WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:06.360 Where you do it? Do you swear and refirm the testimony about to get 2 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:09.480 as a place to help you that I do. Please stuff that you have 3 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:17.239 to see. Please stay your name for like to start your first semester Sean 4 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:26.199 sah Wn Hopkins hop ki ns go have past. Thank you? Sure? 5 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.960 How are you? I'm here? Sir? Do you work with for the 6 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:35.039 Do you work for the Oxford School District? I have been employed for the 7 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:39.399 Oxford School District. I'm currently have meeting at this morning. Now I'd like 8 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:44.359 to direct your attention specifically to the fall of twenty twenty one. We Are 9 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:48.679 you working with Oxford School District at that point? Yes? And what role? 10 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:53.799 I was a counselor in Oxford High School And tell us please what general 11 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:59.399 duties are associated with that particular role. I managed a caseload of about four 12 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:03.439 hundreds students. With that I was in charge of scheduling for those students, 13 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:11.200 preparing them for life after high school by helping them kind of look through different 14 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:19.000 potential job opportunities, caring for social emotional wellness for students, and being kind 15 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:23.439 of just a general person who would be consistent throughout their time in high school 16 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.480 working with them Okay, you said you have a case a little about four 17 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.799 hundred students. Yes, how many students went to Oster High School that particular 18 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:38.560 time, There were approximately eighteen hundred students divided amongst four counselors. There were 19 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:42.439 sixteen hundred, and then approximately two hundred in an early college program as well. 20 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.959 So in November excuse me, November twenty twenty one, approximately how long 21 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:53.120 had you been employed of Ashter High School? I started as an intern in 22 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.040 twenty fourteen and was hired full time in Paul of twenty fifteen. Okay, 23 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.079 tell me a little bit of at your background place. I came out of 24 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:06.840 college, graduated with a degree in youth ministry, worked as a youth pastor 25 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:12.159 starting in two thousand and nine, and then did that and went back to 26 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:19.319 school for a master's degree in counseling. I graduated with that actually walked in 27 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:24.479 December of twenty fourteen, and started working in the high school thereafter. Now, 28 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:30.960 you mentioned your role included helping students transition into post a secondary either education 29 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:36.919 or employment scheduling, as well as social emotional issues. Yes, would one 30 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.840 of those roles take precedence? It would add and flow depending on the time 31 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:45.080 of the year, But there was never anything that you did that was this 32 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:50.599 is the most important thing, because to it was what student you were with 33 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.159 at the time. To a senior going to college, helping them with that 34 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:59.280 college application took precedence in that moment. To a student sitting in front of 35 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:04.280 you with social emotional needs, that took precedence in that moment. So did 36 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.000 you have regular check ins with students or was it an as need a basis? 37 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:13.919 It depended on what it was for. We did have regular meetings with 38 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.360 students in regards to scheduling, but when it came to social emotional that was 39 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:23.120 more of an as needed basis. Did your role as a counselor involved discipline 40 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:25.520 in students? No? Okay, who took care of that? That would 41 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:30.400 have been the dean or our administration? Okay. And in November of twenty 42 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:35.080 twenty one, who was the dean Nikki Jack right? And did you work 43 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.120 with him a lot? No? I didn't. He was actually new to 44 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:44.080 the district that year. So is there a reason why the counselor would be 45 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:49.039 separate from the discipline of students. The counselor's role was to be a student 46 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:57.719 advocate to remain on the side of the student through difficult situations oftentimes, to 47 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.960 give the students somebody that they could build that us and rapport with. Where 48 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:05.919 the dean would be enforcing code of conduct? What code of conduct? What's 49 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:11.840 that? The standards that are expected to be followed by students thanks a rule 50 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:15.560 that would be a part of it. Yes, yes, Now, in 51 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:21.000 the fall of twenty twenty one, was Oxford High School in person, hybrid 52 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:26.759 or remote? Oxford High School was in person? We're all students and teachers 53 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:30.680 wearing face masks at that point, Yes, they were. In the fall 54 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.720 of twenty twenty one, What sort of issues issues would you face with the 55 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:43.240 students? Social emotional health? Social emotional health was definitely on our radar in 56 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.319 the fall of twenty twenty one, coming out of COVID, coming out of 57 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.720 time, being out from school, the anxiety that was associated at that time 58 00:04:53.759 --> 00:05:00.240 period. We saw a lot of issues for students, whether it be anxiety, 59 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:05.639 whether it be depression. In a few cases, it was suicide attempts. 60 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:11.560 Now that year, did you encounter any students who actually had attempted suicide? 61 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:17.160 I did? How many? And we score sturre? You fuiliar with 62 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:21.360 the term suicidal ideation. Yes, I am familiar with that term. Would 63 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:27.920 you please explain to us what that means. Suicidal ideation is checked to relevance. 64 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.879 Believe this when this will testify that he indicated that the defendant son was 65 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:36.439 expressing signs of suicidal ideation that was expressed to defend it. Well, that 66 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:42.120 was his belated at the time, right, So I don't know why what's 67 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:49.879 suicidal ideation. Suicidal ideation is looking at themes, ideas, behaviors which could 68 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:58.399 be associated with suicide. So when you take sadness, depression, anxiety, 69 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.800 those on their own aren't necessary suicidal. And when we look at them, 70 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:06.879 we may see somebody who is not actively suicidal, that may not be expressing 71 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:11.759 a date or a plan or a method, but we see themes that, 72 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:18.319 if left unchecked, could be associated with potentially becoming suicidal. Okay, Now, 73 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.800 as your role as a counselor at Oxford High School, as you double 74 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:27.680 students who were expressing suicidal ideation separate from those who actually attempted suicidal. Yes, 75 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:33.480 could you put a number on how many dozens that was? You mentioned 76 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:39.800 that there were four counselors for a school of around seventeen hundred eighteen nerds or 77 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:45.480 so? How was it that each student was assigned to a counselor. Of 78 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:48.439 the students who are not in the early college program, they were divided out 79 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:55.199 alphabetically. Amongst their counselors was James Trembley's son, one of the students assigned 80 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:59.360 your case load in November twenty twenty one. Yes, is James trembling court 81 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:01.560 today? Yes he is. He's please a pointing him to scratch something he's 82 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.480 wearing today. He is stated at this table wearing a suit coat with the 83 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.759 blue tie you're on. Who had the record reflect identification of defendin the record 84 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.720 reflect in court identification in the defendant? James Punley, Sir, What is 85 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:20.279 the first time that you would have interacted with James Trumbley's son. The first 86 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:25.720 time that I likely interacted with him would have been scheduling during his freshman year. 87 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:29.560 Okay, So for contact November twenty twenty, when he was a sophomore, 88 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.079 is that right? That is correct? Okay? So this would have 89 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:38.680 been August or September of twenty twenty. No, when students are in eighth 90 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.680 grade, they're scheduled at the middle school level. I may or may not 91 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:45.759 have been in his classroom because it's divided out within their eighth grade classrooms, 92 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.040 and we're not really we don't know the students at all at that point. 93 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:54.439 Okay, I would have done scheduling with him during his freshman year, approximately 94 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:59.040 Dobruary of twenty twenty one. February twenty one, Yes, okay, those 95 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.040 meetings were done for virtually and we're not in depth and we're only to discuss 96 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.839 their next year's schedule. Do you remember anything about that meeting. If you 97 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:16.120 can, I don't remember that meeting. I'm going to show you, first 98 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.000 of all, if you recall when is the next time that you had any 99 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.519 interaction with the defended sun. I don't recall this particular meeting, but I 100 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:30.519 know that there was a phone call in spring of twenty twenty one from a 101 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:35.000 teacher to me, and then I called into the student's classroom to meet with 102 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.600 the student. I do not remember that meeting. All right, I'm gonna 103 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:43.639 show you what'spend if it is Exhibit one ninety eight. This is an email 104 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:50.120 May thirteen, twenty twenty one, six in the afternoon, without telling it's 105 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.200 that person's name. Who was that person? Who sent an email without telling 106 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.720 well, who does she work there at Oxford High School? She was an 107 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.679 English teacher, okay, and the email is high when he get a chance, 108 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.559 can you call the defendant son down and see how he's doing? He 109 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:11.000 is failing my class and try to sleep all the time in the class. 110 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.480 Thanks. That's the exhibit one ninety eight May thirteen, twenty twenty one. 111 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:18.679 You received this email, Yes, I did, okay, And the response 112 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.240 from you at two o seven pm is I'll catch him before the end of 113 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.279 the day. And then her response at two eight was thanks, just a 114 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:30.360 little worried. Okay. Did you have any interaction with the defendant son because 115 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:37.440 of the email I have through phone records, I called into his student's classroom 116 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.480 and called him down to my office. I don't remember that particular meeting, 117 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.000 okay, but at least your recollections that you would have had that meeting. 118 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:52.000 The evidence from everything suggests that I had that. Sure, that's fair. 119 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:58.000 Did you contact either James or Jennifer Crumbley That I did not, okay, 120 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:05.440 and why are whe It was a check in and it didn't raise to the 121 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:09.320 level of concern where I would contact a parent now as a counselor with Oxford 122 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.120 High School. Did you have a sort of method or protocol for when you 123 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:20.320 determine when is a contact a parent. There isn't a set like there isn't 124 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.320 always a set level of when you do it. But when something becomes repeated 125 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:31.399 or when something becomes more concerning, I am going to then involve a parent. 126 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:37.320 Okay. Oor grades available to parents on a district ride basis. Yes 127 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.919 they are. They are available through a system called Power School, which is 128 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.320 available online. Okay. And that's the system that apparents can log in daily 129 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.360 if they would choose to as often as they would like. Now, the 130 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.399 next a reaction you had with the defendants Sun would be September two, twenty 131 00:10:54.440 --> 00:11:00.759 twenty one. I did not actually have an interaction with the defendant Son. 132 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.720 I received information about the defendant son. Okay, I'm showing you Exhibit one 133 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.720 ninety nine. This is an email from a different teacher to September eight, 134 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.679 twenty twenty one. Yes, okay, And why don't you go ahead and 135 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.240 read the email here that you've received. Hi, Sean, could you please 136 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.200 touch base with student? In his autobiography Pome, he said that he feels 137 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.759 terrible and that his family is a mistake. Our usual response is for sure, 138 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.679 okay. That is September of the eight, twenty twenty one. Do 139 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.679 you recall any interaction with the defendant son at that point? I do not. 140 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:41.519 Okay. Now do you recall any meetings, check ins, or phone 141 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:48.759 calls from September to November of two and eight twenty one? No? So 142 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:52.639 to give context on this, what I did was have a conversation with the 143 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:58.679 teacher to gain a little more context of blood was meant by the email, 144 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.080 and then the teacher filled me in that the student was actually joking with others 145 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.240 in the class and that it was not at full level of concern that she 146 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.039 hain't believed what she said. Okay, So if I'm correct, then you 147 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.679 received the email, then you they contact with the teacher who sent you the 148 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.120 email. Yes, okay, and then the determination was made that no further 149 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:24.279 involvement was required. Correct, I'm We'll show you what's Oh this is your 150 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.600 response. Thanks for the heads up. I'm in senior meetings throughout the day, 151 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.519 but we'll try and catch up with him. That was the same teacher 152 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.360 September eight, twenty twenty one, nine fifteen. Yes, that is correct. 153 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.200 This is People's Exhibits two hundred. This is November the tenth, twenty 154 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.679 twenty one. The same teacher emailed you, Hi, Sean, the defense 155 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:48.759 Sun is having a rough time right now. He might need to speak with 156 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.080 you. Do you recall that email? I do, okay, and tell 157 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.720 us what you did when you received that email. I checked in with the 158 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:03.960 student in a hallway in between classes to just let them know that if they 159 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:07.960 were having a hard time that I was available to talk to you. And 160 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.399 here's your response at four forty four pm. I'm sorry, I was in 161 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.039 the meeting through the end of the day. I'll catch up with them. 162 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.960 So you recall that interaction with the defendants on yes, okay, tell us 163 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.759 about that way. It was in between classes, I believe the morning after 164 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.919 I'd responded to this email, and I just spoke to him briefly in passing 165 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.240 to let him know that if he needed to talk for any reason, that 166 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.159 I would make myself available for him. Okay. Did you make a decision 167 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.600 to contact a parent at that point? I did not. Okay, you 168 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.519 did not contact a parent. I did not contact a parent. And tell 169 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.440 us whis because I wanted to gain any information from the student and allow the 170 00:13:50.480 --> 00:14:00.799 student the opportunity to talk. Being sad isn't unusual. But if I had 171 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:05.320 no information other than the student is sad, it's not something I would call 172 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.679 a parent over and once the next time you've had any interaction with the defendant 173 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.639 son. November twenty ninth. All right, I'm gonna show you what spit 174 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:24.039 minutes people two on one. This is an email from a teacher to mister 175 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.919 e Jack and miss Fine and you eventually were cced on this email. I 176 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.519 was forwarded this email. Okay, yes, The email says good morning night 177 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.039 a student during first hour today, the defendant son, who was on his 178 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.720 phone looking at different bullets at the end of first hour today as I was 179 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.480 walking around the room passing out their essays, I didn't get a chance to 180 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.080 investigated a bit further since it was the end of the hour. Now that 181 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.039 he's on my radar, I'm also noticing some of his previous work that he's 182 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.840 completed from earlier in the year leans a bit toward the violent side. I 183 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.000 can bring down these things later today during my fifth hour, prop if you 184 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:03.159 would like that. And then it was at nine thirty four am, Yes, 185 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.240 it was okay, And then your response was thanks Jacqueline, I'll be 186 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:11.240 touching base with him as well. Yes, okay, and tell us what 187 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:16.240 happened with this birs. I ended up going down to Miss Fine's office. 188 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.159 Who was on the initial email? So who's Mike? She was our restorative 189 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:28.159 practices coordinator at that time, and she called the student down to her office 190 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.960 to chat about the email that at then a since were you present for that 191 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.679 meeting? I was present for that meeting. Okay, tell us about that 192 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.200 place. The student came down towards the end of the second class of the 193 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:46.639 day and Miss Fine led the meeting. I was there to be a support 194 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.639 for the student in case it became a disciplinary issue. But it was very 195 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.840 cordial. We say support for the student in case it became a disciplinary issue. 196 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.320 That's not for you to discipline, correct, That is correct. I 197 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:07.039 would be there just as somebody who's able to be a comfort to the student 198 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.320 during a time where they may potentially be experiencing miscipline. Now at that point, 199 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:17.759 was everybody wearing a COVID face mask? Yes they were, And in 200 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.360 fact, have you ever interacted with the defendant sun without a COVID face mask. 201 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.120 No, I did that, so you said, Miss Fine led the 202 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.919 meeting. I'm sorry I interrupted you. Yes, Miss Vine did leave the 203 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.519 meeting. She had a conversation with the student about the email that was received 204 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:40.480 and led it in a way to see if the student would would bring any 205 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:45.200 information available based on what the email was received where. She asked him, 206 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:52.080 were you looking at anything in class? Were you looking at what teacher? 207 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.279 Were you looking at this information in the class to see if he would acknowledge 208 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.000 that it was Ms Kanina who sent the email. He did. He was 209 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:07.799 compliant during that meeting, and the conversation centered around how it was not school 210 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:15.599 appropriate. The student understood and we stated he understood and was returned to class. 211 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:22.559 Phone hall was in place to the student's mom from this fine, okay? 212 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.359 And we heard that last week during the trial, I was from Miss 213 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.359 Fine to Jennifer Crumbling Venice correct, okay? And was that a voicemail that 214 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.680 was left? It was left as a voicemail. Yes. Did the defendant 215 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.880 son indicate that he received the gun for Christmas a few days before? No? 216 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:45.400 So what happened next week? In retterms at that meeting, Yes, 217 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.839 the meeting was over. He returned to class. How long was the meeting 218 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:57.960 five to ten minutes? Not in the realm of either discipline or your role 219 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:03.519 as a counselor what does it take to move from a check into a phone 220 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:10.480 call home? It can be subjective. Oftentimes it would be if there's information 221 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:15.039 we feel that it's necessary for parents to know somewhere it's obvious as if you 222 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:19.880 feel the student may be a threat to himself, or if there's any potential 223 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:26.599 that that could be a possibility if you have concerning information that the student is 224 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.799 shared, or it could just be simply to confirm what a student has said 225 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.960 is true. So that's a phone call home. What does it take to 226 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.759 actually call the parents in For me immediately, I would have to have a 227 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:45.599 high level of concern that needed parental involvement. And when was the next time 228 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.160 you've had any interaction with the defendive sum? Okay, so that would be 229 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:56.000 Tuesday the next day? Yes, right, So let's talk about the thirtieth 230 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.720 I'm going to show you People's Exhibit two hundred and two is an email on 231 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.799 Tuesday, November thirtieth, twenty twenty one. You know, five am from 232 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:10.960 a teacher, So you Missfine, good morning. I know Jackie emailed you 233 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.759 guys yesterday with some concerns about the defendant sun in our first hour class today, 234 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.799 he's watching videos on his phone of a guy gunning down people that looks 235 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.880 like it's a movie scene and not security footage slash a real event, but 236 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.039 definitely still concerning the taking into account some of his other behaviors. Just wanted 237 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.720 to keep the guys updated. Do you recall receive in that email? I 238 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:36.079 do remember when you receive it? Well, it was set at eight oh 239 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:40.720 five. I believe I saw it approximately twenty to thirty minutes later. Okay, 240 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.960 And what was your reaction when you received this email? My initial reaction 241 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:51.079 was frustration of a student that just had a conversation about the school appropriate behavior, 242 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.440 and I wanted to make sure that I met with him. Okay. 243 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:02.880 So this is exhibit two of three. This is from another teacher to at 244 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:07.559 nine thirty two am again Tuesday, the number thirtieth. Here's the photo I 245 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:12.720 took of his paper in case you needed with a picture of a math assignment. 246 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.799 Now, what happened in between the time you saw this email at the 247 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.160 Senate eight oh five to this email of Senate nine thirty two. So I 248 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:29.359 was on the phone with other parents at the time I received the first email, 249 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.319 and when I was done with that phone call at that time, mister 250 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.640 e Jack actually was in my office as I was wrapping up the phone call. 251 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:44.319 Okay. He had been presented with the picture of the math assignment from 252 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.119 the math teacher and wanted to make sure I was involved in that the special 253 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.920 station. I don't know exactly what it was. I know he was showing 254 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.359 a picture on a cell phone. Okay, I would believe it was the 255 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.799 initial one, but I do not know that for a fact. I'd ever 256 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:04.319 se solve the celt That's fair. So he wanted to involve me in a 257 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:10.440 conversation with the student about the math assignment, and I wanted to talk to 258 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:15.200 the student about the email that had been sent that morning. I do not 259 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.200 know if he was on that email, mister E Jack was on that email 260 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.240 about the watching the video or not. Okay, So we saw we talked 261 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.519 about the emails in that morning. We're referring to this email regarding the video. 262 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.960 Yes, okay, So this is the information I had at the time 263 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.440 that I was making a decision to meet with the student and mister e Jack 264 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.759 had the information that there was a math assignment was something on it. So 265 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.960 at the time that you decided to meet with the defendant son, you hadn't 266 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.920 even seen this picture yet. That is correct, okay, so go ahead. 267 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.480 When I when mister Ejack came and mentioned that there was something going on 268 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.039 with the student, I made the decision that I was going to go to 269 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:59.920 the math class and retreat the student. It's less concerning oftentimes for a counselor 270 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:06.079 to walk into a class then a dean, because I could be talking about 271 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:11.759 fifty different things with the student, so it just isn't going to raise suspicion 272 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:17.640 for others. So I went to the class and asked the student if he 273 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.680 could come with me, and I grabbed the math assignment as part of it. 274 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.319 So he grabbed the manth assignment mostly who was gonna admit it is Exhibit 275 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.000 one twenty eight. Now, this math assignment looks different than the one that 276 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:37.000 was emailed to you. Did you receive an explanation as to why I didn't 277 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.759 know there was a difference initially because for the first thirty minutes all I had 278 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.680 was the actual physical copy and that would be this an exhibit one twenty eight. 279 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.160 Yes, okay, yes, So, as I was meeting with the 280 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:55.359 student in the office, I had the email about what had been sent about 281 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:59.359 watching videos, and I had the copy that is currently on the screen of 282 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.640 the math aside. I know, so I initially asked the student, what 283 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.759 was what was it that you were watching in class? Why am I receiving 284 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:14.880 an email from a teacher one day after I know you just had a conversation 285 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.240 about what's appropriate in school and what's not. The student told me he was 286 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:26.119 watching a video game on his phone. Not uncommon, also not school appropriate, 287 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:30.640 especially given the context of what we had just had in the conversation. 288 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:37.519 So we had a conversation about making that good choice and making wise choices. 289 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:42.279 And then I grabbed the math assignment and I put it in between the student 290 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:47.000 and I. So, mister e Jack was actually in that meeting as well. 291 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:51.240 He sat kind of off to my right. The student was across from 292 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:56.160 me, across from my desk, and I asked him, okay, so 293 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.039 we can talk about you know, making good choice is in the classroom, 294 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.759 but let's talk about this. And I put the assignment in between us, 295 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.480 and what stood out to you when you saw it. Well, I wanted 296 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.519 him to explain it to me. But some of the things that actually stood 297 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.079 out to me the most for what was written on it, because I read 298 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:22.599 something like the thoughts won't stop, and I could read help me underneath it 299 00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:30.440 being crossed out. Yes, I read a harmless act. I saw what 300 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:36.240 looked like one body in my initial concern, which this students drawing some things 301 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.440 that lead me to think he might hurt himself. So I asked him to 302 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.920 explain what's on here, because I didn't want it to just be me interpreting 303 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.839 what people would. I wanted to hear what he had to say about it. 304 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.960 And he told me initially that it was a video game that he liked, 305 00:24:53.200 --> 00:25:00.519 like drawing video game characters, liked liked that area of that entertainment, 306 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:04.319 and that he wanted to go into video game design. So that I told 307 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:11.279 him, Okay, you can tell me that, but let's explain these words. 308 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:15.279 Here. Here you write your thoughts won't stop. Here you write harmless 309 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:19.400 act, and here you write I have a look at I think it was 310 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.839 like my life is useless or something like that, where it crossed it all. 311 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:30.039 Yeah, And I said that doesn't sound like a video game to me, 312 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.640 so I say it. Then you didn't accept his explanation of the video 313 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.039 game not in totality, No, because I wanted to gain more context. 314 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:45.160 So did you make a decision at that point to do something? Well? 315 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:49.599 As he continued talking, he then started talking about things that were going on 316 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.720 in his way. What do you mean you're going on? Well? He 317 00:25:52.839 --> 00:26:00.839 mentioned that school's been tough during COVID, that a family member had passed recently, 318 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.599 a family dog had died, he said, a friend moved away, 319 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.759 and as he was talking, I just kept hearing all these themes of sadness. 320 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:18.359 What was it? Demeanor like appropriately sad? It? Natch? What 321 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:26.319 he was saying nice? And so at that point I told him, Okay, 322 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.759 this is a lot that you've got going on, and I want to 323 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:37.400 make sure that we get you help. And so I told him, when 324 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.279 I hear all this, what I do is I'm gonna call a parent. 325 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:48.279 And I asked him, is there a parent you'd rather I call? He 326 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:52.680 told me Mom would probably be easier to get hold of. So I called 327 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:59.599 Mom first and left the voice fail. This would have been approximately twenty to 328 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:07.240 twenty five minutes after the meeting started. So at this point I just decided 329 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.880 that it was enough that I wanted to involve a parent. All right, 330 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.599 you said you called Mom first and left the voicemail. I did. Did 331 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.640 you also call the defendant, James Brumlin? I did, and it was 332 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:23.559 right after leaving a voicemail. I'm not entirely sure if he answered or not. 333 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.680 I think he did, but it was almost like it was almost like 334 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:33.799 there was just air on the other end, so I wasn't able to leave 335 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:40.799 a message or anything. Mom then called me back a few minutes later and 336 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:48.880 we talked for I would guess five or six minutes. She was on speakerphone 337 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.000 with her son for a brief part of that conversation, and I asked her 338 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:57.799 to please be able to come in that I had some concerns I wanted to 339 00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:03.000 go over. I texted her, did you specify those concerns? Well? 340 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.799 I texted her a picture of the math assignment, and by that time I 341 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:12.200 also then received the email that I think you put up earlier, so of 342 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:18.200 the math assignment. By this point in time, this was nine thirty two 343 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:21.960 am that miss Morgan Senate was the defendant sent already in your office at that 344 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.200 point, yes, okay. And then did you have a chance to look 345 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.400 at this picture as well? I looked briefly at it, but I was 346 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.440 already on the phone with mom at that point. Okay, this is Exhibit 347 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.880 one thirty. This is what we referred It was the original drawing. Okay, 348 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.519 And you said you were on the phone with Jennifer Crimley at that point. 349 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.519 Yeah, so I emailed her then the original drawing as well. Okay, 350 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:48.200 so you sent this to the student's mother, yes, And did you 351 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:52.000 have a chance to look at this I did look at it. Most of 352 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:56.400 it confirmed what I thought was under the scribble outs, and I also noticed 353 00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.119 some words worth added. Okay, what words stood off thea What do you 354 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:04.920 mean when you said words were added? What did you notice on the one 355 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:10.240 where he added words? I know he added like oiches rocks or we're all 356 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:15.200 friends here, which I kind of took as just a fifteen year old writing 357 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.960 things. It didn't So you're referring to this Exhibit one twenty eight some additional 358 00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:25.000 word, Yes, he added video game. This is Oliches rocks. I 359 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:30.039 think I loved my life so much? Was added things that were facetious, 360 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.880 and that was after he was seen with this. Is that correct? Is 361 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:41.119 it? It was after he created this? Yes, it existed and its 362 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:48.039 form is Exhibit one to thirty prior to the edits that I had seen it 363 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:55.640 on the paper. Now, at some point, did both James and Jennifer 364 00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:00.880 Crumbley come to your office? Yeah, So I ended up being on the 365 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.240 phone with mom for that five to six minutes. She stated she was going 366 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:08.440 to try and get Dad to come to the office and she was unable to. 367 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:17.359 And so during that point we had about twenty minutes where I was sort 368 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.720 of just waiting. During that time, I showed the student the list of 369 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.559 resources I was going to give to his parents. Tell me about that place. 370 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:32.680 It was about a three page list of just different mental health services in 371 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:40.839 the area. On it it gave contact information for them, It gave the 372 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:47.839 specialization areas for them, and it gave oftentimes insurance if it was accepted, 373 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:52.079 if they worked without insurance, anything that they would work with pavement plants. 374 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:57.799 So I wanted him to see what I would be providing his patents. Was 375 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:02.880 the defendant son with you from the point that you brought him out of class 376 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.680 to the point that James and Jennifer from the arround to school. Yes, 377 00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:10.519 okay? And approximately how long was that? It was approximately an hour and 378 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:17.880 a half, so around I want to say a little before ten, probably 379 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:22.920 like nine nine fifty. I received another call from Mom stating that she was 380 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.359 unable to get a hold of Dad and that she would be coming it. 381 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:29.880 Okay, Now, if I told you that we saw a surveillance video that 382 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.240 indicated you welcome them, both James and Jennifer in your office at ten forty 383 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:38.279 am, does that sound right? Yeah? That sounds about right. Now. 384 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.839 What was your expectations of what was to happen at the end of that 385 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:48.519 meeting? My hope is that they were going to take him and either it 386 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.880 take him to get help or even just to take him to let's have a 387 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.519 good day, Let's have a let's have a day where we just spend time 388 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:04.839 with you, where we are to take him out of school? Yeah? 389 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:07.920 Did you believe that he could be left alone? At that point? I 390 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:13.119 didn't want him left alone. I didn't want to make that decision that he 391 00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:17.400 was okay to be left alone. So that's why I stayed with him for 392 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:24.119 as long as I did until I had parents there. Did you express to 393 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:31.000 the student or his parents that you identified suicide ideation? Yes, I said 394 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.839 that the student. When I asked the student if he had a plan, 395 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:40.720 if he was a threat to himself or others, the students said his words 396 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:45.480 were something to the effective I can see why this looks bad. I'm not 397 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:49.880 going to do anything. So I had all of this information, but the 398 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:55.440 student was saying he wasn't going to be doing anything. So when the parents 399 00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:01.160 came in, I went over all of the things I had seen with over 400 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:08.559 my time with the student that he expressed the sadness over over a dog passing. 401 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:15.599 He expressed that COVID has been hard, that a family member passed, 402 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:22.680 that a friend left. He expressed an argument the night before with parents. 403 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.880 Did he tell you details about the argument? Did he tell you that he 404 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:34.599 received the gun a few days ago? No tell us about the meeting. 405 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:42.119 When James and Jennifer arrived, it was initially odd to me that they were 406 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:47.480 both there because I wasn't expecting that, but not to the point where I 407 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:54.119 asked anything about it, just it was unexpected. Both parents followed me back 408 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.119 to my office. The student that was the one time he was in there 409 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:02.480 by himself. Was when I went out to greet the parents and brought them 410 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:12.639 back, and the student and his dad sat across from me and moms fat 411 00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:17.360 in the chair kind of diagonal from me, and mister e Jak had left 412 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.039 once we had confirmed parents were coming, and he returned for that portion of 413 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:29.719 the meeting. So really I felt like parents were confirming what I had said 414 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.119 without giving additional information. Well, hang on, let me let me ask 415 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:37.079 you about that. You say confirming without giving additional information. I want to 416 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.559 make sure I understand what you mean by that. So, first of all, 417 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.480 you've had these kind of meetings of parents in the past, I have. 418 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:47.719 Okay, when you say confirming, is that something that would typically happen 419 00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:58.800 to these meetings? It could, but oftentimes you might gain additional information, 420 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.960 as you know, as a school employee, I had ninety the nice Okay, 421 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.320 she's fifteen years old. So did James or Jennifer give you any additional 422 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:15.840 information? No, So tell me what you did and what what was said. 423 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:20.599 So to start off the meeting, I asked mom if she had received 424 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.840 if she had received the phone call from the previous day, and then those 425 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:30.000 events were true. She said, yes. I talked about how how the 426 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:36.320 student had expressed these different areas of sadness. That is, dog passed, 427 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:45.039 Yes, family member had passed. Yeah, friends left and all of those 428 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:51.119 were just confirmed. Is there any details about the circumstances of the friend leaving 429 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.480 and the impact on their son. I didn't know any details about it. 430 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:59.119 They didn't share it with you. No, I'm sorry, I interrupted again 431 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:04.960 to that. So, so a lot of it was I felt like I 432 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:09.920 was bringing information and they knew it, but I wasn't. I wasn't gaining 433 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.719 information. So at that point, I know, I handed Mom the list 434 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:22.519 of resources and and said I'd like him to get support outside of here. 435 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.079 I'd like him to get help and have somebody that he can talk to you. 436 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.119 And Mom made mention that they would, but they couldn't right away. 437 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:37.239 So I told Mom that I wanted him to get help as soon as possible 438 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.920 today, if possible, And it was told that wasn't possible. Told by 439 00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:47.159 James Jennifer by Jennifer, James at that time, to my memory, was 440 00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.599 talking with his son. I remember it. Yes, he was looking at 441 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:58.519 the math assignment with his son, Masimon. We're talking about the hard copy, 442 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:00.559 So we're refering to this if it why eight? Yes, okay? 443 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.400 And he was talking to his son and mentioned it. You know, you 444 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:13.400 have people you can talk to. You can talk to your counselor you have 445 00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:22.679 your journal. We talk and it felt appropriate at that time. But at 446 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:29.159 that point did he share any details about anything you had discussed? I don't. 447 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:35.960 I don't recall any additional details now. But my concern at that point 448 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.960 was that there wasn't any action happening. When his wife said the cants, 449 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:45.800 did he protest that? No? So you said you got a concern that 450 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:47.800 no action was happening, So what did you decide to do? Well? 451 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:55.360 I told them that with getting help, I said, I wanted to see 452 00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:00.440 movement on forty eight out within forty eight hours, and then I'd be follow 453 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.719 If the shooting didn't occur, what was your plan? I was going to 454 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:08.719 meet with the student the next morning and see if they had had conversations about 455 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.320 it, if they had made some plans to move towards some sort of therapy. 456 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:15.920 And if that didn't occur, what were you going to do? I 457 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:22.280 was going to call child protective Services. Now, generally speaking within Oxford High 458 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:28.119 School, is it preferred to send the school the student home when an issue 459 00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:31.239 arises or keep the student at school. I'm not sure I understand what you 460 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:37.480 mean with that. So you didn't force even call the police. As a 461 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.280 counselor, I can't send a student home, okay, But you didn't want 462 00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:44.000 him to be alone. I didn't want him to be alone. So in 463 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:47.039 this context, my thought was when parents were saying they had to return to 464 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:54.000 work, I wanted to make sure the student was with people because my concern 465 00:38:54.199 --> 00:39:05.559 was him, was his well being and his ability to be safe and cared 466 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:10.400 for. Did James crumbly elaborate at all on the fight they had the night 467 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:22.239 before? No? How long did they tell us how being ended? Jennifer 468 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:31.679 asked if they were done, which felt abrupt, and during that time the 469 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:36.519 student had also expressed him Christy, he wanted to go back to class. 470 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:43.360 I asked, mister e Jack if there was any like from a discipline standpoint, 471 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.400 is there anything you need to do? Is there any reason he can't 472 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:52.239 go to class? And I was told no, So I wrote in the 473 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:58.079 past to return to his end of this story, okay, and Jennifer asked, 474 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.400 are we done here? Did James protest it all. No, so 475 00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:06.920 tell us what happened, as you wrote the student of past. I told 476 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:15.199 the student that I cared about him and wanted him to know that. I 477 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:20.400 just wanted didn't know that. Did the other James or Jennifer say that to 478 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:24.519 him? No, I'm sure, Hoppens. Do you have any knowledge of 479 00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:32.159 firearms? Very limited? Would you know what this firearm depicts? What kind 480 00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:37.280 of firearm? I can't done? Is that the extent of your knowledge? 481 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.960 What about this? This bullet here? A bullet, just a bullet And 482 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.960 neither James nor Jennifer said anything about the firearm or than the bullet. No. 483 00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:55.880 Now you indicated that you passed on a three page list of resources for 484 00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.960 mental health providers. I did. I'm gonna show you a screenshot of one 485 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:07.000 thirty seven here and James's hands appear to be that list of resources. Objection. 486 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:08.920 I would say that false for speculation. I don't think mister Hopkinson knows 487 00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:12.880 what's in Mister Keimley sands, do you know what? I know that? 488 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.719 It's multiple ages of paper and I handed in the stable to the page piece 489 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:19.719 of paper. Okay, did you see the ing Jennifer Permley stands. I 490 00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.320 do not well a phone and something in a right hand, but I'm not 491 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:46.119 sure. Maybe I see it phone. How yours is a high school counselor? 492 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:51.800 How many times have you had to call a parent in and tell the 493 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:57.199 either mom or dad or guardian that you identified suicidal ideation in your child? 494 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:07.400 Fifteen to twenty over a dozen any of those meetings did a parent fail to 495 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:16.039 take her child home? I can't think of any now. Now you indicate 496 00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:23.760 that this was a confirming responses from James and Jennifer Crumbley. In those other 497 00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:31.840 meetings where parents sharing information, oftentimes, yes, Oftentimes parents would come in 498 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:37.840 and want to pain in a more complete picture of their student, of their 499 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:47.079 situation. Oftentimes all the time, I feel parents know their kids better than 500 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:54.960 I do. I have. If all I ever did was meet with students, 501 00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.719 I might have two hours a year with each student. Do you rely 502 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:07.079 upon a parent for that information? Absolutely? I've gone further. Think it 503 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:12.559 is plus yes, sir Enna, thank you. Good morning, mister Hopkins, 504 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:22.480 good morning. I'm going to go back to your first interactions with mister 505 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.440 Crumbley's son. I'm not going to use his name, so if for some 506 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.719 reason the way that I'm referring to his son confuses you. Just let me 507 00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.519 know or we're using too many he's, he's. Does that make sense? 508 00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:37.079 Okay, I'll do that, thank you. So your first interactions with mister 509 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:44.599 Crumbley's son were in the fall of twenty twenty, well, fall of twenty 510 00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:46.039 twenty. No, it would have been the spring of twenty twenty one. 511 00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:50.960 Okay, So it would have been before the twenty twenty one school year. 512 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:54.599 Yes, and that was for planning his class schedule. Is that correct? 513 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.280 That would have been the main reason that we would have met with avery freshman. 514 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.920 And then I had that email that was displayed earlier from his English teacher, 515 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:10.360 the May of twenty twenty one email. Yes, And after that May 516 00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:15.960 of twenty twenty one email, you didn't specifically recall having a meeting with mister 517 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:21.199 Coumpley's son. I don't have memory of that meeting mail you. In fact, 518 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.280 he went back and reviewed your records and determined that they're appears so have 519 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:29.639 been a phone call that you called him. You called him down to your 520 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:34.480 office. I called into his class and called him down to mail. Okay, 521 00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:37.880 but you don't remember ever meeting with him. I don't remember the meeting. 522 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:45.000 You did not contact mister Cumpley or his wife after that May of twenty 523 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:55.000 twenty one email. That is correct. So other than discussing his mister Cumpley's 524 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.960 son's class schedule with him and then maybe meeting with him in May of twenty 525 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:05.079 twenty one about that email, you don't recall any additional interactions with mister Cumpley's 526 00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:10.960 son before November tenth of twenty twenty one, that is correct. In September 527 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.199 of twenty twenty one, you received another email from a teacher which was displayed. 528 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:21.320 I believe it was Exhibit one ninety eight, sorry one ninety nine, 529 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:28.639 which would be the an email from a teacher talking about a poem. Am 530 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.719 I understanding that correctly. Yes, that he had a school a class assignment 531 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.440 of writing an autobiography poem, and he had said to that teacher he'd made 532 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.920 some concerning statements in that poem. Yeah, So if I can give a 533 00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:45.039 little more context to this, this was actually a Spanish class, so the 534 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:52.039 poem wouldn't have even been in English, Okay, so he used words in 535 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:55.280 Spanish. That is my understanding. After talking to the teacher and the Spanish 536 00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:00.840 teacher had concerns about the Spanish words that he used. That is my understanding 537 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:05.360 based on an email. I also followed up with the teacher and gained further 538 00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:08.800 context about it, right, And as a result of gaining further contexts, 539 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:15.239 you were not concerned because the teacher lowered the level of concern for me. 540 00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:20.119 Yes, So even though your response that you were going to catch up with 541 00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.679 mister Crumbley's son, even though that's in the email, you didn't actually meet 542 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.880 with him because you had the conversation with the teacher. That is correct. 543 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.079 Again, you didn't notify James Crumley or his wife about the teacher's concern in 544 00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.719 September twenty twenty one. No, I did that, and you didn't forward 545 00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:44.199 them the email, and that was because in your mind, based on the 546 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:46.639 information that you had, there was nothing to be concerned about. Well, 547 00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:51.480 I just gained further context from the teacher and made the decision based off of 548 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:57.440 that information and had no concerns. I think that you're putting those words in 549 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:00.159 to make it a little more extreme, But what I would say is I 550 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:04.679 gained context and made a decision based off of that, And if you had 551 00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.719 been concerned. If you had had sufficient concern, you would have reached out 552 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.800 to mister Crumpley or his wife. If it had raised the level of concern 553 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:17.239 where I felt I needed to, I would have guessed so that on November 554 00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:22.599 tenth of twenty twenty one, you received another email from a different teacher from 555 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.559 the same teacher. Oh, thank you for correcting. It was the same 556 00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:32.000 teacher. She asked you to check in with mister Cumpley's son on November tenth. 557 00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:36.480 She said he might need to speak with you, and she said that 558 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:38.519 she believed he was having a hard time. She said, he's having a 559 00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:42.599 rough time right now. He might need to speak with you the next day. 560 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:46.440 You responded and indicated that you would check in with him later that evening, 561 00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:51.760 after the school day was over. I responded, So you obviously couldn't 562 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.159 have met with him that day because the school day was over. Correct. 563 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.000 She sent the email at the end of the school day, and I responded, 564 00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:02.039 a proxident two hours after the end of the school day. So you 565 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.199 couldn't have met with him that day because the school day was over. Is 566 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.400 that fair? He would not have been there, so you would have met 567 00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:10.239 with him the next day, Yes, And do you believe that you did 568 00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:15.360 meet with him on November eleventh? Yes, you spoke with him in the 569 00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:21.000 hallway. Yes, I caught him in between classes. You simply told him 570 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.760 that you were available if he needed to talk. Yes. There was no 571 00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:28.280 further discussion with him at that time. No, because the way that email 572 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:30.519 was written was that you might need to speak with you. So I just 573 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:35.039 wanted to let him know that there was an opening if he wanted to speak 574 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:38.639 with him. And having a rough time, like the teacher indicated in her 575 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:42.920 email on November tenth, having a rough time, is it necessarily something that 576 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.119 raises red flags? Is that fair? I didn't have any other contexts as 577 00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:50.559 to what was going on, and I just wanted to offer a chance for 578 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:53.480 the student to speak if he needed to do so. And his response, 579 00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:58.679 if you recall, something along the lines of okay, thanks, okay, 580 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:00.760 And I'm not asking to quot him because I don't know if you remember, 581 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.199 but it was not an uncommon response. Does that make sense? Yeah, 582 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:12.920 it was a normal response given the situation. You did not email James Crumbley 583 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.800 or his wife about that November tenth email, correct, I did not email 584 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:22.320 them, Now, or the November eleventh brief meeting with their son. Correct, 585 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.360 you did not forward that email to mister Crumpley or his wife. I 586 00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:30.840 did not. So then the next interaction that you had with mister Crumpley's son 587 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:34.760 was on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, and that was a Monday, 588 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.400 if you recall, yes, that would have been a Monday. You 589 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:43.480 were forwarded another email that was sent to Nicholas K. Jack and Pamela Fine. 590 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:46.039 Is that correct? Yes? I was. And this third email, 591 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:50.920 this is the third email you've received from a teacher since the school year began. 592 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:55.039 If you recall, yeah, said what is that September of twenty one, 593 00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:59.159 November tenth of twenty twenty one, and November twenty ninth of twenty twenty 594 00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:02.679 one. The email advised that mister Cumpley's son was looking at bullets on his 595 00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:06.960 phone at the end of class. Could I see the email? Yes, 596 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:14.079 He's good. Two to one. This is just the forward, so it 597 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:21.000 doesn't have the actual You were advised that that was the concern was that mister 598 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:24.119 Cumbley's son was looking at bullets on his phone. I believe that to be 599 00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:27.880 true. But this email you have on the screen. Isn't the one that 600 00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.679 says that. Correct, The email doesn't say it, but you you were 601 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:34.280 aware that that's why the teacher was concerned, and that's why the teacher was 602 00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:38.800 I don't know if it's an email. That email was displayed earlier. I 603 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:44.519 think it was sent to mister E. Jack in this Fine that was the 604 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:52.400 one. Oh there there we go, thank you. Yes, so this 605 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:58.719 is the email I was forward forward ad and it just was at the end 606 00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:01.239 of the hour. The teacher didn't a chance to really find out what was 607 00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:09.599 going on, but it just glanced at it and had seen that. And 608 00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:12.840 I'll leave that up in case you need to look at it. Thank you. 609 00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.960 So you were aware that on November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, 610 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.440 at the time you received this forwarded email, that mister Cumpley's son was looking 611 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.199 at bullets on his phone in class. Yes, after reading this email, 612 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:28.559 I was aware at some point, Well, let me go in order. 613 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:34.000 Shortly after this email, you then met with mister Cumpley's son in Pamela Fine. 614 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.079 Yes, and you met in your office or miss Fine's office. It 615 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:44.480 was in Miss Fine's office and you were there just as support, but miss 616 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:46.400 Vine did most of the talking. Was that fair? Yes? I would 617 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:52.559 say that was fair. And miss Vine talked to mister Cumpley's son about looking 618 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:57.519 at bullets on his phone. She did. She actually asked him to describe 619 00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:01.880 why would a teacher be contacting right now? And the student was forthcoming and 620 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.440 what had happened in class? He was forthcoming, He was honest to your 621 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.960 knowledge, right our knowledge. He shared what we had in the email. 622 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:14.199 He told you what class he was in looking at bullets. He said he 623 00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:15.760 was looking at bullets, and he even explained why he was looking at bullets 624 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:20.559 if he recalled. He said that he and mom had been at the shooting 625 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:24.800 range over the weekend and he was researching what they had done. And if 626 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:34.440 you recall, Missfine acknowledge that what mister Compley's son was doing may not have 627 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:38.920 been appropriate, but there really didn't seem a lot of concern. Would you 628 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:45.679 agree with that? Well, the concern was that it wasn't appropriate, and 629 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:50.920 that the concern was then placed by expressed by placing a phone call home. 630 00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:55.800 So the concern was the appropriateness of the behavior in class. Yes, And 631 00:52:55.880 --> 00:53:04.079 at that point a voicemail was left for Jennifer Compley. Yes, you said 632 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:07.039 that. If you recall, mister Crumpley's son was understanding during the meeting. 633 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:12.360 He didn't fight with you about it. He listened and eventually he went back 634 00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:16.440 to Quins. Yes, I would agree with that. Later in the day 635 00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:23.000 he received an email from the same teacher who expressed that some of mister Crumbley's 636 00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.159 son's prior work may have been a little violent. No, that was the 637 00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:37.519 same email. It's in the same email it is, or was it in 638 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:40.800 an email sent later in the day. Now it's in the same email from 639 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:49.199 that pointing the one from the one that was originally sent to mister e Jack 640 00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:52.039 and miss Fine. Yes, that was later forwarded to you. Yes, 641 00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.960 you didn't see any of those assignments prior to meeting with mister Crumbley's son. 642 00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:07.760 That is correct. If you have seen those assignments, it probably wouldn't have 643 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.360 changed your approach to the meeting. Correct, because the approach was really more 644 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:14.719 about the approach intos of the behaviors. I mean, it's a hypothetical of 645 00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:17.719 what we would have done. We acted on the information we had, and 646 00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:22.280 the information that you had was that he was looking at bullets in class, 647 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:37.440 yes, and looking at bullets is not necessarily something that is in itself concerning 648 00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:43.400 to you, correct. I think you're kind of trying to put it in 649 00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:46.400 like a pigeonhole. It was trying. We were trying to gain context of 650 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:52.719 what was going on in the situation, because a student looking at something on 651 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:57.760 their phone at the end of the hour is different than a student brazenly doing 652 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:01.199 it throughout the entirety of the class. But our conversation was is this school 653 00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:08.719 appropriate or not? And in fact it's if you recall your position was at 654 00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:14.079 the time, it wasn't necessarily concerning because he was honest about it. It 655 00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:17.360 seemed kind of a commonplace thing given the Oxford community in the Golden the gun 656 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:21.400 culture in the Oxford community, and things of that nature that you took into 657 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.000 a factor. We took a lot of things into a factor, including the 658 00:55:24.039 --> 00:55:30.079 fact that we come first of how it was not school appropriate yet and that's 659 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:37.760 why a phone call was placed home. As I just indicated, the Oxford 660 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:43.519 area was and may still be a hunting community. If you know, okay, 661 00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:47.519 I'm asking people hunt who live at Oxford in twenty twenty one, you 662 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:51.360 would classify it as a hunting community. I would say that there are people 663 00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:54.719 who are hunting as activities with guns were a common hobby in twenty twenty one, 664 00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:59.760 if you know, I mean there were people who had guns as a 665 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.960 hot Yes, it was common for students to be interested in guns. I'm 666 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.960 sure there are students who are interested in guns and to go to the shooting 667 00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:09.199 range. Yes, students would go to the shooting range. So so I'm 668 00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:13.639 just gonna object to make sure that your witness is speaking with personal knowledge of 669 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:15.960 the peers councils asking because think it's general speculation. Well, if you know, 670 00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:22.480 if you know, you're not from believable the gun your gun to yourself. 671 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:30.039 It sounds like so just stick you know, Okay, students going to 672 00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:32.320 the shooting range isn't viewed as unusual or concerning in and of itself. Is 673 00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:37.159 that correct? I think that you're taking that You've got to have context with 674 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.800 all of these, right, And I'm just asking in and of itself, 675 00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:44.800 a student going to the gun range, to the shooting range is not concerning 676 00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:52.960 in and of itself. It depends on the context, because the student weightlifting 677 00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:57.239 is not concerning it and itself unless they're doing it inappropriately, right, so 678 00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:01.800 you're taking something that's abroad state they can have a wide context. And on 679 00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:07.079 November twenty ninth of twenty twenty one, mister Pumpley's son told you and miss 680 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:08.239 Fine that he had gone to the shooting range with his mom on the weekend 681 00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:13.239 before correct sad in itself is not concerning to He did it in no way 682 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:29.599 it was appropriate, you would agree? And I and can you refresh my 683 00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:32.280 memory? How long were you in the Octionford School district as of twenty twenty 684 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:40.000 one, seven years? And in that seven years you learned that many households 685 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.960 had firearms in the household? That would you agree with that? If you 686 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:50.079 know what is many? There are people the times, there are people who 687 00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:52.079 owned okay, and you as a counselor of the school, where you were 688 00:57:52.119 --> 00:58:00.920 aware of that, Yes, it wasn't completely unheard of. It was also 689 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:06.320 relevant when looking at the situation. It was also relevant for you to note 690 00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.639 the fact that mister Crumbley's sun was not hiding that he was looking at the 691 00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:13.239 bullets, or didn't hide it from you when he spoke with you and Miss 692 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:16.679 Vine. Well, he didn't lie about what had happened and that was important 693 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:22.679 to you. Yes, as a result of the meeting with Miss Vine, 694 00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:25.719 with you and Miss Fine, mister Cumpley's son was not disciplined, it's my 695 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:30.480 knowledge. No, there was a phone call place to his mother, which 696 00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:35.280 we've talked about. There was a voicemail left. You did not yourself call 697 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:39.679 mister Crumbley. I did not. You did not forward him the emails that 698 00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:45.039 you received. I did not. You don't know if that voicemail was ever 699 00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:49.480 shared with mister Cumbley. Is that fair? Well, we talked about it 700 00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:52.440 in our meeting the next time, okay, on the twenty ninth. You 701 00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:54.000 don't know if mister Cumbley was ever made aware. I wouldn't have no way 702 00:58:54.039 --> 00:59:00.800 of that, right, You wouldn't know. You responded to the situation of 703 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:05.360 mister Compley's son looking at bullets on November twenty ninth on his phone with the 704 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:10.880 information that you had. I did, and from what you knew at the 705 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:17.519 time, other than the behavior being inappropriate for school, you didn't see anything 706 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:22.400 else that might have been concerning well, and I want to make clear I 707 00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:27.519 wouldn't be the one doing discipline in this situation, So and I'm asking in 708 00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:30.280 let me clarify, I'm just asking from a counselor's perspective. I'm not asking 709 00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:34.719 for discipline. You clarify that mister Eject did discipline and Missay, so could 710 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:37.840 you repeat your question? Yes, as a counselor on November twenty ninth of 711 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:45.039 twenty twenty one, you didn't see anything overly concerning about what we've just talked 712 00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:46.719 about with looking at bullets on the phone. That the focus was more that 713 00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:51.400 looking at bullets on his phone was inappropriate for school. So are you asking 714 00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:55.000 from mental health standpoint? Did I see anything concern Not? Really, I 715 00:59:55.079 --> 00:59:59.199 don't know that you're a mental health professional. I mean you're a school counselor 716 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:00.880 and you do have some train an education at that. I'm not asking for 717 01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:06.280 you to go anywhere outside of your education and experience. Just as a high 718 01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:10.000 school counselor, sitting in Miss Fine's office with the information that you had, 719 01:00:10.599 --> 01:00:15.599 you didn't see a bunch of red flags we've talked about and let me ask, 720 01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:17.519 let me give you some let me go over it a little bit. 721 01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:22.000 You've discussed that you know that there are households in Oxford that have firearms in 722 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:25.440 them, right, Yes, there are. You know that people in Oxford 723 01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:30.519 hunt, some do. Yes. You know that students are interested in guns. 724 01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:36.000 You know that students flick at bullets. We had one student who did 725 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:40.320 that in that situation yes day. You know that that student, mister Cumpley's 726 01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:44.480 son, was honest about looking at the bullets when he was asked about it 727 01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:46.400 to the extent of our analogy, Yes he was. He told you that 728 01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:50.559 he'd gone to the shooting range with his mom, yes, the weekend before. 729 01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:55.519 Yes, that those things were not concerning to you. Taking those things 730 01:00:55.519 --> 01:01:01.159 in a vacuum is why we called home and called home and she said we 731 01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:06.760 had this meeting. We told him it's not appropriate. He understands. No 732 01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:08.880 need to call back unless you have questions. Right. I don't remember the 733 01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:14.320 exact voicemail that was left. The voicemail was not we need you to come 734 01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:17.159 to school right now, so my memory was not. But again I don't 735 01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:22.800 remember the exact voicemail that was left. On November thirtieth of twenty twenty one, 736 01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:32.960 you received another email. It's this one Exhibit two oh two, which 737 01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:42.519 was from another teacher who was talking about mister Cumpley's son looking at a video 738 01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:49.719 of a guide gunning people down. Correct. Yes, so this teacher was 739 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:53.159 a co teacher and that same first hour class from the day before. Yes, 740 01:01:53.280 --> 01:02:00.800 okay, you review that email on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one. 741 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:05.320 I did you made the decision to you? Didn't? I think you said 742 01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:07.440 you didn't see it for about twenty or thirty minutes. I didn't. I 743 01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.239 was on the phone, and I actually responded to it while I was on 744 01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:15.159 the phone, and then upon ending that conversation, was going to go meet 745 01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:20.199 with the student. And this is the fourth email that you've received about mister 746 01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:22.239 Crumbley's sun since the beginning of the twenty twenty one school year. Yes, 747 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:32.360 the third email in two days? Uh? Is it? You would have 748 01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:37.800 received the I think it's the second two days, the November twenty ninth email 749 01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:39.760 about the bullets, and then you do you recall receiving a follow up email 750 01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:45.440 later that day? It was a confirmation of that. Okay. Yeah, 751 01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:49.639 so this is the second one with additional actors. Okay, the second one 752 01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:55.440 on a different a different issue is that first Okay, the teacher described the 753 01:02:55.559 --> 01:03:01.199 video as a movie scene but not a real event. Yeah, she said, 754 01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:05.039 it looks like it's a movie scene and not security footage. Slash the 755 01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:07.079 real. With that, she expressed some concern based on quote some of his 756 01:03:07.159 --> 01:03:12.559 other behaviors. Yeah, but definitely still concerning when taking too account some of 757 01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.840 his other behaviors. Yes, you did not forward this email to mister Crumbley 758 01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:23.000 after you received it? Well, no, but over an hour later I 759 01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:30.119 called him into the school. Right, and you decided after receiving this email 760 01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:37.440 that you were going to meet with mister Crumpley's son. Yes, Approximately an 761 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:42.239 hour after receiving this email, mister Ejack advised you of another report made by 762 01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:45.239 a teacher about mister Cumpley's son. Yes, as I was about to go 763 01:03:45.559 --> 01:03:52.599 and call down his son, mister Ejack actually came into my office with information 764 01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:57.559 about the math assignment and that there were some concerning comments and markings on the 765 01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.199 math assignment. I didn't have any context to alt the math assignment. I 766 01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:03.960 just knew there was something something about At that point, you hadn't seen it. 767 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:05.920 You were just going off of what you were being told. Is that 768 01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:12.360 fair? That is fair? Okay? So you went to mister Crumpley's son's 769 01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:15.199 classroom. I did you called him out of class. I walked to his 770 01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:19.360 classroom. Yeah. When I called out, I meant like at his classroom. 771 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:23.840 He went and got him. Yes, Okay. While you were there, 772 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.519 you also obtained a copy of the worksheet that we've seen I did, 773 01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:30.400 and that would have been what I called the modified worksheet. That would be 774 01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:33.079 the one that had the thing scratched out and the words added that you identified 775 01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:38.159 and things like that. Yes, you and mister Crumpley's son went back to 776 01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:41.599 your office where Nicholas Ejack was waiting in your office. If you were called 777 01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:45.840 yes, that is correct. It was at that point or shortly thereafter that 778 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:49.960 you called mister Crumbley's wife approximately twenty minutes into our meeting. Yes, so 779 01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:55.360 you met with with mister Crumbley's son for about twenty minutes. It was during 780 01:04:55.400 --> 01:05:00.760 that meeting that mister Crumbley's son told you about his family we're passing away. 781 01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:05.239 He did, about his dog passing away, Yes, about his friend moving 782 01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:09.760 away, yes, talked about COVID being hard on him. Yes, he 783 01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:13.119 had a hard time with virtual school, if you remember he did say that. 784 01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:18.360 Yes, And you asked about the drawings and the marketings and the things 785 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:21.079 on the assignment that you had in front of you. Yes, I asked 786 01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:26.280 him to clarify what was going on in the assignment, but I also talked 787 01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:30.719 about the email I had received and I had also talked about in context of 788 01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:35.039 the conversation we had yesterday. Okay, so some of the meeting was about 789 01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:40.519 inappropriate behavior. Is that fair? It started off with a conversation about that 790 01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:45.280 because I didn't know what was on the phone, so I asked him what 791 01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:47.800 he was watching, okay, And then we talked about, Look, we 792 01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:55.280 just had a conversation yesterday about appropriate behavior in class. This feels like the 793 01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:59.280 same thing that we're dealing with here. And after we had talked about that 794 01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:02.320 for a few minutes, I brought the math sheet out and asked him to 795 01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:06.039 start explaining to me what was on there. And when the creshpaner was asking 796 01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:11.880 you questions, you said, initially when you got that email around eight, 797 01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:15.159 well when eight thirty, when you saw the email from the teacher, Initially 798 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.400 you were frustrated, If I could use the word frustrated, I was frustrated, 799 01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:23.119 and it was kind of like we just talked about this yesterday. Does 800 01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:28.079 that kind of explain what you were feeling at the time. Yes, I 801 01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:30.519 would say that it was we just had a conversation about this. Why am 802 01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:36.320 I hearing about something similar again? So you talked a little bit about that, 803 01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:40.559 and then you talked about the homework or I'm sorry, the math assignment 804 01:06:40.599 --> 01:06:43.800 or the math paper that we saw, and you asked for some more context 805 01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:46.320 about what was on the paper. Well, initially I asked him to just 806 01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:49.280 describe what was on the paper, and he started talking about how it was 807 01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:55.039 a video game that he liked designing them, like drawing them. And then 808 01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:58.920 I asked for him to explain the words on it, because I didn't feel 809 01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:02.800 those were as easily explained by simply stating, well, it's a video game. 810 01:07:03.519 --> 01:07:06.199 And in fact, you said that you didn't want to give contexts to 811 01:07:06.280 --> 01:07:10.519 his words. You didn't want to assume what he meant. You wanted to 812 01:07:10.519 --> 01:07:15.960 hear from him what those words meant. Yes, and he gave context. 813 01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:23.199 He did his That's when his demeanor changed from kind of being like what do 814 01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:26.239 I have to say to get out of here and just stop getting trouble too, 815 01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:33.000 I like he became sad and you you expressed you use the word appropriate 816 01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:38.079 to describe his level of sadness based on what he was telling him. The 817 01:07:38.079 --> 01:07:43.199 way he was acting matched what he was saying. It's to me, it's 818 01:07:43.239 --> 01:07:46.880 sad if a family dog dies or a family pet dies. It's sad if 819 01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:54.119 a relative dies or a friend moves away. So his demeanor matched what he 820 01:07:54.199 --> 01:08:00.519 was saying. And again, in and of itself, being ad is something 821 01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:05.239 that you talked about, you saw an increase of after COVID and your students. 822 01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:11.320 Do you recall that, yes, that, and that that was not 823 01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:15.159 again in and of itself, and I'm not asking you to I'm not trying 824 01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:19.439 to trick you by asking these questions. I'm not trying to give meaning to 825 01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:24.439 something that isn't there. I'm asking you, based on the information that you 826 01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:29.520 had at the time, you felt that his sadness was an appropriate level of 827 01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:32.560 sadness, not overly concerning. We'll talk about a little bit more, but 828 01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:38.960 the sadness itself was not necessarily overly concerning, beyond wanting him to talk to 829 01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:44.560 someone. Appropriate and concerning are two different things. Okay, when I say 830 01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:48.720 appropriate, I mean it matched with what he was saying. Something can be 831 01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:56.039 an appropriate response but also be heavily concerning, right like, I don't know 832 01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:59.680 a good example off this half of my head, but what I'm saying is 833 01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:02.600 his mean or matched with what he was saying. But to me, it 834 01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:06.039 was concerned, which is why I called parent, right, exactly why you 835 01:09:06.079 --> 01:09:10.079 called parents. So if he had been sitting in front of you and talked 836 01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:13.000 about these losses and it was kind of like chasm mcdeal, it's not a 837 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:15.520 big deal, that could also be concerned. It would be a different type 838 01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:24.439 of concerns. If he said I lost the top to my pen and was 839 01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:27.920 crumbling in pieces and falling into a call of tears on your floor, that 840 01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:35.319 would be concerning, but for different reasons it would be memorable. So the 841 01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:40.399 losses that he experienced, you agree. I think we can all agree we're 842 01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:45.279 significant. I think when taken in totality. Yeah. Yeah, And he 843 01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:51.159 was showing you that he was sad. Yes. He was also expressing during 844 01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:56.079 this meeting that he had concerns about missing class. If you recall he did, 845 01:09:56.720 --> 01:10:03.439 especially as after classes changed, which is a normal thing, he expressed 846 01:10:03.479 --> 01:10:09.079 that he was worried about missing his chemistry class, which was his next class 847 01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:13.199 after the math class. So during that time, mister e Jack went and 848 01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:17.640 retrieved his belongings and went to go get homework for his chemistry class. And 849 01:10:17.680 --> 01:10:20.439 I'm gonna go over that in just a second. Two. But if you 850 01:10:20.520 --> 01:10:25.119 recall, and I don't know if you pay close attention to your students attendance, 851 01:10:25.159 --> 01:10:29.359 but if you recall, mister Crumpley's son had pretty good attendance. He 852 01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:31.640 did. He did miss school a lot, No, he did not. 853 01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:38.359 If you recall, his grades weren't great, no, but he was on 854 01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:41.680 track for graduation. He was passing. Oh, I believe he was failing 855 01:10:41.720 --> 01:10:44.760 one class at the time and it was not my launch. So he was 856 01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:46.600 close to passing all of his classes. One of them he was failing, 857 01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:50.920 but close to passing. Yes, So his attendance and his grades obviously were 858 01:10:50.960 --> 01:10:56.960 not overly concerning to you. I wouldn't say overly concerning. But a student 859 01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:01.479 who cares about class and want to you know, he had expressed an argument 860 01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:08.359 the night before and wanted to go to class, had expressed you know, 861 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:15.840 the frustration of missing school during COVID and just that entirety. So it wasn't 862 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:19.439 strange at that point that the student not want to miss class, right, 863 01:11:19.560 --> 01:11:23.840 That wasn't odd to you? At all given his history. Now, if 864 01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:27.079 he were somebody who missed school all the time and was failing all his classes, 865 01:11:27.079 --> 01:11:29.039 and he's like, I really want to be in school, I really 866 01:11:29.079 --> 01:11:30.479 want to do my homework, you might feel a little differently as after. 867 01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:34.239 I would say it was in line based at the information I had. Okay, 868 01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:43.319 And you said that after mister Crumpley's son expressed these concerns about missing class, 869 01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:47.239 that mister Ejack went to his the first hour class to get the back 870 01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:51.720 back. It would have been in his second hour class where his belongings were. 871 01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:55.800 Yes, so he went mister ejac went to his second hour class to 872 01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:59.479 get his belongings and brought his belongings back to your office. Yes, This 873 01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:04.359 would have been after we had confirmed parents for coming, probably a little after 874 01:12:04.399 --> 01:12:12.600 ten am. He, if you recall, began working on schoolwork waiting for 875 01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:17.079 his parents to get that is that is my recollection. Yes. Also, 876 01:12:17.199 --> 01:12:20.600 if you remember, while you were waiting for his parents, who also began 877 01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:25.319 watching some videos with him. Yep. So he had expressed different things he 878 01:12:25.399 --> 01:12:30.079 wanted to do after high school, and he had expressed wanting to go into 879 01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:35.600 video game design. I know that when students are waiting for parents, it 880 01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:41.920 can be high anxiety time for them. So I wanted to try and engage 881 01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:46.079 him as best as I could. So we actually watched videos from the O 882 01:12:46.279 --> 01:12:51.880 Tech the Technical Center campus where they had programs that were centered around what he 883 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:58.479 wanted to do. So we talked about what it would look like to do 884 01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:00.479 an application for them, because he was a software and he would be able 885 01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:05.159 to apply for the next school year. And so I did that one to 886 01:13:08.359 --> 01:13:14.319 kind of just bridge that time be high anxiety. And two, if you 887 01:13:14.439 --> 01:13:19.680 had any inkling that a student may potentially be displaying any signs of suicide or 888 01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:25.680 suicidal ideation, getting a gauge of future plans is crucial. So I wanted 889 01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:28.680 to get that gauge as well. And he did that, and he picked 890 01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:30.479 out some videos to watch. Is at fair? And you picked them up? 891 01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.520 Yeah. You also asked him during that time if he was a fret 892 01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:40.079 to himself or anyone else. I asked him that earlier, and that is 893 01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:43.039 part of your assessment of the situation. Is that fair? Well, it 894 01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:45.640 was a question I felt needed to be asked based on what I had and 895 01:13:45.680 --> 01:13:49.840 based on your education, your experience, and your training, you know that 896 01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:56.159 that's an important question to ask, and that situation was and he basically said, 897 01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:57.880 I know this looks bad, but I'm not going to do anything. 898 01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:02.600 Yeah. It wasn't said as flippantly, but it was he understood, like, 899 01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:06.319 I can see why this looks bad. I'm not going to do anything. 900 01:14:06.359 --> 01:14:12.560 Okay. So although you had concerns, you also had a student in 901 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:15.000 front of you reassured you that he was not going to hurt con Celeb for 902 01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:31.319 anyone else based on what he told me. Yes, mister Cumbley and his 903 01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:36.119 wife arrived at approximately ten thirty. I think that there's a there was some 904 01:14:36.199 --> 01:14:40.159 time lag between them getting to the school and and actually getting into your office 905 01:14:40.159 --> 01:14:43.319 of about ten minutes, if you recall. Okay, I don't know when 906 01:14:43.319 --> 01:14:45.840 they arrived at the school. I know when they arrived to my office. 907 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:50.079 Their son was in your office when they got there. Yes, mister Ejack 908 01:14:50.119 --> 01:14:54.600 came into the office after mister Cumbley and his wife came into your office. 909 01:14:54.920 --> 01:14:58.600 Yes, because at some point he'd left while you were sitting with mister Cumpley's 910 01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:02.439 son. He left once we can from the parents were coming. Mister Ejack 911 01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:08.079 comes back in when mister Crumbley and his wife walk in. I just want 912 01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:11.079 to lay the room out a little bit. So there's your desk, you're 913 01:15:11.079 --> 01:15:13.960 on one side. On the other side was mister Crumbley's son. Yes, 914 01:15:14.119 --> 01:15:16.520 there was a second chair in front of your desk. Yes, mister Crumpley 915 01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:19.600 sat in the second chair next to his son. Yes, and then missus 916 01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:24.520 Crumpley sat in a third chair that was available in kind of was it behind 917 01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:28.439 mister Crumbley a little bit? So they were two across from my desk, 918 01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:30.760 and then there was one that was kind of off on a corner, and 919 01:15:30.840 --> 01:15:34.720 that's where she sat. Your office was not the side of this room. 920 01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:38.960 Is that fair? Yeah? That is fair? Okay, fairly small. 921 01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:44.399 It's not small, it's it's a decent sized office. But it had space 922 01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:46.560 where there were two seats across from me, one seat kind of in a 923 01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:50.880 katy corner, a door, and then some space kind of off to what 924 01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:54.920 would have been by right as I was sitting in my office, and mister 925 01:15:55.000 --> 01:15:57.840 e Jack would have been kind of off to your right. Is that fair? 926 01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:00.560 Yes? Okay, So he wasn't sitting in one of the three or 927 01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:02.520 four chairs with your with your chair. He was kind of off to the 928 01:16:02.520 --> 01:16:10.319 side. That is correct. You testified with the when the prosecuter was asking 929 01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:15.600 you questions that while you were talking with missus Crumbley, that you were called, 930 01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:20.000 mister Crumpley was interacting with his son. I do. You said that 931 01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:25.399 mister Crumpley looked at the math assignment, the modified math assignment, because that's 932 01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:28.039 the one that you had, That he looked at the modified math assignment with 933 01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:31.159 his son. That is correct, they looked at it together, and that 934 01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:40.479 he he showed concern for his son. Yeah, it felt like he was 935 01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:45.359 interacting with his son and that he mentioned some things that were available for his 936 01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:49.000 son. And we'll talk about that in just a minute. You felt that 937 01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:54.279 mister Crumpley's interactions with his son, that he was showing the approfecatet level of 938 01:16:54.319 --> 01:16:59.800 care and caring for him at that point in your office. Yeah, I'm 939 01:16:59.840 --> 01:17:08.640 a on a surface level. Yes, Yes, you confirmed that mister Crumpley's 940 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:13.199 son had gone to the shooting range the weekend before I did. You confirmed 941 01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:17.039 that he'd had those losses, He lost a family member, his family dog, 942 01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:19.439 and a friend had moved away. That he experienced all those things in 943 01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:24.119 the year of twenty twenty one. I also asked, and he had mentioned 944 01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:27.199 the argument the ninety four as well, and they told you about the argument. 945 01:17:27.640 --> 01:17:31.840 They confirmed that the disagreement. It's not uncommon for fifty year olds to 946 01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:36.960 argue with their parents as after and a surface level statement, yes, that 947 01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:45.520 can happen. Missus Crumpley also confirmed that her son had struggled with virtual school 948 01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:50.439 during COVID. She did, and that confirms what mister Crumpley's son had also 949 01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:58.000 told you about not liking virtual school. Yes, you told mister Crumbley and 950 01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:00.119 his wife that, well, let me back up a little bit. You 951 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:05.319 told the prosecutor that your hope was that mister Crumbley and his wife would take 952 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:11.119 their son out of school, either get him to see someone to talk to, 953 01:18:11.720 --> 01:18:15.319 or to go have a really fun day. My words to them were, 954 01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:19.039 I'd like him to get help as soon as possible today, as possible. 955 01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:27.079 And so you expressed to them that you wanted him to get help as 956 01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:30.760 soon as possible today, as possible. Yes, and Missus Crumbley said, 957 01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:31.920 we can't do today, we have to go back to work. Yes, 958 01:18:36.279 --> 01:18:40.680 they assured you, though, or at least you felt assured that they were 959 01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:45.960 going to get him help. They were, They were not against it, 960 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:47.520 and they made it seem as if they would be something that they would be 961 01:18:47.560 --> 01:18:51.600 willing to do. Okay, So you handed these three sheets of paper to 962 01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:57.319 one of them. They didn't toss it in the garbage right in front of 963 01:18:57.359 --> 01:18:59.640 me. No, right, they didn't scoff about it and say were not 964 01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:02.640 doing that. They took the basic right. So you had no reason to 965 01:19:02.640 --> 01:19:06.159 believe that they weren't going to get their help either at some point get their 966 01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:12.600 son help, either some point that day or as soon as possible based on 967 01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:15.159 the conversation. No, but that's also why I planned the follow up meeting. 968 01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:18.520 But the student the next day was to ensure that there was some movement. 969 01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:23.359 And you'd planned the follow up meeting kind of in and I don't mean 970 01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:25.680 this in a disrespectful way, but you kind of plan that in your head, 971 01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:28.800 like this is my next step. Yes, okay, you didn't express 972 01:19:28.840 --> 01:19:31.760 that during the meeting. No, in the meeting, you expressed that you 973 01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:34.960 were going to follow up in about forty eight hours. Well, because when 974 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.399 mom said that today wasn't an option, I said forty eight hours, then 975 01:19:40.520 --> 01:19:44.239 I'll be following up. Okay. So in your mind, you had some 976 01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:46.520 kind of timing that you were going to follow up to make sure that things 977 01:19:46.520 --> 01:19:51.000 were being followed through on. Obviously, we know that that that first check 978 01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:58.399 in point didn't come, but you told them within forty eight hours you wanted 979 01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:02.520 something done by the next more and based on your meeting, you didn't have 980 01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:05.880 any reason to think that mister Cumbley or his wife were not going to follow 981 01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:17.079 up. I would agree. Essentially, you wanted to ensure and I believe 982 01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:21.199 that you expressed this to mister Cumbley and his wife wanted to ensure that there's 983 01:20:21.199 --> 01:20:27.720 son situation and his sadness didn't get worse, right. I wanted to ensure 984 01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:31.439 that we had something that if left on chats could get worse. Right. 985 01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:39.079 So, sitting in the meeting, you weren't concerned necessarily that that day or 986 01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:43.039 even by the next morning, that their son was going to harm himself. 987 01:20:44.199 --> 01:20:45.920 Based on what he had told me, I did not believe him to be 988 01:20:46.039 --> 01:20:51.600 actively harming himself, no or anyone else based on what he had told me. 989 01:20:51.680 --> 01:21:06.720 No, mister Crumbley's son expressed that he wanted to stay in school. 990 01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:13.079 He did he wanted to stay in school for some of the reasons we've discussed. 991 01:21:13.119 --> 01:21:15.199 He didn't like virtual school. He wanted to make sure he could stay 992 01:21:15.239 --> 01:21:17.760 up with school. He didn't want to miss class. These are some of 993 01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:23.279 the reasons that he gave you. Yes, those were some of the reasons. 994 01:21:23.319 --> 01:21:28.319 He really just said that I struggled with virtual school. I want to 995 01:21:28.319 --> 01:21:30.560 make sure I'm staying on top of what I have to do. And that 996 01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:34.720 wasn't concerning to you that he wanted to stay in school. No, obviously 997 01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:42.399 it's not concern right in that situation. No, it's not, but it 998 01:21:43.039 --> 01:21:46.840 given the context to what I was hoping. You take the kid's desires into 999 01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:51.239 consideration, but at the end of the day, you want a team making 1000 01:21:51.239 --> 01:21:57.039 that decision. And if you recall, you had just had two virtual days 1001 01:21:57.039 --> 01:22:00.600 of school. I think the week before, yes, leading up to Thanksgiving, 1002 01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:04.800 we did have days that reverted me and we talked about this a little 1003 01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:08.399 while ago to your knowledge, if you were calling, if you don't, 1004 01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:11.000 just please tell me. He only missed one day of school that school year. 1005 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:15.279 I know he had good attendance. I don't remember the exact days, 1006 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:23.279 with Missus Crumbley expressing that she and mister Crumpley had to return to work that 1007 01:22:23.399 --> 01:22:27.119 day, and mister Cumpley's son expressing a desire to stay in school, you 1008 01:22:27.279 --> 01:22:31.000 felt that it was okay for mister Crumbley's son to remain in school. I 1009 01:22:31.079 --> 01:22:34.800 felt that I was not given full options at that point, because really what 1010 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:40.079 I was left trying to decide between was I have parents saying they have to 1011 01:22:40.079 --> 01:22:45.600 return to work. I have a student that I don't want left alone. 1012 01:22:45.520 --> 01:22:48.399 And so that's when I asked, mister e Jack, is there anything from 1013 01:22:48.399 --> 01:22:53.239 a discipline standpoint? Is there any reason he can't stay in school? Is 1014 01:22:53.279 --> 01:22:58.520 there anything you need to do? And then I made the decision. I 1015 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:01.359 made a judgment call based on what I had is I didn't want a student 1016 01:23:02.000 --> 01:23:08.399 potentially home alone. So based on the information that you had, you decided 1017 01:23:08.479 --> 01:23:12.560 that it was okay for him to remain in school. I decided that that 1018 01:23:12.720 --> 01:23:24.039 was the best decision. I thought I could make any information okay based on 1019 01:23:24.079 --> 01:23:29.319 that meeting. Mister Cumpley's son, to your knowledge, was not contemplating suicide. 1020 01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:31.640 You said that he had suicidal ideation. Was that ideations? But that's 1021 01:23:31.800 --> 01:23:36.640 different than me actively suicidal? It is the student stated that he was not 1022 01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:43.079 You was not actively suicide. You knew that he had been to the gun 1023 01:23:43.199 --> 01:23:45.960 range with his mom on the weekend prior. Yes, you knew at a 1024 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:49.520 minimum that he had access to a firearm the weekend before because he went to 1025 01:23:49.560 --> 01:23:53.439 the gun range. I knew that he had been to a gun range and 1026 01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:56.960 that he used to firearm a a gun range. Yes, you did not 1027 01:23:57.119 --> 01:24:00.279 ask him on November thirties of twenty twenty one if he had acted to a 1028 01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:04.760 firearm. I did not. You had no reason to look into whether or 1029 01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:09.000 not he had access to a firearm. Would you agree with that based on 1030 01:24:09.039 --> 01:24:18.000 the information that you had, it's easy to go in hindsight, and a 1031 01:24:18.039 --> 01:24:24.000 lot of things based on what my concerns were. I was concerned about student 1032 01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:27.680 well being. And again you said it's easy to go in hindsight. So 1033 01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:31.760 we know what happened within a couple hours of this meeting. So we all 1034 01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:35.119 in this court and know what happened. It's easy for us to look back 1035 01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:40.359 and say that different decisions could have been made. Right, I made the 1036 01:24:40.399 --> 01:24:44.000 decisions I made based on the information I had at the time. At the 1037 01:24:44.039 --> 01:24:48.279 time, you don't have the benefit of hindsight. At ten forty or ten 1038 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:51.560 fifty am on November thirty, at fIF twenty twenty one. Is that fair? 1039 01:24:51.880 --> 01:25:00.000 I had ninety minutes of information. You suggested those parents find a therapist 1040 01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:11.159 for him to talk to her evaluate him. I did. Thank you. 1041 01:25:11.239 --> 01:25:14.720 Have had experience with parents who have refused to provide mental health treat it to 1042 01:25:14.760 --> 01:25:23.800 their child? Is that? Is that a fret? You recall that off 1043 01:25:23.840 --> 01:25:28.199 the top of my head. I'm not recalling a specific instance of that if 1044 01:25:28.239 --> 01:25:32.319 it occurred. Did you remember testifying previously about that? I don't know. 1045 01:25:32.800 --> 01:25:36.119 Would reviewing your testimony on that help to refresh your recollection if we want to 1046 01:25:36.119 --> 01:25:43.840 bring it up? Sure? Yes, thank you? By about you're sure? 1047 01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:49.560 Thank you. You'd like to read the highly rections, you can just 1048 01:25:49.720 --> 01:25:53.920 read that to yourself and let us know that refreshes your recollection, all right, 1049 01:25:54.279 --> 01:26:03.359 thank you? Yeah. So I had asked, like if it's occurred, 1050 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:05.920 and I say, it's not overly common, but I'm sure it does 1051 01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:11.920 happen. But I'm giving it for instance of what we would do in that 1052 01:26:11.920 --> 01:26:15.239 type of situation if it were to happy Man, for sure. Sure, 1053 01:26:15.319 --> 01:26:19.399 thank you. So reviewing based on what you just said, reviewing the transcript 1054 01:26:19.479 --> 01:26:24.039 has helped to refresh your recollection. Well, what I'm stating in the transcript 1055 01:26:24.079 --> 01:26:27.920 is in a situation where that could happen, that what we would do is 1056 01:26:27.960 --> 01:26:31.079 involve CPS and make sure that the student is receiving ordinary care. In fact, 1057 01:26:31.159 --> 01:26:36.680 the question was put CPS Child Protective Services would be involved if that situation 1058 01:26:36.760 --> 01:26:41.800 were to occurring. In fact, the question was thank you, okay, 1059 01:26:41.960 --> 01:26:45.279 had you ever dealt with a kid at school who you felt med psychiatric care 1060 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:47.680 and yet the parents did provide it in some fashion or another. Who answer 1061 01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:51.000 was yes, that had occurred. And then I go on to explain what 1062 01:26:51.039 --> 01:26:55.000 would happen in that type of situation? Right, you said, it's not 1063 01:26:55.039 --> 01:26:58.199 overly common, it does happen. If it did happen, this is what 1064 01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:03.960 we would do. Correct, correct, And I know I've asked this a 1065 01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:09.399 couple of times, But you didn't have any reason to believe on November thirtieth 1066 01:27:09.439 --> 01:27:12.840 of twenty twenty one that James Crumbley or his wife were not going to follow 1067 01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:16.039 through and obtain a therapist for their child to talk to. I didn't have 1068 01:27:16.159 --> 01:27:20.880 enough time to know if that would happen or not, given our contexts of 1069 01:27:20.960 --> 01:27:26.079 our conversation. No, I didn't have reason to believe that at that time. 1070 01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.319 If you were called a meeting with mister Cumbley and his wife and their 1071 01:27:29.319 --> 01:27:32.640 son concluded at approximately ten to fifty in the morning, that sounds about right. 1072 01:27:32.720 --> 01:27:36.680 Yes, their son left the room first. If you were called and 1073 01:27:36.760 --> 01:27:43.720 went back to class. Yes, the shooting occurred at approximately began an approximately 1074 01:27:43.720 --> 01:27:48.359 twelve to fifty one pm that day. After you've heard that there was a 1075 01:27:48.359 --> 01:27:53.119 shooter at the school, you did not immediately suspect that it was mister Cumpley's 1076 01:27:53.119 --> 01:27:56.479 son, if you remember, I did not. In fact, you didn't 1077 01:27:56.479 --> 01:27:59.600 suspect that it was mister Cumbley's son until you looked into his attendance after the 1078 01:27:59.600 --> 01:28:06.520 shooting. Correct. This is also after mister Kumbley's son had already been arrested 1079 01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:15.920 quite a bit after this. I'm gonna talk about just a few things. 1080 01:28:15.399 --> 01:28:25.439 Just go back to your direct testimony with the prosecutor. M HM. So 1081 01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:30.399 that calling a parent in is a high level of concern, Yes, and 1082 01:28:30.439 --> 01:28:35.680 that could be a concern for appropriate behavior. It could be, Yes, 1083 01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:41.680 it could be a concern for these students' well being. It could be it 1084 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:46.239 could be a concerned that the student needs immediate care or help. Yes, 1085 01:28:46.399 --> 01:28:49.640 it could be for any number of reasons. A high level of concern is 1086 01:28:49.680 --> 01:29:00.960 dependent on the situation. Is that fair? Yes, I would agree your 1087 01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:05.159 concern with going to mister Compley's son's class on November thirtieth of twenty twenty one. 1088 01:29:05.239 --> 01:29:12.399 Is you specifically mentioned that you went because it's it doesn't raise It doesn't 1089 01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:15.720 basically raise concern or red flags if a counselor goes down to get a student 1090 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:20.520 on a class. Yes, that is true. And I had very little 1091 01:29:20.520 --> 01:29:26.439 information at that point as to what was going on, so I wanted to 1092 01:29:27.359 --> 01:29:30.159 make sure to do it. And I knew that the dean wanted me involved 1093 01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:36.000 in the conversation, so I knew that student support was at least a potential 1094 01:29:36.079 --> 01:29:44.640 plan. At that point, when you were discussing, you said that you 1095 01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:48.079 told mister Crumpley's son while you were meeting with him before his parents got there, 1096 01:29:48.119 --> 01:29:51.399 that you wanted his parents to get him help. Do you remember discussing 1097 01:29:51.479 --> 01:29:57.000 that with the prosecution. I do, okay, At that time, mister 1098 01:29:57.039 --> 01:30:01.720 Cumpley's son didn't say say goodness, I've been begging my parents for help and 1099 01:30:01.720 --> 01:30:05.640 they haven't given it to me. I'm not sure many students would. He 1100 01:30:05.720 --> 01:30:12.159 didn't say I'm glad you're gonna ask them, because I've asked them and they 1101 01:30:12.199 --> 01:30:16.319 didn't listen. He did not say that. He didn't say I really need 1102 01:30:16.319 --> 01:30:19.520 this and I'm really glad that you're doing this for me. He did. 1103 01:30:20.119 --> 01:30:26.119 He didn't say any of that no, which also would not be It's not 1104 01:30:26.359 --> 01:30:30.680 uncommon for students to not have a big response to something like that. If 1105 01:30:30.720 --> 01:30:33.840 he had said any of those things, obviously your reaction would be different. 1106 01:30:34.039 --> 01:30:36.920 When mister crumble and his wife got to the school, it would be different 1107 01:30:36.960 --> 01:30:49.319 information than I did not have. Yes, And when mister Crumbley and his 1108 01:30:49.359 --> 01:30:54.680 wife were at the school, they also didn't say anything about or Mister Crumpley 1109 01:30:54.720 --> 01:31:00.359 didn't say anything specifically about Wow, son, you you you really did need 1110 01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:04.520 some help. You've been asking me for it. Right. The discussion was 1111 01:31:04.520 --> 01:31:10.880 simply looking at the math assignment, the modified math assignment, and then mister 1112 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:14.800 Crumbley expressing to his son, you know you have people to talk to, 1113 01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:17.600 right. That was a piece of it. Over the ten minutes. Us 1114 01:31:18.520 --> 01:31:26.520 that that they've talked mister Crumley and his son has he he did say that 1115 01:31:26.640 --> 01:31:38.359 did talk When discussing the impact of mister Crumbley's son's friend leaving, You don't 1116 01:31:38.399 --> 01:31:44.560 know that mister Crumpley's son had ever expressed how significant that impact was on him. 1117 01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:48.000 Is that fair? Until sitting in your office, I had very little 1118 01:31:48.039 --> 01:31:51.800 context, even when he was in my office over what that was. All 1119 01:31:51.840 --> 01:31:55.439 I knew was that a friend had left, recently, had moved, and 1120 01:31:55.479 --> 01:32:04.199 that was hard. You indicated on your direct testimony with with mister Keith that 1121 01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:11.560 mister Crumbley mentioned you have people you can talk to, we talk, and 1122 01:32:11.600 --> 01:32:15.000 then mentioned something. Your testimony was that that his son mentioned something about a 1123 01:32:15.039 --> 01:32:17.399 journal or I'm sorry that mister Crumbley mentioned something about a journal. Mister Crumbley's 1124 01:32:17.399 --> 01:32:21.760 statement to my recollection was you have your counselor you have your journal. We 1125 01:32:21.920 --> 01:32:27.439 talk. Mister Cumbley didn't say your journal, you know, the one that's 1126 01:32:27.439 --> 01:32:30.840 in your backpack. He didn't say the one that you always keep with you. 1127 01:32:30.880 --> 01:32:34.880 No, he didn't say a color. No, he didn't describe it 1128 01:32:34.920 --> 01:32:40.239 at all. No. So to your knowledge, based on that conversation, 1129 01:32:40.800 --> 01:32:45.319 you can't say that mister Crumbley's son knew what his son's journal would look like 1130 01:32:45.319 --> 01:32:48.399 if he had a journal. Based on that conversation, I know, I 1131 01:32:48.439 --> 01:33:01.880 had no knowledge beyond that there was an existence of some sort of one moment, 1132 01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:25.520 right, sure, mister Hopkins, You've made decisions on November thirtieth of 1133 01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:28.720 twenty twenty one based on your education, your training, and your experience. 1134 01:33:28.760 --> 01:33:32.359 Correct. That was a piece of it. Also, based on the information 1135 01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:34.479 that you had in front of you. That was a majority of it, 1136 01:33:35.199 --> 01:33:40.680 which included four emails from teachers and approximately two months regarding mister Crumbley's son. 1137 01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:45.159 That was a part of it. Yes, concerns that those teachers had raised. 1138 01:33:45.239 --> 01:33:48.680 Yes, that was a part of it, much of which you did 1139 01:33:48.680 --> 01:33:53.119 not share with mister Crumpley prior to that November thirtieth meeting. Is that fair? 1140 01:33:53.479 --> 01:33:58.319 Correct? It was shared during the meeting. Based on all of these 1141 01:33:58.319 --> 01:34:00.359 things. You did not believe that mister Crumbley's son was an immediate danger to 1142 01:34:00.439 --> 01:34:03.920 himself. I do not believe that. No, nor did you believe that 1143 01:34:03.960 --> 01:34:08.039 he was a danger at anyone else based on the information I ed, though 1144 01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:11.720 I know further questions, agree to that, Thank you, mister Hopkins. 1145 01:34:11.720 --> 01:34:15.720 It appears that information and contacts would be important to you in these kinds of 1146 01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:19.640 meetings. Yeah, okay, Now, did James Krumbly tell you that number 1147 01:34:19.680 --> 01:34:24.199 thirty it wasn't the first time that his son asked for help? No? 1148 01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:27.880 Did James Krembley tell you that his son asked for help in the April of 1149 01:34:27.880 --> 01:34:32.880 twenty twenty one. No did James Trumbley tell you that, despite that never 1150 01:34:32.920 --> 01:34:36.720 once was an appointment with a medical health divider set up. No did James 1151 01:34:36.760 --> 01:34:41.399 Trembley ever tell you that is really is June of twenty twenty one, his 1152 01:34:41.399 --> 01:34:45.880 son had obtained his own firearm. No did gam Trembley tell you that his 1153 01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:50.359 son had been begging for a nine millimeter fireron. No did Jeames Tremley tell 1154 01:34:50.359 --> 01:34:54.439 you that his son actually sent him a screenshot of a nine millimeter for sale 1155 01:34:54.479 --> 01:34:59.680 a few weeks before the meeting. No did James Trembley tell you that his 1156 01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:04.840 son actually obtained a nine millimeter just four days before this meeting. No did 1157 01:35:04.880 --> 01:35:09.960 James Tremley tell you that the nine millimeters obtained look identical to the nine millimeters 1158 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:15.760 that he drew right here on this picture. No did James Krimley tell you 1159 01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:19.359 that he worked for door dash, he hadn't begun work that day, he 1160 01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:24.960 could take taking this on home. No, did he tell you that when 1161 01:35:25.000 --> 01:35:29.159 his son was talking about his friend leaving was actually his only friend. No, 1162 01:35:31.079 --> 01:35:35.800 So you took what you learned from the defendant son. You described those 1163 01:35:35.840 --> 01:35:41.279 losses he felt as significant. I did, And that's without knowing all that 1164 01:35:41.359 --> 01:35:46.960 information. Yes, you mentioned that you would hope the decision about a student 1165 01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:53.439 would be made by a team. I did. Who's on the team? 1166 01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:59.319 The student, the parents and he caring it all at the school? And 1167 01:35:59.359 --> 01:36:03.920 did either James or Jennifer Crumbley share any information with you? It's hih? 1168 01:36:05.039 --> 01:36:09.600 Had they of what would you have done? Objection your hon her speculation? 1169 01:36:09.960 --> 01:36:13.720 She asked the same question on Chross. Did you ask that question? She 1170 01:36:13.720 --> 01:36:15.840 asked? What would you have done? Talking about calling CPS and such? 1171 01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:20.479 I know? Actually that was related to if they had was she asked? 1172 01:36:20.520 --> 01:36:26.359 If they had not obtained a treatment for their son, Yes, by the 1173 01:36:26.359 --> 01:36:29.600 following day or within forty eight if they had refused, Actually, if they 1174 01:36:29.640 --> 01:36:32.079 had refused to obtain mental health treatment, what would he have done? Not? 1175 01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:35.359 I'll rephrase, judge, that's fine, mister Hopkins. You satisfied earlier 1176 01:36:35.359 --> 01:36:40.760 that your plan was to call shop Protective Services in forty eight hours. Yes, 1177 01:36:40.920 --> 01:36:44.199 and that's based upon just the information that you learned from the defendant. 1178 01:36:44.319 --> 01:36:48.039 Sun it is would this metium ended differently had you know all the other information 1179 01:36:48.199 --> 01:36:51.439 that we just might be an objection. You're hor speculation. I think it 1180 01:36:51.439 --> 01:36:56.520 does come for speculation. I believe he can offer a definitive answer here. 1181 01:36:56.600 --> 01:37:00.479 Judge a definitive answer about what would have happened if they get that from contacted 1182 01:37:01.159 --> 01:37:06.000 a therapist. No, you're unders asking about a definitive answer for what mister 1183 01:37:06.039 --> 01:37:12.239 Hopkins would have done if there had been additional information in your honor? Can 1184 01:37:12.279 --> 01:37:15.920 we approach because I can we approach? Please? Okay? Can we shut 1185 01:37:15.960 --> 01:38:20.720 off the hope fast? The US are happy. You were asked on a 1186 01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:28.680 cross examination that you didn't ask the shooter and Nonumber thirtieth if he had access 1187 01:38:28.720 --> 01:38:30.399 to a gun? Do you remember that? I do? And your response 1188 01:38:30.520 --> 01:38:34.079 was what I did not? Okay? And did you have reason to ask 1189 01:38:34.159 --> 01:38:39.960 him about that at that time? I didn't feel I did. And you 1190 01:38:40.520 --> 01:38:45.960 were asked about the shooter's recitation of what happened at the shooting arrange with his 1191 01:38:46.039 --> 01:38:49.960 mother are you stating I asked that, No, you were asked that, 1192 01:38:50.920 --> 01:38:55.520 oh by cross. Okay, So you learned on November the twenty ninth, 1193 01:38:55.640 --> 01:38:58.560 number the thirtieth, that the defendant's son went to a shooting arrange with his 1194 01:38:58.640 --> 01:39:01.800 mother at that prior weekend. Did Jeans Primley tell you that the shooter actually 1195 01:39:01.840 --> 01:39:05.880 shot his new gun? No, thank you, I've nothing, brother. 1196 01:39:06.840 --> 01:39:13.079 What did you step down in your excuse? You guys do a great thing 1197 01:39:13.399 --> 01:39:15.000 set up from you. Say thank you so m