1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:48,640 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:48,679 --> 00:00:55,359 I'm Bill Thomas. Today we're discussing the new HBO series Burden of Proof, 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,359 which dropped on June sixth, and we are very excited to be talking about 12 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:03,719 this case. So let's go ahead and dive right in. Bill, do 13 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,680 you remember how this case came onto our radar. It's interesting. The case, 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,239 which involves the disappearance of a fifteen year old girl, Jennifer Pandos took 15 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:18,920 place in February nineteen eighty seven, just a few months after my sister Kathy 16 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,359 Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski were murdered in Williamsburg. Really wasn't on our 17 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:30,719 radar. Yeah, I have the fuzziest of recollections that I had heard Jennifer 18 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,920 Pandos's name before, but it was about it, and it's only a couple 19 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,840 of weeks ago. When listeners to Mind over Murder asked us, have we 20 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,280 seen this new HBO documentary Burden of Proof about the Jennifer Pandos case. You 21 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,959 and I both looked at each other and said, why the heck don't we 22 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,959 know more about this case? It was very odd because you would think that 23 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:57,599 this is something we would be hyper aware of, especially a kareem as close 24 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:01,560 as it did to Kathy and Beckys. The only way that I was in 25 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:06,239 any way familiar with it was when some of our listeners reached out and said, 26 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:08,400 Hey, you guys watching this. I had heard that there was an 27 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,400 HBO series about a case from this area. My dad sent me a little 28 00:02:13,439 --> 00:02:17,280 something, but my dad doesn't typically write long, prolific messages to me. 29 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:22,159 He was like, you're watching this HBO thing, and I said about what 30 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,000 he goes, I don't know some case here in Williamsburg. I was like, 31 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:25,840 you're gonna have to narrow that down down. He's like, I don't 32 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:28,919 know some girl named Jennifer. And I was like, okay, so this 33 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,639 doesn't He'll thank you, dad, But I just put it out of my 34 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:34,560 mind. And then when somebody wrote to us and said are you paying attention 35 00:02:34,599 --> 00:02:38,560 to the Jennifer Pandos documentary that, I was like, Oh, that's what 36 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,560 my dad was talking about. Okay, the mystery of your dad's clipped message 37 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:49,800 becomes a little clearer. It still baffled both of us, but we said, 38 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,039 wait a minute. This is a few miles away from the Colonial Parkway 39 00:02:54,159 --> 00:02:59,199 where it appears that Kathy and Becky and the other victims in the Colonial Parkway 40 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,360 murders, least some of them were killed. And it's only a few months 41 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,800 after the first incident in October nineteen eighty six Kathy and Beking's murder, and 42 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:14,240 it's just a matter of months then before September nineteen eighty seven, when Robin 43 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:19,199 Edwards and David Nbling are murdered. So it's right in between two of the 44 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,319 Colonial Parkway murders. As near as we can figure. One of the reasons 45 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,960 why we didn't know much about the Jennifer Pendos case was because it was so 46 00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:32,719 low profile at the time in February nineteen eighty seven, And as the show 47 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,639 unfolds, it becomes clearer that the case was always treated as a missing person's 48 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:44,759 case and as a teenage runaway. Jennifer's only fifteen years old at the time. 49 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,319 Excuse me for making you feel old for one second, but I would 50 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,479 like to put in context for our viewers that in nineteen eighty seven I was 51 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,400 six years old, so I would have no reason to reflect on that is 52 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,639 anything other than I was six. But I did wonder why, in all 53 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:05,520 of the reporting that we've read over the years, no one had ever mentioned, 54 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,680 at least not within the stuff that I read or the stuff that you've 55 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,800 read. In addition to Colonial Parkway murders happenings, there was also a teenager 56 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,800 who went missing. I just assumed that we would have come across that at 57 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,839 some point, but we haven't, or at least I haven't. No, 58 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:25,360 it feels a little odd, it does, and given the fact that we've 59 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:29,639 discussed and you and I have researched, along with the Colonial Parkway murders, 60 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:34,680 families and others, a significant amount on people involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, 61 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,720 and then as what you've christened the Colonial Parkway murders, adjacent cases, 62 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:45,879 cases that are just as serious, just as heartbreaking, but weren't considered part 63 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,879 of the core for double homicides and disappearances in what we call the Colonial Parkway 64 00:04:50,959 --> 00:04:57,199 murders, mostly murders of individuals as opposed to couples, and a number of 65 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,399 those cases, some of which are right smack dab in middle of the series 66 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:06,319 that make up the Colonial Parkway murders, are also unsolved, and several of 67 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:13,720 them are quite possibly linked through the liberty security connection that we've discussed here on 68 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,240 mind Over Murder. Jennifer Pandos was never part of that mix. Oh hmmm. 69 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:25,279 It's so odd, And especially once I processed what my dad was saying 70 00:05:25,319 --> 00:05:28,759 about, Hey have you heard about this HBO series? It really did get 71 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:32,839 me thinking, if this case is serious enough for an HBO series, why 72 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,240 the hell haven't I heard about it before? And the only reason I can 73 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:40,839 think of, And I was discussing this with my roommate who does remember the 74 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:44,879 case. She said she felt like what was going on the Parkway kind of 75 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,920 sucked all the air out of the room, And I suppose that's one way 76 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,439 of looking at it. But really, at this point, it was just 77 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,120 Kathy and Becky's murder that had happened. It wasn't like the whole entire series 78 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,480 of cases had happened. So I'm not really sure what accounts for this other 79 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:00,879 than the fact but I think a lot of people looked at it as a 80 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:05,240 missing person's case, teenage run away, and we haven't heard a whole lot 81 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:12,319 about it since then. So this HBO series Burden of Proof focuses on the 82 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,920 February nineteen eighty seven disappearance of Jennifer Pando. So walk us through what we 83 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,600 know about what happened. So, Jennifer Pando's fifteen year old girl. She 84 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:26,519 went to Maya alma mater, Lafayette High School, which at that point was 85 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:29,360 one of only two high schools in Williamsburg. There was Lafayette and there was 86 00:06:29,399 --> 00:06:31,839 Britain. There are more now. So Jennifer was fifteen years old, went 87 00:06:31,879 --> 00:06:36,319 to Lafayette High School. She had a boyfriend at the time, sounds like 88 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,920 they were on again, off again, and at that point of her disappearance, 89 00:06:41,519 --> 00:06:45,560 it sounded like they were off again. It wasn't really made explicitly clear 90 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,519 in the series, but she did have a boyfriend at the time, Tony 91 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:54,160 Tobler. She's just this pretty standard fifteen year old girl. She had friends, 92 00:06:54,439 --> 00:07:00,120 she had school, she babysat for somebody, and that person who's she 93 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,160 babysat forwould actually come into play a little bit later as a suspect in her 94 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:11,040 disappearance. An evening in February nineteen eighty seven, Jennifer was last seen talking 95 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,759 on the phone in her room, as teenagers are wont to do. Her 96 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:18,360 father came in to tell her to get off the phone. They had words 97 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:23,439 of the heated variety, and then that was the last time that anybody heard 98 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,480 of Jennifer Pandos. She was talking to her friend Corey. Dad said get 99 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,639 off the phone. She got off the phone. And the next morning and 100 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:34,240 when Jennifer's mother, Margie, came downstairs to Jen's room, she found the 101 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:40,439 door locked. She asked her husband Ron to break it down because she couldn't 102 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,879 get a response from Jennifer, and when she walked into the room was absolutely 103 00:07:44,959 --> 00:07:48,399 immaculate, nothing seemed to be missing, bed was made, and on the 104 00:07:48,439 --> 00:07:55,439 bed was a rather suspicious and odd I don't want to call it a ransom 105 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,720 note because it doesn't ask for money. How should we characterize this note? 106 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,639 Bill? It's a very strangely written note. It's very prominently featured in the 107 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:09,040 series, and actually, having reached out and now to some of the family 108 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,920 members and others who are much more expert in the case, it's actually one 109 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:18,720 of the most essential pieces of evidence remaining in the Pendo's case. I'm running 110 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:24,079 away note as if written by a third party, by another person. The 111 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:30,720 note is extremely odd and goes into some length about Jennifer needs to get away 112 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,960 and she needs a break, and that she's going to be with an older 113 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:41,120 man who represents a father figure to her. The note is truly bizarre, 114 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:46,360 and a significant amount of analysis has gone into looking at the note, and 115 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:52,960 there have been a number of people whose names have been mentioned as possible authors 116 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,120 of the note. It does appear that someone has made an attempt to disguise 117 00:08:56,159 --> 00:09:01,200 their handwriting, perhaps but writing with their non domin a hand. I'm right 118 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,960 handed. Therefore, I don't even know if I could do it. No. 119 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,039 I was looking at that. I'm like, I couldn't write that with 120 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,559 my left hand. No way. I don't think I've ever tried to write 121 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,320 anything more than a character or two with my left hand. I'm not sure 122 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:16,639 I could do it. I know some people that can. It does seem 123 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:22,000 to be this very oddly written note on a piece of notebook paper, yeah 124 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,600 ripped out journal torn from a notebook in red ink. If I'm not mistaken, 125 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:31,600 yep, reridd ink. It offers this very odd syntax, and then 126 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,200 it feels like part of it's written from the perspective of the person she's going 127 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,480 to be running away with. In the latter part of the note, it 128 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:45,440 shifts back, almost as if it's in Jennifer's voice, asking them to put 129 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:50,240 the money they owe her into her bank account, which they did not do, 130 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:54,679 to not contact the police. They did not contact the police, which 131 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,279 is one of the first of a number of odd decisions that the Pendo's family 132 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,480 made. Further that, it reminds them to please cancel her doctor's appointment for 133 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:09,039 Yeah later on that following week. So it's got this odd mix of responsible 134 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,759 fifteen year old reminding them oh, since i'm running away, please cancel my 135 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,399 doctor's appointment to please put the money you owe me in my account. And 136 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:20,480 oh, by the way, I'm running away with an older man. The 137 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:26,080 whole thing is just very weird, and the way it goes back and forth 138 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,639 between appearing to have been written by the companion but also by Jennifer herself. 139 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,120 Yeah, it starts in third person, and let me pull up the text 140 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:43,840 of it here. It starts with mister and missus pandos your daughter's with me. 141 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,440 She's fine, she's having some problems and needs time away. And then 142 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:54,519 it shifts to I'm fine. I just need time to think. Both of 143 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,840 you. Please go to work tomorrow because I will try to call you. 144 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,600 I won't call you you at home, only at one of y'all's work. 145 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:05,639 Do not call the police, you say y'all, She says y'all's. And 146 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,440 by the way, they did do that. They did go to work. 147 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,919 Yeah, they went to work. Do not call the police. I can 148 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,080 easily find out if you do. I may never come back home. Don't 149 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,240 tell my friends about this, Just tell them that I'm sick. And that's 150 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:22,639 not all of the note. That's only a portion of it. The only 151 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,440 thing that I'm seeing and all this reporting is the portions of the note that 152 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:31,679 I read. That is not the entirety of the note. That is a 153 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:35,360 portion of it. But you'll notice it starts in third person and then switches 154 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,559 to first, which is interesting. Yeah, as you had mentioned earlier, 155 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:46,399 Bill, the parents followed some of but not all, of the instructions listed 156 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,720 in the note. For example, they did go to work, they did 157 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,000 not call the police immediately, but they didn't put money in her account. 158 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,559 And Stephen, Jennifer's brother, actually made a point of actually asking his parents 159 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,240 about that later in the documentary why did you follow some of the instructions but 160 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,679 not all of the instructions? Like why did you wait to call the police? 161 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:11,080 So there's definitely some questions that come up the first time that you see 162 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,639 the note, and then the parent's response really is quite odd. Now, 163 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,799 granted I don't have kids, and because you're the parent of the two of 164 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:24,720 us, you're better equipped to answer the question of what you would do if 165 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,240 you found such a note from your child. I don't think you would delay 166 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,000 calling the police, am I right on that? There's so many things that 167 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:37,200 mister and missus Pandos did at the time of Jennifer's disappearance, which makes no 168 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:43,240 sense, and a good portion of the first couple of episodes of Burden Approve 169 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:48,240 focus on Stephen Pandos, Jennifer's brother, who's about three to four years older 170 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,840 than she is. He was a college student at the time of her disappearance. 171 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,480 He is actually the protagonist of most of the story that unfolds over four 172 00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:03,480 episodes, and a lot of the questions that are being asked are being put 173 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:07,720 forward by Stephen. He is incredibly frustrated and even suspicious. He believes that 174 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:13,039 it's quite possible that his father may have been involved in Jennifer's disappearance and that 175 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,480 his mother may have been involved in a cover up. He really bears down 176 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,480 hard and understandably on all the very odd decisions that they made at the time 177 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:31,639 of her disappearance, and even afterward he's constantly asking his mother, and then 178 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,039 later he confronts his father as well, why did you do these things? 179 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,840 I had mentioned to you over the weekend, Kristen, when we were discussing 180 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,480 the series as we both watched it. There are plenty of times when I 181 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:48,799 look back on my parents' reaction to my sister Kathy's murder, and I have 182 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,519 said on Mind over Murder and elsewhere that there are significant mistakes that my family, 183 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:00,639 that Thomas family made in the follow up to my sister's murder investigation, 184 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,919 which obviously is still unsuccessful to date, including how my father interacted with the 185 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,639 FBI and other issues. My point is not to throw my parents under the 186 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,559 bus. They did the best they could under incredibly difficult circumstances. But I 187 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,759 think we failed to be as aggressive as we needed to be with the FBI, 188 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,519 and I think we placed too much faith in law enforcement only until we 189 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:26,799 move forward to two thousand and nine when I got much more involved in the 190 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,960 case. And I'm not one hundred percent certain every move I've made has been 191 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,320 as smart as it could have been, either, because there have been lots 192 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:43,320 of moments of frustration. Stephen Pandos finds himself reviewing these very profoundly odd decisions 193 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,279 that his parents made. Information they shared with law enforcement, and then also 194 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:54,600 key pieces of information they did not share yeah with law enforcement, and some 195 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:58,440 of the things that unfold over the four episodes. You end up shocked, 196 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:03,360 like what they only brought these things forward thirty something years later, when the 197 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:09,080 case is beyond cold and their daughter's been missing for three decades. Interesting because 198 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:16,240 now that we know so many profilers, police experts and psychologists and experts in 199 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:20,840 this field. I try to be very mindful about the fact that, as 200 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:26,080 you have said as well, not everybody reacts the same way to grief and 201 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,600 to trauma and various other things, and I try to keep that in mind 202 00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:35,600 when I'm evaluating the way that other people respond to crimes as much as I 203 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,519 was sitting there telling myself, Okay, you can't judge them for these decisions 204 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,879 because you don't know what you would do if you were in that same situation, 205 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,279 and there's a certain amount of leeway in that for me, Like I 206 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,000 try very hard not to be judgmental about things like that, but definitely, 207 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:58,519 as you're seeing Steven Pandos on the screen interacting with his parents and trying to 208 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:03,320 come to his own sort of conclusions about why someone acted the way they did, 209 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,960 I would find myself going, Okay, I think that is really weird. 210 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,200 I think it's strange that they responded to some of the instructions in the 211 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,600 note but not all of them, and that one of the instructions they followed 212 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,559 was don't call the police. It is really hard knowing everybody that we know 213 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:22,159 who says don't second guest people and the way that they respond, because not 214 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,360 everybody responds in the same way. I'm also sitting here watching this as a 215 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,360 connoisseur of true crime and going that was a stupid way to respond. It's 216 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:36,440 an interesting push pull to have in your head to respond as a viewer in 217 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,360 one way, but also to try to be understanding as a victim's advocate in 218 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:42,799 another. I don't feel like I was very successful when I was watching this 219 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:48,120 series in being as mindful of how the parents were responding as maybe I should 220 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:55,960 have been agreed, but I was struggling mightily. I actually found myself, 221 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,399 I don't do this all that often. Were you yelling at the TV to 222 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:07,759 DNA because I couldn't believe the idea that you're not going to reach out to 223 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,480 law enforcement. Your fifteen year old daughter has disappeared, and there's a bizarre 224 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,039 no way around this bizarre note left. The way the note is structured, 225 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,039 it appears to have been written by two different people. You could make a 226 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:27,240 case that either your daughter is trying to mislead you or someone else is trying 227 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:32,119 to throw you off the scent. Either way, it's not good. And 228 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,599 the idea that they didn't immediately pick up the phone and call law enforcement. 229 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,279 In this case, this would have been the James City County Police Department. 230 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:47,400 The idea that they wouldn't call them immediately is just mind blowing. And then 231 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,759 we don't want to reveal all the twists and turns that happened in Burden of 232 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:55,079 Proof because we do orge to watch it. If you don't have HBO, 233 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,519 I'll say, find a friend with HBO and say we need to have a 234 00:17:57,559 --> 00:18:02,839 watch party here at your house, because this television series is very much worth 235 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,680 watching. Stephen Pando's journey asking these questions and looking for answers and over the 236 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:15,480 course of four episodes, and it's actually amazingly shot over a seven year period. 237 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:22,920 That was crazy to me. This whole series started when Stephen Pandos reached 238 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,759 out to documentary filmmaker Cynthia Hill, who's the director of this series. He 239 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:32,680 saw another television series she'd done on domestic violence, which was quite good and 240 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,559 then had come out in twenty fourteen. He reached out to her in twenty 241 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,519 fifteen, and then they finally connected discussed the case, and so the first 242 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,160 interviews. The layout of the show follows roughly their interviews in chronological order, 243 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:51,839 but the interviews start in twenty sixteen. He's highly suspicious of his father. 244 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,680 He believes his father may be involved in his sister's disappearance, and he believes 245 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,079 that the mother knows more than she's sang. They are the only two kids 246 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:07,079 in that family, so he's the only surviving offspring. He has dedicated himself 247 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,880 to searching for answers. You actually experience his own journey, and you see 248 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,559 his thinking change over the years. He starts off in one place and then 249 00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:23,640 ends up learning a lot more about his sister's disappearance. There's a lot of 250 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:30,880 frustrating moments for Steven Pendos, who struggles, I'm sure off camera, but 251 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:36,000 on camera as well with Cynthia Hill and her crew there recording his interactions with 252 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:41,880 law enforcement, current investigators, retired investigators, forensics people, the Commonwealth attorney. 253 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,519 And there's a lot of very interesting twists and turns in the case. 254 00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:52,759 But I think the most compelling aspect of Burden of Proof is watching his thinking 255 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:59,599 change as he learns more about the circumstances of his younger sister's disappearance. The 256 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,160 I got to the end of the first episode, all I could think was, 257 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,079 oh my god, there are so many similarities between Bill and Steven. 258 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:10,079 Honest to god. I reached the end of the first episode and I was 259 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:12,440 like, Wow, these guys have a lot to bond over. And actually, 260 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:17,279 what I mean you've said before it is the club that nobody wants to 261 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,920 join. And of course, like that is so true. Nobody would ever 262 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,079 want to join this club. But the two of you have so much in 263 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:29,279 common it's eerie. And actually, when I reached out to the filmmaker to 264 00:20:29,319 --> 00:20:32,880 see if she wanted to appear on the podcast, the first thing she said 265 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:36,240 was, Wow, Bill and Stephen have a lot in common. It was 266 00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:38,240 like, yes, they do. They have a ton in common. You've 267 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:44,119 got two brothers who lost their sisters within months of each other. I feel 268 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,200 awful for Stephen because he doesn't have his sister's remains, he doesn't know where 269 00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:52,720 she is, he doesn't know what happened to her. I feel just horrible 270 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,079 for him going through that. And both of you guys are going through this 271 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,960 process of navigating the criminal justice system. And the more that I was watching, 272 00:21:00,279 --> 00:21:03,200 the more that I was like, he's going through the same thing Bill's 273 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,359 been through. Oh look at that. Oh look law enforcement stonewalling familiar. 274 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:15,119 Oh look there's it's taking forever to get lab results. Boy, that's familiar. 275 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:18,599 I felt like I was sitting there ticking off boxes. Yeah, going 276 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,240 yep, watched Bill go through this, Yep, watch that too, Yep, 277 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:26,480 I've seen this as well. It's sad to note that's a common denominator 278 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,920 of your experiences, but also is it almost comforting a little bit to know 279 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,880 that you're not the only person who's gone through it to the level that you 280 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:40,119 have not exactly all. Yeah, I don't think comforting is a right word. 281 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,279 I watched the show with Pamela, my partner, who is not a 282 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:48,960 big true crime fan. She'll watch it occasionally, she's not as dedicated to 283 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,119 true crime and true crime media as I am. I said several times, 284 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,599 and so did she out loud as we watched the series. That sounds familiar. 285 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,759 Where have we heard that before? There's so much and there's the lost 286 00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:07,559 evidence, and then there's the misfiled evidence and what appears to be foot dragging 287 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:15,279 by law enforcement, lack of information sharing, a rotation of case agents through 288 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,880 the process. Several different agents speak on camera and actually are quite good. 289 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:26,160 What happens in law enforcement is that people move on, or they retire or 290 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:32,920 whatever. So much of it sounded so familiar, and Steven's frustrations are just 291 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:40,400 so on display for you. His personal journey is among the most interesting things 292 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,519 that happen in the series. You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be 293 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:57,160 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mindover Murder. 294 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,799 Something that we've never talked about with the Colonial Parkway murders, and this 295 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,119 occurs in the Burden of Proof documentary, is that Stephen becomes aware of the 296 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:14,960 fact that a grand jury proceeding has taken place. Grand jury proceedings are a 297 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:19,960 secret. He finds it incredibly frustrating, as do I, that grand jury 298 00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:26,279 proceedings have taken place in our respective cases, but no information is shared, 299 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,839 so that until someone's actually charged in a court of law, which is an 300 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:37,240 open process, the grand jury step is secret, and that means secret from 301 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,839 family members as well. And Stephen Pando says something to the filmmaker through gritted 302 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:48,000 teeth. I think I wish someone had told me that. Even when he 303 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,039 says it, I realized he's not just talking about law enforcement when he says 304 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:56,599 that. It turns out that Cynthia Hill and her team had become aware of 305 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:03,160 this as filmmaker that obviously was to tip from a source, and they were 306 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,000 able to track who some of the participants were in this grand jury proceeding. 307 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:12,000 Yes, and Stephen says, I wish someone had told me that. Now 308 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:18,119 I understand where he's coming from. And at the same time, his criticism, 309 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,400 if you will, isn't just of law enforcement. At that point, 310 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,839 he actually seems to be criticizing the documentary film crew because they haven't even shared 311 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,240 the fact that they are aware of the fact that a grand jury proceeding has 312 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:36,599 taken place in relation to his sister's disappearance, which means at that point they're 313 00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:42,319 at least exploring the idea of suspects being identified and perhaps charged in the Jennifer 314 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:49,799 Panda's disappearance. There's some very striking moments, and watching his journey was very 315 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:53,039 interesting for me on a personal level. But I think anyone who has a 316 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:59,440 heart is going to identify with all that this man has gone through. And 317 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,319 it's interesting to because the two of us, as well as all the other 318 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,160 family members in the Colonial Parkway case, we also have gone through the process 319 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,680 of having a documentary made about this case. What was it? It was 320 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,519 about three I want to say three months of shooting, but it wasn't that 321 00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:18,599 like it was. I do remember we had a very busy time when the 322 00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:22,839 filmmakers were here in Williamsburg. Because you and I attended as much of the 323 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,559 shooting as was allowable by our schedules. You were there for more of it 324 00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:33,640 than I was, and it's an intense experience. I cannot imagine what it 325 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:40,599 is like to be shooting a documentary for seven years, to have this be 326 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,079 a part of your life, to have a film crew following you as you 327 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,680 were going through what is a very personal and emotional time, as you are 328 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,720 having to have some pretty uncomfortable conversations with your parents and your significant others, 329 00:25:55,039 --> 00:26:00,400 and as you're trying to interview people and talk about your beloved sister who is 330 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,720 now gone and you have no idea about who what actually happened to her. 331 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:08,079 That's got to be very difficult. And to have a film crew watching your 332 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,240 every move. That's got to be rough. We didn't have that exact experience. 333 00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:15,680 We had times where we had to be at a set. Okay, 334 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,160 sit down on the chair, talk to us about this. They're asking questions. 335 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,839 We never had anything as candid as that boy. I felt for him, 336 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,680 though. That's got to be so tough to be going through this really 337 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,960 traumatic, awful experience and you're doing it on camera for everyone to see. 338 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:37,160 Yeah, and Stephen Pandos is also going through a very unique experience in that 339 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,720 a good portion of the first couple of episodes, he strongly suspects his father 340 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,920 is directly responsible for his sister's disappearance. He believes his father, who is 341 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,759 a man who has issues, is a Vietnam VET, he has PTSD and 342 00:26:55,319 --> 00:27:00,599 was very abusive towards Stephen himself, who's, as I mentioned, nearly four 343 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:07,720 years older than his sister. A significant portion of Stephen's efforts are trying to 344 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:15,200 convince his mother to step forward and provide information which he believes, in his 345 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:19,519 heart of hearts, that she has that she knows what happened to Jennifer, 346 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,799 that she helped cover it up, or at a minimum, has much more 347 00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:30,559 knowledge of her disappearance than she's ever said. He is pressuring her. And 348 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:36,519 so those moments which occur in one on one scenes with Stephen and his mother, 349 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:44,759 Margie, as well as through police interrogation. Those on camera moments are 350 00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:51,680 just riveting because you keep thinking Margie's going to step forward and admit that her 351 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,960 abusive ex husband they are now divorced, is directly responsible for their daughter's disappearance, 352 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,079 and you keep thinking Stephen's going to convince her. Lead investigator Wendy Reid, 353 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,920 who's now retired, is going to push the mother to the point where 354 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:15,039 she confesses, yes, I know what happened. And there are some very 355 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:22,680 odd things that Stephen and Jennifer's mother says that lead you to believe that she 356 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:26,799 knows more than she's saying. And then at the same time, their father, 357 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,720 Ron is quoted and then later shows up in the documentary, and some 358 00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:36,759 of the things he said sound like they're right up to the edge of a 359 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:41,079 confession. He's saying, theoretically, if I killed my daughter, who says 360 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:45,400 these kind of things, yeah, the hypothetically I pushed her down, she 361 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,319 hit her head and she died. I was like, what the he who 362 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,759 says that it says that who puts that forward to their son? Hypothetically, 363 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,079 I shoved her her, she hit her head, she did like, Oh 364 00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:03,359 my god. Awful for Steven. And that really is just an emotion that 365 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,759 I continue to feel through the whole entire four episodes. What must it be 366 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,759 like not only to have lost your sister, but to think that your parents 367 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:12,359 did it, or that one parent did it and the other is complicit in 368 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,640 it. And he says at one point to Cynthia Hill, he's in a 369 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,519 car at some point or another after talking to his mom, and she asked, 370 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:25,519 how did you feel about that? And he says, I feel like 371 00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:29,720 I don't have a family. Yeah. That's God. That's got to be 372 00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:33,279 rough. That's got to be wrenching. That's awful. He's lost his sister 373 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,319 and he thinks his parents had something to do with it. That's got to 374 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,279 be just the worst feeling in the world. I can't even begin to come 375 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:45,400 to any sort of point of comparison for that, what that must feel like. 376 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,200 I spent a lot of time watching this documentary and going, my god, 377 00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:52,400 I just feel so awful for him, and I just hope that there 378 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,559 is something over the next couple of months or years that eventually gives him the 379 00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:02,319 answers that he is looking for for Jennifer, and I wish that for everybody 380 00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:04,880 who currently has a missing family member, because the not knowing, we know 381 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,799 that it's the not knowing that's the worst. One of the challenges I think 382 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,799 with this case is that there's so little information. One of the things you 383 00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:18,599 and I discussed off air that I think is worth getting into, Kristen, 384 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:23,599 is there's so little evidence in this case. There is a short list of 385 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:30,720 potential suspects beyond Ron Pandos the father. One of the things that becomes key 386 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:37,279 here is that at the time of Jennifer's disappearance, the family was renting a 387 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:44,240 very nice condo in a complex called the Kings Mill Resorts in Williamsburg. I'd 388 00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:48,680 heard it referenced when we were down there shooting the television series for the Lover's 389 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:56,720 Lane Murders covering the Colonial Parkway case. I didn't quite understand how their life 390 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:03,440 in this gated community with gard cards and a limited number of points of ingress 391 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,400 and egress could be so significant, and I actually thought they should have covered 392 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,880 more of this in the documentary talk to us a little bit about kings Mill 393 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:18,119 and why it would be difficult to get in and out of there to do 394 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,000 harm to Jennifer or to assist Jennifer in running away. King's Mill is and 395 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,359 it's reference to the documentary. It is the premier gated community in Williamsburg. 396 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,880 And there are a couple of these communities where you are only able to access 397 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:34,880 the people who live in it by going through reguardgate. That kings Mill is 398 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:41,200 definitely the biggest of those and the best established of those. Everybody's favorite hometown 399 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,119 musician Bruce Hornsby, for example, lives in kings Mill. Would be presidential 400 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:52,000 assassin John Hinckley lived in kings Mill with his parents before the assassination and move 401 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:56,920 back in with them after the attempted assassination. It is the home to the 402 00:31:56,119 --> 00:32:00,440 very wealthy in Williamsburg. And there are only two ways to get into Kingsmel. 403 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,720 You access King's Mill through a guard gate. There are two entrances. 404 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:09,000 One is on Route one ninety nine and one is on Route sixty near to 405 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:13,319 Bush Gardens, which is our theme park here in Williamsburg, next to the 406 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,799 Eneiserbusch Brewery. So to get into King's Mill. And I know this because 407 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:21,759 my family has friends in King's Mill, so I spent a great deal of 408 00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:24,480 time in there over the years. The way that you get into King's Mill 409 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:29,319 is you pull up to the guard gate and they ask you where are you 410 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,559 going? And you have to give a specific not only name, but also 411 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,359 the address. So I'm going to go see Jennifer Pandos in Archer's need, 412 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,599 I believe is where they were. You would have to give an address and 413 00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:46,079 they would call up to the house and say thus and such as waiting for 414 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,319 you at the gate? Are you expecting them? Can we send them up? 415 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,200 And you have to get confirmation from inside the house, Yes, we 416 00:32:53,279 --> 00:32:57,759 are expecting that person. You can send them in. At that point, 417 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:04,839 the guard will this phone call that they make is it on a conventional phone 418 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,680 or is there some sort of intercom set out or do they phone the person's 419 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,000 unit and say, to the best of my memory, it's just actual conventional 420 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:17,519 landline phone. Got it. So they call and they say, Kristin Dilly's 421 00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:22,720 here to see. The mends has to say yes, please send her on 422 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:25,599 in. Yes, yes, exactly. So you have to get confirmation from 423 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,119 someone. Got it and I remember this. Like I said, my parents 424 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:34,160 had friends inside the Kingsmel community, and so if we were going to go 425 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,000 to see X person or by person, we would go through the gate. 426 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:44,759 The guard actually gives you it's a paper pass and they write where you're going, 427 00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:47,240 and they write the date and time, and you have to display the 428 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:52,519 pass at all times in your car. And if you don't have a pass, 429 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,200 the people inside of Kingsmeil, meaning the guards, the Kingsmeil Police, 430 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:00,759 essentially they will find you if you don't have a pass in your car and 431 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:05,200 they'll pull you over what you do in here. That's true of whether or 432 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,480 not you're going to visit a friend, or whether you're going to the resort 433 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:12,880 to play golf or to go for a meal or a sail at the marina 434 00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,920 or whatever else. You always have to have a pass whenever you go into 435 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,480 Kingsmell by car. So it is very secure. And there are only the 436 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:24,360 two ways in the one ninety nine guard gate and the Route sixty guard gate. 437 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:29,159 There is no way to there's no side roads, there's no way to 438 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,519 like sneak in under the radar that I'm aware of. I'm sure that there 439 00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:34,960 are people who live in the resort who could say, oh, yeah, 440 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,960 you could probably get in or out this way, But to my knowledge, 441 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,519 there is no other way to get in or out of Kingsmill beyond those two 442 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:45,039 guard gates, and you have to have a pass with you at all times. 443 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,320 I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. But okay, 444 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,760 good portion of kings Mill is along the James River though, so you 445 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:58,000 could come in by water. There are people who have boats and there is 446 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,360 a marina there. Yeah, I feel like that is a rabbit a though 447 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,519 I imagining a potential kidnapper on a boat, I'm not seeing that it is 448 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:13,039 a great potential possibility for what happened to Jennifer. Yes, so kings Mill 449 00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:15,119 does back up to the James. The resort is actually called Kingsmel on the 450 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:20,519 James and for many years it was the home of the PGA Tour, so 451 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,840 it's well known in the area and you can go in to play at the 452 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,480 golf course to meet up. I had a friend who just had her baby 453 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:31,360 shower in the resort at kings Mill, and so I was able to go 454 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,480 in for the day. But same thing, you have to go to the 455 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,639 guard gate, say what you're there for, they write you the pass, 456 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,239 and then you go to where you're going. Now. The reason I asked 457 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,760 about the telephone was because the evening that she disappeared, Jennifer, teenage girl 458 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,039 age fifteen, was on the phone a lot, to the point where her 459 00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:55,239 dad got on her case about it. Yeah, this documentary does include some 460 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:02,599 reenactments with actors performing the parts of Jennifer and her parents and some other key 461 00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:08,159 players. It might be possible for Jennifer to answer the phone the evening she 462 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,320 disappeared and say yes, send them on in. Yeah, I would say 463 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,880 that's definitely possible. They had discussed the possibility in the documentary of maybe somebody 464 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,920 walked in to the house rather than bringing a car. I suppose that's possible, 465 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,719 But kingsmil is it's very large, expansive community. I don't see somebody 466 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,360 parking their car outside of Kingsmell and then walking through, sneaking into the woods 467 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,719 by Jen's house so that they could sneak into her bedroom and then have her 468 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,440 walk out with them. Like, I don't see that as a possibility, 469 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,440 even though it was put out as hey, maybe this is a thing that 470 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:52,440 happened I don't know. There's one other possibility as well, which was discussed 471 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:59,119 in the documentary, which is could Jennifer have left her parents home and walked 472 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,639 out of Archers Meet, the road where her parents rented condo was located, 473 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,000 and make her way to the edge of the property and go out through one 474 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:13,679 of the gates, although that's at least a mile in and of itself, 475 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,360 and that would be say, a twenty minute walk. One of the striking 476 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,320 things about Jennifer's disappearances she took virtually nothing with her, not even her jacket 477 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,679 as far as they can tell, given the fact that it was February. 478 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,760 I know it's not freezing cold in Williamsberg in February, it's still chilly enough 479 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,880 that you would absolutely want to take a jacket with you, And she didn't 480 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:43,519 seem to take much in terms of her personal items. That struck everyone, 481 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:49,800 investigators and family alike as odd and it's interesting. The opening shot of the 482 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,719 documentary is of the actress plane Jennifer on a little scooter scooting around King's Mill, 483 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,719 and then we never hear about that again. I wonder if you're going 484 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,440 to away when at at least take your bike take your scooter to wherever you're 485 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,880 meeting this person. If you are planning on running off with this older father 486 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,079 figure as referenced in the note, if he's not going to drive in to 487 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:15,400 come get you, why not at least take your scooter, your bike or 488 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,119 whatever else. Why make yourself walk a mile at least in the dark, 489 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,039 in the freezing cold temperatures of February without a coat. I just it doesn't 490 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:28,719 make a ton of sense to me that if someone is going to run off, 491 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,440 even for just a couple of days, why do you not take anything 492 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:34,960 with you? And how do you get to where you're going? Those first 493 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:45,119 two episodes mostly focus on these issues, discussions between Steven Pandos and the investigators 494 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:51,360 and other experts whom we referenced, as well as pushing his mother and ultimately 495 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,280 his father for answers in his sister's disappearance. What we find as we head 496 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:02,119 into episode two is there are twists and turns in the second half of the 497 00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:06,559 documentary. We don't want to give all of those away, because it's certainly 498 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:13,159 very interesting to see those things unfold, But as we head into the second 499 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,719 half of the four episodes, our view of the case begins to change. 500 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,320 Yeah, that's definitely a more than fair assessment of this situation. I could 501 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,599 not binge this. I'm trying to be very mindful of how much crime I'm 502 00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:32,400 feeding myself during the day, and so I watched the first two episodes and 503 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,159 then I was like, you know what, I can't do all for tonight. 504 00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:42,440 I just can't. So I stopped after two and then I returned to 505 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,639 episode three and four the next day about as early as I could, justifind 506 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:49,320 getting on the TV, don't watch it. I didn't want to be like, 507 00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,079 it's six am and I'm watching crime. I didn't want to do that, 508 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,960 so I waited till a decent hour. Nine am is a good time 509 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,760 to start watching crime. But definitely after the first two episodes, I was 510 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,719 left thinking one thing, and then we get to episodes three and four and 511 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:07,199 it's this is a whole other Oh my goodness. Funny. We ended up 512 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,639 watching one episode per night, but by the time we got to episode three, 513 00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:15,760 we couldn't wait then to jump into episode four. Yeah, I was 514 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,840 gonna say, I don't know how you wait it, and we may have 515 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,760 to hold some of our observations for our next episode as well. I think 516 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,840 that's probably a good idea. We would encourage you if you have not already 517 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,679 watched Burden of Proof on HBO or I guess they're just calling it Max now 518 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,079 and not HBO Max. If you haven't watched Burden of Proof on Max, 519 00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:44,519 please make sure you do check that out so you can better appreciate our discussion 520 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:47,519 here on minded Murder. We will continue our discussion in our next episode. 521 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,760 That's going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you 522 00:40:51,840 --> 00:41:05,760 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 523 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,920 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 524 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,320 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 525 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:22,519 music is by Kevin mcleoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl 526 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:27,320 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 527 00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,920 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and 528 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:36,480 finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 529 00:41:36,960 --> 00:42:20,679 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. It