1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims a violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,359 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page. With my 9 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:47,200 partner in crime, Bill Thomas, we are joined today by Mark Olshaker, 10 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:53,320 author of too many books to count at this point, writing partner with John 11 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:57,520 Douglas. Mark, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Kristin, always 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,640 good to be here. Can you actually give us a account of how many 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,400 books you've written at this point? Let's see with John, I think we've 14 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:07,680 done like ten or eleven now I'm not quite sure, something like that. 15 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:11,079 And then and then on your own, you've written a number of books as 16 00:01:11,079 --> 00:01:15,719 well. Yeah, I've written in five novels and a couple of other non 17 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:18,879 fiction books. And I know when I talked to you the other day, 18 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,000 you said you're working in one with that doctor Ostroholm. Right now. We're 19 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,760 doing another book of sequel to the one we put out in twenty seventeen, 20 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:32,200 Deadliest Enemy War against the Killer Germs, which actually, I have to say 21 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:38,439 our chapter on coronavirus was called Stars and Mirs Harbingers of Things to come. 22 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:42,239 We're doing another book now about what we've learned and haven't learned from COVID and 23 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:47,319 how we can apply that, we hope to the next inevitable pandemic. So 24 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:49,120 yeah, sex, violence and pest holes. That's what I do. And 25 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:52,879 the first page of that one should just be we told you. Yeah, 26 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,560 I know, but people don't like to hear that, unfortunately, although it 27 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,359 probably is good for all of us to erie you summarize some of what I 28 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,560 hope we've learned from this recent pandemic. I shouldn't even refer to it in 29 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,039 the past, pans. Yeah. No, it's one of the things, 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:15,080 the only thing we really didn't predict and didn't talk about in Deadliest Enemy and 31 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:17,520 the thing that really surprised us the most was what I would just call the 32 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:23,719 non compliance. I thought everybody would want to pull together on this common threat. 33 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,479 We would expect humanity to pull together if there was an alien invasion. 34 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:34,039 We were just surprised that they didn't. That it became so politicized that people 35 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,759 would act against their own best interests just because of a political view they'd taken. 36 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,199 And the other thing is, I think from both sides, from both 37 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,879 the Trump administration and the Biden administration, I have to say I'm very disappointed 38 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,960 in the public messaging, the messaging from CDC, from NIH and others. 39 00:02:54,759 --> 00:03:00,759 We really need to develop a strong sense of humility about what we know and 40 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,159 don't know, and just be prepared. So yeah, I think there's a 41 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:08,199 lot of lessons and I think we're still just we're still processing them. And 42 00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:14,719 people often ask me what's the connection between the writing you do about public health 43 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,000 and the writing you do about criminal justice? And I say, they're both 44 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:23,039 mystery stories and about killers who are lurking there when we least expect them, 45 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:29,479 and they're both detective stories. And I think they're all crime and disease are 46 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:31,919 always going to be with us, and I have a tremendous amount of respect 47 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:38,199 for the detectives and investigators in both of those fields who try to get ahead 48 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:40,319 of the problem. Mark, we wanted to bring you in today to talk 49 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,360 a little bit about John Hinckley, who has been in the news recently because 50 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:50,479 he has been released from all court oversight with relation to his role in the 51 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,319 near assassination of Ronald Reagan. For any of our listeners who may not be 52 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,479 aware, because we do have international listeners and we also have some younger listeners, 53 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:02,560 can you just tell us very quickly who John Hinckley Junior actually is. 54 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:10,319 Yeah. John Hinckley Junior was a young man on March thirtieth, nineteen eighty 55 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:16,399 one, who waited outside the Washington Hilton Hotel after new President Ronald Reagan was 56 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,000 giving a speech. He came out one of the lower entrances to his waiting 57 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,920 limousine with his press secretary James Grady, and a couple of other aides and 58 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,759 his coterie of guards and secret service agents, and John Hinckley came up to 59 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:36,759 him and fired into the group, seriously injuring Jim Grady. He never worked 60 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,000 again from that day on, and it turns out when they got into the 61 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,920 limousine and they rushed off, the found out that President Reagan had been seriously 62 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,920 injured. He was taken to George Washington University Hospital emergency room, where we 63 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,360 found out later he almost died. John Hinckley was arrested. He was put 64 00:04:56,399 --> 00:05:00,319 on trial for attempted murder and assassination because at that as a federal crime. 65 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:08,560 And it turns out that his whole attempt was he wanted to impress the actress 66 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:13,319 Jodie Foster, who he'd first seen in the movie Taxi Driver with Robert de 67 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:18,360 Niro, and he thought that somehow if he committed this dramatic act and had 68 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,680 her come away with him, she would be impressed and he would win her 69 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:27,839 affection. Through that, he was i suspect. Through that, and through 70 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,720 some probably good representation, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and 71 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:39,360 committed to Saint Elizabeth's Hospital for the mentally Ill at that time and where he 72 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:46,680 remained for several decades, eventually being allowed some limited privileges, then being allowed 73 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,480 to go to his parents' home in Williamsburg, Virginia, and, as Kristen 74 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:58,560 said, most recently being deemed completely recovered, maintained saying whatever you want to 75 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,279 call it, and allowed to go about his business. He's now in his 76 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:08,040 sixties. I believe, yes, before we get into Hinckley and some of 77 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,040 the mechanics involved. It seems to me the Secret Service has been back in 78 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:17,000 the news recently. I don't feel like a president in twenty twenty two, 79 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,040 regardless of who the president might be, would be exposed in the same way 80 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:29,279 the President Reagan was on the steps of a major hotel. You're probably right, 81 00:06:29,399 --> 00:06:32,519 Bill, but things have gotten tighter and tighter as we've gone along. 82 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:40,160 It's unimaginable now to think that president could be exposed the way President Kennedy was 83 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,920 on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, riding in a somewhat hostile city 84 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,759 of Dallas, Texas in an open top limousine. That's just in a slow 85 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:56,480 moving motorcade. That's unthinkable today. During the Clinton administration, the Secret Service 86 00:06:56,519 --> 00:07:00,839 closed off Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House to avoid truck bombs or 87 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,759 car bombs. More and more things have happened like this, if you remember. 88 00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:11,319 Since this has also been in the news, President Trump wanted to go 89 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,639 to the Capitol on January sixth, the twenty twenty one, after his incendiary 90 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:20,079 speech near the White House, and the Secret Service said that he couldn't go. 91 00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:27,040 He in fact, he also wanted the magnetometers taken away from the site 92 00:07:27,079 --> 00:07:30,879 where he was speaking so that the more and more people of his followers can 93 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:32,839 be let in. The Secret Service, of course, we're trying to keep 94 00:07:32,879 --> 00:07:36,600 all weapons out. Trump didn't seem to care about that because he thought that 95 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:40,920 the weapons were not aimed at him. Yeah. I think there's been tighter 96 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,079 and tighter security as we've gotten more sophisticated about what's going on in this country. 97 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,720 And look, we are a violent country. There was a mass murder 98 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:57,639 in Copenhagen, Denmark, just this past week. Now what's interesting is Copenhagen 99 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,120 has one twenty fourth of the mass murders that we do, according to my 100 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:05,839 latest information. But we're seeing things all over the place now. I know 101 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:13,199 sometimes too, the presidents have surprised the Secret Service with impromptu jumping out of 102 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:16,639 limousines and that sort of thing. I know that in the example you just 103 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:22,279 brought up, President Trump didn't want the magnetometers used because he wanted a larger 104 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,079 crowd. But I also remember President Obama jumping out. I was talking him 105 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,720 around the mall, and I'm sure it gave his Secret Service detail. You 106 00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:33,879 can only do, you can only do a certain amount. But I felt 107 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:35,600 the same way when I saw that scene of Obama Bill, I said, 108 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:39,039 this is crazy. As a citizen, I liked it because I thought, 109 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,120 wouldn't it be cool to see the president and be able to interact with the 110 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:48,440 presidents closely? But from a Secret Service a details perspective, they had to 111 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,799 be having a cat. Yeah, this is the Secret Service has been criticized 112 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,480 a lot of late, sometimes validly, sometimes not validly, But yeah, 113 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:03,159 it's an increasing problem as our country becomes more and more politicized, more and 114 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,080 more diverse in its political views, and people are just angry. So prior 115 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:15,399 to attempting to assassinate Reagan, Hinkley had actually stalked President Jimmy Carter and he 116 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:20,000 had stalked to Jodie Foster in that seven months prior to actually shooting President Reagan? 117 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,240 Does the Secret Service have an awareness of those sorts of things? Would 118 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,240 they have been aware that Hinckley was a stalker and that that only come out 119 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,639 later? Try they try to and is, But this is not unusual. 120 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,960 Most assassins really are not focused as much as you would think on the object 121 00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:41,720 of their violence. It's more about making a name for themselves, feeling some 122 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:46,759 kind of importance. I can say, I think without any exception, all 123 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:52,159 of the assassins that I can think of have been deeply troubled individuals, very 124 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,919 inadequate, feeling that they had to make their statement somehow. John Hinkley thought 125 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,840 that by killing Reagan that he would impress what he fostered. Why he thought 126 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:09,159 that remains under discussion. But Arthur Bremer, who tried to assassinate Governor George 127 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,919 Wallace when Wallace was running for a president on a third party ticket in the 128 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,200 nineteen seventy two he got him at a shopping center in Laurel, Maryland. 129 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,679 Wallace was a paraplegic for the rest of his life and pine after that. 130 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:28,639 But what's interesting is Bremer had nothing particular against Wallace. He had first stalked 131 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,559 President Nixon and tried and stalked him for several months, but because of the 132 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,360 Secret Service, he was never able to get close enough to Nixon to do 133 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,440 anything. He should switch to an easier, less hard, hardened target. 134 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:45,919 All of these got most. Almost all of these guys, with the exception 135 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,320 of a couple like Sarah Jane Moore and Squeaky From, both of whom tried 136 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,399 to were Manson family members who tried to assassinate President Ford. Most almost all 137 00:10:54,399 --> 00:11:00,120 of these others are men. Almost all of them come from the backgrounds that 138 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,480 were not optimum in one way or another. They almost all kept diaries and 139 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:11,840 lists of their grievances, So these are pretty much unfocused, angry young men 140 00:11:13,159 --> 00:11:18,279 who look for a focus for their grievance or something to make them stand out, 141 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,600 to make them important. Even somebody like Mark David Chapman, who assassinated 142 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:28,679 John Lennon. John Lennon was an international celebrity. Chapman was a nobody. 143 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:35,159 But if Chapman had power over Lennon, he became a somebody in his own 144 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,679 mind. I want to jump back to Kristen's earlier question for a second. 145 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,159 Mark, I know you were crediting the Secret Service, who deserved the credit 146 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,840 for keeping our public figures safe. When you say that the Secret Service was 147 00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:52,440 able to head off some of these assassinations, does that mean then that those 148 00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:58,879 individuals who may have thought of attempting those assassinations move on to the radar? 149 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Are of the Secret Service or a lot of a lot of them? Do 150 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,440 the ones you don't hear about are all the people that the Secret Service keeps 151 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,919 track of, and there are hundreds of them, if not thousands. I 152 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,840 was involved in a situation once where I contacted the Secret Service about somebody who 153 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:20,000 I thought from communications with me, I thought might have been a threat. 154 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,960 And the Secret Service said, yeah, we know about him. Yeah, 155 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,159 so this is someone we are aware of and on some level we're tracking or 156 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,639 whatever. Do you know if this has always been a bit of a rumor 157 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,080 that goes around Williamsburg, because of course Hinckley spends a lot of time here 158 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:41,480 in Williamsburg. More so, now does Secret Service still keep track of John 159 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,440 Hinckley? I'm sure they do. We've never been able to I've never been 160 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,919 able to get You won't get that confirmed, but I'm sure that I wasn't 161 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:54,279 sure if that was. Is there a Secret Service person on him at all 162 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:00,840 times? And I suspect that his release was not an arbitrary time. I 163 00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:05,840 believe he would. I believed he would not be released until Nancy Reagan died 164 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:11,960 and after that very interesting. What's sad then is that James Brady has died. 165 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,279 Yes, he does as well. And Kristen and I talked about this. 166 00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:20,720 You could make a case that Hinckley is directly responsible for Jim Brady's untimely 167 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:24,000 demise, yes you could. The problem is since he was found not guilty 168 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:28,240 by reason of insanity, that would be a very hard case to make them 169 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:31,720 up. So what are the crates here? Are required to find someone not 170 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,360 guilty by reason of insanity to said something to do with it? This is 171 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:41,679 very interesting and very relevant. Unfortunately, this really goes back to the McNaughton 172 00:13:43,039 --> 00:13:48,120 case in Britain in the late seventeen hundreds early eighteen hundreds, Daniel McNaughton sometimes 173 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:54,759 spelled McNaughton, tried to had some grievances against the British government and tried to 174 00:13:54,799 --> 00:14:00,720 assassinate the Prime Minister, Sir Robert Peel outside the Prime ministers of residence. 175 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,600 He ended up not being able to assassinate Heal, but was able but able 176 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,080 to kill his private secretary. He was put on trial and he was found 177 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,519 essentially not guilty by reason of insanity. The McNaughton rule which came out of 178 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:24,279 that into British common law essentially said two things. Somebody is not guilty by 179 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:30,600 reason of insanity if number one he does. And we always use the term 180 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:37,720 he because overwhelmingly the people the offenders were talking about are male. The two 181 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,679 issues are he does not know the difference between right and wrong and number two 182 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:50,879 cannot conform his behavior to the dictates of society. Now, there have been 183 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:58,000 many reinterpretations since then, but that is essentially still the insanity defense. Today 184 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,600 we talk about a doctor known as the policeman at the elbow, and the 185 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:09,360 doctrine states that if there is a uniformed policeman at the scene of the crime, 186 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:13,559 and the criminal goes ahead and commits the crime anyway, he is probably 187 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:20,399 insane. If the uniformed police officer's presence deters him from the crime, then 188 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,679 he is probably not insane. Now that's a very simple explanation. The next 189 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:30,000 thing that always comes up in these discussions when I explain this is they say, 190 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,440 don't you have to be crazy to kill somebody in cold blood as opposed 191 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,159 to self defense or anything like that. And the answer is crazy doesn't mean 192 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:46,720 anything to the law. Is somebody mentally ill. Who does that? Most 193 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:50,559 likely they are. I can't think of many cases where somebody would commit cold 194 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:56,120 blooded murder or attempt to and not be mentally ill. However, mental illness 195 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:03,600 and insanity are two different things. Mental illness is a very vague psychiatric term. 196 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:08,320 Insanity is a legal term which has to do with your ability to comport 197 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:15,120 yourself according to the dictates of society. In other words, somebody who is 198 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:22,120 delusional may or may not be insane. Somebody who is hallucinatory most likely is. 199 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:27,279 So. I would submit to you that somebody like John Hinckley, while 200 00:16:27,399 --> 00:16:33,679 certainly mentally ill, I don't think he was insane by any stretch of the 201 00:16:33,919 --> 00:16:38,039 of a reasonable approach to the law. Yeah, I remember reading that he 202 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:45,320 was found to have schizophrenia and major depressive disorder. So do you feel like 203 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,600 the insanity defense wasn't warranted there? I absolutely feel it wasn't. I don't 204 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:55,320 think I saw no indication then or now that he ever suffered from schizophrenia, 205 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:02,279 which is a shattered personality. One hears voices, one has delusions and sometimes 206 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,799 hallucinations. He probably did have some kind of depressive disorder, but that again 207 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:12,000 is does not conform to the definition of insanity. He knew right from Braun 208 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:17,319 he was able to conform his behavior. Also, he planned this, He 209 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,079 knew exactly what he was doing. You could say that there's some very irrational 210 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:26,880 behavior. The idea that he was going to impress a beautiful, famous actress 211 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,880 into going off with him by killing the president. That's certainly a rational One 212 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,799 could call it delusional, whatever you want to say, But that's not insane. 213 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,079 He didn't have to do it, and he knew it. But many 214 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:45,119 of us civilians use these terms interchangeably, don't you think Right now, Look, 215 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:48,720 we all use the term crazy, we say that's a crazy idea or 216 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,160 whatever. But my point is that insanity has over the last three centuries had 217 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:59,799 a very specific legal connotation, and in my view, obviously the jury disagreed 218 00:17:59,839 --> 00:18:03,720 with me. But in my view, John Hinckley was not insane at the 219 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,880 time, nor has he been. I think it was obsessional. Certainly, 220 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:14,559 he certainly had mental problems, but those don't excuse what he did. Particularly 221 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,200 with Jim Brady said, the more appropriate punishment, in your view, would 222 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,160 have been life in prison. Absolutely, now I tend to agree with you 223 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,519 on that. So in two thousand and five, they started loosening restrictions on 224 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,200 him at Saint Elizabeth, and that was the first time that I remember, 225 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,039 as a citizen of Williamsburg hearing they're gonna let John Hinckley come home. They're 226 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:37,200 going to let him visit his parents. Do you And then just three weeks 227 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,839 ago, as we said at the top of the pod, he was freed 228 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,799 from all court oversight. Do you feel like that's the right call to make? 229 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:49,640 Should he be freed from something? I think the psychiatrists and the officials 230 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:55,759 were in a bind because if he had been declared not guilty by reason of 231 00:18:55,839 --> 00:19:00,079 insanity and he was no longer insane, which I don't think he was, 232 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,960 to begin with, what is your logic for holding him in prison? So 233 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,200 I think this was a miscarriage of justice to begin with. Had he been 234 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:18,359 look Sirhan who assassinated Robert Kennedy certainly had the same kind of mental instabilities as 235 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,400 John Hinckley, But he was found sane and guilty and he's still in prison 236 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,319 where he has been since spring of nineteen sixty eight. I don't have a 237 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,519 good solution for what you do with the John Hinckley now, had there been 238 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:37,119 what I would consider a reasonable jury verdict. I think that he would still 239 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,039 be in prison and it wouldn't be an issue. Now, let me say 240 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:44,880 at the same time, I have read the judge's instructions many times. They 241 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:51,079 are so complicated and so convoluted based on both defense and prosecution. But I 242 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:55,119 would think a jury of layman would be very confused by this, and they 243 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,519 probably gave him the benefit of the doubt. I think a better case maybe 244 00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:04,000 could have been made explaining just exactly what the insanity defense is, because, 245 00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:10,559 as you both know from your own research and criminology, the insanity defense doesn't 246 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:15,519 work very often. It's invoked a lot, but most juries are not willing 247 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:19,160 to let killers out on that basis, and they really worry that if you 248 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:23,160 don't convict somebody, then it's an open question about when they're going to be 249 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,160 back on the street again. It feels like the holy Grail for a lot 250 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,920 of defense. Oh sure, attorneys like they're going to try it, but 251 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:37,200 they're not likely to succeed. And if you said a moment ago in my 252 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,400 most recent book with John Douglas, when a killer calls about the Larry Jeane 253 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,839 Bell murder case, in South Carolina in the mid nineteen eighties. What this 254 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:53,000 man did to these two victims, one seventeen year old girl just graduating from 255 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,839 high school and then two weeks later a nine year old girl, both of 256 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:03,039 whom he abducted, sexual violated, and then killed in horrible fashion. The 257 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,799 defense was, okay, he did it. Clearly this guy is insane, 258 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:11,920 and the way he was acting out in court. But again, the prosecution 259 00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:15,000 was able to prove, with John Douglas's help, that while this guy was 260 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:21,480 bizarre, while he was certainly mentally unstable, he knew exactly what he was 261 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:25,400 doing. He planned it, he planned his escape, he planned not getting 262 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,680 caught, He hid the bodies, all of these things. Again, we 263 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:33,640 really, I can't emphasize this enough. We have to make a distinction between 264 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,799 mental illness and insanity, and there was a lot of illness itself is not 265 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:45,839 an excuse. And when you see tons and tons of rational behavior by the 266 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:52,039 killer or killers, there are clearly an ability to make decisions which will minimize 267 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:56,680 the opportunity for them to get caught. We don't want, I don't want 268 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,359 to get really personal here, but whoever it was who killed your sister, 269 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,440 by the mere fact that he was able to get away is not insane. 270 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:10,359 They're still wandering around years later. Was rational able to plan and carry out 271 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,440 his evil, no question about it. I also think sometimes juries fear letting 272 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,039 someone out. In other words, I think, well they should. Yeah, 273 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,039 on some level, you have to say to yourself, if you're a 274 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:26,480 citizen who's been chosen for a jury, after sitting through a day's week, 275 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:30,599 sometimes even months worth a testimony, on some level, I think the thought 276 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,319 must cross the minds of every juror do you want this person back out in 277 00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:44,400 society with the opportunity perhaps to reoffend? And some of these people are people 278 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:51,160 that could easily cross over to whatever their darkest behaviors represent. Absolutely, and 279 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:56,759 from my experience, juries take their responsibilities very seriously, particularly in capital cases 280 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,599 or murder cases or violent crime of any sort. I think they really do, 281 00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:07,119 and they are very aware of victims and potential victims. So yeah, 282 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,920 I agree with it. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right 283 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:19,680 back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. 284 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,400 You'd mentioned Sihn a couple of minutes ago, who, for the benefit 285 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:29,359 of our listeners assassinated Robert F. Kennedy in nineteen sixty eight blank range. 286 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,599 By the way, at point blank range, Yeah, is the only difference 287 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,319 between his case and John Hinckley is the fact that he succeeded where Hinckley fails. 288 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,599 I think that's a large part of it. Yes, do you feel 289 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,519 like it would be appropriate to let Sihon out of prison? This many years 290 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:48,160 on? I know Rfk's son even was saying, Hey, I think it's 291 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,599 time to let this guy out. Any thoughts on that, Yeah, No, 292 00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:56,039 I would say you don't let him out, or they may be a 293 00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:57,839 more glib way of putting it into yeah, let him out. When Robert 294 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,000 Kennedy is brought back to life. This brings up a very interesting and difficult 295 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:10,240 philosophical point, Kristen. There are traditionally three pieces of logic for imprisonment. 296 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:15,680 One is rehabilitation, which we've all heard about. The other is punishment, 297 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,680 which we all know about, and the third is simply warehousing. In other 298 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,920 words, if somebody is dangerous, you just have to keep them off the 299 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:30,039 street. And the emphasis on these three goals changes with the public opinion and 300 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,480 how the crime rate and things like that rehabilitation is a nice idea when it 301 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,720 can be done, I would submit that almost no sexual predators can be rehabilitated. 302 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,279 That's my own opinion based on my research and experience warehousing. I think 303 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:51,200 that if you take somebody likes Sirahan, or let's say, the remaining members 304 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,359 of the Manson family, there is no need to warehouse them. Now. 305 00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,680 None of them are going to be none of them are going to dangerous on 306 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:03,440 any level. They're all in their seventies at this point. So the third 307 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:10,000 element is punishment. And I would say with I don't know about Sirhan, 308 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,880 because he's now saying he doesn't know whether he committed the crime or not. 309 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,440 But the remaining members of the Manson family, they all understand what they did. 310 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,640 They have had forty years or more to sometime fifty years to reflect on 311 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:29,880 what they did on that horrible two nights in the summer of nineteen sixty nine 312 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,079 in Los Angeles. On the other hand, I've seen I've studied the cases, 313 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:38,440 I've seen the crime scene photos. I've seen the horrible things that these 314 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:45,680 people did. How they stabbed a nine month pregnant Sharon Tate to death. 315 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:52,200 Wrote on the walls with her blood, and some things just can't be forgiven. 316 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:57,000 I'm afraid. And while I think that these people all have understood the 317 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,759 error of their ways, I don't think they're dangerous anymore. I don't want 318 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:06,319 to let them out of prison because there are some things that are just too 319 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:11,440 horrible to forgive. If there's an if there is an afterlife, then that's 320 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,160 taken care of in the next world. I don't think we have the capacity 321 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:19,119 or facility to take care of it in hours. All we can do is 322 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,839 balance the scales to the extent that is humanly possible. No, I don't 323 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,720 want Sir hand out. I agree with Governor knew symptom the Manson family members 324 00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:34,799 out And had John Hinckley been had John Hinckley been convicted as I think he 325 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,799 should have been, I think he should have spent the rest of his life 326 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:45,359 in prison, as should Mark, David Chapman and other assassin personalities. So 327 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,480 that just leads me back to Mark. How in the world is John Hinckley 328 00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:56,839 Junior being allowed to wander around Williamsburg, Virginia essentially unsupervised. Yeah, I 329 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:02,519 don't think there's a I would be very surprised if the Secret Service is not 330 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,880 keeping track of him, at least on a surreptitious or unofficial basis, since 331 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,319 he was declared not guilty, with the caveat that he was insane, and 332 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,960 he's no longer is. Since again, I think he no longer he never 333 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,200 was. I don't know what else you can do. If it were May 334 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,240 and he jaywalked, I'd pick him up. The whole thing's preposterous, just 335 00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:29,559 to review, he wounded two police officers, He shot and nearly killed President 336 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,119 Reagan, a sitting president. He paralyzed Jim Brady, a key member of 337 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,440 the president's staff, And as we discussed a few minutes ago, I definitely 338 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,880 believe, as a big fan of Jim and Sarah Brady's, that he shortened 339 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,400 mister Brady's life unquestionably. Not only that, but I happen to know from 340 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,039 some inside sources how hard and how difficult Jim's life was after that. The 341 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:56,400 only person I've talked to about this in the Reagan family is their daughter, 342 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,799 Patty, and I know she certainly does think he should have been led off 343 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:06,200 with an insanity plea and eventually let out, And I know she knew that 344 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,680 how this affected her mother for the rest of her life. Oh my gosh, 345 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,599 it's just the thing of nightmare. And Kristen and I talk about this, 346 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,440 and Kristen keeps thinking she's going to run into Hinckley at one of the 347 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:22,799 area bookstores that she frequents, because he frequents there too. People actually keep 348 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,759 tabs on where does this guy go? We know he goes to Sweet Frog 349 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Dantique's market the books tour that I like. And then the other issue is 350 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,000 he's going on this music tour, this concert tour, and I understand he's 351 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:40,119 selling out in some places. I think I'm enough of a I'm enough of 352 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,519 a First Amendment defender. And since he's not actually doing things having to do 353 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,680 with the assassination the son of Sam, laws don't apply to him. I 354 00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:53,599 really question anybody who would pay money to see this free. Yeah. That 355 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,799 that for context for any of our listeners who aren't aware. A federal judge 356 00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:03,480 did rule in twenty mony that John Henckley could showcase and market his artwork, 357 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,599 his writing, which is bad, and his music, which is not great 358 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,240 either, under his own name. He now has a YouTube channel where he 359 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:15,240 posts videos of himself performing his original songs and then covers of other songs. 360 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,240 He is selling out concert halls, although his Brooklyn concert recently had to be 361 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:26,400 canceled due to security concerns. Should he be allowed to profit from his artwork 362 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,240 and his music? Again, many states, and I don't know if the 363 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,519 District of Columbia or Virginia are among them, have what's called son of Sam 364 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:41,079 lay A criminal cannot a convicted criminal cannot profit by anything having to do with 365 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:47,480 his crime. Since my understanding is that for these songs or artwork don't have 366 00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:52,559 to do directly with the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan and the wounding of Jim 367 00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:56,880 Brady and several others, that this would not fit under the son of Sam 368 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,160 rules. So yeah, I think this is one of those things where I 369 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:07,119 would absolutely defend his right to do this, and I would just as vociferously 370 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:11,720 condemn anybody who supports it. I guess that's a little weird, but that's 371 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:18,359 how I feel. I just find the whole thing so infuriating. The maybe 372 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,599 is insane a word that would maybe come to mind, but here you go 373 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,119 again talking about the civilians. It's certainly crazy. It is crazy, and 374 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:33,240 it's offensive and the idea that unfortunately someone would Unfortunately in our country, I 375 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,880 haven't decided which being offensive is not a crime. I'm afraid not, but 376 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,920 wow, it's a crime against horrible, but not a crime against the state. 377 00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:47,359 It would be great if the Secret Service is keeping an eye on him 378 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:51,880 and just one little thing. As I say, if I were the police 379 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,440 chief of Williamsburg, I would be looking out every time he steps off the 380 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,880 curve. It is really something else. What a lot of people may not 381 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,319 know about Hinckley is that he does have tremendous financial resources at his disposal. 382 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,640 His family has millions of dollars. Oh where does that money come from? 383 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,839 Do you know, Kristin? They had They ran an energy company. Yeah, 384 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,400 and I suspect Kristen that a lot of the reason that he was able 385 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:21,799 to get off with an insanity defense was his family's financial resources. Lawyer's money 386 00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:26,160 can buy that. He certainly wasn't dependent on a public defender who had thirty 387 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:33,440 other cases. And it's a shame the prosecutors couldn't have rammed home an appropriate 388 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:37,880 guilty verdict because we all saw what happened there. It was on national telling. 389 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,400 So I guess in case I haven't completely answered your question from before. 390 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:47,279 Do I think he's dangerous? Probably not, although I wouldn't be I wouldn't 391 00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:49,519 be sure of it, but I think probably not. Is he despicable? 392 00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:56,160 Absolutely and the punishment of that troita that you mentioned, the three legged stool 393 00:31:56,319 --> 00:32:01,519 of incarceration, punishment is a valid it end in terms of if you've done 394 00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:08,039 something particularly heinous, which John, this is an attempt, so far as 395 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:14,720 is humanly possible in the case of murder or attempted murder or malicious wounding, 396 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,720 to balance the scales. We can't do it the way we'd like to. 397 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,640 We can't bring the dead back to life or really balance the scales. But 398 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,160 this is an attempt at proportionality. And I would submit to you that if 399 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,960 you kill somebody, anything short of the death penalty is disproportionate in your favor. 400 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,799 I like that. Oh, but I just made it off. Okay. 401 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:39,480 This may be referred to as the old Shaker formula down the road enough, 402 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:45,039 I'm still shocked when people get out of jail twenty or twenty five years 403 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:50,079 having been found guilty in some examples of murder. They don't even serve life 404 00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:52,799 with that parole. They are quarter of a century, which admittedly is a 405 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:58,720 long time. And as someone who's never been incarcerated, and let me clear 406 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:02,799 the air here, I think there are types of murder, specifically felony murder, 407 00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:07,880 where a murder is committed in the commission of another crime, like a 408 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,559 robbery or something where things happen very quickly. There may not have been any 409 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,160 intent to kill or even harm. Somebody used a gun, they panicked, 410 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:22,440 whatever. I think those people oftentimes can be rehabilitated. I think they should 411 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,880 serve long sentences, and I think their lives should certainly be altered, and 412 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,119 there should be some kind of attempt at restorative justice. But I would submit 413 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,519 that people like that you don't have to keep them in prison forever. Twenty 414 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,960 years or whatever is certainly enough time. But the people who intend to kill, 415 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,720 who go about it in a planned, methodical way, who are sexual 416 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,200 predators, who do it just for their own satisfaction, if you will, 417 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,000 their own sexual needs or desires, these kind of people should never be let 418 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,359 out on the street again under any circumstances. This isn't somebody. Let me 419 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,039 just say one more thing we've written about in our book Obsession. We wrote 420 00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:08,039 about the case of a twenty year old woman named Stephanie Schmidt in Kansas who 421 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:15,800 shortly before her twenty first birthday was abducted and raped and murdered by a co 422 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:21,079 worker who the parole board. Her parole officer had not wanted to let anybody 423 00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:25,639 know what his previous crime was, which was aggravated sexual assault with a knife. 424 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,440 Now, he I think had been sentenced to twenty five years. He 425 00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:35,239 was let out in about ten or twelve or fifteen, and what he learned 426 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,519 from being in prison was, if you're going to commit this kind of crime 427 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:43,199 again, you don't leave any witnesses to put you back in prison. So 428 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,800 now we all know the formulation, which I believe originally came from the Reverend 429 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,280 Increase Mather back in pre colonial times, about it's better to let one hundred 430 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,559 guilty men go free to one innocent man. We all agree with that, 431 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:01,159 and as we should. But let's turn that on its head. If you 432 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:08,480 have one hundred sexual predators, violent sexual predators who've been incarcerated, and you're 433 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:14,360 going to let them out on parole, what's your acceptable rate of failures? 434 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:19,679 Hundred people? How many? What a percentage are you willing to concede, 435 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,639 Okay, they may go on to commit the same kind of crime or worse. 436 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:29,880 Again, is it five percent, is it three percent? Is it 437 00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:35,280 one percent? I would submit to you that my acceptable rate of failure is 438 00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:38,719 zero percent. Why I'm very hesitant to let these kind of guys out of 439 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,880 prison early. I'm at zero Kristen, Where are you on that A zero? 440 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:49,039 Yeah? Absolutely? Because you know, here's another thing that directly affects 441 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,360 Kristen in a way that I'll explain in a minute. People ask John Douglas, 442 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:57,000 can you tell who is going to grow up to be a serial killer? 443 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,360 And he says, no, I can't tell you who's going to grow 444 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,079 up to be a serious killer. But I can tell you I can tell 445 00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:06,519 you by looking at kids whether they're going to grow up to have real problems 446 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:08,679 with anger and aggression and all of that. And he said, but so 447 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,760 can any good teacher. Yeah, now I agree. We ended up actually 448 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,639 having a conversation very interestingly at the end of the year about kids that we 449 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,480 had taught who went on to become criminals. If you've been in the profession 450 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:24,840 long enough, you do invariably have something how disturbing. Yeah, disturbing disturbing 451 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,440 but not surprising, and yet at the same time, we can't incarceerate those 452 00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:34,360 kids as they're finishing up their year with you or whatever. Now, you 453 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,679 try to intervene as best you can, but often there's a there's a lot 454 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:43,519 of pushback to try from parents or other people who say you're stigmatizing them or 455 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,920 whatever. The problem, absolutely it is. We want to make sure we 456 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,760 get in a plug for at least one of your books. If you want, 457 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,719 you read more about John Hinckley, Mark, David Chapman, Charles Whitman, 458 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,440 and other shooters. There is a chapter in The Anatomy of Motive by 459 00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:02,480 John Douglas and Marcole Sha that covers all of that information. And Mark, 460 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,719 I know you said that, there's a chapter in Obsession as well that covers 461 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,280 that. It covers the Stephanie Schmidt case. But also I would say our 462 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,840 book The Killer's Shadow talks about Joseph Paul Franklin, who was, as far 463 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,840 as we know, the first racist, anti Semitic serial killer and definitely an 464 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,320 assassin personality. Yeah, I think you can. You'll get a lot of 465 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:28,320 insight about this kind of personality through The Killer's Shadow, And I know our 466 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,840 latest book which we mentioned earlier, When a Killer Calls, also a very 467 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,760 moving, tragic story, but an important one. I think that was one 468 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,280 of your best ones. Actually, thank it And of course we did cover 469 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,440 that episode earlier in this year, which we will make sure we can listen 470 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,000 to the podcast again. Everybody, run it again, absolutely, and Mark, 471 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:52,079 I know it's always hard to predict when you've got multiple projects in development, 472 00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:54,679 but what do you think the next book to be released will be. 473 00:37:55,519 --> 00:38:00,800 Gosh, I really don't know, but I'll confess something here what I'd really 474 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,840 like to do in my old age years. I'd like to go back to 475 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,159 novel writing and see if I can still do it. Really in a while 476 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,480 since I've written a novel, but I've got three ideas which I think are 477 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:14,480 pretty compelling, and if I get time, i'd really like to go back 478 00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:16,840 to see if I can go back to fiction. Our guest today is then 479 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,480 Mark all Shaker. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. As 480 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:23,519 always, it's a pleasure, and always it's a pleasure on this end to 481 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,400 Kristen, thank you very much. That's going to do it for this episode 482 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:40,360 of My Never Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 483 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:46,519 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 484 00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:52,920 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 485 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:58,159 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 486 00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:02,239 Space Media. Can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You 487 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,039 can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 488 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:12,079 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. 489 00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:15,559 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.