Hello, friends, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. There's a
new slate of films and TV shows that James Gunn is promising a ten year
plan that he's going to accomplish in his four year project, and I have
Comics Extraordinary Wizard jess Plumber back to talk to us about the slate, how
we're feeling about it, what we're excited for, what we might have some
raised eyebrows about, and what we can expect some good questions to come out
of. So all that more after our commercial break that we have no control
over. Welcome back to your host, Matthew. I use datam pronouns,
and I'm going to introduce my guest, Jessica. Jessica Plumber has been a
frequent guest on this podcast, especially talking about comics and comic history and the
way different stories from comics relate to their on screen appearances, particularly with a
specialized focus in DC, although all things Marvel have also been discussed. So
jess say, hello, introduce yourself. Hi Matthew, thanks for having me
again. It's very funny that you say that, because I am in fact
wearing a Star Labs hoodie. But there's a Daredevil shirt underneath, so I
like it. I like to cover all my bases. There you go,
There you go. The fans of independent comics are really wanting you to get
some bracelets on or something, but I've got the two major ones I need
to get, like Archie socks or something. Yeah, there you go,
There you go. Well, I went through this late and had a lot
of things. I was super excited about a lot of things that I went,
Okay, that's interesting, and a lot went what in the world is
that? And you're the person I knew I wanted to have on and so
I'm going to kind of go through them all and like get your thoughts in
each of them. But let me just start overall. What's been kind of
your feeling as a DC fan who I think I can safely say is not
the president or even vice president of the Zack Snyder Fan Club. What's been
kind of your take on what DC on Screen has been doing these days,
on what's been happening on screen with DC Comics these days, and what you're
kind of feeling about this new stuff gone forward. Oh, Matthew, I
thought we were going to try to not have three hour episodes exactly exactly,
I mean not great. I mean I think that the sort of historical wisdom,
at least for like twenty years now more than that, almost thirty,
has been that DC is very good at TV animation and Marvel is very good
at movies, and those they can't do the thing that the other one is
doing. And I feel like that has mostly held true. I mean,
I did I like The Flash when it started, Like some of the TV
stuff, the CW stuff has been a lot of fun. The movies have
been largely disappointing. I loved the first Wonder Woman, second one was no
good. I loved Birds of Prey. There was a lot that was enjoyable
about the second Suicide Squad movie. I mean I was on for we had
an episode about that, but and I was on for the Black Adam episode,
which I loved even though it wasn't really that good. But I had
a great time. And then there are other movies that we don't need to
talk about. Yeah, I think that's kind of my thought, and it's
it's funny because I exist primarily in a fan space on the stranded of Panda
podcast Network, which has great podcast is strongly recommend and the granddaddy flagship of
that is the MCU cast, and so I'm in a space primarily with Marvel
fans. I love a lot of things about the MCU, but I've got
into all of this. I mean, Batman has always been my favorite hero,
like long before any of the MCU stuff came along, and I felt
so up and down about all the different DCS stuff on screen, and more
recently, yeah, there's been more stuff that I've liked. Birds of Prey,
Sue Us, Thus, Suicide Squad. I thought Shusam was a lot
of fun. I thought laughing at Black Adam was a lot of fun,
and probably even more than you, I enjoyed a lot of the DC stuff
on screen. I just never had a sense of the cohesion, you know,
and annoyed it where it all fit and how it all fit together.
And at least for me my opinion, the stuff that was trying the most
to fit together was the Arrow Verse, which was really good, Or was
the Zack Snyder stuff, which kind of left me pretty met And honestly,
the thing that I was probably most excited about in the last couple of years
was Pattinson, the Robert Pattinson, the Batman which I was then said to
learn is not going to be anyway part of these new plans. But I
think I heard all this and was kind of like, Okay, well,
I'm I love what James Gunn is going to do. I love James Gunn.
I'm excited for his passion and excited there's gonna be at least one strong,
kind of one singular mind at the head of everything in theory, kind
of keeping everything on pace. Do you think that's a good thing for dc
Do you think it's better if it stays a little bit more everyone doing your
own thing and we don't try to connect at all. What's kind of your
take on that. I mean, I really like before anything else, I
feel like it's almost a little silly to say, like, is James Gunn
going to be good for the DCU or bad for the DCU? Is this
plan going to be good for the DCU? Is it going to be bad
for the Because this is the third ten year plan we've gotten from them in
less than like they keep they can't stick to it. So many of these
characters who have had projects announced, like they're like, oh, we're going
to have a Supergirl movie. Well you said that you canceled one last year,
literally last year. Oh, we're gonna have a Green Lantern project.
You canceled one literally last year. So we're gonna have a Booster Gold movie.
Okay, you announced that in twenty eleven, filmed movie. They did
film that girl movie, and hey, you know, they've also been promising
a Blue Beetle movie for as long as it longer than they've been or a
Blue Beetle project for longer than they've been promising Booster Gold, and that's finally
happening. So like, maybe James Gunn does seem like someone who actually gets
things done, maybe it will happen, But there's a large part of me
that's like that we're going to get two of these things. Like I just
I find it really hard to believe that DC and Warner Brothers can carry through
on what it is they're doing because I feel like Warner Brothers has never understood
the DC properties, and they don't understand they don't understand superheroes, they don't
understand comics, they don't understand interconnected universes. And so the people at Marvel
and at Marvel Studios knew how to translate what a shared universe looks like to
film, and nobody working on a DC project could make that happen at Warner
Brothers because the people above them simply didn't understand it. And the closest that
they had to someone in charge of everything was Jeff Johns, who was only
interested in adapting his own work. Like right that, it's literally all of
it, like Shazam is a Jeff Johns comic. Justice League stuff is from
Jeff John's comics. It's all like Jeff John's joint, which is problematic.
And oh, yeah, I don't we want to ask why we don't have
a cyborg movie? And yeah, that's good to know because I think you
know, Zach Schnyder's obviously a kind of controversial figure, but a lot of
people do love his version of a and I think he did with a slate
of movies that he either created himself or was kind of very involved in put
together some degree of cohesion. And I think, if I understand part what
we're saying is that whether or not you like the vision he had, which
I think very debatable, even he only had so much power, like he
was not what he was, never like the kind of power that FIGI is
over at Marvel. Oh no, I mean it just look at Justice League,
like all the nonsense with like obviously, like Zack Snyder had to leave
that project because of a terrible tragedy and his family, and that's like no
one could have predicted that, and that's not the fault of him or his
family or anyone at Warner Brothers. And the solution was to bring in Josh
Sweden because he had been successful with Avengers, the closest analog to the Justice
League, and they were like, oh, I just do Avengers for us,
But they never considered that those two directors have diametrically opposed styles. They
couldn't match anything that they did together. And then I mean everybody jokes about
like the Henry Cavill upper lip thing where the cgi the mustache off, but
like it's really I think indicative of Warner Brothers approach to this, where they
they rush things in, Like they could have just waited for him to finish
filming mission impossible and then shave, but they didn't for incomprehensible reasons, and
you end up with a movie that's a laughing stock. And then they spent
beffillions more money to make it again, Like it's just baffling choices, and
like, I fundamentally do not understand why many people love the actual the remake
Zack Snyder Justice League. It's just not my kind of movie. I respect
those who really love it, and that's great for them, and which there
are many, but even I would say, well, I mean, are
there many, because it turned out a lot of the people behind the restore
the Snyder cut campaign or bots. And I also like, yes, I'm
sure that there are plenty of people who watched the movies and enjoyed them,
But I also feel like it's become a very political thing, and so if
you have a particular political stance, you are that's fair in support of Zack
Snyder, and like there's this idea that he's great and his movies can do
no wrong and that'll stick it to the woke people somehow it doesn't like it,
just it doesn't I do. I do kind of wonder do you actually
like these movies or do you just want to win quote unquote win. My
own circle to friends may have a disproportionately high number of those few folks who
like them, but uh, okay, But either the point that I was
gonna make though, is that I do think that whether you like it or
hate it, the Zach Snyder version of Justice League feels like a much more
coherent, cohesive piece of cinema in a way that like the Zack Snyder Josh
Sweden, you know, fused together, absolutely does not. Yes, and
we're getting into tangents here, as I knew we would, because we don't
want to talk about the newer stuff. But I think this is already interesting,
and I guess I would turn to you with the because I think one
of the things that we keep talking about is like, does Warner Brothers understand
how to put DC on the screen, and that a part of this conversation
is always like, because DC is not Marvel. Marvel has one very specific
approach to its world in terms of very relatable characters who go through relatable issues
even though they have superpowers. They do their things in Chicago and New York
and London, not in Gotham or Metropolis or star City or whatever. I
think people know what the Marvel idea is, and I think people have seen
that when DC try to just copy that, it didn't really work. So
if you could sum up one hundred years of a thousand different people's creations in
two or three sentences, what would you like if you if you were to
say what a mission statement of a of a DC world on the screen could
be? What would that be? Like? What? What do you think
is the thing that Warner Brothers is not understanding about the DC world and its
characters in what they've been putting on screen. I mean, again, you
can make a book of this, So give me two or three sentences.
Yeah, I think. I mean, there's so much. But I read
a really interesting blog post twenty years ago when I was getting into comics that
basically compared the Marvel Universe the DC universe, and it basically made the argument
that DC characters are very aspirational and godlike in a lot of ways, even
even Batman, Like, you know, people are like, he's a normal
guy. It's like, no, he's a billionaire who is invulnerable to concussions
apparently. And the Marvel universe is like Peter Parkers, who are barely making
rent and really struggling and are you know, picked on and hated and feared
and whatever. And the conclusion that this blogger came to was the DC heroes
are about inspiration and Marvel heroes are about consolation. Like DC heroes will inspire
you to be better and Marvel heroes will let you know you're not alone.
And I think that's that's oversimplifying for sure, but I think it's it's an
interesting idea and it's one that I would want to sort of see disgust and
a full of people who are deciding these movies. So I think to make
you can't make a DC movie universe work unless you understand Superman right, And
to understand Superman, I think you have to step into a sort of heightened
reality. You have to step into metaphor much more than you do with the
Marvel universe. Like I do think that Clark Kent can be a relatable character,
but you have to create a world that it feels plausible that he would
exist in, and that is not the sort of gritty Snyder verse world it's
I mean, before we started recording, I told you I've been watching Superman
the animated series, and that has this really the way the architecture is designed.
Obviously it's easier with a cartoon, but the way the architecture is the
way the streets are laid out the way that like their ridiculous Daily Planet office,
Like no desk or computer has ever looked like that. But it makes
Superman fit into the world because everything is so sunny and bright and colorful.
Yeah, and I would love to see a movie that really fully embraces that
aesthetic. And I think that's a world that Superman could exist in. You
know what sky High? Sky High is the kind of movie that builds a
universe that this kind of character is believable in. Have you seen it?
I have no idea what you're talking about, Matthew. It is. It's
a kids movie that came out like fifteen years ago. I think it's a
Disney movie and it's about these kids going to superhero high school. But it
is so comic bookie in its language, and it's visual in its visual language
that everything that happens is like it's a cartoon, but it's a really believable
cartoon and a really fun one. Okay, because they build that world.
Well, first of all, that sounds awesome. I'm definitely something called check
out and if other people check that out as well. But you know,
and maybe we can have you get another reason to get Jess back on if
you recommend something, you have to come on and talk about it. That's
the rule. But the other part of that is that part of what I'm
thinking as I hear you talk about this, is that that idea of inspirational
characters, like I'll admit it sounds a little corny to me. It sounds
a little cheesy to me. And part of that's because most of the media
that I've seen for the last twenty years, especially around superhero stuff, has
been much more grim dark. Like grim dark gritty has been the overwhelming theme
of the day. And I love that, and I like back when you
know, Tim Burton first did Batman that felt so refreshing after so much feeling
so like Pie in the Sky goodness. And I've just written that garden,
you know, goth world all the way through. But I get the idea
that it may have been that like ten fifteen years ago, when all people
have seen to want, or at the Hollywood thought all people wanted was grim
dark. Like you said, Zack Snyder, trying to fit DC into that,
you know, doesn't really work. There does seem to be a lot
of cultural pushback more recently against that kind of thing, and certainly if you're
looking for a if you're looking for grim dark in a Marvel movie, Guardians
of the Galaxy is one of the ones that's gonna be the hardest to find.
Like that is a fundamentally hopeful, happy It's a lot darker, I
think than the inspiration. No one in that moves an inspiration, to be
clear, but like it what you're saying, Like again, Zeitgeist and stuff,
Who the hell knows what's going to happen. But it does feel to
me like if we're ever going to get a see world based primarily on that
inspiration, this is a much better time for it than it was ten years
ago or whenever it was Zack Snyder got started. I mean, I would
certainly hope so. And I also think, I mean, you do have
like Gotham still exists in the DC universe. And I am not arguing that
we like no shade to Adam West. I love the Adam West Show.
It's super fun. I'm not arguing we need a movie of that, and
we did need a movie of that. We have the lego movies, Like
it's fine, but that's what I'm talking about with like that really really heightened
reality, Like how do you construct a world in which it makes sense that
Metropolis is this utopia and Gotham is this dystopia and they're like forty minutes drive
away from each other, and it's two guys hang out. I mean,
thirty years ago, Manhattan and Brooklyn, we're pretty different. The famous quote
that has been I believe it was Danny O'Neill, who's a comics writer,
who originally said it, but it's been misquoted in paraphrase very much is Metropolis
is New York City above fourteenth Street on a sunny April day, and Gotham
is New York City below fourteenth Street on a rainy November night. Yeah.
That makes total, total sense. So it's doable. Yeah, it's just
you have to, I think you have to get away from the idea of
some kind of quote unquote realism, and especially from the idea that realism is
necessary for relatability. Yeah, because it's a metaphor. But then I come
from musical theater, so of course I'm like, it doesn't have to be
believable, it just has to feel real. And it's interestingly because I've always
thought that I think one of the most interesting and in some ways creative parts
of the DC media world in the last twenty years was the TV show Gotham,
and I will hold that I don't think Gotham is a good show necessarily
by most ways we define it. I think if you watch Gotham once a
week, you're going to hate it, because it is the closest thing outside
into the Spider Verse that I've seen to a comic book mentality on screen.
Everything in that show just doesn't feel quite right. And if you watch it
once a week, you're never going to get into it. But if you
do stupid things like I did, and you know, binge eight hours of
it on a weekend, after two or three episodes, you just live in
that world now, and now all the metaphor works, everything makes sense,
And then you go back and watch a regular TV show and it's just like,
you know, it's like being jetlagged. You know, it's a completely
different thing. And I so that gives me hope. And the other thing
I think you're helping to point out is and this may also be why,
you know, real Batman lovers like myself didn't really love Afflack and all that
not Afflack, the duck at Bent you know what I mean, Affleck,
is that I think part of what makes that version of Batman so good is
how much he is the Loans standalone contrast to all that insport, Like he
is inspiring in his own way. But like you talked about Star Superman the
Animated series, I've seen some episodes of that, and I know my understanding
is, like that's kind of the Superman standalone series. Batman the Animated series
was its own stand alone and then both of those continuities are fairly linked to
the Justice League animated show that had the voice actors from both of those shows
in them. And to me that you know, Kevin Connor was one of
my absolute favorite Batman's and I always thought part of what made the Batman character
work so well is how set apart he is from the rest of the Justice
League, and he's this wonderful contrast to them, and that's why him and
Waller sometimes connect in ways that the others don't. So, yeah, I
can see that once everyone is down to that level, Yeah, it kind
of takes away from the power of the contrast to Batman and the way they
can contrast everybody else, and then also takes the light off of them.
Oh yeah. And like the one of the tricks that the comics love to
pull is like, here's the whole team. It's usually the Justice League,
sometimes the Team Titans, and they'll do it with Robin. But all of
these godlike superpowered beings have been taken out and it's only the regular guy left
and he saves the day. And you can't do it that if they're all
regular guys. So you don't even get to have your Batman's cooler than everybody
else moment if they're all as cool as Batman. But also, like I
think each character, each superhero, because you mentioned before, like the DC
universe has Metropolis, it has Gotham, it has Star City, it has
Central City. Each superhero is a reflection of their city, and each city
is a reflection of their superhero and it's done to best effect with Metropolis and
Gotham, and I guess you could argue it's done with them Askia and Wonder
Woman, although she has lived in like American cities at different times. And
I feel like there are flash comics and flash the TV show gets sometimes that
really like brings that out with Central City and Keystone, like they all sort
of exist in their own little heightened pockets of reality, their own little fiefdoms,
and then you combine them. So it's, yes, Batman does stand
apart from the rest of the Justice League, but it's it's more like all
of these extremely specific ideas coming together as opposed to like six people who are
the same and then there's Batman. The other thing I was gonna say,
when you're talking about Gotham being really comic bookie, the show that for me
really did that. Like, obviously, you're right, Spider Verse does the
best job of translating a comic book to screen, but Legends of Tomorrow,
Yeah, I found Legends of Tomorrow to be so like I loved it so
much because it embraced the giddy nonsense of comic books so like gleefully and without
shame, and was just like, yeah, this is nonsense. We're having
so much fun. We're going to cowboy time, so we're going to go
into our magic clothing room and put on our cowboy outfit so we can go
collect the dinosaur that's here by accident. And I was like, yes,
please continue to do this. Yeah, no, it in many ways that
that show always felt to me. It took a little while for me to
get that show, and the first I thought the first season was very rough,
But once I got it, it felt a lot like someone had taken
the magic that made Doctor Who's so interesting all of that, like we're just
going to bounce around in space and time and then combine it with the superhero
show and made something really fun. See that's so funny to me because the
very first episode, I remember going, oh, this is a comic book,
Like this is actually like the way that the teams and most the pacing
of it is exactly the way it would be in a comic book. They
could have been adapting it. They weren't. There's no analog to it really
in the comics, but they literally they could have been adapting a graphic novel
page by page and that like it just I was like, Oh, the
people in that room no comics, and yeah, they are having a grand
old time. And then may even part of why it left me because as
I've said, I'm the dirty casual, I'm someone who loves these characters,
loves these stories. I don't really know comic books themselves. There's so much
more we can go into here, and we'll probably bounce back to these larger
topics. But let's start going through some of the individual things. And you,
as the person who I think technically still has a start, technically still
has a Superman podcast, even though I think the last episode was three years
ago. So if you're watching the animated series, maybe make an episode for
us sometimes soon, please, But let's start with the Superman movie that they've
talked about no more. Henry Cavill, who I know you have both,
I know you've had kind of mixed feelings with him a Superman. What's your
take on, first of all this stuff that happened with Cavell and with this
new idea of the kind of younger family origin story, not an origin story,
but kind of like talking about him and his roots story that they want
to do with Superman. Well, I, first of all, I will
say I really liked Cavell himself as Superman. I thought he did a very
good job with very bad material, like he was doing his best. It
was not his fault. And he also just literally just looks like a drawing
of Superman, like it's like a cartoon. It's ridiculous. I don't blame
him for the fact that I did not enjoy any of the movies that he
was in as Superman. So yeah, I am conflicted about his Superman,
but not because of his acting. And you know, we're never going to
know all the ins and outs of what exactly happened, but it seems like
he was treated very badly by Warner Brothers, like basically encouraged to believe that
he was coming back and to announce that he was coming back, and he
like filmed that scene the end credit scene for Black Adam and it was a
whole thing. And did he quit the Witcher because he thought he was getting
Superman movie Superman money or did he quit the Witcher because he hated being on
the Witcher? We don't know, but I mean they humiliated him, like
whether or not. Yeah, he's a millionaire, he's fine, but like
it was rude. It was very rude, and so I like, I
kind of feel for him that he's never going to get a chance to show
what he can do with a Superman who's written like Superman. But you know,
maybe we'll get someone even better. I have dropped my Superman acting expectations
after Tyler Hecklin, who I thought was going to be horrible like, I
was like that he's all wrong and he's wonderful as Superman in um Supergirl and
Superman in lois, Like, I think, I think he really gets the
character, the same matchup. I realized that they have a shared continuity there.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's the same sort of the same universe.
I don't really I stopped watching all the dc W shows, so I don't
know they're must extend, but the extended airroverse at this point, right,
it's the same. It's the same Superman across the board. And I think
he's fantastic. Um, so hopefully, you know, I think James Gunn
is very good at casting. Um, hopefully we get someone good. UM.
I did like a lot of the stuff that they were saying about,
like Superman being about kindness and hope. Um, and uh here, okay,
here's a quote from um oh the other guy Peter Saffron. Um,
he is the embodiment of truth, justice and the American way. He is
kindness in a world that thinks of kindness is all old fashioned, which yes,
yeah, great job, yeah, please, thank you. Let's not
have a movie where he has to learn that killing is bad by killing someone
and I believe it was Peter who also said later, either in that same
interview or a different one, that he was very specific than when he says
the American way. He doesn't mean what that means to people today, and
he doesn't even mean like what America actually was in the fifties. He kind
of means the idealized image of America from the nineteen fifties or around then,
you know, which is you can get into all the politics what that means.
But he does, by no means does he mean ra America, you
know, American nationalism or anything like that. Yeah, so that's reassuring.
I don't really care about Kryptonian stuff. If I were in charge of a
Superman movie, I would make it a workplace romcom. I think that's the
fun stuff. But we're getting that there's going to be an animated show My
Ventures with Superman, I think is the title coming pretty soon? So I
will have my needs met with that. They could do what they want with
the movie. Yeah, I just I find the emphasis on Krypton to be
sort of missing the point and focusing on Clark's literal alienation as opposed to his
humanity. But you know, it's it's so little information to have at this
point that I guess we'll see that. We do know that James Gunn is
going to write it and possibly direct. They haven't decided which. He's saying
all the right things to me as a writer and a director, I actually
find him quite cynical. To me, he's the guy who can never let
an honest emotional moment sit. It has to be undercut with a joke immediately,
and I'll be interested to see his take. But he's also not someone
who I'm like, oh God, please know so right well, And that
may be just a fundamental difference between the two of us and why I'm a
Batman person and you're a Superman person, Because to me, I find that
the honest emotional moment that doesn't eventually have the joke just feels so sacrin and
fake to me. That that's why to me, guns expression of uh,
you know, emotion feels so perfect. But I get that, and I
think that'll be an okay bersuaye. I mean, yeah, well not the
billionaire part, but yes, yes, exactly so. But that's a good
segue to go to Superman. The I know, been your favorite segue into
even more so than Batman my favorite part of the universe who's also getting their
own content, Because yes, there's all inspirational, but is it. I'm
a very cynical person, and I'm a person who when you show me a
whole bunch of inspirational, larger than life role model figures, I want to
believe it. But a part of me is going to side with a person
who's like, poke, poke, poke, are you real? Should I
have some kryptonite just waiting just in case you go bad? So let's talk
about Amanda Waller getting her own show, because I feel like that that is
the role she kind of has always played in that universe, is of the
like, sure, you all say you're these great role models, but I'm
going to have everything ready in case you go bad and maybe trying to control
you're just in case. Anyway, what's your take on on Waller getting her
own show? Well, I do want to say you might actually in this
analogy be Lois Lane. That's fair because Lois is the one who's like,
this can't be real? Wait is this real? Yeah? So you may
fall in love with an alien. I'm just you know, it may happen
to this day. The first instance of pure romance that I ever saw was
being four years old and watching Christopher Reeve take her take Margot Kitty flying on
that horrible blue screen that looked so revolutionary at the time in that original movie.
So who knows. I'm ready to be taken to the top of the
umpire stabling. But yeah, I think. I mean, we've talked about
the I get I guess it's part of the DCU. I feel like the
Susie Squad EU is sort of its own thing. But we've talked about Viola
Davis's version of Amanda Waller will put it that way, And I mean she's
tremendous in the role, because she's tremendous in every role. There's a reason
she has an egot. Now, I think she's amazing. I prefer Waller
as someone who is ruthless in her pursuit of what she believes to be the
right thing. And I find that modern takes on her and it's the the
movies and TV as well as the comics do this too, tend to position
and her is more of a villain, which I don't That's not my preference.
Yeah, but it's all very well written and very well acted. So
like you know, with all these characters, like, there's a range of
how they can be portrayed, and so while I would rather see her as
like I said, like this character who does the really hard things when the
hard things need to be done, and you often just want to shake her,
but she's doing what she thinks is right for her country in the world.
I can't really fall like it's been successful and she's she does. The
character is great, the acting is great, the writing is great. So
yeah, I mean, I think I think this should be a very good
show. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be. Yeah, I
think I agree with you. I have enjoyed Viola Davis. I think she's
awesome in the part. I you know, no no shade against the younger,
more conventionally attractive actresses who've played her in other things like in the ar
But I really appreciate that that, you know, Violet Davis, who is
absolutely gorgeous and magnetic, but still is an older, heavier woman than a
lot of the off people you often see as powerful women on screen. It
has gravitas, yes, exactly, exactly, and um, but yeah,
to me, my favorite image of Amanda Waller is from that animated world we
were talking about where she is. I think like that that Amanda Waller to
me, wouldn't just you know, shoot twenty of her own people because it's
going to help her get away and keep her secret. But she's the one
who, like I said, like she and Batman will see eye to eye
when Superman goes rogue and all of a sudden, they both have kryptonite that
they just conveniently have been having with them for any purpose, you know,
and like there's so much kryptonite on Earth. That planet was really far away,
you know, comments do what the college should be the commic to do.
But but yeah, so I think you're right, it's not it's not.
I would love it if they leaned more into that, more her as
antagonist to the Justice League types and anti hero type, but where like you
don't like what she's doing and you disagree with her, but you understand her
point of view and maybe she's right in a way you don't want to accept.
Like that to me is the ideal, and I wish they would get
there. But whatever the hell they do, it's Amanda Waller as Violet Davis,
and I'm going to be happy with that exactly. Yeah, especially because
you're right, and this is kind of I think one of the overall questions
I have is like they'd I don't know what the hell the continuity is.
I mean, the whole point apparently was the Flash movie was going to be
the thing that gave us all the explanation of the continuity. But then the
main star of that movie has completely self destructed and a mental health crisis that
I wish all the best for them, but I also understand that they should
be facing some consequences for the people they've heard, but also like, what
the hell do you do with that movie when that's the lynchpin of everything in
theory. I can't believe they're still releasing it. I don't get it.
But but so that being said, because you're right, I think if I
if I had a favorite overall piece of continuity in the DC that's been on
screen in the last twenty years or so, my first choice would have been,
um, the Arrow Verse and all that, But quickly coming up second,
maybe even passing it, is now the Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Birds
of Prey, like mini continuity, um, because all that's sort of full
verse. Yeah, I think that. That's that's approcly fair way to put
it. You've seen Peace. I think we talked about Peacemaker right now.
It's so much better than have you not seen it? I haven't seen it?
Okay, eventually, I told you I'm watching Superman, the animated series.
I have twenty years to catch up on. That's fair. That's fair.
It is. It is very different, and it is so much better
than it has any right to be. Um, I've heard really good things.
That's the show again in twenty forty three, and we can talk.
We'll do anyway. So those are two things we're not going to get to
all ten in in in the hour, so they want this episode to be
well, they touching them briefly. But it's my show, so I get
to talk about my favorites. Let's keep going down that road. The Brave
and the Bold Batman, which you know my frequent podcast partner Paul has been
telling me about The Brave and the Bowld for a long time. I think
there's an animated show by that name. I think there's also a comic book
run. Um. Yeah, I can't help hearing it without thinking it's a
Batman soap opera because it just sounds so much like you know, The Brave
and the Beautiful God I wish um. But so, yeah, what is
the Brave and the Bowl about and what do you think about it coming to
screen? So The Brave and the Bold was originally a comic book design.
It was just it was a team up book. It was every issue,
it's going to be two different heroes. It could be anybody. It could
be a Flash and Green Arrow, it could be Aquaman and Swamp Thing,
it could be like whoever. Eventually it became specifically a Batman team up book,
So every issue is Batman and dead Man, Batman and the Phantom Stranger
whoever they have. Since it was eventually canceled, DC has since revived it.
Sometimes it's a Batman and Whoever projects. Sometimes it's just a team up
book. But it is sort of an iconic phrase in the DC universe.
Like there's one of my favorite comics ever is Green Arrow Quiver. When Oliver
Queen Green Arrow comes back from the dead and he's running around being resurrected,
and Batman is like has to get involved, and they decide to go off
on a mission together and Oliver ver says something along the lines of like,
I could use some backup if you're feeling a little brave and bold. And
it doesn't make any sense that he would say that because they don't know the
titles of their comics. But it's still very cute. And then yes,
there was in two thousand and eight, there was a Batman cartoon called Batman
The Even the Bold, which is very much sort of a throwback to nineteen
forties fifties aesthetic. It's very fun, really really cute, highly recommended.
So yeah, it is a generic term but also strongly associated with Batman.
The movie is going to be a Batman in Robin movie, which we have
not had since the nineties. I remember seeing that movie in theaters. It's
terrible. I love it. And the Robin that they're using is Damian Wayne,
who is the current Robin. He's the fifth Robin in continuity. He's
Bruce Wayne's biological son. His mother is Talia Elgol, who is the daughter
of ros Algol. He was raised by the League of Assassins until he was
ten, which is when Bruce met him, and I love him. He's
one of my favorite characters. Like, he's a horrible brand. He is
murdered many people, but he's trying to be better. Bruce has absolutely no
idea how to parent him. It's a disaster. I just think this is
going to be so much fun. Like it's I cannot wait to see this
movie. I cannot wait to see James Gunn's take on these characters. I'm
very excited for this. Yeah, that it does sound awesome, and I
will say the TV show Titans has a lot of issues. The writing is
incredibly and consistent. I think it veers back and forth between trying to be
that larger than life comic book thing but also trying to be very grounded in
ways that just makes none of it work. But I think some of the
best parts is that it explores in ways that my understandings have explored in great
depth on page, but not really very often on screen. You know just
what a dysfunctional family the back Family is and how all that plays out.
And in the show, that primary dynamic is between Dick Grayson, who has
left Batman. The show is kind of about him becoming Nightwing, but a
big part of that is about him having all of these like very mixed feelings
about Bruce and both very angry that Bruce made him into Robin and having a
long desire to a strong desire to reject that and to talk about how abusive
that was to him as a child, while also then watching um, it's
not Chuck Todd, it's Jon Jason Todd, thank you as the new like
he I love being Robin, I love being working with that man, and
he's both like, oh God, I have to rescue this kid and oh
god, this kid's a total snot. I want to smack him, and
oh god, did I really mean that little to Daddy? That did I
really mean that little to Bruce? That Bruce has replaced me so quick?
And I wish it had gotten better dialogue because the moments when it is good,
it is so heartwrenching and shows you that even the kind of larger than
versions can I mean, I'm someone who's had problems with my father and I
could relate to an awful lot of it, even though not the same.
And so yeah, I'm excited to see that story. I've heard so much
about Damien. I really do hope, though, they commit to that larger
bat story, because yes, I think him and Damien would be great.
But getting to see the people who were within the family and the people who
have left the family or are kind of on like different terms. And we've
seen some version of this with all the Red Hood stuff where Jason Todd often
who you know, kind of goes rogue and all that that whole set of
stories. But even leaving that out, I just think there's so much room
to explore of you know, Batman has raised this little army of kids to
do what he wants and what has that done to them? Was that done
to him and all that together? Oh? Yeah, absolutely? And like
the first thing that every comic book fan that I know said after this was
announced was okay, but are they going to have had the other Robins?
Like when day me and shows up, is he going to be Robin number
one or is he going to be Robin number five? And we don't know,
we don't have any information on that. To me, the character doesn't
really make sense if he's Robin number one. But that doesn't mean they could
cut out They'll probably cut out Steph because they always want to cut out the
girl. But so much of Bruce and Damien's relationship revolves around he's the biological
son, but he's not the song that Bruce chose or seems to want.
Like literally recently in the comics, Bruce said to him, Damian, you're
my son, and I love you, but sometimes I don't like you very
much. Damien's fourteen. Who says that to a fourteen year old? And
it like Damien quotes it back to him later because he's, yeah, like,
what the hell? And I obviously like, if you find out that
you have a ten year old son who is raised by assassins, it's going
to be a fraught relationship no matter how many Circus orphans you've adopted. But
I just feel like knowing that there have been others and having their legacy to
live up to is so it adds so much to Damien's character because he feels
like he has so much to prove. I'm sure in the comics, is
there someone else who is a Robin at the time that Damien comes along or
is there? Yeah, you can see that being a whole other thing of
like, Okay, it's Tim, and Damien pretty much immediately tries to murder
him. It's very funny. And then like so it's Tim, Damien tries
to murder him, does not succeed, and then Bruce dies, it turns
out he's not actually dead, he's lost in time. So Dick becomes Batman
and he's like, I don't know what to do with this ten year old
kid. Um, I guess you're Robin now. And Tim's like he tried
to murder me, and Dick is like, sorry, bro, it's very
good. I'm both excited for this movie. And I have no idea why
this isn't a TV show. It should be a I mean, like you
said, it's a soap opera. It should be a TV show that runs
for twenty years. And you have like seven different actors playing Alfred over the
years because they all leave. I like that. I like that well,
And so that's that would be the last question I'd tie in with, and
I can move on to some of the other things. Is I don't remember
if you and I've talked about it and you may have been a guest on
my podcast, which because I completely apologize actually at Sofia, did you and
I have you and I talked about the patents in Batman Confession. You haven't
seen it? I haven't seen it, okay, Okay. I literally got
an HBO Max login so that I could watch it, and then instead I
watched all of Batman the animated series. Okay, well I was gonna do
all that off air, but I'm gonna leave this on air because it's kind
of hilarious. I won't ask you about why the patentson isn't going to be
that Batman. When you watch it, I'll be really curious your thoughts on
it, because I do think it it has a lot of the dark gritty
but also a lot more of the hope that I think you're talking about,
and I'll be very curious your thoughts on it. No, I really want
to watch it. I do think that DC is afraid, like if they
have a project that works, like the Batman and Joker, they're afraid to
tie it into other stuff because that will break it. Yeah, and so
they're like, wellich is it's working, we just don't don't touch it.
And frankly, as the other thing, go ahead. Oh the other thing
I was going to say about Damien real quick. If you're not familiar with
the character, I highly recommend these Supersun's animated movie that just came out.
It's very It's Damien and his best friend, who's John Kent, Superman's son,
and it's delightful. It's a really really good take on both characters.
Interesting, Okay, I don't think check that out. And just what we're
saying for about that continuity and stuff, maybe that's the best way of understanding
this is I think people are looking to Marvel as the model, where there
is the Marvel Universe and then there's little weird stuff that Sony does off to
the side, but the Marvel stuff is all part of the MCU and and
I think a lot of people, myself included, are thinking, Okay,
what gun is going to do is bring everything DC like, wrap the big
arms out, bring it all under the tent. And maybe actually the way
they're going to do is something a little more news, a little more open
of there's going to continue to be the Batman universe over there with Pattinson,
because that is awesome. They're going to continue to be the Peacemaker Universe and
the Suicide Squad, and maybe that's gonna tie in. Maybe that's not that
continue to be all this other stuff, and then there's going to be this
particular version of a set of characters who all tie in together. And like
some of the recent podcasts I've been doing have been about a lot of the
DC animated movies, which I think are phenomenal, not all of them,
but like we just an episode on Long Halloween, which is one of my
favorites, and none of those fit into a single unified cannon and they don't
have to, and maybe that's the best way to understand what they're doing.
Yeah, And I mean, I think it's important to remember that the MCU
is a very relatively recent development. I mean, we've had superhero movies.
We've had superheroes on screen since like nineteen forty. We've had superhero movies like
Big feature film since nineteen seventy eight. We haven't had crossovers, let alone
a shared universe until twenty twelve. So the idea that like the MCU is
the way that you do that and everybody, I mean, remember when Universal
tried to do a Universal Monster movie universe. God, Like, maybe we
don't like. Look, I'm a DC Universe fan. I love the shared
universe. That's why I read the comics. I love that these characters interact,
but we don't have to do that. Like Christopher Reeve did not hang
out with Michael Keaton and that was okay. Actually, yeah. And I
also think that like Batman and Superman are very iconic in the way that like
many people are fans of the characters without really consuming the comics, but even
a lot of the movies and TV because you just you kind of know their
deal anyway. So you can do these really easy standalones and it's not like
where you had to kind of explain to everybody who's thor like you don't have
to tell me who Wonder Woman is. It's in the name, I got
it. Yeah, I think I think it's a really good point. So
getting back to these projects, we want hope, we want inspiration, and
especially we can find that, I think on a place called Paradise Island,
where we're far from the rules of men and so we don't have all the
patriarchy and all the nonsense, but we do have Game of Thrones internal politics.
Apparently, what's your take on Paradise lost by Let's see, we've got
two male executives and they the article that I the Variety article that I read
announcing this compared it to a comic by two male comic book creators. I
don't want to see a bunch of sis men's take on an all female utopia,
and I think their whole like they've said, like it's about like the
dark secrets behind Themiscia, I don't want that, and like I the degree
to which that is missing the point, like Paradise Island, comes from a
very long history of concepts of an all female utopia from feminist writing. It
goes back literally sanctuaries and to be like, ah, there's the dark CD
underbelly like Game of Thrones. No, no, no, there's it goes
back to the stuff I was saying when we started recording seventeen hours ago,
like it's there's metaphor happening here. It's not just like wow, these these
ladies are strong and they were togas they are a metaphor. There is a
deeper idea that is happening. And to be like, actually it's corrupt is
offensive? Yeah? Yeah, it does seem to me that was the one
that really stood out as really totally missing the point, and not only just
the kind of idea of DC that we're talking about, but of what that
was all meant to be. You know, like you said, this idea
of kind of the women utopia that goes back centuries Bill Marston, who created
Wonder Woman, he was very much a devote of that. I think we
can with today's eyes look back and sort of have some like, you know,
to some extent, there's a lot of kind of like his ideas of
male submission, female dominance that that get tied into it. And there's sort
of a little bit of like how often are they having pillow fights in his
mind on this world all the time? Yeah, but like but still it
is so clearly supposed to be that kind of place of perfection, and so
that's part of why the idea of why Diana would leave that is so interesting,
because it is a place of perfection, but you want to say,
a place of like, you know, of not stuckness, but you know
of like sameness in some remords unchanging. Yeah. And to me, what
they're doing with this represents what I think is worst about the whole dark,
gritty idea, which is the idea that happiness is boring, that you that
the only thing that's interesting is trouble, you know, And this is why
you so rarely get just like a romantic couple who gets together and just stays
together for a couple of seasons or a couple of movies, because we always
want to see the fight, we always and that's such a romantic team.
It's also teams, you know, we can't ever just see the Avengers be
the Avengers. They have to break up and they get back together and say
anything with all these groups and you know, is there a movie? Is
there a show? Is there? Is there ten episodes worth of content of
everything on them Ascara being perfect and wonderful? Probably not? But does that
mean you have to take like, I still think you could have lots of
other stuff about you know, you know other you know, some others maybe
following Diana's example and leaving and how does that affect things? And they're being
you know, shifts and changes. But without this idea of it seems that
like, and here I'm probably contradicting myself because I know I've said for a
while of like, I just have trouble believing that idea of Superman being this
perfect, perfect being. But I think Themiscara is said to be part of
that For me is that I have so much trouble believing that a person raised
on this earth, in this world could not fall into some of the toxic
masculinity or any other stuff that is just around us in this world. Them
Ascara is fundamentally supposed to be a place separate from that. And it's not
that I think men are the cause of all evil in the world by any
means, but that I do think that to take this idea of them ascara
and just throw that instead of saying, so, what would life, what
would the conflicts be like? When it's totally different from what we can understand
for it to be men kind of saying no, no, no, your
world of women isn't It just feels I feel like I'm speaking over you now
because I'm just kind of repeating it. But I share the upsetness of this
is not a man's place to say, Oh, actually, your female utopia
has all the same problems we do. Oh yeah, And I think that's
it. I agree with you that it's taking something that is meant to be
good and happy in making it ced just for the sake of being ced.
But it's also taking something. Sometimes you're not the audience for something, you
know. Sometimes it's taking a utopia that it is cis men taking a utopia
that was not created for them and dismantling it, and that feels very much
like co opting something that doesn't belong to them, just as if you know,
I were as if I were to be like, I'm going to show
how Black Panther is actually bad, Like no, wow, no, like
these there are things that are meant to bring, like we said before,
inspiration and or solace to groups that aren't you, and to like, I'm
not telling anybody what they can or can't can't write. You can write whatever
you want, but it just it just kind of seems like a jerk move
to be like I'm gonna I'm gonna kick sand on that, I'm gonna mess
that up. You don't get to have that. And I think the Black
Panther example is actually really perfect because Ryan Coogler was very clear the writer and
director of that movie that when he took that character, he wanted to play
with the character a little bit and expose some of the concerns that he that
that within a black community could be raised about that. And again not to
say that you have to be in that community to raise the concerns, but
I think the fact that it was him telling that story, listening to other
black voices telling that story, and then within that saying what are the conflicts
we can raise within that? Like, I think that could be give me
that kind of storytelling for Themaskara, I think could be really interesting, you
know. And and I also want to caution myself the less to you,
but just to me, this is also like two paragraphs in a idea for
something that's years in the making, So it's entirely possible. I think that
they at some point realize, oh wait, maybe Patty Patty Jennings and some
other people should like come in and and have some ideas and we should shut
up and just write the checks. I don't know what's going to actually happen.
Yeah, I'm just saying a little. We have to go on.
There are some concerns, right and like I mean again, like the what
you're saying about Ryan Coogler, like and that is his place to write that
story. I am not the person to write about the corruption of Wakanda,
because that would be messed up and racist of me, Like that wouldn't be
okay. Like it's meant to be a black utopia, or at least if
not a utopia, then a place that has never been touched by colonialism or
never been the victims of colonialism. So if I was like, but actually
they are the colonizers, like wow, out of line, that is not
the story for me to write. So it's not to say that there can't
be stories about corruption in Themiscia, and there have been stories about like dark
secrets and flaws that actually there are a couple of different stories that DC is
publishing right now about that they're written by women and the vibe is totally different.
And you're right, maybe this project will be written by women and directed
by women and it won't be an issue. But honestly, if I you
told me to pick out of these ten projects with one I think is the
least likely to be made, it would be this. I don't think this
is ever going to be filmed. I would be shocked. This is gonna
have slight spoilers for an episode and I think season two, possibly season one
of Harley Quinn, So skip ahead if you don't want to hear that.
Sorry, Jess, your captive audience. Boys, all right there. I
feel like all these saying has been perfectly done already because there was an episode
of Harley Quinn where one of the characters is getting ready to go get married,
and so they have a bachelor party, a bachelorette party on Themiscara and
Themiscara has been taken over by a girl boss who wants to touristize the whole
thing, and so it's just making it this like tourist destination and for bachelorette
parties and girl boss trips and making hercules dance for everybody and stuff like that,
and it's okay, that's amazing. It's fantastic, and it's hilarious,
and yeah, it's the kind of thing where you can see someone like being
like, this is so perfect, let's monetize it. Like a lot of
things with a Harley Quinn show, they're all so far off the park,
but yet so like there's such brilliant metaphor in it while it being like gross
out and horrible and hilarious. And that episode especially is just chef's kiss.
Let's get to some of these others, especially some of the ones that I
and so I assume my extension a lot of my fans that you probably are
more knowledgeable than that I am, but no, it's my show. I
get to claim it. Probably don't know much about what's the authority. So
the Authority. I actually am not super familiar with them. They are a
team. They were originally published by, so DC had like separate imprints that
were not at all connected to the DCU. So the Authority originally came out
of I want to say Wild and it was a separate universe like not.
And I don't mean a separate universe like you know, Grant Gustin is the
flash over here and Ezra Miller is the flash over there. I mean like
it was unrelated in any way. And they were very like it was the
early two thousands of Super like edgy and dark and everybody's wearing black leather and
they kill people. So it should do very well as a movie because that's
what I mean, that's what Warner Brothers knows how to do. That's what
they want to do. That's what a large part of the audience wants.
Like I think it's going to appeal to people who like Punisher and you know,
the boys and all that stuff, and that's I mean. The thing
is, I don't care about the Authority, So you're not going to break
my heart if you make an authority movie that I don't enjoy, because the
way that it would break my heart to see a Supergirl movie that I don't
enjoy because like, I just think it's it's a smart move. It'll translate
really well to what we tend to see on screen. But the interesting thing
about it is that the team actually has these characters Midnighter and Apollo, who
are meant to be analogs for Batman and Superman. Like there's the guy who's
in black leather and he's really gritty and dark and growley, and he's good
at karate. And then there's the godlike being powered by sunlight and they are
married. They're a couple O nice, and so these characters have Now a
wild Storm doesn't exist anymore. These characters are just in the regular DC universe.
So sometimes you just see Midnighter and Batman next to each other and it's
like, why are there two of you but one doesn't have ears? Like
it's it's very weird, but I sort of love the idea of like here
you go, like the darkest, grittiest, most violent movie. These guys
are husbands. They're the main characters. Like, yeah, there's something very
I don't know, it's it's unexpected, it's gonna I think make it's going
to make a lot of people who would never see a movie with gay characters
see a movie with gay characters. Yeah, and hey, I said,
this is when I wrote about all these projects for book Riot. But DC
can finally beat Marvel at something. Yeah, they can have main gay characters
in a movie and not just one of the Russo's being like my husband died,
who was sad and them being like we're groundbreaking. Yeah, yeah,
I hear that, And I think in some ways, Hey, I do
think like, even if we're in a world where there are a lot of
Superman type people, I still want someone who's a contrast. You know,
one of my favorite Superman stories is Kingdom Come, where he has to deal
with this, like he's kind of taking on more and more power and dealing
with superheroes. We're getting out of control and what do you do with all
that. The other thing, though, is that, Okay, so this
is a kind of ragtag bunch of anti hero sort of heroes who most of
the general public knows very little about who we're going to get introduced in this
movie. That will be about them kind of being like the not great people
but who still do good things in the end. That's Guardians of the Galaxy,
and that's the Suicide Squad that like that is a recipe that we know
that gun can do really well. So absolutely, and as well the fact
that, like you said, it's I've always thought Marvel had it someone easier
that for most of us, I didn't care about Captain America. So if
you gave me a bad Captain America movie, who cares. But when you
gave me a good one, I didn't have thirty years of expectations to compare
it to exactly. So okay. So for the next one, I want
to see how well you are plugged into what other people are saying about these
things. I'm going to read you a quote from a really good author who
wrote an incredible piece about this, and tell me if you can guess which
project they're talking about. And they wrote, this is the movie I'd be
most excited for if I if I had any faith, it would actually get
written. Oh that I think the names m Jennifer Jennifer. I am quoting
Jessica to Jessica, I'd be using it. She wrote a great article for
Book Riot. The link will begin it. And that's how you started to
describe Booster Gold. So yes, who is Booster Gold? And why would
you love to see his film? And why do you not think it's going
to happen? Booster Gold, My darling, Booster Gold is the DC character
that I relate to the most strongly. Um. He is a college football
player from the twenty twenty fifth century, just like me, who gets kicked
out for he's a college football player. He gets kicked off the team for
betting on his own games. So he steals a bunch of future tech and
comes back to now to be a superhero and start his life over. He
is just an attention hound glory hog. He wants to be famous. He
like in many DC comics, will just show characters eating like Booster cereal or
brushing our teeth with like Booster pace, like he is branded from like to
Hell and back. He just loves attention and desperately needs validation, and under
that is a really good person trying to make up for his wrongs. He
of course first showed up in the eighties because loud and flashy, desperate for
attention and willing to take endorsements, and like they he was literally you know
how like Superman is the Man of Tomorrow and Man of Seal whatever. He
was the capitalist crusader. Oh my god, it's so perfect. The eighties,
just completely ridiculous. Please tell me he had like Lex Corp Written on
the back of his cape or something like that, like he would have if
he and Lex didn't absolutely hate each other, like they they have bad blood
right from the beginning. But he and Superman also don't like each other.
He's very obnoxious and he just wants everybody to pay attention to him all the
time, and I feel that very deeply. So. He's also had a
long running friendship with Blue Beatle, not the one who the movie is going
to be about, but the guy before him, So like their relationship.
They were very much like the Abbot and Costello of the DC universe for a
long time. He's a comedy character, like he has always been intended to
be a funny character. I think James Gunn like he's He's a perfect character
for James Gunn, and James Gunn is a perfect writer for Booster because he
has that like immature, self involved himbo who at the end of the day
will do the right thing that we see you know, very much from like
star Lord, like it's the same kind of vibe as a character. All
that said, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, DC first
announced Booster Gold TV show sci Fi had ordered one in twenty eleven, and
they have since. They've said, oh, there's going to be a Blue
and Gold like Blue Beetold Booster Gold movie. No, it's gonna be a
TV show. No, they're gonna do this, They're gonna There have been
so many projects announced with him, and it makes sense because he's a really
fun character and he's he's not someone who it's like, oh, he's the
third Robin or the eighth Green Lantern, and he like, he's not tied
into other stuff. You can just have a Booster Gold movie. You don't
have to have any other superheroes in it. And it still makes sense.
But I mean, in some ways hasn't happened yet. In some ways and
this might should not be possible any current media age we live in. But
it makes me really miss the days where unless you were really really digging deep,
you didn't know a new movie was coming. So he saw the trailer
for it for the first time and like, yeah, I hope this works
out. If we get yet another version of trying a ten year plan five
years from now. At that point, I hope they just say we're going
to make movies and TV shows and you'll know about them when we announce them,
and just like stop all the pre hype because you're right, Like,
I think what Gun is trying to do is very ambitious. I think it's
a plan that's given me the most hope for DC in a long time.
But he has a ten year plan and a four year contract, so we'll
see. Yeah, for the next one. Give one. I know about
you and the stuff you love. You know, I know how much you
you often talk about like you need for more women heroes. Totally agreed,
want to see more of that on screen. I know you love optimistic characters
and characters that young girls especially can relate to, and happy stories. So
start so Supergirl. We're really excited for the Supergirl movie, right. Why
are you bullying me? Because all I saw was that the first thing under
the bad in your article is Supergirl, and I went what And I intentually
didn't read anything else, just so I could be like, it's got to
be really bad, because you understand why I would think this would be one
of the things to be most excited about. So what's happening You think,
what's the Game of Thrones, A vacations happening here? It's exactly what's happening
here. So the plan for the Supergirl movie is to base it on a
comic that just came out over the past like a year or two called Supergirl
Woman of Tomorrow. It is by It was written by Tom King, it
was drawn by Bill Chris Eveley. I maybe pronouncing her name wrong. Beautiful
comic. Visually, it's stunning, like the art is exquisite. Tom King
is actually going to be one of the sort of architects of the dcum.
He's one of the people who's going to be in the writer's room for a
bunch of these projects. They are directly adapting his this comic for this movie,
and he's going to be involved in a bunch of other stuff. He
has written a great number of DC comics, especially recently, he wrote Batman
for like a hundred issues. I I don't vibe with his work at all,
and I at a Supergirl is my favorite character. She is my favorite
DC character. And I hated Woman of Tomorrow because I felt like it was
a betrayal of everything about her and everything that she stands for. It's,
first of all, it's not really about her. It's it's true grit in
space, Like literally, that's what it is. There's this alien girl named
Ruthie whose father is murdered, and so she hires Supergirl to help her track
down the murderer and get revenge. So the whole thing is from Ruthie's point
of view. It's about Ruthie's character, art and Ruthie's growth. So like,
we're not getting a Supergirl movie. We're getting a Ruthie movie. And
Ruthie is fine, but like Supergirl's my favorite character, I'd like her movie
to be about her. The Supergirl in this is a miserable, drunken mess.
When we first see her, she's drunken a bar, she's cursing,
she throws up. She has to be like really pushed into helping people because
she doesn't want to. She's just it's an incredibly bleak, nihilistic take on
her, which I mean that's very much. Tom King is a writer.
Everything he writes it's extremely nihilistic, which is not what I turned to superheroes
for. Like I want superheroes. To especially superheroes like Superman and Supergirl,
to show the best that we can be and that we can overcome. And
this story is not that. It also has nothing to do with any Supergirl
comic that's ever been published except her very first appearance, like it never it
doesn't. It doesn't reference anything else, literally, like that first comic in
nineteen fifty nine is the only comic it references. And if like you could
believe that no other Supergirl comics ever existed, even though that comic, that
origin story has been retconned out of existence four times, it's not true anymore.
That's what he's drawing on. So there's an issue where he goes into
the how Kara survived the destruction of Krypton, and it's glossed over in a
couple of panels in the nineteen fifty nine version, but here it's like and
then all the people died of cryptonite poisoning, and you see Kara like walking
down the street and there's just like dead bodies everywhere. She finds a dead
baby at one point. So this is a character who was designed for little
girls. Like that's not my opinion, that is historical fact. She was
created to get little girls to read comics. That's who she is for,
and her entire history has been ignored in favor of let's put some dead babies
in this story. And like, I just keep thinking of when the Supergirl
TV show started, Melissa Bannois, who played Supergirl, did all these like
little meet and greets and photo shoots and stuff with little girls, Like there's
one, there's a there's a set of photos of her meeting like a Girl
Scout troupe, and there's pictures of her meeting little girls who were in Supergirl
costumes, and everybody looks so happy and so joyful, and I just keep
thinking, like there are no superheroes for little girls besides Supergirl and Miss Marvel.
Yeah, and like wonder Woman, but she's an adult, Like there
are so few young female characters for little girls to look up to. And
the other female characters that we have, we have Black Widow, we have
Jessica Jones. They're wonderful characters. They're deeply traumatized characters who suffer horrible things.
And now we're going to have an R rated Supergirl movie that little girls
can't see and there's nothing to replace it because there are only two. There
are only two. No, there're three female led projects in this roster,
and they're all incredibly dark. Yeah, and like you said, like you
said, you know you talk about like two characters like Jessica Jones. To
me that that's part of why I don't want to see the story. I've
seen it. I've seen that drug character. Jessica Jones is arguably her Daredevil
in the cage. We're all just they're all fighting in my head for who's
the best. But her show is fantastic, her characters fantast It's very dark,
it's very greedy. I love that it exists, but yeah, I
can see Supergirl holding a very different role. And it's like you can't tell
a Batman story with Superman. You can't tell like Jessica Jones story with Supergirl.
They're not the same thing. And it just it's like I was saying
about the Themiscira show, not every story is for every audience, Like Paradise
Island exists for female audiences and Supergirl exists for little girls. And to turn
it into a story that they can no longer access and that they can no
longer take away from it, what is meant to be taken away, it
just feels it just feels greedy and mean to me, Like, yeah,
grown men have so many superheroes. They have ninety seven percent of the superheroes,
like leave one. It reminds me a lot. I don't know if
you've seen this or if you remember the conflicts about it, but when they
reboot Shira in a way that I think is one of the absolute best,
not superhero it's more like fantasy superpower type things, but one of the best
of that kind of show that I've ever seen. And they did make a
very conscious choice of the original was supposed to be kind of it was the
people who made he Man thinking they were making something for young girls very much
from what a young what men thought young girls would want, in an incredibly
patronizing and sexist way. And there's a lot of good in that show,
to be sure, and a lot of people love it, not taking away
from it, but the writers who are doing the new Shira really wanted to
be like, no, we want this to be for young girls, for
young queer kids, for everybody who feels like they don't fit in some way
or another. And there was a huge pushback from grown men who were angry
that her sht her skirt wasn't going to have was going to have short centers,
sort of like you know, upskirt panty shots, whatever the hell they
might want a kids show. Yeah, I see a lot of that same
kind of energy here, and again, maybe this is just being badly explained.
We'll get something very different, but that one, especially even more than
something Paradise Lost, feels like they're very clearly planting their flag in a place
I can see why you're not happy about. It's funny that you mentioned the
bike shorts, because that happened a Supergirl in the late two thousands. They
gave her bike shorts and people like under her skirt, and people got real
mad about it because they weren't ever going to show Supergirls panties anyway. But
now you couldn't pretend that they might show you this drawing of a sixteen year
old panties. Yeah, which, if you're mad about that, like,
go outside, Yeah, put down the comic book and go outside. Except
no, because I don't want the outside world to have to deal with you.
But yeah, so I get your point. I get your point.
All right, let's do bonus round, And it's the three that you have
listed under bizarre. So let me just start with one of my favorite characters
we've learned about from the Justice League Unlimited TV show and all that is John
Stuart Green Lantern, and I, like a lot of other people, have
been frustrated that we mostly get weird versions of how Jordan. Obviously, the
less said about the Ryan Reynolds movie, the better. But I hear that
we're going to get a Green Lantern movie, and on the one hand,
I'm like, yes, this sounds awesome. Granted, the attitude that I
have towards Universal Space Cops is a little bit differently than I would have had
towards Cops twenty years ago when I was seeing that show originally. But I'm
curious why you have to listen to the bizarre category what you think of it?
So I am not it's not bizarre because it's a Green Lantern project.
It makes total sense. Green Lantern is a huge franchise for the DC universe.
There are tons of extremely popular characters, and it it makes sense that
it would be James Gunn. He did a great Outer Space franchise, like
I would love to see I mean, I would love to see a Green
Lantern project that is similar to Guardians of the Galaxy. I think that could
be really fun, although confusing because the Green Lanterns are given their rings by
the Guardians of the Universe, who predate the Guardians of the Galaxy. I
just want to say most DC stuff is older than Marvel stuff, which is
Marvel doesn't more popularly. But the reason I have it, and I also
think so, they've basically said it's going to be a buddy cop movie about
or TV show rather about How Jordan and John Stewart, and I think that
makes a lot of sense because one of the issues with Green Lantern projects is
deciding who the main character is going to be. Because how Jordan has been
around since nineteen fifty nine. He's the one that a lot of people think
is like the classic iconic a lot of comic book fans think is the classic
iconic Green Lantern, and Jeff Johns. He's Jeff Johns's favorite character, and
that's why the first movie that Jeff John's really had a lot of power over
was the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern Movie, and we all saw how that went.
Whereas John Stewart is the one who people are most familiar with because of
the Justice League cartoon, and he's fantastic there, and he's by far the
most popular character, two people who like outside of comic book audiences. And
then there's also Kyle Rayner. In the nineties, How went evil and died
and was replaced by a young like hip like nineties radical Green Lantern Kyle Rayner,
and that was extremely controversial and that there was war between the How fans
and the Kyle fans. So it's always a question of do you make the
story about how If you make it about John, do you make it about
Kyle? If you make it about my favorite guy, Gardner, you shouldn't.
He's supporting character. But so making it about Howling John makes a lot
of sense. What I don't understand is why they were like, it's gonna
be like true Detective. Why what what this is? How Jordan is a
test pilot, John Stewart is an architect. They are not detectives. One
the one reason I can think about it, think think of for it is
and granted again I haven't read the comic books, but my experience of the
TV show versions of that, and then the few times that Green Lantern has
been done live action must specifically, in the Titans, there's a green lantern
who shows up? Oh which one? It's a young young girl, young
woman of color. Is it Jessica or Kelly? I couldn't remember. I'm
at the Google list. Sorry, you can cut this out. No,
it's fine. It's an interesting question. Um, one more reason for you
to watch the show. But um, but the point is that every time
I've seen the like, the idea of it, of summoning whatever you want
or need in that moment with your mind sounds really cool. The visual of
creating a big hammer or an airplane or some other weapon out of green light
that comes from your ring. Maybe this is just me. It looks really
cheesy and like to me, the true detective things. That's interesting because I
love detective stories, and frankly, if you're gonna telltective story, I would
rather be Batman being the detective. And one more reason why I love the
Robert Pattinson but hey, more detectives, more goodness. But also if maybe
it's much more about that, and so it's a lot less about summoning being
hammers with green rings, I think that's going to play better on screen.
I just I haven't seen the comic books. It may look amazing there,
I have real trouble imagining it carrying a show with that kind of power set
on screen. Yeah, I mean, I don't think like the budget loan.
I also like, I think as a nerd culture, we are increasingly
getting away from let's have everything BcgI all the time. And what I don't
want is for two miserable actors to be in a box in mo cap suits
filming twelve episodes where they never leave the box and they never get to interact
with physical prop. Ever, and Green Lantern is more prone to that than
anything else, because you know of the constructs. Like you were saying,
I fully love the I'm going to hit you with a big green hammer just
again because the same reason that I love Superman. It's all larger than life.
It's all silly, it's all cartoony, it's all hyper. This hyper
not realism, but it's heightened reality. It probably is something that plays better
in comic books and animation than live action. All that said, I mean,
like you said, the whole cop thing is iffy, and I feel
like steering into the detective angle makes it more that way, because the thing
is Green Lanterns don't have to be cops. That is a way to interpret
them. They can also be like space social workers. They can be whatever
you want. And I think really like pointing it in the detective direction,
well, I mean, I don't know. Like That's the thing. The
reason I put this in the bonker section is I just I can't visualize it.
It's so different from any Green Lantern story we've ever seen. And Green
Lantern, like Superman, is not a franchise that I think does going realistic
with it. I don't think is going to help because they're still going to
have rings that can make big green hammers. So like, I mean,
we didn't go realistic with the talking raccoon and his tree friend, so like.
But I also put it in bonkers because like, look, and I'm
going to get letters about this one. How Jordan's real dumb, So I
don't know how they're making him a detective because the man. I have seen
that man get knocked out by a paper plane. M I have seen that
man lose a fight to a seagull. Like I, this is cannon.
He's he has given himself so many concussions. It's not bad guys. He
just falls down and hits his head because his ring is all powerful. So
that's the only way you can stop him. I mean, you know,
Keystone Cops are still a cab, but are a lot more fun to watch
than So No, that I would watch if nothing else. I just want
John Stewart because this is a pretty white lineup, all told. So that's
that's another reason for a nice pierce of color. Any well, we don't
know that they could cast anyone. That's true. That's certainly very true.
Yeah, and that's actually a good point. I'm assuming based on who those
characters have traditionally been, Um, if nothing else, you know, if
if we're honoring the actual background, Damien should be Um, you know,
someone who looks like they have a whatever Bruce Wayne's heritage is, but also
an Arab parent of some kind. Yes, but the al Goals have never
been played by anybody but white people in uh live action. So well,
Nissa, I think yeah on the Arrow verse, but Roz has always been
a white actor. No, wasn't Ros played by um the actor who will
forever be doctor Basher to me? But he's a I believe it's Pakistani.
He's definitely South Asian. Um, look up his name in the raw verse
in some on screen thing, Alexander Siddek wasn't he hasn't He played Rozalcool at
some point. Ay, uh, let me look up. He's Sudanese by
the way. Uh. And oh in Gotham, I haven't seen God.
Yeah, okay, so there we go. All right, my bad,
I take it back. There we go. There we go. But no.
Yeah. But but having at least having one character who we know is
canonically black, I think is a good thing. Yes. Um, so
you talked about universal failure to pull off a monster franchise. So is that
what Creature Commandos is going to be. I have no idea what Creature Commandos
is going to be. So in the comics, Creature Commandos is, um
all these universal monster characters. There there's a Frankenstein and a werewolf and a
vampire and um gorgon um and usually like a bride of Frankenstein character too.
Um who I think you we has like six arms. It's so weird.
And then they're they're in the army or they're in the military. It might
not be the army, but yeah, they fight Nazis. And then obviously
in modern day stuff. They fight. We'll probably still Nazis because it's comics,
but also other bad guys. I've never read any of their actual comics,
but I've read stuff where they like just show up and everybody's like,
oh, Frankenstein's here. It's usually he's like the main one. You usually
see Frankenstein and other stuff. He's actually I know we haven't gotten to him
yet, but he in swamp thing hang out. Sometimes they're bros. I'll
say, I'm a little more excited for Guermo de Toro's take on Frankenstein,
but we'll see what James Gunn can do with it. So yeah, and
I get the feeling. I suspect it's going to be like it's going to
be a cartoon an animated show. I suspect it's going to be like more
in the Harley Quinn Bane for adults. But honestly, I feel like it
could go either way and still work. Like you could have like a very
wink wink adult show about these characters, or you could have a really like
just fun kids show that's just like weird, like bat Wheels and they why
not both? Like I either way, I think it could be really fun
and they're not characters I care about, So if it's bad at and so
let's round up the group with swamp Thing. Who is swamp Thing and why
do we care? Um, he's a guy who died and became a thing
that is a swamp except he's not really Okay, well spoilers, he's not
really that guy anymore. But yeah, basically he is an element. He's
a plant elemental who's connected to like all it's called the green, but like
all of plant life on Earth, it's also what like plays an ivy,
draws on, etc. Um. He tends to be I haven't read a
lot of swamping comics. Again, he's a character who I've read when he
shows up in other stuff, Um, he tends to be in like very
um more sort of artsy, highbrow thoughtful comics like his eighties stuff by Alan
Moore was really groundbreaking, um and really changed like what people understood comics could
do and be Um does he hang out with a lot or are they seen
as like just so funny like different worlds that there? Yeah, I mean
they've interacted, but it really is sort of different worlds because she's very much
like I'm going to rob the plant Bank and Gotham with these plants like it's
you know, she she is much more on that down to earth level,
and he is very elemental. Like I said, although Jason Woodrow the floronic
man who in Wow does he arrange her to death? Um, actually you've
seen you've seen Batman and Robin right, Yes, you've seen him in a
movie. He's the guy who gives Ivy her power, who kills her and
she gets her powers. Okay, yep so, and in many continuities he
is like her mentor professor or boss who has an inappropriate relationship with her of
some kind and then gives her her powers. He also has plant powers and
he sort of exists in the middle of that spectrum. So he's like connective
tissue. Anyway, it should be interesting, Like I feel like whatever they
do will be interesting, if they do anything, because, as I said
in the article, they had there was a swamp Thing show in twenty nineteen,
and they canceled it two months after it premiered, like almost immediately,
Like I want to say, I was on I found out about this,
like on a panel at Wiscon about superheroes. It was like breaking news.
Swamp Thing is canceled. Yees, I mean, will this happened? I
don't know. It feels like it's a very expensive project to me, because
again, well, no CGI is the cheaper route. I feel like this
would be a really cool project with practical effects, like really good practical effects,
but they will never do that. Yeah, I would say it's a
really expensive project to do. Well, I think it could be done very
cheaply and very badly. Yeah. CW Stargirl is a good example of what
happens when you try to do universal type powers on a budget. Oh bless
their hearts. All this reminds me also that I would love to get a
new live action Poison IVY because the Poison IVY and Harley Quinn is phenomenal,
and of course all this stuff about Harley and Poison's relationship is phenomenal. The
only two on screen versions that I really know about that I have mixed feelings
about one is Uma Thurman, which is just fem fatal, fem fatalvis and
all all that can be said about that. And then there's this it's limited,
but she's having so much fun that I'm like I can't. I'm like,
okay, Uma, I'm with you when you understand that all of those
movies are not Schambert, Nut Schnyder, Schaumberg, Schumacher. Thank you when
you understand that is Schumacher a gay man doing a gay camp version, like
she is perfect for camp, like Grilla Suit, so good. But the
other version that I've seen which started out so good and then took such a
turn was in Gotham. You had this young child named Selina Kyle who was
like a twelve year old who broke into things to survive, and another street
kid she hung out with was this weirdo kid named Ivy with big, fuzzy
red hair and thick glasses who was always playing with her plants. And that
character was phenomenal. And then somewhere in I think season two or season three,
she does some plant things and through the magic of planty plantness, gets
turned into a long, sleek haired, long legged supermodel of about nineteen or
twenty who cares about plants and has plant bikinis. And it just isn't it
a totally different actress? Yeah? Yeah, I mean it was a twelve
year old actress and then a twenty year old actress, and of course her
red hair and what can't they do her reddy care is now long and straight
and sleek and shiny because curly fuzzy hair can't be sexy. There's no racism
marti semitism in that idea, putting that aside, but yeah, it was
so because the character was The actress who played her was so good as this,
Like Selena was this character who had made this like conscious choice that she
had to be okay doing what she had to to survive, even if sometimes
it was a moral and it was played off against Ivy, who's like morals,
what are those not any Like I'm evil and terrible, but just like
she was one of the most a moral but not immoral characters I've ever seen
on screen, and it was so well done. She like a lot of
um uh not in Planta. There's a character like that in Shira whose name
is escaping me now um but yeah, it's not Perfuma. She's the one
with the plants in Trappta. Okay, I think it's in Trapti, but
that sounded right. Yeah, in Trapta exactly that kind of like the science
is so cool. I don't really care who's being hit with the machines that
I'm building that was what IVY was like with plans and just why that's a
good take on IVY. So anyway, well, all this is awesome,
and like I said, I've been reading along in your article about this,
which is a great opportunity for me to have you tell people's wrap up.
Where can people find that article? Where can people find the other stuff you're
doing? Um? So that article is on bookriat dot com, where I
am a contributing editor writing mostly about comics and comic related things. Um I'm
on Twitter as it you know, goes through its death, throws at jess
underscore, Plumber, and as Matthew mentioned, I do have a Superman podcast
called Flights and Tights, although it has not been updated in quite some time,
but it still up, so you can have a listen to that.
Yeah, and we're gonna have a little bit more with Jessica running down some
of her favorite and least favorite Superman on screens in the bonus content for Patreons.
So if you're if you are patrons, stick around for that. If
you're not think about doing so, you can go to patreon dot com,
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