1 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,039 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinsky, 2 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,039 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,039 --> 00:00:29,039 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,240 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:37,000 the premium version of our website as well. We are joined today by Paul 6 00:00:37,079 --> 00:00:41,359 Deperna. He is the vice president of Research and Innovation at ed Choice. 7 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:46,000 You can learn more about ed Choice at EdChoice dot org. Paul, Welcome 8 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,960 to the show, Emilie. It's great to be here with you. Thanks 9 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:52,280 so much. Yeah, maybe a good spot to start is just if you 10 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,200 could tell us a little bit about the work that you guys are up to 11 00:00:55,359 --> 00:00:59,560 over at ed Choice. Sure, so, I just a little for those 12 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:04,959 listening who may not be familiar with our organization. We launched in nineteen ninety 13 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,400 six, so we've been around for about thirty years. Originally we were the 14 00:01:10,519 --> 00:01:15,519 Miltonimed Rose D. Freedman Foundation, So we were founded by Milton Friedman, 15 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:22,359 who many people know was an economic and Nobel laureate and his wife, Rose 16 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,560 Director Freedman, and we're based in Indianapolis, but the scope of our work 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:33,760 is national. We're a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization and our mission is to advance 18 00:01:33,799 --> 00:01:38,359 freedom, opportunities, and choice for all in K twelve education as pathways to 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:44,400 successful lives and a stronger society. And so our focus is around K twelve 20 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:51,079 education choice issues. We inform an educate policymakers, parent groups, education leaders, 21 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:57,840 more and more entrepreneurs in the space through public policy, advocacy, legal 22 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:02,319 affairs. We do a lot of parent workshops and outreach. And then in 23 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:08,120 my areas at the Research and Thought Leadership Program and I oversee surveys and the 24 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:15,599 polling that we do and other types of you know, activities around research data 25 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:21,400 around school choice programs around the country. Some people might not be familiar with 26 00:02:21,439 --> 00:02:24,159 the background of actually Milton Rose Friedman in the space. If you could tell 27 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,240 us a little bit, Paul, because I just find this history really interesting. 28 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:34,159 A little bit about the I guess, the movement as it was then 29 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,680 and why the Freedman thought this was such important work. I think that would 30 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:44,479 be really fascinating. Sure. So, Milton Friedman, he you know, 31 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:54,360 really established himself as you know, a free market and freedom focused economist at 32 00:02:54,360 --> 00:03:00,360 a time when that wasn't really in favor in the profession or you know, 33 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:07,879 and it was really a new Deal UH era, and you know, we're 34 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:15,039 more government intervention, more government programs for uh launching and expanding. And Son 35 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,759 Friedman really was one of those from the Chicago School Economics who offered an alternate 36 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:28,800 vision for for how free markets can you serve the interest to the public good 37 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:34,080 and too uh, you know, by giving individuals more freedom, more choice, 38 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,719 more opportunity, that can that can lead to better things for for for 39 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:46,479 everyone. And so he uh wrote an influential article in the nineteen fifty so 40 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:52,159 this is going back about seventy almost seventy years ago about the role of government 41 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:59,120 and education, where he laid out his school voucher idea and and and proposal 42 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:04,120 and then and we stated that in Capitalism and Freedom, which he published some 43 00:04:04,599 --> 00:04:10,560 years later in the early nineteen sixties. You know, and those ideas were 44 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:15,839 percolating for a while among conservatives in the late fifties, sixties into the seventies, 45 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:25,759 but it didn't really take a fact and like really enter public policy and 46 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,879 until nineteen ninety in Milwaukee, which was the first the beginning of the first 47 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:36,519 modern school boucher program, which was led by the way by Democrats in the 48 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:43,800 city and so Howard Fuller was John Norquist who was the mayor, Howard Fuller, 49 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,279 who was a superintendent in Milwaukee's public schools. They embraced this idea. 50 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,920 They saw it as a way to increase the competition for schools there, but 51 00:04:50,959 --> 00:04:58,920 also just to give students who were in a very bad situation academically, schools 52 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,879 were underperforming, even dangerous they get, you know, there were they want 53 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,560 to provide options, you know, whether the Catholic schools or other private schools 54 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,399 in the city. So that was the first modern school voucher program launched more 55 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:15,600 than thirty years ago. And then and that was manifesting the vision, the 56 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:23,639 vision and the idea that Melton Freeman and put forward UH but previously and then 57 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,759 Cleveland was the next school voucher program. And slowly, over time the idea 58 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,319 started to take off and we started and we began to see it move not 59 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:39,360 just focused in urban areas, but state wide programs. And so Florida they 60 00:05:39,439 --> 00:05:45,519 launched a statewide school voucher program UH pilot at first, and then they UH 61 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,000 then they UH solidified as a full program for students with disabilities. It was 62 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:55,399 called the McKay Scholarship at the time. And then and so Florida under governor 63 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,839 then Governor Jeb Bush's leadership really you know, started to I mean, it 64 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:09,639 gave a lot more visibility, increased the visibility of the school choice idea and 65 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:14,759 going beyond public charter schools, which is another version of choice but within the 66 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:17,839 public sector. And so this was opening it up to the private sector. 67 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:26,399 And then states like Arizona they also they had passed what was called the tax 68 00:06:26,439 --> 00:06:31,519 credit scholarship program. So tax credit funded scholarships took off in Arizona in the 69 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,959 late nineties and early two thousands. And then we saw Ohio launch a statewide 70 00:06:35,959 --> 00:06:43,759 program. And so then move fast forward to the last three or four years, 71 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:50,120 we see these programs now expanding their eligibility and so we've seen some really 72 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:57,360 exciting developments just in the last few years. Once again Arizona new state like 73 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:04,879 West Virginia, who enacted fully universal programs expanding eligibility to all students K twelve 74 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:12,279 age to be able to take advantage of what they what is now called Education 75 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:18,519 Savings Account programs, which are multi purpose types of programs that go beyond offsetting 76 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:26,199 and paying for school twition, but also allows for covering expenses for tutoring, 77 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,519 therapies of a child as a disability, online courses, and other types of 78 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:39,560 educational expenses. So it's really just grown over the years. And this all 79 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,160 started, you know, about seventy years almost seven years ago, with Milton 80 00:07:44,199 --> 00:07:46,920 Friedman's at school vouch your idea. You know, it's it's so interesting. 81 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:49,720 That was really deep history. One of the reasons I think it's so interesting 82 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:55,000 is that, especially right now, as so many people are having these conversations 83 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,759 about what is conservatism, it goes back to the days of the founding when 84 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,560 obviously the framers of our constitution saw education as such an important part of republican 85 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,319 smaller republican government. And it's remarkable then to look at, you know, 86 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,639 where that was going, and when Friedman was sort of passionate and saw where 87 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,000 it was going and understood that steps had to be taken, and also just 88 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,040 trying to understand the government's role in all of this, the family's role and 89 00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:28,120 all of this, and the importance of giving people, giving people choice. 90 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:31,799 Paul, have you I guess I don't know. I feel like it's very 91 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,440 there's so much consensus on the question of school choice on the right. There's 92 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,360 even a lot of support for it among braver souls on the left. But 93 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:50,000 have there been any have there been or let's see, have you had to 94 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,879 kind of re explain school choice to people in this era of like big conversations 95 00:08:54,919 --> 00:09:03,360 about national conservatism and all of that great pace question. Uh So one of 96 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:07,840 one of the things I would you know, I would say, especially with 97 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:13,799 these programs expanding, and so these programs are just being more relevant and of 98 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,840 use and and the potential is there for more people coming from you know, 99 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:26,120 different walks of life and backgrounds and how much they know about school choice issues. 100 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:31,960 So whether that's a parent is interested and taking uh, you know, 101 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:41,159 being able to utilize a education savings account program or to you know, just 102 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:45,919 change schools, or if it's someone who's in the advocacy space who wants to 103 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:50,440 just be more informed about the different types of school choice. I mean, 104 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:54,519 there has been answer your question, there's been a lot of opportunity to to 105 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:01,720 uh and because it has been evolving a lot in the last ten to fifteen 106 00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:07,679 years in terms of just the different types of policies. Education savings accounts have 107 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:15,960 only been around for about thirteen or fourteen years, first being enacted in Arizona 108 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:22,440 and then spreading to other states more recently. And then there's school voucher programs. 109 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,799 In my home state of Indiana as one of the largest school voucher programs, 110 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,320 the Choice Scholarship Program's serving more than sixty thousand students this school year, 111 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:39,960 and so that's also really taken off. And eligibility has expanded by virtue of 112 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,559 the legislature and the governor expanding it in the last couple of few years. 113 00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:52,240 And so I just bring more opportunity, yeah, just to give have these 114 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,320 conversations about what choice is, not in an idiological way, but in a 115 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:03,679 very practical way, truthfully, and which is really refreshing. And and we 116 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:09,240 do see a lot of progress and just a lot of open mindedness outside of 117 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,600 the you know, the usual opponents of choice, but especially in the middle 118 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,519 are those who are just never really politically engaged, but more just you know, 119 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,000 thinking about the welfare and the well being of students, and especially coming 120 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:28,440 out of the COVID pandemic, there's a lot more openness to the choice idea. 121 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,799 Yeah, which is you know, honestly, most families, that's what 122 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,159 they may they may not be super politically engaged, but they you know, 123 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,320 want their communities there and their children, their family's children to be healthy, 124 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,360 their neighbor's children to be healthy, and getting a good education. And Paul, 125 00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:48,200 that's where I wanted to maybe contextualize this conversation we're having in the last 126 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,000 you know, several months of especially what has happened in higher education. But 127 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:56,240 obviously you don't make it to quote higher education until you pass through our K 128 00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:00,879 twelve system the United States. So how would you, you know, say 129 00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:05,360 you're talking to somebody who's upset about some of the activism they've seen on campus. 130 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:11,559 Maybe they're upset specifically about uh, bigotry or incitement, but maybe they're 131 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,200 also just more upset with polling that shows, you know, let's say, 132 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:22,320 lacking support for Israel compared to other generations among young people, and they're wondering 133 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:28,279 what's beyond behind this. How would you say that school choice can come into 134 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:33,600 play and might be important there. That's a really good question, I you 135 00:12:33,639 --> 00:12:39,679 know, I think and we do surveys of teenagers twice a year, and 136 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:46,759 we just released the report on our survey of teens about a month ago. 137 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:54,600 And you know, I think that you know, being able to just make 138 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,559 make their high school experience that much more relevant. I mean, you know, 139 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,159 some of the findings from our or maybe not that surprising, but still 140 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:09,399 alarming in terms of just how many teens most of the most of the teams 141 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,000 in our survey are in high high school age, but some are also in 142 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,000 seventh and eighth group. But we see, you know, a vast majority 143 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,279 of a majority saying that they you know, are being board in school. 144 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,639 And you know, it's nearly about two thirds said that they felt schools boring. 145 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:31,960 About one third said school is a waste of time. Uh, and 146 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,879 you know, for only forty one percent say they like going to school. 147 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,320 So a majority, you know, if you flip that around, don't don't 148 00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:43,919 like going to school. And then what they see of their team, you 149 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:50,440 know, their peers and classmates. They have seven out of ten teenagers said 150 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,639 that all or most of their classmates are bored in class. So I think 151 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:56,960 these are all like warning signs to us. And this, you know, 152 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,600 and this is not new, and you know, we don't have a great 153 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:07,559 time series or longitudinal data really available to see you know, what these numbers 154 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,360 look like before the pandemic. But yeah, but you know, taking a 155 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,639 holistic view, looking at different surveys, whether it's you know, the ones 156 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:22,279 conducted with us in the morning console who's our partner, or you know, 157 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,120 common Sense Media, the surveys of teens, uh you know, some other 158 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:33,799 uh just other you know surveys Pure Research Center who also survey teachers uh and 159 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:41,360 parents, the Understanding America Series survey from USC. They also when you look 160 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:43,919 at all these numbers, I mean you see you can see that there are 161 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,600 just things that aren't going quite right, you know, to say the least, 162 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:52,120 and and and you know, and there are some new initiatives that we 163 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,399 think high school and how you know bring you know potentially you know, one 164 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:03,320 idea is you know, to try to include more uh you know connection connectivity 165 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,480 with like higher education or post secondary, whether it's college colleges or if it's 166 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:15,720 a bo tech or other types of professional and trade education or skill building. 167 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:22,399 And so I think there's an opportunity too, you know, you know, 168 00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:26,240 if these kids are bored, they're going to be looking you know for things 169 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,600 that you know that and if the students are bored, and if they think 170 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,120 school is a waste of time, you know, their focus is not on 171 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,919 you know how they know, on what they can necessarily be learning or you 172 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,639 know, doing themselves. And so you know, I don't know, we 173 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:46,480 don't We haven't asked questions about the campus protests. We didn't ask questions of 174 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:52,720 teens about that since that's pretty recent. But I mean I think that you 175 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,039 know, if we make the high school experience more relevant, useful, uh 176 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,159 and to you know, students' interests, you know, with parents, you 177 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:06,080 know, engaging their parents, engaging the community more and there and there are 178 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:10,559 you know, these things like this going on around the country. We just 179 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,759 have to bring more attention to that and and to the degree we can build 180 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:21,840 policies around that and engage entrepreneurs education entrepreneurs in this way, which that space 181 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:26,159 is growing and seems to be growing you know, a lot more in recent 182 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,919 years, then that that could be a good thing to you know, to 183 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:37,360 try to help you know, our young adults. All right. Today's episode 184 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:41,320 is brought to you by surf Shark. Surf Shark is a cyber security tool 185 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,559 that really improves your online privacy and also protects you from hackers. So how 186 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:49,440 does surf Shark do that. 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You hear me right, that's three extra months for free that surf 204 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Shark Dot Deals slash Federalist. Yeah. I know, that's really interesting because 205 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,599 and actually I'm curious if you could talk a little bit too, maybe about 206 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,880 some of those numbers you were mentioning that aren't even like particularly political, just 207 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,480 kids being bored in the classroom. I mean, people think of school choice 208 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,519 in the context of politics because you know, obviously that's sort of the arena 209 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,799 in which the policy battles are fought. But you know, schools are failing 210 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,799 children in ways that go well beyond beyond and are obviously maybe related to some 211 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,400 of these hot buttoned political issues. But if you contectors a little bit of 212 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:56,359 Paul about how educational freedom, how school choice can can help improve schools on 213 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:03,000 some of those metrics that aren't even in the political discussion but are absolutely salient 214 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:07,440 and way very heavily on the minds of just about every k through twelve kid 215 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,400 and their parents around the country. Sure, no, that's a that's a 216 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,400 great question. So I think, you know, we do ask a question 217 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:22,759 about what and we asked we've asked this of teachers, parents and teenagers in 218 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,920 terms of what they see is the most important purpose of schooling is. And 219 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:33,079 we divide and we and we ask it for them to consider elementary grades K 220 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,559 and then also for high school grades nine through twelve. And it's it's interesting 221 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:45,359 to see that, you know, work workforce skill building is the high that 222 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:52,279 gets the highest registered to the highest percentage for those who among teachers, teenagers, 223 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,519 parents who feel that's the most important thing to focus on for high school. 224 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,720 And so we see two thirds of teachers and this started started we just 225 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:08,400 released this week, believe that that's extremely important for high school. About six 226 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:15,000 out of ten parents and almost the same percentage of teenagers say the same about 227 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,000 building workforce skills. So there's a focus on that. We see a little 228 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:30,039 more variation around core academic subjects and so among teens and only thirty eight percent 229 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,640 said that that's really extremely important for high school is our learning core academic subjects. 230 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:40,319 It's a difference between them with parents, which is not forty nine percent. 231 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,160 And then I love bit surprising to me is that forty one percent of 232 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,039 teachers, so teachers were closer to teens on this item, felt that core 233 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:55,000 academic subjects was extremely important. And then maybe most surprising involved the public. 234 00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:59,799 General public is most likely to say core academic subjects is important for high school. 235 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,880 Fifty six percent of the public adults eighteen and older said that that's important. 236 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:12,160 And then we asked a question to items around socialization, citizenship, independent 237 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:18,680 thinking, and we see, you know, citizenship, it's a little scores 238 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:26,559 lower among teens. Sixty one percent of teachers think that's important in high school. 239 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:33,039 Parents are forty six percent, And so we do see pretty we don't. 240 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,160 We don't often when we've released these reports highlight this question. But I 241 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,640 think this can at least point us in a direction of where to prioritize the 242 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:51,480 experience for high school and so and really listening to teachers, high school students 243 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:56,759 K twelve, school parents and and and their organizations out there that are renewing 244 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:03,680 focus on and UH trying to rethink what the high school experience could be. 245 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:11,279 So the foundation for Excellence and Education UH. Governor Jeb Bush's organization. This 246 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,720 is becoming a higher priority for them. This is something that we're looking at 247 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:21,640 to and a choice is to see how choice can you know, build some 248 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:27,079 connected tissue between the high school experience and and and beyond high school and and 249 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:36,720 so Indiana they've we we just UH enacted a new scholarship program called Enrichment Scholarships 250 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:48,720 that provide stipends UH for some UH to allow high school students to UH build 251 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,240 their build their learning experience beyond the school building. And so this is something 252 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,480 that's pretty new and and and and it will be interesting to see how, 253 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,079 you know, how that rows in the coming years. So there's there's a 254 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:04,960 lot I mean, I think I think this could be one of those air 255 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:11,240 you areas and in education that will get more attention and then you know, 256 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,920 in the short term, and you know, we've talked about this a little 257 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,079 bit earlier, but you've been working in this space for a while. And 258 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,440 one of the most one of the most interesting things about the movement that you're 259 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:29,559 part of is how bipartisan it often is. And that isn't to say there 260 00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:34,319 aren't bitter partisan disagreements. That isn't to say there aren't sort of partisan disagreements 261 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:41,200 that put students last. And obviously I'm coming from the opinion perspective that ampondents 262 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:48,119 of school choice put a lot of kids in difficult situations unnecessarily. But can 263 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,880 you talk to us just about what it's been like, you know, what 264 00:23:51,079 --> 00:23:55,599 is the landscape right now? Obviously tensions sort of nationally have ratcheted up since 265 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:57,400 oh, I don't know if thrill you're out there, twenty sixteen. But 266 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,559 it's made it hard for people in different movements actually to work together. But 267 00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:06,200 it's made it easier in some respects. But could you just tell us a 268 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,720 little bit about your experience, you know, what it's like kind of working 269 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,759 across the aisle on this issue. You know, I shouldn't even do the 270 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:19,319 binary across the aisle phrase, but working with people and coalition leaders, people 271 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:26,319 with stakes and all kinds of different groups and communities on this issue. What's 272 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,599 it like today? Is is it easier? Is it harder? And is 273 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,640 there still a lot of bipartisan support? That's a great question. And you 274 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:42,839 know it's I I see, you know, more more openness and you know, 275 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:48,880 like nonpartisan I think people who you know, especially at the local and 276 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,119 state levels, who are working on these issues. Really, you know, 277 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,759 the politics is not at all on the radar really and it's only if it's 278 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,200 being voiced did on by you know, opponents. And we know that the 279 00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,759 National Teachers' Unions are very opposed to school vouchers and they call everything a school 280 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:14,960 voucher, even if it isn't isn't a school voucher. And so, you 281 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:21,319 know, we see a lot of Democrat and Democratic and Republican support for essays 282 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:27,559 almost an equal very you know, similar levels where typically it's seven you know, 283 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,799 seventy percent or above are supportive of essays and so and so we you 284 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:37,759 know, we see that, you know, and whether it's on the party 285 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:44,000 I d question, or if it's on the ideological question of liberal, conservative 286 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:47,240 and moderate, I mean, there's just a lot of just you know, 287 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:49,880 coalescing and very you know, the gaps are very small and tend to be 288 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:57,200 in significant around education savings accounts. And I would say the same about open 289 00:25:57,279 --> 00:26:06,559 enrollment, which is a school choice allowing UH students to go to attend another 290 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:11,480 public school that's not in their school district. And so that's also another area 291 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:17,640 that we see just you know, those kind of party or ideological lines just 292 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:25,160 evaporate. Among school vouchers, I mean, there are some when we when 293 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,000 we do ask about school vouchers, there are some differences, but still among 294 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:37,519 Democrats there's a net positive of support even for school voucher programs and so uh 295 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:44,759 and the same for charter schools. And so the levels of support for charters 296 00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:51,440 and school vouchers have been a little bit more uh uh in flux over time 297 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:56,319 as we've been doing our monthly tracking poll with Morning consult But I really yeah, 298 00:26:56,599 --> 00:26:59,799 to the degree, you know, listeners are really interested in polling, 299 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,519 and that's something that we do. Try to present those demographic breakouts, and 300 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:07,759 we try to make all the data available to the degree people want to wait 301 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,680 in the day. So there's a lot of it, especially in the cross 302 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:18,119 tabs files and and and you can and you can just just draw these comparisons. 303 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,160 But you know, but outside of the polling and like in you know, 304 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,440 the work that our policy and advocacy team do or training and outreach teams, 305 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:32,720 I mean they they are working with whoever is interested in the issue and 306 00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:37,759 want to see forward forward progress and and uh and we've seen a lot of 307 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:45,519 a lot of more interest uh, in recent years around essays and especially especially 308 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:52,559 since school closures around the pandemic and just that disruption and disruptive force and that 309 00:27:52,680 --> 00:28:00,519 shock to K twelve education around the country and then very varying a lot state 310 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,160 to state. But I think that you know, with so many of these 311 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:10,599 programs and the legislative activity of the last few years, has you know, 312 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:17,680 just channeled that uh, you know, desire for more opportunity and you know, 313 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:22,039 more options, more flexibility. Uh that you know, the parents have 314 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,920 been voicing in all sorts of ways, whether it's as a school board meetings, 315 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,319 which you know a lot of those uh those activities, you know, 316 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:36,119 those kind of demonstrations, or you know, just you know, being very 317 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,880 vocal about you know, their challenges that families are facing at school board meetings 318 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:48,079 or through you know, through other means voting and elections, which we don't 319 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:52,799 get involved in as an organization, but but we just you know, our 320 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,480 mission is to just continue to inform and just try to bring as much data 321 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:03,559 and information to bear on these issues. And and and really that doesn't take 322 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:08,519 on a particular political stripe from my experience, which is, you know, 323 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,920 on the research and data side and our team's experience, but also even on 324 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,839 the policy and advocacy side, where you know we are willing and able and 325 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:26,279 enthusiastic to talk to anyone about these these issues because really, you know, 326 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,440 it doesn't when it comes to you know, family experiences and student experiences, 327 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:36,039 those political and ideological lines off often. Oftentimes, like I said in a 328 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:41,960 moment ago, just kind of go away, Biden has to spend even more 329 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,079 of your kids and grandkids credit cards. Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 330 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,559 Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 331 00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:55,519 and how it affects your wallet. After last week's poor GDP numbers, it's 332 00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:59,039 going to be much harder for businesses to grow. We don't need economists to 333 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:03,599 lie for us on We see stagflation on the ground. Whether it's happening in 334 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680 DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. 335 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:10,440 Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, 336 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:15,640 or wherever you get your podcasts. So true. And I've heard you 337 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,720 know recently, and I think this is true of myself as well, people 338 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:23,799 expressing COVID fatigue. You know, they're sick of clicking on stories about COVID, 339 00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:27,680 sick of hearing about COVID. But I have to ask Paul how COVID. 340 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,920 I'm guessing this is a leading question, but I sort of galvanized the 341 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,799 school choice movement. And if that's true, you know, even today now 342 00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:41,559 that we're that we have some distance from COVID and it's a bit in the 343 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:47,960 rearview mirror. What role maybe you think or you've seen the decisions that some 344 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,559 unions made around the country are maybe even not some, but like the big 345 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,359 national union made around the country and in certain cities like Chicago, this was 346 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,640 especially acute. So is it did COVID galvanize the school choice movement? And 347 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:08,279 if so, what role did the decisions that unions made play into that? 348 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:15,480 So that's that's a really good question. And uh, to be candidate, 349 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:19,440 we don't have you know, we don't have the data to like make that 350 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:27,920 direct causal link there was between the kind of the union obstructionism and uh. 351 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,119 And this again is national union and it's not rank and file members. It's 352 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,119 the elites and the leadership of these unions who make these you know, who 353 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,839 end up making these decisions. Chicago is a great example, and then there 354 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:47,359 were some other cities as well that dealt with these closures for much longer periods 355 00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:52,000 of time because of that kind of obstruction. And uh So we don't have 356 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:57,400 the data to link that, but at the very least it energized, I 357 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,319 believe parents. And so there was kind of the action, you know, 358 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,640 reaction kind of effect here where parents I mean parent engagement, parent involvement in 359 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:16,359 their children's learning and their schooling. That is something that we have seen and 360 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:23,319 I've been with our organization for about almost eighteen years, and you know, 361 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:29,160 the levels of parent engagement interest, I mean it continues to you know, 362 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:32,480 increase at higher levels than we've you've seen and it's that certainly has happened over 363 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,920 the last four plus years. And so at least from from my point of 364 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,319 view, I mean, I eventually say, from our organization, our experience, 365 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,279 I mean that just you know, parents are more engaged, more activated, 366 00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:52,680 more interested, wanting more information and that has provided to some degree some 367 00:32:52,759 --> 00:33:02,720 counterbalance to the opponents of educational choice from whether it's the National Education Association or 368 00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:08,759 from the American Federation of Teachers. Uh And and so you have groups and 369 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:15,519 organizations like the National Parents Union as probably as one of the largest ones that 370 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:20,720 come to mind, who are very effective with parent ambassadors around the country and 371 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,680 organizing. Uh. And then there are just more local and state specific parent 372 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:34,640 groups and organizations that are not only activating parents, but and and but like 373 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,839 really zeroing on certain types of policies that can support families. And so I'm 374 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,359 thinking of Love your School in Arizona. They do work in Arizona as well 375 00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:50,640 as in West Virginia. I mean, they're really helping families navigate and consider 376 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,839 and review their options for their child's having a tough time in their current school. 377 00:33:54,519 --> 00:34:00,519 You know, how can the EESA program in Arizona help help them and 378 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:05,400 benefit them and really make be a positive change for their child? And so, 379 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:13,840 uh so there are more of these local and state organizations who we like 380 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,320 to work with and in many ways defer to their judgment too. And they 381 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:24,000 local, they understand the local environment and the local context better than we will, 382 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,199 and so we probably we try to provide the resources and the information that 383 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:36,880 can help them. And so so that's been exciting to see where yes, 384 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,840 there were you know these uh, you know, protest strikes that happened. 385 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,519 Uh and and even you know, extended closures during the pandemic. But then 386 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:53,719 you know, there's there's also been a positive effect or counter effect that I 387 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,400 guess, if you want to say, of parents just being much more engaged, 388 00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:02,880 much more involved, much more organized than ever before. That is just 389 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,000 fascinating. Paul, is there anything else you think people should know about the 390 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,760 work that you guys are doing at a Choice or maybe the broader moment, 391 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:15,800 broader movement before we wrap up? You know, I think no, I 392 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,039 appreciate that question, Emily. I mean, I think you know, people 393 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:25,000 are interested in polling and surveys. We do have a monthly tracking poll that 394 00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:31,000 we're actually just releasing in the next week, our latest poll parents in the 395 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,920 public. And then we do surveys of teachers and of teenagers twice a year, 396 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,599 but at the beginning and the ends of the school year, and so 397 00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:43,199 we just released a couple of reports there, and then we we have a 398 00:35:43,199 --> 00:35:49,000 lot of information on our website so about all the different types of educational choice 399 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,960 programs around the country. And so if anyone's interested in learning more about education 400 00:35:54,079 --> 00:36:00,320 savings accounts and uh and and you know what they can do for family lees 401 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:06,239 UH and and and other types of school choice policies and programs around the country. 402 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,280 We have a lot of data, historical data that goes back to the 403 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:14,360 inception of these programs, and then we're always happy to provide anything or just 404 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,000 answer any questions too, and really try to be as an open organization and 405 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,360 team for people interested in learning more about you know, what's happening in the 406 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:30,079 in the education of choice space, and what's happening in the states. Our 407 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:36,639 blog every month we have some updates about any of the latest developments that are 408 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:42,440 happening in states, and we've just this past week saw Missouri expand the eligibility 409 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,119 of their tax credit ESA program, which is really encouraging. We've seen a 410 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:54,360 new universal program be enacted in Alabama that was signed into law by Governor Ivy 411 00:36:54,559 --> 00:37:04,079 and then and Georgia even expanded uh UH and created their own program ESA program 412 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:08,079 this year. So we're starting we're still seeing movement UH just even in an 413 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:14,440 election year, which is not very typical, and so that just kind of 414 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,880 goes to show that there's momentum UH and that you know, is encouraging and 415 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,559 we're hoping to see more programs, expand the eligibility for students, lower the 416 00:37:24,639 --> 00:37:32,000 barriers for entry for entrepreneurs and micro school uh, micro schoolers uh to enter 417 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,559 the space, and and and and you know, and just to see more 418 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:43,599 entrepreneurial activity to balance the demand, to meet the demand that's been growing over 419 00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,559 the recent years. All right, well, you can find out more at 420 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:52,880 EdChoice dot org. Paul Daperna, thank you so much for getting us up 421 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,400 to date on everything that you guys are doing. It's great to be here. 422 00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,000 Thanks a lot, Emily, of course, I'm on Lagashinski, culture 423 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:02,599 editor here at The Federalist. You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist 424 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,039 Radio Hour. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers 425 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:17,719 of freedom and anxious for the fray. I heard the fame voice ser reson, 426 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:27,480 and then it faded away.