1 00:00:16,879 --> 00:00:20,839 Welcome to episode nineteen, part two of Get Out a Live, a podcast 2 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:23,480 where me, your host Ashley every other week comes at you with a new 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,199 animal attack story and me, your other's Nick is just here to edit and 4 00:00:27,239 --> 00:00:29,600 look pretty and I'm not very good at editing, so it must be pretty 5 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,560 pretty. Well. That was a good one. Thanks. Can we tell 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,679 them what you said before? Sure? Okay, So we recorded the centro 7 00:00:36,759 --> 00:00:39,920 a few times and the first time Nick said and me, no, what 8 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:43,960 was it? And your other host Nick, who is me? It didn't 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,119 go very well, but you loved it. You loved it. I just 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,640 stopped crying over it. It was great. Anyways, if you're on our 11 00:00:50,679 --> 00:00:56,320 Patreon, you're getting this right now after episode one, if you want to 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,479 listen to it that way. If you also want to wait, who am 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,240 I to tell you how to consume content? And if not, and you're 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,400 on the regular feed, it's the next week. Hello, Hi, So 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:07,640 we'll just get right into it. It's part two with our interview with Jim 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,840 crosby the world's leading fatal dog attack expert, and we're going to touch on 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,519 some more serious topics. I would say, and yeah, hope you enjoy 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,200 and if you're on our Patreon, like I said, our five or fifteen 19 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:26,239 dollars level, you will also be getting a bonus episode the day that this 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,439 is released on our normal feeds, so keep an eye out for that. 21 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:37,560 I don't think we've talked about breed specific incidences. And I know pitbulls and 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,920 some shepherdy breeds get a really bad rap. Have you found any sort of 23 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:47,319 correlation between some breeds causing more attacks or it's just a crapshoot and dependent on 24 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:53,680 the situation. Yeah, that's one of those questions that's got dynamite and minds 25 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:59,200 all over it. Yep. Okay, So to start with, no, 26 00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:07,159 I don't agree with judging behavior by appearance, and the scientific studies show that 27 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:15,319 visual assessment of breed is even among professionals, is highly highly inaccurate. There 28 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:22,560 was a study of UF that in identifying primary breeds in mixed breeds by sight, 29 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:28,520 even out of a huge professional population, we were right about twenty six 30 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:34,400 percent of the time. So, just like with people, you know, 31 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:40,560 we now hopefully in more situations than not, realize that we can't just look 32 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:49,319 at a person and predict their behavior from what they appear. The illustration that 33 00:02:49,439 --> 00:02:53,639 I will use is that and bless his hard he's no longer with us. 34 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,960 But if you're walking along the street in New York City and you look down, 35 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,800 look at the corner, and you might have once upon a time seen 36 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:12,639 an older gentleman in a wheelchair with a blanket wrapped around his shoulders, looking 37 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:16,560 like he was homeless and starving and cold, and you might have wanted to 38 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:22,639 throw a dollar on his plate or whatever, or in his lap. But 39 00:03:22,759 --> 00:03:27,240 you could have been looking at doctor Stephen Hawking, who was one of the 40 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,280 most brilliant human beings and probably well, now that he's no longer with us, 41 00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:36,520 he knows what's going on. But he probably had the best guess of 42 00:03:36,639 --> 00:03:39,879 how the universe worked, and he could have been sitting on that street corner 43 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:46,439 in New York waiting for his limo. So judging a behavior by appearance doesn't 44 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:57,360 work. That said, there are a huge group of similar looking dogs that 45 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:05,000 people lumped together as pit bulls or pit bull types or bully breeds or whatever 46 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:13,199 you want to and a lot of those are mixes of various things. If 47 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:20,360 if you've ever actually physically encountered a pure bread fighting line pit bull, they're 48 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:26,759 actually small to medium dogs. They're broad in the hidden shoulders, but they're 49 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:31,759 small because they're fast, because they have to be fast to win dogfights. 50 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:38,959 They're not one hundred and twenty pounds of pit bull. That's something else. 51 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:46,839 Who knows what's in it. But I have to say that the numbers indicate 52 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:55,199 that recognizing that this is a huge group of animals, and we don't know 53 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,639 how many of them there really are because they're not registered, and we don't 54 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:06,480 know. There's lots we don't know. But some groups of dogs seem to 55 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:15,000 be somewhat more likely to be involved in reported dog bites and fatalities than others. 56 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,399 Now, part of that is a reporting problem. If you're a six 57 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:30,639 foot seven inch linebacker and your brother in law has a Chihuahua conquer spaniel mix 58 00:05:31,079 --> 00:05:34,959 that bites the crap out of your ankle, even if you have to go 59 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,759 to the doctor, the odds are you're probably not going to report that bite 60 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:46,120 because big mister linebacker man doesn't want to admit that this little ball of fluff 61 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,399 just kicked his butt. On the other hand, if you have if your 62 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:58,360 neighbor that hates you has an obnoxious little child because they're poor parenting skills, 63 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,920 and they hate bully breathes. And your dog is walking by on the street 64 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:11,519 one day and sneezes at the neighbor's kid, they're probably dialing animal control to 65 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,319 say that your dog is vicious or maybe even alleging bites. And some of 66 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,079 the cases I've worked that were alleged dog bites we were able to prove through 67 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:31,399 physical evidence weren't dog bites. So the safest thing to say is typically the 68 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,680 bigger the dog, the bigger the hole they can make with their mouth, 69 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:45,160 And that kind of correlation seems to hold up. You know, little dogs 70 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,639 a little choo. You know, I dealt with a small dog just last 71 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:55,879 week that has some pretty severe behavior problems. It's a rescue Yorky. And 72 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,160 I was wearing kevlar pants, which when I do when I'm dealing with bite 73 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,800 cases, and this dog came over to me and it launched at my legs 74 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,079 and tried, you know, a bit, six or seven or eight times. 75 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:15,920 Just ah, well, it was seven pounds of Yorky and I was 76 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:21,319 wearing protective clothing, so I just weighed him out, you know, let 77 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:29,319 him expend that frantic energy and try to manipulate me by that because he doesn't 78 00:07:29,439 --> 00:07:33,720 know he's only seven pounds. He thinks he's a Great Dane that weighs two 79 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:39,160 hundred pounds. Now when I let the two hundred pound great Dan chew on 80 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,759 me, no, I've been I've been hit by big dogs in the past 81 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,240 too, and I don't care how much protective year you have on. It 82 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:56,600 hurts. But big dogs make big holes. Little dogs make relatively little holes. 83 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,639 But for instance, a lot of my victims are kids that are especially 84 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,879 infants, that are small sized. So a small dog bite on a small 85 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:13,199 person, relatively speaking, is a lot is very similar to a big dog 86 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:18,560 bite to one of us who's in a normal sized adult so breed. We 87 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:24,279 can talk for the next two hours on what breed is and isn't. Judging 88 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:31,840 behavior on appearance doesn't work, and trying to put these cases into convenient pockets 89 00:08:31,919 --> 00:08:37,799 like that is not supported by the data. There's way too much going on. 90 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,200 Yeah, and I feel like there must be something to be said too, 91 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,360 for the fact that pipples seem to be the breed chosen most for dog 92 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:48,639 fighting, but there's so many cases of those dogs being able to be adopted 93 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:52,080 out after they're rescued, but I feel like no one talks about that with 94 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,000 pitbulls. It's like, oh, they're aggressive, and it's like, well 95 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:00,360 if they were mate, Like people use them for this and then they get 96 00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:03,720 rehabbed. Like I don't know, I just I feel like it's so unfair 97 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:07,279 all the time. Bothers me. True story. I was called a couple 98 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,519 of years up to Canada there was a dog fighting arrest. They called it 99 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:18,360 the Ontario twenty one that these were actually a group of dogs, some of 100 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:24,399 which were interrelated, that were bonafide actual fighting dogs. Many of them had 101 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:28,639 fighting records that they'd been fought this many times and won this many times. 102 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:37,399 We're talking real live pitbulls that were selected for, bred for, and trained 103 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:48,279 for the sport or the activity of illegal dog fighting. A team of behavior 104 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,440 people went up and ruled that due to their responses, all of them needed 105 00:09:54,440 --> 00:10:00,799 to be killed. They could not be placed in society. The people involved 106 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:07,200 on the Canadian side in Ontario were able to get the court to allow me 107 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:13,480 to come up and conduct a separate evaluation. And I went in and told 108 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,240 them when I got there, I'm not here to save the dogs. I'm 109 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:24,759 here to see what we've got and to then give you recommendations and document the 110 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:31,279 strengths and the deficits in behavior of these individuals who have been raised in this 111 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,240 environment and trained, and so forth and so on. There were two dogs 112 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:43,879 that were blatantly openly human humanly dangerous that one of them I was never even 113 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:48,120 able to get out of the kennel. The other one I got out interacted 114 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:54,000 with and went nope, this one goes. There was too much going on, 115 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,919 There was too much of a risk of serious offensive engagement of the other 116 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,120 dogs. We brought them. We were able to get the court to release 117 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:07,480 them and bring them back to the States. Out of those, six of 118 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:13,559 them are now working as law enforcement detector dogs for police departments, one of 119 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,600 which was actually a dog called Hansel that this past year was the law Enforcement 120 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:26,960 Dog of the Year and works as the only ARSON certified pitbull type breed in 121 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:33,639 the United States. Two of those dogs that were too dangerous are bonifid Veterans' 122 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:41,879 service dogs, and there was one or two that had medical conditions that wound 123 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,279 up inact. One of them was horrible. The dog had been was placed, 124 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,440 was running around in its backyard and dropped out of a heart attack. 125 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,960 We had no way of knowing, but at least it was in a good 126 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:58,720 place, being treated kindly, and the rest of them were safely paced, 127 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:07,679 placed in chosen, vetted and informed homes and they've been successful. So out 128 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:13,240 of that bunch of dogs, and it would wound up being a total actually 129 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,879 of thirty four that I laid hands on, because there was a couple from 130 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,279 another case and so forth, I only had two of them put down. 131 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:26,919 The rest of them we managed to put through rehabilitation, and there were two 132 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:35,200 more whose behavior was so critical that they had to be euthanized because we could 133 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,600 only get them so far. But the rest of them succeeded. So, 134 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:50,240 you know, trying to make again sweeping judgments based on our perceptions instead of 135 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:58,120 individual case examinations of the individual dogs as individuals as people that they are, 136 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,639 those sweeping generalizations don't tend to apply. The other thing is that in all 137 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:16,200 of my researching of the cases, very very few fatal dog attacks are from 138 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:24,200 dogs that are actually used in illegal dogfighting. And it really makes sense if 139 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,320 you think about it. You know, a dogfight an illegal activity which is 140 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,559 cruel and horrible and vicious and all the bad things. You've got two dogs 141 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:37,080 facing off in a ring, which is long story, but there are also 142 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,759 three human beings in there. There's a handler for each dog and a judge 143 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:46,639 that are standing there next to the dogs. If those dogs redirect their negative 144 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,120 energy and effort towards a human, usually somebody there shoots them right off. 145 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,519 I mean, they're eliminated from the gene pool. Again. It's cruel, 146 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:05,039 it's horrible, it's thankfully illegal. But despite the horrible way those dogs are 147 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,759 treated, if you and that's one of the things I love so much about 148 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:18,720 dogs, if you give them a chance, they can be terribly almost unboundedly 149 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:24,159 forgiving of humans and the way humans have treated them in the past, and 150 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,039 some of them can actually be you know, the big issue is management. 151 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:39,799 Can they be taught to be less focused and responsive towards other dogs in a 152 00:14:41,519 --> 00:14:46,360 negative way? Can they be helped to be you know, they're probably never 153 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,039 going to get to go to the dog park and be chasing around and rolling 154 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:56,559 with everybody else, But at least they can be managed, and they can 155 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:03,879 be their behavior can be changed so they can be neutral towards other dogs, 156 00:15:03,159 --> 00:15:07,000 and that's a huge step forward. With those guys. Yeah, thank you 157 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:09,799 for answering that, because I know that'll be really important for a lot of 158 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,639 people to hear who may have misconceptions about pit bulls because and it's funny that 159 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:20,159 I get it from both sides. I get pit bull advocates who want to 160 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:26,159 say, oh, they're all wonderful dogs. Well, not all of anything 161 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,080 is wonderful, nor are they all evil, terrible, horrible, nasty, 162 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,039 aggressive dogs. And most of the physical myths that you hear, as far 163 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:43,080 as locking jaws and bite forces their garbage, the science has proven they don'tate. 164 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:52,879 There is not a mammal alive today that has a locking jaw that you 165 00:15:52,919 --> 00:16:00,000 have to go down to the species tree if you will, to the heala 166 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:07,000 monsters and another lizard you know, they call it monster, but it's a 167 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:14,519 lizard two reptiles in the desert southwest and northern Mexico to find a locking jaw. 168 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:21,519 There's no mammals. There are no marsupials that have locking jaws. Maybe 169 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:29,519 the thighlasine wolf from Australia might have had an ability to alter its jaw structure, 170 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,759 but we don't know because there aren't any left. So when you do 171 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:37,120 have a dog that has the kind of history just talked about, what is 172 00:16:37,159 --> 00:16:41,360 the rehab process, What is the training process to be able to re introduce 173 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:44,200 them to a family or to a veteran, like you said, where it's 174 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,480 safe for them to be around. It's a long, hard road, and 175 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,240 in the case of the Ontario dogs, it was an intersection of being able 176 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:59,840 to have people resources that had you know, I was able to go up 177 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,480 and look at them, the court was able to make allowances for that. 178 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,640 We had trainers here in Jacksonville that I worked with. There's a trainer named 179 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:18,000 Amy Sadler who has dogs playing for life and she took a number of the 180 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:25,599 dogs and worked with him. And we also had the resource of a benefactor 181 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:32,960 in Canada that had very large money that was able to support us through the 182 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:38,839 process, so that success was a little unusual. The rehab process itself is 183 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:48,000 first we want to give the dog positive, constructive behaviors, things like teach 184 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,680 them to sit, teach them to look at you, teach them to be 185 00:17:52,839 --> 00:18:00,720 able to relax, teach them to focus on other things. And then we 186 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:10,519 slowly go through a process of desensitizing them to the particular triggers replacing their behaviors 187 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:18,759 with constructive behaviors that eventually not only get reinforced by things we do, such 188 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:26,279 as whether it's cookies or toys, or social contact or sniffing or running it 189 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,039 like, whatever reinforces, we not only get them where they can accept that, 190 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:40,799 but then we also teach them behaviors that are self reinforcing, where I 191 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,960 know that if I'm I'm feeling tense and I sit and I look up at 192 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,240 Mom or Dad, I feel better because I've been taught I don't have to 193 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:56,200 be cranked up to the max each and every time that I see another dog. 194 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:03,400 There's a lot of management that's involved along the process, and then you 195 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:11,039 know, we're dealing with dogs there they're living decision making entities that you know, 196 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,799 they're sentient and make choices. So with dogs that have been through a 197 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:21,359 tough time, whether it's because they're fighting dogs, or they've been abused, 198 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:27,720 or perhaps they were taken were strays that were taken away from their littermates way 199 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:30,640 too early, or any of a number of things, you know, we 200 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:37,279 have to have the patience to deal with them and the management to be able 201 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:42,799 to avoid putting them in situations where we're setting them up to fail. So 202 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:49,680 management is equally important as the training and doing our best to set them up 203 00:19:51,440 --> 00:20:00,240 to succeed and to give them coping skills for those incidents or occasions where where 204 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:08,960 their own they're previously trained or reinforced or learned actions would have them do something 205 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:15,160 else. It's so funny you call it management because the second person we interviewed 206 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,559 for this podcast, his name's Oliver Starr. He has a malamute and then 207 00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:22,119 the two wolves, and when we've talked to him about this kind of stuff, 208 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,559 he's like, it's not training so much as effectively managing them all the 209 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:32,079 time, which is so true because training seems like there's an end and there 210 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,440 is not. Yeah, well, I tell people all the time, you 211 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,400 can train your dog. It'll only take you ten minutes a day for the 212 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,880 rest of the dog's life. And you know that's and that's part of providing 213 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:48,039 a good environment for them. You know, we get stale on board if 214 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:52,799 we have nothing to do, so yeah, you know, we try to 215 00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:59,720 put our dogs in as many situations that we can manage as possible so that 216 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:04,599 they get so eventually they can they can learn to accept more and be more 217 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,480 relaxed, and that just snowballs. But for listen to your guy with the 218 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:15,680 wolves, two of his companion animals there would really prefer to be running across 219 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:22,759 about fifty square miles of territory, and so don't put them in a backyard 220 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:30,240 with a crappy fence. They're going to act like wolves, yeah, God, 221 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,200 and as like a tangent. Which you don't have to answer this if 222 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,839 you don't want to. I'm assuming you are also very against wolfdog hybrids. 223 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:41,440 Is that something that pops up a lot in attacks like the combination of the 224 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:48,359 two. It's very rare. Okay, there have been a couple that have 225 00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:55,079 been claimed to be wolf dog hybrids, but to my knowledge, there was 226 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:03,400 not a demonstrable DNA profile, And DNA is hard because remember they're the same 227 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:10,680 species. We've gotten where we can drill down deeper to even which subspecies of 228 00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:14,359 wolf, the red wolf, the Asian wolf, and so forth, But 229 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:22,000 when it comes to cutting the line between where does domestic dogs stop and wolf 230 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:29,720 start, that's real iffy. And there there's been very very few of those 231 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:36,200 cases that even claim to be wolf hybrids that have been involved in human fatalities 232 00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:41,519 or serious human attacks, and from a personal point, as having run a 233 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:47,440 couple of animal control agencies, most of the time, when somebody says I've 234 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,880 got a wolf hybrid, yeah, what you have is a meleamew shepherd mix. 235 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,319 And maybe it's you know, maybe it's got a genetic factor for yellow 236 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,920 eyes, in which case, oh, it's definitely a yeah right, maybe 237 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:07,599 not so yeah, And I think from the people that I've met in the 238 00:23:07,599 --> 00:23:15,720 wolf hybrid community and the wolf communities, most of them are not real happy 239 00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:25,000 with people having supposed wolf hybrids as pets because they have If they are truly 240 00:23:25,599 --> 00:23:30,599 a high content hybrid of dog domestic dog and wolf, then you've got all 241 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:40,319 kinds of genetic, genetically driven behavior issues and needs that you may not be 242 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,880 able to address. For instance, the guy with the two wolves, Again, 243 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,680 those are animals that ideally in the wild, they have a forty or 244 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,599 fifty square mile territory, So he has to not only manage to keep them 245 00:23:53,599 --> 00:24:03,119 from getting loose, but he has to fulfill their psychological and physiological needs in 246 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:10,319 such a way that it's not cruel and irresponsible for him to be keeping them. 247 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,680 So there's a lot of challenges there. Yeah, just the tall order. 248 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:18,240 If you want a domestic dog, go get a dog. Yeah, 249 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:25,119 you know, having an exotic does not make you better, worse, badd 250 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,279 meaner, whatever than the next guy, and you probably are going to have 251 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:38,920 a tough time meeting its true needs in a positive and constructive manner. And 252 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,079 that's what matters. I mean, you don't want your kid growing up in 253 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,440 a household where they keep him locked up in the bathroom all day. No, 254 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:55,680 that's not humane or proper or responsible. So you know, exotic animals 255 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,279 have needs too, and so it's best to leave them to the expert that 256 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:03,240 can provide for those needs. Yeah. Absolutely, So I got us a 257 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,519 little off track with that. But so if you are being attacked, or 258 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,519 you have an animal like your dog that is being attacked by another dog, 259 00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:15,680 do you have tips to stop it or to you know, if an aggressive 260 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,279 dog is coming at you, is there a way to deter them? I 261 00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:25,960 guess it's situationally dependent. Let's look at it as two prongs. If your 262 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:33,079 dog, or if you're in a position where a dog is attacking someone else, 263 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:38,519 so you're not the victim here, but it's another dog or another human 264 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:45,680 or whatever. There are several things of decreasing safety that you can do. 265 00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:55,599 And the first is that simply try a loud and unexpected noise to interrupt the 266 00:25:55,799 --> 00:26:03,519 incident. But when you're doing that, think ahead because the dog may wind 267 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:10,079 up having to be controlled or something. Now if, for instance, I 268 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:17,759 wrote an entire curriculum that's approved by the Department of Justice on dog encounters for 269 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:22,599 police officers, and the first thing that we teach them, for instance, 270 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,039 obviously is to avoid the encounter completely if you can. And for officers it's 271 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:30,720 like, okay, if you see the dog in the yard and the gate 272 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,720 is open and the dogs on the other side of the fence close the gate, 273 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:38,599 Dada, it's done. We don't have to shoot anything. If you 274 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:45,480 see a dog that's attacking somebody or another dog, if it's another dog, 275 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:52,759 especially if there is an owner with that dog, there is a good chance 276 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:56,400 of being able to break things up. First thing I'd look for is is 277 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,920 there something you can put between the two dogs? Is there a lawn chair 278 00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:04,400 that you can shove between them and not lay hands on either one of them. 279 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:14,160 In some animal control and facilities where they're dealing with dogs that have horrible 280 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,720 reactivity, there's something called a pig board, which is basically a piece of 281 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,079 plywood with a couple of handles on it that you can slide between two animals. 282 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:26,680 They use them a parent. I'm not a farm kid, but apparently 283 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,799 when pigs get pissed off at each other, you have to put something between 284 00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:36,200 them. Ergo the pig board, but something you can slide and get in 285 00:27:36,319 --> 00:27:40,039 between the two dogs so that then you can separate it. If they've both 286 00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:44,720 got leashes. Once you get that initial separation, then you have a means 287 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,240 of control. Do not reach in and try to peel them apart. That 288 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,039 will get you bit. I've done it myself, even though I know better. 289 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,880 There have been a couple of times, despite my training, despite all 290 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,680 my experience, I have reached my hand into a dogfight and have gotten bitten 291 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:14,400 every time. So if you've got to physically remove two dogs from each other, 292 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:21,160 the safest way, especially if you don't have leashes and collars, is 293 00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:26,400 to grab each dog by the rear legs, pick them up, and slowly 294 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:32,960 back apart. If you have a dog that's on top of another person and 295 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:38,079 mauling them, grab the dog by the rear legs and back up. Don't 296 00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:44,799 try to force it backwards. But if you take away number one, the 297 00:28:44,839 --> 00:28:48,559 back legs and don't grab them by the tail, that's gonna just piss them 298 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:53,839 off. The back legs give you two handles where you can hold onto the 299 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,519 dog and it has to actually turn around to hurt you, so you're not 300 00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:03,599 putting your hand in the way of damage. The other thing is that, 301 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:11,079 even though it's not nice or kind or humane, if you're pulling a dog 302 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:15,960 off of another person and you're backing it up and it decides to try to 303 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,160 turn and redirect towards you, you can do what we call a helicopter, 304 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:26,880 and that is you spin around and use the dog's own weight to keep the 305 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,880 pointy end away from you. I mean, the end you've got may may 306 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,240 may not be pleasant in some circumstances, but it's the pointy end that you 307 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,960 want to keep away from you. So literally, and again, I've seen 308 00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:45,799 situations where it had to be done. You know, you back up, 309 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:52,079 and you use the dog's body weight, and if necessary, you haul off 310 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:57,519 and try to be like Ilso the shot putter and chunk the dog as far 311 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,720 as possible. Typically, again, you know, typically when the dog hits 312 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,400 the ground, it's gonna at least maintain its space or run away or something, 313 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:15,279 or you have a way of seeking shelter. That's again, that's not 314 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,799 nice or kind or gentle or positive or any of those things we want to 315 00:30:21,799 --> 00:30:27,319 do. But if it's saving a person's life, it's better and safer than 316 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,920 trying to whip out your trusty pistol and start firing rounds at a dog that's 317 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,240 in intimate contact with a human being and doing damage. I mean, I 318 00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:45,519 tell police officers, and they're trained in the use of firearms properly. If 319 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:51,319 they have to take the shop to save a human fine, I understand that, 320 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,720 but make sure you have gone through the process of trying to use lower 321 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,640 levels of force. Now, if you come around the corn corner and there's 322 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,640 one hundred pound dog that's got a three year old in its mouth and shaking 323 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,039 it, do whatever you have to do. Try to keep yourself safe, 324 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:15,079 try to save the kit. Why because we're speciests and two legs out boats 325 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:22,480 for every time. But you know there are a range of other options. 326 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:29,720 If you look around at kennels and training facilities, a lot of them will 327 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:34,680 have and I recommend strongly they have air horns like you carry on a boat. 328 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,240 Because you get two dogs that are fighting, or even if they're just 329 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:42,599 about to and you walk up and you blast that air horn at them. 330 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,640 It's loud, it's scary, they're distracted. Suddenly, things are a lot 331 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:59,079 less focused than they were a second ago. Fire extinguishers really awesome tools if 332 00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:02,440 you have to enter being in either a dog fight or a dog attack on 333 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,880 a human, especially the carbon dioxide ones. For two reasons. Number one, 334 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:15,359 it's a great tool because it's really loud, it's really cold, and 335 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:23,039 it develops this it gives you this visible barrier. And uh, secondly because 336 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:27,519 you don't have to clean it up like you have to with the dry chemical 337 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:35,119 fire extinguishers. But fire extinguishers are a great way of intervening, especially again 338 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,480 if you come up on a person that is being rapidly bitten, even if 339 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,160 you know if you're using one of those tools, even if it hasn't gotten 340 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:50,319 to a critical situation, those tools can help interrupt. For law enforcement, 341 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:57,680 pepper spray is highly highly effective on dogs. It hurts, you know, 342 00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:01,319 they're they're they're not going to fall over. You know. People think, 343 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:05,440 oh, if I spray in with the pepper spray. They're going to fall 344 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,039 over and not do it. No, they're probably going to run the other 345 00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:12,680 direction and at least get But it gets you a way to buy some space. 346 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,599 For people who are out walking their dogs in neighborhoods that have a lot 347 00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:22,720 of strays, especially if there's problem strays. If it's legal, get one 348 00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:30,519 of those little cans of like the especially the gel pepper spray, because you 349 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:34,559 don't get this fog that gets all over everybody, and you know, a 350 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:39,480 little squirt in the face and the dog kind of backs up and goes, 351 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,799 excuse me. I think I heard somebody calling me over here. I've got 352 00:33:43,839 --> 00:33:47,240 someplace else to be. And for police officers, I have this wonderful video 353 00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:52,759 that was from body camera where an officer was being crowded up against his car 354 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,839 and basically attacked by two dogs. And he did all of the things right. 355 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,319 He used his voice, he used a baton as a way to keep 356 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:08,119 distance. He eventually applied pepper spray and the dogs ran back off into the 357 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,800 front yard, and then he had a a and I love this guy. 358 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:16,679 He simply opened the back door of his police car where the cage was and 359 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,519 said, come on, guys, let's go for a ride. And the 360 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:24,400 dogs jumped in his car and he closed the door and the encounter was over. 361 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,480 That's thinking on your feet and that's you know, but for a normal 362 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,440 person again, if you're if you're you're out walking your dog and you're worried 363 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:42,119 about you know, stray is approaching. If it's legal, pepper spray is 364 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:47,360 really effective and if you know a dog comes charging up, even dogs that 365 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,679 are actively coming at you are affected. The City of Baltimore did a study 366 00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:00,400 twenty cases where dogs actually went offensive and were actively attacked their police officers, 367 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:08,039 and they used pepper spray and in nineteen of the cases, even fast moving 368 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:14,159 charging dogs. Nineteen of them they stopped the first time they got hit by 369 00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:16,920 the pepper spray, and in the twentieth the dog got a hold of the 370 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,519 officer's trousers, but he hit them a second time and the dog ran off. 371 00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:28,760 It works. If you don't have pepper spray, you know, find 372 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,320 something else. We talk about police officers using their batons, or somebody who's 373 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,320 using a golf club as a walking stick or something. You're not carrying that 374 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,920 to beat on the other dog. You're carrying that to extend, to give 375 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:51,199 an approaching dog a target that's another three or four feet away from you to 376 00:35:51,519 --> 00:35:54,840 expend its energy on rather than on you or your dog. Yeah, I've 377 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,719 heard umbrellas work really well too, to just pop them out, pop them 378 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,199 out. In fact, that's that's part of the temperament testing that some groups 379 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,440 do, is you have your dog standing by beside you man the judge in 380 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,440 a non threatening manner, pops open an umbrella. You want to see what 381 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,480 the dog does. And also, and I've done that with evaluation, because 382 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,559 I want to see what the dog does, but I also want to see 383 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:24,719 if the dog can recover from a sudden impulse like that, a sudden distraction. 384 00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:34,199 But yeah, an umbrella works, you know, anything to gain space 385 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:38,519 between you and another dog, or between your dog and another dog. Actually, 386 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:45,840 unfortunately our podcast is long, so long. I'm so sorry. Well 387 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,280 i'm sorry. As we're going through, you get going, and I just 388 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,440 it's been great. I have been extatic the whole time, and I'm sitting 389 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,079 here in my head like, how do we cut this down? This is 390 00:36:57,079 --> 00:37:07,039 so perfectly well, you can cut out the quiet faces and you but yeah, 391 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:12,519 it's been great talking to you guys and so much. I hope your 392 00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:19,719 listeners enjoy it, and I hope they listen because I think we've I think 393 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,320 that you've had good questions and their issues that we really should be looking at, 394 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:30,679 you know. You know, let's understand a little bit about making assumptions 395 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,960 about dogs based on what they look like. And let's understand a little bit 396 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:45,559 about preventing dog bites by understanding why dogs need or or see that there is 397 00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:51,679 a purpose to be gained by using their teeth. Understanding if we could get 398 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:55,800 people got if we could get people to pay attention to and understand body language, 399 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,679 we could we could keep so many people say quick, funny story. 400 00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,079 And I know this won't be a part of the regular thing, but I 401 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:13,119 have a case. I have a case that, oh God, human stupidity 402 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:19,079 is unbounded. Yep. Guy goes to a party and I'm called in as 403 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:22,679 an expert on this. Guys goes to a party in someone's backyard. One 404 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:29,760 of the other guests has a dog, very well behaved, that knows most 405 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:36,679 of the people and is very easily easy with people, socialized and so forth. 406 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:44,239 The supposed victim walks into the backyard with these other people and for whatever 407 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:49,320 reason, and the dog's on a leash with his owner on the other side 408 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,239 of the yard and visiting with people and they're having a wonderful The dog looks 409 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,440 up and sees this person. And I've told people, if your dog doesn't 410 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:04,360 like another person, trust your dog. Because the dog looks up, sees 411 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:13,119 this guy and moves between the owner and the dog and this guy and starts 412 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:16,840 by, you know, hard stare and then teep and then a growl and 413 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:24,559 then barking. Okay, so the dog is speaking very clearly, there's something 414 00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:30,440 about you that I don't know or I don't like. There's something that makes 415 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,920 you makes me uncomfortable. Now, you know. The owner tried to blow 416 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,199 it off as you know, being well, you know, stay back because 417 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,480 you know, Fluffy's in a bad mood or Fluffy hasn't had dinner or whatever, 418 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,320 and tries to tell this person stay back, stay back, stay back, 419 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:53,800 and retreats as far as they can and pulls Fluffy up. The alleged 420 00:39:53,920 --> 00:40:00,360 victim. I hate to say the idiot, but this dude said, dude, 421 00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:07,159 I'm like a dog whisperer. It's fine, and goes up to the 422 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,360 dog who is now backed up as far as the dog can, who's still 423 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,440 giving signals, grabs the dog by the cheeks and reaches over and kisses it 424 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:25,280 on the nose. The dog predictably bites once and removes a good piece of 425 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:30,679 this person's face and mostly his nose, just the soft tissue. The dog 426 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:36,280 does not reach in and grab and rip huge hunks off. The dog doesn't 427 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:42,000 engage multiple times. It's one bite that the teeth. A couple of the 428 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,239 teeth happened to catch that soft tissue there. They call it the nare of 429 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,960 your nose. An ar but catches the nare and rips it all the crap 430 00:40:53,480 --> 00:41:00,880 and then the dog backs up. Well. Rocket scientist decides later he wants 431 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:07,519 to sue the owner of the pit quote pit bull because his vicious dog bid 432 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:14,280 him well. I was on a conference with the two attorneys and basically I 433 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,159 we were zooming, and I looked at the person's attorney and said, I 434 00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:22,320 know you can't answer this, but is your client a complete an utter moron 435 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:28,840 or what? And just like Ashley just responded there. That was the reaction 436 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,000 I got from the attorney on mute and that was the end. I haven't 437 00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:37,760 heard anything back from that since but you know, that's a situation where human 438 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:44,679 stupidity coupled with a and the owner understood her dog was uncomfortable and there was 439 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,880 nowhere else to go. But if we could just teach people to stop being 440 00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:53,719 stupid, you know, was the dog vicious? Hell no, the dog 441 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:59,559 was actually tolerant. And the fact that it only bit once and had a 442 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,679 what we call an inhibited engagement in other words, he didn't rip the guy's 443 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,119 face clean off all the way to the bone, that means that to me, 444 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,480 that was a good dog. Here, let me make sure the guy 445 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:16,960 has his shot so you don't get sick. But yeah, wait, that 446 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:23,039 was a dog that showed incredible restraint and patience and tolerance for human stupidity. 447 00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:30,320 Yeah. So that's the whole basis for this podcast because as a buzz common 448 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:34,280 yep, Because as a biologist in my previous job, I used to have 449 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,800 to answer calls from the public where they had the same types of concerns, 450 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,559 but about wild animals. So like, there's a coyote in my yard. 451 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:43,960 It's gonna take my kid. And it's like, well, no, teach 452 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,400 your kid not to go pet a coyote and it's fine. Yeah, it's 453 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,639 like the comedian. There's a comedian who does a bit and it's a lady 454 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:57,000 who does this, and she goes on about if you're gonna go to the 455 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,320 beach, go to the beach, but don't go in the ocean because the 456 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,880 ocean is the shark's house. And if you go into shark's house and the 457 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:12,280 sharks bite you, it's your fault. Don't go into shark's house. Or 458 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,519 you know, things like you know we see the other time. You know, 459 00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:20,239 well, the person was dangling their child over the tiger cage to get 460 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,280 her better view and drops them and then gets mad because the tiger attacked the 461 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:32,280 child. Well, duh, a tiger thought you were feeding him. Tiger's 462 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:37,039 being tiger. Or you know African wild dogs, they had a case like 463 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:45,519 that where the people did they held the the three year old over the fenced 464 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,079 edge of the enclosure and dropped a three or everything was up like Cleveland or 465 00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:53,840 Cincinnati, somewhere up the middle of the country, and the child got it 466 00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:00,920 and the child got attacked. And of course, you know the wild dogs 467 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:07,599 are painted or painted dogs. They're not domesticated dogs anyway. Yeah, they're 468 00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:13,000 they're canids, but they're another branch off the left side of the the phylogenetic 469 00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:22,400 tree there somewhere. But they attack the kid, well duh, And and 470 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:29,159 and then or it's like, you know, people people wind up in the 471 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:34,039 bear enclosure, and then the zoo winds up having to shoot the bear to 472 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:37,119 save the stupid person. And you know, I'm almost like, well, 473 00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:42,159 just let the bear finish what he's doing and let's make sure he doesn't get 474 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,559 sick, because the bear didn't do anything that wasn't being a bear. You 475 00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:52,920 know, I am you know, even in places like Yellowstone, I get 476 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:59,880 I understand the concerns with bears becoming habituated to people, but damn, just 477 00:45:00,159 --> 00:45:02,559 a bear acts like a bear. Why do we need to necessarily whack the 478 00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:07,920 bear? I yeah, we talk about Yellowstone in like every episode. You 479 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,360 would enjoy a lot of our episodes. It's a lot of this stuff of 480 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,079 hey, that person's the idiot, but like we understand why that would kill 481 00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:17,679 me, and yeah, we understand it, but sucks mostly because they won't 482 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:25,840 let us put the people down. Yeah, well said, you feel for 483 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,679 the animal, but like, you know, you don't want to be bitten 484 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,760 by the shark. Don't go into shark's house. Yea, yep, yeah. 485 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,719 Don't want to be mobbed by the polar bear unless you're an innowit who's 486 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:45,039 out hunting and comes across one legitimately on both of your own territory. Don't 487 00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:47,519 want to get bit by the polar bear. Don't go in the polar bear 488 00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:52,159 cage. Don't own a chimpanzee and you won't get attacked by a chimpanzee. 489 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:57,400 Yes, don't. Don't own a chimpanzee, and you won't have two hundred 490 00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:01,440 pounds a very powerful, pissed off I mad trying to rip your arms off, 491 00:46:02,199 --> 00:46:08,519 which so much, Oh my, thank you. You know people have 492 00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:13,559 asked me before, do you ever deal with wild anta? No? I 493 00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:16,440 don't want to deal with wild animals. They're wild animals. They're fine without 494 00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:21,559 me. Yeah, you know, I don't want to have you know, 495 00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:24,440 I personally don't care to have a pet wolfsh because I can't meet their needs. 496 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,719 I don't want a chimpanzee because I'm not Michael Jackson and weird. I 497 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,480 I don't want a polar bear or a big cat. I applaud the experts 498 00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:40,199 and the zookeeper people. Who do their best to treat these animals humanely and 499 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:46,199 kindly and to recognize their needs and to recognize their natures. But yeah, 500 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,679 that's not me. I've had to catch a couple of alligators working with animal 501 00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:57,760 control, but that's because it was my job, and I've I'm not afraid 502 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,480 of snakes, although I would just assume let them go their way and me 503 00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:07,800 go mine. And I've had to remove a couple, including rattlesnakes with snake 504 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:15,320 tongs and and move them because what we were doing didn't require us to necessarily 505 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,840 kill the snake. Does that mean I'm going to pick him up and pat 506 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,119 ym No. Now, I don't need I don't need the snake in my 507 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,920 pocket. He doesn't belong there. I'll let him go scurry off into the 508 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,519 palmetto brush where snakes be, and I'll stay over on the road where I 509 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:35,119 be. Thank you so much, Jim. We can talk to you forever. 510 00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:42,199 Well. I appreciate you having me on, and I certainly hope we've 511 00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:46,360 been able to inform infective. Let's let's give a break here click. Thank 512 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:51,360 you so much for having me on, and I appreciate the opportunity, and 513 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,280 I hope your listeners have enjoyed this, and anytime you want, please give 514 00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,519 me a yellow Back and I'll be glad to talk to you. And that 515 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,519 was the end of our interview with Jim. Pretty pretty interesting, a lot 516 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:09,320 of stuff I'd never really thought about. That seeing enemies were aggressive, that's 517 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,360 badass. I love that. I mean that was right off the bat. 518 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,199 Makes sense though, I mean they have like like single seal organ ins that 519 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,039 balt each other, right, so I guess makes sense. Yeah, And 520 00:48:20,519 --> 00:48:22,119 Michael Jackson having a champ. I knew that. I don't know how he 521 00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,280 didn't know that. I don't know either. I guess I'm not like my 522 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,920 finger is not on the pulse with this like it is with other things. 523 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,320 But yeah, Michael Jackson isn't in your uh not my wheelhouse normally, No, 524 00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:36,199 no, no, definitely not. But I will say the more like 525 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:37,960 after this interview. Right now, it's a few weeks after we did the 526 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,920 interview, and I've spent a lot of time since then. Also, if 527 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:45,119 you hear grunting noises, that Sawyer again, he's still sitting behind us watching 528 00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:50,840 us record, upset that we have not spoken about him more. But I've 529 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,280 been doing a lot of like research into dog training, I mean for my 530 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,960 own dogs, but also just so, Jim was on this podcast called The 531 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,960 Bitey End of the Dog, which is by Mike. Yeah, I think 532 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,119 the host name is Mike Shikaska. I might be butchering his last name, 533 00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:09,199 but I can't find it right in front of me at the moment. So 534 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,599 anyways, he it's a great podcast. He's a dog trainer and behavioralist. 535 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,599 So he had Jim on to talk about similar things that we talked about, 536 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,480 but you and I obviously got more to the nitty gritty of like what the 537 00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:27,920 attacks look like yep. And he had a really interesting episode on this podcast, 538 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,920 The Byy End of the Dog, with this woman named Kim Brophy and 539 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:36,960 she's an ethologist, which is some who studies animal behavior, and she talks 540 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:43,280 about in one part which like I wanted to mention because I asked Jim the 541 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,880 pit bull question, are they more predisposed to being aggressive because they're pit bulls? 542 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,639 And there wasn't a yes or no yeah, which I think is good 543 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:58,079 because this woman Kim Brofy was saying. She was saying that she's had people 544 00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:04,280 call her a breed racist before because she's said that breeds do matter sometimes, 545 00:50:04,559 --> 00:50:07,039 because she was saying, you know, I mean I even experienced it with 546 00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:08,679 my own dogs where I have a shepherd mix and terrier mix. They don't 547 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,960 learn the same because they were bred for different things. And this woman Kim 548 00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:15,400 was saying, you know, sometimes I'll point out like, oh, your 549 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:20,360 dog is a this so you have to do this this way, and people 550 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,760 call her a breed racist, I guess because they're like, oh, it's 551 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,800 all about how they're raised, not about what they are. But sometimes it 552 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,519 is. Yeah, because we specifically bred dogs most of the time for a 553 00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:34,679 purpose, so it only makes sense that some of them are more prone to 554 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,360 like being reactive, like I heard Australian shepherds, because they are meant to 555 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,119 be a herding dog out by themselves with a bunch of sheep, like, 556 00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:45,159 they tend to be more dog aggressive, I guess than other dogs. And 557 00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:49,960 I mean same with my terrier, who's dog aggressive. Terriers aren't meant to 558 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,519 be with a bunch of other dogs. They're meant to be like out in 559 00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:54,440 a barn, you know. And we're as Sawyer here. I mean, 560 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,559 he's a Shepherd mix, but like he's supposed to be up my butt all 561 00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:01,719 along and he is. Yeah, literally, he's directly behind me right now, 562 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,840 within like a few inches. So I just thought that was something to 563 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,239 point out because I didn't want to come off as like, oh it, 564 00:51:07,679 --> 00:51:10,599 the breed never matters. It does, but it's not the end all be 565 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:15,559 all, is my point. I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, 566 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:16,880 yeah, the Biting End of the Dog. That's a really good podcast if 567 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,159 you want to get more into like dog behavior and aggression and whatnot and like 568 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:27,079 dive deeper into that. But I do at the end of this want to 569 00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:32,480 include some resources for people who have experienced trauma from dogs. I want to 570 00:51:32,519 --> 00:51:36,920 gather some stuff because I feel like it's pretty common that a lot of people 571 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,559 have had, like know someone or they themselves were attacked by a dog. 572 00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:44,960 Yeah, so I'll include some resources for that, and some more resources on 573 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,000 how you can protect yourself when you're out on a walk if other dogs come 574 00:51:47,079 --> 00:51:51,280 to fuck with you. Very cool. Yeah, I guess I have enough 575 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,679 much more to add, Yeah I did. It's kind of my thing. 576 00:51:55,079 --> 00:52:00,079 So yeah, thank you for joining us for this little adventure we had about 577 00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:06,320 dogs. I'm sure we'll revisit dogs at some point. Yeah, this is 578 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:12,039 probably the most common attack there is, right, so good question the price 579 00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:15,280 I've hit that in the interview that to call them again, have another interview, 580 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:16,880 Jim, We're coming for you. But thank you so much for listening 581 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:22,039 to the entirety of episode nineteen of Get Out Alive. To see more information 582 00:52:22,119 --> 00:52:23,440 links with this episode, like I was talking about, check out the episode 583 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:28,519 description below or check out our website get at Alive podcast dot com. If 584 00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:30,639 you like this episode, you can rate us five stars on Spotify and Apple 585 00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:35,400 Podcasts, and you can also do it on podchaser Now so we can talk 586 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,639 back to you and say thanks, or how that hurt, or just talk 587 00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:39,840 shit in general. Yeah, you talked you about my life, talks to 588 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:45,480 you about yours? Wow, Okay, subscribe wherever you're listening. Join us 589 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,800 on Patreon, where we have different tiers for different benefits. So there's the 590 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,880 one dollars so you can support us for like fifty cents an episode, it's 591 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,599 a dollar a month, five dollars or fifteen dollars. You can follow us 592 00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:58,320 on Instagram at get out a Live Pod and follow me on Twitter at the 593 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,039 Angryologists. Thank you to much good friend and second grade husband Josh Walsh Form 594 00:53:01,039 --> 00:53:04,360 making our intro music. I realized I just skipped over. That's fine, 595 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,719 we don't need to get back to it. Great. We'll be back with 596 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,280 a new animal tax story next week. Peace