1 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,079 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jashinski, 2 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,760 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,519 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:31,519 Make sure to subscribe where every download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:33,920 our website as well. If you want to support our work, you can 6 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,600 go over to the Federalist dot com sign up. There. We're joined again 7 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,200 by one of our very favorite guests, and this time in person, for 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,320 the first time in person. Actually, that would be Chris Fenton. He's 9 00:00:43,359 --> 00:00:47,840 the author of Feeding the Dragon, Hollywood All Around Hollywood Guy, Chris, 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,960 That's what I'm going to go with here. Well, I like that introduction, 11 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:55,560 and it's so amazing being at the Federalist headquarters here. There's a lot 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,240 of buzz going on. I see a lot of people doing a lot of 13 00:00:58,479 --> 00:01:02,840 important things. It brings a whole new life to doing this podcast. I 14 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,400 gotta say, Yeah, it's fun. We are I don't want to docs 15 00:01:06,519 --> 00:01:08,200 us, but we are so close to a liquor store, and so when 16 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:11,480 I told Chris, you know how to kind of find the office, I 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:17,159 got off a line bike and Chris was just outside a liquor store like a 18 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:21,079 person who you know, needed a drink. Well, you allowed me to 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,120 come in with the brown bag around it, so that makes it a lot 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,200 more tolerable for sure. Yeah, you're back to your surfer days now, 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,480 loitering with the brown bag. I did notice they have a lot of pot 22 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,680 stores nowadays in Washington, d C. I've been coming a long time, 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,480 but the smell is pretty much everywhere. Everyone says that it's Yeah, it's 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,239 been legals since I think I was in college, so it's I'm used to 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,239 it. But well here from California, Wow, legalizednse I was in college, 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,280 would mean that's going way back. So yeah, I guess it has 27 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:53,079 been in what in the last ten years or something. Yeah, but the 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,400 stores are everywhere, Yeah, they really are. They're not like the Apple 29 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:00,959 stores that you'll get in like Denver, but they're they're starting to proliferate. 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,200 The crazy part is I saw McConnell like smoking a point right behind the Senate. 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,599 He does haunt this part of the city, so you never know where 32 00:02:08,599 --> 00:02:13,240 you said mentioned McConnell. Chris, of course, is a China expert he 33 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,840 does so much work in the space. He's been in basically constant communication. 34 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,439 You can correct me if I'm wrong with Mike Gallagher and all of his team 35 00:02:21,479 --> 00:02:24,439 over at the Select Committee on China, Chris, maybe if we could just 36 00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:29,520 start actually by you giving us some insight. What's your read on all of 37 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,120 the work that Congressman Gallagher is doing with that Select Committee. Well, a 38 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:37,479 good thing is that it's not just Congressman Gallagher, who's obviously a Republican from 39 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,639 Wisconsin who I personally believe should be running for president in twenty twenty eight. 40 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,560 I think he is an absolutely amazing effective, you know, legislator, and 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:53,840 I think he's really really interestingly bipartisan in certain ways and always thinks about things 42 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,639 in a very constructive manner. But what's fantastic is he's made a bipartisan committee 43 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,280 out of this Select Committee on China. He calls it the Select Committee on 44 00:03:02,319 --> 00:03:08,960 the CCP. And Krishna Morphy, who's the cops are coming to get mcconnoff 45 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:14,080 or smoking's blunt? Oh my god, I think Fetterman was in the back. 46 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,520 Oh my god, watch out. No, it's really inspiring to see 47 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,039 actually a bipartisan effort to tackle I think what is really America's greatest challenge from 48 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,960 the outside, which is China. He looks at it as if China is 49 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,400 a strong rival, not necessarily an enemy that's going to try to take over 50 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:38,840 the country, but as a rival. One of the processes that I think 51 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,479 they're always trying to process and figure out how to move forward is how do 52 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,120 we play our a game against China. How do we create the ground rules, 53 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,280 the borders of what capitalism can do when it comes to China. What 54 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:59,120 do we do on a policy level that allows for engagement, allows for this 55 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,560 ability to have void a kinetic conflict or a war, yet also protects American 56 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:10,479 interests, whether that's values or principles that make us Americans, or whether it's 57 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,120 national security issues or anything in between. So it's constructive, it's bipartisan, 58 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:17,879 and they're making a lot of noise, which is fantastic. Well, let's 59 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:21,720 start on that question of soft power, because right now, again the cops, 60 00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:26,920 they're just they're looking for someone. I guess it's maybe it's wow. 61 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,319 Now we've got a fire truck involved. That's Capitol Hill. Probably not that 62 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,439 different from downtown Los Angeles these days. Yeah, we have quite a bit 63 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,759 of sirens. Well, the soft power question that was really relevant to obviously 64 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,040 your work. Folks will remember you've been on the show many times talking about 65 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,000 the work you did in Hollywood to sort of first broken and understanding with business 66 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:56,399 interests and cinema interests in China, and at the time you really believed at 67 00:04:56,439 --> 00:05:03,519 that moment this exchange of commerce, this exchange of culture would have a powerful 68 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:09,120 soft power effect on our relationship between the US and China. That obviously started 69 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,560 to fray and you started to look at things a little bit differently. I'm 70 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,279 going to set hard power side for just a second as we teeter on the 71 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:17,279 brink of World War three, because that's a kind of different can of worms. 72 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:20,319 I know they're connected, but on that soft power front right now, 73 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,720 everything you were just talking about, when it comes to bipartisanship, when it 74 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,120 comes to not entirely severing the relationship and separating the Chinese people from the Chinese 75 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:34,040 government, where do you stand as you look at the potential for those exchanges 76 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:39,399 right now? Well, it's a really good question, because I was actually 77 00:05:39,399 --> 00:05:43,399 talking to Congressom Gallagher about this yesterday. One of the hard parts about this 78 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,000 idea of soft powers, trying to get the American public to understand how nefarious 79 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,639 or dangerous it actually can be, because when you think about it, who 80 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:57,879 really cares if the Taiwanese patch is taken off of Maverick's jacket in Top Gun? 81 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,240 Or who cares whether Barbie has the nine ash line in it? Or 82 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:08,000 who cares whether there's like obvious propaganda that's pitching a particular type of story inside 83 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,240 of China inside a large movie, or or the fact that you can't have 84 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,040 a Chinese villain in a in a James Bond movie or in a Born Supremacy 85 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:17,160 movie. We always go back to the whole Cold War era. We're in 86 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:21,279 Top Gun. Actually, yeah, well Top Gun is interesting because we don't 87 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:27,160 even know what the country was that. Yeah, it was totally nebulous and 88 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,800 they made it well except at snow. You know, some people are like, 89 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,519 it's Iran. I was like, yeah, but there was a lot 90 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,480 of snow right next to the water. I don't think that's you know, 91 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,759 it was just a weird thing to try to disguise what the enemy was was 92 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000 San Francisco. But what's what I find fascinating is that what's happening with Hollywood 93 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,480 in the way China's trying to whitewash. The way we can depict China in 94 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:59,000 movies and television is really powerful when you think about how you did, how 95 00:06:59,079 --> 00:07:03,240 you visualize certain things in your life. If somebody said to me, have 96 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:05,319 you ever been to Russia? No, I've never been to Russia. Well, 97 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,279 what do you think of Russia? How would you visualize it? I 98 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:15,160 would think about Cold War movies or Born Supremacy movies, or even Gorky Park. 99 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,240 That's what I would visualize is Russia because that's the only way I've seen 100 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:25,399 it portrayed. And when you think about the fact that China is trying to 101 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,720 always make sure they're portrayed a certain way in a movie, never shown to 102 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,879 have crime, never shown to have bad guys or villains, or if there's 103 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,759 something going awry in China, the bad guys always caught. It's a whitewashing 104 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:43,000 of who they are as a people and as a nation. And what it 105 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,120 does is it showcases the Chinese system of government only in a great way. 106 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:53,480 So if you extrapolate that from Hollywood, from the entertainment business, and you 107 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:58,000 bring it into any other industry, The same exact thing is happening that is 108 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,079 happening in Hollywood. And I'll give a couple of exampimples. Number one is, 109 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:07,079 if you're looking at an investment in China, you hire diligence firms to 110 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,680 diligencet asset the diligence at potential investment. You want to know what the risks 111 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,040 are, what the potential upside is. In China today, you are not 112 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:22,040 allowed to diligence and asset diligence and a potential investment vehicle and say anything bad 113 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:28,399 about it. And if you do, those diligence consultants will have their offices 114 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,559 rated and people will end up disappeared. They never want something bad said about 115 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:37,960 something in their financial industry. So if you have a financial firm or the 116 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:43,320 financial industry looking at something like that, it's almost the exact same problem that 117 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:46,519 Hollywood has, and you have the same thing. Say in the hotel business, 118 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,480 Marriott cannot show the country of Taiwan on their map on their website. 119 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:58,440 It has to be a China map with Taiwan designated as part of China. 120 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,240 The same thing for airlines, they have to do the same thing. You're 121 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,000 seeing this over and over again in every kind of industry where this whitewashing is 122 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,960 occurring in order to make the Chinese system look perfect. And if you do 123 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,519 that long enough, over time, when somebody says to say, my kids, 124 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,919 hey, how do you visualize China? Like if you ever been there? 125 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,320 They haven't been there, they'll go, oh, well, you know, 126 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,600 I've seen movies about Yeah, like it seems like people were really nice 127 00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:33,000 there. They don't really have crime, seems like stuff is really on the 128 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,200 up and up. Maybe I have a really good system. And then combine 129 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,159 that with the fact that China actually controls the most powerful social media app in 130 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,120 the country of the United States of America via TikTok, and you realize kids 131 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,960 like mine, who are sixteen and pretty much anybody under the age of thirty 132 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,559 five gets their news and information from TikTok. They're not only promoting the good 133 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,200 image of China, but anything that's bad that's happening in the United States of 134 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,120 America, they amplify. They put gasoline on, they light that fire as 135 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,960 big and strong as possible. So when you're comparing the two systems, whoa 136 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:18,320 China system of government seems to really have its act together. Whoa democracy here 137 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,840 in the United States is really messy. I don't know if I like it 138 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:26,600 that much. We first started talking, I think late twenty nineteen, and 139 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,799 at the time, TikTok was barely on my radar. I don't know if 140 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:31,720 it's on yours. At what point, Chris, did you start to realize 141 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,600 that TikTok was an enormously powerful force? And I'm curious, actually, as 142 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,519 somebody who started to see this happen with soft power and films, did you 143 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:46,000 recognize some of the same things happening with TikTok and some of the same sort 144 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:50,960 of intentionality coming from the CCP with TikTok. I think TikTok to me, 145 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:58,480 unfortunately became I became aware of it through my daughter, who really liked being 146 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:01,080 on TikTok, and in fact, we would catch her on it in the 147 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:05,919 late at night, sort of getting into that rabbit hole, and then some 148 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,960 of the questions she would ask about particular items of information or news that she 149 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:13,720 got on there, we would be like, where'd you get that idea from? 150 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:18,000 And we'd find out it was from TikTok. And then as I started 151 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,039 getting more involved in speaking out about China. Obviously, there were a lot 152 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,799 of different experts that would bring to my attention different things that bite dance in 153 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:31,080 TikTok we're doing in order to inflame problems that we had here in the United 154 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,639 States of America. And then I started getting brought up on Capitol Hill to 155 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,320 talk about it and more and more in depth. And I even joined a 156 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,120 think tank called Third Way here in the United here in Washington, d C. 157 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:50,120 In particular to advise on their cybersecurity policy and suggestions for Capitol Hill. 158 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:58,519 And what's really interesting about the argument on TikTok is that it started as a 159 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:05,360 day harvesting Where is that data stored problem? What's AI going to be doing 160 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,080 to use that information someday in China? Oh my god, they can spy 161 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:13,480 on us. For me, I never really thought of that as the number 162 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:20,279 one issue. I thought it was much more important to focus on the throttling 163 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:26,240 and amplification of news and information that helps Beijing out and hurts the United States, 164 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,600 because that's where I really saw the problem firsthand, particularly with my daughter, 165 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:33,919 their friends, all that kind of stuff. That's where it really seemed 166 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:41,559 that we had to focus our attention on and we've been constantly distracted from focusing 167 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:45,159 on TikTok and getting it banned from the United States of America. But what's 168 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,120 interesting is today, in the last week, we've started to see studies about 169 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:56,480 how much more the hashtags of free Palestine prohamas messaging is versus stand with Israel 170 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,960 hashtags. It's almost like a ninety seven than to one difference, which is 171 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,639 unbelievable when you think about that. And what's interesting especially is I imagine with 172 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,600 young people in particular. We've seen stunning polls of how public opinion breaks down 173 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:16,200 with the youngest demos in America about Israel and Palestine. And some people have 174 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:22,120 been sort of shocked to see the level of opposition to Israel among younger Americans. 175 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,320 So to some extent, sure, I guess maybe some of those sentiments 176 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,879 are organic because they're coming from college classrooms, they're coming from YouTube. There 177 00:13:30,919 --> 00:13:35,039 are already a lot of sources of bad information. But what the CCP can 178 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:41,240 do is tweak and fuel things algorithmically. That poor gasoline on the fire. 179 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:45,399 And if you look at the extent of Russian interference in twenty sixteen, most 180 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,240 of that got into hoax territory. It is true, though, that they 181 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:56,799 put out these extremely divisive memes on BLM trans stuff to take existing American divisions 182 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,600 and amplify them, to make them more better, more divisive in a way 183 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,960 that poured gasoline on the fire that's already kind of simmering, raging in American 184 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,240 politics. I think that's one hundred percent the case. And I mean, 185 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:13,159 I have so many examples in my life where you feel like you're on such 186 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:18,240 a different level as far as perspective and opinion and belief with other people when 187 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,399 you're dealing on social media or just dealing through even texts or something, but 188 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,320 when you're actually sitting with them in person and you start talking about different opinions 189 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,120 and you start realizing, whoa we can respect to disagree here, we can 190 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:37,200 actually respect the fact that we're both Americans and we can have different opinions and 191 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:39,879 there's nothing I can do to change yours and nothing you can do to change 192 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,480 mind, but we can have a conversation to try and then realize, well, 193 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,000 maybe we're not going to get anywhere. But that's what life is supposed 194 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,159 to be in the free world, is to have those those conversations and when 195 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:58,960 you see social media essentially take what's already a really toxic environment of people disagreeing 196 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,799 on social media platforms, and then you have a rival country or an enemy 197 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:09,159 country, whatever you want to label. China in particular, I'd like to 198 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,519 talk about Beijing being the issue, not China per se, but Beijing sees 199 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:18,000 that divisiveness and says, Okay, let's just keep sparking that up as much 200 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,399 as possible and really like those flames because they know the art of war, 201 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:30,360 and you divide your enemy, you win. 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Today, unlike 218 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:47,799 the digital dollar, precious metals just can't be manipulated with the click off a 219 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:53,000 button. Visit gold code dot com slash federalist. That's goldco dot com slash 220 00:16:53,120 --> 00:17:03,960 Federalist. The one thing that's been pretty interesting, also as the various documents 221 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,599 from Hunter Biden's dealings with CEFC and all of these interesting almost cinematic actually Chinese 222 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:18,880 business characters, has been the way that business works in China. It's totally 223 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,400 mysterious to me and so very different from how things work here actually, And 224 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,839 one other thing that sort of gave some insight into it is this lawsuit that 225 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,680 you're in Brolden right now with DMG, your former employer. But I was 226 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:37,000 reading some of the lawsuit and just the way that business is conducted seems so 227 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:44,720 completely radically different. Some in the entertainment press have actually cast the lawsuits almost 228 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:48,599 giving insight into that very question. How different is it? I mean when 229 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,960 you're looking at this stuff, what do people in the United States sort of 230 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,200 not realize about how companies like ByteDance, how some of these studios, how 231 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,440 they have to do business when they're in Well, when you're doing business in 232 00:18:02,519 --> 00:18:06,920 China, you always got to realize that the true master, the true owner 233 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,599 of anything that's operating there is Beijing. If Beijing wants something done or not 234 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:14,519 done, they're going to tell you, and you have to listen. There's 235 00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:17,839 there's just no doubt about that, because they do that right, they use 236 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,240 that power. They one hundred percent do that, and they one hundred percent 237 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,480 make sure you know there's ramifications if you don't do what they ask, whether 238 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:29,519 it's something that happens to your own family or something that happens to your friends 239 00:18:29,599 --> 00:18:34,079 or your extended you know, employee staff. They will make sure that you 240 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:40,119 know that this is something that needs to get done. It's a totalitarian dictatorship 241 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,160 when it comes down to it. The Chinese Counties Party definitely runs things over 242 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,119 there, and there's never really true capitalism. So if you know that the 243 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,319 other side always is beholden to that versus the contracts or to the shaking of 244 00:18:53,359 --> 00:19:00,519 hands or the word that's agreed to, then you start to really as wow, 245 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,200 you know, this is a lot riskier of a business environment than you 246 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,720 could ever expect, and that's what makes it really difficult. I just saw 247 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:14,680 Ken Griffin from Citadel put out some sort of statement about that investors need to 248 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,599 think about China more, they need to start putting more money to work in 249 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:22,559 that market, and I tweeted out that and just sort of said, well, 250 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,519 can you properly diligence any of these investments anymore? Because it seems you 251 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:33,119 can't. And if you can't properly diligence something, then you're just literally putting 252 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,839 money into things that have way more risk than you could ever imagine is actually 253 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,279 there, and you could actually see that money go to zero, and Kyle 254 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:48,319 Bass from him in capital who's been a huge opponent and a critic of the 255 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,839 Chinese system when it comes to what we would like it to be in terms 256 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,359 of capitalism. He's done lots of studies where even if you invested in say 257 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:03,000 the shenz En Indeck or in the Shanghai Index over the course of like the 258 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:08,799 last ten years, the returns there are practically zero versus almost any other market 259 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:12,720 in the world has given you great returns. Well, yeah, I actually 260 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:17,920 was going to ask you about that. Do you think this is because Ken 261 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,200 Griffin, I did see that. I found it very interesting for the reasons 262 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,839 that you mentioned, and also it seems to me contrary to where we are 263 00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:29,960 seeing some businesses going, and specifically about Hollywood. How do you assess the 264 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,880 state of Hollywood's relationship with China right now in twenty twenty three. It seems 265 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,200 to me like it's shifted dramatically. But I don't think that means necessarily there's 266 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,000 no interest there. You know, if things get moved back to the back 267 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:45,799 burner and you know you have a cooling of tensions again, what does it 268 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:51,559 look like. Well, Hollywood is an art meets commerce business. So if 269 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:55,960 you think about the commerce of how expensive making the art is, you always 270 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,640 have to look to different markets in different ways to create revenues. So Hollywood 271 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,960 will never shut their eyes to the fact that China could be a source of 272 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,720 great revenues and the ability to bring gravy to the returns of any given movie 273 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:15,880 or television series, etc. That's just the reality of it, because in 274 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,079 a capitalistic mentality, that's the way you have to look at every market. 275 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,599 When you look at just China itself and the way the behavior of that market 276 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,480 has been towards the entertainment business of late starting I would say in say twenty 277 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:37,000 nineteen, that's really where we saw the peak potential of movies made in Hollywood 278 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:40,640 performing at their ultimate best. I mean, in fact, the last Avengers 279 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:47,279 movie did a roughly seven hundred million dollars US in China alone, and if 280 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:52,720 you add up the totals of every movie that has been released that were Hollywood 281 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,119 titles in that market this year, it's less than what the Avengers made that 282 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,480 one single movie in twenty nineteen. So the potential of the market, or 283 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:06,240 at least the reality of the market today is way less than it has been 284 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,640 for the last decade. I mean, it's almost taking us back I would 285 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:15,119 say probably the twenty ten as far as the actual returns there, So the 286 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:22,319 catering and the cow taling to Beijing, that motivation to do that is definitely 287 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,079 less. But the motivation and ability to sort of say, you know what, 288 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,759 we're going to make a movie that we know is going to make Beijing 289 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:36,119 upset, that's not there. See that's really interesting because I was thinking about 290 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:41,279 this when you were talking earlier that China had what Wolf Warrior was at the 291 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:45,599 name of the movie, this like super high budget action movie that in the 292 00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:51,559 same way that we won't create any negative depictions of China and any action film, 293 00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:56,880 any film that deals with us are generally with jeopolitics, they will gladly 294 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,440 demonize Americans in these massive, high budget, it high gross it like these 295 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,519 projects that it seems like almost everyone in China goes out and seas they will 296 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:08,599 gladly put us in that role. While it seems like also maybe starting to 297 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,720 shut more of our films out of their market they had that quota system. 298 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:15,799 Where does that stand. Where does their sort of treatment of Americans in their 299 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:18,720 own movies stand, they've they've gotten a lot better at making their own movies. 300 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:26,079 Yeah, well they're they're making world class, world class, best in 301 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:32,200 class type of Hollywood style movies for their own market that are way more relevant 302 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,279 than anything Hollywood can do. For the Chinese people, we taught them extremely 303 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,960 well how to make world class movies. Now the movies, yeah, exactly. 304 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:48,640 That was part of that problem. But you know what's interesting is if 305 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,559 anybody listening actually reads my book or or or picks up sort of a summary 306 00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:56,359 about it, you'll realize a lot of us were doing what we thought we 307 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,119 needed to do that was actually in the best and of the interest of the 308 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,880 United States of America. We thought we were, you know, yes, 309 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,359 catering a bit to what Beijing needed in order for us to get access to 310 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,759 their massive consumer market. But in the process, every movie we got in 311 00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:17,759 there, any sports event we got in there, any music we got in 312 00:24:17,799 --> 00:24:22,160 there, any television we got in there, because it was cultural was coming 313 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,160 from the West. It was this idea that we were spreading the aspirational quality 314 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,200 of democracy inside a communist country, and eventually they would get more and more 315 00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:33,440 open and become more like us. Levis in East Germany exactly. And then 316 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,640 on top of it were David Hasselholme Levi's exactly. Yeah, there you go, 317 00:24:38,839 --> 00:24:44,359 dancing on the wall to one of those songs you would sing anyway. 318 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,160 On top of it, yeah, you had that higher calling of spreading democracy 319 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,839 in a communist country, but you also were creating GDP growth here in the 320 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,000 US. You were bringing revenues in from a market that before we never were 321 00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:00,799 able to do, and you're creating jobs here in the So there was a 322 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,079 lot of Wow, all we got to do is teach them how to fish, 323 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,079 to sell our fish, you know, to sell them our fish. 324 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,160 We didn't really think far ahead enough to go, oh, well, once 325 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,759 they learn how to fish, then are they gonna want our fish anymore? 326 00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:18,240 And that's being rins and repeated in every industry. We're seeing it in the 327 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:23,559 automotive business, even a lot of Musk and Tesla's seeing this problem. You're 328 00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:29,880 seeing it in the airline business because Boeing and Airbusts now have a big competitor 329 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,319 with a Chinese particular airline that's getting off the ground. You're seeing it everywhere. 330 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,480 They have made domestic competitors to some of the stuff that we were the 331 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:45,200 best in the world at and their consumers are turning towards their own product and 332 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,759 services so and shifting to hard power. This becomes especially relevant. I kind 333 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:52,720 of joked earlier about teetering on the brink of World War three, but it's 334 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:59,440 all too true in that you now have China allied with Putin. Essentially, 335 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,000 they just had that big meeting at the ten year anniversary of the Boulton Road 336 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,680 initiative, actually in Beijing. Putin made the effort and went to Beijing to 337 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,720 sort of kiss the ring, and that's a Netanyahu has kind of described I 338 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:17,599 Ron's relationship with Hezballah and Hamas as an access of evil. We've heard that 339 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,880 phrase before. It's really possible now. In fact, it was just talked 340 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,519 about on the Senate floor yesterday that the Ukraine and Israel conflicts the money has 341 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:30,400 to be tied together because in the words of Democrats, and I disagree with 342 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160 this, but this is the argument being made. It's a waving the white 343 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:40,400 flag to Putin if we tie these things, if we divorce these two sources 344 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,759 of funding, because the conflicts are about the same thing. It's about America 345 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,599 and American hegemony. And America being the sort of world policeman, but China 346 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:55,039 actually is involved in some of these conflicts as well. China when it comes 347 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,640 to Israel and Palestine, when it comes to the Middle East, they want 348 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,279 to play peace broker and in a way that you know, it probably cuts 349 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,640 against the West West's interests. So, Chris, as you followed the story 350 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,160 as somebody who's had conversations at at very high levels about things in the last 351 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:18,319 month, how serious is China's potential alliance not just with Putin, but potentially 352 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,279 it's alliances with Iran potentially as alliances with other people in the Middle East. 353 00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:30,119 How seriously is that affecting our relationship with China. Well, it's hard to 354 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:37,960 are these true friends, you know, like Russia and China are Putin and 355 00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:41,599 She buddy buddies that I think those are friends of convenience. And there's also 356 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,319 that enemy of the enemy is your friend type of scenario. Well, like 357 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,759 Naya who had tried to sort of cozy up to She, Yeah, well 358 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,279 there's a lot of there's a lot of dollars involved in trying to cozy up 359 00:27:55,319 --> 00:28:00,599 to she and cozy up to the China market. And if you look at 360 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:07,880 that. If you look at the Putin She relationship, it's probably opportunistic in 361 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:14,000 a large majority because of the amount of commerce that it can occur between those 362 00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:17,680 two countries, the fact that Russia is sanctioned, yet they need a lot 363 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,240 of stuff that China can provide them. Putin really needs that alliance to work, 364 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,640 and she quite frankly, would love anybody but the US to be reliant 365 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:33,319 on or to provide various goods and services too. So it's a it's a 366 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,400 beneficial relationship for both. It makes a lot of sense as long as there's 367 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,519 trade in commerce between the two. But I would argue if that wasn't there, 368 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,480 they probably wouldn't have much in common other than a border. If you 369 00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:52,319 yeah, and if you're looking at She and the way he looks at probably 370 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:56,119 a lot of these conflicts were embroiled in. I don't know if he's really 371 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,799 there's this argument that, well, if we give Putin what he wants in 372 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,079 Ukraine, and that's just going to prove to She that he can go into 373 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:07,759 Taiwan and we're not going to do anything about it. I would argue that 374 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:11,839 she actually would much rather us stay embroiled in the Ukrainian conflict allow us to 375 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:19,359 completely damage the amount of supply of arsenal and ammunition and various other things that 376 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,960 will deplete over the course of time by supplying the Ukrainians with as much military 377 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:30,799 power as they need, and that will just tee up a much easier opportunity 378 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:33,920 for him to take over Taiwan because they'll know that we'll look at what we 379 00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:38,400 have available and possibly go, wait a minute, is this really worth fighting 380 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,000 a war on the other side of the Pacific. On top of it, 381 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,960 it's also going to make our country very war weary, and the more war 382 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:52,920 weary we get, the less popular the idea of defending Taiwan is going to 383 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,680 be. I mean, most people don't even really understand the difference between China 384 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,599 and Taiwan and why Taiwan's so important to us, and why we need to 385 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,839 defend it, and why we don't recognize it in the US. I mean, 386 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,200 talk about a weird thing for the average person who's got plenty of other 387 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,759 stuff to worry about, going, wait a minute, Taiwan's not a country. 388 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,640 We don't recognize Taiwan as a country, yet we're going to defend it 389 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,960 as a country. It doesn't have embassies here. It only has this thing 390 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,160 called Techro, mainly because we can't recognize it as its own independent country. 391 00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:30,599 I don't understand what the heck Taiwan is, right, and that is going 392 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:36,759 to create a real problem if she makes a move on what he calls reunifying 393 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:44,079 China and bringing everybody back to the homeland, because the ability for politicians to 394 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,160 pull in the populace to support a war that they just completely for the most 395 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,079 part, don't understand is going to be very difficult. I was talking to 396 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:59,079 someone interesting on the left the other day who as someone whose name people recognize, 397 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:04,519 who said, she hasn't moved on Taiwan yet, and because you know, 398 00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:10,119 there would have been some opportune moments, in fact, this moment itself, 399 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:12,359 when we have not reshored the things that we need to reshore. We're 400 00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:17,079 sort of maybe halfway into the restoring of chips process, you know, two 401 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,519 to three years. We started that about a year ago. It takes about 402 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:23,680 two to three years to get some of those chip fabricating plants off the ground. 403 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,440 It's a really difficult thing to reshore. It's a highly technical thing. 404 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,839 So if he wanted to do it in a time when we would be desperate 405 00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:36,000 and basically have to defend Taiwan, wouldn't he have already done that. I 406 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,640 want to run that argument by you, Chris, what do you I'm not 407 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,240 saying it's right, I'm just saying that I thought that was there was something 408 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,640 interesting about that, because in a couple of years we probably will have reshored 409 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,400 some of this stuff and certainly not all of it. And the Ken Griffin 410 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,559 point is really valid too. What do you make of that? Well? 411 00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:56,720 I think one of the best strategies that could play out for him is the 412 00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:01,480 longer he waits before making a move maybe the better shot, better chance that 413 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:06,799 he can win a war without ever going to battle. And the reason I'm 414 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:10,440 saying that is if we stay embroiled, say in the Ukrainian Russian conflict, 415 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,759 for a long time, we get pulled into the Israeli conflict in a really 416 00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:22,559 sort of impactful way when it comes to our resources of the military, and 417 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:27,119 our country starts to get more and more war weary. He might realize he 418 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,680 can make a move on Taiwan and not ever have to deal with any sort 419 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:37,079 of Western alliance in taking over Taiwan, which is really I guess I don't 420 00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:45,200 want to be controversial saying that, but I understand the complexity of getting enough 421 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:51,960 American support around supporting Taiwan. And he's well aware that that is a complicated 422 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:57,400 issue too, And the longer he waits it probably plays more and more into 423 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,279 his hands to avoid a kinetic con flicked while also getting in the reward that 424 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:07,119 he is looking to do before he's done with his legacy. Bipartisanship on foreign 425 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:13,319 policy can sometimes make me nervous because, for example, there's definitely bipartisan sentiment 426 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,359 being shared when the Senate yesterday, as we were talking about, was saying 427 00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:22,039 that it's waving the white flag for on behalf of Ukraine, for Putin surrendering 428 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:27,880 to Putin to divorce Israel AID from Ukraine AID. It's called kind of the 429 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,920 blob, and it's definitely bipartisan. But at the same time, I know 430 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:37,200 some of what Congressman Gallagher has been doing has been bipartisan and has been entirely 431 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:43,160 appropriate and sort of positive. Chris, in your dealings with people here in 432 00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:45,640 Washington, as you've gotten more and more involved in this issue, are you 433 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,319 feeling optimistic that the right steps are going to be taken and that this issue 434 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:55,839 isn't going to be sort of appropriated by malign interests even here in the United 435 00:33:55,839 --> 00:34:00,319 States. Are you feeling like we're taking some steps in the right. I 436 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:07,679 think Gallagher and Krysta Morphy are making people more aware of how complicated that Taiwan 437 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:14,760 situation could be if Beijing makes a move. They did wargames recently up in 438 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,559 New York City. Actually, the Council on Foreign Relations, which is usually 439 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,559 has been very dubvish I'm a member of it, has gotten a much more 440 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:28,599 hawkish and much more I think practical in terms of how they look at China. 441 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,199 And they actually hosted the committee there for various panels and also behind closed 442 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,079 doors meetings. One of those was actually war gaming out what happens if China 443 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:42,039 makes a move on Taiwan, and I think almost in every instance we realized 444 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:46,480 we just didn't have the military might in order to get to get China to 445 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,079 back off and retreat. It actually was sort of a depressing outcome. We 446 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:57,400 also need to keep in mind that there's going to be a reluctance of our 447 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,639 allies in that region to jump into it too. I mean, there's a 448 00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:04,360 lot of motivations for them to do it, but also they have a lot 449 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:10,199 at stake by taking that risk fighting on behalf of the Taiwanese and then dealing 450 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,000 with the wrath of China to their own nations and the safety of their own 451 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:22,920 people being in eyeshot of where the PRC shores are, so, you know, 452 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:27,000 making sure that we do have allies that come into it, making sure 453 00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:31,760 that they understand the reality of China owning that area of the country, that 454 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,360 vital shipping lane through the Taiwan Straight and the fact that that's going to combine 455 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,840 with their efforts down in the South China Sea and the encroachment on Philippine territory, 456 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,320 et cetera, et cetera. It's just it's a domino effect that will 457 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:52,639 really have a lasting impact and a promotional impact of China becoming the true regional 458 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,639 power there and having the most say over that part of the world versus the 459 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:01,320 West having anything to do in turn of influence. It's amazing. I think, 460 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,559 you know, some ten years ago you're involved in making Iron Man three, 461 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,960 and here you are Chris going really deep on the Philippines and the South 462 00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:15,719 China Sea and the Taiwan straight. Did you ever think you would be in 463 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,719 this position? Well, what's it like? No? I never thought. 464 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:22,679 I never thought I would. I would build a small company that would be 465 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:29,840 bought by that Chinese either. In fact, the only China you know education 466 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:36,519 I even had was back in college at Cornell University, where I remember a 467 00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:40,440 teacher saying, if China ever tapped into its coal reserves, it would, 468 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,760 you know, pollute the world so badly because it's got its high sulfur content 469 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,679 and all that kind of stuff, and it would wake the sleeping giant of 470 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,559 dirty energy for the next century. And that was all I remember. And 471 00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:58,159 by the way, I will say he was right, because when you go 472 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,239 over there, you see the reasons. It's of really dirty coal that they 473 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:07,360 have. It's a very high sulfur content, I guess. But that was 474 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,199 it. And then it wasn't until me being like a Michael Keaton in the 475 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,519 movie Gung Ho or suddenly like I fall into the world of and he was 476 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,840 Japan, but I'd fall in the world of China, and suddenly you have 477 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,199 to learn a lot of stuff on the fly. And then on top of 478 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:29,519 it, saw power, narrative, propaganda, censorship. That's something that Beijing 479 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:34,280 is better than anybody in the world at they just really understand how to use 480 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,960 information, news, propaganda content to placate their populace because they got one point 481 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,079 four billion people over there, and they just simply don't have enough resources on 482 00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:49,239 earth to satisfy all of them and give them everything they want. So part 483 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,679 of that is this intangible information that makes the people believe that they have the 484 00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:59,719 best form of government possible, even though they don't have all the tangible stuff 485 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,960 that they need to have this really desirable lifestyle. You know. And if 486 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,199 you go back to even our use of propaganda in the fifties to try to 487 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,000 win over, say Africa from the Soviet Union, we were sending over black 488 00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:17,880 jazz musicians and various actors and so on and so forth to the countries of 489 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,320 Africa to say, look at how amazing our culture is, look at how 490 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,440 amazing our artists are, look at how amazing our music is. Because we're 491 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,639 a free country. We are a democracy, we're a republic. We're different 492 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,559 than Soviet Union, which is a group mentality, communist type of think. 493 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,440 They don't have the stuff we do, so come with us. We will 494 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:43,000 lead you to the Promised Land versus going with Soviet Union where everything looks like 495 00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:46,559 Gorky Park. You know, you start to realize, well, if the 496 00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:53,599 CIA was using that type of information and propaganda and content to win over people, 497 00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:58,320 you know, China knows how to do it that much better. And 498 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,679 it's that nefarious, it's that dangerous because when you're talking about the CIA using 499 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,760 it, you know, it's that version over in Beijing, the MSS or 500 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,079 the PLA using it too, So it becomes an act of war that we 501 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,400 don't even realize is happening. In fact, it's called unrestricted warfare, and 502 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:22,000 that's part of the information warfare, part of that. The different spokes of 503 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,280 restrict unrestricted warfare. CIA point is so interesting because if we think our CIA 504 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:36,320 is non responsive to democratic mechanisms, imagine Chinese intel officers approaching the question of 505 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:42,960 propaganda and how what level of sort of control they're able to exert and feel 506 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,480 free to exert, in fact, feel obligated to exert over their own population. 507 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,960 Well, if any of your listeners are interested in being entertained while understanding 508 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,400 a little more of how the CIA would use soft power, there is a 509 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,920 podcast called Wind of Change. In fact, I was talking to Congressman Gallagher 510 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,719 about it yesterday and he was like, oh my god, I'm getting it 511 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,480 now. And it's literally how well it's a it's it could be a mythology, 512 00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:13,760 but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that it's true. But it's this 513 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:19,320 idea that the CIA wrote the song Wind of Change and had the Scorpions, 514 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,079 the heavy metal band, essentially perform it and make it one of their own, 515 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:29,440 and it became such a huge hit in the Soviet Union and people learned 516 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,960 the lyrics of it in English and translated, and essentially it was about how 517 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,239 to overthrow your own government. And the idea was if people loved the Scorpions 518 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:44,519 song as much as it did, it would eventually create this more free Soviet 519 00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:47,480 Union breakup. Which which did happen. Did it happen to do with the 520 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:51,800 song or not? And was the song actually constructed by the CIA. Well 521 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,679 you'd have to watch the or listen to the podcast to know for sure. 522 00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,360 But it's a really entertaining look at the power of soft power and how it 523 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,920 has been harnessed and used by military or intelligence hops over the years. I've 524 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,320 got to listen to that. David Talbot has a lot of really good books 525 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,960 on the CIA, a couple of the Dulles brothers, but they basically found 526 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,239 at the Paris Review. I mean, the CIA is control over some of 527 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,280 these Well, you mentioned Hollywood in the nineteen fifties. It looks kind of 528 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,239 ham fisted when we are able to sort of have the benefit of hindsight in 529 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,920 twenty twenty three. And that's what is sort of chilling about thinking of how 530 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,599 trying to learn from us and maybe appropriating some of these mechanisms. Now, 531 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:37,880 Well, it's weird because if you get if you talk about it too much, 532 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,920 you start to sound like you're a tinfoil hat. Were right, so, 533 00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:45,639 but it's actually a reality. Soft power is a very powerful piece of 534 00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:52,000 weaponry that's used by militaries around the world or intelligence divisions around the world. 535 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,360 And when you understand at least that that is one of the things in the 536 00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:00,320 arsenal, you can start to look at things like I say, TikTok and 537 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,800 go God. I wonder if that's part of that arsenal apparatus, which it 538 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,440 is, but it puts a little more of a you know, reality to 539 00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:14,760 it, rather than some sort of conspiracy. Yeah, that's why you know 540 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:20,280 trends on TikTok about anorexia and all of those things are especially terrifying, exactly. 541 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,599 Chris Fenton is the author of Feeding the Dragon. If you have not 542 00:42:22,639 --> 00:42:25,840 read that book, I really recommend it. So much insight and so many 543 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,199 stories from his days working on these issues, and of course he's still working 544 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:34,119 on these issues, so you should make sure to follow him on social media. 545 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,320 Also former Olive Garden waiter. I think that's maybe my favorite part of 546 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:38,880 your bio. Yeah, And I gotta say one of the things that's a 547 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,920 little disappointing about being in here as I watch everybody buzzing around in the office 548 00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:47,559 is I thought I'd see that guy that plays the guitar at the beginning of 549 00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:53,280 your podcast, that's Grace Potter. I wish we had someone who could do 550 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,719 that. But then let's get him here next time. That would be so 551 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,599 good. That would be good. That would be good. Anyway. I'm 552 00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:01,400 I'm a sit in the now, tackle the bar that's right behind you, 553 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,679 and you've got a lot of good liquor store gifts up there. I think 554 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,960 they definitely supply this off as well. And I think what we get into 555 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,760 cocktail time almost I think so, I mean doesn't matter. Well, thanks 556 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,679 for having me on as always, it's great and it's awesome to come to 557 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,519 the headquarters here, so please keep up the good work. You're doing awesome 558 00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:24,119 and I don't know how you have enough time in the day to do everything 559 00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:28,400 that you do. Appreciate it, Chris, And likewise, I don't know 560 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,920 how you get everything done either, but it's so great to have you here 561 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,480 a person. You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. 562 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:37,719 I'm Emily Dashinski, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon 563 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:45,519 with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.