WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:09.480 Well, whiskey coming thing my payney, Oh why don't you let me? 2 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:17.960 From Powerline blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot Com, this is the 3 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:25.320 Three Whiskey Happy Hour with your bartenders Steve Hayward, John You and power Lines 4 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:33.719 International Woman of Mystery Lucretia's gotta giving. Let that whiskey bloat where you're being 5 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:42.039 in love down in lod Well. All right, Lucretia, I know we 6 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:44.840 see John you here on zoom with us, but you never know if he's 7 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.200 really in the country or whether it's a phony backdrop. But I have found 8 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:52.799 empirical proof that John is indeed back in the United States. I don't know, 9 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.640 Lucretia, if you saw this in the inflation report last week, but 10 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.920 part prices are way up. That's shows that John is back in Hi John, 11 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.280 Welcome back, Hi John. Hey guys, Hey guys. This is 12 00:01:03.319 --> 00:01:07.359 from the guy who was kidnapped in Hungary for eighteen weeks. It seemed like 13 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:15.159 right and you missed it when I told him that. I was very annoyed 14 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:19.599 by the fact that the Three Whiskey Happy Hour, which is way more popular 15 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:26.280 than that other podcast, had to redo it schedule fifteen times because Steve has 16 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.400 to be on Ricochet, and we're supposed to move our schedule for the Ricochet 17 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.359 podcast. Even you, John, are more popular than the guys on the 18 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:40.480 Ricachet podcast. Well maybe with our listeners who any wellk the ones who count, 19 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.840 well, that's not up on that too much. So listeners, today, 20 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.079 you want to pour a good stiff three fingers of your favorite whiskey, 21 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.040 because we're going to get deep into the weeds of some applied theory. I'm 22 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.519 going to call it that applied theory to the questions of free speech and the 23 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:00.359 laws of war. And while those may seem like different domains, I think 24 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.879 they're vitally connected. And we're going to see how today, and of course 25 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:05.760 along the way, we're going to see all the ways that John, you 26 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:09.000 can be wrong about this, because I always like it when for Lucretius somebody 27 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:14.520 is more wronger than I am. Okay, let's be in with two news 28 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:16.319 items. I don't know if you caught these, but one of them was 29 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.960 first, I'll do it this order. First of all, our pal Josh 30 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:25.280 Hammer, who is the opinion editor of Newsweek and several other things. Right, 31 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:29.120 he was speaking maybe for the federal society. I'm not sure where, 32 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.639 but he was speaking somewhere in the last week where he got shouted down, 33 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:36.719 kind of like Judge Duncan at Stanford a few months ago. And I guess 34 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.159 he finally got to give his talk. But when he first was introduced, 35 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:44.319 he got up and you had all these you know, pro Hamas demonstrators shouting 36 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.520 him down, So violating his First Amendment rights, you might say, narrowly. 37 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.000 The second news item that's related is I'm not sure if we spend much 38 00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:00.520 time on this, but Governor de Santis in Florida a band or d certified 39 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:05.879 whatever the step is, every Students for Justice in Palestine chapter at Florida's public 40 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.639 universities, and by the way, that has now been filowed by a handful 41 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:16.400 of places. Brandeis Columbia University has suspended or decertified their Students for Justice and 42 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:22.199 Palestine chapters. Those are private universities, of course, And the question was, 43 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.960 gosh, why isn't the ACLU or Students for Justice in Palestine running into 44 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.919 court claiming that these are First Amendment violations? And sure enough late this week 45 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:36.639 SJP, I'll just go to their initials. Now, did file a first 46 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.039 Amendment claim in court against Governor DeSantis in Florida, which raises the question of 47 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:46.520 is this we are looking at what DeSantis did in other universities? Is this 48 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:51.599 conservative cancel culture? Isn't this the kind of thing John people complain say that 49 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.800 we complain about, and aren't we now guilty of being hypocrites on the subject. 50 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.960 So let me stop there and get your guys initial reaction to this phenomenon, 51 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.759 Whether it's the particular stories, are the wider scene and who wants to 52 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:09.000 go first. I think that the critics of conservatives have a point when it 53 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:14.439 comes to public universities. Brandeis any other private university. They don't have an 54 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:18.720 obligation to obey the First Amendment. The First Amendment only applies to the government. 55 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:25.759 So accept in these unusual categories we've talked about before, involving social media 56 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.079 and common carriers. If you're a private party, you don't have to let 57 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:33.240 anybody stick their campaign sign on your front yard. You can kick them the 58 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.480 hell out. I think that, as the Supreme Court has said, the 59 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:43.800 right of free speech also means that you have the right to stop people from 60 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:48.319 using your private property to speak. Well, I don't know well, is 61 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:51.480 the case with Florida is different? I think the case with dissent is different. 62 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:57.439 Right, that's a public university. They are bound by the First Amendment, 63 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:02.079 as incorporated by the Fourteenth Amendment against the States. And I don't see 64 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:08.839 why a state has the right to pick and choose amongst what groups it allows 65 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:15.399 to exist based on the content of their speech. Now the students for Justice 66 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.879 and Palestine are committing violence. If they are, I think you can say 67 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:24.480 we're going to ban a group that actually commits violence. But here, as 68 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.279 you described, as Stephen, as the reports I've seen the press, you 69 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.639 know, I don't think these groups have actually engaged in physical violence on the 70 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.360 campuses sufficient to ban them. We have, then, let's hear it. 71 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:40.759 We can use that standard against every other group too. Can I just mention 72 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:46.519 one objection Lucretia before I bring in you, which is I don't proposally go 73 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.319 off on this for long digression, John, But the distinction between public and 74 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:54.279 private universities does that really work? I mean, after all, the hook 75 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.959 with Harvard in the affirmative action cases that there are recipients of federal funds. 76 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:03.000 So columb gets lots of federal funds as to almost all private colleges. Doesn't 77 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:09.079 that make them if it makes them subject to constitutional scrutiny for civil rights on 78 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:14.759 the fourteenth Amendment, why wouldn't the First Amendment be similar? If you want 79 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:17.600 to add that to the mix, it only makes my case stronger, doesn't 80 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:20.000 it, Because then you would say, well, I'm gonna explain the minute 81 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.199 how you're wrong. But then, I mean, we could talk about when 82 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:28.600 the spending clause should be used this way. But if you want to say 83 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:33.920 private universities that receive federal funds also have to obey certain standards, then it 84 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:42.040 means even Brandeis can't ban these groups. Because first, I'm going to indulge 85 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:49.720 this idea that it's merely a First Amendment jurisprudence question, a purely constitutional legal 86 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:54.600 question, because of course it's much more than that. But I will entertain 87 00:06:54.759 --> 00:07:00.439 that, your lawyer, I expect it. What we know is the universities 88 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:09.439 for least a couple of decades have banned free speech if it caused some members 89 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:15.759 of the community to feel unsafe. Unsafe words are violence, silence is violence, 90 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:20.399 and all this other crap that universities got away with, and very little 91 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:25.920 there was very little success at bringing a First Amendment claim against that kind of 92 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.600 nonsense stupidity. I mean, there aren't enough negative adjectives for me to describe 93 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:35.480 how much crap I think that is. However, what we have, again 94 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:42.000 conceding for the moment, that somehow the stupid opinions on freedom of speech by 95 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:46.399 the Supreme Court are relevant in any way because most of them are, don't. 96 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:53.319 We have from the Supreme Court the decision of clear and present danger, 97 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:59.720 and that clear and present danger doesn't actually take the violence at the moment, 98 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.439 but violent places where violence is imminent. And one of the things you are 99 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:11.360 wrong about, John, is the incredible level of violence that is being perpetrated 100 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:16.600 against Jewish students on campus. Many times the violence is avoided by you know, 101 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.040 police escorting them out the back and all those sorts of things, but 102 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.240 they're violent, and there's no doubt that they're violent. And so thinking say 103 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:31.879 about the whole line of cases, again, muddled stupid cases by the usually 104 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:39.120 muddled stupid Supreme Court, about the House of an American Activities Committee, you 105 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.279 know, well, this is an imminent danger. This is not an imminent 106 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.840 danger. But we have in our constitutional jurisprudency idea that you don't just have 107 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:52.559 to walk up and smack somebody, slug somebody in the face in order to 108 00:08:52.639 --> 00:09:01.000 be guilty of speech that causes a very real threat to start there. And 109 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:03.639 that to me is not the deep question. But what do you? I 110 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.960 mean, I don't even know. I can't even keep up with the Supreme 111 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:13.519 Courts where they are on this stupid issue because they missed the whole point entirely 112 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.639 of what freedom of speech is supposed to do. But conceding that somehow it's 113 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:24.159 important. The court has said you don't have to have actual violence in order 114 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:33.399 to restrict freedom of speech. One I think that universities have been hypocritical if 115 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:39.600 they've been banning conservative groups or conservative speakers on this theory of the things they 116 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:45.039 actually say are violent amount to physical violence. I mean, I just think 117 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.039 that's actually I just think wrong. And I think the conservative groups and speakers 118 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:54.759 that have been canceled for those reasons could sue, you know, and and 119 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.559 certainly in many cases, I think this is actually the thing said by people 120 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:03.399 who try to disrupt and prevent their speech, not by university administrators who seem 121 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:09.080 totally clueless about what to do in these past cases, you know, like 122 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.919 Heather. We had case at Berkeley, Heather McDonald with Steve is the potted 123 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.440 plant next to her as the moderator, where you know, these people tried 124 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.679 to uh, they didn't try to disrupt her speech so she couldn't speak, 125 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:24.240 but they caused a ruckus and they did it on that ground too, And 126 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.320 I think the university has an obligation to stop them from doing that. I 127 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:30.840 don't think they the university should sit there and say, oh, we are 128 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.159 going to prevent speech that causes violence. I agree with Lucretia. If that 129 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:41.639 is the standard, then this Governor DeSantis could stop these proposts. But that 130 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:43.960 plays into your argument then, which is that that that it's the same kind 131 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.679 of cancel culture, right, yeah, yeah, but I don't think but 132 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.000 I just think it's wrong. I don't think that the standard being applied to 133 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.639 conservative groups is appropriate either. But that's different than the imminent you know, 134 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.159 imminent harm standard. I mean that is in the law that it depends on 135 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:05.559 the facts. But my impression it depends really on whether Governor DeSantis, when 136 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:09.919 he made the decision, actually had the facts and can prove it. It 137 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.320 seems to me, maybe I'm wrong, that seemed like a blanket or a 138 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.919 prohibition of these groups, no matter what they were doing. You know, 139 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.440 maybe there were some incidents in some campuses in Florida and some were not. 140 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.159 But I think he just blanket banned them based on what they were saying. 141 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.000 He didn't just say, oh, these groups. And there's an interesting, 142 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.399 you know example, like Lucretian mentioned the Communist Party in the nineteen fifties, 143 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.639 or you know, we play these hypotheticals in law school. What if there 144 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:41.200 is a political party devoted to the overthrow of the constitution. Well, there 145 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:46.559 is there is a political party devoted to the overthrown the constitution. Actually, 146 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.799 I think Lucretia, you think all the political parties are devoted to those Some 147 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.240 of them pay lift service to it, some of them don't even bother yea. 148 00:11:54.360 --> 00:12:01.639 But to me, unless they're actually doing something other than speaking, they're 149 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:03.679 still protected by the First Amendments. To take the example of a terrorist group, 150 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.360 there's actually a case that went to the Supreme Court about this where there 151 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:13.399 were these groups that were sending money to terrorist groups in the Middle East. 152 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.039 But they said, oh, we're just raising money and we're spending it on 153 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.000 speech, and we're raising money and spending it on lawyers and pr basically, 154 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.399 and the Supreme Court said, if you're only speaking, you would have a 155 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.879 case. But you're clearly doing other things with the Monday, which is conduct. 156 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:35.320 You're sending money to the terrorist groups, you're defending them in other ways 157 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.279 than just speaking, and that can be punished by the government. I think 158 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.639 that's the line. So I agree if there were some kind of imminent harms, 159 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:50.480 supposed there was actually outbreaks of violence on campus and fighting between Jewish John 160 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:56.440 these days, does he not read news? I always see, you know, 161 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.200 isolated incidents. I don't see, you know, sort of like what 162 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.639 I saw. I wasn't around what we saw the campuses in Vietnam, for 163 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:09.600 example, during Vietnam. So I think that, and I totally sympathize with 164 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.919 Jewish students who feel they're feel unsafe, But I don't think the right remedy 165 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.720 is to ban Palestinian groups from existing. I think the remedy is to punish 166 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:26.759 individual students, faculty, or staff who actually take violence into their own hands. 167 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:31.320 Can I argue for just a moment before that that's a bit naive and 168 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.559 The reason I say that it's kind of a theme I've had for the last 169 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:39.240 few weeks, and that is that the most important battle that is being fought 170 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.320 by Israel right now is call it the propaganda war. Call it the the 171 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:54.159 right for Israel to exist, the right for Jews to be Jews and exist, 172 00:13:54.360 --> 00:14:00.759 the right not to be considered by Palestinians and Iranians and muscle in general, 173 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:07.759 not all I get it as human beings because they're not considered by those 174 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:13.480 people as human beings. All of that is part of a massive attempt to 175 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.039 move public opinion in one way or another, Okay, and one way or 176 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:24.679 another. And we've talked about the fact that universities for at least several decades 177 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:31.879 now have completely set the conditions for these subhuman savages, pieces of extrement, 178 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:39.679 Palestinians and others, to completely destroy the social fabric that keeps this country together 179 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:46.679 because they deny the humanity of others while not even being human themselves. You 180 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.240 know, that's the way I would probably put it, not at a standard 181 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:56.639 of humanity that allows us to live together on terms of you know, equality 182 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.360 and so forth. That's the problem. I get what you're saying that no, 183 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:07.320 we need to punish individuals, but giving sanction to students for Palestine justice 184 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:13.600 in Palestine, which is built on a whole series of lies and then has 185 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:22.360 serious consequences across all of society. Where do you stop it? Where do 186 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.039 you stop it? I share what your concerns. I'm totally on the side 187 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.919 of Israel. I hope they go in and root out Hamas. I wish 188 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.799 they could take care Hezbollah in Iran while they're at it. But what worries 189 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.600 me is and this is not the United States itself at war, right, 190 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.559 We're not talking about censorship in war time. This is a state where, 191 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.799 still at peace. I worry more, ultimately long run, about the government 192 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:54.279 deciding that even though I agree with your position, I worry about the government 193 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.879 deciding that is the agreed on position. So here's a here's a example, 194 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.799 or hope thought I would throw your way was do you think that before the 195 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.720 Civil War that Abraham Lincoln should have been allowed to censor pro slavery speech, 196 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:15.279 for example? Or do you think that, uh, you know, before 197 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.200 we entered World War two, before we entered World War two, that FDR 198 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:25.240 should have been allowed to censor pro German and pro Japanese speech. I think 199 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.759 once the war starts and we're fighting, and then these you know, propaganda 200 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.759 tactics are going to be used against US as a weapon war, I think 201 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:36.639 that's fine to censor. But you're talking about censorship. You're talking about censoring 202 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.200 positions that are about a war that we are not actually fighting. Right, 203 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.840 You're right, it's a tool of war that the Palestinians are using against Israelis. 204 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:51.519 But I don't think the government should be picking and choosing what types of 205 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:53.679 speech and the content that it should allow. Well, can ire on our 206 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.639 peace time? Can I jump in here and John? And I'm going to 207 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.759 vote this cliche that's very popular right now that I don't like because it's a 208 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.600 cliche and I avoid them. But what time is it? I mean, 209 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.400 John, I mean, in a very meaningful sense, we are at war. 210 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.519 I mean Iran declared war on US forty some years ago, and even 211 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.599 though we don't have armies in the field. And then second, I mean 212 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.559 this was what well, I don't mean again, we don't have a conventional 213 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:19.759 war going on against it, although I mean we're close to it. We're 214 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.559 firing a being attacked fifty seven times, right, no, I guess, 215 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:27.799 but on a broader sense, and by the way, there are specific things 216 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:32.480 such as to the extent that you see so many foreign students here on student 217 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.759 visas behind some of these agitations. They should just simply be deported and then 218 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.799 the problem goes away in this country without having to get into the tangle of 219 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:44.920 free speech and some of the rest of it, and then comfortable letting the 220 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:51.480 Biden administration decide, Okay, we're going to ban speech in favor of Palestinians, 221 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.759 We're going to ban speech in favor of a peaceful settlement? Are we 222 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.359 going to ban speech in favor of a ceasefire? Right? Like we're Creatia 223 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.920 says where's the line? Yeah, where's the line there? And then the 224 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.759 other thing is take it out of the Millie's contexts. Then you're saying that 225 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.200 the uh that Joe Biden can start centering speech that conflicts with his vision of 226 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:17.240 national security. So could you ban proach Chinese speech, pro Russian speech about 227 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.559 the Ukraine War. We know that the administration is already doing it, but 228 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.200 yeah, they might be doing it. Doesn't mean that it's right, right, 229 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.000 I mean, can I like it? But that's the line. That's 230 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:34.400 the that's that's what you're contemplating. Right. If you're going to say we 231 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.519 should be able to ban Propilestadian speech, it would apply to all the other 232 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:44.039 wars we're involved into. All right, it's no formal fight answer the questions. 233 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.079 Let me let me move into the deeper reasons why there's a provisional answer 234 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.200 yes to some of your questions. Although I can test the way you've phrased 235 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.599 them. It's not so much the condition of war. It is the nature 236 00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:00.440 and limits of free speech itself. And one of the problems is Lucre already 237 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.119 referenced this. We now have decades of really bad First Amendment decisions that said 238 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:10.240 expressionist speech, and it used to be a time when people contested some of 239 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.119 these, like Walter Burns, like Frank Canavan. One of my favorites is 240 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:18.640 David Lowenthal's book from thirty years ago, No Liberty for License, and I 241 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.640 want to share two pat two quick passages from his book that frame the question 242 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.440 that I think we should be answering here. And then I want to bring 243 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.880 in the way Jaffa looked at it and the way he applied Lincoln in a 244 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.039 way different than the way you just did so Lowenthal's book. I'll give you 245 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:41.160 two sentences here. Citizens may therefore find themselves asking whether our founding fathers, 246 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.960 known for their press udits and realism, meant the First Amendment to protect those 247 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:51.920 who would use freedom for the destruction of freedom? Was this keystone of the 248 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:56.720 Bill of Rights really intended to guarantee the freedom of expression and organization to the 249 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.160 enemies of freedom? And after discussing it, he and comes to the end 250 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.839 and raises this question. Only if it can be shown that a Nazi or 251 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:10.960 communist or Black Panther Party or a klu klux Klan contributes to Republican ends, 252 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.200 can a case be made through the First Amendment for permitting its legal status. 253 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:19.960 Otherwise such groups are all legally and prudently shorn of this status from the outset, 254 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.480 and not only without violating any part of the Constitution, but in keeping 255 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.960 with its positive injunctions. He, by the way, Lollenthal, who was 256 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.440 a classmate of Jaffas under Leo Straus and Chicago back in what the fifties, 257 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.400 I guess forties and fifties. He's channeling Jaffa's argument, which I'll come to. 258 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.160 But the where am I going with all that? One of the practical 259 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.640 problems is and he meant he brings up the word prudence, which is hugely 260 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.799 important. Is an awful lot of students who go on these marches are idiots. 261 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.480 They don't know anything. But the question you want to ask is what 262 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.599 is the general tendency of this group if they got power. You know, 263 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.759 an awful lot of people join the Nazi Party in Germany in the thirties because 264 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.119 it's young, naive you thinking this would be a way back for national greatness 265 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:04.839 for Germany. And some very smart people went along with it, as we 266 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:10.519 know, like Carl Schmidt, Martin Heideger, et cetera. And it was 267 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.119 too late to stop them. And you know, one of the great lines 268 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.440 of people like Raymond Drone, but also Leo Strauss and his famous book on 269 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.000 Spinoza saying, you know, we saw a regime that was too weak to 270 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.880 protect itself from the rising tyrants among them. And there's the problem. I 271 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.640 think, on a level of principle, it's perfectly legitimate to say the aims 272 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.079 of this group are unacceptable in a free society, and therefore can be rightfully 273 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.319 as a matter of principle. Band Now, whether we should or not is 274 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.759 a matter of prudence, and I'll come back to that, but I'll stop 275 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.359 there because yes, I don't get this. So I mean, I do 276 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.279 get it, but I don't think it's wise. For this reason, You're 277 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:57.799 still saying that the government has some authority to pick and choose what's a legitimate 278 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:02.119 point of view and not right. So this is either. So Steve's making 279 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.640 the claim even if he's not even talking about whether there's actual violence occurring. 280 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:11.200 He's just saying the government has the right to decide certain types of speech are 281 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:19.480 valid or not based on their content alone. So where did those values come 282 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:25.119 from? So would it have been okay for certain periods of American history for 283 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.000 the government to say, we think this set of views is a threat to 284 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.839 the existence of the government, and so we're going to ban it. So 285 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:41.000 under your theory, it was appropriate then for the Southern governments to say, 286 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.039 we're going to ban abolitionist literature from being in mailed, and we're going to 287 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.640 ban abolitionist speakers because we think that you know, promoting here, I'm not 288 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.680 I know, you know where I'm going by, and I say, you 289 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.599 know, for people not caught up on these arguments because you're they could say, 290 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.200 look, constitution allows us to have slavery. You calling for the end 291 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.960 of the end of slavery rips out a core for us of the constitutional system. 292 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:10.079 So we're going to be you're a threat to the constitution. Or take 293 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:11.240 them, I mean, take the Middle Ages. I can't help but think 294 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:17.440 is this okay for you know, Christian regimes in the West during the Middle 295 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:22.279 Ages to ban certain things they thought was a threat to machine, like Protestantism 296 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.400 or Galileo. I mean, I'm not, you know, trying to be 297 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.599 florid. I'm just saying that where do you get the confidence that the government 298 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.880 will know exactly what values it should allow and which values it shouldn't allow and 299 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.920 then express in speech. Why isn't it better for speech? I totally agree 300 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.599 with you. We should not have gone this lot down this line of expression 301 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.559 equal speech, but it's just pure verbal and written speech. Why isn't it 302 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:48.400 better to use the marketplace of ideas approach and say just let all the speech 303 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.279 out there, don't let the government intervene, because the speech is valuable to 304 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.880 allow us to make decisions about policy. Even if we want to say, 305 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:03.680 let's change our constitutional system and get rid of democracy in some ways like we 306 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.440 do. Let's why not have a full Senate and no House for example. 307 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.599 Why can't we say things like that and have arguments about that. Even that 308 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.480 would be very undemocratic in the end. So part of the problem, I'll 309 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.799 go back to the whole thing about slavery in a moment, But part of 310 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.039 the problem is that you don't recognize, John, that freedom of speech is 311 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.000 not an end in itself. It is not an end in itself. It 312 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.240 is an end, a very important excuse me, a means, a very 313 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:36.519 important means designed to keep a free society free. And I agree with you 314 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:41.519 that, especially when you use the example of the Biden administration, that the 315 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:48.880 government currently in power is very dangerous to what it is that freedom of speech 316 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.440 should be protecting. And what it is that freedom of speech should be protecting 317 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:57.359 are the fundamental principles upon which our constitution is based, and go all the 318 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:03.079 way to the very to the very most fundamental thing, and that is human 319 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:07.960 equality, Okay, human equality and consent. Now, Jaffa makes a point 320 00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:15.880 in his essay that you can have deception and force, giving rise to quote 321 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.039 unquote legitimate authority. I think that's what we have now with the Biden administration, 322 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.960 a lot of deception. Whether you believe fraud occurred or not. You 323 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.880 know, deception occurred in the twenty twenty election because they admitted to it. 324 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:32.440 They admitted to doing everything possible, never mind the laptop and all those other 325 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:40.000 things. So it's always a danger that the government itself will become dangerous to 326 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.559 the kind of freedom of speech means to the end of republican government, I 327 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:48.480 guess, is how I would say it. That's thing one, You cannot 328 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:51.480 look at freedom of speech as a good in and of itself. You are 329 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:57.359 correct that most of the time, the free marketplace of ideas is in fact 330 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:06.920 the best way in a free, self governing republic to produce the best possible 331 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:14.680 outcomes, policy outcomes and so on. But what we're seeing very clearly, 332 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:19.279 and I wasn't joking when I said one political party is not committed to the 333 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.400 Constitution. I mean that in my heart of hearts. We know that, 334 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:32.039 we know that their particular agenda has nothing to do with preserving the Constitution. 335 00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:37.240 It's all about power, it's all about force, it's all about using whatever 336 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.720 they can at the moment to get what they want, but they have no 337 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:45.559 commitment to constitutional government. So saying that I agree with you about your concerns, 338 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:48.559 the point of the matter is that there's these kind of immediate problems, 339 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:53.559 and the students for Palestine are one. I can't even say justice students for 340 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:59.559 injustice in Palestine, I'm going to call them are one of those immediate problems 341 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:03.400 that needs to be solved. Who needs to do it? Well, I 342 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.319 don't trust it Biden administration. I probably do trust Ron De Santis for making 343 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.599 the right decisions here. I am not a free free speech absolutist, so 344 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.200 I might be a free freedom of religion absolutist, but that's a whole different 345 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:22.319 subject. But if we are not willing to do what is necessary, and 346 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.920 I told Steve before you got on, I don't know what is necessary looks 347 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.319 like I'll be honest with you. But if we are not willing to do 348 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:37.039 what is necessary in the realm of our civil liberties to protect what it is 349 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.920 that creates the basis for those civil liberties to be exercised, then we will 350 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.160 destroy ourselves. Of course, here's the threat, here's the thing, and 351 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.799 it goes to here worry about the media problem. This is where I could 352 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:53.440 see a mistake being made. Why would you think these students for Palesite are 353 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:59.079 really a threat to our government democracy. I despise what they say, I 354 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.319 despise their tests. Are they really a threat? I don't think so. 355 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.000 Okay, so I really don't. But that's what we allow the government to 356 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.240 decide. Right with your point of view is you would let the government say 357 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.440 I think they're an imminent threat, let's ban them. But if you want 358 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.640 to look at the reality of things, I am confident actually that Israel is 359 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.799 going to prevail. I don't think they're going to be swayed by this kind 360 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:26.000 of propaganda operations. It's imposing a cost on them, but they're going forward 361 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:32.480 and Gaza all the more power to them. I don't think it's because we 362 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.200 want to support Israel, because we protect our Jewish students, that it's actually 363 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.200 worth banning, giving the government the power to ban basically what are political groups? 364 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.799 Okay, So really quickly, Steve, it's a real quick point. 365 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:51.519 There was an article in some they got very little press, an article about 366 00:28:52.920 --> 00:29:02.559 the U of A suspending two education professors teaching an early child childhood education class. 367 00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:04.400 Got it even in the best of days, what a nightmare that would 368 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:12.319 be. But somebody uh taped the lecture that they were giving and it was 369 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:18.640 this, this anti Jewish Jews are scum there. You know, they deserve 370 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:25.880 they all deserve to be killed pro Palestine gencide in an early childhood education class 371 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.240 at a university. Okay, was anybody hurt as a result of it? 372 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.079 Nobody was punched in the face, although if I'd have been there, I'd 373 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.640 punch somebody in the face and then you know, but but now you've you're 374 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.799 going out there and you're educating these already stupid education students. Sorry, but 375 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.039 they're the dumbest students on the planet. I know that from experience, and 376 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:52.880 so very easily susceptible to prop to propaganda. And they go out and they 377 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:57.039 they start going into their classrooms, into their preschools, which we've also seen 378 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:03.720 happening, and doing their hatreds, viewing their anti government and you know, 379 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.400 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and bit by bit we see 380 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.160 is society destroyed. Where do you stop that? Well, they suspended them, 381 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.400 Yeah, no, I agree. You know, so this is a 382 00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.960 thing that I think the Santus could have done. I think the Santis could 383 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.920 get rid of all these Middle Eastern study departments and ethnic studies departments, because 384 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.559 you're rightly Christian when you're providing education. You know, the three of us 385 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.920 when we taught our class, we had to this great class by the way, 386 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.000 on constitutional interpretation, where we talked about some of this we should do 387 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.839 that one online. We should charge for it though, but you know we 388 00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:42.359 you know, we had to decide. So in that great class we went 389 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:47.559 through and said we're going to cover ten theories of constitutional interpretation. We did 390 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.640 decide which ones to leave out. Right, we have to decide which things 391 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:56.079 to read it. So I wouldn't go so far as saying the university, 392 00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.359 in operating a school, has to make the classroom itself a free speech zone 393 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:04.000 and that everybody has the right to teach whatever they want and enter your classroom 394 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.880 or my classroom and disrupt it and teach what they want to teach. Yeah, 395 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.160 in operating the school, you still have to make decisions of what's valuable 396 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.200 and not valuable. But with the student groups, you know, if the 397 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.880 university is going to say we're going to basically allow everybody who wants to to 398 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:22.400 create a student group, no matter what your point of view is. You 399 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.000 know, they've created what we think it was a public forum, and then 400 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.640 they're not allowed to pick and choose. Let me just ask you, could 401 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.279 you I'm sorry, Steve, really quick, I promise, could you should 402 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:40.920 you allow a group, a student group to form on campus that is not 403 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:49.039 only say, pro white whites only, but that specifically and explicitly dedicated themselves 404 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:56.279 to eradicating the black race. So I don't think you could under title nine, 405 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.839 actually under seapoint, don't think you could ban the some you know, 406 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:05.319 minority students wanted to join that group, which seems crazy to me. But 407 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.799 if they wanted to, I think they can. I don't think that the 408 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:13.960 state can say you can use race to determine who's a member of the group. 409 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:19.319 But I don't think that the government can say you are prohibited from making 410 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:24.079 that political argument. All right. It's one thing to say they're prohibited from 411 00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:27.759 making it. It's another thing to give it the sanction of the university, 412 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:31.799 which is exactly what happens when you allow student clubs to be constituted. Yeah, 413 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:35.720 all right, that Steve, Yeah, I think so, yeah, 414 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.880 that's right. I think, well, some people have made this out that 415 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:45.880 isn't from the river to the sea the equivalent for Jews as the Confederate flag 416 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.640 is for genocide, because there's who lives between the river and the sea. 417 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.440 Exactly right. And okay, let me let's do this because we do want 418 00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:58.480 to give a little bit about the laws of war, which you related. 419 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:01.880 Let me press the further beyond the way David Lowenthal put it and give you 420 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:06.519 John a couple of passages from Jaffa's treatment of this, which, by the 421 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.799 way, include a point in your favor, as you'll see in a moment. 422 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:14.400 This essay Jaffa wrote way back in nineteen sixty four, and he was 423 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:19.640 looking back at the people who were saying, you can't really ban the Communist 424 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.480 Party, we can't have loyalty, ohs, because it's free speech in the 425 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.160 First Amendment. And he was at the early problem of all this, and 426 00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:29.480 he said, sure, we can. Let me give you three quick passages 427 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:34.759 here which restate the argument I'm trying to bring out. Does a free society 428 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:39.279 prove false to itself if it denies civil liberties to communists, Nazis, or 429 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:45.519 anyone else who would use these liberties if he could, as a means of 430 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.279 destroying the free society. The answer, I believe is now playing that it 431 00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.079 does not. In saying this, I do not counsel or even justify any 432 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:59.079 particular measure for dealing with persons of such description. What is right in any 433 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:02.119 case depends upon on the facts of that case, and I'm here dealing only 434 00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:07.559 with principles, not their application. However, those who think that every denial 435 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:14.159 of civil liberties is equally derogatory of the character of a free society without reference 436 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.800 to the character of the person's being denied, make this fundamental error. They 437 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.119 confuse means with ends. Okay, the second excerpt shorter. Thus, speech 438 00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:29.079 calling for the proscription of individuals or classes, this is what students for Justice 439 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.159 in Palestine do, Right, they're classifying Jews. And okay, that speech 440 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.719 calling for the prescription of individuals or classes is inherently wrong, and there is 441 00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:42.800 an inherent right in every community to treat it as criminal wholly apart from any 442 00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:45.840 consequences that can be foreseen at the moment. And finally, and here's where 443 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.480 Jeff is partly on your side, John, Communists and Nazis have no right 444 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:54.920 to the use of free speech in a free society. However, whether it 445 00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:00.679 is wise or expedient to deny them its use is another matter. I believe 446 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.000 that the United States is sufficiently civilized and sufficiently stable to bear the advocacy of 447 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:10.679 almost anything, whether it be national socialism, communism, or cannibalism. I 448 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:15.440 would take my stand with Jefferson, who said in his first inaugural, if 449 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:17.880 there be any among us who would wish to dissolve the Union or to change 450 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:22.639 its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which 451 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.199 the error of opinion may be tolerated, where reason is left free to combat 452 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:32.679 it. But Jefferson only tolerated error. He did not in any way concede 453 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:38.199 a right of the enemies of republican government to change change it into a contrary 454 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:44.360 form. So there he does say, is it wise to contemplate what I'm 455 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:47.880 suggesting? And what are the circumstances? I wonder, and Lucretia said this 456 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:52.119 last week if he would still say that today when you look at the fact 457 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:57.000 that elite opinion in our universities, embedded in our universities, and in alarm 458 00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:01.719 major media is so far gone around the bend that it isn't plausible to say, 459 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:05.960 hey, wait a minute, we need to forcefully say stop to all 460 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.000 this. And therefore what governor the Santa State is absolutely right. So your 461 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:16.639 principle is that the government can prohibit speech which calls for people to violate the 462 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:22.159 fundamental natural rights of human beings. Yes, so, And the fundamental natural 463 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:28.719 you just said was equality. So you would say that the government could suppress 464 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:34.000 speech by groups that say, I don't want certain kinds of people to vote, 465 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.119 I don't want certain kinds of people to be allowed to enter join our 466 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:43.400 community or to be a part of the community. I have the right to 467 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.079 suppose somebody says, like in Lucrutia's example, or white supremacists, you say, 468 00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.400 I only want white people to have the right to vote, and I 469 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.639 want to kick all the minorities out of the country. So you would say 470 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.280 government has the right to do Now, this is the interesting, by the 471 00:36:57.320 --> 00:37:02.599 way, is always always, but this is you know, this is what 472 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:07.440 the left thinks too. Right. They say, oh, we're only adjusting 473 00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:12.440 free speech rights to enhance an advanced equality. Right, that's why we allow 474 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.239 certain kinds of speech and not others because they're not right. But it's this. 475 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.679 They have a different definition of equality than you do. Well. But 476 00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:25.559 but their definition is not right, and their definition does not Seriously, I'm 477 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:30.480 very serious when I say that their definition does not, in any way, 478 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:37.599 shape or form give us a basis that upon which to build constitutional government. 479 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:42.960 Their definition of equality is oppressors and oppressed, and we just have to decide 480 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.840 who at any moment is oppressed and who's the oppressor, and it's it's there. 481 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:53.599 You cannot make a moral equivalence between what the left pretends to be a 482 00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:59.400 vision, their vision of equality, and true human equality, which recognizes the 483 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:05.559 fundamental humanity of every human being as an individual, as a natural ruler, 484 00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:12.440 and upon that we get the basis for consent. The people sometimes consent to 485 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:16.000 bad governments, and that's part of your argument, John. Right now, 486 00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:22.400 the government we have in place is not trustworthy with some of these awful powers 487 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.239 we're talking about, which is what I told Steve that at the very end 488 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:31.360 of this maybe our commenters will have something to say about it. But I 489 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:38.280 do believe that the speech of students for Injustice in Palestine is so dangerous and 490 00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:44.599 the people who are simply sort of coddling them and denouncing them softly, and 491 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:49.119 all those other kinds of things. And yeah, maybe well Israel probably should 492 00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:53.599 have a more proportionate response and all of those things that follow from the stupid 493 00:38:54.119 --> 00:39:00.239 Palestinian protests. I don't know what the answer is in terms terms of practical 494 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.159 solutions, and I know that's kind of what you're getting at, too, 495 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:09.360 because is the answer the Biden administration and all of their corrupt incompetence being the 496 00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:15.119 ones deciding, Well, mean, we're running along. I think two things 497 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:19.719 and then we should move on. One is clearly we needed a whole separate 498 00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.480 show on this question of equality because we're not going to sort that out in 499 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.199 five minutes here. But second, and more narrowly to the point we're working 500 00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:29.320 on right now, John, is what I'm really calling for, at a 501 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.719 minimum, as a recognition that this is a genuine threat and should be called 502 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.159 out as such. Whether the right measure is as banning the student groups and 503 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:44.280 other things, that is a matter of prudence and circumstance and wisdom and what's 504 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.039 effective. But what Lucretia is just saying is we keep getting all the wishy 505 00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:52.079 washy statements, including from many conservatives and libertarians and oh, it's just another 506 00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:53.519 point of view, and yeah, we don't agree with it. And what 507 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.480 I'm saying here is no, we ought to at least be clear in our 508 00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:01.119 minds how bad this make one which to make an announce Let's do one more 509 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.960 Let's do one more thing. Let's say, let's shame them because they're cowards. 510 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:09.599 And you know, Steve and I are on campus where these groups refuse 511 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:15.039 to debate right Jewish groups like but that's the free speech at work, because 512 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:16.719 I think people will see them for the cowards they are when they say, 513 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:21.440 oh, we won't appear on a stage with anyone who believes Israel has a 514 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.519 right to exist. I think that's the way you beat them. I think 515 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:28.360 that's why Governor Santis makes a mistake by banning them, because then you think, 516 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:30.119 what is it that he doesn't want us to hear? Instead? What 517 00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:34.480 DeSantis to say? I challenge, you know, the head of the group 518 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.519 to come to the University of Florida and I will debate it myself in front 519 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:39.119 of all the students. And you know what, they won't. They're cowards. 520 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:44.239 They won't show it. And that's how you win. You're right if 521 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:47.079 you concede that we live in a world of more relativism and people can't make 522 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:51.320 the kind of moral distinctions they need to make. This is the analogy I 523 00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:53.199 just want you to think about, and maybe, like Steve says, we 524 00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:58.039 take it on it at another time. So you build a bridge, and 525 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.280 you need to know math to no engineering to know how to build a bridge. 526 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:04.639 Right, Well, but math is racist, sorry I can help. 527 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.559 Well, that's where I'm going with this. So math is racist, and 528 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:13.679 let's just say that if you go into the stupid math is racist and so 529 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.639 on, what we're going to stop doing is just say that there are absolutes 530 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.039 in math, and we're going to stop teaching students, you know, the 531 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.800 addition tables and multiplication tables and so on. So if I believe that all 532 00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:30.960 truth is relative, and I believe that two plus two equals five, and 533 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:36.880 I get to not have to have grades or tests or anything, and I 534 00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:40.400 get to graduate from Oregon State schools, and then I get to be an 535 00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:45.320 Affirmative Action candidate and go into Oregon College into engineering, and we can no 536 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:50.519 longer grade those people, and so they become engineers, and they build bridges 537 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:55.679 based upon two plus two equals five. That's where we are in our society 538 00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:02.880 with tolerating people who don't understand fundamental truth. That's what I would say. 539 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.480 Does that make sense, Steve, that's to me, okay, wondering. 540 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:10.280 But John, there's a closet relatives is going to struggle with this. Yeah. 541 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.360 What worries me is that you think the government can figure out what the 542 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:19.679 fundamental truths are and then enforce I am much more confident that private civil society 543 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.960 can do it and keep the government as small as possible out of our hair 544 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.800 and let people fight out about what the fund No disagreement there. But like 545 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:30.320 Steve said, we need to begin denouncing this, and we need to not 546 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:35.639 We need not to be afraid, John, We on our side need not 547 00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.519 to be afraid to call people out and to say you are wrong, and 548 00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:45.079 here is why you are wrong, and not be afraid to stand absolutely on 549 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:46.760 the truth of the matter, and don't let somebody come along and say, 550 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.679 well, that's your truth, that's not your that's not my lived experience, 551 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:57.159 and all their other bull All right, all right, let's take a quick 552 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.719 break late one for our sponsors and then turn to the laws of war and 553 00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:09.280 just war as the applies at the moment. All right, let's turn to 554 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.840 what I say is a related subject, although it may not seem so. 555 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.800 And John, you brought this up, which is, what are the laws 556 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:20.320 of war? This is the kind of word that's being fought. Is I 557 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:24.159 actually think it's not that unusual. But you know, modern ill educated Americans 558 00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:29.119 think war means tanks driving across the field in France and not urban warfare like 559 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.400 we're seeing in Gaza right now. So why don't you go first, John, 560 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:35.280 And I mean, I've got thoughts on just word theory. Actually dusted 561 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.880 off my old Angelo code via book war Ends and Means, because it's a 562 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:43.199 useful guide in these things. But go ahead, Jesus Angelo is reaching back 563 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.280 from the grave to argue with me. I didn't sign up for this. 564 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:55.239 So I actually proposed listeners that we talk about some issues about war, because 565 00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:00.559 it's just the you know, the immediate event that and Lucretian ready referred to 566 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:04.559 this that gives rise to this. There are all these claims there should be 567 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:08.840 a cease fire, that Israel is the nation committing war crimes, that Israel 568 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.000 that was the victim of these attacks on October seventh is one engaged and you 569 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:19.599 know, an effort to wipe out a racial group genocide. And so I 570 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:24.280 thought this actually would make for a good opportunity to talk about two kinds of 571 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.519 laws of war. So one is when is it appropriate to use force? 572 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:36.920 You know, this is called use bellum and that you know for Latin lovers, 573 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:42.119 right, that means just justice or law and going to war to war. 574 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:46.599 And then the other question is use in below the law that should govern 575 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:52.800 or justice that should govern while you fight the war. And it goes back 576 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:57.599 thousands of years thinking about these two questions as separate. You know, it 577 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.840 does Israel, I think it does have the right to go to war and 578 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.000 defend itself. I think you hear in the critics of Israel some idea that 579 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.280 war itself is illegitimate. Right, Why does Israel have the right to go 580 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:16.159 into Gaza at all? And that to me, at least to me raised 581 00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:21.480 this I've always thought fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. I think liberals, 582 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.599 going back to Kant, have always thought, oh, peace is the natural 583 00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:29.880 state of human condition. Right, We're so I think that thinks this too, 584 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:36.039 right? Oh, and war is just this illegitimate interruption in peace violence, 585 00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.320 and we're never justified, or if it is, it's just you know, 586 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:44.800 these outbreaks that must be suppressed, whereas I think conservatives think, you 587 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.639 know, unfortunately, war is a permanent feature of the human condition and we're 588 00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:51.440 lucky to get these periods of peace that we get. Yeah, some of 589 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.559 them. Somebody says that peace is just the time period between war. Yeah, 590 00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:59.159 I forget it. Before you go on with this deeper theoretical discussion, 591 00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:00.599 John, I do want to off and point out because I think, I 592 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:06.559 honestly think it's more important than just the usual tread and exception, and that 593 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:10.559 is that many of the same people who are arguing that Israel should stop its 594 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:15.119 attack on Hammas, et cetera, et cetera, are also the same people 595 00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:20.559 who were arguing that what Hamas did was perfectly legitimate and appropriate because there was 596 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:28.679 a made up situation that they think has happened in Palestine. Okay, any 597 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.599 intelligent person knows that's crap. Yeah, this is so common. But that's 598 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.599 not the point. I just wanted to know. No, it is the 599 00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.920 side point. It is the point, because they would say, oh, 600 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:40.639 what the Palestinians did October seventh. Isn't war. They're not the ones breaching 601 00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:45.920 the priests. They're just resisting oppression and colonization by the Israelis. Even though 602 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:53.400 Israel, Israel withdrew from the and the Gaza Strip more than about was it 603 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:57.719 fifteen years ago? Almost now? Yeah, and it's self governing. And 604 00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.480 it's actually interesting if anyone's responsible in part for what's going on, as Egypt 605 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:04.800 and the other countries who've closed it off. But I mean, but that's 606 00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:08.360 part of their theory. Is these same liberals who believe this also would say 607 00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:13.840 that what Hamas did is in some way justified, which I find incredible. 608 00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:16.960 But then I think, you know, once you decide, as I do, 609 00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:20.800 that Israel has a right to defend itself, then there's a whole separate 610 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.880 question on how should a country at war conduct hostilities. So you hear this, 611 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:31.719 for example, does Israel have the right to essentially quarantine Gaza, you 612 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:36.960 know, to cut off electricity and water into the Gaza Strip. Does it 613 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.480 have the right to force civilians to move, or does it have the right 614 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:46.639 even to attack locations like the Alshifa hospital, like mosques and schools where Hamas 615 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:52.400 is operating where Hamas might have tunnels underneath and with their headquarters right if you 616 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.800 look at that's what Hamas has done. They have buried all of their may 617 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:06.199 military facilities underneath important civilian target not targets, important civilian buildings. That's a 618 00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:08.760 separate question. But that's why I thought it was interesting because I think, 619 00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:15.639 and Lucretia mentioned as part of the campaign against Israel is to use these kinds 620 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:20.679 of liberal values that only the West seems to obey against it, to constrain 621 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:27.239 us, to limit ourselves. And Israel's particularly vulnerable to this because Steve mentioned 622 00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:31.159 the Israel depends on the West for military and financial support to conduct the war 623 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:37.599 well and more legitimacy. Finally, but Lucretia, what you know, you're 624 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:39.079 all right, I spoke well, No, I agree with him, I 625 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:45.559 absolutely agree with him. And but even conservatives are starting to lose a little 626 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:50.719 sense of that. I think John, at least some conservatives where you know, 627 00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:54.760 something like what happened on nine to eleven, something like what happened on 628 00:48:55.760 --> 00:49:00.800 Pearl Harbor, something like what happened on October se evens I don't think that 629 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:06.280 there's a sense of proportionality that ought to be be brought to bear here. 630 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.760 Now that's not the same as talking about the laws of war, you know, 631 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:14.400 justice in war. But I get the sense that international law really wants 632 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:19.760 to push everything in that direction, which is to say, we will decide 633 00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:25.159 as an international whatever, can't call it an organization or body, what is 634 00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:30.159 appropriate for Israel to do in this particular case, maybe what was appropriate for 635 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:32.840 us to do after nine to eleven when in fact, being a nation, 636 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.920 being a nation state, how does the decoration to put it do all the 637 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:42.519 things that that that nations can do. One of those is to conduct war 638 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.719 and to provide for the safety of their people, because it's the most important 639 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:50.920 thing that they do. And you know, I suppose that you true acts 640 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:58.280 of barbarianism and savage a savagery like Hamas has you know, inflicted on the 641 00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:01.239 Israelis. The Israelis aren't doing that. If they were, of course they'd 642 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:07.000 be roundly denounced for it. But they and they won't because why because that 643 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:15.159 will lose them even more credibility on the international stage. I'm hobbs, how 644 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.400 easy and like you are in this sense, No, screw you. We 645 00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:22.880 did what we want to do, and I'd like to have your support, 646 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.440 and we'll concede where we absolutely have to have your support. But beyond that, 647 00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:28.599 you shut up and let us do what we need to do. See. 648 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.559 I always thought that on this kind of question, Hobbes was merely a 649 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:37.280 cruder restatement of thucinities. I remember with thucidities vers there's the Median debate, 650 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:40.639 should we just kill everybody we conquered or make them just slaves? Right? 651 00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:45.079 The Medion dialogues and the famous phrase the strong do what they will, the 652 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.599 week do what they must laws of war. In modern times, the problem 653 00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:52.679 is we've all become not us, we're the exceptions, but we've all become 654 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:57.119 contients and think that our good liberal intentions should be the cornerstone of international relations 655 00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:01.360 that only works between civilized country is that, as Locke put it, want 656 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:07.719 to do in their international relations? Well, commerce, but I'm thinking of 657 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.400 you know, the social compact, right, In other words, it's the 658 00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:14.519 extension the international fear of the ideas of social compact and natural rights, and 659 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:20.360 the old Greek distinction between civilized and barbarians still operates today, right, I 660 00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.280 think, And you know, the huge problems there Okay, so you're wait 661 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:27.440 a minute, back to lock You're saying that there are people who think the 662 00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:31.639 locky and ideal should should control here, but you're not saying you think it 663 00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:36.440 does. No. Well, no, remember what act. Let me read. 664 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:38.519 Let me take it from the top, so to speak. Locke says, 665 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:43.480 somewhere in a second treatise around book twenty or chapter twenty, people say, 666 00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:45.519 when has there ever been a state of nature? Isn't this purely theoretical, 667 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:50.840 he says, I answer that nations exist in a state of nature one 668 00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:52.920 to another, and princes are like the individuals in the state of nature. 669 00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:58.119 And so the implication there is is that if you're going to have prou international 670 00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:01.320 comedy, it will only be if nations enter something that looks like the social 671 00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:05.599 compact. I think that's one very simple way of putting it, and it 672 00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:10.079 works fine for civilized countries. Gaza is not a civilized country. That's point 673 00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:15.480 number one, right. The other one is John you really invoke just war 674 00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:21.800 theory, and Angelo has this to say that it applies. But this book, 675 00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.440 by the way, is thirty five years old. But here's a paragraph 676 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:29.480 that applies perfectly to what's going on. Discrimination means that armed forces should fight 677 00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:34.840 armed forces and not ravage the enemy's countryside, cities or economy. While it 678 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:38.199 is permitted to starve out an army. Blockades of whole countries, such as 679 00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:43.079 the ones that kept food from Germany and World Wars one and two, have 680 00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:49.039 traditionally been considered unjust means of warfare because they do not discriminate between combatants and 681 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.559 non combatants. Here, by the way, let me pause and say, 682 00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.960 when Israel cuts off electricity and cell phone service in Gaza, part of that 683 00:52:55.119 --> 00:53:00.760 is a military purpose, which is we know that, uh, you know, 684 00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:02.039 so the terrorists and all the rest of that. In Iraq and elsewhere, 685 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:07.039 they use cell phones to detonate remote bombs. They obviously use cell phones 686 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.840 to coordinate the movements of their their terrorists, and so that's a prig I 687 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:15.519 just want to interject a much more simpler point here, and that is if 688 00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:20.239 Gaza were capable of coming up with their own cell phone systems and their own 689 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:22.440 sake, then maybe they wouldn't This wouldn't even be an issue. View. 690 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.880 Why are we right? Why do you have to provide basic services to your 691 00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.079 enemy? Yeah, but let me continue with Angelo here. Yeah, let 692 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.360 me continue with Angelo here, because very much on point, by the same 693 00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:37.280 token, it has been a traditional rule of Western warfare that when an army 694 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:40.280 takes possession of a city with the intention of using it as a fortress by 695 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:45.119 which to fight another army, both armies must allow the civilian population of the 696 00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:50.440 city to depart in an orderly manner. We've got good, credible reports that 697 00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:57.239 who's preventing a lot of gossms from leaving are commas themselves? Right? So, 698 00:53:57.559 --> 00:54:00.280 in other words, to the last sentence here, another word which the 699 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:04.800 corollary of the rule that armies may not make war on cities full of civilians 700 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:08.800 is the rule that armies may not hide behind civilians. Well, who's doing 701 00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:13.079 that? We know who's doing that, right, And I go back before 702 00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:15.360 you go on, John, to where I think Steve's wrong about. So. 703 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:19.599 I don't think that Locke ever, Oh, you're right about everything, 704 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.760 but this one small point. I don't think Locke ever calls for a social 705 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:25.400 contract. I don't think Locke would in a million years be in favor of 706 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:30.400 something like the UN or the League of Nations or what have you. I 707 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:36.760 think that what Locke would say is that in the same way that human beings, 708 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:39.840 for Locke, in the state of nature are not in that war against 709 00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:45.199 all that the omniumbella omnis that Hobbs talks about, but that the state of 710 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:49.639 nature is not the state of war, but it is a state of Yeah, 711 00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.639 it's still there's still violence, there's still conflict, there's still people not 712 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.679 acting rationally according to the law of nature written in their hearts. I think 713 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:01.440 Locke would probably extend that to the international scene and say, no, there's 714 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:07.920 not going to be a social contract, but we can expect that some civilized 715 00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:10.639 nations will act in a civilized way, and they will see the benefit of 716 00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:19.400 being, of collaboration and cooperation those other things, and then the uncivilized barbarian 717 00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:23.320 nations will be outside of that and you'll have to go to war with them 718 00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:28.400 on occasion. I think that's what. I don't think that Locke and envisions 719 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.760 any kind of social contract on the international stage, because that's like the scariest 720 00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:37.880 thing I can imagine that. I mean, the I think the creature's right 721 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:45.639 about the excuse me that point, which is that this idea of international government 722 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:50.199 and communic nations, as Kant right, this federation of nations idea he has 723 00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:57.920 and John Lennon, yeah, just contanism for the masses. Yes, I 724 00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:02.800 like that job. But this is here's another I got pose this to you. 725 00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.199 I totally agree with you, and I do think that Al Shifa Hospital 726 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:10.679 is a legitimate target. And Israel actually goes farther than they have to under 727 00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:15.039 what should be the rules of war to write to let civilians leave. I 728 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:19.199 mean to the point where they even open up corridors for people, for civilians 729 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:22.440 to leave northern Gaza or to leave the hospital or Gaza city, and it's 730 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.760 actually Hamas that forces them to stay there. But let me ask you this 731 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:29.960 question, because you guys are civil war buffs, what do you think about 732 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:35.400 Sherman's burning down Atlanta in the March to the Sea, which was designed right, 733 00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:42.159 specifically necessarily, which was designed in part to destroy the South's economic capacity 734 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:46.760 to support the war, right where he deliberately civilian power revenge in that one 735 00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:53.679 either, but the right word I think that you know I was reading. 736 00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:58.840 I don't think Sherman ever says this outright, but I always thought Sherman's defense 737 00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:04.840 was it's far better for civilians that the war end faster that the longer you 738 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.280 draw this out, the more civilians will die, even though I have to 739 00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:13.440 destroy the economic capacity. Well, I mean, I mean, but what 740 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.239 do you think of that? What did you think about Sherman's March to the 741 00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:20.000 sea, What do you think about Sherman burning down Atlanta? Well, look, 742 00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:22.719 I mean this argument comes up, by the way, the argument just 743 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:27.280 made about saving civilian lives. That is one of the ultimate justifications for using 744 00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:30.800 the nuclear bomb and the war with Japan. I think the figure I've seen 745 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:36.159 civilian casualties. I think the figure I've seen is that the D Day invasions, 746 00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.119 or the first two weeks of our invasion of France in nineteen forty four, 747 00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:44.199 killed twenty thousand French civilians. And we do know that the bombing of 748 00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:46.719 Dresden was intended in part not only to take out rail yards, but also 749 00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:52.920 to destroy the will the German people to resist any further. There's good legitimate 750 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.440 controversy about whether it actually had that effect or whether it just enraged in the 751 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.639 hold out longer. I don't know, but the point is that was part 752 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:04.079 of the Sherman march to see you that's right, Yeah, that's I'm working 753 00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.239 my way backwards Lucretia, which is saying that that was the You know, 754 00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:09.480 there are a lot of motives there, but one of them is you destroy 755 00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:14.719 their capacity to carry on the war any longer. Maybe it was not necessary, 756 00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:17.639 but at the time this is again, you know, the whole Adam 757 00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:21.880 bomb questioned. People say, oh, you could have done a demonstration of 758 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:23.920 the bomb and some isolated island in the middle of the ocean and show to 759 00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:27.280 the Japanese. Well, I don't know, show them that you could actually 760 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.039 use it and that you could destroy their country. Is a more powerful demonstration 761 00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:32.840 of that when people argue forever about it, right, which is the same 762 00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:38.559 argument now being made by people that Israel should not destroy Hamas, which and 763 00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:45.199 I would say that the argument for destroying Hamas completely totally pushing them into the 764 00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:50.760 ground never to rise up again, is the same argument that Sherman made, 765 00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:55.360 and I think it has to be done. This is where I would say, 766 00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:58.639 Steve never did it. But I'll tie it back, because they know 767 00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:01.239 we're almost out of time. Tie it back to the first part of it. 768 00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:06.440 What's going to happen unfortunately, is Israel is going to be forced not 769 00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:12.719 to do that bye by international public opinion and and by public opinion in this 770 00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:19.400 country, the Biden administration is already completely caved on their support for continuing what's 771 00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:24.920 going on against Tomas in Gaza by the Israelis. It's just it's it's very 772 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:30.440 obvious that piece of you know what, uh how how I have to I 773 00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:36.119 have to sorry. There was a story yesterday about blink and Win saying it's 774 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:40.000 something stupid that Biden said, right, and this is this is one two 775 00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:46.920 three like that? Right ohe the video it's stunning, and Blinkin is clearly 776 00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:51.039 just losing his mind. Is up? Really, you know what, screw 777 00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:57.840 him by We have Biden because of the corruption that you know, sorry, 778 00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:00.239 you know what, what did he think we were going to get? Yeah, 779 01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.920 when he did everything in his power to keep that corrupting confidence se now 780 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.840 pedophile and not getting elected. Sorry, right, I'm done. Okay, 781 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:12.719 Well, all I was going to say is I'm not quite sure Biden has 782 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:15.840 been rhetorically pretty good. I know, behind the scenes lots of bad stuff. 783 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:20.280 But what I'm observing is this is a little extraneous to our main point 784 01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:25.760 is well, maybe you saw the video of the pro Hamas protesters demonstrating outside 785 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:30.159 the Democratic National Committee and banging on the doors, and they had to call 786 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.559 out the riot police. And I'm sitting here getting Oh, and the Democratic 787 01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:39.559 Party is having their convention next year in Chicago. I could see this. 788 01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:44.119 It's ripping the Democratic Party apart, which I thoroughly enjoy. Was like, 789 01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:47.440 doesn't this remind you about the way Vietnam rip? Yes, exactly. Yes. 790 01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:57.199 So we talked sometime recently about the primaries not being you know, a 791 01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:01.880 permanent part of the nomination and the scene and so on. Wouldn't it be 792 01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:07.119 funny if Biden stays in the race. He's still president, but he's completely 793 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:12.719 you know, diapered up and drooling and so forth, more so than now. 794 01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:17.400 And we have a broker convention in Chicago. What would it be. 795 01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:23.119 I can do the math sixty five years, sixty sixty fifty five years later. 796 01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:29.760 Yeah, I think it'd be hilarious. A broker Democratic convention, riots 797 01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:34.599 in the streets. Well, there is that could happen. There is, 798 01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:36.559 by the way, Well I want to I don't want to go into it 799 01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:39.840 now because we're out of time. There is a process for replacing a nominee 800 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:43.960 at the convention. I just learned about it yesterday and we'll go through it 801 01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:45.519 next time. We'll talk about it. I'm right, yeah, so this 802 01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:51.000 is this is already being talked about. So I'm loving this. I wish 803 01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:53.559 we had lots more time, but I'm going to stack with some yeah avalon 804 01:01:53.679 --> 01:02:00.360 bees that I think are fairly relevant to today. We'll start for with the 805 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:06.159 go backwards. After five minutes with Biden, she gives order to invade Taiwan, 806 01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:15.320 the same line Californian set up President g dummy. So Newsom will keep 807 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:19.719 the cities clean, I know, and that's something, Yeah, it really 808 01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.440 was. Did you notice the city You've been in San Francisco, John covering 809 01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:24.599 Apec? We didn't time to talk about this, did you notice talk about 810 01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:29.840 that? Yeah? Oh no, this city is definitely cleaner. So when 811 01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:31.440 I was on Fox they were asking me about this, I said, I 812 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:38.639 watch the president of China would just stay for a few more months. It's 813 01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:44.800 embarrassing, how I mean, so embarrassing and obvious how much they spent time 814 01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:46.719 cleaning up the city. And this was you know, so Governor Newsom actually 815 01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:51.400 got asked this at a press conference, and this is such a His lame 816 01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:54.639 response was, well, don't you clean up the house before you have company 817 01:02:54.719 --> 01:03:00.119 over for dinner. I know, amazing, Thank you. You know, 818 01:03:00.199 --> 01:03:04.119 what's the homeless people? So that's been so I've actually, uh, you 819 01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:09.079 know, been I got one of these fancy media passes to go around and 820 01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:14.519 then a courtesy of Fox News by the way, thank you very much. 821 01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:17.480 And so I've been asking all the security guys. I'm like where, because 822 01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:20.880 you know, I would go to a spot, you know where there were 823 01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:23.400 a lot of homeless people right downtown near the convention Center, which is where 824 01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:27.360 the APEC meets supplace. I said, where did all the homeless people get 825 01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:31.719 put? Where are they? And so one guy claimed that they've all been 826 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:36.559 moved basically to another part of the city, and that when all the barricades 827 01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:38.239 come down, which is this weekend, they're all going to be allowed to 828 01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:43.079 come back and it'll just be you know, so the state of nature has 829 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:46.039 just been temporarily halted, but it will soon return in just a few days. 830 01:03:46.519 --> 01:03:49.239 All right, Okay, so Steve says, we have to go. 831 01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:55.639 I have to do two sorry. Okays found in Gaza hospital were strictly for 832 01:03:55.800 --> 01:04:04.239 medicinal use, Yes and Palestinian at hospital for colonoscopy. Not sure about this 833 01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:11.280 doctor holding grenade launcher. Sorry, oh I like that one because well, 834 01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:14.280 okay, I don't have a Kamala news I don't have all right, I 835 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:16.480 don't have a Camala quote, but I have a little news thing the New 836 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:20.000 York Times making much of a poll. I guess that was just released that 837 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:25.440 shows that there are there is a segment of voters who don't want to vote 838 01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:30.719 for Joe Biden but would vote for Kamala Harris for president. And this five 839 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:35.840 percent of the electorate in a close election is important enough for Biden to keep 840 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:40.519 Harris on the ticket. Oh that's an inside job. All right, John, 841 01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:44.320 send us out for this week. All right, everybody is great having 842 01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:47.559 you this week. Always drink your whiskey. Meat. Let's go, Brandon 843 01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:51.480 and Steve God save the queen man. Bye bye, Yang, talk to 844 01:04:51.519 --> 01:05:10.639 you next week. Bye bye. Absolutely, Oh, Gail, why absolutely 845 01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:19.400 sick again? You'll wow? What absolutely? Man? Listen to me, 846 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:36.360 Spie constantly dis job listener one Babies. Ricochet joined the conversation