You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly
and I'm Bill Thomas. We're back for a second episode of Ask Us Anything,
Colonial Parkway Murders Edition Robert Gray Edition. That's a mouthful, it is.
And if you here for the intro of our last episode. Robert Gray
so one of our longtime listeners who sends us fantastic questions and leaves insightful,
wonderful comments. And because he sent us so many questions. I thought,
let's turn all of Robert Gray's excellent questions into a full ask Us Anything episode,
And actually it turned out to be two ask Us Anything episodes. So
we hope that this is a good start into ask Us Anything. We are
going to open it up to everyone else who may have questions. There were
just so many questions twenty two in all that we wanted to give Robert his
own episode to thank him for being such a great supporter and such a great
commenter and such a great question askers. Robert, Thank you. We appreciate
your questions, and we appreciate you. And if you have good questions,
like Robert, we encourage you to ask them in a future ask Us Anything,
we'll jump right into them and we'll do another episode, particularly if we
can find good answers to your good questions. Yes, and if you ask
enough questions, we'll dedicate a whole entire episode just to you. Wow,
I like it pretty cool. Huh Yeah, all right, let's we answered
twelve questions last episode, and so we're going to kick off with question number
thirty and boy, it's a doozy. I'm not going to talk for a
couple of minutes. I'm going to sit back here and enjoy a cup of
tea. Well, Bill regales you with the information he's got. So the
question is this, have any tips come in indicating that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior
frequented the Yorktown Pub, a location of potential significance to the Thomas Dawski case.
The answer is an emphatic yes. Now we are starting to get a
number of tips, and we've been encouraging people to talk to law enforcement.
Of course, we understand that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior did frequent the Yorktown Pub.
Now, remember we have unconfirmed reports that Kathy Thomas and Rebecca tod Awsk
you were seen at the York Town Pub. Remember, folks, this is
the eighties. It's Virginia. It's a kind of conservative area with a lot
of military people. A lesbian couple that might have stopped in at the Yorktown
Pub would probably not be involved in any kind of public displays of affection,
holding hands or whatever. Two women could easily have gone to the Yorktown Pub.
And as I understand it, that was actually a big hangout back in
the eighties for a wide variety of people. There were bikers and military personnel,
and there was a lot of stuff going on at the Yorktown Pub.
I understand that it had a different atmosphere during the day when it was more
tourists and people stopping in for lunch. In the evening, it was definitely
a rougher crowd and watermen were definitely part of the mix here. And so
we are hearing reports that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was one of the people that
hung out at the Yorktown Pub. A related series of reports are coming into
us, and we're again encouraging people to go to law enforcement with this information.
We have multiple reports of couples being accosted or attacked while in their cars
parking near the Yorktown Monument. Kristin not knowing Yorktown as well as you do.
What's the monument? Okay? So the Yorktown Victory Monument is. It's
a really beautiful statue, stands very tall ora Yorktown Harbor. It has a
nice little semi circular pullout near it, so it's up above the Yorktown waterfront
like on a bluff, and around it now you can get to some nice
coffee shops, few art galleries, nice little B and B, and then
a couple of the tourist roads that you can get to. I don't know
what it looked like in the eighties, because in the eighties I was very
young and had not gone out to Yorktown. But the Yorktown Monument, the
Victory Monument is it's a very noticeable landmark. If you decided that you wanted
to have a nice view of the York River or the moon rise at the
sunset, Victory Monument would be a place to go for that. Now,
the reports were getting which extend as far back as nineteen eighty two and up
through the eighty six to eighty nine time frame of what we call the Colonial
Parkway murders. These are multiple reports that back in the eighties this area near
the Monument was a lot quieter than it is now, not as built up,
and that there were places that couples would go to pull off and be
romantic. Several people have come forward to us and said they were accosted by
a man driving the same kind of pickup truck that Wilmer has described. This
dark blue, dark green pickup truck mid sixties nineteen sixties six Dodge truck with
faded writing on the doors, not a cop car, not equipped with any
cop car type lights, but he would use his high beams as a way
of creating a wall of light. And he would come up to these couples,
many of them had the windows rolled up, because remember, at some
point, if we're into post nineteen eighty six, people had been warned to
be careful on the Colonial Parkway and surrounding areas because of the series of attacks
and murders that had taken place. So in two of these examples that have
come up and been put on my radar recently, these couples were basically assaulted.
A man came up to them who matches Wilmer's description, short, sandy,
brownish blonde hair, neatly trimmed, beard, wearing a cap, but
not dressed as a cop. He's dressed more like a mechanic. And he
would sometimes flash some sort of ID, but it wasn't a badge like a
police officer would have. And he would demand driver's licenses, interestingly, not
registrations. And he would demand driver's licenses, and he would tell people you're
trespassing, or you don't belong here, or you're engaged in some illegal activity
or what have you. Now, sometimes these couples would be making out.
Remember, we have reports from the earlier part of Wilmer's life that he started
out as a peeping tom And this is not dissimilar to the Golden State Killer
and other serial killers who start out as peeping tom's and then escalate into other
more violent activities, rape, murder, and ultimately murder of couples. Actually,
it sounds like Wilmer may have followed a similar trajectory to the Golden State
Killer. So this man comes up very aggressively banging on the windows demanding driver's
licenses. In both of these examples, the couples showed him the driver's license.
In one example, the driver, who was a man, put it
up to the window. The man, who matches Wilmer's description was trying to
get him to roll down the window, and he refused. A similar situation
happened in a second story. I heard the couple cracked the window about an
inch or so and slipped their driver's licenses out, and then when he went
back to his truck to supposedly run their licenses, they were both discussing it
privately and saying, this guy's not a cop, and we need to get
the out of here as quickly as possible. But they wanted to get their
driver's licenses back. They did succeed in getting their licenses back, and they
actually challenged him through the window, saying, you're not a cop. Now.
I don't know if Wilmer was carrying a gun. We know that he
used a gun later on in the Colonial Parkway murders, but perhaps he was
reluctant to use a gun or to try to break the window or something like
that. These very frightening encounters all happened right near the Yorktown Monument. And
then when I did a quick Google Maps search and Kristin you know the area
a lot better than I do. We're only talking about three tenths of a
mile from the Yorktown Pub to where these incidents took place, so it's an
eight minute walk and like a two minute drive. Very interesting to see pieces
starting to fall into place as we're getting all of these interesting tips and stories.
And again, we just cannot stress enough. If this is something that
happened to you, please report it to law enforcement immediately, and that way
we can continue to get the ball rolling on this one thing that I'm completely
baffled, and I have to admit enraged by the National Park Service and the
FBI received numerous reports of these kind of incidents back in the eighties. I'm
still shocked that, given all the information that was coming in, how they
weren't able to put together that Alan Wade Wilmer was terrorizing people on the Colonial
Parkway. To this day, it's still beyond me. I know you can't
help but look at these cases and see places where multiple balls were dropped by
multiple authorities, and I just I'm really baffled the same way that you are.
Another excellent question, does Alan Wade Wilmer Senior have any connection to Liberty
Security, National Park Service, law enforcement, or any other relevant persons of
interest. We mentioned these assaults on couples at the Yorktown Monument and along the
Colonial Parkway. We're looking into the liberty security thing. There's a possible intersection
there. We don't exactly know, but this is a very interesting possibility.
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior being at the Zodiac Club, the after hours club where
he more than likely met Teresa Howell. That's an interesting intersection, as we
understand it, because Apparently there was a fair amount of stuff going on at
the Zodiac Club involving drug deals and other things that might have been set up
or executed through that after hours club. So this is something we're definitely looking
at, Bill and Christian outside of the reference and a special kind of evil
and IRV Wells mentioning him as a suspect. Was Alan Waide Wilmer Senior on
your radar as a likely suspect involved in the CPM cases? Or did the
recent break take you by surprise? Bill? You want to take it and
then I will. First of all, my father told me the story of
the waterman who was questioned by the FBI up at his parents' home in Lancaster
County. I heard that story in nineteen eighty eight. Now, there was
no name attached to it, but I'd heard the story of the watermen being
questioned cleaning out his truck, being given a polygraphic examination after the execution of
a search warrant. I'd heard all that before. Alan Wilmer's Senior's name wasn't
part of that mix. But this was something that my father told me about
which he had heard directly from the FBI as far back as nineteen eighty eight.
For my part, other than that reference in a Special kind of Evil.
Now, I was not aware of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior until a couple
of months prior, when some of our media contacts let us know something is
going down with these cases. This is a name that we have seen.
Would you be interested in knowing more? Here's the information that we have.
And so as far back as October I believe it was, we had that
information. And so at that point the name was put on my radar because
it was and it was already on bills. Did the recent break take us
by surprise? We didn't know the press conference was coming until the Sunday night
before it did. That's about as taken by surprise as we both were,
like we had been given this information. We heard the name, and then
we were told Sunday night there is something coming press conference tomorrow. And at
that point Bill and I started our frantic calling back and forth, what have
you heard? What have you heard? And so it continued. So,
yeah, that was the sequence of events. But was he on my radar
as anything other than a blip in the book and the information we've been given?
Now, No, I would say ninety percent of what was announced that
the press conference was information that we had in October. We knew the names
of the suspect other people. There was some vagueness about exactly which cases were
going to be announced as being linked, but we knew Wilmer's name, we
knew his brother's name, we knew quite a bit about him, so we
had a good idea of what to expect. Of course, let's not forget
I had the strange experience of being booked by our FBI agent for a one
thirty PM call, which is not normally how we do things. Normally,
she would reach out to me, text me or call me and say can
you talk, and I would do my absolute best to talk with our FBI
agent immediately, not schedule a call six hours in advance. She texted me
first thing Monday morning and said could we talk today at one thirty. And
then as the day unfolded, and I know I've mentioned this before, Kristin
and I received more intel about what was coming, and Kristin said, there
is going to be a press conference today. And then when we actually saw
the media advisory from our media contacts, Kristin actually contacted me and said,
is this our press conference? Because it was so deliberately confusingly written. It
didn't reference the Colonial Parkway murders. It talked about the Isle of White Murders,
which is a made up title. No one's ever called the murder of
Robin Edwards and David Nobling the Isle of White Murders. I actually texted back
to our agent and said, is your intention for us to watch this press
conference together? And she said no, And then of course we ended up
having a very good conversation. But it was two hours long, from one
thirty to about three thirty PM, maybe even a little later. And I
realized later she actually received orders to tie me up for two plus hours so
that I couldn't watch the press conference. And of course, did they have
the courtesy to tell us the press conference was coming. No, And we
learn these things from other sources. And I know my friends at the FBI
and the Virginia State Police get very hinky when they realize that we know a
lot of things that they haven't told us. But the level of communication,
particularly with the FBI, is so terrible that we learn all kinds of things
from other sources because people actually want us to know these things. They want
the families to know these things. They want the advocates, which is the
hat that Kristin and I both wear here on Mind over Murder. They want
the advocates to know these things. It seems like the FBI and the Virginia
State Police don't want us to know these things, but yet somehow we still
learn them. I think a lot of that, too, has to do
with the fact that they don't trust us to know these things. We know
that the podcast has been a thorn in the side of THEI and the VSP
for a while. Now. Hi to our FBI and VSP friends, Thank
you for listening. We appreciate you because they think that we are going to
use it in wrong and irresponsible ways. We are not in any way attempting
to do your jobs for you. We are just attempting to facilitate this process
of helping make sure that these families and these victims have justice and have answers.
But people do trust us with information, which is why we have a
floot of tips coming in to us. They trust us to do what is
right and do what is fair. That is why we do have a ton
of information coming to us from outside sources. The FBI and the VSP may
not trust us with much other people do because they know that we have good
intentions and we're transparent about what we want. We want there to be justice,
we want there to be answers. The one thing the FBI and the
VSP really seem to have problems with sometimes is transparency. We're on the same
side here, we really, truly are. We're not trying to do your
jobs. We're not trying to get in your way, we're not trying to
impede you. We're not trying to contaminate a jury pool or anything else.
We just want answers and we want justice. We are all on the same
side, but I think sometimes our friends at FBI and VSP think that we're
not. We are, truly this is all that we want, and as
we've said before, we're not investigators. I've had some heated conversations with the
FBI at different times. Sometimes they've accused me, you want to solve the
Colonial Parkway murders, and I've said I can't solve the Colonial Parkway murders.
Kristin and I aren't investigators. We're not trying to solve the Colonial Parkway murders.
We're looking for answers, which I think we're entitled to. The families
just want to know what happened. Our perspective, I think is actually very
realistic. We get the fact that when you're talking about a case that's dragged
on for thirty seven years, there's a real good chance that some or all
of the offenders are going to be dead. I think a lot of people
that are in the serial killer space aren't necessarily living the healthiest lifestyles, so
I don't think we're going to meet too many ninety year old serial killers.
We get the fact that it's likely that some or all of our offenders are
going to be dead at this point because this case is dragged on for so
long. We're still looking for answers, which I think we have a right
to receive, answers what happened to our loved ones? And for what it's
worth, we knew all this information about what was going to be announced at
this press conference back in October. Did we say anything to anyone? No?
No, did we leak this information? No? For all the talk
about mind over murder and you guys who are problem and we don't like your
social media outreach, and we don't like the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page.
We don't like the mindover murder of Facebook page. You know something. Our
goal is to seek answers, and if that means that we ask the people
of Virginia and people across the country to weigh in about this case and express
themselves, I think that's a good thing. If the FBI and the Virginia
State Police don't see it that way, so be it. I can't help
that. I'm amused by the fact that recently both the Virginia State Police and
our friends at the Isle of White Sheriff's Department have publicly commented on our Facebook
pages and other social media. In one case, they actually we had a
typo in the FBI email address, and I'm not looking to have an argument
publicly or privately with any of these agencies. We said thank you, and
we fixed it. I find it amusing that the agencies, the FBI,
the Virginia State Police, Isle of Wight, and other agencies are monitoring our
social media. I think it's great. I actually know for a fact they
listen to this podcast and we make jokes a little bit about we'd like to
say hello, to the FBI analysts who have to listen to our podcast.
But we actually respect the work that you're doing. It might be nice if
they reciprocated, but I don't know if we'll ever get there. Yeah,
Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly are not your problems. We're loudmouse, sure,
but we're not your problem. The problem is there is a serial killer who
is linked to we don't even know how many cases right now. That is
a problem, and we would like to facilitate the search for answers to exactly
how many people this guy has murdered over the years. If you find that
to be a problem, maybe that's the problem. True enough, Do you
believe Alan Wade Wilmer Senior acted alone in the Edwards noveling and Hollow cases?
Do you believe, if Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is involved in the other Colonial
Parkway murders cases, that he acted alone in either scenario if others weren't involved
in the crime themselves, do you think there were other people involved after the
fact? Boy, this is the sixty four thousand dollars question. Yeah,
boy, Robert, this is a really good one. Yeah, I don't
know now our investigators have emphasized to us that Allan Wade Wilmer Senior was a
loaner. They keep using that word, and I don't dispute that. And
actually, we've heard from our friends in Lancaster and hello to all of our
friends in Lancaster County, new friends and old friends. We've heard from a
variety of people that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was a loaner. There are times,
though, where I think it's entirely plausible that Wilmer may have approached these
individuals and couples as a solo attacker. I think it's actually very likely that
he probably used his boat, that any wighe as a way of approaching these
couples. I was thinking about this the other day. Man, this sounds
like something right out of a horror film. It sounds like he might have
actually sailed up to a number of these locations in his boat, which had
a very shallow draw as the that is, it doesn't extend too far down
into the water as that type of workboat does, and that he would then
park the boat and walk up into these lovers lane and attack couples. Now,
obviously sometimes the truck is there and sometimes the truck is involved, but
there are other times when that there isn't a truck seen, and we actually
think it's quite possible that he may be using the boat. It's terrifying to
think about it. It is, It truly is. And I think to
myself as a much younger man kissing with a girlfriend and Lover's Lanes up in
Massachusetts and various places we lived when I was a teenager, and we weren't
thinking about stuff like that. We were enjoying each other's company, listening to
music, being romantic. It's terrifying when you think about it. Yeah,
there are times when I think to myself, it's entirely possible that Wilmer could
have pulled these things off alone. And we know he was armed. We
know that he shot Robin Edwards and David Nobling to death, so there's a
gun involved. So that's a great way to assert control. As Jim Clemente
demonstrated for us when we shot the Lover's Lane Murders series for Oxygen a few
years ago, it's entirely possible for a well prepared individual to do a blitz
attack where he comes at you. You're a couple sitting there with your boyfriend
or girlfriend and you or not paying a lot of attention to what's going on
around you, and the next thing you know, there's a man at the
window, and maybe he's got a gun or maybe he's got a knife.
It's really frightening. But I do think he could have pulled this off alone.
Yeah, I agree. All that being said, though, there are
times, and I've been to these crime scenes a number of times, often
with investigators, where the logistics of the movement and staging of the vehicles feels
so complicated that I can't help but think he could have had an accomplice.
And this is where Robert really gets into something super interesting. Do you think
others were involved after the fact, Even if someone might not necessarily have been
there at the time of the murders, it's possible that an accomplice could have
assisted Wilmer in the movement of the cars and trucks and the staging of the
vehicles, and those two things that the lover's lay and the staging of the
vehicles after the fact, those are two, as one of the investigators said
to me several years ago, these are the two hallmarks of the Colonial Parkway
murders. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this
word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Yeah. I'm
especially thinking about the Phelps lower case and the movement of cars and bodies,
and you would almost have to have had someone with Kathy and Becky's case if
he is in fact responsible for Kathy and Becky. And I am increasingly convinced
that he is that one. I could see him managing that one on his
own. I was talking to a friend today about this, because this is
all that I talk about with anyone anymore serial killers in this case that's sad
it is. But this person who's very interested in this case, and so
we spent a lot of time I'm talking about it and he asks, can
you tell me what's going on in the world a true crime? And I'll
tell him he was asking this very same question earlier, and he said,
what do you think about this whole accomplice thing? And he said, do
you want my two cents? And I said, I always want your two
cents absolutely, And he said, look as somebody who is on the shorter
side, which means he's my height, and I'm five to seven, almost
five eight. He said, I have learned that you are sometimes at a
disadvantage if you were not a tall person. And he said, but a
gun is a great equalizer. He doesn't know that from actual experience. He
just knows that he is somebody who carries. And he said, a gun
is a great equalizer. And I can very easily imagine a situation where he
would walk up to Kathy or to Becky and the best way to control physically
fit, fiery Kathy Thomas, The best way to control her is put a
gun on Becky and say, do the wrong thing and I shoot your girlfriend.
Yep, I can see that. And he made five five yeah,
which I do think needs to be emphasized just how short and muscular he was.
You put a gun in someone's hand and they're ten feet tall. The
gun is the great equalizer, is what he said. And I one hundred
percent agree with that. Could I see that being the case with Kathy and
Becky and with Robin and David? Yeah? Absolutely. Can I see him
handling the staging of David's truck by himself with a boat anchored offshore, Yeah,
I can see that. I think it gets more difficult with Keith and
Sandy, and I think it gets more difficult with Anna, Marie and Daniel.
At that point, maybe he did decide, Hey, I need somebody
to help me do the cars. Maybe he evolved a lot of the things
that our profiler friends have said over the years is that serial killers do evolve
over time. If this guy tracks the way that I think he tracks,
he spent a good amount of time for the first couple of years trying to
figure out how do I make bodies disappear? And he finally figured it out
with Keith and Sandy. That's why we haven't found them yet. He finally
figured out a way to make people will disappear in a body of water.
I think that he evolved, and so I do think there's a possibility that
he could have done maybe the first couple by himself, but I can see
him needing an accomplice later. And of course that is the sixty four thousand
dollars question. Now, if he did have an accomplice, who is that
person? Are they still alive? Is there any way if that person is
still alive, that we can leverage this information somehow. We've definitely addressed portions
of this, But let's go ahead and dig back in what significance, if
any, do you think Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's background as a waterman, hunter,
outdoorsman, and owner of a tree service business play in his involvement in
the Colonial Parkway murders cases. Can you spend some time on this subject for
a minute and talk about how he fits or does not fit into past profiles
done by experts. I think there's an excellent fit here because early on in
nineteen eighty six, before the rest of the murders had even taken place,
they said they thought that a waterman was an extremely likely a here. Now
they also talked about law enforcement, and they talked about being approached by someone
in law enforcement or someone presenting as such. They talked about an authority figure
quite a bit, but the waterman theory was definitely part of the mix,
and they did look very hard at people that were in the waterman category.
So I think Alan Wade Wilmer's background as a waterman, hunter, outdoorsman,
and even the owner of a tree service I think they're incredibly significant. And
as we heard from retired investigators who had him under surveillance back in the nineteen
eighty five eighty six time frame, when he was suspected of being involved in
the murder of Mary Harding. They talked about the fact that this guy was
capable of going into the woods and just disappearing, and he could hunt his
own food, it could fish. He could literally disappear into the woods for
weeks at a time if necessity. So he's comfortable in the woods, he's
comfortable on the water. He's an expert marksman and archer. He is an
excellent sailor, so he's completely comfortable in all of these varied environments. I
think this is really important, and I think this is one of the reasons
that Wilmer was able to get away with what I believe will ultimately be seen
as a series of rapes and murders. I think he may have been getting
away with this stuff for as long as forty years. It's because he's so
brilliant at the outdoors and the disappearing act, that he's capable of doing a
blending in and living off the land and the water. While he's quietly going
about his business, he's also looking for potential victims, and I think he's
found a number of them far beyond the ones that have been identified so far.
Oh yeah, I agree on that. The other part of this question
that's interesting is does he fit or not fit into past profiles done by experts.
I will tell you I would give several fancy steak dinners to know what
exactly the bau's original profile of this case was. I would pay so much
money to have that information me too, because I really want to know what
was the original assessment of this case. What did the BAU think of it?
We know it was brought up in front of the BAU at some point,
we do not know which agents worked on it. I would again give
my iteeth to know this. There is so much information there that I really
want and I would love to know. How does it fit in with the
BA you said. I'm hoping somebody out there will be kind enough to provide
some of that information. I would love to know. It is very interesting
to think about the next question is have any personal items, physical receipts,
bank records, vehicles belongings been collected as evidence since his passing and since his
identification as the perpetrator in the Edwards Noveling and how Cases. Has his former
residence and property been searched in recent years. I don't think we can get
into a ton of detail on this, but no, give it a shot.
I think that the long list these are things I am highly confident that
the FBI and the Virginia State Police will be looking at. I know that
when he was a tree service guy, We've talked to people who hired his
company, and they said he was very interested in cash and cash only.
He would only take cash for his services. I heard recently that he would
carry a bag and a gun in the cab of whatever truck he was driving,
and the bag usually had five thousand dollars in cash in it and a
handgun. Now, whatever happened to that money and that handgun. And I'm
sure the money went up and down depending on what was going on with his
various businesses. But I think he tried to fly under the radar as often
as possible. I'm highly confident the law enforcement agencies would be looking into all
these things. I will say this, since this part's been public, we
do know that his former residents and property were searched back on January fourth,
twenty twenty four, because a raid was conducted at that home. Now that's
the home that he died in in December twenty seventeen. If I'm not mistaken,
I believe his son lives there now with his family, But we don't
know a lot more about that, and law enforcement is not cuing us into
what they're looking at. These are things that the FBI and the Virginia State
Police are looking at for sure. Related to that question, is the next
one has any electronic evidence browser history, phone records, bank records, hard
drives, emails been investigated and surveilled. I ask because while these crimes were
committed in the pre digital era, it does not necessarily mean electronic evidence implicating
his involvement after the fact does not exist. And he mentions the browser history
in the Lisk cases. Yeah, I'm not trying to be flip here.
I'm highly kind confident that FBI and Virginia State Police would be looking at this
kind of thing. I know they did a very thorough search of his home
and the surrounding grounds, and I'm sure they'd be looking for cell phones,
computers, and other digital devices. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that.
Do you have any information on the geographic area covered by Alan Wade Wilmer
senior's tree removal business and specific job site locations. Have any of those locations
been searched for evidence? Great questions. I really wish we could answer more
of it. Yeah, these are things that are not being shared with us
by law enforcement. Again, I would think so it seems to make perfect
sense to me. Now we are just civilians. I think they're going to
be looking at all of this stuff. Now. Remember, Wilmer definitely tries
to fly under the radar in that latter part of his life when he transitioned
out of being a waterman. And by the way, some people have pointed
out to us recently that a lot of watermen got out of the business in
the late nineteen eighties because there were some pretty serious problems with water quality and
this whole Save the Bay thing and all the discussion that was going on around
water quality. But as I understand it, and I'm reading a little bit
more about this, in the late eighties, the quality of the water plunged
and as a result, the crabbing an oystering business fell off dramatically because the
critters were not doing well. Yeah, that's where the Save the Bay initiative
came from. This may have a lot to do with Wilmer's decision to get
into the tree business and to get out of the waterman business. It's also
worth noting something Elan Waide Wilmer Senior was a highly intelligent man. In my
opinion. He got away with rape and murder for perhaps as long as forty
years, extending all the way back into the seventies. He was smart enough
to recognize that he needed to get the heck off the Colonial Parkway after he
was looked at and had a pretty close encounter actually with the FBI. This
whole thing, with the interrogation and the search warrant and the polygraphic examination.
I'm not saying it scared him straight, because I believe he then turned right
around and killed Teresa Howell and more than likely Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower.
But you'll notice how he's not hunting on the parkway on the Parkway anymore
because that's federal property, that's the FBI. I think he wanted nothing further
to do with them because he realized he'd actually had a very close encounter there
with federal rew enforcement. Yeah, some of the other cases that people have
been bringing to our attention took place in Chesapeake, for example, which is
also not the Colonial Parkway. And there's even one down on the Carolina Line
in Kurtch County, which again not the Parkway. So I do think you're
right Bill that, after that close call with the FBI and being polygraphed and
getting away with it, sure at that point he was like, and we're
good here. It's time for other places to go. Do profilers you've spoken
to think Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible or involved in the other Colonial Parkway
murders cases? If so, which ones and why. The people we've talked
to seem to think that he may be good for all four and many others.
They don't think that there are year long gaps between his attacks. They
think that he is out looking for a variety of different potential victims. Interestingly,
one of our profiler friends said recently that they thought that Wilmer was looking
for variety, which is why he liked attacking singles as well as the challenge.
If you think about it of taking on a young, healthy couple,
that becomes even more of a challenge to successfully subdue and kill two people.
We should always remember that this is about power and control and rage. Yes,
this man is full of rage, which is expressed in these horrific attacks
against singles and couples. But I think he is constantly looking for something new
and different. We had asked Jim Fitzgerald and doctor Ray Carr about whether they
thought that Wilmer Senior was a opportunistic or preferential offender, and I really liked
their answer. They said, very likely preferential, but he'llt he's opportunistic and
that he'll take whatever he can get singles, couples, whoever happens to be
around whenever the urge strikes, and I get because I have never had law
enforcement training or profiling training, I get stuck into the boxes of it all.
And it didn't occur to me until fitz and Ray said it that you
can be both. It doesn't happen to be one or the other. And
I really liked the way that they put that because it made me Yeah,
So it isn't You're not just checking one box or the other. It could
be both. But if it's the same way that an offender can be both
organized and organized, you can have mixed presentation. You've got elements of both
in there. It always broadens my thinking to talk to Fitz and Ray and
Jim Clemente and all of our other law enforcement friends who have been so generous
with their time and energy, and most especially Laura Richards, who has really
given me a lot of good insight and a lot of great things to think
about. They have really leapt into this case and taken the time to give
us sort of the masterclass in profiling that neither of us ever had. Because
we're not law enforcement, we're getting it the hard way, but we're getting
it in the best possible way. But I really liked what fits and doctor
Ray had to say the other day, and so that's really my approach to
it now is broader strokes and not stuck into boxes. What type of momentum
do you think this recent development in the Edwards Noveling and Howell cases has to
push the other unsolved cases forward. I hope this will provide a powerful push.
The communication, as always between the families and the law enforcement agencies,
is terrible, and they are not good about letting us know what's going on.
Obviously, we know that we have good news. I would call it
for Robin Edwards and David Knobling's families, and we genuinely are thrilled about that.
I recognize that learning who killed your loved one isn't great news, but
when you've been looking for answers for thirty five years, it's important and I
think it's a positive development and I hope it gives them some comfort. The
same thing for Teresa Howell, who's a family who we haven't yet met,
but I hope that we will soon. For the family of Keith Colin Cassandra
Hailey, this is a very frustrating time now because they were told by the
FBI agents that they are ninety nine percent certain that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is
responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith calling Cassandra Haley. But we're
not quite there at answers and now for the rest of us, Thomas Sowski
and Phelps Lower, we're still waiting. We're happy for the other families,
and we all work together as a team to try to keep this case moving
forward. I would be less than honest if I didn't say that this is
a difficult time for all of us who don't yet have answers. I'm hopeful
that the momentum will be created and that the Virginia State Police and the FBI
will do their absolute best to get answers for all of us in the Colonial
Parkway murders. I think this has been a revivifying moment for this investigation,
and I just hope that the momentum holds. I hope that they carry it
through to the end, because the Thomases and the Dawskis, and the Phelps
and the Lowers deserve answers. I really just hope, and dare I even
say it, pray that this will get us across the finish line finally,
so that we have not justice, there is no way for there to be
justice, so that there will be answers for these families, which is really
what we all want, and I think we're all on the same team about
that. Robert, thank you so much for the amazing questions, and thank
you to everyone who has been tuning in interacting with us on our social media
pages asking questions. We are doing this with all the hope in the world
that this case will eventually be solved, but we could not continue to do
it without all of your support, So we thank you all very much for
continuing to tune in to engage with us on the Facebook page, and please
continue to send in any tips to investigators that you may have. There is
no tip that is too small. If there is any information that you think
you can provide about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and his whereabouts or his associates or
anything related to that, please make that call. There is nothing insignificant about
what you can offer. You can contact the fa at one eight hundred call
FBI or submitting a tip online at tips dot FBI dot gov. And you
can also reach out to the Virginia State Police by email at Questions at VSP
dot Virginia dot gov. We want to encourage anyone who has any information to
come forward now that is going to do it for this episode of Mindover Murder.
Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mindover
Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers
are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit.
Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with
Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook,
and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five
six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder m