1 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,879 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,879 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:28,359 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:32,280 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and if you want 5 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,320 to support our work, you can head on over to the Federalist dot com 6 00:00:35,359 --> 00:00:41,039 slash donate. You can donate to the Federalists Real News Initiative. We're so 7 00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:44,399 excited about that, so head over there if you want to support our work. 8 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:48,079 You can also access the premium version of our website as well. We 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,960 are joined today once again by Jeffrey Kaine, who is the policy director over 10 00:00:53,119 --> 00:00:57,000 at the Tech Integrity Project. We last had Jeff on the show to talk 11 00:00:57,039 --> 00:01:03,240 about his book The Perfect Police State. He is and has been writing working 12 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,079 on these issues as they relate to China for years and years. Is one 13 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:11,719 of the foremost thinkers and writers and researchers on this issue. So we're very 14 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,840 excited to have Jeff back on the show. Thanks so much for joining us, 15 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,560 Jeff, Thanks for having me, Emily. Now, if you could, 16 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,920 maybe if people didn't hear the first episode that we did basically take us 17 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,560 through how you ended up zeroing in on China issues. That would be awesome. 18 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,239 So I was an investigative journalist for many years in East Asia. I 19 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,599 had been in China, and I had been covering China since two thousand and 20 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,480 eight, so the two thousand and eight Olympics was in Beijing. I had 21 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:48,799 been building a specialty in the country, and in particular it's technologies, the 22 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:55,120 technologies that the Chinese Communist Party was unveiling and unfolding and that it wanted to 23 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:59,400 use to build its police state, its surveillance state. So I had been 24 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:02,200 going in to a region of China over the years called Hinjong, which is 25 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:07,599 home to the Wager population. The Leaguers are a mostly Muslim group, a 26 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:13,520 minority in China that has been persecuted relentlessly by the Chinese government. They're treated 27 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,439 as terrorists. They're called you know, religious names. There. Recently, 28 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:22,240 there was a report that showed that mosques have been desecrated and destroyed by the 29 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,680 by the Chinese Communist Party, and so I had been covering this story. 30 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,840 I had been getting really interested interested in this particular region of the world because 31 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:38,599 I saw that what was happening there was going to reverberate for years to come 32 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:42,080 all over the world. That you know, even though this was an obscure 33 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,919 place, most Americans weren't really paying attention to what was happening to the Wagers. 34 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,719 It's not exactly something that you would, you know, turn on the 35 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:53,840 news and see it like headline news every evening. But I saw there that 36 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,319 there was something happening that was going to matter big. And what was happening 37 00:02:59,719 --> 00:03:05,879 was that China was using this region as the testing ground for the world's most 38 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:12,919 sophisticated and most brutal surveillance state ever. I mean, we're talking about a 39 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,360 surveillance state on the level of a science fiction novel. So, you know, 40 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:23,439 there's the old movie Minority Report, there's you know, George Orwell's nineteen 41 00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:27,599 eighty four. There was a whole genre of books and movies from the twentieth 42 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,360 century that tried to predict what the world would look like in you know, 43 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:38,400 in generations. And what this region showed of Shinjong is that we have already 44 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:43,960 obtained this We've obtained this nineteen eighty four level of technology. And it was 45 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,400 in China that the government was beginning to roll this out. The entire population 46 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:52,560 there was being surveilled by cameras, the biggest camera network in the world. 47 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:58,280 They were using an artificial intelligence system that's called skynet. Literally Skynet as from 48 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,039 Terminator, and they were using this to surveil everybody. The scoop up data 49 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,560 about everything they were doing every day. So what time they woke up in 50 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:09,240 the morning, what time they went to bed, you know, what they 51 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,319 did at work that day. Did they stand and seeing the national anthem? 52 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,400 And at what time did they do it? Were they sick today, do 53 00:04:15,479 --> 00:04:18,160 they have the flu? And you know, trying to compile all these minuscule 54 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,399 facts about their lives and then predict what they're going to do. This is 55 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:28,959 predictive policing. The AI, within about a year, got out of control 56 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,680 and started predicting that just about everybody was a terrorist or a criminal. The 57 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:40,920 Chinese Communist Party had established a state that we have never seen before because literally 58 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,839 anybody could be taken away to a concentration camp because a computer system said that 59 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:49,360 they might be a criminal in the future. That really is the stuff of 60 00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:53,560 a sci fi terror. I mean, that is what I grew up reading 61 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,720 books on and to see it there in real life in China was shocking and 62 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,279 terrifying and devastating. The there were one point eight billion people who were taken 63 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:05,240 away to concentration camps. This is the largest internment of a group since the 64 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:11,399 Holocaust, and the US State Department has since declared this a genocide, one 65 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:15,000 of the big genocides of the world, happening under our noses right now in 66 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:20,439 China. This is what got me interested in this topic. I gathered material, 67 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:24,319 spent many years living in China, and then I moved to Turkey, 68 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,639 where many of the leaguer refugees were headed. I spent about four years interviewing 69 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,319 them, documenting their stories, and also locating a number of defected spies from 70 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,800 the Chinese Communist Party, from a group called the Ministry of State Security, 71 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:44,120 who had inside knowledge and inside data about how these systems work. So I 72 00:05:44,199 --> 00:05:48,959 was the first journalist to get to them. They revealed facts that were just 73 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,600 beyond terrifying about how the CCP was surveilling everyone, I mean everyone, you 74 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,879 can imagine. They showed me data that suggested that even CCP companies that were 75 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:04,279 exporting these cameras to other countries they had a direct line. They were using 76 00:06:04,319 --> 00:06:09,120 that to spy on governments all over the world, and meanwhile this was infecting 77 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:15,639 countries everywhere, this Chinese technology. Now, what was most alarming about this 78 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:21,079 story to me was that American big tech companies had a hand in helping create 79 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:30,360 this. Companies like Apple had been involved in slave labor. Apple had obviously 80 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,759 not directly involved in slave labor, but had contracted to a firm that was 81 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:41,959 using slave labor from this oppress weaker population. Microsoft had helped build the AI 82 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,720 ecosystem of developers and technologies that has since propelled this surveillance state in China. 83 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:53,279 Other companies, you know, Amazon, Amazon runs the web services company AWS. 84 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:57,000 They've been deeply involved in China. And as I got deeper and deeper 85 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,360 into this topic, I realized that the surveillance state that China had created, 86 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,560 it was also an American problem because American big tech companies are the ones that 87 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:11,879 are working there, that are selling them these technologies that are helping the state 88 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,680 do what it wants to do. It really is a horrific situation, and 89 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,800 we haven't done enough to address it. You know, I was going to 90 00:07:18,839 --> 00:07:25,680 ask about that actually because I think The last time we spoke was before the 91 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,879 sort of the crackdown legislatively, so from Congress the it's called the Weird Labor 92 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:34,000 Force Protection Act, right is the Yes, that's the one. So I 93 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,519 helped write that bill in Congress, I returned to DC. I spent a 94 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,040 year in the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and it was kind of interesting because 95 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,240 I had been a foo of the Chinese Communist Party in China for all those 96 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:48,839 years. They knew who I was. They kicked me out. In the 97 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:53,000 end, they detained me, and I was in Hinjong. I was doing 98 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,920 my work and they said, look, we know who you are. You 99 00:07:55,959 --> 00:07:58,079 have to buy a ticket out and leave, or else you're in big trouble. 100 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:01,000 They made it clear that I would be placed on or arrastif I stayed 101 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,319 any longer. So the next morning out I bought my ticket and I was 102 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,600 out of China. I hadn't been back since then. It's been six years 103 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:09,879 now, very long time, and the country has changed enormously since I was 104 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,240 there. So I returned. So after I moved to Turkey, I returned 105 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:18,160 to the States and then I took all the work I was doing and I 106 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:24,680 joined Congress and I had a hand in writing and advising some of the sanctions, 107 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,439 including this bill, the Weaker Force Labor Prevention Act. What that bill 108 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:35,440 did is it sought to cut off slave labor force labor from China by placing 109 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,279 the onus on private American companies to prove that they are not using slave labor 110 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,600 in their imports to America. Previously, under anti slavery law in the US, 111 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,840 the rule was that the US government would have to bring evidence or prove 112 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,360 or show a suspicion that this was potentially a product made the slave labor. 113 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:01,840 But now any company that is in reporting a product from China, there's a 114 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:05,799 chance, a strong chance that that has gone through Shinjong at some point somewhere 115 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:09,159 in the supply chain, and a strong chance that if it did go through 116 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:15,440 Shinjong, then slave labor was used to create that product. And now you 117 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,559 know, those products can mostly not be imported. There are some exceptions, 118 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:24,559 there are some loopholes in the law which are now being closed up this this 119 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,480 bill. I consider it to be very important in you know, in the 120 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,080 in the fight against global slavery, because previously, you know, there was 121 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,480 no such restriction on these kinds of products. I mean it was it was 122 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:39,360 like a free for all. I mean, you could import this about anything 123 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,440 and get it by customs if you had just the right paperwork or just the 124 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:48,279 right lawyer to say the right thing. But now we have new documentation that 125 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,159 shows just how bad this genocide is, and so we need countermeasures to ensure 126 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,600 that, you know, this genocide is not being funded by US companies. 127 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:03,960 Yeah, it's a really interesting bill that I think probably can be replicated actually 128 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,679 in other areas of the economy. And one of the questions I was going 129 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:09,759 to ask, Jeff if somebody follows this so closely, and so closely in 130 00:10:09,799 --> 00:10:15,200 fact that you actually worked crafting this bill is to the extent that Shinjong was 131 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,200 being used as a testing ground for some of these immense, large scale surveillance 132 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:28,960 systems, these kind of programs of oppression, repression and conditioning, all of 133 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,440 that. Since the global community has sort of turned its eyes to Shinjong, 134 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:41,240 things like the Weager Force Labor Protection Act, things like the US finally declaring 135 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:48,000 genocide what was happening in Shinjong and genocide? How have if they have some 136 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:54,840 of those experimentations in surveillance and conditioning et cetera. How have they migrated perhaps 137 00:10:54,879 --> 00:11:01,360 beyond the borders of Shinjong If they have and in ways, you know what, 138 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:03,879 how has that testing ground you know, proven itself to be a testing 139 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:07,799 ground since the global community has sort of shifted its attention to the extent that 140 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,519 it actually has to Shinjong. A First, the testing ground spread across China 141 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,519 kinda had some of the worst COVID lockdowns in the world. I mean we're 142 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:26,799 talking facial recognition surveillance place everywhere in cities like Shanghai and Beijing. Drone sent 143 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:31,879 out around the streets that were surveiling the streets to ensure that nobody was leaving 144 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,679 their apartment at all, even if it was just to grab groceries. There 145 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,120 were people who I know who live in Shanghai who would be sitting on their 146 00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:41,720 balcony, you know, smoking a cigarette or having a beer, just to 147 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,279 wind down for the evening, and a Chinese drone would fly by and take 148 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,039 their photo and then they would be sent a fine for the enormous crime under 149 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,200 the Chinese Communist Party of you know, having a cigarette on your balcony under 150 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,720 lockdown. It's like, you know, what is that? That is? 151 00:11:56,919 --> 00:12:01,600 How far the CCP wants to go in building a surveilled state, and it 152 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:05,559 wants to export this too. This is not something that is limited only to 153 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:11,720 China anymore. We've seen, you know, in the past five years with 154 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,360 the expansion of AI, the expansion of facial recognition, new advances and semi 155 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:22,000 deductor technology. We've seen how far the CCP wants to go to export this 156 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:26,240 tech and what they want to do with it overseas as well. Now, 157 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,480 luckily here in the US, we've blocked off a lot of these technologies. 158 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,600 There are sanctions against Chinese cameras, for example, Chinese AI, so you 159 00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:37,039 know, that is not something that we have to directly worry about right now, 160 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,840 but it's spreading everywhere else around the world. So sub Saharan Africa, 161 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:48,159 South America, you know, Central Asia, mostly poorer countries that are vulnerable 162 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,759 that have you know, dictators who want to maintain power indefinitely pass it to 163 00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:58,159 their kids. They're they're calling on China, and they're calling on Chinese companies 164 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,120 like Huawei and all these other companies to build their own surveillance states. So 165 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,080 China is the model. We are locked in a cold war that is not 166 00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:13,720 an overstatement, and this Cold war is divided between the authoritarian regimes that support 167 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:18,919 China and then here in America the US and our allies who support the principles 168 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:22,320 of democracy. So, you know, so personally, like, I think 169 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:28,159 the Trump administration did a great job of kicking off these sensions, of going 170 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,440 hard on this topic and of not bowing down to you know, what has 171 00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:37,120 happened with you know, with China in the past five years. They have 172 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,360 stood up to Chinese companies. Now, sadly, on the other hand, 173 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:43,440 a lot of this progress has slowed down. The Biden administration has failed to 174 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,679 ban and spin off TikTok, a major threat to our ecosystem here, I 175 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,279 mean a major trojan horse that is just a CCP product, that is that 176 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,320 that is you know, being used to spread Hamas propaganda and other types of 177 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,519 propaganda in America. A lot of this has slowed down under the Biden administration, 178 00:14:03,639 --> 00:14:09,919 and it's worrisome. It's worrisome because China is now making more and more 179 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,720 inroads and there are more and more of these companies coming here, but also 180 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,320 more American companies still going over there and opening up shop and helping the CCP 181 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,960 obtain these goals. Hey everybody, this is Sarah Carter from the Sarah Carter 182 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,000 Show. Thanks so much for listening to the Federalist Radio Hour. We could 183 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,840 all benefit from heart healthy energy, and one of the best ways to do 184 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:37,399 that is by supporting your blood pressure and circulation. 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Many people were paying attention to US China connections, and 203 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,759 there's so much that's obviously problematic. You have so many comparisons that are obviously 204 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:03,159 app you know, like the Soviet Union basically owning NBC in you know, 205 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:10,840 nineteen seventy two. All of that one hundred percent true. Are there things 206 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,360 that people even aren't thinking about when it comes to TikTok? Obviously, the 207 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:18,559 events of October seventh, the backlash, the aftermath have exposed the dangers or 208 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:22,879 illustrated it, I think in a way that is easier for people to see 209 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:30,039 and understand just the pragmatic challenges of TikTok being under essentially, you know, 210 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,080 potentially being under the sway or influence of the CCP at any given moment. 211 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:37,919 They algorithm, being you know, vulnerable to influence at any given moment. 212 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,120 Are the things people don't think about when it comes to TikTok? Are the 213 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,679 things that really worry you that you don't see getting enough attention when it comes 214 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,360 to TikTok? Well, I was just in Israel. I was there for 215 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,320 two weeks right after the October seventh attacks, and I met Israelis in the 216 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,519 military, including top military officials, technologists, people who work on these same 217 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,480 exact topics, and they said the exact same thing. They were looking at 218 00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:07,200 TikTok, and they said, why am I sitting in Tel Aviv, Israel 219 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:12,279 right now and getting bombarded with Prohamas messages after a major terrorist attack on our 220 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:17,240 country? I mean, could you imagine in the aftermath of nine to eleven 221 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:22,000 American teenagers are being flooded with you know, Osamovan Lauden is a good guy, 222 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:27,160 and you know Hamas is a great organization, and Alkieda is just standing 223 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:33,039 up to oppression. You know, I imagine the ridiculousness of that ever happening, 224 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,440 And how the American public would react. Well, over in Israel, 225 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:41,440 that has happened to a lot of people who are using TikTok, and it's 226 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,400 just it's puzzling to them. They're saying, like, this is this is 227 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,279 so bizarre because nobody in Israel wants to look at this right now. So 228 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:52,039 why is the algorithm pushing this on us? And the probable answer is, 229 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:59,200 well, because you know, this algorithm is effectively controlled by the Chinese Communist 230 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,559 Party. Under Chinese law, if the CCP does want to get access to 231 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,759 data and does want to use that algorithm, TikTok is required in China to 232 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:12,880 allow the CCP to do that. There's really no dividing line. There's no 233 00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:18,680 boundary between what the CCP wants and what TikTok is allowed to do for its 234 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,240 own profit making endeavors. And that's one of the things that a lot of 235 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,640 Americans often forget or don't understand about dealing with these Chinese companies. They don't 236 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:33,279 have a separation of public and private or separation of powers like we have in 237 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:37,039 America. There's no due process, there's no judicial system that values the rights 238 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:42,599 the people. The Chinese judicial system and the CCP is set up to enforce 239 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,400 the power of the state, the power of the party. It is not 240 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:52,160 there to look out for the private interests of a company like TikTok or its 241 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,519 parent company by Dance. So I think that explains a lot of what we're 242 00:18:56,519 --> 00:19:00,039 seeing. That's also why here in America come off propagain has just been out 243 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:06,319 of control. There's even been you know, Osama bin Laden's letter to America 244 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,160 spreading on TikTok and being picked up by American gen z ers and you know, 245 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,720 being praised as this great this great letter, this great form of thinking 246 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:18,799 from a major terrorist who just said that America created its own problems and that 247 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,519 America is responsible for nine to eleven. You know, it's just, you 248 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:30,519 know, TikTok really takes problems of social media to a new level and actively 249 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,440 pedals real propaganda. You know. One of the other points. You know, 250 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,440 there's been this whole debate over misinformation in the last few years. You 251 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,039 know, like, is Twitter spreading disinformation? Is disinformation going to meet people, 252 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:48,839 you know, damage our society or do something crazy? Well, I 253 00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:52,720 mean, you know, people who are saying that should stop worrying about accents, 254 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,279 stop worrying about Facebook and go look at TikTok because that's where the actual 255 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:07,480 propaganda is being spread. Yeah, can you talk more about that's also interesting 256 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:12,960 in the wake of October seventh, but also the sort of Putin China relationship 257 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:18,000 in the wake of October seventh is interesting, but was already interesting before October 258 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:22,400 seventh, and they had their recently obviously had the tenth anniversity of the Belton 259 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,640 Road Initiative in Beijing, where Putin came actually one of his first trips abroad, 260 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:30,759 I think maybe his second trip abroad since the war in Ukraine began, 261 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:37,440 because he's under so many international sanctions and all of that, but he went 262 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,119 to Beijing, he celebrated, handshake with did the handshakes with Shijin Ping, 263 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:51,200 the photo ops. How has China standing shifted in the world, especially in 264 00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:56,000 light of more reporting about Belton Road, the problems with Belton Road, more 265 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,799 reporting about shin Jong, more international attention to what happened in Chinjunk, but 266 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:07,519 also these huge hot conflicts in the Middle East in Ukraine. You've been paying 267 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:11,400 attention to this for a really long time. What is China sur stature? 268 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,519 How has it been affected over the last couple of years. China's goal is 269 00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:21,799 to be a superpower that rivals America. It wants to be a nation that 270 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:26,319 can spread its own authoritarian ideology, and it wants to do that through alliances 271 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:34,480 with Putin's Russia with other authoritarian countries around the world. So Russia's stature was 272 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,400 severely diminished after the war in Ukraine about two years ago. The invasion of 273 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:44,279 Ukraine led to the collapse of the Russian currency. It later recovered, but 274 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:48,640 it did collapse. At the beginning. There were heavy sanctions that the US, 275 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,319 the EU, numerous other countries placed on Russia, and so it was 276 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:57,400 really looking for a while like the Russian elite that supported Putin was potentially going 277 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,640 to go down or at least be signific could lead damaged in some way. 278 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,799 A lot of that never happened, and part of the reason is because China 279 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:11,400 stepped in. So at the beginning, China did not issue a statement explicitly 280 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:17,480 supporting Russia in its invasion of Ukraine. The statement that they would issue would 281 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:19,640 would usually be along the lines of we call for peace, we call for 282 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,480 a resolution to this conflict. So something that's vague and doesn't take sides. 283 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,880 That's how the CCP operates on the international stage. At the beginning, they 284 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,559 put this cloak of non alignment over major wars. There's also something that they're 285 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:37,079 doing now with Israel and Hamas. And as the cloak is you know, 286 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:45,039 pulled over people's eyes, the CCP spends the next few years moving in dining 287 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:48,680 backdoor deals, you know, shaking hands with some of these dictators, people 288 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,240 like Putin in his allies, and then setting that so and then the CCP 289 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:59,920 will set itself up as the patron as the you know, the the bene 290 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:06,359 factor of another authoritarian regime like Russia. Russia was weak, it was vulnerable, 291 00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:11,319 it was suffering heavy losses in Ukraine. And now China has stepped in 292 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,559 with foreign direct investment, with Belton Road, with many of these technology exports 293 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:21,839 that Putin is now using to surveil the country. Also with some actions that 294 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,839 are in contravention of international sanctions. It's been selling certain types of ammunition and 295 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:33,880 weaponrys of Russia that is essentially arming Russia in the war in Ukraine. This 296 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,279 has been a two year campaign to take advantage of Russia's weakness after the Ukraine 297 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:44,880 War and to turn Russia into a satellite state of China. That's their ultimate 298 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,799 goal. Now, obviously, Russia is a big place, and you know, 299 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,240 a dictator like Putin is not going to simply bow to China in exchange 300 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,480 for help. It's going to be a lot more complicated than that. But 301 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,240 China does now have the upper hand over Russia. This is the opposite of 302 00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:03,240 the Cold War or forty years ago, when the Soviet Union was the one 303 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:08,039 calling the shots ultimately in the international communists order. Now it is China that's 304 00:24:08,079 --> 00:24:14,519 calling the shots, and it's China that is the international center of gravity for 305 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,839 the authoritarian world. So what does that mean going forward? I think that 306 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,680 we need to be worried about a few key points. That Russia will do 307 00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:26,559 more of what China wants in the future, and that you know, could 308 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:33,440 include an invasion of Taiwan. Russia would probably immediately back China because this mirror 309 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,359 is its own invasion in Ukraine. And if that invasion Taiwan in Taiwan happens, 310 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,559 and it probably will happen sometime this decade, that's going to pit Russia 311 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:48,279 and China together against the entire free war world that is opposed to the war 312 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:52,880 in Ukraine and that is opposed to a war in Taiwan. We're essentially seeing 313 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:59,319 the emergence of an access that consists of Russia and China and also Iran, 314 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,640 which back Kamas and Hesbala in the Middle East. These three countries together are 315 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:10,119 growing closer and closer because of world geopolitics, and this is something that we 316 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,960 need to be extremely worried about because this is not like the Axis of Evil 317 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,480 after nine to eleven. Those are three countries that worked somewhat together, but 318 00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:23,640 weren't really you know, cohering into an actual alliance that was trying to take 319 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:30,119 down America. This is an actual alliance that's forming between three countries that want 320 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:36,160 to end democracy, you know, and secular democracy, and you know, 321 00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:40,079 certain types of religion, Christianity, certain types of worship. They do want 322 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:48,039 to enforce their own state on the rest of the world. And it's interesting. 323 00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:56,880 I'm always curious how China observers interpret the rhetoric of Chijinping, because on 324 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,160 the one hand, he says sometimes I think he says different things at different 325 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,680 times. Obviously these are coming through translations, and that can be clumsy in 326 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:10,039 and of itself, but you know, he talks about the sort of Chinese 327 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,559 style socialism and world peace, and he countures everything in those terms. We 328 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:19,400 saw some similar rhetoric in his meeting with Biden here in the US, which 329 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:22,680 was fascinating in of itself, And maybe, Jeff, you have some thoughts 330 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,960 to offer on that. But what should people be aware of when you know 331 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:32,640 there are and some China apologists here in the US. Will you say that, 332 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:33,599 well, this is what she Jinping is saying. You know, he's 333 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,279 entirely on defense when it comes to Taiwan. Yeah, he's only responding to 334 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:45,799 American incursions and American aggression. He's only responding to American rhetorical aggression. He's 335 00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:52,759 only helping putin you know whatever with his own territory. Blah blah blah, 336 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:56,480 all of these sort of anti Western, anti American points of rhetoric that I 337 00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:00,680 think she didn't paying is sort of careful to exploit by talking about peace and 338 00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:04,279 the world order, et cetera, et cetera. What should people be aware 339 00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:10,680 of when they're kind of trying to translate I don't mean that literally, but 340 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,839 kind of translate what he's saying versus what he means. Look at the CCP 341 00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:22,960 playbook. What he says is not really what it means, and this is 342 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,839 what she Diinping and his allies have become masters of. It's a rhetorical style 343 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,599 that fools a lot of Western observers. Once you learn Chinese and you go 344 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,839 in and see what he's actually saying behind the scenes, what Chinese state media 345 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,960 is in that's not published in English, then if becomes clearer what these authoritarian 346 00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:47,960 leaders are all about, and that's ending the Western order, ending liberal democracy 347 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,440 worldwide. That's their goal. They want China to replace that position of the 348 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,440 United States, and they want China to be calling the shots. Often when 349 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,319 she Jinping is talking, as he spoke in San Francisco, I'll say certain 350 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,279 terms of phrase that are that sound friendly but actually aren't that friendly. And 351 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,880 those terms of phrase will be phrases such as, you know, we call 352 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:18,839 for a resolution to hostilities, or we call for a unified, a unified 353 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,839 and a peaceful South China. See we call for peace in the South China. 354 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:29,119 See we call for you know, we call for For example, they'll 355 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,599 often say we call for an end to the division of the Korean Peninsula and 356 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:38,920 an end to the armistice of nineteen fifty three that ended the Korean War. 357 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,200 Okay, so what does Shi Jinping really mean when he says these things. 358 00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:48,200 Well, when it comes to Korea, which is South Korea has a major 359 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:52,960 American presidence. South Korea is one of our greatest allies that had been through 360 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,720 us through thick and thin, through some of the hardest times in you know, 361 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,720 the history of the world. So many people died in the Korean War 362 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240 of nineteen fifty to nineteen fifty three, and the US has been right there 363 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:08,039 with them. What Chi Jinping means is that if we end the armistice, 364 00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:11,960 we end the Korean War. The Korean War is still going on. But 365 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:18,359 what he's saying is that the Korean Peninsula should be united under North Korean rule. 366 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,400 What he's saying is that North Korea should have the right to call the 367 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,839 shots over the Korean Peninsula and maybe form a confederation with South Korea that will 368 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:32,359 eventually involve, you know, having North Korean leaders have a say over South 369 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,720 Korea's democratic affairs. He's not saying that he wants actual peace on the Korean 370 00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:44,720 Peninsula. He's saying that a stable authoritarian regime that's loyal to China is much 371 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:51,160 better than a democratic, wavering regime that tends to side with the US when 372 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,720 it comes to military and national security. And there are all kinds of examples 373 00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,440 of this. I mean, it's not only you know, the problems on 374 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,640 the Korean Ensula, it's not only the South China Sea. But even when 375 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,720 it comes to you know, what happens in America. You know, the 376 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,480 Chinese state media will often comment on our own domestic politics. So you know, 377 00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,079 there will be like after the George Floyd protests or you know what's happened 378 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:19,400 in recent years with American culture wars. The CCP will come in with its 379 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,759 state media and we'll say, look at how bad things are in America. 380 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:29,079 But they'll often say, if only the American people would be more like China, 381 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000 would realize the wisdom of our ways, the wisdom of the CCP, 382 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,640 the American democracy would not have to deal with all this chaos with the you 383 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,279 know, the right right of yeah. Like so that the rise of these 384 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,920 leftist movements and the rise of these you know, these political movements, it's 385 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,200 it's all a result of the American system, and they need to understand what 386 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,960 you know, what pieces and harmony is. That's how they portray themselves. 387 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,640 Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps 388 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,240 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 389 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,920 Even if you got to raise last year, you're still going backwards. Prices 390 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,720 have come down, but they are not lower than they were last year. 391 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:17,480 If you hear that violent crime is down six percent, it's still twenty five 392 00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:21,039 percent higher than it wasn't twenty nineteen. Don't get hit by the spin zone. 393 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:22,720 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you 394 00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:26,720 financially. Be informed. Check out the Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 395 00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:33,079 Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You 396 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:37,839 know. Also, a lot of people have recently been dismissive of China's potential 397 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:44,519 as an aggressor, or maybe their strength as an aggressor, because of internal 398 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:47,799 problems with the Chinese economy. I mean, obviously real estate is a huge 399 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:51,359 part of that puzzle. But as somebody who follows this much more closely than 400 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,960 I do, Jeff, what's your read on how the a the state of 401 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,799 the Chinese economy and b how that might be affecting their geopolitical strength and stature. 402 00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:06,799 That's a good question. So one of the problems with the Chinese economy 403 00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:09,240 is that we actually don't know a lot about it because even though the CCP 404 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,480 does publish economic data, it's not clear how much of it is accurate, 405 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:17,880 and there are lots of you know, questionable numbers in there. So like, 406 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,079 for example, I think one of the great examples is education levels in 407 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,200 China. That's like one of the basic benchmarks for any country. We actually 408 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,720 don't really know what China's education system is truly like, and you know, 409 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:34,960 how many people are going through and getting actual, you know, highly skilled 410 00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:38,680 educations versus getting a paper mill diploma or certificate. So there, you know, 411 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,079 there are potentially problems in the workforce in China, potentially you know, 412 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,359 problems involving companies masking their debts. We don't know how much corporate debt really 413 00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:52,799 exists in China because state owned companies, by the way, every a lot 414 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,319 of these companies in China are state owned, and so they have the bureaucratic 415 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,480 cover to you know, to move around funds and to hide their debts and 416 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:05,079 to hide bad assets and so forth. We don't know how much corporate debt 417 00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:09,720 they really have because they engage in practices of shuffling debt to other state on 418 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,359 enterprises in exchange for favors. And you know, this shuffling happens for years 419 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:19,400 and years. It just masks debt, and then we don't really we can't 420 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,680 see the extent of the problem. We can really only estimate it. So 421 00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:29,960 there are huge weaknesses in the Chinese political systems that culminate in this kind of 422 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:35,799 economic problem that's happening. That the real estate sector has been overheating. There 423 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:38,880 has been a building spree over the last thirty years. I mean, China 424 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,359 was a booming economy with a booming population. The one child policy, so 425 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,799 the Chinese policy of having you know, each family being only limited to one 426 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,519 child has now damaged that boom because what it means is the population is starting 427 00:33:55,519 --> 00:34:00,400 to shrink. There are now going to be more elderly people than there will 428 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,960 be young people replacing them, and that is a certain depth for a booming 429 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:09,599 economy. So there are all kinds of these macro issues, these bigger picture 430 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:15,400 problems that now exist in China that people were not paying attention to back when 431 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:21,440 China was on the rise, back when it was becoming what is becoming, 432 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,440 a lot of people, you know, these China analysts and watchers, economists 433 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:31,280 and political economists, they were observing Chinese data and observing China's successes, and 434 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,320 I think putting the car, putting the cart before the horse. They were 435 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,880 trying to make the case that because China is so successful economically, it's because 436 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,000 of X, Y and Z, and they would write the narrative in reverse 437 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:49,960 and then find the sources of that success. But what we're seeing now is 438 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,920 that these same sources of the success are also the sources of the downfall, 439 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,559 or, as the old saying goes, in the beginning is the end. 440 00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:02,800 I think that's what we're seeing right now with the Chinese economy. That's so 441 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,119 interesting. And I actually I wanted to ask even about the name of the 442 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:09,039 Tech Integrity Project. I really like the name of that. I really like 443 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:14,760 the name of the group, because there's, you know, an important aspect 444 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,239 of the question of tech, the question of integrity, putting them both together 445 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,920 and particularly in the direction of China, Can you tell us us about what 446 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,320 void you're hoping to fill and what everything you hope to accomplish is through the 447 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:31,880 Tech Integrity Project in the future Core. So you know, regular Americans are 448 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:37,920 more and more concerned about the lack of integrity and their technology. Americans want 449 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,400 privacy, they want security. They want to be sure that, you know, 450 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:45,800 big tech companies are not snooping up their data. They want to be 451 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,559 sure that they are not in fact products. That's one of the big problems 452 00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:55,079 right now in the American tech ecosystem. The consumer of the smartphone, the 453 00:35:55,119 --> 00:36:00,320 person using the computer, they have become the product because their data is so 454 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,320 valuable and it's being sold off to god knows who. I mean, we 455 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,880 don't even know who's consuming a lot of this data that's floating around out there 456 00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:12,800 in the ether sphere. You know that you can learn so much about any 457 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,639 private person just by having access to that data from data brokers. We're focusing 458 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:23,760 on China because we think that China is really the major threat. So the 459 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:30,800 fact that American companies would play games with the privacy and security of Americans data 460 00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:37,320 by working with the Chinese Communist Party and working with major Chinese companies is really 461 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,320 a red flag. It means that they have given up their integrity because they 462 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,719 no longer stand with American democracy. These are American companies that should side with 463 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:52,880 American values, and instead they're compromising their values and even compromising the security of 464 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,519 their own American consumers to please the Chinese Communist Party and to ensure that they 465 00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:04,639 continue to have market access to the CCP. This needs to be a campaign 466 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,360 issue. There has been a lot of progress over the years in separating American 467 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:15,719 companies from from the CCP aligned interests, but so much more needs to be 468 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,679 done. I mean, we're only at the start of this, and we 469 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:23,880 really want to get Republican candidates on board and sign our pledge, which calls 470 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:32,800 for them to find ways to not to not work in ways that will counteract 471 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,960 American democracy and American national security. We need to find more ways to separate 472 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:45,239 these American operations from China and to ensure that our data here is safe and 473 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:51,039 that our own American national security is safe. I can give a lot of 474 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,119 examples, like specific examples that we should be worried about, but also, 475 00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:58,039 you know, I want to be mindful of not talking to you. Watch 476 00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:00,000 I'll give it fo you. Oh no, I mean, I was just 477 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:05,679 one question, is basically just like how you know, when we saw that 478 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:12,679 awful bipartisan bill on TikTok you such an important issue and such a questionable bill. 479 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:19,559 Is that a difficulty in sort of ensuring that this is targeted and precise 480 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,320 and not maybe exploited by you know, the the kind of blob so to 481 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:30,559 speak, in order to you know, advance their own maybe ultra hawkish perspectives 482 00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:35,880 and their benefactors perspectives whatever it is. Uh. But also there's such a 483 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,639 need in the space for you know, somewhat real hawkishness. I just imagine 484 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:45,519 that that's you know, part of the problem here too. Well. Yeah, 485 00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:49,239 so there there is a lot of hawkishness in DC right now. And 486 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,960 you know, as you called it, the blog, the foreign policy blog 487 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:54,519 that who was it who pointed that term? Originally I think it was, 488 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,719 uh, it was it was one of the Obama administration national security the advisors 489 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:07,320 and you know Ben Roads. Yeah, the blog that this blog that goes 490 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:13,000 around DC to government offices trying to keep themselves employed by putting in place, 491 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:15,280 you know, their own policies and their own ideas, even if those ideas 492 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,719 don't really fit with the needs of the American nation. That's what he was 493 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,639 getting at. So yeah, I agree. You know, we don't need 494 00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:27,840 a sledgehammer here. We need something more confined and focus. We don't need 495 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,639 to go around smashing hammers and destroying everything that might be related to China in 496 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:37,440 some way. But we do need to worry about the ways that specific American 497 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:44,760 companies are working directly in China in ways that are counteracting the American national interests. 498 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,599 Like ultimately, any American company, just by nature of having the flag 499 00:39:49,639 --> 00:39:54,840 of the United States, really needs to think about the American national interests and 500 00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:02,079 American democracy and American consumers. With citizenship comes responsibilities. It's not all about 501 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:08,280 rights. These companies need to see that they have responsibilities to the American Republic. 502 00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:14,719 That's what we're trying to get across specific examples. I've done a lot 503 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:21,679 of work over the years documenting Microsoft a very egregious actor in China. Microsoft 504 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:27,760 has built the AI Laboratory Microsoft Research Asia that train many of the technologists who 505 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,079 went on to start these companies that are now sanctioned by the US and by 506 00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:36,119 the EU. These are companies that were involved in creating much of the facial 507 00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:42,480 recognition voice recognition, the AI, the advanced semiconductors, of all these kinds 508 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,519 of technologies that are being used to create a surveillance state, that have been 509 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:51,679 used to oppress people around the world and to curtail democracy around the world. 510 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:58,800 I mean, there's so much here that a company like Microsoft should be responsible 511 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,280 for and does have blood on its hands for. But this has not been 512 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:07,440 addressed because these companies simply say like, look, I mean, we're just 513 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,960 following the market. We're following the need for you to make a profit. 514 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,280 We have to please our shareholders, and our shareholders want us to be in 515 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,159 China because China has been a growing market. China has a lot of consumers. 516 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,599 It's one point two billion people who could be using Windows, and so 517 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:30,400 we would rather preserve market access by compromising the principles of American democracy back at 518 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,039 home. Yeah, it's just crazy to think about. But I'm really eager 519 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,239 to follow all of your work at the Tech Integrity Project. Jeff Kane again 520 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,239 the policy director over the Tech Integrity Project. You can learn more at Tech 521 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,679 Integrityproject dot org. Jeff, thank you so much for coming back on the 522 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:49,920 show. Thanks for having me. Emily. Of course you have been listening 523 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,159 to another edition of The Federalist, or a radio hour. I'm Emili Kiashinsky, 524 00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:54,880 culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 525 00:41:55,119 --> 00:42:07,480 Until then, he lover's a freedom and anxious for the fray the old mo