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Everyone before we start the show,
I have an important announcement about the rest

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of this season. Unfortunately, two
weeks ago, our cat Beatrice, was

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diagnosed with cancer and she's now entering
end of life palliative care. Beatrice has

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been with my partner for nineteen years, his whole adult life, and she's

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been with me for thirteen years.
She is a part of the family,

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so I have been prioritizing her and
spending her last days with her, and

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making sure she's comfortable and happy and
healthy, and we get as much time

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with her as we can before we
say goodbye. That said, this episode,

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which was initially meant to be the
finale of part one of season six,

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is more robust a story than a
single episode can tell, So it

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will be the penultimate episode of part
one of season six, and my hope

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is that the final episode will be
ready to publish June thirteenth, keeping in

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mind that I am trying to prioritize
this time with Beatrice. After that,

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we'll move forward with the pre planned
season six hiatus, which will run through

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late September, and we'll return with
the second half of season six in early

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October. Thank you for your patience
during this time and your support. Now

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on with the show. This is
a studio both and production. Julie Hey,

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Josh, Hey, how are you? I'm good? Can you hear

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me? Okay, yeah, I
can hear you? Great? Oh awesome.

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This is true crime bullshit. I'm
your host, Josh Hallmark and this

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is a serialized story of Israel keys
I first met Julie Murray at the True

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00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:09,039
Crime Podcast Festival in Dallas back in
two thousand twenty two. She spoke on

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a panel with Eric Carter Landine of
the True Consequences podcast, and Mariah Day,

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the daughter of Betsy Faria, who
is sadly best known as the woman

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murdered in the Thing About Pam.
The three of them, quite eloquently,

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all things considered, discussed the negative
impacts of being part of the true crime

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machine. How when cases become media
sensations or Internet mysteries, the families tend

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to lose empathy, privacy, autonomy, and even grace. Their loved ones

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often lose their humanity in an effort
to make them representative of humanity as a

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greater whole. Mariah watched as multiple
series across multiple platforms centered the story of

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her mother's murder on the woman who
murdered her and then told that story with

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whimsy and humor, and Julie talked
about how twenty years of speculation, frenzy,

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and propriety turn the worst thing that
happened to her family into a circus

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where no one, not even more
as family, was afforded grace, dignity,

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or privacy. It was the most
impactful panel discussion I've ever been to.

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Piety, to me, is one
of the most terrifying human traits,

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because when we think we are or
have decided we are doing the right thing,

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we can very quickly overlook our means
of doing it. We can easily

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find ourselves doing anything or everything,
all for the good of the right thing

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without ever asking at what cost.
And then if that one person, that

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one righteous, pious person, becomes
ten or twenty and they're all anonymous on

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the that piety can become a frenzy, a mob, wherein because everybody is

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involved, no one is squarely responsible
for that mob's actions or incitement. And

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that is the only thing scarier to
me than piety. Just ask Sarah good

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Yusuf Hawkins, Aaron Webster, or
Islam Nettles. It's easy to overlook what

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speculation, gossip, and misreporting can
do to the families left behind by true

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crime. And I have made my
fair share of mistakes private planes and all

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the evening following Julie's panel, I
found myself at the Hotel Lobby bar with

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her and a handful of other people
talking. That group slowly dwindled down until

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it was just Julie and me.
I figured she had no idea who I

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was, but then she asked me
a question that shocked me, A question

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I get asked all the time,
probably weakly, but hearing it from Julie

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Murray herself was as jarring as it
was intimidating. It's hard to have this

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conversation with you and not appreciate the
irony of our very first conversation. And

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I don't know if you recall it. It was at the Hotel Bar in

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Dallas, after I think the first
night of the True Crime podcast festival there,

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and you approached me and you asked
if I thought Keys could be involved

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in Mara's disappearance. Do you remember
what I said? Well? I remember

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asking that because when I found out
you were there, I was like,

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I've got to talk to Josh about
keys. But I think you told me

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it was unlikely. Yeah, I
think I said it's unlikely. But with

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keys, anything as possible. Yeah. That has been my go to answer

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to that question for almost as long
as I've been investigating Israel keys. For

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one, because it's true, unless
we can categorically place keys somewhere else when

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a crime occurred, there's almost always
a possibility. And secondly, because I

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have been very cautious about saying anything
about Morris case that could contribute to the

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circus of speculation surrounding it. Since
our first meeting back in twenty twenty two,

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Julie and I have crossed paths several
times at various events. I've gotten

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to know her and who she is
outside the scope of the worst thing to

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ever happen to her. I respect
her immensely. I've seen her give several

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other talks, one called Engaging with
Empathy, which should be required listening for

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anyone creating or consuming true crime media. She is a quiet, stoic forced

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to be reckoned with, and she's
doing everything she can to change the way

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we talk about victims. They're families, and true crime writ large while also

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still searching for her sister Mara.
So when I found that newspaper, a

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local newspaper at Keisus Cabin, dated
February tenth, two thousand and four,

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the day after Mara went missing,
and a day that Keesus timeline would have

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you believe he was in Utah,
I was immediately conflicted. There is no

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right way to reach out to or
involve families, but there are a million

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in wrong ways. And my rule
has always been, and this is something

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I learned from Laura and Brooke from
the fall line, to only reach out

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if I have significant evidence that could
support Keys's involvement in a loved one's disappearance,

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and then a the family is actively
seeking new leads or involvement, or

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b the family has a family advocate
who is supporting their search for answers.

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And in this case, I wasn't
convinced that what I found that single newspaper

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measured up to the rule. So
let's talk about the newspaper and what it

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could mean and does not mean.
The Tuesday, February tenth, two thousand

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and four issue of the Malone Telegram
newspaper can be seen mostly scattered about the

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kitchen floors at the Key's Constable cabin. The most clear section in the photos

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we obtained is from the sports section, pages B three and B four.

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It's yellowed and crinkled with time,
but it's still in mostly pristine condition other

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than a tear in an article that
appears to be about UMass Amherst and a

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large ink or paint blotch. I
spoke with someone in the archives department at

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the Malone Telegram, and that conversation
has helped rule out a few scenarios about

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how the paper got there. The
Malone Telegram does not and never has done

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reprints. They only print in bulk
with advertisers to offset the costly printing fees.

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Printing a single newspaper would be excessively
cost prohibitive for them, so no

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one could order an old copy of
the paper to be placed at that cabin

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sometime later. Additionally, the Malone
office only kept archival papers for one one

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year after printing, so the absolute
latest someone could have gone into that office

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and requested that specific newspaper would have
been February of two thousand and five,

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seven years before Keys was arrested and
the world started to find out who he

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was. Sadly, the Malone Telegram
went digital in two thousand and eight and

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only began digitizing their papers then.
Everything prior is pretty much lost in the

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ether, so we may never know
what other news was reported in that February

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tenth edition, including specifically whether it
reported on Mara's accident the night before and

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subsequent disappearance. And that's important because
Mara Murray disappeared from Haverhill, New Hampshire,

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just one hundred eighty miles from the
Constable Cabin, between seven forty three

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and seven forty six pm on February
ninth of two, two thousand and four,

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the day before that nearby paper was
printed and distributed. I also learned

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that the Malone Telegram was available at
newspaper boxes throughout Franklin County, New York,

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but it was also distributed on the
day of printing to subscribers. The

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woman I spoke with could not tell
me if Israel, Keys David, the

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Amish tenant, or anyone at five
eleven Poplar had ever been a subscriber.

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So here were our most reasonable hypotheses
for how that newspaper ended up in the

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Constable Cabin. Emphasis on were one
either Israel or David subscribed to the Malone

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Telegram. The issue here, though, is that David says he only read

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the Amish News, and they were
financially strapped and wouldn't likely be subscribing to

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any paper, let alone one that
they didn't read, and it seems unlikely

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that Keyes, who was also financially
strapped, would subscribe to a newspaper at

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a house he didn't live in two
Israel, picked up that paper while in

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the area on or in the six
days immediately following February tenth of two thousand

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and four. Three. David picked
up that paper to wrap items that they

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were taking when they returned for their
belongings at some point after moving out of

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the cabin at the end of October
two thousand and three. But there are

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a few details that cast some doubt
on this. The first is that David

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said that they left the house as
they found it, They didn't leave anything

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behind and cleaned up before they left. The second is we don't even know

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the exact date that David and his
wife returned for their belongings. As you

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may recall, it could have been
any single day between December one of two

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thousand and three and mid May of
two thousand and four. But after spending

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time looking up archival weather data on
weather dot gov, I've been able to

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very slightly narrow down when exactly they
could have been there, because the one

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thing that David and his wife could
agree on is that when they returned to

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get their stuff there was enough snow
on the ground that they had to call

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someone in to plow it. But
more on that later. With all that

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in mind, I went back and
looked at Keys's Utah trip. I wanted

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to see first what records the FBI
used to place Keys in Utah at the

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time, and second, how possible
exactly it could be for him to get

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to and from Haverhill, New Hampshire
during that trip. Studio both and is

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dot com slash tcb. Since my
initial reporting on Keys's February two thousand and

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00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,960
four trip to Utah, we've learned
a lot more about how the FBI built

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00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:18,320
their Keys timeline, specifically what records
they used and didn't have to construct it.

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00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:24,159
A timeline they'd used to both place
Keys in specific areas on specific dates

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00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,559
and to rule him out of crimes
that didn't align with those areas and those

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00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:33,320
dates. But as we all know
by now, that timeline is a bit

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flawed or at least insufficient. As
we've discussed, many of the airlines didn't

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00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,919
keep their records for more than three
to seven years, so by the time

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the FBI caught Keys, most of
his flight records were gone. So the

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FBI used old itineraries found in his
emails or in his house, and records

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from the few airlines who still had
them. As we all know, and

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00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:06,919
Keys has proven, you can print
an airline itinerary and then change it.

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00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,799
So while even with Keys this is
more likely the exception than the rule,

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using old itinerary printouts to build the
timeline is inherently flawed. The FBI also

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00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:26,639
appear to have made some pretty confusing
assumptions about Keys's travels, particularly considering how

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they've helped sell Keys as the most
meticulous and strategic serial killer of our time.

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Now, usually this is where i'd
give you an example of this using

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00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:45,240
some other trip that Keys took which
demonstrated multiple flaws in the timeline. But

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00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,320
one of the best examples for this
is actually the trip we're looking at the

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00:16:52,399 --> 00:17:00,799
February two thousand and four Utah trip. As I previously reported to the FBI

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00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:04,599
timeline, Keys flew from Seattle to
Salt Lake City, Utah, on February

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00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:10,160
sixth of two thousand and four.
From there, he rented a silver Jetta

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00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,799
from Enterprise Rental Car and racked up
five hundred twenty two miles on it.

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00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,519
On February seventh, a transaction places
him in Logan, Utah, which is

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00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:25,240
about eighty miles or an hour and
fifteen minute drive due north of Salt Lake

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00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:32,039
City and very near both the Idaho
and Wyoming state lines. On February eighth,

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00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,960
a cell phone ping places Keys near
Green River, Wyoming, which is

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00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,240
just one hundred sixty miles due east, or a two hour and forty five

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00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:47,559
minute drive from Logan. And then
on February thirteenth, Keyes returned his rental

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00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:52,759
car in Salt Lake and flew back
to Seattle. But here's the thing.

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00:17:52,720 --> 00:18:00,519
Some of the most important components of
that narrative were built on assumptions. According

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00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:04,119
to a different FBI document in the
Case Files, a document that was used

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00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:10,200
to build the FBI's timeline, the
FBI has no flight records for this trip,

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00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,200
no airline records, no flight manifests, not even a printed out itinerary.

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00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,240
All they have are the Enterprise rental
car records showing that Keys rented a

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00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:25,839
car from the Salt Lake City Airport
on February sixth and then returned it on

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00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,960
the thirteenth. It's unclear if they
even have a confirmation that it was returned

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00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,440
to Salt Lake City. Keys often
picked up a car from one location and

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00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:41,480
then returned it to another, so
actual records, actual proof, can only

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00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,839
actually place Keys in the Utah,
Wyoming, Idaho tri state area on February

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00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,519
sixth, seventh, and eighth,
and then possibly on the thirteenth, And

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00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,640
there are few things about exactly that
which pique my interest. Keys is well

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00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,440
known for using his phone or his
credit card when he wants to be seen,

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00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,359
and in this case, he,
whether intentionally or not, uses one

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00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,319
and then the other, apparently only
one time each on the seventh and then

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00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,599
the eighth, placing him in that
area. And that begs the question,

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00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:19,480
if he's leaving digital footprints on those
second and third days of this trip,

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why did he suddenly stop thereafter?
Why did he, according to the records

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00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,039
I have, turn his phone back
off and stop using his credit card.

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00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,920
The other big assumption the FBI made
is that Keys flew to Salt Lake City

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00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:41,839
directly from Seattle and then returned directly
to Seattle. But again there's nothing in

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00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:48,240
the files to verify this. In
all and extreme fairness, they may have

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00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,720
holdback material. We don't have visibility
to all of his transaction records, only

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00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,720
the ones that they deemed important,
So it is possible he used his credit

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00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,759
cards in Seattle on the day of
both his outbound and return flights, but

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00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:07,000
there's no indication of that in their
timeline, nor in the tools they used

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00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,519
to build the timeline. But we
need to remember to be open to not

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00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:18,200
knowing the things we don't know.
The FBI's most well known Keys narrative is

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00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,759
Keys flew from Alaska to Chicago,
rented a car, and drove it nine

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00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:26,880
hundred miles to Burlington, Vermont,
to use a pre arranged kil kit to

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00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,559
abduct, rape, and kill a
couple. He went to great measures to

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00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,759
cover his tracks, He went to
great measures to conceal his travels. He

219
00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:42,640
went to great measures to create distance
between his travels and his crimes. This

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00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:48,319
is how Keys has been sold to
us. As the ultimate boogeyman. And

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00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,039
it's true, and it demonstrates his
pre planning strategy, meticulousness, and impulse

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00:20:53,079 --> 00:21:00,200
control. But if that's the case
the rule, not the exception, then

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00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:06,680
why isn't that being applied to this
February two thousand four trip without travel records

224
00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:11,319
or anything placing him anywhere during more
than half of that trip. Why are

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00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,480
they just assuming that Israel Keys,
of all people, took a straightforward trip

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00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:19,319
to Salt Lake City and Green River, Utah for no apparent reason in the

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00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:29,240
world. So let's first take a
look at Keyesa's life during this time,

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00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,119
and then we'll look at the rental
car mileage. Early two thousand four was

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00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:38,920
a pretty tumultuous time in Keyesa's life. His father died a reportedly preventable death

230
00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,799
in November of two thousand two,
and he appears to have spent the last

231
00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:48,200
two weeks of November in Smyrna,
Maine with his family. Emphasis on appears

232
00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:53,240
because all we know is that when
his father died on November thirteen, keyes

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00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:59,759
immediately took leave from work, and
his dad's memorial was in Smyrna on November

234
00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:03,200
two, twenty seventh, and we
know Keys was there for the memorial at

235
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,680
minimum. Obviously we can't be certain
Keys took leave and then immediately flew to

236
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,839
the East Coast, but since he
can't be placed anywhere in that time,

237
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:18,720
we're open to him being in Maine
for some of if not all of it.

238
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,960
It's upon his return from Maine that
his and Tammy's problems began to hit

239
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,880
a fever pitch. By early two
thousand and three, rumors were swirling that

240
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,960
Keys was engaged in a torrid affair. It's around the same time that Keyes

241
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,799
began to abuse bereavement leave at work, needing time off for dead relatives that

242
00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:42,839
didn't exist. By late two thousand
and three, we have Keyes spending multiple

243
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,960
nights in nearby shady motels, and
on February twenty ninth of two thousand and

244
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,160
four, just two weeks after his
return from this Utah trip, Nia Bay

245
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,160
Public Safety were called to Keys and
Tammy's house to investigate a domestic disturbance.

246
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,000
It's the night that Keys and ended
up in the tribal police station with Giovanna

247
00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:08,319
Tyler. Here's my initial reporting from
season three, episode five. On the

248
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,319
night of February twenty ninth, Tammy
and Israel got into a heated fight,

249
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,240
which got physical after Tammy caught Key's
instant messaging with an unnamed woman. At

250
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,960
the time, Keyes had been engaging
in affairs with multiple women in Nia Bay,

251
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:27,920
and Tammy had become hypervigilant. Keys
was drunk at the time the fight

252
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:34,160
escalated. Neighbors heard and eventually called
the police. Tribal police separated the pair

253
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:40,279
and temporarily took Keys to the Macaw
Tribal Police station, where a domestic incident

254
00:23:40,319 --> 00:23:47,079
report was filed. Two months after
that, Tammy and Keys finally broke up

255
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,440
and Keys moved out. And this
is all to say that it was a

256
00:23:51,559 --> 00:24:08,680
rocky time in Keyes's life, a
time rife with aggravating factors. The most

257
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:15,799
important actual evidence for this Utah trip
is the mileage that Keys put on his

258
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:21,640
Salt Lake City rental car, five
hundred twenty two miles. From that five

259
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,160
hundred twenty two miles, we can
immediately deduct two hundred forty eight miles based

260
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,599
on the credit card transaction in Logan
and the phone ping in Green River that

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00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,880
only gives us two hundred seventy four
miles. For at the very least five

262
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,759
more days of travel. So let's
assume that Keys did in fact stay in

263
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,680
the area and then flew out of
the Salt Lake City Airport on February thirteenth.

264
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,960
If he drove directly from Green River
where his phone pinged back to the

265
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,680
Salt Lake City Airport, that would
have racked up an additional one hundred seventy

266
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,599
two miles, leaving Israel Keys with
just one hundred two miles for four to

267
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:14,759
five days of travel. So whether
he's simply fishing or doing something more nefarious

268
00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:19,160
like stalking, cashing, or god
knows what else, that only affords him

269
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:26,279
twenty miles per day to do it
in a very remote and expansive area of

270
00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:32,759
the country. And that assumes that
Keys drove directly without ever stopping or wavering,

271
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:40,559
from Salt Lake City through Logan to
Green River. And by the way,

272
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,039
driving through Logan from Salt Lake to
Green River is not even remotely the

273
00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:51,640
most direct route. And we know
there's no way he didn't stop or waiver

274
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:56,759
from that route because it took him
at least forty eight hours to make that

275
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:03,960
four hour drive. So now let's
assume that Keys did leave the area,

276
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,039
which I believe he most likely did. I'm not saying that he left the

277
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,920
area for the East Coast necessarily,
but his patterns of behavior and m O

278
00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:19,279
would make it much more reasonable to
me that he left. There are few

279
00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:25,319
possibilities of how that could have occurred. One, At some point after his

280
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,640
phone ping and Green River on the
eighth, he made his way back to

281
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:33,599
the Salt Lake City airport and flew
round trip somewhere else, then returned to

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00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,720
Salt Lake City on the thirteenth and
returned his rental car, which would have

283
00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:42,000
been parked somewhere nearby. It would
be very easy to rack up around one

284
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,680
hundred extra miles during the forty eight
hours in which we know he drove at

285
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:52,880
least two hundred forty eight miles between
Salt Lake City and Green River. In

286
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,240
fact, from both a geographical perspective
and a Key's history of driving perspective,

287
00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,200
this scenario make way more sense to
me than Keys having a rental car for

288
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,960
five days in Wyoming and barely using
it, And based on his abandoned rental

289
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,480
car and mobile, it seems likely
this is a tactic he employed at other

290
00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:18,839
times. Another example would be the
weird La trip we covered a few episodes

291
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:26,440
ago two, Keys drove the rental
car to a second airport, flew round

292
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,240
trip, then returned the car there. Within the miles Keys put on that

293
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:34,440
rental car, including his trek through
Logan and Green River, Keys could have

294
00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:40,000
driven to any of the following airports, all in cities Keys was known to

295
00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:45,440
visit or frequent Rock Springs, Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Reno and

296
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:53,400
Sacramento, and Boise. Three.
A hybrid scenario where Keys drives to a

297
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,920
second airport, travels round trip,
then still returns the rental car to Salt

298
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,559
Lake City on the third time.
If Keys flew out of the Rock Springs

299
00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:06,680
airport, where Southwest, his preferred
airline at the time, had a hub,

300
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,559
his round trip drive from SLC to
Logan to Green River to Rock Springs

301
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,799
back to SLC would be a minimum
of four hundred and fifty two miles,

302
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:23,240
again excluding any stops or side trips
which he assuredly made. It would also

303
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,960
better explain the ping and Green River
which is en route from Logan to Rock

304
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,720
Springs. A fourth scenario is that
the information the FBI has on that rental

305
00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:40,720
car came from a printed itinerary,
and that Keys could have returned it at

306
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,480
some other date. Perhaps he booked
it for the sixth through the thirteenth,

307
00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:48,279
but then returned it on the ninth. If the FBI is using a pre

308
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:52,279
printed itinerary, they'd have no way
of knowing if Keys returned to the car

309
00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:59,920
early or to a different location.
So on a trip where five years ago

310
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,119
we were certain Keyes was in the
Utah area, it now seems more likely

311
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:10,240
that he was not, at least
not on February ninth, tenth, eleventh,

312
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,839
and twelfth, the exact days on
which that newspaper was published, distributed

313
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:23,079
and available in Franklin County, New
York, where Keyes's cabin was. Once

314
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:27,359
I felt like it was actually possible
that Keys could have been in the area

315
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,960
when that newspaper showed up and when
Moro went missing, I decided to read

316
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:40,200
deep dive what I could find that
was factual about Moore's disappearance. So I

317
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:47,839
started with the premiere source material,
Julie Murray's podcast Media Pressure, and this

318
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:56,000
time around with new information about Keys. Red flags were appearing everywhere, and

319
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,799
we'll discuss at length each of these, but for now, here's a short

320
00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,640
list of details that stood out to
me. A mysterious man driving an older

321
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:10,799
make red pickup truck. Keys owned
a nineteen sixty seven Red International pickup truck.

322
00:30:11,519 --> 00:30:15,279
Mora was using newspapers and the Internet
to look for a used car to

323
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:21,920
buy. We know Keys used Craigslist
to sell items, including guns, and

324
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,599
we have a fairly credible encounter with
Keys, wherein a college student was led

325
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,079
to a remote parking lot in a
small town under the pretense of buying a

326
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:37,480
used car off of Craigslist. After
Mora's accident in Haverhill, the initial nine

327
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:42,880
to one one reports both cited a
man being on the scene the location.

328
00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:49,039
Obviously, we can place Keys on
that highway many times, driving between Constable

329
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:56,960
and both Bangor and Smyrna Main.
And Moreover, there are multiple sightings of

330
00:30:56,039 --> 00:31:03,319
Keys being sketchy in the woods within
twenty miles of the crash site. And

331
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:10,559
finally, a call to Mora's phone
from an unknown caller in the late afternoon

332
00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:15,599
hours of February ninth, several hours
before she went missing, A call that

333
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:21,319
came from the town where the Manchester
Airport is, the airport that Keys would

334
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:29,319
fly into when traveling to the East
Coast. It was all compelling enough to

335
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:36,519
continue exploring, but it still didn't
meet my criteria for family outreach. But

336
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:41,640
this felt different because I know Julie
and because Julie had specifically asked me about

337
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:48,920
Keys. So I reached out to
three respected mutual friends. Hailey Gray,

338
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:55,480
who co founded the Ethics Forward true
crime podcast training program, Laney Hobbes,

339
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,000
host of True Crime Cases with Laney
and co founder of the True Crime Podcast

340
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,119
Festival, and Charlie Worrel, host
of The Crime Lines and Crime Lines and

341
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:12,119
Consequences true crime podcasts. And they, all, to varying degrees, encouraged

342
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,119
me to reach out to Julie with
this new information, and so on the

343
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:21,680
afternoon of March twenty eighth of this
year, I called Julie. I told

344
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,440
her I had some information that could
pertain to her sister's case, but that

345
00:32:24,559 --> 00:32:31,640
was not by any means definitive.
It was very circumstantial evidence at best that

346
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:37,599
could not in any way confirm that
Keyes was involved, but merely could indicate

347
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,759
that, despite what the timeline said, he was in the area at the

348
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:49,480
time Moro went missing. We talked
for about forty minutes. We compared both

349
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:54,480
on and off the record information.
We discussed Key's familiarity of the area and

350
00:32:54,559 --> 00:33:00,119
other information you'll hear about in the
next episode, and I assure Julie that

351
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,240
I would not report on any of
this. It didn't feel conclusive enough,

352
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,279
if at all, and what was
already a pretty caustic case, riddled with

353
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:15,400
bob mentality, piety, and a
strong and strange sense of propriety. On

354
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,119
a personal level, it just wasn't
something I really wanted to be a part

355
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,680
of, and on a professional level, I didn't want to add to the

356
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:30,559
circus that both surrounds that case and
has caused a lot of undue additional pain

357
00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:36,200
to Mara's loved ones. But Julie
cut me off and said, and I

358
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:43,000
quote, no, I want you
to report on this, and so here

359
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:49,720
we are. Six hours after that
call, I received the phone call from

360
00:33:49,799 --> 00:33:57,920
David Keys's Amish tenant, and that
obviously muddled things. Julie and I chatted

361
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,519
about it a few days later,
and then decided to talk on the record

362
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:16,000
on May tenth. So we talked, I guess about a month ago now

363
00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:23,760
about the newspaper found in Keesus cabin, and I have a pretty frustrating update

364
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:30,079
for you. And it's strange that
these two things kind of happened in conjunction.

365
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,320
While we were looking into this,
one of our researchers was pulling data

366
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,800
on the history of Kees's cabin,
who he bought it from, deed exchanges,

367
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:45,000
et cetera, and she kept coming
across this gentleman who appeared to have

368
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:51,360
lived there during the time that Keys
owned it, and you know, people

369
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,920
find her searches are incredibly fallible,
so we kind of kept writing it off

370
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,559
as just like an error or maybe
Keys had stolen this guy's identity. But

371
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,960
we were able to find his information, which was not super easy because he's

372
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,440
amish, and I was able to
get in touch with him, so he

373
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:15,159
did. In fact, he and
his wife lived on Keys's constable property in

374
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:22,679
October of two thousand and three for
just that month. So without giving him

375
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:28,360
any information, I asked him a
bunch of questions to confirm it was actually

376
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:35,000
Keyses property. It most definitely was. Other than having heard that it was

377
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:38,119
owned by someone who killed people.
He didn't really know anything about Keys,

378
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:44,840
which I attribute to him being amish
and not probably super tapped into the news.

379
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,159
So then I asked him just about
newspapers, does he read them?

380
00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,880
How often does he read them which
news did he prefer? And what he

381
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,360
said to me was, he rarely
reads the news, and when he does,

382
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,719
it's usually the Amish news. And
then he went on to say that

383
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:07,679
the gentleman who lives across the street
from Keyes's cabin is Amish, and it

384
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:13,599
is or was involved in printing the
local Amish news up there, and he

385
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,239
usually would just walk across the street
to get the newspaper from him. So

386
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,960
the newspaper we found in the cabin
was not Amish news, it was the

387
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,079
local newspaper. So I asked him
if there was any possibility that they would

388
00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:29,320
have returned after they moved out in
October, and he said yes, that

389
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,559
it took them a while to come
collect their stuff. He and his wife

390
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,679
couldn't agree on when that was.
He said it was about one to two

391
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:44,480
months later, so either November December. His wife believes it was early spring.

392
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:51,480
So technically neither of these would include
February. But also, you know,

393
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,000
it's been over ten years, and
they February falls kind of dead center

394
00:36:57,079 --> 00:37:00,679
in between. The two ask them
if they could remember any detail about when

395
00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:06,320
they returned. They said that there
was enough snow covering the driveway that they

396
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,880
actually had to call someone to plow
it before they could enter to collect their

397
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:14,920
belongings. And they're going to reach
out to their friend who help them get

398
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,760
the plow to see if he can
recall the exact date or even an approximate

399
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,239
date, And they're going to look
further into their records to see if there's

400
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,679
any anything that can help them specify
when this was. So I pulled archival

401
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:34,320
weather data and between November and April
of two thousand and three, two thousand

402
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,119
and four, there's only a few
times where and I, you know,

403
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,760
we're both in New England or you
were like to me, anything over six

404
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,079
inches would require a plow, like
anything under that, I'm just going to

405
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:52,920
drive right over it. Yeah,
So the first time there's enough snow that

406
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,159
they would need a plow is December
of three. Between the seventh and tenth

407
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,119
there were nine to ten standing in
inches, fifteenth to sixteenth there were eight

408
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:07,360
to nine standing inches, and then
the eighteenth to the twenty second there were

409
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:14,000
eleven to thirteen standing inches. There's
not an abundance of snow again until January

410
00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,199
nineteenth through essentially the end of the
month, they have between eight and thirteen

411
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,559
standing inches every day and then in
February, and this is not a surprise

412
00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:28,760
considering how the weather was where more
it disappeared, which is not too far

413
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,639
from here. The entire month of
February they have between ten and seventeen inches

414
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:39,599
of snow and then going on into
what is technically spring. The only other

415
00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:45,320
times they have a depth of snow
that's considerable is March first and second,

416
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,400
and then that's it. So it
doesn't necessarily negate that the newspaper was keys,

417
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:57,480
but it muddles it for sure.
I went on to ask them what

418
00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:00,079
it was like living there. They
said that they didn't know who they were

419
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:02,880
renting it from. All they knew
is they were sending a check to some

420
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,039
woman who lived in New England,
which I'm assuming is Key's mother who lived

421
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,760
in Maine, and that many times
someone would enter their house in the middle

422
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,400
of the night and they were too
afraid to go downstairs and check. But

423
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,480
it happened at least two to three
times while they were living there. When

424
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,519
they came back to collect their stuff, some of their items had been stolen.

425
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:25,840
Someone had clearly been in the house. There were beers everywhere. After

426
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,119
they kind of explained all this.
I told them why the newspaper was important,

427
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:35,679
and he reiterated that he could not
recall a time that he ever got

428
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,920
that newspaper or read that newspaper.
I asked if it was possible that they

429
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:44,000
would have used newspaper to pack their
belongings. He said it was possible,

430
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:49,400
but again, he would have just
gone across the street. Wow. So

431
00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:59,199
it's like a very bizarre coincidence and
a very frustrating one. Yeah, I

432
00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:04,119
mean, it's still Paul it is. I wouldn't report on it if I

433
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:08,360
didn't think there was a possibility,
because you know, if either of them

434
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:16,000
are exactly accurate, then it would
negate February, and whoever bought that newspaper

435
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:21,559
had to buy it on February tenth, or you know, the days following

436
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:25,599
the tenth. Yeah. So it
leaves a pretty small window in what they're

437
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,360
creating, a five to six month
window that they could have gone back.

438
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,400
What's also interesting is he said that
they had a horse and a cow on

439
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,039
the property when they lived there,
and they were in the barn, which

440
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:42,440
means most of the stuff in the
barn got there after they moved out.

441
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,840
I'm trying to make sense of like
what that necessarily means. But at some

442
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,360
point Keys cleared out that house and
then everything accumulated there after, either he

443
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:55,320
brought or had been moved to a
second location on the property. The property

444
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:02,280
is massive, it's about ten acres, so yeah, yeah, But the

445
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,760
other concern I have is was this
the only time this happened. Keys was

446
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,320
hard up for money, so it's
possible he was renting out this property for

447
00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:15,800
extra cash. But also the property
was quite dilapidated, so I can't think

448
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,119
of many people other than the Amish
who might be willing to live there.

449
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,639
I'm going to talk to him,
hopefully soon. I left a message on

450
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:29,159
his answering machine a couple of days
ago. Are there any questions you you

451
00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:32,639
would have for him? No?
I mean, I think you've got it

452
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:40,039
covered. But it's just it's interesting
that he says he wouldn't have read that

453
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:45,679
type of newspaper. I mean,
that's telling, yeah, And you know

454
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,559
he said that without context, which
you know, to me, the more

455
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:52,920
context you provide, the more people
try to look for the answers they think

456
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:58,239
you want. Yeah, and so
I just without any context whatsoever, he

457
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,599
said, like no, he pretty
much only read Amish news, and you

458
00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:06,599
know, I believe it more just
out of human routine, which is like,

459
00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:08,480
especially if you don't have a car, are you going to take your

460
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:14,639
horse and buggy four miles into town
to get a newspaper that isn't written for

461
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:17,000
you? Or are you going to
walk across the street to get newspaper that's

462
00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:24,119
more amenable to your lifestyle? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So with all

463
00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:29,400
that said, I had a few
questions for you just about you know,

464
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:36,000
our conversation and I guess Mora's disappearance
in the media at large. You had

465
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,960
mentioned, or I've heard this from
other people that you are pretty vocal about

466
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,960
not wanting people to cover Mora's case
anymore. Can you get into that.

467
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,719
Actually, I don't know where that
came from, because I've never said that.

468
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,679
Oh really, Oh yeah, yeah, somebody else mentioned that to me,

469
00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:54,920
or somebody wrote it online, or
maybe it was in a video,

470
00:42:57,039 --> 00:43:00,559
and I chimed in and I said, I I haven't said that, because

471
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:07,199
when you have a missing loved one, you want the coverage. I just

472
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:14,559
don't want all the sensationalism and misinformation. If people are putting out true,

473
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,719
accurate information, I have no problem
with that. I'm not trying to,

474
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,199
you know, control the whole thing. I mean, I haven't solved it

475
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,159
yet. I need help. Okay, that's good to hear. Yeah,

476
00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:30,360
I had heard from a few people
that your thought was, you know,

477
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:34,559
everything that could be said at this
point has been said, so unless there's

478
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:39,320
new information to add to the conversation, no, no, yeah, And

479
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,880
that kind of goes against everything that
I do talk about. You know,

480
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:51,800
I say people in my position were
desperate for awareness and opportunities to keep our

481
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,519
loved one stories out there in the
public consciousness and get people talking, because

482
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:05,639
I'm of the mindset that we need
fresh eyes, new perspectives because to date,

483
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,400
no one solved the case, and
so who am I to try to

484
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:15,760
shut it down. That's absolutely not
true. Okay, that's good. And

485
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:21,679
with that in mind, you know, of all the cases I'm familiar with,

486
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,519
or have read about, or have
heard people discuss, I think more

487
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:34,960
as probably more than any other,
h is very diluted or convoluted with speculation

488
00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:40,880
and misinformation that has over time become
mythology. In fact, can you give

489
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,440
us a high level of your perspective
on like the actual facts of the case.

490
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:50,760
Yeah, I mean, and I
can see why that happens. It's

491
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:58,119
because we have so few answers and
we don't have a lot of documents,

492
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:04,000
we don't have evidence, and so
people want to solve a mystery, and

493
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:09,199
so they start digging in and take
bits and pieces of what's been said or

494
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:15,280
what's been posted, and you know, form this new narrative that's just based

495
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:22,360
on a premise that's not true,
and that that starts the proliferation of misinformation

496
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:30,159
and that's very harmful to the investigation
in my family and you know, getting

497
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:40,280
resolution from Aura. I I wish
that the new Hampshire State Police would share

498
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:50,000
more information. My dad did sue
the state under FOYA back in two thousand

499
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,599
and six, two thousand and seven
to try to get some of those records

500
00:45:52,639 --> 00:46:00,800
released, but he wasn't successful.
I mean, they did had released some

501
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,320
records, they were heavily redacted.
Most of it we already knew, and

502
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,480
so that just adds to the mystery
of it. So there's really two mysteries.

503
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:16,960
Where was Maura going and what happened
to her? But as an overall

504
00:46:17,519 --> 00:46:23,639
high level, just brief update,
my sister was a twenty one year old

505
00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:30,280
nursing student at the University of Massachusetts, and on February ninth, two thousand

506
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,679
and four, really early in the
morning, she submitted her nursing school homework

507
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:42,239
assignment, which was to look up
maternity terms. She presumably got some sleep,

508
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:46,840
and then midday on February ninth,
the day that she went missing,

509
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:53,519
she emailed her professors about a fictitious
death in the family. But this wasn't

510
00:46:53,519 --> 00:46:59,360
true. There was no death in
my family. And then she started to

511
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:04,119
take some steps that looked like she
was trying to come up with some hasty

512
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,440
plan to get away for a few
days. So she called one eight hundred

513
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:14,039
goes Stowe, which was just an
information line, and Stowe is a ski

514
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:22,199
resort popular up in Vermont, near
kind of near Burlington. She also called

515
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:27,519
a condo owner in New Hampshire at
a condo complex that my family had stayed

516
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:34,639
at before, but she does not
secure a reservation. Then she goes to

517
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,400
an ATM and withdraws two hundred and
eighty dollars, leaving Jesshi of twenty dollars

518
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:45,599
in her bank account. Then she
goes to a liquor store and she purchases

519
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:52,920
approximately forty dollars worth of liquor,
and she also recycles seventy nine cans for

520
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:58,800
three dollars and ninety five cents,
And that's always stood out to me because

521
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:04,760
it's kind of a weird to do. I know that she was conscious of

522
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,719
being a good citizen, and you
know, recycling wouldn't be out of character

523
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,880
for her, but it's just it's
a lot of cans. And we know

524
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,599
that because the receipt for both the
liquor and the recycling was found in her

525
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,480
abandoned car. Then she goes and
she picks up some accident forms because she

526
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:32,519
had an accident in my father's car
on the Saturday before she disappeared, so

527
00:48:32,559 --> 00:48:37,719
she had those accident forms inside her
car. They were found inside the abandoned

528
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:43,599
car. And then she doesn't tell
anyone and just heads north. Really,

529
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,360
it doesn't seem like she had any
particular destination in mind. She didn't have

530
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:57,400
any reservations. And then there's a
few hours where there's nothing. We do

531
00:48:57,519 --> 00:49:01,960
know that she checked her voicemail at
four thirty seven pm and that's the last

532
00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:08,480
known cell phone activity ever. And
then at seven thirty pm in a small

533
00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:15,840
town called Woodsville, New Hampshire.
A witness notices a vehicle off the side

534
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:22,360
of the road in the eastbound lane, facing the wrong direction, so she

535
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:28,039
calls nine to one one, and
a few minutes later her neighbor, a

536
00:49:28,079 --> 00:49:34,400
bus driver, is returning home,
and he parks his bus and stops to

537
00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:38,719
the driver, who we have to
assume was Mara, offers help and the

538
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:44,760
driver declines, and he goes back
to his home and he places the second

539
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,039
nine one one call at seven forty
two, and then a few minutes later,

540
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:58,320
the first responding officer arrives on scene
at seven forty six, and the

541
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:05,400
car is locked, is nowhere in
sight, and she's never been seen again.

542
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:08,400
So that's kind of the high level
overview. There's a whole lot more

543
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:15,840
to the story, but that's kind
of the the main points there, I

544
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,679
guess, before we get into exactly
that all the other information. When we

545
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:29,679
talked last month and I told you
about the newspaper, you seemed pretty intrigued,

546
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,639
and I asked you you know what
you thought, and you said that

547
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:37,039
you and correct me if I'm wrong, that you've come to the conclusion that

548
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:42,639
it seems most likely that Maura was
abducted. Do you want to go into

549
00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:45,480
that a little bit and like,
what brought you to that conclusion. Yeah,

550
00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:52,599
well, there's two reasons that lead
me to believe that she was abducted

551
00:50:52,679 --> 00:50:58,320
and most likely was met with foul
play. And the first one is that

552
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,840
in twenty years, there has been
no credible sightings. Now there have been

553
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:08,800
hundreds of sightings all the time,
but none of them have been deemed credible.

554
00:51:09,559 --> 00:51:15,599
So that's the number one reason.
And the second reason is nothing's ever

555
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:19,719
been found. So we know that
she took her backpack, it was a

556
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,119
black backpack, she took her wallet, her cell phone, her keys.

557
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:30,920
Nothing has ever been found, and
so that leads me to believe that in

558
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:37,199
that short time frame, and we're
talking minutes here, when the bus driver

559
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:44,920
left the scene and when the first
responding officer arrived, there's no way that

560
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:51,960
she could have gotten away from the
scene that quickly on foot, and she

561
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:57,000
would have had to take the roadway
because there was over two feet of snow

562
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,480
and there were no footprints in the
snow, so we know that she didn't

563
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,760
go into the woods. So yeah, I mean, for those reasons,

564
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:12,159
I believe she accepted a ride away
from the scene in those minutes between the

565
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:17,719
bus driver engaging with her and the
responding officer. And I just think that

566
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:27,039
she probably accepted a ride from the
wrong person. And you had mentioned a

567
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:35,000
smoking man, Yes, tell me
more about that. On The first witness

568
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:40,159
who called her name was Missus Westman. She called in. In the dispatch

569
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:45,480
log, she mentions that she thought
she saw a man smoking a cigarette.

570
00:52:46,519 --> 00:52:52,840
She later recanted and said it may
not have been a man smoking a cigarette.

571
00:52:53,159 --> 00:52:59,280
It could have been the light from
a cell phone. So from the

572
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,599
minute my sister went missing, or
the minute of the first nine on one

573
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:10,000
call, we don't have a clear
picture of what is happening. And it's

574
00:53:10,039 --> 00:53:16,440
been that way for twenty years,
the stories clouded with questions from the minute

575
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,920
that she disappeared. Now, I
you know, we met I guess three

576
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,039
years ago at True Crime Podcast Festival
and I saw you give what is I

577
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:38,400
think maybe the most important presentation or
discussion on true crime media empathy victims' families.

578
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:44,280
Are you comfortable? You know,
obviously I don't want you to give

579
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,960
a thirty minute presentation, but good, you know, a hammering home.

580
00:53:49,159 --> 00:53:52,840
I guess the most critical points from
that for listeners and people who do engage

581
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,920
in true crime. Yeah. Well, the whole reason for that is,

582
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,800
you know, obviously I have a
lot of experience. I've been doing this

583
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:07,079
for twenty years, and something that
I noticed was this gap between true crime

584
00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:12,920
consumers and creators and the real humans
at the center of these tragedies, and

585
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:23,119
that gap allows for speculation, criticism, misinformation. And so I experienced this

586
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:30,440
myself where when we bridge that gap
with empathy, it brings those two sides

587
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:37,519
closer together and then you're really able
to understand that, Okay, this is

588
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:42,679
a real person, this is a
real family that's stuck in the grips of

589
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:51,440
ambiguity. They're not characters in the
screenplay. So I created this awareness campaign

590
00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:58,000
called Engage with Empathy, and it's
built off of four pillars that spell out

591
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:04,360
care, so it's quick and easy
way to remember it when dealing with these

592
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:10,000
stories. And the first is is
it victim centered? Are we discussing information

593
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:15,760
that's going to further the case or
are we discussed discussing a topic that just

594
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:24,519
entertains And the A is avoiding harmful
misinformation. That's pretty obvious. Why that's

595
00:55:24,559 --> 00:55:31,760
a problem. The R is research
responsibly and that's a big one because a

596
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:37,280
lot of times people don't do their
due diligence and they'll read something online like

597
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:43,320
you alluded to earlier, and just
repeat it and then it's a train off

598
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:50,719
the tracks and it's just this this
snowball of misinformation that you can't you know,

599
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,960
stop it. And so you've got
to do your own due diligence and

600
00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:05,280
you've got a question sourcing and you
know, put some work in before you

601
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,880
just spot spout out something that you
read online. And then the e is

602
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:19,400
engaged with empathy because the fact of
the matter is the victims nor the families

603
00:56:19,679 --> 00:56:22,840
chose these tragic paths and we don't
have a way out. It's kind of

604
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:30,719
like we're frozen. We're stuck,
and so there's a responsibility for both consumers

605
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:38,360
and creators to handle handle it with
care. And so that's kind of the

606
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:45,880
overview and why I think empathy is
important. And it really gets people thinking

607
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:52,119
about Okay, am I just cleaning
my house listening to this horrible tragedy,

608
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:57,559
or am I thinking about it through
the lens of a fellow human being.

609
00:56:58,159 --> 00:57:05,000
And that's something that I've have felt
this has been missing in true crime especially.

610
00:57:05,119 --> 00:57:08,639
Yeah, it's something that weighs heavy
on my mind, especially having you

611
00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:14,000
know, covered the same case now
for quite some time, as trying to

612
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:20,159
make sure I'm doing it because I
can move the investigation forward and not I

613
00:57:20,159 --> 00:57:29,000
guess out of habit or out of
routine. And so I am so appreciative

614
00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:34,400
of your perspective and not what you've
been through, but how you've I guess

615
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,920
reconciled what you've been through to help
us be better. Are you comfortable at

616
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:45,760
all, and please say no if
you're not. Just briefly discussing how the

617
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:51,239
circus surrounding More's disappearance has impacted you
and your family on a personal level.

618
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,159
Oh, it's just it's been a
nightmare. You know. Not only are

619
00:57:57,199 --> 00:58:05,079
we dealing with this tragedy of lou
Mara, but the other tragedy is the

620
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:14,119
constant retraumatization because people don't engage with
empathy. They will just say whatever and

621
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:22,639
don't consider how their words affect other
people. And it's very hurtful and it's

622
00:58:22,719 --> 00:58:25,960
caused my family a lot of pain. And not just my family, I

623
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,039
mean there's other there are other families
going through the same thing. But that's

624
00:58:31,079 --> 00:58:37,079
why I always like to hammer home
empathy because if you are coming at these

625
00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:45,079
cases with some level of empathy,
it's gonna give you pause before you spread

626
00:58:45,119 --> 00:58:50,360
around misinformation or call people suspicious because
they didn't behave in a certain way.

627
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,280
And the list goes on and on. But the bomb line is, if

628
00:58:53,559 --> 00:58:59,920
we infuse some empathy into our interactions
with families and the missing and murdered,

629
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:05,480
then we're going to eliminate lessons some
of the pain. The other thing I

630
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:08,840
think about a lot is, you
know, there are all these cases that

631
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:13,559
get covered in true crime and talked
about, and they become household names.

632
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:21,119
And I am appreciative that they have
because it keeps their cases in people's minds

633
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:27,559
and front and center. But I
also am a little saddened by the fact

634
00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:30,480
that these people are known for the
worst thing that has ever happened to them.

635
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:36,119
That's how they're remembered. And with
that in mind, like who was

636
00:59:36,199 --> 00:59:43,800
Maura? Yeah, And that goes
back to victim centered In a lot of

637
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,960
the coverage of my sister's case,
Mars lost in her own story. She's

638
00:59:49,039 --> 00:59:52,760
just a character, and so any
chance that I get, I try to

639
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:59,880
remind people who she was as a
human being. She was introverted, to

640
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:06,440
like everybody else in my family.
She was extremely talented, both athletically and

641
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:14,199
academically. She was an outstanding runner. She still holds some records in the

642
01:00:14,239 --> 01:00:19,000
state of Massachusetts, and this is
going on twenty two year old records.

643
01:00:19,039 --> 01:00:24,000
I mean, she was just a
phenom. But what's most important and what

644
01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:29,960
I want people to remember Mara for
is how humble that she was and how

645
01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:34,599
kind she was. You know,
she would write a thank you letter for

646
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:40,400
anyone, to anyone that showed her
any level of k kindness, and you

647
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:45,440
know, that's who mar was.
And so it kind of makes me cringe

648
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:52,239
a little bit when I think about
how she would react to what her story

649
01:00:52,320 --> 01:01:00,280
and essentially her life has become.
It's just like you said this us and

650
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:08,159
a lot of times victims are boiled
down to the few decisions that they made

651
01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:14,480
right before tragedy struck, and people
forget that they had a whole life before

652
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:19,440
that. And that's what I like
to remind people. Yeah, the one

653
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,519
thing that has struck me. I
know Morri's case, you know fairly well.

654
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:27,679
I know Suzanne Lyles's case very well, and Brianna Maitland's quite well.

655
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:31,400
And there's all this speculation about you
know, things they did, actions they

656
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,760
took, and how they may have
led to their disappearances. And to me,

657
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,119
I just remember being in my early
twenties and anything I could have done

658
01:01:40,159 --> 01:01:45,559
on any day that seemed routine or
mundane could later be picked apart and turned

659
01:01:45,599 --> 01:01:50,440
into some impactful or important decision.
And it's like, no, you were

660
01:01:50,519 --> 01:01:54,400
just impulsive at that age. You're
not always thinking about the long term effects

661
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:59,800
of your actions, and that doesn't
mean that your actions were leading up to

662
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:05,519
any specific point. It just means
that you were a kid and impulsive.

663
01:02:06,039 --> 01:02:08,679
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I
mean, you know, Maura went missing

664
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:13,679
when she was twenty one, and
so yes, she was technically an adult,

665
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,280
but everybody knows when you're twenty one, you're not fully developed, your

666
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:25,320
brain isn't fully matured, and you
make dumb decisions. And Mara certainly made

667
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:32,960
her share of dumb decisions, but
that doesn't define her whole life. And

668
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,679
that's the other hard part of my
sister's case is all these little things that

669
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:45,199
have been picked apart online, and
every little move she made has been dissected,

670
01:02:45,719 --> 01:02:52,360
and until we find Maura, all
of it or none of it could

671
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,119
be important. And that's the hard
part, and that leads to my next

672
01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:01,039
question, like what can be do
to help if they want to, and

673
01:03:01,079 --> 01:03:07,280
what shouldn't they do? Well,
the best thing that people can do for

674
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:12,599
unsolved cases is to keep talking about
the victim, keep them in the public

675
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:19,280
consciousness, because I can tell you
one of the biggest fears of family dealing

676
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:25,880
with unsolved cases is that our loved
one story case is forgotten or is shuffled

677
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:31,639
to the bottom of a mountain of
unsolved case files. And so the more

678
01:03:31,719 --> 01:03:37,400
that you talk about these cases,
these victims, the more people are going

679
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:44,880
to hopefully remember something, because I
do believe that there's somebody out there that

680
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:50,599
knows something. Maybe they don't think
what they know is significant, but we

681
01:03:50,639 --> 01:03:54,599
need those puzzle pieces because right now
we have an incomplete puzzle and Mars been

682
01:03:54,639 --> 01:04:00,239
missing for twenty years. So that's
the best thing. And it's it's not

683
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,960
a heavy lift. And I get
a lot of feedback where people say,

684
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,119
well, that's not enough. I
mean, yeah, I'll share a missing

685
01:04:08,159 --> 01:04:11,760
poster online, but I want to
do more. That doesn't seem like a

686
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,559
lot, But I can tell you
that that's huge. It's so huge,

687
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,519
and it doesn't take a lot of
effort, it doesn't take any time,

688
01:04:18,199 --> 01:04:24,480
doesn't cost anything. So that's what
people should be doing. What they shouldn't

689
01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:34,079
be doing is treating these these cases
as entertainment and wildly speculating and throwing people's

690
01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:42,400
names on the internet. That could
just be private citizens who may have had

691
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:47,119
some interaction with Maa or we're seen
in a picture with Maa. That doesn't

692
01:04:47,159 --> 01:04:53,960
mean that they should now come under
suspicion. And that's that's definitely happened a

693
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:59,159
lot in my sister's case. It's
hard to have this conversation with you and

694
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:04,480
not appreciate the irony of our very
first conversation. And I don't know if

695
01:05:04,519 --> 01:05:10,079
you recall it. It was at
the Hotel Bar in Dallas after I think

696
01:05:10,119 --> 01:05:14,199
the first night of the True Crime
podcast festival there, and you approached me

697
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:19,440
and you asked if I thought Keys
could be involved in Mara's disappearance. Do

698
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:26,320
you remember what I said? Well, I remember asking you that because when

699
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,079
I found out you were there,
I was like, I've got to talk

700
01:05:30,079 --> 01:05:36,519
to Josh about Keys. But I
think you told me it was unlikely.

701
01:05:39,559 --> 01:05:45,519
Yeah, I think I said it's
unlikely, but with Keys anything as possible.

702
01:05:45,039 --> 01:05:48,840
Yeah. With that in mind,
you know, I think, just

703
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:55,039
to recap where we're at now,
all these years later, is I think

704
01:05:55,079 --> 01:06:01,119
it's worth investigating this is this newspaper
could mean anything, but it also could

705
01:06:01,159 --> 01:06:04,840
mean that Keys was in the area
at the time, And even if that's

706
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:11,800
true, that doesn't necessarily mean he
was involved in Mara's disappearance. But I

707
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,960
think for me, just looking at
everything I know about Maura and the conversations

708
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:23,079
we've had, I agree that there's
at least a fifty percent chance that she

709
01:06:23,159 --> 01:06:27,960
was abducted that night. And because
of the location and the roots Keys took,

710
01:06:28,599 --> 01:06:30,639
and it's an area we can place
keys in over and over and over

711
01:06:30,679 --> 01:06:36,320
again, I think there is significant
value in doing what we can to further

712
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:43,719
investigate this. Yeah. No,
I one hundred percent agree. And people

713
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,239
say, well, yeah, I
mean, what are the chances, what

714
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:51,840
are the chances that Maura met up
with a prolific serial killer? Low?

715
01:06:54,159 --> 01:06:58,599
But also what are the chances that
somebody vanishes off the face of the earth

716
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:04,480
without a trace? Also very low? And so I don't like to take

717
01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:13,599
anything off the table. I know
that initially we thought that, or I

718
01:07:13,679 --> 01:07:18,480
did at least that Keys wasn't in
the area, and so I kind of

719
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:23,800
put that on the back burner,
but I never took it off the radar.

720
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,920
I mean, it is possible that
Maura, you know, met the

721
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:35,880
wrong person. Julie sound went out. Yeah, my dad was, well,

722
01:07:36,039 --> 01:07:40,280
thank you for your time. And
I know, or I imagine you

723
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:45,159
know, having these conversations over and
over again is pretty taxing. So I

724
01:07:45,199 --> 01:07:49,079
appreciate your openness and willingness and your
candor. Yeah, of course, And

725
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:54,480
you know, I'm just glad that
you know, you're you're still on the

726
01:07:54,480 --> 01:08:00,280
case and you know, still looking
at the potential connections, and you know,

727
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:11,239
we'll see where it leads. And
our ongoing investigation into the items found

728
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:16,760
in Keys's cabin, the newspapers in
particular, have led us to new leads

729
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:23,560
and new sightings in the Keys case
have further lent credence to his potential involvement

730
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:29,720
in Mara's disappearance. And my deep
dive into Mora's disappearance and the day leading

731
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,520
up to it has incited questions about
her timeline that I've never heard asked before,

732
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:41,399
Questions that I think could be critical. And we'll get into all of

733
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:50,199
that in the next episode. A
few weeks ago, I texted Julie asking

734
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:55,680
if Mara had a favorite song,
and she said that they found a new

735
01:08:55,800 --> 01:09:01,000
Radical CD in her car's CD player
and that their song get What You Give

736
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:08,720
has kind of become her song for
Moura that she thinks of her whenever she

737
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:45,479
hears it back bobcast, we got
the Dreamer's Disease. See Edge Party,

738
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:57,880
They got it down on your k
These songs bus It's filled, Saty love

739
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:08,039
Mesmandic Dalage written and the Smash of
Purses Friends, best Fellow. We want

740
01:10:08,159 --> 01:10:28,720
to cry. But when all the
cads a dias a, you got the

741
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:34,880
music, give you, when you
got the music, give you what dance

742
01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:41,399
that the Swans got a bull through. Don't give up. You've got a

743
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:49,279
reason to guess. We only get
what we g. This episode was written,

744
01:10:49,399 --> 01:10:54,479
researched, edited, and produced by
Me Your Host Josh Hallmark, with

745
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:59,640
additional research by Kim Kay and Michelle
Tooker, and research assistants by Shana will

746
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,159
Lensky and Jordan Taylor. Resources included
media Pressure, Maura Murray, Missing dot

747
01:11:04,359 --> 01:11:09,600
Org, The one hundred seventh Degree, dot com, and weather dot gov.

748
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:15,119
This episode was made possible by the
following Patreon producers Amelia Hancock, Amy

749
01:11:15,159 --> 01:11:17,920
Basel, Anna, Marie Cash and
El Ash Fish, Becky C, Benjamin

750
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:23,600
choppafonk Casey Jensen, Richardson, Christina
Sissone, Drew Vipond, Heather Horton,

751
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,239
Wheedon, Gillian Natale, Jordan good
Night, Kathleen Studar, Kendall C,

752
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:31,720
Charisma Rodriguez, Kimberly, Kaylna Holiday, Lauren f Linley, tuscoff Manolas Bulcus,

753
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,039
Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole Guzman, Sarah King, s C.

754
01:11:35,279 --> 01:11:40,760
Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, Vicky Russell, Zach

755
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:44,880
Ignotowitz, Warren, Beth McNally,
John Comery, Jordan M Jordan Taylor,

756
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:49,000
Lisa, Sarah Cee, SHAWNA Hardens, Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler.

757
01:11:49,399 --> 01:11:56,159
Thank you to Studio both Anne's newest
Patreon supporters Lisa Ann Jackson, Renee l

758
01:11:56,319 --> 01:12:00,680
Michelle D, Jillian w k c
h Kim S, Rebecca Cea, Alexandra

759
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,960
H, Carrie b Coox, Courtney
g and Rachelle s. To support the

760
01:12:04,039 --> 01:12:10,880
investigation and get ad free episodes,
go to Patreon dot com Slash Studio both

761
01:12:11,359 --> 01:12:16,600
and This episode included music by William
Hellfire Streams, Spearfisher, Radical Face,

762
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:21,640
Sergei Cheramisanov, amulets A Tai Argamon, j haz cal Rez, and Kyle

763
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:41,359
Preston, with featured music by The
New Radicals. You just be, you

764
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:46,199
got the music in you? Last, we got the music in you?

765
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:55,159
What slash the swell has gotta p
don't give up. You got a reason

766
01:12:55,319 --> 01:13:17,920
to live. We only got what
ck so the walk could be okay,

767
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:26,920
follow your hat, You're in home's
way. I'm rapping high now saying God,

768
01:13:33,039 --> 01:13:41,760
you got the music indus stop lest
you got the music engine one dance

769
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:46,279
lest the swell. This couple pup
stop, get them up. You gotta

770
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:53,600
readon to live. Can't fuck cat
way on the game up the game talk

771
01:13:54,079 --> 01:14:09,079
lest go. I feel the music
in you. You forget that? What's

772
01:14:19,399 --> 01:14:26,399
you? Don't only get what you
give. You're gonna get what you give.

773
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:36,319
Just don't be a bit to live. Health Insurance with by flying empty

774
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:42,920
everything makers buying by computer crashes down
and call him well then love and by

775
01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:47,960
fashion Shoes went back and hansing forty
love and better men The Trent till your

776
01:14:48,119 --> 01:15:03,960
mansons, come roll, kick your
hands in stop, pointed out dot tle very pascha