WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:19.480 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about 2 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:24.120 Kenshin the Beginning. Myself, Paul, and Riki had a lot of fun 3 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.359 the last couple of weeks. Really the last week it just felt like longer 4 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:31.120 because we had four episodes in four days talking about Avatar the Last air Mender, 5 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:34.479 and it's gotten this a remembering how much the three of us really enjoy 6 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.039 our conversations. But also I think it got a lot of us thinking about 7 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:44.240 anime they get translated into television and also just martial arts stuff and things like 8 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:48.479 that, and so it is possible that some combination of us will be talking 9 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:52.399 about one piece at some point on this podcast. But it also reminded us 10 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:57.320 that we had not finished out the Kenshin movies, the Rroni Kenshin movies that 11 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.840 we've done a couple episodes about in the past, and today talking about one 12 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.400 of the last two. They were released at the same time. Uh we 13 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.920 Ronni Kenchin the Beginning, and then the last one is the finale. Today 14 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.680 we're talking specifically about the Beginning, and Riki is laughing, I think because 15 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:15.040 of my pronunciation, but I'm not sure. But Riki, how are we 16 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:19.200 doing today, I'm laughing because yes, I looked up the releases and I 17 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:23.319 think there's five movies live action movies total, and as you just mentioned, 18 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:29.760 these two were released in Japan together in theaters, and it's the beginning and 19 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:38.680 the finale, right, it's the story. It's the beginning and the finals 20 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.400 of the English titles. In terms of this one we're talking about today, 21 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:52.560 I've never more desired a backstory to my backstory. It's very fair like this 22 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:59.120 movie is the backstory to the primary story of the anime and manga, and 23 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.680 yet we're still thrown right into it and he's already a sword master and we're 24 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.959 kind of like, how how'd you get so good? My friend? Yeah, 25 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:14.800 so funny story. I watched the animated movie or movies, depending on 26 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.199 how you look at it. I guess there's like four chapters and it's in 27 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:24.400 two DVD sets and anyway, and it is what this is adapted from, 28 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:29.719 although I guess that's originally adapted from the manga, so how you however you 29 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:38.800 want to see it, And it starts off with Shinta in this caravan who 30 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:45.840 get attacked by bandits and then everybody gets killed. He's protected by these women 31 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:51.039 who then get killed, and then this sword master shows up and kills everybody, 32 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.560 and then Shinta buries everybody, and the sword master comes back to see 33 00:02:55.560 --> 00:03:00.520 that he's buried everybody, and it's like, I see that you've buried all 34 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.759 of you know, the the enemies along with like your fallen debt, like 35 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.159 your friends and family, and Shinta's like, well, they're all dead bodies, 36 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.919 so I buried them all. Also, that wasn't my friends and family. 37 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.560 Those were slavers who had kidnapped me and whatever. And then it's like 38 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:22.159 Shinta is two week a name for a swordsman. I will call you Kenshin. 39 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:29.719 And then then there's like five minutes of them training and and then there's 40 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:36.280 like a little more so in the animated like version, like that montage we 41 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.439 do, we get a proper training montage, and the entire story is kind 42 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:45.800 of bookended by this proper training montage in the beginning, and then a proper 43 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:51.520 you know, killing montage at the end instead of like a single battle scene. 44 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:53.280 Let's back up a little bit because I'm guessing that a lot of our 45 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:57.039 listeners boilers for the animated by the way, Sorry, yeah, this is 46 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.599 gonna be all the spoilers, and I'm hoping some of you have the movie. 47 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:02.879 If not, I do recommend you doing so, or at least seeing 48 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.800 some of the Kenshin stories. This is not my favorite of the Kenchin movies, 49 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.520 but I do think that they're all very good, and some of them 50 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.439 are particularly wonderful. I'm not a huge fan of the anime, but many 51 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.680 many people are, and I think I definitely can tell why we start though, 52 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:21.240 just to help catch people up. Can what do you give? Just 53 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:28.160 kind of like a sixty second explanation of the overall character, and then we 54 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.879 can talk about this specific movie. But just like if someone asks you, 55 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:32.519 like, who is ru Roni Kenshin? What are they? What are these 56 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:44.279 movies and TV shows about? Well, let's see, he's a he's a 57 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:50.160 well so, like we've been saying, this is his backstory to the anime 58 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:59.279 and manga in that he is a a wandering Droni. It's not the name 59 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.480 for like Ronian that she might be more familiar with. He's a wandering warrior 60 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:13.040 who has forsaken killing, and in the primary storyline he uses us what is 61 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:19.600 sakabato the reverse sword, so his katana the front part of the katana is 62 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:24.920 not a blade. It's blunt and his blade is on the backside, which 63 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:29.600 is reverse from katana normal katana and doesn't make much sense, but that's that's 64 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.000 how he fights because he has decided to no longer kill people or in the 65 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:39.560 Japanese to cut people imply and kill him. And he goes on like these 66 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:46.560 adventures and fades people. In Meiji era Japan, the period right after the 67 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:53.120 nation of Japan was reopened to the world forcibly reopened by the American ships of 68 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:58.240 commodore perry and went through a transition period. So this is like after that, 69 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:05.240 and there's there's some amount of chaos and banditry in the world in Japan, 70 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:11.240 and he is going around just helping ordinary people and stopping the bandits and 71 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:15.959 stopping some of the criminal elements who are who are trying to capitalize on the 72 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:19.800 world, you know, being open to them now weapons trades, drug trades, 73 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:25.240 etc. Yeah, it's so for those who don't know too much with 74 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:29.199 that history, this is in like the eighteen seventies and it's a pretty chaotic 75 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.839 time. As Rigu was saying, it's the establishment of a national government and 76 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.879 a much more sort of Western style government when it had been very futile and 77 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:45.279 disorganized with the showguns kind of running everything, and that war is the background, 78 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.160 but then really comes into the foreground during this movie. Paul was just 79 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:55.439 I'm sorry, I just want I would say that it wasn't disorganized, like 80 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:03.240 the Tokugau baka Fu Sugarnate was like incredibly organized and centralized, right, but 81 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:12.120 it was deemed I mean, people decided a bunch of people decided that that's 82 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:18.040 not what Japan needed as a nation to confront the world powers at that time, 83 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.839 and then that they needed to modernize, and a lot of the elements 84 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:27.120 of the shogunate were against that. They were more traditionalists, so that there 85 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:31.759 was this period of revolution and uprising and yes, like that's chaotic, but 86 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:38.279 I would say that the Bakfu the shogunate was the stabilizing force. And that's 87 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.759 one of the arguments that several of the characters in this movie make is that 88 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.959 the shogunate maintained peace for three hundred years and now you're causing this chaos, 89 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:54.839 right, but also like it was peace through oppression, right, Like there 90 00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:01.480 was a rigid cast system and sure, absolutely you know something that I wouldn't 91 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:03.639 call peace, but that people call peace right, you know, like I 92 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.399 would say, we don't have peace in the United States. But one of 93 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.879 the things that I think is very ironic, and I'm a political junkie, 94 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.800 and so I always wish the show would explore this more the movies, and 95 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.040 it doesn't really, but it does touch on it some. Is that like 96 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.639 if any of you have seen in the movie The Last Samurai, which is 97 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.000 by no means an accurate depiction, it's it's Dances with Samurai, very much 98 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.399 in the Dances with Wolves, it's the white saving story, but it's about 99 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.519 this same period of history, but from the other side, because part of 100 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:41.759 the modernization was an attempt to really get rid of the samurai culture and which 101 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:45.519 through one set of eyes, was very you know, traditional and beautiful and 102 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:48.879 powerful and helped to maintain peace, and through another set of eyes, was 103 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.720 very cast based and rigid and was often very corrupt. And you know, 104 00:08:56.279 --> 00:09:00.279 the books and books and history on who's right or wrong in that. But 105 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:01.919 what I thought was really interesting about the show in these movies, and it's 106 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:09.759 actually called out here, is so the the anti showgunate forces the people who 107 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.960 are trying to do restore the emperor, hence it's called the Maji restoration. 108 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:20.639 Are our anti samurai and our hero Kenshin is a samurai and is described by 109 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.759 that by many people, or at least that's many the word many people use 110 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:30.639 for him, and it's fighting for the emperor for the Maji forces, which 111 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:33.720 I'm sure he is a part of the history. It makes sense, but 112 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:35.120 it's one of the things where I'm like that, I want you to focus 113 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.840 on that, tell me more about what's happening there, But that's not really 114 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.080 what this movie is about. Yeah, like I well, go ahead. 115 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.879 It's it's complicated because when you say when you just say samurai like that, 116 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:58.759 that evokes a certain image right of the sorts the swordsman. But as as 117 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:05.440 we mentioned earlier, like it's a whole cast system, so people, Yeah, 118 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:13.159 it's it's complicated because everyone fighting essentially with swords are samurai because that those 119 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:18.120 are the people who were allowed to carry swords and who were trained in the 120 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.679 art. And then at the end of this movie, like we see the 121 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:28.320 battle and there are like regular conscripted soldiers with rifles, with guns or with 122 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:35.759 like spears I think was another weapon they use. So that that was part 123 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.399 of what was going on, was like breaking down the cast system. And 124 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.519 yeah, like there were samurai who were interested in breaking down the cast system, 125 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:52.039 often because they're like families or their their regions were less powerful, so 126 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:56.279 they were seeking power by destroying by breaking down the system, they kept them 127 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.559 down low. And so well, don't I don't know if we're going to 128 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.000 get to this now, but one of the characters in the story is a 129 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:18.000 real person mhmm, the basically the guy who is Kenshin's boss in this Yeah, 130 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:24.399 kots what's his name? Katsako was a real person, and he was 131 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:31.960 one of the basically the three founders of the Meiji Restoration, And so like 132 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:37.919 everything going on here is in the backdrop of real history and the fact that 133 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:45.759 they have a real historical figure who participated in all this kind of being the 134 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:50.440 puppet master, so to speak. I found that to be the most interesting 135 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.840 part of this particular movie, and the way that he is using Kenshin as 136 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:01.679 an assassin to kill his enemies, as it's just like, I don't know, 137 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.360 there are other stories that get told like this in like real history. 138 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:13.120 I think we see stuff in like the American Revolution with the three Musketeers, 139 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.960 right the French Revolution, where it's like, well, like here here's the 140 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.799 story of like these heroes that we don't talk about in history because we can't, 141 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:28.840 right, Yeah, I mean, how many stories are told as like 142 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.759 there was a real life plot to assassinate history, to assassinate Hitler. There 143 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.639 were numerous plots like that, and then that's been fictionalized one hundred different times 144 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.200 in a hundred different ways. There have been numerous stories about, you know, 145 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.919 fictionalized people set against the background of our own American Civil War, some 146 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.759 of which are incredibly historic, some of which show Abraham Lincoln killing vampires. 147 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.360 So like there's a wide range, and I will say that I'm not sure 148 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:03.480 which that particular story does more violence to American Civil War history or vampire mythology, 149 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.559 but it clearly is violet to both. But that's another story from their 150 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.480 time. Let me kind of try to do a quick summary of this movie, 151 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.279 and please film me in with some of the details and stuff. So, 152 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.919 as we said, this is now sat a couple of years before the 153 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.000 main movies and the show and things like that. And one thing that was 154 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:31.360 established in the earlier movies that I don't know if he established in the anime 155 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.519 as well, But please tell me one way or the other is that at 156 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.919 some point during the war, one of the people he was supposed to assassinate, 157 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.159 he kind of did it at the guy's bachelor party, Like not in 158 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.960 the American sense today, but it's like a guy with a bunch of his 159 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.720 friends. His friends had taken him out drinking because he was going to get 160 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.159 married the next day. And Kenchin had to kill this guy, and this 161 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.320 guy just refused to die, and he kept getting back up and trying to 162 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.879 keep fighting because he has. He kept saying, I have something to live 163 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:07.759 for. Watching it happen here, there's a part of me that wonders, 164 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.120 why doesn't he just shut the hell up and let Kenshin walk away, Like 165 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.960 stop picking up your sword, dude, just be okay. But putting that 166 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.000 aside, like we've known for a while that that that incident was a big 167 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.720 part of what sort of made Kenshin like feel really bad about this time and 168 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:33.360 like want to not do this again. And this movie goes into more detail 169 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.919 about how that happened, but he's mostly set still after that has happened, 170 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.919 and he is still working for I'm sorry, what was the name of that 171 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:46.080 guy who was working for the Patra Thank you. I was watching in subtitles, 172 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.000 so I didn't hear it all necessarily. I mean I was hearing it, 173 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:56.840 but I couldn't pick out the individual words. And he's doing assassinations. 174 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:03.120 The shogunate forces are are trying to really on stopping him. They come after 175 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.639 him a few times, and it's decided that he should go off into the 176 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:11.519 woods to kind of be at this cabin with a woman who has been spending 177 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.559 more and more time around their gang, and he's kind of adopted her, 178 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.840 and there's a little bit of like are they is he kind of seeing her 179 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.200 the little sisters, He kind of seeing her as like there's a potential flirtation 180 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:26.720 there. It's very very chaste. But the two of them go off together 181 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:31.559 and spend this time, you know, basically it's them against the world, 182 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.799 hiding from the world. It's beautifully done. The two kind of fall for 183 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.639 each other and they start to build the romance together and start to build, 184 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:43.480 you know, a little bit of the life together. But all the time 185 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:48.399 he is still in contact with one of his friends from back in Kyoto. 186 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:54.480 I think it is. And we learned that there's a spy in that organization 187 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:56.960 and part of why they have ways that until they figure out a spy. 188 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.559 Coming as a great shock to anybody who has never seen a movie before, 189 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:07.399 we do learn that the woman he is with is herself the spy. That 190 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:15.000 there is that major spoilers here, that she has been trying to target him 191 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.200 from the beginning, because as we learned, she is the woman who the 192 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:23.039 guy who was killed was going to marry. So she has this real like 193 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:29.120 vengeance thing against Kenshin, but of course she has really fallen for him, 194 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.399 and and and as these kind of things play out, she kind of tries 195 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.320 to maybe stop it, but doesn't have a chance to. Kensin walks into 196 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:42.759 a trap and they almost kill Kenshin. Apparently ewoks have been flown in because 197 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.000 it's the very ewok kind of you know, just all the sorts of forest 198 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.919 things happening. That's kind of vers in the woods. Yeah, ewoks, 199 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:56.879 you know, or like what's it called, something like via Kong like you 200 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:03.480 know, yeah, it jump into ewosis. That just shows how formative return 201 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.119 of the Jedi is in your that's very fair. I'm probably being horribly insulting, 202 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.400 and I apologize. Yeah, it is a very well done set of 203 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:17.640 bombs and traps that almost kill Kenshin, and he's forced into a big a 204 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.599 battle with a big bed, and again is a huge shock to nobody who's 205 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:29.000 ever seen a movie before. The woman runs out and tries to say to 206 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:34.640 save save Kenshin, and in so doing does save Kenshin. And Kenshin gets 207 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:40.400 a final sword blow in when he's blinded and winds up killing both the big 208 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:47.880 Bed and her. And we learned then that that is he had initially been 209 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:49.519 saying to him like, hey, do you need to keep fighting? Do 210 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:55.720 you need to keep fighting and challenging him because he kept saying that, you 211 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.279 know, he really does believe in this idea that the Maji, the Maji 212 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.079 you are going to, you know, bring about this new era of peace 213 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.640 and goodness and everything. And she's saying like, how can you kill your 214 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:11.640 way to peace? And the end of the movie is him kind of recalling 215 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.720 her words and realizing, like, you know, I I will not kill 216 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:21.119 kill it, and well he he He doesn't quite give it up though, 217 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:22.680 because what he says, though, is that I must actually kill even more 218 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.640 to make sure we get to this era of peace, and then I will 219 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:33.240 give it up forever. Yeah, so who wants to fill in details? 220 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.160 I missed names so that we don't just keep saying the woman the big bed. 221 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:52.960 Yeah, is it Tommy? Three syllables Tomy. Yeah. And then 222 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.240 like Cito is there? Who's in all the other stories? He's like a 223 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:00.200 large Well maybe it's not in all the other stories. In the first one 224 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:06.000 that yeah, he's the cup Okay, Yeah. How many have you seen, 225 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:10.559 by the way, just the first, the three or the three? 226 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:12.920 You've seen all three of those? One? Oh yea yeah? Oh, 227 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.880 so the final. It's so confusing the way they made the movies and then 228 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.839 have because like the first, second, and third movies they made only the 229 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.160 first of that's basically a trilogy, and only the first of those is on 230 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:30.920 Netflix, and then they the fourth and fifth movies they made are really the 231 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.799 first and fifth chronologically the beginning of the Final, which actually the Final was 232 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:40.359 released before the beginning. Yeah. At the same time, yeah, I 233 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:45.519 will say at Mary's suggestion, I watched this machete style are but I think 234 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.480 that's the word for like the viewing order that suggested, not machete style, 235 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.640 the viewing order that suggested for the Star Wars movies or suggested that you watch 236 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.759 a New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, then the second and third prequels, 237 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.359 and then Return of the Jedi. So what Mary had me do was we 238 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.039 watched the finale, the final which is mostly about the little brother who is 239 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:15.440 introduced to this movie, and up to the point where that little brother goes 240 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.680 like, I'm doing this because you drove a sword into the heart of my 241 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:21.799 sister. And then Mary was like, pause, now let's go watch the 242 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:26.160 beginning. So oh wow, yeah, okay, okay, which I think 243 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.759 is a bad way to do it, because then everything had been spoiled for 244 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.920 me of that movie. But we've always spoiled it for you too, so 245 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.319 listeners, you may as well do that. Sure, and you can watch 246 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.039 different versions where maybe something different happens, who knows. Yeah, let's talk 247 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.440 about a couple of I think a couple of different parts of this movie that 248 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.039 are really interesting to talk about. Some of the ethics questions. Obviously, 249 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:52.039 I want to go into the history with Eureki, especially Paul, is the 250 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:53.720 question that I wanted to start with, and I'm auld be curious both your 251 00:20:53.759 --> 00:21:02.119 thoughts on this. If I study a way of fighting and I'm not studying 252 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:03.640 anything around that. I'm just studying, Like I learned how to be a 253 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.720 really good swordsman, I learned how to be a really good fighter puncher. 254 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:14.119 Whatever is that by definition? Is that by definition of martial art or is 255 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.200 a martial arts? I think different. I would say, speaking as a 256 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.440 martial artist who has studied martial arts and not martial arts, I would say, 257 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.200 no, that's not what a martial art is. That's what a style 258 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.440 of fighting is. That's what a fighting system is. Right, It's a 259 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.839 different thing. I mean, the thing that distinguishes a martial art from a 260 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.720 system of fighting is like basically the word art, you know, is the 261 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.200 idea that is a way of something and that there is some some philosophy that 262 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.920 goes along with it. Now that doesn't have to necessarily be some big ethical 263 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.079 philosophy or whatever. But and when I say I've studied a style of fighting 264 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:59.400 that's not a martial art, which you know, some people might disagree and 265 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:07.799 take exception to and whatever I'm talking about crap magaw with a way to defend 266 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:14.519 yourself and others. But like it's it's like super practical at least the way 267 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:15.960 I was taught right, The way I was taught was like, this is 268 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:21.319 a system of fighting. This is not an art, right, right, 269 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.160 That doesn't mean it can't be interpreted another way. And I'm sure there's people 270 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:30.200 in the world somewhere who feel differently. Whereas when I took taekwondo, when 271 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.640 I studied taekwondo for for decades and became a teacher, one of the first 272 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.400 things like, there's a sheet of paper you get that's, like Hannah dul 273 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.400 said, you know, it like teaches you the numbers in Korean. It 274 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.720 teaches this and that, the tenets of type, like there's tenants, you 275 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:47.480 know. And then it's like there's a definition of taekwondo that's like it's more 276 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:49.279 than a way of kicking and punching. It's also a way of life and 277 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:55.000 this and that, you know. And so I would say the notion of 278 00:22:55.039 --> 00:23:02.279 a martial art is that there are things that go along with the fighting style 279 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:07.200 that aren't that the fighting style is not the martial art. That is an 280 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.480 aspect of it basically. Well, and so I'm asking because I'm asking because 281 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:18.240 I I I'm asking because one of the things I was wondering while watching this 282 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:22.039 movie was is Kenshin a martial artist? And like, I know that there 283 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.640 is. I believe it's called kendo, which is a Japanese martial art of 284 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.279 swords. I don't know though, like in watching these movies, I don't 285 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.680 know if that's specifically what he is doing in terms of sword fighting or But 286 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:41.079 even without that specific idea, would you call Kenshin a martial artist? I 287 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.960 would absolutely, and I can offer more insight on what his exact martial art 288 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.039 is, but I don't know what you want to touch. I was going 289 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:53.000 to ask what they mention his style. Yeah, when he's first introduced to 290 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.960 Katserra, he says, oh, you use the something style Keitan mits rugirio, 291 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.119 which they translate to high Heaven style or something, but they never translated 292 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:10.359 in the anime. They just say mitsu or for you. Sometimes they also 293 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:12.920 like name a bunch of attacks, like there's like the final attack and he 294 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.759 has to ornate and then you have to like say the name of it, 295 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:21.559 and watching it has to be like, oh, it's you know it's this, 296 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.400 and then you know so in in true anime style, right, But 297 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:30.839 because when you're a kid and you're watching these and you play with your friends, 298 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.839 you want to shout out the name of the move that you're exactly exactly 299 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.359 because you're obviously not doing the move right, right. But I have recently 300 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.799 watched all of the one piece live action in which shouting out the name of 301 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:49.440 the move is a very common uh practice. Yeah, yeah, and I 302 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:55.319 mean I do know that in in kendo, actually, what is the is 303 00:24:55.880 --> 00:25:00.920 men the Japanese word for head, yeah or face, right, So apparently 304 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:07.279 like there's a thing where you shout that and like do a particular overhead swing 305 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.559 at like at people's heads, like this is an actually a thing, right, 306 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.079 like, but like you say it when you do it. I have 307 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.759 not practiced ken do. I know nothing technical about sort of fighting. I 308 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:25.799 know that there's ken do and ken jitsu, and that like the dough versus 309 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.839 the ju, jitsu has a you know, a different meaning, right, 310 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.920 and the dough is more of a way or an art, and jitsu is 311 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:41.720 more like skill, right like technique. Yeah, and my taekwondo teacher, 312 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.440 taekwondo teacher, it's not like taekwon jitsu, although I don't know if they 313 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.880 would use that suffix exactly, but like would often talk about the difference between 314 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.799 the art and the way and the art in the way or you know, 315 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:59.119 the skill and the technique and that you know, if you're just practicing the 316 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.279 technique, like you're not really getting what we're doing in a martial arts school, 317 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:07.920 in a dojing or in a dojo and you know, right, and 318 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.480 it's mits Rugi is definitely the style. Like he has a confrontation with his 319 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.839 teacher. He's like, you know, people are suffering out there. There's 320 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.680 like oppression and all this bad stuff's happening, and I want to go help. 321 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:26.960 And the teacher's like, this is not what you know our martial art. 322 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.519 Our art is for. It's like, you know, it's for wandering 323 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.640 around and then slaughtering one hundred bandits to save one kid, you know. 324 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:40.240 But like and he likes to drink socking like a lot. And yeah, 325 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:45.759 but so basically I would say that, like it is very clearly in the 326 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.920 animation, whereas here clearly you were left with kind of an absence of that, 327 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:56.359 right, like you didn't and maybe if you watched all five movies you 328 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.880 get more of that. I'm not sure. Yeah, I think I think 329 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.880 was really wasn't sure because you know, I think that that is kind of 330 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:07.440 similar to understand. Like I was kind of thinking, like, you know, 331 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:10.640 if someone just went and started fencing for a while, you know, 332 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.119 not neactually even just for the sport of it, but for the like you 333 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.519 know, just you know, like nineteenth century English gentleman, you grow up 334 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:21.200 learning how to sword fight. Yeah, that's not necessarily a martial art in 335 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:26.880 that same kind of a way, but that certainly by the time of the 336 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:33.720 anime, when he is part of the school of the woman that he's with 337 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.240 and they're raising kids together, she seems to definitely be running her school as 338 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:42.640 a martial arts school of sword fighting. I was just kind of looking at 339 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.279 it here in this as like, is he a martial artist at this point 340 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.400 or is he just a very trained swordsperson. Yeah? Here, Yeah, 341 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:59.000 he's definitely a martial artist with a very specific a very specific martial art, 342 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:06.240 is how what I would say. Yeah, I just looked it up because 343 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:11.799 I was curious and keep telling Mitsurugi is as far as I can tell, 344 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.920 a fictional fighting style, right, yeah, in this in this universe, 345 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:22.720 but it's described as developed to allow single sam Uri to defeed numerous moost single 346 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:30.920 handedly, which obviously he does multiple times. Yeah, that makes sense, 347 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.000 And there's a lot of like jumping and coming down from above and then also 348 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.720 being able to anticipate opponents movements by reading their emotions and like like the anime 349 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:48.119 goes into it like very deeply, Like a typical episode as the series goes 350 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.160 on, like when there's like these really big kind of showdown fights, is 351 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:56.240 like they're facing each other, there's some dialogue and there's usually some bystanders who 352 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:00.359 are commenting on like, oh, now he has beyond godlike speed, like 353 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.119 how is this, you know, and talking about oh, but if he's 354 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.920 already wounded, can he possibly do this? And you know, and and 355 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.920 then there's like two or three swords strikes and it's like that's the fight, 356 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:18.599 you know, right, and Spoiler's cansion usually wins. But but yeah, 357 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:21.519 it's like there's a lot of depth about what the style is, but it 358 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:26.960 you know, it is a fictional style. And I'm only chuckling here because, 359 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:32.880 uh, recently I rewatched all of the Rocky movies and one of the 360 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.279 things and that kind of like to find the sports the individual sportsman cliche in 361 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.119 a lot of ways trope and one of the things that is constant is that 362 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:47.119 the announcers are like announcing the fight and they're often talking about, oh, 363 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:51.519 look he's using this technique and oh what a powerful right hand that was, 364 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.319 you know, and in a way, it's very similar to what you're talking 365 00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:57.079 about. Yeah, yeah, And I was thinking about boxing in terms of 366 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.680 like is that a martial art? Like would you call that martial art? 367 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.000 And it's like, you know, you can like no, but but it 368 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:07.880 could be. You know, there's certain types of boxing that are martial arts. 369 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.640 Yeah, that makes sense sense, And certainly like what I was saying 370 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:17.519 before about the you know, learning defense, I definitely would think that there 371 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.559 were some schools of teaching that kind of fighting that would be much where it 372 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:23.839 is much more like you know, a swordsman knows to never you know, 373 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:27.680 when you're learning sort of maxims as to how to practice your life as well. 374 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:32.240 Right, Yeah, you know that that is much and and philosophy to 375 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:33.160 it, things like that. That that is much more of a martial art. 376 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:40.359 M let's shift to the history question, and Rieky, let me just 377 00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:41.400 start by asking you and then I want to get into kind of wherever your 378 00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:48.119 thoughts want to go. But my understanding is that you know, I I've 379 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.640 done a lot of reading about this from the outside that the sort of historical 380 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.200 legacy of uh, this period for a long time was very very positive. 381 00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:00.599 You know, this you know, brought capitalism and industrialisation to Japan and brought 382 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.960 it into be you know, the modern nation that it was, and all 383 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.720 this kind of thing. But that you know, as in many countries where 384 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:14.519 there might be some thought that massive capitalist industrialization is not the best thing in 385 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.119 the world to happen all these countries, let alone some of the like yay 386 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.319 westernism. I'm painting in massive, massive generalities here, But I'm just kind 387 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:26.119 of wondering, like for you growing up or you know, from your family 388 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.279 or from wherever you first learned about this, when when did you first learn 389 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.240 about this period of history? And so what was your was it presented as 390 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.839 like this is a great period in Japanese history, or this is where all 391 00:31:36.839 --> 00:31:38.039 went wrong, or you know, just hey, these are the thing that 392 00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:42.200 happened. What was kind of your you know, however, you an approach 393 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:51.720 that, Yeah, I mean I took Japanese history, like in a Japanese 394 00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:57.519 school, so like I basically learned the junior high high school ish history of 395 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.839 the country. Actually, the first thing I want to say about this is 396 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:08.240 the subtitles at the beginning of this movie. Did you catch that, Paul? 397 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.359 I did so, I don't. I don't speak Japanese, but I 398 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.359 can read some kanji because you know, from Chinese. And there were numerous 399 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:21.079 things that I was just like, I don't think what that is saying is 400 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:23.400 the same thing as that is saying. Well, that's not even mentioning like 401 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:28.000 certain I don't know. Again, it's not it's not going to be a 402 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:30.279 it's not going to be a one to one, yeah, of course. 403 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:38.799 But but the thing that just completely gobsmacked me was that the subtitles call it 404 00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:45.119 the toku Naga Shogunate. It is Tokugawa, and that's it's not it's a 405 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:49.640 real thing, right, Like it's real history, and they just, like 406 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:53.480 I said, it's something person learns in high school. So it would be 407 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:58.440 like, you know, like we talked about Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter. If 408 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:05.160 it just said like Abraham link Corn, what the heck, how do you 409 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:10.039 get this wrong? So I, I just like it threw me off so 410 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:19.759 much at the beginning. As for your question, Matthew, impression of history, 411 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:23.799 I guess is that this, Yeah, like this was a positive The 412 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:32.079 Meiji restoration is I believe, universally viewed as a positive thing in terms of 413 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:43.000 Japanese history, and it's often presented as look at what happened two other Asian 414 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:50.240 nations. They were colonized by European countries. China, you know, went 415 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:59.039 through the whole Opium thing and like multiple rebellions and wars, and Japan maintained 416 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:05.119 its independence. We were never colonized by the West because we saw what we 417 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.639 needed to do and we did it. It is the narrative that I would 418 00:34:07.679 --> 00:34:13.400 say that I grew up with about this period of history that makes sense. 419 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:19.320 One impression that I've gotten from just what I've read, which is much more 420 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:23.199 limited, is that like there's an idea of yes, we are going to 421 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:29.119 modernize and industrialize, but we're going to do so in like a conscious way 422 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:36.960 that's proactive, where we're trying to also preserve like our national identity and culture 423 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:43.360 and not let someone else like do that to us basically, right, like 424 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:47.519 not get colonized, not be industrialized from the outside, but be like more 425 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.480 in control of our own destiny. Is that, yeah, absolutely, because 426 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:59.760 like style like style of clothing wise and culture like Japan imported all of that, 427 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:06.400 and it was very in vogue to dress in a Western style and culturally 428 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:09.840 there was definitely a if you if you continue to dress in the old style 429 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.840 like you are, you're old, like you're you're not keeping up with the 430 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:19.239 times. One of I thought my favorite moments in the movie, which just 431 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.719 shows this so well, is you see a couple of women outside of a 432 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:28.840 wedding and the bride comes out in the very traditional western like white dress and 433 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.199 veil, and they're talking about both how strange it is, but that they're 434 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.400 like, oh, yeah, actually, you know, she looks good in 435 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.320 white like and I thought that was such a perfect illustration of what you're talking 436 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.440 about here of yeah, that they're they're getting used to this idea of getting 437 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:44.039 it could specifically say like, she's not in a komodo, she's in this 438 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:52.960 white dress. One one note all ad from having watched the animated I don't 439 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:58.280 know whether to call them originals or the earlier adaptation, because I think there 440 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:05.159 were the stories in the manga first, but the anime version that there's two 441 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.639 different discs, and the first disc has like two chapters. Then there's a 442 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:13.000 thing called historical notes, and then the second disc has two chapters and a 443 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:19.639 thing called screenwriter notes, which is specifically from the translator to English, basically 444 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.960 explaining, look, this is obviously the translation is not going to be perfect, 445 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.960 and we have to make these decisions. But what helped me is that 446 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.679 there was so much, so much of the story was visual, you know, 447 00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:35.320 and that you know that there was a consciousness of leaving out some of 448 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:40.840 the historical details because they wanted to focus more on the characters, but also 449 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.360 the historical thing. I had to take a screenshot where they're talking about I 450 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:51.920 think when the Shokenate came to power in the aftermath of that conflict, I 451 00:36:51.920 --> 00:37:01.400 think in like sixteen hundred have to amassed great wealth and unlimited power. It 452 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:07.119 was like, oh wow, having just met that on the other cast, 453 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.920 I thought, you know, well that phrase was funny for sure. What 454 00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.840 one thing that really struck me as I was thinking about it is because, 455 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:19.079 yeah, I want to spend more time with these people talking about like why 456 00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.840 is this going to be better than the Shogunate and and getting into those things. 457 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:28.239 And at first I was frustrated because it felt like Kenshin was being very 458 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.280 naive, and that he was just saying, like, you know, he 459 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:35.800 didn't seem to have this very like highly educated consciousness about what was happening. 460 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.079 It was just right now is bad and this next thing will be better. 461 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:40.639 But the more I thought about it, the more I felt was like, 462 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:44.960 oh no, actually that's the point, Like, yeah, probably someone like 463 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.760 him wasn't you know, I couldn't tell you all the ins and outs. 464 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.000 He just saw like, yeah, right now, people get killed and there's 465 00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:55.519 no one you know, dealing with it, and there's robbery and theft and 466 00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:00.960 all these terrible things, and these folks have come along and said, if 467 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:05.480 we win, it's going to be better, and you know, it makes 468 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:09.199 sense like that's I do love that when we dive all into the politics, 469 00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:13.719 but I think it's probably much more realistic that, particularly in the nineteenth century, 470 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:15.599 but even today, you know, someone comes along and it's like, 471 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.159 hey, you think things are bad, don't worry, I'm going to make 472 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.800 it all better. And I I'm saying that a way that sounds very demagogic, 473 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.920 and I think that that's very true, but also just in general, 474 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:31.159 like you know, it is possible, I think, to be willing to 475 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:37.119 join up with something when you believe that they're going to make things better without 476 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.639 getting like deeply immersional all the ins and outs of the technicalities and the politics 477 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:44.719 and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, but I think 478 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.000 like the majority of soldiers throughout the world have like a deep understanding of the 479 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.119 geopolitics of all the ways in which they may or may not be deployed. 480 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:54.920 Like no, right, it's just just the idea. Oh, this is 481 00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.639 the side that I think, you know, Yeah, I should be fighting 482 00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:02.440 for. America was safe then we got attacked and we're not safe. And 483 00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:07.920 even go here, you're gonna be safe again, Like yeah, that's the 484 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.639 that's the idea. Or like if you go here, you'll get a paycheck, 485 00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:15.599 you know, and you'll you'll get education and whatever, and you know, 486 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.679 and and I do I feel like, you know, in this story, 487 00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:23.800 we're given just like little bits of like some people are fighting because they 488 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:28.679 want to make their lives better. Kenshin is fighting because he wants to make 489 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.159 everyone's lives better in theory, except for you know, the lives that he's 490 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:37.320 ending. But like, you know, different people can have different motives for 491 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:44.880 the same goal, right, And I do appreciate that it's like it's a 492 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:51.280 story that doesn't tell us like necessarily like the hero's clearly right or the protagonist 493 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.880 is clearly right, you know. And you know, the idea of like 494 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:59.719 doing all this violence to then bring in an era of peace. It's like, 495 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.880 well, either it works or it doesn't, you know. And you 496 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:09.559 asked, like whether it was like a sunk cost fallacy, right, Yeah. 497 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:13.960 I asked Paul this because at some point he says, I have to 498 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:17.039 keep killing because or else all the other people I've killed will be in vain, 499 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.159 will will have been a waste, right, right, And like to 500 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.760 me, it's like, well, either that's true or it's not true. 501 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.440 You know. It's like, in the first place, you can decide whether 502 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.119 you want to be killing people to try and make the world better, or 503 00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:37.079 doing something other than killing people to make the world better, or doing nothing 504 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.360 to make the world better. You know, like those are three options, 505 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:46.280 and what your what your assumptions are are going to determine, like which of 506 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:51.800 those options are the ones that make sense to you? You know. And 507 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:57.280 and here I think it's like half a revolution isn't isn't is like basically never 508 00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:02.039 a good thing, you know. So it's like I think it's the idea 509 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:06.440 there is, like if it was a good idea in the first place, 510 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:09.400 then it's only a good thing to do if you actually do the whole thing, 511 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:15.360 whereas like if you go halfway then but he does, actually he gets 512 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.119 replaced as the assassin. He's no longer the assassin after that, he just 513 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.039 fights like some battles or whatever. The other assassin might show up in some 514 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:29.000 other No, it's definitely it's like it's there's a whole thing, okay that 515 00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:32.320 they only allude to here, right, and they actually show the face of 516 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:43.559 someone who may show up somewhere else. I've been thinking about the historical rightness 517 00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:49.159 of it, and like I said, because this is a Japanese story, 518 00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:53.199 like written by and for a Japanese audience, I do think that it's basically 519 00:41:53.960 --> 00:42:00.079 baked into the story, like implied in the story that the Meiji restoration is 520 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:05.119 correct and good right in the same way that you know, like in Hamilton, 521 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.079 the American Revolution is baked into the story as this is good, this 522 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:13.800 is what we have to do, and there's not too much debate about, 523 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:15.960 you know, like is this the right thing to do or not? Yeah, 524 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:21.719 so that like for a US audience, like that is the analogy I 525 00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:27.239 would make in terms of the historical perspective on on whether like which side is 526 00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:32.000 right m And also like maybe then you don't have to give as many details 527 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.760 about the context, right because it's the audience's familiar with it in a way 528 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:42.639 that like an American audience might not be. Yeah, like there's a there 529 00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:46.079 was a scene in the middle, like pretty much right in the middle after 530 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:53.360 they have tried to kill Katsura, I believe, and then Tension is told 531 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:59.280 to leave Kyoto. Right there, there's like a whole series of battles and 532 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:05.039 we see kind of a long shot of Kyoto on fire and that's actually like 533 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:09.639 a very famous incident that happened amongst all these rebellions, which is yeah, 534 00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:14.440 like a Japanese audience to be like, oh, I see what's going on 535 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.559 and we're like, Kyoto's on fire, Like what's this? Yeah, but 536 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:22.880 it would be like watching I don't know, like people throwing tea off of 537 00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:30.519 a boat right right, is immediately like it's like okay, yeah, yeah, 538 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.840 yeah, no, that can really make sense. And I think the 539 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.679 point you make there is really interesting because about how like it is really assumed 540 00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:42.239 that this is a good thing. First of all, this is a side 541 00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:45.719 comment, but I think you think it's worth commenting on. This just gives 542 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:53.400 me one more reason of seeing how offensively, like inaccurate The Last Samurai is, 543 00:43:53.840 --> 00:44:00.480 since that movie is all about the like the Meiji Restoration being this evil 544 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:05.159 capitalists who are trying to like, you know, destroy this beautiful way of 545 00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.679 life of the Samurai and things like that. Like, so it's interesting that 546 00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:15.199 that movie has the exact opposite take of what you're talking about. I'm painting 547 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.400 the generalities here, but it's kind of an interesting subnote here, but more 548 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.119 specifically for this one, I do think there's something interesting there because and tell 549 00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:28.280 me if I'm wrong, because I haven't seen it for a couple of years. 550 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.480 But my impression is that in a way that I think makes sense to 551 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:37.800 the character, and if I understand the arc of the story in the other 552 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.719 in the stuff that is set after the Restoration, when he's on his own, 553 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:45.639 one of the things we're learning is Okay, maybe things are overall better 554 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.519 than they were during the show gun it, but this is not a perfect 555 00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:52.039 time of peace when he can hang up his sword and never use it again. 556 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:57.039 There is still lawlessness, there are still outlaws. He does still have 557 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.480 to there's still corrupt government officials, he does still have to to take his 558 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:05.719 sword and go out and fight people to protect people a lot, and that 559 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.360 he doesn't do it with killing anymore. I guess what I'm saying is am 560 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:14.320 I wrong in thinking that One of the things that this is about is that 561 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:19.320 the idea of yeah, he's on the right side, but his idea of 562 00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:23.920 any terrible thing I do is justified because this new era is going to be 563 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:30.480 wonderful and perfect and good is maybe the naivete of his youth, because in 564 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:35.119 the later show, what we're seeing is that it's not actually that as good 565 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:40.480 as he might have thought it was going to be. Yeah, I mean, 566 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:49.519 the thing the thing with progress is as we try to define it historically, 567 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.880 and it's specific to this time period in Japan. As I said, 568 00:45:54.920 --> 00:46:00.719 like, one of the biggest narratives about it is that needed to modernize. 569 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:05.920 Like that's the narrative the nation has told itself in its history books, like 570 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.639 the nation needed to modernize in order to maintain its independence. So when we 571 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.880 say an era of peace, like I'm thinking of peace as a not at 572 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:22.000 war with another nation and not conquered or colonized by another nation. But I 573 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:29.039 do think that what the the follow up the anime and manga shows is that 574 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:34.800 just because a nation is at peace, there's still unrest kind of at a 575 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.960 local level, right because what Kenjin might be seeing is not I'm thinking in 576 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:43.760 those terms of colonization. He's thinking of people coming to my village and like 577 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:51.000 screwing with people, and that's what's still happening. Yeah, But well, 578 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:54.320 I mean that doesn't mean it's like not different though, you know what I 579 00:46:54.360 --> 00:47:00.159 mean, Like, it's sure, I think the idea is that, like 580 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:05.400 everything's not perfect, but I do think there's an idea that things are overall 581 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:09.360 better, you know, that like summer, I can't just show up and 582 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.800 just kill someone because like they feel like it, you know, and just 583 00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:15.920 like oh, yeah, this person insulted me or whatever, you know, 584 00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:22.320 and and that like people that it's that it's different, you know, and 585 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:28.159 and and a lot of the like he's dealing with smaller scale issues, you 586 00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:30.480 know, most of the time. Most of the time there's there's a whole 587 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:35.800 big plot in the second and third films, which are really the third and 588 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:40.039 fourth chronologically, which I think the two of you have not watched. Correct, 589 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.960 you've watched all five, Matthew, I've seen four and a half. 590 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:50.679 Oh okay, okay, Yeah, so there's maybe a larger kind of thing 591 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:53.519 going on there. But like the the point being like I don't I also 592 00:47:53.559 --> 00:48:02.400 don't feel like he was necessarily like this is justified and like righteous. Like 593 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:07.400 I feel like the character's perspective, which is I mean, I'll say, 594 00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:12.119 is a lot of conjecture because like, dude, don't say a lot of 595 00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:17.320 words, like you know, And I've seen his performance described as like too 596 00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:22.440 stoic, and I'm like, I feel like, if you're gonna describe this 597 00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:24.480 character this portrayal as too stoic, like I feel like you kind of don't 598 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:30.039 understand the character, but like maybe like too stoic for my taste, I 599 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:34.400 can that's fine, you know, but like I feel like that's who this 600 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.079 is. And it felt a lot of what's going on in terms of his 601 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:45.400 emotions or his point of view is unexpressed and implied. And but my my 602 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:50.239 take is more that like it's not like he's like this is the righteous whatever. 603 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.840 It's like that he feels like this is necessary, you know, right, 604 00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:57.480 this is the only way that we're going to get to a world that 605 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.519 it's like people can And to me, that's the point of this movie, 606 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:07.679 right, is that like he's doing all this killing to try and make the 607 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:14.559 rold a better place for like peasants, for for everybody, right for And 608 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:17.960 in the in the animated you find out that he actually grew up as a 609 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:23.920 farmer, like when he was really little, you know, but like then 610 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:29.039 he actually is a farmer for like six months to a year however long for 611 00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:34.159 like a year, you know, and because and is happy that way, 612 00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.280 living that way, in relative peace for a period of time, you know, 613 00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:42.639 right. And so to me, that's kind of like his journey is. 614 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.360 You know, it's not that just that he he falls in love with 615 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:50.119 someone who he has deeply harmed, you know, by killing her fiance. 616 00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:52.480 Like that's that's a big deal, and you know, and then he falls 617 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:54.920 in love with her and you know, like you say, a very chaste 618 00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:58.719 way, which like is fine with me, you know, like that I 619 00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:01.280 don't like a lot of romances, and I definitely don't like a lot of 620 00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:05.559 like tragic doomed romances, but like this is just one that works for me. 621 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.199 Oh, I just mean that, like there's not a bunch of sex 622 00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:12.639 scenes and heat. And what I more meant is that, like before they 623 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.639 go off to the cabin, you can tell there's something there, but they 624 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:19.639 don't. They don't have their actual first kiss and then that until they're off 625 00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.760 in the cabin. Yeah, but yeah, no both. I mean Mary 626 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:25.800 described it as the relationship with the Stoics, and I like I they're both 627 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:30.920 very sort of like express things quietly, which immediately is actually watching watching it 628 00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:37.199 in subtitles was perfect because so is their body language and the like yeah, 629 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:43.599 I love that, but go ahead, we you know, the three of 630 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:50.360 us have been talking about the Netflix Live Action Avatar The Last Airbender and talking 631 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:55.599 about the dialogue and just like the over explanation of things through dialogue. And 632 00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:00.159 one of the things that I like about this story, especially from the main 633 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:05.840 character, is that he doesn't talk a lot, but he does some amazing 634 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.920 acting in those moments. I mean, at the end of this movie, 635 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:15.440 the exhaust exhaustion on his face when he's finally like it's over, and I 636 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:20.079 think that's all he says, like it's over. Auta or something like that, 637 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:22.880 and it's just like, but his acting is so good and that you 638 00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:30.199 just feel it well, especially because I mean I have a fairly different take 639 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.519 on it, at least than Paul what you're saying in terms of my understanding 640 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:37.639 of it. We'll get to what the take is pacific. I'll say what 641 00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:38.800 is posifically, but then I alway want to take this point about his acting 642 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:43.320 is pacificly, yeah, because to me, this feels mostly about regret and 643 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:49.320 about that he he had to make these great sacrifices and do a lot of 644 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.239 things that he really didn't feel great about, especially as he learned more about 645 00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:55.599 what was happening in order to reach this goal. And I don't think that 646 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:58.760 he's like, oh my god, now I was all wrong. I never 647 00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:04.559 should have done those things. But I think he's still living with the guilt 648 00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.039 is too simple a word, but I think it's kind of My point is 649 00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:12.159 if I feel like the character is incredibly conflicted, and part of in the 650 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:15.840 newer stuff we've always gotten the sense of he is very conflicted about his past 651 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:20.719 and thinks he was doing the right thing, but also has a lot of 652 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:23.400 regrets and a lot of like mixed feelings about that, and I think we 653 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:27.639 have somewhat different takes on where that winds up. But to me, that's 654 00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:30.280 I think the point is not supposed to be that they're saying, here's what 655 00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:35.239 he feels. It can be summarized in one sentence. It's that the writing 656 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:39.159 and the acting really gives this feeling of a person who incredibly conflicted about an 657 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:45.800 incredibly complex, nuanced situation and time. And to me, that's a real 658 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:47.519 in the same way that I kind of love, you know, like other 659 00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:52.079 movies where we can walk away with different feelings about it. I love the 660 00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:54.719 uncertainty about it. I love that he doesn't have a let me tell you 661 00:52:54.760 --> 00:53:00.000 exactly how I feel about the past moment? Yeah was it all worth It 662 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:04.400 wasn't all worth it? Good man? Oh god, Yeah, well it 663 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.400 was all worth it, I mean for him. So I do I feel 664 00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:16.599 like he regrets me specifically, you mean killing right and killing people? I 665 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:20.679 mean, because that's the question that's put to him is can you kill enough 666 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:22.039 people to bring peace? Like? Is that the way to bring peace? 667 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.039 And I it was funny because here we're kind of on the flip side of 668 00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:30.760 conversations. You guys have been having with me about Avatar in that I feel 669 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.079 like I've become kind of the blood thirsty one the three of us that I 670 00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:40.360 I have definitely become more okay with the idea that violence is sometimes necessary as 671 00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:45.239 a way of working, you know, to end political oppression or things like 672 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:51.760 that. It is still not what I want necessarily, but I'm more okay 673 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:52.880 with it than I was in the past when I've said I'm just strictly, 674 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:59.480 like, you know, non violent. And I felt like in this movie 675 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:04.840 he was really wrestling with I thought like I was more okay with the things 676 00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:12.199 that he wanted to do than the movie was. Was. Hmm. It's 677 00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:17.599 interesting because I so I want to just to part briefly to talk about this 678 00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:24.000 as a prequel m because like, I feel like this is exactly the type 679 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:28.320 of story that I feel like. I don't know what I would think if 680 00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:30.960 I just saw it in a vacuum. I'm actually not totally sure. This 681 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:37.159 might have been the first tension I ever saw the animated because it's called the 682 00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:43.599 beginning. I start at the beginning. No, it's called trust and then 683 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.639 betrayal, which is a lot more on the news nose than any of the 684 00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:52.199 dialogue, but you know it's it's Samurai x Ronny Kenshin, trust and then 685 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.800 betrayal, like it's my wife has all of the like a bunch of the 686 00:54:57.880 --> 00:55:01.920 DVDs, right, and so she showed him to me like over twenty years 687 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:10.320 ago and these two or this one, but what is here the beginning I 688 00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:16.800 remember watching and then also basically the beginning of I think the second movie of 689 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:21.840 the three movies, which I think is the first movie that you haven't seen, 690 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:27.519 Riki. I'm not sure, but like but like so I'm trying to 691 00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:30.800 remember like whether I had seen this just in a vacuum or whether I'd actually 692 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:35.119 seen but it functions as a prequel, that's the point, right, This 693 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:40.320 is a diversion. You can just yeah anyway, but like so you already 694 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:45.039 know that it works out to an extent, right you know that he hangs 695 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.760 up the sword or flips it around basically, right, you know that he's 696 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:55.840 going to go around being a wanderer and using a reverse blade sword and not 697 00:55:57.079 --> 00:56:00.519 killing and that that's like some of the this and so this is more like 698 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:05.960 it's you know, it's one of those prequels that it's less about like Okay, 699 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:14.880 what happened before that his character go from being you know, but Tuosi 700 00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:20.920 to like to to you know, kenshit, you know Kimura like Wendy. 701 00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:23.880 Why did he become this way? And and see that's very intricate, and 702 00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:29.079 that this may be it, maybe that I'm misremembering the original story because I 703 00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:30.079 haven't seen it for a couple of years, and I think I never saw 704 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:35.119 it as much as you did. And also while I saw a good deal 705 00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.880 of the I think I saw most of season one and like part of season 706 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.280 two of the anime, I haven't seen anywhere near all of it, but 707 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:46.199 I did see those original movies, and what I remember is that he is 708 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:52.000 very much something very different, which is that he he wanted to hang up 709 00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:58.159 the sword entirely, but he kept feeling like he had to take it back 710 00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:01.400 down. And the compromise he was going to make is that he wasn't going 711 00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:07.480 to kill anymore. And in shirt five seconds of me saying that hitting someone 712 00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:09.760 in the head with a large piece of iron, no matter if it's sharp 713 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.880 or not, is often going to cause fatality, but we'll put that aside 714 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:16.159 for the moment. Yeah, super irrelevant, But I just I just had 715 00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:22.360 to did you tend to throw it that I understand. I think relevant, 716 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:23.280 but in a different way. Yeah, we'll do a full episode on it. 717 00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:29.679 To the story, it's not I mean two okay, put a pin 718 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:32.039 in that and there can be an episode of He's asked you to accept something 719 00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:35.559 that I don't think you can accept, is what I mean about it being 720 00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:40.840 relevant. But so I think there's an important point here in terms of the 721 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:49.360 idea of that I'm trying to figure out how this wouldn't be a whole hour 722 00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:53.800 conversation. But basically so the whole like searching for a third way, right, 723 00:57:54.119 --> 00:58:00.400 not wanting to kill the you know, certain character who's the main villain. 724 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:07.000 Like, to me, that is kind of like a it's a aspra. 725 00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:14.199 It's like an aspirational the idea that it is always worthwhile to try to 726 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:20.880 find a nonviolent solution. And where you were saying earlier that you have become 727 00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:28.519 more comfortable with the idea that sometimes perhaps violence is the only way that a 728 00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:34.599 particular form of oppression is going to end. I feel that too, And 729 00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:38.239 to me, it it depends like the story itself, to me is kind 730 00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:44.800 of what dictates whether I feel like killing a lot of people or never killing 731 00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:50.519 anyone is like the answer, you know, and like and how I view 732 00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.400 characters who do go around killing a lot of people as opposed to characters who 733 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:59.679 go around not killing anyone. And this character is both of those but in 734 00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:07.519 very different contexts. And I like the contrast. And I don't feel like 735 00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:13.039 the story itself is like looked at as a whole, like the whole character 736 00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:19.079 story to me is kind of basically it's more posing the question and letting the 737 00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:24.480 viewer just have our own feelings and thoughts about it, rather than having a 738 00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:30.559 viewpoint yes, this is right, this is right. I think the tangent 739 00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:35.840 I was trying to stop myself from go whatever that we're on now, but 740 00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:37.840 I want to pull us back from I think it's a different point. I 741 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.920 fully agree with everything you just said, and I think if it's framed as 742 00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:47.079 I used to be intentionally killing people now, I am going to do as 743 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:53.599 much as I can to fight in a non lethal manner, recognizing that sometimes 744 00:59:53.639 --> 01:00:00.280 people will die. But then I'm trying is to me very different from I'm 745 01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:06.559 going to use violence that in any world should be occasionally lethal. But because 746 01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.719 I say I'm not going to kill people that means I haven't killed I find 747 01:00:09.719 --> 01:00:15.119 that whole idea just so fundamentally unbelievable that it just throws me. But like 748 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:19.519 that that's what your main point though, I think that that's kind of what 749 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:22.000 I'm saying is to me, I love I think that is a major change. 750 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:27.360 But I felt like what this movie was saying was this is this is 751 01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:30.480 a big part of why because he thought he did kill all these people and 752 01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:36.360 it did bring about something better, but also it isn't perfect and there are 753 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:40.280 still problems and look at and and that part of where he was coming from 754 01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:44.679 was this idea of like, I'm killing the bad people, but then one 755 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.519 of the people he killed was this decent guy who just wanted to get married, 756 01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:52.199 and like that that this is a story of showing all the reasons why 757 01:00:52.760 --> 01:01:00.440 he doesn't have the he doesn't have the clearness of mind that he did during 758 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:06.920 this movie, and therefore no longer kills, no longer cuts up. It's 759 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:08.559 kind of more where I what I what I what I was understanding it to 760 01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:20.159 be. M Yeah, I guess I feel like he already was kind of 761 01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:22.400 of the feeling like this is the thing I'm going to do and then I'm 762 01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:29.400 going to stop doing this, you know, yeah, directly, yeah yeah. 763 01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:37.920 And for like he's involved with like Tomoy, you know, well, 764 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:44.480 that's one of the most fascinating things about his character in this one, and 765 01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:50.719 the way that he is acted is that he starts off the movie looking exhausted 766 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:57.440 of fighting and killing. Yeah, and he never enjoys it. He's he's 767 01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:04.079 never I mean, like a lot of other fighting anime, I feel like 768 01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:10.599 the main character to some degree like enjoys how powerful they are or enjoys fighting 769 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:16.039 specifically, like like Dragonball, Goku just likes to fight, not to inflict 770 01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:20.800 violence on other people, but he enjoys being strong and wants other people to 771 01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:24.159 be strong and fight against him. So like this this character is like very 772 01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:31.039 different from a lot of other anime protagonists, specifically like fighting ones in that 773 01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:36.559 regard and that he just like never seems to enjoy what he's what he's doing 774 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.920 fighting. Yeah yeah, yeah, Like like I think from the beginning he 775 01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:45.360 views violence as a tragic act basically, yeah yeah, yes. And and 776 01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:52.519 even when he fights with reverse blade sword, he's like he doesn't want to 777 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.079 fight that even, you know. Yeah, it's like he's like I'm not 778 01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:58.840 going to kill you, but I don't even want to fight you, you 779 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:04.920 know. Yeah, And it's and the tragedy of his character is like how 780 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:07.599 good he is at fighting? Right, He's like he's the best in the 781 01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:13.039 world at a thing he doesn't really want to do. And and there's a 782 01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:20.760 line in the animation where what's his name, uh Izuka? He where he 783 01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:27.400 the who's the other spy you know, who's collaborating where he says like, 784 01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:30.519 oh, are you going to be bored you know, out in the mountains 785 01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:36.119 or whatever doing whatever? And he's like, I don't kill people for fun, 786 01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:38.800 like, you know, Like what do you mean bored? Like I'm 787 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:42.519 bored of this. I don't want to do this. I'm just doing this 788 01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:45.480 because I think it's And he gives one line. He doesn't give this whole 789 01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:49.599 explanation, you know, but to me, the implication is like, yeah, 790 01:03:49.639 --> 01:03:52.280 it's like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not having 791 01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:54.079 a good time here, I'm just doing something I think I have to do, 792 01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:57.559 you know that I think is going to make the world better. But 793 01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:00.320 like, I mean, one thing I love so much about his story in 794 01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:05.000 general, but especially in this movie, is that he has this horrible experience 795 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:10.719 of killing this guy the night before his wedding, and we learned even more 796 01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:15.480 about that that one of the reasons why he first was taken on as a 797 01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:20.599 student was because he just had so much like he kept refusing to die in 798 01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:29.400 hard situations or no, was it his teacher who I can't remember? Was 799 01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:35.199 it he who? I'm sorry, I'm sorry again. My memory for details 800 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:41.400 is not the best. Write now, the guy before the wedding who didn't 801 01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:44.440 want to die. Yeah, we learn in this that he is like I 802 01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:46.559 have to keep living, I have to keep living. Hits him really hard 803 01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:49.880 because of something in his past. I can't remember if it's because of his 804 01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:56.119 story or the story of one of his mentors. That was definitely in the 805 01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:01.079 movie, Right, am I misremembering this? I don't. It could have 806 01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:05.719 been. I watched some of it without the subtitles and like, and then 807 01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:10.320 then I went back into that. But I also watched two different versions of 808 01:05:10.360 --> 01:05:17.079 the same story, like back to back. There's definitely he definitely had this 809 01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:24.360 like I don't want to die thing when he was little and then he didn't 810 01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:30.559 die, and like there is like an unwillingness to give up kind of yeah, 811 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:33.199 yeah, I'm not sure about the details, but like he definitely that 812 01:05:33.239 --> 01:05:36.639 experience that yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy resonated with it even 813 01:05:36.679 --> 01:05:41.320 before he learned more about him. It's like there was this it haunted him 814 01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:45.679 already. Yeah. And my point is, I think in a lot of 815 01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:49.559 movies that would have been the turning point and he would have sworn that that's 816 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:53.239 the last person he was going to kill. But he doesn't. And what 817 01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:56.880 he says of I'm going to stop, I have to keep killing, like 818 01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:01.400 is when he's telling that story to the to the person who who he doesn't 819 01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:04.719 know is the wife of the person he killed, but or the fiance. 820 01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:11.719 But yeah, I I love his story so much because it isn't simple, 821 01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:16.000 because it's not he he did something and they changed in one or eighty degrees. 822 01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:18.840 He was different. It's you know, it's an evolution, and he 823 01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:23.159 he was doing things that he didn't love for a cause that he believed in, 824 01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:26.559 and now he's doing things that are a little better for a cause. 825 01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:30.480 You know. It just it's complicated. Yeah. To me, it's like 826 01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:38.719 I appreciate it because I feel like sometimes character development, character changes, a 827 01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:43.480 character arc is like somebody going from being one character to suddenly basically being a 828 01:06:43.519 --> 01:06:47.760 different character because they had some singular experience or whatever. But like, I 829 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:55.960 feel like he's the same character throughout. He just gains some deeper understanding about 830 01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:00.239 some things and some some more understanding about like what it actually even means means 831 01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:02.039 to have a happy life, because he has one for like a minute, 832 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:09.039 you know. And and then changes his behavior from killing a lot of people 833 01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:13.280 to not killing anyone. But like his in some ways, I think his 834 01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:21.079 outlook doesn't necessarily fundamentally change. It's you know. The thing that gets me 835 01:07:23.519 --> 01:07:35.400 is that he accidentally kills a boy m and makes this vow to stop killing, 836 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:39.320 right, yeah, to cuts her. He's like, I'm done, 837 01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:42.039 But then he's like, no, we still have we still have a little 838 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:44.960 bit more to do. And then he goes he goes to the final battle 839 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:49.039 and kills a bunch of people. Yeah, And and there's something so interesting 840 01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:56.400 about that, because like that should be the moment, right, it's like, 841 01:07:56.519 --> 01:08:00.639 oh, no, I've killed the woman I love. I'm gonna stop 842 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:04.119 killing. Like that That's basically what he says. But then he continues on 843 01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:12.400 because he believes so much in this mission. Yeahright, And what you were 844 01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:15.399 saying, Paul, like that that he doesn't change. I guess like that 845 01:08:15.479 --> 01:08:25.039 he he has been a constant, and it feels like the other characters change 846 01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:30.439 their views on him, whether it's Tamoil or k like they start to see 847 01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:34.880 him differently or like understand something fundamental about him that they didn't previously. And 848 01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:39.760 that's that's the character development is like, Yeah, yeah, the protagonist doesn't 849 01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:45.199 change, the other characters understandings of the protagonists change. Yeah. It's just 850 01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:47.000 like a fascinating way to tell a story, I think. I mean, 851 01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:50.800 it's a character arc, it's not a character right turn you know. Yeah, 852 01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:53.840 there's so much more I want to talk about. I think we're probably 853 01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:56.319 going to revisit the subject at least one more time because I definitely want to 854 01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:58.760 talk about the last movie then, and we'll kind of maybe do an overview 855 01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:01.600 of the character. But unfortunately I'm under time constraint. I'm going to go 856 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:04.359 right now. Listeners, we want to know your feedback. What do you 857 01:09:04.359 --> 01:09:08.880 think? Send us thoughts all that's in the show notes, send us become 858 01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:12.399 members five dollars a month, all the great things. Riky, your last 859 01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:21.920 thoughts on this? It's a beautiful tale, beautifully visually shown, and surprisingly 860 01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:27.720 deep. I think for like kind of how little happens or like we're talking 861 01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:31.199 about like how little the character changes. Just talking with YouTube right now, 862 01:09:31.239 --> 01:09:35.560 Like I'm filled with so many more questions and thoughts that I need to go 863 01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:41.119 sit on them on my own. So thank you for that. Yeah, 864 01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:45.279 I would be honest, I didn't really have a wonderful time watching the movie. 865 01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:48.239 I enjoyed a lot of it. I think it was very powerful the 866 01:09:48.279 --> 01:09:54.039 way it would it would be like so much as told in non verbal but 867 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:57.760 I also found it very dull. For at one point, I think there 868 01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:01.840 was like thirty seconds between every line of dialogue for good like fifteen minutes or 869 01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:05.239 more. Yeah, and not Mike to movie. But yeah, all this 870 01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:08.359 is like, oh I want to watch it again. I'm like, do 871 01:10:08.479 --> 01:10:10.520 what? No, I just love talking about it. But it is a 872 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:14.880 is a great movie told an artistic style that is not my particular fancy, 873 01:10:15.039 --> 01:10:17.640 but it's still very a very good example of that style. Yeah, I 874 01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:21.680 would say I absolutely love the movie. I think it's my favorite prequel, 875 01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:30.239 the only prequel favorite prequel movie, and the only prequel that I like more 876 01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:36.840 than this prequel is the prequel series two Rogue one and or and And this 877 01:10:36.920 --> 01:10:43.800 movie does so many things that I usually often hate and like rage quit things 878 01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:47.479 for, but it does them in a way that does not feel manipulative to 879 01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:54.560 me. It just feels it feels very naturalistic. And just like I love 880 01:10:54.680 --> 01:11:00.760 the part where nothing's happening in quotes because so much is happening in my feeling 881 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:04.359 of watching the movie, you know, like the scene where he picks up 882 01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:08.520 the huge dikon, you know, I think that's what he's got there, 883 01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:13.199 and he's like so happy, and it's like that's like almost the only time 884 01:11:13.239 --> 01:11:17.600 we ever see the character smile, because he just like grew a giant radish. 885 01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:26.479 And I think the actor Takarusato, like does an amazing job. He 886 01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:30.359 also did almost all the stunts. I think most of the characters did almost 887 01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:33.119 all the stunts. All the scenes are shot in like one take, not 888 01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:36.560 okay, that's an exaggeration, but they do a lot of scenes like one 889 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:43.479 take, like just trying to have the flow. And one thing I really 890 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:46.720 enjoy is just how different it feels from like a Hollywood movie. Yes, 891 01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:53.640 and that's not a slight on Hollywood. Movies necessarily. It's just like most 892 01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:57.439 of what I see are Hollywood movies, and watching movies that are not made 893 01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:00.359 in Hollywood is often a good reminder that It's like, that's not the only 894 01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.079 way things can be. That's not the only way you can tell the story. 895 01:12:03.199 --> 01:12:10.159 And I feel like this is a beautifully told story of a simple story 896 01:12:10.279 --> 01:12:15.520 of vengeance declined, is what I would sum it up, because I think 897 01:12:15.640 --> 01:12:20.319 the story here is really like Tomoy's story, like that's she's not visibly the 898 01:12:20.359 --> 01:12:30.119 protagonist, but like her journey of being miserable and seeking only vengeance and actually 899 01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:34.199 becoming happy and then deciding to actually save the person who she was attempting to 900 01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:39.000 seek vengeance on. I think it's a really interesting story. You know. 901 01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:42.359 Yeah, I'm very sorry we didn't get to talk about her story because I 902 01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:45.239 think it's fascinating and probably will be a part two or a follow up there. 903 01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:48.560 And I'll just say last and I was like, I made a joke 904 01:12:48.600 --> 01:12:53.319 at the beginning about how the fact that she's the spy and the fact that 905 01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:58.920 he accidentally kills her are very tropy and are very predictable. But I also 906 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:02.840 agree that the way it I thought her actual death was kind of irolly, 907 01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:06.560 but like her being the spy, I thought was done in a way that, 908 01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:10.720 yes, it's very much a trope, would also fit perfectly, and 909 01:13:11.319 --> 01:13:14.760 I think because it didn't do a lot of Hollywood manipulative things really worked for 910 01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:19.079 me. Yeah. Also he's blinded at the end. I'm not sure if 911 01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:24.920 that. Yeah. No, all right, thank you both so much. 912 01:13:24.920 --> 01:13:27.439 Thank you to all our listeners. You're awesome. I gotta go.