WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.720 --> 00:05:12.480 That's that's that's unnumber. What is going on? Everyone? Welcome to another 2 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:15.360 episode of Faith Unaltered. I am your host, Tyler Fowler with me as 3 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.879 my coach. Two co hosts David Russell, Delle Glover, a good buddy 4 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:25.319 of ours, Dane von Ason or two guests, Doctor Bo Branson and Jay 5 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:29.920 Dyer himself. Guys, how are you doing tonight? It's good to be 6 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.399 with you all. David, what's up? Brother? How are you doing? 7 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.480 Another week? Brother in the books? Doing all right? Man? 8 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.319 How are you not bad? Not bad? I'm tired, bro, long 9 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.759 week, you know, just garbage. But I'm excited to have this conversation 10 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.600 tonight. So for those that don't know the background to all of this, 11 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:48.240 right, all of the Orthodox shows we've been doing, because we've been putting 12 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.120 out a number of them. We've had a couple of debates with Father Jonathan 13 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:56.920 ivan Off, Samuel Fragg, and we've just been talking Orthodoxy and so for 14 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:01.040 those that don't know, I'm really investigating Orthodoxy so much so that I become 15 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:06.639 a Catechuman in the Orthodox Church. What's interesting is that both Dale and David 16 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:12.920 are trying to keep me from going that way, but I like I said, 17 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.199 I'm investigating. I want to know the truth, and I don't care 18 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.920 what I labeled myself. I just want to follow Jesus the correct way, 19 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:24.279 right. And so we've been exploring orthodoxy, and so I have two very 20 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.439 qualified individuals with us tonight to help me out with that. We're going to 21 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:32.959 talk about solo script Torah jaydyar Bo Branson and this. Guys. I'm ready 22 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.399 to I'm ready to kick this off, Dane. Before we do get started, 23 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.680 Dan and Dale, how have you guys been Deale? Go ahead, 24 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.759 Yeah, I've been good. Just did a show earlier this morning on s 25 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.360 J. Thomason's channel that was on my shred of trend, So we were 26 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:55.439 looking at the medieval history of it and looking at the thirteen eighty nine Darcy 27 00:06:55.560 --> 00:07:00.319 memorandum. So yeah, this is my second show today, so he must 28 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.639 be tired as well. Oh I'm not as tired. I mean I'm used 29 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:09.079 to doing four or five shows a week. So next week show today, 30 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:14.079 I am tired officially. So uh. He jerks some red cream soda, 31 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.319 so he's ready to go. There is some good energy in the Canadian ring 32 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.079 cream soda. Guess right on, right on, Dane, how you doing, 33 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:26.600 brother, Yo, I'm great. It's fun to be back on faith 34 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.000 unaltered. Always a pleasure. Um. I had a busy week. I've 35 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:35.319 been in Memphis for my church. Is like annual conference. It's more than 36 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:39.639 I need to explain, but just a big church conference. And uh got 37 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:44.839 back home last night and went to the last night of vacation Bible School at 38 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.160 our church. So that one night of VBS wore me out more than the 39 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:53.279 whole conference from the past three days. So um, but I'm doing good. 40 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.879 I'm I'm in good spirits. Happy to be here to discuss solo script 41 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.920 tour with y'all. It's gonna be a fun show, believe so I do 42 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:05.120 believe. So all right, So without further ado, I will let our 43 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.920 guests introduce theirselves, take a couple of minutes tell our audience about you guys. 44 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.680 We'll start with Jay. Jay, Welcome and thank you for doing this. 45 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.720 I was excited to meet you Cup. What about a month ago now 46 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.680 you visited or Parish and that was a good conversation when we had a little 47 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.399 bit of dialogue together, and so I was excited that you you agreed to 48 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.839 come on here and talk solo script tour with us. So how are you 49 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.720 doing, and how's how's how's it been since we've seen each other. Great, 50 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:33.759 Yeah, it was really cool. I didn't realize, like I said, 51 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.200 you guys are so close. I would have come to meet doctor Branson 52 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.120 much sooner if I'd known that he was that close. I assumed, you 53 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.679 know, when you hear other states, you think four or five six hours 54 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.759 away, But you guys are only two hours away. So yeah, we 55 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.919 had a great weekend up there with you guys, and uh got to meet 56 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.480 everybody, and yeah, it was it was cool to chat. And I 57 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.639 remember you were asking about you know, solo scriptura and other issues like tradition 58 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.759 and church fathers. And I'm happy to discuss that I've had quite a few 59 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:09.240 exchanges over the years with various Protestant pastors and apologists, and I myself the 60 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.200 Protestant Bible College for a while. So so yeah, I feel like I 61 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.360 can, you know, hopefully have a good perspective on both sides of it 62 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.759 to contribute to the conversation. And what I do is do a lot of 63 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.320 debates, do a lot of movie analysis, do a lot of geopolitics. 64 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:30.519 Hosts the fourth hour of he who cannot be named every Friday. What else 65 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:31.600 do we do? We do you live events now, so we do. 66 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:37.320 We do comedy and philosophy talks and all kinds of stuff. So you can 67 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.080 find me on YouTube or on rock fin or any of the other social media 68 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:45.320 outlets right on. And I do have your channel in the description of this 69 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:46.799 video, so if anybody wants that, they can just go down there and 70 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:50.399 click it and I'll lead you right to it. Doctor bo Branson, how 71 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.840 are you doing, my friend? Now? We met from the Orthodox church 72 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.480 that you attend and that I attend now, and so how are you doing, 73 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.600 brother? And how's it been since the last time I've seen you. 74 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.960 I'm doing all right. I don't have a whole whole ton of news like 75 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.519 everybody else. I've just been writing this whole summer. So during life. 76 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.799 Do you want to plug your book that you're writing? Um, sure, 77 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.639 yeah, I'm in the middle of writing. It's going to be like a 78 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:22.240 four views book about the Trinity, so it'll have it'll be me, William 79 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.799 Lane, Craig Dale, Tuggy, and Bill Hasker. So I'm in the 80 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.080 middle of finishing up my my criticisms of William Lane Craig as we speak, 81 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.960 so right on, Yeah, it should be interesting. I think it should 82 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.039 be out sometime maybe the end of the year or something like that. So 83 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.159 okay, keep us updated and I'll keep people updated on my end for sure. 84 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:48.080 So I'm excited to hear about that. But all right, guys, 85 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.799 let's jump into it, shall we. I'm like I said, I'm I'm 86 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:58.919 excited because here's the thing. So I don't what I don't want to accomplish 87 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:03.919 in this discussion. I don't want to merely destroy Solo Scriptur or anything like 88 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:07.519 that if proven false. What I want to do is be able to present 89 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.360 our listeners with a more robust, a stronger alternative to solo script tour. 90 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.240 And so to start out, I think, um, and you, guys, 91 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:22.200 we'll start with Jay if you want, can you present us a positive 92 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:31.080 case for the infallibility and authority for both Scripture and the Orthodox tradition? Yeah? 93 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.080 I can. Um, Well, I make I can give you what 94 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.000 how I would argue that. Um. But I did have one question before 95 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.759 we started. I'm not trying to be rude or anything. I'm just curious 96 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:45.320 what type of Protestant tradition do you guys? Come from, would you say 97 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:50.600 classical Protestant Reformed or like evangelical Lutheran? What what what Protestant tradition are we 98 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:56.840 talking about? So I came from a Protestant uh so Southern Baptist Reformed, 99 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:01.559 so reform Southern Baptist tradition, and our other two Protestant buddies here are they. 100 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:07.320 I'm evangelical, I guess, like you know, we do only Craig 101 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.200 Michael those types. Okay, I would say the same as Dale. Okay, 102 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.960 yeah, I'm just curious. I'm a theological mutt, as they say. 103 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.279 Yeah, Josh says, you know, because that just because that can 104 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.799 kind of there can be a kind of a range of levels to which, 105 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:26.879 you know, people in the Protestant world may or may not give credence to 106 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.960 tradition. So it just kind of depends on, you know what, how 107 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.159 far back I guess in history we're talking about. But so the question is 108 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:39.320 what relatively quick argument? I guess what I give for the infallibility of scriptures, 109 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:43.639 and what the Orthodox Church being the also infallible church is that what the 110 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.759 question was just the just the authority of the Orthodox tradition versus like a Roman 111 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.320 Catholic tradition or something like that. Okay, so I would say that that 112 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.559 would be twofold. First argument I would make is that from scripture itself, 113 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:03.840 there's a cont tenuity of revelation that comes from the Old Testament time when we 114 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.000 didn't have what we could say is a fixed canon per se. Even though 115 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.960 in the Old Testament period we did have vine revelation that was conveyed through both 116 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.399 an oral and a written means. Eventually, as you know, Moses, 117 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.759 Joshua and the prophets write their text down prior to that. However, it's 118 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.600 not written down, it's it's oral. So I think one thing that we 119 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.000 could derive from that that we would all I think agree on if we unless 120 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:33.159 we're higher textual liberals or something, is that the the ability of to to 121 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:37.799 transmit the information orally is something that God can providentially do right, so that 122 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:45.679 there's nothing that prevents God's providence from maintaining and preserving the tradition that's passed on 123 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:52.799 from Adam to Abraham. That's that's uh that's not written down, right, 124 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.720 so he can still do that. So when the text begin the reblish begins 125 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.000 to be written down, we might assume that there we would toss away the 126 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:07.279 oral testimony. But one thing that's interesting, and all the research that I've 127 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.080 read, and aside from maybe Torah, only Jews that would argue, or 128 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:18.080 the Karaites or something, most Judaism historians and rabbi rabbinical history would agree that 129 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.279 there was not a soul of scripture a principle going on in the Old Testament 130 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.519 period or the period of the Moses and the Profits. So, for example, 131 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.720 we read in Isaiah speaks of the to the law and to the testimony, 132 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.360 right, the law being, of course the first five books, primarily 133 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.799 testimony being the prophets, and perhaps even the interpretive structure that the prophets themselves 134 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.679 might give to the law of Moses and to such a prior revelation. So 135 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.399 you know, when we have small texts like Zephaniah or something like this, 136 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:56.720 or other Old Testament minor prophets that are called preachers, right, in other 137 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:01.679 words, they were exted. They weren't just having one sentence of divine revelation 138 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.279 or exhuming one paragraph of a chapter of vine revelation. They may, but 139 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.559 they might have also been preachers. And so this is a preaching is a 140 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:15.360 prophetic office, and that doesn't always necessarily refer to predicting the future. And 141 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:18.320 I known a lot of you guys already know that. But there's a reason 142 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:22.639 I'm saying that, which is that they would be exeguting and expounding the law, 143 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.080 and then as subsequent revelation came, it would be also executed and expounded. 144 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.879 But again, at no point in any of that timeframe and the Old 145 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:37.360 Testament is that divine revelation restricted to only following the written text. And one 146 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.039 way we know that is that when we get to the New Testament, when 147 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.720 we have the fulfillment of a lot of the prophecies and a lot of what 148 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.879 the Old Testament types were looking forward to. We have places in the Gospels 149 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.720 where Jesus refers to traditions. Now I understand that as a Protestant, and 150 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:56.240 Unite said, well, but Jesus as God, so he can refer to 151 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.360 whatever traditions he wants to, and they therefore be come infallible, you know, 152 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.279 because he sort of references them or looks back to them. And but 153 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.360 I would argue that we don't just see that ending with Christ. We see 154 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.200 this as a continuing principle even after the death of the last Apostle. This 155 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.879 is why, for example, we have the you know, the phrase that 156 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.720 out of Egypt, my son came out of Egypt, right, which which 157 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.639 is not a specific reference of anything in the Old Testament. It's interpreted to 158 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:30.919 be either allegorical or or from Josea or one of the other passages, or 159 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:37.080 it's interpreted to be a reference to an extra canonical text. We have many 160 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.679 references to extra canonical texts as well, again also from the Old Testament. 161 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.559 So you have, for example, references to the books of the Wars of 162 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.240 the Lord. You have the references of the New Testament to the Book of 163 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:53.279 Enoch, And so for us, that suggests that divine revelation is not necessarily 164 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.679 limited to only the written texts. Right. So you might say, well, 165 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.160 but it's still solves scriptura, because really only that text that's referenced in 166 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.400 the Book of Jude from Enich is the only infallible aspect. Everything else is 167 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:15.400 doubtable or doubtful. Excuse me, and I would say that if we restricted 168 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.720 ourselves to a few examples, that might be the case. However, the 169 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.200 best argumentation, I think is when we get to the way that the prophets 170 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.640 aresuming the way the Apostles preached. We find in Paul's epistles and in Peter's 171 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.039 epistles the statement that they preach the word of God, and preaching the word 172 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.160 of God during this Apostolic period is not restricted to simply citing the text, 173 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.200 right, it would be all the oral teaching of the Apostles. So, 174 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:47.519 for example, when Paul says that he commissioned Timothy, and I would argue 175 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.880 that from the two letters to Timothy, he's making Timothy the Bishop of Ephesus. 176 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:53.480 He says, I laid hands on you, Timothy. Timothy, you 177 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.240 then lay hands on men after you who are able to transmit this body of 178 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.200 doctrine that's being handed to you. And he talks about all the things that 179 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:04.680 you heard in the presence of many witnesses. We go to the Book of 180 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.200 Acts. We know that Paul taught in emphasis for three years, day and 181 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:15.720 night. So Paul was, you know, expositing and teaching far more orally 182 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:21.039 than what he wrote, you see, And so that whole body of Apostolic 183 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:26.839 Pauline interpretation is what he's committed to Timothy to hand down. And you'll notice 184 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.599 by the way that this is intimately tied to the succession of the bishoprics, 185 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.079 the laying on of the hands, and even goes so far as to say 186 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:40.160 that I appointed you Timothy in Ephesis. No one else has appointed in emphasis 187 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.960 according to Paul's succession there. So that means that in the city of Ephesis, 188 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:52.720 that at that Apostolic time there's literally only one correct believing church in Ephesis, 189 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.119 that's the one that's quote orthodox, right, the correct believing one. 190 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.960 Likewise, the apostles then went out and did the same thing. And we 191 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.559 know, I think, because we have the presupposition of divine inspiration and divine 192 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.640 providence, we know that they weren't teaching different things, right, So Paul 193 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:14.279 wasn't teaching something different theologically ultimately than maybe what was being taught somewhere else. 194 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:15.720 If there was a disagreement, we know that acts fifteam, we have the 195 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:22.400 Jerusalem Council and the decision of coming together and deciding, okay, let's not 196 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.680 require of the gentiles more than was expected of them in the no way of 197 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.000 covenant right for admission into the church. If God, if Noah can be 198 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:37.200 righteous before God prior to Abraham and the giving of circumcision, then circumcision can't 199 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.680 be absolutely necessary for righteousness before God. Therefore, they come to this decision 200 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:47.200 on the basis of again not just citing the Texas Scripture. They do cite 201 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.559 the Texas Scription, but there's references, is what I'm saying, even in 202 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:55.759 the Book of Acts, to non canonical things, to extra biblical things, 203 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:00.319 principal traditions, for example, is more blessed to give than to receive acts, 204 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.960 says Jesus taught. Of course, we don't have any written record of 205 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.359 Jesus teaching that. A couple more examples, you know, Jesus says in 206 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.200 Matthew twenty three that the scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. 207 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:15.440 That's the cathedral in the Greek and that's the idea of a cathedral, 208 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.680 the bishop sitting in the seat of the cathedral, right, so Moses. 209 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.079 So when ezra Is set up what we know of as the rabbinical system or 210 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:29.440 the synagogue system, this was so that Israel could have teachers that weren't just 211 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.240 located in Jerusalem, right, so you could have a teaching of the law 212 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.640 throughout the land of Israel. This is where we get allah Ezra the synagogue 213 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.319 system. So Jesus is essentially saying that it is the tradition in the church. 214 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:48.720 Excuse in the first century worship temple synagogue worship service, the presupposition is 215 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.039 the scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. Therefore do as 216 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.079 they say, but not do as they do. There's no text to anywhere 217 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:00.759 in the Old Testament that explains this authoritative succession of a seat of Moses. 218 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:06.000 Therefore, it is a tradition that Jesus is recognizing and accepting. And we 219 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.559 can think of many, many other examples. And I'm gonna try to finish 220 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.559 this up soon. And note, you're good. I mean you ask a 221 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.200 tough question. It's like, can you prove your whole system? And like 222 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:23.039 one right, So so you know we have we have other textual references. 223 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.559 One I wanted to mention too that just came to mind. In the Book 224 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:34.680 of Chronicles, we have the reference that Hezekiah organized the worship. I think 225 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.519 this is where I'm going for memory. Hezekiah organized the liturgical worship as laid 226 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:45.799 down by his father David, and it talks about not just the liturgical worship 227 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.680 in the sense of having an altar and having you know, the libitical ceremonies. 228 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.920 It's the actual service, the liturgical worship service, and it's ordering with 229 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.599 the music and the symbols and all this kind of stuff. So this is 230 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.119 based on tradition. Now we know that God's very concerned with how we worship 231 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.359 him because in the story what is it Lyticus ten or eleven, they'd having 232 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:08.119 a buye who offers strange fire and God doesn't accept that. So, you 233 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.559 know, many Protestants, if you're a classical Reform Protestant, you'll talk about 234 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.799 the regular principal worship, that we can't worship God in any way or in 235 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.759 any pattern other than what He's given us, and believe it or not. 236 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.880 As Orthodox, I think we would argue, yeah, you're correct. However, 237 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:27.799 when we come to the New Testament, we don't actually have the specific 238 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.039 pattern of how the service is supposed to be conducted. I understand that, 239 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:37.000 yes, Paul and Corinthians limits us about certain abuses, and he says, 240 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.599 don't celebrate the cup getting drunk and fornicating, and don't do this, but 241 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:47.079 there's not actually an explicit order of the service just like there was no explicit 242 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.519 written pattern of how the worship service was to be conducted, and yet we're 243 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:56.759 tolding chronicles that haze Kaya ordered the service according to the pattern of his father 244 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.119 David. I think David was two to fifty years, you know, before 245 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:06.559 Hezekias. So there was this tradition as to how the liturgical worship of Israel 246 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:10.799 was to be done. Now, coming to my final points here, I 247 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:14.359 would argue that in terms of soul of script era, when we get into 248 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:18.880 the post Apostolic period, we find the church fathers, especially in the first 249 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.880 three centuries, many of them absolutely citing texts, many of them citing mini 250 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:29.400 texts, and because of that textual witness, we can reconstruct fairly accurate, 251 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:34.759 fairly consistent Gospel. There's an attestations, what I'm trying to say, from 252 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:40.240 these first three century church fathers. For example, in Aranaises against Heresies from 253 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.279 about one eighty, there's a ton of texts that are cited, right, 254 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.759 so you could you could compile kind of what Aranais knew of as the Bible 255 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:51.880 pretty well. But what we don't we still don't get for these three centuries, 256 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.839 is any clear pattern or idea of what the absolute canon of scripture is. 257 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.920 Now we get Marcion, who's one of the first to set up his 258 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.119 own canon. So actually the first idea of a specific cannon comes from a 259 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:11.079 heretic, and it still ironically doesn't prompt the Church at this point to actually 260 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.160 lay out a definitive cannon of scripture. And for the Orthodox, we have 261 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.880 obviously a little bit of different disagreement with the Roman Catholics because they typically cite 262 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:25.200 certain councils under Pope Damesis and during the time of Augustine for their Canada scripture. 263 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.839 We because we don't defer to just papal fiat and authority, we're not 264 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.279 immediately going to accept that. However, it is attestation to the fact that 265 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.480 in the West, in the days of Augustine, it was pretty clearly understood 266 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.440 that the Deutero canonical texts were absolutely part of the Canada scripture. In the 267 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.839 East, there are varying canons and all we can go to some of the 268 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:51.680 academic literature that I have from evangelical scholars, I usually try to restrict my 269 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.960 citation and sourcing when this debate comes up to Protestant evangelical scholars. One of 270 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.920 the great books on this is by Lee McDonald Formation the Christian Biblical Cannon, 271 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.279 and at the back of the text he gives an appendix. It's very helpful 272 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:10.319 for showing between Old Testament and New Testament, the differing canons that were pretty 273 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:14.160 popular in different church fathers and in different centuries. So for example, and 274 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.359 again I'm going to wrap up at this point here to try to make it 275 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.240 very quick, and then I'll tie you in how this relates to the infallibility 276 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:25.599 the church. But for example, when we look at some of the earliest 277 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.400 lists of the Canada Scripture, for example, the Old Testament we have in 278 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:33.480 the fourth and fifth century, we have the predominant canons of Milito, Sartis, 279 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:40.960 Origin, Athanasius, and Cyril Jerusalem, as well as Epiphanius and Gregory 280 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:48.160 Nazi Age's. Okay, so there's commonalities amongst these lists and the differing sort 281 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.839 of competing canons that we're being used. However, there's also quite a bit 282 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:56.160 of difference here. For example, Milito's canon does not include the dudal canonical 283 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:03.920 text. However, anaceous as canon does include certain due or canonical texts. 284 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.119 For example, the Letter of Barreck. It includes Epistol Jeremiah and includes a 285 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:17.640 first and second Asdres, whereas Cyril Jerusalem's canon includes Barreck Pistol of Jeremiah but 286 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.000 not the lets. There's one difference that they have that he has with Athanasius 287 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:30.720 on Esther. So Cyril Jerusalem includes Esther. Athanasius does not include Esther as 288 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:33.000 far as I can tell, at least from Lee McDonald's list here of the 289 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:44.039 canon, Epiphanius has basically the same list it looks like as Cyril of Jerusalem. 290 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:52.759 But that's just the Old Testament text and Gregor Nazianzus interestingly includes actually leaves 291 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.559 out quite a few Old Testament texts that even Protestants would accept. So the 292 00:26:56.680 --> 00:26:59.680 point is that we're getting a lot of varying canons, and there's there's a 293 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.960 few war here. There is Council of Leodicia, which includes the Epistle of 294 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:08.319 Jeremiah and Barrack, and then there is the New Testament. We'll move on 295 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.839 to the New Testament canon. Here Hillary lists no, I'm sorry, this 296 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:17.839 is that was the East. This is the Latin Church's West Old Testament, 297 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.359 the Western Churches Old Testament canon. Now Hillary has a list that includes Tobit. 298 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.440 Drome, of course has what Protestants accept as the Old Testament canon, 299 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.119 and Drome's argument, of course, was that, well, that's what Jews 300 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.880 are accepting, so we'll go with that, which I don't think is that 301 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.720 good of an argument. By the way, Jerome, of course taught most 302 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.960 of the other things that Protestants don't teach, so I don't I don't think 303 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:41.640 Jerome's going to be too great of a source. Rufinus has a selection of 304 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.680 Old Testament books which is fairly consistent with the Protestant canon. Of course, 305 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:51.119 Augustine, the Council of Rome, Council of Hippo, Codex Vaticanus. None 306 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:55.599 of those will work for the Protestant cannon at all. They typically include the 307 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.000 durocanonical text, but they also have differences amongst themselves, by the way, 308 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:06.200 Codex batacanist Codex Sinaticus, Codex Alexandrines also having mostly due to canonical texts, 309 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.880 but also variations amongst them. Then, moving into other church fathers, Huse 310 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:22.599 Cbs disputes the Catholic Epistles. Interestingly, Clement includes text that we wouldn't include. 311 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.920 We wouldn't include The Shepherd of Hermis, the Acts of Paul, or 312 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.079 the Revelation of Peter Cyril of Jerusalem. In his New Testament canon has what 313 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.799 we would typically would include, but he also does not believe that the Book 314 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.200 of Revelation was canonical. And this is going to be important because one of 315 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:42.160 the interest, one of the crucial points that we want to stress for Orthodox 316 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:47.200 when it comes to canonist city was that a lot of the Church did not 317 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:52.759 accept the Book of Revelation as canonical and it was actually authanaceous. If you 318 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.200 read F. F. Bruce's book Interscripture, who's been one of the most 319 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:04.000 famous Protestant evangelical scholars, He's got some great chapters on Athanasius convincing Rome that 320 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:10.319 no, actually we should include the Catholic Epistles and the Book of Revelation. 321 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.519 So to me, that suggests that, no, we can't really divorce. 322 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:18.200 I mean, it's easy for us nowadays to look back and say, well, 323 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.680 we have this, you know, this basic sixty six books of the 324 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.359 King James Bible, the Protestant cannon. Why can't we just go with that 325 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:29.279 as pretty obvious in it again, put your mind in the attitude of a 326 00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:33.880 person in the fourth fifth sixth century. When you go to your local church 327 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:38.960 and there's not a specific necessarily Bible there, right, there's not a sixty 328 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.279 six books of the Bible. Here's the key point. What is they're there? 329 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:47.480 You're going to have electionaries, daily readings that are being done in the 330 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.559 churches. And when I got into a lot of these Protestant scholars talking about 331 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.599 how the cannon came to be, I didn't even realize as a Protestant guy, 332 00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:00.680 Reformed guy, that liturgy was a huge piece of the puzzle for how 333 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.599 the cannon came to be. So I'm not saying it was the only puzzle 334 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:07.599 piece, but it's a big piece because when Cannon city is being discussed and 335 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.240 for us as Orthodox, that eventually comes about by the time of Trollo in 336 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:18.119 the sixth Council, you know, I mean, we would find attestation to 337 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:25.519 the earlier Pope Damesist and Augustine Cannon, but it doesn't necessarily for us, 338 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:30.680 if equated to ecumenical status, until it's really covered by the Ecumenical Council, 339 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.920 and then it's received by the rest of the church. So the irony hears 340 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.279 it. For the Orthodox, the cannon is really late and Even then, 341 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.000 it's still kind of flexible because John Damascus, when he lists his cannon, 342 00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.799 it's the same as the Orthodox canon, but he also lists an extra I 343 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.279 think I think he says Clement. He thinks Clement is canonical as well, 344 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.240 which is interesting because I'm not sure why he thought that. There's probably scholars 345 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.640 that could tell you why he thought that. But the Epistolic cannons or something, 346 00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.400 is that what it is? Yeah, he does. You're right, 347 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:00.599 he has the cannon ends, and I think he has a Clement in there 348 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:07.440 too. But um, that might be because he's going from an earlier you 349 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.400 know, ruling from you know, a Synada, or he might have just 350 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.079 been pulling from was it Cyril Jerusalem? Anyway, point being is that for 351 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.440 us it's pretty late, and you know, liturgy played a key role in 352 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:23.759 that. So when the church Father said, okay, what books are canonical, 353 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:29.440 Well, let's look at what books were used and read in certain important 354 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.799 ancient Apostolic sees. Let's look to the ancient liturgies, the liturgy of Saint 355 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:37.319 Mark, Liturgy of Saint Basil. Let's look to the daily readings and the 356 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.200 electionaries that are read in the churches let's look to the tradition of the Church 357 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:47.279 and the various seas in terms of what their their tradition was about Apostolicity, 358 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.359 because, for example, Matthew doesn't list who the author is. So the 359 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.799 only way that we would know that Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew is 360 00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.559 that the church's tradition says this is Matthew the apostles Gospel, right, and 361 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:07.680 so ferreting that out from umgraph which are not necessarily heterodox. I mean, 362 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:13.200 there's sudopographa that might contain true tradition. I think our liturgy, you know, 363 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.799 references things that are in some of the suppographical texts. The point being 364 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:27.799 that if canonicity is strictly requiring Apostolic authorship, which sometimes Protestants argue, there's 365 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.799 a lot of problems there because we're immediately gonna have to rely on the testimony 366 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.720 of the Church again to exam for example, to know that Matthew wrote Matthew's 367 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:38.480 Gospel, and that we shouldn't accept other sudapographical texts that have you know, 368 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:44.599 apostles names attached to them. So it's a confluence of things, is what 369 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:49.000 I'm trying to say. That go into how and why the Church shows what 370 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:54.599 books they did, and you cannot divorce it from this historical process. Therefore, 371 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:00.079 if I do believe the texts, and I do believe the guidance of 372 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:05.920 the Church within history, just like I believe God's providence can guide Abraham to 373 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:12.240 faithfully know the tradition passed down from Adam, I can believe that God's providence 374 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.000 can continue to preserve in the Church, which is something more than what was 375 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:20.200 existing in the Old Testament, which is the body. Right, So Jesus 376 00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.119 says in the Gospels, as you know, that he will send the Holy 377 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.759 Spirit in the Gospel John, and that the Spirit will guide you and lead 378 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:29.279 you into all truth. And for us, he's speaking to the collective body 379 00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.279 of the church there, right, And that promise didn't leave when the last 380 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:35.400 Apostle. But it's not like when John died. Okay, well, the 381 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:37.359 Holy Spirit's gone, so good luck. You know, hopefully you can figure 382 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:42.920 it out. Here's a roadmap of d I y and hopefully you don't come 383 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.559 up with a liturgy or church worship service that God hates. No, there's 384 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:51.759 a pattern of worship that mos that assuming the Adam path, that I'm getting 385 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:53.599 I had too much coffee today because I was having to do this podcast. 386 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.359 And there's a pattern of worship the Apostles laid down in the seas that they 387 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.000 went and evangelized and set up, and immediately after the Apostles, that's precisely 388 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:07.920 what we see when we read Ignatious, when we read Clement, when we 389 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.880 read Ambrose, when we read Cyprian, when we read Arnas. They at 390 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.920 Justin Martyr they have this liturgical pattern of worship, and even in Justin Martyr 391 00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:21.840 or in erin As, we have them discussing the liturgy and its celebration, 392 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.000 but we still don't even have like a full on worship service. But we 393 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.519 can go to ancient texts like the Liturgy of Saint Mark at Alexandria, and 394 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:31.199 I think it dates from I don't know, two hundreds or something like that. 395 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:37.440 We can see other liturgical celebrations from around that same time, for example, 396 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:39.920 the Easter controversy, so we know the church was celebrating Pasca and Easter 397 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.239 early on because they were having these big debates with Pope Pope Victor over it 398 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.760 right and the quarter decimonarian controversy. So we know that liturgical worship is the 399 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.920 norm absolutely during these time periods. Even if we don't have Arnasrosimrti giving us 400 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.039 a full service, we do have those services, as my point, and 401 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:02.079 those services play a key role centuries later in the determination of the canon. 402 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:09.480 Therefore, we must have some historical body that is the preserver and the expositor, 403 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.360 the guardian of this tradition. And I would argue that the first thousand 404 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.280 years of Christianity, when we go to those councils, when we go to 405 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:22.199 those synods, that synodal structure that we have in Acts fifteen, the Church 406 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:25.519 operates precisely in that way, both in local synods, even though we see 407 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.280 those you know, Council of Ganga Albira, we have ecumenical synods which we 408 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.559 see with you know, Nicia and the subsequent ecumenical councils, and the canons 409 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:38.559 of those councils, I would say, are one of the strongest arguments against 410 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.840 the papal perspective. So you asked me specifically too about Roman Catholicism and why 411 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.400 Orthodox is not Roman Catholic. I would say that the easiest way to demonstrate 412 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:52.440 that without going into papal documents and papal dogma and Roman Catholic dogument would be 413 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.639 to say, well, we know kind of the claims of Rome about what 414 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.679 it sees itself as as the true church, is that the way the Church 415 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:05.079 operated in the first millennium, and if the Church of the first Millennium operated 416 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.760 in an Orthodox synodal way, and I think that it's demonstrable that they did, 417 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:14.320 and if there are canons in every one of the ecumenical councils for seven 418 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:20.519 at least that actually directly contradict and conflict with the Vatican One claim and interpretation, 419 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.679 to me, that's the strongest proof possible that the Church of the first 420 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:29.480 Millennium was not the papal monarchical system, but rather a synodal system of first 421 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:31.960 amongst equals. And by the way, the Alexandria document that just came out 422 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.639 that we just said a live stream on pretty much it basically concedes about nine 423 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:44.920 the Orthodox points I should add, which is a Roman Catholic of Francis approved 424 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:50.239 commission. Yeah, so I would say those things are the reasons why I 425 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.199 think that the social ure is not true and the formation that cannon basically requires 426 00:36:54.679 --> 00:37:00.440 some notion of the infallibility of the Church within history right on on, Well, 427 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:01.800 y'all, we can just pack up and go home. J just killed 428 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.360 it, and so we're done here. I mean, there's nothing else left 429 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.639 to say. No, it's fine, but no, I Jay, there's 430 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:09.719 so many things that you said there. I want to hit on first and 431 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:16.800 foremost thank you, because I actually got Lee Martin McDonald's book because you recommended 432 00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:21.559 it. Also got F. Bruce. So if those who are interested, 433 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.880 if you don't have any money, that's actually fine because if you sign up 434 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.199 for a free trial inscribe, they've got the audio book of of F. 435 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.880 Bruce The Cannon of Scripture on there for free, and you just canceled the 436 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:36.840 free trial whenever you're done with it. But great books and things that you 437 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:40.400 know, things were mentioned in those books that really led me deeper. So 438 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:45.000 I ended up getting this book, The Biblical Cannon from Lee Martin McDonald, 439 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:50.559 and I also got his newer version out The Formation of the Old and New 440 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.880 Testament Canon on Logos, and so I'm diving into those now, big thick 441 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.960 books. Haven't finished them yet, but I'm really interested in seeing which way 442 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.039 Lee McDonald is going to go there. But let me, let me just 443 00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:06.559 ask my host real quick, guys, is there anything in what Jay said 444 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.360 that you want to touch on, maybe some key points or highlights that stood 445 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.360 out to you, guys, Dell or David, And then we'll go to 446 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.039 Dane as well. Yeah, I have a couple couple questions. I was 447 00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:22.239 trying to write down a bunch of one of the first things you said there, 448 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.880 Jay is about, Yeah, it's definitely possible in God's providence that he 449 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.880 can preserve the oral tradition through the succession and that sort of thing. So 450 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:35.719 I just kind of wanted to ask your take from an orthodox perspective, because 451 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.920 obviously, when it comes to the down to the preservation of the written scripture, 452 00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:45.760 even the most conservative evangelical scholars and Bible scholars do admit it's not one 453 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.119 hundred percent. It's probably about ninety five percent been preserved. So how do 454 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:54.679 you like, if that's not one hundred percent infallible in terms of the written 455 00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:59.559 scriptures, why does it need to be one hundred percent infallible in terms of 456 00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.599 the presentation of the oral tradition or is it? Do you guys think there 457 00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:08.960 could be some minor errors there. I would say that the what we talked 458 00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:14.199 about when we talk about passing on the faith once we're all delivered to the 459 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:17.480 saints, that would be that would be referring to the totality of the divine 460 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:22.719 revelation committed to the apostles and to their successors. So that's a body of 461 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:30.320 doctrines ultimately that includes things like you know, previous scripture and apostolic exegesis and 462 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:34.400 things like the liturgy. So in other words, we believe that Paul, 463 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.960 you know, really did set up a liturgical worship service, right, and 464 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:42.280 for us this is an appoint point about scripture. Scripture is more of a 465 00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.119 liturgical document than it is like a private devotional documents. Something wrong with you 466 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:50.360 reading it as a private devotion, but it's not primarily for that. It's 467 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.920 primarily for an ordered worship service. And that's why the Jews actually operated the 468 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.719 same way, right, They had a structure of how you would read certain 469 00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.280 certain texts in certain books and certain orders. And then it kind of concludes 470 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.960 with nowadays, at least the synagogue system, which does have a basis and 471 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:12.960 a lot of the older temple and synagogue services from the Patristic and time of 472 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.119 Christ era, like there's a structure to that, and so for us, 473 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:22.480 we simply adopted that same structure and pattern because we would say that Paul set 474 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:27.119 up this kind of worship out of the existing temple and synagogue systems. That's 475 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.440 why there's a great book on this that my buddy Lewis, he did a 476 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.920 whole documentary that you could look up on Orthodox Shahadah, and the book is 477 00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.400 Orthodox worship living continity with a synagogue, the temple in the early Church. 478 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:42.119 And it kind of makes this point so the way it relates to what you're 479 00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:45.400 asking about the inarrency of certain texts. So the question of an arretcy, 480 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:50.679 I think, is a different question from whether or not there was a historical 481 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:54.199 place for the church to determine the cannon. I don't know of anybody that 482 00:40:54.360 --> 00:41:00.079 except for maybe like a King James Onliiness that thinks that literally every like you 483 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:06.320 know, John and Tittle is necessarily quote infallible or in that sense, because 484 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.079 we have to go from copyist manuscripts, which do have, like you know, 485 00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:16.199 minor discrepancies amongst them. So, but copyist errors is different from whether 486 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:22.920 the body of doctrines handed down has been faithfully preserved and whether or not the 487 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.400 text themselves, for the most part, exhibit continuity and inspiration, which I 488 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.440 would say they do. I think they're God breathed, right, but that 489 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:34.480 is it. But we don't have AUTOGRAPHA, so we don't have the actual 490 00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:37.599 text that Paul wrote or Matthew wrote. This is again another thing that points 491 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:43.280 to the necessity of the church in this if I if I can't go on 492 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.719 a time machine and see what Matthew was writing, and I don't even have 493 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:50.760 copies of Matthew. I like, you know, there's like a fragment of 494 00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:52.800 John from the year nine, year one hundred, right. Most of the 495 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:58.559 other fragments and gospel collections are second, third, four fifty, sixth, 496 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.119 seventh centuries. So I'm having the point you're making. I would concede it, 497 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.000 and I would say, all the more reason why we have to kind 498 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.599 of distrust the testimony of the church and God's providence to preserve the text, 499 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:12.159 because we don't have the autographa, meaning the ones written by Paul or Matthew. 500 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.920 Gotcha, all right? Cool? And just one last question before I 501 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.920 turn it to David to save time. But one thing, so I was 502 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.840 interested. You mentioned some models in the New Testament times that you think kind 503 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:31.960 of support sort of what one biblical scholar calls a formal controlled process type thing. 504 00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:37.639 Right, But there there, I think there's other models too, whereby 505 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:43.719 an informal controlled transmission of oral tradition could also work. Right, So we 506 00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:47.320 have the Brillons, for example. They don't just defer to what Paul says. 507 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.480 They check for themselves in the scriptures to see, to test the teachers 508 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.880 and the leaders and stuff, to see are they telling the truth? Y're 509 00:42:55.960 --> 00:43:00.239 not, so do you think? Well? But yeah, and I think 510 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.519 that's a good question. But if you if you notice, Deuteronomy thirteen and 511 00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:07.519 Deuteronomy eighteen already laid down the principle that any coming profit has to be consistent 512 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:13.360 with prior revelation. So anybody in the days of Isaiah, if they were 513 00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:15.760 lettered, they might conceivably do the same thing. Oh, here's a guy 514 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.559 Isaiah over here claiming to be a prophet. I can check and see if 515 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:24.079 I'm lettered. You know, is what he's saying consistent with prior previous divine 516 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:29.159 revelation? Yes, it is, so therefore maybe I should listen to him. 517 00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.320 Right, So, if we're in a period when there is ongoing divine 518 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:37.159 revelation, it's definitely necessary that we would cross reference and check what's being said 519 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:40.119 with prior revelation. But and I would I'm assuming if you're Protestant, you 520 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:44.760 believe that there's some kind of cessation at some point with the depth the apostles 521 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.039 for public divine revelation, unless you're you're charismatic. I don't know. But 522 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:57.760 what I'm saying is that cross referencing and checking divine revelation that's new doesn't really 523 00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.559 in any way effect whether such soul scripture is true or whether there's oral tradition 524 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:05.320 or not. Okay, just one quick follow up if you don't mind. 525 00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:07.760 I know I said that was just to follow up quickly on that. So 526 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:13.119 are you saying for the From my understand, I thought the Orthodox divine revelation 527 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.920 in terms of the oral tradition is still open, right like you guys. 528 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:22.239 I know you guys ended the seven ucumenical counsels, but couldn't there be a 529 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.760 future counsel? Or is it? Acumenical councils are not new divine revelations. 530 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.639 So divine revelation is a body of teaching of the full apostolic deposit. We 531 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.960 could say, so for example, Jude says you speaks of the faith once 532 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:38.599 for all, delivered to the saints. So when John died, I would 533 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:45.000 I would argue, there's not any new public divine revelation. Acumenical counsels expositing 534 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:49.960 the apostolic deposit is not new divine revelations. So those are different things. 535 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:54.880 We would say that the counsels explicate and may make precise what is already there 536 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:59.880 in the data of divine revelation. So there's nothing that there's not a new 537 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:06.480 divine revelation. Gotchas, what's kind of they're infallibor inspired in a judicating on 538 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.039 the previous revelation. Okay, yes, okay, cool, Yeah, over 539 00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:15.199 to you, David. I don't have nothing else of yet. I'm still 540 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.440 thinking right now, questions we'll probably I'll try to get back too later. 541 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:24.199 That was a lot to take in, Kate hit On at one point, 542 00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.920 that was a very broad question for you, and I'm glad that you had 543 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:34.320 the gumption and drive to answer it the way you did, so thank you 544 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.840 for that. All right right on, let me so let's go to Dane. 545 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:42.519 Dane, if you've got any questions or or if you want to add 546 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.679 anything, and then we'll go to Bou to see if Bou wants to add 547 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:50.519 anything as well. Cool. Yeah, I think that was an awesome answer 548 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.000 to a big question, Jay, So thank you for that. And I 549 00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:59.440 did want to ask one follow up around um the synodal structure of the Orthodox 550 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:04.440 Church and the councils, and just sort of ask a question that I've heard, 551 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:12.320 um some Protestant Apologists bring up when when talking to some Orthodox folks, 552 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:17.559 and it's the question of like, how how do we know the Orthodox Church 553 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:22.440 is on the correct side of every Senate when there are dissenters who would say 554 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:27.960 that they're apostolic. So an example being, um, the Coptic Church and 555 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:35.159 the Monophysites, Um, you know, not not adhering to Chalcedon. And 556 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:40.320 so what's the way to discern the Orthodox Church the Chalcedonian creed. It's it's 557 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:45.159 solid, it sound, it's apostolic when we have this group of the Monophysites 558 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:51.760 claiming that they're actually um correct and rejecting that Senate. So if you could 559 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.760 parse that out, I'd I'd love to hear your answer, doctor Branson or 560 00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:00.800 me. Who are you asking to either one. If I mean, whoever 561 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:04.400 wants to be a doctor? Branson, I've been rambling for a whole time, 562 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.880 So yeah, you probably know more about that than I do. I'll 563 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.119 have some stuff to say to follow up on. Well. I would say 564 00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:15.199 that a lot of time the question you've asked a lot of times people are 565 00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:19.079 confusing two different categories. I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that, But in 566 00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:22.840 this debate discussion which I've been you know, hearing and having for probably twenty 567 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:27.199 years on this question of authority and how do we know which one is right 568 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:32.440 and who's goot the legitimate claims, I would say between a Protestant Roman Catholic 569 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:37.079 and an Orthodox, we all kind of are in the same boat. All 570 00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:42.960 of those systems will, in the final analysis, admit that the only ultimate 571 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.800 assurance that the individual has is the work of the Holy Spirit. They all 572 00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:50.920 at least give verbal credence to that at some point. For the Roman Catholic, 573 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:54.400 the assurance is supposed to come through the Holy Spirit leading the individual through 574 00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:59.199 ultimately the papal documents, right, I mean the magisterium, which is ultimately 575 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:05.280 the papal approval and statements are the final arbiter, right, the final word 576 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.559 on the issues. And so the assumption being that the individual Roman Catholic then 577 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.079 is supposed to be in a privileged position epistemically to be able to parcel out 578 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:17.199 all the papal teachings into their correct bins and categories of authority. Right. 579 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.639 So that's how the papal system works. The Protestant system is similar, except 580 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:28.199 that it's the Holy Spirit leading the individual to accurately understand and interpret the text 581 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:32.440 of scripture ultimately right. So for the Orthodox person, we agree that ultimately 582 00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:37.079 the final arbiter of assurance where an individual has to be the Holy Spirit working 583 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.119 on the heart of the individual. But where we would disagree with those other 584 00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:45.800 two systems is the means that he uses. So whereas we're not primarily saying 585 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:50.039 that the means of certainty and assurance, not saying that Roman Catholicism is reduced 586 00:48:50.519 --> 00:48:53.480 to papal documents, but in terms of knowing the dogmas and having assurance in 587 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:59.199 their system, it is that is the work of the Holy Spirit leading it 588 00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:00.800 to the papal do comments. Right. And by the way, if you 589 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.599 got it, if you're a Protestant, it's I would argue, it's easier 590 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.480 because you've got this one. If you're Roman Catholic, I've got like a 591 00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.360 giant stack of paper documents. You've got a lot more work to do, 592 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:14.039 a lot more to weed through, so hopefully you can put them in the 593 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:19.079 right bins. But um so, where we disagree with the Protestant, as 594 00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.079 I said, is that the Bible has its place, and it's definitely I 595 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:27.719 would argue inspired, and it's an errant again in terms of the body of 596 00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.360 doctrines passed down to the church. I don't mean that. I don't think 597 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.679 that means that every copyist manuscript is an errant. I think there are a 598 00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:37.559 few copiist errors. But even still, it has a great I mean, 599 00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:39.079 it's amongst all the ancient texts, as far as I'm aware, it's the 600 00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:44.559 most unanimity and historical attestation above any other texts that are out there, Like 601 00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.239 Plato has the oldest sex of Plato from like the Middle Ages or whatever. 602 00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:52.920 So, um so, it has its place and all that, but it's 603 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:58.840 none of that equates to being the ultimate authority, or the soul authority, 604 00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:01.199 or the final arbiter. Because it's kind of like if you think about the 605 00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:08.199 Constitution. Right, the Constitution is the nation's ultimate authoritative document. However, 606 00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:14.119 we need some kind of role of existing people to exposit that and give the 607 00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:16.440 final word on the law. And that's of course what the Supreme Court is. 608 00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:21.360 Supreme Court exposits and kind of gives the final interpretation of the document. 609 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.360 And we're just simply arguing that in not just because we want it to be 610 00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:30.559 the case, but that Jesus actually did establish a body of teachers who have 611 00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:32.400 authority. And then we see that in Act fifteen, and we see the 612 00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:37.480 Church continuing that synodal system all the way up until till today. And by 613 00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:40.039 the way, the normative government governing system is local sentods, right, it's 614 00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:45.280 not actually ecumenical. So you got three hundred years with no ecumenical synod. 615 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:51.119 Yet the Church is continuing to exist. So so assurance comes in the one 616 00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.320 sense for the individual by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, I think sat Simmy, 617 00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:58.639 the New Theologian, has a whole great chapter on that in his mystical 618 00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:06.440 discourses, but or public profession, the Orthodox just simply disagrees with the model 619 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.320 that the Roman Calic Church has and the model that the Protestan has, And 620 00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:12.079 we would argue that the first thousand years of the Church, which are so 621 00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:16.039 crucial, especially for the Roman calic apologetic, that they demonstrate this synodal public 622 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:21.400 confession. So how am I going to know whether the Chalcedonians are right or 623 00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:27.679 whether um, the you know, anti Chalcedonians are right. Well, at 624 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:29.480 the end of the day, we're not gonna be able to turn off our 625 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:32.599 brains, right, We're not gonna be able to just pick an authority figure, 626 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.400 right, I mean, that's the Roman says, well, I'll just 627 00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:37.519 pick that. Well, and in the processes so I'll just pick the Bible. 628 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:43.119 None of the neither of those really answers as solves the individual knowing for 629 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:45.880 sure which one's right, because you still have to go into interpreting and knowing 630 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.119 the information. So, but beyond that, there are other things in the 631 00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:54.760 councils, for example, and so Calcedon, for example, the question would 632 00:51:54.760 --> 00:52:01.400 be is Chalcedon consistent with ephesis? And so every one of the acumenical councils 633 00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:07.119 begins with after a nice obviously begins with the notion that we are continuing the 634 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.639 tradition of what we said before, and this kind of builds all the way 635 00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:14.000 up, you know, through the seventh slash eight councils up until the Palm 636 00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:17.559 might sentides for the Orthodox that we're being consistent with the cannons and the revelation 637 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.800 that came before. So it's true that there are councils Robertson out of office 638 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:28.559 and all that for us, but there's really no way to adjudicate this problem 639 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:31.960 without going into the actual specifics of the argumentation. There's no a priori way 640 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:39.599 to know, oh, this is the right council because of the pope right, 641 00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:45.000 because the Roman Calticism itself actually doesn't give you a consistent, coherent list 642 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:46.920 of the councils. For example, Ladder in six forty nine should be a 643 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:51.800 Roman calty ecumenical council based on their system, but it's not. It never 644 00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:54.039 has been, and the reason it wasn't at that time, if I recall, 645 00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:57.639 is because the Emperor didn't sign onto it. Well, if it was 646 00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:00.599 the papal system at that time, who cares whether the emperor so it doesn't 647 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.679 it shouldn't matter. But anyway, long shorty of short is that, yeah, 648 00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:10.400 there's certain structures and things within the councils themselves about universal acceptance and this 649 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.920 kind of stuff and has to eventually be received by the whole church. And 650 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.920 so it's not just this total top down model, but it's also not a 651 00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:20.599 total bottom up model where it's like, well, it's all the word of 652 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:22.119 the people or you know that that would be more of a Protestant model, 653 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:27.920 right, because of the Protestant doctrines of freedom of conscience and that you can't 654 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:30.480 bind me to your interpretation these kinds of things. Right, So it's I 655 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:34.960 would just argue that history demonstrates it's neither Protestant nor the Roman Catholic model. 656 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:38.239 And the specifics of the Oriental question are a little more hairy, but if 657 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:43.559 you go into the actual theological issues, I think we can show who's right 658 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:50.119 and is wrong. Cool, Thanks man, Right on, right on, 659 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.960 all right, doctor Branson. Is there anything that you would like to add 660 00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:59.840 to either the question that Dan ask or to the arguments and the positive case 661 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.000 that Jay brought up a little bit ago. Yeah, I could just give 662 00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:10.559 some some thoughts that I had that obviously kind of support Jay's position because it's 663 00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:15.639 my decision, but the way I kind of, I mean, part of 664 00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:22.199 what got me interested in orthodoxy was I was very interested in Judaism first. 665 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:27.679 And in Judaism there's this idea, I mean, in the Bible, right, 666 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:31.079 God gives the Torah to Moses, the written Torah, but then it's 667 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:38.239 it's just taken for granted that people will have disputes about the law. Right, 668 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:42.360 It's not taken for granted that, like it's so clear that there'll never 669 00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:45.840 be any you know, any reason to worry about it. So God just 670 00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:47.239 takes it for granted. Of course, people are going to be arguing about 671 00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:52.079 how to interpret this and how it applies and whatever, and so Moses will 672 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:58.159 be the judge, right, So God specifically gives that authority of interpreting the 673 00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:05.280 Torah to Moses. And an interesting thing it happens is God never tells Moses 674 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:12.079 to delegate that authority, but his father in law does, and so Moses 675 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:15.320 just says, yeah, that's a good idea. I'm here from morning till 676 00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:19.960 evening. So he sets up this whole hierarchical system where, you know, 677 00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:22.320 over I think it was groups of fifty or one hundred or whatever, there's 678 00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:25.800 judges, and then there's a whole kind of system to appeal it all the 679 00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:30.480 way up to Moses, right. And the interesting thing, I mean, 680 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:35.480 one interesting thing about that is just the concept of sort of delegating authority. 681 00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:39.800 It just seems to be taken for granted in scripture that if God has given 682 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:45.239 Moses this authority, then Moses has the authority to delegate it to people below 683 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:49.880 him if he wants to, right, because that's never something he asks God 684 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:52.960 about. God doesn't give him the commandment about it. It's his father in 685 00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:55.719 law, and he just does that, right. And the Jewish tradition is 686 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:00.920 that, of course Moses then passed that authority already down to Joshua and the 687 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:06.639 seventy elders. And it describes part of that in the Bible right where he 688 00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:10.519 lays his hands on Joshua and it says that, you know, God's going 689 00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:15.000 to take from the spirit that's on Moses and put it on Joshua. So 690 00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:17.679 you get this idea of the laying on of hands, which is a big 691 00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:24.280 deal in the Jewish idea of ordination. And then Jay mentioned Ezra to who 692 00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:30.119 you know, when you have people coming back from the Babylonian captivity and all 693 00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:35.119 this, like you you've got a situation where people don't really speak Hebrew. 694 00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:38.719 So the text is in Hebrew, but people really you know, are speaking 695 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:43.400 in Aramaic. And that's actually kind of the origin of where we had why 696 00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:45.199 we have a sermon today. It goes back to, you know, what 697 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:51.159 would have just been this liturgical reading of a section of the Torah, but 698 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:53.960 because people couldn't really understand that, they would read it in Hebrew, and 699 00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:58.079 then they would read it in Aramaic or they would interpret it to the people 700 00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:00.159 in Aramaic. And that's where we get the idea of a of a homily. 701 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.960 And that's also where like you get the targets and this sort of thing, 702 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:08.239 and and also um in the at the same time, I think it's 703 00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:13.039 an Ezra or Niemiah that that God talks about, like, you know, 704 00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:17.039 you'll they'll they'll have to be people set up who can interpret the law for 705 00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:20.760 the people. Right. So again, it just kind of takes for granted 706 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:24.400 that there needs to be a class of people who are experts, who just 707 00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:30.000 devote themselves to learning the Torah and being able to interpret it and apply it. 708 00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:35.440 And the Jewish tradition is then that gets passed down again from so it's 709 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:38.199 from Moses to the the seventy elders to the judges. I forgot to mention 710 00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:42.559 the judges, and then Ezra, and then down to the rabbis and the 711 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:47.199 men of the Great Assembly and the sanhedrin Um. And an interesting thing is 712 00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:52.039 people people overlook this because the way it's translated in the Gospel of John. 713 00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:59.559 But in the Gospel of John, Jesus celebrates Hanuka, and it's it's translated 714 00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:04.719 in English and your Bible it'll say something like the feast of Dedication, and 715 00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:10.880 people don't necessarily realize that that's the official name for hanukah Um. So when 716 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:16.519 in the book of the Macabee's Antiochus Epiphanies, you know, desecrates the temple 717 00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:21.679 and sacrifices, you know, it's like pork or whatever, you know, 718 00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:24.239 to Zeus or something, and so then it had to be rededicated. So 719 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:30.760 the feast of Dedication celebrates the rededication of the temple. That's nowhere in the 720 00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:36.119 Protestant Bible, right, So so it's it's not in Protestant scripture, it's 721 00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:38.440 not in the feast isn't even really mentioned in the Book of the Macabees. 722 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:44.400 The Macabees talks about the events, but it's just something that the rabbis created 723 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:50.199 the feast of Hanka, and Jesus is there celebrating it, right, and 724 00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.880 so he and he tells the disciples at one point, you know, whatever 725 00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:59.920 the Pharisees say, you should do what they say because they sit in the 726 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:02.480 seat of Moses. But he says, don't do as they do because he 727 00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:06.920 thought they were hypocrites. Right. But it's interesting because he doesn't say, 728 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:08.519 like, oh, forget about them, they're hypocrites, so they don't count. 729 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:13.280 He says, you have to do what they say because they sit in 730 00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:16.679 the seat of Moses. So he seems to say that they do have the 731 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:22.480 authority to create new festivals that are not mentioned in the Torah. He seems 732 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:27.159 to think they have authority that the disciples have to follow it, and so 733 00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:32.400 forth. And then there's the passage about binding and loosing that I always get 734 00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:37.559 amused when I hear certain interpretations of it, when people talk about like binding 735 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:44.400 and loosing demons, like as though you would want to loose demons, fair 736 00:59:44.519 --> 00:59:50.320 enough, But if you I got interested in that because of the it's mentioned 737 00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:57.440 by David Stern and the Messianic Jewish Manifesto and in his Jewish New Testament commentary. 738 00:59:57.599 --> 01:00:00.599 But if you just look up binding and loosing on the Jewish encyclopedia, 739 01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:07.559 those are technical terms in rabbinic Judaism that you see all over the talent mood, 740 01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:13.559 right uh, And it's it's essentially um So the term for an interpretation 741 01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:19.280 that the Jewish sort of technical term about an interpretation of the Torah is halakha 742 01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:23.519 right, So from the word halak meaning to walk. So it's the way 743 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:27.159 in which you should go. So it says, you know, Moses will 744 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:30.400 tell you the way in which you should go. In other words, if 745 01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:34.760 you you know or have a dispute about how to interpret the Torah. So 746 01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:39.119 halakha is is sort of like it's kind of like the equivalent of like like 747 01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:43.800 common law, like judge made law. Right, so you have the like 748 01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:47.360 the Constitution is written, but you know a judge will interpret it. And 749 01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:53.079 then once they've made that interpretation, and that sets the precedent and future uh, 750 01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:58.119 you know, future legal cases have to follow the same precedent. And 751 01:00:58.199 --> 01:01:00.679 in Judaism, that's the idea is that you know, the rabbis or whoever 752 01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:06.400 is around at the time, they'll they'll issue halacha uh, and then you 753 01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:09.760 know you have to kind of follow the precedent and um. And the term 754 01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:15.000 for that that the term for uh for forbidding something is binding, and the 755 01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:20.000 term for permitting something is loosing. So you'll see, like you know, 756 01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:27.519 the house of Hillel binds divorce and the house of Shamai loose's divorce or whatever. 757 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:32.159 Uh. And the way So in Judaism, what you would do right 758 01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:35.039 if you of course, I mean, if you have a you know, 759 01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.360 little minor sort of questions or disputes or whatever, you would just go to 760 01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:43.280 your local rabbi if it's a if it's a bigger issue, there's what they 761 01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:45.679 call a bet den, a house of judgment, which has to be a 762 01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:52.960 it's basically a counsel of at least three or more rabbis, right, um 763 01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:57.679 and uh. And there so they can have a bet den they and they 764 01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.400 issue halaka, they bind or loose whatever her right. And there's kind of 765 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:05.719 there's stuff and the talmud about this that like you know, when they when 766 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.760 a bet den binds or looses whatever, you know, God in heaven will 767 01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:15.559 confirm that you know that decision. And so if you look at the language 768 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:17.239 that Jesus uses. It's very clear. And like I said, you can 769 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:21.760 just look up binding and loosing in the Jewish encyclopedia and they say this. 770 01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:24.559 They're like, yeah, that's what Jesus is clearly talking about here, because 771 01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:29.320 it's exactly the same sort of structure. He says, wherever two or three 772 01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:32.840 And by the way, he's not in that passage, he's not addressing a 773 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:37.760 big multitude of people. He's specific only the twelve Disciples are there in that 774 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:43.679 theme, so he's not addressing like all Christians everywhere. He's addressing the twelve 775 01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:46.079 Disciples. And he says, whatever, wherever two or three of you, 776 01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:51.639 the disciples are gathered in my name, I'm there in the midst of you. 777 01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:54.039 And whatever you bind on earth will be bound on heaven. Whatever you 778 01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:58.679 loose on earth will be loose in heaven. So what it seems like he's 779 01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:06.000 saying is that he's he's giving them the authority to make halaka right from the 780 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:09.039 Messiah, not from Moses. Right. And since he's greater than Moses, 781 01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:15.239 they have an even greater authority now, right. And if you if you 782 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:21.639 assume I mean, and that's even Protestant scholars will will acknowledge this if they 783 01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:25.760 if they've you know, um, you can, you can find some Protestant 784 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:30.840 commentaries on those verses and so forth. Um. The thing that they'll they'll 785 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:36.360 usually try to argue is, um, you know, whether that can be 786 01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:39.280 passed down or if it was going to just you know, for the twelve 787 01:03:39.320 --> 01:03:44.559 Disciples. But my what I would say is, you know, it's clearly 788 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:50.199 mirroring. Um. I mean, there's there's nothing in the actual Old Testament 789 01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:54.000 about binding and losing all of that. That's all Jewish oral tradition and or 790 01:03:54.159 --> 01:04:00.360 the oral torah, right, Uh. And so in any way in the 791 01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:02.079 Jewish system, I mean, it is passed down, and the way that 792 01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:08.119 it's passed down is through the laying on of hands. And so you see 793 01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:11.559 this in the in the Book of Acts too, right, where the apostles 794 01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:15.559 will lay hands for various things. One is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, 795 01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:21.280 but also when they're ordaining deacons and press bers and so forth. And 796 01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:26.280 so also I would point out that in the Book of Acts, so just 797 01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:30.360 like with Moses, he doesn't wait for God to sort of tell him that 798 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:33.880 he can delegate this power. It's just sort of taken for granted that he 799 01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:38.559 can delegate it and he can pass it down if he wants to. And 800 01:04:38.639 --> 01:04:42.440 in the Book of Acts, what you find is the Apostles. Once the 801 01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:46.280 community gets too big and there's these kind of disputes between the Hellenizers or the 802 01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:54.360 Greeks and the Hebrews, they appoint the seven deacons, right, and there's 803 01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:59.760 no like divine revelation that says this is okay whatever. They just assume that 804 01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:04.159 they can delegate part of their authority, and they only delegate part right, 805 01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:08.480 So they say, we're going to still be preaching, so we're going to 806 01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:15.320 be the ones to explain, you know, the the gospel. They're going 807 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.599 to retain this kind of interpretation, you know function, but they say, 808 01:05:18.679 --> 01:05:21.079 we don't need to be you know, just serving tables or whatever, so 809 01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:27.920 we're going to delegate that to the deacons. And so one thing I would 810 01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:30.960 say about this also ties into kind of that this structure of you know, 811 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:35.440 bishop, priest and deacon. People sometimes argue about the well, where's you 812 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:40.360 know, where's this threefold structure? And I think you can't argue that actually 813 01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:42.800 is there in the New Testament. But even if it wasn't, I would 814 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:45.480 just say, it's just part of the same idea that you can delegate your 815 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:49.559 authority, and you can delegate part of your authorities. So in the same 816 01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:54.440 way that they just delegated sort of certain functions to the deacons, if they 817 01:05:54.559 --> 01:06:00.199 want to, they can delegate certain functions to priests but reserve certain functions for 818 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.000 themselves. And that's really what you have in the Orthodox Church, right as 819 01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:11.039 priests can kind of do everything except ordain priests and bishops. And the way 820 01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:14.079 that you by the way, you know an interesting, another interesting parallel, 821 01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:19.760 the way that you ordain a rabbi is you have to have three rabbis together 822 01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:25.840 to lay hands on someone to ordain the new rabbi. And that's what you 823 01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:30.000 do with bishops in the Orthodox Church. You have to have three bishops to 824 01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:33.480 all lay hands on the one bishop, right, And so it's the same 825 01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:36.880 sort of structure and the same issue too. It's like if you have sort 826 01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:41.559 of minor issues, you would go to your priest or your bishop, but 827 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:45.119 for a bigger, more serious issue, they have to have a counsel. 828 01:06:45.159 --> 01:06:47.559 And what's the council? What's at least three bishops, just like the bet 829 01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:51.880 then is at least three rabbis. Right. So there's these exactly parallel sort 830 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:57.639 of structures. And that's one reason why I did become Orthodox and not Catholic, 831 01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:01.760 is because there's not really anything in Judaism like um a papacy. Right, 832 01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:06.679 there's no sort of single head, there's a conciliar or synodal sort of 833 01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:14.000 modeling. It's the same structure in uh in in Orthodoxy um. And I 834 01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:15.800 guess that's basically what I would say that, you know, So it's you 835 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.239 know, in Judaism you don't have at least in orthodox Judaism, Um, 836 01:07:20.920 --> 01:07:25.320 you don't have um, you don't have a papacy, right, But you 837 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:28.920 also don't have just kind of a free for all where just anyone can interpret 838 01:07:29.719 --> 01:07:33.719 the Torah and issue halafa themselves. Right. And also you don't I mean, 839 01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:40.360 you know, Jews wouldn't say that that they're infallible necessaries. It's just 840 01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:45.119 sort of kind of like, once precedent has been set, that's the precedent. 841 01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:48.400 That's that's been set, right, that's that's how a few things now 842 01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:53.280 um. And uh, you know, I mean it's a similar sort of 843 01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:57.599 issue like with the Supreme Court. It's like, um, you know, 844 01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:02.440 the Supreme Court could overturn the Supreme Court, but a lower court can't. 845 01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:04.480 Even if a lower court, you know, if you're a judge in a 846 01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:11.039 lower court, you might think that the Supreme Court really made a bad decision 847 01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:14.199 on some case, but you just say, but you know, that's the 848 01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:17.399 way the authority structure is, right, So that's the because you do you 849 01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:21.880 know, if you want to have a functioning community, it can't just sort 850 01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:25.239 of be a free for all, right, Like it couldn't. It wouldn't 851 01:08:25.239 --> 01:08:29.399 work to have like the Constitution at a bunch of laws. But like we 852 01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:32.479 all just interpret the laws for ourselves, right, Like that delves into chaos 853 01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:38.159 real quick. Yeah, so you have to have some sort of some sort 854 01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:41.479 of system, you know, some some idea of who's and like you know, 855 01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:47.119 like I would say frequently, I think the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution 856 01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:53.159 incorrectly on of issues, But like I don't, I mean, but I 857 01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:57.520 understand, like we have to have a system right where I mean, someone 858 01:08:57.640 --> 01:09:01.239 has to have the final say even if they even they get it wrong. 859 01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:08.399 Anyway, that kind of gets into other issues about infallibility if I can, 860 01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:11.760 bo let me ask you this, because you're talking about Jesus delegating authority to 861 01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:16.239 the apostles. Do you think because Jesus does that, that sets the precedent 862 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:20.720 for the apostles to delegate authority in some sense anyway, maybe an aspect of 863 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:26.159 it, that sets the precedent for the apostles to delegate authority to those whom 864 01:09:26.199 --> 01:09:29.399 they choose. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying, is that's 865 01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:33.039 exactly. I mean, that's the system in Judaism is that rabbis can ordain 866 01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:38.640 new rabbis, right, um, and the and the new rabbi has the 867 01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:43.119 same you know, is equal in authority to any other rabbi. Right. 868 01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:46.119 And it looks like the same thing Jesus is just saying, you know, 869 01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:51.760 just like the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses, they have this authority 870 01:09:53.319 --> 01:09:58.239 to issue halaka, to make decisions about how to interpret the Torah, So 871 01:09:58.399 --> 01:10:01.800 you allow that they get that from Moses. Right, It's the spirit of 872 01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:08.359 Moses has been sent down this chain. And it just looks like what Jesus 873 01:10:08.439 --> 01:10:12.079 are doing with you know, even the whole symbolism of taking twelve disciples to 874 01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:16.560 represent the twelve tribes and then the seventy apostles like the seventy Elders. You 875 01:10:16.640 --> 01:10:20.279 know, it's like a head non affirmation to what Moses did there. Yeah, 876 01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:25.199 it's just kind of like he's starting a new Israel, right, it's 877 01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:30.039 but instead of Moses, it's Jesus, right, right, it's obviously higher, 878 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:33.680 higher authority. So yeah, that's how I see it. Is it 879 01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:40.479 just kind it just seems so obviously supposed to be this parallel thing. And 880 01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:45.720 another thing that I mean, I guess is a little bit off topic of 881 01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:48.000 Soli script to her. But you know, you don't see in in the 882 01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:56.159 Old Testament, right, there's plenty of times when Israel, um, you 883 01:10:56.239 --> 01:10:59.079 know, is doing all kinds of things that shouldn't be doing. I mean 884 01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:03.960 it down to even worshiping false gods, right, worshiping like literally putting idols 885 01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:09.199 in the temple and worshiping idols in the temple. Right. But there's a 886 01:11:09.319 --> 01:11:13.560 commandment, you know, if you are a male Jew, you have to 887 01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:17.399 go to Jerusalem to the temple three times a year and you have to make 888 01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:23.960 a sacrifice. And that's never like abrogated that. There's never a revelation from 889 01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.079 a prophet or something that says, oh well, because they're all screwed up 890 01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:30.119 and they're doing everything wrong. It doesn't count anymore, and you should just 891 01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:33.000 kind of make sacrifices at home, or we should start our own temple or 892 01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:36.239 something like that. Right, It's just like, that's the Temple, so 893 01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:41.399 you have to go there and don't worship the idols while you're there. But 894 01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:44.920 but you still, you know, I mean, that's still that's still Israel, 895 01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:48.760 and that's still the Temple. There's there's no there's no such thing as 896 01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:53.840 Protestantism in the Old Testament, right, I Mean the closest thing you get 897 01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:57.319 to it would be something like the Samaritans, right, who start their own 898 01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:02.880 temple. But I mean even even Jesus in the New Testament is just like, 899 01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:06.199 yeah, salvations from the Jews, not the you know, when he's 900 01:12:06.239 --> 01:12:11.199 talking to the Samaritan woman like yeah, yeah, salvation, that's us. 901 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:16.600 But um, yeah, I mean you first go to the Samaritans, then 902 01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:21.600 to the Gentiles, right, so first used in the Samaritans energy, but 903 01:12:21.880 --> 01:12:27.880 um, but yeah, just bo doesn't he also say that there's a time 904 01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:30.520 where you won't have to go to this temple or that temple, but you 905 01:12:30.640 --> 01:12:36.000 worship mean spirit in truth. Yeah, that seems very Protestant. Uh, 906 01:12:36.359 --> 01:12:42.079 it doesn't to me. Here's I guess here's why, um, because if 907 01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:46.399 you notice, right in the Book of Acts um, and this is after 908 01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:50.680 the resurrections, there's after the Crucifixion, after the resurrection, after the ascension 909 01:12:51.560 --> 01:12:58.960 um, even after Pentecost, right um, the the disciples were worshiping in 910 01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:04.760 the temple. Uh. And and you don't do anything in the temple except 911 01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:10.520 offer sacrifices, right, well, they also preached in the temple, right 912 01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:15.520 so like uh yeah, and they and and and also at that time, 913 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:20.119 gentiles also couldn't go into uh the inner parts of the temple still either. 914 01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:25.560 I would say that they were They were probably doing that, uh, probably 915 01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:30.560 up to seventy a d anyway, because Christ hadn't done that Judge Final Judgment 916 01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:33.880 or Jerusalem yet that I think he was predicting. So, I mean, 917 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:38.239 you could look at it from that way too, I think so. But 918 01:13:38.399 --> 01:13:40.399 no, Jay, go ahead, man, I'm sorry, No, I'm 919 01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:45.039 the host here, I'm not. I don't want to stop. I would 920 01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:49.319 say that even though Jesus says that it will not be in this temple alone, 921 01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:54.359 that you would worship the Father, we do find, and that even 922 01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:57.279 in the New Testament tax and even in places you might not expect, like 923 01:13:57.319 --> 01:14:00.560 the Book of Hebrews, for example, Hebrews teen, which is a ballot 924 01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:05.399 as you know what elements are fulfilled. In the New Testament, Hebrews doesn't 925 01:14:05.720 --> 01:14:09.560 get rid of the notion of an altar. In fact, and Hebrews thirteen, 926 01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:13.960 Paul says that we have an altar from which those who served the Tabernacle 927 01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:19.880 have no right to eat. So altar sacrifice and eating is still very important 928 01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:25.159 in the New Testament churches worship, which he identifies with the heavenly Jerusalem. 929 01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:30.600 For us, when the apocalypse is revealed to John and he sees this ordered 930 01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:33.720 liturgical worship service in heaven. You look at Revelations four to five and six. 931 01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:39.239 You notice he sees all the incense, he sees people wearing vestiments, 932 01:14:39.279 --> 01:14:43.319 elders, he sees angels. Looks very much like an Orthodox Church service, 933 01:14:43.399 --> 01:14:46.960 because for us, the divine liturgy is that celebration of the heavenly worship on 934 01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:51.159 earth. So while it's true that Jesus is saying to the woman, the 935 01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:55.600 Samaritan woman, if you think about her context or her dispute with the Jews. 936 01:14:56.199 --> 01:15:00.199 It was precisely over the question of where should we worship God, says 937 01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:02.640 Jacob's Well, Jesus says, no, sorry, it was at the temple. 938 01:15:02.720 --> 01:15:06.920 That was the theologically correct position. However, a time is coming when 939 01:15:08.119 --> 01:15:12.199 the whole world will worship God in spirit and in truth. That just means 940 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:15.039 in the Holy spirit. Right. It's not saying that there won't be specific 941 01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:19.159 places that we gather to that are holy. In fact, the New Testament 942 01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:25.800 includes the notions of certain locations actually being holy. Peter saysn't his epistle that 943 01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:30.399 Jesus was transfigured on the Holy Mountain. We know that in the gospels. 944 01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:32.680 Right, we have the pool where the angels stirs, and the Gospel of 945 01:15:32.720 --> 01:15:39.239 John the pool. So it's a holy site. So alters holy things which 946 01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:43.119 are typically kind of contrary to the Protestant idea of well that's all fulfilled. 947 01:15:43.199 --> 01:15:45.600 That's a Old Testament. Ceremonies might have holy things anymore. There's many many 948 01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:48.920 instances I would say, where we find this carried over in the New Testament. 949 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:56.319 I was gonna to finish what I was going to say. When they 950 01:15:56.399 --> 01:16:00.520 go to the temple, right you, you we do offer a sacrifice than 951 01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:03.560 the temple, right. And if you think about it theologically, it would 952 01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:10.680 be it would make no sense to be offering blood sacrifices, right, or 953 01:16:10.920 --> 01:16:15.279 offerings for sin. But if you if you're familiar with the sacrificial system, 954 01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:21.640 right, the one one offering that is not in any way connected with sin 955 01:16:21.880 --> 01:16:27.640 and it doesn't involve a blood sacrifice is the thank offering or the Eucharist, 956 01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:32.680 right, which is also specifically leavened bread. Um. That's the other whole 957 01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:35.000 other issue. But but it's interesting. You know, a lot of times 958 01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:38.680 people don't think about this. They think, oh, well, this sacrificial 959 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:43.000 system has been sort of done away with because Christ is the final, you 960 01:16:43.079 --> 01:16:46.880 know, sacrifice for our sins. But there is a sacrifice that's still left, 961 01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:51.600 right that is not a sacrifice for sins um. And it's it's the 962 01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:56.560 bread offering, right, the grain offering or the thank offering. Um. 963 01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:00.520 And in the Book of Acts, what you read is that the decid would 964 01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:03.920 go to the temple every day, um. And then it says they would 965 01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:08.520 go home and break bread from house to house. And if you know about 966 01:17:08.600 --> 01:17:15.520 the the thank offering, it would be it would be a pretty substantial amount 967 01:17:15.560 --> 01:17:18.600 of bread, and the commandment says that you can't let any of it. 968 01:17:19.199 --> 01:17:24.000 Um, you can't leave any of it over for the for the next day. 969 01:17:24.680 --> 01:17:28.439 Uh. And the idea there is partly that you would, um, 970 01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:34.039 you would then be sort of incentivized to to feed hungry people or invite people 971 01:17:34.119 --> 01:17:38.920 to come and share it because you can't, um, you can't leave any 972 01:17:38.960 --> 01:17:41.760 of it over, right, so you have to you have to make a 973 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:44.720 big amount, so you have to share it with people. So it looked 974 01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:46.239 I mean, it looks very much like I mean, they're they're going to 975 01:17:46.359 --> 01:17:53.119 the temple to worship, and that's you would normally think where you would offer 976 01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:58.119 a sacrifice. And then it specifically says they're they go home and break bread 977 01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:01.560 from house to house. So it looks very much like the Eucharist, and 978 01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:06.239 it looks like they're still doing that, you know, in the temple and 979 01:18:06.359 --> 01:18:12.079 in a sacrificial sort of way like with the Old Testament Temple liturgy of the 980 01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:17.119 grain offering. And then of course once the Temple's destroyed, um, they 981 01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:23.279 and presumably in you know, outside of Jerusalem and other places, they would 982 01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:28.199 just celebrate that on their own. But it doesn't look to me. I 983 01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:32.239 mean, you know, you still have to have someone sort of again delegated 984 01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:39.840 to to do that to make that offering right. And it doesn't seem to 985 01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:44.000 me that there's any indication that it's just again kind of a free for all, 986 01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:53.279 like anyone can just consecrate the Eucharist or whatever that I see anyway, 987 01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:57.479 right, I appreciate that, Bo David, is er any follow up since 988 01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.399 you brought up or okay, right, let's shift gears then for a minute. 989 01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:10.439 So we recently did on Faith Unaltered a couple of shows, one entitled 990 01:19:10.479 --> 01:19:15.960 Why We're Orthodox, the other entitled Why We're Protestant, and Dell, unfortunately 991 01:19:15.079 --> 01:19:19.840 being a Protestant, he had some issues going on while we were doing that 992 01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:28.479 first episode, and so he actually had came back on the podcast in order 993 01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:32.199 to give his side of the story. And there's a quote that I want 994 01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:34.760 to I want to read and I want to get Jay, I want to 995 01:19:34.760 --> 01:19:38.399 get your opinion on it, and doctor Branson, I want to get your 996 01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:43.039 opinion on it as well. But in this episode he says, Dell says 997 01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:46.800 this. He says, quote, we have the Protestant Bible thirty nine books 998 01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:50.680 in the Old Testament as well as the twenty seven books in the New Testament 999 01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:56.520 in Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Protestants all agree that these books are in 1000 01:19:56.600 --> 01:20:00.239 the canon. Therefore, great Protestants win the debate and can use the sixty 1001 01:20:00.319 --> 01:20:05.119 six books as a standard to assess any other later books, doctrines, or 1002 01:20:05.239 --> 01:20:09.560 traditions that may come up. And as I get into the fourth topic, 1003 01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:14.520 I'll say that I think some Orthodox and Catholic doctrines and other books are inconsistent 1004 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:18.800 with the Protestant Bible end quote. What would your guys's response be, specifically 1005 01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:24.840 to the understanding that because we all agree on the sixty six books, therefore 1006 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:29.279 the Protestants win the debate by default, and Orthodox and Roman Catholics would need 1007 01:20:29.359 --> 01:20:33.239 to justify our other books. I'll just qualify go ahead, because so that 1008 01:20:33.359 --> 01:20:39.920 wasn't an argument for Protestantism in all of its doctrines. It was mirror. 1009 01:20:40.039 --> 01:20:45.359 That was an argument for mirror Protestantism being the default. So yeah, over 1010 01:20:45.520 --> 01:20:47.000 to you guys to answer that. Yeah, Jay, if you want to 1011 01:20:47.079 --> 01:20:50.239 take this one first, you can. Well, my first sense would be 1012 01:20:50.399 --> 01:20:56.960 that it's a fallacious reasoning, because the fact that we all three agree on 1013 01:20:57.199 --> 01:21:02.760 something would really have nothing to do with its status in terms of whether it's 1014 01:21:02.760 --> 01:21:05.800 true or false. And I mean I hear a lot of people arguing all 1015 01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:11.840 the time that you know, people say, well, the churches don't agree, 1016 01:21:11.960 --> 01:21:15.960 so how do you How can what you're saying be the case if if 1017 01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:18.720 all the churches and the different groups out they all disagree, so why should 1018 01:21:18.720 --> 01:21:21.960 we believe you what? It's kind of premise on the same kind of reasoning 1019 01:21:23.119 --> 01:21:29.479 that the status of agreement or disagreement really has nothing to do whatsoever with whether 1020 01:21:30.119 --> 01:21:33.159 this list or that list is correct or false. So that's number one of 1021 01:21:33.199 --> 01:21:42.520 fallacy. I would say that the another point would be that, well, 1022 01:21:43.079 --> 01:21:47.119 if there's divine revelation in those other texts, then it really again doesn't matter 1023 01:21:48.159 --> 01:21:51.600 how far we scale it down or how like. It's a question of what 1024 01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:58.439 the divine revelation in Toto is right, So there's not this is really irrelevant 1025 01:21:58.520 --> 01:22:02.720 to what the content revelation is, what groups except or reject what. It's 1026 01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:06.720 a question of what is that content? What is that divine revelation? So 1027 01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:13.239 that is going to be known again only through some kind of historical attestation of 1028 01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:16.920 a historical body that preserved it, and decided, you know what the book 1029 01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:20.800 would be, and it doesn't matter like how many Protestant groups kind of come 1030 01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:24.520 along and say, well, I like this can, and I like this 1031 01:22:24.640 --> 01:22:27.880 can, and it really ends up being kind of something that any individual Protestant 1032 01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:33.439 could conceivably construct on his own. Because if the Protestant idea of not being 1033 01:22:33.479 --> 01:22:38.039 bound by anybody else's interpretation, the right to private interpretation, the right to 1034 01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:43.000 freedom of conscience, and so forth in these matters, then on what basis 1035 01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:46.960 everybody probably knows that, you know, Luther disagreed or doubted certain books. 1036 01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:50.800 Let's say, for the sake of argument, Luther said, I reject the 1037 01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:56.560 Catholic Epistles and the Book of Revelation. On what basis can a Protestant really 1038 01:22:56.720 --> 01:23:00.600 say, well, you don't have the authority to do that, because it 1039 01:23:00.720 --> 01:23:05.720 doesn't really matter what if the Protestant position is right, it's premised on the 1040 01:23:05.800 --> 01:23:10.399 notion that it doesn't matter what any historical groups said what the canon of scripture 1041 01:23:10.600 --> 01:23:13.680 was, So the fact that we all agree on it is really irrelevant to 1042 01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:18.239 the Protestant presupposition of the right of private interpretation and the authority of the individual 1043 01:23:18.319 --> 01:23:21.760 to basically, I've done my own research. I prayed a lot about it. 1044 01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:26.399 By the way, I always I like to propose this thought experiment to 1045 01:23:26.439 --> 01:23:29.520 Protestants when this comes up, I just simply say, what would you say 1046 01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:32.159 to me if I said, I've done a lot of praying and the Holy 1047 01:23:32.239 --> 01:23:34.880 Spirit is lat me it trust me. I've read a lot of conservative scholars, 1048 01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:39.079 and I believe the only acceptable book of the New Testament is just the 1049 01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:42.800 Book of Jude. That's it. So sorry, you're all wrong, But 1050 01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:46.399 I want to know, like, on what basis would you say that that's 1051 01:23:46.399 --> 01:23:49.239 wrong? Because I can appeal ultimately to the guidence of the Holy Spirit, 1052 01:23:49.680 --> 01:23:55.479 to my own personal striving for truth what typically a lot of Protestants appealed to. 1053 01:23:55.960 --> 01:23:59.119 But if we don't have any normative authority, as we say, in 1054 01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:02.119 terms of philosophy, right within history, how are we gonna how are we 1055 01:24:02.479 --> 01:24:08.079 going to on what? How would we adjudicate that position being wrong? Or 1056 01:24:08.279 --> 01:24:12.239 luthor throwing out certain you know, five six books in the New Testament? 1057 01:24:12.319 --> 01:24:18.279 Like why would that be wrong? Oh? Are you asking? Um? 1058 01:24:18.760 --> 01:24:24.239 Yes? The way the way we're warranted, I would say, is in 1059 01:24:24.359 --> 01:24:29.119 the same way as the almost in the same way as the Orthodox position according 1060 01:24:29.159 --> 01:24:31.000 to Father Jonathan, And I know from what you said it sounds like you 1061 01:24:31.039 --> 01:24:36.079 have some differences with him. But um, I don't know. He's an 1062 01:24:36.159 --> 01:24:42.279 Orthodox priest. He's been on the show a couple of times. But Father 1063 01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:45.159 Jonathan, I'm not familiar with it. I don't know what what how would 1064 01:24:45.159 --> 01:24:46.960 you know? How differences? So, so, at the end of the 1065 01:24:47.079 --> 01:24:50.439 day, the way it's warranted. Look, we appeal to the Holy Spirit. 1066 01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:59.640 This provides us with a warranted true belief with respect to this. So, 1067 01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:01.800 but appealing to the Holy Spirit, as I was arguing, it can 1068 01:25:01.880 --> 01:25:06.520 give that's the ultimate thing that every individual will rely on. But when we 1069 01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:12.439 raise the question of normative authority and delusion, that shifts out of just the 1070 01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:16.880 individual existential experience domain into the public domain, and that involves history. Right, 1071 01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:21.479 So on what basis would you say that any Protestant with a different canon 1072 01:25:23.239 --> 01:25:28.000 is wrong or in delusion because we're going to have to appeal to some historical 1073 01:25:28.119 --> 01:25:31.960 normative authority. Right, that's different than existential assurance. So there are two 1074 01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:38.399 different categories. They're related, but there's two responses. In the first place, 1075 01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:45.479 on the individual level, Remember I said warrant not justification. Warrant carries 1076 01:25:45.520 --> 01:25:50.760 with it a factive component as an episdemic criterion. So under Alvin Planting his 1077 01:25:50.840 --> 01:25:56.840 definition warranted, it entails that if we're warranted, then the belief is in 1078 01:25:57.000 --> 01:26:00.479 fact true. So that's just a part of the definition warrant and that it 1079 01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:05.640 just comes down to you, do you know internally whether you're warranted or not? 1080 01:26:08.319 --> 01:26:12.960 But that's not But I was talking about the public notion of normativity as 1081 01:26:13.079 --> 01:26:18.520 distinct from the individual subjective assurance. Two different Okay, so maybe I think 1082 01:26:18.560 --> 01:26:23.399 I might be answering you with the second, more objective argument. And this 1083 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:26.600 is where I was trying to say, I'm kind kind of like you, 1084 01:26:26.720 --> 01:26:30.479 guys, but a bit different in that I would say, Look, it's 1085 01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:39.439 this the Holy Spirit acting upon in true individual Christians across denominations, overall of 1086 01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:44.840 time. And so for us, for example, the list of canon that 1087 01:26:44.960 --> 01:26:50.119 we accept would be Trolo slash sixth Council. Right, So do you think 1088 01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:58.760 that there's another way to identify the Biblical canon than that historical process? I 1089 01:26:58.880 --> 01:27:01.600 think that they're I think that there is. I think it's it's just basically 1090 01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:08.600 the Holy Spirit working within the So there's not any public way to adjudicate between 1091 01:27:08.800 --> 01:27:16.039 competing Holy Spirit claims. The only the only way to do that is by 1092 01:27:16.159 --> 01:27:24.920 saying that I think that the majority of true Christians over time have all accepted 1093 01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:30.640 these books. And well there's only that. Again, that's presupposing that Protestants, 1094 01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:33.399 Orthodox and Roman Catholics are all true Christians. And so how do you 1095 01:27:33.479 --> 01:27:38.359 know you have the right definition or category of what who? I mean? 1096 01:27:38.399 --> 01:27:41.600 Are Mormons? Right? Are there excluded? Presumably? Right? Yeah, 1097 01:27:42.039 --> 01:27:45.720 they would be excluded. So but wouldn't they be excluded in part because they 1098 01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:49.920 don't have the Nicene teaching of aternity. Yeah, that's exactly why I would 1099 01:27:50.359 --> 01:27:54.840 deny them. Okay, so but does that mean that you accept the Council 1100 01:27:54.840 --> 01:28:00.439 of Nicea. Yeah, I believe that the Count Nicia more or less has 1101 01:28:00.520 --> 01:28:05.640 true propositions. I don't think it's inspired or anything more infallible or anything. 1102 01:28:05.760 --> 01:28:11.399 But well, what do you think goes into a council? For example? 1103 01:28:12.359 --> 01:28:15.840 Do you think it's just the confession that's produced or what do you think is 1104 01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:20.359 entailed there? Yes, so my understanding and you kind of this is why 1105 01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:24.840 I was asking you before. I thought that the Orthodox view is that when 1106 01:28:24.880 --> 01:28:30.760 a council comes together, they are almost getting some kind of inspired divine revelation. 1107 01:28:30.960 --> 01:28:34.520 Well, but I'm asking on your perspective. I'm just wondering because you 1108 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:38.840 said, I accept Nicia, but when I go to the Canons of Nicia, 1109 01:28:39.520 --> 01:28:43.359 I mean they teach probably twenty things that you don't believe. Are you 1110 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:46.000 familiar with those things? Probably not. No, I'm just thinking of the 1111 01:28:46.079 --> 01:28:49.479 trinity aspect of it. So well, wait a minute. So but Nicia 1112 01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:54.319 and then the nice constant Politan creates as for example, I believe in one 1113 01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:59.079 Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I would argue that it makes sense to 1114 01:28:59.359 --> 01:29:01.840 interpret at the way the people that wrote it right meant it. So, 1115 01:29:01.920 --> 01:29:10.279 for example, Cappadocian theology basilness up when they wrote one Holy Upsolite Church. 1116 01:29:10.359 --> 01:29:15.279 There for the creed. They're referring to the visible episcopal structure that is attending 1117 01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:18.680 those councils. Right, they were bishops. They did the eucharists, right. 1118 01:29:18.720 --> 01:29:21.520 The candidate Nicea talk about the Eucharist. It talks about giving the euchris 1119 01:29:21.600 --> 01:29:25.760 to the dead. It talks about feasts, it talks about virgins, It 1120 01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:30.319 talks about all of these things that Protestants don't accept. So when you say, 1121 01:29:30.359 --> 01:29:33.800 well, I accept Nicia, Nicia is predicated on a kind of historic 1122 01:29:33.880 --> 01:29:39.800 authority. So you're not accepting Nicia. You're saying, I accept the Trinity, 1123 01:29:39.960 --> 01:29:44.880 not the Council of Nicea. Yeah, it's exactly. I think you 1124 01:29:45.000 --> 01:29:46.760 said. It was your second point that you gave in your opening, where 1125 01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:51.000 I would take the views of Protestant. Look, I'm accepting the true propositions 1126 01:29:51.600 --> 01:29:56.000 that are that are all. So now it's not the Council of Nicia, 1127 01:29:56.159 --> 01:29:59.880 and it's not even it's not it's your right, not the right the creed 1128 01:30:00.119 --> 01:30:02.319 that's produced by the First and second councils. Right, So it's not the 1129 01:30:02.479 --> 01:30:10.880 creed that I like. Right, Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. 1130 01:30:11.000 --> 01:30:15.079 As a as a historian, we would want to understand what the people 1131 01:30:15.239 --> 01:30:18.319 meant, and okay, for the sake of argument, maybe they meant a 1132 01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:23.760 visible universal Church. I disagree with them. I think that there's an invisible 1133 01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:27.640 universal Church. So I would reject that part of the council. So yeah, 1134 01:30:27.680 --> 01:30:30.640 so I am subscribing. Well, it's interesting because we don't but see 1135 01:30:31.119 --> 01:30:36.840 through these centuries. Then what you're saying is the true Christian appeared at first 1136 01:30:38.039 --> 01:30:42.640 to be aligned with Nicia and people's public confession. But now it's getting scaled 1137 01:30:42.760 --> 01:30:45.359 down right what, Oh no, actually it's not what you guys are saying. 1138 01:30:45.560 --> 01:30:47.920 You guys are not actually a true church. It was what that would 1139 01:30:47.920 --> 01:30:51.960 amount to. At least the classical reformers, many of them were consistent enough 1140 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:56.399 to say that the Roman, Catholic and Orthodox churches are not true churches. 1141 01:30:56.800 --> 01:31:00.600 So is a true Christian? Now the pert and this this was your measure 1142 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:05.000 of then whose Canada Scripture we accept? You see that it's getting whittled down 1143 01:31:05.039 --> 01:31:10.079 to basically just being Protestantism. So it's assuming the thing the thing that was 1144 01:31:10.159 --> 01:31:15.479 in question. So in terms of okay, so to start, let me 1145 01:31:15.520 --> 01:31:17.279 rephrase it like this, and I don't mean to catch off it. So 1146 01:31:17.359 --> 01:31:21.560 basically you're saying that the Canada Scripture is determined by what the true Christians at 1147 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:26.439 all times believed. The true Christians at all times believe the propositions out of 1148 01:31:26.520 --> 01:31:32.119 Nicia that affirm Protestantism that I adhere to. So basically it's just restating your 1149 01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:36.479 position of what Protestant Christianity is is now scaled down to what a true Christian 1150 01:31:36.640 --> 01:31:41.640 is because the canon then is just what the Protestant canon was. But none 1151 01:31:41.680 --> 01:31:45.720 of that, all of that is just a big circle. So I wouldn't 1152 01:31:45.800 --> 01:31:48.479 say necessary all of true Christianity. I'm just saying kind of. It's an 1153 01:31:48.560 --> 01:31:55.319 argument that the default is. One way we can identify which doctrines are true 1154 01:31:55.399 --> 01:32:01.439 Christianity is that the majority of Christians across x or different sex and denominations over 1155 01:32:01.680 --> 01:32:06.479 time subscribe to it and only the protest hold on. But in the Aryan 1156 01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:12.600 Crisis, the big contention of Nicea orthodoxy was in the far in the minority. 1157 01:32:13.439 --> 01:32:17.600 So would that make Aryan and semi arianism true because it was the majority 1158 01:32:17.640 --> 01:32:23.680 at the time of Nicea. Well, there's been about seventeen hundred years where 1159 01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:27.119 Arianism is not the majority of view. So well, but I'm saying, 1160 01:32:27.199 --> 01:32:30.560 let's just take your position and imagine that we're a Christian in the year three 1161 01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:33.159 hundred. Well, how would you on your principles, how would we know 1162 01:32:33.359 --> 01:32:38.640 where the where the true delineator between a true Christian and a false Christian is. 1163 01:32:38.920 --> 01:32:42.319 Well, we'll see that. Okay, So at that time we might 1164 01:32:42.439 --> 01:32:45.399 have an issue. Right, But I'm saying for me, right now, 1165 01:32:45.600 --> 01:32:48.520 is your position out to be true from the beginning. I mean, no, 1166 01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:54.239 I'm saying, we have a mechanism today as Protestants to know, Um 1167 01:32:54.479 --> 01:32:58.720 that just not the same works. Now, it wouldn't It wouldn't have worked 1168 01:32:59.039 --> 01:33:02.000 for the first several centuries. Yeah, they would have had another mechanism to 1169 01:33:02.159 --> 01:33:06.199 tell at that time because and that would be what I mean so is that 1170 01:33:06.319 --> 01:33:10.640 this is basically a mission that the first several centuries of the church is not 1171 01:33:10.720 --> 01:33:19.039 the Protestant Church right, No again bis Christianity. Um, so it was 1172 01:33:19.119 --> 01:33:25.439 biblical Christianity at this point, but they don't have access to a clear canon 1173 01:33:25.560 --> 01:33:28.359 and no way to really recognize the true and the false church, is what 1174 01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:32.000 you were admitting. No, I'm I'm saying, so they had a different 1175 01:33:32.079 --> 01:33:39.079 mechanism right through the Holy Spirit of recognizing which scriptures in the first century they 1176 01:33:39.359 --> 01:33:42.640 also had What is this mechanism and what do you have any evidence of this 1177 01:33:42.840 --> 01:33:45.760 from history? Or you're just sort of assertingness. I'm not trying to be 1178 01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:48.279 mean. I'm just saying, like Jay, you're kind of leading him to 1179 01:33:48.760 --> 01:33:51.479 um, let him answer first. Let's let's see what he's got to say 1180 01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:55.720 in a roundabout way. First, So, well, he's asserted the mechanism 1181 01:33:55.800 --> 01:33:59.039 I just want to know what. Yeah, So okay, let Jay, 1182 01:33:59.119 --> 01:34:01.720 let me ask you a yes or no question. Would you accept that there 1183 01:34:01.880 --> 01:34:08.199 could be additional mechanisms that apply today that maybe didn't apply back then, that 1184 01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:14.880 are valid, like progressive revelation or something. Yeah? Are you saying like 1185 01:34:15.760 --> 01:34:19.720 that we today, because of information the Internet, we have access to mechanisms 1186 01:34:19.840 --> 01:34:24.119 for determining things in history that they didn't have. Then is that what you're 1187 01:34:24.119 --> 01:34:27.800 getting at? Well? No, because the original question that Tyler asked is 1188 01:34:28.000 --> 01:34:32.960 my mirror Protestantism as the default. So it's an argument that I had and 1189 01:34:33.359 --> 01:34:38.560 the principle, how do we discern that today? Is that? Okay? 1190 01:34:38.600 --> 01:34:45.119 Well, for two years, the majority of Christians across denominations or sex all 1191 01:34:45.199 --> 01:34:50.520 accept these sixty six Protestant books, some of them accept others additional ones, 1192 01:34:50.680 --> 01:34:55.760 but everyone agrees on these. So we can say at least these we know 1193 01:34:55.960 --> 01:35:01.199 are inspired. But why would the majority accept didn't somehow equate to the proposition 1194 01:35:01.479 --> 01:35:05.359 that therefore those are the true books. That's what I'm calling into question, 1195 01:35:05.399 --> 01:35:11.039 the assumption they're basically and by the way, what exactly was the mechanism I 1196 01:35:11.159 --> 01:35:15.840 didn't hear that you responded with a two quot quay, But what was the 1197 01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:20.199 mechanism. It's the Holy Spirit producing properly basic beliefs with respect to these books 1198 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:25.880 and their status over time across the denominations. So in fact, in the 1199 01:35:25.960 --> 01:35:28.880 third, fourth, and fifth century, the true Christians did know the Canon 1200 01:35:28.920 --> 01:35:34.319 of Scripture. Yeah, I think yeah for the most part. I mean, 1201 01:35:34.560 --> 01:35:38.600 how if many of them couldn't read, and many of them didn't have 1202 01:35:38.720 --> 01:35:42.760 access to a full Canon of Scripture, were they somehow knowing in these centuries 1203 01:35:42.840 --> 01:35:45.000 before the Cannon actually came to be, which is a consensus of basically every 1204 01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:48.880 Protestant scholar, how were they knowing the Canon of Scripture? Yeah? So 1205 01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:54.760 I think I think you're right that the that the people who were illiterate couldn't 1206 01:35:54.800 --> 01:35:57.439 read it for themselves, but they could happen with most of them, right, 1207 01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:00.920 they could have it read to them and in that case they recognize the 1208 01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:04.039 Word of God that's being read to them. But at the local churches, 1209 01:36:04.079 --> 01:36:09.079 as I showed from Lee McDonald, many of them didn't have the full sixty 1210 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:13.439 six books nor the full Orthodox canon eventually, which comes about by the Six 1211 01:36:13.520 --> 01:36:16.199 Councils So what I'm saying is, what's the mechanism by which they're supposed to 1212 01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:21.239 know the canon of scripture, which, by I'm just saying, by necessity, 1213 01:36:21.720 --> 01:36:26.680 they can't know that. You see, Oh yeah, well, I 1214 01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:29.840 mean, yeah, of course. I don't think any Christian in the first 1215 01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:31.960 century knew the full canon of the New Tests, well, say, the 1216 01:36:32.079 --> 01:36:35.800 third century. So remember this was supposed to delineate true and false Christians, 1217 01:36:35.840 --> 01:36:40.479 And you're saying that it's the lowest common nominator of people who believed in the 1218 01:36:40.640 --> 01:36:44.359 things that were taught in scripture, but they didn't even know what the scriptures 1219 01:36:44.399 --> 01:36:46.680 were because they didn't have access to a full canon. That's kind of what 1220 01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:49.880 I'm getting at. So the average guy in the year three hundred, shouldn't 1221 01:36:49.920 --> 01:36:54.560 the means of salvation be the same for somebody staved in the year three hundred 1222 01:36:55.039 --> 01:37:00.359 somebody staved in the year twenty twenty three, necessarily, so the means of 1223 01:37:00.439 --> 01:37:04.520 salvation, yes, the conditions for salvation, but not necessarily the means of 1224 01:37:04.880 --> 01:37:09.119 learning that. That's That's what I was trying to argue, is that today 1225 01:37:09.279 --> 01:37:15.000 we have an additional mechanism that I think warrants my my Protestant default argument. 1226 01:37:15.760 --> 01:37:20.479 Uh, and you're right that that type of argument wouldn't necessarily apply for Christians 1227 01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:25.600 in three hundred eighty years before, so I would need to postulate some other 1228 01:37:25.680 --> 01:37:30.319 mechanism like the Holy Spirit James White type type argument. And we can debate 1229 01:37:30.439 --> 01:37:33.600 that. So but how but doesn't it matter which cannon we have, whether 1230 01:37:33.640 --> 01:37:39.159 it's right or wrong? Right? Well, I mean I don't think so. 1231 01:37:39.319 --> 01:37:42.239 I mean, no one I thought. I thought the cannon was part 1232 01:37:42.279 --> 01:37:46.560 of true and false Christians. So now but it's it's not an essential belief 1233 01:37:46.680 --> 01:37:50.840 necessary the way the way I well, it's interact. I could conceivably scale 1234 01:37:50.880 --> 01:37:56.520 it down to just the Book of Jew so the way so the way I 1235 01:37:56.640 --> 01:38:00.960 determined the essential you know, you're you're a damned or take versus, you're 1236 01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:04.840 a Christian. A true Christian is from the Bible. So it's whatever the 1237 01:38:04.880 --> 01:38:10.199 Bible. But the question originally was what are the contempts of the Bible? 1238 01:38:10.279 --> 01:38:15.760 So that's being assumed in that answer. Exactly. It's implicit that you need 1239 01:38:15.800 --> 01:38:20.199 to know what the criteria are. So that's what we're here to talk about. 1240 01:38:20.279 --> 01:38:24.079 So you know, we can't just say, well, it's the Bible 1241 01:38:24.319 --> 01:38:28.399 the Bible's the Bible? How do we know what books are the right list 1242 01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:30.640 of books? For example? And the reason this matters is a point that, 1243 01:38:30.640 --> 01:38:32.520 for example, Luther makes. Luther makes the point that, well, 1244 01:38:32.720 --> 01:38:36.880 I definitely don't want Maccabee's and Sarah can some of these other due to orcanonical 1245 01:38:36.960 --> 01:38:43.079 texts in there, because they give credence to the notion of prayers for the 1246 01:38:43.159 --> 01:38:45.640 debt, they give create us the notion of works going up as a memorial 1247 01:38:45.760 --> 01:38:49.239 before God. So you know, for Luther, it was very important to 1248 01:38:49.279 --> 01:38:56.159 exclude those because the three the theological presuppositions that Luther had to set works and 1249 01:38:56.319 --> 01:39:00.800 law and grace and law in a dialectic couldn't allow for texts that could be 1250 01:39:01.199 --> 01:39:05.079 supportive of what he was arguing against Catholics. Right, So, in other 1251 01:39:05.119 --> 01:39:10.359 words, just theological presuppositions determined for him the canon of scripture. And I'm 1252 01:39:10.359 --> 01:39:13.840 just saying that seems to me that the Protestant position will be a lot more 1253 01:39:13.960 --> 01:39:15.680 honest if it was. I'm not calling you out or saying you're a bad 1254 01:39:15.720 --> 01:39:18.960 person. I'm just saying if we were to say that, look, you 1255 01:39:19.039 --> 01:39:26.760 know, ultimately Protestantism's view of the canon presupposed Protestantism. That's kind of the 1256 01:39:26.840 --> 01:39:30.640 point. I'm not okay, I need to think that over. I'm not 1257 01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:34.600 sure that it presupposes it, but I yeah, Like, can I just 1258 01:39:34.760 --> 01:39:41.840 interject one thing, that's it's not the case that everyone agrees on those sixty 1259 01:39:41.920 --> 01:39:47.439 six books two, So I think that's something you're maybe not taking into account. 1260 01:39:49.079 --> 01:39:57.000 Doesn't have second, third John or second Peter. There's an Armenian canon 1261 01:39:57.079 --> 01:40:00.399 of scripture that doesn't have a few of the book books. Um, I 1262 01:40:00.479 --> 01:40:04.720 mean, so there are there are New Testament cannons and Old Testament cannons that 1263 01:40:04.800 --> 01:40:10.079 are that are smaller than the Protestant cannon. Yeah, but the majority of 1264 01:40:10.600 --> 01:40:17.159 Christians over times are Roman Catholics, aren't they? Yeah, so we should 1265 01:40:17.199 --> 01:40:24.079 just be Roman Catholic. No, I'm just saying that's we can accept what 1266 01:40:24.720 --> 01:40:30.960 the majority of those Christians across the denominations accept on what basis the scripture is 1267 01:40:30.199 --> 01:40:35.520 right? On what basis are we supposed to adopt the majority position? Argument 1268 01:40:35.840 --> 01:40:41.159 that seems to come prepackaged with assumptions. Basically, Well, I think because 1269 01:40:41.199 --> 01:40:44.840 the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit that this is now we're back to 1270 01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:48.920 the Bible, and I think the bottom line of it is, I don't 1271 01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:55.039 think we're getting a non circular definition, right, Isn't that It seems like 1272 01:40:55.079 --> 01:41:00.159 we're sort of defining the Bible in terms of what true Christians believe. But 1273 01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:03.680 then how we determine who's a true Christian is going to be partly determined by 1274 01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:09.880 what's in the Bible, which amounts to a Protestant reading. So, if 1275 01:41:09.920 --> 01:41:13.239 I can interject her real quick, is this so I watch your debate with 1276 01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:17.039 Pedro, Jay, is this the same line of argumentation that Pedro is using 1277 01:41:17.199 --> 01:41:21.560 that It took a little bit of the debate and he still really didn't grasp 1278 01:41:23.399 --> 01:41:27.239 what you and even the audience was trying to show him in his circular reasoning. 1279 01:41:27.600 --> 01:41:30.159 Is that kind of the same thing that's going on here? Or am 1280 01:41:30.199 --> 01:41:33.039 I off? There was a point I think in the debate where Pedro did 1281 01:41:34.319 --> 01:41:38.760 go down this line of thought. And remember two specific points that he made. 1282 01:41:38.760 --> 01:41:41.800 I think one of them was this point which I was just again trying 1283 01:41:41.800 --> 01:41:45.159 to say, well, look, you know, it's fine to say these 1284 01:41:45.279 --> 01:41:48.079 things, but when we actually dig into what is meant by those things, 1285 01:41:48.159 --> 01:41:53.319 it turns out to really just be a restatement of the original proposition, which 1286 01:41:53.680 --> 01:41:57.319 would just be a circle basically. So and by the way, I'm not 1287 01:41:57.439 --> 01:41:59.920 being unfair because I would say, for example, in a lot of Romanca 1288 01:42:00.199 --> 01:42:02.039 debates I've had, Roman cathoicis say something like, well, look, the 1289 01:42:02.119 --> 01:42:06.399 only way to know the Bible is through the office of the papacy. Otherwise 1290 01:42:06.479 --> 01:42:11.159 we wouldn't know what books are supposed to be in that collection. And they'll 1291 01:42:11.199 --> 01:42:15.399 just sort of default to again those Augustinian Damasian Pope Damasist synods, and so 1292 01:42:15.560 --> 01:42:18.399 we'll see, this is how we know. But then at the same time 1293 01:42:18.479 --> 01:42:21.560 it's they'll say, well, the reason we know the papacy is true is 1294 01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:27.159 because of Matthew sixteen. So Matthew sixteen is confirmed by the papacy. But 1295 01:42:27.239 --> 01:42:30.800 the papacy is known because it's confirmed by Matthew sixteen. And that's a circle. 1296 01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:33.279 And if a person does want to make a circular argument, then okay, 1297 01:42:33.359 --> 01:42:38.319 that would be consistent with a certain type of epistemology. But ninety nine 1298 01:42:38.319 --> 01:42:42.520 point nine percent of Protestants in Roman Catholics want to have a type of an 1299 01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:45.840 evidentialist, you know, foundationalist epistemology approach, and so that's going to be 1300 01:42:45.920 --> 01:42:49.279 difficult, I would say for them to tease out. But yeah, and 1301 01:42:49.319 --> 01:42:54.239 then Padro had another argument about divine artifact, which was that if God from 1302 01:42:54.279 --> 01:42:59.600 all eternity knew the canon, then the canon six six books, the Protestant 1303 01:42:59.600 --> 01:43:02.319 Canon was predetermined the divine mind or something like that, which is it just 1304 01:43:02.439 --> 01:43:05.880 ignores the historical reality. So the fact that, yeah, but it didn't 1305 01:43:05.920 --> 01:43:10.720 just drop into our lap like the book and his transmission and his history has 1306 01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:15.279 a has a formative process in these centuries of the Church. And again, 1307 01:43:15.640 --> 01:43:17.159 you know, I would argue that if we want to have a lowest common 1308 01:43:17.199 --> 01:43:21.600 dominator of Christianity, then it's going to be the same doctrines and dogmas that 1309 01:43:21.880 --> 01:43:29.239 we're required in these centuries. And when we go to those centuries and we 1310 01:43:29.319 --> 01:43:33.760 find the Niceno Constpolitan Creed as the basis for what you would have to believe 1311 01:43:33.920 --> 01:43:38.359 and would be catechized in, and we can go and read for examples, 1312 01:43:38.399 --> 01:43:43.520 Saint Ceril Jerusalem when he when he does catechises the catechetical lectures very famous a 1313 01:43:43.800 --> 01:43:47.000 Patristic corpus. It's model on the Creed. So he just exposits in a 1314 01:43:47.079 --> 01:43:50.760 catechetical way, the teachings of the Creed, and this is the this is 1315 01:43:50.800 --> 01:43:55.159 the Bishop of Jerusalem, this is and this is consistent with what the other 1316 01:43:55.279 --> 01:44:00.600 bishoprics and Christendom are teaching. So they're expositing and teaching these things the way 1317 01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:03.920 that we as Orthodox expositive teaches them teach them. So this idea that you 1318 01:44:03.960 --> 01:44:10.119 can give verbal credence to these centuries and then when we actually dig into it 1319 01:44:10.239 --> 01:44:15.119 we find out that it's it's not really credis because most Protestants, most Evangelicals, 1320 01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:18.119 would not have anything to do with the actual church where Athanasius was at 1321 01:44:18.840 --> 01:44:23.239 right, they would they would be running him out or he would be running 1322 01:44:23.239 --> 01:44:26.479 them out right. So that's the reality of the situation, and in fact, 1323 01:44:26.600 --> 01:44:30.399 a lot of protestantsm actually matches up to a conglomeration of many early Church 1324 01:44:30.479 --> 01:44:34.199 heresies. There's elements of Marcianism, elements of Nacissism, elements of Massallianism, 1325 01:44:34.640 --> 01:44:39.520 Montonism, and depending on what Protestant we're talking about, we actually have precedent 1326 01:44:39.680 --> 01:44:42.880 in a lot of these heterodox groups. Even in Arenais's date, when are 1327 01:44:42.880 --> 01:44:48.239 an As one eighty writes about you know what doctrines are necessary to join the 1328 01:44:48.359 --> 01:44:51.560 church. Right as a bishop, if you're going to join my church, 1329 01:44:53.760 --> 01:44:57.560 you're going to believe in the tradition. He says in book three of Against 1330 01:44:57.600 --> 01:45:01.239 Heresies that aligns with the apostle succession. And he says one of those great 1331 01:45:01.319 --> 01:45:05.800 churches is the Church of Rome, which because of Peter and Paul, has 1332 01:45:05.880 --> 01:45:10.279 a lot of honor, and he says we ought to look to them as 1333 01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:13.640 an example of a church that we should want to be in communion with and 1334 01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:16.880 that we should base our apostolic succession principles on. Right, the way that 1335 01:45:17.039 --> 01:45:21.880 Rome does absolute succession is a model for how the true churches are recognized through 1336 01:45:21.960 --> 01:45:27.439 apostolic succession and the tradition that they confess. So these appeals are to tradition 1337 01:45:27.439 --> 01:45:33.159 absolute succession in one eighty again for the orthodox normative church of that time. 1338 01:45:33.600 --> 01:45:40.560 So that the point is just that if Protestantism is not a historical reality, 1339 01:45:41.119 --> 01:45:45.880 then there's at some point a division, divorcing, a loss of what the 1340 01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:48.560 and it really doesn't matter what flavor Protestant it is, you're ultimately going to 1341 01:45:48.600 --> 01:45:54.399 have to come back to some kind of blackout view. Right. So the 1342 01:45:54.479 --> 01:45:59.800 apostles lay down the positive faith and then depending upon which Protestant we're talking to, 1343 01:46:00.119 --> 01:46:02.359 right, it's well it was all black out, or well they had 1344 01:46:02.359 --> 01:46:05.000 a lot of good with a lot of bad. And it's sort of like, 1345 01:46:05.079 --> 01:46:12.039 well, why are people who are basically heretical the ones that aren't preserving 1346 01:46:12.079 --> 01:46:15.720 and determine the candid scripture? Right? It seems to not really make sense 1347 01:46:15.840 --> 01:46:17.840 given the fact that you might argue that in the Old Testament. Okay, 1348 01:46:17.880 --> 01:46:23.800 so the Jews were often heretical, they fell into heresy, but the Church 1349 01:46:23.960 --> 01:46:27.319 is different from Old Testament Israel. So Protestants like to use Old Testament in 1350 01:46:27.399 --> 01:46:30.039 Israel as a model. But we can't absolute size the peer to the Old 1351 01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:36.319 Testament because the reality has come to replace the type and the foreshadowing. For 1352 01:46:36.439 --> 01:46:42.720 example, what circumcision did was a type. Baptism is the reality. And 1353 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:45.359 when a lot of Protestants, for example, have a take issue with the 1354 01:46:45.479 --> 01:46:50.239 Church fathers and baptismal regeneration, which they universally teach, the argument will be, 1355 01:46:50.359 --> 01:46:54.520 well, let's go back to the mode of operation of the Holy Spirit 1356 01:46:54.600 --> 01:47:00.119 during the Old Testament, because circumcision didn't affect spiritually what it signifies their or 1357 01:47:00.199 --> 01:47:04.079 baptism shouldn't. But this is to take the Old Testament modus operandi and absolute 1358 01:47:04.199 --> 01:47:10.720 tize that as if there's not a distinction between the Old Testament New Testament precisely 1359 01:47:10.800 --> 01:47:13.479 on sacraments and the Holy Spirit, and there is, because Christ said, 1360 01:47:13.840 --> 01:47:17.079 with Pentecost right, it's a whole new thing. Right. Pentecost is a 1361 01:47:17.239 --> 01:47:25.119 huge fulfillment the Old Testament feast of Pentecost in weeks. So it's the reality 1362 01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:27.399 of which those things were. The types, So we can't go back to 1363 01:47:27.479 --> 01:47:31.640 the types. But much of Protestantism is predicated all this point on returning to 1364 01:47:31.840 --> 01:47:36.319 typological and shadow realities. I gotcha, I got youa So let me ask 1365 01:47:36.359 --> 01:47:40.760 you this real quick and then we can just having other discussion around the way. 1366 01:47:40.840 --> 01:47:44.520 Is why baptism and the real presence are so important, Bachelor regeneration and 1367 01:47:44.600 --> 01:47:47.239 the real presence right on, right on. I appreciate that. So let 1368 01:47:47.319 --> 01:47:49.600 me ask you this and forgive me. I just want to make sure that 1369 01:47:49.760 --> 01:47:55.239 I've got this down and our audiences got this down as well. So if 1370 01:47:55.359 --> 01:48:00.720 you were to answer the questions that you asked Dale specifically about understand and knowing 1371 01:48:00.960 --> 01:48:04.000 what exactly. The canon is how would you and you can be brief if 1372 01:48:04.039 --> 01:48:11.680 you want to, how would you argue non without begging the question? How? 1373 01:48:11.960 --> 01:48:14.880 What would your answer look like? Like I said, without begging the 1374 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:18.520 question. Yeah, we have to go to the historical testimony and witness of 1375 01:48:18.840 --> 01:48:23.800 the church fought so obviously the internal evidence of scripture that it doesn't tell us 1376 01:48:23.920 --> 01:48:28.880 what books make up the Book of the Bible. There are cross textual references, 1377 01:48:28.920 --> 01:48:33.079 sure, between different authors citing other authors and different authors citing certain Old 1378 01:48:33.119 --> 01:48:39.479 Testament books. But if that is, if pure citation is somehow cannons city, 1379 01:48:39.520 --> 01:48:44.880 then well now we've got the Book of Na being cited Sogan philosophers, 1380 01:48:45.000 --> 01:48:53.359 right sure, And we also have well again, we don't. We don't 1381 01:48:53.399 --> 01:48:56.479 have throughout the Roman Empire and the seas of the early Church, we don't 1382 01:48:56.560 --> 01:49:00.720 have a consistent canon. We have varying canonsrying links. But we do have 1383 01:49:01.359 --> 01:49:06.720 a body of oral teaching that accompanies the interpretive those texts, because texts don't 1384 01:49:06.760 --> 01:49:11.119 just stand on their own. This is another thing that I think Protestantism rests 1385 01:49:11.159 --> 01:49:16.920 on. This enlightenment and post printing press notion or something that's weird idea that 1386 01:49:17.439 --> 01:49:19.920 the text just means what it says, and it says what it means. 1387 01:49:20.640 --> 01:49:26.560 But text don't operate that way. Text require an interpretive matrix, a schema, 1388 01:49:28.000 --> 01:49:30.800 a web of beliefs that we have about that text, and each text 1389 01:49:30.920 --> 01:49:35.439 is situated within the rest of the text, and they don't really make sense 1390 01:49:35.560 --> 01:49:42.840 without the holistic context. And I think most Protestants believe in canonical interpretation and 1391 01:49:42.920 --> 01:49:45.600 holistic exodus. Iss sure, but even the Bible itself, I'm saying it 1392 01:49:45.680 --> 01:49:49.520 doesn't make sense without the milieu and the context of the church. You see, 1393 01:49:50.119 --> 01:49:54.279 because the Church is the pillar and brown of truth. Timothy said, 1394 01:49:54.479 --> 01:49:57.640 it says to Timothy, Paul says to Timothy, not the other way around, 1395 01:49:57.920 --> 01:50:00.840 right, Paul says to the Thessalonians continue to keep the traditions, whether 1396 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:04.800 oral or written, And again, those are just really I think points bolstering 1397 01:50:04.880 --> 01:50:09.920 what we're saying, which is that the Bible is situated within a context, 1398 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:13.640 the milieu of the life of the church, the liturgical life of the church. 1399 01:50:13.800 --> 01:50:17.800 It's meant to be heard and exposited by an authority figure in a structure, 1400 01:50:18.239 --> 01:50:21.840 and you can't have that divorce from the actual history of the church. 1401 01:50:21.960 --> 01:50:26.520 So the way that I get around a circular argument would be that, well, 1402 01:50:26.600 --> 01:50:30.640 just simply that the history of the church, we can go into these 1403 01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:38.000 guys up here, demonstrates that there's no clear canon. It varies amongst many 1404 01:50:38.079 --> 01:50:44.239 centuries. Tradition is seen by these guardians of the text as necessary for the 1405 01:50:44.359 --> 01:50:49.199 text. That's who makes this final authoritative decision for us as orthodox. So 1406 01:50:49.560 --> 01:50:55.560 that to me is consistent as a system. Okay, right on, Bot, 1407 01:50:55.680 --> 01:50:57.760 is there anything that you would like to add to what jaj said? 1408 01:50:57.800 --> 01:51:00.560 And then I want to get danes opinion on some of the stuff, because 1409 01:51:00.600 --> 01:51:03.800 you've been very quiet, bro, and I'm getting worried about you over there. 1410 01:51:03.920 --> 01:51:09.159 So I'm listening, man, Yeah, I know right when when they're 1411 01:51:09.199 --> 01:51:12.000 smarter people in the room just sit back and listen, right, be a 1412 01:51:12.039 --> 01:51:15.960 sponge, Right, That's what I'm doing. Go ahead, bo, No, 1413 01:51:16.119 --> 01:51:19.079 No, I don't have anything I think to add for now. Okay, 1414 01:51:19.319 --> 01:51:26.159 all right, Dane so um Dale said something that I would like to 1415 01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:33.000 hear Jay or doctor Branson's opinion on talking about how in the scriptures um and 1416 01:51:33.079 --> 01:51:38.199 from a solo script or a perspective, you can get this list of primary 1417 01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:44.760 doctrines and I'm you know, I'm skeptical that that's true. Um. I 1418 01:51:44.840 --> 01:51:50.039 think, first of all, people give different definitions of what is primary, 1419 01:51:50.279 --> 01:51:54.439 you know, um. But second of all, the scriptures don't necessarily give 1420 01:51:54.479 --> 01:51:58.520 a list. Um, this is primary, this is secondary. This. 1421 01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:02.880 You have to believe this, you can have liberty of opinion. So what 1422 01:52:03.079 --> 01:52:10.640 is y'all's response when you hear a Protestant say solo scripture can provide all the 1423 01:52:10.760 --> 01:52:15.039 primary doctrine doctrines. I'm just curious. I mean, I know you would 1424 01:52:15.039 --> 01:52:18.479 disagree, but no one I would say that the Protestant position is easily self 1425 01:52:18.600 --> 01:52:24.279 refuting on that point, because if solo scripture is a primary doctrine, solo 1426 01:52:24.319 --> 01:52:28.960 scriptura can't provide the Canada Scripture necessary for solo scriptura. So that's one primary 1427 01:52:29.000 --> 01:52:33.720 doctrine that it can't provide. Certainly, the New Testament teaches the doctrine of 1428 01:52:33.720 --> 01:52:39.600 the Trinity as it reads the Old Testament. But whether or not this is 1429 01:52:40.079 --> 01:52:45.760 completely clearly evident just from the exposition of the Scripture, I think it's there's 1430 01:52:45.800 --> 01:52:49.560 a there's a development in the sense of explication of the doctrine of the Trinity 1431 01:52:49.920 --> 01:52:55.880 and the other Christological doctrines which are implicit in the scriptures, but the way 1432 01:52:56.000 --> 01:53:00.039 that the Church exposes them, utilizing a lot of philosophical concepts and things that 1433 01:53:00.119 --> 01:53:06.159 are extracononical, various insights from Platonic, Neoplatonic, Ristintilian philosophy later on. 1434 01:53:06.600 --> 01:53:10.880 I mean, those things are very helpful and they kind of become part of 1435 01:53:11.039 --> 01:53:15.039 the expression of the church, the mindset of the church. But none of 1436 01:53:15.119 --> 01:53:17.039 those things are contained in the scriptures. And so to me it's just kind 1437 01:53:17.079 --> 01:53:21.479 of I mean explicitly right, like I don't know, something like the Fifth 1438 01:53:21.560 --> 01:53:27.479 Council's doctrine of inn hypostatized, the idea we could say is in scripture, 1439 01:53:27.520 --> 01:53:32.960 but that express that specific terminology and the expression that it's encapsulating that we see 1440 01:53:33.119 --> 01:53:38.399 in the Leontii, that's not in scripture. So, you know, there's 1441 01:53:38.439 --> 01:53:42.800 so many things like this that I think when we put it in context historically, 1442 01:53:42.840 --> 01:53:46.000 it makes it makes so much more sense that it's not really these texts. 1443 01:53:46.159 --> 01:53:51.800 It's a group of people. The community is the body of Christ expression 1444 01:53:51.880 --> 01:53:57.600 the word, right, the living word, we're the living word. Doesn't 1445 01:53:57.600 --> 01:54:00.479 mean that the texts aren't important or they're not. In an other sense, 1446 01:54:00.560 --> 01:54:06.239 the word, but Jesus is calling us to more than just abstract propositional knowledge 1447 01:54:06.399 --> 01:54:15.079 post Enlightenment Reformation, but actual participation, and the Protestant devaluing of sacramentology I 1448 01:54:15.199 --> 01:54:20.000 think contributes to that idea that the highest faculty in man is propositional knowledge and 1449 01:54:20.079 --> 01:54:25.960 this kind of stuff, and that's all just really a movement away from a 1450 01:54:26.159 --> 01:54:33.880 visible social living community. Cool. Thanks, Yeah, doctor Branson, is 1451 01:54:33.920 --> 01:54:40.560 there anything you want to add on that? Could you kind of rephrase the 1452 01:54:40.640 --> 01:54:45.600 question for me? So, yeah, I'm just curious your response to Protestants 1453 01:54:45.640 --> 01:54:51.279 who claim that scripture alone can give can give us the primary doctrines, the 1454 01:54:51.359 --> 01:54:58.079 things that must be believed for a person to be saved. The main thing 1455 01:54:58.159 --> 01:55:01.640 I think when I think of a question like that, I mean, you 1456 01:55:01.720 --> 01:55:10.199 know, so of course it could, and I apologize, but it just 1457 01:55:10.279 --> 01:55:15.439 seems like such a crazy idea to me to think that that actually is is 1458 01:55:15.560 --> 01:55:17.720 true, that like that's how the Bible is written. It's always I mean 1459 01:55:17.760 --> 01:55:20.720 really, even when I was a Protestant. I remember when I was a 1460 01:55:20.840 --> 01:55:25.680 Baptist, like as a kid, sometimes people would I don't know if they 1461 01:55:25.720 --> 01:55:28.239 were joking or if they were serious, but you know, they'd be like 1462 01:55:28.439 --> 01:55:30.640 that, they'd refer to the Bible. They'd be like, this is like 1463 01:55:30.760 --> 01:55:33.880 the instruction manual for your life. And I always, I mean, even 1464 01:55:34.079 --> 01:55:38.199 as like a you know, teenager, I was like, this is a 1465 01:55:38.279 --> 01:55:43.119 really poorly written construction. You know, like like there, it's not arranged 1466 01:55:43.199 --> 01:55:46.760 by topic, there's no index, like it's all like they're just like that's 1467 01:55:46.840 --> 01:55:51.439 just not at all how it's written. Um. It just just always struck 1468 01:55:51.520 --> 01:55:57.039 me as a really crazy idea to think that the Bible is supposed to be 1469 01:55:59.199 --> 01:56:01.279 like this. You know, people talk about the clarity of scripture, and 1470 01:56:01.359 --> 01:56:09.520 it just seems I just I can't. I can't figure out why anyone would 1471 01:56:09.680 --> 01:56:14.600 think that unless they just had to, like unless they were forced into it 1472 01:56:14.760 --> 01:56:20.279 by you know, sort of the system that requires it, because I mean 1473 01:56:20.319 --> 01:56:23.720 I just didn't. I just like, why would you like why would you 1474 01:56:23.880 --> 01:56:28.800 read lamentations or something and think, oh, this is so it's like the 1475 01:56:29.439 --> 01:56:32.680 Zuma theology I over, you know, just so laid down in such a 1476 01:56:33.199 --> 01:56:36.479 clear system and it's obviously not. I mean, you know, I don't 1477 01:56:36.479 --> 01:56:41.439 know, like could you, I guess in theory, like could you go 1478 01:56:41.560 --> 01:56:45.520 through the Bible and figure out what are the primary things or something. I 1479 01:56:45.600 --> 01:56:48.359 mean, I guess, but I mean it's certainly not like I mean, 1480 01:56:48.359 --> 01:56:51.399 it's obviously not written that way. It just it's always just struck me as 1481 01:56:51.399 --> 01:56:57.479 a really weird thing to think. And I don't know what evidence it's based 1482 01:56:57.560 --> 01:57:00.239 on, Like why Yeah, So this has been this has been a real 1483 01:57:01.840 --> 01:57:06.000 tipping point for me because as as we were talking before the show, doctor 1484 01:57:06.039 --> 01:57:11.760 Branson um that I'm I'm a pastor in the Methodist Church, and so I 1485 01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:16.039 am, you know, Protestant, but I've been really struggling with with upholding 1486 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:20.840 soul of scriptura for a while now because this idea that it can provide a 1487 01:57:20.920 --> 01:57:27.439 list of primary doctrines and then usually the definition people will give me as well. 1488 01:57:27.439 --> 01:57:30.960 A primary doctrine is that which deals with salvation, how a person is 1489 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:34.119 saved. But Protestants we don't even agree on that, right, So some 1490 01:57:34.359 --> 01:57:41.000 Protestants would affirm baptismal regeneration and infant baptism while others would not. And um, 1491 01:57:41.359 --> 01:57:45.920 you know, I'm more on the side of baptismal regeneration and big proponent 1492 01:57:45.000 --> 01:57:48.760 of infant baptism, but uh, you know, a Baptist would disagree with 1493 01:57:48.840 --> 01:57:51.840 me on that, and I'm like, well, at this point, we're 1494 01:57:51.880 --> 01:57:57.239 two Protestants that disagree on a primary doctrine because this is how a man or 1495 01:57:57.239 --> 01:58:00.960 a woman is saved. Like, so I've been uh, you know, 1496 01:58:00.479 --> 01:58:06.680 I'm I'm as uh, I'm definitely still a you know, believing in the 1497 01:58:06.920 --> 01:58:12.680 infallibility of scripture and the inspiration of scripture and the divine authority of scripture. 1498 01:58:12.960 --> 01:58:15.600 But soul of scripture is a little too far from me. So yeah, 1499 01:58:15.640 --> 01:58:18.399 no, I agree. It's one thing that always struck me when I when 1500 01:58:18.439 --> 01:58:26.039 I was a Protestant is you know, I felt like, I mean, 1501 01:58:26.119 --> 01:58:31.039 either the Bible just is not clear or we're all idiots, um, or 1502 01:58:31.479 --> 01:58:36.239 I have to just anyone who really disagrees with me on something of serious I 1503 01:58:36.439 --> 01:58:45.920 have to just assume that they are evil or be you know, stubbornly resisting 1504 01:58:46.119 --> 01:58:48.960 something that is really clear, you know. But but the reality is, 1505 01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:53.960 it just seems so obvious to me that, um, you know, there 1506 01:58:54.000 --> 01:59:00.520 are sincere people who just did you know, sincerely disagree about about some things 1507 01:59:00.560 --> 01:59:05.359 and I don't. Right on, guys, right on. So here's the 1508 01:59:05.439 --> 01:59:10.119 thing. We are at the two hour mark. I've got one more question 1509 01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:14.239 left, would you all be interested? And if not, that's okay. 1510 01:59:14.680 --> 01:59:16.439 I've got one super chat right now, so I would like to get to 1511 01:59:16.520 --> 01:59:19.920 that. But would you guys be interested in answering audience questions after we wrap 1512 01:59:20.079 --> 01:59:27.199 with this question? Sure? Okay, I'll probably jump off, but yeah, 1513 01:59:27.760 --> 01:59:30.560 I'm in it for your last question for sure. All right, sweet, 1514 01:59:30.640 --> 01:59:32.880 So if you have a question for Jay Bow or the or the panel, 1515 01:59:33.600 --> 01:59:35.920 go ahead and send us that. As Josh said, and the chat 1516 01:59:36.039 --> 01:59:41.319 super chats get answered first, and it would really help supporting our ministry as 1517 01:59:41.319 --> 01:59:44.319 well. So thank you for those. So, Jay, I've heard on 1518 01:59:44.439 --> 01:59:48.039 a few of your videos now that deal with soloscript tour that German theologians and 1519 01:59:48.159 --> 01:59:54.800 scholars after Luther used like higher criticism to dissect the scriptures. Can you give 1520 01:59:54.880 --> 01:59:59.119 us a brief timeline of the key points of this happening from Luther's time till 1521 01:59:59.199 --> 02:00:04.439 today and does the logical outcome of this process result in something akin to what 1522 02:00:04.680 --> 02:00:11.880 Marcion did in the early second century. Well, certainly Luther himself believed that 1523 02:00:12.520 --> 02:00:16.800 the text of Scripture, at least at different points as he saw them canonically, 1524 02:00:16.800 --> 02:00:20.319 because there seems to be some fluctuations as to what he thinks is the 1525 02:00:20.399 --> 02:00:24.359 cannon over time. And I've read a lot of Luther. I've actually read 1526 02:00:24.439 --> 02:00:27.319 more Lutheran and Luther and Calvin than I have any of the other I haven't 1527 02:00:27.359 --> 02:00:30.600 read a lot of the second generation Lutherans or whatever. But I kind of 1528 02:00:30.640 --> 02:00:32.880 had a face when I was really into Luther. So I got heavy into 1529 02:00:32.960 --> 02:00:38.960 his ideas when I was eighteen or nineteen. And what I see is kind 1530 02:00:39.000 --> 02:00:41.800 of like a lot of rhetorical flare and a lot of sort of doubting at 1531 02:00:41.800 --> 02:00:45.640 different phases of what he thinks the cannon is and what I argue. And 1532 02:00:45.760 --> 02:00:48.880 I argue this point, I think people there are scholars that have made this 1533 02:00:49.000 --> 02:00:54.399 connection. But there's a couple of books of Father John Wyford recommends that go 1534 02:00:54.520 --> 02:00:56.920 into this, which if you go watch our stream that we did, he 1535 02:00:57.560 --> 02:01:00.640 recommends some of those texts. But the idea is that Luther kind of set 1536 02:01:00.720 --> 02:01:04.520 the stage because he was a kind of a translator, textual critic, scholar 1537 02:01:04.560 --> 02:01:08.359 to a degree. I mean he translated you know, the luther Bible, 1538 02:01:08.439 --> 02:01:15.119 but um the New the New German New Testament. But the problem, I 1539 02:01:15.199 --> 02:01:20.199 think is that the principle that he lays down of doubting the canonical rule, 1540 02:01:20.399 --> 02:01:25.479 which had been pretty well established in the West for a long time, you 1541 02:01:25.520 --> 02:01:30.479 know, up to his time. That really set the stage for transferring the 1542 02:01:30.159 --> 02:01:35.800 preserve preserve preservation of the scriptures from the church or some ecclesial entity. Now 1543 02:01:35.880 --> 02:01:40.800 it becomes the purview of the university. And we see this directly going on 1544 02:01:41.079 --> 02:01:45.239 with Tubidgin and the different German universities that now take it upon themselves to kind 1545 02:01:45.279 --> 02:01:50.560 of be the locus of the authority for scripture, and the whole Protestantism ends 1546 02:01:50.640 --> 02:01:54.840 up going in this direction over time. It may not, it's not overnight. 1547 02:01:55.279 --> 02:01:59.199 So I don't know the exact you know, like critical scholars like a 1548 02:01:59.279 --> 02:02:02.720 generation through luther because I've never really followed the Lutheran tradition that much, but 1549 02:02:02.800 --> 02:02:05.079 I can tell you that, you know, I don't think it's accidental to 1550 02:02:05.199 --> 02:02:10.319 Julius Velhausen, who is the father the documentary hypothesis. He's coming out of 1551 02:02:10.359 --> 02:02:14.920 these schools and so he's kind of the first to say I'm going to go 1552 02:02:15.000 --> 02:02:20.640 on a rampaging quest against anything that has to do with ceremony. So he 1553 02:02:20.880 --> 02:02:25.880 just sort of wants to purge the Bible of anything ceremonial, and this leads 1554 02:02:25.920 --> 02:02:30.840 to the theory of their being different JEPD the Jahwis School, the Elois School, 1555 02:02:31.119 --> 02:02:34.960 Precy School, Deuteronomous school. And so now that the Old Testament is 1556 02:02:35.079 --> 02:02:39.720 first on the chopping block to get sort of divided up into this, which 1557 02:02:39.800 --> 02:02:44.079 is ultimately a denial of the continuity and coherence of the text. But remember 1558 02:02:44.159 --> 02:02:47.159 Jesus said, if we accept the Gospel John, the Scripture cannot be broken. 1559 02:02:47.279 --> 02:02:50.960 So this is really a strong breaking of the Scripture because now we're sort 1560 02:02:51.000 --> 02:02:58.000 of dividing it up into an incoherent jumbling of different competing schools based on the 1561 02:02:58.199 --> 02:03:01.119 terms that are used, the names of God that are used in different sections. 1562 02:03:01.520 --> 02:03:09.520 So for example, I'm reading right now a rabbinical book on the Theophanes 1563 02:03:09.560 --> 02:03:13.279 and the manifestations of God in the Old Testament to in preparation for the debate 1564 02:03:13.359 --> 02:03:16.159 that I'm going to do with Daniel Hikikichu, the Muslim guy. And the 1565 02:03:16.279 --> 02:03:21.000 rabbinical texts are interesting because there's a lot of debate and fluid. There's fluidity 1566 02:03:21.079 --> 02:03:25.279 as the point here. It's like there's not this strict unitarian view, but 1567 02:03:25.399 --> 02:03:30.000 a lot of The debate of fluidity centers around the assumption that will Deuteronomy doesn't 1568 02:03:30.000 --> 02:03:36.640 have Theophanes, so it's a deuteronomous text. The priestly texts allowed for Theophanes 1569 02:03:36.680 --> 02:03:42.399 because they wanted people to come to where God was embodied in the Theophanic presence. 1570 02:03:42.560 --> 02:03:45.560 Right. So, but this is all based on presuppositions, right, 1571 02:03:45.800 --> 02:03:54.560 So the presuppositions of unbelief. Typically in critical schools will treat the texts as 1572 02:03:54.600 --> 02:03:57.560 if there are any other text. So the idea is that will I have 1573 02:03:57.640 --> 02:04:00.399 to treat the Bible like any other text, and I'm subjected to the same 1574 02:04:00.520 --> 02:04:06.119 quote scientific evidentialist criticisms of any other religious texts or any or other literary text. 1575 02:04:06.520 --> 02:04:11.600 It's kind of the rule in the higher textual world. But again, 1576 02:04:11.920 --> 02:04:15.319 that really just assumes the Bible isn't what it claims to be, right, 1577 02:04:15.439 --> 02:04:16.840 because if the Bible is what it claims to be, then it's not going 1578 02:04:16.920 --> 02:04:20.840 to be subject to this typical, you know, kind of unbelief approach. 1579 02:04:20.960 --> 02:04:27.079 But I mean, can you can definitely trace Luther's questioning I think of the 1580 02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:32.800 canon and the rise of Protestant textual criticism from their straight to Julius Belhausen and 1581 02:04:32.880 --> 02:04:40.000 all of the documentary hypothesis, which ultimately leads to the complete dissolution in the 1582 02:04:40.119 --> 02:04:44.079 academic world of the Old Testament. Then we get the Jesus quest doing the 1583 02:04:44.119 --> 02:04:47.680 exact same thing with the New Testament. So I'm not saying Luther himself didn't 1584 02:04:47.760 --> 02:04:53.880 believe the text, right, but he allows for the possibility. He's he 1585 02:04:53.960 --> 02:05:00.079 sets the precedent for the academic world being the new authoritative exp positor, whereas 1586 02:05:00.159 --> 02:05:04.439 prior to that it was the ecclesial world. And clearly Jesus didn't set up 1587 02:05:04.520 --> 02:05:11.159 an academic debate squad. He set up a church right right on. Thank 1588 02:05:11.199 --> 02:05:14.119 you for that. I appreciate that so much. Uh, doctor Branson, 1589 02:05:14.239 --> 02:05:17.279 anything that you would like to add, give me the question again that you 1590 02:05:17.319 --> 02:05:24.399 were Yeah, basically the role of higher criticism and how it affects the church 1591 02:05:24.479 --> 02:05:30.159 in Luther's time, and then the logical conclusions of his ideas today. I 1592 02:05:30.239 --> 02:05:34.960 wouldn't have much to say about that except I hate Hegel. That's it. 1593 02:05:35.039 --> 02:05:40.880 We'll get a T shirt made a little line. Yeah, there you go, 1594 02:05:41.199 --> 02:05:44.600 there you go, Uh, Dale or David and Dane, since you've 1595 02:05:44.600 --> 02:05:46.600 got to leave here in a minute. Is there anything that you want to 1596 02:05:46.600 --> 02:05:53.079 add to to what you just said. No, I am good, just 1597 02:05:53.239 --> 02:05:58.800 don't like higher criticism. Yeah, Moses wrote the torah Um Paul wrote all 1598 02:05:58.800 --> 02:06:03.680 the epistles attributed to I mean, the fact that that's even um been circulated 1599 02:06:03.760 --> 02:06:13.720 in Christian circles is kind of shameful in all honesty. So how that. 1600 02:06:14.039 --> 02:06:17.600 Just look up Julius Wellhaus and he's he was very open about what he wanted 1601 02:06:17.640 --> 02:06:21.039 to get rid of. You know, he had this assumption that true religion 1602 02:06:21.199 --> 02:06:26.520 can't have ritual and ceremony, so all that stuff had to be purged and 1603 02:06:26.600 --> 02:06:30.520 then then we would get to the true sort of core uh, scale down 1604 02:06:30.600 --> 02:06:36.199 religion. M hm, David, I'm on the flips that I can't imagine 1605 02:06:36.239 --> 02:06:42.840 any religion without ritual and ceremony. So but yeah, guys, this has 1606 02:06:42.840 --> 02:06:46.840 been enjoyable. UM appreciate uh, Doctor Branson and Jay y'all's time. Um, 1607 02:06:47.680 --> 02:06:51.159 the other three I see all the time, so um, I'll see 1608 02:06:51.199 --> 02:06:55.560 you soon again. Um, but this has been great. I got to 1609 02:06:55.600 --> 02:07:00.600 hop off and go help get some kids to sleep, So join this thing. 1610 02:07:00.079 --> 02:07:05.239 God bless all, y'all, God bless But thanks all right, David 1611 02:07:05.520 --> 02:07:10.960 Dale, anything any questions, comments, concerns. You guys are both good. 1612 02:07:11.319 --> 02:07:15.960 Oh so this isn't the closing No, I mean yeah, I've got 1613 02:07:16.000 --> 02:07:19.640 my last question out. Jay just answered it. So if you've got any 1614 02:07:19.760 --> 02:07:23.479 follow up or if you want to ask a question or whatever, No, 1615 02:07:24.119 --> 02:07:27.760 just I don't have any further questions at this time. But just for the 1616 02:07:27.800 --> 02:07:32.119 closing, I just wanted to kind of reiterate uninterrupted what my argument was again, 1617 02:07:32.279 --> 02:07:36.279 just for the audience to get it out properly type things. So I'll 1618 02:07:36.319 --> 02:07:41.359 do that at the closing though. Okay, all right, let's jump then 1619 02:07:41.479 --> 02:07:45.159 to the audience questions. And again before I jump into these, I just 1620 02:07:45.239 --> 02:07:49.920 want to say again thank you for Jay and Bow for coming on. This 1621 02:07:50.079 --> 02:07:54.640 has been super enlightening for me, and I know I'm going to be on 1622 02:07:54.720 --> 02:07:57.600 this video for a little bit now. So if you like the content, 1623 02:07:57.720 --> 02:08:01.479 if you like what Jay said, what Bo said, and the little pushback 1624 02:08:01.560 --> 02:08:05.119 that we got from Dell and Jay, that was fine. So I appreciate 1625 02:08:05.199 --> 02:08:09.079 that guy's cordial and heated and so I like it. But uh, but 1626 02:08:09.479 --> 02:08:13.159 like like this video, think about subscribing to the channel as well. If 1627 02:08:13.199 --> 02:08:18.920 you can't financially support us, obviously, subscribers help us in multiple, multiple 1628 02:08:18.960 --> 02:08:22.159 ways, and if y'all would please pray for us, I think that's one 1629 02:08:22.199 --> 02:08:28.279 of the best ways to support anyone is by offering prayers up to God for 1630 02:08:28.520 --> 02:08:31.720 that person, and so that would be a really great way to help us 1631 02:08:31.760 --> 02:08:35.199 out as well. But the first super chat we have here is from Orthodoxology. 1632 02:08:35.239 --> 02:08:37.840 I'll post it on the screen and read it out. Have you guys 1633 02:08:37.960 --> 02:08:45.479 ever encountered the first Principles of Scripture argument made by Clement of Alexandria that Anthony 1634 02:08:45.640 --> 02:08:52.079 Rodgers and the likes make And what are your thoughts on that? I'm not 1635 02:08:52.199 --> 02:08:56.039 familiar with this argument now, I'm not either, to be honest, doctor 1636 02:08:56.119 --> 02:09:03.279 Branson. Yeah, okay, so Orthodoxology. If there's another way you want 1637 02:09:03.319 --> 02:09:05.600 to phrase it or kind of elaborate on a little bit, Uh, send 1638 02:09:05.680 --> 02:09:11.680 me a comment and I'll post that up as well. Let's see here our 1639 02:09:11.720 --> 02:09:20.960 other super chat is from Jamie Church. Can't change the Law second Thessalonians. 1640 02:09:22.039 --> 02:09:31.319 Two thoughts, Uh, that's the in that the section about the apostasy and 1641 02:09:31.880 --> 02:09:35.720 you know the man of sin correct? Yeah, I guess the argument is 1642 02:09:35.880 --> 02:09:41.800 that anyone that would attempt to quote change law is there for the man of 1643 02:09:41.920 --> 02:09:46.600 sinners. I don't see how that relates to Second Theslanians too, but um, 1644 02:09:48.840 --> 02:09:52.920 yeah, I think if you watched the documentary that my friend Lewis made 1645 02:09:52.960 --> 02:09:58.640 over at Orthodox Shahata it's called Orthodox Worship Continuity with the Old Testament, Temple 1646 02:09:58.720 --> 02:10:03.840 and sin Agogue, you'll you'll see that the Church isn't really quote changing the 1647 02:10:03.960 --> 02:10:07.880 law. Now, if Jesus gave the law, which we would say the 1648 02:10:07.960 --> 02:10:11.960 New Testament makes it clear that he was there at Mount Sinai. He says 1649 02:10:11.000 --> 02:10:15.119 this to the Pharisees, you know in John five and John eight and nine, 1650 02:10:15.159 --> 02:10:16.840 that he was there with Moses, he was there with Abraham. So 1651 02:10:18.039 --> 02:10:20.399 Jesus is the one that gave the law at Mount Sinai. And if certain 1652 02:10:20.640 --> 02:10:28.000 ceremonial or dietary things referred in their practice, in their celebration by the Jews 1653 02:10:28.079 --> 02:10:33.640 to him, and he fulfilled those things, then they can still be kept 1654 02:10:33.840 --> 02:10:39.520 in a unique spiritual way. So for example, for us, you know, 1655 02:10:39.600 --> 02:10:41.479 if you look at Paul's epistles and to the Corinthians, he says that 1656 02:10:41.680 --> 02:10:46.880 not to put to seeds in a field. He says, that's a spiritual 1657 02:10:46.920 --> 02:10:50.079 principle that we still keep by not being united with unbelievers. So even the 1658 02:10:50.159 --> 02:10:56.960 ceremonial commands are not necessarily quote done away. They might be fulfilled in a 1659 02:10:56.079 --> 02:11:00.960 certain way that they were cut by Israel, but then spiritually kept by us 1660 02:11:01.119 --> 02:11:05.600 as the Church. And then some of those ceremonial commands are also still kept 1661 02:11:05.640 --> 02:11:09.399 by the Church. We still have holy places, we still have holy water, 1662 02:11:09.520 --> 02:11:11.399 we still have an altar, we still have an incense and a temple, 1663 02:11:11.439 --> 02:11:15.479 and a lot of those things that were in the Old Testament we still 1664 02:11:15.600 --> 02:11:18.640 have. But I would also add too that for the Jews, it was 1665 02:11:18.720 --> 02:11:22.560 never the Jewish idea that all of the laws were supposed to be kept by 1666 02:11:22.600 --> 02:11:28.600 the John Tiles. Anyway, it's physically aren't possible. So yeah, I 1667 02:11:28.680 --> 02:11:33.479 was gonna say that it's something I've noticed. I think it's one thing that 1668 02:11:33.520 --> 02:11:39.000 attracted me to Orthodoxy. Two was I felt like I didn't really find a 1669 02:11:39.079 --> 02:11:45.960 lot of churches that I thought had a coherent relationship with the Torah. And 1670 02:11:46.079 --> 02:11:52.439 of course, yeah, in Judaism, you know, Jews don't expect gentiles 1671 02:11:52.520 --> 02:11:58.520 to keep the Sabbath, or keep Kosher, or you know, any any 1672 02:11:58.560 --> 02:12:01.760 of these things. There's that in Judaism there's there's the idea of the Noah 1673 02:12:01.840 --> 02:12:09.000 Hide commandments, which for them there's seven um which are so if you if 1674 02:12:09.039 --> 02:12:13.760 you think about that, the idea is sort of sort of like concentric circles. 1675 02:12:13.800 --> 02:12:18.279 Right, So you've got you know, Adam and Eve. Anything that 1676 02:12:18.399 --> 02:12:24.079 God commands them has to be followed by all of their descendants. Anything that 1677 02:12:24.319 --> 02:12:26.800 you know, God commands Noah has to be followed by all of his descendants, 1678 02:12:26.840 --> 02:12:30.159 and and so on. So you get these sort of you know, 1679 02:12:30.279 --> 02:12:33.920 smaller circles as you get down to Abraham and then Moses and the children of 1680 02:12:35.000 --> 02:12:37.800 Israel and then the dividic Covenant, you know, and then you get down 1681 02:12:37.880 --> 02:12:43.399 to Christ. And you could tell that what happens in the in the Book 1682 02:12:43.439 --> 02:12:48.000 of Acts as kind of this question like is the so is this new covenant 1683 02:12:48.079 --> 02:12:54.399 with Jesus like and yet smaller you know, concentric circles. So it's all 1684 02:12:54.479 --> 02:13:00.520 taking place within the Torah. And so Gentiles need to you know, become 1685 02:13:00.640 --> 02:13:05.439 Jewish to be able to get into that covenant or is he taking us all 1686 02:13:05.479 --> 02:13:09.880 the way back up out to you know, Adam and Noah And it's it's 1687 02:13:11.119 --> 02:13:18.600 you know, expanded to everyone and the ruling that that James gives at this 1688 02:13:18.760 --> 02:13:22.560 Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts, where he says, look, 1689 02:13:22.680 --> 02:13:30.600 let's just tell the gentile converts to abstain from blood and things that have been 1690 02:13:30.680 --> 02:13:37.359 strangled, sexual immorality, and not to eat food sacrifice to idols. Those 1691 02:13:37.399 --> 02:13:41.760 are four of the noah Hide commandments. In later rabbinic judaism Um, they 1692 02:13:41.880 --> 02:13:46.079 left out a few that It's not clear if that's kind of an early stage 1693 02:13:46.119 --> 02:13:50.359 of the development of that idea and maybe that rabbies me up with some extra 1694 02:13:50.399 --> 02:13:54.760 stuff later or the ones that he's leaving out are kind of self explanatory too 1695 02:13:54.000 --> 02:13:58.319 for Christians. So but anyway, I mean, you know, the the 1696 02:14:00.479 --> 02:14:03.079 the Torah, you know, even on the Jewish view, I mean, 1697 02:14:03.159 --> 02:14:09.359 it's it's only specifically given to Israel, and it is not expected, um 1698 02:14:09.560 --> 02:14:13.720 for gentiles to follow all of In fact, interestingly, you know in judaism 1699 02:14:15.520 --> 02:14:20.640 Um, you know there's the even the idea that that some of the commandments 1700 02:14:20.680 --> 02:14:26.600 in the Torah um really should not be kept by gentiles. I noticed something 1701 02:14:26.640 --> 02:14:30.119 in the Chat a while back about keeping the Sabbath and the always always kind 1702 02:14:30.119 --> 02:14:33.359 of I mean, I used to kind of think about that sort of issue 1703 02:14:33.399 --> 02:14:37.079 too. But you know, in the Talmud, I mean, it really 1704 02:14:37.239 --> 02:14:41.079 is like a gentile who observes the Sabbath is worthy of the death mentalty. 1705 02:14:41.760 --> 02:14:46.600 I mean, it's a really like it's this hugely insulting thing in the in 1706 02:14:46.720 --> 02:14:50.119 the tour because there's this commandment to to Adam, you know, you'll work 1707 02:14:50.279 --> 02:14:54.399 now, like after the fall, you have to work now and bring bread 1708 02:14:54.479 --> 02:14:58.920 out of the earth by the sweat of your brow. And it's a specific, 1709 02:15:00.079 --> 02:15:05.560 know, a specific gift to Israel to have the Sabbath, and it's 1710 02:15:05.640 --> 02:15:09.479 not meant for gentiles. And so for you know, in the tal Mood, 1711 02:15:09.520 --> 02:15:13.159 it's the ending Mammondes. You know, there's some very harsh words for 1712 02:15:13.800 --> 02:15:18.000 you know, gentiles trying to keep the Sabbath, because it's like that's not 1713 02:15:18.399 --> 02:15:22.359 that's not directed towards you. So there's not a lot of Torah or law 1714 02:15:22.479 --> 02:15:28.079 that is directed to gentiles. Anyway. I'd like to add a point too 1715 02:15:28.079 --> 02:15:31.199 if I can. Yeah, I just remembered. So if you read Hebrews, 1716 02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:35.319 particularly Hebrews seven is a really important chapter in regard to this question because 1717 02:15:35.920 --> 02:15:39.920 Hebrews, obviously the book is about the superiority of the New Covenant to the 1718 02:15:41.039 --> 02:15:45.239 old. And we might be tempted to think on a surface reading maybe that, 1719 02:15:45.359 --> 02:15:48.199 well, Hebrews is really just saying that all the Old Testament stuff is 1720 02:15:48.239 --> 02:15:50.399 fulfilled. You know, when I was a Protestant, I typically read it 1721 02:15:50.520 --> 02:15:54.439 that way, although I detect that this question is kind of coming from probably 1722 02:15:54.439 --> 02:15:58.119 a Messianic judaism or Hebrew's Roots kind of vantage point or something like that. 1723 02:15:58.399 --> 02:16:03.319 But if you read Hebrew seven, it's very interesting because it notes that contra 1724 02:16:05.720 --> 02:16:09.560 sort of Messianic Hebrew Roots type of attitude, there is still there is still 1725 02:16:09.720 --> 02:16:16.840 a priesthood, but it's a new priesthood that is fulfilled the Ironic priesthood. 1726 02:16:16.880 --> 02:16:20.840 So in other words, Priesta didn't go away. The Ironic priesthood was instituted 1727 02:16:20.960 --> 02:16:28.840 as a lesser, newer priesthood from the Melkizedekian priesthood. And Hebrews is making 1728 02:16:28.920 --> 02:16:33.760 the argument of superiority of the mel Kizoedekian priestood unto the Church is the Melkizedekian 1729 02:16:33.799 --> 02:16:37.120 priesthood. And this is very important for us because it's a great it's a 1730 02:16:37.159 --> 02:16:43.360 crucial argument that we have to make against Muslim because Muslims want to retain worship 1731 02:16:43.600 --> 02:16:46.239 from the Torah and the prophets. Yeah, there's no notion of sacrifice, 1732 02:16:46.319 --> 02:16:50.120 no notion of temple, no notion of altar, no notion of priesthood. 1733 02:16:50.159 --> 02:16:54.200 But God has always had a priesthood. And in fact, Hebrew seven is 1734 02:16:54.280 --> 02:17:00.159 arguing that the eternal heavenly priesthood of Melkizedek is the priesthood of Christ. So 1735 02:17:00.319 --> 02:17:03.840 that was typological of Christ. It's superior to the Ironic. The Ironic was 1736 02:17:03.879 --> 02:17:07.200 an image of that. Believe it or not, is what I think Hubrews 1737 02:17:07.319 --> 02:17:11.680 is arguing. So it's saying that in verse twelve the priesthood being changed, 1738 02:17:13.239 --> 02:17:16.920 therefore there is a change of the law. So in fact, you're correct. 1739 02:17:16.040 --> 02:17:20.760 The Church can't change the law, but the god Man can change the 1740 02:17:20.840 --> 02:17:26.440 law. Right right on. I love it. I love you guys. 1741 02:17:26.040 --> 02:17:31.920 So the next super chat we had is from Diana des Let's see. She 1742 02:17:31.040 --> 02:17:35.319 said, thank you for having Jay on. I know, we just go 1743 02:17:35.559 --> 02:17:43.360 on. Let's see her Solomon, Jay's ultimate appill is same as yours, 1744 02:17:43.479 --> 02:17:48.239 deal Holy Spirit. So I made a distinction between normativity in the notion of 1745 02:17:48.319 --> 02:17:54.159 public authority in a separate question of the individual's subjective assurance, which comes to 1746 02:17:54.200 --> 02:17:58.280 the Holy Spirit. So I made a distinction actually between these two different things 1747 02:17:58.319 --> 02:18:01.680 which were often conflated. For example, you'll hear Roman Catholics do this a 1748 02:18:01.719 --> 02:18:05.319 lot where they say, well, the only way for you, as an 1749 02:18:05.319 --> 02:18:09.920 individual have certainty is the pope. But does the pope really do that? 1750 02:18:09.040 --> 02:18:15.040 Does he actually function to give individual certitude? And that question In that sort 1751 02:18:15.040 --> 02:18:18.360 of bada and switch that the Roman Catholic apologists are doing there, it's kind 1752 02:18:18.399 --> 02:18:24.440 of trading on an ambiguity of category confusion. So normativity and public authority is 1753 02:18:24.479 --> 02:18:30.319 not the same thing as personal subjective assurance. Those are two different things. 1754 02:18:30.559 --> 02:18:33.600 They relate to one another, but they're two different things. So my ultimate 1755 02:18:33.760 --> 02:18:39.360 the fact that my ultimate appeal is the same, really doesn't say much because 1756 02:18:39.399 --> 02:18:43.319 in the final analysis, everybody's going to appeal to the Holy Spirit. Right, 1757 02:18:43.360 --> 02:18:45.719 That's what I said at the very beginning. The Protestant of the Roman 1758 02:18:45.799 --> 02:18:50.920 Catholic the Orthodox are all going to say that for the individual's final ultimate appeal 1759 02:18:50.040 --> 02:18:52.840 of assurance, it's going to come down to the Holy Spirit. So we 1760 02:18:52.920 --> 02:18:56.559 all, if we all agree on that, well, then why do we 1761 02:18:56.639 --> 02:19:00.239 have all these different groups in sex and churches. Well, that's because the 1762 02:19:00.399 --> 02:19:07.399 historical public events and debates and you know the messiness of church history, right, 1763 02:19:07.520 --> 02:19:13.040 that's the public domain. And the debate that we're ultimately having here is 1764 02:19:13.120 --> 02:19:16.799 not whether the individual can have assurance. The debate that we're having is what's 1765 02:19:16.840 --> 02:19:22.719 the public normative authority that states what the cannon is, what the scriptures mean 1766 02:19:24.159 --> 02:19:28.200 and binding and loosing, Doctor Branson, anything that you'd like to add, 1767 02:19:31.600 --> 02:19:35.280 No, I think that's right. I always think it's weird when people I 1768 02:19:35.360 --> 02:19:41.879 just find infallibility such a weird thing to argue about, because if it's if 1769 02:19:41.920 --> 02:19:48.159 it's you know, if the idea is we're talking about like knowing something with 1770 02:19:48.280 --> 02:19:52.319 one hundred percent certainty or something right, I mean I'm not. I mean 1771 02:19:52.399 --> 02:19:56.920 like, let's suppose the pope is infallible or something like always think, well, 1772 02:19:56.959 --> 02:20:01.600 good for him, Like I wish I was the pope so I could, 1773 02:20:01.319 --> 02:20:05.239 but like I'm not. I'm not. I'm never gonna be a hundred 1774 02:20:05.399 --> 02:20:09.680 percent sure that the pope is infallible. So like if he issues something, 1775 02:20:09.760 --> 02:20:13.840 I mean, if he says something, I think it contradicts the Bible. 1776 02:20:13.920 --> 02:20:16.959 Like I'm not gonna be like, Oh, I guess that's really the right 1777 02:20:16.000 --> 02:20:18.879 way to think about it. I'm just think like, oh, I guess 1778 02:20:18.920 --> 02:20:22.479 I was wrong that he was infallible, so you know what I mean, 1779 02:20:22.600 --> 02:20:24.920 Like, so it just seems like, I mean, because if if I 1780 02:20:24.959 --> 02:20:28.479 mean, even if I've got like ninety I'm ninety nine percent sure that he's 1781 02:20:28.520 --> 02:20:31.079 infallible, like just the way probability theory works out, Like if he says 1782 02:20:31.159 --> 02:20:35.760 something I'm like ninety nine percent sure isn't right, then I'm just gonna have 1783 02:20:35.920 --> 02:20:41.680 to revise my probability distributions and things. I guess he wasn't infallible after I 1784 02:20:41.760 --> 02:20:46.600 always always fine. And then if you're just talking about infallibility like like it's 1785 02:20:46.639 --> 02:20:50.280 this metaphysical thing, like he's just got this magical power so that he'll he 1786 02:20:50.479 --> 02:20:54.840 in fact, will never be wrong, like great, but that if I 1787 02:20:54.879 --> 02:20:58.959 don't have any evidence for that, then it doesn't help me. So it's 1788 02:21:00.040 --> 02:21:01.079 so yeah, I mean, so yeah, I do think. I mean, 1789 02:21:01.239 --> 02:21:07.159 yeah, obviously, ultimately everyone just has to think about things for themselves 1790 02:21:07.239 --> 02:21:11.399 and hopefully the Holy Spirit leads them to to the truth or whatever. Like, 1791 02:21:11.559 --> 02:21:16.120 but that's kind of an epistemic point, and I take it the that's 1792 02:21:16.159 --> 02:21:20.399 a Jay's just saying. That's a separate point from like who has authority sort 1793 02:21:20.440 --> 02:21:22.840 of like I would say that, I mean, the Supreme Court has the 1794 02:21:22.959 --> 02:21:28.120 authority in the United States to interpret the law, and that's who has the 1795 02:21:28.200 --> 02:21:31.479 authority? How do I how do I know that for sure? While I 1796 02:21:33.120 --> 02:21:37.840 you know, I read the Constitution, I took you know, social studies 1797 02:21:37.920 --> 02:21:41.239 in high school or whatever, and you know, they could those my teacher 1798 02:21:41.280 --> 02:21:43.399 could have been lying to me, or they could have been wrong. I 1799 02:21:43.479 --> 02:21:48.399 could misunderstand it or whatever. But I'm pretty sure it's all AI generated deep 1800 02:21:48.440 --> 02:21:56.799 face, and yes, that is probably true, and you know that. 1801 02:21:58.639 --> 02:22:03.719 Yeah, right on, right on. Okay, guys, So that's done 1802 02:22:03.760 --> 02:22:07.000 with the super chats we do have? Oh no, wait, I lied. 1803 02:22:07.280 --> 02:22:11.239 There's one more that just came in five dollars per aspirate at astra. 1804 02:22:11.600 --> 02:22:16.799 As an evangelical atheist, I still find the untangling of church history and religious 1805 02:22:16.840 --> 02:22:28.399 ideas fascinating. Good good content guysical atheists evangelically. Oh okay, that's not 1806 02:22:28.600 --> 02:22:31.000 me, by the way, putting that in there. You read my super 1807 02:22:31.079 --> 02:22:35.600 chat wrong, now, that's uh yeah, that that caught me off guard 1808 02:22:35.639 --> 02:22:37.479 for a second. I was like, wait a minute, because I have 1809 02:22:37.680 --> 02:22:43.399 heard of, like, you know, Christian atheists, which I don't know. 1810 02:22:43.920 --> 02:22:48.760 I want to interview one of the girls that I saw on TikTok advocating 1811 02:22:48.879 --> 02:22:50.879 for that position. We were supposed to set something up, but it never 1812 02:22:52.000 --> 02:22:54.879 came to fruitione. But that's okay. Um, so okay. So there 1813 02:22:56.000 --> 02:23:00.319 was a couple questions that came in that was not super chats um and they're 1814 02:23:00.399 --> 02:23:03.040 kind of I don't know almost I get the sense of like imperative that they 1815 02:23:03.079 --> 02:23:07.120 want me to ask you Jay. Um. So this first one is and 1816 02:23:07.479 --> 02:23:11.520 I don't know what this acronym stands for. Maybe you do. Can you 1817 02:23:11.680 --> 02:23:16.479 guys please ask Jay about chalk? Yeah. I think they're just being funny. 1818 02:23:16.520 --> 02:23:18.760 That's okay. I have a sponsor. So my sponsor is chalk dot 1819 02:23:18.799 --> 02:23:22.920 com. So if you're looking for ways to boost test sauce, run use 1820 02:23:22.959 --> 02:23:28.399 the promo code J fifty J five zero at chalk dot com. Right on, 1821 02:23:28.399 --> 02:23:33.920 right on. Okay, Um, let's see here orthodoxology. Maybe Jambo 1822 02:23:35.040 --> 02:23:39.600 can bring up some common objections. I don't know, David, did you 1823 02:23:39.639 --> 02:23:48.440 put that one on there? Bill? Common objections to what good question to 1824 02:23:48.159 --> 02:23:54.000 the critique. Oh, I think maybe some yeah common here against Orthodoxy, 1825 02:23:54.040 --> 02:24:01.159 I think is what he's asking for. No or again, I was thinking 1826 02:24:01.239 --> 02:24:07.559 more on the solo script or aligne and with that that's a wrap. Well, 1827 02:24:07.559 --> 02:24:09.719 I mean, I think some of the things we've heard tonight are common. 1828 02:24:09.840 --> 02:24:13.600 We hear the objection. Common objections are, Yeah, the scriptures or 1829 02:24:13.719 --> 02:24:18.079 theooneustos God breathe, they're sufficient to make the Man of God able to do 1830 02:24:18.319 --> 02:24:22.040 you know so, But a lot of those things aren't, are absolute tized 1831 02:24:22.559 --> 02:24:26.719 or assumed to be just about the written text. Right. For example, 1832 02:24:26.840 --> 02:24:30.239 the scriptures are able to make the Man of God able for every good work 1833 02:24:30.280 --> 02:24:35.600 and so forth. Well, but does that mean that that's all that is 1834 02:24:35.680 --> 02:24:37.200 needed because the scriptures are able to do that, right, I mean the 1835 02:24:37.280 --> 02:24:41.920 church is also able to help the you know, don't forsake the assembling right, 1836 02:24:41.040 --> 02:24:43.680 pray with one another. Those texts a lot of times don't mention other 1837 02:24:43.799 --> 02:24:48.920 things that are integral to what we do, like prayer or going to church. 1838 02:24:48.040 --> 02:24:52.959 So we wouldn't absolute size those things as if nothing else was needed or 1839 02:24:52.079 --> 02:24:58.159 necessary, because it's highlighting one thing that is is perhaps even primary. I 1840 02:24:58.239 --> 02:25:00.479 think you could even argue that some of the scripture, some of the Church 1841 02:25:00.559 --> 02:25:05.239 fathers, this is a common Protestant objection. Well, the church fathers speak 1842 02:25:05.239 --> 02:25:09.600 of this premacy of scripture. Well, but that still doesn't negate that there's 1843 02:25:09.680 --> 02:25:16.280 other authorities and that there's other divine revelation that's not strictly written down right, 1844 02:25:16.399 --> 02:25:20.079 So the fact that one is, for example, in the ecumenical councils, 1845 02:25:20.120 --> 02:25:30.600 you often see them kind of citing scripture. They'll use patristic citations prior to 1846 02:25:30.920 --> 02:25:33.479 like if it's the fifth Council, what do the previous Church fathers say? 1847 02:25:33.000 --> 02:25:37.440 Then they'll use arguments of logic and reason, And so there's kind of there 1848 02:25:37.520 --> 02:25:43.079 is you could say, maybe a tear but premiacy or giving a certain even 1849 02:25:43.159 --> 02:25:46.920 within the scriptures. For example, we think that the Gospels kind of have 1850 02:25:46.040 --> 02:25:52.639 a premiscy in the liturgy. They're honored above Paul's epistles, but honoring something 1851 02:25:52.719 --> 02:25:56.280 above or giving a kind of a statu hierarchy to even the text that doesn't 1852 02:25:56.280 --> 02:25:58.920 necessarily mean that old than the ones that aren't. You know, the Gospels 1853 02:26:00.000 --> 02:26:03.799 are therefore fallible and they're wrong, or you know they're having hierarchy, doesn't 1854 02:26:05.000 --> 02:26:09.440 necessitate a dialectical either or of therefore not infallible or something like that. So 1855 02:26:11.959 --> 02:26:15.440 I hear a lot of Protestant objections I think typically based on just sort of 1856 02:26:15.440 --> 02:26:20.079 assumptions about when one church father says that, you know, he has a 1857 02:26:20.159 --> 02:26:22.520 high view of scripture, but then they'll ignore the other places where he talks 1858 02:26:22.559 --> 02:26:26.879 about the necessity of tradition, you know, something like that. Yeah, 1859 02:26:26.319 --> 02:26:31.600 I saw that on your in Pedro's debate. That seemed like an objection that 1860 02:26:31.680 --> 02:26:35.120 he was bringing up a lot, especially what I think it was athanacious. 1861 02:26:35.399 --> 02:26:39.760 Is that Does that sound familiar? Yeah, I mean authentatious, you know, 1862 02:26:39.840 --> 02:26:41.280 basically, this is the Holy Spirit guided and I see you. So 1863 02:26:41.920 --> 02:26:48.959 any Protestant would agree with that, right right on, doctor Branson. Yeah, 1864 02:26:50.200 --> 02:26:54.479 I'm good, Okay, all right. The last question we have actually 1865 02:26:54.559 --> 02:26:58.639 comes from our other co host, Joshua Davidson, and I thought this was 1866 02:26:58.120 --> 02:27:01.719 this was pretty good. My question is can Jay get us in contact with 1867 02:27:01.840 --> 02:27:09.959 pigot? I need some symbolism, but all right, I mean to come 1868 02:27:09.040 --> 02:27:11.920 on your shows that we're saying, I think that's what he's asking. Yeah, 1869 02:27:13.000 --> 02:27:15.959 I can always I can always ask. Yeah, that'd be that'd be 1870 02:27:16.040 --> 02:27:18.559 great. UM, I don't know if Josh wants to add anything else so 1871 02:27:18.639 --> 02:27:22.680 that or not. He's I don't know why he's not here. He said 1872 02:27:24.040 --> 02:27:26.799 something about being tired or whatever or else. He would have been here, 1873 02:27:26.840 --> 02:27:30.920 but he apologized for not being able to show up. But Jay, since 1874 02:27:30.959 --> 02:27:33.799 you gave your sponsor. UM, if I can find mine real quick, 1875 02:27:33.840 --> 02:27:37.799 I'm gonna give mine. It's Barnabas Clothing dot com. Uh you can. 1876 02:27:39.280 --> 02:27:43.680 They've got Christian uh T shirts, They've got hoodies, they've got jewelry, 1877 02:27:43.079 --> 02:27:46.760 they've got stickers, they've got all kinds of stuff. I'm actually wearing one 1878 02:27:46.760 --> 02:27:50.840 of their shirts now. UM. And and I love I love Barnabas Clothing. 1879 02:27:50.159 --> 02:27:54.639 Um. I've been a brand ambassador for them for about two three months 1880 02:27:54.719 --> 02:27:58.920 now, and everything about them is just phenomenal. So I'm not trying to 1881 02:28:00.120 --> 02:28:01.319 like hype them up to make them out to be something that they're not. 1882 02:28:01.479 --> 02:28:05.479 I really really like their their stuff that they in the in their brand. 1883 02:28:07.120 --> 02:28:11.920 If you want to enter discount code bc amb Tyler F fifteen, you'll get 1884 02:28:11.000 --> 02:28:16.760 fifteen percent off your order at checkout. So check check them out. Uh. 1885 02:28:16.840 --> 02:28:20.280 Like I said, They've got a lot of different things on there and 1886 02:28:20.600 --> 02:28:24.239 I really really liked their their quality of their materials. So let me know 1887 02:28:24.280 --> 02:28:30.000 what you think about Barnabas clothing, David dell Any. I mean we're wrapping 1888 02:28:30.079 --> 02:28:33.840 up. Is there anything that you guys want to add? Um, now's 1889 02:28:33.879 --> 02:28:37.120 your last chance to do it. If you do. Thank you Mark for 1890 02:28:37.159 --> 02:28:41.360 the comment. I didn't see that one. Thank you Mark, Um and 1891 02:28:43.079 --> 02:28:48.120 Orthodoxiology had that one last one. Thank you for this comment as well. 1892 02:28:50.479 --> 02:28:54.079 But yeah, guys, two weeks of worth coming in July. I'll be 1893 02:28:54.159 --> 02:28:58.879 hosting those shows with Travis Ben Watkins will be on the eighth and Travis win 1894 02:29:01.360 --> 02:29:07.159 Rich Subtles the Faith Faitheist Atheist will both be on those first two weeks of 1895 02:29:07.239 --> 02:29:11.079 July, and I'm excited to see what they have to talk about. Ones 1896 02:29:11.120 --> 02:29:16.120 on the value of disagreement and the others on value and uh theism. So 1897 02:29:16.520 --> 02:29:22.959 I'm really excited to have those deep philosophical discussions with these guys and see where 1898 02:29:22.959 --> 02:29:26.239 they're where they're at. So especially with Travis, you know, he's growing 1899 02:29:26.280 --> 02:29:30.120 in his walk and doing stuff like that, so I want to see where 1900 02:29:30.159 --> 02:29:33.079 he's at now. I'll be interested to see what Travis brings to the table. 1901 02:29:33.159 --> 02:29:35.000 Too on that one, since he's converted to Orthodox as well. And 1902 02:29:35.079 --> 02:29:37.360 see, well you're not allowed to be on so I'm not going to be. 1903 02:29:39.159 --> 02:29:43.479 I'm taking a break from from all of my wife's pregnant and I need 1904 02:29:43.520 --> 02:29:46.440 to spend some time with her before this baby comes. So so if y'all 1905 02:29:46.440 --> 02:29:50.399 could be playing praying about that, that'd be that'd be great too. But 1906 02:29:50.559 --> 02:29:54.959 yeah, she's, what I want to say, eleven weeks this week, 1907 02:29:54.280 --> 02:29:58.799 so she's you know, it's still early, but she's definitely filling that first 1908 02:29:58.840 --> 02:30:03.760 tribe master pain, So be praying for her if you would. But Bill, 1909 02:30:03.000 --> 02:30:05.399 is there anything coming up on real seekers that we need to know about? 1910 02:30:07.280 --> 02:30:09.920 Um? Well, the only thing I had I was just going to 1911 02:30:09.040 --> 02:30:15.879 do like that recap of yeah, yeah, my talk with Jay and stuff. 1912 02:30:15.920 --> 02:30:18.600 So of course, all right, so yeah, so what I'm understanding 1913 02:30:18.680 --> 02:30:24.799 here? So it is interesting because when I approached this question of the canidicity, 1914 02:30:24.440 --> 02:30:28.360 UM, I don't really necessarily care about what Jay said. He cared 1915 02:30:28.360 --> 02:30:33.520 about this normative kind of like an outsider test, how how do you tell 1916 02:30:33.559 --> 02:30:37.159 as an outsider? I'm more interested in how do we gain knowledge personally as 1917 02:30:37.239 --> 02:30:43.040 to what is scripture or not? And the uh. You know, that's 1918 02:30:43.079 --> 02:30:45.719 why I can appeal to you properly basic police, and I think that's a 1919 02:30:45.840 --> 02:30:50.520 valid form of gaining a warrant in true belief. However, I think that 1920 02:30:52.280 --> 02:30:56.840 God can provide us with multiple sources of warrant, some of which may qualify 1921 02:30:56.879 --> 02:31:03.879 as the outsider test. And that's where I think my mirror Protestantism or or 1922 02:31:03.319 --> 02:31:09.920 you know, the Protestant Bible only is um is warranted based on the fact 1923 02:31:09.440 --> 02:31:13.040 of an argument. Right, So a modus simple modus opponent's argument, if 1924 02:31:13.600 --> 02:31:24.159 the majority of true Christians over across denominations or sex over time accept a doctrine 1925 02:31:24.239 --> 02:31:28.600 as a true essential doctrine, I think Jay's right where he's saying, I 1926 02:31:28.680 --> 02:31:33.360 might be implied that understanding what the canon is in order to use the canon 1927 02:31:33.440 --> 02:31:37.440 to define the essential beliefs is needed. So okay, great, So let's 1928 02:31:37.479 --> 02:31:43.680 include canonicity as an essential belief for the sake of argument. We if they 1929 02:31:43.719 --> 02:31:48.159 agree on that, then it is probably true. Obviously it's a fact. 1930 02:31:48.440 --> 02:31:52.360 You know, we can affirm the antecedent that. Yeah, the majority of 1931 02:31:52.479 --> 02:32:01.079 Christians overtime across denominations do accept the Protestant canon as it has inspired even if 1932 02:32:01.120 --> 02:32:05.959 they accept otherwise. So it's important to note this argument is warranted, it 1933 02:32:07.159 --> 02:32:11.040 is valid, it is sound. Um. Now Jade does he challenges that 1934 02:32:11.159 --> 02:32:16.680 first premise, right, So why is it the case that the majority of 1935 02:32:18.399 --> 02:32:22.520 Christians across the nominations over time accepting something. How does that make it true? 1936 02:32:22.760 --> 02:32:26.840 And that's where I would just appeal to the fact that, Look, 1937 02:32:26.879 --> 02:32:31.040 the Holy Spirit is said to guide all true Christians at the very least into 1938 02:32:31.239 --> 02:32:35.920 essential truths, gospel true us. Isn't that based on what's in the text 1939 02:32:37.559 --> 02:32:39.360 the claim about the Holy Spirit guiding us? Right, that's from John right, 1940 02:32:41.200 --> 02:32:46.600 Yeah, but the question is what are the texts? So it's a 1941 02:32:46.639 --> 02:32:52.079 circular arguments though, But it's it's it's not because if you if you are 1942 02:32:52.319 --> 02:32:56.360 getting knowledge from the Holy Spirit as to a certain proposition, right, like 1943 02:32:56.760 --> 02:33:01.600 the Holy Spirit in the moment produces within me a properly basic belief with respect 1944 02:33:01.680 --> 02:33:07.840 to a given proposition or something like that. Right. Well, I'm familiar 1945 02:33:07.840 --> 02:33:09.559 with planning as theories, but I mean I could just simply ask you, 1946 02:33:09.639 --> 02:33:13.799 how do you know that that's a properly basic belief? That? So, 1947 02:33:13.920 --> 02:33:18.399 now, canonicity of scripture, which is the historical event is now something that's 1948 02:33:18.440 --> 02:33:24.399 a properly basic, self evident principle. How do you divorce the historical formation 1949 02:33:24.479 --> 02:33:28.159 of the canon from I mean, it's not it's not a prey or it's 1950 02:33:28.200 --> 02:33:33.799 not a self evident principle. Well, it can be any proposition, can 1951 02:33:33.120 --> 02:33:37.959 you say that? But how is that given the fact that your basis was 1952 02:33:37.079 --> 02:33:41.200 the text of John. You just cited the text of John for how you 1953 02:33:41.479 --> 02:33:46.559 are reading the Holy Spirit in this event? Right? Okay? So okay, 1954 02:33:46.639 --> 02:33:48.879 So if if you don't mind, just let me like say my thing 1955 02:33:48.959 --> 02:33:52.799 and then I'll let you respond with your counter response. Afterward you'll get the 1956 02:33:52.840 --> 02:33:54.879 last word, I promise. But um, I just want to give how 1957 02:33:54.920 --> 02:33:58.200 it works. Like I said, so here in the moment, God provides 1958 02:33:58.319 --> 02:34:03.200 us through the Holy Spirit that means of obtaining warrant. How does warrant work 1959 02:34:03.319 --> 02:34:05.920 while it produces a properly basic belief, this is a warranted true belief. 1960 02:34:07.000 --> 02:34:11.440 So that's propositional knowledge. How do I know that I'm warranted? Well, 1961 02:34:11.040 --> 02:34:15.639 this is where we get into the externalism and internalism debate. I believe that 1962 02:34:15.840 --> 02:34:20.399 we are acquainted with knowledge, so we have knowledge of acquaintance whenever we are 1963 02:34:20.520 --> 02:34:24.559 warranted. So that's the mechanism of how I know that the Holy Spirit is 1964 02:34:24.559 --> 02:34:30.799 actually giving me this properly basic belief and that it counts as knowledge. Okay, 1965 02:34:30.840 --> 02:34:33.600 so great, so in the here and now, that's that's how I 1966 02:34:33.639 --> 02:34:37.639 would, I guess, appeal to this. I know that it's true that 1967 02:34:39.120 --> 02:34:43.760 the Holy Spirit has to provide us with most Christians across denominations over time, 1968 02:34:45.399 --> 02:34:50.719 with the true essential beliefs. At least, that's all I'm arguing for. 1969 02:34:50.799 --> 02:34:54.760 It's a minimal argument. I know that that is true, and using that, 1970 02:34:54.440 --> 02:35:00.000 that's how I can make my argument type thing. Now, it's true 1971 02:35:00.239 --> 02:35:05.040 that look this avenue, Jay is correct that this avenue our source of warrant 1972 02:35:05.200 --> 02:35:09.239 doesn't necessarily work in the first century or the first three hundred years. Necessarily 1973 02:35:09.319 --> 02:35:13.440 they didn't have that. They didn't have a completed cannon at that point, 1974 02:35:13.600 --> 02:35:16.879 right, So they can't go, well, look at the majority of Christians 1975 02:35:18.079 --> 02:35:22.159 over time across denominations and game warrant in that way. Um, it just 1976 02:35:22.360 --> 02:35:26.680 may be fine that that avenue isn't open to them. They had some other 1977 02:35:26.840 --> 02:35:31.639 source of warrants, something like James White's argument about you know, again, 1978 02:35:31.719 --> 02:35:35.639 the Holy Spirit is attesting to them. Well, look, I'm a Corinthian 1979 02:35:35.719 --> 02:35:37.879 and Paul's teaching to me the Letter of First Corinthians or something like that, 1980 02:35:39.239 --> 02:35:43.319 and I just know the Holy Spirit attests me in a properly basical way. 1981 02:35:43.440 --> 02:35:46.079 This is the word of God. So I know at least that that is 1982 02:35:48.360 --> 02:35:52.079 that is cannon kind of thing, and you can operate on that basis over 1983 02:35:52.200 --> 02:35:56.040 time. So that yeah, that's my final word. Over to you, 1984 02:35:56.159 --> 02:35:58.200 Jay. You can if you want the last word, you can't. I 1985 02:35:58.200 --> 02:36:01.559 mean, I would just simply say that if I just paus it my position 1986 02:36:01.799 --> 02:36:09.559 as somehow a self evident principle, on what basis would either of us try 1987 02:36:09.600 --> 02:36:13.799 to figure out who's wrong if we have mutually exclusive claims, or if another 1988 02:36:13.879 --> 02:36:18.559 person has a mutual exclusive claim as to what the true Christian is or what 1989 02:36:18.719 --> 02:36:22.959 the canon is. There's got to be some way by which we can adjudicate 1990 02:36:22.120 --> 02:36:28.280 who's right and who's wrong. They can't both be right right right. But 1991 02:36:28.399 --> 02:36:30.920 I'm open to the fact of just saying, well, maybe in the first 1992 02:36:30.920 --> 02:36:35.760 century we just didn't have an outsider test to tell a third party an atheist 1993 02:36:35.879 --> 02:36:41.120 looking on or pagan looking on, there was no available means because all at 1994 02:36:41.159 --> 02:36:45.000 the end of the day, all that matters is that individual Christians have knowledge 1995 02:36:45.040 --> 02:36:48.399 that this is the Word of God and live on that basis. But again, 1996 02:36:48.559 --> 02:36:52.079 I'm just trying to figure out how it's not circular given that your original 1997 02:36:52.159 --> 02:36:56.200 premise, I'm arguing, isn't actually self evident. It's actually wrapped up in 1998 02:36:56.239 --> 02:37:01.799 a lot of assumptions. Some of those assumptions were that the true Christians line 1999 02:37:01.879 --> 02:37:05.959 up with you as what you as a Protestant belief that's the true Christian right. 2000 02:37:05.440 --> 02:37:11.239 So what I'm saying is that in the original premise, there is the 2001 02:37:11.319 --> 02:37:15.719 assumption that the true Christians and the self evident principles that I'm laying out are 2002 02:37:15.799 --> 02:37:18.959 the case by which we would How do we know that that's the starting point? 2003 02:37:22.399 --> 02:37:26.000 Okay, again I'm not trying to debate, but in terms of that 2004 02:37:26.120 --> 02:37:28.719 first premise, like how you're asking me that, how do I know that? 2005 02:37:31.000 --> 02:37:31.680 It took? Gets you with two things. It took issue with the 2006 02:37:31.719 --> 02:37:37.680 first premises claim, and I took issue with the notion that there was that 2007 02:37:37.840 --> 02:37:43.200 this was actually the case historically, and a third point that just because the 2008 02:37:43.280 --> 02:37:48.200 majority of people believe it doesn't why does that tell us that we ought to 2009 02:37:48.319 --> 02:37:52.680 believe something well, right, because in this case it's a special type of 2010 02:37:52.879 --> 02:37:56.760 belief, right, like the I'm saying that, Well, how do you 2011 02:37:56.879 --> 02:38:00.280 know that right? On what basis do you know that? Because my point 2012 02:38:00.399 --> 02:38:03.479 is that it's based on your Protestant presuppositions of what the text of John say 2013 02:38:03.520 --> 02:38:07.079 about the Holy Spirit leading and guiding you. But the question is about the 2014 02:38:07.280 --> 02:38:11.760 text them, So you can't appeal to the text from the question is about 2015 02:38:11.760 --> 02:38:15.200 what books make up the text. Of course you can, because it's it's 2016 02:38:15.280 --> 02:38:18.760 not the I'm not reasoning or deriving this conclusion from what I read in the 2017 02:38:18.840 --> 02:38:22.200 text. I'm not too good because the argument was that you said that the 2018 02:38:22.280 --> 02:38:28.319 Holy Spirit is who is my first principle guiding me to because we're told that 2019 02:38:28.360 --> 02:38:30.959 he would lead us to guidess intul truth. That's a quote from John. 2020 02:38:31.159 --> 02:38:35.440 That's from the text. Okay, So here here's what I'm saying. For 2021 02:38:35.920 --> 02:38:39.319 like the early Christians, they hear the message right about you. Yeah, 2022 02:38:39.360 --> 02:38:43.479 okay, okay, fine, So I hear this proposition about the Holy Spirit 2023 02:38:43.520 --> 02:38:48.360 guiding us to truth. It comes from John. I acknowledge in a properly 2024 02:38:48.440 --> 02:38:54.760 basic way this is true. This proposition is true. So it's not an 2025 02:38:54.920 --> 02:38:58.479 argument per se. How do you know that that first position or first proposition 2026 02:38:58.559 --> 02:39:05.200 itself of it and true? How do I know through like I said, 2027 02:39:05.239 --> 02:39:11.239 the Holy Spirit produces? How do you know the Holy Spirit is the principle 2028 02:39:11.360 --> 02:39:15.840 by which we are guided into truth? Because it's a text, it's it's 2029 02:39:15.879 --> 02:39:18.440 from a text of scripture. Right. Do you think that's self evident or 2030 02:39:18.520 --> 02:39:22.000 is it from scripture? Or is it both? Oh? Okay, I 2031 02:39:22.079 --> 02:39:24.120 see what you're saying, Like, how do I know that the Holy Spirit 2032 02:39:24.239 --> 02:39:28.040 is operating as opposed to media? I know that you that that proposition comes 2033 02:39:28.079 --> 02:39:31.840 from the text of John Okay, I don't believe that it was like beamed 2034 02:39:31.840 --> 02:39:37.520 into your head by osmosis. You got that believe from the text. The 2035 02:39:37.639 --> 02:39:41.280 text is something out of history. Yeah, it's not a self evident maxim 2036 02:39:41.360 --> 02:39:46.360 that you derived through philosophical speculation. Right. Well, so that's true. 2037 02:39:46.479 --> 02:39:50.879 Yeah, so so probably and you said that it doesn't come from the text, 2038 02:39:50.959 --> 02:39:54.040 probably are grounded in an experience. So in this case, this is 2039 02:39:54.120 --> 02:39:56.959 what we learn in scripture, right, and it's not coming from scripture. 2040 02:39:58.000 --> 02:40:00.719 But I'm just saying, said we learned in script sure, but then you 2041 02:40:00.760 --> 02:40:03.680 said it's not coming from scripture. No, well, the first Christians heard 2042 02:40:03.719 --> 02:40:07.040 it orally, and then the Holy Spirit talking about you. Yeah, well 2043 02:40:07.079 --> 02:40:09.360 this is what happens to you. You're not the first centry Christian. To 2044 02:40:09.399 --> 02:40:16.319 you, You're you're epistemic certitude justification for the self evident principle. Okay, 2045 02:40:16.440 --> 02:40:20.920 So so however I get that proposition into my head whatever experience, do I 2046 02:40:22.040 --> 02:40:24.600 read it with my eyeballs or do I hear it orally like the first Christians? 2047 02:40:24.760 --> 02:40:31.600 If it comes from the tax, then Jay let them answer, but 2048 02:40:31.799 --> 02:40:35.639 it is does it come from the text? He's saying no, But then 2049 02:40:35.680 --> 02:40:39.440 he said yes, because grounding. So there's a difference, right, so 2050 02:40:39.559 --> 02:40:45.120 property basically you are undrived. Right, so it's not really if I were 2051 02:40:45.120 --> 02:40:48.159 to really not derived from the text. No, it's grounded. What you 2052 02:40:48.200 --> 02:40:52.120 said it was derived from the text. Right, So you're saying that the 2053 02:40:52.239 --> 02:40:58.799 phrase in the Gospel of John is not from the Gospel my point? Please, 2054 02:40:58.600 --> 02:41:01.079 I get that you're trying to do the gotcha thing. Just just stop. 2055 02:41:01.399 --> 02:41:05.360 We're friends. I like you. I've had a great conversation with you, 2056 02:41:05.479 --> 02:41:07.159 But just let me have it. But you're not going to tell me 2057 02:41:07.200 --> 02:41:09.120 to stop. I mean, we're having a conversation, so well, if 2058 02:41:09.120 --> 02:41:13.079 I'm not, I'm not going to allow you to say and assert things without 2059 02:41:13.639 --> 02:41:16.200 making sense of Well, it's my show. I'm not being uni right, 2060 02:41:16.680 --> 02:41:20.920 I'm just trying to get out my point and then I'll let you. I 2061 02:41:20.079 --> 02:41:24.120 was quiet for the entire time until you said I could talk. Okay, 2062 02:41:24.399 --> 02:41:31.360 okay. So it's grounded in the experience of reading the by the text. 2063 02:41:31.760 --> 02:41:35.319 Hey, let me finish right, reading that problem, then the Holy Spirit 2064 02:41:35.399 --> 02:41:39.680 produces within me a properly basic belief with respect to the truth of that proposition. 2065 02:41:39.879 --> 02:41:43.879 I'm not going, oh, I read this in the text, but 2066 02:41:43.040 --> 02:41:46.200 it did come from the premise in an argument to go therefore it must be 2067 02:41:46.360 --> 02:41:50.840 true. That's the difference. But that is what I think. What you 2068 02:41:50.959 --> 02:41:54.920 want to say is, um, he's so he's reading the text. The 2069 02:41:56.040 --> 02:41:58.760 justification isn't from the text, right, the just exactly just sort of the 2070 02:42:00.040 --> 02:42:05.399 air by the Holy Spirit. But the question originally is what are the texts? 2071 02:42:07.040 --> 02:42:09.680 What makes up the Bible is a bunch of books, right, So 2072 02:42:09.799 --> 02:42:15.600 the question is which books make up this book? And so unless you want 2073 02:42:15.639 --> 02:42:18.600 it to be circular, it's not going to be an appeal to the text. 2074 02:42:18.760 --> 02:42:20.799 And I'm just pointing out that your first principle is an appeal to the 2075 02:42:20.879 --> 02:42:28.239 text. I think you could say, I mean, hypothetically speaking, you 2076 02:42:28.319 --> 02:42:33.600 could just imagine, you could just have a fever dream where you imagine the 2077 02:42:33.719 --> 02:42:39.520 proposition that whatever, whatever, the proposition is right, and the Holy Spirit 2078 02:42:41.040 --> 02:42:46.639 magically makes you know it. So how do we adjudicate between contradictory claims of 2079 02:42:46.680 --> 02:42:48.280 the Holy Spirit? Right? That was kind of my point with the luther 2080 02:42:48.440 --> 02:42:52.719 example, or the person who says, well, my cannon that I've studied 2081 02:42:52.760 --> 02:43:03.559 to is two Gospels. That's it. Nothing else. Who's that too? 2082 02:43:05.399 --> 02:43:09.799 Sorry? Who is that? Who was that question too? Yeah? Okay, 2083 02:43:09.399 --> 02:43:13.399 well, so like what was the question again? Because again I think, 2084 02:43:13.440 --> 02:43:18.680 how would we adjudicate between rival claims of the Holy Spirit's guidance when obviously 2085 02:43:18.760 --> 02:43:20.600 in history, like everybody's gonna claim what the Holy Spirit's got him. Me 2086 02:43:22.159 --> 02:43:24.000 Marcian thought the Gold Spirit was guiding him to his canton. Right, So 2087 02:43:24.479 --> 02:43:30.479 when we have contradictory claims, how we're going to resolve this claim apart from 2088 02:43:30.639 --> 02:43:37.959 normative public authority? But also, I mean, but besides just hypothetic like 2089 02:43:37.159 --> 02:43:41.719 Marcione or like you know, just Jude or something. I mean, there's 2090 02:43:41.799 --> 02:43:46.879 much more innocent, like real cases like this in history, like the Peshita 2091 02:43:48.040 --> 02:43:50.600 you know, is used by the the entire like or has been used by 2092 02:43:50.639 --> 02:43:56.079 the entire like a Syrian church and lacked you know, second Peter and second 2093 02:43:56.120 --> 02:44:03.200 and third John Gregory Nazi ends and leaves the Book of Revelation out of his 2094 02:44:03.399 --> 02:44:07.920 cannon. He I mean, he specifically lists the other twenty six books and 2095 02:44:07.040 --> 02:44:13.239 specifically says nothing else is part of the canon. Right, So like there's 2096 02:44:13.399 --> 02:44:18.120 you know, people like whole can you hold churches and like saints and you 2097 02:44:18.239 --> 02:44:24.959 know serious like there are serious canons you know of scripture that are different from 2098 02:44:26.120 --> 02:44:31.520 the Protestant cannon. And those people would say that the Holy Spirit was leading 2099 02:44:31.600 --> 02:44:35.120 them to believe that canon. To Luthor believed that the Holy Spirit at the 2100 02:44:35.200 --> 02:44:39.360 point where he was denying Hebrews in Revelation, and he thought the Holy Spirit 2101 02:44:39.440 --> 02:44:43.399 was leading him to that as well. So we've got to have some kind 2102 02:44:43.399 --> 02:44:48.600 of public means by which we can adjudicate these these varying Holy Spirit claims, 2103 02:44:48.639 --> 02:44:52.479 as my point, and that's really what I'm what we're trying to get through 2104 02:44:52.840 --> 02:44:54.559 to you guys with the orthodox position, right, is that we do have 2105 02:44:54.680 --> 02:45:01.200 a public authority that does function in that role. Okay, cool, and 2106 02:45:01.680 --> 02:45:03.719 thank you so thank you so much. I finally got out. Thank you 2107 02:45:03.760 --> 02:45:07.719 so much, Jay for indulging in this. Like I said, despite the 2108 02:45:07.040 --> 02:45:09.879 interruptions, I've had fun, Like I've learned from you and stuff like that. 2109 02:45:11.120 --> 02:45:16.280 So what one last question, because my whole thing, what if there 2110 02:45:16.360 --> 02:45:22.719 just was no outsider test, but yet there was an internal test for Christians 2111 02:45:22.840 --> 02:45:26.639 to tell between competing claims. Why does there have to be an outsider test 2112 02:45:26.879 --> 02:45:31.799 at all periods of history? Well, I think we see in the rimes 2113 02:45:31.799 --> 02:45:37.760 of the Church fathers. Then pointing to those external tests in those centuries, 2114 02:45:37.879 --> 02:45:39.840 right, if you read book three of r and As he does precisely what 2115 02:45:41.000 --> 02:45:45.559 I said. He does have these external signifiers and signs and things that you 2116 02:45:45.600 --> 02:45:48.719 can point to. The Abstoli succession, the reciting of the Common Creed. 2117 02:45:50.680 --> 02:45:52.639 What's the you know, do they have the same faith as the Church in 2118 02:45:52.799 --> 02:45:56.840 Rome and the other churches throughout the Empire? I mean there are these external 2119 02:45:56.959 --> 02:46:01.079 criteria that are listed in many cases in the church others. So First of 2120 02:46:01.120 --> 02:46:03.799 all, I just think that it's historically a fact that that is the case. 2121 02:46:05.360 --> 02:46:09.719 And I also don't buy the sort of Wiemling Craig position that there is 2122 02:46:09.760 --> 02:46:13.920 such a thing as lowest common denominator Christianity, or that we could in some 2123 02:46:15.079 --> 02:46:20.680 ways scale off who's a Christian without some kind of public historical reference. For 2124 02:46:20.760 --> 02:46:24.719 example, Mormons are not Christian, Show's witnesses are not Christian. But that 2125 02:46:26.159 --> 02:46:30.959 again hinges on. You know, is Nicia an expression of what it is 2126 02:46:31.000 --> 02:46:33.079 to be a Christian? If it is, then now we're again it's you 2127 02:46:33.159 --> 02:46:37.200 see how it's not as self evident or as clear. Once we get into 2128 02:46:37.239 --> 02:46:39.319 the weeds, we actually have to start ferreting out. Okay, well, 2129 02:46:39.360 --> 02:46:43.440 actually, you know, Nicea teaches the much more than just the duty of 2130 02:46:43.520 --> 02:46:46.840 Christ as all these other things. So now now Niceya is not actually any 2131 02:46:48.239 --> 02:46:54.159 real historical thing for a Protestant. It's really just a it's just a well 2132 02:46:54.159 --> 02:46:56.799 it's nice that that happened, but it really doesn't have any relevance to a 2133 02:46:56.879 --> 02:47:00.760 Protestant, you see, because the actual teaching him Niceia includes all of these 2134 02:47:00.799 --> 02:47:05.200 other elements that no Protestant accepts. So I'm just saying you can't have a 2135 02:47:05.319 --> 02:47:15.360 self evident internal positions as a Christian when Christianity is a historic religion with a 2136 02:47:15.600 --> 02:47:20.200 history of church fathers and people putting the Bible together. There's no such thing 2137 02:47:20.280 --> 02:47:24.879 as a Bible or canon divorced from history. That's I just don't see how 2138 02:47:24.920 --> 02:47:28.520 this is possible. And I understand the motivations for why we want we might 2139 02:47:28.600 --> 02:47:33.440 want to construct some a priori guidance of the Holy Spirit, but really my 2140 02:47:33.600 --> 02:47:37.559 point was just that it looks to me like what that amounts to when you 2141 02:47:37.639 --> 02:47:43.559 flesh it out, is just Protestantism, right, But that's the thing in 2142 02:47:43.719 --> 02:47:46.200 question, is Protestantism. So cool? Yeah, yeah, thank you so 2143 02:47:46.360 --> 02:47:54.559 much for answering that the Yeah, thanks for the conversation. Absolutely all right, 2144 02:47:54.799 --> 02:47:58.440 y'all, that was interesting. So and Jay and Bow again, I've 2145 02:47:58.520 --> 02:48:03.000 really really appreciate you all coming on to do this. We'd love to have 2146 02:48:03.120 --> 02:48:07.280 you guys back on again, maybe talk about like Christology or something. By 2147 02:48:07.280 --> 02:48:09.600 the way, Yeah, I was gonna ask at the end of year and 2148 02:48:09.600 --> 02:48:13.799 Padres conversation, there was talks about doing a Christology episode with him. Did 2149 02:48:13.879 --> 02:48:18.559 that ever come to fruition or not yet? I haven't heard any haven't heard 2150 02:48:18.559 --> 02:48:22.239 a peep. I don't know what happened with Pedro, Okay, I mean 2151 02:48:22.280 --> 02:48:24.000 I think I haven't seen him on any more live streams or debates, so 2152 02:48:24.079 --> 02:48:28.079 I mean there wasn't any drama. I just haven't heard from no right right 2153 02:48:28.200 --> 02:48:31.200 right, okay, right on. If that ever comes about, let me 2154 02:48:31.239 --> 02:48:33.319 know, man, because I would love to hear you guys talk about that, 2155 02:48:33.520 --> 02:48:35.959 or you know, come on our show and talk about some Christology. 2156 02:48:37.760 --> 02:48:41.360 But y'all, that wraps it up for this episode. We will see you 2157 02:48:41.520 --> 02:48:46.879 next time. We've got one more episode this month, June thirtieth, at 2158 02:48:48.040 --> 02:48:52.000 seven pm Eastern time. We're going to be talking the paranormal with one of 2159 02:48:52.040 --> 02:48:56.879 my Roman Catholic friends, Nicholas Soliner. So stay tuned for that and we 2160 02:48:56.920 --> 02:49:00.200 will see you next time. Until then, good night, God bless and 2161 02:49:00.440 --> 02:49:01.920 stay like Christ like go