WEBVTT

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The o' chile effect is sponsored by
Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like

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you Now Night and in our media
December thirteenth, twenty twenty three. Allegedly,

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according to that thing we call a
calendar, this is the o'celly effect.

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So if you're hearing us live,
that's great, you're on the stream.

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We appreciate you. I went to
the stream a little late, but

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as per usual, the best laid
plans of mice men and guys named o'celly

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just don't work out. So here
we are. It is Wednesday, Wednesday,

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in the middle of the week,
and we are sticking to Some people

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have written to me recently and said, you're doing a lot of JMK stuff.

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Again, Yes I am, but
that's because there's a lot of good

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stuff to go over. And yes, I wanted to promote the conference before

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I went and all that. Oh
by the way, uh, you know,

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I got two guys with me tonight
that might have had something to do

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with that conference. Let's see if
you were paying attention, and let's save

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you were paying attention again, because
one of them is a return guesting one

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of them I've never had on before. Actually had to ask him exactly how

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to pronounce his name. I admit
all this stuff before I go to air,

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you know, and bring people on. Why not, I don't want

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to hide it. But anyway,
they are co authors in a weird way.

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I haven't seen too many of these
kind of books before, except when

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I guess somebody used to claim to
be the editor of a bunch of things

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that they put together, and they
would put together books in JFK Land,

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and that would be a thing.
This, however, is a different sort

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of effort. Now Jim Dugenio is
one of the authors of this book.

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I don't have him with me.
There's reasons for that. But anyway,

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I got two of the key guys
from this book, which has an interesting

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name to begin with, Choke Holds
all right, Yes, I said it,

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It's JFK Choke Holds all right.
Now. The subtitle choke holds that

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proved there was conspiracy, interesting way
of putting stuff. Almost sounds like I

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might have gave him the title,
but I didn't. And here we are

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again. It is a fascinating piece
because this has been attempted before, where

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people say, what are the key
elements that prove that there is a case

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to be made here that there is
some reason for disturbing the accepted history,

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that there was a loan shooter,
you know, and all of that good

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stuff. What are the key elements, And there've been mock trials, and

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we know some of the usual suspects
used to come out. Some of them

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have passed away now, but they
made careers for a little while out of

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it and all that good stuff.
Sure, and some of them were lawyers.

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And oh, there's a couple of
lawyers involved in writing this book.

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And I told these guys right before
we went to air exactly how much I

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love lawyers, and one of them
told me the best joke possible regarding that.

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And maybe we'll get to that in
a little bit, but enough out

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of me anyway. Paul Blow is
with me, and also Matt Crumpton.

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Now Matt is the guy who does
that solving JFK thing that we talked about

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before when it was still happening.
I'm not sure if he's done with that

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podcast or not, but I do
know that there was an episode not too

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long before I went to Dallas,
but I've kind of lost track of time

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because I was sick. We'll get
to all of that and exactly what party

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played in Choke Holds, and also
with Paul, who I'm pretty certain I

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ran into at the conference, although
it's a little bit of a blur now,

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So anyway, let's get to it. First of all, Matt,

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how you doing tonight? Sir?
Hey, Chuck, how's it going?

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Man? Thanks for having me on. Absolutely Look, you're a good guy.

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I love the way you were presenting
your podcast and didn't even know that

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there was a book going to be
with you attached to it. So here

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we go again. Why not have
another conversation, Paul, how are you

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doing tonight? Well? Absolutely great. Just to refresh your memory. When

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we met at Lancer, you and
I and I had a little discussion about

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Judas Ferry Baker. You remember you
told me that. Anyway, I'll it

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was an interesting conversation put it that
way. But you also introduced me because

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I spoke about Choe Holds at the
conference, right right, Well, that's

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why I was being a little playful
there at the beginning. But yeah,

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no, of course, and I
had one hundred conversations about about Judy at

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the conference, trying to dissuade people
from actually paying attention to her. But

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and I was giving away Walt Brown's
book, which you know contradicts anyway,

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Enough out of that, because let's
let's get into your work and what's going

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on here. And you did do
an interesting presentation, although I got to

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say, I was so busy with
other things I didn't see the whole thing.

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But I am going to go over
it again very soon. I want

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to go back over it because I
heard things about your presentation. So and

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anytime I hear anything about somebody's presentation
afterwards, that means I got to go

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back and look at it, because
you know, people yawned through most of

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it. We've heard a lot of
this stuff before. In other words,

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we've been through a lot of this
stuff before, Paul, and apparently you

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presented some things that maybe weren't an
old hat. I know that that almost

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sounds insulting, but it's not.
It means that if you had something new

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to say, believe me, it's
worth listening to. So and by the

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way, he is part of the
Lancer presentation. So if you got that,

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it's still available I think through Christmas
or maybe through the New Year on

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the website. If you were somebody
who going to take it for Lancer and

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you can check out Paul's presentation for
yourself there and we'll give you a website

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and everywhere to get the book when
we're done. So anyway, let's get

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to this. Who should I start
with? I mean, I guess I

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can look and see which author is
listed first in the book if I wanted

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to, right, which is Paul? Yeah? Hey, hey, real

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quick, Chuck, maybe we can
just just tell you the backstory of kind

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of how this came to be real
quick. Is that cool? You know

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what, Matt? I love this? Go right ahead please? Yeah.

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So, so basically this is last
year at the conference and Paul, I

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don't know if it was Lancer or
Kapa Tapa. Yeah, in Dallas and

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basically, uh, the night before
the conference started, I ran into Jim

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Diugenio and Paul, who knew each
other because they had recently they get Jim

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and Paul worked together for a while. Paul had him to uh come up

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to Quebec City for an event with
Oliver Stone and and Paul also appears in

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uh in Jim and Oliver's film Solving
JF I mean Solving JFK JFK Revisited.

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Uh. So so that's great.
But anyway, uh, we're there in

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the lobby of the night before and
so the four of the five authors kind

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of were just hanging out. We
got a drink together, you know,

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when you have jfk assassination sort of
experts I suppose, for lack of a

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better term, people who know a
lot more than the average person. It's

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kind of all you want to talk
about, right, and everybody has it.

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There's like all a little many controversies
within you know what I mean,

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like the inside baseball of it all. It's it's really cool. So anyway,

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we started talking could carry our conversation
on to the next day. We

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had lunch after going to Dealey Plaza
and we're kind of just like, what

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are the greatest hits? Like if
you could just make a few arguments of

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the absolute you know, slam dunks. And that's when Paul brought on this

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word choke hold, which I think
he picked up for Malcolm Blunt. But

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but yeah, that we we started
talking about that, and we kind of

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then we decided to do some sort
of a project together afterwards, and we

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voted on a list back and forth
of you know, sort of the greatest

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hits that we felt like we're you
know, either either they're indisputable or there

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are counter arguments, but the counter
argument, you know, a reasonable person

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wouldn't wouldn't be persuasive to a reasonable
person. Let's say, Okay, that's

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kind of really quick, Matt,
just really quick. For those who are

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unfamiliar with the name, Okay,
uh uh you know Malcolm Blunt. Uh,

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that means that you're actually unfamiliar with
the best experts on the case when

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it comes to JFK assassination and documentation
both things. Just wanted to note that.

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Go ahead, Matt. Yeah,
no, I have yet to meet

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mister Blunt, but certainly is highly
regarded. So anyway, yeah, we

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we kind of started those conversations,
started to have some skypes and kind of

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broke up the book into you know, assigning who's going to handle what chapters

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and uh and yeah, we went
from there. So I'll just say,

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you know, Paul Paul has several
chapters in this book where he was the

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principal author. I want to say, maybe four chapters in the book,

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maybe five. I have two where
I'm I'm the guy, and I'll just

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say I think the best my two
favorite chapters of the book, like and

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really the reason to buy the book
is the first chapter in the last chapter,

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both of which Paul wrote. And
the first one is all of the

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insider statements, so you know,
people who worked in investigations, you know,

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the Warren Commission, the Garrison Investigation, the HSCA ARB, all the

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all the investigations over the years,
Church Committee, what did they say,

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like, what did they kind of
stay behind the scenes, which is kind

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of close to a confession. And
then the last chapter is just documenting the

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history, including up to date with
the GfK Records Act of the obstruction of

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justice in this case since you know, since the investigation started. So anyway,

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yeah, maybe Paul can can take
it from there and if you want

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to have him walked through his chapters. But that's that's kind of how we

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got started. And like I said, the first from the last I think

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are the best chapters in the book. Okay, Chuck, if I can

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add to that, thank you,
Matt. But he's I think a bit

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humble because really the way he wrote
his chapters too, I think we're you

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know that they really helped us reach
the goals we were looking to reach.

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You're right, Chuck, that Malcolm
Blunt write his legendary and he used the

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word choke holds. The time I
heard him use the word choke holds is

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when he described how Oswald's file was
being managed when he was a you know,

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a defector quote unquote to the to
the in Russia. And he showed,

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because of Betsy Wolf's work for the
HSCA, that this isn't what a

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normal defector's file should look like.
And he used because what happened. First

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of all, they took over a
year to open a too oh one file.

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And for your audience, normally,
you know, a defector too on

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one file is as basic as you
can get. If someone has any is

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of any interest to intelligence, you'll
open a to a one file. If

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you're a defector, it should be
open day one. And it took over

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a year. And the other thing
that was abnormal was that the you know,

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the information on Oswald would not go
to the Soviet Russia Division. It

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would go to the Office of Security. And Betsy Wolf, who was a

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staffer for the HSCA, looked into
that very deeply and you know, found

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it. And when this information was
presented to Peter Bagley, who was a

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high up officer by Malcolm Blunt and
Peter Bagley confirmed to Balcom Blunt that Oswald

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had to be a witting false defector. So that's where Malcolm Blant used the

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word choke hold. Now, you
know, we made a few jokes about

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attorneys and all that and had a
good laugh before we went live. But

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here's what happened is the three attorneys
among the authors, what they did is

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they made sure that the evidence,
you know, the ten chapters or the

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ten bodies of evidence that we discussed, reached standards of proof that they would

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have been comfortable bringing to a jury. And what I mean by standards of

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proof, we were talking about two
standards. One is, I think the

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readers of the JFK assassination choke holds
would be convinced that he wouldn't have been

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found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. That
is one standard of proof that is required

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for criminal, you know cases.
The other standard of proof we looked at

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was, okay, what about you
know, what about our arguing that there

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was a conspiracy, And we brought
many areas of evidence that reached the level

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of clear and convincing evidence. And
these have legal meanings and they're important,

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and I think that is the way
the chapters are treated, and that's the

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way it's written. So the chapters, I don't think we're we go into

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hyper bowl or exaggeration. We give
facts, and you know when you read

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these facts. I'll just give you
one example. One of Maths chapters is

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he chronicles seventeen cases of impersonation.
Okay, that A's well being impersonated,

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whether it's in Mexico City while he
was in Russia. Well you might be

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able to explain one, two,
three, four, five, But why

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would a twenty four year old loan
not be impersonated? You know that it's

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not supposed to be on anybody's radar, and you know, so that that

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is one body of evidence, and
so that's that's I think the concept of

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chocals and how the authors I was
a little bit, you know, we

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didn't know one another. The only
person I knew before I went down to

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Kappa was Jim. I did not
know the three other authors and we met

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down there, and you know,
to be honest, there was some risk

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in this project. But I think
that the combination of you know, research

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research skills and knowledge and the legal
knowledge played I think an important role in

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the book. No, absolutely,
And you know, Matt describes the conversation,

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which is sort of laid out in
short at the beginning of the book,

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right where you know, what do
you guys think of the backyard photo?

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Is attributed to Matt. And I'll
tell you I can already see where

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I would have been disruptive in this
argument. And it's it's odd because there's

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nuance in all these things. And
I'm wondering how that got addressed, because,

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you know, trying to coordinate four
authors not an easy thing to do.

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I mean, I think if you
put four of us together who were

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interested in the case and tried to
order a pizza, it might be trouble.

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You know, really simple. What
do you guys think of the backyard

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photo? Okay, so according to
this Mark says fake, I'm just looking

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right at it, and Paul says, odds are it's fake? There seems

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to be crop lines along the chin. Well, all right, I would

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say immediately if I'm standing there,
here's my issue. And it comes up

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later in the conversation. I'm not
sure about the crop lines on the chin,

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but I gotta tell you that I
happen to know that if you take

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the shadows into account, which everybody
brings up next, they do work oddly

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enough. Why do I say that, because I've actually had a friend who

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stood there at that time of day, in that location. Okay, hell

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an object and duplicated the shadows.
That's exactly That's exactly why the way White

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Chuck we it didn't remake it into
the book. What you're saying right there,

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Right, it's a difficult thing.
Now, the crop ladoffs are disputable,

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and here's the thing, there's always
these nuances in the arguments. Could

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we all agree though, that it
was useful anyway as a device to convict

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him in the public's mind, because
they threw that thing across What Life magazine,

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right, which you know, the
majority of the country got to see.

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It was an infamous photo. It
continues to be an infamous photo.

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And there are many issues connected to
these photos that create a forest of problems.

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Twists and turns. One shows up, Roscoe White's wife has one,

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you know, all kinds of things, right, I mean, Matt,

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there's a lot of things that could
have went into that conversation. And as

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Paul said, that's why it's not
in the book, right, Yeah,

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and also you know on the photo
in particular, which we again we didn't

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that didn't make it in there's an
HFCA panel of photographic experts that specifically like

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granul granularly compared that photograph and the
type that was used in YadA, YadA,

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YadA. There's other there's counterpoints and
counterpoints and counterpoints. That's why we're

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all here doing this, right,
because then what's the counterpoint to that?

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Oh, well, the camera they
said, Marina, didn't they even actually

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know how to hold it? Like
there's a million we all, you know

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what I mean, that's kind of
what we do. We all kind of

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like flex to each other to show
each other, Hey, do you know

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this? Yes, I knew that? Well did you know this? You

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know what I mean. It's kind
of it's kind of fun, Like I

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really like being part of of the
group that kind of knows what's up.

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But uh, anyway, the backyard
photo, Yeah, I mean, like

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we got to reserve the possibility that
it is Oswald maybe because because like,

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right, if he's like a Witning
agent doing these things, who's to say

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that he didn't do you know,
the same thing. He's handing out pamphlets

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in New Orleans, like maybe it
was oz Well, or maybe it was

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someone who looked a lot like Oswald
and it wasn't Oswald. Maybe it will

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just like him, or maybe there's
the whole thing with Roscoe White and the

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cutout that's found in the Dallas Police
Department. I don't know. I'm not

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sure where I've landed. So what's
your final answer on the photos? Then,

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chuck? Yeah, Well, my
final answer is that Marina is not

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a reliable witness for various reasons,
so you got to put her aside and

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understand that it does appear to be
him. There's anomalies in those photographs though,

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that are endless one way or another. But like you said, the

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HSCA panel that went through it,
I don't think Groden agrees with it.

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I don't think Jim Deugenio agrees with
the analysis from the HSCA. But here

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we go. That's what I was
wanting to get at, is how it

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is that you come to a consensus
on something like this where everybody's name has

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to go into it, and there
are a million ways to dissect these things

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which we have now all been through. If we've been there for a couple

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of years, you know, just
to answer the process question. That's what

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we do in this JFK case talk, right, we go deep down the

256
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rabbit holes. But on that so
we just voted basically, and they were

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like the backyard photos was never in
the conversation. There were like fifteen and

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then we narrowed it down to ten
and we just voted on the ones that

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we had to all feel good about
it. And I think there were some

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that we thought were stronger than others
and dependent. You know, we didn't

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have complete overlapping agreement, but we
had enough agreement about what the top ten

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was and we had a pretty good
like voting process excellently. Okay, well

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that was what I was curious about. So I guess we should go back

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to Paul and get back to what's
in the book, right, or should

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we or should we go on to
you and talk about the first chapter?

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Well, that would be me in
both cases, that would be you in

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both cases. I'm sorry, Yeah, that is you. I'm a little

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mixed up. Excuse me. Go
ahead, Paul, let's go to you.

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Then I already made the decision,
and Matt please fill in because it's

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one of the the second longest chapter
is the first one. And the reason

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for that, and I'll explain is
that, you know, about ten years

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ago, Chuck I did an analysis
on how history books covered the JFK assassination,

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and you know, we went through
twenty one of the most popular textbooks

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for students in the US and Canada, and you know, you know,

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an overwhelming majority described the assassination as
one perpetrated by alone nun Oswald. Here's

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the thing is, I was able
to question the authors and I tried to

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get their sources for that, and
you know that almost all of them,

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not all, but almost all were
not aware that there were other investigations after

279
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the Warrant Commission, and their number
one source for writing what they wrote was

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the Warrens Commission report in nineteen sixty
four, repudiated document. So when I'd

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ask them and I'd say, hey, you know, the HSCA has this

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and that to say, you know, and they hadn't heard. Many hadn't

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heard of the HSCA. So what
that got me into is the American Historical

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Association and what should constitute an official
record? Okay, And they're clear in

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their quote of conduct. It says
that you know, when you're writing history.

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You should evolve with new information,
and yet all these history book writers

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were gelled into the year nineteen sixty
four. So what I find is fantastic

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about chapter one is we go through, first of all, what the reports

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actually say, and we go into
what the insiders said. And the insiders.

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Let me define an insider. An
insider is someone who's either a police

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officer, it could be a medical
expert. It could be a staffer in

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one of these investigations. It could
be a commissioner, it could be legal

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counsel. So we're talking about,
you know, people, and when you

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get into it, chuck and you
look at even the Warrant Commission had an

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awful lot of dissension, and especially
as time went on. But if you

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go and you got into the Church
Committee, and then you get into the

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HSSE and you get into the ARB, and you start, you know,

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reading what did Richard Schweiker for your
audience. Richard Schwiker was a Republican Senator

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and he was one of the you
know, the co chairs of that special

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committee in the Church Committee that looked
into how the intelligence agencies did their work

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in the jfk assassination. The other
co chair was Gary Hart. And if

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you listen to what both of these
people say is they're saying basically that there

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was a conspiracy and that the Warren
Commission did not do their work property nor

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did the intelligence agencies that were investigating
it. And it's right there in the

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reports. But furthermore, it's you
know, like everybody. I don't know

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if Chuck you remember that famous line. I think it was for a BBC

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documentary where Richard Schiker says that Warren
Commission has in fact collapsed like a house

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of cards, and and I believe
was set up to feed pablem to the

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American people. I mean, that's
a historical trace. It's not Chuck o'chelly

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saying it. It's not Matt Crumpton, it's not Paul Blow, it's not

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Jim Dugidio. These are the insiders, the real people. And we have

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ninety you know, over and above
what said in the reports. We have

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you know, Robert Blakey, Tannenbaum, Jeremy gunn Horn and and and then

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we even have staffers. I talked
to you about Bessie Wolf and the the

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physicians that were at the says,
then the physicians and nurses that were at

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Parkland. And when you read that
chapter, what it does, in my

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opinion, is it puts people like
us really on the side of what the

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insiders, the people who spoke to
witnesses, the people who had access to

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classified documents, the people you know
who you know went into the executive sessions,

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the people who had a bird's eye
view. And what mainstream media tends

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to do is what they get fake
experts on fake experts, who who who?

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When you say, well, what
was your credit were you there,

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did you talk to witnesses? Have
you gone through the documents that have been

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released or declassified? And you know, they decide who these expert pundits are.

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But the real experts are much closer
to what you know people who believe

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in the conspiracy have to say.
So what the others have been so successful

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00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.240
at is saying, you know,
conspiracy theorists, they're out on a limb.

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And you know, Bobosi used to
call us quacks and things like that,

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But yet who's on our side?
I much prefer having Schweiker on my

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side and Gary Hart and tan and
Baum and Delghorn. That's why that chapter

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and look, the readers will have
links to video, still have links to

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articles, still have links to the
actual pages in the reports that confirm these

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blistering statements. And if anybody after
chapter one still would want to refer to

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the Warren Commission as their main source
of information, well then you know,

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00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:12.599
there's no way they'll ever ever change, and I think they'll come a lot

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closer to at least thinking, well, these people that wrote this book aren't

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so crazy. So that's what I
liked about chapter one. And what's good

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is it sets the tone because the
next chapters will go back to saying,

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well, not only do we have
this evidence, but listen to what so

340
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and so of the HC had to
say about it. So that's what I

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in a nutshell, what chapter one
is about is what is the official record?

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00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.920
Well that's why I took time on
this show with Larry Hancock to go

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through. Let's talk about the official
investigations, all of them, because a

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lot of people fail to recognize that
there were a great many. And you

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have to count Garrison's investigation as well, because that is the District Attorney of

346
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:04.960
you know, okay, and whatever
you think of the conclusion or the conduct

347
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.960
of those investigations, let's lay them
all out and I did that, you

348
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know, which meant I had to
go to the Clark panel. I had

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to go to you know, Pike
and Church and Rockefeller and of course the

350
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HSCA. And there's this other Justice
Department inquiry that occurs in eighty eight or

351
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.720
eighty six, I forget whish that
doesn't even have a name. But there

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were various official investigations one way or
another. Now people would say, well,

353
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the AARRB is not an investigation in
a technical sense, Yes, but

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it did investigate aspects here because they
had to make sure that the records would

355
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be legitimate when they were entered into
the records collection. So therefore there was

356
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investigative aspects to the ARRB, although
it was not their primary focus to find

357
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I took it. I mean,
they took depositions, right, because they

358
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:03.079
had to clear up the whole medical
aspect. So they did question Jume's Bosswell,

359
00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:07.960
you know, so they did investigate
certain areas. But you're right,

360
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:14.240
their job was to manage the declassification, if I could put it that way,

361
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right, which meant that the functionality
was to make sure that records were

362
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legitimate. Therefore those interviews were necessary. Those depositions were necessary, that's the

363
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way that went. But they were
not, as a matter of fact,

364
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:30.359
attempting to solve the crime. But
either way, some of these other investigations

365
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.039
are wholly unknown, even by some
people who think they understand this case.

366
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I mean, I mentioned the Clark
panel. I bet you both of you

367
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guys know who what that was.
Not everybody does, so it's very interesting.

368
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Now here's another part of this though, and it's something that if at

369
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a bare minimum, the history books. Let's start with your premise from ten

370
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years ago, and I bring this
up on my show all the time.

371
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The history books used to contain two
sentences. I know this because I was

372
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in a poor school. So when
I went to school in the later seventies,

373
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they didn't even get up to the
Kennedy assassination in our history books.

374
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Right, I go into the eighties
or so, we finally have the Kennedy

375
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assassination in the books, and it
is literally two sentences. And that's all

376
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it was. It was the Warrant
Commission concluded this, it's most likely this

377
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:25.200
is what happened. He died in
custody, end of story. Yeah,

378
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.759
that's it, I mean, and
it's two sentences long, literally, Paul,

379
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.440
am I misrepresenting what you found in
those history books ten years ago.

380
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.640
Yes, you're right. The only
source is the Warrant Commission, and you

381
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:45.920
know, a blue ribbon panel of
you know, highly distinguished people, you

382
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.279
know, came out with that concluded. Sometimes they'll say, you know,

383
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:55.920
but they'll always be controversy, and
you know, but there's not a word

384
00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.559
about the HSA. At a bare
minimum. By the time we're into the

385
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.960
nineteen eighties, it should have said
there are at least two official conclusions by

386
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.160
the United States government. Because they
are separate, they are different slightly,

387
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:15.599
the hsca's conclusion and the Warren Commission's
conclusion. It should at the very least

388
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.319
note that in one case, yes, they say Oswald acted alone. Ruby

389
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.519
acted alone, which, by the
way, we're gonna have to get to

390
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:26.039
Jack Ruby at some point here,
you know. And that's that for the

391
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:32.319
Warren Commission. But the HSCA concluded, indeed Oswald is guilty again, but

392
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:37.960
it's likely there was a conspiracy,
and that is their conclusion, open ended.

393
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:44.559
Yes, but that was two separate
and equally important official conclusions by the

394
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.119
government. Yes or no, Well, yeah, Matt, maybe can you

395
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:53.200
I'm going to express an opinion here, but normally the one that comes later

396
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.440
that lasted longer, you know,
over two years, and then looked into

397
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:04.119
not only information the Warrant Commission had, but new information. Right, It's

398
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:11.599
sort of like an appeal. Right, And this is after the Church Committee

399
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:19.200
and the HSCA point out the defects
in the Warrant Commission investigation. Which should

400
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:26.200
you give more weight to, right, the earlier one or that lasted nine

401
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.519
months or the later one that comes
in ten years, you know, and

402
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:36.559
lasts longer in my opinion, and
maybe Matt, you can you know if

403
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.799
you were, if you were to
look at this legally, what you know?

404
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:45.359
It seems to me the Church and
the HSCA should be given more weight

405
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:51.039
than the Warrant Commission. That's that's
in terms of the American Historical Association.

406
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.680
It says, Okay, we've got
new information, and what have we learned

407
00:31:55.720 --> 00:32:00.160
since the classification is a whole other
question, you know, Like with you,

408
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.880
documents have come up, so I
don't know, Matt, what you

409
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:08.519
think on them. Yeah, I
mean I would say in theory what you're

410
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.000
saying makes sense, Like as a
metaphor, you know, like, hey,

411
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:16.000
we had the first shot at it. New information was for The problem

412
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:19.400
is, I'm an actual lawyer,
so I'm trying to think in terms of

413
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:23.079
like, oh, what rule of
civil procedure would this work under? But

414
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:28.240
I mean, I mean the reality
is once you zoom into the history of

415
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.079
it, not just the law.
I think they all kind of stand for

416
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:37.519
themselves in terms of when I say
they all, including the ARRB. You

417
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:43.000
know, they all have their own
body of evidence, right. We have

418
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.559
the Warrant Commission has a ton of
evidence, right, And then you've got

419
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:52.400
You've basically had that. You've got
Garrison Case, Pike, Church, HSCA,

420
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.039
all those documents, many of which
came out with the JK Records Act

421
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.640
and with the ARB SO and then
the ones that keep coming out. You

422
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:05.079
kind of have to balance. And
my answer is, yes, kind of,

423
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.000
I hear what you're saying, but
they kind of all have different things

424
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:14.160
they're doing. And I think you
have to look at the Church and the

425
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:21.279
HSA just in terms of they opened
up the whole door to the conversation about

426
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.480
what the CIA was doing around the
world, and what the CIA was doing

427
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:30.640
in Cuba especially, you know,
hand in hand with Cuban exiles and mafia

428
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.400
folks that have kind of been tied
to this case. So that's that would

429
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.960
be my answer is in legal terms, I would call it a totality of

430
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:44.720
the circumstances the test to where you're
grabbing facts from every different aspect of the

431
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:50.240
investigation. But I think the the
late like, for example, okay,

432
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.720
the brain, let's look at let's
look at the evidence of the brain.

433
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.200
Let's apply your question to the brain. You know, so at first,

434
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.640
whatever the Warner report says about the
brain that you know, it was there

435
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.480
was, it was kind of messed
up at the top, and whatever they

436
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:10.400
you know, they did what they
did with it. But then we find

437
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:15.079
out in the HSCA. You know, I forget what Stringer said at the

438
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:20.920
HSCA. The photography canuts and also
testify at the HSCA. But then the

439
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.760
ar RB Stringer's talking about, that's
the last one. He's kind of he's

440
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:27.840
saying, hey, we didn't even
take bassial reviews, didn't even take shots

441
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.239
from underneath the brain. Oh this
is a different type of film, you

442
00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:35.599
know what I mean, same thing
with Sondra Spenser. So so to me,

443
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.800
that's you would go, well,
Wait a minute, they don't even

444
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:43.199
have the same film, and there's
like they have specific facts. Why they're

445
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.679
saying that there's a reason to actually
believe it. That's that's wild. So

446
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.760
yeah, you know, I think
that's the case. But in some cases,

447
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:53.079
the evidence that was brought out by
the Warren Report may be the best

448
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.239
case, you know what I mean. So yeah, I know you you

449
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.320
have to look at the raw data
too, I guess you know that good

450
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:06.159
point. And you know, Chuck, you were talking about the Garrison investigation,

451
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.760
right, believe it or not.
I actually read his nine thousand files

452
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.519
and the thing that people don't understand
is his you know, the legal case

453
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.039
was one thing, but his raw
data, the raw data, you know,

454
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:24.239
like here's a deposition they took,
and here's what so and so.

455
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:31.840
I'd say, here's a polygraph result
report. There's some really interesting information in

456
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:38.679
there, and you know, you
you can take that information and if you

457
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:45.280
because you know what poor Garrison was. You know, I'm not saying the

458
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:50.920
guy was perfect, but to a
certain degree he was vindicated by Tanenbaum and

459
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:55.800
the HSC later because they said,
hey, look, you know what they

460
00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:05.199
found out that clay Shaw did have
intelligence connections, something he denied, and

461
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.639
they, you know, they came
to the conclusion that there was most likely

462
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:14.639
a relationship between Oswald and David Ferry. Okay, so that the Lincoln incident,

463
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:21.920
you know, in Lincoln where so
many people saw David Ferry with Oswalt

464
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:28.239
and possibly Clay Shaw. They don't
say definitely. So but what I'm saying

465
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:31.920
is if you take the raw data
and you go through and I'm glad you

466
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.639
did that with Larry Hancock, by
the ways, you went through investigation after

467
00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:43.159
investigation, and well and you ask
yourself what is the official record? But

468
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:49.400
you know, does does the CBS
do that? Does the CNN do that?

469
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.800
When you know, when they invest
the pundit on, did they actually

470
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:55.079
say what is the official record?
Well, what's funny is that in the

471
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:01.039
old days, CBS and these other
outlets used to actually do some work behind

472
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:05.920
all this, right, and they
did in nineteen sixty eight or sixty seven,

473
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.920
I forget, which a series of
shows four nights in fact, where

474
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:15.639
they took people and tried to recreate
the shooting, and they had independent people

475
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:20.199
they said, examine stuff. Of
course, if you look into those backgrounds,

476
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.440
you find out who everybody is and
all that good stuff. But it's

477
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.079
interesting what they put on at first. Nowadays, all they do they're very

478
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:31.000
lazy. They just drag out Gerald
Posner, and that's only because Vince Bugliosi

479
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:36.760
died, you know, And that's
it, right, And then we complain

480
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.519
a little while, and who do
they call? They call Jeff Morley,

481
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.679
and that's fine, that's good.
I'm happy to hear from Jeff Morley.

482
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.280
But at first, what are we
confronted with? Usually? You know,

483
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:51.280
Gerald Posner? Why because he wrote
a best selling book. That's the explanation.

484
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.800
Vince Bugliosi. Yeah, okay,
Anyway, I don't want to get

485
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:59.960
into that too far, because let's
go back to what it is you got.

486
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:05.840
We're writing about Oswald's intelligence connections.
Is the next chapter in the book.

487
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.119
But I'm not going to go chapter
per chapter, Matt. I look

488
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:13.480
for your guidance here as to where
we should jump to next regarding this,

489
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.320
because this is this is really interesting, Like I said, where you got

490
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:20.800
four authors coming together, and I
like that you have the legalistic approach.

491
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:23.559
I really should have pin you down
with my question and said, well,

492
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:30.440
you know, a counselor what would
be the official conclusion according to the US

493
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:35.239
government, there is where I should
opin you down and been specific because that's

494
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:39.800
what you got to do, right, the official conclusion of the case.

495
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:45.760
Yes, well that's what that's what
I'm trying to find out with the podcast.

496
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:47.559
I'm trying to you know what I
mean. Obviously that's what we were

497
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:52.599
all We've all been trying to find
out our whole lives ever since we started

498
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.000
all studying this, right. But
in terms of me going on the record

499
00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:00.000
and taking a position, I'll do
that when I when I get done with

500
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.079
season three. So just quickly to
address your you were talking, you're asking

501
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:06.880
if I'm still doing the project.
I finished season one. August eighth was

502
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:12.159
the last episode that came out,
and I picked back up November twenty second,

503
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:16.280
was season two. I did a
quick a couple bonus episodes and got

504
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:22.679
an interview with Paul and the other
co authors on the Chokeholds book. Did

505
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:29.000
a special episode about the Pittsburgh conference, did a special episode deep diving on

506
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:37.039
Paul landis who's from my hometown?
It's crazy and anyway, and now we're

507
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:45.239
doing the season two is who was
Oswald? Really? So it's deep diving

508
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:49.360
on Oswald because where we landed on
season one, I made conclusions on fifteen

509
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.519
topics. Eight of them I find
are inconclusive, seven of them I find

510
00:39:53.880 --> 00:40:00.559
support that the warrant report was in
was incorrect, aka you know that there

511
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:05.840
was likely a conspiracy. So that
those were my findings. And the one

512
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.719
that I wrote a choke old chapter
about that I've covered so far is Oswald

513
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:15.199
being in place in the sixth floor. So you know, each chapter is

514
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:21.719
specifically written by an author, right
by the author who knows about the chapter

515
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:25.559
or who studied it. So for
example, like I haven't done the deep

516
00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:30.599
dive on Oswald's intelligence ties yet,
I really like I'm in the midst of

517
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:37.599
that journey right now. But I
had done the deep dive on Oswald on

518
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.079
the sixth Floor, like I did
two full episodes. You know, I've

519
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:44.400
already written like forty pages on it, and I already had all the incitations.

520
00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:46.800
It was pretty easy. And then
Oswald was impersonated. That was my

521
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:53.199
other chapter just in the season one
of the podcast, you know, not

522
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:57.960
even looking at what he was up
to in New Orleans and things that were

523
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.719
you know, Russia just really just
looked looking at sort of right around November

524
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:07.320
twenty second, there were many instances
of Oswald being impersonated, you know what

525
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.599
I mean. So so so there
you go. So that's what we're covering

526
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:14.960
right now. We're covering who is
Oswald? Really? We'll do season two,

527
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.119
then I'm gonna have a season three
and season three is gonna be If

528
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:22.880
not Oswald, then who right?
So, and I'm not even like I

529
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.559
I don't think Oswald could have been
in place in the sixth floor. I

530
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:30.119
mean I think that we decided that's
the choke hold. There is a dispute

531
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:35.719
on that, and and it kind
of you know, it boils down here.

532
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:37.199
To answer your question, let's do
this, Chuck, if I could

533
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:43.079
just quickly talk about both of the
chapters just briefly. Sure me. Let

534
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.119
me just let me just throw something
at you that's in my live chat room

535
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:51.880
though, if you don't mind,
which is is pretty interesting. Uh the

536
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:54.440
this is this is directed at you, So let me make sure I have

537
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:59.840
it in front of me when I
read it. Yes, just Crumpton.

538
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.519
The only legal opinion ever issued on
the warrant report was by the judge,

539
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:08.880
and the Garrison case declared the report
was actually hearsay and therefore not a legal

540
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.920
document. And I'm pretty sure that's
correct, but you could correct what if

541
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:21.840
you like. That time in there, I think that was the when sorry,

542
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:27.039
I'm not sure that was the judge, but when Garrison brought it to

543
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.800
I'm sorry, I'm looking for the
terms because he had to present it to

544
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:36.480
a grand jury, right, And
I think it was at that point that

545
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:43.199
the judge determined that it wasn't it
was hearsay based too much on hearsay.

546
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.320
Wells, defense, I made you
wrong on that Shaw's defense at some point.

547
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.639
I again, I'm just reading from
what the chat room said. Well,

548
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:53.880
I do recall that Shaw's defense tried
to enter it as evidence and it

549
00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:58.599
was rejected based on the fact that
I was considered hearsay. But I don't

550
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:01.000
remember if it was during the grand
jury worthy see here we go, Here's

551
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:06.800
you can know a million things.
But anyway, Yes, and he's saying

552
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:08.679
in the chat room right now,
the defense tried to enter the Moren report.

553
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:13.880
Yes, I'm saying that they did. They attempted to enter it his

554
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.239
evidence and it was rejected. But
I don't recall whether it was during the

555
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:22.039
grand jury or it was during the
actual proceeding against Sean. Do you do

556
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:27.239
you remember, Matt. No,
that's actually news to me. So thanks

557
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.559
for the heads up. Yeah,
I mean you know, like like I

558
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:35.599
said, I really am learning as
I go. Here. I'm writing the

559
00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:38.239
uh you know, I just did
a deep dive on Oswald's background as a

560
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:45.400
kid, and now I'm step diving
on the on the marine stuff. So

561
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.840
I'm going through all those all those
records, all the granular details, learning

562
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.519
all the fun little anecdotes of all
the things that happened to Ozwald while I

563
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.400
was in the marine. So so
yeah, and then if I miss something,

564
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.559
I have a rebuttal episode and people
can tell you and then I'll include

565
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.639
include their thing if they send me
a citation. So right, well,

566
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.159
remember your remember though of your member
of audience is very astute, because she's

567
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:13.559
right that it was refused. Yeah, yes, yeah, he's correct,

568
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:16.119
Jay, Jimmy, Yeah, he's
correct. And the other thing. I

569
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:20.760
love it you're going through Oswald stuff
because uh you know, let me know

570
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:22.440
when you get to the part where
it suggested that he might have gotten VD

571
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:27.800
and also let me know how entertaining
it is when he shoots himself with an

572
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:30.440
on with with it with an an
authorized weapon. I love that. Go

573
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:36.920
ahead, Yeah, yeah, he
shoots himself. He he freaks out in

574
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.480
Taiwan, starts randomly shooting in the
woods. Yep. All kinds of fun

575
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:45.719
stuff going on. Yeah, so
so. But but okay, these these

576
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:50.840
two chapters, let's just talk about
Oswald being a place in the sixth floor.

577
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.800
So the whole conversation basically comes down
to, you know, there's there

578
00:44:54.840 --> 00:45:00.199
are a million sub points, okay, but the the highlight to me that

579
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:07.960
that kind of laid out in the
chapter is that just following the timelines of

580
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:15.239
things, Okay, Kennedy shot at
what twelve thirty twelve thirty one, and

581
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:20.960
we we we know that Arnold Rowlin
saw a white guy with a gun in

582
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:32.079
the in the window at twelve fifteen. We know that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald

583
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:37.239
at in the warrant report of the
FBI report says twelve fifteen on the on

584
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:42.559
the first floor, but she told
her old Goals it was twelve twenty five

585
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.280
on the second floor. So if
she's seeing him at twelve twenty five,

586
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:50.159
and she says that's what she originally
told the FBI, and he came to

587
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:52.000
her This wasn't like a you know, she was. She wrote a book.

588
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:55.960
She wrote she found a bullet on
the back of the thing, and

589
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:04.079
she wrote a book. No,
but but anyway, So obviously, if

590
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.760
she sees him at twelve twenty five, he can't be there on the sixth

591
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:13.679
floor. Even if she sees him
at twelve fifteen on the first floor,

592
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:17.639
how can he be the guy in
the window that Arnold Rollan sees at twelve

593
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:22.480
fifteen on the sixth floor. That
doesn't make any sense, all right,

594
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.440
So nobody sees him with a gun
in the building. Jack Doherty doesn't see

595
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:29.159
him enter the building with a gun. Nobody sees him going up to the

596
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:32.840
sixth floor. You got Charles Gibbons, who worst case scenario. He probably

597
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.199
made the story up, we find
out after the fact, and people can

598
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:42.400
disagree with that if they want to, but there's some reason to believe.

599
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:49.840
And all he does is put him
up there around noon. Billy, I'm

600
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.800
sorry, Bonnie Ray Williams is sitting
there eating chicken. He doesn't see anything,

601
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:57.880
which is I always think that's crazy
about the case. But then there's

602
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:04.400
the whole girl on the stairs,
Thevictoria Adams uh Sanders styles the story of

603
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.920
you know, immediately after the shots
are fired, before the uh, before

604
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:17.280
the presidential Lemo went under the the
the overpass. They they left to run

605
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:22.440
down the stairs. And Oswald would
have had to be running down the stairs,

606
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:23.800
and he was on the sixth floor. They were on the fourth floor.

607
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:27.239
So who had had to cross and
you know, when you kind of

608
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.039
time it up, he would have
had to have run into them. And

609
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:35.360
they didn't see anybody or hear anybody. Doherty, I believe, also was

610
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.159
near the stairs and he didn't hear
anybody either coming down. But but uh,

611
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:45.519
now there the whole argument is.
And I've gotten deep on this with

612
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:52.039
with some folks that are you know
that you know, they're they're Warren Report

613
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:58.039
defenders, and and they their position
is this whole thing gets in he gets

614
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:04.400
real granular in the weeds. But
there's this whole thing of Billy. I'm

615
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:10.079
sorry. These two guys, love
Lady and Shelley a thing lovely, right,

616
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:15.239
yeah, love Lady and Shelley.
They they say that they went to

617
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.119
it may not be Shelley, maybe
somebody else, but these two guys say

618
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:22.320
that they they went to the railroad
tracks and then they came back and they

619
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:25.519
saw her. But if they saw
her come down after they went to the

620
00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:28.960
railroad tracks and they had already come
back, then it must have been much

621
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:32.239
later, because they didn't come back
from the railroad tracks until later. So

622
00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:39.480
there's that whole thing. And then
basically her statement to the FBI is that

623
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.719
she did see them, but you
know, in other words, so her

624
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:50.519
statement would support that that you know, she came down later, which in

625
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.199
other words, would invalidate her argument
that she was should have been the stairwell

626
00:48:54.199 --> 00:49:00.559
at the same time as Oswald.
But when it turns out out she says

627
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:05.599
she told Earl Goals or not Earl
Goals, who's the guy that wrote Girl

628
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:14.559
on the Stairs? I can't Yeah, yeah, scary ernest. I believe

629
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:20.239
she told him or send some other
record that she signed it under duress.

630
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:24.000
That basically like, yeah, they
came back, they told me I needed

631
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.119
to sign it. I didn't feel
like I had a choice. But but

632
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:30.239
that was not my statement at all, So there you go. So that's

633
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:34.719
what it comes down to. Like
but but but even if that's but even

634
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:37.880
if her whole thing, you know, if you throw out her part of

635
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:42.000
the story, it still doesn't look
like he could have been there. I

636
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:45.519
mean literally, all you have is
Howard Brennan, who, first of all,

637
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:46.840
there's no way you could have seen. It was too too far away.

638
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:50.760
You could see a person there,
you can probably see like if they're

639
00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:52.320
dark complexed or not, or if
they had glasses or not, you could

640
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.760
identify their face if you had never
seen them before. From that far away,

641
00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:00.599
there's no way if you've been there
before. He gives the from six

642
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:05.599
floors down, how do you identify
somebody's height in a dirty window from six

643
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:12.440
floors down? Sorry, guys,
you know who really pointed out the problem

644
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:17.880
with Brennan. It's tannonbamb Tannon Baum
says, when we looked over that guy's

645
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:22.639
testimony and Jim's brought it up,
Jim the Eugenius says he refused Brennan to

646
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:30.639
come back and give a deposition to
the HCA. Brennan totally refused because he

647
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:34.360
said, I'm going to get an
attorney. So the hs never heard directly

648
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:38.039
from him. But Tannerbaum said,
look, when you go to where he

649
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:42.239
was, and he's got to look
through a window and he's got to figure

650
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:46.400
out height, and you know it's
Oswald got a rifle in front of his

651
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:52.480
face and so on to so Tannerbomb
says, this is the worst witness you

652
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:57.920
know for placing someone that we've ever
heard, right, So that comes from

653
00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:02.039
Tannenbaumb at the HSCA, the star
and star witness of the Warren Commission report,

654
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:06.840
because really that's the guy who puts
him there with the gun and everything.

655
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:13.119
Guy puts him on the sixth floor
now here. Here's one little thing.

656
00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:16.840
I'm going to throw this in because
it's not in our book, and

657
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:23.760
it's okay, But you know Oswald's
alibi, right, the two people put

658
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:29.960
together what his alibi was. One
I just finished reading her book and it's

659
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:36.360
Sylvia mahar in accessories after the fact. The other guy spoke at the Lancer

660
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:43.400
conference. It's Spark Camp and basically
Oswald's head right, that I was having

661
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:49.239
lunch on the first floor and he
says that he was two with two African

662
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.920
Americans I think to the back.
Then he said black people. One of

663
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:58.119
them is Junior and the other guy
I don't know his name. Now Junior

664
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:01.360
and the other guy were interrogated and
they said, oh, there was a

665
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:06.119
guy there, but we don't know
who it was. So what Sylvia Mahar

666
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:13.840
points out is, how the hell
did Oswald point out these two people who

667
00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.199
were who admitted being on the first
floor during that period of time that he

668
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:23.239
was at. And the second instance
is he says Oswald says, I went

669
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:29.920
out afterwards with Shelley and some people
some I'm paraphrasing. Well, Shelley did

670
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:32.559
go out, okay, but we
don't know who the other people were.

671
00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:38.760
So what Oswald said, you know, so I find I haven't read Bartkamp's

672
00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:45.400
book, but I think if you, if you put it together with you

673
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:50.320
know, with Sylvia Mahar stuff,
I think Matt ifever we do a second

674
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:55.639
edition, we may be able to
add some some you know, information also.

675
00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:00.400
But anyway, I just wanted to
bring that up because I found what

676
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:05.599
bart Camp did in his book he
explained how he went about it unbelievable.

677
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:09.519
No, it's very interesting, And
just to correct something from earlier, let's

678
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:14.400
be specific. It was actually at
Shaw's preliminary hearing. I went to my

679
00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.920
transcripts while you guys were talking and
looked it over real fast. It was

680
00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:22.360
during the preliminary hearing for Shaw where
the warrant commission was offered and rejected,

681
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.920
and the judge's name was Baggered b
A G E R T according to the

682
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:30.880
transcript. So there you go if
you want to check the reference on that

683
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:35.079
and find out where it was,
all right, And I've offered a link

684
00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:37.119
to I found a link online as
well and put it in the chatroom atchelli

685
00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:39.960
dot com, so it's there if
you guys want to read it. But

686
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:45.039
I went to my transcript on my
computer first to get it and then sought

687
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:50.719
it out online afterwards. Anyways,
here, here's the thing about this,

688
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:55.039
though, is every single one of
these little nuances there's a problem with.

689
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:59.960
It's not you have to give Oswald
an alibi, you know, literally,

690
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:02.760
Yeah, when we're talking about offering
this up, trying to come up with

691
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:08.480
what needs to be offered into evidence
right in a legal proceeding, it's not

692
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:15.760
about coming up with an alibi.
An alternative explanation is helpful but not necessary.

693
00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:20.400
You're right. First, they have
to prove their case. Now,

694
00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:23.639
if you need to dispute it,
that's another issue. But here's the problem.

695
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:28.119
Could the case be proven in the
first place, which is one of

696
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:31.159
the initial reasons why you guys involved
the lawyers here and stuff, right,

697
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:36.559
I mean, well why you were
involved, Matt, right, So help

698
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.880
me out here. Isn't that really
the order of things? First, there

699
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:44.440
needs to be an established case against
it. We could talk about all the

700
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.280
problems the way his rights were mishandled, you know, like Johnny Cards did

701
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:52.639
at Lancer, etc. We could
do that all day, but somebody might

702
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.760
say, well, look, still
the evidence remains. But does it that's

703
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.519
the biggest question. Do you even
have it to begin in with to present

704
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:05.599
a reasonable case? Is that not
the right way to look at this,

705
00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:13.760
Matt of I mean, it's it's
just so complicated because there's, like we

706
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.639
were talking about earlier, there have
just been so many different investigations, and

707
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:21.800
there's been so much evidence that's already
generated. But you know the question and

708
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:28.960
that, you know, it is
hard to separate the evidence from you know

709
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:35.800
that it's hard to separate all the
little things everybody knows from you know,

710
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.840
whatever specific things might be plaied.
It's just it's a hypothetical at this point,

711
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:43.559
so it's kind of it's kind of
tough. Well, that's why the

712
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:47.639
complication has to be boiled back down
to these chokeholds and why it is you

713
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:52.480
have to come down to the very
simple understandings of the case to prove this

714
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:58.639
point that this is not a slam
dunk. This is not a slam dunk

715
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:01.400
for the Warrant Commission, they have
not been vindicated over the years, much

716
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:07.000
like Paul was explaining. In fact, their entire position has collapsed bit by

717
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:12.320
bit. You know, Schweiker said
it a house of cards, but you

718
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:15.400
can see this over the years,
it has been absolutely destroyed in my mind,

719
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:21.679
outside of a very few things,
has there been and all. And

720
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:23.320
this is the weird thing about this
case in general, and I want to

721
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:28.000
get both of your takes on this, is that, in general, all

722
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:30.800
the work that we've either been involved
with or witnessed or been able to go

723
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:36.719
back through in the media, the
the literature, the history of this case,

724
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:43.360
whether it's the government investigations, the
official investigations, the individuals who have

725
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:46.760
investigated this privately at their own expense, who have gone through those issues,

726
00:56:47.239 --> 00:56:52.000
all of this stuff over the years. The strange thing is that in almost

727
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:58.960
any other murder case in history,
over time, things become much clearer,

728
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:02.639
things become much more simplified. A
lot of things get eliminated, it seems

729
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:07.760
like to me, even in any
cold case where a case evolves over time

730
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:12.199
because there's interest in it, it
seems like new science comes in, new

731
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:16.039
something comes in, It eliminates problems, it eliminates theories, it eliminates.

732
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:21.320
That has not been the case with
this case. And I feel like your

733
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:25.000
book is an attempt to boil these
things back down. Am I right or

734
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:28.719
wrong? You can address all of
that, and I want to go to

735
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:32.559
Paul first on that if you don't
mind that, and then let you conclude

736
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:36.559
because we've been through just about an
hour of discussion already, believe it or

737
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:39.679
not so, and that's what I
plan on having you guys for. Obviously,

738
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:43.800
can come back again. We can
talk about this some more. But

739
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:45.519
and I know I derail things.
I'm aware of that. Matt. I'm

740
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:51.159
sorry. I can hear your frustration. No, No, you're asking good

741
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:53.920
questions. But please, Paul,
go go through this with me and tell

742
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:58.320
me about that because over time,
like I said, usually in a case

743
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:00.599
of murder, and this is a
murder case its core, it's a couple

744
00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:05.880
of murder cases at their course.
And we didn't even touch on Jack Ruby

745
00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:07.840
and all that, not at all. But anyway, and I love that

746
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.880
because that's at the very end of
the opening conversation in the book. Well,

747
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:15.360
what about Jack Ruby du du dah? This is where you know,

748
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:19.599
this is where my mind got This
is where my mind started to fly by

749
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.199
the way as a kid is how
is it that you kill a guy in

750
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:27.480
police custody and it wasn't the cops
who killed him, or it wasn't some

751
00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:30.000
prisoner in a cell next to him
that killed him. Oh No, something

752
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:35.079
is very wrong here. And I
was nine, But Paul, forget about

753
00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.119
me. What about this though?
The fact that you know, we've got

754
00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:43.519
to boil this back down because the
expansive universe of takes on. This could

755
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:46.960
go on and on forever, and
it seems to keep expanding like the universe

756
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:51.840
itself, instead of contracting like any
other case would. What do you think

757
00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:55.119
about that, pot, Yeah,
no, that's a great point. First

758
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:02.480
of all, the last chapter I
think explains why it's still complicated. It's

759
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:07.840
called, you know, six years
of obstruction of justice, and it chose

760
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:20.199
investigation by investigation how you know the
investigations were derailed. Now in the case

761
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.360
of the Warrant Commission, I think
it had to do right away with giving

762
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:29.519
instructions on going the Loane Nut route. You know, people who are familiar

763
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:37.800
with the cast and back memo or
the way LBJ got Chief Foreign to involve

764
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:43.800
himself. And by the way this
was brought up by the Church Committee and

765
00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:52.400
the HSEA is that the investigation into
a conspiracy was and they say that was

766
00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:57.559
deficient. Now, if you keep
going, you go to Garrison, right,

767
00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:02.760
Garrison, how many times do you
get the Attorney General of the United

768
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:13.719
States right involving himself in a state
a state legal case. He did,

769
01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:17.559
and he started saying things like,
well, we investigated John King found he

770
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:22.960
was clean, and that that that
brought the press say, well, why

771
01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:27.679
did you have to investigate a guy
uh in the first place? You know,

772
01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:31.199
But Tann and Bomb says they formed
something I think it was called the

773
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:36.960
Garrison group or the get Garrison group, and it's clear that they you know,

774
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:43.639
they bugged his office and they got
some people like Sheridan and Hayes,

775
01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:53.280
Ainsworth and others too to completely derail
that that that inquiry, and they threatened

776
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:58.079
his witnesses. And Tann and Bomb's
on the record for saying that. Then

777
01:00:58.119 --> 01:01:06.000
you go to the Church Committee.
Sorry, the the Rockefeller Commission, the

778
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:09.280
Church Committee, and through our book, you know, in that chapter we

779
01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:15.519
show how things happen, like the
HSCA, when did they kick out sorry,

780
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:22.480
when did they kick out Sprague and
tanambob Ah? When they started investigating

781
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:27.519
David Athlete Phillips, who was a
person of interest with the CIA, and

782
01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:30.239
they start, you know, they
start saying, this guy is lying,

783
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:37.159
he's not telling the truth. All
the people that were trying to portray Oswald

784
01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:43.599
as a Castro agent, they're all
his contacts, and they were all,

785
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:46.920
you know, false flags. And
then you go on to uh, you

786
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:53.039
know, all the way to the
ar RB ARB what happens there the Secret

787
01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:59.960
Service? Tim Samilak of the ARB
says, well, the Secret Service destroyed

788
01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:07.840
all the files on Kennedy's travels in
nineteen sixty three. They didn't want people

789
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:15.320
to know about prior plots and you
know, other information that preceded the assassination.

790
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:22.360
And they also saw that the Office
of Naval Intelligence, I mean,

791
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:29.199
they put this poor lady who was
Liaison Terry Pike, they completely ended her

792
01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:34.760
career because she was cooperating with the
ARB. And then finally, what happens

793
01:02:34.840 --> 01:02:39.639
in twenty seventeen. You have both
Trump and Biden later, you know,

794
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:45.920
breaking the law by not be classifying. So we have something there. So

795
01:02:46.159 --> 01:02:53.199
to your question is why is everything
more confused or still confused? It's because

796
01:02:53.239 --> 01:03:01.400
of the obfuscation. Now, I
think what we do in choke holds is

797
01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:07.519
we try and get rid of the
you know, the backyard photos is one

798
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:14.519
example all the debatable stuff, and
say, hey, look, if we

799
01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:19.039
have to present a case go to
a jury, let's make it simple for

800
01:03:19.119 --> 01:03:23.960
the jury. Let's show that Oswald
was impersonated. Let's show that Jack Ruby

801
01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:29.760
was not on a mission, Okay, that his job was to gag the

802
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:37.440
number one witness. Let's show that
the experts, the insiders okay, agree

803
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:45.360
with us. Let's show that Oswald
being on the sixth floor there's more than

804
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:52.079
a case for reasonable doubt. Let's
show that Oswald had intelligence connections. You

805
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:59.000
know, what's the twenty four year
old high school dropout doing meeting people like

806
01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:03.880
Ed David Ferry, George de Mornshield. You know, we have like seventy

807
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:12.880
instances of touch points he has with
intelligence assets, and thirty five of them

808
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:17.719
are definite, but seventy are plausible
or over seventy. Let's you know,

809
01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:21.719
let's go back to the single bullet
theory. I know people are sick of

810
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:27.239
hearing about it, but the single
bullet theory is so ridiculous when you think

811
01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:30.880
of it. And let's go back
to the medical and so that's what we

812
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:34.800
do. We identify ten chocals.
Now, what we don't do, Chuck,

813
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:41.559
in this book is we don't even
go into one inch in the direction

814
01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:46.280
of saying, here's what we think
happened. That will be face through,

815
01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:51.159
okay, face through there. Like
if we have a second project, we'll

816
01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:56.480
say, look, you attack this
book. You could tell us where we're

817
01:04:56.519 --> 01:05:00.960
wrong, right, tell us we're
wrong, because the way it was written

818
01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:08.320
is to prove us wrong. You
can't just contradict one choke cold. You

819
01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:15.280
have to contradict or prove all tanti
goals wrong. I think you'll agree that

820
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.119
if Oswald was impersonated, there's a
problem. If Oswall wasn't on the sixth

821
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:24.519
floor, there's a problem. If
Ruby, you know, I mean,

822
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:30.239
the HSCA concludes that he received assistance
to get to the basement, and they

823
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:35.719
conclude that, hey, you know
what, he wasn't just a nightclub operator.

824
01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:41.719
This guy did have Matthea ties,
and they go into details on some

825
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:44.880
of them. A guy called Dolan, how he went to mexican A,

826
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:51.639
Mexico, Cuba to meet trafficante,
all the phone calls he received before the

827
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:57.280
you know, the assassination. I
mean, I think that chapter is pretty

828
01:05:57.280 --> 01:06:01.679
eloquent in itself. And you know, just to finalize on that, think

829
01:06:01.719 --> 01:06:08.920
of this. You have the worst
bloody security when Kennedy gets killed, followed

830
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:14.079
by the worst bloody security when the
number one witness, Oswald gets killed.

831
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:17.119
I mean, yeah, of course
you're going to be suspicious about that.

832
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:21.880
Well, you know, we're also
not supposed to be suspicious. In recent

833
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:26.440
years, we also learned that,
you know, among the destruction and removal

834
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:32.519
of documentation, our Defense Intelligence Agency, the DA destroyed the entirety of its

835
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:40.039
Kennedy assassination related files. You know, when you see things like that,

836
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:44.679
that to me indicates a problem.
The Defense Intelligence Agency couldn't hang on to

837
01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:48.440
its stuff. Really. You know, we have the various instances of the

838
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:51.519
FBI and everything else, and we
know about that, whether it's hosty or

839
01:06:51.559 --> 01:06:57.039
something else, it's all over the
place. What actually happened to Jaegar Hoover's

840
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:00.440
files, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean wholesale destruction by the

841
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:05.000
DIA. Not a word really goes
out about it, does it. You

842
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:09.320
know, this isn't suspicious at all. And I love how you point out

843
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:15.159
the Trump and Biden both colluding together
to make sure and now Biden is,

844
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:19.079
you know, acquiescing just a bit
giving in a bit, but after lawsuits

845
01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:25.079
and things like that. Anyway,
great stuff, though, Matt, How

846
01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:29.760
should we finally look at all of
this though, the expanding universe versus the

847
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:32.800
way this would normally come together.
Maybe I'm crazy about this and I have

848
01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:36.000
a weird way of looking at it, but it does seem that way that

849
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:44.039
we're faced with something that continues to
expand exponentially endlessly, and really it should

850
01:07:44.079 --> 01:07:46.599
be a universe that's shrinking by Now
what are your thoughts on that? And

851
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:51.639
you know your your final thoughts I
guess for tonight. Yeah, thanks,

852
01:07:51.719 --> 01:07:56.599
Chuck. I mean, in terms
of the experience, I hear what you're

853
01:07:56.599 --> 01:08:00.360
saying, because it seems like there's
always more and more stuff. But it

854
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:03.519
also seems to me, like,
like I would, my perspectives may be

855
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:09.719
a little bit different and instead of
describing it as an expanding universe, I

856
01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:14.480
would say it's kind of, you
know, shedding light on areas that we

857
01:08:14.519 --> 01:08:18.920
didn't know about. Or another analogy
would be just filling in the missing puzzle

858
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:24.880
pieces. Right. So where it
becomes a challenge is if you're like,

859
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:29.159
oh, this is actually garbage,
this is a red herring, this doesn't

860
01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:31.720
belong in the puzzle at all.
Right. But if that's the case,

861
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:36.520
then you know, then it shouldn't
fit. The challenge becomes when it fits

862
01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:40.640
but it's wrong, right, And
that's that's the only way I'm getting down

863
01:08:40.680 --> 01:08:44.640
the metaphor thing. But but I
think what we what we can do is

864
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:47.319
we try to put together all the
stuff that's out there. I mean,

865
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:50.439
that's you know, it's what everybody
does tries to do. That's what I'm

866
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:56.439
trying to do, like methodically in
the podcast, just kind of put put

867
01:08:56.520 --> 01:09:00.159
together what's out there and and see
kind of what you can prove in terms

868
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:04.840
of you know, who did it
if it's not Oswald, and and what

869
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:09.199
are Oswald's motives? Like what is
he up to? And and you know,

870
01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:13.199
say it without speculation. So I'm
sure like this season I'll get into

871
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:18.560
the George Jonides stuff and all that, which is fascinating and uh and yeah,

872
01:09:18.760 --> 01:09:24.680
I mean I think the more we
can get regular people to understand that

873
01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:30.239
that likely something happened, and once
we can figure out what happened and who

874
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:35.159
the culprit is, I would love
to see like a you know, congressional

875
01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:40.880
hearings Once again. It's just the
question of like, let's say it's the

876
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:46.159
worst case scenario and it was the
CIA, Like they're probably not going to

877
01:09:46.399 --> 01:09:51.520
just be cool and give up power
and be like sorry, are bad,

878
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:56.520
like you know what I mean.
So so I just don't that That's why

879
01:09:56.520 --> 01:10:00.600
I like, you know, a
guy that's a fan of the I saw

880
01:10:00.680 --> 01:10:05.840
my my my personal Twitter and where
I'm just negative on all all political candidates.

881
01:10:06.439 --> 01:10:09.760
Uh so, so I'm just kind
of like, look, man,

882
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:15.640
like you know, doesn't really it
doesn't really matter, does it if president's

883
01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:19.720
not even in charge, like you
know, And so you can become a

884
01:10:19.800 --> 01:10:24.800
nihilist like me, or you can
kind of have optimism and go, hey,

885
01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:30.439
maybe if we can get everybody to
pay attention and and care about it,

886
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.680
then we can sort of get a
grassroots thing going. But I don't

887
01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:38.800
know, sometimes it seems like the
media is getting more receptive to it.

888
01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:42.520
You look at the Paul Landers stuff, which I don't if you listen to

889
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:46.560
my podcast on it, I don't
actually find mister Landis to be credible,

890
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:51.520
although I do find it to be
a nice man. So so, so

891
01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:55.520
anyway, the point is that,
and then you know the who is the

892
01:10:55.600 --> 01:11:00.920
JFK who killed JFK? Rob Brinder
thing sold out Brian who's like pretty mainstream,

893
01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:04.840
is like going pretty hard on the
conspiracy side of things. And then

894
01:11:04.840 --> 01:11:09.239
you got JFK with the Doctor Saw, which is a documentary on paramount plus

895
01:11:09.239 --> 01:11:14.560
that I'm in hey uh, and
that one, that one's you know,

896
01:11:14.840 --> 01:11:17.399
it basically lands on like look,
it's overwhelming. All these doctors saw a

897
01:11:17.399 --> 01:11:21.439
big hole in the right rear of
Kennedy's head that doesn't appear on the autopsy.

898
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:27.359
So so to you know, Peter
Baker at the New York Times wrote

899
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:30.960
some stuff about Ruben Fron uh this
year, which I don't know if you

900
01:11:31.479 --> 01:11:34.920
do, you know, do you
know the whole ruben Fron thing, not

901
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:39.439
by that name. I probably know
what the what the go go ahead and

902
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:42.359
explain it just super quick. I
know what we're trying to get out here.

903
01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:46.279
But this is the last example of
of how the news is covering things

904
01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:49.359
a little bit more favorably. Now. Peter Baker, reporter of the New

905
01:11:49.439 --> 01:11:57.119
York Times, wrote about Ruben Fron
Uh, the c I A agent.

906
01:11:57.520 --> 01:12:01.439
It was his job to read Oswalt's
mail. He was the guy reading all

907
01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:04.920
of Oswalt's Oh yeah, yeah,
okay, go ahead, and they and

908
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:15.039
basically the article is about how he
uh they declassified his name. And the

909
01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:19.000
same guy that was reading Oswalt's male
is also the guy that was present in

910
01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:27.000
the in the room when Marina Oswald
every time she testified, Right, okay,

911
01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:29.920
I didn't know that, by the
way, Yeah, no, there's

912
01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:31.439
all kinds of weird saying. You
know, the Joe and Edes case where

913
01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:34.960
they sent the liaison that was supposed
to not be involved with anything, is

914
01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:40.720
not the only time that big shock. They they sent somebody who has already

915
01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:45.079
read in on the situation to go
deal with something. It happens all the

916
01:12:45.119 --> 01:12:46.800
time, which I find amazing.
Which, by the way, Matt,

917
01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:49.359
here's a weird thing. And I
want to address this to you just as

918
01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:56.199
a final thing, because I'm really
amazed at your ability to uh to do

919
01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:00.119
certain things in certain ways. Your
podcast came off to me as very objective,

920
01:13:00.239 --> 01:13:04.640
like you didn't have a horse in
the race at all at first.

921
01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:08.319
And I told you that when when
I brought you on to begin with right

922
01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:12.880
over the podcast, and I love
that you came in like I'm not here

923
01:13:12.880 --> 01:13:17.279
to advocate for anything, I'm just
gonna present what is. And I really

924
01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:21.600
saw that as like, oh wow, this guy might be fully undecided because

925
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:28.560
I was unaware of other things you
were doing, and I see you in

926
01:13:28.560 --> 01:13:32.920
that special and I said, Okay, this is not mister objective. I'm

927
01:13:32.960 --> 01:13:39.479
undecided. Couldn't be, because otherwise
you'd be making different points here. And

928
01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:44.479
I observe all the streaming services have
come up with something pretty much for JFK

929
01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:48.039
this year, either that or they
brought things back around. Every cable news

930
01:13:48.079 --> 01:13:55.800
network did something as usual, but
also every one of the streaming services pretty

931
01:13:55.880 --> 01:14:00.640
much participated. Whether it was the
doctors or it was that ridiculously terrible thing

932
01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:06.800
on Amazon, or it was you
know, National Geographic, right, you

933
01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:12.720
know, all these different ones participated
in it. And it's interesting how it

934
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.279
got out there. The evolution of
the way the media has covered its fascinating

935
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:18.800
it's one of the things that's one
of my main interests actually, you know,

936
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:24.520
going from the Data News went live
to now, there is a remarkable

937
01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:30.239
story to be told there regarding exactly
how that's affected public opinion. I would

938
01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:33.479
like to see passion again, but
we have seen grassroots stuff in the past,

939
01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:36.800
Pat, we have seen it before. Otherwise there would have been no

940
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:43.720
HSCA. Otherwise there would have been
no RRB. Otherwise, indeed, because

941
01:14:43.720 --> 01:14:47.079
of the strangeness of the situation,
they might have not been forced into even

942
01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:53.000
creating the Warren Commission. So it
does seem to me like public pressure is

943
01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:59.600
important and does create other chokeholds here
when it comes to trying to force the

944
01:14:59.640 --> 01:15:04.319
official to answer some questions. But
then they always do a dance and it

945
01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:09.560
always becomes something else, and that's
the major problem here in my mind.

946
01:15:10.680 --> 01:15:13.920
But anyway, I advise you guys
to take it and try and boil it

947
01:15:13.960 --> 01:15:16.800
back down the ten choke holds like
Paul was talking about here. Read the

948
01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:20.439
book. I'm going to give you
a link with the podcast here and I'll

949
01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:23.760
try and drop it in the room
before I'm done with the live show,

950
01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:28.880
but it'll definitely be with the show
notes plus a link to Matt's podcast Solving

951
01:15:28.960 --> 01:15:32.439
jfk. Okay and Paul, you
know, I don't know if I should

952
01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:35.279
give links to other stuff. If
you want give me a couple of links.

953
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:39.479
I would definitely like people to read
some of the things that Paul has

954
01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:45.840
written, because it's rather thought provoking, well considered, and you know what,

955
01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:50.199
we all have to use whatever it
is that is our you know,

956
01:15:50.239 --> 01:15:54.800
in our quiver, so to speak, in our personal quiver if we care

957
01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:59.520
about this, to push forward the
idea that this must get re engaged with

958
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:02.760
not only officials, but must continue
to be engaged with by the general public.

959
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:04.840
Go ahead. I'm sorry I was
holding you back from saying no,

960
01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:10.279
no, Chuck. First of all, I don't have a podcast, but

961
01:16:10.439 --> 01:16:16.359
that's okay. I want to congratulate
both of you on your podcasts and your

962
01:16:16.359 --> 01:16:23.960
shows for your critical thinking because you
know, you don't you know, you're

963
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:29.960
you're you're willing to you don't jump
on every element of proof or any little

964
01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:34.920
thing that's out there. Uh,
And I think I think that's prudent and

965
01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:41.720
it's it's smart. Okay, And
congratulations because I find both of you are

966
01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:48.079
very objective in your approach concerning your
your audience. If you want to know

967
01:16:48.159 --> 01:16:51.840
more about the book or want to
know how to purchase it, we have

968
01:16:51.880 --> 01:16:59.920
a website called JFK Chocols dot com. You can go on it, and

969
01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:04.520
if you go on it, you'll
be able to find our Facebook page.

970
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:12.359
I included in just giving an example
in our Facebook page some pictures from Lancer

971
01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:18.520
and pictures from Cyril Wackt and all
sorts of links to to the shows that

972
01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:24.840
we've been on and interviews. I
just want to again thank you too for

973
01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:28.800
the great work you've done. I've
listened to both of your shows and it's

974
01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:35.600
very professional, and I have more
confidence in you as a source on this

975
01:17:36.359 --> 01:17:45.319
because you know, you don't just
take any conspiracy theorists out there and you

976
01:17:45.359 --> 01:17:51.359
know and accept what they say.
You you'll you'll and you'll consider the oppose

977
01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:56.880
the opponent's point of view. So
anyway, I'm happy to be on your

978
01:17:56.880 --> 01:18:00.039
show and thank you so much.
Appreciate it. Yeah, I put the

979
01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:03.960
JFK Choke Holds website in the Chatroomaitochelli
dot com. That'll also be included in

980
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:09.079
the show notes. Yet it is
JFK Choke Holds All one word dot com

981
01:18:09.560 --> 01:18:13.199
that is the home site for the
book. Facebook, yeah, you can

982
01:18:13.239 --> 01:18:15.640
go and explore it there too.
I'm not always a proponent of Facebook because

983
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:20.800
they're annoying the crap out of me. But now everything I post on Facebook

984
01:18:20.840 --> 01:18:25.800
is spam according to them. But
that's a personal issue. By the way,

985
01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:28.600
go and take a look at it, at this stuff anywhere. And

986
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:31.479
again I'll give you all the authors. But we had two of them tonight,

987
01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:36.520
and that is you know, we
had Paul on here, Paul Blow

988
01:18:36.720 --> 01:18:41.359
and of course Matt Crumpton. Not
only that, but we will give you

989
01:18:41.359 --> 01:18:45.399
the link to the podcast that Matt
does. Indeed, it is fascinating and

990
01:18:45.479 --> 01:18:49.199
I would advise people go listen to
it because it's different, let's just begin

991
01:18:49.279 --> 01:18:55.000
there, and very thoughtful, as
Paul said. But also James Diginio.

992
01:18:55.520 --> 01:18:58.640
And there's two other authors here,
I guess, Andrew Lear and Mark I

993
01:18:58.640 --> 01:19:02.239
don't even want to attempt to say
his name because too many consonants. There

994
01:19:02.199 --> 01:19:05.399
were too many vowels in a row. Screws me up. But Adam and

995
01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:12.520
Check, I guess would be it. And uh Andrew Eyler. See there

996
01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:15.800
we go. Too many valels,
too many, too many letters at all,

997
01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:18.279
I'm a simple guy. I guess
sorry, Matt, go ahead,

998
01:19:19.159 --> 01:19:25.439
Yeah, just just uh just one
closing point you're talking about, uh,

999
01:19:25.640 --> 01:19:28.760
you know, listening to the podcast
early and the perception that I was kind

1000
01:19:28.760 --> 01:19:32.000
of down the middle. I you
know, like I kind of was down

1001
01:19:32.079 --> 01:19:38.159
the middle. But the problem is, excuse me, once, once you

1002
01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:42.920
learn something, you can't unkno it, you know what I mean, And

1003
01:19:42.720 --> 01:19:45.920
and and the other thing is like, obviously I've done the research enough to

1004
01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:47.960
have a whole season, so I
kind of know where it's going. But

1005
01:19:48.319 --> 01:19:53.960
my stance is once I discover,
once I conclude on the podcast, like

1006
01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:57.439
at the end of season one,
I had conclusions like once I conclude that

1007
01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:01.880
there was a front shooter based on
medical evidence, once I conclude that Oswald's

1008
01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:06.880
not in place on the sixth floor, then like, that's that's got me

1009
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:12.199
down the path of you know,
people you know of basically you know,

1010
01:20:12.319 --> 01:20:15.439
choosing a side for lack of a
better term. But I'm I am.

1011
01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:23.000
I do remain committed to vetting every
fact and so for example, just very

1012
01:20:23.079 --> 01:20:27.399
quickly, right now, the young
Oswalt stuff, it's here's what I'm looking

1013
01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:30.640
at. I'm looking at Warren report, I'm looking at Posner and Bugliosi,

1014
01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:34.119
and I'm looking at Harvey and Lee. A little bit of Destiny Betrayed,

1015
01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:41.159
but a lot of Harvey and Lee. And and then I'm searching for articles

1016
01:20:41.319 --> 01:20:44.880
that are critical of Harvey and Lee. Right, so I'm gonna have a

1017
01:20:44.920 --> 01:20:48.119
whole episode that pulls it all together, and then and then kind of criticizes

1018
01:20:48.159 --> 01:20:53.279
it like that. So so,
but the point is, I am still

1019
01:20:53.319 --> 01:20:58.359
objective about the ultimate case. But
but there are some things, you know,

1020
01:20:58.439 --> 01:21:03.640
like the medical evidence of particular that
that I think once you see you

1021
01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:09.720
can't pretend that you know there wasn't
a front tutor. Once you see that,

1022
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:13.039
you know, well, see,
as a teenager, I wanted an

1023
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:15.840
answer, and quite honestly, I
started out on the side of you ready

1024
01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:20.600
for this. I think these conspiracy
people are probably just making things out of

1025
01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:25.720
nothing. That's what I thought as
a teenager. And then you know what

1026
01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:29.960
happened. I did research and actually
got my hands on the documents and looked

1027
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:33.079
at actually what happened. And yeah, once you learn something, you can't

1028
01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:38.560
unlearn it. So guess what,
I could no longer conclude that you know

1029
01:21:38.680 --> 01:21:43.239
the government was telling the truth.
The official conclusion would make sense. I

1030
01:21:43.239 --> 01:21:47.119
couldn't do it anymore because the evidence
didn't support it. It was that simple,

1031
01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:50.279
and that's how I came to it, naturally, it wasn't I didn't

1032
01:21:50.279 --> 01:21:56.279
start out on the conspiracy side,
even to be honest with you. So

1033
01:21:57.960 --> 01:22:00.840
yeah, and I but I love
that about your podcast. It's really great

1034
01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:04.880
in that way. H yeah,
go ahead, No, that's it.

1035
01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:11.800
Thank you, and thanks for having
us on, and UH appreciate appreciate your

1036
01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:15.920
show as well, and we'll continue
to listen to you man, good stuff,

1037
01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:18.800
and I appreciate you guys, and
I hope to have both of you

1038
01:22:18.880 --> 01:22:24.479
back on again because there's gonna be
another season of JFK Uh Solved. But

1039
01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:29.039
also I know we're gonna hear from
Paul again, so please, I definitely

1040
01:22:29.079 --> 01:22:31.880
want to make sure that you guys
can come back anytime anytime. In the

1041
01:22:31.920 --> 01:22:36.920
meantime, listeners go to JFK chokeholds
dot com. It's all one word together

1042
01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:42.239
than dot com, so JFK choke
holds dot com verbally. Like I said,

1043
01:22:42.479 --> 01:22:45.359
the links will be in with the
show notes. So for now,

1044
01:22:45.520 --> 01:23:47.840
I am merely O'Kelly and all of
you mh roll stream Window, Dott Verrible

1045
01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:57.560
Silver, the stock market, roll
Stream, Window dot dot Perhaps you're invested

1046
01:23:57.640 --> 01:24:00.760
deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep
enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started.

1047
01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:05.079
Wall Street, Windows, do com, doos, don com. Michael

1048
01:24:05.119 --> 01:24:11.039
Swanson, the brilliant author of the
War State, understood these trends professionally for

1049
01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:15.840
many years, and now he gives
you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall

1050
01:24:15.960 --> 01:24:21.800
Street Stream though Dott go there,
now go there, now go there now

1051
01:24:23.079 --> 01:24:27.359
o Chili dot com. Nuclear holocaust. You know what ur ennium is right?

1052
01:24:27.720 --> 01:24:30.760
Speak of nuclear weapons and other things
like lots of you know what your

1053
01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:35.359
enium is right? Bad things things
are done with uranium, letting some bad

1054
01:24:35.479 --> 01:24:40.359
things. Nuclear holocaust. You know
what your enium is right? I've been

1055
01:24:40.399 --> 01:24:44.920
agree Nuclear Holocaust, Nuclear holocaust.
You know what your ennium is right.

1056
01:24:45.199 --> 01:24:48.640
Let's look from nuclear weapons and other
things like let's say you know what uranium

1057
01:24:48.760 --> 01:24:54.399
is right? The things things are
done with uranium leutting some bad things,

1058
01:24:54.720 --> 01:25:01.159
Nuclear Holocaust, Nuclear Holaday, Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust, nuclear

1059
01:25:01.199 --> 01:26:03.600
Holoshelle dot Com Radio network in Denial. Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks

1060
01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:10.800
by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became
a staple of US covert operations and are

1061
01:26:10.840 --> 01:26:15.560
still happening today. Larryhancock's book In
Denial rips the cover off many of them,

1062
01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:19.039
using new files. It exposes things
about the Bay of Pigs that no

1063
01:26:19.079 --> 01:26:24.239
one has ever written about before.
It shows why it really failed and why

1064
01:26:24.279 --> 01:26:28.399
the United States did not earn from
it. It also shows why other countries

1065
01:26:28.439 --> 01:26:32.279
today are doing secret operations with more
success. This is the book that puts

1066
01:26:32.279 --> 01:26:38.840
what some want to deny into the
light. In Denial, secret wars with

1067
01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:45.840
air strikes and tanks Larryhncock. For
more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock

1068
01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:49.319
dot com. Pick up your copy
of In Denial at Amazon dot com in

1069
01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:55.720
digital or physical. Ahead call it
the DAFA as fascination. Right, Well,

1070
01:26:55.760 --> 01:26:59.159
what do you want to know?
Judy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriend p

1071
01:26:59.239 --> 01:27:02.039
knew Ruby and the answer weapons Really? I imagine I could claim I have

1072
01:27:02.119 --> 01:27:06.000
four wheels. It doesn't make me
a wagon, but okay, wal Bid

1073
01:27:06.199 --> 01:27:10.520
and trying to prevent the murder of
John Kennedy Come on now has a real

1074
01:27:10.600 --> 01:27:15.319
effort on the DAFA assassination claims.
Go to Amazon dot com, enter Judith

1075
01:27:15.520 --> 01:27:19.520
Baker in her own words, you'll
get the results for a digital copy of

1076
01:27:19.560 --> 01:27:25.239
a book where Walt Brown utilizes her
own words and the known evidence in the

1077
01:27:25.239 --> 01:27:30.399
case to get at well a different
perspective. Let's say you can get Judith

1078
01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:34.039
Very Baker in her own words from
the author himself, signed if you request

1079
01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:40.880
it by contacting doctor Brown at k
I A s JFK at aol dot com.

1080
01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:45.840
It's a fun book and it actually
dissects the many, many fantastic claims

1081
01:27:45.119 --> 01:27:48.960
Judith Very Baker in her own words. Thank you for all the great information.