WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.960 Are you ready for an experience like no other? This year is Lenore zan 2 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:10.519 Aka Road. It's Caldon here, voice of Wolverine from X Men the animated 3 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:15.160 series, Bubba, I want you to join me at the Uncanny Experience, 4 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:20.320 the ultimate destination for X Men fans just like you or you will become a 5 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:26.160 mutant student at Xaviers and be able to explore the school campus, shop the 6 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.480 vendor hall, and meet the creators and stars of the X Men universe. 7 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:38.079 There'll be panels, parties, immersive activities all throughout the historic mansion. Whether 8 00:00:38.119 --> 00:00:42.200 you're a fan of the comics, or the movies or the animated series, 9 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:48.320 you'll find something to love. Get your tickets now at the Uncanny Experienced dot 10 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:53.200 com and meet your from fellow mutanes, yours truly included. I am just 11 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:58.000 dying to meet y'all. It's gonna be one Hammam arrived, Boba. Get 12 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:07.560 your tickets now, Sugar at the Canny Experience dot Com. Hi, everybody, 13 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.920 This is Chandler, and this is Chris and I'm the other Chris. 14 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:25.480 And you're listening to x Reads the podcast. We made it to an episode 15 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.000 one hundred and we're here with none other than Chris Claremont, legendary Chris Claremont, 16 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:36.400 Welcome, Welcome, Hello. I'm just gonna say this probably on both 17 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.159 of our behalfs, but like, this is a dream come true just to 18 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:44.879 have you on the show, because we started this as friends several years ago 19 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:49.640 and we're just like recapping X Men issues, most of them of course yours, 20 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:53.920 because you own the body of them and you're our favorite era of X 21 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.719 Men. So when it comes to our episodes, most of them are by 22 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.000 Chris Claremont, and we would joke be like, when it be so funny 23 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:05.920 to have Chris Claremont on the show sometime Now we're here episode one hundred, 24 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:07.439 and we're so excited, so thank you so much for being here. You're 25 00:02:07.479 --> 00:02:13.000 more than welcome. The joke from my end is basically started writing comics to 26 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.439 pay rent between acting gigs. That was my goal. I had a teacher 27 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:20.919 this is back and God help me the dawn of time when she said, 28 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:23.039 you know, the first ten years will be hard, but you have the 29 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:28.479 kind of face and sufficient more than sufficient skill to be a character actor for 30 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:30.520 the rest of your life, which, in a weird sort of way, 31 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:36.479 having seen Night Court eighty year old actors having a career again. It's very 32 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:38.759 funny. It's like realizing the number of people who are only five years older 33 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:44.199 than me running for president even but that's a whole different joke. But as 34 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:46.680 I said, the idea was, it would pay the rent an issue here, 35 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.520 an issue there, a mini series here, a mini series there while 36 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.800 I acted, And then, for reasons which are still utterly mysterious, writing 37 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:58.840 not only paid more often, but began to pay more. And then the 38 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.840 accident came along in that changed everything. We're so glad that you stumbled into 39 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:07.960 the X Men through your acting gigs and we're able to contribute arguably the most 40 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:13.280 iconic stories ever for them and their most iconic traits and everything, and plus 41 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.039 all the characters you created. I mean, most people know you by now, 42 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:21.039 obviously, and I feel like being repetitive to people that know that you're 43 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.639 the creator of Rogue, Jubilee, Gambit, Psylock whatever. I can just 44 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.439 go on and on and on. There's so many characters that are just iconic 45 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.319 to us that you've created and contributed to. So it is a big treat 46 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:38.000 that you decided that comics was your future and not acting The interesting thing that 47 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:44.039 occasionally drives Marvel crazy is that I think al Tolda probably created a few hundred, 48 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.719 if not four hundred to five hundred characters. The thing that drives Marvel 49 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.599 crazy is that there are at least two dozen of them that are alpha characters 50 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:55.520 you can forget about, like you know, Lieutenant so and so and Detective 51 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.759 so what's their name who show up in Iron would get five bucks an episode 52 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.599 for Iron Fist because of the two characters they show up that I created. 53 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:08.680 But you know, if you use any of the X Team from Mike Cannon, 54 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.120 everybody's there. It's hard to have X Men without the people that you 55 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:15.319 brought to the platform. Not to mention star Lord, who you're a co 56 00:04:15.399 --> 00:04:19.639 creator of, which we just had Guardians of the Galaxy Volume three come out, 57 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:24.120 and I didn't know that. I just was so surprised to learn that. 58 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.120 And I saw that you attended the premiere in Hollywood to see your star 59 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:30.199 Lord on the big screen. I see. I look at it and say, 60 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:34.959 I got to meet Vin Diesel. Why my wife is so annoyed because 61 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:39.959 she had a ticket too. It's just we had conflicts and so she stayed 62 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:46.079 home. And look it it was really cool, and I hope everyone loves 63 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:47.839 the movie. Oh yes, I've seen it. I love it. Web 64 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.480 Never they've never used anything that I created in the movies. But that's a 65 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:57.519 whole different discussion altogether. Well, I think we're getting there obviously with the 66 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.079 with the Disney Fox merger. I'm sure we're going going to be seeing your 67 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.959 intellectual property or your creations of Grace the screen once more. But we're here 68 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:14.680 to talk about, yes, But yeah, we're here to talk about Kitty 69 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.360 Pride. Kitty Pride being my favorite character creation of yours, and she's had 70 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.639 a big evolution. So this episode is going to be off format. Normally, 71 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:27.399 Chris and I will recap a single issue of comics within the X Men 72 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.600 universe with our guests, but it's too wasteful to have you and just do 73 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.600 one issue. It's just like, no, we have to at least talk 74 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:38.800 about something much broader. So those of us that are those of you that 75 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.639 are listeners that are tuning in, we're not doing our normal format. We're 76 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.720 just talking with the Chris Claremont and we're just condensing it to Kitty Pride, 77 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.759 because otherwise we would be here for hours and hours and hours. There's a 78 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.160 million things that I want to ask, and I feel like, oh my 79 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.560 god, I really want to talk about you know, the Hellfire Club and 80 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.360 Day's a Future past and all these other things. But you know what, 81 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:04.079 Kitty Pride and we'll worriad this arc is really special, and Kitty Pride, 82 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:09.800 of course being just a true touchdowne for so many people. And I know 83 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:14.040 she's an entry level character for a lot of people. She is relatable to 84 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.959 a lot of people. She is the childhood crush of a lot of people. 85 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:21.319 You know, she's just completely delightful. And as Chris and I are 86 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:25.800 more you know, we're born in the eighties, we were introduced to the 87 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.120 nineties team, so she wasn't a part of that. You know, she 88 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.560 was often Excalibur. So she's a late addition to my awareness as far as 89 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:36.399 I didn't have that influence of her when I was younger, but then her 90 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:40.839 coming into my awareness at a later date, I just completely fell in love 91 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:47.800 with her. And I just think she is hilarious and resourceful and you know, 92 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:51.199 and she is she's you obviously, you are the creator and you're the 93 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.839 writer of most of her stories in that era and it's just like she's a 94 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.399 joy like Chris and I, Christopher and I. You know, on our 95 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.480 show, we love the Katy Pride centric ones. We love the fairy tale 96 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:06.000 episode or the issue. We love the one where she's in the mansion being 97 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:10.240 chased by the demon and stuff like that. Like the centric ones where it's 98 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:13.600 all about her. I mean we love them. Oh yeah, Professor Xavier 99 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:18.800 is a jerk. And find me a thirteen year old middle schooler who doesn't 100 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:25.480 feel that way about the principle completely, especially if he steps on her toes. 101 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.160 Well, Katy Pride has been drawn by so many artists over the years. 102 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.639 You know, We've got John Burne, Dave Cockrum, Paul Smith, 103 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.759 you name it. Is there iteration of Kitty Pride that you prefer the most? 104 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.800 Or is there an outfit that you prefer the most? No, it's 105 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:46.079 all an evolution. I think it's very interesting because again John establisher, John 106 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:54.600 Byrne establisher and then disagree fundamentally with all the decisions I may after that regarding 107 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.959 her. But for me, the key is that she's a smart, a 108 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.759 girl from Chicago. That basically sums her up. You know, don't mess 109 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.800 with her She has the disadvantage of being one of those smart Alec kids who 110 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:13.480 always knows better than everyone around her, but is also fundamentally shy and because 111 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.519 of her faith, always feels like an outcast, which is why she and 112 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.920 Logan end bonding, but by the same extension, she and Magneto end up 113 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.800 bounding. You know, I think one of the more primal moments I guess 114 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:31.160 that I felt was good to write was when she and he go to the 115 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:35.279 opening of the Holocaust Museum in DC, and as people did there, you 116 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.240 go up at onto the dais and say the names of people you're trying to 117 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.279 find some contact with, and Magneto, by everyone's surprise, meets friends who 118 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.440 are very surprised at how well he's dealt with the years. But the subtext 119 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.879 of Kitties what she says is that she doesn't know anything about her relatives in 120 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.120 Poland except that there's a ninety nine percent chance that they no longer exist. 121 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:03.240 But there's all so the New Mutants story that got me my only fan letter 122 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:09.559 from Paul levits we were only fooling, which is where a young kid comes 123 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:13.960 to Salem Center, gets involved with the Mutants and is terrified of being outed 124 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.399 because he's a mutant, and he knows that if he gets outed, awful 125 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.279 things will happen. Well, someone does threatened out him. We know what 126 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.519 you are. We're going to tell everyone, and he takes his life out 127 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.879 of fear. The last two pages is Kitty getting up there at his memorial 128 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:37.200 and giving a speech where she says the most offensive words in the lexicon, 129 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:43.240 one of which we were allowed to use then but is no longer considered appropriate 130 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.600 the same word I used in God Loves Man kills. And what's running through 131 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.759 her head as she's giving this speech is that by doing so, she's also 132 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.960 revealing herself to herself as a coward, because if she had courage, she 133 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.679 would say, I'm Kitty Pride, I'm a mutant, screw you all. 134 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.480 Her rationalization for not doing it, her Russian al for not doing it, 135 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.960 is that she's perfectly willing to out herself, but she can't out the rest 136 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:11.720 of the new mutants. It's not her right prerogative for me. That's that 137 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:16.559 was is The firm part of writing and writing these characters is that they all 138 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:22.679 come to unexpected choices, and you can understand why they make these choices they 139 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.440 make the choices they make. But as with everybody in quote unquote reality, 140 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:31.480 you have a should I could? I Is this right? And sometimes the 141 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:37.679 answer is maybe not. Then you do it anyway because and it's always because 142 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.000 that from our writer and ideally a reader you relate to, you bring up 143 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:46.080 a key point that I'm sure you've heard so many times as the allegory of 144 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:50.200 x Men and Mutantdom with people of color, queer community, all the people 145 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:56.720 that feel underrepresented, because we find solace in the x Men in Mutantdom and 146 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:01.120 the stories that are being told there. Obviously, I feel like I'm preaching 147 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:03.200 to the choir because everybody kind of feels this way because we are an x 148 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:07.360 Men fan podcast. But to those that are not familiar with x Men or 149 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:09.600 x Men comics specifically, I feel like it's a learning curve for them. 150 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:13.440 They have to kind of come to understand because I have definitely interacted with people 151 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.919 on the Internet who don't quite understand that allegory at all and they think something 152 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.360 completely different. It's been an amazing experience, of course, to be a 153 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:24.639 fan and go through this and fine community through these books. When I wrote 154 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.120 God Loves Man kills. It was a very specific book at a very specific 155 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:33.320 time, about a very specific thing. I had no imagination that forty odd 156 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.440 years later the conflict would be far more pertinent, and that Dryker would actually 157 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:46.320 be gaining in popularity. Because the feeling is he's speaking for the downtrodden, 158 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:52.720 normal folks against all these outliers that are trying to stand on everybody's toes, 159 00:11:52.879 --> 00:12:01.919 and yet every day there is evidence of anti minority sentiments, laws, positions. 160 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.759 It's very disconcerting, but from that perspective, from my perspective, it 161 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:11.399 makes It seems to me anyway, it makes the my era of X Men 162 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:16.600 all the more relevant, because the whole essence of that was, we're trying 163 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:22.799 to find a way, as Igor Corday did in the Valley Salada stories of 164 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:28.159 Extreme this is a place where we used to live happily together with non mutants, 165 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.879 and then suddenly it all went to hell, creating a circumstance where you 166 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:37.879 could perhaps understand why they all want to run away to their island distrail and 167 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.000 live happily ever after. To me, my challenge to a decision like that 168 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:46.240 would be as a reader and as a certainly as a creator, I think 169 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.519 it would have been a more balanced equation if some of them had said, 170 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.799 no, we're going to stay here because this is our home. I mean, 171 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.519 that's why kitties from Chicago. She's both a smartass and a fighter. 172 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.720 People in Chicago don't step back from struggles. It's all tied in with her 173 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:07.120 being from Chicago, going to the University of Chicago, eventually in again in 174 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:11.600 my timeline, becoming a counsel, becoming the mayor, becoming the governor, 175 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:18.200 becoming the president. She is the exemplar of the positive hopes of the X 176 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.600 Men, And of course the punchline is days a future passed where in the 177 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.960 last year of her second term the sentinels show up and we all go back 178 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.360 to basics. That's comics. It is melodrama in the very best sense of 179 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.919 the word. That it's a primal struggle with the heroes fully committed to victory 180 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.480 because they have no other alternative. It's win or die, and the adversaries 181 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.639 being pun Dockers. Kitty was introduced in Unkinny X Men one twenty nine alongside 182 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:52.120 the White Queen, Emma Frost, and they've had a relationship, so to 183 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.120 speak, for decades. Now for us for how long in comic book time. 184 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.240 Who knows. I just want to talk about that I'm as a big 185 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.919 character for a lot of people. Chris here loves Emma Frost. Yes, 186 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:09.240 Emma Frost my all time favorite X Men. She is amazing. The interesting 187 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.000 thing about Emma is that the first time she encounters the X Team and Charlie 188 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.200 is the only time in her life in comics she has ever worn anything other 189 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:24.399 than white, which is maybe why they didn't recognize her. Or maybe everybody 190 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:31.159 was staring at Jean, who's suddenly wearing dark colors and an utterly non neutral 191 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:35.720 presentation. You know, suddenly she's gone from being the nice girl to being 192 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.679 something. So everyone's looking at Jeane, no one's looking at Emma. And 193 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.360 let's face it, Emma's alone with Kitty for however long she was there before 194 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.320 Charlie got there, and the first time we see Kitty, she's got this 195 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.639 real headache. And maybe it has nothing to do with the manifestation of her 196 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:56.440 power. You put her with her potential, in the same room as a 197 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:03.440 telepath who is easily arrival for Charlie. The only person who ever really got 198 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.080 a good hit at her was Gene, and let's face it, the Phoenix 199 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:13.799 again in my conception, bombs with Gene, and that puts Gane like one 200 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:18.480 very small step below the Almighty. That's a much longer discussion as a podcast 201 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:26.120 all by itself, the point being that who knows what subconscious, masked discussions 202 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.759 she and Kitty had before Charlie got there. Well, and they've had a 203 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:33.200 very tried relationship over time because in New Mutants, of course, they interacted 204 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.759 a lot with the Massachusetts Academy, in the Hellian and whatnot. And I've 205 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:43.759 always admired how now in current days they've become more close friends because they've had 206 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.919 such a relationship even though they were rivals or enemies or she was scared of 207 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.919 That's true, but again it all depends. It actually all depends on who's 208 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.960 writing the current stuff can define things by that one aspect of Kitty's life, 209 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.840 where she's now channeling the pirate. On the other hand, the question I 210 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.200 always asked was, so why is she drinking? Is she at the same 211 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.080 time absorbing an essence of logan? One never knows the other side of the 212 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:14.960 coin, of course, is that within the context of my timelines for the 213 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.360 X men, Logan has known all about her from the moment they met in 214 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:25.799 nineteen thirty five, so assuming, especially given the current timeline. When Logan 215 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.519 in those days, Logan had natural clause, not adamantia, so perhaps that 216 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:37.000 held true when he was in Vietnam fighting alongside Charlie and fighting alongside Carmen Pride, 217 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.559 who flew the helo that they use when they went out and rescue missions. 218 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.519 So maybe he's there to keep an eye on Carmen, to make sure 219 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.559 Carmen survives, to make sure Kitty survives. I mean, they're all sorts 220 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.840 of wheel For me, as a writer who started out writing science fiction, 221 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.559 there's all sorts of games to play. Let's jump into the Kitty Pride Wolverine 222 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.720 miniseries because it is transformative for her for everybody that's reading, it's fantastic. 223 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:07.559 And what I love is that you've taken her from a dancer, a genius, 224 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:11.359 a superhero, and now she's a deadly ninja assassin. So what can't 225 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.119 Katie Pride do? I think that's the limited approach. She's gone from being 226 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.759 a superhero, a kid who helped save the world, a kid who helped 227 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.359 save the omniverse, in the Paul Smith issues, and yet here she is 228 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:27.960 something's happening with her father, So she does the impetuous, dumbass kid thing, 229 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.880 unaware that the X Men have been bounced off to Secret Wars except for 230 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.319 Logan, and goes to see how she can help. But the one thing 231 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:40.039 that is primal after all these positive elements in her life, what this reveals 232 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.480 is how easily she can become a victim. And then what do you do? 233 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:47.079 I mean, bearing in mind she's only thirteen, The stuff she goes 234 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:52.359 through, the things she confronts, I mean, Ogan takes her apart top 235 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.559 to bottom, inside and out, and rebuilds her in his image. And 236 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:02.079 even though she she and Logan win the arc, as she discovers in the 237 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:07.400 latest Extreme X Men arc I just that just finished last month, it's not 238 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.240 getting free is not as easy as she thinks. Doesn't mean she can't fight 239 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.880 back, doesn't mean in fighting back she won't win, But there are always 240 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:22.519 consequences. And the thing with the miniseries that she realizes at the end is 241 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:29.480 not that she fought Ogan. It's that she faced a series of choices in 242 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.000 those last issues, And this goes back to what she and Logan are running 243 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.880 through the snow brought about by the Ultimate Winter, but they're running barefoot because 244 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.000 this is her And each time she sort of triumphs, Logan tears her down 245 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:47.559 and points out, no, Ogan triumphed in you. This is about you, 246 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.920 not about him. And it finally at the end comes down to the 247 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.960 moment where she has the chance to kill him Ogan, I mean, And 248 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:00.920 only after she turns her back and says no, does she relies that Logan 249 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:04.319 was right there ready to kill her if she made the wrong choice. And 250 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:10.640 even after that, when Ogan comes to takes a last shot at Logan, 251 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.839 So that was dumb? Would be Ogan? Logan? Everybody's got the same 252 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.279 phonomic name. She's in the middle as he tries to stab Logan and Logan 253 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:26.279 kills him. The consequences the things she endures in that art are very primal 254 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.559 and very cruel, which is sort of like why the ten page story that 255 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.720 Salvi and I did, which is what happens on the drive back to Tokyo, 256 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:40.480 where you learn some primal things about Logan's is the most primal and important 257 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:47.400 thing you learn is he makes really good ramen and teaches her. It is 258 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.240 very much a mentor pupil relationship. But the things he's trying to teach her 259 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.599 have nothing to do with fighting. They have to do with growing up and 260 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.359 into a woman who can again. Who was always meant my vision of the 261 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:06.440 X Men to be the core of the next generation. That's why my original 262 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.440 concept for Gambit joining the team was a focused, purposed event, and it 263 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:18.640 was to seduce and corrupt and destroy the next leader of that team, which 264 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.880 was Kitty. I mean, the whole point with me was that Remy and 265 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.480 Kitty were the core relationship. Rogue had nothing to do with it. But 266 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:34.559 that was so twentieth century ages ago, you know, And of course people 267 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.880 listening probably couldn't even imagine Gambit and Rogue not together. But I never really 268 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:47.440 latched onto Gambit as a character. Probably maybe maybe because his original attentions never 269 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:52.599 were fulfilled that he became something different over time. Remy's a thief. Gambit's 270 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.960 a thief, and what he loves feeling most our hearts and he's not gonna 271 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.279 do anything mean with him. But to see him is to love him. 272 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.519 It's literally the core idea for me was he walks into a Roman, everybody 273 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.880 looks at him and all the ladies are going, oh my god, and 274 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.119 probably a third or more of the men are saying oh my god. Two 275 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.119 and half of them are blushing because it never dreamed they had this impulse. 276 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:25.039 It's just that it's remy. I actually love Gambit. I think he provides 277 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.880 a lot of comedic lines. He is a fun character design. The thing 278 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.440 I like with characters when I put them on stage, they conceive of them, 279 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.000 design them put them on the stage, is that they function on more 280 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.279 than one level. Yes, Kitty has a moment where she fights a demon 281 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.000 in the X Men, smashed as a good chunk of the mansion, and 282 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.599 at the end she gets her wish. Her parents show up for Hanakkah, 283 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.400 and you know that the next morning she and Charles will have words over what 284 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.200 the heck has happened to the mansion in the meantime, and she has a 285 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.720 perfectly rational excuse, wasn't my fault. I didn't do this. I was 286 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:03.279 just trying to keep myself from being roasted alive by the demon. It's watching 287 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.119 her grow up, I mean. The thing that made my head explode back 288 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:14.319 in the day was that another writer who was writing Excalibur wanted her to have 289 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:17.559 a relationship. And this is a story I've told more times than anyone cares 290 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:22.200 to remember. He wanted her to have a physical relationship with Pete Wisdom until 291 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.400 it was pointed out that Kitty is fifteen years old, which even in the 292 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.599 United Kingdom is illegal, So then no problem she was twenty one, except, 293 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:36.240 as I keep pointing out, this isn't the DC universe, this is 294 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:41.079 the Marvel universe, and you can't have her jump six years to be legal 295 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.079 and not have an impact on Franklin and everybody else. They've all jumped six 296 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.119 years or should jump six years. But see that's me coming out of stands 297 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.880 dictum, which is you write a book for as long as you're on it, 298 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.240 but when you're done, you put the characters back on the wall the 299 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.880 way you found them, so the next writer will have a free shot at 300 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.079 whatever he or she wants to do with him. My way around that was 301 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.279 not aiming on not ever getting to the point where I had to put them 302 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.559 back on the shelf. You know, I figured I'd stick around for twenty 303 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.079 years, twenty five, oh what the hell? Thirty the very least. 304 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:22.799 If someone wants to read a structured continuity. I've got sixteen big volumes worth 305 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:26.319 of material on your shelf. It's not where you come in read three years 306 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.480 worth. And then the next person invalidates it all. I figure Stan and 307 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.240 Jack stayed on the f for a one hundred issues. What the hell? 308 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:38.160 Kitty Pride, of course, becomes shadow Cat through this. Yes, so 309 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:42.200 we finally a halfway's decent name. Yes, exactly, it's a no more 310 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.920 aerial, no more sprite. No, you know, we have shadow Cat, 311 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:52.000 which to me is her favorite code name and my favorite costume, probably 312 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.279 the blue kind of outfit and the mask and everything. Again, Kitty evolves 313 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.119 there in mind. This is the young lady who's skated into Charles command center 314 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.279 of the Danger Room in the most awe inspiring Dave Cock from Tasteless thirteen year 315 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:12.160 old What do you think? And her period in Excalibur, not the least 316 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.640 being that when Alan and I did the Barsoom two parter. The essence of 317 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.359 it is Rachel has no problem walking around and next to nothing. She's a 318 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.599 telepath. It's the same with Emma. My theory with Emma is she's never 319 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:30.079 worn corsets. It's just that everybody thinks she wears corsets. Then the flip 320 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:36.359 side of that coin is, as Aurora pointed out, Emma sitting there saying, 321 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.920 hey, I'm Diamond, now you can't hurt me, and and Aroa's 322 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.279 going, really do you really think that? I mean, I have this 323 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.440 little twig here, I can make this twig hit you at mock speeds. 324 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.319 How many twigs do you need before I find the flaw on the diamond? 325 00:24:53.519 --> 00:25:00.200 Oops? And Emma's realizing, ah, because she's spent her whole professional life 326 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:02.960 on the presumption that Storm is not going to kill you, because that's not 327 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:08.079 storm, except that is storm. She very much storm. Well, it's 328 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:15.720 she will do no, she will mourn the fact that she had to take 329 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.799 alife. It will have an impact on her. But again, going back 330 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.279 to the Barsoom story with Kitty, you know, you have this the evil 331 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.839 lady about to have all the X Men eaten by the giant whatever it is 332 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.599 in her basement, and she's about to kill an innocent person, and Kitty 333 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:36.480 just nails her and kills her, stabs her in the back. Because this 334 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:42.839 is post ogun and there is a part of Kitty that is in every sense 335 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:48.640 of the word, a samurai, as is Logan. She will do what 336 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:53.440 must be done, which is why, in a weird sort of way, 337 00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:59.440 what I was doing X Men Forever. She and Logan merge for Swiss second 338 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.039 phoenix m for a split second, and they come apart. But when she 339 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.160 comes apart, she comes away with a claw and a fraction of his attitude, 340 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:12.480 And as the series progresses, she gets more and more fierce. Part 341 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.920 of that ferocity is her anger at you know, you had to leave a 342 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.720 couple of souvenirs. What part of me is me? What part of me 343 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.440 is now you? But again going back to true friends. In a way, 344 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.480 she was always destined to be, at least in my iteration, as 345 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.920 much a part of him as a part of her parents. The difference being 346 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:37.000 that when she was working at Bells of Hell and the Giant Sentinel fried all 347 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.680 of Genosha, she found that fractional piece of video where her father was one 348 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.920 of the victims. She saw her father die. Logan will not die. 349 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.920 They will be again. In my iteration of it, she was working late 350 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.119 one night at the Bells. There was a figure masked by shadows, who 351 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.359 kept making her an offer that he didn't want her to refuse, and finally 352 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.400 just she was so tired, and so, oh hell, all right, 353 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:06.240 fine, this is a fraternity event, right, I'll become the guardian of 354 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.519 forever. Satisfied now? And then Highest Authority nodded and said, yep, 355 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.480 you're it. And Kitty realized that when Highest Authorities makes you an offer, 356 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.920 you normally can't refuse. You're stuck with it. So she and Rachel are 357 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.880 the guardians of Forever. So my way of thinking about it is the cannon 358 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.599 we're reading now is her fourth time around the box, you get the end 359 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.000 of creation. Everything's died. Logan's been sitting on a rock for billion years 360 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.440 waiting for the last star to die. And Kitty comes out every so often 361 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.359 because she lives in a tests erect with her family, because even after three 362 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:42.359 complete circles of creation, a tests erect has a diameter of a quarter billion 363 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.240 miles. It'll take a lot of people. They have dinner, they talk, 364 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.440 she goes back, and finally the stars about to go out, a 365 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.960 dot of light appears next to it absorbs the light that comes gane again. 366 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.480 The phoenix comes down and she and Logan pick up where they left off. 367 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:03.599 The lights go out, and then next creation is reborn. See, it's 368 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.799 all part of a pattern. That's why in the Bilson Kevis story that he 369 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:12.240 and I did a year ago, Hella makes the same kind of offer to 370 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:17.039 to Danny Moonstar. Because Danny is a valkyrie. She is the blend of 371 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:22.720 two realities mutants and as guardian. But the fact is death has many faces, 372 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:25.279 and one of them is dark Phoenix. She isn't there for as a 373 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.880 metaphor. She's there as the real thing. But my vision of the reality 374 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:33.240 is that the Shadow King is not a mutant. Shadow King is the enemy 375 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.440 of life. His goal is, like Thanos, to just expunge everything from 376 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:45.559 creation except him. He's happy with that. And Hella's point is, what's 377 00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.880 the point of death if there is no life? So Danny's job is to 378 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.240 protect life. She's there basically to fight the Shadow King in the name of 379 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.960 death, because if there is no life, there can be no death. 380 00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:59.920 Death is a primal force as his life. They all have their place at 381 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.319 the essence of creation. You've got Rachel Old, You've got Kitty, and 382 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.119 you've got Danny. You can only do Danny if she's drawn by Bill. 383 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.960 We've had Bill sen Kevitch on this show actually for our fiftieth episode, so 384 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.960 it just seems so kiss meant that you're our hundredth bill. I'm a more 385 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.079 mature person, I guess, so I've got ten years on him, so 386 00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:25.000 there. Yeah, he came in and talked to us about New Mutants and 387 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.079 his joys of being a part of that era of the comic books and everything, 388 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.559 and yeah, he does incredible work. He's one of my favorite artists. 389 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.079 You know what. We actually talk about you a lot, like with 390 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.839 other people, like we've got Annisentio. I'm envious she got to do the 391 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:44.799 mini series. She gets to do Wheezy. They just announced she's doing a 392 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.319 mini series set on in the Krokoa reality. I am so envious because I 393 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:53.440 would like to do something in the current iteration, but I'm apparently locked into 394 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:57.640 my own little world. I would be very curious about your take on current 395 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:03.319 Cracko and era storylines and everything. I just kind of see what you would 396 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:04.720 contribute, and you don't have to pitch us, but you know, because 397 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:08.519 I know writers like to keep their stories to themselves so that nobody can take 398 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.559 them. But I would It's a big island about which we know next to 399 00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:18.200 nothing. I mean, there are so many characters, there's so many realities 400 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.480 there. How, there's lots of reasons to play. Like anything else, 401 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:26.359 it is a tapestry waiting for little bits and pieces to be added to it. 402 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.759 That's comics at its essence. That's the Marvel Universe at its essence. 403 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:36.519 Here's Peter Parker, Here's Aunt May, Here's Gwen Stacey. Have fun. 404 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.359 Oh wait, here's Mary Jane Watson. Okay, you plant the seeds and 405 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.039 let the people who come after play with it. With me. It's like 406 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:51.119 Grant Morrison's run on New X Men. I disagree with most of the mistakes 407 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.799 he made, and yet I read every issue because it was really really good. 408 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.599 Darn it it was. And the most frustrating thing for a writer is 409 00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.359 suddenly reading a story and say, damn it, I should have thought of 410 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:10.160 that. That's the nature of work. We are all challenged by the people 411 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:15.960 around us. And you know, when Frank was doing Daredevil and I was 412 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.200 doing X Not, It's like one month Frank would be number one, I'd 413 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:21.759 be number two. Then I'd be number one and he'd be number two. 414 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.599 It's competition in the best sense of the word. Not because one feels arrogant, 415 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:32.160 although that probably is a chunk of it for some people like me, 416 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.759 is having fun and seeing what kind of reaction you can get from the audience. 417 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:44.200 I mean, my point with X Men one was, and it sounds 418 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:45.599 silly to phrase it like this, but what the heck? Okay, the 419 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:51.359 first issue sold eight million copies, will be the challenge will be to get 420 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.799 to issue twelve and still keep the book in seven figures, not because of 421 00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.799 gimmicks, but because I was trying to create, was creating stories and characters 422 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:07.160 that the readers bonded it. The most awesome moment of my career is discovering 423 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:12.039 that on the third Thursday of every month, when the X Men came out, 424 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:17.079 people would actually queue up outside the comic bookstore a half hour before it 425 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:22.920 opened to get the issue. I mean, how cool is that. I 426 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:27.319 saw the first release of Star Wars the first show in New York. I 427 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.279 got there an hour early. Theater was empty, It's kind of filled up 428 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:35.720 by the time the show the film started, But when I came out two 429 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.480 and a half hours later, the line was one all the way around a 430 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.599 New York City block, and by the end of the day it was three 431 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:49.640 lines deep and it didn't go away for a month. That's extraordinary. That 432 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.279 is the primal challenge to me is to do work that is so enticing, 433 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:59.559 so irresistible, that everybody tells their friends, and everybody comes in and buys 434 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:05.839 it, and you keep building on that foundation. The frustration, of course 435 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.799 with the twenty first centuries that the market has changed so much. Everyone loves 436 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:13.000 to go to convention and not so many seemed to love buying comic books. 437 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:17.359 And my desire, my goal, would be to try and get more people 438 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:22.160 in the door to buy those comic books by telling stories that they would find 439 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.839 irresistible. Far easier said than done. The challenge of writing a challenge, 440 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:31.160 especially of writing comics, because it provides a visual template as well as a 441 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:36.720 literal template if one reads a book, and this has always been the interesting 442 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:42.160 dichotomy. When we did the Heroes the Memorial from nine to eleven, writer 443 00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:45.839 was supposed to contribute, the artists supposed to contribute, and Salvador la Rocca 444 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:52.599 did the most magnificent of pages. I was signing it for someone and they 445 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:55.759 said, where's your contribution? You know, because many of the other pages 446 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:01.240 you have writers writing their words. You had artists drawing their visions, and 447 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.200 I said, it's right in front of you. What do you mean, 448 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:08.519 what did you write about twenty six hundred words give or take? What do 449 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.840 you mean? It's right in front of you. All I did was tell 450 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.360 Salva this is the image, and he brought it to life. I didn't 451 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:21.679 need to write any more than that and write anything to add to it, 452 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:27.079 because it wouldn't It would have detracted from the power of the visual. The 453 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:37.760 paradox of comic books is the writer's job is to convey the visual to the 454 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.920 artist. The artist's job is to then bring it to life. In some 455 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:49.320 issues like Jokasada did the I challenge you all to do as comic without words, 456 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.880 and of course, being me, I figured, oh, this is 457 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.679 personal, isn't it. You know, because I have a I am notorious 458 00:34:54.920 --> 00:35:01.920 for writing a lot of words. So I did as story of Remy saving 459 00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:07.800 people. It's not hard. You just have to think in terms of a 460 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.800 storyboard and have an artist like Salba who can bring it to life with remarkable 461 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:20.360 efficiency. But that's also why if the original Wolverine mini series plot I sent 462 00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:24.599 Frank was Frank Miller was twenty pages for a twenty page story. The last 463 00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.519 plot for the fourth issue. He and I talked on the phone for twenty 464 00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:32.039 minutes and I wrote a third of a page of notes typed him up to 465 00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.559 set him off. All of the stuff in the first issue was setting description, 466 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:43.039 character description, emotional content, throwaway bits of dialogue. If I had 467 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:47.039 an inspiration, it was everything, not just from him, but for me, 468 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.079 so I knew what was going on. By the time we got to 469 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.639 the fourth issue, I knew everything. He knew everything that was relevant. 470 00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:00.320 All we needed to do was structure out the visuals by the same token. 471 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:05.199 Frank knows my rep for writing, so he left me all this blank space. 472 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.280 The way he arranged the panels, there were empty blocks of background, 473 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:13.400 or not even background, just the panel was floating against a long white space. 474 00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:15.639 My response was, there's no way I'm going to cover that up. 475 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:22.119 It's beautiful. So I just leaned down the text the dialogue to the Barras 476 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.320 essentials. Again, it's a synergy. You find a way to balance A 477 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:30.239 and B and have fun. Hope that you do it in a way that 478 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:36.440 the reader responds. That worked through the Kitty Wolverine story. There are certain 479 00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:42.760 moments where description or thought was required. There are certain places, like the 480 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:46.719 conditioning moment where Ogan rebrands Kitty to his side of the equation, where al 481 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:52.960 Milgram could brought it to life without the need for excessive copy. Everything is 482 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:57.960 unique. Unto that moment, and unto that artist, and unto that story, 483 00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.519 you find the balance. For me, it's what happens between the panels. 484 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:06.519 In a comic, you'll see a shot of someone walking up through the 485 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.639 door, and then you'll see them what's happening inside. But the space between 486 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:16.440 the two panels is where the audience's imagination comes into it. Ryan Reynolds walks 487 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:20.360 up to the door or the mansion, but there was only budget to open 488 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:22.679 the door and see Colossus on the other side. But what was going around 489 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:25.119 the corner, Well you get a glimpse of it, but that's it. 490 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.719 You find a way to play. You find a way to put the reader 491 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:34.199 on the edge of their seat, either in a comic book or a novel 492 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.880 or a movie, and gather them up and chase them down the block, 493 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:42.280 or have them chase after you down the block and see where it leads, 494 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.079 or see where you can lead them. The challenge is always not so much 495 00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:50.280 the school, but what happens in the bits that you don't see. What 496 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.719 do they do on their off time? Okay, they play baseball, but 497 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:57.559 then pours. Sam's up there trying to do a finish a term paper and 498 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:02.880 his computer goes. Each moment, each place is a way of bonding. 499 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:08.719 What's on the table that you're reading to the imagination and the heart of the 500 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.519 person reading it. It's not that it's Xavier's school, it's what about this 501 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:20.199 school reminds me of my school. It's like why in the New I always 502 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.599 wanted to try and do more stories set around a mixer in the high schools 503 00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:29.440 where middle schools in Salem Center get together and they have, as I said, 504 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:32.760 a mixer. It's the team getting involved on the beach, Chitty Panema, 505 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.559 going to Asgarden finding out that not everybody wants to go home. I 506 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.159 had a pitch through to Marvel three years ago where I established a team of 507 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.519 X men who are going to defend YadA, YadA, YadA blah blah blah. 508 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:49.440 The leader was the root Queen Rue. Queen's point was what are you 509 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.199 looking at me like this? For yes, I come down from heaven what 510 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:57.519 do you think that we're all evil? No, I'm the defender of my 511 00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:00.599 people. I clim as much a hero to them as you are to yours. 512 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.000 It's just we happen to eat yours. Whales are just as sentient and 513 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:10.639 just as advanced as you are. You just kill them for their tusks. 514 00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.320 Who makes you the good guys? It's perception. The thing about the school 515 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:22.599 for me is that it shouldn't be. It's not like living on an island 516 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.679 in the middle of the ocean. The school is in a community. The 517 00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:31.360 whole point of the X Men is finding a way for them to be part 518 00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:36.280 of that community, regardless of the fact that they're being chased through the danger 519 00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:40.199 room by giant monsters, despite the fact that Charlie is actually a brute queen 520 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:46.440 in disguise, despite the fact that they find themselves against adversaries who could very 521 00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:51.480 easily kill them. It's fine trying to find the things that bind us to 522 00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.760 the reader. It's like, oh my gosh, Bruce and Clark's mom is 523 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:06.039 named Martha. Wow, that's scary. But okay, it's probably careless in 524 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.199 terms of editing or writing. But okay, you know, I'm quietly and 525 00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:13.679 move on. You know, it's it makes for a little giggle for me. 526 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:19.519 Comic books. A point of comics and celebrating comics and being at a 527 00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.800 convention about comics is that at its bedrock, comics should be fun, and 528 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.000 if they're not fun, why would anyone want to read them? It's a 529 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:31.760 seduction of the innocent. Yes, Wortham have that one right. I want 530 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:37.000 to button up this Kitty Pride episode and thank you so much for being a 531 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.760 part of it. I think it was really great to hear your perspective and 532 00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:47.280 insight, especially in your mind of continuation of character, because I just personally 533 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:52.840 find that fascinating. I'm really appreciative of what you've given to us through Katy 534 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.519 Pride in her evolution. You know, she still continues to be one of 535 00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.960 my favorites. Of course, again, in terms of Kitty, I've never 536 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:06.440 I mean I had her take a puff of Logan cigar and she calls out 537 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.480 her lungs. The thing I forgot was secondhand smoke. So it's like, 538 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:15.000 just because he's immune a smoke is probably doing wonders for everybody's lungs around him. 539 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:19.519 But the key thing for me is the implication that she's working at Dells 540 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:23.239 of Hell even though she's underage. Kind of we just I just decided I 541 00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:31.119 would blur that metaphor. But why, Well, here's a bar that within 542 00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:35.920 a couple of blocks, You've got a central receiving hospital, a cop house, 543 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:40.239 a firehouse, oh and the University of Chicago. And Kitty is behind 544 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:45.360 the bar. What does she do behind the bar? Aside from serving really 545 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:54.360 good drinks? She listens. She really likes listening and occasionally responding because people 546 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:58.599 come in here, they've had a hard shift thing it's not been the best 547 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:05.400 day, or they've had a great day they want to talk about and because 548 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:12.840 for her it's a way of re establishing the bonds she had in Salem Center. 549 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.719 Except these people go out and risk their lives on a totally different level 550 00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:22.719 than the X Men did. The X Men do the uber save the world. 551 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.039 They do the little save the world. And I think one of the 552 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:32.239 things I would love to play with more is the implication from the Extreme mini 553 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:37.639 series that I just did. Then Chicago is the only city in the United 554 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:43.480 States that actively employs mutants. You know, there's a Coastguard mutant whose specialty 555 00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:47.559 is airca rescue because she's a shape shifter. There's a fire department mutant who 556 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:52.960 absorbs flame. There's a cop who goes out and helps solve crimes. For 557 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:58.760 me, the idea was to create a reality where the positives of mutants on 558 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:04.639 earth. It's not that these are monsters with superpowers who will supplant us. 559 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.480 It's like somebody's a Mozart. Someone else flies faster than a speeding bullet. 560 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:14.119 It is for the benefit of us all. Why don't try we try playing 561 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:23.199 with that aspect of reality instead of being afraid? Why not use Charlie's Institute 562 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:32.920 as a benchmark of bringing everyone a couple of steps closer together, rather than 563 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:39.159 its walls driving people apart. Because it all comes down to fear. We're 564 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:44.199 afraid of the unknown. We're afraid of things that are different. We're afraid 565 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:47.679 that our kids might look at a box and say, oh wait, I 566 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.039 can be one of twenty three different genders. I'll choose this one from column 567 00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:59.679 why Why why not? Yes, it is a metaphor, and sometimes metaphors 568 00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:07.679 are necessary, and hopefully metaphors have a positive outcome. The key here is 569 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:15.480 why should we be afraid? Why should we think the representatives of these metaphors, 570 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:22.679 the embodiments of these metaphors are evil. Why not just nod your head 571 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:28.119 and look at these people and judge them for who they are and what they 572 00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:32.320 do, and figure if one could look at this from a theological standpoint and 573 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:37.280 say, if we are the creation of an almighty some of us will end 574 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:45.679 up looking like Kurt. The choice that he made was Okay, I looked 575 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:51.920 like this wasn't my idea? Well maybe it was. But if I am 576 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:57.119 created to look like this, then maybe my job is to be the best 577 00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:00.679 person who looks like this that is humanly possible. I have some thought on 578 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:05.920 the side. None of this needs to be something to be afraid of. 579 00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:13.960 None of this needs to be something to hate or even dislike. We should 580 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:19.440 maybe try to embrace the side of us that wants to trust, that wants 581 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:27.400 to live happily ever after. And by implication, if I live happily ever 582 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.400 after, you can do it too, or maybe even do it better. 583 00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:39.639 Bravo. That shouldn't be so hard, And for me, that's what comics 584 00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:45.719 are here to do. Help walk down that path, see where it leads, 585 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:52.519 and maybe reach out a hand to help someone else as well, and 586 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.760 if you're really lucky, you reach out of hand, they'll reach back. 587 00:45:54.760 --> 00:46:05.639 And you're cute. You two well beautiful romantic. What can I say anti 588 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:12.719 English as that may seem, you know, but that's what to me is 589 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.039 what the X Men, among other things I write, but the x mellment 590 00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:24.280 is all about should be all about not hiding but embodying hope, embodying the 591 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:30.760 positives, embodying the If I have this talent, if I have this ability, 592 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:38.280 I will use it to help other people, because you know, it's 593 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:43.400 easy to be an a hole. Let's try for something better. It's been 594 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.719 really fun to get your insight and also I think you know, you speak 595 00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:50.480 to a lot of important social issues of course, all in the comics. 596 00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:55.519 We really do appreciate you being on the show and celebrating our hundredth episode. 597 00:46:55.599 --> 00:47:00.239 It's been such a journey to kind of go through the X Men history of 598 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:05.280 comics and recap them and then be able to talk to yourself about Kitty Pride 599 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.840 and hear all of your perspective, which is just you know, it's really 600 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:09.599 great. I mean, Chris, don't you think so? Are you having 601 00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:14.760 a good time? Oh my gosh, this was amazing What a Drink from 602 00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:20.920 True to Talk to You, and What a Milestone. One hundred episode x 603 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.599 Reads is recorded in the United States. Our theme music is written by Austin 604 00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:28.079 Wintry. Please make sure to follow our podcast to be updated on when new 605 00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:31.079 episodes appear every first and third Wednesdays of the month. Follow us on social 606 00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:36.800 media at x reads podcasts, That's the Letter, x r ads podcast on 607 00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:44.480 Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Thanks so much for listening by