1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,919 We understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,800 an idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:14,039 --> 00:00:19,879 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,839 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,879 a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,280 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom 7 00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:40,399 will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:57,320 thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. Everybody's talking 9 00:00:57,359 --> 00:01:02,359 about Project twenty twenty five. What the hell is Project twenty twenty five. 10 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:04,200 I don't know about you, but I've seen the bullet points. People have 11 00:01:04,359 --> 00:01:11,120 memed it. There have been some summarizations, but by different people. Are 12 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:15,400 those people credible? How do you distill nine hundred pages down into something that 13 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:22,239 you and I can manage? The first person I thought to call was constitutional 14 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,840 attorney and friend Andrew Sidell, and so he is joining me today so we 15 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,040 can talk shop. Andrew. Good to have you, brother, always the 16 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:33,280 pleasure, my friend. Thanks for having me on. All right, well, 17 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,280 let's just get into it. What is this nine hundred page document. 18 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,680 Project twenty twenty five is massive, It really is. I think the simplest 19 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,959 way for your audience to understand it is it is the playbook to create a 20 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,840 Christian nation. Christian nationalists are the architects of Project twenty twenty five, and 21 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,439 this is nine hundred pages. As you said, it's a nine hundred page 22 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:01,680 policy manual for restructuring the federal government to advance it's the Christian nationalist's ultimate goals 23 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:08,039 of toppling American democracy and instilling a theocracy that takes away our freedoms and equality. 24 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,560 It's really important to remember that those nine hundred pages, they're what they 25 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,199 felt comfortable publishing, right. So this went through an editing process, it 26 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:23,080 was sanitized. It's full of jargon, that's what they were comfortable saying publicly. 27 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:28,159 Right. But there's still a lot that is behind Project twenty twenty five, 28 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,120 the people and the groups that organize this, and this could become a 29 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:37,560 reality or start becoming a reality as soon as January twenty twenty five. And 30 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,520 I really think it's important for people to understand that this is not some vague 31 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,280 threat, that this really could happen, and it could happen soon. I 32 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,479 used to say that, A, it's all hyperbole. This is me being 33 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,159 relatively naive a decade ago. Ah, the dismantling of democracy, the rise 34 00:02:54,319 --> 00:03:00,599 of religious fascism in this country. You know, the theocracy thing is where 35 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:05,159 we've evolved beyond that. Look at the demographics, the rise of the seculars, 36 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:07,639 the non religious. And now I look around and I think, oh 37 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:14,280 my god. When I say the impending death of democracy, I feel like 38 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:19,280 it's no longer hyperbole. I feel like I'm looking right at it in the 39 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,439 face. And you would agree with that. I mean, we're on the 40 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:23,919 bubble here, Oh yeah, I mean we really really are. And within 41 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,719 the first few pages, Project twenty twenty five says it's going to erase protections 42 00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:34,639 for LGBTQ equality, reproductive freedom, diversity, equity because they conflict with Christian 43 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,639 nationalist beliefs. Right, they talk about the biblically based version of a family 44 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:44,280 and using the federal government to advance that and inhibit everybody else who doesn't fit 45 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,800 within that mold. You know, one of its core promises again early up 46 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:52,120 top, is to secure our god given individual right to enjoy the blessings of 47 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:55,560 liberty right, a promise that it roots in its particular version of the Biblical 48 00:03:55,639 --> 00:04:01,680 God. Does this kind of like bait and switch between founding language and then 49 00:04:01,719 --> 00:04:05,560 switching it to this Christian nationalist version of what they would interpret it as. 50 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,439 And really, again, like the biblically based family, they're going to limit 51 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:14,240 abortion and contraception based on the fundamentalist religious belief that life begins at conception, 52 00:04:14,879 --> 00:04:18,519 dismantle public education. I mean they are talking about quote sunsetting the Department of 53 00:04:18,639 --> 00:04:26,160 Education, and the goal really is in that particular chapter to shut down public 54 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,959 education as we know it and funnel all of those kids and all those tax 55 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,399 dollars into private religious schools that can keep kids in one particular faith. One 56 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:39,160 of the arguments I am hearing though from the Project twenty twenty five crowd is 57 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:41,680 that, well, it's states rights. We just want to take the We 58 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,600 don't want to federalize all of this. We need to give this back to 59 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:48,920 the states and more importantly to the parents, so it becomes actually a stand 60 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,920 that defends the rights of the states of the Union. How would you respond 61 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,959 to that. I Mean, that's a very common and it's a very old 62 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,639 argument. Here's an examp sample of what they're talking about. I'm going to 63 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:08,240 use an example you're familiar with. Seth Oklahoma Okay Project twenty twenty five actually 64 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,720 connects pretty closely to what is going on in Oklahoma. And we'll just stick 65 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,040 with public education. Right. There's a push to put the Bible in the 66 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,800 Ten Commandments in Oklahoma public schools. Ryan Walters has created a climate there that 67 00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:26,000 is incredibly difficult is like a kind word for it, for LGBTQ people to 68 00:05:26,199 --> 00:05:30,920 exist in those public schools. He's been abusing his power to impose his personal 69 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,920 religion on other people's children and using the machinery of the state to advance Christian 70 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,959 nationalism in the public schools. He created the or He approved the country's first 71 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:44,079 religious public school, something that Americans United for Separation of Church and State suit 72 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,800 over. He appointed the Libs of TikTok Hate Longer to oversee the school's libraries 73 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:54,720 and added to that anti LGBTQ atmosphere that he has cultivated and which has cost 74 00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:59,160 students their lives. And then after the Ten Commandments Bill was signed in Louisiana, 75 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:02,879 which Americans un in our allies suitover Walters was suffering from like the worst 76 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,040 case of Christian nationalist fomo that I have ever seen, right, and he 77 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,879 rushed to announce that he was going to force quote every teacher to put the 78 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:16,519 Bible in every classroom. And how does that all tie to Project twenty twenty 79 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:20,160 five. Well, the answer is when the Project twenty twenty five handbook talks 80 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,879 about the quote bright future of education when the states are in full control and 81 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,680 in giving states that control, which it does in the Department of Education chapter, 82 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,199 which is I think these are around three pages three hundred nineteen, three 83 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,279 hundred twenty Project twenty twenty five means Oklahoma. And actually we know that Ryan 84 00:06:36,319 --> 00:06:43,959 Walters has hired a media strategy company that is based in DC, and this 85 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,319 is something that's becoming quite a local scandal that he's paying state dollars to this 86 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,680 organization. The person who runs that organization is named the Mary Vaught. Mary 87 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:57,199 Vaught happens to be the vice president of Strategic Communications for the Heritage Foundation, 88 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,959 which is behind Project twenty twenty five publish the handbooks. So this is not 89 00:07:01,079 --> 00:07:05,800 just me saying they want Oklahoma to be kind of the model for every state. 90 00:07:06,319 --> 00:07:12,480 They're there on the ground helping influence what Ryan Walters is doing. Just 91 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:16,920 a quick ray of light here I read just yesterday or a couple of days 92 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:23,480 ago by Bixby Public Schools in Oklahoma. This is a suburb of Tulsa. 93 00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:30,279 After Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters mandated that the Bible be taught as history 94 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:38,319 in school, there was an official response and it said, in summary, 95 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:43,720 the district agrees with mister Walters on the importance of studying the role of religion 96 00:07:43,879 --> 00:07:49,199 in historical and cultural contexts. However, we also maintain that teaching any specific 97 00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:57,519 religious doctrine or ideology is not part of the current state standards. Therefore, 98 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:03,279 we affirm our decision to keep our current BPS curriculum unchanged. And I've seen 99 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:07,759 that there are some other places around the state of Oklahoma that are pushing back 100 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,560 as well. So we're not we haven't all lost our minds down here. 101 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:13,759 No. And you've got a lot of help. I mean, you know, 102 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:16,519 Americans United and the ACLU and f FRF. I've got all these allies 103 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:22,959 who are working to help and to help build this groundswell against the Christian nationalists 104 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:26,399 takeover of the public school system in Oklahoma. Andrew, what do you do 105 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,439 for Americans United? What's your specific role. I actually do the same thing 106 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:33,039 that Mary Vatt does at the Heritage Foundation. I am the vice president of 107 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:39,039 Strategic Communications, and one of the things that I have been really working to 108 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:46,240 do lately is to humanize the devastating cost of Project twenty twenty five, because, 109 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,759 as you and I are sitting here talking about it, it really presents 110 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:54,960 a challenge. Seth. It's nine hundred pages, It's four pounds more than 111 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,480 four pounds I have weighed. This playbook is overwhelming. It's full of legal 112 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:03,639 ease, full of governmental jargons. So this is a threat that is vague, 113 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:07,000 and it's hard to connect to people's personal lives and stories. And that's 114 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:11,480 just magnified because this is about a future threat, right, So we haven't 115 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,919 had any stories to tell until now. This is something that I wanted to 116 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,200 change. This is something that Americans United wanted to change. We were looking 117 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,840 through this playbook, we were all reading it, and there's a section that 118 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:30,919 really jumped out at us because it effectively targets some of our brave plaintiffs who 119 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:35,720 are fighting back against religious discrimination. It does everything except name them. So 120 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,679 Lizen gab Rut and Ram, they're this couple in Tennessee. They're unable to 121 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,679 have biological children of their own, and they actually identified a special needs child 122 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:48,440 that they hoped to foster and adopt, and the state funded agency that trains 123 00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:56,080 and certifies potential foster families refused to work with Liz Gabe because they are Jewish. 124 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,840 With your permission, then I'm going to play for it. Everybody here. 125 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:07,240 The clip that Americans United has released, which very much humanizes the challenge 126 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:16,759 we face. I can't imagine a better life for us than as parents. 127 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,919 I wanted to be able to have at least one biological child. Then we 128 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:26,320 realized that a biological child wasn't an option for us. Then we decided to 129 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,720 do the fosters to adopt. We started lining everything up, so we found 130 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,039 a child, a little boy in Florida. This one stood out to us. 131 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:52,200 Unfortunately, as a Christian organization, our executive team made the decision several 132 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:58,480 years ago to only provide adoption services to prospective adoptive families that share our belief 133 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:05,000 system. Called me crying. Because we were Jewish, we weren't able to 134 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:09,320 be parents. It was a gut punch. Our taxpayer dollars are going to 135 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,000 foster care, yet we can't adopt a child through that system. I know 136 00:11:13,039 --> 00:11:18,399 it's hard to think seeing any of her friends that kids, you're happy for 137 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:31,720 that person, but you also long for that. Project twenty twenty five is 138 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:37,600 this voluminous, nine hundred page document that the Christian nationalist movement has come up 139 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:43,360 with on how they're going to take over the United States. Basically, to 140 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,360 know that Project twenty twenty five recognizes what's happening and is supporting it, it's 141 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:54,399 really hard to swallow. It's really disheartening to see that there's entire political arms 142 00:11:54,440 --> 00:12:01,120 at this point helment on trying to make us second class citizens. We know 143 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,279 this is an injustice. If Project twenty twenty five can come for us, 144 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:16,519 it can come for anyone. Americans United for Separation of Church and State. 145 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,840 That kind of sounds like what we're trying to do right here. They've been 146 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,480 along with us for all the struggles and the ups and downs. They handle 147 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:30,320 all the really complicated things that I don't always understand. We tell our story 148 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,200 and they take care of it from there. They're dedicated to the cause of 149 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,559 not letting out theocracy be established. Americans United has been a light for us 150 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,879 in this difficult time. We're still nervous, but at least we know we're 151 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:52,639 not alone. I feel like in my own work, you know, we 152 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,000 throw data around all the time, but it's the human story that seems to 153 00:12:56,039 --> 00:12:58,159 resonate the most. I mean, you know, it's not a cheat to 154 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,559 target the heart. It's okay to feel something about the things we think about. 155 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:05,519 And I think that's what you're trying to accomplish here, right is. 156 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:11,360 You know, this matters, and it's okay to feel alarmed and concerned and 157 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,960 afraid and outraged about injustice. Right Not only is it okay, I mean 158 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,399 people should. People should be alarmed about what is happening and what will happen 159 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,480 if this playbook is put into practice, if it becomes the law of the 160 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,039 land, and the story of Lizen Gab it is it is? I mean 161 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:35,080 to me, it is hugely emotional watching them talk about this, you know, 162 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,080 and they've been going through this for a number of years now and it's 163 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,919 still very raw for them. And you know, I've sat through interviews with 164 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:50,240 them and helped them try to crack this story and it's still you can see 165 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:54,000 that it really still hits them every time they tell it. I mean, 166 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,799 this is you know, we're in twenty twenty four right now and we're talking 167 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:03,600 about forcing to expairers to fund religious discrimination. It is mind blowing. It's 168 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:09,480 hard to think of anything more an American than what Project twenty twenty five is 169 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,480 trying to do. But we do have to not just talk about the threat, 170 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:18,080 but also humanize it. I am interested in the money, the power 171 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,240 players behind the scenes. More with Andrew's Seidel on Project twenty twenty five. 172 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:39,279 Next, continuing a conversation now with a constitutional attorney and representative for Americans United 173 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:46,399 for the Separation of Church and State, Andrew Seidel. You know the old 174 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,840 saying says follow the money. Did you want to address any of that? 175 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,080 Andrew absolutely, And I would really encourage people to go check out au dot 176 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:58,720 org slash Project twenty twenty five because we follow the money on that website and 177 00:14:58,879 --> 00:15:03,600 it is it is shocking, and there's there's so much to follow, and 178 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,039 there are so many big players behind the scenes. And you know, for 179 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,519 a long time, Americans United has been warning everyone about this billion dollar shadow 180 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:16,679 network that is working to reshape American law and to roll back your rights in 181 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,399 favor of their Christian nationalist vision. Right. And if you look at the 182 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:24,519 ven diagram between you know, the overlap in those shadow network groups and the 183 00:15:24,559 --> 00:15:28,960 groups behind Project twenty twenty five, it's nearly a circle. So you know, 184 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,960 we've been able to track fifty five million dollars that we know of that 185 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,200 has flowed from Leonard Leo, who is responsible for capturing the Supreme Court and 186 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,879 the Coke Network, to the architects of Project twenty twenty five. We know 187 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:45,759 that Leo chairs Tinao, which is another organization that is on the Project twenty 188 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,440 twenty five advisory board. Other groups that overlap include the Alliance Defending Freedom, 189 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,799 which was founded by a group of televangelists and radio preachers in nineteen ninety three. 190 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,720 It's a self described Christian law firm. Once on its website it proudly 191 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:04,200 pro claimed that it was trying to recover the robust Christian domic theology of the 192 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,600 third, fourth, and fifth centuries. This group has been at the heart 193 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,799 of so many of the most harmful Supreme Court cases lately, and it even 194 00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,879 claims to have crafted the model bill that eventually led to the overturning of rovers 195 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:18,960 is Wade And there are a bunch of groups like this that the Family Research 196 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,639 Council, another anti LGBTQ, anti abortion group that is on a quote mission 197 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,919 to serve God by championing faith, family and freedom. First Liberty Institute, 198 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,799 which is just a smaller version of ADF. The America First Legal Foundation, 199 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,960 which is this relatively new, was established in twenty twenty one. It's led 200 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,039 by Stephen Miller, who is known for his connections to the white nationalist movements 201 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,840 and for helping implement the child separation policy at the border, which was justified 202 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,960 by citing Romans thirteen in the Bible right. I mean, there's so many 203 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:53,159 of these groups that overlap that have been trying to do this Christian nationalist and 204 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,399 implement this Christian nationalist vision for years that are backing Project twenty twenty five. 205 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,799 It's just another way for them to accomplish their goal. I saw someone in 206 00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:07,920 the press had referenced Leonard Leo as the judge whisperer. I mean, wasn't 207 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:15,000 he the guy who was a major influencer behind five the five conservative Supreme Court 208 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,519 justices. Would that be an overstatement. Was he the puppeteer? No, 209 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,160 I think puppeteer is a great word for it. Leonard Leo is universally recognized 210 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,680 as the guy who orchestrated the hostile takeover of the Supreme Court. And to 211 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,720 me, there's a former employee of Leo's described his mission ones and this is 212 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:34,720 the quote that I think is described so much of what has happened recently. 213 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:40,799 And this is what the employee said. Leo quote figured out twenty years ago 214 00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:45,640 that conservatives had lost the culture war, abortion, gay rights, contraception. 215 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:51,039 Conservatives didn't have a chance if public opinion prevailed, so they needed to stack 216 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:53,559 the courts. And that's what they did. And the reason I think that 217 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:59,599 is so telling is because they are they are admitting, they are confessing the 218 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,440 anti democratic goal of all of their work. Right, if they don't stack 219 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,240 the court, the majority is going to rule. If they don't stack the 220 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,559 court, democracy is going to work. And overall, we know that Leo's 221 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,160 network of groups spent about five hundred and forty million dollars, that's what we 222 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,720 know of what we've been able to track packing the court from twenty fourteen to 223 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,839 twenty twenty. And you do not spend that kind of money to get an 224 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:30,079 impartial court. They bought a court. Another way that Leo's work has been 225 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,359 described as he was described as the quote monitor of the nominees' ideological purity. 226 00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:40,400 Right, So we're talking about judicial nominees here and the monitor of the nominees' 227 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:44,599 ideological purity. So just think about that. And as you said, he 228 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,759 is responsible for the confirmation of Robert's Alito Gorsich, Kavanaugh, and Barrett Thomas 229 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,119 is an old friend of his. And actually if you go back and watch 230 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:56,160 Thomas's confirmation, you can see Leo sitting right behind him in the audience. 231 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,880 All six of those justices are or worm of the Federalist Society, right, 232 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,799 So that's six votes all on the Supreme Court, and Leo personally chose five 233 00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:11,039 of them for their ideology, and it is a Christian nationalist ideology. There 234 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:18,599 has been talk again about changing the structure of the court, or how many 235 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,680 justices, or whether or not they can be lifetime terms, etc. You 236 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,359 have any thoughts on the Supreme Court, and this is sort of murmuring. 237 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,440 I haven't heard anything official, but I know people are like, we got 238 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,319 to do something. What in the world would they do. Yeah. So, 239 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,279 I mean, there are a number of proposals, and there's been some 240 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:40,319 reporting. I think it was the Washington Post that broke the story that the 241 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,720 current administration may come out in favor of some of those proposals. And I 242 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,880 wrote about this a lot in American Crusade. And one of the things that 243 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,880 I worried about in American Crusade was that We're going to have this short window 244 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,920 in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two where we could actually do something about 245 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,920 the Court, and then if we didn't take advantage of that window, then 246 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,480 it might have closed, might have closed for good. That's what I'm afraid 247 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:08,079 of. I do think that it is absolutely necessary to fix and check and 248 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,920 correct the Supreme Court. It is the duty of Congress and the President to 249 00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:18,119 check the Supreme Court when it gets out of control. Right with the system 250 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,440 of checks and balances. We all learned about this in school. When one 251 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,160 branch is out of control, the other two branches are supposed to check it. 252 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,279 That's what it means to have checks and balances. And the Supreme Court 253 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,640 is drunk on power right now and it absolutely needs to be checked. And 254 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,519 that is by the way, the institutionalist position, the question is how do 255 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:37,480 we do that? How should we do that? And there are a number 256 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,480 of proposals out there, some of them very creative. Personally, I'm for 257 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:47,119 court expansion, which I talk about in American Crusade quite a bit. I 258 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,000 do think an enforceable ethics code is a prerequisite. As we've seen from scandal 259 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:59,720 after scandal after scandal at this Supreme Court, that billionaires are effectively buying justices, 260 00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:03,960 and that has that kind of thing has got to stop. The proposals 261 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,720 for term limits are really fascinating and they are really attractive to the public at 262 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:14,359 large. They run into a constitutional problem because the Constitution itself says that judges 263 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,839 get to keep their office during good behavior. That's the phrase during good behavior, 264 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,319 which has been interpreted to mean a lifetime appointment unless they are impeached, 265 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:27,960 and the people who are in charge of interpreting that language are the justices themselves. 266 00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:34,200 So any kind of term limit proposal runs into that language and the fact 267 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,920 that those justices are going to interpret it. Now, there have been some 268 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,440 really since since then, there have been some really creative ways to maybe get 269 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,440 around that. For instance, just adding one new justice every two years, 270 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,559 no matter what, and letting the court sort out like how they're going to 271 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:55,279 deal with that. There have been proposals to not take the justices off the 272 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:57,839 Supreme Court, but to move them down to, for instance, like kind 273 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,000 of what's called scene your status within some of the lower courts, so they're 274 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:06,799 deciding much fewer cases. So there are some creative ways around that. But 275 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:10,319 we are not going to see like an actual term liment where people are off 276 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,799 the court in eighteen years, because that runs into a constitutional problem. All 277 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,079 right, So let me make sure. Because I'm a boy in your world 278 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,240 and you're at the constitutional attorney an expert, you're saying that it would require 279 00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:30,279 a constitutional amendment on the macro scale to change how the Supreme Court is formatted 280 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,440 as far as how many members, how many justices, no, just a 281 00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:37,000 lifetime appointments in terms of the number of justices. This is one of the 282 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:40,599 reasons I think that is a more attractive solution. The number of justices is 283 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,759 just decided by Congress, so that's just a law Congress. The number of 284 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,079 justices has changed. I think it's something like eleven or twelve times. I'd 285 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,920 have to go back and double check. Over the course of American history, 286 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,559 every thirty or forty years, I think is the average. It's been a 287 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:59,039 while, and all that takes is Congress to pass a law and the President 288 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,079 to sign it. Okay, well, I've got to interject here. Let's 289 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,839 say if we're dealing with a compromised Supreme Court. If you have a compromised 290 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,000 Congress determining changes to the Supreme Court, I feel like we're hosed. Am 291 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:18,759 I wrong? Hence the fear that I expressed in American Crusade about the window 292 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,759 closing after the twenty twenty two midterms. I mean, to me, the 293 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:30,759 Supreme Court is the number one issue that I am thinking about, because whatever 294 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:34,440 else you care about every other issue, Let's just take abortion. Right. 295 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:38,720 Let's say you want to bring back what the country looked like before Roe versus 296 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,200 Way was overturned. You could do that with a federal law. Right. 297 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,240 So there's a proposal called the Women's Health Protection Act that would effectively restore Roe 298 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:49,400 versus Way. Great, love it, Let's do it. Except in two 299 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,599 years after passage that same bill, that law, that new federal law is 300 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,279 going to be up before the Supreme Court again, and I don't know what 301 00:23:57,319 --> 00:24:00,599 you think, but I have a pretty good idea of what this Supreme Court 302 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,279 would do with a bill that restored Rovers's way. But the law that restored 303 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:11,000 rovers Is way, I have little doubt. And so every solution we have 304 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,880 to every problem that we face as a country is going to go through this 305 00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,759 Supreme Court. Remember that is why they captured it in the first place. 306 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:25,519 Remember that quote, abortion, gay rights, contraception. Conservatives didn't stand the 307 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:30,160 chance if public opinion prevailed. That is why they captured the Supreme Court in 308 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,079 the first place. Because they don't have to rely on public opinion, because 309 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,599 they don't have to rely on democracy and elections, because they can force their 310 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,000 policies upon all of us using those justices. And that is one of the 311 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,319 reasons that we need urgent correction of the Supreme Court. I've had a few 312 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:52,039 of my fellow lefties, and I'm a proud heathen liberal, but they've challenged 313 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,400 me on the election and how I'm voting, and I'm like, look, 314 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,160 I'm not voting for Potus, I'm voting for Scotus. Right, I'm voting 315 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,000 for a platform. I'm voting my values. I'm voting to protect state church 316 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,240 separation, especially under the shadow of Project twenty twenty five. I was just 317 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,839 bullet pointing a few of these in my own research. It would be illegal 318 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:18,759 to mail abortion pills across state lines. Pornography would be made illegal, same 319 00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:26,160 sex marriages over the elimination of the Department of Education, cutting a funding for 320 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,920 climate research, removing diversity and inclusion programs, reconsidering which journalists would even be 321 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:40,240 part of the White House Press core, defunding of public broadcasting, partisan control 322 00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:44,599 of the Department of Justice, the FBI, the FCC, the Department of 323 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Commerce, the FTC, dismantling the Department of Homeland Security, the arrest, 324 00:25:51,039 --> 00:26:00,839 detention, and deportation of undocumented immigrants, deploying the military for domestic law enforcement, 325 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,920 which I think some are interpreting as anyone deemed disloyal to the administration would 326 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,000 become what an enemy of democracy or illegal in their own right and might have 327 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:15,680 to face the military deployed against them. Am I reading that wrong, Andrew? 328 00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:21,680 No, I mean a good chunk of what you said is very fair, 329 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:23,480 And I mean, and you know what you're talking about is coming from 330 00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:26,519 the Handbook, And I just want to remind people like the handbook is what 331 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:32,640 the architects of Project twenty twenty five were comfortable publishing for all the world to 332 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,920 see. But the groups that are behind it are just as important and they 333 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,200 have called for even more extreme things. So some of what you're seeing, 334 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,359 you know, kind of out there right now, some of information connects those 335 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,799 what the groups of behind Project twenty twenty five have said and talks about it 336 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:51,359 as part of Project twenty twenty five, which I think is fair. But 337 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,960 then this gets kind of, you know, sort of fact checked in the 338 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,759 media and can be can get people kind of confused because there's a lot of 339 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:02,480 pushback now against people highlighting what Project twenty twenty five wants to do. And 340 00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:06,200 no fault divorce is probably a really good example here. People may have seen 341 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,319 it's connected to Project twenty twenty five. You can't actually find it in the 342 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,440 handbook in that nine under page book, but Media Matters reported that twenty two 343 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:19,960 at least twenty two of the Project twenty to twenty five advisory board members have 344 00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:25,160 attacked or outright called for the end of no fault divorce, and that's the 345 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,799 option to dissolve a marriage without having to prove any wrongdoing. Right. So 346 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,119 as we are translating the language of that handbook about, for instance, protecting 347 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,160 the biblically based definition of marriage and family, those things are really useful data 348 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,839 points for interpreting and translating that language. So is Liz and Gabe's case. 349 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,319 And I just want to I want to highlight one other thing for folks, 350 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:52,039 because I think particularly that litany that you just gave note that is overwhelming, 351 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,319 right, And that is one of the things that we are trying to change 352 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:03,400 at Americans United. We are trying to give people a foothold, a handhold 353 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,359 so that they can actually have conversations about Project twenty twenty five that don't make 354 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,960 it seem like they're in their basement with the red yarn going crazy, right. 355 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,839 And So two things that we'd really encourage people to do is one, 356 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,839 share the video of Liz and Gabe. That is going to do more to 357 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,240 change minds than a lot of the work that you can do posting on social 358 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,000 media. Don't just share it on your social media, share it with your 359 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:32,519 group texts, right, share it with your chats from your college friends. 360 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,200 We know now that more people are getting their information about politics from things like 361 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,359 group chats than they are from TV news, especially cable news, and from 362 00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:42,119 social media, which was you know, kind of the most recent couple elections 363 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,839 where people have been getting their info. And the other thing Americans United has 364 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:52,880 done is we have put together a toolkit for people to have these conversations to 365 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,200 address Project twenty twenty five on their text message chains and with their families over 366 00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:02,240 dinner. And so you can get that toolkit at au dot org slash Project 367 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,440 twenty twenty five. You just scroll down a little bit after you see some 368 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,319 of the following the money you'll see I'll link to it. It's a really 369 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:12,759 short, helpful way to get you thinking about how to talk about the threat 370 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:18,599 that Project twenty twenty five poses. And if you are just overwhelmed, just 371 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,559 go share, share lizen, gabes video, share their story and that will 372 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:25,559 do a lot to help move the needle on Project twenty twenty five. And 373 00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:29,720 I just one more thing that I think is just a really useful data point 374 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:37,119 is that seventy six percent of Americans know little or nothing about Project twenty twenty 375 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,559 five. So those of us who are online and paying attention to set right, 376 00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:41,720 thank you, And I like, we know what this is about like 377 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,039 our first post about Project twenty twenty five. It's like back in November or 378 00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:51,920 something. But studies also show that the more people learn about Project twenty twenty 379 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,720 five, the more they oppose it. So successfully, warning even like one 380 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,759 or two people about this threat can make a big difference, and it can 381 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:03,160 still that domino effect of raising awareness. It's like when I was talking to 382 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,799 Nick Fish, president of American Atheist, about these school voucher programs. He 383 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,519 was like, you know, everywhere this has been polled, the public doesn't 384 00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,559 want it, right everywhere in every state, Like the public said, nah, 385 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,720 let's not do that. So I mean we're talking definitely about raising awareness 386 00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:23,960 because public opinion can matter. I'm not so much of a patent. I'm 387 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,839 scared and kind of jaded, and I do feel my skin turning to scar 388 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,759 tissue. You ever feel that, Andrew. But I'm still engaged. I 389 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:34,799 still hold out a little bit of hope. There is still a ray of 390 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:40,400 light out there that I'm rushing toward, and I think awareness is important. 391 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,720 I'm going to link to the video. I'm going to link to your Project 392 00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:48,960 twenty twenty five link from AU in the description box, and I appreciate you 393 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,599 educating us, and we're going to continue to educate ourselves out there and we'll 394 00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:56,799 talk again. Okay, absolutely, my friend. Thank you for grabbing me 395 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:02,240 on Follow the Thank You Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of 396 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:07,000 podcasts and videos. 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