Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about
Kenshin the Beginning. Myself, Paul, and Riki had a lot of fun
the last couple of weeks. Really the last week it just felt like longer
because we had four episodes in four days talking about Avatar the Last air Mender,
and it's gotten this a remembering how much the three of us really enjoy
our conversations. But also I think it got a lot of us thinking about
anime they get translated into television and also just martial arts stuff and things like
that, and so it is possible that some combination of us will be talking
about one piece at some point on this podcast. But it also reminded us
that we had not finished out the Kenshin movies, the Rroni Kenshin movies that
we've done a couple episodes about in the past, and today talking about one
of the last two. They were released at the same time. Uh we
Ronni Kenchin the Beginning, and then the last one is the finale. Today
we're talking specifically about the Beginning, and Riki is laughing, I think because
of my pronunciation, but I'm not sure. But Riki, how are we
doing today, I'm laughing because yes, I looked up the releases and I
think there's five movies live action movies total, and as you just mentioned,
these two were released in Japan together in theaters, and it's the beginning and
the finale, right, it's the story. It's the beginning and the finals
of the English titles. In terms of this one we're talking about today,
I've never more desired a backstory to my backstory. It's very fair like this
movie is the backstory to the primary story of the anime and manga, and
yet we're still thrown right into it and he's already a sword master and we're
kind of like, how how'd you get so good? My friend? Yeah,
so funny story. I watched the animated movie or movies, depending on
how you look at it. I guess there's like four chapters and it's in
two DVD sets and anyway, and it is what this is adapted from,
although I guess that's originally adapted from the manga, so how you however you
want to see it, And it starts off with Shinta in this caravan who
get attacked by bandits and then everybody gets killed. He's protected by these women
who then get killed, and then this sword master shows up and kills everybody,
and then Shinta buries everybody, and the sword master comes back to see
that he's buried everybody, and it's like, I see that you've buried all
of you know, the the enemies along with like your fallen debt, like
your friends and family, and Shinta's like, well, they're all dead bodies,
so I buried them all. Also, that wasn't my friends and family.
Those were slavers who had kidnapped me and whatever. And then it's like
Shinta is two week a name for a swordsman. I will call you Kenshin.
And then then there's like five minutes of them training and and then there's
like a little more so in the animated like version, like that montage we
do, we get a proper training montage, and the entire story is kind
of bookended by this proper training montage in the beginning, and then a proper
you know, killing montage at the end instead of like a single battle scene.
Let's back up a little bit because I'm guessing that a lot of our
listeners boilers for the animated by the way, Sorry, yeah, this is
gonna be all the spoilers, and I'm hoping some of you have the movie.
If not, I do recommend you doing so, or at least seeing
some of the Kenshin stories. This is not my favorite of the Kenchin movies,
but I do think that they're all very good, and some of them
are particularly wonderful. I'm not a huge fan of the anime, but many
many people are, and I think I definitely can tell why we start though,
just to help catch people up. Can what do you give? Just
kind of like a sixty second explanation of the overall character, and then we
can talk about this specific movie. But just like if someone asks you,
like, who is ru Roni Kenshin? What are they? What are these
movies and TV shows about? Well, let's see, he's a he's a
well so, like we've been saying, this is his backstory to the anime
and manga in that he is a a wandering Droni. It's not the name
for like Ronian that she might be more familiar with. He's a wandering warrior
who has forsaken killing, and in the primary storyline he uses us what is
sakabato the reverse sword, so his katana the front part of the katana is
not a blade. It's blunt and his blade is on the backside, which
is reverse from katana normal katana and doesn't make much sense, but that's that's
how he fights because he has decided to no longer kill people or in the
Japanese to cut people imply and kill him. And he goes on like these
adventures and fades people. In Meiji era Japan, the period right after the
nation of Japan was reopened to the world forcibly reopened by the American ships of
commodore perry and went through a transition period. So this is like after that,
and there's there's some amount of chaos and banditry in the world in Japan,
and he is going around just helping ordinary people and stopping the bandits and
stopping some of the criminal elements who are who are trying to capitalize on the
world, you know, being open to them now weapons trades, drug trades,
etc. Yeah, it's so for those who don't know too much with
that history, this is in like the eighteen seventies and it's a pretty chaotic
time. As Rigu was saying, it's the establishment of a national government and
a much more sort of Western style government when it had been very futile and
disorganized with the showguns kind of running everything, and that war is the background,
but then really comes into the foreground during this movie. Paul was just
I'm sorry, I just want I would say that it wasn't disorganized, like
the Tokugau baka Fu Sugarnate was like incredibly organized and centralized, right, but
it was deemed I mean, people decided a bunch of people decided that that's
not what Japan needed as a nation to confront the world powers at that time,
and then that they needed to modernize, and a lot of the elements
of the shogunate were against that. They were more traditionalists, so that there
was this period of revolution and uprising and yes, like that's chaotic, but
I would say that the Bakfu the shogunate was the stabilizing force. And that's
one of the arguments that several of the characters in this movie make is that
the shogunate maintained peace for three hundred years and now you're causing this chaos,
right, but also like it was peace through oppression, right, Like there
was a rigid cast system and sure, absolutely you know something that I wouldn't
call peace, but that people call peace right, you know, like I
would say, we don't have peace in the United States. But one of
the things that I think is very ironic, and I'm a political junkie,
and so I always wish the show would explore this more the movies, and
it doesn't really, but it does touch on it some. Is that like
if any of you have seen in the movie The Last Samurai, which is
by no means an accurate depiction, it's it's Dances with Samurai, very much
in the Dances with Wolves, it's the white saving story, but it's about
this same period of history, but from the other side, because part of
the modernization was an attempt to really get rid of the samurai culture and which
through one set of eyes, was very you know, traditional and beautiful and
powerful and helped to maintain peace, and through another set of eyes, was
very cast based and rigid and was often very corrupt. And you know,
the books and books and history on who's right or wrong in that. But
what I thought was really interesting about the show in these movies, and it's
actually called out here, is so the the anti showgunate forces the people who
are trying to do restore the emperor, hence it's called the Maji restoration.
Are our anti samurai and our hero Kenshin is a samurai and is described by
that by many people, or at least that's many the word many people use
for him, and it's fighting for the emperor for the Maji forces, which
I'm sure he is a part of the history. It makes sense, but
it's one of the things where I'm like that, I want you to focus
on that, tell me more about what's happening there, But that's not really
what this movie is about. Yeah, like I well, go ahead.
It's it's complicated because when you say when you just say samurai like that,
that evokes a certain image right of the sorts the swordsman. But as as
we mentioned earlier, like it's a whole cast system, so people, Yeah,
it's it's complicated because everyone fighting essentially with swords are samurai because that those
are the people who were allowed to carry swords and who were trained in the
art. And then at the end of this movie, like we see the
battle and there are like regular conscripted soldiers with rifles, with guns or with
like spears I think was another weapon they use. So that that was part
of what was going on, was like breaking down the cast system. And
yeah, like there were samurai who were interested in breaking down the cast system,
often because they're like families or their their regions were less powerful, so
they were seeking power by destroying by breaking down the system, they kept them
down low. And so well, don't I don't know if we're going to
get to this now, but one of the characters in the story is a
real person mhmm, the basically the guy who is Kenshin's boss in this Yeah,
kots what's his name? Katsako was a real person, and he was
one of the basically the three founders of the Meiji Restoration, And so like
everything going on here is in the backdrop of real history and the fact that
they have a real historical figure who participated in all this kind of being the
puppet master, so to speak. I found that to be the most interesting
part of this particular movie, and the way that he is using Kenshin as
an assassin to kill his enemies, as it's just like, I don't know,
there are other stories that get told like this in like real history.
I think we see stuff in like the American Revolution with the three Musketeers,
right the French Revolution, where it's like, well, like here here's the
story of like these heroes that we don't talk about in history because we can't,
right, Yeah, I mean, how many stories are told as like
there was a real life plot to assassinate history, to assassinate Hitler. There
were numerous plots like that, and then that's been fictionalized one hundred different times
in a hundred different ways. There have been numerous stories about, you know,
fictionalized people set against the background of our own American Civil War, some
of which are incredibly historic, some of which show Abraham Lincoln killing vampires.
So like there's a wide range, and I will say that I'm not sure
which that particular story does more violence to American Civil War history or vampire mythology,
but it clearly is violet to both. But that's another story from their
time. Let me kind of try to do a quick summary of this movie,
and please film me in with some of the details and stuff. So,
as we said, this is now sat a couple of years before the
main movies and the show and things like that. And one thing that was
established in the earlier movies that I don't know if he established in the anime
as well, But please tell me one way or the other is that at
some point during the war, one of the people he was supposed to assassinate,
he kind of did it at the guy's bachelor party, Like not in
the American sense today, but it's like a guy with a bunch of his
friends. His friends had taken him out drinking because he was going to get
married the next day. And Kenchin had to kill this guy, and this
guy just refused to die, and he kept getting back up and trying to
keep fighting because he has. He kept saying, I have something to live
for. Watching it happen here, there's a part of me that wonders,
why doesn't he just shut the hell up and let Kenshin walk away, Like
stop picking up your sword, dude, just be okay. But putting that
aside, like we've known for a while that that that incident was a big
part of what sort of made Kenshin like feel really bad about this time and
like want to not do this again. And this movie goes into more detail
about how that happened, but he's mostly set still after that has happened,
and he is still working for I'm sorry, what was the name of that
guy who was working for the Patra Thank you. I was watching in subtitles,
so I didn't hear it all necessarily. I mean I was hearing it,
but I couldn't pick out the individual words. And he's doing assassinations.
The shogunate forces are are trying to really on stopping him. They come after
him a few times, and it's decided that he should go off into the
woods to kind of be at this cabin with a woman who has been spending
more and more time around their gang, and he's kind of adopted her,
and there's a little bit of like are they is he kind of seeing her
the little sisters, He kind of seeing her as like there's a potential flirtation
there. It's very very chaste. But the two of them go off together
and spend this time, you know, basically it's them against the world,
hiding from the world. It's beautifully done. The two kind of fall for
each other and they start to build the romance together and start to build,
you know, a little bit of the life together. But all the time
he is still in contact with one of his friends from back in Kyoto.
I think it is. And we learned that there's a spy in that organization
and part of why they have ways that until they figure out a spy.
Coming as a great shock to anybody who has never seen a movie before,
we do learn that the woman he is with is herself the spy. That
there is that major spoilers here, that she has been trying to target him
from the beginning, because as we learned, she is the woman who the
guy who was killed was going to marry. So she has this real like
vengeance thing against Kenshin, but of course she has really fallen for him,
and and and as these kind of things play out, she kind of tries
to maybe stop it, but doesn't have a chance to. Kensin walks into
a trap and they almost kill Kenshin. Apparently ewoks have been flown in because
it's the very ewok kind of you know, just all the sorts of forest
things happening. That's kind of vers in the woods. Yeah, ewoks,
you know, or like what's it called, something like via Kong like you
know, yeah, it jump into ewosis. That just shows how formative return
of the Jedi is in your that's very fair. I'm probably being horribly insulting,
and I apologize. Yeah, it is a very well done set of
bombs and traps that almost kill Kenshin, and he's forced into a big a
battle with a big bed, and again is a huge shock to nobody who's
ever seen a movie before. The woman runs out and tries to say to
save save Kenshin, and in so doing does save Kenshin. And Kenshin gets
a final sword blow in when he's blinded and winds up killing both the big
Bed and her. And we learned then that that is he had initially been
saying to him like, hey, do you need to keep fighting? Do
you need to keep fighting and challenging him because he kept saying that, you
know, he really does believe in this idea that the Maji, the Maji
you are going to, you know, bring about this new era of peace
and goodness and everything. And she's saying like, how can you kill your
way to peace? And the end of the movie is him kind of recalling
her words and realizing, like, you know, I I will not kill
kill it, and well he he He doesn't quite give it up though,
because what he says, though, is that I must actually kill even more
to make sure we get to this era of peace, and then I will
give it up forever. Yeah, so who wants to fill in details?
I missed names so that we don't just keep saying the woman the big bed.
Yeah, is it Tommy? Three syllables Tomy. Yeah. And then
like Cito is there? Who's in all the other stories? He's like a
large Well maybe it's not in all the other stories. In the first one
that yeah, he's the cup Okay, Yeah. How many have you seen,
by the way, just the first, the three or the three?
You've seen all three of those? One? Oh yea yeah? Oh,
so the final. It's so confusing the way they made the movies and then
have because like the first, second, and third movies they made only the
first of that's basically a trilogy, and only the first of those is on
Netflix, and then they the fourth and fifth movies they made are really the
first and fifth chronologically the beginning of the Final, which actually the Final was
released before the beginning. Yeah. At the same time, yeah, I
will say at Mary's suggestion, I watched this machete style are but I think
that's the word for like the viewing order that suggested, not machete style,
the viewing order that suggested for the Star Wars movies or suggested that you watch
a New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, then the second and third prequels,
and then Return of the Jedi. So what Mary had me do was we
watched the finale, the final which is mostly about the little brother who is
introduced to this movie, and up to the point where that little brother goes
like, I'm doing this because you drove a sword into the heart of my
sister. And then Mary was like, pause, now let's go watch the
beginning. So oh wow, yeah, okay, okay, which I think
is a bad way to do it, because then everything had been spoiled for
me of that movie. But we've always spoiled it for you too, so
listeners, you may as well do that. Sure, and you can watch
different versions where maybe something different happens, who knows. Yeah, let's talk
about a couple of I think a couple of different parts of this movie that
are really interesting to talk about. Some of the ethics questions. Obviously,
I want to go into the history with Eureki, especially Paul, is the
question that I wanted to start with, and I'm auld be curious both your
thoughts on this. If I study a way of fighting and I'm not studying
anything around that. I'm just studying, Like I learned how to be a
really good swordsman, I learned how to be a really good fighter puncher.
Whatever is that by definition? Is that by definition of martial art or is
a martial arts? I think different. I would say, speaking as a
martial artist who has studied martial arts and not martial arts, I would say,
no, that's not what a martial art is. That's what a style
of fighting is. That's what a fighting system is. Right, It's a
different thing. I mean, the thing that distinguishes a martial art from a
system of fighting is like basically the word art, you know, is the
idea that is a way of something and that there is some some philosophy that
goes along with it. Now that doesn't have to necessarily be some big ethical
philosophy or whatever. But and when I say I've studied a style of fighting
that's not a martial art, which you know, some people might disagree and
take exception to and whatever I'm talking about crap magaw with a way to defend
yourself and others. But like it's it's like super practical at least the way
I was taught right, The way I was taught was like, this is
a system of fighting. This is not an art, right, right,
That doesn't mean it can't be interpreted another way. And I'm sure there's people
in the world somewhere who feel differently. Whereas when I took taekwondo, when
I studied taekwondo for for decades and became a teacher, one of the first
things like, there's a sheet of paper you get that's, like Hannah dul
said, you know, it like teaches you the numbers in Korean. It
teaches this and that, the tenets of type, like there's tenants, you
know. And then it's like there's a definition of taekwondo that's like it's more
than a way of kicking and punching. It's also a way of life and
this and that, you know. And so I would say the notion of
a martial art is that there are things that go along with the fighting style
that aren't that the fighting style is not the martial art. That is an
aspect of it basically. Well, and so I'm asking because I'm asking because
I I I'm asking because one of the things I was wondering while watching this
movie was is Kenshin a martial artist? And like, I know that there
is. I believe it's called kendo, which is a Japanese martial art of
swords. I don't know though, like in watching these movies, I don't
know if that's specifically what he is doing in terms of sword fighting or But
even without that specific idea, would you call Kenshin a martial artist? I
would absolutely, and I can offer more insight on what his exact martial art
is, but I don't know what you want to touch. I was going
to ask what they mention his style. Yeah, when he's first introduced to
Katserra, he says, oh, you use the something style Keitan mits rugirio,
which they translate to high Heaven style or something, but they never translated
in the anime. They just say mitsu or for you. Sometimes they also
like name a bunch of attacks, like there's like the final attack and he
has to ornate and then you have to like say the name of it,
and watching it has to be like, oh, it's you know it's this,
and then you know so in in true anime style, right, But
because when you're a kid and you're watching these and you play with your friends,
you want to shout out the name of the move that you're exactly exactly
because you're obviously not doing the move right, right. But I have recently
watched all of the one piece live action in which shouting out the name of
the move is a very common uh practice. Yeah, yeah, and I
mean I do know that in in kendo, actually, what is the is
men the Japanese word for head, yeah or face, right, So apparently
like there's a thing where you shout that and like do a particular overhead swing
at like at people's heads, like this is an actually a thing, right,
like, but like you say it when you do it. I have
not practiced ken do. I know nothing technical about sort of fighting. I
know that there's ken do and ken jitsu, and that like the dough versus
the ju, jitsu has a you know, a different meaning, right,
and the dough is more of a way or an art, and jitsu is
more like skill, right like technique. Yeah, and my taekwondo teacher,
taekwondo teacher, it's not like taekwon jitsu, although I don't know if they
would use that suffix exactly, but like would often talk about the difference between
the art and the way and the art in the way or you know,
the skill and the technique and that you know, if you're just practicing the
technique, like you're not really getting what we're doing in a martial arts school,
in a dojing or in a dojo and you know, right, and
it's mits Rugi is definitely the style. Like he has a confrontation with his
teacher. He's like, you know, people are suffering out there. There's
like oppression and all this bad stuff's happening, and I want to go help.
And the teacher's like, this is not what you know our martial art.
Our art is for. It's like, you know, it's for wandering
around and then slaughtering one hundred bandits to save one kid, you know.
But like and he likes to drink socking like a lot. And yeah,
but so basically I would say that, like it is very clearly in the
animation, whereas here clearly you were left with kind of an absence of that,
right, like you didn't and maybe if you watched all five movies you
get more of that. I'm not sure. Yeah, I think I think
was really wasn't sure because you know, I think that that is kind of
similar to understand. Like I was kind of thinking, like, you know,
if someone just went and started fencing for a while, you know,
not neactually even just for the sport of it, but for the like you
know, just you know, like nineteenth century English gentleman, you grow up
learning how to sword fight. Yeah, that's not necessarily a martial art in
that same kind of a way, but that certainly by the time of the
anime, when he is part of the school of the woman that he's with
and they're raising kids together, she seems to definitely be running her school as
a martial arts school of sword fighting. I was just kind of looking at
it here in this as like, is he a martial artist at this point
or is he just a very trained swordsperson. Yeah? Here, Yeah,
he's definitely a martial artist with a very specific a very specific martial art,
is how what I would say. Yeah, I just looked it up because
I was curious and keep telling Mitsurugi is as far as I can tell,
a fictional fighting style, right, yeah, in this in this universe,
but it's described as developed to allow single sam Uri to defeed numerous moost single
handedly, which obviously he does multiple times. Yeah, that makes sense,
And there's a lot of like jumping and coming down from above and then also
being able to anticipate opponents movements by reading their emotions and like like the anime
goes into it like very deeply, Like a typical episode as the series goes
on, like when there's like these really big kind of showdown fights, is
like they're facing each other, there's some dialogue and there's usually some bystanders who
are commenting on like, oh, now he has beyond godlike speed, like
how is this, you know, and talking about oh, but if he's
already wounded, can he possibly do this? And you know, and and
then there's like two or three swords strikes and it's like that's the fight,
you know, right, and Spoiler's cansion usually wins. But but yeah,
it's like there's a lot of depth about what the style is, but it
you know, it is a fictional style. And I'm only chuckling here because,
uh, recently I rewatched all of the Rocky movies and one of the
things and that kind of like to find the sports the individual sportsman cliche in
a lot of ways trope and one of the things that is constant is that
the announcers are like announcing the fight and they're often talking about, oh,
look he's using this technique and oh what a powerful right hand that was,
you know, and in a way, it's very similar to what you're talking
about. Yeah, yeah, And I was thinking about boxing in terms of
like is that a martial art? Like would you call that martial art?
And it's like, you know, you can like no, but but it
could be. You know, there's certain types of boxing that are martial arts.
Yeah, that makes sense sense, And certainly like what I was saying
before about the you know, learning defense, I definitely would think that there
were some schools of teaching that kind of fighting that would be much where it
is much more like you know, a swordsman knows to never you know,
when you're learning sort of maxims as to how to practice your life as well.
Right, Yeah, you know that that is much and and philosophy to
it, things like that. That that is much more of a martial art.
M let's shift to the history question, and Rieky, let me just
start by asking you and then I want to get into kind of wherever your
thoughts want to go. But my understanding is that you know, I I've
done a lot of reading about this from the outside that the sort of historical
legacy of uh, this period for a long time was very very positive.
You know, this you know, brought capitalism and industrialisation to Japan and brought
it into be you know, the modern nation that it was, and all
this kind of thing. But that you know, as in many countries where
there might be some thought that massive capitalist industrialization is not the best thing in
the world to happen all these countries, let alone some of the like yay
westernism. I'm painting in massive, massive generalities here, But I'm just kind
of wondering, like for you growing up or you know, from your family
or from wherever you first learned about this, when when did you first learn
about this period of history? And so what was your was it presented as
like this is a great period in Japanese history, or this is where all
went wrong, or you know, just hey, these are the thing that
happened. What was kind of your you know, however, you an approach
that, Yeah, I mean I took Japanese history, like in a Japanese
school, so like I basically learned the junior high high school ish history of
the country. Actually, the first thing I want to say about this is
the subtitles at the beginning of this movie. Did you catch that, Paul?
I did so, I don't. I don't speak Japanese, but I
can read some kanji because you know, from Chinese. And there were numerous
things that I was just like, I don't think what that is saying is
the same thing as that is saying. Well, that's not even mentioning like
certain I don't know. Again, it's not it's not going to be a
it's not going to be a one to one, yeah, of course.
But but the thing that just completely gobsmacked me was that the subtitles call it
the toku Naga Shogunate. It is Tokugawa, and that's it's not it's a
real thing, right, Like it's real history, and they just, like
I said, it's something person learns in high school. So it would be
like, you know, like we talked about Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter. If
it just said like Abraham link Corn, what the heck, how do you
get this wrong? So I, I just like it threw me off so
much at the beginning. As for your question, Matthew, impression of history,
I guess is that this, Yeah, like this was a positive The
Meiji restoration is I believe, universally viewed as a positive thing in terms of
Japanese history, and it's often presented as look at what happened two other Asian
nations. They were colonized by European countries. China, you know, went
through the whole Opium thing and like multiple rebellions and wars, and Japan maintained
its independence. We were never colonized by the West because we saw what we
needed to do and we did it. It is the narrative that I would
say that I grew up with about this period of history that makes sense.
One impression that I've gotten from just what I've read, which is much more
limited, is that like there's an idea of yes, we are going to
modernize and industrialize, but we're going to do so in like a conscious way
that's proactive, where we're trying to also preserve like our national identity and culture
and not let someone else like do that to us basically, right, like
not get colonized, not be industrialized from the outside, but be like more
in control of our own destiny. Is that, yeah, absolutely, because
like style like style of clothing wise and culture like Japan imported all of that,
and it was very in vogue to dress in a Western style and culturally
there was definitely a if you if you continue to dress in the old style
like you are, you're old, like you're you're not keeping up with the
times. One of I thought my favorite moments in the movie, which just
shows this so well, is you see a couple of women outside of a
wedding and the bride comes out in the very traditional western like white dress and
veil, and they're talking about both how strange it is, but that they're
like, oh, yeah, actually, you know, she looks good in
white like and I thought that was such a perfect illustration of what you're talking
about here of yeah, that they're they're getting used to this idea of getting
it could specifically say like, she's not in a komodo, she's in this
white dress. One one note all ad from having watched the animated I don't
know whether to call them originals or the earlier adaptation, because I think there
were the stories in the manga first, but the anime version that there's two
different discs, and the first disc has like two chapters. Then there's a
thing called historical notes, and then the second disc has two chapters and a
thing called screenwriter notes, which is specifically from the translator to English, basically
explaining, look, this is obviously the translation is not going to be perfect,
and we have to make these decisions. But what helped me is that
there was so much, so much of the story was visual, you know,
and that you know that there was a consciousness of leaving out some of
the historical details because they wanted to focus more on the characters, but also
the historical thing. I had to take a screenshot where they're talking about I
think when the Shokenate came to power in the aftermath of that conflict, I
think in like sixteen hundred have to amassed great wealth and unlimited power. It
was like, oh wow, having just met that on the other cast,
I thought, you know, well that phrase was funny for sure. What
one thing that really struck me as I was thinking about it is because,
yeah, I want to spend more time with these people talking about like why
is this going to be better than the Shogunate and and getting into those things.
And at first I was frustrated because it felt like Kenshin was being very
naive, and that he was just saying, like, you know, he
didn't seem to have this very like highly educated consciousness about what was happening.
It was just right now is bad and this next thing will be better.
But the more I thought about it, the more I felt was like,
oh no, actually that's the point, Like, yeah, probably someone like
him wasn't you know, I couldn't tell you all the ins and outs.
He just saw like, yeah, right now, people get killed and there's
no one you know, dealing with it, and there's robbery and theft and
all these terrible things, and these folks have come along and said, if
we win, it's going to be better, and you know, it makes
sense like that's I do love that when we dive all into the politics,
but I think it's probably much more realistic that, particularly in the nineteenth century,
but even today, you know, someone comes along and it's like,
hey, you think things are bad, don't worry, I'm going to make
it all better. And I I'm saying that a way that sounds very demagogic,
and I think that that's very true, but also just in general,
like you know, it is possible, I think, to be willing to
join up with something when you believe that they're going to make things better without
getting like deeply immersional all the ins and outs of the technicalities and the politics
and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, but I think
like the majority of soldiers throughout the world have like a deep understanding of the
geopolitics of all the ways in which they may or may not be deployed.
Like no, right, it's just just the idea. Oh, this is
the side that I think, you know, Yeah, I should be fighting
for. America was safe then we got attacked and we're not safe. And
even go here, you're gonna be safe again, Like yeah, that's the
that's the idea. Or like if you go here, you'll get a paycheck,
you know, and you'll you'll get education and whatever, and you know,
and and I do I feel like, you know, in this story,
we're given just like little bits of like some people are fighting because they
want to make their lives better. Kenshin is fighting because he wants to make
everyone's lives better in theory, except for you know, the lives that he's
ending. But like, you know, different people can have different motives for
the same goal, right, And I do appreciate that it's like it's a
story that doesn't tell us like necessarily like the hero's clearly right or the protagonist
is clearly right, you know. And you know, the idea of like
doing all this violence to then bring in an era of peace. It's like,
well, either it works or it doesn't, you know. And you
asked, like whether it was like a sunk cost fallacy, right, Yeah.
I asked Paul this because at some point he says, I have to
keep killing because or else all the other people I've killed will be in vain,
will will have been a waste, right, right, And like to
me, it's like, well, either that's true or it's not true.
You know. It's like, in the first place, you can decide whether
you want to be killing people to try and make the world better, or
doing something other than killing people to make the world better, or doing nothing
to make the world better. You know, like those are three options,
and what your what your assumptions are are going to determine, like which of
those options are the ones that make sense to you? You know. And
and here I think it's like half a revolution isn't isn't is like basically never
a good thing, you know. So it's like I think it's the idea
there is, like if it was a good idea in the first place,
then it's only a good thing to do if you actually do the whole thing,
whereas like if you go halfway then but he does, actually he gets
replaced as the assassin. He's no longer the assassin after that, he just
fights like some battles or whatever. The other assassin might show up in some
other No, it's definitely it's like it's there's a whole thing, okay that
they only allude to here, right, and they actually show the face of
someone who may show up somewhere else. I've been thinking about the historical rightness
of it, and like I said, because this is a Japanese story,
like written by and for a Japanese audience, I do think that it's basically
baked into the story, like implied in the story that the Meiji restoration is
correct and good right in the same way that you know, like in Hamilton,
the American Revolution is baked into the story as this is good, this
is what we have to do, and there's not too much debate about,
you know, like is this the right thing to do or not? Yeah,
so that like for a US audience, like that is the analogy I
would make in terms of the historical perspective on on whether like which side is
right m And also like maybe then you don't have to give as many details
about the context, right because it's the audience's familiar with it in a way
that like an American audience might not be. Yeah, like there's a there
was a scene in the middle, like pretty much right in the middle after
they have tried to kill Katsura, I believe, and then Tension is told
to leave Kyoto. Right there, there's like a whole series of battles and
we see kind of a long shot of Kyoto on fire and that's actually like
a very famous incident that happened amongst all these rebellions, which is yeah,
like a Japanese audience to be like, oh, I see what's going on
and we're like, Kyoto's on fire, Like what's this? Yeah, but
it would be like watching I don't know, like people throwing tea off of
a boat right right, is immediately like it's like okay, yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, that can really make sense. And I think the
point you make there is really interesting because about how like it is really assumed
that this is a good thing. First of all, this is a side
comment, but I think you think it's worth commenting on. This just gives
me one more reason of seeing how offensively, like inaccurate The Last Samurai is,
since that movie is all about the like the Meiji Restoration being this evil
capitalists who are trying to like, you know, destroy this beautiful way of
life of the Samurai and things like that. Like, so it's interesting that
that movie has the exact opposite take of what you're talking about. I'm painting
the generalities here, but it's kind of an interesting subnote here, but more
specifically for this one, I do think there's something interesting there because and tell
me if I'm wrong, because I haven't seen it for a couple of years.
But my impression is that in a way that I think makes sense to
the character, and if I understand the arc of the story in the other
in the stuff that is set after the Restoration, when he's on his own,
one of the things we're learning is Okay, maybe things are overall better
than they were during the show gun it, but this is not a perfect
time of peace when he can hang up his sword and never use it again.
There is still lawlessness, there are still outlaws. He does still have
to there's still corrupt government officials, he does still have to to take his
sword and go out and fight people to protect people a lot, and that
he doesn't do it with killing anymore. I guess what I'm saying is am
I wrong in thinking that One of the things that this is about is that
the idea of yeah, he's on the right side, but his idea of
any terrible thing I do is justified because this new era is going to be
wonderful and perfect and good is maybe the naivete of his youth, because in
the later show, what we're seeing is that it's not actually that as good
as he might have thought it was going to be. Yeah, I mean,
the thing the thing with progress is as we try to define it historically,
and it's specific to this time period in Japan. As I said,
like, one of the biggest narratives about it is that needed to modernize.
Like that's the narrative the nation has told itself in its history books, like
the nation needed to modernize in order to maintain its independence. So when we
say an era of peace, like I'm thinking of peace as a not at
war with another nation and not conquered or colonized by another nation. But I
do think that what the the follow up the anime and manga shows is that
just because a nation is at peace, there's still unrest kind of at a
local level, right because what Kenjin might be seeing is not I'm thinking in
those terms of colonization. He's thinking of people coming to my village and like
screwing with people, and that's what's still happening. Yeah, But well,
I mean that doesn't mean it's like not different though, you know what I
mean, Like, it's sure, I think the idea is that, like
everything's not perfect, but I do think there's an idea that things are overall
better, you know, that like summer, I can't just show up and
just kill someone because like they feel like it, you know, and just
like oh, yeah, this person insulted me or whatever, you know,
and and that like people that it's that it's different, you know, and
and and a lot of the like he's dealing with smaller scale issues, you
know, most of the time. Most of the time there's there's a whole
big plot in the second and third films, which are really the third and
fourth chronologically, which I think the two of you have not watched. Correct,
you've watched all five, Matthew, I've seen four and a half.
Oh okay, okay, Yeah, so there's maybe a larger kind of thing
going on there. But like the the point being like I don't I also
don't feel like he was necessarily like this is justified and like righteous. Like
I feel like the character's perspective, which is I mean, I'll say,
is a lot of conjecture because like, dude, don't say a lot of
words, like you know, And I've seen his performance described as like too
stoic, and I'm like, I feel like, if you're gonna describe this
character this portrayal as too stoic, like I feel like you kind of don't
understand the character, but like maybe like too stoic for my taste, I
can that's fine, you know, but like I feel like that's who this
is. And it felt a lot of what's going on in terms of his
emotions or his point of view is unexpressed and implied. And but my my
take is more that like it's not like he's like this is the righteous whatever.
It's like that he feels like this is necessary, you know, right,
this is the only way that we're going to get to a world that
it's like people can And to me, that's the point of this movie,
right, is that like he's doing all this killing to try and make the
rold a better place for like peasants, for for everybody, right for And
in the in the animated you find out that he actually grew up as a
farmer, like when he was really little, you know, but like then
he actually is a farmer for like six months to a year however long for
like a year, you know, and because and is happy that way,
living that way, in relative peace for a period of time, you know,
right. And so to me, that's kind of like his journey is.
You know, it's not that just that he he falls in love with
someone who he has deeply harmed, you know, by killing her fiance.
Like that's that's a big deal, and you know, and then he falls
in love with her and you know, like you say, a very chaste
way, which like is fine with me, you know, like that I
don't like a lot of romances, and I definitely don't like a lot of
like tragic doomed romances, but like this is just one that works for me.
Oh, I just mean that, like there's not a bunch of sex
scenes and heat. And what I more meant is that, like before they
go off to the cabin, you can tell there's something there, but they
don't. They don't have their actual first kiss and then that until they're off
in the cabin. Yeah, but yeah, no both. I mean Mary
described it as the relationship with the Stoics, and I like I they're both
very sort of like express things quietly, which immediately is actually watching watching it
in subtitles was perfect because so is their body language and the like yeah,
I love that, but go ahead, we you know, the three of
us have been talking about the Netflix Live Action Avatar The Last Airbender and talking
about the dialogue and just like the over explanation of things through dialogue. And
one of the things that I like about this story, especially from the main
character, is that he doesn't talk a lot, but he does some amazing
acting in those moments. I mean, at the end of this movie,
the exhaust exhaustion on his face when he's finally like it's over, and I
think that's all he says, like it's over. Auta or something like that,
and it's just like, but his acting is so good and that you
just feel it well, especially because I mean I have a fairly different take
on it, at least than Paul what you're saying in terms of my understanding
of it. We'll get to what the take is pacific. I'll say what
is posifically, but then I alway want to take this point about his acting
is pacificly, yeah, because to me, this feels mostly about regret and
about that he he had to make these great sacrifices and do a lot of
things that he really didn't feel great about, especially as he learned more about
what was happening in order to reach this goal. And I don't think that
he's like, oh my god, now I was all wrong. I never
should have done those things. But I think he's still living with the guilt
is too simple a word, but I think it's kind of My point is
if I feel like the character is incredibly conflicted, and part of in the
newer stuff we've always gotten the sense of he is very conflicted about his past
and thinks he was doing the right thing, but also has a lot of
regrets and a lot of like mixed feelings about that, and I think we
have somewhat different takes on where that winds up. But to me, that's
I think the point is not supposed to be that they're saying, here's what
he feels. It can be summarized in one sentence. It's that the writing
and the acting really gives this feeling of a person who incredibly conflicted about an
incredibly complex, nuanced situation and time. And to me, that's a real
in the same way that I kind of love, you know, like other
movies where we can walk away with different feelings about it. I love the
uncertainty about it. I love that he doesn't have a let me tell you
exactly how I feel about the past moment? Yeah was it all worth It
wasn't all worth it? Good man? Oh god, Yeah, well it
was all worth it, I mean for him. So I do I feel
like he regrets me specifically, you mean killing right and killing people? I
mean, because that's the question that's put to him is can you kill enough
people to bring peace? Like? Is that the way to bring peace?
And I it was funny because here we're kind of on the flip side of
conversations. You guys have been having with me about Avatar in that I feel
like I've become kind of the blood thirsty one the three of us that I
I have definitely become more okay with the idea that violence is sometimes necessary as
a way of working, you know, to end political oppression or things like
that. It is still not what I want necessarily, but I'm more okay
with it than I was in the past when I've said I'm just strictly,
like, you know, non violent. And I felt like in this movie
he was really wrestling with I thought like I was more okay with the things
that he wanted to do than the movie was. Was. Hmm. It's
interesting because I so I want to just to part briefly to talk about this
as a prequel m because like, I feel like this is exactly the type
of story that I feel like. I don't know what I would think if
I just saw it in a vacuum. I'm actually not totally sure. This
might have been the first tension I ever saw the animated because it's called the
beginning. I start at the beginning. No, it's called trust and then
betrayal, which is a lot more on the news nose than any of the
dialogue, but you know it's it's Samurai x Ronny Kenshin, trust and then
betrayal, like it's my wife has all of the like a bunch of the
DVDs, right, and so she showed him to me like over twenty years
ago and these two or this one, but what is here the beginning I
remember watching and then also basically the beginning of I think the second movie of
the three movies, which I think is the first movie that you haven't seen,
Riki. I'm not sure, but like but like so I'm trying to
remember like whether I had seen this just in a vacuum or whether I'd actually
seen but it functions as a prequel, that's the point, right, This
is a diversion. You can just yeah anyway, but like so you already
know that it works out to an extent, right you know that he hangs
up the sword or flips it around basically, right, you know that he's
going to go around being a wanderer and using a reverse blade sword and not
killing and that that's like some of the this and so this is more like
it's you know, it's one of those prequels that it's less about like Okay,
what happened before that his character go from being you know, but Tuosi
to like to to you know, kenshit, you know Kimura like Wendy.
Why did he become this way? And and see that's very intricate, and
that this may be it, maybe that I'm misremembering the original story because I
haven't seen it for a couple of years, and I think I never saw
it as much as you did. And also while I saw a good deal
of the I think I saw most of season one and like part of season
two of the anime, I haven't seen anywhere near all of it, but
I did see those original movies, and what I remember is that he is
very much something very different, which is that he he wanted to hang up
the sword entirely, but he kept feeling like he had to take it back
down. And the compromise he was going to make is that he wasn't going
to kill anymore. And in shirt five seconds of me saying that hitting someone
in the head with a large piece of iron, no matter if it's sharp
or not, is often going to cause fatality, but we'll put that aside
for the moment. Yeah, super irrelevant, But I just I just had
to did you tend to throw it that I understand. I think relevant,
but in a different way. Yeah, we'll do a full episode on it.
To the story, it's not I mean two okay, put a pin
in that and there can be an episode of He's asked you to accept something
that I don't think you can accept, is what I mean about it being
relevant. But so I think there's an important point here in terms of the
idea of that I'm trying to figure out how this wouldn't be a whole hour
conversation. But basically so the whole like searching for a third way, right,
not wanting to kill the you know, certain character who's the main villain.
Like, to me, that is kind of like a it's a aspra.
It's like an aspirational the idea that it is always worthwhile to try to
find a nonviolent solution. And where you were saying earlier that you have become
more comfortable with the idea that sometimes perhaps violence is the only way that a
particular form of oppression is going to end. I feel that too, And
to me, it it depends like the story itself, to me is kind
of what dictates whether I feel like killing a lot of people or never killing
anyone is like the answer, you know, and like and how I view
characters who do go around killing a lot of people as opposed to characters who
go around not killing anyone. And this character is both of those but in
very different contexts. And I like the contrast. And I don't feel like
the story itself is like looked at as a whole, like the whole character
story to me is kind of basically it's more posing the question and letting the
viewer just have our own feelings and thoughts about it, rather than having a
viewpoint yes, this is right, this is right. I think the tangent
I was trying to stop myself from go whatever that we're on now, but
I want to pull us back from I think it's a different point. I
fully agree with everything you just said, and I think if it's framed as
I used to be intentionally killing people now, I am going to do as
much as I can to fight in a non lethal manner, recognizing that sometimes
people will die. But then I'm trying is to me very different from I'm
going to use violence that in any world should be occasionally lethal. But because
I say I'm not going to kill people that means I haven't killed I find
that whole idea just so fundamentally unbelievable that it just throws me. But like
that that's what your main point though, I think that that's kind of what
I'm saying is to me, I love I think that is a major change.
But I felt like what this movie was saying was this is this is
a big part of why because he thought he did kill all these people and
it did bring about something better, but also it isn't perfect and there are
still problems and look at and and that part of where he was coming from
was this idea of like, I'm killing the bad people, but then one
of the people he killed was this decent guy who just wanted to get married,
and like that that this is a story of showing all the reasons why
he doesn't have the he doesn't have the clearness of mind that he did during
this movie, and therefore no longer kills, no longer cuts up. It's
kind of more where I what I what I what I was understanding it to
be. M Yeah, I guess I feel like he already was kind of
of the feeling like this is the thing I'm going to do and then I'm
going to stop doing this, you know, yeah, directly, yeah yeah.
And for like he's involved with like Tomoy, you know, well,
that's one of the most fascinating things about his character in this one, and
the way that he is acted is that he starts off the movie looking exhausted
of fighting and killing. Yeah, and he never enjoys it. He's he's
never I mean, like a lot of other fighting anime, I feel like
the main character to some degree like enjoys how powerful they are or enjoys fighting
specifically, like like Dragonball, Goku just likes to fight, not to inflict
violence on other people, but he enjoys being strong and wants other people to
be strong and fight against him. So like this this character is like very
different from a lot of other anime protagonists, specifically like fighting ones in that
regard and that he just like never seems to enjoy what he's what he's doing
fighting. Yeah yeah, yeah, Like like I think from the beginning he
views violence as a tragic act basically, yeah yeah, yes. And and
even when he fights with reverse blade sword, he's like he doesn't want to
fight that even, you know. Yeah, it's like he's like I'm not
going to kill you, but I don't even want to fight you, you
know. Yeah, And it's and the tragedy of his character is like how
good he is at fighting? Right, He's like he's the best in the
world at a thing he doesn't really want to do. And and there's a
line in the animation where what's his name, uh Izuka? He where he
the who's the other spy you know, who's collaborating where he says like,
oh, are you going to be bored you know, out in the mountains
or whatever doing whatever? And he's like, I don't kill people for fun,
like, you know, Like what do you mean bored? Like I'm
bored of this. I don't want to do this. I'm just doing this
because I think it's And he gives one line. He doesn't give this whole
explanation, you know, but to me, the implication is like, yeah,
it's like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not having
a good time here, I'm just doing something I think I have to do,
you know that I think is going to make the world better. But
like, I mean, one thing I love so much about his story in
general, but especially in this movie, is that he has this horrible experience
of killing this guy the night before his wedding, and we learned even more
about that that one of the reasons why he first was taken on as a
student was because he just had so much like he kept refusing to die in
hard situations or no, was it his teacher who I can't remember? Was
it he who? I'm sorry, I'm sorry again. My memory for details
is not the best. Write now, the guy before the wedding who didn't
want to die. Yeah, we learn in this that he is like I
have to keep living, I have to keep living. Hits him really hard
because of something in his past. I can't remember if it's because of his
story or the story of one of his mentors. That was definitely in the
movie, Right, am I misremembering this? I don't. It could have
been. I watched some of it without the subtitles and like, and then
then I went back into that. But I also watched two different versions of
the same story, like back to back. There's definitely he definitely had this
like I don't want to die thing when he was little and then he didn't
die, and like there is like an unwillingness to give up kind of yeah,
yeah, I'm not sure about the details, but like he definitely that
experience that yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy resonated with it even
before he learned more about him. It's like there was this it haunted him
already. Yeah. And my point is, I think in a lot of
movies that would have been the turning point and he would have sworn that that's
the last person he was going to kill. But he doesn't. And what
he says of I'm going to stop, I have to keep killing, like
is when he's telling that story to the to the person who who he doesn't
know is the wife of the person he killed, but or the fiance.
But yeah, I I love his story so much because it isn't simple,
because it's not he he did something and they changed in one or eighty degrees.
He was different. It's you know, it's an evolution, and he
he was doing things that he didn't love for a cause that he believed in,
and now he's doing things that are a little better for a cause.
You know. It just it's complicated. Yeah. To me, it's like
I appreciate it because I feel like sometimes character development, character changes, a
character arc is like somebody going from being one character to suddenly basically being a
different character because they had some singular experience or whatever. But like, I
feel like he's the same character throughout. He just gains some deeper understanding about
some things and some some more understanding about like what it actually even means means
to have a happy life, because he has one for like a minute,
you know. And and then changes his behavior from killing a lot of people
to not killing anyone. But like his in some ways, I think his
outlook doesn't necessarily fundamentally change. It's you know. The thing that gets me
is that he accidentally kills a boy m and makes this vow to stop killing,
right, yeah, to cuts her. He's like, I'm done,
But then he's like, no, we still have we still have a little
bit more to do. And then he goes he goes to the final battle
and kills a bunch of people. Yeah, And and there's something so interesting
about that, because like that should be the moment, right, it's like,
oh, no, I've killed the woman I love. I'm gonna stop
killing. Like that That's basically what he says. But then he continues on
because he believes so much in this mission. Yeahright, And what you were
saying, Paul, like that that he doesn't change. I guess like that
he he has been a constant, and it feels like the other characters change
their views on him, whether it's Tamoil or k like they start to see
him differently or like understand something fundamental about him that they didn't previously. And
that's that's the character development is like, Yeah, yeah, the protagonist doesn't
change, the other characters understandings of the protagonists change. Yeah. It's just
like a fascinating way to tell a story, I think. I mean,
it's a character arc, it's not a character right turn you know. Yeah,
there's so much more I want to talk about. I think we're probably
going to revisit the subject at least one more time because I definitely want to
talk about the last movie then, and we'll kind of maybe do an overview
of the character. But unfortunately I'm under time constraint. I'm going to go
right now. Listeners, we want to know your feedback. What do you
think? Send us thoughts all that's in the show notes, send us become
members five dollars a month, all the great things. Riky, your last
thoughts on this? It's a beautiful tale, beautifully visually shown, and surprisingly
deep. I think for like kind of how little happens or like we're talking
about like how little the character changes. Just talking with YouTube right now,
Like I'm filled with so many more questions and thoughts that I need to go
sit on them on my own. So thank you for that. Yeah,
I would be honest, I didn't really have a wonderful time watching the movie.
I enjoyed a lot of it. I think it was very powerful the
way it would it would be like so much as told in non verbal but
I also found it very dull. For at one point, I think there
was like thirty seconds between every line of dialogue for good like fifteen minutes or
more. Yeah, and not Mike to movie. But yeah, all this
is like, oh I want to watch it again. I'm like, do
what? No, I just love talking about it. But it is a
is a great movie told an artistic style that is not my particular fancy,
but it's still very a very good example of that style. Yeah, I
would say I absolutely love the movie. I think it's my favorite prequel,
the only prequel favorite prequel movie, and the only prequel that I like more
than this prequel is the prequel series two Rogue one and or and And this
movie does so many things that I usually often hate and like rage quit things
for, but it does them in a way that does not feel manipulative to
me. It just feels it feels very naturalistic. And just like I love
the part where nothing's happening in quotes because so much is happening in my feeling
of watching the movie, you know, like the scene where he picks up
the huge dikon, you know, I think that's what he's got there,
and he's like so happy, and it's like that's like almost the only time
we ever see the character smile, because he just like grew a giant radish.
And I think the actor Takarusato, like does an amazing job. He
also did almost all the stunts. I think most of the characters did almost
all the stunts. All the scenes are shot in like one take, not
okay, that's an exaggeration, but they do a lot of scenes like one
take, like just trying to have the flow. And one thing I really
enjoy is just how different it feels from like a Hollywood movie. Yes,
and that's not a slight on Hollywood. Movies necessarily. It's just like most
of what I see are Hollywood movies, and watching movies that are not made
in Hollywood is often a good reminder that It's like, that's not the only
way things can be. That's not the only way you can tell the story.
And I feel like this is a beautifully told story of a simple story
of vengeance declined, is what I would sum it up, because I think
the story here is really like Tomoy's story, like that's she's not visibly the
protagonist, but like her journey of being miserable and seeking only vengeance and actually
becoming happy and then deciding to actually save the person who she was attempting to
seek vengeance on. I think it's a really interesting story. You know.
Yeah, I'm very sorry we didn't get to talk about her story because I
think it's fascinating and probably will be a part two or a follow up there.
And I'll just say last and I was like, I made a joke
at the beginning about how the fact that she's the spy and the fact that
he accidentally kills her are very tropy and are very predictable. But I also
agree that the way it I thought her actual death was kind of irolly,
but like her being the spy, I thought was done in a way that,
yes, it's very much a trope, would also fit perfectly, and
I think because it didn't do a lot of Hollywood manipulative things really worked for
me. Yeah. Also he's blinded at the end. I'm not sure if
that. Yeah. No, all right, thank you both so much.
Thank you to all our listeners. You're awesome. I gotta go.