WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.159 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander an Eagle one from Eagles Speak 2 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:38.759 at Sea or Shore your home for a discussion of national security issues in all 3 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:45.640 things maritime, and welcome on board. Everybody. We're glad you've taken time 4 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:50.159 to join us, especially if you are with those attention to detail folks who 5 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.039 like to join us live. Because for the podcast guys you won't notice, 6 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:58.439 but we adjusted our time a little bit because life is busy. So for 7 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:02.520 those that have made us love joined us live, always want to make the 8 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:04.239 invitation. Go ahead and scroll down to the bottom of the show page. 9 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.599 That's where you will find the chat room will be monitoring that during the course 10 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:14.400 of the show. If you have some observations you'd like to share our question 11 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:17.640 you would like for us to present to our guests during the course of the 12 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:21.959 next hour, that would be the perfect place to do it. And because 13 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.319 it is a little late, if you've got to roll out, or if 14 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.959 you're just happy to listen to this as a one shot show and you would 15 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:34.040 like to make sure that you catch all of mid Rats and perhaps access some 16 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:38.439 of our previous shows, please go over to iTunes. Spreaker Spotify, wherever 17 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.359 you get your podcasts, we're right there. Look for mid Rats and go 18 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.359 ahead subscribe. It cost you a thing. In that way, the show 19 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:49.120 will be ready for you at a time of your leisure. And for today's 20 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:56.599 show, we are we're going back again. History, heritage, ethos, 21 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:01.200 institutional culture, all those things. They're more than just books, lectures, 22 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:07.879 static displays, songs, stories and rituals, especially when they evolve an institution 23 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:17.199 like the US Navy, or if you're looking at people themselves, those part 24 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:25.560 of what we do. They tell a story and they help build an institution. 25 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:31.560 They add to that tapestry and to make it stronger and cold neutral parts. 26 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.360 Really the good things, especially if you tell them and you remind yourselves 27 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:43.159 in a regular basis what they are. They really do make the make an 28 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:47.840 institution what they are. And today we're going to look back thirty five years 29 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:53.400 ago the USS Samuel B. Roberts, a Oliver har Perry classic frigate, 30 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:57.919 which are all gone from the service now, but at the time the SAMMYB. 31 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:04.240 Was just two years after her commissioning and she struck a mind and there's 32 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:10.360 an incredible story there about resilience, about leadership and also about a place and 33 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:16.759 time in our history, and you saw reflections of a great US Navy tradition 34 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:24.560 involving damage control. Whether you're looking at Commander of Lippold's coal or you're looking 35 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:29.840 at the events of twenty seventeen with the collisions in Westpack with the Fitzgerald and 36 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:34.479 McCain that we've talked about before, there's something that, regardless of what might 37 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:42.199 be coming across the latest newswire involving our Navy, that it is that tradition 38 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.400 that we had, we can all be proud of. And that's what we 39 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:49.680 want to do today. Twenty five years ago we had on our guests Bradley 40 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:53.039 Peniston on and here we are at the thirty five year anniversary. Ten years 41 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:55.840 later, we're going to have them on again because a lot has happened in 42 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.680 the ten year, last ten years with the stories, still has more to 43 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.639 tell, and so for the full hour, Brad will be joining us. 44 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:08.759 He's the deputy editor of Defense one, and he is the author of what 45 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:13.840 really is the reference book for the US S Samuel Roberts. In nineteen eighty 46 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.879 eight his book No Higher Honor save being the USS Samuel B. Roberts and 47 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:24.480 the Persian Gulf and we just lost Brad on the line, So EGO one, 48 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.839 I'm gonna roll it over to you for a second because it looks like 49 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:30.399 I need to call Brad right back. Okay, I'm gonna sing a collection 50 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:45.279 of show songs from Rogers Ammerstein South Pacific. No, I'm not joy all 51 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.480 right, I'm here now, Sorry about that. That's okay, Brad. 52 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.600 That's one of the flavors of of live radio. You've missed my entire introduction, 53 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:58.319 I think. But that's okay because you know who and you know the 54 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.079 incident. But we appreciate you taking time today to talk to us and the 55 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:12.920 listeners, the mid rats about the ship and the sailors of the UNS Samuel 56 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.920 B. Roberts, and one of the things I touched on in the intro 57 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:19.759 and we actually chatted a little bit about in the pre show was here we 58 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:25.319 are in twenty twenty three, and we look back to the events of nineteen 59 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.399 eighty eight, and Samuel B. Roberts that nineteen eighty eight was almost as 60 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:35.360 close within a few months of the armistist of the Korean War that we are 61 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:41.759 today to when the Samuel B. Roberts struck the mind in the Persian Gulf 62 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:48.360 in nineteen eighty eight, and yet it seems really close to us, and 63 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:53.800 we'll touch on some of those things familiarity. But I thought for the listeners, 64 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.079 because I know some of our listeners, we're even born in nineteen eighty 65 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.480 eight, where you know, for me, you and especial Sob my co 66 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.639 host, nineteen eighty eight really seems like yesterday. I wanted you to take 67 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:10.120 a moment and set the table in place. In time. We had the 68 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:15.600 frigate Samuel B. Roberts. She was just two years after commissioning and she 69 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:20.920 found herself in the Persian Gulf and a dangerous piece of water. You know 70 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:26.680 what was that snapshot in nineteen eighty eight when the crew woke up that that 71 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.120 was the world they were existing in. Right, So the first thing you 72 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.839 have to remember is that the Iran Iraq War was going on. And you're 73 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:38.000 making me feel old by saying how long ago it was, But it's so 74 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:40.839 far, it's so far in the past that people may well have forgotten. 75 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:46.639 But the Iran Iraq War started in nineteen eighty when Iraq invaded Iran and it 76 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.680 had been grinding on just horribly. It was one of the most rifkly deadly 77 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:56.759 worst of the twentieth century. And after things ground to a stalemate on land, 78 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:02.279 both sides took to the water and they both uh. They both essentially 79 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:06.920 tried to slash at each other's economic jugulars by thinking the oil tankers that were 80 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.920 they were hauling their oil um out the Persian Gulf and then to the greater 81 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:17.040 world, and so caught in this fray were the Kuwaitis. They were just 82 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.240 trying to shift their own oil out and their tankers kept getting harassed, bombed, 83 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.199 and even sunk by um by both sides. And so the Kuwaitis entreated 84 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.120 Washington. They said, hey, I know you don't you don't convoy with 85 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:36.160 third party ships, but I wonder if we worked something out, And Washington 86 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:42.439 said, m not not so interested. Whereupon Kuwait went to Moscow and and 87 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.480 suddenly suddenly DC had had second thoughts. Okay, let's let's see what we 88 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.560 can do here. And the scheme they come up with was an operation called 89 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:55.920 Ernest Will. They reflagged these Kuwaiti tankers. They painted out the names on 90 00:07:55.959 --> 00:08:00.680 the backs of the of the supertankers. Al Rica became um US as Bridgeton 91 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:07.360 for example, homeported in Philadelphia and now under US flag, these tankers could 92 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.000 legally be escorted by the US Navy. So this is where the Roberts comes 93 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.920 in. It was as you mentioned, I think you mentioned it was. 94 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.759 It was just barely two years into commission in nineteen eighty six, and it 95 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:26.000 was dispatched um in no, I'm sorry, it was a commissioned to eighty 96 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.160 six. In February eighty eight, it was dispatched to the Persian Gulf to 97 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:35.159 join this convoy operation Operation Earnest Will. So it duly joined up. It 98 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:39.759 duly escorted tankers from what they like to call the Kmart parking lot just outside 99 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.720 the gulf all the way down to Quait, drop them off, let them 100 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:48.399 load up, escort them back, and various groups of ships were there there. 101 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.639 There were a couple dozen vessels US US warships doing this convoy duty at 102 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:58.879 any time. So April fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight, the Roberts is coming 103 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:05.200 back from one of these escort missions and they are more or less in the 104 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.480 exact center of the Persian Gulf. When the lookout in the Forecastle about four 105 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.240 pm hazy day, he said, I see something. I see something. 106 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.039 It looks like mines. So the OD gets out his binoculars, looks out 107 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.200 there and says, yep, that's that's what it is. Let's uh, 108 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.679 you know, all stop. The skipper happened to be below right at that 109 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.399 moment he was actually discussing. He was talking with his it is his chief 110 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.799 mess cook, asking why there was too much spinach recently. But when he 111 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.559 felt the ship backing down, obviously he you know, he ran up to 112 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.320 the bridge, got his own binocks on it and said, yeah, those 113 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:45.320 are minds. So what are they going to do. Well, there wasn't 114 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.399 much training on what a skipper or NOD should do once they found themselves inside 115 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:56.120 a mine field. But but the skipper, Paul Wrenn, Commander Paul Wrenn, 116 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.360 looked back down his wake and saw it pointing six straight to the to 117 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:01.480 the end of the Persian Gulf, and he's like, okay, we got 118 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.440 in, let's try to get out. And so he told everybody, okay, 119 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.879 set GQ, but please do it quietly, uh you know, no 120 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.360 chaos, no no loud noises. As everybody gets your gets your battle stations. 121 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.960 And then he put out his APUs a little electric powered you know upboard 122 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:26.039 motors that that the Peri class had, and he started backing down. Um, 123 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.960 now your audience probably knows this as as well as anybody, but uh, 124 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.440 these were these were very simple minds that I Rand was laying back then, 125 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.000 and essentially they were uh to a nineteen o eight design for the Russian 126 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.440 Czarist Navy. That's how old the design was, and it was very simple. 127 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.600 You had a weight, you had an anchor that was supposed to rest 128 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.039 on the bottom. You had a length of chain, and then you had 129 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.399 a buoyant globe. And the globe was the you know, the cartoony mine 130 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.399 that you see anytime anybody draws a picture of a mind. This thing. 131 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.600 It's a sphere with little horns on it, and it is buoyant. And 132 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.360 so the trick is that you're supposed to lay that chain. So they supposed 133 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.039 to measure that chain so that the sphere floats just below the surfaces of the 134 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.159 water, so it's essentially invisible. So the fact that the look that everybody 135 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.519 saw three mines on the surface meant that already these mines were not laid by 136 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.039 the most competent of mind layers. Yet they were they were out there, 137 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.080 and since there were only three of them, there probably were more, and 138 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.600 the rest of them were invisible. So Wrin starts backing out. The Robert 139 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.519 starts back and down its wake. The problem is that a blunt ended frigate 140 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.960 is not really meant to do that. It's like throwing the paper airplane backwards. 141 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.440 You just really can't do it. And so they're back and down. 142 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.360 They're back and down. Some people think they hear a scrape. Some people 143 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:52.639 just are there when something boom, biggest exclosion anybody's ever seen, blows a 144 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:58.200 truck size hole in the engine room, breaks the keel d room immediately floods. 145 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.960 AMR three immediately flogs might get it. No MR two floods and MR 146 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.639 three starts to flood. And a Perry class frigate is an eleven compartment ship, 147 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.399 meaning that it can you know, it's got eleven watersight compartments. It 148 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:18.159 can lose any two of them and stay afloat, lose a third, and 149 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.799 it's a lot dicier because here's one more thing, um and then I'll shut 150 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.200 off and we can talk about whatever you want to talk about. But the 151 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:30.600 Roberts was one of the tail end. Perry's bath and Ingles have been building 152 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:35.279 them for years. They built dozens of them apiece and uh, and that 153 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.159 meant that they were the late Peris were as solid as any warship you can 154 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.600 imagine. But they were also overweight for their design because of course, as 155 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.799 a class proceeds, everybody wants to put their new dude ads on it. 156 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:48.639 And I'm not I'm saying that. You know, you don't want new new 157 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.600 systems and new sonars and new radars, but all of that adds weight. 158 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.159 And the Roberts and the rest of the Peries have been built to a very 159 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:00.240 minimal standard. They're supposed to be cheap ships that they could produce a lot 160 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:05.960 of. And so the bottom line is they lost two of their eleven compartments. 161 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.480 Nobody knew whether they could lose a third and stay afloat. So there 162 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.480 they were late afternoon, April fourteenth, nineteen eighty eight. They're on fire, 163 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.639 they're flooding. Uh, they're surrounded by hostile forces. I mean, 164 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:20.639 for god, think there were sea snakes surrounding them in the in the Persian 165 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:30.480 Gulf. It just could not have been grimmer yeah. Yeah, let me 166 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:35.679 command to people your your book No Higher honor Um, which did tell this 167 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.840 story. I just I mean, in preparation for the show, I reread 168 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:41.799 it and it's a it's a really good book, and it lays out a 169 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:48.759 lot of the difficulties that confront people in these Christis situations. But more importantly, 170 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:54.799 it really does a pretty good background of how these Peri class frigates came 171 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.159 to be. I mean, I since I was a round her in the 172 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:03.519 zoom walled era and probably no I remember you know that that book Patrol Frigate 173 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.720 Design and how that came to be, and and you know you worked through 174 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.600 that progression of how these ships came to be what they are and where they're 175 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.480 there they're the strong points in their weak points were I think really well. 176 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.480 And I think the other one of the things I wanted to talk to you 177 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:28.399 about was the story of Captain Wren and his decisions about who he wanted to 178 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:35.919 be as DCA and damage control assistant and how that how that came to be 179 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.000 one of the keys to the survival of the ship. And I think we 180 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:45.240 couldn't segue from that into lessons learned from the Roberts that the Navy uh either 181 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:52.559 has or has has not forgotten. Yeah. Sure, So Rinn was in 182 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.240 some ways a very conventional naval officer. In fact, he he signed up 183 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.799 to be as well because his brother had been one for him. And so, 184 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.000 you know, Rins in high school and he's hanging out with his brother 185 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.240 and the rest of the you know, the rest of his wardrobe, I 186 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.080 presume when they came to New York City, which is where Rin was born 187 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.279 and grew up, and he just thought he thought naval officers were just the 188 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.360 coolest guys in the world, and so that's what he wanted to do. 189 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:20.919 And so that's what he did after college and went through uh he went to 190 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.200 Merris College and went through UM you know, went through Suppos school, um 191 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.360 ocs, and now he's now he's in the navy. UM. One of 192 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:37.879 his first tours was aboard riverine craft uh in UM in Southeastern Asia. They 193 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.639 taught him the Navy taught him tie and taught him Cambodian and sent him up 194 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:48.480 the Mekong River to command a squadron of riverine craft and he actually got into 195 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:54.440 firefights. He actually helped build bases in hostile territory, and he brought that 196 00:15:54.600 --> 00:16:00.960 experience back when he reported back to the more conventional surface fleet. So he 197 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.679 goes through his various tours de Vaux and department head and he gets picked for 198 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.519 command, and he gets picked to command command the Roberts. It's his first 199 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:15.960 command. And he gets there and the first thing he does while the ship 200 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.080 is, you know, the hall is coming together in bath bath mate. 201 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.039 He pulls his chiefs together and he says, look, it's all going to 202 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.120 start with you guys. You know you're the you know you're the experts here, 203 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.399 um, but here I want you to know how I'm going to run 204 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.080 my ship. This is not going to be some second place ship. There's 205 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.399 no second place in combat, and so we are always going to be the 206 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:37.799 best ship. We're gonna be the best ship there is. I mean, 207 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.200 he did not lack for for vision, um, but he said, here's 208 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:48.360 here's the key, Okay. The key is that everybody aboard this ship must 209 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.039 come out of it thinking there was nothing he could have done better with his 210 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.679 life for those three years. That we're gonna have pride. We're going to 211 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.440 do it right, uh, and we're gonna be recognized as the best ship, 212 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.320 and that's how he approached it. And he got, you know, 213 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.400 he got a goat locker who was ready to back him up on that. 214 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.599 He got officers who were signed in, and and he got a crew who 215 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.160 was ready to rock her up to it as well. So one of the 216 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:18.039 things you alluded to, Salt was the way he chose his damage control assistant. 217 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:22.960 And uh, you know, time was when DCA was a junior officer 218 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.720 billet and and for many many places it still is. And the thinking was 219 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:30.240 that you're just you're just running you know, you're running drills here. You 220 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.839 know, you don't need anybody who's who's super experienced. You don't need anybody 221 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.759 who you know, super super senior. He just needs somebody to make them, 222 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:41.799 make everybody do their drills and check the boxes. And that's not how 223 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.640 Rint approached it. Rinn said, if it comes down to really needing the 224 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.839 skills that a DCA imparts, then I don't want to have some junior officer 225 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.759 doing that. I want somebody who's got the pull aboard ship to make sure 226 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.640 that we drill aboard ship as much as we need. So he gave the 227 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:03.079 job to Eric Sorenson, who was a senior lieutenant on board, and Sorenson 228 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.119 had been on other ships and he was he thought that he was in line 229 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:11.160 for maybe cso maybe combat Systems officer or you know, possibly chick. But 230 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.559 he he was not happy to get the DCA assignment. But Rin told him, 231 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.000 look, Eric, you know, I've met you, I've worked with 232 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.039 you. I know what you are. You're a bull, and you won't 233 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.680 stop at anything to get what you know, gets your your mission done. 234 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.759 And you're gonna be DCA and you're gonna do it, and you're gonna and 235 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:30.799 you're gonna train our train our crew the right way. And that's what happened, 236 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:37.119 and sure enough Sorenson took the took mission on and he typed up his 237 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.720 own DCA booklet. He thought the Navy's booklet was trashed, so he threw 238 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:42.640 it out. He you know, he typed up what he thought we should 239 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:47.559 be the way that that these sorts of things a run. And then he 240 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:51.039 drilled the hell out of the crew. And he talked to any member of 241 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.519 the robbers, any member that plank owner, you know, any of the 242 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.400 plank owners and the robbers, and he's just like, oh my god, 243 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.160 Eric, Sorenson, Jesus just he's dcor DC for breakfast. He would not 244 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.000 quit, not let us do anything, and of course that ultimately paid dividends. 245 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.039 Um, you know, we haven't gotten quite up to the point where 246 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.559 in the story where they actually you know, faced the problems, but we 247 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.559 can move into that. But I think that that that gives you a little 248 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.200 bit of the sense and oh, I'm sorry. Saw one more thing that 249 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.880 made that made Wrin unusual. Not only did he bring you know, actual 250 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:26.359 combat experience, close up firefight, full and triggers combat experience. Not only 251 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.079 was he farsighted enough to put a senior person in charge of the DCA job, 252 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:37.920 but he also thought heritage was very very important to impart to motivating uh 253 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.880 and imparting a sense of mission to a crew. And so his ship was 254 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.119 a Samuel D. Robberts. Well, who was Samuel D. Roberts He 255 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.440 went off and he found out who Samuel D. Roberts was. He was 256 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:52.400 a Navy coxon who served UF guadal Canal in nineteen forty two and who gave 257 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.160 his life to save marines. During one particular evacuation, he steered his whale 258 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.440 boat back and forth to draw Japanese fire so that the Marines could get off, 259 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.279 took a bullet in the neck, died on the back flight, and 260 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.480 got the Navy Cross for his valor. That was that was Samuel B. 261 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:11.599 Roberts. The first ship named after this Coxon Roberts, was the fourth thirteen, 262 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.480 which was part of the small Boys who fought off the Japanese Center Force, 263 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:22.000 the giant super battleship Centered Force that came around and was in a position 264 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:26.000 to wipe out the landing at Lady on the Philippine Islands. And so this 265 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.839 was part of part of the Battle of Lady Gulf, world's biggest naval battle. 266 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:34.240 And the turning point was this battle off Samar that the first ship Samuel 267 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.720 B. Roberts was part of. So Rin said, okay, we got 268 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.680 it. We got a fantastic name, we've got We've got a sailor we 269 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.960 can emulate, We've got a ship we can emulate. Everybody's got to know 270 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.359 what Samuel B. Roberts is on our ship. We're not gonna be some 271 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.440 ship where nobody knows who the who the name on the fantail belongs to. 272 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.799 And so that was the third thing I think that really made him stand out 273 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:57.799 was that he had this interesting approach to to imparting, imparting pride and mission 274 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:04.240 to a crew. Yeah, I'm glad you brought the part of the heritage 275 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:08.200 and I touched on it a little bit in the in the intro. Is 276 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.119 it really is important because in many ways, and I think you you outlined 277 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.000 as Captain Wrenn did that it helps you set standards, it helps you understand 278 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.640 as a reference point. You know, you had d E four thirteen, 279 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.480 you had UM also DD eight twenty three, also the Samuel b. Rods 280 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:33.960 and then of course we had fg U fifty eight and well, I was 281 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:40.799 I'm looking forward to the to the next period class we have coming online that 282 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.759 the Constellation class, the first three they've named, is going to be Consolation 283 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.920 Congress in Chesterpeak and it's kind of a little pet peeve of mine. And 284 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.359 I've joked a lot with a friend Jerry Hendricks about this and we've done it 285 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.000 on the show too, with the three of us that I can get an 286 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:02.279 eye twitch with some of our naming traditions and um. Unfortunately we lost Captain 287 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.680 Wrenn. He passed away I believe last September about eight months ago. But 288 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.839 you know the name Samuel B. Roberts, and there are other names that 289 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:18.039 really have a tradition where you've got an eighteen year old sailor just out of 290 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.799 boot camp showing up for his first command, can walk across the quarter deck 291 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:30.640 and can reference where he is to what has gone before in the history of 292 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.400 our navy. It's kind of I guess it's really not off topic here because 293 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:37.480 it made a difference to how the Samuel be Roberts fought because they knew where 294 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:44.000 they came from. When we look at the naming of the Constellation class, 295 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.519 you know, if you had a chance to bend in the ear or something 296 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.240 is there. There's a hint that they get a little bit of our history 297 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:57.799 because the Congress and Chesspeak worships. But there are some great names that aren't 298 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.319 in our fleet that probably we really should be. And I think you probably 299 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.720 agree that Samuel B. Roberts, along with a few of their other friends 300 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.960 in the Lady Goal, there's some great potential with this new class of frigates 301 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.680 that we can bring some names back into our navy. Oh, no doubt. 302 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:19.880 Um. I've written an up ed on just that point. Proceedings was 303 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.720 kind enough to publish it some years ago, and we shall see. You 304 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:29.960 know, these these things take time. I my own eye twitch sal is 305 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:36.559 when we name ships for living people. And as recently as as the reason 306 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.079 in nineteen seventy, um, the Navy actually formalized a policy that said, 307 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:42.920 you know, we don't do that, and then they broke it three years 308 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.440 later with the Carl Vincent. So you know, it's I think I read 309 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.799 somewhere that the Navy has a long tradition of not naming ships after living folks, 310 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.559 and an equally long tradition of of doing so, so of breaking that 311 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.440 traditions. So you know, we shall see. But I will tell you 312 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:03.319 this, Um, I really looked at a list of ships named for living 313 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.400 people. US Navy warships named for living people. And there was a burst 314 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.960 right at the beginning of the Navy when it seemed like every other ship was 315 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.599 named for George Washington. And then we had a couple of Thomas Jeffersons, 316 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:18.000 and then a couple of other you know, early founding fathers. But then 317 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.960 really it was it didn't happen that much. You know, maybe ten times 318 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.599 in the eighteen hundreds, maybe you know, ten times through the middle of 319 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:30.960 the twentieth century, and then in the last couple of decades that's just fallen 320 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.039 apart, and we've gotten to the point where since twenty twenty, we've had 321 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:38.160 seven ships named for living people, which is about one every eight months, 322 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:42.480 and three of those not to not to bag on sec knabs, but three 323 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.880 of those were for former secretaries of the Navy. So, you know, 324 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.680 it's one thing to name it after, you know, a ship that's been 325 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:56.240 through fire in hell and sailors who've done you know, wonderful things and um, 326 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.240 you know, it's another to name it after after a politician. I 327 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:07.880 think my uh, I have a distant relative who was the only secretary of 328 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:14.680 the Navy who got blown up when a cannon exploded. Uh way back when 329 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:26.720 Gilmer he's he's the only secretary of the Yeah, uh only secretary or or 330 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.759 at least the stand well back zone. You know, they call it the 331 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:37.759 Gilmer zone. Yeah. The the the number of h yeah, and the 332 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.799 political ones are the ones that really get me. That the temporary expedient of 333 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:48.359 naming after somebody who who has some immediate political meaning that that is that is 334 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.440 difficult to reconcile with with some of the great names that we have for our 335 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:59.240 ships. Um. But we when we were talking about, uh, the 336 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:06.359 Roberts and they go into this convoy operation and uh in nineteen eighty eight they 337 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:11.599 run into a mine and you can take it from the damage. But two 338 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:17.440 years later through it's three years later, four years later. Let scene ninety 339 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:21.000 one when when the we're back in the Gulf, we've got the Tripoli and 340 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:25.400 we got the Princeton, Uh, both running into mines in the in the 341 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:29.599 very same places with very same waters. At the Roberts Goods got hit on 342 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:34.720 what what where? Where's the navy in the in the period between the Robbers 343 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:41.559 running a mine and the Princeton and the Tripoli, Uh whatever? The Navy 344 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:47.799 mine force that they're not out there protecting these these ships. Yeah, well, 345 00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.359 I mean, I'm sure you guys have heard the saying that you know, 346 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.920 nobody ever got a medal for standing on the bridge of a mine. 347 00:26:52.960 --> 00:27:00.480 Mine warfare is just one of those neglected corners of mine. Um of the 348 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:04.079 naval enterprise. You know that it's always kind of working on really old ships 349 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:08.000 with with older equipment. And I don't mean to completely harsh on the Navy 350 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.279 and then in the in the past in ten twenty years, they've done really 351 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.599 good stuff with remotely powered vehicles and and you know, it's a whole new, 352 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.960 whole new ball game now that you can send out little robots to do 353 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.359 that. It's it's getting much better. But you know, you're you're saying, 354 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:25.799 you know, why why did the Princeton run into a mind Why didn't 355 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:29.319 they have more mind sweeper as well? And I don't know, I will 356 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:34.480 tell you that. Um. In those three years, the Navy did modify 357 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:41.160 ships equipment and procedures to improve damage control so that it could it's it's ships 358 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.160 would be more ready to handle the kind of damage that came to the that 359 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.799 appened the Rogers, I mean the Roberts there are you know, little little 360 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:53.160 tiny things. More gate valves were added to firemans. UM, More emergency 361 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:59.039 tag out procedures were developed. UM. They had more first aid gear added 362 00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:03.720 to the repair locker. All of these are from the Roberts and the Stark 363 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.480 as well. UM. They also added a line to the to the rigs 364 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.319 that said that if you're in a minefield, or you expect to be in 365 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:12.319 a minefield, or you expect to take a torpedo hit, pull everybody out 366 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.559 of the bridge, out of the bilges, you know, make sure they're 367 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.759 they're up above decks so that they don't get lost in you know, the 368 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.359 first first sudden swell of water if if the hull gets breached. So, 369 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.160 you know, the Navy did its best to learn lessons and to change things 370 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:32.160 in those early years. But it's still it's still, you know, I 371 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:37.559 think missing a good component of what of what it should have in mine warfare. 372 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:42.960 Even in the last year, you know, we saw and yeah, 373 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.160 I love how you describe the fact that you know, it's a over one 374 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:53.240 hundred year old mine design, but nothing can shut down a waterway even in 375 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:57.440 twenty twenty three then for somebody to yell or to see a mine, and 376 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.920 we saw that recently in the Black Sea during the Russia Ukrainian War early on. 377 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:10.519 We haven't heard anything recently that we had John Conrad on from from g 378 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:15.240 Captain I know him and Salmorcagliano are always two guys we want to go to 379 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:22.680 when it talks about merchants and all it takes to stop merchant ships is not 380 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:33.920 necessarily some old you know, horn with acid chewing through metal army mechanisms hitting 381 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.799 a ship. It's just the threat of it, because insurance rates go through 382 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.759 the roof. And there's a NATO has a great mine warfare center up in 383 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:48.720 Zimbruga, and there's they got a great book there that outlines the numbers and 384 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:55.720 types of minds where they're all located over the globe. And even though that 385 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.720 it doesn't get the attention that it has occasionally mine warfare, even within the 386 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.640 last year, it does still tap everybody on the shoulder and to remind them 387 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.759 they haven't gone anywhere. And you don't have to be a first or even 388 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:17.359 a second world power to be able to shut down major sea lines of communication 389 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.200 just by throwing some one hundred and twenty year old minds out the back of 390 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.799 the ship. Yeah, no, indeed, And you're absolutely right about merchants, 391 00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:30.000 insurance and shutting down commercial lines. But just to bring it back to 392 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.400 the point of the US Navy, let's go back to Operation Earn as well. 393 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.559 When it started in nineteen eighty seven. The very first convoy, you 394 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:44.880 had three small boys escorting the USS bridgeton the Reflag Kuwaiti tanker that was now 395 00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:48.240 sailing with the Philadelphia home put. Anyway, they're they're going through the Persian 396 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:53.599 Gulf, and the three Navy surface combatants are kind of spread out around the 397 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.359 bridge and surrounding them, you know, they're moving down the thing, and 398 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:02.359 then fam the bridgeton hits of mind, and the skipper of the bridgeon describes 399 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.400 it later as a five hundred ton hammer coming down on the front of his 400 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:08.039 ship, and the whole thing, you know, kind of porpoises and goes 401 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:11.440 up and down. But the crazy thing is the bridge instance, who was 402 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:18.680 the tanker and had double hull, was still seaworthy after the outside hull got 403 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.759 hold, but the inside, uh, the inside hull held and so after 404 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.799 everybody you know, realized that the ship wasn't going to sink, they got 405 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.160 under way again. But this time the bridgeston was leading the convoy and the 406 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:34.720 three Navy ships were trailing along in its wake. Because you know what, 407 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:41.839 what merely damaged the tanker could very well send a Navy destroyer to the bottom. 408 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.720 And in fact, one other thing too backt them figure for you, 409 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:47.799 one other thing, um, and you guys probably know this as well. 410 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.000 The weapon that has sent more Navy ships to the bottom since World War Two. 411 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.039 Most of these were in the Korean War, but still, uh is 412 00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.440 the naval mind It's not it's not gunfire, it's not weapon, it's not 413 00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:02.119 missiles. It is it is. You'd be pleased to know that. On 414 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:06.960 the wall of the room I'm in, I've got a poster from the Naval 415 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:12.640 Control of Shipping Organization and it is an image of the Bridgeton leading three US 416 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:19.079 warships in that scenario just described. It's it's kind of funny that that became 417 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:24.400 the symbol of the controller naval controller shipping people the poster childhood to speak, 418 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:31.200 right, absolutely, uh so. Uh. One of the things that that 419 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:35.960 we I think that we really really need to talk about is the improvement you 420 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.279 know, you mentioned some of it already in the damage control world as a 421 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:44.400 result of the Roberts. And you know, I think that there's a new 422 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:52.799 surface uh trainer uh in Hawaii for that's based on the Roberts. But you 423 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.119 know, we've also seen that in the in the incidents of the of the 424 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.599 McCain and the Fitzgerald won a whole bunch of other ships. It seems like 425 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:08.759 that the crews are doing a magnificent job under some pretty stressful conditions, managing 426 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:13.000 the damage control stuff. Can you talk about that little bit? Has this 427 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:19.039 been there's something you've been focusing on or yeah, no, I think you're 428 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.480 right. The damage control efforts on both of those ships was outstanding. You 429 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:28.519 know, the ships took big hits and and uh and deadly hits. Um, 430 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:31.559 and yet the ships managed to just you know, they stayed afloat. 431 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:37.599 So you know, bravo zulu. UM. I do know as well that 432 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.599 damage control. You know, immediately after the mining of the Roberts in nineteen 433 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:45.119 eighty eight, it took a big step up people. People started to get 434 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:49.039 serious. I mean, the US may be almost lost the ship to this 435 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.559 hundred year old mine. Let's get serious about this. And so part of 436 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:58.920 it we're reviewing equipment. What can we do to make ships more more seaworthy 437 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.359 or da much resistant? I guess you know, what can we do about 438 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:07.880 training? Um? It all got more focus UM. And and this is 439 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.960 interesting. I think one reason, one one way that you can track this 440 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:17.079 is that Rin became something of a legend in the service community. UM. 441 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:22.039 And he you know, for for the rest of his life UM, which 442 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.840 as you say, ended ended last year, but for the rest of his 443 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:30.800 life he was sought after by UM naval schools, by h chiefs of operations, 444 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.400 by groups of sailors, by ships to come and talk about how he 445 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:38.519 did this, how did he forge his crew and how were they able to 446 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:43.039 meet the moment with a spurt damage control operation. UM. You know, 447 00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:46.199 he must have talked to two hundreds, possibly thousands of audiences over the year, 448 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:49.840 and I think it really made a difference. You know, people wanted 449 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.679 to hear it. People wanted to hear what he had done to survive, 450 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:54.800 and they wanted to know how how did they could get their their ships and 451 00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.639 crews and sailors to survive. UM. So I think the it's it's it's 452 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:07.599 a testament to the Navy's ability to learn lessons once written in blood. But 453 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:09.719 you know, they did learn it, and they did UM and they have 454 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:14.280 applied it, and so the lessons of the Roberts are now taught in you 455 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.679 know, in swass at service. Wartare officers of school at you know, 456 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.880 at boot camp. I think it's safe to say anybody who's coming up through 457 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.719 the Navy these days knows what the Roberts did and knows what the major lessons 458 00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:30.480 were another thing that it brought back to mine looking at the book and reading 459 00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:34.199 back over the Stanley b. Roberts, kind of going back in a way 460 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:39.360 to my opening question is in nineteen eighty eight, I was just the first 461 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:45.280 classmanship and mussell um. It was. The Navy, off course, was 462 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:52.159 much larger, but you had some great home ports. The the Standley be 463 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:55.599 Roberts was not the only ship. It was actually homeported in Newport, Rhode 464 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.639 Island. We had ships that were homeported in on the East Coast in Charleston 465 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:08.360 and Philadelphia, New York City. I'm probably missing a spot or two as 466 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.840 well. I know on the West coast you could be stationed in Los Angeles, 467 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:16.440 and with some of the issues they've had in San Diego where they just 468 00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:22.000 don't they only have enough room for sailors depart their car anymore. That's also 469 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:24.639 kind of a place in time with our navy. You know, you're talking 470 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:30.119 about heritage and having a reference mark is I think one thing we've lost since 471 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:37.239 nineteen eighty eight is it used to be that near major population centers, and 472 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.760 sometimes in major population centers, the Navy had a presence. You had your 473 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:46.000 local warships that weren't museum ships. They were actual sailors out in the economy. 474 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:49.760 The kids were in the schools, and you know, here we find 475 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:54.920 ourselves in twenty twenty three, and everybody's just concentrated in a few ports. 476 00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:00.760 And it seems in a way that that has kind of made our navy a 477 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:07.159 little more distant than it was in nineteen eighty eight. Yeah, you may 478 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.000 be right. And you know what, you remind me of the last moose 479 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:14.400 in New York City. I went to the Transit Museum, which is a 480 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:20.880 wonderful museum. It's it's in a disused subway station and they have lined the 481 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:25.079 tracks, the line line a platform in this subway station with old subway cars 482 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:29.400 and so they're all the way back from like the rickety you know, cast 483 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.760 iron ones to the you know, the more modern, you know, streamlined 484 00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:36.320 ones. But you can go through these things. You can see the advertisements 485 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:40.400 decade by decade change on the interior of these subway cars. And one of 486 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:45.239 them, from I think it was nineteen fifty struck me because it was essentially 487 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:51.039 a schematic map of New York City and it's but what the map was was 488 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.679 where you could see the various home ported Navy shifts, and they were like 489 00:37:54.719 --> 00:38:00.039 fifteen of them going up the going up the coastline of Manhattan. And it 490 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.239 was being advertised on this on the subway car. Hey get off at forty 491 00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:07.199 ninth Street to see this battleship. Get off it, you know, fifty 492 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:13.400 third street to see this destroyer. And it's just for those of us who 493 00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:15.559 we feel like going aboard chips, even if they are museum ships. You 494 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:19.679 know, what a what a treasure that must have been. But it also 495 00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.880 says it also it was just a different era when when somebody could get off 496 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.119 their subway the subway car and go see a Navy ship. And you're right, 497 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:32.039 it's a lot harder for a lot more people now, well part of 498 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:36.039 it. I mean, if you've you've told a great story in this book, 499 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.920 and the book is being used to train, it's on the CNO's list 500 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.719 of recommended reading, and I assume that a lot of people who are going 501 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:50.119 to DC school are reading it. Um, let's talk a little bit about 502 00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.559 the Navy's uh inevability to tell its story very well. I mean, it's 503 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:57.519 there's some great stories we have, these wonderful you know, if you start 504 00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:02.559 from damage control stories, Kamikaze's attack from the Laffy back in World War Two, 505 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:08.800 you know, five or six kamikaze, a ship ship survives and sails 506 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.719 back home and goes into Seattle to a hero's welcome, and they didn't even 507 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.440 clean up most of damage so they could show what the effect of the war 508 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:21.599 was. But we don't seem to be doing that kind of story. Everybody 509 00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:27.840 seems to be covering their rear ends rather than than extolling the virtues of the 510 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:34.119 importance of having a strong fleet and the ability of these magnificent young sailors. 511 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:38.000 We have to deal with a lot of things that that most people their age, 512 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.000 and I'm using sailors I work with who were eighteen, nineteen twenty year 513 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:47.559 old kids. You know, they were doing wonderful things and nobody really seemed 514 00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:51.199 to know it. And unless you maybe you got a movie like a Top 515 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:54.159 Gun or the or Top Gun Maverick where you can see these sailors on the 516 00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:59.440 flight deck actually doing stuff. You know, how do we tell a story 517 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:05.119 like this like the Robertson make it more interesting to people's, uh than whatever 518 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:09.920 it is we're doing now? Uh? You know, so at West twenty 519 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.079 twenty two, so the big the big conference that takes a place out in 520 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:20.360 San Diego every year. UM, this very issue came up and Um, 521 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.599 Congressman Luria, a lean Luria. UM who was she got quoted out um 522 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:27.320 in the last election, but at that point she was still, um, 523 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.199 you know, a strong voice in Congress. I thought, for you know, 524 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:34.960 for exactly what you said, how can the Navy tell its story better? 525 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.400 And she, of course as a former sailor herself, so you know, 526 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:40.400 she had a very strong opinion on the matter. But she looked at 527 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.840 you know, kind of the Navy's Twitter feed and she said, look, 528 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:50.159 does the average person know what choke points are? You know what what what? 529 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:52.159 What is all this jargon that that we you know, we that we 530 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:55.320 put out there, she said, And we expect people to you know, 531 00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:59.400 to to understand it, first of all, but then to to get viscerally, 532 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:01.880 know, engaged with it the way that they would have to be if 533 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:05.360 they were going to come in list or or you know, or even support 534 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:07.559 the Navy and you know, in their voting habits. Um. You know, 535 00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:12.639 she really she made a big deal in her last term of uh, 536 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.159 you know, look just just you know, just do storytelling, you know, 537 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:20.519 don't don't use these bureaucratic words that nobody's gonna understand. Get out there 538 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.559 and say what the Navy does? You know? And and so I I 539 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:28.280 think your question is very relevant. I think it's also received. Um you 540 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.280 know, I know, for example, Cino Guilding was there and in the 541 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:35.519 audience was he was uh taking the Navy to task on this, so he 542 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:37.480 knows about it, and um, you know where we go from there. 543 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.639 I don't know if there's some Hollywood producer out there who wants to set the 544 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.679 uh set the story of the Roberts to a feature film, shure, I 545 00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:51.559 wouldn't say. No. Yeah, I'm I am really surprised that nobody has 546 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:55.079 had the opportunity to do that, because it's it's an incredible story. You 547 00:41:55.159 --> 00:42:00.480 know, it's there. I wanted to give you an opportunity to you know, 548 00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:01.920 you can't talk about everybody on the crew. And when you have a 549 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:07.719 ship hit as hard as the as Stanley Bee was and she still comes home 550 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:13.039 on the back of a of a Dutch heavy ship carrying her on the back, 551 00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:20.000 um, it takes the entire crew. Is there's a huge story there 552 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:24.239 that you know, doesn't have to be a multi billion dollar and you don't 553 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:28.519 have to create characters. They exist in real life. It's one of those 554 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:32.159 things. You know, Captain Wren, he spent a lot of time talking 555 00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:37.480 about what he did, but he was always the man and the leader he 556 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:43.039 was. Just an event had to take place for that to be revealed. 557 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.400 And our fleet and our navy is just you. You can't throw a penny 558 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:54.239 without hitting one. Just an event hasn't taken place to reveal that part of 559 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:58.840 the story. And you know, we talked about the DCA, We've talked 560 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:04.519 about the Skipper as that ship was hit. You know what were some of 561 00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:08.519 the other major players that that really stand out that if somebody was going to 562 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:14.239 do a screenplay, you would definitely want to have, uh an a list 563 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:19.159 type actor to play that role. Well, I think you'd got to have 564 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:24.079 Mike Tilly. Uh. Mike Tilly was um he was a young sailor out 565 00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:28.400 of Missouri. Um, you know, basically joined the Navy to get away 566 00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:31.840 from his tiny town in Missouri, and uh he had a knack for getting 567 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:37.320 into trouble. He uh he was on uh he had leave off the ship 568 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:43.639 and in homeport and had a few too many beers and relieved himself. The 569 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.320 only problem was he did it in front of a plate glass window in front 570 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:52.039 of a big restaurant full of people, and uh hit and and so you 571 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.480 know, Rinn found out about that and dressed him down. Um he was 572 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.639 I think he tried to pass a fake ID. He just did a bunch 573 00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:04.440 of different things. But after the third thing, when the when he came 574 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.039 to Captain's mask, when was like, Tilly, I can't have this, 575 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:12.440 And Tilly said, no, sorry, I really am going to do better. 576 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.239 I promise the Navy the only thing I got going for me. Please 577 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:19.400 give me one more chance. And Rin, who was in most aspects most 578 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:22.960 respects a no nonsense guys, some saw something Untilly, so he let him 579 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:28.679 say so. Fast forward then to us a fourteen April nineteen eighty eight, 580 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:32.559 and Tilly is a is a fireman. He's an enginement trainee, and he's 581 00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:39.119 down manning one of the four diesel generators um aboard ship. And the order 582 00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:42.679 gets passed. Okay, everybody, get out of your bottom spaces, you 583 00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.280 know, come up a couple of levels, a couple of decks, and 584 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.239 Tilly says, you know what, I think, I'm just gonna stay here 585 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.440 with my diesel generator because if we need it, we're really gonna need it. 586 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:54.679 And guess what they really needs it? Um the fire in the flood 587 00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:59.719 of the blast knocked all four of the generators offline, and not three of 588 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.719 them off immediately, and then eventually the fourth one was overloaded and it's shut 589 00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:07.000 down as well. So now they're on fire, they're flooding, they're thinking, 590 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.039 and they're without electrical power. So they are screwed. But do they've 591 00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:15.320 got Tilly. Tilly is down there inside the generator room and he's doing everything 592 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:20.719 you can to get restarted. You know, he's trying trying process AS, 593 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.039 trying process B, and nothing's working, and so finally he's got one thing 594 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:28.480 left. And you guys know this, and much of your audience, I 595 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:30.360 imagine know this as well. But what you can do on some of these 596 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:37.000 big generators is you've got a preserved flask of high pressure air and you can 597 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.840 get in there and you can manually open that up and that'll start the generator 598 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:45.440 if you're lucky, and if you're not lucky, the generator just kind of 599 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.599 throws a piston or blows up or you know whoever's on top of it pushing 600 00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:52.559 that that lever. It's not a good day for them. But it was 601 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:54.239 already not a good day for the Roberts. And so Tilly says, Okay, 602 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.039 I'm going to do this. I can't get the generator started any other 603 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.559 way. We're all down here with our battery battle lanterns. Nothing good is 604 00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:07.119 happening. I'm going to do the suicide start. So he climbs up on 605 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:12.599 board this generator, closes his eyes, pushes the lever, and my god, 606 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.960 the thing starts up. And Rinn didn't know this. Nobody else in 607 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.400 the in the uh in the ship knew this. All they knew was they 608 00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.559 had no electrical power and all of a sudden, they've got one jenerator back 609 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.320 online. So help start working again. Uh, you know, fight the 610 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:30.360 fire. That's great. They only discovered Tillie's heroics down in the generator room 611 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.639 like hours later, and he kept he kept asking to come up after that, 612 00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:37.599 and they're like, no, no, are you kidding? Sit down 613 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.000 there, Jo keep bringing a great so to make sure that thing doesn't stop 614 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:44.280 anyway, I think that you know who needs a who needs an a list 615 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.199 actor. I think Mike Tilly does. He's a great guy. I've met 616 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:50.800 him. I talked to him for the book, and h he's you know, 617 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:52.880 really, this this guy who was a screw up the navy, was 618 00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:57.400 really what he thought was his last chance, screwed up in the navy. 619 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:00.519 Rinn took a chance on him, and he was premental in saving the ship 620 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:07.639 from mortal peril. You know, that's exactly the kind of story that we 621 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:10.440 need to tell. And it's not just the Tillies of the world. There 622 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:15.840 are you know, you could you can barely throw a rock on a ship 623 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:20.480 and not find some kid who has done something extraordinary like that. Maybe not 624 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.800 quite the level of Tilly, but we don't give them. We don't get 625 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:29.039 you know, all the credit goes to other people. It's not it's the 626 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:34.800 you can't make a ship like the Robert's work without a screw up like Tilly 627 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.960 doing the right thing at the right time, exactly the right time. That's 628 00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:42.280 that's that I think if that could be dramatized somehow, that's that's the story 629 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.599 that he maybe needs to tell about the about the workers and the and the 630 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:52.480 in the inner workings of the ship. Yeah, I agree. I when 631 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.480 I was a reporter, I was a report for the Navy Times for a 632 00:47:54.519 --> 00:48:00.519 few years, and um, my favorite talks were always with the people who 633 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.760 did the unsung, un you know, almost unknown jobs. The you know, 634 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.119 the people who um, you know, who made the plumbing work, 635 00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:12.320 the people who who kept everything clean, that people who did you know, 636 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:15.719 the horrendous jobs down under the where they never saw the sun, um, 637 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:20.079 but they did them and they were vital and that's why the ship kept going. 638 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:27.599 And I know there was a little production. I think actually either the 639 00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:31.760 Australian Navy or our Navy made it of the UH the collision back in the 640 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:38.239 nineteen seventies with the Australians last aircraft carrier. They told that story it really 641 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:43.480 can you know, makes you cringe. The mistakes were made and I was 642 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:49.320 thinking of your book and how well it told that story when I read the 643 00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:53.960 report from twenty seventeen with the collisions of the Fitzgerald and the McCain that you 644 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.719 know there are there are two stories here that would be fascinating to see Drew 645 00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:04.079 met done in a dramatic manner. One is what happened up at the bridge, 646 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:09.719 but also what happened in birthing and damage control, that there are some 647 00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:15.480 sailors, probably a couple who who have some njps behind them that really rose 648 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:21.159 to the occasion, like like we always see in our Navy, in our 649 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:25.480 military in general. But again going back to a previous point, and not 650 00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:30.519 the same thing about the Norwegians, But you know, the Norwegians hit a 651 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:35.280 rock in their frigate sinks. Our frigate hits the mind and it lives. 652 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:37.320 And a lot of it has to do with the fact of some of the 653 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:42.599 challenges we've had converting the frem class frigate that the Italians and the French have 654 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.480 had for years into what we're going to call the Constellation frigate. Is the 655 00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:52.039 fact that we were we're a little knit noisy about damage control, but for 656 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:59.159 the right reasons, especially for what the but the Sammy B showed us. 657 00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.960 I think another lesson that I wanted to make sure that we touched one is 658 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.000 and the finest visions enabled service is if you're if you're going to kick us 659 00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:14.840 in the knees, be careful, is right. As a result of this, 660 00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:21.159 we came into Operation Praying Mantis, which we traded a mine for something 661 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:23.800 else for the Iranians. We could outline a little bit how we reacted to 662 00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:30.559 the mining of the SAMMYB Right, So Praying Mantis took place on eighteen April, 663 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:37.159 so four days after the mining. And so in those four days you 664 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.360 had a team of nails, Navy seals who dove into the water, EOD 665 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:45.199 divers who who went into the mine field, and they pulled up a couple 666 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:50.880 of mines. And because seals had seized an Iranian mine layer some months before, 667 00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:53.159 they were able to match the serial numbers, and so they had the 668 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:57.320 evidence, they had the receipts, they had caught Iran red handed. And 669 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:00.920 so the decision was made in the White House by President Reagan, we are 670 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:06.960 going to retaliate. And so there were various courses of action debated, you 671 00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.639 know, should we should we go after their their navy and harbor, should 672 00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:15.159 we should we blow up another oil platform, And they ultimately decided to do 673 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:19.920 something in the middle. They had they had actually tried blowing up oil platforms 674 00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:25.159 a few months previously um As and and it kind of worked, but obviously 675 00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:28.920 did not have the durn effect that they wanted. So they thought that was 676 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:32.840 too little. We also don't want to attack naval bases. They decided, 677 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:38.480 we don't want to attack Iranian Iranian territory, that's too much. So they 678 00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:42.960 decided that what we were going to do is we're going to sink one Iranian 679 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.800 vessel. And so over the course of eight hours, um, they did 680 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:51.199 in fact actually attack a couple of oil platforms. Um. They went after 681 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:57.440 a few gunboats um boghammers they were they were called. They sunk a few 682 00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:01.400 of those and ultimately they did sink a frigate, one Iranian frigate, and 683 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.039 very badly damage a second. So um, you know, that was about 684 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.280 half the striking power of the Irany navy at that time. So that was 685 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:13.400 the that was the retaliation. You mind our chef, and we'll take out 686 00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:23.519 half your navy. It seems like a fair trade. UM. I tell 687 00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:25.800 you one thing, actually, if um, if you want, if you 688 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:30.639 want, you you'd ask, you'd ask what what rins and what the Roberts 689 00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:37.159 effect on on the navy was. And I've got a quote here actually this 690 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:39.679 is from Brian McGrath. He's a retired captain. UM. I bet you 691 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:44.000 guys know him, or at least know of him former CEO of the Bulkeley, 692 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:47.480 the Stroyer Bulkeley UM under McGrath. He's not just some CEO either. 693 00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:52.760 He he himself won the Zoom Walt Award for Leadership and the Bulkeley war won 694 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:54.920 the Arizona Award for Battle Ready Ship. So you know he knows where he 695 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:59.480 speaks. And he said um and we quoted him. I quote him in 696 00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:02.800 the obituary I wrote for in last year. He said Captain Wren had enormous 697 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:07.920 influence in the way the captains who commanded after him approached their job. What 698 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.360 we all heard from our captains, what we all heard from the training pipeline 699 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:15.000 was a similar story. We're going to practice us over and again until it's 700 00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:19.480 perfect, and then we're going to practice perfectly over and over again. I 701 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.719 think that really sums up, you know, the dedication to training and being 702 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:27.280 ready. They've been exemplified and that I think the Navy has ever since tried 703 00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:32.119 to live up to. Yeah, Bryan, it's a good good friend of 704 00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:37.639 our program. Have you found him on a number of times, And I'm 705 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:43.599 glad to hear that that lesson reached to the to the following commander CEOs. 706 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:47.559 It's it's an important lesson. Train train like you fight like you'll fight, 707 00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:53.639 and things tend to work out the way they should work out before we move 708 00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:59.280 on to something else. Any any other lessons that we need to on the 709 00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:05.519 thirty for that versary need to we need to grab from the the Roberts and 710 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:09.360 from the Stark and some of those other adventures that went onymous and the I 711 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.119 call out the Arabian Gulf back in those days. Well, I think two 712 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.519 of the biggest lessons that the Roberts holds is, first of all, never 713 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.679 under a smate your enemy. Um. As we said a couple of times, 714 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:25.119 this was ae hundred year old mind design. It probably costs about a 715 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:30.199 thousand bucks and it nearly sent a navy warship to the bottom. Um crossed 716 00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:34.440 ninety six million to return her to service, and she was returned to service, 717 00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:37.199 and she served for for more than a decade after that. So it 718 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:42.400 served perfectly well, but was laid low by the lowest of low tech when 719 00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:45.320 it comes to naval warfare. So that's one UM. The second lesson is 720 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:51.239 the heritage matters. Um. You know, I didn't didn't go into exactly 721 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.079 what happened during the damage control effort. But I will tell you this that 722 00:54:54.360 --> 00:55:00.519 as the sailors ran to and fro pulling out hoses, um, you know, 723 00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:05.360 pulling pulling shells from there there the magazines that were getting warm from the 724 00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.360 fires. They had to pass the quarter deck over and over because that's just 725 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:13.320 how a frigate is laid out. And on that quarter deck was a bronze 726 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:17.639 plaque that WRIN had commissioned before Robert's ever set to sea. And on this 727 00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:23.039 plaque it had the name of the first Robert Shift D four thirteen and the 728 00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:27.360 names of all the men who fought aboard her. So, you know, 729 00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:30.280 a big thing, eighteen inches by three feet, you know, big hunk 730 00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:34.400 of bronze. But it became a touchstone, and quite literally because during the 731 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:37.199 moment of peril, the crew would run by and they'd slapped the plaque for 732 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.639 luck, or to for remembrance, or just to say, okay, other 733 00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:45.280 crews have done this before, other crews have been in peril and they've come 734 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:49.159 through. We can too. And that's all about the power of heritage, 735 00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:55.559 and I think that's one that the Navy should never forget. Yeah, if 736 00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:00.679 that reference point that people made, it is comfortably no other people have done 737 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.039 this before and had harder you know, you know, fear not and head 738 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.320 forward type of thing. One thing, the one thing I wanted to cover 739 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:13.320 before we ended up the hour is one thing people don't know about you, 740 00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:16.800 and it's it's kind of timely. Is you are. I don't know if 741 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:22.679 this is something to get depressed about or something to be proud of, but 742 00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:28.840 you are one of the last cohorts to get a degree in Soviet and Eastern 743 00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:32.599 European studies that you got from Yale, and I believe nineteen ninety before the 744 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:37.679 Soviet Union decided to collapse, and you actually after you graduated, you went 745 00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:44.079 over to Moscow right after, so that you can disappear in modern and Russia 746 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:51.480 has So we all have an idea of the type of intellectual effort a young 747 00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:54.920 man or woman makes to get an undergrad degree, especially in an area at 748 00:56:55.000 --> 00:57:00.920 that time that you started your undergrad period, and you why that whole change 749 00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:04.880 take place that you never even though you do other things in your life. 750 00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:09.639 You write books, you create websites, you edit major your publications, but 751 00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:15.760 your mind never really leaves that area you invested so much of your youth looking 752 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.079 at and studying and researching and in your case living for a little bit. 753 00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:24.840 And you know, here we are fourteen months into the Russia Ukrainian War. 754 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:30.079 I just wanted to ask you, Brad, you know what, somebody from 755 00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:34.079 your background in your perspective, you know, we look back to thirty five 756 00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:39.000 years. We'll just back up a few more to the where you saw the 757 00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:45.159 Soviet Union fall to here we see the largest land war in Asia, Russians 758 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:49.880 versus Ukrainian using roughly Soviet equipment. You know, what are some of the 759 00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:54.199 things the last fourteen months or so fifteen months keep coming to mind if you've 760 00:57:54.280 --> 00:58:00.599 watched these events unfold. So the reason I, the reason I embarked on 761 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:07.760 Soviet Studies degree in the first place, was an excellent teacher I had in 762 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:12.320 high school. She was a history teacher, missus Mossy, and she taught 763 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.239 a senior course on Russia, and so I loved her her US history course, 764 00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:21.039 and so senior year came along and I took her her Russian Studies course, 765 00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:25.440 and one of the things she taught was that in Russia, maybe you 766 00:58:25.519 --> 00:58:29.440 know, at least as clearly as in any other country, you see cycles 767 00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:32.039 of history. And one of the things about Russia is, you know, 768 00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:37.519 go back to Peter the Great and you know, one Russia will go through 769 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:44.039 a western leaning phase and then a withdrawal phase and back and forth, and 770 00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:50.000 Russian leaders will will alternate between trying to westernize our country and then trying to 771 00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:52.599 exploit the feelings that they have for their own, you know, sort of 772 00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:58.440 set generous nature. And so I think, you know, you asked me 773 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:01.440 how I regard, uh, what has happened, and I think I just 774 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:06.239 feel foolish, not for having learned about Russia, but or having forgotten this 775 00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:09.079 essence of Russia. Um, you know kind of in the in the twenty 776 00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:15.000 tens, uh that it it westernizes, but then it withdraws again. And 777 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:19.119 you know, this is what we're seeing, you know, more in in, 778 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:22.039 you know, in more extreme fashion than we have in a century. 779 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.079 But it's still the same thing. You know. You listen to Putin and 780 00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:30.039 listen to his his excuses for why he had to go into Ukraine, and 781 00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:37.119 there they are echoes of the past and the Russian Empire and what it had 782 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.679 to do. Um, And I you know it it's not it's not a 783 00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:49.400 break. It it's continuity. It's just the cycle coming around again. Well, 784 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.480 we've taken up a lot of your time in the wee hours of the 785 00:59:52.599 --> 00:59:55.599 night, Brad. But thank thank you so much for coming on. It's 786 00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:01.119 been a great pleasure. I again highly recomm and your book um no higher 787 01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:06.760 honor it is. I think it's timeless. It's a very important book for 788 01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:10.559 everybody who who cares about what happens at sea and what happens in the United 789 01:00:10.599 --> 01:00:15.320 States Navy, and it's a it's a great sea story and so many ways. 790 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:19.639 So thank you for coming on talking about it again and sharing your thoughts 791 01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.880 with us tonight. Yeah, no, absolutely, my pleasure love to talk 792 01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:27.199 about the Roberts and loves talk about navy stuff, so I appreciate it. 793 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.000 It's been a great night. Thanks a lot, Brad, and thank you 794 01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:35.800 everybody for joining us for another edition in god rats and until next time, 795 01:00:36.119 --> 01:01:02.199 I hope you have a great navy day. Cheers, folding your the Dame. 796 01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:10.840 It's a long way to dipperany, It's a long way to go. 797 01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:23.760 It's a long way to differany between gn I know I don't by because dealing 798 01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:32.360 and well lest a swell, it's a long long way to dipper Lam it, 799 01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:36.679 but my life like them.