1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:44,439 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:50,000 and I'm Bill Thomas. We're back for a second episode of Ask Us Anything, 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:58,000 Colonial Parkway Murders Edition Robert Gray Edition. That's a mouthful, it is. 12 00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:03,159 And if you here for the intro of our last episode. Robert Gray 13 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,400 so one of our longtime listeners who sends us fantastic questions and leaves insightful, 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,040 wonderful comments. And because he sent us so many questions. I thought, 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:19,959 let's turn all of Robert Gray's excellent questions into a full ask Us Anything episode, 16 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,680 And actually it turned out to be two ask Us Anything episodes. So 17 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,799 we hope that this is a good start into ask Us Anything. We are 18 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,680 going to open it up to everyone else who may have questions. There were 19 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:38,000 just so many questions twenty two in all that we wanted to give Robert his 20 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:42,000 own episode to thank him for being such a great supporter and such a great 21 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,200 commenter and such a great question askers. Robert, Thank you. We appreciate 22 00:01:46,239 --> 00:01:49,920 your questions, and we appreciate you. And if you have good questions, 23 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:55,560 like Robert, we encourage you to ask them in a future ask Us Anything, 24 00:01:55,719 --> 00:01:59,599 we'll jump right into them and we'll do another episode, particularly if we 25 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,799 can find good answers to your good questions. Yes, and if you ask 26 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,319 enough questions, we'll dedicate a whole entire episode just to you. Wow, 27 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,400 I like it pretty cool. Huh Yeah, all right, let's we answered 28 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,159 twelve questions last episode, and so we're going to kick off with question number 29 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:19,960 thirty and boy, it's a doozy. I'm not going to talk for a 30 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,039 couple of minutes. I'm going to sit back here and enjoy a cup of 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,680 tea. Well, Bill regales you with the information he's got. So the 32 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:30,919 question is this, have any tips come in indicating that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior 33 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:37,680 frequented the Yorktown Pub, a location of potential significance to the Thomas Dawski case. 34 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,919 The answer is an emphatic yes. Now we are starting to get a 35 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,960 number of tips, and we've been encouraging people to talk to law enforcement. 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:53,919 Of course, we understand that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior did frequent the Yorktown Pub. 37 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:58,599 Now, remember we have unconfirmed reports that Kathy Thomas and Rebecca tod Awsk 38 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,280 you were seen at the York Town Pub. Remember, folks, this is 39 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:07,039 the eighties. It's Virginia. It's a kind of conservative area with a lot 40 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:14,039 of military people. A lesbian couple that might have stopped in at the Yorktown 41 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,560 Pub would probably not be involved in any kind of public displays of affection, 42 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:27,039 holding hands or whatever. Two women could easily have gone to the Yorktown Pub. 43 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,039 And as I understand it, that was actually a big hangout back in 44 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:37,520 the eighties for a wide variety of people. There were bikers and military personnel, 45 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,800 and there was a lot of stuff going on at the Yorktown Pub. 46 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,400 I understand that it had a different atmosphere during the day when it was more 47 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:49,680 tourists and people stopping in for lunch. In the evening, it was definitely 48 00:03:49,719 --> 00:03:54,120 a rougher crowd and watermen were definitely part of the mix here. And so 49 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,479 we are hearing reports that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was one of the people that 50 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,000 hung out at the Yorktown Pub. A related series of reports are coming into 51 00:04:05,199 --> 00:04:09,800 us, and we're again encouraging people to go to law enforcement with this information. 52 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:17,000 We have multiple reports of couples being accosted or attacked while in their cars 53 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:24,879 parking near the Yorktown Monument. Kristin not knowing Yorktown as well as you do. 54 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,680 What's the monument? Okay? So the Yorktown Victory Monument is. It's 55 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,480 a really beautiful statue, stands very tall ora Yorktown Harbor. It has a 56 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:40,959 nice little semi circular pullout near it, so it's up above the Yorktown waterfront 57 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:46,240 like on a bluff, and around it now you can get to some nice 58 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,920 coffee shops, few art galleries, nice little B and B, and then 59 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,879 a couple of the tourist roads that you can get to. I don't know 60 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:59,160 what it looked like in the eighties, because in the eighties I was very 61 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:02,360 young and had not gone out to Yorktown. But the Yorktown Monument, the 62 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:09,160 Victory Monument is it's a very noticeable landmark. If you decided that you wanted 63 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,199 to have a nice view of the York River or the moon rise at the 64 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,160 sunset, Victory Monument would be a place to go for that. Now, 65 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:23,279 the reports were getting which extend as far back as nineteen eighty two and up 66 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,439 through the eighty six to eighty nine time frame of what we call the Colonial 67 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,120 Parkway murders. These are multiple reports that back in the eighties this area near 68 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,279 the Monument was a lot quieter than it is now, not as built up, 69 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,800 and that there were places that couples would go to pull off and be 70 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,160 romantic. Several people have come forward to us and said they were accosted by 71 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:54,600 a man driving the same kind of pickup truck that Wilmer has described. This 72 00:05:54,800 --> 00:06:00,839 dark blue, dark green pickup truck mid sixties nineteen sixties six Dodge truck with 73 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:06,040 faded writing on the doors, not a cop car, not equipped with any 74 00:06:06,079 --> 00:06:12,120 cop car type lights, but he would use his high beams as a way 75 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,720 of creating a wall of light. And he would come up to these couples, 76 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,600 many of them had the windows rolled up, because remember, at some 77 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:24,800 point, if we're into post nineteen eighty six, people had been warned to 78 00:06:24,879 --> 00:06:30,439 be careful on the Colonial Parkway and surrounding areas because of the series of attacks 79 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:34,120 and murders that had taken place. So in two of these examples that have 80 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:40,720 come up and been put on my radar recently, these couples were basically assaulted. 81 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,639 A man came up to them who matches Wilmer's description, short, sandy, 82 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,600 brownish blonde hair, neatly trimmed, beard, wearing a cap, but 83 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,360 not dressed as a cop. He's dressed more like a mechanic. And he 84 00:06:56,399 --> 00:07:00,360 would sometimes flash some sort of ID, but it wasn't a badge like a 85 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:05,519 police officer would have. And he would demand driver's licenses, interestingly, not 86 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:12,279 registrations. And he would demand driver's licenses, and he would tell people you're 87 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,399 trespassing, or you don't belong here, or you're engaged in some illegal activity 88 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,720 or what have you. Now, sometimes these couples would be making out. 89 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,879 Remember, we have reports from the earlier part of Wilmer's life that he started 90 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,639 out as a peeping tom And this is not dissimilar to the Golden State Killer 91 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:38,600 and other serial killers who start out as peeping tom's and then escalate into other 92 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,920 more violent activities, rape, murder, and ultimately murder of couples. Actually, 93 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,759 it sounds like Wilmer may have followed a similar trajectory to the Golden State 94 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:55,680 Killer. So this man comes up very aggressively banging on the windows demanding driver's 95 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,000 licenses. In both of these examples, the couples showed him the driver's license. 96 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,120 In one example, the driver, who was a man, put it 97 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,959 up to the window. The man, who matches Wilmer's description was trying to 98 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:13,120 get him to roll down the window, and he refused. A similar situation 99 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,040 happened in a second story. I heard the couple cracked the window about an 100 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,279 inch or so and slipped their driver's licenses out, and then when he went 101 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,199 back to his truck to supposedly run their licenses, they were both discussing it 102 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:31,319 privately and saying, this guy's not a cop, and we need to get 103 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,120 the out of here as quickly as possible. But they wanted to get their 104 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,200 driver's licenses back. They did succeed in getting their licenses back, and they 105 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:45,519 actually challenged him through the window, saying, you're not a cop. Now. 106 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,480 I don't know if Wilmer was carrying a gun. We know that he 107 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,360 used a gun later on in the Colonial Parkway murders, but perhaps he was 108 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:58,000 reluctant to use a gun or to try to break the window or something like 109 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,480 that. These very frightening encounters all happened right near the Yorktown Monument. And 110 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:09,120 then when I did a quick Google Maps search and Kristin you know the area 111 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,759 a lot better than I do. We're only talking about three tenths of a 112 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:18,519 mile from the Yorktown Pub to where these incidents took place, so it's an 113 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:26,000 eight minute walk and like a two minute drive. Very interesting to see pieces 114 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:31,840 starting to fall into place as we're getting all of these interesting tips and stories. 115 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,879 And again, we just cannot stress enough. If this is something that 116 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:41,200 happened to you, please report it to law enforcement immediately, and that way 117 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,679 we can continue to get the ball rolling on this one thing that I'm completely 118 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:52,879 baffled, and I have to admit enraged by the National Park Service and the 119 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,639 FBI received numerous reports of these kind of incidents back in the eighties. I'm 120 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:05,960 still shocked that, given all the information that was coming in, how they 121 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,960 weren't able to put together that Alan Wade Wilmer was terrorizing people on the Colonial 122 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:16,080 Parkway. To this day, it's still beyond me. I know you can't 123 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:22,480 help but look at these cases and see places where multiple balls were dropped by 124 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:28,080 multiple authorities, and I just I'm really baffled the same way that you are. 125 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,360 Another excellent question, does Alan Wade Wilmer Senior have any connection to Liberty 126 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,480 Security, National Park Service, law enforcement, or any other relevant persons of 127 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:46,840 interest. We mentioned these assaults on couples at the Yorktown Monument and along the 128 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:54,639 Colonial Parkway. We're looking into the liberty security thing. There's a possible intersection 129 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,360 there. We don't exactly know, but this is a very interesting possibility. 130 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,720 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior being at the Zodiac Club, the after hours club where 131 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:15,159 he more than likely met Teresa Howell. That's an interesting intersection, as we 132 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,120 understand it, because Apparently there was a fair amount of stuff going on at 133 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:26,279 the Zodiac Club involving drug deals and other things that might have been set up 134 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:33,240 or executed through that after hours club. So this is something we're definitely looking 135 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,120 at, Bill and Christian outside of the reference and a special kind of evil 136 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:43,039 and IRV Wells mentioning him as a suspect. Was Alan Waide Wilmer Senior on 137 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,159 your radar as a likely suspect involved in the CPM cases? Or did the 138 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,480 recent break take you by surprise? Bill? You want to take it and 139 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,360 then I will. First of all, my father told me the story of 140 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:03,080 the waterman who was questioned by the FBI up at his parents' home in Lancaster 141 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,399 County. I heard that story in nineteen eighty eight. Now, there was 142 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,919 no name attached to it, but I'd heard the story of the watermen being 143 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,279 questioned cleaning out his truck, being given a polygraphic examination after the execution of 144 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:26,559 a search warrant. I'd heard all that before. Alan Wilmer's Senior's name wasn't 145 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:30,480 part of that mix. But this was something that my father told me about 146 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,679 which he had heard directly from the FBI as far back as nineteen eighty eight. 147 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,240 For my part, other than that reference in a Special kind of Evil. 148 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:45,360 Now, I was not aware of Alan Wade Wilmer Senior until a couple 149 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:52,399 of months prior, when some of our media contacts let us know something is 150 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,759 going down with these cases. This is a name that we have seen. 151 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,279 Would you be interested in knowing more? Here's the information that we have. 152 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,879 And so as far back as October I believe it was, we had that 153 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,080 information. And so at that point the name was put on my radar because 154 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,480 it was and it was already on bills. Did the recent break take us 155 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:20,399 by surprise? We didn't know the press conference was coming until the Sunday night 156 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,240 before it did. That's about as taken by surprise as we both were, 157 00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:30,279 like we had been given this information. We heard the name, and then 158 00:13:30,279 --> 00:13:35,840 we were told Sunday night there is something coming press conference tomorrow. And at 159 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,000 that point Bill and I started our frantic calling back and forth, what have 160 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:43,039 you heard? What have you heard? And so it continued. So, 161 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,440 yeah, that was the sequence of events. But was he on my radar 162 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:50,559 as anything other than a blip in the book and the information we've been given? 163 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:54,639 Now, No, I would say ninety percent of what was announced that 164 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,399 the press conference was information that we had in October. We knew the names 165 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:09,679 of the suspect other people. There was some vagueness about exactly which cases were 166 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,480 going to be announced as being linked, but we knew Wilmer's name, we 167 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,120 knew his brother's name, we knew quite a bit about him, so we 168 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:20,240 had a good idea of what to expect. Of course, let's not forget 169 00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:28,000 I had the strange experience of being booked by our FBI agent for a one 170 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,120 thirty PM call, which is not normally how we do things. Normally, 171 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,039 she would reach out to me, text me or call me and say can 172 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,840 you talk, and I would do my absolute best to talk with our FBI 173 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:48,080 agent immediately, not schedule a call six hours in advance. She texted me 174 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,480 first thing Monday morning and said could we talk today at one thirty. And 175 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:56,799 then as the day unfolded, and I know I've mentioned this before, Kristin 176 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,240 and I received more intel about what was coming, and Kristin said, there 177 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:05,759 is going to be a press conference today. And then when we actually saw 178 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,440 the media advisory from our media contacts, Kristin actually contacted me and said, 179 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:16,759 is this our press conference? Because it was so deliberately confusingly written. It 180 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:22,120 didn't reference the Colonial Parkway murders. It talked about the Isle of White Murders, 181 00:15:22,159 --> 00:15:26,000 which is a made up title. No one's ever called the murder of 182 00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:31,240 Robin Edwards and David Nobling the Isle of White Murders. I actually texted back 183 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,879 to our agent and said, is your intention for us to watch this press 184 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:41,440 conference together? And she said no, And then of course we ended up 185 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,679 having a very good conversation. But it was two hours long, from one 186 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,600 thirty to about three thirty PM, maybe even a little later. And I 187 00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:56,279 realized later she actually received orders to tie me up for two plus hours so 188 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,799 that I couldn't watch the press conference. And of course, did they have 189 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,120 the courtesy to tell us the press conference was coming. No, And we 190 00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:08,399 learn these things from other sources. And I know my friends at the FBI 191 00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:14,360 and the Virginia State Police get very hinky when they realize that we know a 192 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,840 lot of things that they haven't told us. But the level of communication, 193 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:25,480 particularly with the FBI, is so terrible that we learn all kinds of things 194 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:30,799 from other sources because people actually want us to know these things. They want 195 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,399 the families to know these things. They want the advocates, which is the 196 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,639 hat that Kristin and I both wear here on Mind over Murder. They want 197 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:44,080 the advocates to know these things. It seems like the FBI and the Virginia 198 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,919 State Police don't want us to know these things, but yet somehow we still 199 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,000 learn them. I think a lot of that, too, has to do 200 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,159 with the fact that they don't trust us to know these things. We know 201 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,840 that the podcast has been a thorn in the side of THEI and the VSP 202 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,079 for a while. Now. Hi to our FBI and VSP friends, Thank 203 00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:07,480 you for listening. We appreciate you because they think that we are going to 204 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,519 use it in wrong and irresponsible ways. We are not in any way attempting 205 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:18,559 to do your jobs for you. We are just attempting to facilitate this process 206 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,880 of helping make sure that these families and these victims have justice and have answers. 207 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:30,119 But people do trust us with information, which is why we have a 208 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,680 floot of tips coming in to us. They trust us to do what is 209 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:37,079 right and do what is fair. That is why we do have a ton 210 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:42,799 of information coming to us from outside sources. The FBI and the VSP may 211 00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:48,640 not trust us with much other people do because they know that we have good 212 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,359 intentions and we're transparent about what we want. We want there to be justice, 213 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,079 we want there to be answers. The one thing the FBI and the 214 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,920 VSP really seem to have problems with sometimes is transparency. We're on the same 215 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:03,400 side here, we really, truly are. We're not trying to do your 216 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,200 jobs. We're not trying to get in your way, we're not trying to 217 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,200 impede you. We're not trying to contaminate a jury pool or anything else. 218 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,480 We just want answers and we want justice. We are all on the same 219 00:18:15,559 --> 00:18:18,799 side, but I think sometimes our friends at FBI and VSP think that we're 220 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:25,200 not. We are, truly this is all that we want, and as 221 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,119 we've said before, we're not investigators. I've had some heated conversations with the 222 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:36,200 FBI at different times. Sometimes they've accused me, you want to solve the 223 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,720 Colonial Parkway murders, and I've said I can't solve the Colonial Parkway murders. 224 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:48,519 Kristin and I aren't investigators. We're not trying to solve the Colonial Parkway murders. 225 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:52,680 We're looking for answers, which I think we're entitled to. The families 226 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,039 just want to know what happened. Our perspective, I think is actually very 227 00:18:57,079 --> 00:19:00,799 realistic. We get the fact that when you're talking about a case that's dragged 228 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:06,759 on for thirty seven years, there's a real good chance that some or all 229 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:10,160 of the offenders are going to be dead. I think a lot of people 230 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:18,839 that are in the serial killer space aren't necessarily living the healthiest lifestyles, so 231 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,640 I don't think we're going to meet too many ninety year old serial killers. 232 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,759 We get the fact that it's likely that some or all of our offenders are 233 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:32,079 going to be dead at this point because this case is dragged on for so 234 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,160 long. We're still looking for answers, which I think we have a right 235 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,960 to receive, answers what happened to our loved ones? And for what it's 236 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,119 worth, we knew all this information about what was going to be announced at 237 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,440 this press conference back in October. Did we say anything to anyone? No? 238 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,480 No, did we leak this information? No? For all the talk 239 00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:03,000 about mind over murder and you guys who are problem and we don't like your 240 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:07,160 social media outreach, and we don't like the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page. 241 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,160 We don't like the mindover murder of Facebook page. You know something. Our 242 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,440 goal is to seek answers, and if that means that we ask the people 243 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:22,200 of Virginia and people across the country to weigh in about this case and express 244 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,519 themselves, I think that's a good thing. If the FBI and the Virginia 245 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,640 State Police don't see it that way, so be it. I can't help 246 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,559 that. I'm amused by the fact that recently both the Virginia State Police and 247 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:44,119 our friends at the Isle of White Sheriff's Department have publicly commented on our Facebook 248 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,559 pages and other social media. In one case, they actually we had a 249 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:53,359 typo in the FBI email address, and I'm not looking to have an argument 250 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,799 publicly or privately with any of these agencies. We said thank you, and 251 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:03,519 we fixed it. I find it amusing that the agencies, the FBI, 252 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,960 the Virginia State Police, Isle of Wight, and other agencies are monitoring our 253 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,599 social media. I think it's great. I actually know for a fact they 254 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,039 listen to this podcast and we make jokes a little bit about we'd like to 255 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:21,440 say hello, to the FBI analysts who have to listen to our podcast. 256 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:26,440 But we actually respect the work that you're doing. It might be nice if 257 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,519 they reciprocated, but I don't know if we'll ever get there. Yeah, 258 00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:33,200 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly are not your problems. We're loudmouse, sure, 259 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:38,880 but we're not your problem. The problem is there is a serial killer who 260 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,000 is linked to we don't even know how many cases right now. That is 261 00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:48,440 a problem, and we would like to facilitate the search for answers to exactly 262 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,279 how many people this guy has murdered over the years. If you find that 263 00:21:52,400 --> 00:22:00,759 to be a problem, maybe that's the problem. True enough, Do you 264 00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:06,240 believe Alan Wade Wilmer Senior acted alone in the Edwards noveling and Hollow cases? 265 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:10,480 Do you believe, if Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is involved in the other Colonial 266 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,279 Parkway murders cases, that he acted alone in either scenario if others weren't involved 267 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:21,319 in the crime themselves, do you think there were other people involved after the 268 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,480 fact? Boy, this is the sixty four thousand dollars question. Yeah, 269 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,880 boy, Robert, this is a really good one. Yeah, I don't 270 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:36,519 know now our investigators have emphasized to us that Allan Wade Wilmer Senior was a 271 00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:38,599 loaner. They keep using that word, and I don't dispute that. And 272 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,160 actually, we've heard from our friends in Lancaster and hello to all of our 273 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:48,160 friends in Lancaster County, new friends and old friends. We've heard from a 274 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,440 variety of people that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was a loaner. There are times, 275 00:22:53,519 --> 00:23:00,480 though, where I think it's entirely plausible that Wilmer may have approached these 276 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:07,640 individuals and couples as a solo attacker. I think it's actually very likely that 277 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:14,279 he probably used his boat, that any wighe as a way of approaching these 278 00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:17,960 couples. I was thinking about this the other day. Man, this sounds 279 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,119 like something right out of a horror film. It sounds like he might have 280 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,160 actually sailed up to a number of these locations in his boat, which had 281 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,319 a very shallow draw as the that is, it doesn't extend too far down 282 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,279 into the water as that type of workboat does, and that he would then 283 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:42,160 park the boat and walk up into these lovers lane and attack couples. Now, 284 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,279 obviously sometimes the truck is there and sometimes the truck is involved, but 285 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,799 there are other times when that there isn't a truck seen, and we actually 286 00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:56,240 think it's quite possible that he may be using the boat. It's terrifying to 287 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:00,000 think about it. It is, It truly is. And I think to 288 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:06,960 myself as a much younger man kissing with a girlfriend and Lover's Lanes up in 289 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,400 Massachusetts and various places we lived when I was a teenager, and we weren't 290 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,960 thinking about stuff like that. We were enjoying each other's company, listening to 291 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,240 music, being romantic. It's terrifying when you think about it. Yeah, 292 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,480 there are times when I think to myself, it's entirely possible that Wilmer could 293 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,720 have pulled these things off alone. And we know he was armed. We 294 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:37,000 know that he shot Robin Edwards and David Nobling to death, so there's a 295 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:41,440 gun involved. So that's a great way to assert control. As Jim Clemente 296 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,559 demonstrated for us when we shot the Lover's Lane Murders series for Oxygen a few 297 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:52,559 years ago, it's entirely possible for a well prepared individual to do a blitz 298 00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:59,039 attack where he comes at you. You're a couple sitting there with your boyfriend 299 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,440 or girlfriend and you or not paying a lot of attention to what's going on 300 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:04,000 around you, and the next thing you know, there's a man at the 301 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:07,720 window, and maybe he's got a gun or maybe he's got a knife. 302 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:12,599 It's really frightening. But I do think he could have pulled this off alone. 303 00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:15,799 Yeah, I agree. All that being said, though, there are 304 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,440 times, and I've been to these crime scenes a number of times, often 305 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:26,160 with investigators, where the logistics of the movement and staging of the vehicles feels 306 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:32,839 so complicated that I can't help but think he could have had an accomplice. 307 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,160 And this is where Robert really gets into something super interesting. Do you think 308 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:42,599 others were involved after the fact, Even if someone might not necessarily have been 309 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:48,240 there at the time of the murders, it's possible that an accomplice could have 310 00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:55,640 assisted Wilmer in the movement of the cars and trucks and the staging of the 311 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,920 vehicles, and those two things that the lover's lay and the staging of the 312 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,880 vehicles after the fact, those are two, as one of the investigators said 313 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,400 to me several years ago, these are the two hallmarks of the Colonial Parkway 314 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,039 murders. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this 315 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:26,960 word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Yeah. I'm 316 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:32,000 especially thinking about the Phelps lower case and the movement of cars and bodies, 317 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,440 and you would almost have to have had someone with Kathy and Becky's case if 318 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,799 he is in fact responsible for Kathy and Becky. And I am increasingly convinced 319 00:26:41,799 --> 00:26:45,119 that he is that one. I could see him managing that one on his 320 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,000 own. I was talking to a friend today about this, because this is 321 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:53,960 all that I talk about with anyone anymore serial killers in this case that's sad 322 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,279 it is. But this person who's very interested in this case, and so 323 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:00,359 we spent a lot of time I'm talking about it and he asks, can 324 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,759 you tell me what's going on in the world a true crime? And I'll 325 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,759 tell him he was asking this very same question earlier, and he said, 326 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,319 what do you think about this whole accomplice thing? And he said, do 327 00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:12,240 you want my two cents? And I said, I always want your two 328 00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:17,000 cents absolutely, And he said, look as somebody who is on the shorter 329 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,400 side, which means he's my height, and I'm five to seven, almost 330 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,960 five eight. He said, I have learned that you are sometimes at a 331 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,359 disadvantage if you were not a tall person. And he said, but a 332 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,960 gun is a great equalizer. He doesn't know that from actual experience. He 333 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,359 just knows that he is somebody who carries. And he said, a gun 334 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,960 is a great equalizer. And I can very easily imagine a situation where he 335 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:48,240 would walk up to Kathy or to Becky and the best way to control physically 336 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,960 fit, fiery Kathy Thomas, The best way to control her is put a 337 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,240 gun on Becky and say, do the wrong thing and I shoot your girlfriend. 338 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,720 Yep, I can see that. And he made five five yeah, 339 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:04,519 which I do think needs to be emphasized just how short and muscular he was. 340 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,559 You put a gun in someone's hand and they're ten feet tall. The 341 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:11,319 gun is the great equalizer, is what he said. And I one hundred 342 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,279 percent agree with that. Could I see that being the case with Kathy and 343 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,559 Becky and with Robin and David? Yeah? Absolutely. Can I see him 344 00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,599 handling the staging of David's truck by himself with a boat anchored offshore, Yeah, 345 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,759 I can see that. I think it gets more difficult with Keith and 346 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,000 Sandy, and I think it gets more difficult with Anna, Marie and Daniel. 347 00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:33,640 At that point, maybe he did decide, Hey, I need somebody 348 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,680 to help me do the cars. Maybe he evolved a lot of the things 349 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:41,880 that our profiler friends have said over the years is that serial killers do evolve 350 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:45,160 over time. If this guy tracks the way that I think he tracks, 351 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:49,279 he spent a good amount of time for the first couple of years trying to 352 00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:55,240 figure out how do I make bodies disappear? And he finally figured it out 353 00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:57,680 with Keith and Sandy. That's why we haven't found them yet. He finally 354 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,519 figured out a way to make people will disappear in a body of water. 355 00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,359 I think that he evolved, and so I do think there's a possibility that 356 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,720 he could have done maybe the first couple by himself, but I can see 357 00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:11,680 him needing an accomplice later. And of course that is the sixty four thousand 358 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,680 dollars question. Now, if he did have an accomplice, who is that 359 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:18,839 person? Are they still alive? Is there any way if that person is 360 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:25,160 still alive, that we can leverage this information somehow. We've definitely addressed portions 361 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,160 of this, But let's go ahead and dig back in what significance, if 362 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,720 any, do you think Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's background as a waterman, hunter, 363 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,839 outdoorsman, and owner of a tree service business play in his involvement in 364 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,559 the Colonial Parkway murders cases. Can you spend some time on this subject for 365 00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:44,000 a minute and talk about how he fits or does not fit into past profiles 366 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:49,079 done by experts. I think there's an excellent fit here because early on in 367 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680 nineteen eighty six, before the rest of the murders had even taken place, 368 00:29:52,960 --> 00:30:00,279 they said they thought that a waterman was an extremely likely a here. Now 369 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:06,920 they also talked about law enforcement, and they talked about being approached by someone 370 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,480 in law enforcement or someone presenting as such. They talked about an authority figure 371 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,519 quite a bit, but the waterman theory was definitely part of the mix, 372 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:22,400 and they did look very hard at people that were in the waterman category. 373 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,480 So I think Alan Wade Wilmer's background as a waterman, hunter, outdoorsman, 374 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,680 and even the owner of a tree service I think they're incredibly significant. And 375 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:38,559 as we heard from retired investigators who had him under surveillance back in the nineteen 376 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,559 eighty five eighty six time frame, when he was suspected of being involved in 377 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:47,680 the murder of Mary Harding. They talked about the fact that this guy was 378 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,160 capable of going into the woods and just disappearing, and he could hunt his 379 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,160 own food, it could fish. He could literally disappear into the woods for 380 00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:02,680 weeks at a time if necessity. So he's comfortable in the woods, he's 381 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:07,680 comfortable on the water. He's an expert marksman and archer. He is an 382 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:14,480 excellent sailor, so he's completely comfortable in all of these varied environments. I 383 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:18,160 think this is really important, and I think this is one of the reasons 384 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,640 that Wilmer was able to get away with what I believe will ultimately be seen 385 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,920 as a series of rapes and murders. I think he may have been getting 386 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,839 away with this stuff for as long as forty years. It's because he's so 387 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:36,839 brilliant at the outdoors and the disappearing act, that he's capable of doing a 388 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:41,559 blending in and living off the land and the water. While he's quietly going 389 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:47,359 about his business, he's also looking for potential victims, and I think he's 390 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,640 found a number of them far beyond the ones that have been identified so far. 391 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:53,880 Oh yeah, I agree on that. The other part of this question 392 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,160 that's interesting is does he fit or not fit into past profiles done by experts. 393 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:04,559 I will tell you I would give several fancy steak dinners to know what 394 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:10,839 exactly the bau's original profile of this case was. I would pay so much 395 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,279 money to have that information me too, because I really want to know what 396 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:20,720 was the original assessment of this case. What did the BAU think of it? 397 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,480 We know it was brought up in front of the BAU at some point, 398 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:25,279 we do not know which agents worked on it. I would again give 399 00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:30,160 my iteeth to know this. There is so much information there that I really 400 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,240 want and I would love to know. How does it fit in with the 401 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,400 BA you said. I'm hoping somebody out there will be kind enough to provide 402 00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:44,640 some of that information. I would love to know. It is very interesting 403 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:49,839 to think about the next question is have any personal items, physical receipts, 404 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,359 bank records, vehicles belongings been collected as evidence since his passing and since his 405 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,680 identification as the perpetrator in the Edwards Noveling and how Cases. Has his former 406 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:06,119 residence and property been searched in recent years. I don't think we can get 407 00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:09,200 into a ton of detail on this, but no, give it a shot. 408 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:15,279 I think that the long list these are things I am highly confident that 409 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,279 the FBI and the Virginia State Police will be looking at. I know that 410 00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:23,039 when he was a tree service guy, We've talked to people who hired his 411 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:29,599 company, and they said he was very interested in cash and cash only. 412 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,839 He would only take cash for his services. I heard recently that he would 413 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,240 carry a bag and a gun in the cab of whatever truck he was driving, 414 00:33:38,359 --> 00:33:43,160 and the bag usually had five thousand dollars in cash in it and a 415 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,759 handgun. Now, whatever happened to that money and that handgun. And I'm 416 00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:50,799 sure the money went up and down depending on what was going on with his 417 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,160 various businesses. But I think he tried to fly under the radar as often 418 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,559 as possible. I'm highly confident the law enforcement agencies would be looking into all 419 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,960 these things. I will say this, since this part's been public, we 420 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:09,239 do know that his former residents and property were searched back on January fourth, 421 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,519 twenty twenty four, because a raid was conducted at that home. Now that's 422 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,519 the home that he died in in December twenty seventeen. If I'm not mistaken, 423 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,039 I believe his son lives there now with his family, But we don't 424 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:28,599 know a lot more about that, and law enforcement is not cuing us into 425 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,719 what they're looking at. These are things that the FBI and the Virginia State 426 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,559 Police are looking at for sure. Related to that question, is the next 427 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:40,159 one has any electronic evidence browser history, phone records, bank records, hard 428 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,719 drives, emails been investigated and surveilled. I ask because while these crimes were 429 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,719 committed in the pre digital era, it does not necessarily mean electronic evidence implicating 430 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,159 his involvement after the fact does not exist. And he mentions the browser history 431 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,000 in the Lisk cases. Yeah, I'm not trying to be flip here. 432 00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:02,960 I'm highly kind confident that FBI and Virginia State Police would be looking at this 433 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,400 kind of thing. I know they did a very thorough search of his home 434 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:13,199 and the surrounding grounds, and I'm sure they'd be looking for cell phones, 435 00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:16,920 computers, and other digital devices. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that. 436 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,519 Do you have any information on the geographic area covered by Alan Wade Wilmer 437 00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:28,159 senior's tree removal business and specific job site locations. Have any of those locations 438 00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:31,000 been searched for evidence? Great questions. I really wish we could answer more 439 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,760 of it. Yeah, these are things that are not being shared with us 440 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,159 by law enforcement. Again, I would think so it seems to make perfect 441 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,000 sense to me. Now we are just civilians. I think they're going to 442 00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:45,960 be looking at all of this stuff. Now. Remember, Wilmer definitely tries 443 00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:51,320 to fly under the radar in that latter part of his life when he transitioned 444 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,480 out of being a waterman. And by the way, some people have pointed 445 00:35:54,559 --> 00:36:00,400 out to us recently that a lot of watermen got out of the business in 446 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:07,440 the late nineteen eighties because there were some pretty serious problems with water quality and 447 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,360 this whole Save the Bay thing and all the discussion that was going on around 448 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,679 water quality. But as I understand it, and I'm reading a little bit 449 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,079 more about this, in the late eighties, the quality of the water plunged 450 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:27,000 and as a result, the crabbing an oystering business fell off dramatically because the 451 00:36:27,199 --> 00:36:30,280 critters were not doing well. Yeah, that's where the Save the Bay initiative 452 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,440 came from. This may have a lot to do with Wilmer's decision to get 453 00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:38,679 into the tree business and to get out of the waterman business. It's also 454 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,400 worth noting something Elan Waide Wilmer Senior was a highly intelligent man. In my 455 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:49,400 opinion. He got away with rape and murder for perhaps as long as forty 456 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,039 years, extending all the way back into the seventies. He was smart enough 457 00:36:54,159 --> 00:37:00,840 to recognize that he needed to get the heck off the Colonial Parkway after he 458 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,199 was looked at and had a pretty close encounter actually with the FBI. This 459 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,000 whole thing, with the interrogation and the search warrant and the polygraphic examination. 460 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,440 I'm not saying it scared him straight, because I believe he then turned right 461 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,360 around and killed Teresa Howell and more than likely Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower. 462 00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:23,639 But you'll notice how he's not hunting on the parkway on the Parkway anymore 463 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:30,480 because that's federal property, that's the FBI. I think he wanted nothing further 464 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:36,039 to do with them because he realized he'd actually had a very close encounter there 465 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:39,320 with federal rew enforcement. Yeah, some of the other cases that people have 466 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:45,119 been bringing to our attention took place in Chesapeake, for example, which is 467 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,320 also not the Colonial Parkway. And there's even one down on the Carolina Line 468 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,119 in Kurtch County, which again not the Parkway. So I do think you're 469 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:58,440 right Bill that, after that close call with the FBI and being polygraphed and 470 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,800 getting away with it, sure at that point he was like, and we're 471 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:07,960 good here. It's time for other places to go. Do profilers you've spoken 472 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:13,039 to think Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible or involved in the other Colonial Parkway 473 00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:15,840 murders cases? If so, which ones and why. The people we've talked 474 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,199 to seem to think that he may be good for all four and many others. 475 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:27,039 They don't think that there are year long gaps between his attacks. They 476 00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:32,679 think that he is out looking for a variety of different potential victims. Interestingly, 477 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,440 one of our profiler friends said recently that they thought that Wilmer was looking 478 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:44,679 for variety, which is why he liked attacking singles as well as the challenge. 479 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,880 If you think about it of taking on a young, healthy couple, 480 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:53,679 that becomes even more of a challenge to successfully subdue and kill two people. 481 00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:59,679 We should always remember that this is about power and control and rage. Yes, 482 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,119 this man is full of rage, which is expressed in these horrific attacks 483 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:12,639 against singles and couples. But I think he is constantly looking for something new 484 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:19,159 and different. We had asked Jim Fitzgerald and doctor Ray Carr about whether they 485 00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:25,159 thought that Wilmer Senior was a opportunistic or preferential offender, and I really liked 486 00:39:25,199 --> 00:39:31,079 their answer. They said, very likely preferential, but he'llt he's opportunistic and 487 00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:35,880 that he'll take whatever he can get singles, couples, whoever happens to be 488 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,039 around whenever the urge strikes, and I get because I have never had law 489 00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:45,079 enforcement training or profiling training, I get stuck into the boxes of it all. 490 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,119 And it didn't occur to me until fitz and Ray said it that you 491 00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:52,840 can be both. It doesn't happen to be one or the other. And 492 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,599 I really liked the way that they put that because it made me Yeah, 493 00:39:55,679 --> 00:39:59,599 So it isn't You're not just checking one box or the other. It could 494 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:01,719 be both. But if it's the same way that an offender can be both 495 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:07,119 organized and organized, you can have mixed presentation. You've got elements of both 496 00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,519 in there. It always broadens my thinking to talk to Fitz and Ray and 497 00:40:10,599 --> 00:40:16,760 Jim Clemente and all of our other law enforcement friends who have been so generous 498 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,079 with their time and energy, and most especially Laura Richards, who has really 499 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:24,599 given me a lot of good insight and a lot of great things to think 500 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:30,239 about. They have really leapt into this case and taken the time to give 501 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,239 us sort of the masterclass in profiling that neither of us ever had. Because 502 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,159 we're not law enforcement, we're getting it the hard way, but we're getting 503 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:42,719 it in the best possible way. But I really liked what fits and doctor 504 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,039 Ray had to say the other day, and so that's really my approach to 505 00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:51,880 it now is broader strokes and not stuck into boxes. What type of momentum 506 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,239 do you think this recent development in the Edwards Noveling and Howell cases has to 507 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:02,000 push the other unsolved cases forward. I hope this will provide a powerful push. 508 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,199 The communication, as always between the families and the law enforcement agencies, 509 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:14,159 is terrible, and they are not good about letting us know what's going on. 510 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:16,960 Obviously, we know that we have good news. I would call it 511 00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:22,960 for Robin Edwards and David Knobling's families, and we genuinely are thrilled about that. 512 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,719 I recognize that learning who killed your loved one isn't great news, but 513 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,400 when you've been looking for answers for thirty five years, it's important and I 514 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,440 think it's a positive development and I hope it gives them some comfort. The 515 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,599 same thing for Teresa Howell, who's a family who we haven't yet met, 516 00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:45,440 but I hope that we will soon. For the family of Keith Colin Cassandra 517 00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:51,039 Hailey, this is a very frustrating time now because they were told by the 518 00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:55,719 FBI agents that they are ninety nine percent certain that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior is 519 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,519 responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith calling Cassandra Haley. But we're 520 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:06,880 not quite there at answers and now for the rest of us, Thomas Sowski 521 00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:12,679 and Phelps Lower, we're still waiting. We're happy for the other families, 522 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,440 and we all work together as a team to try to keep this case moving 523 00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:21,679 forward. I would be less than honest if I didn't say that this is 524 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:27,000 a difficult time for all of us who don't yet have answers. I'm hopeful 525 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,679 that the momentum will be created and that the Virginia State Police and the FBI 526 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,679 will do their absolute best to get answers for all of us in the Colonial 527 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:42,400 Parkway murders. I think this has been a revivifying moment for this investigation, 528 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,280 and I just hope that the momentum holds. I hope that they carry it 529 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:52,039 through to the end, because the Thomases and the Dawskis, and the Phelps 530 00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:57,320 and the Lowers deserve answers. I really just hope, and dare I even 531 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,400 say it, pray that this will get us across the finish line finally, 532 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,239 so that we have not justice, there is no way for there to be 533 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,840 justice, so that there will be answers for these families, which is really 534 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,639 what we all want, and I think we're all on the same team about 535 00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:15,079 that. Robert, thank you so much for the amazing questions, and thank 536 00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:20,960 you to everyone who has been tuning in interacting with us on our social media 537 00:43:21,039 --> 00:43:25,679 pages asking questions. We are doing this with all the hope in the world 538 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,599 that this case will eventually be solved, but we could not continue to do 539 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,880 it without all of your support, So we thank you all very much for 540 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,320 continuing to tune in to engage with us on the Facebook page, and please 541 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:43,320 continue to send in any tips to investigators that you may have. There is 542 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,400 no tip that is too small. If there is any information that you think 543 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,519 you can provide about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and his whereabouts or his associates or 544 00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:57,599 anything related to that, please make that call. There is nothing insignificant about 545 00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:01,440 what you can offer. You can contact the fa at one eight hundred call 546 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:08,760 FBI or submitting a tip online at tips dot FBI dot gov. And you 547 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:15,679 can also reach out to the Virginia State Police by email at Questions at VSP 548 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:22,360 dot Virginia dot gov. We want to encourage anyone who has any information to 549 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,440 come forward now that is going to do it for this episode of Mindover Murder. 550 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:39,840 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mindover 551 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:46,280 Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers 552 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:52,039 are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 553 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:58,000 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with 554 00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:02,119 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 555 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,280 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, 556 00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:10,840 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five 557 00:45:12,000 --> 00:46:00,159 six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder m