1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:48,039 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to my never Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:52,840 now I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by doctor Anne Burgess and Stephen Constantine, 11 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,799 authors of a Killer by Design, Murderers, Mine Hunters, and My 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,479 Quest to Decipher the Criminal Mind. And Stephen, thank you for joining us 13 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:03,840 in Mind of a Murder today. Thanks for having us, Yes for happy 14 00:01:03,879 --> 00:01:07,599 to be here. Let's go ahead and start by having you both tell our 15 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,120 listeners about your personal and professional backgrounds and so, and I'll start with you 16 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,760 and then we'll flip it right to Stephen. Sure, okay. I am 17 00:01:17,159 --> 00:01:22,519 a psychiatric nurse. I have my doctorate in nursing science. I've been an 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,400 academic most of my life and currently at Boston College at the Canal School of 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:32,760 Nursing. I also have a small private practice. Much of my work is 20 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:37,719 teaching or doing research. I've been at Boston College, you know. I 21 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:42,439 was at Boston College in the seventies when the project with the rape started with 22 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:47,719 Linda Homestrom, then went to University of Pennsylvania, and then have come back 23 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,319 to Boston College. Stephen, how about you? Sure? Yeah, So 24 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:55,519 I do marketing and communications here at Boston College, which is how doctor Burgess 25 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,280 and I met. And my background of writing as I have an MFA in 26 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:02,200 writing and nurture from Bennington College and Vermont. I think that leads us to 27 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,120 the natural question. So how do the two of you end up as writing 28 00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:12,520 partners? The most obvious thing is we both are at Boston College and the 29 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,919 Canal School of Nursing. So we're housed, if you will, Our offices 30 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,199 are in the same building. In fact, I'm one floor above Stephen. 31 00:02:20,479 --> 00:02:24,360 Stephen had just arrived a little bit. I think I'll let him give you 32 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,039 more of the timeline. But he when he came and he started right off 33 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:34,199 really getting into the communications and so forth, and actually set up a mind 34 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,400 Hunter had just come out. This was about in the twenty eighteen and mine 35 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:42,439 Hunter had just come out, and we have invited John Douglas, who of 36 00:02:42,479 --> 00:02:46,360 course is the author of mind Hunter, to come. And I think in 37 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,759 the context of having to work on that project and get it ready for a 38 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:55,080 very large audience. It's a very large student audience that we had that we 39 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:59,680 really talked more about the cases that I had done and some of my work. 40 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:04,680 Ever, so I'll let to Stephen fill in there. Yeah. Yeah, 41 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,080 it was great. We met working on that mine Hunter event that we 42 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,120 held here at Boston College. Douglas was going to come up have a conversation 43 00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:15,360 with doctor Burgess here in front of students and staff and alum to talk about 44 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:21,240 what it was really like behind the scenes at the FBI developing criminal profiling and 45 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,520 working on some of these cases. But as we were prepping for that event, 46 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:28,560 I spent a lot of time talking to doctor Burgess to learn about her 47 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,240 experiences. I was just amazed by it, her perspective, the work she 48 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:38,520 was doing behind the scenes to take the data and to turn it into to 49 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:43,560 take all this really disparate content and data and to analyze it and to turn 50 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:49,159 it into a structured methodology for criminal profiling was really interesting, really compelling. 51 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:53,400 It's nothing that had been shared before. So I started gently prodding her to 52 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,680 get her story out into the world, and she was interested in doing it 53 00:03:55,759 --> 00:04:00,439 in maybe a form of teaching or some online model nuals for students to learn 54 00:04:00,479 --> 00:04:04,240 from, because that's always been very important for her, is using her experience 55 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,479 to teach others. But we eventually wrote a few test chapters together and settled 56 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,439 on the idea of a book, and it just took off pretty quickly from 57 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:15,920 there. Yeah. The other thing I'd add is it was originally way back 58 00:04:15,959 --> 00:04:20,759 in when we started with the FBI profilers, it was intended to be two 59 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:26,199 projects, one which we did complete, which was on the patterns of sexual 60 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,639 homicide, and that book did come out, but the second was on the 61 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,399 profiling, and it just I think what happened is so many of the agents 62 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:39,040 retired and I was moving on. I was at University of Pennsylvania, and 63 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,720 so all of the materials. Luckily I kept all of the materials we had 64 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:47,000 transcribed all of the meetings and the sessions where they would rate the cases, 65 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:53,680 so I had all of that, and luckily no rain or how sellers get 66 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,519 it was still pretty much intact. And that's what Stephen asked if you could 67 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,120 see some of it, and I think realized that there was a lot of 68 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:04,759 very important information that we could use from that. I have been a John 69 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:10,560 Douglas fan from way back, probably far too early. I started reading John 70 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,120 when I was maybe at fifteen or sixteen, probably way too early, but 71 00:05:14,199 --> 00:05:17,600 I knew that there had been a woman named Anne Burgess who worked on the 72 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,000 profiling project too, and I always wondered, why do we not have her 73 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:26,120 story yet? So when I saw your book in Barnes and Noball, like 74 00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:29,240 right as it came out, I did a little jump for joy in the 75 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,079 aisle. Very embarrassing of me to have done it, but I was so 76 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,040 excited because I was like, this is the missing piece of the puzzle. 77 00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:40,319 We finally get her story, and so thrilled. What was that seminar like 78 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:43,279 that you put together the two of you up in front of a group of 79 00:05:43,319 --> 00:05:45,560 students. That must have been amazing. I would have loved to have been 80 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:46,920 a fly on the wall for that. What was that like? Yeah, 81 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,920 it really was. And I think we had the questions. We had a 82 00:05:49,959 --> 00:05:55,120 moderator, which was I think very helpful to pitch the questions to us. 83 00:05:55,519 --> 00:06:00,279 John was his usual self, vintage John. I calm, and he would 84 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:03,560 tell some of the stories not so much get there but afterwards, because some 85 00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:08,040 of the stories are pretty intense, so we didn't want to scare away the 86 00:06:08,079 --> 00:06:13,279 audience. And then but John's always been In fact, I went back and 87 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,600 read the inscription that he had put in the book, and he says, 88 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:19,439 it's about time that you got your story out. I said, yeah, 89 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:25,360 I'm a slow writer, but than Kevins. I had Steven to help because 90 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,279 it's a very different style then I always used to. I had to do 91 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,120 academic writing, which is very dull and boring. I think just the facts, 92 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:35,720 and Steven was able to certainly make it become much more alive than I 93 00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:41,680 would have been able to do. You enjoy the writing process, and is 94 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,199 it help? Hate writing? I was wondrous. I hate writing, Yeah, 95 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:48,680 and yet I did fifteen textbooks before this, and I've certainly done a 96 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,439 couple hundred articles. You have to if you stay in academ you have to 97 00:06:53,519 --> 00:06:56,839 get tenure and all of that. But no, it's not easy. That's 98 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,399 why I was amazed that Steven seems to be able to just because that's his 99 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,079 interest and that's what he was trained for. So do you enjoy teaching men? 100 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,079 Flipping that around, because clearly you've been a professor for all of these 101 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,279 years, and I know your classes are sold out, fully enrolled and are 102 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:18,160 incredibly popular. Is that where you get more of your enjoyment in terms of 103 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,079 them and your storytelling. Yes, I come from a clinical base, and 104 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,560 so I feel that the best way to teach is through clinical examples. So 105 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,079 it was pretty natural to put the cases on it, and I was teaching 106 00:07:30,079 --> 00:07:34,399 the students as much for what the cases were about it as for prevention. 107 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:40,040 Because when you hear my husband's a pilot, and so he said that when 108 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:43,439 they sit around in the hangar, they tell all their war stories because there 109 00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:46,519 might just be something that they remember that gets them out of a tight situation. 110 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,720 That's the mentality that I had is to tell them so that they as 111 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,800 I said, they might not get in the situation or be able to get 112 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,759 out of it. By the way, this amazing event that you had a 113 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:03,759 couple of years ago with John, the two of you, I can't imagine 114 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,240 what a privilege that would be. Was it recorded, would anybody ever be 115 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,120 able to see it who wasn't there that night at Boston College. Yeah, 116 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,480 we have the recording. We can definitely forward it to you guys, and 117 00:08:13,639 --> 00:08:16,279 you can link to it. Yep. And would that be something that would 118 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:20,079 ever be shown publicly? Yeah. I think it's on YouTube or vimeo, 119 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,800 so failable. So yeah, we'd be happy to share that. Your audience 120 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,480 can check it out as well. He was great working with Anna's great, 121 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,360 She's fantastic. She's a great storyteller. Amazing experience. And then John is 122 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,360 very much a character. Him being on stage was a lot of fun and 123 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:41,360 just their dynamic was a lot of fun. So it's definitely worth watching for 124 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,279 sure. We've interviewed Mark Olshaker, who knows Kristen quite well, and he 125 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:50,039 has also been just a joy for us to be around. I'll let Kristen 126 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,080 tell you a little bit more about that. Yeah, it's hard to keep 127 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:56,519 up with John, he's always writing another book. He and Mark two coming 128 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:01,679 out or in the works. Yeah, I said, it's a very high 129 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,360 borrow. I said the seven. We've got to increase our productivity here a 130 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,000 bit. So, Stephen, is true crime something that you've always had an 131 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,679 interest in or did that develop when you started working with doctor Burgess? Yeah? 132 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,360 I think it definitely developed through doctor Burgess. It's not something that I 133 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:22,360 had a strong interest in before, and even so, it was definitely her 134 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,039 story that was more interesting to me than the true crime aspect. And I 135 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,840 think that's what separates her story from a lot of the agents is there's no 136 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,519 sensationalism. There's no had it gore or anything like that. And one of 137 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:37,360 the things she made clear to me very early on was it this is a 138 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,960 book that has to keep the victim front and center. I wanted to be 139 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:45,559 about the victim, and like she had spoken two moments ago, maybe people 140 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,200 can learn something from this if we keep it honest and truthful and with the 141 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:52,639 victim in mind. I like that approach. It seemed a little bit different, 142 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,600 it seemed very compassionate. So I was really interested in telling that story, 143 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:01,039 her story as opposed to worrying too much about the true aspect itself. 144 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,000 So it's five years to bring this book to fruition, is that right? 145 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,360 But maybe four? But yeah, it was definitely a long process. How 146 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,240 does your process work? And how did you find the time to do this, 147 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:20,440 because you clearly both have very busy schedules. COVID came yea, that 148 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:24,159 is true. Yeah, yeah, And so we had more time because for 149 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:30,039 one or two semesters we had to do the virtual teaching. There weren't students 150 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,399 around or anything, so we could just keep moving along. I know that 151 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:37,320 was one of the things. Maybe Stephen has another suggestion of how it went. 152 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,759 I think one of the things that was tricky to begin with was there, 153 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,480 like doctor Versus said, she's held on to all these archival materials from 154 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:52,240 her work with the BSU, So combing through that and figuring out which cases 155 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:58,200 we wanted to use to help tell the story of the evolution of criminal profiling, 156 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,440 it took a while to figure that out. So I think that was 157 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,279 a tricky part, is that there was just so much material to just figure 158 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:09,360 out what the real colonel of knowledge was. And then once we got going, 159 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,840 it was pretty quick back and forth for the first couple of months, 160 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,039 Doctor Burgh said her office was above mine, so she would just swing down. 161 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,399 We would chat about ideas, chat about case, and then we would 162 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:24,240 send emails of chapters back and forth and keep revising. And then once COVID 163 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,159 not having to worry about a commute and just seeming to have a little bit 164 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:30,159 more free time, we were really able to dive on in. And then 165 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:33,919 we found our agent who had some ideas of how to change things up, 166 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,720 and then she got as our editor, who had some ideas of how to 167 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:39,919 change things up. So there was a lot of people involved, a lot 168 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,600 of evolution to the process, so it tasts longer than you might expect. 169 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,440 Did you then shift over to working virtually with the two of you as well, 170 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,240 so that you were both working from remote locations. Yeah. And I 171 00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:56,720 wanted to ask you something. As the brother of a murder victim, my 172 00:11:56,759 --> 00:12:01,799 sister, Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Asky were murdered as part of the 173 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:05,559 Colonial Parkway murders, which has been an FBI case since day one. Now, 174 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,120 my experience is obviously not from inside the bureau. It's from outside the 175 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:16,240 bureau. But we find that the bureau is terrible about information sharing. I 176 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,080 was curious, now here you are. You're coming in and you're being brought 177 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,559 in. I think initially as a consultant, if I understood your history clearly 178 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:31,080 enough, how is it you still have all of the paperwork and your notes. 179 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,080 It wasn't there anything that the FBI said, Oh, no, this 180 00:12:33,159 --> 00:12:39,080 belongs to us. This is our work product from those studies that you did 181 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:43,840 in the analysis because it was a study and we had a small grant for 182 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,600 I had a team up in Boston that was taking the data and so it 183 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:52,480 was an that National Institute of Justice grant and we set it up. Your 184 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:58,360 cautions is very good. We were very concerned people couldn't get access to all 185 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,279 of these interviews and so forth. That's really how we handled it. So 186 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,200 did the work product belong to you then? As opposed to the Bureau, 187 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:13,200 because they were usually very big on control, they are very absolutely are, 188 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,159 Yeah they are. Did you have to get permission, for example, to 189 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,039 write the book or use any of the examples from the work that you had 190 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,679 done or was that clear enough in terms of authorship? If? Yeah, 191 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,960 And I think that's one of the advantages that was so far. It was 192 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:33,120 a good twenty thirty years ago. The first book we did, the sexual 193 00:13:33,159 --> 00:13:37,440 homicide book we did that had to go through there. They take thirty days 194 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,919 and somebody has to review it, etc. Etc. But this is what 195 00:13:41,039 --> 00:13:46,200 we didn't have to because it was not considered a bureau product. It was 196 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:50,360 considered it just wasn't I know. I had asked John about that, and 197 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:52,600 he didn't seem to think there was any need to at this point in time. 198 00:13:54,279 --> 00:13:56,519 One element along those lines that we did, they a lot of attention 199 00:13:56,519 --> 00:13:58,279 to you, and it was with the victims who were miners at the time. 200 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,240 We didn't make sure to make their names more ambiguous and to take those 201 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,799 out. So it's not to cause any part or challenges for the families. 202 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,639 I would just go say, I will say that some people did try to 203 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,679 get access to the interviews, but they just nobody could find them. With 204 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:18,759 these unreal to real tapes back in the day. I'm yeah, they're all 205 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:22,240 transcribed. Yeah. So then I also wanted to make sure that asked about 206 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,159 the crime Classification Manual. Can you talk a little bit about writing the crime 207 00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:30,559 Classification Manual? I think it's on third edition right now. Do you have 208 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,360 to go back and make changes and revisions to this or how does that work? 209 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,759 Yeah, that was an interesting book because we modeled it after the what's 210 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:43,159 called the DSM, the Diagnostic and syle Manual, which is the bible so 211 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,120 to speak, of the psychiatric group. And so we broke all the agents 212 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:52,360 up into groups and they would meet on the various crimes that we had. 213 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,480 We'd divided that if you've looked at it into homicide and rape and child and 214 00:14:56,879 --> 00:15:01,799 arson, the real important thing. Giving the examples we had to have, 215 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,840 again, we didn't get them from the agents. We wrote up cases, 216 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:09,000 but we really used our own write up of that for that. So that 217 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:16,440 was interesting because we really wanted to see if law enforcement could classify the crimes 218 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,720 because they didn't have any way of just talking about it like in the DSN, 219 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,759 what is schizophrenia or what is depression or something like that, and so 220 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,519 dividing it into the classifications was that we felt was a major step, and 221 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,159 it did. It was accepted by the agents. Now we're up. You're 222 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,039 right, we're up to the third edition. We haven't done anymore. I'm 223 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,440 not sure I've gone into a different area, So it would be up to 224 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,120 me. I don't know whether John's interested in redoing it, but I think 225 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:48,279 that's where we're at, so to speak. Were there arguments or intense discussions 226 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,840 behind the scenes, In other words, you had to make decisions about where 227 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,159 you were going to put things. And this was all incredibly innovative at the 228 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,240 time. Yes, and John and Bob Russ are forget Bob was a big 229 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,720 person involved in all of this, and they would be the overall supervisor, 230 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:08,879 so to speak, with these groups, to make sure that the characteristics and 231 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,720 the search warrant information and all that was as good as it could be. 232 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:18,919 Now, whether they got into arguments, it's always got into arguments. Let 233 00:16:18,919 --> 00:16:22,200 me tell you that, you've got a group of men that really have some 234 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,279 pretty high egos. So it's always been fun. I always thought it was 235 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,519 fun to see what they would argue over from a professional standpoint, from a 236 00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:33,759 law enforcement standpoint. Your question, I've never heard anyone call him Bob either. 237 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,759 In other words, Robert Wrestler is this Oh yeah, again, incredibly 238 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:44,240 prominent figure in this world. You know him well enough to call him Bob? 239 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,159 Yes. Oh. We worked hard on that and on the project. 240 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,679 We had meetings down of course, at Quanticode, but they would come up 241 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,600 and we meet in my house. We'd sit around the dining room table and 242 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,840 workout cases there, and they stayed at the house. The government wasn't so 243 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:04,960 good on giving out much money from their expenses, so we're on a shoe 244 00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:08,440 string. If you want to know, you'd save money by having them stay 245 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,319 at the house. Sure, yeah, then just we eat right through dinner 246 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,319 and keep working. They were very hard workers. Yes, did you have 247 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,319 any sense that you were making history? This unbelievable stuff? The team, 248 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,119 the group of people that worked on this thing, and you have to realize 249 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,559 they were on their own time, which I think was remarkable. They really 250 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,920 were on their own time. The at least Wrestler and Douglas certainly were on 251 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,279 their own time chronicle. Of course, they would come in and the others 252 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,000 would come in, The other profilers would come in, but it was John 253 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,160 and Bob that would come up and they'd come up to Boston City Hospitals where 254 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,720 we had our research groups. So they'd come over there and we'd looked at 255 00:17:47,759 --> 00:17:52,160 the data. That's really awesome. So then at this point, when you 256 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,200 set out to write your book with Steven, had you read Sean and Roy 257 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:02,720 Hazelwood and Bob Wrestler's books about the days with the BSU. Oh yeah, 258 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:04,720 I have all the all. They always would give me copies because we stayed. 259 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,039 Yeah, so we and I'd always call them there was a case and 260 00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:11,920 I'd want to know what I should get from them to tell the students they 261 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,079 loved it. It was And in fact, we're still in touch with several 262 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,960 of what I call the first generation profile or several from the second and third 263 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,799 generation. And that's important because they were trained by Bob and John and so 264 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,759 the ones that came after them are more current ones. Not having that training 265 00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:36,319 I think makes a difference. But Wrestler and Douglas were really experts. At 266 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:40,480 is uncanny how they could go to a front scene and figure it all out. 267 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:42,799 But yeah, Stephen, did you read all of this too in preparation 268 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,720 or did you want to set yourself apart from all of that subject matter a 269 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:49,960 little bit of both. One of the great things about working talk to verses 270 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,400 two is that she does maintain all these connections to a lot of these retired 271 00:18:53,440 --> 00:19:00,480 agents into people all over the law enforcement and FBI world. We've had conversations 272 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:03,079 with some of these people to learn a little bit more about their stories as 273 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:08,000 well, or they've presoomed into lecture at one of doctor Berg's classes. Definitely, 274 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,839 their input was very helpful, and doctor Burgess sent chapters out to them 275 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:15,279 as well to make sure everything was as accurate as possible, So that was 276 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:19,759 a great benefit. Absolutely. Did you find that your recollections and there's were 277 00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:23,519 fairly consistent or were there areas where you were like, I remember it like 278 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:26,640 this and John was like, actually know it was like this. Were there 279 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,799 ever areas where you argued about this is what actually happened. I wouldn't argue 280 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:33,279 because they were the ones that were there, and I can't remember. I 281 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:37,519 actually could say yes to your question because they would have. For example, 282 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:42,440 when they interviewed the Barry John Simonis, both the Ken Lanning and Roy Hazelwood. 283 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:47,240 Not Ken Lanning is still alive, and he gave me quite some insight 284 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:49,079 on that because it was only a twenty minute tape that they made at the 285 00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:52,720 end of eight hours of interview, so he had a yeah, he had 286 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,960 a lot of things to starch about it that didn't make it into the tape. 287 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,200 Their memories are great. I still Judd Ray, for example. They 288 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,000 all did really important things at that time, so I think your point about 289 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,640 they were making history. Judd Ray did one of the first cases on an 290 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:17,960 Alaska family murder where he was able to get come in as an expert to 291 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:22,079 talk about it. Not until that time the agents hadn't been serving as experts. 292 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,680 And I'm trying to think of Greg Cooper, who now runs a cold 293 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,319 case foundation and we're part of that. He's a fantastic profiler. You should 294 00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:36,440 get him on one of your times. He had the guy who was a 295 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:40,960 He had murdered two separate persons, and so he testified the first time and 296 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,799 they won because he was qualified as one of the first times the agent was 297 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,359 qualified. And then on the second one the guy said to him the defendants 298 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:53,279 said him, not you again coming into He said that right to Greg. 299 00:20:53,839 --> 00:20:59,119 So it was plenty. So they all had important roles to play in the 300 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,160 criminal justice system back in those signs. Because this is back in the nineties 301 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:06,359 when they were trying to get some of these serial coasts. All of the 302 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,720 cases in the book were from the thirty six we had looked at. We 303 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:14,559 had an original list I think of some eighty eighty or eighty two, and 304 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,759 we whittled it down to the thirty six that we thought we could get the 305 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:22,960 agent interviews with. So that's where so many of those cases are in mind 306 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:27,440 Hunter, and certainly in right Hazelwood's book and Wrestler's books. So it's interesting 307 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:33,359 to go back and read them after I've read through some of the profiling material 308 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,200 that we had, and so there is all and then if there's some conflict, 309 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,160 I have to go and call them. I have to call John a 310 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,559 lot on the site to see how his memory is on some of these cases, 311 00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:47,559 because it's going back what thirty years? How unusual was it? And 312 00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:52,519 for you as a woman to be working in that field, very unusual. 313 00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:57,640 I will say that people put off by it. Did they think that it 314 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,920 was weird that a woman, even a woman with your professional background, wasn't? 315 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,799 I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. Because my 316 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,960 field was victimology, and that's why they had invited me down. That was 317 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,440 not their area. Don't forget their investigators. So they're looking for the bad 318 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,880 guy as far as they were concerned the victim. Of course it was victim, 319 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,079 but they wouldn't pay much attention and so bringing in the whole victim aspect 320 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,359 turned their work into That became one of the first things if you read any 321 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,400 of their material, it's who's the victim, why is she there? What 322 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:38,319 led up to an etc. Etc. And so they start their profiling from 323 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,599 that standpoint of the victim, so being down there, and they knew about 324 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:48,440 my rape study, so it wasn't that I was in any way invading quote, 325 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,079 their territories, So there was no feeling of that. They might feel 326 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,759 that way with other consultants coming in, But it was because I could bring 327 00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:59,400 them something that they didn't have, and they respected that, and I think 328 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,640 that's why we all got along. So well, you're listening to Mind over 329 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:11,279 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 330 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:15,480 here at Mind over Murder. Stephen. Earlier, you were alluding to the 331 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:19,440 fact that you wanted the book to be very victim centric, and of course, 332 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,640 as people who are victim's advocates, and Bill being the brother of a 333 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,640 murder victim, we really appreciated the fact that it is so victim centric. 334 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,759 True crime is a genre where a lot of times there is too much focus 335 00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:34,400 on the killers and there is not enough on the victim. What would you 336 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:38,599 say, are the things that consumers of true crime need to be aware of 337 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:45,440 in order to honor the victims and not mythologize the killers and not bring their 338 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,839 bias in. I think that's the problem. So many times they try to 339 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,039 They don't want to identify with the victim. Nobody wants to be the victim, 340 00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:56,960 so they might say why was the victim doing this or why was the 341 00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:02,599 victim doing that? Rather than because the more they could deny that would be 342 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:06,000 any behavior that they would do made a difference. They wouldn't be able to 343 00:24:06,079 --> 00:24:11,920 understand the victim. So I think that's the biggest hurdle is to confront people's 344 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,160 bias. Might say, also those of the myths that are out there. 345 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:19,240 But if the victim is found because she was hitchhiking, say back in those 346 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,400 days, that was a big thing, they would blame her. There was 347 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,079 so much of the blame of the victim and not enough of who's the suspect. 348 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Being able to talk about the impact on the victim, we felt was 349 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:36,799 really important. This is also just that phenomenon of Hollywood lossing over stuff and 350 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:42,160 making everything into its most consumable and universally consumable form. You see these zerio 351 00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:47,759 killers who look charming on TV, who are handsome, who are real smooth 352 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:51,839 talkers and all this, and there's something almost identifiable about that, and I 353 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,000 think the barriers become a little bit thin. So that can be a bit 354 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,160 of an issue that people have to pay attention to as well. Yeah, 355 00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:00,839 I think you're sharing the victim stories and they're real people, their families were 356 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,880 affected. It's very traumatic. So instead of mythologizing the killer, but just 357 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,559 showing the victims side of the story as well as important. And with all 358 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:15,400 the work that you did, were you surprised at how this mythology began to 359 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,960 develop. The thing that Steven's talking about the charming serial killer. Some of 360 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:26,279 them are charming, but the myth is out there. Yeah, oh yeah, 361 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,160 we're write about that. One of the chapters of the Agents talking about 362 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,000 who's your favorite, say real killer, but they even have favorites, So 363 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,000 it's not just myth, it's reality that they become so fascinated with what these 364 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,000 killers do. How much of that is personality can be a factor if they're 365 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:48,000 psycho if they're psychopaths, they're going to be very charming. They're going to 366 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,599 try to con and they, I suggestfully do. That's what was good about 367 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,480 the agent going in and interviewing them. I think that is important to say, 368 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,480 because they I felt they really turned into being more victim or re ended, 369 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,079 so when they went in, they wouldn't know the case cold, so 370 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,519 that the inmate couldn't calm them, and they would confront them. I think 371 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:10,519 he even saw that on Netflix. There's a couple of cases I think with 372 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,319 Brudos Jerry Brutus where he had taken this picture and his picked his face was 373 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,759 right in the photograph and they confronted there. I remember that was one of 374 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,599 the good segments that they did. And they're going in as FBI agents carrying 375 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,359 the authority. I think the other thing is many of these guys we found 376 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,319 in the research had a missing father, the absent father, if you will. 377 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,640 So here these FBI agents that stand for authority, male authority so to 378 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,839 speak, coming in it was high point for them and they could feel some 379 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,279 status among the other inmates. I'm sure that was part of what they got 380 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,839 out of it. I remember a story from John where he was talking about 381 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:52,160 how Charles Manson got onto a chair but to give himself a little bit more 382 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:56,559 height over John. When John was interviewing how much established dominance sort of thing. 383 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,240 See, it sounds like you've watched Mine Hunter. Stephen, have you 384 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,759 watched Mine Hunter? Are you a fan? Yeah? I watched the first 385 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:06,559 season of it. I thought it was well done. They could have gone 386 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,680 a different route with the doctor person's character there, but the cases were really 387 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,559 well done. Yeah, we did want to ask specifically about that. I 388 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,640 Anaturv does play the character of doctor Wendy Carr. I know she is supposed 389 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,960 to be based on you. First of all, did Anaturv actually speak to 390 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,119 you about your work? Have you talked with her as she was preparing for 391 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,480 the role? No, no contact. And John had the same experience. 392 00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:33,319 Yeah, John had the same experience. He was amazed that Mark didn't talk 393 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,759 for some reason. Is a pincer. Whoever was the producer, there was 394 00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:42,400 a very tight role off for what they could do. They never reached out. 395 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,200 That's interesting. David Fincher is the yeah, the key creative person behind 396 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,480 the stories, and I don't know if Kristin feels the same way. It 397 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,680 was actually my favorite television show of the last couple of years. I thought 398 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,640 it was amazing, but I'm actually really surprised that would you have had the 399 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:06,279 actors portraying you sit down with you. They often do that for film and 400 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:08,799 television roles. If you notice, they couldn't have gone more wrong on any 401 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:15,160 of our backgrounds. They couldn't. Maybe they did try to just be absolutely 402 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,039 opposite. I don't know, you'd have to ask them, but they had 403 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:22,400 it so crazy in terms of Wrestler and Douglas on their backgrounds. Anyway, 404 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:29,359 they had made a psychologist. If you can believe that, if Fincher never 405 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,400 reached out to you in any capacity, he never talked to you about your 406 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,000 character or wow, that's blowing my mind. I didn't know anything about it. 407 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,599 I'm trying to think of who turned who said to Stephen, who said 408 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,920 that for us to see it? And so I wasn't even sure in the 409 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,359 beginning what it was. And then I started reading going online. I think 410 00:28:48,359 --> 00:28:52,759 you read a news article that mentioned you. Okay, there's a show that 411 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,279 it involves a character based Yeah, but Douglas did consult on the projects, 412 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,000 so he was involved. I don't know to what degree, but he had 413 00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:03,920 a voice in there. At least he did on the cases, and the 414 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,519 cases were good. I agree with Stephen that the cases were well done and 415 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:10,640 they but they should have been. They had all the script. They had 416 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,799 the script, but what they didn't have was the script on our background. 417 00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:18,880 They really had John as this kind of bumbling FBI knew that the agent right 418 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:25,480 all into all this female dating and crazy stuff there. And on the Bob 419 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:30,599 Wrestler they had him having the son that's gonna be a serial killer, that's 420 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,160 really so far out, And they had you as a glamorous lesbian from They 421 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,519 had the Boston part, but the rest of it that was about it. 422 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,880 Yeah, that was about it. Your children had something to say about that 423 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,359 doctor, my son. They said, what had you told us? Mother? 424 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:51,720 Yeah? Is this you? Mom? So the backstory is for several 425 00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:56,359 of the key characters is just completely made up. It sounds like it is. 426 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:57,519 Yeah it is. I don't know where they were going with it, 427 00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:02,119 and I think that I'd hurt them second season. I know. I've heard 428 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,119 some of that from some of the people that were more involved, that it 429 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,279 got too wild and too far away from the cases, which was really the 430 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:12,440 strength I thought of the program. The cases. I would have to agree 431 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:17,920 and I was very disappointed they didn't bring it back, But I think the 432 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:22,480 kind of weird backstories weren't really doing it in moving the story forward, because 433 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,359 there's so much really fascinating information that could have been brought out by all of 434 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,079 the amazing cases that you all worked on. They didn't do half of the 435 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:34,000 cases that we had. Yeah, So if there was going to be a 436 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:37,200 season three, what are the cases you'd like to see them highlight? But 437 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:40,519 why that we have in our book? We got some good ones in the 438 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:45,079 book. Yeah, Hen really Wallace, I know, was of particular importance 439 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,519 and I think that would be interesting to see them highlight a bit more on 440 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:52,519 the show. The other one is Monty Rissell. I was about to say 441 00:30:52,759 --> 00:30:56,319 that they didn't include him, but they didn't. They just did a short 442 00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:00,680 thing on Monty. Monty is Monty may get out. Hes been a very 443 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,960 good inmate, and he may get out because he keeps going up for Pearle 444 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,599 and he organizes the baseball team and he does all kinds of good things down 445 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:12,799 there. He's at the Donna in Virgina at Ali the I'm trying to think 446 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:18,839 of who else Stephen did we simonas and Joebert are both. Yes. John 447 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,759 Joebert a very interesting case. Learned a lot from him in terms of his 448 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:30,640 really cemented in our early theory that something goes on in the childhood of these 449 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,640 guys that just stays with their heads, stays with them, and it gets 450 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,160 acted out by the time they get up to adolescence and young adulthood. That 451 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:45,559 such haunting interviews too. After he was caught talking about immediately after killing this 452 00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:51,000 second boy in Nebraska and just going to a McDonald's, washing his hands of 453 00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:53,240 blood in the bathroom and getting some food, having a meal, and then 454 00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:59,240 going home and sleeping it all off. Just the coldness that he showed and 455 00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:05,359 the level of meticulous detail he put into his crimes is it's terrifying. Yeah, 456 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,720 but it has to be they if they ever felt what they were doing, 457 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,519 they wouldn't do it. So for whatever turns them off, turns that 458 00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:17,799 ability off, is really key of how that plays a big role in their 459 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,240 killing. Can you expand on that a little bit, because it seems like 460 00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:28,880 there's this pattern. What do you think it is that creates cold blooded monsters 461 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,759 on some level, it's the killing in them of the feeling of any kind 462 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:38,559 of empathy for another person. So that has to come from some early experience. 463 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:42,640 It isn't if you want to look at the nature or nurture. Everybody 464 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,400 says, what's the nature? That it's got to come from somewhere. What 465 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,599 we found was so important is with these men is the early absence of the 466 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,720 father and wanting. And it's true they have a lot of the fractured relationships 467 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,640 between the parents, that parents are always yelling and fighting and so forth. 468 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,319 One of the important things I think in the Joe barcase that the mother told 469 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:10,720 us is that she knows that her son had witnessed the husband choking her unconscious, 470 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,200 so that I wasn't just a little verbal thing. And she knows that 471 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,960 Jean was there. But when we talked to him, he had no memory 472 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,599 of that. Now he was still a child, he was under five, 473 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,640 but that could have registered at some point because much of his fantasies and his 474 00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:32,440 killing had to do with that. Back to your question, something goes gets 475 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,720 turned off in the normal development. From everything that doctor Burrus shared with me, 476 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:43,119 including these interviews according confessions, it just seems like there's this moment where 477 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,640 something traumatic happens. As to these killers as a child and they take that 478 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:53,720 and something strange happens where that then becomes sort of their fuel for fantasy try 479 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:59,160 and take control over this moment from their childhood where they felt they didn't have 480 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,920 any control. They practice this fantasy. This fantasy gets more and more complex, 481 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:07,359 and they're the god of this little world that they've created. And then 482 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:10,480 it becomes so authentic to them that they take this fantasy that's been in their 483 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,519 head for all these years and they acted out in the real world because it 484 00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:20,559 seems more authentic to them than reality itself. And yeah, there's this disassociation. 485 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:24,079 They disconnect from the real world and they connected this fantasy structure that they 486 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:28,159 have, and then that's what becomes sacred to them. Camper. That was 487 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,199 a good example if you want to do. One of our friends of the 488 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,199 podcast, just friends in general, Jim Clementi, who was a profiler, 489 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,519 He has talked to us about killing has to meet the offender's emotional needs somehow, 490 00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:44,239 and that sounds a lot like what you're both putting out here about that, 491 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:47,519 but of course it never really does, or it only temporarily meets that 492 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:52,400 emotional need because serial killers by nature are out there killing again, So they're 493 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,119 constantly chasing after that, trying to perfect something. But again it's in their 494 00:34:57,119 --> 00:35:00,480 head. It can never really be perfected in the real world. And they 495 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,559 say that the killing isn't they fantasize it, but it's not as good as 496 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:07,360 they fantasize. It's not perfect, so they have to go and do it 497 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,519 again. So that whole repetitive issue is really important, all the more reason 498 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:15,079 to catch them as soon as you can. And Joe Bier talked about having 499 00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:16,920 to get it right, having to give the fantasy, and that's why he 500 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,760 cut off a hunk of flesh from one of his victims. Is that didn't 501 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,719 match to whatever his idea of right was. Yeah, he was interesting because 502 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,920 he had these would he called his cannibal fantasies. He wanted to eat his 503 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,760 babysitter from when he was five or six. Now, come on, that's 504 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,519 really young. Gone, Yeah, yeah, either until she was all gone. 505 00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:43,880 One of the things we've seen in recent years in discussing the Colonial Parkway 506 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:51,639 murders in other cases with current profilers is a modification or maybe a distancing from 507 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,960 certain ideas that seem to come up over the years, which is that serial 508 00:35:57,079 --> 00:36:01,360 killers have types of people that they tac types of victims. They seem to 509 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:07,039 be really stepping away from that, and they talk a lot more about serial 510 00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:10,840 killers don't just have a single type of victim. They don't just kill non 511 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,079 stop. In other words, they start and they stop. They've used examples 512 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:22,960 in discussions with us about gaps in serial killers trajectory of murder that they may 513 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,880 stop for months or even years at a time. Do you feel like the 514 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:32,960 ideas that were generated from the early studies have changed. I wouldn't say they 515 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:38,039 changed, because I kept up with serial killers in these times and you can 516 00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:43,880 still find many of the concepts that we had. I think there are different 517 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,159 types of serial killers, and that's what I think is important, as you 518 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:52,639 can't there's not one recipe, but there's a number and Joe bart and you 519 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:54,920 can ask them the same question. And he just made it clear on the 520 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,440 interview that why did he pick that particular boy, and he said he was 521 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,880 alone. Now we don't know whether there was other of course, this is 522 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,239 six in the morning. This was a little newspaper boy that was delivering his 523 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,719 papers. We also in the end of you fund out he had really been 524 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,559 watching he goes out hunting. A lot of them just go out hunting every 525 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,199 night, and it's when everything is bright is when they strike. So even 526 00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:20,519 though he said, yeah, he was alone, they're just waiting for somebody 527 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:22,880 to be alone, rather than he was looking. He spotted one and he 528 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,400 might have to go out to night after night usual they do. That's much, 529 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,800 Yes, that's as much they prelude, if you will, the hunting, 530 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,000 absolutely, and we don't realize that. And that's why now I think 531 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,480 that we've educated law enforcement that when you have a victim and they can you 532 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:42,920 ask them what kinds of behavior have you noticed any odd behavior by anybody prior 533 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,480 to this kind of thing? Obviously not in the murder, but in other 534 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:51,559 things that engaging in hunting behaviors. Yeah, and try to use that kind 535 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:53,559 of behavior on some of these awful cases that we have coming up, some 536 00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,519 of these shooting cases. And how they how many red flags they leave, 537 00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:02,119 nobody's paying attention to these red flags, it's amazing. So I think that 538 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,599 your question about how much over thirty years has things change. You always are 539 00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:10,719 learning something new, and that's important, absolutely important to do that and to 540 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,119 see how much they do match or do not match? And what other differences. 541 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,519 I'm going to say, the one thing that has really increased ever the 542 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:22,840 last thirty years definitely has been the school shooter or the mass killer. And 543 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,599 as a high school teacher, that is something that is on my mind every 544 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:28,880 single day when I go into my when I go into my school building, 545 00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:31,920 is something going to happen today involving a kid with a gun. It was 546 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,760 that something that you all could ever have predicted was going to happen when you 547 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,199 started at the BA BSc back then. Sorry. What was interesting is one 548 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,800 of the interviews with Ed Kemper, he was Who's tired? Never he had 549 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,239 to tell the police that he had killed all these people he had, He 550 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,400 turned himself in and in that later in that interview we found out that he 551 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,880 was next preparing for a mass shooting. He's going to change his Yeah, 552 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,519 he's going to change as m so to speak. Teachers, by the way, 553 00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:09,840 mentioning teachers are so key in spotting troubled kids. Yes, and they've 554 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,880 got to get up to speed on what are some of the warning signs. 555 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,760 They've got to because you look at any of these adolescent kids and they all 556 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,280 left some kind of message I have long advocated that is something that we should 557 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,800 be doing as part of our teacher training is everybody needs to have a seminar 558 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,079 and how do you spot warning signs of these students? Yeah. The other 559 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:36,159 group are school nurses because a lot of them, what are the school nurse 560 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,840 for things? And she knows the ones that are having trouble and not so 561 00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:44,639 Between teachers and school nurses, I think should be a better training for them. 562 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,159 Yeah, I agreed absolutely. At the end of the day, what 563 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,320 do you both do to separate yourself out from this incredibly difficult subject matter? 564 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,039 Because this has to just be an incredible weight on you. How do you 565 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:00,360 step away from it at the end of the day. You meanwhile, we 566 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,800 were writing the book because we were more works of course and writing the book. 567 00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:07,320 Yes, I guess we each have our own way. I like music, 568 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:12,960 I put music on and do something else or teach. I think teaching 569 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:15,079 is why I like to teach, because I'm getting I feel like I'm doing 570 00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:19,960 something for the next generation to learn. You had said that early on when 571 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,280 we first started working on this, and you started sharing some of the photos 572 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,079 of crime scenes and things like that to work off of I'd said, how 573 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,400 did you deal with this? You've seen this every day, it must have 574 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,639 been really hard, and you were quick to point out that you never lost 575 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:37,519 your empathy. But you always viewed it as data and something that if you 576 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:40,400 understood it, if you learn from it, maybe that could help somebody else 577 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,840 down the road. So that was always your motivate And I think, yeah, 578 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,440 and I think that's why detectives do it. You're always looking for something 579 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,760 to explain something. So if you take that kind of inquiry on what this 580 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,039 case is all about and who did it? Or working now with a cold 581 00:40:55,039 --> 00:41:00,679 case group, and that's been very interesting to see people going back twenty thirty 582 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,800 years on a case that never got solved, and you could say, why 583 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,480 do they do it? They want to. It isn't just that they want 584 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,079 to find out who the killer was, but it's for the family because everybody 585 00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:13,559 else has forgotten. It's I know we have with this one case and it's 586 00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:16,639 been a little The mother's nine year old daughter was alive at the time of 587 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:21,000 her mother's murder, and this was back in the eighties, and so she 588 00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:24,360 went now in her forties, and she said she reached out to us to 589 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,360 say she was so happy that somebody cared about her mother. If you'd ever 590 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,840 want me to talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, my sister's murder and Rebecca 591 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,480 Doowski's that's thirty five years now, and that's been an FBI case since the 592 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:43,400 very beginning, and the case continues to move forward, but sometimes it feels 593 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,599 like with glacial speed. Is it with your what your agency? Is it 594 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:52,639 with the BSU? It's with the FBI. It's always been handled by FBI, 595 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:59,199 Norfolk and Newport News, Okay, And it's been a long yeah, 596 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,679 just slow. And then there are three other double homicides that are considered part 597 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:08,000 of the Colonial Parkway murders, although nothing in the forensics actually links the other 598 00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:15,559 double homicides. It's just circumstantial couples, cars, isolated rural locations, lovers 599 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:22,280 lane situations in and around Williamsburg, Virginia. Two of the cases are FBI 600 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,920 cases because they happened inside the National Park the Colonial Parkway, and then two 601 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,880 of the cases are Virginia State Police cases because they happened outside the National Park. 602 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:37,400 The lack of information sharing between the agencies and the friction back then. 603 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,920 This isn't eighty six to eighty nine didn't help us move these cases forward. 604 00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,760 And of course this is before DNA has come out of the lab. Really, 605 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,559 so crime scenes were not secured in the way they would be in twenty 606 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,039 twenty two. So we're challenged with evidence that's thirty to thirty five years old 607 00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:59,480 and wasn't well preserved by contemporary standards. I'm not criticizing, but when you 608 00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:05,880 have first responders climbing into vehicles to examine body, that wouldn't happen if we 609 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,039 had a terrible thing like that happened today. But back then, that was 610 00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:12,719 how the crime scenes were handled. There's always been a sense in our case 611 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,239 by the way that law enforcement or an impostor may be involved because of the 612 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:22,880 way these couples were approached. We're still finding ourselves in the cold case and 613 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:27,239 unsolved category all these years later. Have you had a cold case group look 614 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,920 at it. I would love that if the opportunity presented it. You might 615 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:35,400 think of Greg Cooper because he's a retired FBI and he's he runs the he's 616 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,599 out of Utah and now he's doing one of our cases. We have a 617 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:42,440 super sleuth group, and he's doing a case from the Netherlands. Wow, 618 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,519 oh wow, we've done it international. Yeah, we're really looking forward to 619 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:51,880 it. Would want if Greg would look at it, because he's Bureau's we'd 620 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,800 love that we can talk about that. Off are okay? Well? I 621 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,880 was going to say we were told at one point that the BSU did take 622 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,880 a look at the Colonial Parkway murders, but we can't seem to get anybody 623 00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:06,039 on the record about that, so we don't even know which profilers would have 624 00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:07,760 looked at it. I know people have asked John about it a number of 625 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,280 times and he said he's familiar with the case, but he isn't willing to 626 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,159 speak about it. I'm hoping at some point we get a little bit more 627 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:19,679 information about that, but apparently the BSU has seen it. So your next 628 00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:22,639 book venture, it sounds like you're already hard at work on. Do you 629 00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:23,760 want to tell us a little bit about it, Steve, and I'll start 630 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,800 with you and then you can kick it to Anne. Sure. It basically 631 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,000 would pick up where A Killer by Design leaves off right after the Henry Lewis 632 00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:37,519 Wallace case, where doctor Burge's career starts to shift a little bit towards the 633 00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:42,360 legal side. Of her work as an expert witness and giving testimony on everything 634 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,239 that she'd learned throughout her work studying victims of sexual trauma and developing criminal profiling 635 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,079 for the BSU, And it picks up on all that and then it applies 636 00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:55,320 it to the criminal justice system with some big cases that you worked on, 637 00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:01,199 including the Menendez brothers, the Larry Nasser. There's a lot of great content 638 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:06,320 there, and it's another one of those instances of trying to take so much 639 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,599 material and wrangle it down into something that's easier to consume when things go well, 640 00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:15,360 which we are sure they will. Any idea when the book would be 641 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,840 finished, I know that's a hard question to answer. It's getting there. 642 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,440 It's not too far off, Steven. We have a good chunk of it 643 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,400 written. But this was a process the first time around where we had more 644 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,880 chapters written than ended up being in the book. As got edited and landed 645 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,199 with its publisher, things just change a little bit. So we've got a 646 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,639 good chunk down and we'll see how much of that lasts. That's fantastic. 647 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,519 The book is a killer by design, Murderers, mind hunters, and my 648 00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:50,719 quest to decipher the criminal mind by Anne Burgess and Steven Constantine. Thank you 649 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,159 both for joining us on mind Over Murder today. That's going to do it 650 00:45:53,199 --> 00:46:07,119 for this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind 651 00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:13,199 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 652 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,519 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 653 00:46:19,159 --> 00:46:22,599 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 654 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:28,639 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 655 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,159 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 656 00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:37,079 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas 657 00:46:37,119 --> 00:47:00,079 five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. My