WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:13.720 Hello, and welcome to the special Holiday edition of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. 2 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:19.480 Today, we are talking about one of the most controversial ethics ridden always a 3 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:24.399 debate about it genre of movies, the Christmas movie. We're gonna be discussing 4 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:27.480 what is a Christmas movie, what are some of our favorite or least favorite 5 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:31.679 examples, what needs to happen or shouldn't need to happen? And why is 6 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:38.600 this such an incredibly strong genre for one particular holiday of one particular religion in 7 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.679 this country and to some extent all around the world. And joining me, 8 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:46.479 I have two different experts. First of all, I have Abbi Nyman, 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.880 who has been on this podcast a number of times before and is a Christmas 10 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.640 movie expert extraordinaire. Abbe you want to say hello and just give a little 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.280 bit of your background. Hi, I don't know that I would go with 12 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:03.000 Christmas movie extraordinay, but certainly a Hallmark movie, a fishnado Okay, Well, 13 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.120 that's a very particular shub genre that often has thought of as part of 14 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.239 the You know that how that plays in the large genre is very much the 15 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:14.239 topic what we're getting into. And uh Andy, what is uh I think 16 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.599 of you? As just a film guru, say it about who you are 17 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:19.439 and what your perspective is. Yeah, I, you know, as a 18 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.840 passionate lover of film, you know, with you know, our film podcasting 19 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:26.760 that we do over on the next reel and all of our shows. I 20 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:32.920 see such a wide variety of of movies. And I certainly do and always 21 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:38.640 have loved Christmas movies. But as as I've gotten older, and I guess 22 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:42.480 as the genre has broadened in so many ways, I do find that I'm 23 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:48.400 I'm you know, I I have a particular I like a lot of them. 24 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.560 I just don't I'm not like any Christmas movie I'll take. But I 25 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:55.680 do like quite a variety, and I always like that it does create such 26 00:01:55.680 --> 00:02:00.319 a such a variety of interesting debates. I mean, you know, I 27 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:06.879 grew up in a loosely religious household. I guess that's fair to say loosely, 28 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:13.000 you know, Christian based household, never very strong, and certainly is 29 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:19.560 something that's faded in my life as I've as I've grown, I to the 30 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:23.280 point where I wouldn't even call myself religious. I not being said, I 31 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:31.960 think that there It's what I enjoy about the season itself is that it just 32 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:38.000 is a warm and welcoming season that feels like it's something that's you know, 33 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.879 it's close to the end of the year, and so that paired with New 34 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:50.520 Year's always feel like a period to like, you know, reflect and you 35 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.680 know, be surrounded by friends and family and gear up for the big shift 36 00:02:54.759 --> 00:03:00.319 that is the new year and all of those solutions that you have and all 37 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.599 that sort of stuff. So I suppose that's kind of my draw to it 38 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.960 still, you know. I mean, we still hang some decorations up on 39 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:13.280 the house and things like that. I'm very minimal compared to many people these 40 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:16.599 days, but it's one of those things where it's just there's a vibe that 41 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.680 I think, you know, we've always kind of connected with. Yeah, 42 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:24.520 well, and I love what you said because I think you're getting at something 43 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:28.400 that I think is actually a very important part of you know, the question 44 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.159 of Christmas in general, but especially of Christmas movies and also like music and 45 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:36.319 how big a role it plays in our culture and we say our United States, 46 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.840 but also in many parts of the world certainly not all though, which 47 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:43.199 is that for many people, Christmas is now much more of a secular holiday, 48 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.240 and that it is you know, it kind of has these religious overtones, 49 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.039 but it's much more about family and togetherness and generosity and light and hope 50 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:55.360 in the midst of darkness and sadness and things like that, and kind of 51 00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:00.280 give my own background. I am a Christian. I'm a religious par center 52 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:02.120 person of faith. It used to be a pastor. And I've always had 53 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:06.599 kind of a weird relationship to Christmas media from the other perspective, which is 54 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:12.639 that for me, this holiday is a very, very theological one and I 55 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:16.439 absolutely don't care if anybody else doesn't, you know, appreciate that, Like, 56 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.360 no one has to celebrate my religious holiday by any means. And I 57 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:26.120 love that everybody has a holiday about gift giving and secularness and trees and all 58 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.040 this. But it's always been kind of weird to me that all this stuff 59 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.120 that I know is the basis of the holiday, which again I don't ever 60 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.680 want to like, we shouldn't have a public holiday that's out there, that's 61 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.759 all Like Jesus is born, everyone in the country has to care about it, 62 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.040 but I certainly care about it, and so it's always been a little 63 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.360 weird to me that all these movies are much more about like the one level 64 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.439 of derivation or even two or three levels of derivation from that. And thus 65 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.360 I think it is very funny that one of the movies that we watched to 66 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:55.959 get ready for this is the one of the most theological movies that I've seen 67 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.399 a very long time about Christmas from a source I would have never did it 68 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:02.639 from which we'll get to you when we talk about our own individual movies. 69 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:08.279 But so that's why. But I certainly have always loved Christmas movies, I 70 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.120 think, particularly those that I think, while not in any way being explicitly 71 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:14.879 and it's not again, I don't want there to be mass market movies that 72 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:17.439 are Christian, Like my faith is my faith and should not be what everyone 73 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.319 has to deal with. But it's just weird to me that there's stuff based 74 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:26.199 on my faith. But not really. But I do love the like the 75 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:30.240 messages that often of the season of like family coming together or of like you 76 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.240 know, the you know generosity. As one of my favorite memes of this 77 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:40.279 time is that the the Christmas Carol perfectly captures the Christmas spirit, which is 78 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:44.040 that billionaires must be supernaturally terrified in order to be nice to their workers, 79 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.680 you know, but like, you know, whatever it is, I love 80 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:50.199 that. So so let's actually start there, and Amy, I'll start with 81 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.079 you, what is a Christmas movie? What what makes something a Christmas movie? 82 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:57.839 I mean, it's always such a debate, and you know, there 83 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.639 are there are movies that are clearly obviously Christmas movies, you know, things 84 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:06.800 that involve Santa Claus or you know, people coming together and like the family. 85 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:13.360 And I think when you think of Christmas movies that are like definitive Christmas 86 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.839 movies, it's the setting. It takes place, like during the season. 87 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:23.959 It's a story about family and relationships. It often involves actual like Christmas elements 88 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:29.319 that we kind of tie into it, whether secular or religious, you know, 89 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.600 but just usually it's it's the movies tend to be a little more on 90 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:38.160 the secular side as far as like it's about Santa Claus and the reindeer on 91 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.639 the roof and hanging up Christmas lights and things like that, and I think 92 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.839 that's kind of I don't know where I would go with kind of your typical 93 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.399 Christmas movie. And they certainly come in all shapes and sizes. You know. 94 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:56.360 You look at something like Christmas Vacation, which takes the vacation franchise and 95 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:02.639 ties the comedy of the Griswolds into family, but it's very specifically their Christmas 96 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:08.600 story. And then you have you know, broader ones that kind of explore 97 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.680 things like Elf and you know, it's I mean, there's a lot of 98 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.639 comedy with those, and there's romantic comedy, and you know, there certainly 99 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.079 is the drama ones and things like Miracle on thirty fourth straight about you know, 100 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:27.040 reinforcing your belief in Santa Claus. And so that's I think for me, 101 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.720 I'd say the definitive, easy to define, easy checkbox, even easy 102 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.040 checkbox Christmas, you know, as opposed to things like Diehard, which, 103 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:42.040 as you brought up, brings so much more debate into it. Abby. 104 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.160 What about for you? What makes something at Christmas movie? Yeah, I 105 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.279 think kind of along the same lines. To me, it's the plot has 106 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:54.600 to be affected by it being Christmas, whether that's a story about Santa or 107 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.839 you know, have people hanging up the lights on their house or whatever. 108 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:05.920 It's there has to be some connection to Christmas other than this is a movie 109 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.720 happening at Christmas, and the fact that it's happening at Christmas makes absolutely no 110 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:18.160 difference. A'll a die Hard so for you, so that can be a 111 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.240 start to get into question. So for you, something like die Hard or 112 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:24.639 Batman returns, those are not Christmas movies because they just they have this sort 113 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.720 of accoutrement of Christmas, but the christmasness isn't a fundamental part of the movie. 114 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:35.360 Yes, are we starting our debates now or should we save that for 115 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:39.840 I think let's let's here. Here's the way I want to get into it. 116 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.080 I want us to try and go through and see if we can name 117 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.480 and then discuss a bit what we think the different subgenres of Christmas movies are. 118 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.879 And I think when we I think one of the possible subgenres is movies 119 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:58.519 that just take place at Christmas time. And so that's when we can get 120 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.879 into that one. Sure, So let me kind of just throw some out 121 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:03.840 and then you all can also add ones that you don't think I have, 122 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:05.320 but also just let's talk about each one as I name them. So, 123 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:07.960 first of all, I think kind of the most basic is what you're talking 124 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.440 about. Andy. I think your definition actually named a couple ones, but 125 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.679 I'll kind of try to summarize those quickly. I think there is the family 126 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.960 coming together because the family or the friends or someone like that are celebrating Christmas, 127 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:28.919 and the spirit of Christmas is like a part of that. A second 128 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.039 thing I think you mentioned is the you know, the movie is about the 129 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.879 sort of characterizations that have been built up around Christmas, and that's Santa Claus 130 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.080 and Elves and some of the other kind of like maybe supernaturally things around that. 131 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.000 And then a third one that I mentioned, and we'll kind of start 132 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:54.639 with these three is basically retellings of either a Christmas Carol or It's a Wonderful 133 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.279 Life, which I think at this point kind of constitutes its own subgenre with 134 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.159 a lot of overlap. We're thoughts on those three. Did those three like 135 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.919 make sense? You all are genres? Yeah, I mean I think so. 136 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:13.240 I think there's there. I mean, I mean, even just looking 137 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.080 at film genres in general and then going okay, can I apply these over 138 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.000 to Christmas movies and then I think, yes, you can see how they're 139 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.279 they do kind of fit in with those different things, you know. I 140 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.360 mean, I think, I mean there are certainly more examples. You know, 141 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.960 there are very religious Christmas films, things like the Nativity Story, I 142 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:37.519 mean those also exist a genre that we're probably not gonna spend too much time 143 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:39.120 talking about, as fun as it is, but there are plenty of horror 144 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.399 Christmas films, which yep, you know, I just watched Violent Night last 145 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.320 night and had a wonderful time with it. And and so there's also Sorry, 146 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.039 and you know, musicals, animated films. I mean, there's so 147 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.240 many different ways that you can approach this, but I think, you know, 148 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.679 in the broad scope, like there's the comedy, the drama. You 149 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.440 know, there there's a few of those that I think will work well. 150 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:07.480 And yeah, I think I think you're right. The telling of you know, 151 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.960 Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol has become so key in just kind of Christmas 152 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:18.879 lore. Let's just say that it almost is a genre as like into its 153 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.320 own, as you said, like, there are so many versions of it, 154 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.639 reiterations of it, even something like I'm blanking on the name of it. 155 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:33.240 But the Will Ferrell Ryan Reynolds one that just came out last year is 156 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:37.720 in some way another version of that, where you know, the character actually 157 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:39.720 is Eben User Scrooge later in life, you know, and things like that. 158 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:48.399 So it's it's interesting how that really has become so defining of kind of 159 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:54.039 the Christmas character arc really right, And there are certainly a lot of There 160 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.440 are certainly a lot of retellings of a Christmas Carol out there, but I 161 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:05.480 feel like the category should be maybe larger to also encompass like Christmas lore in 162 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.639 general, because you get a lot of movies about like how Santa became a 163 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:15.279 thing, like Klaus, or like Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Those are 164 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.879 all very connected to Christmas, and you see a lot of retellings or different 165 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.519 interpretations, but they aren't a Christmas Carol. One thing I was thinking is 166 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.279 I mentioned It's a Wonderful Life as part of this, and certainly I don't 167 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:31.759 know if this is still true, but it used to be that starting around 168 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.840 December fifth, there was never a point in the twenty four hours of the 169 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.440 day every day from that until Christmas, but there wasn't at least one channel 170 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:46.679 showing It's a Wonderful Life. And as I think about it, I can 171 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.919 think of numerous TV shows that have had a character have sometimes very explicitly, 172 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.240 sometimes kind of as a parody, their own version of the It's a Wonderful 173 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:01.279 Life Christmas Story. I don't know that many moves have there been movies that 174 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.720 you all can think of that are retellings of its Wonderful Life where people kind 175 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.360 of thought, like Jimmy Stewart did best and let's just leave it alone. 176 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.559 Well, I mean there's as you know, as we were recording this, 177 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:16.159 there's a brand new one that has just been released called It's a Wonderful Knife, 178 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.440 which is it's the it's the horror comedy version of that that's made by 179 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:26.039 the people who did like the New Freaked, you know, and the kind 180 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.759 of like this, there's that group of people who's taking like some classic genres 181 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:33.879 like they did the Groundhog Day and now that's Happy Death Day, and they're 182 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:39.679 turning these these great like key films and turning them into horror. And so 183 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.279 that's the newest one. I'm trying to think if there are any other abby 184 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.919 you might know of some I'm trying to think of any I can't really think 185 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:52.919 of any movies. Yeah, I can come up with like probably five to 186 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:56.279 ten TV shows off the top of my head. But mm hmm. Yeah, 187 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:58.879 and some way they did it quite seriously, married with children, did 188 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:03.360 it a parody of it where Sam Kinnison is the angel, which is hilarious. 189 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.720 I think like Faturama have done it. But yeah, not too many 190 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.759 movies. Oh you know, actually, would you say the Nicholas Cage movie 191 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:16.600 The Family Man? That's my recollection of that one is kind of similar, 192 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.600 Like, yeah, I guess he's remembering or he sees a different version of 193 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:26.039 his life where he's married because he was a like a stone cold businessman sort 194 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:30.360 of thing. That's one that comes to mind, the only one that's actually 195 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:31.919 coming to my mind right now. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. 196 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:37.200 That's fair. I'll also mention goo ahead, go ahead, I'll say 197 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.320 I'll also mention as another subgenre that prodactly explore too much. But it's worth 198 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.120 naming because as far as I can tell, it's fairly recent. I think 199 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.879 Arnold Schwarzenegger started it. But it is the it's Christmas Eve and you haven't 200 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.679 bought your child the perfect toy yet, and so now you're fighting with other 201 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:58.000 parents to get the last version of the g I Joe Doll or the Cabbage 202 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.159 Patch Kid or whatever. That is all the way with Schwarzenegger and Sidbad I 203 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.240 think started that but now there's been like five or six, so I'm willing 204 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.799 to call that a subgenre in and of itself of for a very anti capitalist 205 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:13.919 holiday, perhaps the most like all hail capitalism. But I'm going to keep 206 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.480 my religious thoughts as far fwad as I can. It's the general rating of 207 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:26.159 this podcast. Yeah we can curse. That's fine, okay. I think 208 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.279 that that genre you're mentioning, I think can be again broadened too just Christmas 209 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:35.000 fuck ups, because there's also movies like Christmas with the Cranks and things like 210 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.559 oh what is it called? It's a kids movie where they all get stuck 211 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.120 in an airport over Christmas with no adults, because of course they do, 212 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.720 but it's just generally like Christmas mayhem. Yeah, that's fair for me. 213 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.039 The anti capitalist nest is what makes me focus on the like we have to 214 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.120 buy the perfect thing. But you're right, I think there's a lot of 215 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.720 overlaps there. Let's go come int a genre that probably has always been with 216 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.279 us, but I think has gotten a lot more tension in recent years. 217 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:08.720 Now there's a cable channel mostly dedicated to it, Abby tell Us about the 218 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.360 Christmas romance and Christmas rom com I think he is often it's thought, but 219 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.000 you've had some conversation with me about how Christmas romance might be the more appropriate 220 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.360 term sometimes. Yeah, I mean there's definitely Christmas rom coms, but I 221 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:32.279 do think just Christmas romance is a fairly strong subgenre. The most recent movie 222 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.559 that I can think of was one that was released last year. It's called 223 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:42.159 The Noel Diary, I believe, and the story is all about this man 224 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:48.039 whose mother died and he's going to clean out her hoarder house and in doing 225 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.960 so, he finds a journal and the journal belongs to this reporter's birth mother, 226 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.559 who she never knew, and so they go on this track to meet 227 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:04.160 her birth father from this diary, and it is there are comedic moments in 228 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:11.119 it, but it is very strongly a drama, and like a romance drama, 229 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:15.799 right. And I think there are other stories like that, and they've 230 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:21.680 become very popular, kind of along with like the resurgence of romance novels, 231 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:27.240 especially with like TikTok Book Talk is very into the romance novel, very into 232 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:33.799 the romantic tropes, right, So I can very closely see the connection of 233 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:38.559 why people are suddenly gearing back into this yeah, and talk a little bit 234 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.839 more about that. Why Because the Hallmark movies, especially which I think in 235 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:48.319 somebodys's kind of its own subgenre of the subgenre. You know, the joke 236 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.720 is always that they're incredibly predictable in terms of like there's the stock characters you 237 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.079 have, and it's almost always the big city woman and the small town guy, 238 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.960 although not always is the in Priggies the movie that you had us watch 239 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.319 does not follow that, but he's almost always wearing a plaid shirt and all 240 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.680 that. What do you think it is that that drives the kind of appeal 241 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.039 of these more recently, especially ones where there is so much predictability that I 242 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.559 think often gets made fun of, but as I've gone understand, it is 243 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.960 actually a really positive for those who really love these. Yeah, I think 244 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:22.480 one of the big things about the season, like people were talking like you 245 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.039 guys were talking about of like bringing people together and seeing the light and the 246 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:30.599 darkness. Especially for those of us who live in areas that get real cold, 247 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.000 it is very dark, very cold, very hard to find the happy 248 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.759 and the joy and it just turns into stress. So these Christmas movies are 249 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:49.480 almost a stress free watching experience because you know generally the storyline it's going to 250 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.359 take, and you know that the couple's going to end up together in the 251 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.519 end. Sometimes it's not the couple you expect, but the couple's going to 252 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:03.880 end up together and everyone's going to be happy and celebrate Christmas. So it's 253 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.440 kind of the value of the predict the predictability is itself a virtue of those 254 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.799 in many ways. Yeah, it's like going back and watching your favorite TV 255 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.559 show over and over again. It's just you know what happens, but it's 256 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:21.920 still fun to watch. Any what's your thoughts on this particular sub genre. 257 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.480 Don't know how much you've explored the Hallmark Christmas or even like I will say 258 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.039 the Hallmark but also I mean like Love actually was a huge movie, and 259 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.839 I think that's very much a Christmas romance, Like there's there's certainly been a 260 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.599 lot more big mass market ones as well. Yeah, I mean there's definitely 261 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:41.319 a place for those films and like that that style of romance during the holiday 262 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.960 season. Obviously in the whole idea of Christmas movies, having this element of 263 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:51.039 family relationships, connection, you know, healing, all those sorts of things. 264 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.319 You can you can see how it's really kind of a perfect genre for 265 00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:00.359 a lot of that sort of stuff. I've generally have never really been too 266 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.599 much of a fan of TV movies in general. There are there are some 267 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:10.279 that I really do enjoy. But and the Hallmark movies, like the the 268 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:14.000 phenomenon, Letster's call it, of Hallmark movies, the way that it like 269 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.359 turned into the it's its own behemoth. I don't know, like in the 270 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:21.640 past decade, it seems where it's like as soon as December or Old around, 271 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.440 it was like a new movie a day is really what they seemed to 272 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:30.079 be cranking out. And you know, I mean I enjoy, you know, 273 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.640 being a part of the process. I've I've been involved off and on 274 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.039 in the film industry. I have friends who actually make Hallmark movies right now. 275 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.599 In fact, they just there was it called the Biltmore Christmas or something 276 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.880 like, they just worked on that one which just came out was huge and 277 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.119 a Merry Scottish Christmas, which also is this year. And so now they're 278 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.599 in this point where they're they're basically making Christmas movies around, which I think 279 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.319 is really funny that like they can't get away from Christmas and so anyway. 280 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.839 But I think that the genre in and of itself, though, I think 281 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:07.559 is really interesting one because it I think it has created something that is very 282 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:14.079 consumable, let's just say where it's I mean, they put them out at 283 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.920 such a furious rate that I think it's not really designed anymore to be something 284 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.640 that is watched annually. And that's kind of like Christmas movies. You know, 285 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.119 well, growing up it was a different thing, but even today, 286 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.279 like from my generation, I feel like there's this draw to having those same 287 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.200 movies that we'd all put on every year and like, let's sit around and 288 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.720 watch elf, Let's sit around and watch a Christmas story. Let's watch It's 289 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.279 a wonderful life, you know, And that's I think that for me, 290 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:47.279 that was always a part of the joy of the Christmas movie. But it's 291 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:48.799 kind of like they've taken on a different thing, which is like we're just 292 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:55.079 going to tweak the story over and over again and give people similar versions of 293 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.039 the same story with a lot of the same beats, all the tropes. 294 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.400 There's a little bit of a difference with it, and so it's not necessarily 295 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:08.119 my cup of tea. But that being said, you know, I having 296 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.839 watched the movie that Abby recommended, you know, just as a as a 297 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:17.839 note, I walked into it in a like a low point. I was 298 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.200 not very having a bad day, let's just say when I went in and 299 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.200 watched it, and as much as it didn't click with it, I was 300 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.839 certainly cheered up by the end of it. And so that's I think that 301 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.920 the interesting magic that they've tapped into with them is it doesn't it can be 302 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.880 consumable. You know, it's like a candy cane. It tastes good once 303 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:40.839 it's it's like one and done, and you know, and then you can 304 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:41.799 kind of move on to the next one. And so I find it to 305 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:47.720 be such a fascinating shift that has allowed these movies to kind of propagate in 306 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:52.000 a way where it's different than before, but in a way it's creating the 307 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.319 same feeling. Yeah, I really get that. I think I think Abby 308 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.440 Waite explained it, and any you're adding really helped me to figure them out 309 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.759 more because like one thing I'm thinking of is I kind of have the reverse 310 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.559 of seasonal effective disorders. So I don't know why standing under a giant ball 311 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:08.960 of fire is so much fun for the rest of you but for me having 312 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:14.359 it gone most of the time is great. But I certainly would understand that 313 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:19.839 like Christmas itself, the holiday season itself, like is incredibly stressful. You 314 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.200 have to get the right gift for all people, you know. I think 315 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.799 this is even more so true for parents, but for anybody. You know, 316 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:27.599 what holiday party is you're going to go to, what are you going 317 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:32.799 to say to different people dealing with all the family stress of you know, 318 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.160 either going to be with your family or just like people who aren't. You 319 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:38.079 know, Abby, I love you're talking about, you know, and you're 320 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:42.039 certainly not the only Jewish person who loved these movies. And I've a friend 321 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.680 of mine who asked about this, said, you know, it's the one 322 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.920 way she gets to deal with the fact of, like everyone is telling her 323 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:51.880 about Christmas all season long, something she has no interest in and no participation 324 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.160 in. And here's one way, Like it's a nice escape from the stress. 325 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.759 And so I yeah, I can totally get. That is why it's 326 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.000 a I think as the season has become much more stressful, it seems like 327 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:03.240 that that's at it. That's a big part of why they're so much more 328 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.440 popular as well as I think This is probably a smaller reason, but I 329 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.279 do think it's a thing. I know a lot of folks who like they 330 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.720 go home to see their family and there's hey, mom, how you doing, 331 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.279 It's good to see you, and then once it starts getting around too 332 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.119 well, why don't I have grandkids yet? Or you know, what do 333 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.680 you think about what's happening politically? Oh, let's turn on a movie, 334 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.000 you know, and the Hallmark Christmas movies are just very safe to watch together. 335 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:33.039 And so I think that that can be one more way of just the 336 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.200 like, it can be your own personal way to escape the stress, but 337 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.440 it could also be like, yeah, let's get together as a group and 338 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.839 like we'll do a puzzle together, or we'll watch a Hallmark movie, and 339 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.160 that way we won't we'll remember that we're family who loves each other instead of 340 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.319 people who want to tear each other's throats out because who you voted for last 341 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.519 time, or whatever it is. On that topic, I think it's important 342 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:59.039 to note that like the Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies have been getting more progressive. 343 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.160 We've seen gay characters, we've seen Jewish characters. Sometimes there's a black 344 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:11.359 lead. Very really but it happens. But because of that, there has 345 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.079 been big drama in the Christmas movie world where some of the stars have broken 346 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:22.880 off into form the what is it called the Great American Family Network, which 347 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:29.599 Candace Cameron all right, Kirk Cameron's brother, Kirk Cameron helps support sister. 348 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:36.440 Yeah. Yeah, but they created what is essentially a Christmas a Christian Christmas 349 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:41.640 movie network that upholds and I say this with the largest of air quotes, 350 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:49.759 American family values. AKA, it's very white and very straight. Yeah. 351 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.480 Yeah. And it's funny because any when you were mentioning that there have been 352 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.960 some movies that do mention the religious aspects of Christmas. There have been, 353 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.000 and some that are great, but an awful lot of them, including one 354 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.960 that I know is out in theaters right now that I might watch just so 355 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.559 I can tear apart how horribly inaccurate it is. I mean, to the 356 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.160 folklore of the story. I'm not claiming a big accuracy, but often they're 357 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:17.480 made also by the very conservative parts of the Christian right, and I think 358 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.799 that, you know, it's interesting, there's a whole other thing about that 359 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:25.200 that we can get into. So as a way of talking about this, 360 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.720 like how far did the edges go In terms of what is or isn't a 361 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.480 Christmas movie? Do you think something has to have a message in order to 362 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.319 be a Christmas movie? Does it have to have some kind of like family 363 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.240 is great or you can always change and be a better person. Like I'm 364 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.720 naming some of the kind of morals that a lot of Christmas movies have, 365 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.799 and there are others certainly, you know, but do you think it has 366 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.519 to have something like that to be a Christmas movie? I think the idea 367 00:26:52.720 --> 00:27:00.319 of that lesson that the character undergoes is generally kind of a key part of 368 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.440 it, you know. I think of George Bailey. We've already talked about 369 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.920 Ebenezer Scrooge. You know, there is this element of that character kind of 370 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:15.279 learning that lesson. I mean, it's a it's a story element anyway, 371 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.559 the idea of character arc, you know, of character actually going through a 372 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.920 change, and that's what we're really drawn to. But in a Christmas story, 373 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.759 when we do see that person go through this change of you know, 374 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:32.839 learning that they are important, or learning to give instead of take, you 375 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.440 know, there's I think there's a value to that. I don't know if 376 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:44.240 it's always critical but I do think that that I don't know. For me, 377 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.279 I feel like it's one of those things that really helps it get there. 378 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.400 And you know, I think when you have that list of checkboxes that 379 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.279 you're ticking, they don't all necessarily need to be ticked, but as long 380 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.119 as most are ticked, I think it can fit into the kind of Christmas 381 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.839 genre. That's one that I think, you know, generally, I do 382 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.359 like to see ticked in my Christmas movies, but it's I guess it's not 383 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.680 always there, but I do like that sure. Like you said, it's 384 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:18.920 to me that's an essential part of any movie is having something that you're trying 385 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:25.440 to say. So I don't necessarily consider it a key aspect of a Christmas 386 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:32.480 movie so much as a key aspect of an enjoyable watch experience. That's fair, 387 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.000 That's fair. I think for me the idea that it is a message, 388 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:38.960 but even more specifically that it is a message that I kind of associate 389 00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:42.359 again not necessarily with the religious aspects of Christmas, but the kind of just 390 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:48.640 general like family togetherness, but also like renewal and rebirth and like you can 391 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.920 always start again, you can always make up for the things you have done 392 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.880 the learning to have empathy, and that like giving is better than taking, 393 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.279 and all those kind of things. I think those are for me a cential 394 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.279 to it being a Christmas movie. But I think it's part of the point 395 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:03.720 is that, you know, we all get to see it differently. But 396 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.720 I'm going to use that, Oh, go ahead, I I was just 397 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.400 gonna say, and I think it's it's, you know, like any story, 398 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.200 as we've kind of been saying. But I do think that it's it's 399 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:17.119 key to note that it can be the main character who goes through that transformation, 400 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:22.160 or you can have a story where the main character is already you know, 401 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.880 on the line, let's just say, and by the process of being 402 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:30.519 such a good person in the world, they're the one who's actually changing all 403 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.960 the other characters around them. I'm thinking of something like Arthur Christmas Is where 404 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.240 I was kind of using as a reference point for that. Yeah. No, 405 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.079 I think that's totally makes sense. The segue I was going to do, 406 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:44.720 though, is that as a way to start the debate. I would 407 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.000 like to suggest that I for me, at least a movie being set at 408 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.319 Christmas time is not enough to make it a Christmas movie. So, for 409 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:57.519 example, I would not describe Batman Returns as a Christmas movie. It very 410 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:03.039 much happens a Christmas and it has the aesthetics of Christmas. Absolutely, But 411 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.039 there is a movie in which the two main characters, or the main character 412 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:15.960 and his sidekick, both are people who are estranged from something that they really 413 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.319 care about because of mistakes they've made in the past. One is estranged from 414 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.839 his family, the other is estranged from the part of his career that he 415 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.359 most wants to do. And in the course of the movie, they find 416 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:32.599 ways to learn to be better, to learn to forgive themselves, and to 417 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:38.599 seek forgiveness for those things from the people that they've been disconnected with. And 418 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.759 I'm talking about Diehard. So I would put forward that die Hard is a 419 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:48.720 Christmas movie because it's an action movie, but it holds up the spirit those 420 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:53.160 spirits of Christmas. Debate has been opened. Respond to tell me how wrong 421 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.880 I am, go off on a whole other direction, because I'm my DC 422 00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.599 is not even worth discussing as you would. Well, do you want to 423 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.920 debate four or against first? Because I have a feeling I'll be four, 424 00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:11.839 an abby won't be against. I'll admit it's I've seen die Hard once and 425 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.039 I can't say I was awake through all of it, That's right. I 426 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.240 don't know that I get a full opinion here, I guess Abby, I 427 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:21.400 feel like I'm kind of strupped because I know you and I talked about this 428 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:23.599 before, and you help me. I think, come to the idea that 429 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:27.599 it just being during Christmas time isn't enough to make a Christmas movie. And 430 00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:30.839 what I'm sort of saying is that, like, I agree with that, 431 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.440 but that one of the movies I think that has often thought of that way. 432 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:34.720 Die Hard, I actually do think is more of a Christmas movie than 433 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.880 people give a credit for. So maybe it's not a debate, it's a 434 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.319 three way discussion. Andy, where are you? And all this? You 435 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:48.119 know, I it's a film that I think because it does have the kind 436 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:52.400 of the family values, it's a broken family that feels like through the process 437 00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:59.200 of this traumatic situation that they go through, they are brought back together. 438 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:05.359 I feel like they're is this reconnection that we have between John and his wife 439 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:08.440 by the time we get to the end of the film, and so that 440 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:13.160 to me, you know, feels like we're learning some lessons we have Al 441 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:17.359 who kind of goes through his own growth because of his conversations with John and 442 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.359 and getting past some issues that he's had. I mean, again, it 443 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:27.480 ties into general film characters, journeys that we have. But because it is 444 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.880 this story of you know, it's a Christmas Eve party. I don't know 445 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.559 why they're having any Christmas Eve, but they are. It's a Christmas Eve 446 00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:38.519 party. It's all like, the music has Christmas elements in it. Everything 447 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:45.240 feels very tied into Christmas. John McLean has some great Christmas one liners that 448 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.599 he throws out, Now I have a gun ho ho ho, you know, 449 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.559 things like that that I think it just feels like they're they're pulling on 450 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:59.720 Christmas in a really fun way. That sure, it is an R rated 451 00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:04.839 action action film with tons of action and blood and violence that you don't normally 452 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.319 associate with a Christmas film. But I do think that it is that that 453 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:12.759 family connection that we end up growing into toward the end of the film that 454 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.359 does, for me help it really kind of be defined as a Christmas film. 455 00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:20.599 Like, you know, I am being a little bit tongue in cheek 456 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:23.440 here. I'm not saying that the slaughter of this movie is very much in 457 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:29.160 line with the celebration of the birth of the Prince of Peace and Andy. 458 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.759 When you mentioned the kind of the feel good like it's Christmas time, so 459 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:36.799 it's time to watch these movies, I was very troubled that you didn't mention 460 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.039 them up at Christmas Carol during that, But I assume that you meant to. 461 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:43.720 You just didn't get a chance. But it's not gonna be one of 462 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:45.200 those movies to me. I'm just saying I think it's a little more of 463 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:50.000 a Christmas movie than some people might give it credit for. Well, it's 464 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.920 funny because I mean Bruce Willis himself said it's not a Christmas movie as it 465 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:55.920 got damn Bruce Willis movie, which is very funny. And you know, 466 00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:01.880 as a franchise, typically in a franchise you would have if it's a Christmas 467 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.400 movie like it would continue developing with Christmas movies. None of the sequels, 468 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.400 I mean, the second ones that The Wind in Winter, but it's not 469 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.760 really defined as a Christmas story so much as the first one is, you 470 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.559 know, and I say all of that. It's the same thing with the 471 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:24.679 the you know, Christmas Vacation, which is very much I think a Christmas 472 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:30.800 movie. But it's not like any of those other Griswold films have have felt 473 00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.000 the need to go Christmas. So it's I mean, it is hard to 474 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.719 I think this is just these are all elements that give it the the endless 475 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:43.559 debate is this going to be a Christmas film or not? And you know, 476 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.639 I'm okay with the debate because I think that's part of the fun of 477 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:49.920 the whole thing. I think, you know, when you're kind of sick 478 00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.519 of other parts, you know, like, hey, Grandpa, stop talking 479 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.039 about Trump. What do you mean the Christmas movie? Like, that's a 480 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:59.400 good one to segue. We can go a lot deeper on this, but 481 00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.760 I want to talk about the individual movies each one of us had us watch, 482 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:06.119 because I think that they're they're gonna bring up a lot of the same 483 00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.679 discussions we're having. But Gillen more specific. Abby, let's start with yours. 484 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:15.039 Tell us a little bit about the Enchanted Christmas Cake. Okay, So 485 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:20.719 I picked this movie because I remembered watching it last year and thinking this is 486 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:27.320 such a fun, stupid romp. There's nothing serious happening here, It's just 487 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:35.519 silliness. Basic storyline is this woman, her grandmother dies, she's taking over 488 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:39.199 the bakery. But this grandma has this epic love story with her husband where 489 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:45.079 they fall in love with this enchanted Christmas cake. And so the woman is 490 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:52.519 trying to create, recreate this Christmas cake that her grandmother has become famous for 491 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:59.320 just in time for Christmas, to keep her bakery afloat. And she is 492 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:05.199 met by a movie or a TV producer who's kind of unhappy with his job 493 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.400 and who they just genuinely like each other. So they hang out and then 494 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:22.519 they solve the mystery just because like there's there's so little drama in this movie. 495 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:28.800 Yeah, it's just let's bake cake. Mm hmm. Yeah. It's 496 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.960 sort of like proof of concept of the Hallmark movie. I thought it was 497 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:35.400 a great example, you know, it's it had some fun moments, the 498 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.480 conflict between once the couple has established they want to be together, but now 499 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:44.079 they have to have a will they won't. They felt ridiculously contrived to I 500 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.280 roll worthy levels, But I think that's kind of the point. Like one 501 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:50.360 thing I've kind of learned is that even among the people who really really love 502 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.760 these laughing at the silly moments, he's kind of part of the joy. 503 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:58.440 You know, there's very I don't think there's anyone out there being like Hallmark 504 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.280 movies should be OSCAR nominated, like I love them for that reason. No, 505 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.360 the hate Watch is definitely a part of it. I could see it, 506 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:09.639 and I guess I imagine that the writers and actors know that, you 507 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:13.039 know, because everything just seems a little over the top. But you know, 508 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.559 I watched it. It made me think happy thing. As you said, 509 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:17.559 you know, Andy, it's kind of hard not to smile after it. 510 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.880 I really wanted cake at the end of it, which is not the 511 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.400 best thought for me to be having it one o'clock in the afternoon, but 512 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:27.559 it definitely put it there. Yeah, it felt like a fun, silly 513 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.280 movie that I didn't take anything away from but just got a happy feeling from 514 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:36.119 watching. My wife and I watched it, and one she could not stop 515 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.840 talking about how much she hated the woman's hair. She's like, what is 516 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.639 up with her hair? Like she had such an issue with the hair, 517 00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.559 and I'm just hair blind, apparently, because I don't know. I thought 518 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:50.000 it looked okay. But we walked away obsessed with the idea, so obsessed 519 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:53.239 with the idea of making Lebkuk and that we started digging up recipes and were 520 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:57.079 like, Okay, how do we make this delicious cake? We need to 521 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.559 have some right now, let's start ordering ingredients make it. It's kind of 522 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:05.239 like, yeah, it pushed us into that place where like, now we 523 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.480 have to have this. This could be an annual tradition at Christmas. We're 524 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.320 gonna make lib cooking. We still have to make it and see if we 525 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.480 like it. But it's funny, like that's the sort of thing that this 526 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.559 movie did to us. And it's I mean, it is so silly, 527 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:22.840 and all of the plot points are so obvious and expected, and that's why 528 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.079 it's just like not my type of movie, and I really like look for 529 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.920 things that usually have a little more meat to them. But at the same 530 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.039 time, like I said, I walked away, I'm like, I'm no 531 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:35.440 longer in a bad mood. This movie did what it needed to do. 532 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:39.800 It cheered me up, It gave me a little slice of cheese, and 533 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:45.760 I ate it and really enjoyed it afterwards. So it's it's that sort of 534 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.519 movie, and it's it's it was so funny to kind of look at it 535 00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.559 and just kind of get that connection from something like this, because I think, 536 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:58.880 I think this may be the first Hallmark Christmas movie that I've actually seen 537 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:05.320 Hallmark or a lifetime. Technically it's a lifetime, Okay, I guess I'm 538 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.519 not really sure where the difference is, if there is one, or if 539 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.920 it's just purely because it's on those particular networks, it's just different networks. 540 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.960 Yeah, it did feel like some of the tropes this didn't quite hit. 541 00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.880 Like, first of all, it's the big the guy is more from the 542 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.039 big city, and she's kind of like she's not from the big city, 543 00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:24.880 but she seems more just like from a decently affluent suburb and not quite like 544 00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:29.400 small town. And there wasn't quite so much of that, like you got 545 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.039 to put down your cell phone and learn to embrace small town folks see Christmas 546 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:37.639 values like, but still had a lot of the same those same plot points 547 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:43.199 and things. I think, Yeah, Andy, let's talk about yours, 548 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:49.400 because, as I said, yours winds up actually being like very specifically naming 549 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.719 some of the theological ideas behind Christmas. In the first couple minutes in a 550 00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:58.960 Japanese anime about a homeless trans woman and her two friends, so it was 551 00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:04.159 not the movie I was expecting all sorts of levels tell us about about Tokyo 552 00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:10.079 Godfathers. Yes, so Toshi Cone is such an interesting filmmaker who sadly passed 553 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:15.239 away at a very very young age and only ended up making I think four 554 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:21.679 or five films total. They're all incredibly well made, really interesting stories, 555 00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:27.039 definitely worth watching. But this is like the Christmas story that he told Tokyo 556 00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:32.000 Godfathers, and it is pulling a lot of these Christmas elements from kind of 557 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.639 from like the religious Well there's there's the religious story inclusion of things like the 558 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:43.360 three wise men that we have here, the baby that is, you know, 559 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.519 you could essentially say that little baby is kind of like the baby Jesus 560 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:52.800 of this particular story. It takes place at Christmas time. It's Christmas Eve 561 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:57.760 in Tokyo as we're having all of this. There's definitely that sense of kind 562 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:01.239 of this magical realism throughout that kind of ties into a lot of the Christmas 563 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:06.920 stories. But I definitely think that the main crux of kind of what you're 564 00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:08.480 bringing up is this sense that we you know, it is the story of 565 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:15.280 these three homeless people, but it is like a transwoman, an alcoholic and 566 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:20.000 a runaway child. Who are the three homeless people who end up finding this 567 00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:22.760 baby as they're looking for something to eat or I can't remember what they're searching 568 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.880 for, but they find this this baby and end up kind of one. 569 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.679 They want to take care of it themselves, and then realize they need to 570 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:35.599 find the mother and it turns into this journey story for them, much like 571 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:38.000 the three Wise Men going to you know, following the star and everything, 572 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:44.159 as they're trying to figure out the mystery of finding you know, who the 573 00:41:44.199 --> 00:41:47.280 baby's mother is, where the baby's mother is, and along the way, 574 00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.320 And this is again a key element of the story is each of our characters 575 00:41:52.440 --> 00:42:00.280 has this sense of redemption as they're working on their journey to help help this 576 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.480 baby find its mother, and you know, you've got just it's a beautiful 577 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.920 like there's this real message of hope with the story and how good people can 578 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:15.519 be despite their differences. I think all of these elements have kind of come 579 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:19.840 together to tell a story that's so completely unexpected. But I mean it just 580 00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:22.440 grows in estimation with me every time I see it, and I just feel 581 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.920 like more and more drawn to it, Like every every holiday season. Yeah, 582 00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:31.159 yeah, it's really beautiful the way it like the you know, there's 583 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:36.960 definitely some very strong illusions of Christmas that the trans woman starts out kind of 584 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.960 telling a joke about like if a virgin can get pregnant, then why can't 585 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.480 she, you know, she's just so much a woman as Mary. And 586 00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:46.719 then they find this baby. The baby's name is and also that woman I 587 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:53.599 should name the characters her name is Hannah Jin is the alcoholic and Muku and 588 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:58.000 I may well become these wrong names wrong in which case I apologize, is 589 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:02.119 the homeless teenager, don't teenager? And then Kyoko is the name they give 590 00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:06.800 to the baby, which is the Japanese translation of silent Night, which also 591 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.400 means pure child. But as you said, it's not like it doesn't feel 592 00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:15.519 like a Christian movie for it. It feels like these characters who are encountering 593 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.039 a Christmas folklore the way that as people who encounter like a lot of different 594 00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.639 folklores in their life. You know, a lot I can say about that. 595 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:24.440 But Abbie, first, why don't you time me? What was your 596 00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:30.920 take on this movie? Well, if the movie I chose was the lightest 597 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:37.159 thing in the world. This was maybe the hard opposite to me. It 598 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.880 was, you know, it tugged on the heartstrings hard. I will say. 599 00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:45.119 You know, as a Jew, I probably missed a lot of the 600 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:51.280 Christmas story illusions that were going on there. My experience with the Wise Man 601 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:57.159 is like singing the when they saw the Star choire. That's about it. 602 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:02.079 But I really the movie. I thought it was like heartfelt and it was 603 00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:09.400 nice to see these characters kind of get that redemption and figure out their stories. 604 00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:17.119 Yeah, but at the same time, watching people be sad is not 605 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:22.360 always the most fun Christmas movie for me. It's a rough movie. I 606 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.000 mean, there's there's ideation, there's suicidal ideation. There's a big part of 607 00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.159 the movie there there's a lot of depression. There's a lot of really bad 608 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.639 fighting and and discussion of just the horrible things these people have done in the 609 00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:37.519 past. So yeah, I it. I can't imagine this being another one 610 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:40.039 of those feel good movies I want to watch, but I do think it's 611 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:47.719 a very wonderful Christmas story. I also feel like and Abby your comments were 612 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:52.760 interesting on this. I don't know much about the person who wrote who who 613 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:55.760 wrote this, but I do know that you know, there are Christians in 614 00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.440 Japan, and I think but the like, these three characters aren't Christian necessarily. 615 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.719 They're just going to a nativity because that's where they can be warm and 616 00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:07.480 get food, because there's a church that's doing that. And I in some 617 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:09.719 ways, I feel like this is one of the only movies I think that 618 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:15.199 could get away with having this much of the religious aspects of Christmas because it's 619 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:21.639 told from me in a community that is not Christianity is the overculture the way 620 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:24.599 it is here in the United States. Yeah, I think there's an interesting 621 00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:29.280 Yeah, there's an interesting element that with that, for sure, and I 622 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:35.320 think at the same time, I think that there's something really interesting with the 623 00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:40.880 the choice of the characters that that con uses here that allows it to kind 624 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:46.199 of reflect I think what, you know, a lot of people, certainly 625 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.800 the three of us, you know, would argue that the idea of Christmas 626 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.480 is one of welcoming you know, all kinds, all people, and it's 627 00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:59.960 it's a very it's you know, a love that embraces everybody you know, 628 00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:04.039 and that's you know, the idea of the whole thing with religion that's kind 629 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:09.760 of been I don't want to Uh, it's it's kind of gone down different 630 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:15.760 roads, let's just say. And and that's something that I think even with 631 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:21.159 characters that aren't you know, that aren't Christians, that are not what you'd 632 00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:24.079 expect in a story like this, I think that it certainly isn't going to 633 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:28.639 be something that's going to play on Cannas Cameron's network, but it's it is 634 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.679 the sort of thing that I think still allows it to end up feeling more 635 00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.760 you know, welcoming overall to just you know, so many It just it 636 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:45.199 feels like like a much bigger hug. Uh. You know, it's grasping 637 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:49.199 so many more types of people than you normally would get in in some Christmas 638 00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.119 stories, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things 639 00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:57.400 that did pull me in was the fact that Hannah was queer, because I 640 00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:01.400 am queer and was not expecting that in this end of story. Yeah yeah, 641 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.400 one of the things I loved most. There's maybe cry so much during 642 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.719 the movie, and I may tear up again. One complaint I sometimes have 643 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:15.280 about Christmas movies is they're very much about family. They specifically mean blood family, 644 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:21.119 and I think that can kind of leave out sometimes the families of choice 645 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:24.400 that many of us build, sometimes just because we're distant from our physically distant 646 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.719 from our family, but a lot of times because we're emotionally distant, either 647 00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.320 in small or very large or you know, completely cut off from our families, 648 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:37.320 and particularly in queer communities. That has meant so much. And so 649 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:45.440 when Hannah, excuse me, I'm sorry, when Hannah goes to the club 650 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:50.079 that she used to perform at Angel Tower and meets her mama, and it's 651 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:53.320 very clear that this is not her biological mother, but this is within trans 652 00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:59.360 women, particularly drag clean societies, and the movie the TV show Drag is 653 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:06.159 a great decription of this. I'm sorry, pose Uh, the mama is 654 00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:08.960 often just an older, also trans woman who adopts younger people, uh, 655 00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:15.159 queer queer kids and and and both trans women and queer men and everyone. 656 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:21.280 And to have that be honored as family as her family, it meant so 657 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.119 much to me, and that that felt like such a like, yeah, 658 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:30.159 that family connection is just as powerful at Christmas time and is one that we've 659 00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:32.840 that that when all you're seeing is blood relatives, I think you can feel 660 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.400 really left out of And I just thought that was like such because it wasn't 661 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:39.920 made a huge deal of It was just like, this is her mama, 662 00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:46.239 and I just loved that so so much. That. Yeah, that that 663 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:50.719 connection that you have there with I mean, I think it's exactly what you 664 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:54.320 just said. It's it's these people that you that become your family and they 665 00:48:54.320 --> 00:49:00.519 are there. That bond is so important and it doesn't matter who it is, 666 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.000 how they came into your life, just the fact that there is that 667 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:07.920 bond there. And we certainly also have it with the three or three characters, 668 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:10.039 you know, the three homeless people, you know, and that connection 669 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.960 that they each have with each other, and the draw and you know, 670 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:19.679 at the very end, you get that reconnection between the young girl and her 671 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.159 dad who's the police officer, and and all of these different stories. I 672 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:28.159 mean, it's just it's so full of these connections. And again it's just 673 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:31.440 it's like welcoming all of them and they are they're all equal, and that's 674 00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:40.840 what I think is powerful about it. Two other just quick things. Have 675 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:44.920 you ere anything else you want to add on that? No, I think 676 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:50.199 what you've both said has covered pretty much everything I felt about it. Yeah, 677 00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:55.719 two other quick things I'll add about the theological side, of it one 678 00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:00.639 just like a small thing. But that I really loved is that there is 679 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:07.280 one small kind of like supernaturalist moment in the story, but it feels very 680 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.159 magic realism, and maybe it's just a very lucky coincidence, but basically like 681 00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:15.719 when there's this you know, horrible moment where the baby is falling and Hannah 682 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:20.719 leaps after the baby to try and catch her, this wind comes up and 683 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:23.480 catches them in the awning, and it's I think it's supposed to be kind 684 00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:29.159 of like a Christmas miracle of some sorts. And what I loved about that 685 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:32.159 is, like, sure there's lots of like Christian Christmas miracle stories, but 686 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:37.639 in Japan, the idea of a sacred wind, like the wind itself in 687 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:45.000 particular, being a locus of miracleness. This is something I know very only 688 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:46.480 a very little bit about, so please correct me if I get the details 689 00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:49.519 wrong. But I looked at this little more and make sure I had some 690 00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.840 of the ideas right. Like even the term kamakazi, which is, you 691 00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:58.920 know, we associate just with these Japanese pilots. It's a reference to a 692 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:04.079 wind that in the destroyed a fleet that was supposed to be invading Japan in 693 00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:06.760 the Middle Ages, and that was the idea, was that these pilots would 694 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:09.039 be a new version of that. But that's just one example of like divine 695 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:14.920 wind being a very important thing in Japanese mythology often, and so the idea 696 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:17.000 that was a Christmas miracle, but in a way that has nothing to do 697 00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:22.679 with Christianity, and it's very much more about the aspects of Japan. I 698 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:28.079 just thought that was really beautiful, that is, yeah, and I didn't 699 00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.599 know, I guess thinking about some other you know, anime and other Japanese 700 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:36.480 films, I see that in there now. I guess it's just something you 701 00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:38.599 know, I've never really looked into very much. But you know, I'm 702 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:42.199 glad that you looked into that and pointed that out, because that's actually a 703 00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:45.559 really interesting element. I just kind of took it as that magical realism element, 704 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:51.400 but coming from the Japanese culture that way makes it all the more powerful 705 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.559 and interesting that they did it that way. Definitely, the last thing I'll 706 00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:57.599 say, and this is kind of a nice segue into my movie that I 707 00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:00.880 want to do, which will do pretty quickly. The only other critique I 708 00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:04.119 often have, especially some of the older holiday movies is that it always feels 709 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.239 like everything is so perfect, like even in Home Alone, where they literally 710 00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:09.480 leave a kid behind. They're in this like very nice, affluent, wealthy 711 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:14.920 family and that's often what Christmas look like, which to me like watching my 712 00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.000 mother with holes in her shoes go out into the snow to buy us gifts 713 00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:21.320 like didn't relate to. And I really love the idea that this is. 714 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:24.920 This is about Christmas in the midst of brokenness, which is both I think, 715 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:30.119 just a wonderful, like completely secular idea, but also as a part 716 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:37.280 of the Christmas story that the evangelical like Christ is King and glory and all 717 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:42.440 of this forgets It's supposed to be about these like two starving teenagers who can't 718 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.039 find any room anywhere and are literally homeless when they give birth. And so 719 00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:50.559 I just thought that was just a really beautiful thing and just about the idea 720 00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:54.920 of like the Christmas magic in the midst of the brokenness. My favorite Christmas 721 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:58.239 movie is hands down Them Up at Christmas, Carol. I think it is 722 00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:00.679 just a phenomenal movie all overall. But the one I pick because it's probably 723 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:05.920 my second favorite, is Scrooged if you haven't seen it, scrooged. It's 724 00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.039 a Bill Murray movie. It's a nineteen eighties movie. In some ways, 725 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.400 it's a wonderful movie. In some ways, it hasn't aged very well, 726 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:17.400 I'm sure, and it's a much harsher telling of the Christmas Carol story. 727 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:22.320 There's a lot of meanness in it, but it is. It is exactly 728 00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.800 the Christmas Carol story. There's the three ghosts, and it's all this kind 729 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:29.960 of meta story because it's about this TV executive who's producing a version of Christmas 730 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:32.760 Carol, but then his own version of it happens. And I just really 731 00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:37.559 love it because it's like I am, at heart, someone who has a 732 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:42.599 very idealistic core and really loves everything about Christmas, but is also deeply, 733 00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:46.239 deeply cynical, and so to have like that core of a beautiful movie wrapped 734 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:50.079 up in all the cynicism in New yorkness of this movie, I just absolutely 735 00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:54.480 love. It's a fun movie. I haven't seen it in a very very 736 00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:57.920 long time. I saw it in the theaters when it came out. I 737 00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.079 probably saw it in one other time after that, and then I just hadn't 738 00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:05.400 seen it. I always remembered it was there. I love the music. 739 00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:09.840 Danny Elfman's score is fantastic, but it's just something that has kind of it's 740 00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:14.800 always sat there as like, yeah, that's another version of screwed of you 741 00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:20.079 know, a Christmas tale story. And Bill Murray is you know Bill Murray's 742 00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:25.920 he's funny. He plays that the awful you know TV exact perfectly, like 743 00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:29.559 he's great, just like he you know, that's kind of the same character 744 00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.280 he's playing at the start of groundhog Day. Really and yeah, I mean 745 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:37.079 there are elements that now you're like, you know, you kind of roll 746 00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:39.360 your eyes out a little bit. But on the whole, I think one 747 00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:45.599 of the things that I enjoyed so much about it is it's it's an adaptation 748 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:50.519 of a Christmas carol that also is tying in so many things that I remember 749 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.280 growing up as a as a child of the seventies and eighties, where you 750 00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:59.599 have all of these like kind of cheesy Christmas specials on TV, like they're 751 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:04.599 doing their whole thing is they're doing this live broadcast and tying that into the 752 00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:08.519 story, and just how commercialized Christmas is becoming and everything and all the celebrity 753 00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:13.360 cameos that you have, like, you know, Mary lou Retten is tidy 754 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.519 dim doing her little backflips and everything like, it's just it. Those were 755 00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:21.760 elements that I had forgotten. And you know, I love the story of 756 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:23.719 a Christmas Carol. This is another version of it. It's it's not my 757 00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:25.679 favorite version of it, but I had a lot of fun with that, 758 00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:32.159 so I was glad to revisit it. I hear that, Abby, I 759 00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:39.039 guess, yeah, so say if my movie made me smile and Andy's made 760 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:46.400 me cry, Matthew's yours made me want to yell. I really hate a 761 00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:55.760 Christmas Carol stories so much. I think that they are bad and their little 762 00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:01.199 lesson is bad. I have. I've had enough of watching rich white guys 763 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:08.519 get saved by acknowledging the poor. Uh huh, that's very fair. That's 764 00:56:08.599 --> 00:56:13.440 very fair that there is. Like as much as I love even I'm up 765 00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:17.360 at Christmas Carol, there's a very condescending attitude I think often of, like 766 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:22.320 I have come to lower myself to be with you. All that is in 767 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:27.840 all of the versions. Yeah yeah, and also so go ahead. Sorry, 768 00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:35.039 The story itself just doesn't lend itself to having interesting female characters, and 769 00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:42.079 I think Scrooged was definitely affected by that. That's very fair. Yeah, 770 00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:45.480 very of its era. Yeah, generally there's just the love interest that he 771 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.760 lost, and that's and then maybe his mother, and those are the only 772 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.320 female characters that ever show up. That's really fair. Yeah, at least 773 00:56:52.400 --> 00:57:00.840 we got the aggressive ghost of Christmas present. Yes, so good played by 774 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:05.280 I. I know the woman because she's been in so much. She's Carol 775 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.840 Kane. Carol Kane, thank you. Yes, the wife up of the 776 00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:17.400 Wonder Wonder Worker and Princess Bride. And yeah, it's you know, I'm 777 00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:21.280 glad that you brought that up, Abby, because that I mean, I 778 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:24.159 absolutely do love the story of Christmas. Carol is just something that I've grown 779 00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:30.679 up with and I really enjoy. But I would I think that it's so 780 00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:37.920 important to acknowledge some of the the elements within that story that like people nowadays 781 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:42.559 should take that as a challenge to say, how could we take this story 782 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:46.480 and crafted into something that is more inclusive and that it's it's not just about 783 00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:51.199 this rich, rich white guy, but do something else with the story. 784 00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:53.599 And I think that's actually a really interesting thing that I have, Like I 785 00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:58.000 am thinking now through all the different versions of the story I've seen it, 786 00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:01.559 I'm like, nobody's really done that, and think that would actually be worth 787 00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:10.880 exploring and something that could make for a valuable modernized retelling of that that would 788 00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:15.320 you know, work for more people than just you know, the people who 789 00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:21.960 connect with that original story, because certainly I think that this I think it 790 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.559 has become very much the focus is on Ebenezer Squezer Ebenezer Scrooge as a rich 791 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.400 man. It has been pointed out that the wealth disparity between Ebenezer Scrooge and 792 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:36.599 Bob Cratchit is far smaller than between, for example, Jeff Bezos and the 793 00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:40.599 lowest paid Amazon worker Bob cratch It is much better paid, and Ebenezer Scrooge 794 00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:45.039 is nowhere near as rich. But but yeah, I think there are the 795 00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:51.039 kind of larger ideas of like you can still change and do better than you 796 00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:54.119 have in the past, and that you can like I even mentioned the poor. 797 00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:57.719 But to me, one of the biggest meetings of Christmas is the idea 798 00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:00.480 of abundance, and there's theology to it, but it's also the idea of 799 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:05.159 like in times of scarcity, it's very easy to fall into the idea of 800 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:07.519 I have to get mine and you go get yours, and I don't care 801 00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.719 about you. But instead the idea of like we're going to build a table 802 00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:15.239 together instead of building walls between us is to me very much of both a 803 00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:20.000 theological and a secular idea of Christmas time that the Christmas Carol story I think 804 00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:22.800 can point to. And it doesn't have to be about a rich white guy, 805 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:23.840 you know, it could be about someone else who has abundance in their 806 00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:29.519 life in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be interesting. So much 807 00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:30.840 more we could say on this topic. So I just want to let each 808 00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:35.119 of you if you have kind of a last Christmas thought Christmas movie thought to 809 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:37.480 share, and then also just let us know kind of where we can find 810 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:40.559 more of your stuff. So Abby, I'll start with you. Yeah, 811 00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:46.039 I'll just say, give the stupid Hallmark movies a try, even if you 812 00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:50.519 think it's not your thing. Give it a hate watch, you know, 813 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:57.119 mock it relentlessly. Sometimes they're fun and they'll light in your day. So 814 00:59:57.239 --> 01:00:01.000 that is my last Christmas movie thought. On the internet. You can't really 815 01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:07.320 find me anywhere. You can follow me on I was gonna say Twitter, 816 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:15.719 but x whatever at clutching my pearls pearl spelled p u r ls. Maybe 817 01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:21.199 if people follow me, I'll actually start tweeting. Yeah, I will never 818 01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:22.800 dead name a human being, no matter how horrible they are. I will 819 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.079 happily dead name Twitter. It is Twitter, it remains Twitter, and I'll 820 01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:30.440 just say I will echo check out Hallmark movies. But also, if you're 821 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:34.679 gonna do it, you're worried about it, have someone either watching it with 822 01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:37.000 you live or like, you know, watching with you that you can text 823 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:40.360 about it, because, as Abby pointed out, I think being able to 824 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:45.599 a little bit like roll your enjoying the bad parts as well as enjoying the 825 01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:47.599 good parts, I think actually makes the movies a lot better. And being 826 01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:52.320 able to be like it's okay if I think this blot point is really contrived? 827 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:52.679 Right, and Abby, when you're like yeah, no, no, 828 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:55.400 no, no, I love this movie, but that's a ridiculous reason for 829 01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:59.039 two people who man at each other like that helped make it a lot better 830 01:00:59.079 --> 01:01:02.079 for me to watch. Andy, what's your kind of last thoughts here? 831 01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:10.119 You know, I mean it's I do think that the danger of Christmas movies 832 01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:15.280 can be that they fall into a lot of the same tropes, and I 833 01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:21.760 mean there are a lot of even even outside of like the Hallmark Lifetime World, 834 01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.480 there are a lot of holiday movies that I don't even bother watching. 835 01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:28.039 Like I see the trailer and I'm like that they're just playing on all the 836 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:30.639 same old tropes. They're not doing anything unique and different. And that's I 837 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:35.920 think, like, why do you have to, like, you know, 838 01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:38.679 just tap into all that stuff again, do something a little more interesting, 839 01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:43.679 and so like looking for things like Tokyo Godfathers, which you know, just 840 01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:45.000 like once I saw it, it's just like burned into my brain. Is 841 01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:50.079 like there's a unique telling of something that is, for you know, a 842 01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.920 Christmas story that that feels different, and that's that's what I really enjoy. 843 01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:57.599 So there are plenty of them out there, you know. And again, 844 01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:00.679 you know, as a fan of horror movies, you know, Christmas horror 845 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:04.320 movies are awfully fun. And you know, even even with the bad parts, 846 01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:06.719 you know, I still had a great time with Violent Night, and 847 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:13.920 so yeah, you know, you know the debate about Christmas movies, is 848 01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:15.920 it a Christmas movie, is it not a Christmas movie? I think that's 849 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.119 just part of the fun and the point is that you're watching stuff together and 850 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:22.920 enjoying and I think that's the key thing. So and where can we find 851 01:02:22.960 --> 01:02:28.440 you? Yeah, you know, I podcast over a True Story FM. 852 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:31.920 I'm on the next reel. We do movie podcasts over there. I'm also 853 01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:36.599 doing one called Movies We Like, where we bring on somebody from the industry 854 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:40.440 and talk with them about one of their favorite movies. And yeah, and 855 01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:44.039 so you know, you can check me out there. I'm on a lot 856 01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:47.280 of the socials as Soda Creek Film, So you can find me over there. 857 01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:52.639 And yeah, I think that pretty much covers it. Yeah, I 858 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:55.639 really echo what you're saying there. I think one thing I've realized is that 859 01:02:55.719 --> 01:03:00.920 for me, the commercial commercialization of Christmas is something I've always really had a 860 01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:04.360 problem with. Part of that is because like my own theology, but even 861 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:07.519 putting that aside, like as a kid of divorced parents who had very different 862 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:13.039 economic backgrounds, watching my mother feel like she had to compete with my father 863 01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:15.840 of who would give the best holiday gifts. He gave Hanukah gifts. But 864 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:20.199 you know, so I've always did like a lot of the Santa Claus elf, 865 01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:22.840 like any movie that's about the gift getting side of things, and I've 866 01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:24.920 heard ELF is much better, and I'll give it a try one day, 867 01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:30.199 but I've mostly stayed away from those. But yeah, you know, we 868 01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:31.719 all get to enjoy whatever we want to enjoy about Christmas movies, and I 869 01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:36.880 think that's awesome. I will just say that. Of course, Andy, 870 01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:38.360 you may well know, not only for all the awesome stuff Andy does, 871 01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:44.159 but the True Story podcast, True Story FM podcast network is what this podcast 872 01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:47.119 and my other podcast, Star Wars Generations are proud members of. Andy will 873 01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.559 give me a dirty look because I should have said this at the very beginning, 874 01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:53.559 but you can become a member of my podcasts from only five dollars a 875 01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:57.920 month fifty five dollars a year. It's a great Christmas present for someone in 876 01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:00.440 your life you're looking for something by him a way in your membership. They 877 01:04:00.519 --> 01:04:04.239 get bonus, they get ad free content, they get bonus content. We're 878 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:10.800 gonna do a little bit about that at the end of this about other holiday 879 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:13.719 movies, but mostly you just get to know you're supporting us. This is 880 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:16.239 a labor of love. But you know, the Internet, the microphones, 881 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:19.280 the hosting, like all of it costs some money and the time and effort 882 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:23.079 and getting all these great guests. I'd love to be able to thank them 883 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:27.280 a little bit more. And so every membership that you guys give, not 884 01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:30.920 only does it just help physically and monetarily make this possible, but it's such 885 01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:33.360 a great reminder to me and to the folks who are helping me at True 886 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:36.599 Story that you really care about these podcasts. And so if you do, 887 01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:40.480 like I said, it's just five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a 888 01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:45.360 year really be a great thing. All the information is on the show notes, 889 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:47.440 or you can just search for the Ethical Pana dot com and I'll take 890 01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:50.760 you right there and there again. Also you find all the other stuff about 891 01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:55.199 this podcast. My other podcast, Star Wars Generations, has really had a 892 01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:59.000 great reboot. We will not be talking about the Star Wars Holiday special. 893 01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:00.719 I did that once, I'll never do it again. But we are going 894 01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.679 to be talking a little bit about a twenty twenty three wrap up of like 895 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:05.920 what Happened a Year in Star Wars, which will be a lot of fun. 896 01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:09.559 So please check out all those things, check out all the other great 897 01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:13.199 podcasts that Andy and Pete and others are doing on the true Story FM Network. 898 01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:15.639 If you're a member, stick around for some more bonus content. In 899 01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:16.599 just a second, we have spoken