WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:05.040 Yeah, I had. I had an uncle that disappears from our family for 2 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.880 about thirty thirty five years. We kind of had an idea where he was 3 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:18.359 Alston when the heat packed up. I don't have that. You know, 4 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:23.120 he'd been living in Colorado, but he never made over. Everybody know about. 5 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:29.079 Nobody knew for sure. Hey, it happens. It's just changed me 6 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:35.320 as that's not the peace and listen. Welcome to Frozen Truth, Season four, 7 00:00:35.439 --> 00:01:07.400 Episode two. I'm Scott Fuller. Last time on Frozen Truth, A 8 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.400 thirty six year old woman, Sandra Jacobson, was last seen with her son 9 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:17.040 on the night of November sixteenth, nineteen ninety six. Her abandoned car was 10 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:21.840 found along the banks of the Missouri River at Bismarck the next day. Also 11 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:26.079 missing was her five year old son, John. What could have happened to 12 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:32.359 Sandra and John during those short few hours between when they were last seen and 13 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.959 when the car was found the following morning, and why? Did the lead 14 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:41.400 on the case for the Bismarck Police Department, Detective Tim Turnbull, feel that 15 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:46.879 the most likely explanation was that Sandra and John entered the water on that dark, 16 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:53.799 cold night and drown. Who better to ask than the man himself that's 17 00:01:53.799 --> 00:02:17.479 coming up next. The voice you heard at the beginning of the episode was 18 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:23.280 Detective Tim Turnbull, who's been retired from Bismarck PD since two thousand and six. 19 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:27.120 He still lives in the area and has never forgotten what he believes to 20 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:32.680 be the only unresolved missing person's case in the city's history, and what to 21 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:38.960 do with that case now twenty five years later. There's different terms that they 22 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:42.919 use, and one of them is exceptionally cleared. Again, the reason we 23 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:49.960 used as renew a plan had been committed. That's the prosecuting attorney to planning 24 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.719 in your prosecutionally, so that's exceptionally maybe an active because there's normal leads to 25 00:02:54.840 --> 00:03:00.479 follow, but you know, they kind of tend to believe those us. 26 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:13.439 The situation is this November sixteenth was a Saturday in nineteen ninety six, and 27 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.280 that night, Sandra Jacobson had traveled forty five minutes or so from her home 28 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:23.599 in Center North Dakota to Bismarck, where her parents lived. Sandra left behind 29 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:27.879 at home an older teenage son who she had a good relationship with, and 30 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.960 brought along only five year old John for the visit to his grandparents, but 31 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:38.159 something happened along the way, or before she left, or possibly after she'd 32 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:44.039 arrived in Bismarck. We can't be sure. What happened almost certainly wasn't real, 33 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:51.520 but Sandra thought it was. Before Sandra Jacobson disappeared with her five year 34 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:55.599 old boy, she called the Bismarck Police Department to sound a warning about what 35 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:02.400 was happening back in Center. She had some idea about that. I'm going 36 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:08.000 on up the Shuna, North Dakota. That's right, SoC coults with a 37 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:12.039 C. Or then again, Sandra might have been talking about the occults with 38 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.759 an OH. Detective Turnbull isn't sure about the specific contents of the call these 39 00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:25.439 many years later, or even when the call was placed before I thinking, 40 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:29.199 but it was reported in the local newspaper at the time that Sandra was trying 41 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:34.399 to alert the authorities about some sort of devil worship occurring in Center, and 42 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:40.480 she was calling the Bismarck police about this because the Center North Dakota Police Department 43 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:46.279 couldn't be trusted for reasons known only to her. It is not known to 44 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.759 me anyway, when this call to Bismarck PD was placed, whether it was 45 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:55.399 before or after her arrival at her parents house, maybe later in the night 46 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.560 that she went missing. Detective Turnbull believes that the call was placed before she 47 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:03.199 arrived at her parents home, and unfortunately, Sandra's parents had both passed away. 48 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:09.560 But Detective Turnbull says that when Sandra and Jacob arrived at that house that 49 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.360 night, her parents were concerned about her. In fact, they implored her 50 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:17.959 to go see a doctor that very night. Her mother wanted to take her 51 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.800 to see the doctor, and she was willing to go, but she wanted 52 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:28.399 to go and put the ass car first, and for some reason and brother 53 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:32.040 just let her goal and she took time with her. They never came back. 54 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:39.319 After Sandra hadn't returned within a few hours, Sandra's parents became alarmed, 55 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:43.879 especially so since she'd taken her five year old with her. This is why 56 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.000 Sandra was reported missing so quickly, much sooner than in a typical missing person's 57 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:53.040 case. It's probably why her car was found so quickly the very next day. 58 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.879 So I think it was the next days when we found her vehicles in 59 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.079 a part down there and said the area where we found it was a boat 60 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:08.519 launching area. Uh, you know where the people would back their boats into 61 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.439 the water, and at that time of year it wasn't used real a lot 62 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.439 because it was colder, you know. And uh uh, you know, 63 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.720 in the summertime that had a lot of the real jampas as people are all 64 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:23.160 the time, but the time ye were talking about here, it was not 65 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:28.000 like that. But her car was found the next day and her I believe, 66 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.160 the wall and everything was in the car, and there was a receipt 67 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.480 where she had gone to pick up her field with gas, you know, 68 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:38.600 in the night before. And then if I remember correcting, one of the 69 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:43.680 doors was standing open on the car and it was right on the edge of 70 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.399 where they watched the boat. So it was assumed that she had and her 71 00:06:47.560 --> 00:07:14.199 son had walked into the water at that point. From that point, with 72 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.240 no signs of a struggle, with Sandra's purse sitting untouched in the car, 73 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:23.759 and with no sign of any other crime having occurred, Detective Turnbull arrived then 74 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:28.000 and there at that conclusion that both Sandra and John Jacobson had somehow entered the 75 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.560 water on their own that night, and that they had both drowned. Instead 76 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:36.199 of returning to her parents' house for dinner. After getting gas, Sandra seemed 77 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:43.079 to have gone a different way and was never seen again about the car. 78 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:48.839 Can you confirm these facts that the keys were in the ignition? Would the 79 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.399 ignition have been turned off as or any way to tell if the headlights and 80 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:58.560 and left on or if the game? Yeah, I don't remember, but 81 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.519 I think the car was off FU no mistake. I think it was turned 82 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:07.079 off in the ignition, but turned off, you think. And the purse 83 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:16.199 was on the passenger seat, yeah, I always somewhere, and it was 84 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.279 reported the only thing missing from the purse was her driver's license. Yes, 85 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.920 And you recall seeing the receipt from the gas station where she supposedly was going 86 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:35.879 before where she said he do you recall if the time stamp on the receipt 87 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.080 makes sense for her to have traveled directly from her parents to the gas station. 88 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:41.720 I don't know if I can tell you that it's been quite a few 89 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.240 years ago. Sure, sure, Um the interior of the car is at 90 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:48.799 messy or clean? I think it was pretty clean. Actually, you know, 91 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.559 there was not a lot of some people, some kids to keep it 92 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:58.320 clean cars and that bad. It was pretty clean actually, so not a 93 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.159 whole lot of cl fast food rappers stuff like that. Was there anything in 94 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:07.080 the car that stood out as maybe being a little odd that was inside the 95 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:13.039 car? No? Um, was the car ever processed for fingerprints or anything? 96 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.519 Okay, yeah, it was. It was. It was totally processed. 97 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:22.600 And I don't recall if we find anything other than her and her son, 98 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:24.519 well, we wouldn't have. We wouldn't probably have had prints on her 99 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.759 son because he was all about sitter d So we may not up have any 100 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.919 here her prints here. Do you say you had her fingerprints? No, 101 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.200 I don't think we did. I mean, oh, we didn't have everybodyer 102 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.679 prints. I mean there had to be a reason for you to be fingerprint 103 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.879 Yeah, and one of the reasons, of course, is being rested. 104 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.679 Another one would be a fine person jobs the uh yeah finger prints, you 105 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:50.720 know, yeah, for your fingerprints, like for gaming relations? Is that 106 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:58.080 the thing? In the first episode of season four, I speculated that there 107 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:03.879 may have been ice on the Missouri River in November when Sandra and John disappeared. 108 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.879 There are precious few people who were there that day that we can speak 109 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:13.639 to who can confirm or correct that assumption for us. But fortunately one of 110 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:24.639 them is Detective Turnbull, I don't think the water. Let me ask you 111 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.279 something, and I mean this is a rhetorical question, but to you directly, 112 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:33.080 to you listening right now, when you hear about that call that Sandra 113 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:39.039 made in about the devil worship, and you picture all this happening in your 114 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.799 mind, what do you think? What are your emotions telling you? I 115 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.759 want you to be aware of those as we go from now on, because 116 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.360 here in episode two is where this case begins to bump up against our own 117 00:10:50.960 --> 00:11:00.039 preconceived prejudices about mental illness. We have all different experiences with it, some 118 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.840 of us probably far too much. Some of us will, I might say, 119 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.759 come at this from a perspective of ignorance, having not enough experience with 120 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.039 mental illness. And some of you actually will be literal experts, I'm sure 121 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.960 in this area. I, on the other hand, many, probably most 122 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:22.159 others, will approach these events here in this season is laypeople. But it's 123 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.080 out there now, it's on the table for this season, for this case. 124 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.039 But this I do know, and I can tell you with some authority. 125 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.320 It would be a disservice to Sandra and of course to John for us 126 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:41.759 just to assume the obvious and stop looking there. Sandra seems to be having 127 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.720 some sort of dissociative episode around this time, just from my perspective, but 128 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:52.240 that doesn't go far enough for me. I want not just to cause, 129 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:58.360 but I want an explanation. So one good thing that has come out of 130 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:05.480 our conversation with Detective Tim Turnbull is we know a valuable piece of clarifying information. 131 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.840 There was no ice on the river at that time, almost certainly. 132 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.120 And why does that matter. Well, now we know that if it was 133 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.759 drowning, it was not an ice accident. So Sandra or John or both, 134 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.320 we're not out there on the ice for some reason that night, and 135 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.159 for example, mother went to save her son, or son tried to come 136 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:37.080 to the aid of his mother and drown in the process. Open water in 137 00:12:37.159 --> 00:13:09.919 this case leads to darkness. So that's Sunday the next day. How well 138 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.200 was that area searched then and since then? For Sandra and John, I 139 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:22.480 think the interest that was primarily around right around an area not too far down. 140 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.919 This is confirmation of what I was a little afraid of after reading the 141 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.080 press reports. The local paper reports that on the very day that the car 142 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.879 was found, the Missouri river was searched from the beach area or that boat 143 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.000 launch area where the car was found, down to the railroad bridge. Let 144 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:45.320 me try and paint the picture for you so you'll we're calling episode one. 145 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.879 I mentioned three bridges over the Missouri at Bismarck, and how there's one right 146 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.960 after another after another. Detective Turnbull has confirmed for us that the area is 147 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.200 searched for Sandra and John was very small. It was a very small portion 148 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.279 of the area of one area between those two bridges, So the area searched 149 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.000 for Sandra and John is about the size of a football field the area of 150 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.159 the river. Detective Turnbull is also confirmed for us that there were no other 151 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.440 searches conducted following the car being found on that Sunday and that first day's search. 152 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.600 Turnbull is referenced in the newspaper the next spring asking fishermen and boaters to 153 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.519 keep an eye out for anything unusual as the ice melted and people began using 154 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.360 the water more again. But when he was asked about another search specifically for 155 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:31.320 Sandra and John, Detective Turnbull told the paper that he asked County Search and 156 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.000 Rescue about another search and he was told they wouldn't even know where to start 157 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.639 looking. And let's not to say that that someday they won't find balls. 158 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:46.440 Now they might, I really highly thought find closing that pin of stuff over 159 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.039 about the years. But they might. The case file on Sandra and John 160 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.720 Jacobson may technically still be open. Actually I'm not even certain of that at 161 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:58.360 this point. But as far as Detective Tim Turnbull, Bismarck Police Department, 162 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.559 Retired is concerned, the case is solved, and of course he could be 163 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:09.000 right. But we're not done. Coming up next time. I read about 164 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:15.320 one of the articles a reported sighting of them at a local keymart. Do 165 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:20.639 you recall that episode three of Frozen Truth is scheduled to be released yet this 166 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.039 week, so you're going to be receiving back to back episodes pretty much. 167 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.639 No waiting too long for part two of our conversation with Detective Tim Turnbull. 168 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:31.919 Before then, though, I want to share a promo with you for a 169 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.679 new podcast project produced by one of the good guys in the business in the 170 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.200 true crime podcasting world, Mike Morpford. His new show is called Zodiac Speaking, 171 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:46.080 and Mike's work on the Zodiac case for his podcast called Criminology is frankly 172 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.240 the best coverage I've ever encountered of Zodiac, So if you have an interest 173 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.360 in that case, you need to check out his new offering, and I 174 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.559 hope you do. Thank you for listening and subscribing to Frozen Truth, and 175 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.519 thanks to our new Patreon supporter, Dusty. Dusty is all so a supporter 176 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.360 of my other projects Status Pending and Dead and Gone in Wyoming. Dusty, 177 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.200 I do appreciate it, And if you'd like to support the show and get 178 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.360 exclusive content early contents, you'll find the Patreon link in the show notes. 179 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.519 I am at Fuller on air on Twitter and you'll see my email address posted 180 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.399 along with the episode two. Feel free and reach out just to say hi, 181 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.960 or of course, if you have a connection to Sandra and John's case, 182 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:23.480 I'd love to hear from you as well. Finally, if you have 183 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.759 any information about the disappearance of Sandra and John Jacobson, please contact the North 184 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.399 Dakota Bureau of Criminal Investigation at seven oh one three two eight five five zero 185 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.320 zero or the Bismarck Police Department at seven oh one two two three one two. 186 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.440 I'm Mike Morford and I've been researching the Zodiac case for years. Zodiac 187 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.519 just the name, It's sounds sinister, It inspires fear. The fact that 188 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.240 a serial killer would give himself this monikers disturb it. He would go on 189 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:59.720 to taunt police by sending letters and codes to newspapers for years. Any attacks, 190 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.399 they were something else altogether. If you were a young couple in a 191 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.680 secluded area, you could easily be a target. And it wasn't just shootings 192 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.200 on dark lovers leans. Zodiac would even attack with a knife in broad daylight 193 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:18.359 while wearing an executioner's style hood. After a while, Zodiac changed tactics and 194 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.200 even loan cab drivers weren't safe. The Zodiac killer terrorized the San Francisco Bay 195 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.599 area and then vanished, but he left a lot of clues behind along the 196 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.400 way, clues that were going examined closely on the new podcast Zodiac Speaking. 197 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:36.079 New episodes of Zodiac Speaking come out of every other Saturday starting March thirteenth, 198 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.839 twenty twenty one. Subscribe today wherever you listen to podcast so you don't miss 199 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:41.680 a single episode.