1
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,559
We're back with another edition of The
Federalist or Radio Hour. I'm Emily Tashinsky,

2
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,640
culture editor here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the

3
00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519
show at radio at the Federalist dot
com, follow us on Twitter at fdr

4
00:00:28,679 --> 00:00:33,039
LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever
you download your podcasts into the premium version

5
00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:37,759
of our website as well. If
you have not had your fill of David

6
00:00:37,759 --> 00:00:42,359
Harsani, Senior editor at The Federalist, co host of Your Wrong, He's

7
00:00:42,399 --> 00:00:47,240
back for more. David, Welcome
to Federalist Radio Hour. Thank you for

8
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,920
having me. As always, I
think many people have probably had their fill.

9
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,159
But it's too bad. It's too
bad. You know, you had

10
00:00:55,159 --> 00:00:59,399
a great conversation with Molly on the
show on Wednesday's edition of Your Wrong.

11
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,799
But I think David, you and
I were talking, and you know,

12
00:01:03,879 --> 00:01:11,439
I had some questions for you as
somebody who's covered the situation in Israel for

13
00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:15,920
years, and as you were working
through some of my questions and some of

14
00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,760
the staff's questions, you basically were
like, this would be a great podcast.

15
00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,879
So I think, and you can
correct me if this is wrong framing

16
00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:26,519
here, David, but I think
it would be sort of helpful to peel

17
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,799
back all of the layers of history, not all of the layers actually,

18
00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:34,159
because that would be basically impossible,
but peel back some of the layers of

19
00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:40,079
history to get to a point where
we can kind of understand contextually what this

20
00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:47,400
very critical slice of land has meant
to people over so many centuries. Does

21
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,879
that sound good? Yeah, I
mean I think there's a ton or I

22
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:56,120
know there's a ton of illiteracy about
it. But also viewing this situation and

23
00:01:56,439 --> 00:02:02,319
without history is ridiculous, right,
So I think adding that context is vital,

24
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,719
and it's you know, I hear
a lot of people say it's complicated.

25
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,439
I don't know that it's morally complicated
really or that complicated historically, but

26
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,560
there is a lot to it,
if that makes sense. Yeah. Absolutely.

27
00:02:15,879 --> 00:02:17,599
I'm wondering, and again, like
you can say whether this is the

28
00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:23,120
best way to start, but I'm
wondering actually if maybe starting by asking you

29
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:29,800
what some of the historically illiterate questions
or arguments I should say you've heard this

30
00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:37,400
week have been. Is there a
particular narrative you think is most worth debunking

31
00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:40,400
or kind of pulling at that thread
and showing how you know it kind of

32
00:02:40,439 --> 00:02:45,560
unravels. Well, that's interesting.
I think I'd take a step back first

33
00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:49,159
and say that a lot of the
language people use and it's not their fault.

34
00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:52,599
I think we've been programmed to use
certain words, and this actually is

35
00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:59,840
the sort of thing that is widespread
in all areas of political and foreign policy

36
00:02:59,879 --> 00:03:07,360
to discussion where we use words like
occupied territory or settlements or occupation, which

37
00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:15,159
intimates something very strongly that is not
exactly true or does not exactly fully explain

38
00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:20,000
the context of events. So let's
take the idea that Gaza is occupied.

39
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:23,719
I think I make it the years
slightly off. I think it was two

40
00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:28,680
thousand and four or five where Ariel
Sharon, then the Prime Minister of Israel,

41
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:37,039
gave autonomy to the Palestinian people in
the Gaza area. Israel doesn't really

42
00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:45,479
have, you know, much of
a Israelis and the Jewish Jewish history doesn't

43
00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,599
have much claim on gods. I'm
not saying they weren't there first and all

44
00:03:47,639 --> 00:03:51,080
that, but I am saying that
they don't really care about Kazaf. They

45
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,759
could hand Gaza back to Egypt,
they would gladly do it. It's not

46
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,319
like the West Bank there are no
you know, it's not the heart of

47
00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,719
the Jewish faith or you know,
it doesn't have Jewish sites in ancient Jewish

48
00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:02,560
cities in the same way the West
Bank does. But anyway, so Arial

49
00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:10,240
Sharon actually uprooted settlements there. There
was some infrastructure there and all of that,

50
00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:15,479
and very soon the Palestinians were ripped
up that infrastructure. You know,

51
00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:23,079
there were elections and Hamas essentially won
and started, you know, throwing FATA

52
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,240
officials, the more moderate party,
off roofs and killing them, and they

53
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:33,000
took over Gaza and they've used it
as basically a mini terror states since then.

54
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:39,639
If you know, I don't really
understand why people keep saying that it's

55
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,759
an occupied place simply because it doesn't
have statehood. It was given sort of

56
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,519
a you know, autonomy, and
it hasn't, you know, And it

57
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,279
was like a test run for a
Palestinian state. And this is what happens.

58
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,480
Only a few weeks ago, maybe
a couple of months ago, FATA

59
00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:59,959
in the West Bank was in unity
talks with Hamas to form a governm.

60
00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:02,720
These are the people who will if
you they can have an election in the

61
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,079
West Bank, not for twelve years. I believe now because Hamas will win

62
00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:10,319
or similar you know, folks to
ha Mus will win. These are the

63
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,879
people that you know, the left
and some on the right want to give

64
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,399
a state to. That is insane. The United States would never do anything

65
00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:20,639
like that. I mean, that's
just recent history, but I mean I

66
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,560
would say that that's the biggest kind
of myth being floated around. Yeah,

67
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,319
that's really interesting for a number of
reasons. But that question of going back

68
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,600
to I think it was two thousand
and five, the question of settlements,

69
00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:40,079
as you mentioned, that has been
you know, I saw, actually,

70
00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:44,600
this is pretty funny. I saw
a quote from Judith Butler Nelly Bowls and

71
00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:50,160
the Free Press is hilarious. Friday
Newsletter today quoted Judith Butler saying something like

72
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:55,480
it's important to see Hamas and Hezbollah
as a part of the global left.

73
00:05:56,079 --> 00:06:00,879
So that paraphrasing it, but something
to that extent, which is just spectacular

74
00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:02,519
for a lot of reasons that you
just mentioned, the lack of ability to

75
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:09,759
have elections, and you know,
obviously the barberism and slaughter and terrorism.

76
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:15,959
But David, that's settlements question has
been sort of at the forefront of a

77
00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:20,720
lot of leftist discourse this week.
Settlements. You used the phrase when you're

78
00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:25,759
talking about settlements in Gaza, people
talk about settlements in the West Bank as

79
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,800
well. What does that mean?
Well, yeah, I want to get

80
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,079
back after this to the question of
the long term actual connection between the left

81
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:40,959
and anti Zionism quote unquote, but
yeah, settlements. I mean again,

82
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,480
the word settlement, of course,
strongly insinuates that some that colonists are moving

83
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:53,680
into some place and building illegal villages
and towns to displace people who are there.

84
00:06:55,759 --> 00:06:59,639
Put it this way, I would
challenge anyone to name another place on

85
00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:03,800
Earth where we the United States government
say it is wrong for a certain religious

86
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,879
minority to live in a place.
So let's say West Bank is given to

87
00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:10,800
the Palestinians. Are Jews not going
to be able to have towns there or

88
00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:16,079
live there. It is basically the
ethnic cleansing of the West Bank of Jews.

89
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,680
That's you know, that's what That
is the position of the United States

90
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,720
government. Unfortunately, that is the
position of you know, the UN and

91
00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:26,879
world government. It's a settlement is
a town where Jews live in their historic

92
00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:30,800
homeland. The names of the towns
there are names given to them by the

93
00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:36,560
Jewish people a long, long time
ago. You know, there are holy

94
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,639
sites there, all kinds of holy
sites. That doesn't mean that Jews should

95
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,759
go in and displace anyone. But
just reverse the equation and think about this

96
00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:49,000
a third. I guess, or
I'm not exactly sure, what the number

97
00:07:49,079 --> 00:07:57,600
is of citizens in Israel are Arabic
or Arab origin. Do we call their

98
00:07:57,879 --> 00:08:01,360
cities abu gosh? Do we call
that a settlement? No, Jews have

99
00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:05,600
every right to build and have towns. And you know, if if the

100
00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:11,319
Arabic people there were an anti Semitic, didn't have a generational hatred of other

101
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,720
people, there would be roads going
from those settle so called settlements to Arab

102
00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,399
towns, and there would be economic
activity and there would be peace. I

103
00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:22,639
mean, it's the biggest cliche at
this point, but Goldimere sed it.

104
00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,519
It's just simply true that if the
Arabs just put down their guns, there

105
00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:28,720
would be peace. But if the
Jews put down the guns, there will

106
00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:31,960
be dead. And that is the
equation. And and you know of the

107
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,600
West Bank right now and Gaza,
the Gaza settlements I think were again,

108
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,320
I don't think that Jews have this
again. I think Jews would hand over

109
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,399
Gaza in a minute and not really
really very much care about it as long

110
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,559
as it wasn't a hotbed of terrorism, you know, which it has been,

111
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,799
by the way, since the since
the Egyptians had it in the fifties.

112
00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:56,159
So yeah, and then a lot
of people will go back to the

113
00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,799
weighing days of the Ottoman Empire and
say, and you will know way more

114
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,600
of this history than I do,
David. But essentially, you had Jews

115
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,000
fleeing pagrams in Eastern Europe and discrimination
in Eastern Europe and coming to settle in

116
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:15,000
this area that was part of the
Ottoman Empire, and you know, there

117
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:22,360
was tension. So the story goes
about kind of the what's the best word

118
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,840
to put it, maybe like cultural
tensions, you know. The kind of

119
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,440
Palestinian side of the story is that
Jews who were settling in this area were

120
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,480
overly aggressive and that was an early
source of tensions between Arabs and Jews in

121
00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,840
this part of the world. How
should people think about what was happening in

122
00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:46,399
those last days of the Ottoman Empire, Well, they should think that most

123
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,440
of that story is a complete myth, is what they should think. Jews

124
00:09:50,480 --> 00:10:00,360
from Eastern Europe began coming to Israel, and Arabs from all over the Middle

125
00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:05,519
East started coming there as well.
Because of the economic activity the Jews there

126
00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:09,600
uh spurred. Now if you read
there's a great book on this that people

127
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,919
are interested by if Ian Karsh.
I think he was at Yeah, I

128
00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:16,440
don't know where he is exactly,
but he's somewhere somewhere, somewhere impressive called

129
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:24,399
Palestine Betrayed and it and it just
is an incredible historical document or you know,

130
00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:30,159
it goes to all the historical documents, census, census records, all

131
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,279
kinds of things where in any event, there's another book in Time Immemorial which

132
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,879
which does this as well. But
he go he shows that it was palastin

133
00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:43,200
that Jews and Arabs lived together relatively
peacefully. It's not to say it was

134
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:48,080
perfect for for for for years and
years, and as in the twenties especially,

135
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,360
and as you know, the British
mandate came on all that they you

136
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:58,480
know, Palestian leadership was the one
that for a number of reasons, you

137
00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:05,240
know, up anti Semitism, patriot
of Jews, jinda, violence against Jews.

138
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,399
There were massacres in the twenties already
long before there was any or years

139
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,679
before there was any you know,
Israel state of Israel on the horizon,

140
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:20,679
and they caused a lot of these
problems. Many Arabs continued a most refugees

141
00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:26,200
or many a large number of the
refugees today where you know, Palestinian refugees

142
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,759
come from stock that comes from Saudi
Arabia or Egypt or other places. They

143
00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:33,960
have no more claim on that land
than anyone else. That's why I don't

144
00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:37,320
like the term occupied territory. But
we can go into that history late a

145
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,080
bit later. It's important to remember
that that mythology has been pushed by the

146
00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:48,159
left as well, and just now
talk about that a bit. It was

147
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,240
this, you know, well,
actually let's just let's just take a one

148
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,000
thing at a time. So I
think it's important to remember that this history

149
00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,879
that says that under you know,
Islamic rules, Jews, first of all,

150
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,639
Jews and Christians were second class citizens
in the Ottoman Empire and under any

151
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:11,519
Islamic rule, as anyone knows.
I'm not saying that historically speaking, Jews

152
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,720
living under Islamic law were any worse
treated than they were, say in the

153
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,559
Middle Ages, under certain Christian countries. But the fact is that they were

154
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:26,879
second class citizens, and they did
live relatively peaceful until it became clear to

155
00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:28,840
the local leaders that they would be
losing powers to Jews, who were quite

156
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,600
successful when they landed there, frankly, and more were coming, and obviously

157
00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:39,440
after the Holocaust everything was ramped up
there right. I was watching a PBS

158
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,480
documentary this week. I think it's
called Seeds of Conflict. Actually I have

159
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:48,240
been watching it last week, and
it goes into this. There are certain

160
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,840
letters from people who Arabs who lived
in the area at the time talking about

161
00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:56,759
how they can benefit from the Jews
and a number of different ways. And

162
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:05,799
David the British defeat the Ottoman Empire
take over this slice of land. It

163
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,720
seems to me from my reading of
history, they don't really want to deal

164
00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:15,399
with this area. They kind of
kicked the question over to the UN.

165
00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:20,919
The UN makes a decision that Arabs
have never been happy with at all,

166
00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:26,440
and a lot of people point back
to the roots of this as the infamous

167
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:33,559
Balfour declaration, Lord Rothschild, you
know, sort of embracing Zionism, Heartsulism

168
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:39,279
and all of that. What is
the true story there, I mean,

169
00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:41,679
I guess that is the true story. They were never happy with it.

170
00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:46,080
I mean, they're talking about a
two state solution now. There was a

171
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,879
two stage solution then, and I
don't think you know. And Jews had

172
00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:54,200
a far smaller slice of land in
that you know, given to them by

173
00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:00,440
the partition plan or whatever. So
they were unhappy and every basically every Arab

174
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,399
country attacked the Jews there. There
would have been another mini Holocaust there if

175
00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:11,679
they had lost, but they didn't
lose even then. Though you know the

176
00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:16,200
idea that there's a distinct Palestinian people. Listen, I just want to preface

177
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,679
all this by saying, Palestinians who
live in Gaza and who live in Hebron,

178
00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:24,360
they exist. They view themselves as
a nationality, and they view themselves

179
00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:26,639
as a people. That's fine,
but it is an invention of the twentieth

180
00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:33,080
century. There is no Palestinian people. There are Arabs. Even early on,

181
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,120
especially before the nineteen sixty seven war, Arabs always were trying, you

182
00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:41,960
know, trying to get the benefit
of being an Arab and to the benefit

183
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,360
of being supported by Egypt or Saudi
Arabia or Syria. They thought of themselves

184
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,960
as a trans Arabic people. There
was no there's no real ethnic difference.

185
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,559
So but they were given their own
state there, which would have been a

186
00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:00,720
brand new state, the first time
the Palestinian people I have ever had a

187
00:15:00,759 --> 00:15:03,759
state or any kind of claim on
a specific claim on that land, or

188
00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:07,840
genuine claim on that land, even
though I don't know why the UN gets

189
00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,679
to decide these things, but that's
fine. And they said no, and

190
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,840
they fought to war. And then
ever since that day where Jews held off

191
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,519
all those armies, they want to
reset history. You know, it's like

192
00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:26,039
constantly, it's like losing a championship
game and constantly resetting, trying to reset

193
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,480
it and play it over and over. It's like al Gore and Florida,

194
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,639
you know what I mean, the
right exactly. They understand power, they

195
00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:37,960
try to use power. And when
when Israelis and Jews, for the first

196
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,320
time in a very long time,
probably since the Roman Empire picked up their

197
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:48,080
own guns to defend themselves, that
is bothersome to people. And the Arab

198
00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,720
people constantly want to, you know, replay that game, and you can't

199
00:15:52,759 --> 00:16:00,720
do it. Cold turkey great on
sandwiches, probably not the best way to

200
00:16:00,799 --> 00:16:06,000
break your bad habits. And I'm
not talking about some weird mind trick from

201
00:16:06,039 --> 00:16:08,799
your crazy neighbor, or something you
saw on an email forward from your mom.

202
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,840
We're talking here about our sponsor,
Fume, and they look at this

203
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,840
problem in a different way. Not
everything in a bad habit is wrong,

204
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,000
So instead of a drastic, uncomfortable
change, why not just remove the bad

205
00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:26,919
from your habit. Fume is an
innovative and award nominated device that does just

206
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,720
that. Instead of electronics, Fume
is completely natural. Instead of vapor,

207
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,879
Fume uses flavored air, and instead
of harmful chemicals, Fume uses all natural,

208
00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:38,879
delicious flavors, so you get it
Instead of bad, Fume is good.

209
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,440
It's a habit you're freedom enjoy,
and it makes replacing your bad habits

210
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,759
easy. Your Fume comes with an
adjustable airflow dial and is designed with movable

211
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:51,120
parts and magnets for fidgeting, giving
your fingers a lot to do, which

212
00:16:51,159 --> 00:16:56,879
is helpful for distressing and anxiety while
breaking your habit. Stopping is something we

213
00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:00,639
all put off because it's hard,
but switching to Fume is easy, enjoyable,

214
00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:04,920
and even fun. Fume has served
over one hundred thousand customers and has

215
00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:08,920
thousands of success stories, and there's
no reason that you can't be one of

216
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:15,359
them, So join Fume and accelerating
humanities breakup from destructive habits by picking up

217
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,079
the journey pack today. Had to
try fume dot com and use the code

218
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,920
federalist to save ten percent off when
you get the journey packed today, that's

219
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,480
try fum dot com and use the
code federalist to save an additional ten percent

220
00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:34,880
off your order today. Had to
try fume dot com slash federalist and use

221
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:41,480
the code federalist to save an additional
ten percent off your order today. And

222
00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:45,480
for my kind of crude understanding of
the history, I was messaging you this

223
00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:52,000
week that historically none of this is, you know, unusual in terms of

224
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,079
how human beings fight over territory,
fight over faith, Like it's really not

225
00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:03,720
that. Uh, you're shocking to
any student of how the world has kind

226
00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,960
of worked for time and memoriam.
What is interesting is that you have this

227
00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:15,519
kind of Western liberal, i should
say Western like leftist argument that people who

228
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,920
lost territory in a war first when
the British took it over, punted the

229
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,319
question to the UN. The Arabs
didn't liked the question or the answer that

230
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,599
the UN gave to the question for
war lost the war. This grafting,

231
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:36,720
this Western liberal argument of occupation and
colonization onto that situation that does strike me

232
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,359
as unusual to sort of add the
sheene of moral high ground to what is

233
00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:51,319
essentially a very sort of typical land
religion conflict that went in one direction.

234
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:59,680
And by the way humans have operated, it's the question of colonizing an occupation.

235
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:06,119
Bringing that into it is I find
that to be somewhat bizarre and modern.

236
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,599
Yeah, there are a few things
there. So the greatest colonizers of

237
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,200
all time were the Arab people.
The Arab people are the ones who colonized

238
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:21,039
that area. They came from someplace
else, just like anyone else where.

239
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:27,079
Most people have. And you know, they always like to stop history in

240
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,640
certain points that are convenient for them
and forget the rest. Like anywhere you

241
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,319
dig in the West Bank into the
ground, are you're going to find something

242
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,759
Jewish from a thousand years before Arabs
ever showed up. But that doesn't mean

243
00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:41,039
that someone from Russia all of a
sudden has a claim on an ara person's

244
00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:47,640
house. But that war was much
more complicated. And but I will say

245
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,400
you mentioned religious war, and I'm
not dismissing that part of it. But

246
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,200
I would say in forty seven,
and even in sixty seven, and maybe

247
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,480
even in seventy three, though it
started to change soon after. This was

248
00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:03,880
a national balistic conflict. There were
many Christian plo terrorists who were Arab,

249
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,640
most Jews. There were secularized Jews
who showed up from Russia. They did

250
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:18,400
amazing things. I mean they Hebrew
was essentially a dead language, you know,

251
00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,079
and they brought it back, and
they brought back this nation that had

252
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,880
been destroyed by the Romans many many, you know, two thousand years earlier.

253
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,000
So in a sense it's sort of
a historical miracle. But you're one

254
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:33,240
hundred percent right. It was just
it was a fight where the Jews were

255
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,680
the Jews were the underdogs for many
years until you know, things changed.

256
00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:45,240
But it's almost a candyism right where
the powerful are. You know, everything

257
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,759
is black and white. There are
racists and anti racists, there are colonizers

258
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,119
and victims. It's not like the
Jews showed up with the giant army and

259
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,640
took over this land. They bought
the land they had For the most part,

260
00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:03,000
they made the land a better place. They attracted people to come there.

261
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:11,200
Eighteenth century, I'm sorry, nineteenth
century depictions of so called Palestine are

262
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,920
of an empty place and a dead
place. The Jews revitalize that place and

263
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:19,440
they brought civilization there. I'm sorry
that's offensive to people, but that's just

264
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,400
the case. And other people can
participate in that civilization. But many of

265
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:30,160
them and not all of them,
decided that they which they chose violence.

266
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:37,400
And again, you know, they
constantly want to now redo that history,

267
00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:40,680
which you can't do. It's not
how it works. People in Israel never

268
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,599
going to pick up and leave.
So right, you don't have the moral

269
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:52,319
high ground if you repeatedly lose conflicts
and then engage in terrorism to get the

270
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:59,839
to redo the results, to erase
the results of that. I just want

271
00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:02,480
to say, like in nineteen twenty
nine, the brown shirts or the bad

272
00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:06,119
guys, but also the underdogs,
didn't make them the good guys. You

273
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,519
know, just because there's someone more
powerful than you now doesn't make them morally

274
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,160
deficient or anything, or being a
victim doesn't give you the moral high ground.

275
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,960
Like you say, again, that's
not to say that everyone. You

276
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:29,200
know that every Palestinian is guilty here
though we shouldn't pretend that Hamas isn't very

277
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,519
popular, you know, as I've
noted, if if they were elections right

278
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:37,839
now, Humus would win almost surely
anywhere in the Palestinian world, and maybe

279
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,200
on the like Yale and Harvard campuses
as well, but definitely in the Islam

280
00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:51,079
in the Palestinian world, right right, Yeah, if you could also we

281
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,240
alluded to her or sort of talked
a little bit about Balfour and Hurtzel and

282
00:22:56,319 --> 00:23:02,640
Zionism. That's a you know,
seed of all kinds of conspiracies that have

283
00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:07,839
flowered in the you know, century
plus sense. But you know, Balfour

284
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,160
is obviously relevant to this conversation.
Hurtzel and Zionism are obviously relevant to this

285
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:18,359
conversation. There are you know,
multiple tomes written on these and could certainly

286
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,519
be you know, thousands of books
to be written on these questions, David,

287
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:32,839
But what should people know about Balfour
and Zionism? I mean, Zionism

288
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,759
emerged when a lot of other nationalistic
movements, did you know, and you

289
00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:42,599
know, in the late nineteenth century
or you know, early early twentieth century

290
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,480
is when you know, there were
tons and tons of other people who are

291
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:55,240
also talking about have you know about
who had nationalistic ideas about their people and

292
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,960
when it states for themselves and things
like that. So it wasn't really that

293
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,079
unique. It was unique in the
sense that the Jewish people had been scattered

294
00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:08,599
across the world. So I mean, I don't know what there is to

295
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,000
know about it. I think,
you know, it's interesting. There were

296
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:15,559
you know, with Britain in Britain
and like what is the history of Balfour

297
00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:21,920
basically, well in Britain, you
know, I mean the British one over

298
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,720
that Ottoman land and then they had
to deal with sectarian violence of all kinds,

299
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,519
you know, which they were dealing
with in other places, including Ireland

300
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,319
and elsewhere. There were rebellions.
There were Arab rebellions, and there were

301
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,920
Jewish rebellions. The Jews fought against
the British as well, most famously blowing

302
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,079
up the King David Hotel, which
was the I believe the headquarters of the

303
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:45,279
British authority there and they had enough
of it. But there were times within

304
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:56,400
this where the British were became or
the leadership in England was pro Zionist or

305
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,920
you know in that sense, at
times where the war cabinet, the British

306
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:08,160
War cabinet was you know, allowed
a lot of Arab immigration to try to

307
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:15,759
and and stopped Jewish immigration for you
know, to as they see it,

308
00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,519
balance it out. So it went
back and forth. But the Balfour Declaration

309
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:26,079
I think it was nineteen seventeen,
basically put British support behind a Jewish homeland

310
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,960
there. It was not the contours
of it weren't you know, thought out

311
00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:34,960
or anything like that. It was
just like a declaration literally that there should

312
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,960
be some kind of British state and
that the end that Britain should work towards

313
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,759
helping that become a fact. You
know, a guy named heim Weitzman and

314
00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:47,720
stuff and other Zionists where you know, went to Britain and or I believe

315
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:51,039
he might have been British who you
know, fought for or you know,

316
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,160
lobbied the government there to do it. And this turned Arab leadership in that

317
00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:03,519
area against the Jews basically once they
thought there would be a Jewish homeland in

318
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:08,440
their land, and that sort of
spurred a lot of the anger. Though

319
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,839
again it seems it is think about
the imbalance of this. If there was

320
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,519
an Arab country there with Jews,
which Jews, by the way, then

321
00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:19,759
lived across the Arab world. Many
of them later became refugees who went to

322
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:23,279
Israel because they were kicked out of
those nations, not just Arab countries,

323
00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:30,799
but also Islamic ones. So imagine
imagine Jews rising up because there was an

324
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,599
Arab nation in existence. I mean, it wouldn't have happened, and no

325
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:38,720
one would have supported them anyway.
But the reverse obviously did. So Zionism

326
00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:42,960
itself later. I forget when the
first Zionist Congress was, but that was

327
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,480
became a worldwide movement. There were
people like Vladimir job at Tinski, who

328
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:52,240
was just a hero of mine,
a great like intellectual. It was a

329
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,960
big part of that movement. So
there was a left and right to it,

330
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,759
you and it grew. There was
like an intellectual aspect to it.

331
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:03,279
There was also a militaristic aspect to
it, and frankly a lot of guerrilla

332
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,839
fighters later against the British especially,
but also if they fought against the Arab

333
00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:14,240
authorities there as well. So I
don't know, it's just a nationalistic movement

334
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,400
for the Jewish people to return to
a land that they have a historical and

335
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,240
faithful claim on. I mean,
if you read the Bible, if you

336
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:25,759
read the Old Testament, the whole
thing after they reach Jerusalem, their king

337
00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:30,480
David makes Jerusalem the capital of his
kingdom, is centered around going back to

338
00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:36,839
Jerusalem, about the importance of Jerusalem, about the holiness of Jerusalem. Christian

339
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,839
religions spurs there as well. I
don't think Jerusalem's even mentioned in the Koran,

340
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,960
not once. So they have a
claim there, a religious claim.

341
00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:48,960
They've had people there. Jews have
lived on that land, not many for

342
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,799
long periods of time, but they've
always lived there. It's not like they

343
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,839
ever abandoned in and when they did, they were forced out. So I

344
00:27:56,839 --> 00:27:59,720
don't know. I mean, the
Zionism is complicated, but I guess it's

345
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,119
it's just the nationalistic movement like any
other. Yeah. Well, and that

346
00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:10,839
is the historical context that you've been
talking about in the twentieth century, the

347
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,720
nineteenth century and the emergence of nationalism
and how it shaped some of those big

348
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,640
conflicts. It's really interesting, especially
considering what you were talking about earlier,

349
00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:29,880
as in the way that Palestinianism and
Palestinians are also borrowing heavily from this kind

350
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,240
of modern construction unless I mean,
I think that's sort of interesting actually as

351
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,759
a side by side. Oh yeah, I mean later on you had you

352
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:45,799
know, Nasser in Egypt and others
who who were anti you know, basically

353
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:52,640
anti religious. I wouldn't say anti
you know, Islam, but it was

354
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,440
certainly downgraded and importance, you know, and nationalism was put to the front.

355
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,359
They tried out nationalism there, Egyptian
nationalis. But frankly, a lot

356
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,039
of these countries in the Middle East
were just drawn up, you know,

357
00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:08,079
by someone you know, in Britain
or in France. You know. So

358
00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:11,359
you know, you have Jordan.
You know, it's going to be hard

359
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:18,599
to be a nationalist Jordanian because the
the most people in Jordan are Palestinian and

360
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Hashmit hash Mites, you know,
rulers rule over them. So I don't

361
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,680
know, I don't even know where
I'm going with this, but yeah,

362
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,960
absolutely there was a nationalistic movement in
the Egyptian world, in the Arab world,

363
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:37,480
and like I said, a lot
of the Palestinian movements, you know,

364
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:41,839
the PLO leaders or other offshoots of
that, we're not even we're not

365
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,359
even Muslim. That that happened later, I would say, in the nineties

366
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,400
and in the eighties as well,
you know, sort of when there was

367
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,079
a revolution across the Islamic world,
frankly of fundamentalism in Iran and elsewhere.

368
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,240
It changed from hamas is a religious
organization or a faith based organization in the

369
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,480
worst sense. But it is,
you know, it is not the same

370
00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,759
as the PLO, which was a
nationalistic or you know, movement. I'm

371
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:12,160
not saying they never tapped into any
kind of a religion or religious fervor,

372
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:21,319
but they were definitely more you know, conceptualized as as a European style nationalist

373
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:26,559
organization. Hey, y'all, this
is Sarah from the Sarah Carter Show.

374
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:33,240
Thanks for listening to the Federalist Radio
Hour. Healthy blood pressure is so important.

375
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,839
In fact, more than half of
the US population would benefit from blood

376
00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:42,160
pressure support. Superbats heart chees are
an easy and convenient way to support healthy

377
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,279
blood pressure and promote heart healthy energy
paired with a healthy lifestyle. The antioxidants

378
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:53,720
and super beats are clinically shown to
be nearly two times more effective at promoting

379
00:30:53,799 --> 00:31:00,400
normal blood pressure than a healthy lifestyle
alone. With my busy schedule, beats

380
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,119
shoes are a quick and convenient way
to do something good for my heart.

381
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,880
They taste great and give me peace
of mind about my health and overall wellness.

382
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:14,839
Effective and clinically studied. Superbats is
the number one pharmacist recommended beat brand

383
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:18,559
for cardiovascular health support. It's flood
pressure support you can trust. Get a

384
00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:23,920
free thirty day supply of Superbeats hard
shoes and fifteen percent off your first order

385
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:30,559
by going to get Superbeats dot com
and using promo code Sarah. Get super

386
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:36,279
Beats be E E t s dot
com code Sarah to get fifteen percent off

387
00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:45,440
your first order. Get Superbeats dot
com promo code Sarah. Plo is.

388
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:48,960
I hope it don't sound really stupid, but a lot of people might remember

389
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:56,119
the high profile Olympic incident with my
personal favorite dictator. I have two of

390
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,400
them. One is the leader of
Chechnya, the other the current leader of

391
00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:07,319
Chechnya. But my other favorite dictator
is everyone's basically Gaddafi. That was the

392
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,839
plo. Wasn't it the Olympic kidnapping? I think it was Black September,

393
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,960
which was like another listen. It
doesn't really matter to me. They're basically

394
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,720
all the same, right, but
it was I believe it was Black September

395
00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:25,039
who did the Munich thing. They
may have been an offshoot of the PLO,

396
00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:31,079
but you know, it doesn't really
matter. They were given. You

397
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:39,240
know, the Munich massacre in nineteen
seventy two was planned by the Black September

398
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:45,359
group and with help with the logistical
help from like far right people within West

399
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:52,079
Germany at the time, which is
Antebby, which was another famous terrorist.

400
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,519
I don't know if people know,
and Tebby was. You know, they

401
00:32:54,519 --> 00:32:59,440
took all these hostages and brought them
down to Uganda and all that that was

402
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:06,720
helped by far left wing terrorist group
from Germany. So it's important to remember

403
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,319
in the seventies and so on,
these groups were especially on the left though,

404
00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:15,599
because they were the whole anti Zionism. Iteration of anti Semitism is an

405
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:21,480
invention of the Soviets who were allied
with Syria and Egypt at the time and

406
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:24,279
things like that. So again I'm
often on some tangent. I don't even

407
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:28,799
know what you asked me. I
was like anecdotically, because we were talking

408
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:34,240
about the question of religion and nationalism, and I was thinking of Godafi actually

409
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,359
and the way that he handled those
questions in his little Green Book, but

410
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,160
which is again one of the reasons
why this is the dark humor. Of

411
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,920
course, he's everyone's favorite dictator.
But and David, I actually don't know

412
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,680
who your favorite dictator is. But
maybe you can answer that question. But

413
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,640
what you just said was so interesting
about the role of the Soviet Union in

414
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,880
creating those questions. Would you be
able to elaborate on that a little bit?

415
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,559
Yeah, I mean there are many
books written on this. I think

416
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:05,200
the best it's called The Anti Zionis
Complex, which is probably pretty hard to

417
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:07,519
find actually, if at since I'm
a kid because my dad gave it to

418
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:13,039
me. But whenever I opened it, I know, like, what kind

419
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:19,840
of childhood did you have? But
I still open that book and it's still

420
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,199
really relevant when you know in understanding, for instance, why a lot of

421
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,400
these left wingers are pro you know, Palace Hamas. I mean, that's

422
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,400
what they are. But we can
get into that later. But yeah,

423
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:37,960
the Soviet Union, it is interesting
because Stalin voted yes on the partition plan

424
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:45,480
because he believed, I think that
that Israel would be a socialist state.

425
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,920
Everyone thinks that the United States has
always been the great ally to Israel.

426
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,039
I'm not saying that Truman was not
an ally at all. But it wasn't

427
00:34:53,079 --> 00:35:00,559
probably until the sixties and seventies where
the United States became that lie we know

428
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:05,840
of now. You know, initially
the the in nineteen forty seven, for

429
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,880
instance, the Jews had a lot
of weapons from the Czech Republican places,

430
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,800
communist countries like that to fight.
It was only later, and there was

431
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,400
reason to believe this because most of
the initial leaders and this is probably another

432
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,559
podcast that no one would listen to
if I talked about it, with the

433
00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:28,119
original founding you know, Ben Gurion
and the basically what became the Labor Party.

434
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:31,320
Later they were far leftists. They
ran a pretty authoritarian state, completely

435
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,800
run by unions and economic mess It
wasn't until the nineties that Israel really turned

436
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:45,760
it around. They used violence against
right wing parties, they spied on them

437
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,280
and destroyed them. So when you
hear things like that, you're like,

438
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,199
yeah, Stalin, that sounds like
something Stalin with liche right. So,

439
00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:00,199
but so there was this sort of
alliance beat behind these third world we let

440
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,679
to say third world anymore, is
that politically incorrect? Outhern Hemisphere? Yeah,

441
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,960
third world thugs, third world's,
third world thinkers and people live in

442
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:19,559
the thirteenth century in philosophically, we're
anti civilization forces decided, you know,

443
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,159
the Soviet Union funded them, gave
them logistical support, also as a cudgel

444
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,480
against the West and things like that. It was complicated, but the whole

445
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,280
anti Zionist. Instead of saying Jews, Russians would say, you know,

446
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,679
Zionists and they This was sort of
philosophical thing that happened. So later on

447
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:43,320
you'd see like Angela Davis or you
know, intellectuals here, you know,

448
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,159
using that same language because they are
communists and Soviet Soviet you know, they

449
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:53,320
were pro Soviet Union, pro East
Germany. Yeah, some extent or another.

450
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,280
Yeah. And that's why that's perfect
because I was going to ask you

451
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,920
next to return to this question of
Judith Butler talking about how it's important to

452
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,599
see Hamas and Hezbollah as part of
the kind of global left. Again,

453
00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:08,360
I'm paraphrasing that quote, but and
I haven't dug into the context of it.

454
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,480
I saw Nelly Bowls again using the
Free Press this morning. I imagine

455
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,559
the context would not surprise us.
But the point remains, David, because

456
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:25,199
that question of anti Zionism versus anti
Semitism it's actually in the evolution of Hamas's

457
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,519
charter, right. They have their
charter in the eighties, nineteen eighty eight,

458
00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:35,280
something around there that is explicitly anti
Semitic, reads like mine comf Basically,

459
00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:38,760
then they have the charter that they
did in twenty seventeen, which talks

460
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:44,280
about being anti Zionist. And then
you hear people chanting on college campuses right

461
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:50,800
now from the river to the sea. That is, to your point,

462
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,840
that's something that has a history attached
to it, right where you have the

463
00:37:54,039 --> 00:38:00,559
kind of Western left in the middle
of the Venn diagram with Hummas. Basically,

464
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,559
yeah, I mean the Communis have
always been on the wrong side of

465
00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:12,559
civilization and this is no different for
me. Israel is always a defining point.

466
00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:16,239
If you can't, you know,
if you can't take a very obvious

467
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:22,199
distinct position on whether you're with Hamas
or Israel, then I know where you

468
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,360
know. That's very clarifying for me
at least, and it's been the case.

469
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:30,000
I don't understand anti Zionism from any
kind of Western person. I know

470
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:34,159
that there are some religious reasons maybe
why some people are anti Zionism, but

471
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,639
the idea that the Jewish people who
have been. I think it's fair to

472
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:42,800
say, given a pretty raw deal
over history, shouldn't have their own state

473
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,079
to be able to protect themselves.
I mean, Israel exists for this reason.

474
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,119
That's why. That's why you know, this has hit me harder than

475
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:52,360
anything since nine to eleven. And
I think it's because this is why that

476
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,800
place exists. This is why I
care about that place, because it's supposed

477
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,679
to protect Jews, because you're never
sure if they're going to protect you in

478
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:07,079
another place. So I think that
the security breach is so horrifying because that

479
00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:09,679
that's their number one job and they
let the Jewish people down, the government

480
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,880
there and the army, and it's
hard to say. I know they're going

481
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,880
to make up for it and they're
going to do their best. I don't

482
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,320
know. It wasn't on purpose,
but it's still it's still pretty traumatic,

483
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,320
I think for Jewish care. And
that's why I'm pro Israel anti Zionism.

484
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,880
Everyone keeps a lot of people believe
that the post Holocaust environment was why Israel

485
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,559
existed, but as we mentioned,
Zionism goes back beyond that. On that

486
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,159
movement was relatively strong before the Holocaust. A lot of Zionists were profits of

487
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:45,920
the Holocaust frankly, and but sure
the reason why you could finally come to

488
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,360
fruition in the way it did was
because of what had happened. Again,

489
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:52,880
just off on a tangent. I
don't even know what you asked me.

490
00:39:53,519 --> 00:39:58,960
I was just trying to remember,
Oh, how about the Judith Butler quote

491
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,360
saying, oh, it's aren't for
the left to understand Hamas as being a

492
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,920
part of their kind of global project
and hes below is being part of their

493
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,840
global project. And David, then, what is the relationship between Hamas and

494
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,559
HESBLA and both Iranian proxies. It's
hard to know how closely they work together,

495
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:20,280
but reports in the Wellster Journal and
elsewhere say that they had all met

496
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,760
up in I believe it was in
Lebanon, maybe Katar. And to come

497
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:29,840
up with this plan as well is
more serious they have. They're almost in

498
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,960
a sense of state backing in a
way that you you know, and Israel

499
00:40:32,039 --> 00:40:37,320
can't you know, Israel has no
can't overseee what's going up there. They

500
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,679
have serious rockets they are, you
know, not these homemade ones they have.

501
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,719
I forget what the number is,
but one hundred thousand that is a

502
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,719
serious war if it breaks out there
where a lot of people are going to

503
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,199
die. But just to go back
to the to the leftists, the nexus

504
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,679
between leftism and Hamas, this is
a long time. You know, this

505
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,920
has been the case for a long
time because of how the Soviets were infiltrating

506
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:06,280
Western intellectual circles, the Edwards say
Ed's and Noam Chomski's, you know,

507
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,440
on and on. But it always
has been something of a fringe intellectual pursuit

508
00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:15,679
to be pro you know, plo
or pro terrorist. However, and I'm

509
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,880
not saying this, he explicitly said
this, but Barack Obama I think changed

510
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,360
the entire conversation when he became president
and he turned on Israel. It became

511
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:29,199
okay for the progressive to come out
and say the things that were used to

512
00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:34,440
be said just in some you know, used to be in his zen and

513
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,960
you know, staple together and handed
out on the Berkeley campus. You know.

514
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,719
Now you have Ben Rhodes, who's
an anti Semite, you know,

515
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,360
making policy. Now you have Rob
Malley, who very you know is a

516
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,920
fellow traveler at best of the Iranian
regime in the you know, making Iran

517
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:54,800
policy now you have AOC and the
squad who are anti Semites in Congress.

518
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,920
These are anti people who are against
civilization. And they hate America too because

519
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Israel is imperfect. And of course
you can criticize Israel. I criticize Israel,

520
00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:12,960
but the idea that the very state
itself is somehow problematic, that to

521
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,440
me is anti Semitism, because that
is the only state they say this about.

522
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,280
I have. You know, Ben
Rhodes doesn't go out and say,

523
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,239
boy, you know Germany is in. You knows Romania has Hungarian land,

524
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,039
they better give it back. I
mean, they never say anything or hey,

525
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:30,360
the Kurds deserve their own country,
or these people deserve No, it's

526
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,039
only that little place that bothers them, and that tells me something very significant

527
00:42:36,039 --> 00:42:40,800
about their worldview. You know,
it's kind of easy to look at what

528
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:46,400
I think genuinely as a humanitarian disaster
in Gaza and other places like that,

529
00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:52,639
and have that be sort of the
gateway drug too, you know, sophomore

530
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,679
leftist kind of positions on this.
I can see how that would happen to

531
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,320
a college student. Although at the
same time, and you know, I

532
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,159
don't want to be too kind to
Ben Rhodes. He is no longer in

533
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:07,400
college, although his brain is maybe
stuck in his freshman dorm room. That

534
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,079
the question of whether that land is
occupied, I just for the life of

535
00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:19,519
me, I don't understand other than
you know, people seeing these these genuinely

536
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:24,760
troubling images and the genuinely troubling humanitarian
situation in those areas to which Israel has

537
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,239
not been perfect. But you know, being perfect in a situation like that

538
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:37,960
would be borderline impossible. Anyway,
that question of occupation, after fighting wars,

539
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:44,760
losing wars, and having land one, I cannot wrap my head around

540
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,320
that. Well, let's go back
to nineteen sixty seven. I'm sure most

541
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,880
people know this, but in nineteen
sixty seven, they are a bunch of

542
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,679
Arab countries masked troops along borders.
Israel preemptively went after and destroyed the Egyptian

543
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,760
Air Force. They begged jo not
to get involved in the war. There

544
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,679
is you know, you can read
his history books. You can go to

545
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,920
the New York Times. In nineteen
sixty seven, the Israelis warn the Jordanians

546
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,559
not to enter the war. The
Jordanians ruled the West Bank at this time.

547
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,519
At this time, no one's talking
about a Palestinian state. In the

548
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:20,639
Arab world, Soviets don't want a
Palestinian state. No one cares that the

549
00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:23,280
Egyptians have Gaza, do you know
what I'm saying? Like that comes after

550
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,320
so Israeli ones and they don't back
off. They get involved in the war

551
00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:36,760
Israelis you know, take back Jerusalem, which was a momentous the Old City

552
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,199
which had been treated like a garbage
dump, Jewish you know, holy places,

553
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:45,719
and they take back the West Bank. Right after the war, they

554
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:53,280
offer a state. They offer to
give back this land for recognition from these

555
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:59,960
Arab countries who don't even recognize the
existence of Israel. They want to get

556
00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:04,800
Arab say no. Over and over
again. States have been offered to the

557
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:10,760
Palestinians, including during the Clinton administration. They constantly say no because they can't

558
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,800
do it. Anti Semitism is so
intertwined in their philosophical outlook that they can't

559
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,840
do it. The idea that you
know, they want this thing called rite

560
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,559
of return where supposedly all the offspring
of refugees get to go back to Israel,

561
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:30,079
which would overwhelm the place and hamswould
rule Israel. This is the thing

562
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:32,239
that a lot of people, right, yeah, right, yeah, exactly.

563
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,480
So it's where they get their apartheid
state argument. It's an apartheid state

564
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,480
because there are different kind of privileges
based on ri city of religion, right,

565
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:45,039
and Gaza could have any privileges they
wanted. They were given autonomy.

566
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:51,159
They could create a liberal republic if
they wanted to, but that's not what

567
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,039
they choose. So and by the
way, there's so much history here that

568
00:45:55,079 --> 00:45:59,559
it gets a little bit confusing.
But the Palestinians have set up shop in

569
00:45:59,639 --> 00:46:02,079
Jordan, and you know what happened. The Jordanian government got into a civil

570
00:46:02,119 --> 00:46:07,000
war with them and eliminated them.
People were trying to get into Israel to

571
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:10,800
escape the Jordanian government. The Palestinians
then they went to Lebanon. They created

572
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:16,199
a civil war there part you know, that involved Christian people and it was

573
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:22,760
very complicated and bloody. Wherever they
go they create a huge problem. That's

574
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,239
why Egypt doesn't open its border and
let in Gasen refugees. No one ever

575
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,280
talked, no one, but it's
rarely talked about. Those people would go

576
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,880
there and vote, they'd want to
bring back the Muslim brotherhood. So it's

577
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,119
a big problem in the area.
But those lands are not occupied, they're

578
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:45,960
contested. There has never been a
country there. Israel did not invade another

579
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:49,719
country. First of all, the
other country invaded it. And that land

580
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,639
that we're talking about was always contested
the Sinai for instance. Israel has no

581
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,480
interest in it. They gave it
back to Egypt. Egypt wanted it for

582
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:02,360
peace. Israel has given up land
for peace on numerous occasions. Yet the

583
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,199
Palestinians cannot give anything for peace.
They simply won't. I'm talking about Fatan

584
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:13,559
now, so I don't understand.
You know, we call it occupied territory,

585
00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:17,079
but it's contested territory. But we're
programmed to use these words which help

586
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:22,199
the argument of the of the other
side, or at least from my perspective,

587
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:27,679
and implicate israelin Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely, did Israel invade dicate them?

588
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,559
Yeah? Did Israel invade the West
Bank? No, they were attacked

589
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:34,159
and they took land. That helped
them defend themselves because you have this other

590
00:47:34,159 --> 00:47:37,960
country right on top of you,
and now you know, people are like,

591
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,039
give them a state. If anyone's
ever been to Israel, you would

592
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:45,199
see how if you had these Cassam
rockets in the West Bank pointed at you.

593
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:50,400
It would be devastating there. I
mean there is no border. You're

594
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,159
right up on you know, cities
are right up upon each other. So

595
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,119
it is impossible for that to happen
unless there's a peaceful, you know,

596
00:47:57,599 --> 00:48:05,559
government in that place and in Gaza. The Watchdotron Wall Street podcast with Chris

597
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:08,760
Markowski every day Chris helps unpack the
connection between politics and the economy and how

598
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,280
it affects your wallet. Ninety nine
percent that's the amount of homes in the

599
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,639
US that are unaffordable for the average
American after a mass exodust from major cities

600
00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:21,280
after COVID. There is not enough
supply. With the FED raising rates so

601
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,519
fast, why would anyone want to
sell their home? Is this bubble grilling

602
00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:27,320
to pot Whether it's happening in DC
or down on Wall Street, it's affecting

603
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,639
you financially. Be informed. Check
out the Watchdown Wall Street podcast with Chris

604
00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:37,679
Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever
you get your podcasts. You know,

605
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:46,599
the sort of contested West Bank question
where al Axa is and there's different Three

606
00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:54,920
different faith traditions have their most holy
sites in Jerusalem and in Historically, when

607
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:02,880
land is conquered. When land is
one in wars, it's normal for conflict

608
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,400
to continue. But to return to
the point that we made at the beginning,

609
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:14,559
or we discussed at the beginning,
that question of this occupation ideology is

610
00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:21,000
so completely different than that. And
it's the strangest lens I think to see

611
00:49:21,039 --> 00:49:25,599
places like al Oxwa al Axa through
that. I can't remember a time in

612
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:31,760
history where there was a similar kind
of lens being grafted onto something like that.

613
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,079
It's just a really strange way to
look at history from my perspective,

614
00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:42,480
which which if you're Jewish or you're
you know, you're sympathetic to Jews,

615
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,719
you would ask, why is that? Why is this one place the place

616
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,159
where all of a sudden we have
a completely different historical lens. Why is

617
00:49:50,159 --> 00:49:54,320
this one place the place where we, you know, we demand things of

618
00:49:55,159 --> 00:50:00,920
civilization or the civilized people to give
in or the liberal people, meaning in

619
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:06,119
the small l sense or the you
know, whatever sense, to hand over

620
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,639
to the people who are or every
you know, who stand against everything.

621
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:16,840
We're supposedly you know, we're supposedly
for Jerusalem, the you know, the

622
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:22,679
Rock Alaska, the mosque there,
the Rock, Dome of the Rock,

623
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,519
Oh my lord. Yeah, so
custodianship of that is handed over to the

624
00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:30,079
Jordanians. Israelis don't even run it. They try there. I don't know

625
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:34,760
how they could be more respectful of
that. But yet, any time some

626
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,079
religious Jews are on the right to
say, I'm we're going to march near

627
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:40,800
there because we believe that's our place, which have every right to do in

628
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,639
a free country, you know,
that leads to riots, and all of

629
00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:46,719
a sudden, the Israelis are these
terrible, you know, authoritarians. Well,

630
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:52,639
Israel can't just shut down protests.
Jews aren't even really allowed to go

631
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,000
there. Can you imagine if there
was and that's a very holy site for

632
00:50:57,079 --> 00:50:59,639
Jews, you know, they're not
really supposed to go inside anyway, but

633
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:05,199
around it. So if there was
an Arab holy site somewhere in Tel Aviv

634
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,960
and Jus said you can't go Arabs
can't go there, We're going to give

635
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:13,480
custodianship to you know whoever. You
know, the whole world would be upset

636
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:16,280
by it. But for some reason, we treat Palestinians like their little children,

637
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,000
that they're allowed to act like this
way. And Israel's never really allowed

638
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,480
to defend itself, like people talk
about proportionality, which doesn't mean what they

639
00:51:23,519 --> 00:51:27,679
think. If it meant what they
think, then Israelis would go and kidnap

640
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,719
Palestinians and you know, kill babies
or whatever. They don't do that.

641
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,920
They try to limit civilian deaths,
but they have every right to dismantle the

642
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:42,480
Hamas infrastructure in Gaza and to kill
everyone who doesn't surrender who is in Hamas,

643
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,119
which is the entire government. Frankly, so, you know, we

644
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:49,639
used to fire bomb cities in Germany
to win wars. We dropped atomic bombs

645
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:52,119
to wind wars. And they have
every right to go in there, and

646
00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:55,079
they're going to lose a lot of
soldiers because they you know, because they

647
00:51:55,199 --> 00:52:00,440
try to protect civilians, they're often
going house to house, they're telling civilians

648
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:02,920
to leave, They're projecting exactly where
they're going to be and go, and

649
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,840
that costs the lives of Israeli soldiers. And I'm not sure how many countries

650
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,599
would act in the same way.
I think the United States does or would,

651
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:14,199
but not many others. Well,
I'm so glad you brought that up,

652
00:52:14,199 --> 00:52:19,320
because as you were talking, I
was thinking about the irony in the

653
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:27,599
sort of the leftist discontent or the
leftist demands I should say, of places

654
00:52:27,639 --> 00:52:30,400
like Israel in the United States,
or even the leftist sort of disappointments in

655
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:37,119
places like Israel in the United States, or disagreements. Its actually predicated on

656
00:52:37,159 --> 00:52:42,119
this idea that they are better.
That this is, you know, a

657
00:52:42,199 --> 00:52:49,000
new kind of the small L liberalism
is new in history, and therefore,

658
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,199
shouldn't you act in these ways we
now consider kind of barbaric. And they

659
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:59,639
don't hold Hamas to those same standards. Obviously, you know, maybe some

660
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:04,960
people do here and there, but
it's it's predicated on the idea that these

661
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:12,280
small D democracies, republican governments,
liberal republics should should be better, and

662
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,960
that in and of itself, I
don't think they understand that when they're applying

663
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:27,280
these standards to modern conflict, those
standards are ones that Hamas would absolutely never

664
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,760
ever accept or abide by, because
they're contrary to their interpretation of their faith.

665
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:37,159
In and of itself, these things
are mutually exclusive. Yeah, I

666
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:44,559
mean, you know, to some
extent, a Western civilized nation has to

667
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:46,639
act in a certain way during war. I think you do try to limit

668
00:53:46,679 --> 00:53:51,440
like civilian deaths and things like that. But it's very difficult to fight a

669
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:54,199
force that has no who wants civilians
to die. I mean, you know,

670
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:59,760
people don't understand Hamas wants civilians to
die. They think the casualties help

671
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,280
them. They think they're martyrs and
they think that this is going to help,

672
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:10,320
you know, spark an anti Jewish, anti Israel fire across the Islamic

673
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:16,320
world. So they want casualties.
They always have. You know, the

674
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:22,280
p l O even years ago,
would hide munitions under you know, schools,

675
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,199
they you know, in mosques,
so it's very you know, so

676
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,719
then people will show that the mosque
is blown up when in fact, you

677
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,400
know, that's a legitimate military target
if you're going to put weapons there.

678
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,679
I don't know how else Israel has
allowed. You know, everyone thinks of

679
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,159
Natanna as this this hawk. Molly
gets mad when I say hawk because hawks

680
00:54:42,159 --> 00:54:45,039
are like these magnificent, magnificent animals. I'm not supposed to demean. But

681
00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:49,239
no, you know, everyone thinks
he's gonna he's this aggressive right wing guy.

682
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,840
He's completely not. He's been hands
off for a very long time in

683
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:59,239
Gaza years ago. You know,
Israel's used to assassinate all these Hamas leaders

684
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:00,840
and then new ones would pop up
and so on, but they have never

685
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:07,039
really dismantled that government. And I
don't think they have any choice anymore,

686
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:10,000
not after this. This is nine
to eleven level stuff, especially for Israel,

687
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:17,280
and they need to do it so
and that, unfortunately will cause civilian

688
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,079
lives which are all on You know, that blood is in the hands of

689
00:55:21,119 --> 00:55:23,400
Hamas leadership. They could come out
at any time, all those guys and

690
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:28,840
surrender, but they won't. The
whole place is going to be booby trapped

691
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:34,599
for more deaths, including civilian deaths. And I don't you know, there's

692
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:37,360
no there's no they have left Israel, no other choices, nothing else the

693
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,960
Israeli people can have. I don't
know what the death holds that now,

694
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:45,519
thy two hundred. You know you
can't have elderly burned in houses and babies

695
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:50,320
killed and then be you know,
and then asked for a negotiated peace or

696
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,760
something like. These complete dimwits like
AOC want asked for ceasefires. It's like

697
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,280
ask it's like calling for a seasfire
when you haven't even gotten to death toll

698
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:01,519
of nine to eleven yet, you
know, figure it out. I mean,

699
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:07,360
it is insane and immoral, and
those people are Prohamas, and you

700
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,400
know, it's and I want to
make the distinction between someone like Ben Rhoades,

701
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,400
who is not dumb, just anti
Semitic, and AOC probably is just

702
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,639
a complete dim wit. I think
there's a difference there. But you know,

703
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,960
functionally I find those people to be
anti Semitic, and I don't really

704
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,280
think there's any need to hold back
anymore in making those those claims about those

705
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,039
people. Yeah, that's interesting because
you know, I think here we're all

706
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:36,280
for having conversations about what happened in
the wake of nine to eleven, about

707
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,159
drone strikes, about you know,
you can even talk about Abu Grabe.

708
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:45,280
But what's different between people talking about
that, having conversations about where the US

709
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:52,119
aired, and the people who are
calling Israel an occupier, calling you know,

710
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:55,840
the United States an occupier or whatever
they call the United States and some

711
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:01,000
of these conflicts. What's different is
that they they will not recognize that that

712
00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:07,639
fundamentally cedes the moral high ground to
Israel and the United States and western small

713
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:13,400
the democracies. That is fundamentally what's
happening. That is, but they don't

714
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:17,159
understand that, and they don't believe
that that they have immediately by holding those

715
00:57:17,199 --> 00:57:24,280
places to the standards, they're conceding
that those standards are better, and that

716
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:31,280
I think necessarily assigns the moral high
ground to those places, and they the

717
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,440
way they talk about that is the
opposite, as though, you know,

718
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,960
there's a loss of the moral high
ground if you are you know, engaged

719
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,800
and you're making serious errors, making
mistakes that you can talk about. But

720
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:50,639
that's seems to me to be quite
absurd. On the one hand, it's

721
00:57:50,639 --> 00:57:54,719
an incoherent and impossible argument that this
country is somehow bad fulfiilling to live up

722
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:00,760
to better standards, therefore, therefore
there must be a ceasefire. I mean,

723
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,840
it doesn't make any sense at all. Well, the inclination of the

724
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,039
United States after nine to eleven,
I don't care what any listen. I

725
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:13,480
understand people are squeamish about using our
power, but the inclination, even the

726
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:15,280
nation building, all of that,
which I think was a massive mistake,

727
00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:20,639
was moral. I don't think George
Bush was out there saying I want to

728
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:22,880
ruin Iraq, or I want Americans
to die, or I want anyone to

729
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:27,280
die. I think his inclination or
his idea was that we can make it

730
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,480
a better place for them. I
think it was a disaster, and you

731
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:34,920
know what, the first inkling of
that disaster was giving Gaza democracy. That

732
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:40,920
showed you exactly where that's headed right
now. But I think using American force

733
00:58:42,159 --> 00:58:45,320
to say, listen, if you
harbor a real terrorist, we're going to

734
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,679
mess you up pretty bad. Like
you're going to there's going to be a

735
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:52,199
big price to pay. I am
all for that. I'm not for hanging

736
00:58:52,239 --> 00:58:58,519
around for twenty years building protecting Shio
law in Shilah, protecting Islamic law in

737
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:05,079
Afghanistan, and having little enclaves that
we pretend are free, because it's in

738
00:59:05,119 --> 00:59:07,639
the long run that doesn't work,
and then we'd have to be everywhere.

739
00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:10,880
But I have no problem punishing people. And the idea that Israel wants these

740
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:17,320
occupied territories is so crazy. It
is they would love, they would love

741
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:22,079
to fix this problem. They would
love not to have to have Gaza there

742
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:24,159
in the way it is, or
the west Bank in this in this way.

743
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,039
I bet you have Jordan said we'll
take the West Bank. They would

744
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,360
agree to that in a second.
If you have a state taking ownership of

745
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:36,320
this place. Then they become responsible
for the missiles that fly out of these

746
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,639
places. So then there's someone to
talk to or punish when it happens,

747
00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:44,400
right, But now there is no
one. I mean there is Humas,

748
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,840
but you know, you know I'm
saying, there's no country that can that

749
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:52,039
governs those borders. They don't want
to occupy anything. But the truth is

750
00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:54,639
all these people think all of Israel
is occupied when you really talk to them,

751
00:59:54,679 --> 00:59:58,440
when you if you talk to the
progressive types, to them, the

752
00:59:58,599 --> 01:00:01,719
entire place this is occupied. When
you see these flags of like Jews for

753
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:06,719
Palestine, I would love to send
them to Hamas. Let talk to Hamas

754
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:08,639
and see how it works out for
you, or Queers for Palestine. I

755
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:13,360
saw some sign up like go to
Gaza, see how that works out for

756
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,119
you. I'm on the side of
civilization. I know that sounds so black

757
01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:20,679
and white, but in this case, it is black and white, and

758
01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:22,760
I'm on. You know, everyone
wants to tie this to like what's going

759
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,079
on in Ukraine. I think that's
listen. I think Russia's aggressor there.

760
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,719
I think that's a huge issue.
But it is different. That is a

761
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:36,079
far more complicated problem than this one. When people talk about how complex this

762
01:00:36,239 --> 01:00:40,559
is morally, it is about the
easiest thing going on in the world,

763
01:00:40,639 --> 01:00:45,119
right, I mean, other than
like slave labor in China. This is

764
01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:51,400
the easiest, least morally complex debate
going on. And you can pick a

765
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,760
side Israel. If Israel was like, you know, throwing a tactical nuclear

766
01:00:57,039 --> 01:01:00,039
blast on Gaz, I would agree
that we've gone. You know that we've

767
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,679
the whole debate is more complex,
but they're not doing that. They are

768
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:10,760
working within international law and they are
working to dismantle a terror network. So

769
01:01:12,199 --> 01:01:15,519
I don't know, and complexities and
how you address it are different than the

770
01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:19,480
sort of moral complexities of uh,
you know, black and white, right

771
01:01:19,519 --> 01:01:24,800
and wrong. The Afghanistan point is
an interesting one because Hamas. This is

772
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:30,360
a point that Left has been making
all week at various times. Israel and

773
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:37,079
these sort of factional conflicts of the
history of Hamas has made decisions not entirely

774
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:42,360
unlike decisions the United States made when
it came to the Mujahadeen and in the

775
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,960
Cold War. And that's a complexity
of the kind of answer, you know,

776
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:52,360
what are the sort of right and
wrong ways to address the situation.

777
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:58,079
And it seems to me that is
a very real challenge for Israel going forward

778
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,440
in a pretty again, correct me
if I'm wrong on this a pretty divided

779
01:02:01,719 --> 01:02:07,599
time in Israeli politics, not that
everybody isn't united now, but on that

780
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:13,360
question of how to proceed a pretty
divided politically charged time in Israeli politics and

781
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,079
where to go from here? There
are there lessons from history, David,

782
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:22,079
you think should be paid close attention
to going forward for Israel. Are you

783
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:28,639
talking about like how Israel supported Hamas? Has been all yeah, they have

784
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:32,960
been all over Twitter this week talking
about Yeah, there's Medi Hassan article that

785
01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,119
from a couple years ago that's been
super viral about how, yeah, Israel

786
01:02:37,239 --> 01:02:42,280
did offer support and thought that if
they supported Hamas against other kind of factions

787
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,679
in the contested territory that maybe that
would turn out better for them. Is

788
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:52,079
Hasani American citizen. Do you know
it's a great question. I actually don't

789
01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:58,119
know, because it's just interesting because
he worked for Qatar's terror network and then

790
01:02:58,159 --> 01:03:02,400
came over here. Also, by
the way, has a problem on the

791
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:10,039
left that has never addressed about his
Islamic views on sexuality and as a he

792
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:15,000
called gay people, animals or cows
and pigs. I forget exactly what cattle

793
01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:16,760
maybe, And that actually reminds me. I want to tell a quick anecdote.

794
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:21,239
When I was a student at gw
one of the reasons I originally got

795
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,559
hired by Young America's Foundation out of
college is that our chapter was asked our

796
01:03:24,639 --> 01:03:30,000
YAFF chapter in college was asked by
the student newspaper whether we would support a

797
01:03:30,039 --> 01:03:37,760
religious exemption to some stupid bill the
student association passed about mandatory pronoun sensitivity training

798
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,039
for the leaders of student groups.
I answered the phone, told the newspaper,

799
01:03:42,199 --> 01:03:44,239
like, I guess so I think
I said yes, Like it doesn't

800
01:03:44,239 --> 01:03:51,760
sound very tolerant of other people's beliefs. The student the LGBT group on campus

801
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:57,800
is called Allied and Pride put out
a statement saying that GWAF had committed a

802
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,559
hate crime, and there was somebody
who said, forget the context of it,

803
01:04:00,599 --> 01:04:03,320
that we were worse than isis.
Like, I don't remember if it

804
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,079
was actually in that statement or if
it was something that one of the student

805
01:04:06,199 --> 01:04:11,880
leaders said, but it came from
like somebody on the side of pronouns and

806
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,079
sensitivity training. And that is how
completely poisoned the mind, Like when people

807
01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:20,039
are looking at college campuses right now
and sort of slack jawed and marveling at

808
01:04:20,079 --> 01:04:25,480
how people can behave this way.
That's how completely poisoned their minds are.

809
01:04:25,519 --> 01:04:29,960
That people who oppose mandatory pronoun and
sensitivity trainings are worse than isis, which

810
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,719
at the time twenty fifteen was literally
like throwing gay people off of bridges.

811
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:38,119
Yeah, isis is pretty bad.
I think worse than isis is amazing.

812
01:04:38,159 --> 01:04:45,119
It's really bad. Yeah, listen, it's just hordes of credulous virtue signalers

813
01:04:45,159 --> 01:04:49,760
who don't you know, who don't
who are you know, perfunctorially say things

814
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:55,360
that sound good to the year,
but they don't. They're not thinkers and

815
01:04:55,480 --> 01:05:01,440
not critical thinkers. And you know, it's just look at these college campuses.

816
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,480
It's a massive, massive problem.
These people are going to be running

817
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:11,159
things soon. You know, Harvard
law students who signed pro Hamas statements are

818
01:05:11,199 --> 01:05:15,119
going to be running institutions one day. And I think a lot of these

819
01:05:15,159 --> 01:05:18,599
people are already running institutions. If
you look at their reactions, it's just

820
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:25,840
sort of incrementally becoming worse and worse. Just on the Hamas point, yeah,

821
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:32,559
I mean countries make mistakes. At
one point, you know, Israeli's

822
01:05:32,639 --> 01:05:36,639
helped hamast as a counterbalance to the
PLO which was in power then, and

823
01:05:36,639 --> 01:05:41,800
that was a mistake. But the
idea that now anything Hamas does is their

824
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,440
fault, Like they're forcing a million
people to be involved in Hamas stuff there,

825
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:49,760
you know, it's nuts. Yes, Reagan helped wanted to undermine the

826
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:55,679
Soviet invasion of Afghanistan because he saw
the world through his prism at the time,

827
01:05:55,719 --> 01:05:59,000
and the most dangerous force in the
world was the Soviet Union, which

828
01:05:59,039 --> 01:06:02,400
I think was a you know,
good analysis. Did it work out well,

829
01:06:02,519 --> 01:06:06,039
probably not. I mean to some
extent it did because the Soviets were

830
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:13,119
embarrassed and the Afghanistan War actually probably
had a lot to do with their problems

831
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:16,440
that led to the fall of the
Soviet Empire. So yeah, we have

832
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,480
to be careful when we, you
know, we invade Iraq, we empower

833
01:06:20,519 --> 01:06:25,719
Iran, right, So there are
a lot of Yeah, It's why I

834
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,920
don't really have any kind of ideological
outlook when it comes to foreign policy.

835
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:35,840
I think every situation is different.
It calls for different ideas and you know,

836
01:06:36,119 --> 01:06:42,440
and and different reactions. So I
think that's important. But the prevailing

837
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,800
notion of civilization should be that we
do what's best for the United States,

838
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,280
and under that should be we do
what's best for to help people who are

839
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:53,280
on the right side of civilization.
It seems pretty civil, you know,

840
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,559
as long as it doesn't hurt our
country. It seems pretty pretty simple in

841
01:06:57,559 --> 01:07:00,480
some ways. And maybe I'm just
looking at it too simplistically, but yeah,

842
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,679
this Helmus thing is just I wish
I could come up with a good

843
01:07:03,719 --> 01:07:09,840
analogy. It's just like victim blaming
basically, you know, and uh,

844
01:07:10,159 --> 01:07:13,519
that's what guys like Mactaisan are about. I mean, he is he is,

845
01:07:13,719 --> 01:07:17,039
he is a host. So you
have these Prohamas people all over colleges,

846
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:23,559
you have them hosting television shows on
MSNBC. You have them, you

847
01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:29,199
know, in Congress, you have
them throughout probably the State Department in places

848
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:34,320
like that. You have them in
uh, bolstered by Katari money or whatever,

849
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:39,679
in supposed think tanks, including Brookings, which used to take plenty of

850
01:07:39,679 --> 01:07:42,760
money from Qatar. I think they
stopped maybe a few years ago. I

851
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,519
forget got hit with a I think
it was just last year. They just

852
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:49,119
got hit with a their former president
a big Farah charge over not disclosing lobbying

853
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:54,920
path of cutter they have. You
know, these the all the experts there

854
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,519
are many of the experts you know
were part of the peace process in the

855
01:07:57,559 --> 01:08:00,119
past that failed miserably, that cost
so many lives. And they're still on

856
01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:04,599
you know, CNN and NBC lecturing
everyone on how Israel should react. And

857
01:08:04,639 --> 01:08:09,119
you brought up Israel before and the
internal politics there. The best way to

858
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:12,559
destroy Israel, and every Israeli knows
this is to just leave Israel alone.

859
01:08:12,599 --> 01:08:15,360
If you leave it alone for like
ten years, it won't probably not exist,

860
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:19,000
there will be a civil war.
They Israeli politics is bananas. Anyone

861
01:08:19,079 --> 01:08:24,239
who has lived there or pays attention
would know that. But every time you

862
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:28,399
do something like this, the country
comes together immediately. It's a small place.

863
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,279
When you have a thousand, five
hundred deaths or whatever it is right

864
01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:34,600
now, that touches virtually everyone in
the country in some way, in a

865
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,720
personal way, they come together.
They have no choice when they People don't

866
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:44,279
realize when you mobilize in Israel,
that means like a huge the economy shuts

867
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:46,760
down. The country is everyone is
part of that. That is a huge,

868
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:53,680
uh you know, you know,
expense of energy like and of material

869
01:08:54,319 --> 01:08:58,640
and of you know, willpower.
So they come together, and this is

870
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,279
probably going to bring Israel together.
I don't know where the government goes because

871
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:04,840
I think it's going to be difficult
for Nettagne who to sort of something like

872
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:10,720
this. This isn't like, you
know, some argument over the judiciary.

873
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,159
This is an existential threat that he
allowed to happen. Lots of people died,

874
01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:18,640
so he may not survive. But
I don't know that that means the

875
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,640
center left is going to rise.
I think maybe you're even going to go

876
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:26,920
farther to the right. You cannot
have things like this happen, and I

877
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,600
just don't think the citizens there are
going to stand for it. Any final

878
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,000
thoughts. David Harsani No, I
mean, I I think, like I

879
01:09:35,039 --> 01:09:39,560
said, I'm more affected by this
than I have been since anything since,

880
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:43,760
you know, any events since nine
to eleven. It was nice to hear

881
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,399
Joe Biden's speech, for instance.
I'm kind of heartened a little bit by

882
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:51,920
some of the support, you know, but I'm also really concerned by mostly

883
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,680
on the left, but some in
some circles on the right as well.

884
01:09:55,720 --> 01:10:01,079
Where you have you know, historical
literates, you know, preaching to the

885
01:10:01,319 --> 01:10:09,640
to the credulous Twitter, you know
mob and you know, just just having

886
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,880
people not understand the situation and being
not just historically unclear about it, but

887
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,000
morally unclear about it. And I
think that's a problem, but hopefully it

888
01:10:16,079 --> 01:10:19,840
isn't as bad as it. Hopefully
that the social media is making, you

889
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:25,720
know, amplifying it in a way
that overstates how, you know, how

890
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:30,800
many people think this way. I
think that was a really rude and passive

891
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:35,920
aggressive way to take a shot at
Andrew Tate David who hooked israel socialist vaccine

892
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:43,199
policy in making this argument kind of
in favor for Hamas this week. Yeah,

893
01:10:43,199 --> 01:10:45,920
I don't want to start this argument
with you or anything. It's not

894
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:47,800
about you at all or not cons
but I am a little concerned by some

895
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,880
of the people who snuck into the
conservative I wouldn't say movement, but are

896
01:10:53,119 --> 01:10:57,159
like or now are thought of his
being on the right, who are just

897
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:01,199
insanely crazy people who need to be
you know, we need another like Bircher

898
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:09,239
cleansing or whatever, and that guy's
one of them. Sorry, I was

899
01:11:09,239 --> 01:11:15,760
actually going to say off that final
thought that it is genuinely I think it

900
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:21,880
speaks to if you look at,
for instance, Candice Owens the way that

901
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:27,520
she's reacted, or just other people. And I'm thinking even of like really

902
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:31,920
well intentioned people on the kind of
new right who have been very critical of

903
01:11:32,039 --> 01:11:39,960
Ukraine policy and sort of America first
and all of that. It is interesting

904
01:11:40,039 --> 01:11:43,640
because I do think for some young
people, I always try to imagine,

905
01:11:44,039 --> 01:11:47,640
you know, being eighteen, being
seventeen and sort of on the right and

906
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:56,479
thinking through these issues in the atmosphere, the digital atmosphere, the media atmosphere

907
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,960
of today, and I just want
to say that at least for young people,

908
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,279
I do genuinely think it is very
very difficult for them to sift through

909
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:10,159
you know, fact and fiction right
from wrong and get to know the bottom

910
01:12:10,239 --> 01:12:12,880
of it. And actually it's partially
one why I wanted to have this conversation

911
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:18,079
with you, David, to hopefully
add some intellectual fuel and to be helpful

912
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:23,000
on those questions, because I think
it is genuinely very difficult to get good

913
01:12:24,079 --> 01:12:27,920
history and good information right now,
because it is true, you know,

914
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:33,199
we are seeing horrific scenes of war
come out of these areas, come out

915
01:12:33,199 --> 01:12:40,760
of Gaza, and I think that
is really it has this kind of effect

916
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:47,279
of adding the illusion of moral ambiguity
if you are sort of untethered from the

917
01:12:47,359 --> 01:12:51,319
roots of the conflict. Yeah,
I think, you know, part of

918
01:12:51,359 --> 01:12:56,159
it is that the Holocaust or the
Soviet Union, at least my generation was

919
01:12:56,199 --> 01:13:00,960
still fresh in people's memories. You
knew people who know, my dad was

920
01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:03,479
there, you know, like so
you knew people, your grandparents whatever,

921
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:09,000
they were around, and it was
something that was still tangible in a weird

922
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,600
way that it's not now. And
I think on the right, the new

923
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,399
right, you have people who are
reflexively anti war, and I get that,

924
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:20,199
and they're always they always think that, I don't know, they're reflexively

925
01:13:20,279 --> 01:13:25,760
skeptical of anything anyone you know,
in power tells them, and they have

926
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:31,640
this weird I don't know, Uh, I would say that they're they're they're

927
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:36,640
open to some conspiractorial ideas that they
should not be open to, simply because

928
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:42,479
it works maybe fits in with their
broader view worldview, which has to do

929
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,520
Ukraine and all that stuff. So
yeah, I mean, it's bothersome to

930
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:50,000
me, but it is difficult to
fight against because of you know, in

931
01:13:50,039 --> 01:13:57,760
part because of so much of the
lying and failures of the institutions. We

932
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,399
do have to be clear, to
have of moral clarity, you know,

933
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:05,920
on things. And I think more
more fresh in their mind probably is Iraq

934
01:14:06,159 --> 01:14:11,279
or you know, that sort of
thing, and to them this looks and

935
01:14:11,399 --> 01:14:16,800
feels the same way. But I
should just note that there is Israel doesn't

936
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:20,399
need the United States to fight Hamas. I mean, they need they probably

937
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:26,239
need help, financial help and whatever. But it's not like the United States

938
01:14:26,279 --> 01:14:30,319
is going to get into war with
Isabella. I mean, United States could

939
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:31,880
or invY, you know, I
hear like this is the new Iraq,

940
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,920
like we're going to land forces in
Iran. That's there's no zero appetite for

941
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:40,479
that. No one wants that.
I think what the United States does is

942
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:44,520
provide cover for Israel to do what
it needs to do. Hopefully usually that

943
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,920
only lasts a little while in the
way that Israel wants. But we'll see

944
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:51,000
this time if it's different. But
anyway, you know, that's I think

945
01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:58,039
those are some of the reasons fueling
that that kind of anti Israel. Yeah,

946
01:14:58,039 --> 01:15:00,840
I believe, yeah, And this
is not so this is I'm not

947
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:02,720
commenting on any of our young staffers. That a rack point is interesting because

948
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:08,640
I was thinking back to the post
or the podcast that we published on September

949
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,800
eleventh this year, talking to are
you know, mid twenties, some younger

950
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,439
than that writers about you know,
they don't remember nine to eleven, they

951
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:21,000
don't remember the country before nine to
eleven, and about their sort of what

952
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:24,359
it was like to kind of grow
up in the shadow of nine to eleven,

953
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:28,000
even though they don't kind of remember
what it was, And there is

954
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:33,439
just this intense cynicism. It's just
is such an intense cynicism on the left

955
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:39,960
and on the right about America's moral
standing, especially you know, they brought

956
01:15:40,039 --> 01:15:45,520
up the kind of Patriot Act infrastructure
that was created in the wake of nine

957
01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:47,640
to eleven, all of the Americans
who were sent overseas to fight in Iraq

958
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:51,680
and Afghanistan after nine to eleven,
with the benefit of hindsight that we now

959
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:58,479
know and probably should have known then, in ways that were miscalculated, wildly

960
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:02,119
miscalculated, And that has fed a
really deep cynicism. And I have nothing

961
01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:05,039
but faith in our young staffers.
They're they're great, They've been great this

962
01:16:05,079 --> 01:16:10,000
week. But what I'm saying is
I think that cynicism, where it exists

963
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:15,479
in other young people on the left
and the right, is probably something that

964
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:19,399
makes it easier for people to,
you know, just kind of throw their

965
01:16:19,399 --> 01:16:26,159
hands up in the air and you
say that this is all morally ambiguous sense.

966
01:16:26,159 --> 01:16:28,359
You're trying to end this podcast,
but I'm going to keep going with

967
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:34,560
I think I think a lot of
that skepticism manifests in this hair. I'm

968
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:38,840
not talking about our staff, I'm
talking about just in general manifest its kind

969
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,479
of a anti this idea that used
to be prevalent on the fringe left in

970
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,840
colleges when I was younger, that
the United States is no better than the

971
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,760
Soviet Union and we're no better than
Russia. We're no better because we have

972
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:56,680
this injustice and that injustice. And
you cobble together a few and then you

973
01:16:56,720 --> 01:16:59,520
start talking about the United States like
you're living in Nazi Germany. Well,

974
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,600
you know or not, we're having
this podcast. A lot of people get

975
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,199
to write what they believe. I'm
not saying that we don't have a lot

976
01:17:05,239 --> 01:17:10,399
of really serious problems here, but
sometimes I think, you know, a

977
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:14,720
sort of world perspective, a historical
perspective, is really missing. This is

978
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,319
not the Patriot Act. I was
against from the moment it was written.

979
01:17:17,359 --> 01:17:20,560
But it is not the first time
we've done this sort of thing. We

980
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,720
did it in World War One,
we did it in World War Two,

981
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:26,359
we did it during the Civil War, we did it during right after the

982
01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:32,039
Revolutionary War. There's a history of
the overreaction in the United States. And

983
01:17:32,119 --> 01:17:34,239
yeah, I guess if you didn't
live through nine to eleven, you don't

984
01:17:34,279 --> 01:17:41,880
really understand what a just earth shattering
event it was for most Americans and changed

985
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,640
the world forever. But that should
not I mean, I think maybe it's

986
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:50,359
an educational problem because schools maybe don't
I'm not speaking about nine to eleven specifically,

987
01:17:50,359 --> 01:17:55,399
but don't give a good historical overview
of the world. Are scared to

988
01:17:55,479 --> 01:18:00,680
take moral stands when talking about the
world. It's like the whole Genous Day

989
01:18:00,199 --> 01:18:06,039
Columbus Day debate, Like, you
know, just because indigenous people were conquered

990
01:18:06,079 --> 01:18:10,279
doesn't mean they were more moral than
Columbus for instance. You know, it's

991
01:18:10,319 --> 01:18:14,000
the same thing when you talk about
how mas in Israel. So it all

992
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:15,840
kind of intertwines, if that makes
any sense. But of course, as

993
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:20,520
we talked about earlier, they're also
holding them to these standards, historically better

994
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:25,960
standards. You know, I both
agree that we're you know, you've written

995
01:18:26,039 --> 01:18:30,279
a book about this. By the
way, that a mus killed twenty seven

996
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:33,279
Americans that we know of so far, twenty seven Americans were killed by how

997
01:18:33,319 --> 01:18:36,800
mamas they hold hostages who are Americans, Like, I don't feel like the

998
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:41,600
reaction we're having would be the same
as if twenty seven Americans were killed by

999
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,119
someone in France, or someone in
Germany or someone in Canada, you know.

1000
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:47,720
And to me, that also has
something to do with the idea,

1001
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,000
well, these people were in Israel, They're probably have dual citizenship, they're

1002
01:18:51,039 --> 01:18:54,600
you know, they're part of this, you know what's going on. No,

1003
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,039
they're not part of anything. Many
of those Americans were probably maybe many

1004
01:18:58,079 --> 01:19:00,239
of them were hard left wingers who
thought that pas that Gaza deserved to be

1005
01:19:00,279 --> 01:19:01,920
a state, you know what I
mean, Like, you don't even know

1006
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,399
what they were thinking. These are
civilians who were killed. So that whole

1007
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:11,680
aspect of it also annoys me that
people talk about this without mentioning that Americans

1008
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:16,199
were killed, American citizens and we
should be Really that involves us now in

1009
01:19:16,239 --> 01:19:19,199
a way that it wouldn't you know
if there hadn't been an American citizens.

1010
01:19:19,199 --> 01:19:23,239
So I think that's an important aspect
for people to remember as well. Yeah,

1011
01:19:23,239 --> 01:19:25,880
it's so helpful, David, and
such a good reminder because I think

1012
01:19:26,039 --> 01:19:29,560
there is an impulse, and it's
the ben Roads impulse, the freshman dorm

1013
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,760
impulse to kind of learn some very
inconvenient facts about America's history, in the

1014
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:38,720
West's history, and you know,
in the act of kind of proving you

1015
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,239
know these things that a lot of
people don't know, and a lot of

1016
01:19:41,279 --> 01:19:44,319
people probably should know. People should
know the history of the FBI and the

1017
01:19:44,319 --> 01:19:47,880
CIA a lot more than they do, or various conflicts and absolutely, but

1018
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:51,680
it's that sort of impulse as soon
as you know it to act as though

1019
01:19:53,039 --> 01:19:58,079
you know it's powerfully invalidates the moral
high ground. And part of that is

1020
01:19:58,159 --> 01:20:01,199
just because it's kind of fun to
prove that you know that information, and

1021
01:20:01,239 --> 01:20:03,359
it makes you feel like you're in
on a secret that other people aren't.

1022
01:20:04,359 --> 01:20:09,079
It's a very june to think of
America as better than anyone else, you

1023
01:20:09,119 --> 01:20:14,199
know. So, you know,
even though we are I mean, I'm

1024
01:20:14,239 --> 01:20:16,880
just I'm sorry, we are I
always you know what book Euro trash.

1025
01:20:17,159 --> 01:20:20,399
Yeah, no, we are.
I mean we are, and I don't

1026
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,680
packs americanas over right, but we
did bring a kind of peace to the

1027
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:28,560
world that wasn't around. I don't
know if people know this, but there

1028
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:31,600
have far fewer conflicts in the world
now than there used to be. Essentially,

1029
01:20:32,119 --> 01:20:36,479
the world was at war until the
nineteen fifty as the world was in

1030
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:41,720
a constant state of conflict almost all
the time, all over Europe, all

1031
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:45,800
over Asia. I'm not saying that
we've done everything right. We certainly haven't.

1032
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:48,399
We're human beings, and Israelis are
human beings. They make mistakes,

1033
01:20:48,399 --> 01:20:55,199
they're bad people sometimes involved in that. But I think that our Christian you

1034
01:20:55,239 --> 01:20:58,800
know, we interviewed Tom Holland,
but I think he's right. A Christian

1035
01:20:59,319 --> 01:21:03,079
perspective has manifested in a far more
moral outlook. And we have to stop

1036
01:21:03,119 --> 01:21:08,479
being scared to say that that outlook
on the world is better than the alternative.

1037
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:13,439
And in the left in this country
and some on the right don't believe

1038
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:16,119
that that's true. And I think
this is the fight for civilization and it's

1039
01:21:16,159 --> 01:21:19,279
worth, you know, in the
long run, and it's worth worth saying

1040
01:21:19,279 --> 01:21:21,520
it out loud and not being scared
to say it. And even though,

1041
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:25,840
can you imagine being on a college
campus like Harvard today and having to say

1042
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:29,159
something like that or Columbia, I
bet you it's pretty tough. Mm hmmm.

1043
01:21:30,359 --> 01:21:33,000
I'm glad that you brought up Holland
because his book basically starts with the

1044
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:36,560
anecdotes on romans and babies, and
a lot of the conversation this week has

1045
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:44,359
been centered on Hamas and babies.
And exactly Hamas's treatment of babies is actually

1046
01:21:44,479 --> 01:21:47,720
as shocking to the conscience as it
is us today. Is that is because

1047
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:54,279
we are benefactors of the liberal world, and in a way that you know,

1048
01:21:54,399 --> 01:21:57,920
vast majority of people throughout human history
have not been right. I mean,

1049
01:21:57,920 --> 01:22:02,800
the Canaanites sacrifice babies, the Carthgian
sacrifice babies, the Spartans through them

1050
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:08,239
off cliff, you know, and
basically in what was eugenics, it was

1051
01:22:08,319 --> 01:22:13,720
Christianity that changed that equation for most
people. And then when you see barbarians

1052
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:17,119
right now killing babies, you understand
why the Christian outlook is the superior one.

1053
01:22:18,199 --> 01:22:21,399
That's a good place to leave it. David Harsani belave it on that

1054
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:27,319
friendly note. Yeah, that happened
the obviously the author of euro Trash.

1055
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:30,760
You should check out Euro Trash.
That was a great book. David I

1056
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:35,399
was the co host of Your Wrong
and senior editor at The Federalist. Follow

1057
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:42,520
Follow Follow David if you aren't already, follow him for some much helpful insight

1058
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,840
perspective in the days that come.
Harsani, hope you have a good weekend.

1059
01:22:45,279 --> 01:22:48,960
You too, Thank you. Of
course you've been listening to another edition

1060
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:53,000
of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm
Emily Dashinski, culture editor here at The

1061
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:56,119
Federalist. Will be back soon with
more. Until then, the lovers of

1062
01:22:56,159 --> 01:23:05,920
freedom and anxious for the friends.
I heard the fame voice, the reason,

1063
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:15,880
and then it faded away. M
hm