Hello, and welcome to the special Holiday edition of the Superhero Ethics Podcast.
Today, we are talking about one of the most controversial ethics ridden always a
debate about it genre of movies, the Christmas movie. We're gonna be discussing
what is a Christmas movie, what are some of our favorite or least favorite
examples, what needs to happen or shouldn't need to happen? And why is
this such an incredibly strong genre for one particular holiday of one particular religion in
this country and to some extent all around the world. And joining me,
I have two different experts. First of all, I have Abbi Nyman,
who has been on this podcast a number of times before and is a Christmas
movie expert extraordinaire. Abbe you want to say hello and just give a little
bit of your background. Hi, I don't know that I would go with
Christmas movie extraordinay, but certainly a Hallmark movie, a fishnado Okay, Well,
that's a very particular shub genre that often has thought of as part of
the You know that how that plays in the large genre is very much the
topic what we're getting into. And uh Andy, what is uh I think
of you? As just a film guru, say it about who you are
and what your perspective is. Yeah, I, you know, as a
passionate lover of film, you know, with you know, our film podcasting
that we do over on the next reel and all of our shows. I
see such a wide variety of of movies. And I certainly do and always
have loved Christmas movies. But as as I've gotten older, and I guess
as the genre has broadened in so many ways, I do find that I'm
I'm you know, I I have a particular I like a lot of them.
I just don't I'm not like any Christmas movie I'll take. But I
do like quite a variety, and I always like that it does create such
a such a variety of interesting debates. I mean, you know, I
grew up in a loosely religious household. I guess that's fair to say loosely,
you know, Christian based household, never very strong, and certainly is
something that's faded in my life as I've as I've grown, I to the
point where I wouldn't even call myself religious. I not being said, I
think that there It's what I enjoy about the season itself is that it just
is a warm and welcoming season that feels like it's something that's you know,
it's close to the end of the year, and so that paired with New
Year's always feel like a period to like, you know, reflect and you
know, be surrounded by friends and family and gear up for the big shift
that is the new year and all of those solutions that you have and all
that sort of stuff. So I suppose that's kind of my draw to it
still, you know. I mean, we still hang some decorations up on
the house and things like that. I'm very minimal compared to many people these
days, but it's one of those things where it's just there's a vibe that
I think, you know, we've always kind of connected with. Yeah,
well, and I love what you said because I think you're getting at something
that I think is actually a very important part of you know, the question
of Christmas in general, but especially of Christmas movies and also like music and
how big a role it plays in our culture and we say our United States,
but also in many parts of the world certainly not all though, which
is that for many people, Christmas is now much more of a secular holiday,
and that it is you know, it kind of has these religious overtones,
but it's much more about family and togetherness and generosity and light and hope
in the midst of darkness and sadness and things like that, and kind of
give my own background. I am a Christian. I'm a religious par center
person of faith. It used to be a pastor. And I've always had
kind of a weird relationship to Christmas media from the other perspective, which is
that for me, this holiday is a very, very theological one and I
absolutely don't care if anybody else doesn't, you know, appreciate that, Like,
no one has to celebrate my religious holiday by any means. And I
love that everybody has a holiday about gift giving and secularness and trees and all
this. But it's always been kind of weird to me that all this stuff
that I know is the basis of the holiday, which again I don't ever
want to like, we shouldn't have a public holiday that's out there, that's
all Like Jesus is born, everyone in the country has to care about it,
but I certainly care about it, and so it's always been a little
weird to me that all these movies are much more about like the one level
of derivation or even two or three levels of derivation from that. And thus
I think it is very funny that one of the movies that we watched to
get ready for this is the one of the most theological movies that I've seen
a very long time about Christmas from a source I would have never did it
from which we'll get to you when we talk about our own individual movies.
But so that's why. But I certainly have always loved Christmas movies, I
think, particularly those that I think, while not in any way being explicitly
and it's not again, I don't want there to be mass market movies that
are Christian, Like my faith is my faith and should not be what everyone
has to deal with. But it's just weird to me that there's stuff based
on my faith. But not really. But I do love the like the
messages that often of the season of like family coming together or of like you
know, the you know generosity. As one of my favorite memes of this
time is that the the Christmas Carol perfectly captures the Christmas spirit, which is
that billionaires must be supernaturally terrified in order to be nice to their workers,
you know, but like, you know, whatever it is, I love
that. So so let's actually start there, and Amy, I'll start with
you, what is a Christmas movie? What what makes something a Christmas movie?
I mean, it's always such a debate, and you know, there
are there are movies that are clearly obviously Christmas movies, you know, things
that involve Santa Claus or you know, people coming together and like the family.
And I think when you think of Christmas movies that are like definitive Christmas
movies, it's the setting. It takes place, like during the season.
It's a story about family and relationships. It often involves actual like Christmas elements
that we kind of tie into it, whether secular or religious, you know,
but just usually it's it's the movies tend to be a little more on
the secular side as far as like it's about Santa Claus and the reindeer on
the roof and hanging up Christmas lights and things like that, and I think
that's kind of I don't know where I would go with kind of your typical
Christmas movie. And they certainly come in all shapes and sizes. You know.
You look at something like Christmas Vacation, which takes the vacation franchise and
ties the comedy of the Griswolds into family, but it's very specifically their Christmas
story. And then you have you know, broader ones that kind of explore
things like Elf and you know, it's I mean, there's a lot of
comedy with those, and there's romantic comedy, and you know, there certainly
is the drama ones and things like Miracle on thirty fourth straight about you know,
reinforcing your belief in Santa Claus. And so that's I think for me,
I'd say the definitive, easy to define, easy checkbox, even easy
checkbox Christmas, you know, as opposed to things like Diehard, which,
as you brought up, brings so much more debate into it. Abby.
What about for you? What makes something at Christmas movie? Yeah, I
think kind of along the same lines. To me, it's the plot has
to be affected by it being Christmas, whether that's a story about Santa or
you know, have people hanging up the lights on their house or whatever.
It's there has to be some connection to Christmas other than this is a movie
happening at Christmas, and the fact that it's happening at Christmas makes absolutely no
difference. A'll a die Hard so for you, so that can be a
start to get into question. So for you, something like die Hard or
Batman returns, those are not Christmas movies because they just they have this sort
of accoutrement of Christmas, but the christmasness isn't a fundamental part of the movie.
Yes, are we starting our debates now or should we save that for
I think let's let's here. Here's the way I want to get into it.
I want us to try and go through and see if we can name
and then discuss a bit what we think the different subgenres of Christmas movies are.
And I think when we I think one of the possible subgenres is movies
that just take place at Christmas time. And so that's when we can get
into that one. Sure, So let me kind of just throw some out
and then you all can also add ones that you don't think I have,
but also just let's talk about each one as I name them. So,
first of all, I think kind of the most basic is what you're talking
about. Andy. I think your definition actually named a couple ones, but
I'll kind of try to summarize those quickly. I think there is the family
coming together because the family or the friends or someone like that are celebrating Christmas,
and the spirit of Christmas is like a part of that. A second
thing I think you mentioned is the you know, the movie is about the
sort of characterizations that have been built up around Christmas, and that's Santa Claus
and Elves and some of the other kind of like maybe supernaturally things around that.
And then a third one that I mentioned, and we'll kind of start
with these three is basically retellings of either a Christmas Carol or It's a Wonderful
Life, which I think at this point kind of constitutes its own subgenre with
a lot of overlap. We're thoughts on those three. Did those three like
make sense? You all are genres? Yeah, I mean I think so.
I think there's there. I mean, I mean, even just looking
at film genres in general and then going okay, can I apply these over
to Christmas movies and then I think, yes, you can see how they're
they do kind of fit in with those different things, you know. I
mean, I think, I mean there are certainly more examples. You know,
there are very religious Christmas films, things like the Nativity Story, I
mean those also exist a genre that we're probably not gonna spend too much time
talking about, as fun as it is, but there are plenty of horror
Christmas films, which yep, you know, I just watched Violent Night last
night and had a wonderful time with it. And and so there's also Sorry,
and you know, musicals, animated films. I mean, there's so
many different ways that you can approach this, but I think, you know,
in the broad scope, like there's the comedy, the drama. You
know, there there's a few of those that I think will work well.
And yeah, I think I think you're right. The telling of you know,
Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol has become so key in just kind of Christmas
lore. Let's just say that it almost is a genre as like into its
own, as you said, like, there are so many versions of it,
reiterations of it, even something like I'm blanking on the name of it.
But the Will Ferrell Ryan Reynolds one that just came out last year is
in some way another version of that, where you know, the character actually
is Eben User Scrooge later in life, you know, and things like that.
So it's it's interesting how that really has become so defining of kind of
the Christmas character arc really right, And there are certainly a lot of There
are certainly a lot of retellings of a Christmas Carol out there, but I
feel like the category should be maybe larger to also encompass like Christmas lore in
general, because you get a lot of movies about like how Santa became a
thing, like Klaus, or like Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Those are
all very connected to Christmas, and you see a lot of retellings or different
interpretations, but they aren't a Christmas Carol. One thing I was thinking is
I mentioned It's a Wonderful Life as part of this, and certainly I don't
know if this is still true, but it used to be that starting around
December fifth, there was never a point in the twenty four hours of the
day every day from that until Christmas, but there wasn't at least one channel
showing It's a Wonderful Life. And as I think about it, I can
think of numerous TV shows that have had a character have sometimes very explicitly,
sometimes kind of as a parody, their own version of the It's a Wonderful
Life Christmas Story. I don't know that many moves have there been movies that
you all can think of that are retellings of its Wonderful Life where people kind
of thought, like Jimmy Stewart did best and let's just leave it alone.
Well, I mean there's as you know, as we were recording this,
there's a brand new one that has just been released called It's a Wonderful Knife,
which is it's the it's the horror comedy version of that that's made by
the people who did like the New Freaked, you know, and the kind
of like this, there's that group of people who's taking like some classic genres
like they did the Groundhog Day and now that's Happy Death Day, and they're
turning these these great like key films and turning them into horror. And so
that's the newest one. I'm trying to think if there are any other abby
you might know of some I'm trying to think of any I can't really think
of any movies. Yeah, I can come up with like probably five to
ten TV shows off the top of my head. But mm hmm. Yeah,
and some way they did it quite seriously, married with children, did
it a parody of it where Sam Kinnison is the angel, which is hilarious.
I think like Faturama have done it. But yeah, not too many
movies. Oh you know, actually, would you say the Nicholas Cage movie
The Family Man? That's my recollection of that one is kind of similar,
Like, yeah, I guess he's remembering or he sees a different version of
his life where he's married because he was a like a stone cold businessman sort
of thing. That's one that comes to mind, the only one that's actually
coming to my mind right now. Yeah, no, I think that's fair.
That's fair. I'll also mention goo ahead, go ahead, I'll say
I'll also mention as another subgenre that prodactly explore too much. But it's worth
naming because as far as I can tell, it's fairly recent. I think
Arnold Schwarzenegger started it. But it is the it's Christmas Eve and you haven't
bought your child the perfect toy yet, and so now you're fighting with other
parents to get the last version of the g I Joe Doll or the Cabbage
Patch Kid or whatever. That is all the way with Schwarzenegger and Sidbad I
think started that but now there's been like five or six, so I'm willing
to call that a subgenre in and of itself of for a very anti capitalist
holiday, perhaps the most like all hail capitalism. But I'm going to keep
my religious thoughts as far fwad as I can. It's the general rating of
this podcast. Yeah we can curse. That's fine, okay. I think
that that genre you're mentioning, I think can be again broadened too just Christmas
fuck ups, because there's also movies like Christmas with the Cranks and things like
oh what is it called? It's a kids movie where they all get stuck
in an airport over Christmas with no adults, because of course they do,
but it's just generally like Christmas mayhem. Yeah, that's fair for me.
The anti capitalist nest is what makes me focus on the like we have to
buy the perfect thing. But you're right, I think there's a lot of
overlaps there. Let's go come int a genre that probably has always been with
us, but I think has gotten a lot more tension in recent years.
Now there's a cable channel mostly dedicated to it, Abby tell Us about the
Christmas romance and Christmas rom com I think he is often it's thought, but
you've had some conversation with me about how Christmas romance might be the more appropriate
term sometimes. Yeah, I mean there's definitely Christmas rom coms, but I
do think just Christmas romance is a fairly strong subgenre. The most recent movie
that I can think of was one that was released last year. It's called
The Noel Diary, I believe, and the story is all about this man
whose mother died and he's going to clean out her hoarder house and in doing
so, he finds a journal and the journal belongs to this reporter's birth mother,
who she never knew, and so they go on this track to meet
her birth father from this diary, and it is there are comedic moments in
it, but it is very strongly a drama, and like a romance drama,
right. And I think there are other stories like that, and they've
become very popular, kind of along with like the resurgence of romance novels,
especially with like TikTok Book Talk is very into the romance novel, very into
the romantic tropes, right, So I can very closely see the connection of
why people are suddenly gearing back into this yeah, and talk a little bit
more about that. Why Because the Hallmark movies, especially which I think in
somebodys's kind of its own subgenre of the subgenre. You know, the joke
is always that they're incredibly predictable in terms of like there's the stock characters you
have, and it's almost always the big city woman and the small town guy,
although not always is the in Priggies the movie that you had us watch
does not follow that, but he's almost always wearing a plaid shirt and all
that. What do you think it is that that drives the kind of appeal
of these more recently, especially ones where there is so much predictability that I
think often gets made fun of, but as I've gone understand, it is
actually a really positive for those who really love these. Yeah, I think
one of the big things about the season, like people were talking like you
guys were talking about of like bringing people together and seeing the light and the
darkness. Especially for those of us who live in areas that get real cold,
it is very dark, very cold, very hard to find the happy
and the joy and it just turns into stress. So these Christmas movies are
almost a stress free watching experience because you know generally the storyline it's going to
take, and you know that the couple's going to end up together in the
end. Sometimes it's not the couple you expect, but the couple's going to
end up together and everyone's going to be happy and celebrate Christmas. So it's
kind of the value of the predict the predictability is itself a virtue of those
in many ways. Yeah, it's like going back and watching your favorite TV
show over and over again. It's just you know what happens, but it's
still fun to watch. Any what's your thoughts on this particular sub genre.
Don't know how much you've explored the Hallmark Christmas or even like I will say
the Hallmark but also I mean like Love actually was a huge movie, and
I think that's very much a Christmas romance, Like there's there's certainly been a
lot more big mass market ones as well. Yeah, I mean there's definitely
a place for those films and like that that style of romance during the holiday
season. Obviously in the whole idea of Christmas movies, having this element of
family relationships, connection, you know, healing, all those sorts of things.
You can you can see how it's really kind of a perfect genre for
a lot of that sort of stuff. I've generally have never really been too
much of a fan of TV movies in general. There are there are some
that I really do enjoy. But and the Hallmark movies, like the the
phenomenon, Letster's call it, of Hallmark movies, the way that it like
turned into the it's its own behemoth. I don't know, like in the
past decade, it seems where it's like as soon as December or Old around,
it was like a new movie a day is really what they seemed to
be cranking out. And you know, I mean I enjoy, you know,
being a part of the process. I've I've been involved off and on
in the film industry. I have friends who actually make Hallmark movies right now.
In fact, they just there was it called the Biltmore Christmas or something
like, they just worked on that one which just came out was huge and
a Merry Scottish Christmas, which also is this year. And so now they're
in this point where they're they're basically making Christmas movies around, which I think
is really funny that like they can't get away from Christmas and so anyway.
But I think that the genre in and of itself, though, I think
is really interesting one because it I think it has created something that is very
consumable, let's just say where it's I mean, they put them out at
such a furious rate that I think it's not really designed anymore to be something
that is watched annually. And that's kind of like Christmas movies. You know,
well, growing up it was a different thing, but even today,
like from my generation, I feel like there's this draw to having those same
movies that we'd all put on every year and like, let's sit around and
watch elf, Let's sit around and watch a Christmas story. Let's watch It's
a wonderful life, you know, And that's I think that for me,
that was always a part of the joy of the Christmas movie. But it's
kind of like they've taken on a different thing, which is like we're just
going to tweak the story over and over again and give people similar versions of
the same story with a lot of the same beats, all the tropes.
There's a little bit of a difference with it, and so it's not necessarily
my cup of tea. But that being said, you know, I having
watched the movie that Abby recommended, you know, just as a as a
note, I walked into it in a like a low point. I was
not very having a bad day, let's just say when I went in and
watched it, and as much as it didn't click with it, I was
certainly cheered up by the end of it. And so that's I think that
the interesting magic that they've tapped into with them is it doesn't it can be
consumable. You know, it's like a candy cane. It tastes good once
it's it's like one and done, and you know, and then you can
kind of move on to the next one. And so I find it to
be such a fascinating shift that has allowed these movies to kind of propagate in
a way where it's different than before, but in a way it's creating the
same feeling. Yeah, I really get that. I think I think Abby
Waite explained it, and any you're adding really helped me to figure them out
more because like one thing I'm thinking of is I kind of have the reverse
of seasonal effective disorders. So I don't know why standing under a giant ball
of fire is so much fun for the rest of you but for me having
it gone most of the time is great. But I certainly would understand that
like Christmas itself, the holiday season itself, like is incredibly stressful. You
have to get the right gift for all people, you know. I think
this is even more so true for parents, but for anybody. You know,
what holiday party is you're going to go to, what are you going
to say to different people dealing with all the family stress of you know,
either going to be with your family or just like people who aren't. You
know, Abby, I love you're talking about, you know, and you're
certainly not the only Jewish person who loved these movies. And I've a friend
of mine who asked about this, said, you know, it's the one
way she gets to deal with the fact of, like everyone is telling her
about Christmas all season long, something she has no interest in and no participation
in. And here's one way, Like it's a nice escape from the stress.
And so I yeah, I can totally get. That is why it's
a I think as the season has become much more stressful, it seems like
that that's at it. That's a big part of why they're so much more
popular as well as I think This is probably a smaller reason, but I
do think it's a thing. I know a lot of folks who like they
go home to see their family and there's hey, mom, how you doing,
It's good to see you, and then once it starts getting around too
well, why don't I have grandkids yet? Or you know, what do
you think about what's happening politically? Oh, let's turn on a movie,
you know, and the Hallmark Christmas movies are just very safe to watch together.
And so I think that that can be one more way of just the
like, it can be your own personal way to escape the stress, but
it could also be like, yeah, let's get together as a group and
like we'll do a puzzle together, or we'll watch a Hallmark movie, and
that way we won't we'll remember that we're family who loves each other instead of
people who want to tear each other's throats out because who you voted for last
time, or whatever it is. On that topic, I think it's important
to note that like the Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies have been getting more progressive.
We've seen gay characters, we've seen Jewish characters. Sometimes there's a black
lead. Very really but it happens. But because of that, there has
been big drama in the Christmas movie world where some of the stars have broken
off into form the what is it called the Great American Family Network, which
Candace Cameron all right, Kirk Cameron's brother, Kirk Cameron helps support sister.
Yeah. Yeah, but they created what is essentially a Christmas a Christian Christmas
movie network that upholds and I say this with the largest of air quotes,
American family values. AKA, it's very white and very straight. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's funny because any when you were mentioning that there have been
some movies that do mention the religious aspects of Christmas. There have been,
and some that are great, but an awful lot of them, including one
that I know is out in theaters right now that I might watch just so
I can tear apart how horribly inaccurate it is. I mean, to the
folklore of the story. I'm not claiming a big accuracy, but often they're
made also by the very conservative parts of the Christian right, and I think
that, you know, it's interesting, there's a whole other thing about that
that we can get into. So as a way of talking about this,
like how far did the edges go In terms of what is or isn't a
Christmas movie? Do you think something has to have a message in order to
be a Christmas movie? Does it have to have some kind of like family
is great or you can always change and be a better person. Like I'm
naming some of the kind of morals that a lot of Christmas movies have,
and there are others certainly, you know, but do you think it has
to have something like that to be a Christmas movie? I think the idea
of that lesson that the character undergoes is generally kind of a key part of
it, you know. I think of George Bailey. We've already talked about
Ebenezer Scrooge. You know, there is this element of that character kind of
learning that lesson. I mean, it's a it's a story element anyway,
the idea of character arc, you know, of character actually going through a
change, and that's what we're really drawn to. But in a Christmas story,
when we do see that person go through this change of you know,
learning that they are important, or learning to give instead of take, you
know, there's I think there's a value to that. I don't know if
it's always critical but I do think that that I don't know. For me,
I feel like it's one of those things that really helps it get there.
And you know, I think when you have that list of checkboxes that
you're ticking, they don't all necessarily need to be ticked, but as long
as most are ticked, I think it can fit into the kind of Christmas
genre. That's one that I think, you know, generally, I do
like to see ticked in my Christmas movies, but it's I guess it's not
always there, but I do like that sure. Like you said, it's
to me that's an essential part of any movie is having something that you're trying
to say. So I don't necessarily consider it a key aspect of a Christmas
movie so much as a key aspect of an enjoyable watch experience. That's fair,
That's fair. I think for me the idea that it is a message,
but even more specifically that it is a message that I kind of associate
again not necessarily with the religious aspects of Christmas, but the kind of just
general like family togetherness, but also like renewal and rebirth and like you can
always start again, you can always make up for the things you have done
the learning to have empathy, and that like giving is better than taking,
and all those kind of things. I think those are for me a cential
to it being a Christmas movie. But I think it's part of the point
is that, you know, we all get to see it differently. But
I'm going to use that, Oh, go ahead, I I was just
gonna say, and I think it's it's, you know, like any story,
as we've kind of been saying. But I do think that it's it's
key to note that it can be the main character who goes through that transformation,
or you can have a story where the main character is already you know,
on the line, let's just say, and by the process of being
such a good person in the world, they're the one who's actually changing all
the other characters around them. I'm thinking of something like Arthur Christmas Is where
I was kind of using as a reference point for that. Yeah. No,
I think that's totally makes sense. The segue I was going to do,
though, is that as a way to start the debate. I would
like to suggest that I for me, at least a movie being set at
Christmas time is not enough to make it a Christmas movie. So, for
example, I would not describe Batman Returns as a Christmas movie. It very
much happens a Christmas and it has the aesthetics of Christmas. Absolutely, But
there is a movie in which the two main characters, or the main character
and his sidekick, both are people who are estranged from something that they really
care about because of mistakes they've made in the past. One is estranged from
his family, the other is estranged from the part of his career that he
most wants to do. And in the course of the movie, they find
ways to learn to be better, to learn to forgive themselves, and to
seek forgiveness for those things from the people that they've been disconnected with. And
I'm talking about Diehard. So I would put forward that die Hard is a
Christmas movie because it's an action movie, but it holds up the spirit those
spirits of Christmas. Debate has been opened. Respond to tell me how wrong
I am, go off on a whole other direction, because I'm my DC
is not even worth discussing as you would. Well, do you want to
debate four or against first? Because I have a feeling I'll be four,
an abby won't be against. I'll admit it's I've seen die Hard once and
I can't say I was awake through all of it, That's right. I
don't know that I get a full opinion here, I guess Abby, I
feel like I'm kind of strupped because I know you and I talked about this
before, and you help me. I think, come to the idea that
it just being during Christmas time isn't enough to make a Christmas movie. And
what I'm sort of saying is that, like, I agree with that,
but that one of the movies I think that has often thought of that way.
Die Hard, I actually do think is more of a Christmas movie than
people give a credit for. So maybe it's not a debate, it's a
three way discussion. Andy, where are you? And all this? You
know, I it's a film that I think because it does have the kind
of the family values, it's a broken family that feels like through the process
of this traumatic situation that they go through, they are brought back together.
I feel like they're is this reconnection that we have between John and his wife
by the time we get to the end of the film, and so that
to me, you know, feels like we're learning some lessons we have Al
who kind of goes through his own growth because of his conversations with John and
and getting past some issues that he's had. I mean, again, it
ties into general film characters, journeys that we have. But because it is
this story of you know, it's a Christmas Eve party. I don't know
why they're having any Christmas Eve, but they are. It's a Christmas Eve
party. It's all like, the music has Christmas elements in it. Everything
feels very tied into Christmas. John McLean has some great Christmas one liners that
he throws out, Now I have a gun ho ho ho, you know,
things like that that I think it just feels like they're they're pulling on
Christmas in a really fun way. That sure, it is an R rated
action action film with tons of action and blood and violence that you don't normally
associate with a Christmas film. But I do think that it is that that
family connection that we end up growing into toward the end of the film that
does, for me help it really kind of be defined as a Christmas film.
Like, you know, I am being a little bit tongue in cheek
here. I'm not saying that the slaughter of this movie is very much in
line with the celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace and Andy.
When you mentioned the kind of the feel good like it's Christmas time, so
it's time to watch these movies, I was very troubled that you didn't mention
them up at Christmas Carol during that, But I assume that you meant to.
You just didn't get a chance. But it's not gonna be one of
those movies to me. I'm just saying I think it's a little more of
a Christmas movie than some people might give it credit for. Well, it's
funny because I mean Bruce Willis himself said it's not a Christmas movie as it
got damn Bruce Willis movie, which is very funny. And you know,
as a franchise, typically in a franchise you would have if it's a Christmas
movie like it would continue developing with Christmas movies. None of the sequels,
I mean, the second ones that The Wind in Winter, but it's not
really defined as a Christmas story so much as the first one is, you
know, and I say all of that. It's the same thing with the
the you know, Christmas Vacation, which is very much I think a Christmas
movie. But it's not like any of those other Griswold films have have felt
the need to go Christmas. So it's I mean, it is hard to
I think this is just these are all elements that give it the the endless
debate is this going to be a Christmas film or not? And you know,
I'm okay with the debate because I think that's part of the fun of
the whole thing. I think, you know, when you're kind of sick
of other parts, you know, like, hey, Grandpa, stop talking
about Trump. What do you mean the Christmas movie? Like, that's a
good one to segue. We can go a lot deeper on this, but
I want to talk about the individual movies each one of us had us watch,
because I think that they're they're gonna bring up a lot of the same
discussions we're having. But Gillen more specific. Abby, let's start with yours.
Tell us a little bit about the Enchanted Christmas Cake. Okay, So
I picked this movie because I remembered watching it last year and thinking this is
such a fun, stupid romp. There's nothing serious happening here, It's just
silliness. Basic storyline is this woman, her grandmother dies, she's taking over
the bakery. But this grandma has this epic love story with her husband where
they fall in love with this enchanted Christmas cake. And so the woman is
trying to create, recreate this Christmas cake that her grandmother has become famous for
just in time for Christmas, to keep her bakery afloat. And she is
met by a movie or a TV producer who's kind of unhappy with his job
and who they just genuinely like each other. So they hang out and then
they solve the mystery just because like there's there's so little drama in this movie.
Yeah, it's just let's bake cake. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's
sort of like proof of concept of the Hallmark movie. I thought it was
a great example, you know, it's it had some fun moments, the
conflict between once the couple has established they want to be together, but now
they have to have a will they won't. They felt ridiculously contrived to I
roll worthy levels, But I think that's kind of the point. Like one
thing I've kind of learned is that even among the people who really really love
these laughing at the silly moments, he's kind of part of the joy.
You know, there's very I don't think there's anyone out there being like Hallmark
movies should be OSCAR nominated, like I love them for that reason. No,
the hate Watch is definitely a part of it. I could see it,
and I guess I imagine that the writers and actors know that, you
know, because everything just seems a little over the top. But you know,
I watched it. It made me think happy thing. As you said,
you know, Andy, it's kind of hard not to smile after it.
I really wanted cake at the end of it, which is not the
best thought for me to be having it one o'clock in the afternoon, but
it definitely put it there. Yeah, it felt like a fun, silly
movie that I didn't take anything away from but just got a happy feeling from
watching. My wife and I watched it, and one she could not stop
talking about how much she hated the woman's hair. She's like, what is
up with her hair? Like she had such an issue with the hair,
and I'm just hair blind, apparently, because I don't know. I thought
it looked okay. But we walked away obsessed with the idea, so obsessed
with the idea of making Lebkuk and that we started digging up recipes and were
like, Okay, how do we make this delicious cake? We need to
have some right now, let's start ordering ingredients make it. It's kind of
like, yeah, it pushed us into that place where like, now we
have to have this. This could be an annual tradition at Christmas. We're
gonna make lib cooking. We still have to make it and see if we
like it. But it's funny, like that's the sort of thing that this
movie did to us. And it's I mean, it is so silly,
and all of the plot points are so obvious and expected, and that's why
it's just like not my type of movie, and I really like look for
things that usually have a little more meat to them. But at the same
time, like I said, I walked away, I'm like, I'm no
longer in a bad mood. This movie did what it needed to do.
It cheered me up, It gave me a little slice of cheese, and
I ate it and really enjoyed it afterwards. So it's it's that sort of
movie, and it's it's it was so funny to kind of look at it
and just kind of get that connection from something like this, because I think,
I think this may be the first Hallmark Christmas movie that I've actually seen
Hallmark or a lifetime. Technically it's a lifetime, Okay, I guess I'm
not really sure where the difference is, if there is one, or if
it's just purely because it's on those particular networks, it's just different networks.
Yeah, it did feel like some of the tropes this didn't quite hit.
Like, first of all, it's the big the guy is more from the
big city, and she's kind of like she's not from the big city,
but she seems more just like from a decently affluent suburb and not quite like
small town. And there wasn't quite so much of that, like you got
to put down your cell phone and learn to embrace small town folks see Christmas
values like, but still had a lot of the same those same plot points
and things. I think, Yeah, Andy, let's talk about yours,
because, as I said, yours winds up actually being like very specifically naming
some of the theological ideas behind Christmas. In the first couple minutes in a
Japanese anime about a homeless trans woman and her two friends, so it was
not the movie I was expecting all sorts of levels tell us about about Tokyo
Godfathers. Yes, so Toshi Cone is such an interesting filmmaker who sadly passed
away at a very very young age and only ended up making I think four
or five films total. They're all incredibly well made, really interesting stories,
definitely worth watching. But this is like the Christmas story that he told Tokyo
Godfathers, and it is pulling a lot of these Christmas elements from kind of
from like the religious Well there's there's the religious story inclusion of things like the
three wise men that we have here, the baby that is, you know,
you could essentially say that little baby is kind of like the baby Jesus
of this particular story. It takes place at Christmas time. It's Christmas Eve
in Tokyo as we're having all of this. There's definitely that sense of kind
of this magical realism throughout that kind of ties into a lot of the Christmas
stories. But I definitely think that the main crux of kind of what you're
bringing up is this sense that we you know, it is the story of
these three homeless people, but it is like a transwoman, an alcoholic and
a runaway child. Who are the three homeless people who end up finding this
baby as they're looking for something to eat or I can't remember what they're searching
for, but they find this this baby and end up kind of one.
They want to take care of it themselves, and then realize they need to
find the mother and it turns into this journey story for them, much like
the three Wise Men going to you know, following the star and everything,
as they're trying to figure out the mystery of finding you know, who the
baby's mother is, where the baby's mother is, and along the way,
And this is again a key element of the story is each of our characters
has this sense of redemption as they're working on their journey to help help this
baby find its mother, and you know, you've got just it's a beautiful
like there's this real message of hope with the story and how good people can
be despite their differences. I think all of these elements have kind of come
together to tell a story that's so completely unexpected. But I mean it just
grows in estimation with me every time I see it, and I just feel
like more and more drawn to it, Like every every holiday season. Yeah,
yeah, it's really beautiful the way it like the you know, there's
definitely some very strong illusions of Christmas that the trans woman starts out kind of
telling a joke about like if a virgin can get pregnant, then why can't
she, you know, she's just so much a woman as Mary. And
then they find this baby. The baby's name is and also that woman I
should name the characters her name is Hannah Jin is the alcoholic and Muku and
I may well become these wrong names wrong in which case I apologize, is
the homeless teenager, don't teenager? And then Kyoko is the name they give
to the baby, which is the Japanese translation of silent Night, which also
means pure child. But as you said, it's not like it doesn't feel
like a Christian movie for it. It feels like these characters who are encountering
a Christmas folklore the way that as people who encounter like a lot of different
folklores in their life. You know, a lot I can say about that.
But Abbie, first, why don't you time me? What was your
take on this movie? Well, if the movie I chose was the lightest
thing in the world. This was maybe the hard opposite to me. It
was, you know, it tugged on the heartstrings hard. I will say.
You know, as a Jew, I probably missed a lot of the
Christmas story illusions that were going on there. My experience with the Wise Man
is like singing the when they saw the Star choire. That's about it.
But I really the movie. I thought it was like heartfelt and it was
nice to see these characters kind of get that redemption and figure out their stories.
Yeah, but at the same time, watching people be sad is not
always the most fun Christmas movie for me. It's a rough movie. I
mean, there's there's ideation, there's suicidal ideation. There's a big part of
the movie there there's a lot of depression. There's a lot of really bad
fighting and and discussion of just the horrible things these people have done in the
past. So yeah, I it. I can't imagine this being another one
of those feel good movies I want to watch, but I do think it's
a very wonderful Christmas story. I also feel like and Abby your comments were
interesting on this. I don't know much about the person who wrote who who
wrote this, but I do know that you know, there are Christians in
Japan, and I think but the like, these three characters aren't Christian necessarily.
They're just going to a nativity because that's where they can be warm and
get food, because there's a church that's doing that. And I in some
ways, I feel like this is one of the only movies I think that
could get away with having this much of the religious aspects of Christmas because it's
told from me in a community that is not Christianity is the overculture the way
it is here in the United States. Yeah, I think there's an interesting
Yeah, there's an interesting element that with that, for sure, and I
think at the same time, I think that there's something really interesting with the
the choice of the characters that that con uses here that allows it to kind
of reflect I think what, you know, a lot of people, certainly
the three of us, you know, would argue that the idea of Christmas
is one of welcoming you know, all kinds, all people, and it's
it's a very it's you know, a love that embraces everybody you know,
and that's you know, the idea of the whole thing with religion that's kind
of been I don't want to Uh, it's it's kind of gone down different
roads, let's just say. And and that's something that I think even with
characters that aren't you know, that aren't Christians, that are not what you'd
expect in a story like this, I think that it certainly isn't going to
be something that's going to play on Cannas Cameron's network, but it's it is
the sort of thing that I think still allows it to end up feeling more
you know, welcoming overall to just you know, so many It just it
feels like like a much bigger hug. Uh. You know, it's grasping
so many more types of people than you normally would get in in some Christmas
stories, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things
that did pull me in was the fact that Hannah was queer, because I
am queer and was not expecting that in this end of story. Yeah yeah,
one of the things I loved most. There's maybe cry so much during
the movie, and I may tear up again. One complaint I sometimes have
about Christmas movies is they're very much about family. They specifically mean blood family,
and I think that can kind of leave out sometimes the families of choice
that many of us build, sometimes just because we're distant from our physically distant
from our family, but a lot of times because we're emotionally distant, either
in small or very large or you know, completely cut off from our families,
and particularly in queer communities. That has meant so much. And so
when Hannah, excuse me, I'm sorry, when Hannah goes to the club
that she used to perform at Angel Tower and meets her mama, and it's
very clear that this is not her biological mother, but this is within trans
women, particularly drag clean societies, and the movie the TV show Drag is
a great decription of this. I'm sorry, pose Uh, the mama is
often just an older, also trans woman who adopts younger people, uh,
queer queer kids and and and both trans women and queer men and everyone.
And to have that be honored as family as her family, it meant so
much to me, and that that felt like such a like, yeah,
that family connection is just as powerful at Christmas time and is one that we've
that that when all you're seeing is blood relatives, I think you can feel
really left out of And I just thought that was like such because it wasn't
made a huge deal of It was just like, this is her mama,
and I just loved that so so much. That. Yeah, that that
connection that you have there with I mean, I think it's exactly what you
just said. It's it's these people that you that become your family and they
are there. That bond is so important and it doesn't matter who it is,
how they came into your life, just the fact that there is that
bond there. And we certainly also have it with the three or three characters,
you know, the three homeless people, you know, and that connection
that they each have with each other, and the draw and you know,
at the very end, you get that reconnection between the young girl and her
dad who's the police officer, and and all of these different stories. I
mean, it's just it's so full of these connections. And again it's just
it's like welcoming all of them and they are they're all equal, and that's
what I think is powerful about it. Two other just quick things. Have
you ere anything else you want to add on that? No, I think
what you've both said has covered pretty much everything I felt about it. Yeah,
two other quick things I'll add about the theological side, of it one
just like a small thing. But that I really loved is that there is
one small kind of like supernaturalist moment in the story, but it feels very
magic realism, and maybe it's just a very lucky coincidence, but basically like
when there's this you know, horrible moment where the baby is falling and Hannah
leaps after the baby to try and catch her, this wind comes up and
catches them in the awning, and it's I think it's supposed to be kind
of like a Christmas miracle of some sorts. And what I loved about that
is, like, sure there's lots of like Christian Christmas miracle stories, but
in Japan, the idea of a sacred wind, like the wind itself in
particular, being a locus of miracleness. This is something I know very only
a very little bit about, so please correct me if I get the details
wrong. But I looked at this little more and make sure I had some
of the ideas right. Like even the term kamakazi, which is, you
know, we associate just with these Japanese pilots. It's a reference to a
wind that in the destroyed a fleet that was supposed to be invading Japan in
the Middle Ages, and that was the idea, was that these pilots would
be a new version of that. But that's just one example of like divine
wind being a very important thing in Japanese mythology often, and so the idea
that was a Christmas miracle, but in a way that has nothing to do
with Christianity, and it's very much more about the aspects of Japan. I
just thought that was really beautiful, that is, yeah, and I didn't
know, I guess thinking about some other you know, anime and other Japanese
films, I see that in there now. I guess it's just something you
know, I've never really looked into very much. But you know, I'm
glad that you looked into that and pointed that out, because that's actually a
really interesting element. I just kind of took it as that magical realism element,
but coming from the Japanese culture that way makes it all the more powerful
and interesting that they did it that way. Definitely, the last thing I'll
say, and this is kind of a nice segue into my movie that I
want to do, which will do pretty quickly. The only other critique I
often have, especially some of the older holiday movies is that it always feels
like everything is so perfect, like even in Home Alone, where they literally
leave a kid behind. They're in this like very nice, affluent, wealthy
family and that's often what Christmas look like, which to me like watching my
mother with holes in her shoes go out into the snow to buy us gifts
like didn't relate to. And I really love the idea that this is.
This is about Christmas in the midst of brokenness, which is both I think,
just a wonderful, like completely secular idea, but also as a part
of the Christmas story that the evangelical like Christ is King and glory and all
of this forgets It's supposed to be about these like two starving teenagers who can't
find any room anywhere and are literally homeless when they give birth. And so
I just thought that was just a really beautiful thing and just about the idea
of like the Christmas magic in the midst of the brokenness. My favorite Christmas
movie is hands down Them Up at Christmas, Carol. I think it is
just a phenomenal movie all overall. But the one I pick because it's probably
my second favorite, is Scrooged if you haven't seen it, scrooged. It's
a Bill Murray movie. It's a nineteen eighties movie. In some ways,
it's a wonderful movie. In some ways, it hasn't aged very well,
I'm sure, and it's a much harsher telling of the Christmas Carol story.
There's a lot of meanness in it, but it is. It is exactly
the Christmas Carol story. There's the three ghosts, and it's all this kind
of meta story because it's about this TV executive who's producing a version of Christmas
Carol, but then his own version of it happens. And I just really
love it because it's like I am, at heart, someone who has a
very idealistic core and really loves everything about Christmas, but is also deeply,
deeply cynical, and so to have like that core of a beautiful movie wrapped
up in all the cynicism in New yorkness of this movie, I just absolutely
love. It's a fun movie. I haven't seen it in a very very
long time. I saw it in the theaters when it came out. I
probably saw it in one other time after that, and then I just hadn't
seen it. I always remembered it was there. I love the music.
Danny Elfman's score is fantastic, but it's just something that has kind of it's
always sat there as like, yeah, that's another version of screwed of you
know, a Christmas tale story. And Bill Murray is you know Bill Murray's
he's funny. He plays that the awful you know TV exact perfectly, like
he's great, just like he you know, that's kind of the same character
he's playing at the start of groundhog Day. Really and yeah, I mean
there are elements that now you're like, you know, you kind of roll
your eyes out a little bit. But on the whole, I think one
of the things that I enjoyed so much about it is it's it's an adaptation
of a Christmas carol that also is tying in so many things that I remember
growing up as a as a child of the seventies and eighties, where you
have all of these like kind of cheesy Christmas specials on TV, like they're
doing their whole thing is they're doing this live broadcast and tying that into the
story, and just how commercialized Christmas is becoming and everything and all the celebrity
cameos that you have, like, you know, Mary lou Retten is tidy
dim doing her little backflips and everything like, it's just it. Those were
elements that I had forgotten. And you know, I love the story of
a Christmas Carol. This is another version of it. It's it's not my
favorite version of it, but I had a lot of fun with that,
so I was glad to revisit it. I hear that, Abby, I
guess, yeah, so say if my movie made me smile and Andy's made
me cry, Matthew's yours made me want to yell. I really hate a
Christmas Carol stories so much. I think that they are bad and their little
lesson is bad. I have. I've had enough of watching rich white guys
get saved by acknowledging the poor. Uh huh, that's very fair. That's
very fair that there is. Like as much as I love even I'm up
at Christmas Carol, there's a very condescending attitude I think often of, like
I have come to lower myself to be with you. All that is in
all of the versions. Yeah yeah, and also so go ahead. Sorry,
The story itself just doesn't lend itself to having interesting female characters, and
I think Scrooged was definitely affected by that. That's very fair. Yeah,
very of its era. Yeah, generally there's just the love interest that he
lost, and that's and then maybe his mother, and those are the only
female characters that ever show up. That's really fair. Yeah, at least
we got the aggressive ghost of Christmas present. Yes, so good played by
I. I know the woman because she's been in so much. She's Carol
Kane. Carol Kane, thank you. Yes, the wife up of the
Wonder Wonder Worker and Princess Bride. And yeah, it's you know, I'm
glad that you brought that up, Abby, because that I mean, I
absolutely do love the story of Christmas. Carol is just something that I've grown
up with and I really enjoy. But I would I think that it's so
important to acknowledge some of the the elements within that story that like people nowadays
should take that as a challenge to say, how could we take this story
and crafted into something that is more inclusive and that it's it's not just about
this rich, rich white guy, but do something else with the story.
And I think that's actually a really interesting thing that I have, Like I
am thinking now through all the different versions of the story I've seen it,
I'm like, nobody's really done that, and think that would actually be worth
exploring and something that could make for a valuable modernized retelling of that that would
you know, work for more people than just you know, the people who
connect with that original story, because certainly I think that this I think it
has become very much the focus is on Ebenezer Squezer Ebenezer Scrooge as a rich
man. It has been pointed out that the wealth disparity between Ebenezer Scrooge and
Bob Cratchit is far smaller than between, for example, Jeff Bezos and the
lowest paid Amazon worker Bob cratch It is much better paid, and Ebenezer Scrooge
is nowhere near as rich. But but yeah, I think there are the
kind of larger ideas of like you can still change and do better than you
have in the past, and that you can like I even mentioned the poor.
But to me, one of the biggest meetings of Christmas is the idea
of abundance, and there's theology to it, but it's also the idea of
like in times of scarcity, it's very easy to fall into the idea of
I have to get mine and you go get yours, and I don't care
about you. But instead the idea of like we're going to build a table
together instead of building walls between us is to me very much of both a
theological and a secular idea of Christmas time that the Christmas Carol story I think
can point to. And it doesn't have to be about a rich white guy,
you know, it could be about someone else who has abundance in their
life in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be interesting. So much
more we could say on this topic. So I just want to let each
of you if you have kind of a last Christmas thought Christmas movie thought to
share, and then also just let us know kind of where we can find
more of your stuff. So Abby, I'll start with you. Yeah,
I'll just say, give the stupid Hallmark movies a try, even if you
think it's not your thing. Give it a hate watch, you know,
mock it relentlessly. Sometimes they're fun and they'll light in your day. So
that is my last Christmas movie thought. On the internet. You can't really
find me anywhere. You can follow me on I was gonna say Twitter,
but x whatever at clutching my pearls pearl spelled p u r ls. Maybe
if people follow me, I'll actually start tweeting. Yeah, I will never
dead name a human being, no matter how horrible they are. I will
happily dead name Twitter. It is Twitter, it remains Twitter, and I'll
just say I will echo check out Hallmark movies. But also, if you're
gonna do it, you're worried about it, have someone either watching it with
you live or like, you know, watching with you that you can text
about it, because, as Abby pointed out, I think being able to
a little bit like roll your enjoying the bad parts as well as enjoying the
good parts, I think actually makes the movies a lot better. And being
able to be like it's okay if I think this blot point is really contrived?
Right, and Abby, when you're like yeah, no, no,
no, no, I love this movie, but that's a ridiculous reason for
two people who man at each other like that helped make it a lot better
for me to watch. Andy, what's your kind of last thoughts here?
You know, I mean it's I do think that the danger of Christmas movies
can be that they fall into a lot of the same tropes, and I
mean there are a lot of even even outside of like the Hallmark Lifetime World,
there are a lot of holiday movies that I don't even bother watching.
Like I see the trailer and I'm like that they're just playing on all the
same old tropes. They're not doing anything unique and different. And that's I
think, like, why do you have to, like, you know,
just tap into all that stuff again, do something a little more interesting,
and so like looking for things like Tokyo Godfathers, which you know, just
like once I saw it, it's just like burned into my brain. Is
like there's a unique telling of something that is, for you know, a
Christmas story that that feels different, and that's that's what I really enjoy.
So there are plenty of them out there, you know. And again,
you know, as a fan of horror movies, you know, Christmas horror
movies are awfully fun. And you know, even even with the bad parts,
you know, I still had a great time with Violent Night, and
so yeah, you know, you know the debate about Christmas movies, is
it a Christmas movie, is it not a Christmas movie? I think that's
just part of the fun and the point is that you're watching stuff together and
enjoying and I think that's the key thing. So and where can we find
you? Yeah, you know, I podcast over a True Story FM.
I'm on the next reel. We do movie podcasts over there. I'm also
doing one called Movies We Like, where we bring on somebody from the industry
and talk with them about one of their favorite movies. And yeah, and
so you know, you can check me out there. I'm on a lot
of the socials as Soda Creek Film, So you can find me over there.
And yeah, I think that pretty much covers it. Yeah, I
really echo what you're saying there. I think one thing I've realized is that
for me, the commercial commercialization of Christmas is something I've always really had a
problem with. Part of that is because like my own theology, but even
putting that aside, like as a kid of divorced parents who had very different
economic backgrounds, watching my mother feel like she had to compete with my father
of who would give the best holiday gifts. He gave Hanukah gifts. But
you know, so I've always did like a lot of the Santa Claus elf,
like any movie that's about the gift getting side of things, and I've
heard ELF is much better, and I'll give it a try one day,
but I've mostly stayed away from those. But yeah, you know, we
all get to enjoy whatever we want to enjoy about Christmas movies, and I
think that's awesome. I will just say that. Of course, Andy,
you may well know, not only for all the awesome stuff Andy does,
but the True Story podcast, True Story FM podcast network is what this podcast
and my other podcast, Star Wars Generations are proud members of. Andy will
give me a dirty look because I should have said this at the very beginning,
but you can become a member of my podcasts from only five dollars a
month fifty five dollars a year. It's a great Christmas present for someone in
your life you're looking for something by him a way in your membership. They
get bonus, they get ad free content, they get bonus content. We're
gonna do a little bit about that at the end of this about other holiday
movies, but mostly you just get to know you're supporting us. This is
a labor of love. But you know, the Internet, the microphones,
the hosting, like all of it costs some money and the time and effort
and getting all these great guests. I'd love to be able to thank them
a little bit more. And so every membership that you guys give, not
only does it just help physically and monetarily make this possible, but it's such
a great reminder to me and to the folks who are helping me at True
Story that you really care about these podcasts. And so if you do,
like I said, it's just five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a
year really be a great thing. All the information is on the show notes,
or you can just search for the Ethical Pana dot com and I'll take
you right there and there again. Also you find all the other stuff about
this podcast. My other podcast, Star Wars Generations, has really had a
great reboot. We will not be talking about the Star Wars Holiday special.
I did that once, I'll never do it again. But we are going
to be talking a little bit about a twenty twenty three wrap up of like
what Happened a Year in Star Wars, which will be a lot of fun.
So please check out all those things, check out all the other great
podcasts that Andy and Pete and others are doing on the true Story FM Network.
If you're a member, stick around for some more bonus content. In
just a second, we have spoken