We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST,
make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to
the premium version of our website as well. We are joined today by Paul
Deperna. He is the vice president of Research and Innovation at ed Choice.
You can learn more about ed Choice at EdChoice dot org. Paul, Welcome
to the show, Emilie. It's great to be here with you. Thanks
so much. Yeah, maybe a good spot to start is just if you
could tell us a little bit about the work that you guys are up to
over at ed Choice. Sure, so, I just a little for those
listening who may not be familiar with our organization. We launched in nineteen ninety
six, so we've been around for about thirty years. Originally we were the
Miltonimed Rose D. Freedman Foundation, So we were founded by Milton Friedman,
who many people know was an economic and Nobel laureate and his wife, Rose
Director Freedman, and we're based in Indianapolis, but the scope of our work
is national. We're a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization and our mission is to advance
freedom, opportunities, and choice for all in K twelve education as pathways to
successful lives and a stronger society. And so our focus is around K twelve
education choice issues. We inform an educate policymakers, parent groups, education leaders,
more and more entrepreneurs in the space through public policy, advocacy, legal
affairs. We do a lot of parent workshops and outreach. And then in
my areas at the Research and Thought Leadership Program and I oversee surveys and the
polling that we do and other types of you know, activities around research data
around school choice programs around the country. Some people might not be familiar with
the background of actually Milton Rose Friedman in the space. If you could tell
us a little bit, Paul, because I just find this history really interesting.
A little bit about the I guess, the movement as it was then
and why the Freedman thought this was such important work. I think that would
be really fascinating. Sure. So, Milton Friedman, he you know,
really established himself as you know, a free market and freedom focused economist at
a time when that wasn't really in favor in the profession or you know,
and it was really a new Deal UH era, and you know, we're
more government intervention, more government programs for uh launching and expanding. And Son
Friedman really was one of those from the Chicago School Economics who offered an alternate
vision for for how free markets can you serve the interest to the public good
and too uh, you know, by giving individuals more freedom, more choice,
more opportunity, that can that can lead to better things for for for
everyone. And so he uh wrote an influential article in the nineteen fifty so
this is going back about seventy almost seventy years ago about the role of government
and education, where he laid out his school voucher idea and and and proposal
and then and we stated that in Capitalism and Freedom, which he published some
years later in the early nineteen sixties. You know, and those ideas were
percolating for a while among conservatives in the late fifties, sixties into the seventies,
but it didn't really take a fact and like really enter public policy and
until nineteen ninety in Milwaukee, which was the first the beginning of the first
modern school boucher program, which was led by the way by Democrats in the
city and so Howard Fuller was John Norquist who was the mayor, Howard Fuller,
who was a superintendent in Milwaukee's public schools. They embraced this idea.
They saw it as a way to increase the competition for schools there, but
also just to give students who were in a very bad situation academically, schools
were underperforming, even dangerous they get, you know, there were they want
to provide options, you know, whether the Catholic schools or other private schools
in the city. So that was the first modern school voucher program launched more
than thirty years ago. And then and that was manifesting the vision, the
vision and the idea that Melton Freeman and put forward UH but previously and then
Cleveland was the next school voucher program. And slowly, over time the idea
started to take off and we started and we began to see it move not
just focused in urban areas, but state wide programs. And so Florida they
launched a statewide school voucher program UH pilot at first, and then they UH
then they UH solidified as a full program for students with disabilities. It was
called the McKay Scholarship at the time. And then and so Florida under governor
then Governor Jeb Bush's leadership really you know, started to I mean, it
gave a lot more visibility, increased the visibility of the school choice idea and
going beyond public charter schools, which is another version of choice but within the
public sector. And so this was opening it up to the private sector.
And then states like Arizona they also they had passed what was called the tax
credit scholarship program. So tax credit funded scholarships took off in Arizona in the
late nineties and early two thousands. And then we saw Ohio launch a statewide
program. And so then move fast forward to the last three or four years,
we see these programs now expanding their eligibility and so we've seen some really
exciting developments just in the last few years. Once again Arizona new state like
West Virginia, who enacted fully universal programs expanding eligibility to all students K twelve
age to be able to take advantage of what they what is now called Education
Savings Account programs, which are multi purpose types of programs that go beyond offsetting
and paying for school twition, but also allows for covering expenses for tutoring,
therapies of a child as a disability, online courses, and other types of
educational expenses. So it's really just grown over the years. And this all
started, you know, about seventy years almost seven years ago, with Milton
Friedman's at school vouch your idea. You know, it's it's so interesting.
That was really deep history. One of the reasons I think it's so interesting
is that, especially right now, as so many people are having these conversations
about what is conservatism, it goes back to the days of the founding when
obviously the framers of our constitution saw education as such an important part of republican
smaller republican government. And it's remarkable then to look at, you know,
where that was going, and when Friedman was sort of passionate and saw where
it was going and understood that steps had to be taken, and also just
trying to understand the government's role in all of this, the family's role and
all of this, and the importance of giving people, giving people choice.
Paul, have you I guess I don't know. I feel like it's very
there's so much consensus on the question of school choice on the right. There's
even a lot of support for it among braver souls on the left. But
have there been any have there been or let's see, have you had to
kind of re explain school choice to people in this era of like big conversations
about national conservatism and all of that great pace question. Uh So one of
one of the things I would you know, I would say, especially with
these programs expanding, and so these programs are just being more relevant and of
use and and the potential is there for more people coming from you know,
different walks of life and backgrounds and how much they know about school choice issues.
So whether that's a parent is interested and taking uh, you know,
being able to utilize a education savings account program or to you know, just
change schools, or if it's someone who's in the advocacy space who wants to
just be more informed about the different types of school choice. I mean,
there has been answer your question, there's been a lot of opportunity to to
uh and because it has been evolving a lot in the last ten to fifteen
years in terms of just the different types of policies. Education savings accounts have
only been around for about thirteen or fourteen years, first being enacted in Arizona
and then spreading to other states more recently. And then there's school voucher programs.
In my home state of Indiana as one of the largest school voucher programs,
the Choice Scholarship Program's serving more than sixty thousand students this school year,
and so that's also really taken off. And eligibility has expanded by virtue of
the legislature and the governor expanding it in the last couple of few years.
And so I just bring more opportunity, yeah, just to give have these
conversations about what choice is, not in an idiological way, but in a
very practical way, truthfully, and which is really refreshing. And and we
do see a lot of progress and just a lot of open mindedness outside of
the you know, the usual opponents of choice, but especially in the middle
are those who are just never really politically engaged, but more just you know,
thinking about the welfare and the well being of students, and especially coming
out of the COVID pandemic, there's a lot more openness to the choice idea.
Yeah, which is you know, honestly, most families, that's what
they may they may not be super politically engaged, but they you know,
want their communities there and their children, their family's children to be healthy,
their neighbor's children to be healthy, and getting a good education. And Paul,
that's where I wanted to maybe contextualize this conversation we're having in the last
you know, several months of especially what has happened in higher education. But
obviously you don't make it to quote higher education until you pass through our K
twelve system the United States. So how would you, you know, say
you're talking to somebody who's upset about some of the activism they've seen on campus.
Maybe they're upset specifically about uh, bigotry or incitement, but maybe they're
also just more upset with polling that shows, you know, let's say,
lacking support for Israel compared to other generations among young people, and they're wondering
what's beyond behind this. How would you say that school choice can come into
play and might be important there. That's a really good question, I you
know, I think and we do surveys of teenagers twice a year, and
we just released the report on our survey of teens about a month ago.
And you know, I think that you know, being able to just make
make their high school experience that much more relevant. I mean, you know,
some of the findings from our or maybe not that surprising, but still
alarming in terms of just how many teens most of the most of the teams
in our survey are in high high school age, but some are also in
seventh and eighth group. But we see, you know, a vast majority
of a majority saying that they you know, are being board in school.
And you know, it's nearly about two thirds said that they felt schools boring.
About one third said school is a waste of time. Uh, and
you know, for only forty one percent say they like going to school.
So a majority, you know, if you flip that around, don't don't
like going to school. And then what they see of their team, you
know, their peers and classmates. They have seven out of ten teenagers said
that all or most of their classmates are bored in class. So I think
these are all like warning signs to us. And this, you know,
and this is not new, and you know, we don't have a great
time series or longitudinal data really available to see you know, what these numbers
look like before the pandemic. But yeah, but you know, taking a
holistic view, looking at different surveys, whether it's you know, the ones
conducted with us in the morning console who's our partner, or you know,
common Sense Media, the surveys of teens, uh you know, some other
uh just other you know surveys Pure Research Center who also survey teachers uh and
parents, the Understanding America Series survey from USC. They also when you look
at all these numbers, I mean you see you can see that there are
just things that aren't going quite right, you know, to say the least,
and and and you know, and there are some new initiatives that we
think high school and how you know bring you know potentially you know, one
idea is you know, to try to include more uh you know connection connectivity
with like higher education or post secondary, whether it's college colleges or if it's
a bo tech or other types of professional and trade education or skill building.
And so I think there's an opportunity too, you know, you know,
if these kids are bored, they're going to be looking you know for things
that you know that and if the students are bored, and if they think
school is a waste of time, you know, their focus is not on
you know how they know, on what they can necessarily be learning or you
know, doing themselves. And so you know, I don't know, we
don't We haven't asked questions about the campus protests. We didn't ask questions of
teens about that since that's pretty recent. But I mean I think that you
know, if we make the high school experience more relevant, useful, uh
and to you know, students' interests, you know, with parents, you
know, engaging their parents, engaging the community more and there and there are
you know, these things like this going on around the country. We just
have to bring more attention to that and and to the degree we can build
policies around that and engage entrepreneurs education entrepreneurs in this way, which that space
is growing and seems to be growing you know, a lot more in recent
years, then that that could be a good thing to you know, to
try to help you know, our young adults. All right. Today's episode
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Shark Dot Deals slash Federalist. Yeah. I know, that's really interesting because
and actually I'm curious if you could talk a little bit too, maybe about
some of those numbers you were mentioning that aren't even like particularly political, just
kids being bored in the classroom. I mean, people think of school choice
in the context of politics because you know, obviously that's sort of the arena
in which the policy battles are fought. But you know, schools are failing
children in ways that go well beyond beyond and are obviously maybe related to some
of these hot buttoned political issues. But if you contectors a little bit of
Paul about how educational freedom, how school choice can can help improve schools on
some of those metrics that aren't even in the political discussion but are absolutely salient
and way very heavily on the minds of just about every k through twelve kid
and their parents around the country. Sure, no, that's a that's a
great question. So I think, you know, we do ask a question
about what and we asked we've asked this of teachers, parents and teenagers in
terms of what they see is the most important purpose of schooling is. And
we divide and we and we ask it for them to consider elementary grades K
and then also for high school grades nine through twelve. And it's it's interesting
to see that, you know, work workforce skill building is the high that
gets the highest registered to the highest percentage for those who among teachers, teenagers,
parents who feel that's the most important thing to focus on for high school.
And so we see two thirds of teachers and this started started we just
released this week, believe that that's extremely important for high school. About six
out of ten parents and almost the same percentage of teenagers say the same about
building workforce skills. So there's a focus on that. We see a little
more variation around core academic subjects and so among teens and only thirty eight percent
said that that's really extremely important for high school is our learning core academic subjects.
It's a difference between them with parents, which is not forty nine percent.
And then I love bit surprising to me is that forty one percent of
teachers, so teachers were closer to teens on this item, felt that core
academic subjects was extremely important. And then maybe most surprising involved the public.
General public is most likely to say core academic subjects is important for high school.
Fifty six percent of the public adults eighteen and older said that that's important.
And then we asked a question to items around socialization, citizenship, independent
thinking, and we see, you know, citizenship, it's a little scores
lower among teens. Sixty one percent of teachers think that's important in high school.
Parents are forty six percent, And so we do see pretty we don't.
We don't often when we've released these reports highlight this question. But I
think this can at least point us in a direction of where to prioritize the
experience for high school and so and really listening to teachers, high school students
K twelve, school parents and and and their organizations out there that are renewing
focus on and UH trying to rethink what the high school experience could be.
So the foundation for Excellence and Education UH. Governor Jeb Bush's organization. This
is becoming a higher priority for them. This is something that we're looking at
to and a choice is to see how choice can you know, build some
connected tissue between the high school experience and and and beyond high school and and
so Indiana they've we we just UH enacted a new scholarship program called Enrichment Scholarships
that provide stipends UH for some UH to allow high school students to UH build
their build their learning experience beyond the school building. And so this is something
that's pretty new and and and and it will be interesting to see how,
you know, how that rows in the coming years. So there's there's a
lot I mean, I think I think this could be one of those air
you areas and in education that will get more attention and then you know,
in the short term, and you know, we've talked about this a little
bit earlier, but you've been working in this space for a while. And
one of the most one of the most interesting things about the movement that you're
part of is how bipartisan it often is. And that isn't to say there
aren't bitter partisan disagreements. That isn't to say there aren't sort of partisan disagreements
that put students last. And obviously I'm coming from the opinion perspective that ampondents
of school choice put a lot of kids in difficult situations unnecessarily. But can
you talk to us just about what it's been like, you know, what
is the landscape right now? Obviously tensions sort of nationally have ratcheted up since
oh, I don't know if thrill you're out there, twenty sixteen. But
it's made it hard for people in different movements actually to work together. But
it's made it easier in some respects. But could you just tell us a
little bit about your experience, you know, what it's like kind of working
across the aisle on this issue. You know, I shouldn't even do the
binary across the aisle phrase, but working with people and coalition leaders, people
with stakes and all kinds of different groups and communities on this issue. What's
it like today? Is is it easier? Is it harder? And is
there still a lot of bipartisan support? That's a great question. And you
know it's I I see, you know, more more openness and you know,
like nonpartisan I think people who you know, especially at the local and
state levels, who are working on these issues. Really, you know,
the politics is not at all on the radar really and it's only if it's
being voiced did on by you know, opponents. And we know that the
National Teachers' Unions are very opposed to school vouchers and they call everything a school
voucher, even if it isn't isn't a school voucher. And so, you
know, we see a lot of Democrat and Democratic and Republican support for essays
almost an equal very you know, similar levels where typically it's seven you know,
seventy percent or above are supportive of essays and so and so we you
know, we see that, you know, and whether it's on the party
I d question, or if it's on the ideological question of liberal, conservative
and moderate, I mean, there's just a lot of just you know,
coalescing and very you know, the gaps are very small and tend to be
in significant around education savings accounts. And I would say the same about open
enrollment, which is a school choice allowing UH students to go to attend another
public school that's not in their school district. And so that's also another area
that we see just you know, those kind of party or ideological lines just
evaporate. Among school vouchers, I mean, there are some when we when
we do ask about school vouchers, there are some differences, but still among
Democrats there's a net positive of support even for school voucher programs and so uh
and the same for charter schools. And so the levels of support for charters
and school vouchers have been a little bit more uh uh in flux over time
as we've been doing our monthly tracking poll with Morning consult But I really yeah,
to the degree, you know, listeners are really interested in polling,
and that's something that we do. Try to present those demographic breakouts, and
we try to make all the data available to the degree people want to wait
in the day. So there's a lot of it, especially in the cross
tabs files and and and you can and you can just just draw these comparisons.
But you know, but outside of the polling and like in you know,
the work that our policy and advocacy team do or training and outreach teams,
I mean they they are working with whoever is interested in the issue and
want to see forward forward progress and and uh and we've seen a lot of
a lot of more interest uh, in recent years around essays and especially especially
since school closures around the pandemic and just that disruption and disruptive force and that
shock to K twelve education around the country and then very varying a lot state
to state. But I think that you know, with so many of these
programs and the legislative activity of the last few years, has you know,
just channeled that uh, you know, desire for more opportunity and you know,
more options, more flexibility. Uh that you know, the parents have
been voicing in all sorts of ways, whether it's as a school board meetings,
which you know a lot of those uh those activities, you know,
those kind of demonstrations, or you know, just you know, being very
vocal about you know, their challenges that families are facing at school board meetings
or through you know, through other means voting and elections, which we don't
get involved in as an organization, but but we just you know, our
mission is to just continue to inform and just try to bring as much data
and information to bear on these issues. And and and really that doesn't take
on a particular political stripe from my experience, which is, you know,
on the research and data side and our team's experience, but also even on
the policy and advocacy side, where you know we are willing and able and
enthusiastic to talk to anyone about these these issues because really, you know,
it doesn't when it comes to you know, family experiences and student experiences,
those political and ideological lines off often. Oftentimes, like I said in a
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or wherever you get your podcasts. So true. And I've heard you
know recently, and I think this is true of myself as well, people
expressing COVID fatigue. You know, they're sick of clicking on stories about COVID,
sick of hearing about COVID. But I have to ask Paul how COVID.
I'm guessing this is a leading question, but I sort of galvanized the
school choice movement. And if that's true, you know, even today now
that we're that we have some distance from COVID and it's a bit in the
rearview mirror. What role maybe you think or you've seen the decisions that some
unions made around the country are maybe even not some, but like the big
national union made around the country and in certain cities like Chicago, this was
especially acute. So is it did COVID galvanize the school choice movement? And
if so, what role did the decisions that unions made play into that?
So that's that's a really good question. And uh, to be candidate,
we don't have you know, we don't have the data to like make that
direct causal link there was between the kind of the union obstructionism and uh.
And this again is national union and it's not rank and file members. It's
the elites and the leadership of these unions who make these you know, who
end up making these decisions. Chicago is a great example, and then there
were some other cities as well that dealt with these closures for much longer periods
of time because of that kind of obstruction. And uh So we don't have
the data to link that, but at the very least it energized, I
believe parents. And so there was kind of the action, you know,
reaction kind of effect here where parents I mean parent engagement, parent involvement in
their children's learning and their schooling. That is something that we have seen and
I've been with our organization for about almost eighteen years, and you know,
the levels of parent engagement interest, I mean it continues to you know,
increase at higher levels than we've you've seen and it's that certainly has happened over
the last four plus years. And so at least from from my point of
view, I mean, I eventually say, from our organization, our experience,
I mean that just you know, parents are more engaged, more activated,
more interested, wanting more information and that has provided to some degree some
counterbalance to the opponents of educational choice from whether it's the National Education Association or
from the American Federation of Teachers. Uh And and so you have groups and
organizations like the National Parents Union as probably as one of the largest ones that
come to mind, who are very effective with parent ambassadors around the country and
organizing. Uh. And then there are just more local and state specific parent
groups and organizations that are not only activating parents, but and and but like
really zeroing on certain types of policies that can support families. And so I'm
thinking of Love your School in Arizona. They do work in Arizona as well
as in West Virginia. I mean, they're really helping families navigate and consider
and review their options for their child's having a tough time in their current school.
You know, how can the EESA program in Arizona help help them and
benefit them and really make be a positive change for their child? And so,
uh so there are more of these local and state organizations who we like
to work with and in many ways defer to their judgment too. And they
local, they understand the local environment and the local context better than we will,
and so we probably we try to provide the resources and the information that
can help them. And so so that's been exciting to see where yes,
there were you know these uh, you know, protest strikes that happened.
Uh and and even you know, extended closures during the pandemic. But then
you know, there's there's also been a positive effect or counter effect that I
guess, if you want to say, of parents just being much more engaged,
much more involved, much more organized than ever before. That is just
fascinating. Paul, is there anything else you think people should know about the
work that you guys are doing at a Choice or maybe the broader moment,
broader movement before we wrap up? You know, I think no, I
appreciate that question, Emily. I mean, I think you know, people
are interested in polling and surveys. We do have a monthly tracking poll that
we're actually just releasing in the next week, our latest poll parents in the
public. And then we do surveys of teachers and of teenagers twice a year,
but at the beginning and the ends of the school year, and so
we just released a couple of reports there, and then we we have a
lot of information on our website so about all the different types of educational choice
programs around the country. And so if anyone's interested in learning more about education
savings accounts and uh and and you know what they can do for family lees
UH and and and other types of school choice policies and programs around the country.
We have a lot of data, historical data that goes back to the
inception of these programs, and then we're always happy to provide anything or just
answer any questions too, and really try to be as an open organization and
team for people interested in learning more about you know, what's happening in the
in the education of choice space, and what's happening in the states. Our
blog every month we have some updates about any of the latest developments that are
happening in states, and we've just this past week saw Missouri expand the eligibility
of their tax credit ESA program, which is really encouraging. We've seen a
new universal program be enacted in Alabama that was signed into law by Governor Ivy
and then and Georgia even expanded uh UH and created their own program ESA program
this year. So we're starting we're still seeing movement UH just even in an
election year, which is not very typical, and so that just kind of
goes to show that there's momentum UH and that you know, is encouraging and
we're hoping to see more programs, expand the eligibility for students, lower the
barriers for entry for entrepreneurs and micro school uh, micro schoolers uh to enter
the space, and and and and you know, and just to see more
entrepreneurial activity to balance the demand, to meet the demand that's been growing over
the recent years. All right, well, you can find out more at
EdChoice dot org. Paul Daperna, thank you so much for getting us up
to date on everything that you guys are doing. It's great to be here.
Thanks a lot, Emily, of course, I'm on Lagashinski, culture
editor here at The Federalist. You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist
Radio Hour. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers
of freedom and anxious for the fray. I heard the fame voice ser reson,
and then it faded away.