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Hey, what's up, and welcome
back to another episode of the Straight Shooter

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Recruiter podcast. I'm your host,
Emily Durham. I have been in a

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talent acquisition space for over seven stinking
years. I've been featured in BBC and

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as of today when I'm recording this, I've officially launched my first column with

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Canadian Business Magazine, where I am
writing a monthly column answering reader questions on

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all things careers. So super excited
about that. I will say mood is

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still not fantastic. Meta just announced
sister second or third round of layoffs.

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I want to say it's their second
round and they laid off ten thousand people

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today, an additional ten thousand because
their last round of layoffs, which I

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think was in September of twenty twenty
two, was eleven thousand people. Just

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for some perspective and for some context, about a year and a half to

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two years ago, when Meta went
through a massive period of growth with recruiting,

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they actually hired twenty two thousand people, which means they had an additional

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twenty two thousand in heads or head
count like bodies in seats essentially than they

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did three years ago. Great news
for them. We love growth, we

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love sustainability, blah blah blah.
When they hired that many people, they

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basically admitted that they created too many
layers of management, so that work became

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really unproductive and it basically just slowed
the whole organization down. And that is

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the reason they justified these layoffs was
that things were moving too slowly and they

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needed to reprioritize. And I guess
the reason I feel so rattled by this

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because I know a lot of companies
are being impacted by layoffs and a lot

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of people have been impacted over the
last couple of years. I actually think

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there's been over one hundred thousand people
laid off in North America in the last

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year, which is absolutely devastating.
But I think what really gets me about

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this one is the fact that they
basically made this out of like a poor

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structural decision. They made really bad
decisions around how they would structure their business,

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and it was a decision. I
think That's what I'm really hung up

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on is this was a conscious decision
on how to structure the business. And

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wouldn't anybody who is in this world
know that adding more layers of management,

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especially at a tech company is obviously
not going to help. Like what did

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you think was going to happen here? Like what was your expectation here?

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I just I don't understand. And
then you do all of this, all

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of this crazy hiring, You make
these decisions to add more layers to your

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company, and then a year later
you go, whoops, I guess it

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doesn't work. Let's just lay off
ten thousand people. Like I just I

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don't understand all to say, like
a bit of a rant to start this

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episode off with, but my heart
is beyond going out to everyone who was

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impacted by a layoff, not just
at Meta but anywhere, because it makes

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things just extra stressful. Looking for
work is hard. Looking for work under

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circumstances like this in this environment way
harder, just so much harder. Anyways,

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I go went into such a wormhole
reading about this Facebook. I can't.

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I have to stop saying facebooks.
I know Meta is more than Facebook,

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but forgive me, we'll let it
slide. I'm rattled. I just

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was reading so much about why they
did this, the how, the reasoning.

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Because sometimes layoffs happen because of finances, this that or the other.

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Y'all actually just made bad business decisions
and are punishing the people you hired for

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that, and it just freaking repulses
me. But how are you, guys,

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how are you doing? Hopefully that
wasn't too negative of a note to

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start off with, but it's fresh
on my mind and it's fresh on my

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heart, and just yeah, really
needed to talk about that because holy crap,

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and a couple of my friends were
impacted. It's just a whole thing.

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But today I do want to focus
on something other than layoffs, because

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I do have a lot of content
on layoffs specifically, but I do want

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to spend a little bit of time
really helping with a pretty key decision that

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helped drive my career and helped kind
of sway my career and I actually get

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asked this a lot in my comments, especially in my DMS on Instagram is

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what matters more education or experience,
So I definitely want to spend a little

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bit of time talking about that,
and then, as usual, I will

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be answering your burning, burning questions
at the end of this episode. So

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if you want yours answered, Hello, you can always click the link in

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this description and send it on in
for a chance for me to answer your

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questions. Okay, let's get into
it, shall we. Before people started

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asking what comes first, the chicken
or the egg, I'm pretty sure they

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started asking what matters more education or
work experience. And I have a lot

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of mixed opinions. I've also gotten
a lot of expert advice on this because

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in my own journey, in my
own career, I actually almost went back

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to school. So, as you
know, I studied human resources. I

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went to York University and that was
an undergraduate degree, and after that I

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really wanted to get into law.
And I was kind of on the fence

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about going directly into law school.
Maybe I'd consider a master's. I was

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just kind of weighing out my options, but I was ninety percent sure I

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was going to pursue some kind of
higher education. I also just generally really

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like school, so it didn't really
feel like work to me. I love

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learning, I love the school environment. And I also just mentally didn't feel

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ready to be an adult in the
workforce, because in my mind, the

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second you start a full time job, you're an adult, you know what.

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I'm twenty seven now, been in
the workforce for seven years. Let

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me tell you, you never actually
feel like an adult. But that's neither

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here nor there. We're just going
to let nineteen year old me slide.

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So at that period in my life, I was really on the fence about

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if I should or shouldn't pursue higher
education. And I met with so many

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people. I met with professors,
my family, like friends, mentors.

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I just asked everybody what their opinion
was, and there were a lot of

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different opinions. And I don't want
you to get confused and do the same

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thing where you're like, oh my
god, what's the right path for me?

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I'm basically just going to tell you
in summary what all of the good

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advice was, without you having to
contact everybody in their cousin. Almost every

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single person I spoke to asked me
the exact same question. It's a question

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I really want you to ask yourself
as well. What is my return on

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investment here? Yeah, So if
you're going to continue your education and go

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get your masters, go pursue whatever
it might be, how long is it

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going to take you to make back
the money that you have spent on this

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higher degree of education? So if
your MBA is one hundred and ten thousand

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dollars, which I'm literally throwing up
thinking about that. That's so expensive.

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How long is it going to take
for you to match that back and not

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just make it in your salary,
but like actually be able to pay that

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back Because your school debt is one
more thing holding you back from homeownership,

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from travel, from investing, for
making your money work for you. So

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if you're not going to be able
to pay that off in a relatively short

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period of time, that's probably a
sign you're not getting your return on investment.

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Because if that degree was really going
to propel your career to the next

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level, shouldn't you be financially a
little bit more stable and able to pay

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it back a little bit quicker.
I know that's not always the case.

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For example, the first couple of
years of you being an articling student,

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after finishing your law programs and your
law schooling, you're not going to make

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a crazy amount of money. But
in ten years, oh mama, you're

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going to make money with a capital
M, so you are going to make

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it back. I think if you're
on the fence, the first thing you

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need to do is be realistic from
a numbers perspective and ask yourself, Okay,

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how much is this school and going
to cost me, and how much

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do I realistically project that I'm going
to make back and the next five to

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set in years? Okay, hands
down. Next thing you're for sure going

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to ask yourself is what's the return
on investment in terms of my career trajectory?

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Basically, what you need to think
about is how likely is it that

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you're going to get promoted faster and
move up on the career ladder because you

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have your masters or your MBA,
whatever your degree is. There's not a

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lot of industries where I actually think
it's going to make a difference. I'm

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kind of giving you a spoiler on
my personal opinions, but yes, and

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finance, yes, and consulting.
Having an MBA it's borderline critical, like

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that's how you get to the director
level and above. And I will talk

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about how to do that without actually
paying any money in just a second.

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But every other industry, I'd be
hard pressed to find a company where it's

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like, oh yeah, sorry,
you can't be senior manager because you don't

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have your masters. That's just not
common. It definitely was fifteen years ago,

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but that's really not how the world
works anymore. That's not really how

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the gig economy that we operate in
works. It's not a thing like that's

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just not how people operate anymore.
So unless you think it's going to propel

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your career and you're going to make
the money back, I would highly recommend

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you listen to this next thing I'm
about to tell you. Okay, I'm

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definitely going to tell you my personal
opinions on this in just a second,

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and ultimately i'll tell you what I
decided to do for myself. But if

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you're on the fence about whether or
not you should be going back to school

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or if you should just jump right
into the workforce after school or go get

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your master's, I want you to
make a pros and cons list. And

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I literally tell people to do this
when it comes to dating, Like if

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you're on the fence about your partner, make a list of all of the

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pros and all of the cons and
see which weighs out the other. It's

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kind of the same thing. This
is a massive life decision, this is

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a massive financial undertaking. You need
to be very strategic and deliberate. This

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is not the kind of decision you
take just because you feel like doing something

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or you want to do something,
you also want to make sure it's not

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an ego driven decision, which ultimately
I kind of realized was a little bit

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influencing me. I just wanted to
be able to say I had a master's.

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That's not a great reason to have
a master's in my humble personal opinion.

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If it was free, maybe yeah, but with the price it currently

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is, me thinks the hell not. So just be honest with yourself.

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Make a pros and cons list on
my personal list, because yes, I

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actually did make one. My pros
were that it would be a proud moment

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for me aka ego booster. Love
it for my ego, love it for

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myself. I also thought that it
would be great to kickstart my career and

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that it would show I have an
additional level of academic experience might help me

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stand out. Other than that,
I genuinely could not think of anything other

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than the fact that I like school
and I didn't feel like working yet.

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So that was my pros list.
My cons list was that I don't know

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where I thought I was getting this
money from. Your girl was not made

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of money. Your girl is still
not made of money. I don't know

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where I thought I was about to
go fork out one hundred K for a

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master's degree like that was just not
going to happen. I also was concerned

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about how much this would impact my
ability to get into the workforce, because

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I didn't know if people would value
experience more than education. I did have

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a few other cons in there,
just including my stress level, my anxiety

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level, probably having to move away
from home and where I was currently living

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because the schools I wanted to go
to were not local. There was just

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a lot of things that most of
which boiled down to it financially just not

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being a great call for me.
And let me tell you why not getting

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my masters was probably the best decision
I have ever made in my entire career.

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This is also probably going to answer
your question of which of the two

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is more valuable, experience or education. Everyone's situation is different. You need

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to do what makes you feel great
in your career, what's important to you.

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For me, personally, it was
not the right call financially, but

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let me tell you why else.
It was kind of a blessing that I

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decided not to move forward. I
have learned in my seven year career as

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a recruiter that most employers care more
about your work experience than they care about

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your education. After you land your
first full time job, I promise nobody

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gives a shit what your GPA is. Nobody cares. I don't care if

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your degree was summa cum laude.
I don't care if it was honors.

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I don't care if you just barely
scraped by once you get that piece of

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paper. In ninety percent of the
industries that we operate and work in North

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America, it is irrelevant now having
a master's or an MBA. All of

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those things are amazing, amazing qualifications. Trust me, they are fantastic,

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and later in your career that can
be the reason you do or don't get

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promoted. But in the first five
to ten years of your career, it

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is not going to make that much
of a difference. Eighty percent of the

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time, especially if you're focusing on
breaking into an industry or starting your career.

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Most employers want you to have hands
on work experience. And if you

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do that, if you commit to
landing the job after you graduate without going

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back to school, and you work
at a company that has decent benefits,

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basically any bank, government or like
mid size and above organization. They usually

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have programs that will help subsidize your
education, meaning they will pay for a

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portion of your degree, that master's
degree, or that MBA as long as

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you choose to work there during your
education, and usually they make you sign

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something to say, hey, you've
got to work with us for another two

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years after you complete it. It
is as simple as that. You don't

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have to pay for your higher education. And getting higher education on yourself,

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not only financially, can be very
stressful and a very heavy burden to carry.

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But if you choose to go the
academic rout over experience, you're missing

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out on what is the most valuable
currency in today's job market, which is

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hands on experience. Okay, your
questions this week are ten out of ten

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juicy, So I'm just going to
jump right into it. Dear Emily,

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How can I tell if I'm actually
going to be promoted or if I'm getting

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used? Okay, let's jump in
for context. I'm in retail, I'm

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working on getting promoted to a leadership
position, and I have been at the

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company for five years in July.
Congrats, that is fantastic. You've been

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working on trying to get promoted since
twenty twenty. Holy smokes, Okay,

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it's been three years. Also,
can you tell him? Reading this for

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the first time, I feel like
I'm live reacting with you on FaceTime.

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I was told about a year and
a half ago that my interest in being

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promoted was being taken into account and
that I was put into the pipeline and

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a plan was drafted and I was
put into a development plan. Fantastic.

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This development plan has just been me
being taken out of the team I usually

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work on and being put into other
departments and taking on those responsibilities. I've

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been told to be patient, and
they're putting me where I'm needed right now

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until certain changes are implemented in this
store in the spring. What do I

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do? Oh my gosh, Okay, lots to unpack. First of all,

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congrats on five years. That's fantastic. Twenty twenties a long time.

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And let me tell you my immediate
reaction to this. Like I said,

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I don't read these before because I
want my honest feedback to be shining through.

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I do think it's a red flag. And here's why. You have

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been asking for a promotion for almost
three years. You've been asking for a

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promotion since twenty twenty. That is
a long time. We went through a

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whole ass pandemic, okay, in
the last three years, and they can't

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what promote you. I also think
it's a little bit sketchy that their development

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plan is basically free labor, because
it sounds like what they're doing is taking

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you from a department you're good at
and putting you in other departments so you

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can learn and help out in YadA
YadA, basically giving you more work without

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a new title and without new pay. And if this was six months or

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a year, or even a year
and a half, I probably wouldn't batten

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eye. I'd be like, you
know what, it's good. You kind

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of need to get that diverse experience
in order to be a leader, especially

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in the retail space. Three years
is what I'm hung up on. Something

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about that is just a little suspicious. I don't really like that that's not

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adding up to me. So I
don't like that they're telling you to be

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patient. I don't like that your
development plan really hasn't changed in three years.

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I can't tell you for certain if
you are or are not going to

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be promoted, but what I will
say is I do think they're throwing you

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for a loop. I would book
a meeting with this manager or whoever the

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person is you speak to and say, hey, thanks for all of these

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growth opportunities. It's been about three
years. Is it possible for me to

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get some clear timelines on when we're
looking at my promotion or if there are

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specific skills I'm still not demonstrating so
I can close those gaps in advance.

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Basically, I think you need to
very very clearly have them outline what the

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next steps are. Otherwise you're straight
up going to work at this company forever

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and nothing is going to change.
Dear Emily, I have had some really

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bad issues with my manager being mean
and rude and belittling me constantly, to

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the point where he literally ignores me
when I send emails or chats and when

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I have questions. I brought it
up to my director and he basically said,

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sorry, he shouldn't be treating you
this way, and said, are

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you willing to give him another chance
if he promises to never be rude again?

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And my response was, well,
if sweeping it under the rug is

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the only solution, that I guess, I have no choice do I honestly

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sleigh. I love that response.
Since then I was talking to my boss

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and he admitted that he was being
a dick and apologize and said thank you

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for staying because he knows that I
could have left this job. And now

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it's all happening again. I've only
been working here for a little under two

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years, and I can't take it
anymore. I'm seeing a therapist, psychiatrist.

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I'm on medication for my depression and
anxiety and sleeping pills just to say

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somewhat calm. Help. What do
I do? Oh my god, Oh

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my god. First of all,
wow, I'm like, I'm literally speechless,

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and you know I'm never speechless.
I always talk. I'm so sorry.

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This is something that you're experiencing.
This is disgusting, This is unacceptable.

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This is not normal. It is
normal sometimes for work to stress us

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out. But can I tell you
something. What you are experiencing is bullying.

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That is bullying in the workforce from
the worst possible person it could come

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from, which is your manager and
your manager's manager. My biggest issue with

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this whole thing. I'll get to
your manager in a second. Trust me,

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they are not coming out unscathed.
It's your director. How dare your

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director respond to you raising a concern
saying oh, I'll get him to stop.

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Please, don't worry about it.
I'll get him to stop, or

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can we just deal with it?
Excuse me? The manager is an asshole,

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but the director is complicit, which
is basically saying, yeah, it's

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totally fine, I'm okay with how
this manager is reacting and how this manager

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is behaving. That for me is
the biggest red flag, because a good

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director or a good manager would have
said, I'm so sorry this is happening.

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This behavior is unacceptable. I'm going
to go meet with your manager,

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put them on a development plan.
They're going to get better, or they're

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going to get fired, because that
is the only appropriate response. So,

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firstly, shame on your piece of
shit director, Literally, that is a

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horrible person. Secondly, the fact
that your manager literally acknowledged that they're being

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an asshole. Pardon so you mean
to tell me you knew you were being

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an absolute piece of garbage, treating
me like crap, being disrespectful, being

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rude, setting me up to fail, and you were like, yeah,

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that's okay. That is unacceptable,
because that shows me it's a choice.

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The fact that he acknowledges he was
treating you poorly, and the fact that

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he's doing it again shows me it's
not an accident. It's not an off

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day. This is a strategic decision. You have two options here, and

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they both suck. I'm going to
be so honest with you. Number one,

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one hundred percent go to your HR
representative. And I want you to

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go to HR if that's an option, because they will protect you. Their

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job is to protect you, and
trust me, they're going to get heated

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when they hear this, because this
is unacceptable. If that's not an option,

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maybe you don't have like NHR rep
at your company or it's a small

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company. You need to report this
to the Human Rights Tribunal, and wherever

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you live, there's one for Ontario, there's one for different provinces, provinces

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or states. You need to report
this because this is bullying and if they're

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not going to make it right,
the government will, and at Labor Board

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most certainly will. So that's your
first thing you're going to do as this

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is happening. I want you to
apply for other jobs. I know it's

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a shitty market and nobody wants to
be applying for other jobs. Right now,

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But I do have some bad news. The fact that this toxic behavior

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goes all the way up to the
director level tells me everyone at this company

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is a piece of shit. So
even if it gets better with this manager,

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maybe they improve or maybe they move
you to a new team, at

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its core, this company is toxic. I'm so sorry you are going through

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this. You might find resolve in
speaking with HR, but my gut is

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telling you, my friend, you
need to hashtag quit your job. Hey,

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Emily, can I back out from
my job two days before I'm supposed

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to start? Okay, technically yes
you can, But you can also punch

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your mom in the face, which
is the wrong thing to do. So

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here's my personal stance. If this
happens, there is a very high likelihood

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that recruiter places you on a blacklist, which means they're never going to put

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you forward for another position at that
company, and potentially they're going to remember

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your name and avoid you when they
work at other companies in the future.

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So it is a really, really
bad reflection of your personal brand. With

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that being said, the entire point
of your career is to be selfish and

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to make the right decisions for you. If your dream job just popped up

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and you now have the opportunity to
take it on, absolutely go for it.

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Make sure you call the company you
explain the situation. Explain to them

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that it's your job. However,
if it's just about money and this other

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company is willing to offer you more, go back to the company that initially

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gave you an offer and say,
hey, I just received an offer for

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this amount. What can you do
to match it? And then at least

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you're giving them the opportunity to step
up to the plate. All to say,

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it's not impossible. It's not the
worst thing in the world. There's

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way wor that you could do,
Like, don't stress yourself out. Is

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it a great practice? I'm going
to be so real with you. Probably

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not. I would avoid it if
possible, But you gotta do what's right

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for you. Oh my gosh,
there are so many questions this week.

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I could literally spend a lifetime going
through them. But that's what next week

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00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.000
is for. So just make sure
that you're leaving a rating and review for

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00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:26.079
this show. It genuinely helps me
grow. It helps me get sponsorships so

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00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.319
I can do this all the time. That's kind of the goal and if

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00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.079
you want more content for me,
I post two YouTube videos a week,

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00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.720
every single week, as well as
on TikTok and Instagram, so you can

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00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.559
check me out there. But thank
you so much for hanging out with me,

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and I'll talk to you next Sunday