 1107 01:24:53.760 --> 01:24:56.840 with it. I don't think is going to help because they're still going to 1108 01:24:56.920 --> 01:25:00.439 have rings that can make big green hammers. So like, I mean, 1109 01:25:00.479 --> 01:25:04.640 we didn't go realistic with the talking raccoon and his tree friend, so like. 1110 01:25:06.720 --> 01:25:10.840 But I also put it in bonkers because like, look, and I'm 1111 01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:14.319 going to get letters about this one. How Jordan's real dumb, So I 1112 01:25:14.359 --> 01:25:17.720 don't know how they're making him a detective because the man. I have seen 1113 01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:23.039 that man get knocked out by a paper plane. M I have seen that 1114 01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:28.199 man lose a fight to a seagull. Like I, this is cannon. 1115 01:25:29.319 --> 01:25:33.000 He's he has given himself so many concussions. It's not bad guys. He 1116 01:25:33.119 --> 01:25:38.119 just falls down and hits his head because his ring is all powerful. So 1117 01:25:38.199 --> 01:25:41.960 that's the only way you can stop him. I mean, you know, 1118 01:25:42.359 --> 01:25:45.199 Keystone Cops are still a cab, but are a lot more fun to watch 1119 01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:49.560 than So No, that I would watch if nothing else. I just want 1120 01:25:49.640 --> 01:25:54.760 John Stewart because this is a pretty white lineup, all told. So that's 1121 01:25:54.840 --> 01:25:57.920 that's another reason for a nice pierce of color. Any well, we don't 1122 01:25:57.960 --> 01:26:01.760 know that they could cast anyone. That's true. That's certainly very true. 1123 01:26:03.239 --> 01:26:05.640 Yeah, and that's actually a good point. I'm assuming based on who those 1124 01:26:05.720 --> 01:26:10.520 characters have traditionally been, Um, if nothing else, you know, if 1125 01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:15.079 if we're honoring the actual background, Damien should be Um, you know, 1126 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:18.800 someone who looks like they have a whatever Bruce Wayne's heritage is, but also 1127 01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:24.319 an Arab parent of some kind. Yes, but the al Goals have never 1128 01:26:24.439 --> 01:26:30.039 been played by anybody but white people in uh live action. So well, 1129 01:26:30.159 --> 01:26:33.960 Nissa, I think yeah on the Arrow verse, but Roz has always been 1130 01:26:33.960 --> 01:26:39.720 a white actor. No, wasn't Ros played by um the actor who will 1131 01:26:39.760 --> 01:26:43.479 forever be doctor Basher to me? But he's a I believe it's Pakistani. 1132 01:26:43.680 --> 01:26:48.520 He's definitely South Asian. Um, look up his name in the raw verse 1133 01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:56.439 in some on screen thing, Alexander Siddek wasn't he hasn't He played Rozalcool at 1134 01:26:56.439 --> 01:27:04.960 some point. Ay, uh, let me look up. He's Sudanese by 1135 01:27:04.960 --> 01:27:14.159 the way. Uh. And oh in Gotham, I haven't seen God. 1136 01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:16.640 Yeah, okay, so there we go. All right, my bad, 1137 01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:18.720 I take it back. There we go. There we go. But no. 1138 01:27:18.880 --> 01:27:25.279 Yeah. But but having at least having one character who we know is 1139 01:27:25.319 --> 01:27:30.319 canonically black, I think is a good thing. Yes. Um, so 1140 01:27:30.119 --> 01:27:35.079 you talked about universal failure to pull off a monster franchise. So is that 1141 01:27:35.079 --> 01:27:40.960 what Creature Commandos is going to be. I have no idea what Creature Commandos 1142 01:27:41.039 --> 01:27:45.079 is going to be. So in the comics, Creature Commandos is, um 1143 01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:50.600 all these universal monster characters. There there's a Frankenstein and a werewolf and a 1144 01:27:50.680 --> 01:27:57.920 vampire and um gorgon um and usually like a bride of Frankenstein character too. 1145 01:27:58.239 --> 01:28:01.159 Um who I think you we has like six arms. It's so weird. 1146 01:28:01.279 --> 01:28:04.119 And then they're they're in the army or they're in the military. It might 1147 01:28:04.119 --> 01:28:09.439 not be the army, but yeah, they fight Nazis. And then obviously 1148 01:28:09.439 --> 01:28:13.520 in modern day stuff. They fight. We'll probably still Nazis because it's comics, 1149 01:28:13.520 --> 01:28:16.680 but also other bad guys. I've never read any of their actual comics, 1150 01:28:16.680 --> 01:28:19.039 but I've read stuff where they like just show up and everybody's like, 1151 01:28:19.079 --> 01:28:23.560 oh, Frankenstein's here. It's usually he's like the main one. You usually 1152 01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:30.119 see Frankenstein and other stuff. He's actually I know we haven't gotten to him 1153 01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:33.800 yet, but he in swamp thing hang out. Sometimes they're bros. I'll 1154 01:28:33.800 --> 01:28:38.159 say, I'm a little more excited for Guermo de Toro's take on Frankenstein, 1155 01:28:38.279 --> 01:28:41.760 but we'll see what James Gunn can do with it. So yeah, and 1156 01:28:41.800 --> 01:28:45.439 I get the feeling. I suspect it's going to be like it's going to 1157 01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:48.840 be a cartoon an animated show. I suspect it's going to be like more 1158 01:28:48.840 --> 01:28:54.920 in the Harley Quinn Bane for adults. But honestly, I feel like it 1159 01:28:54.920 --> 01:28:58.319 could go either way and still work. Like you could have like a very 1160 01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:06.079 wink wink adult show about these characters, or you could have a really like 1161 01:29:06.880 --> 01:29:15.319 just fun kids show that's just like weird, like bat Wheels and they why 1162 01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:18.600 not both? Like I either way, I think it could be really fun 1163 01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:23.720 and they're not characters I care about, So if it's bad at and so 1164 01:29:23.800 --> 01:29:27.600 let's round up the group with swamp Thing. Who is swamp Thing and why 1165 01:29:27.680 --> 01:29:32.119 do we care? Um, he's a guy who died and became a thing 1166 01:29:32.199 --> 01:29:38.159 that is a swamp except he's not really Okay, well spoilers, he's not 1167 01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:41.439 really that guy anymore. But yeah, basically he is an element. He's 1168 01:29:41.439 --> 01:29:45.039 a plant elemental who's connected to like all it's called the green, but like 1169 01:29:45.119 --> 01:29:50.079 all of plant life on Earth, it's also what like plays an ivy, 1170 01:29:50.159 --> 01:29:55.279 draws on, etc. Um. He tends to be I haven't read a 1171 01:29:55.319 --> 01:29:58.000 lot of swamping comics. Again, he's a character who I've read when he 1172 01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:01.199 shows up in other stuff, Um, he tends to be in like very 1173 01:30:01.560 --> 01:30:10.520 um more sort of artsy, highbrow thoughtful comics like his eighties stuff by Alan 1174 01:30:10.560 --> 01:30:15.920 Moore was really groundbreaking, um and really changed like what people understood comics could 1175 01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.800 do and be Um does he hang out with a lot or are they seen 1176 01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:26.279 as like just so funny like different worlds that there? Yeah, I mean 1177 01:30:26.279 --> 01:30:30.000 they've interacted, but it really is sort of different worlds because she's very much 1178 01:30:30.079 --> 01:30:34.119 like I'm going to rob the plant Bank and Gotham with these plants like it's 1179 01:30:34.640 --> 01:30:39.680 you know, she she is much more on that down to earth level, 1180 01:30:39.680 --> 01:30:50.399 and he is very elemental. Like I said, although Jason Woodrow the floronic 1181 01:30:50.439 --> 01:30:59.600 man who in Wow does he arrange her to death? Um, actually you've 1182 01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:03.119 seen you've seen Batman and Robin right, Yes, you've seen him in a 1183 01:31:03.159 --> 01:31:06.520 movie. He's the guy who gives Ivy her power, who kills her and 1184 01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:12.800 she gets her powers. Okay, yep so, and in many continuities he 1185 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:17.479 is like her mentor professor or boss who has an inappropriate relationship with her of 1186 01:31:17.560 --> 01:31:21.560 some kind and then gives her her powers. He also has plant powers and 1187 01:31:21.600 --> 01:31:26.359 he sort of exists in the middle of that spectrum. So he's like connective 1188 01:31:26.359 --> 01:31:31.039 tissue. Anyway, it should be interesting, Like I feel like whatever they 1189 01:31:31.119 --> 01:31:35.640 do will be interesting, if they do anything, because, as I said 1190 01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:42.279 in the article, they had there was a swamp Thing show in twenty nineteen, 1191 01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:48.199 and they canceled it two months after it premiered, like almost immediately, 1192 01:31:48.399 --> 01:31:53.000 Like I want to say, I was on I found out about this, 1193 01:31:53.079 --> 01:31:57.159 like on a panel at Wiscon about superheroes. It was like breaking news. 1194 01:31:57.199 --> 01:32:05.199 Swamp Thing is canceled. Yees, I mean, will this happened? I 1195 01:32:05.239 --> 01:32:09.920 don't know. It feels like it's a very expensive project to me, because 1196 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:14.199 again, well, no CGI is the cheaper route. I feel like this 1197 01:32:14.199 --> 01:32:18.920 would be a really cool project with practical effects, like really good practical effects, 1198 01:32:18.920 --> 01:32:21.319 but they will never do that. Yeah, I would say it's a 1199 01:32:21.359 --> 01:32:25.720 really expensive project to do. Well, I think it could be done very 1200 01:32:25.800 --> 01:32:30.439 cheaply and very badly. Yeah. CW Stargirl is a good example of what 1201 01:32:30.439 --> 01:32:34.359 happens when you try to do universal type powers on a budget. Oh bless 1202 01:32:34.399 --> 01:32:38.319 their hearts. All this reminds me also that I would love to get a 1203 01:32:38.800 --> 01:32:44.159 new live action Poison IVY because the Poison IVY and Harley Quinn is phenomenal, 1204 01:32:44.439 --> 01:32:47.439 and of course all this stuff about Harley and Poison's relationship is phenomenal. The 1205 01:32:47.840 --> 01:32:51.479 only two on screen versions that I really know about that I have mixed feelings 1206 01:32:51.520 --> 01:32:58.640 about one is Uma Thurman, which is just fem fatal, fem fatalvis and 1207 01:32:59.479 --> 01:33:02.159 all all that can be said about that. And then there's this it's limited, 1208 01:33:02.239 --> 01:33:05.760 but she's having so much fun that I'm like I can't. I'm like, 1209 01:33:06.439 --> 01:33:11.600 okay, Uma, I'm with you when you understand that all of those 1210 01:33:11.640 --> 01:33:20.520 movies are not Schambert, Nut Schnyder, Schaumberg, Schumacher. Thank you when 1211 01:33:20.520 --> 01:33:26.560 you understand that is Schumacher a gay man doing a gay camp version, like 1212 01:33:26.600 --> 01:33:30.960 she is perfect for camp, like Grilla Suit, so good. But the 1213 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:34.560 other version that I've seen which started out so good and then took such a 1214 01:33:34.600 --> 01:33:40.720 turn was in Gotham. You had this young child named Selina Kyle who was 1215 01:33:40.760 --> 01:33:44.439 like a twelve year old who broke into things to survive, and another street 1216 01:33:44.520 --> 01:33:47.439 kid she hung out with was this weirdo kid named Ivy with big, fuzzy 1217 01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:51.439 red hair and thick glasses who was always playing with her plants. And that 1218 01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:58.119 character was phenomenal. And then somewhere in I think season two or season three, 1219 01:33:58.560 --> 01:34:02.359 she does some plant things and through the magic of planty plantness, gets 1220 01:34:02.399 --> 01:34:10.000 turned into a long, sleek haired, long legged supermodel of about nineteen or 1221 01:34:10.039 --> 01:34:15.319 twenty who cares about plants and has plant bikinis. And it just isn't it 1222 01:34:15.399 --> 01:34:17.399 a totally different actress? Yeah? Yeah, I mean it was a twelve 1223 01:34:17.439 --> 01:34:20.399 year old actress and then a twenty year old actress, and of course her 1224 01:34:20.439 --> 01:34:25.319 red hair and what can't they do her reddy care is now long and straight 1225 01:34:25.359 --> 01:34:30.479 and sleek and shiny because curly fuzzy hair can't be sexy. There's no racism 1226 01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:33.359 marti semitism in that idea, putting that aside, but yeah, it was 1227 01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:38.239 so because the character was The actress who played her was so good as this, 1228 01:34:38.359 --> 01:34:44.640 Like Selena was this character who had made this like conscious choice that she 1229 01:34:44.840 --> 01:34:47.920 had to be okay doing what she had to to survive, even if sometimes 1230 01:34:47.960 --> 01:34:53.279 it was a moral and it was played off against Ivy, who's like morals, 1231 01:34:53.279 --> 01:34:57.039 what are those not any Like I'm evil and terrible, but just like 1232 01:34:57.199 --> 01:35:00.319 she was one of the most a moral but not immoral characters I've ever seen 1233 01:35:00.319 --> 01:35:03.319 on screen, and it was so well done. She like a lot of 1234 01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:08.920 um uh not in Planta. There's a character like that in Shira whose name 1235 01:35:09.199 --> 01:35:15.960 is escaping me now um but yeah, it's not Perfuma. She's the one 1236 01:35:15.000 --> 01:35:17.880 with the plants in Trappta. Okay, I think it's in Trapti, but 1237 01:35:17.880 --> 01:35:21.479 that sounded right. Yeah, in Trapta exactly that kind of like the science 1238 01:35:21.560 --> 01:35:25.439 is so cool. I don't really care who's being hit with the machines that 1239 01:35:25.439 --> 01:35:29.239 I'm building that was what IVY was like with plans and just why that's a 1240 01:35:29.239 --> 01:35:32.239 good take on IVY. So anyway, well, all this is awesome, 1241 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:35.399 and like I said, I've been reading along in your article about this, 1242 01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:39.880 which is a great opportunity for me to have you tell people's wrap up. 1243 01:35:40.119 --> 01:35:42.840 Where can people find that article? Where can people find the other stuff you're 1244 01:35:42.840 --> 01:35:45.920 doing? Um? So that article is on bookriat dot com, where I 1245 01:35:45.920 --> 01:35:51.319 am a contributing editor writing mostly about comics and comic related things. Um I'm 1246 01:35:51.439 --> 01:35:58.680 on Twitter as it you know, goes through its death, throws at jess 1247 01:35:58.840 --> 01:36:03.119 underscore, Plumber, and as Matthew mentioned, I do have a Superman podcast 1248 01:36:03.239 --> 01:36:08.560 called Flights and Tights, although it has not been updated in quite some time, 1249 01:36:08.600 --> 01:36:11.760 but it still up, so you can have a listen to that. 1250 01:36:12.119 --> 01:36:15.479 Yeah, and we're gonna have a little bit more with Jessica running down some 1251 01:36:15.560 --> 01:36:18.880 of her favorite and least favorite Superman on screens in the bonus content for Patreons. 1252 01:36:19.239 --> 01:36:21.520 So if you're if you are patrons, stick around for that. If 1253 01:36:21.520 --> 01:36:25.520 you're not think about doing so, you can go to patreon dot com, 1254 01:36:25.800 --> 01:36:29.279 the Ethical Panda, or just find it in the show notes or on our 1255 01:36:29.319 --> 01:36:31.279 website. It's a great way to support the podcasts, help us keep the 1256 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:34.880 lights running, all that kind of good stuff. As well as you get 1257 01:36:34.880 --> 01:36:38.760 some great stuff, you get access to all this bonus content. At higher 1258 01:36:38.840 --> 01:36:42.439 levels, you can get free merch you can get ways to help us design 1259 01:36:42.439 --> 01:36:44.840 episodes, things like that. If you don't want to do that, you 1260 01:36:44.880 --> 01:36:46.880 still want to help support what we're doing. Share an episode, you know, 1261 01:36:47.000 --> 01:36:51.319 post about it on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or you know whatever social 1262 01:36:51.359 --> 01:36:55.199 media you use, Tell people about it, Start a conversation with someone and 1263 01:36:55.479 --> 01:36:59.159 suggest they give it a listen to anything you do to help more people listen, 1264 01:36:59.239 --> 01:37:01.000 help spread the word about the stuff we're trying to do here. Conversations 1265 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:04.239 we're having is so helpful. And of course the reason for all that is 1266 01:37:04.319 --> 01:37:08.439 COO. We love feedback. The feedback really helps keep the conversations going. 1267 01:37:09.039 --> 01:37:13.239 We're getting ready to do another feedback episode pretty soon. If you have thoughts, 1268 01:37:13.279 --> 01:37:15.600 If you are you know you agree with some of the stuff we've said 1269 01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:18.199 about the upcoming slate, you have totally different ideas, want to offer different 1270 01:37:18.199 --> 01:37:21.560 perspective, let us know. If you go to the Ethical Panda dot com 1271 01:37:21.640 --> 01:37:25.760 you'll find all the contact information. You can also find it in the show 1272 01:37:25.800 --> 01:37:29.199 notes of this but also if you go to your favorite show, favorite social 1273 01:37:29.239 --> 01:37:31.600 media and google the Ethical Panda, it may not be the first link. 1274 01:37:31.640 --> 01:37:34.159 It'll often be the first link that comes up, but you'll definitely eventually find 1275 01:37:34.159 --> 01:37:36.720 it. So please check out all those things. Please check out all the 1276 01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:40.359 great ways to give us feedback, positive or negative. Just let us know 1277 01:37:40.359 --> 01:37:43.600 what you think, join the conversation, think about supporting us on Patreon, 1278 01:37:43.720 --> 01:37:45.319 and most importantly, have a great dea