1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,679 It is one of the most copied works of literature for effectively a thousand years. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,279 So it's a book that essentially, it's put it this way, that 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,480 anyone who could read for the better part of a thousand years in the West 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:19,879 was reading Boethius. It's unbelievably influential, and that with his other translations make 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,359 their way into the Middle Ages. And so the metaphor I like to use, 6 00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:27,239 it's like, you know, the flowers have died. We heard Ian 7 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:30,920 Herzieli recently say the West is a cut flower. It's like the flowers have 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:36,000 died. But these books are seeds. These books are seeds of the ideas, 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,000 and it's as if he cast them forward into the future so that hundreds 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,719 of years after his death those seeds would grow again into you might say, 11 00:00:45,719 --> 00:01:03,520 the beautiful guarden of Western medieval culture. This is Jonathan Peshel, Welcome to 12 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:18,359 the symbolic world. So everyone, it is a pleasure to finally have Stephen 13 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,519 Blackwood on my channel. As you know, Stephen Stephen is the president and 14 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:27,239 founder of Ralston College. He was also one of my It was my neighbor 15 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,760 at the Exodus Seminar, you know, sitting next to me bringing us back 16 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:37,120 to this story, you know, expressing his wisdom with so much tact. 17 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,920 You know, he's become a friend and someone that I respect very much, 18 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:44,439 and so I'm happy to have him on. And we're going to talk about 19 00:01:45,239 --> 00:01:49,239 Boethius. We're going to enter into Boethius's Consolation of philosophy. Stephen wrote a 20 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:56,319 wonderful book called The Consolation of Boetius as Poetic Liturgy, And I mean I 21 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,439 read this, I was amazed at some of the things he was bringing up. 22 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:01,799 You know, I'm not someone who's that good at poetry, but I 23 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,200 could just see when I was reading his text that he was so close to 24 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:07,719 the way I see the world, to the things that I care about, 25 00:02:07,759 --> 00:02:12,199 and so I'm excited for him to be able to expound that for us today. 26 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,439 So Stephen, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Jonathan. 27 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,719 Yeah, so tell miss a start off, like, what it is 28 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,159 that attracted you first of all to Boethius's text? Maybe how people most people 29 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:28,680 will know Boethius, but maybe you know, give a brief introduction of who 30 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:30,680 he is, what it is that was going on around him, and why 31 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:37,919 he wrote his consolation. Well I think that, well, he's been a 32 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:43,560 big inspiration for me for many years. And you know, just in a 33 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,639 really quick sketch, we're talking about the he's born in the late fifth century 34 00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:51,960 AD, so sort of right around the follow Rome in the four seventy five 35 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,639 or so, and he lives for about fifty years, and he was born 36 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,400 into a wealthy should I actually adopted into a wealthy sort of very patrician family. 37 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,400 And he gets the best education you can get, probably in Athens or 38 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:14,039 Alexandria. He learns Greek, he does all of the studies, all of 39 00:03:14,039 --> 00:03:17,879 the forms of knowledge that we were important, you know, music and mathematics, 40 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,280 astronomy, you know, rhetoric, logic, all of those, all 41 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:27,680 of those things, philosophy, and he rises to the very sort of very 42 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,439 highest heights of the of the Roman Empire. This is after the fall of 43 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,599 Rome, now right, so so rather than an emperor, there's a kind 44 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:38,599 of foreign king theodoric. But it's it's it's it's kind of as if you 45 00:03:38,639 --> 00:03:43,960 had, you know, one of our modern states. Everything was functioning except 46 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,520 a foreign king had come in over the top. And so it's actually much 47 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,280 more coherent than people might might think. So he rises to the very you 48 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:53,319 know the Senate is still there, and and so on. He becomes the 49 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:59,360 master of offices, the Mcguistrokiorum. He becomes a consul, and he says, 50 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,400 the happiest day of his his his his life, is that his is 51 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,680 the day his two sons both become consuls. And the reason I share this 52 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:11,319 is because he's at the very sort of tip top of education, of political 53 00:04:11,919 --> 00:04:17,120 influence, of wealth, of of of sophistication. He's a he's a he's 54 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,519 a poet, he's a mathematician, he's an inventor. He's he's really just 55 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,319 at the very top of his game. And and and what what what wes 56 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,680 uh sees is that Rome, which had for so long relied upon you might 57 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,879 say, Greek intellectual infrastructure. Uh. And this is this is not a 58 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:40,399 wild claim. I mean, the all of the Romans, the educated Romans, 59 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:44,120 were themselves speaking Greek for hundreds of years, and being educated in Greece 60 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,639 and actually forging their their their literature according to Greek models and the architecture and 61 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,560 all of that. They unders they understood this themselves, very very self consciously. 62 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:58,920 But Greek is being lost and and and so Beethius sets himself the task 63 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,519 to translate all of these kind of seminal texts of Greek into Latin Latinized. 64 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:11,720 This this superstructure of of of of wisdom, and uh he translates works in 65 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:17,120 mathematics and logic and and and music and so on. And these are effectively 66 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,560 kind of latinizations, you know, making available, you know, pretty much 67 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:28,199 someone else's work into a form. It's a translation or a making available in 68 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:33,240 a new form, but largely to translation. And then does absolute disaster strikes. 69 00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:41,800 He is accused of treason and thrown in prison, and a year later, 70 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,800 uh, he is according to contemporary the contemporary accounts we have, he's 71 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:55,759 halted a prison and uh, brutally tortured and executed. And uh, that's 72 00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:59,240 the end of Boethius. That's the end of this man who had hoped, 73 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:01,560 let's say, to had the dream in some sense that you can say, 74 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:08,079 the dream of restoring the intellectual foundations of his of his beloved sort of you 75 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:15,399 know, city, and of all of Rome. It ends in in the 76 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:18,519 worst sort of in a sense death you can you can imagine, except, 77 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:24,800 of course, that's not the end of Boethius. While he is in prison, 78 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:30,759 he writes a book that is not contradictory with everything he's written, but 79 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,639 at the same time totally different. These texts on you know, the translation 80 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,079 of Nicolemichus and so on. They're very dry. I mean, you know, 81 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,879 you should read them if you're interested, but they're very hard to get 82 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,519 through. They're very dry. They're very logic chopping. They're all about ratios 83 00:06:44,519 --> 00:06:46,439 and the music and so on. That was that was an important text for 84 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:53,360 almost two thousand years. But you know, they're they're a slog let's put 85 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,600 it that way. And and in prison, while he's in prison, he 86 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,240 writes one of the most astonishing world of literature that I think has ever ever 87 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:06,600 ever been written. And and and this it's like he puts in a certain 88 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:12,360 sense, he puts all of his fine tuned learning down and he goes right 89 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,199 to the heart of the question. But of course he's not putting it down. 90 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:18,680 He's putting it into a new form these years of study. And in 91 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:24,360 this and in this book, he uh, this is a work of consolation. 92 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,680 This is a book in which very raw, in which a woman who's 93 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,800 a personification of philosophy comes to comfort a man, a prisoner, a man 94 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,839 who's been bereft of it, taken away everything that he had on his his 95 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,839 wealth, his family, his position, his reputation, everything, He's got 96 00:07:39,879 --> 00:07:42,439 nothing left. And there he is in his princess. So it's you know, 97 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,360 Boethius played by himself, you might say, in this, in this 98 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,399 amazing literary drama. And and this, this, this woman named Philosophy comes 99 00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:55,800 to comfort him and to restore him to his inner self, possession, to 100 00:07:55,959 --> 00:08:00,560 his his his his knowledge, and possession of himself. And that's the you 101 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,279 know, we may do prehaps we'll have to talk a bit about the book. 102 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:11,199 But but in terms of the biography, what's amazing is that, uh, 103 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,720 you know, this book that is in a way so different from his 104 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:20,120 other works, just the literary power that the gripping character of this I I 105 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,839 I say that, uh, this is this is one of those books that 106 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:30,160 you can give to someone who's in an enormously difficult situation, whether it's you 107 00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:35,360 know, cancer or or terminal disease, or or loss or or or or 108 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,320 some kind of form or pain or indecipherable thing in their lives. Uh. 109 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,399 And it and it speaks directly to that because that's where it starts. That's 110 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,320 the that's the problem this book is written about, and we don't we actually 111 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,120 don't know really how this book got out into circulation and somehow got out of 112 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,240 the prison. There's there's so far as I know, there's little to no 113 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,919 record of it for like two hundred years. So you here this this, 114 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:03,960 you know, this long arc. It's so important to remember these things, 115 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,879 you know, the long arc of of of time, of culture, of 116 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:13,080 civilization, of the soul. Here this man who I think had hoped in 117 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,240 his own lifetime that these works that he was translating would help to restore Rome. 118 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:20,120 He did not know Rome was really effectively over, you know, a 119 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:22,960 few decades after his death. It's you know, it's a kind of backwater 120 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,799 goes from a million inhabitants or so at it's at its height to essentially, 121 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:33,120 you know, thirty thousand. It's like a swampy backwater during the Carol Engine 122 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,240 into the Middle Ages. But what I want to leave, you leave this, 123 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,320 this moment of his biography with is this book somehow gets out and after 124 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,360 a couple of hundred years it really gets out, and it's it's translated in 125 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:54,519 English by King Alfred. We were talking about that earlier but in Latin it 126 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,080 is. It is one of the most copied works of literature for effectively a 127 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,120 thousand years. So it's a it's a book that essentially, it's put it 128 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,679 this way, that anyone who could read for the better part of a thousand 129 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,720 years in the West was reading Boethius. It's unbelievably influential, and that with 130 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,080 his other translations make their way into the Middle Ages. And so the metaphor 131 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,320 I like to use, it's like, you know, the flowers have died. 132 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,480 We heard Ian Herzieli recently say the West is a cut flower. It's 133 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,759 like the flowers have died. But these books are seeds. These books are 134 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:31,799 seeds of the ideas, and it's as if he cast them forward into the 135 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:37,080 future, so that hundreds of years after his death those seeds would grow again 136 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:43,559 into you might say, the beautiful guarden of Western medieval culture. And so 137 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,320 there's a sense of which Boethius though he thought, I think that well, 138 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:52,360 he had no doubt, hopes as we all do, that his work would 139 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,679 bear some fruit in his lifetime. He had a terrible death, and yet 140 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:03,120 in the long span of time, and perhaps you could say providence that which 141 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:09,360 he had given his life to bears enormous fruit hundreds of years after his death. 142 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,639 And so I've often thought about this that you know, from Boethius. 143 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,080 We see, it's not up to us what becomes of our work. It's 144 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,600 only up to us to do to undertake it as faithfully as we can. 145 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:26,080 Yeah, and I think you're some of the ideas that you brought about are 146 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:33,080 important to emphasize, which is that the Boethius's work, you know, became 147 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,360 a model for literature in the Middle Ages, became a model for poetry, 148 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:43,960 became a model you know, and did ultimately more to synthesize the ancient Greek 149 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,120 thinking and carry it forward. Then, like you said, his other kind 150 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,600 of copying of ancient texts, and so there's a strange innovation in the text 151 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:56,879 itself, but it is also a kind of gathering together in crisis. So 152 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,840 his personal crisis he is suffering, and the you know, the things that 153 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,600 he had to go through become like a microcosm of what is happening to the 154 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,919 West at that moment, and with all the barbarians coming in and this kind 155 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,399 of moment of uncertainty and chaos, and in this in that strange way, 156 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:20,360 like you said, the book itself becomes a little arc that carries all this 157 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,399 thinking in a very compressed form, with all its different meters and its different 158 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,879 approach to poetry into the flowering of the of the High Middle Ages, you 159 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,399 could say, and becomes a model for that. It's hard for people to 160 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:35,360 think because so many people think that the Middle Ages are just a dark period. 161 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:41,000 You know, they don't understand to what extent poetry and music and you 162 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:45,320 know, meter was important, especially in what we call the High Middle Ages 163 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,159 in the West, into the weird, weirdly too, into the world that 164 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:54,200 into the barbarian world that had taken over his Rome. Right, So the 165 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,879 influence of his work will make itself, will make itself known in France and 166 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,159 England, in all of these Barbarian lands that are now kind of reviving the 167 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:07,799 Roman, the Roman world. So it really is an astounding story of how, 168 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,720 of what of what he was able to do in his suffering. Yeah. 169 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:15,600 Yeah, And it's a very important to point you make about the way 170 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,759 he's gathering up the wisdom of the past. And you know, today we 171 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:22,440 sort of, you know, have this idea that you know, he's trying 172 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,960 and say something original, and and and and new. And you know for 173 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,440 boiethous, you know he was. I think you know he thought the highest 174 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,240 thing that you know, in a way, the highest and best would be 175 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,320 to to to to share the greatest uh uh, you might say, the 176 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,240 wisdom of the past in a way that could be heard and heard anew. 177 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,600 And so he he is writing as if he might say it's his work is 178 00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:52,960 synthesizing and bringing together without saying he's doing that. I'm saying he thinks, 179 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,879 oh here, I I've got all the answers right here. You know, 180 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,200 he's he's, he's But what he's actually doing is is take looking back to 181 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,240 Plato, into Aristotle, and to the Stoves and the neo Platonists and all 182 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:07,840 the poetic tradition to omer uh and uh. And indeed, I would argue 183 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:15,000 to the to to his experience of Christianity and uh, bringing all of this 184 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:18,600 up in a form that that he thinks is fundamental so it can speak to 185 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:24,399 his time. Interestingly, I mentioned Christianity. We know is the christian he 186 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,720 wrote text on on the Trinity and so on. There's no mention of Christianity, 187 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,799 or of Christ or anything like that in the consolation. It's a really 188 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:39,799 interesting, uh kind of question or challenging history for for many scholars. UH. 189 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:43,919 And my simply say that my sense of that is that what he's doing 190 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,320 is is sharing the wisdom as he understands it in a universal form. And 191 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:52,240 we can talk about, you know, what the logos is and what he 192 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,200 might have understood, uh, about the relationship between the let's call it the 193 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:07,480 Pagan and Christian traditions, of the old Pagan philosophical tradition and the Christian religion 194 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:11,159 is a very very interesting question. But fundamentally, he's putting things in a 195 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,799 language of universality. And that's one of the reasons I think he's such an 196 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:24,519 important voice today because amidst our fragments are alienated, sort of dysfunctional disagreements, 197 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,360 often very shallow, he offers, I think, a voice that goes right 198 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,240 to the heart of very fundamental human questions. Yeah, and I think the 199 00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:39,759 way that I also understand his work is something like the maintaining of a secular 200 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,960 space in within Christianity. That is, you know, and you can see 201 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,320 it again play in terms of microcosms, which is that he's expressing the continuation 202 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,279 of the Pagan world, the neo Platonic world, the Greek world, into 203 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:02,200 this burgeoning Christian world. He's expressing that as a possible you know, image 204 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,039 of what of what is good and what is what is in the future. 205 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:11,559 And then you could say that not surprisingly that his esthetic or his vision gets 206 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:17,240 taken up by the secular world in in the urgeon in Christian reality, which 207 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,799 is why the kings, you know, it's supposedly Queen Elizabeth also like loved 208 00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:26,360 her Boethius and King Alfred and these secular figures would look to Boethius because they 209 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,879 were playing in some ways a secular role within the Christian vision. They were 210 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,320 they were not directly related, you know, although they did go to church, 211 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,440 there were Christians, they were somewhat of a remove for that, somewhere 212 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:41,360 like a narthex of the church. And I think that that's one of the 213 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,200 powerful things about Christianity that people forget in our kind of post Puritan age, 214 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,639 which is that is the way that Christianity laid itself out as being both you 215 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:55,600 know, having the highest mystery in these theological texts and these mystical hymns, 216 00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:59,320 but then also being able to entertain, you know, the works of Soccer, 217 00:16:59,639 --> 00:17:02,559 the work of Aristotle, the works of Plato and the works of the 218 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:07,279 Greeks, and a vision of poetry, even preserving the dramatic text, preserving 219 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,359 the works of literature that were produced in the in the ancient world, as 220 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,119 a kind of you could say, narthex to Christianity, a place where we 221 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,119 can explore these ideas without explicitly saying always having a religious Uh. Well, 222 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,160 then there's just two quick points to add to that, And the first is 223 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:33,680 that you know, people today forget that the the Greeks thought there were entirely 224 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,000 rational you know, make say philosophical arguments. Uh. You know, they 225 00:17:38,079 --> 00:17:44,599 talk about the highest good or God, or about the practices that enable you 226 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,319 to approach or understand or come as close as you can to understanding those things. 227 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,279 Those are those are completely rational, philosophically derived principles. So it's not 228 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:55,440 as if you know you've got this, I don't know, some sort of 229 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,359 cold philosophy in the one hand, and then in the the other hand, 230 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:02,759 with these kind of simply irrational or mystical practices. I mean, it's the 231 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:04,640 most for the Greeks, it's the most rational thing in the world. You 232 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:11,400 might say to to to try to understand uh uh, that which you do 233 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,640 not understand, that which is beyond you, uh and to be adequate somehow 234 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,640 to that understanding. We can talk about intellectual humility, We could talk about 235 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,119 you know, so this this what I'm suggesting is that is that in in 236 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,039 in in the Consolation, for example, there comes a moment in the right, 237 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:27,920 in the middle of the book, in the middle of the argument where 238 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,960 philosophy system you know, you know the problem with with our thinking are kind 239 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,359 of rational thinking, that it divides things up, and you know, it 240 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,319 divides up that which is which we most seek, which is one, in 241 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,359 whole and unified, the highest good. It divides it up in such a 242 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:47,359 way that that that that it can't set, it can't satisfy precisely because it's 243 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,839 dividing it up. And we could talk about the implication with that argument. 244 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,160 But what what she says is is that, so what do we need to 245 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,759 do, like, what's the answer to that problem? That's a big problem, 246 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:56,680 and it's a problem we all face day by day, right, which 247 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,279 is that you know, the way in which all all of your efforts can 248 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,359 somehow divide up or be inadequate to the to the thing that you seek, 249 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:10,480 which is kind of a unified self possession and so uh and she says, 250 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:11,319 well, what do you think we should do? And he says, well, 251 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:15,400 we should seek the Father of all things. And so what you really 252 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,920 see in this fulcrum of the argument is that they're turning upward, you might 253 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:26,079 say, to that which is the source of rational understanding, but in a 254 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:33,119 unified form, and they're seeking they're seeking that source for help to bridge that 255 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,119 divide. And so all I want to say is that we talk about the 256 00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:40,640 the the religious element here. What I what I want to say is there 257 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,880 is a phill, there's a there's such a thing as a philosophical religion in 258 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,079 which you are you are, you are adopting habits and practices that you know 259 00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:51,119 are necessary. Doesn't take some add on, some big leap or anything like 260 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,240 that. It's this is like, this is a fundamental some you can do 261 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,000 on a fundamentally rational basis. And the other point of make it very quickly 262 00:19:56,039 --> 00:20:02,279 is that is that it's not It's also that the the inheritance of these uh 263 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,039 Christian, these these the Platonic and Aristilian, you know, the Neopotitanus and 264 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,400 so on, the Greek. The Greeks. Broadly speaking, it's not just 265 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,400 that they were kind of sort of useful in the background. They're absolutely vital 266 00:20:14,839 --> 00:20:18,640 to the whole history of Christian theology to understand itself. I mean, you 267 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:19,759 know, the Bible is written in you know, the New Testment's written in 268 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:22,519 Greek, the Creeds are written in Greek, and there's a reason for that, 269 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,839 and so you might say they're they're they're interpreting and understand. I'm not 270 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,960 saying that it's there's that that Christianity can be reduced to the ancient Greeks. 271 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,319 But what I am saying is that we don't, as a fact, get 272 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:42,039 our understanding of what Christianity is about in the West outside of the mediation of 273 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:47,720 of the intellectual structures that enabled that to be understood. And in a sense, 274 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,720 it's not just that this goes so far and then this picks up. 275 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:57,319 It's there's a sense in which those intellectual structures themselves are transformed by their engagement 276 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:02,200 with the Christian revelation. So works both ways. Yeah, I think that's 277 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,039 a great point. I was, you know, because obviously you know, 278 00:21:04,079 --> 00:21:07,599 you send me this book that your book, and I was reading it, 279 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,200 and so I thought, well, I have to reread The Consolation. I 280 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,920 had read it in maybe fifteen years or something, and I was so struck 281 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,240 by that part of the book itself. I felt like I was falling right 282 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,880 into the problem of emergence, the question of complexity that we're dealing with today. 283 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,759 And I realized to what extent, you know, how deeply Boethist had 284 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:30,279 perceived it, and what you know, and you can see that this type 285 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,440 of thinking, you know, the relationship between the many and the one, 286 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,839 and the kind of jump into intuition or this jump into something which transcends multiplicity, 287 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,680 you know, was so deeply understood, and now it's become a mystery 288 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,759 to us because we've had a few centuries of kind of rationalistic scientism that is 289 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,400 running out now and people are realizing that again. But definitely revisiting those chapters 290 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,279 in The Consolation is is worth it for people who are thinking about the problem 291 00:21:56,319 --> 00:22:00,640 of complexity, you know, even in technical terms right now. So maybe 292 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:06,440 we can just quickly, not quickly, but you know, yeah, go 293 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:10,160 into the argument of the of the book itself before we fall into the rhythms. 294 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,039 That's the thing that I really want to get into. But maybe we 295 00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:15,559 can help people understand a little bit with the argument of the book. You 296 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:19,720 know, Boethius is is basically lost all the things that he thinks or that 297 00:22:19,839 --> 00:22:25,160 most people think has are valuable to life, that are what make you make 298 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:29,799 life valuable. And then Consolation is trying to help them see through that. 299 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,319 And so maybe you can take people through the kind of basic argument of the 300 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:37,319 book and and what he's trying to help, what philosophy is trying to help 301 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:41,960 Boethius understand. I'd love I love to and tell me if I'm going too 302 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,160 slow trying to do this as quickly as I can. You know, it's 303 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,279 like sorry, it's like reduce the one of these fulgrims of Western civilization to 304 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,599 a few sentences, please at least you know, no more than so many 305 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:55,119 words. Well, well, let me let me just first take take the 306 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,519 take it, take the chance if I can. Some of your listeners might 307 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:03,319 be interested in I suspect and if they haven't already read read The Consolation of 308 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,720 Philosophy, and if they're looking for to read it in English. The one 309 00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:12,119 that I most like is this one, this little little read book. It's 310 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,279 called a low from the Lobe Library l O e. B. It's published 311 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:19,440 by Harvard, just a little about as big as your hand, and it's 312 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,319 got the Latin and the English both together, and so you can look back 313 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,799 and forth. But it's a nice little volume. Having the shelf. There's 314 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:30,279 something liturgical, there's something just very beautiful about the material materiality of a book. 315 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:36,799 I can't read books on a kindle or something myself very successfully, and 316 00:23:36,839 --> 00:23:40,000 so I like to recommend this just because I think it's a beautiful experience to 317 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:42,920 have this book in your hand. But the basic argument is this is that 318 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:51,839 it starts very very powerfully with we just with a poem, and it's a 319 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,680 woe is Me poem. Oh you know this, all this has happened, 320 00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:00,400 and you know, I wish I could die, you know, but I 321 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,559 can't, you know, But you know I call for death and he doesn't 322 00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:04,680 come, and it's just it's very woe is Me poem. It's not and 323 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,599 and uh uh. And then the book says, as I was writing, 324 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,839 as these verses were being dictated to me by the muses, and the poetic 325 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,720 muses are there, they're telling him what to write. Uh this, this 326 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,119 blazing figure comes in this philosophy is she's described as like having absolutely blazing eyes, 327 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,359 or she's she's she's able to pierce right through him, and she's got 328 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,920 this this kord of ambiguous stature. Sometimes she looked like she was as big 329 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,519 as a as a human being, and other times she was up to the 330 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,039 to the heavens, very rich symbolism, and then other times her head went 331 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,640 through the heavens. Uh. And she says, basically, who let these 332 00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:48,519 Shaney Cassimarri Triculis, who let these theatrical tarts or poetic horrors or what do 333 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,440 you want to say in here to this man? They have no cure for 334 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:55,759 his pain. They only make it worse. And and and so she's basically 335 00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:57,720 saying, you know, she's he's he's caught in this. And I think 336 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:02,400 this is a really interesting moment because we've all been there, right, you 337 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,279 know, this moment where you can't see out of your own depression. You're 338 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,079 you're you're in a bad thought pattern or whatever you want to call it. 339 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,519 You can't get out, you can't get get out and feeling sorry for yourself, 340 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:15,279 and that makes things and then you feel passive and you're to the victim 341 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,720 and it's also terrible. And so she comes in and and so it's very 342 00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:25,279 interesting. Her first move is this kind of condemnations of these poets who are 343 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:29,839 just making things worse. It's a kind of feeling uh sorry for myself, 344 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,599 uh, like Netflix show or something. And and she and she she kicks 345 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,640 them out. But it's worse than that. That's in a pattern, and 346 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,079 it's like a loop. It's a loop. And so she she kicks them 347 00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:44,480 out. But very interestingly, she then says, this woman who has just 348 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,680 banished the poets or the muses, she says, leave him to my muses 349 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,960 to heal and make whole. So what she's suggesting is that there's a different 350 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:56,880 kind of of poetry that isn't just sort of feel sorry for myself, woe 351 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,680 is me? But but but that could be salutary and and and transformative. 352 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:07,839 And so but then she she has uh she he can't even recognize her. 353 00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:11,039 We will have to skip through the symbolism. It's terrible to think to do 354 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:15,640 in a Jonathan pa Joe podcast. We can revisit it at some point, 355 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:22,319 but that her, she is such a richly symbolic figure. He can't this 356 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,440 the first few pages you could spend hours on them, but he can't recognize 357 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,400 her, even though he's studied with her. So he's his vision is blurred 358 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,079 with tears. But that's also metaphorical. He can't access, he can't recognize 359 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,519 his surroundings, he doesn't know himself, he can't recognize her. And there's 360 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,359 this beautiful moment. She's wearing this dress that she says, she's woven herself. 361 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:52,440 What does that mean. It's like, wisdoms represent what we can see 362 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,759 wisdom by, is the work of wisdom itself something like that. And uh, 363 00:26:56,039 --> 00:27:00,039 but it's torn, it's torn, it's it's marauding, you know, 364 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,000 it's like a bandits. He says, it's eventually, eventually, like all 365 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:10,799 the many competing philosophical schools have each taken a garment, taken part of it. 366 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:12,880 They've ripped the the Stoics or the Skeptics or the Epicureans or whatever. 367 00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:18,200 But clearly what Bleekish is after is that unitary you know, what brings all 368 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,200 these together. So what she says is so this beautiful moment, she makes 369 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,799 a foold in her dress, this kind of a sacramental moment, and she 370 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,319 wipes the tears away from his eyes so that he can see her and recognize 371 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,599 her as the teacher of his youth. And so there's this very beautiful moment 372 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,799 in which, you know, it's a moment, it's an act of grace. 373 00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:41,279 Fundamentally, it's an act of the good towards us that gets us out 374 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:47,319 out, frees us, liberates us from our our our inescapable self kind of 375 00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:52,200 regard and self pity. But then what happens is it is just tough freaking 376 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,319 love. She's like, you know, tell me what's wrong with you, 377 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,799 basically, And he goes on this long diatribe about OI, I lost, 378 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:03,000 that I was mistreated, I've been accused falsely of treason, and now I'm 379 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,599 here in the prison. And of course he's writing all this, but he's 380 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,720 portraying himself as just an absolute I have been and you know, let's take 381 00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:14,480 his word for it. Let's assume he's justly, his account of his situation 382 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,559 is fair, and he is a victim of these terrible injustices. And she's 383 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,519 and she said, and he says, I've been, I've been, I've 384 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:27,160 been banished, And she says to him, and this is such a pivot 385 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:33,599 in the book. She says, banished. You say, a man's true 386 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:36,599 homeland. If you are banished from your true homeland, well, then I 387 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,680 say you have banished yourself, because only you can remove yourself from you know, 388 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,279 true self possession in the place that you belong. And so his retort 389 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,240 is, well, hold on, I've lost all these things, how could 390 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,000 I be happy? And so the first part of the book, I'm going 391 00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:53,799 to move much more quickly here. Now, first part of the book is 392 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:57,440 as a kind of negative action, she has to separate him out from his 393 00:28:57,519 --> 00:29:02,519 attachments in the world. Is attachment to money, is attachment to his position 394 00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:04,720 of power and his fame and all of that. And she so she shows 395 00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:11,319 him like that. But you can certainly read your way through these beautiful arguments, 396 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:14,279 and they're so powerful in which she she says, Okay, you know, 397 00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:17,200 let's take money for example. You know, is it ever really yours? 398 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:18,240 What if the stock market crashes? You know, what if what if 399 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,240 someone steals it away? It's like in the argument of all these things, 400 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,160 same with frame fame, Well you could have your reputation trashed. And then 401 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,200 what you know, her argument is anything that can be taken away from you 402 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,519 is not really yours. So that's that's the first part of the book, 403 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,359 and he he has to think, Okay, then, well you know what 404 00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:41,839 is mine? And so she'll say, well, well, what are you 405 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,119 really seeking in those things? That's the next thing. So let's say in 406 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,279 wealth, maybe you're seeking security. So she shows that there's a spiritual good 407 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,839 that's really being sought in this thing that that you think is the thing, 408 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,400 but can be taken away from you, So it can't be what you're really 409 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,680 after because you wouldn't want a it wouldn't be a real happiness if someone, 410 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,359 if it were externally dependent, it could just be taken away. So then 411 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:10,920 she goes to show that what the the you might say, the actual object 412 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,799 is is being sought, whether it's security or power in the sense of ability 413 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:22,599 to realize myself, my power to realize what I'm really up seeking in the 414 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:29,720 world. That's say, it's not external or security or beauty or whatever the 415 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,039 case may be. And so she shows through this argument that there's a kind 416 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:37,440 of unitary all these things are connected, they're not separate. They're actually you 417 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,759 know, the thing that would really be desirable is to make you secure, 418 00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:47,000 is also beautiful, is also self sufficient and so on, and so she 419 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:49,839 shows how each of these spiritual goods that are behind the material I might say 420 00:30:49,880 --> 00:31:00,119 things, are actually all participating in in a single unified good. And so 421 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,400 then we come to this problem that we were talking about a minute ago, 422 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,160 which is that Okay, well, yeah, that's it, that's the thing. 423 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:11,640 But then the problem is my seeking of that in time. And you 424 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,839 know, sometimes I'm doing this and sometimes I'm doing that. They're all dividing 425 00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:18,920 this up. And so the very thing that I my, the very thing 426 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,680 I want, my approach to that thing is preventing me from having that thing. 427 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:26,799 And that's a very that's a very it's a very it's a very uh 428 00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:33,400 deep moment. And I think it's important to take a step back and reckon 429 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,240 a bit with you know, this as the kind of problem of finitude itself, 430 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,079 right, you know, how can any of our efforts ever amount to 431 00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:44,920 anything. Let's say you want to love your your partner, your wife, 432 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,119 your husband, your child. You want to love them like perfectly, you 433 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,599 want to This is like even that it's like you know, nothing but failure. 434 00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:56,519 You know, it's like the efforts to be adequate to even to this 435 00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:02,240 one thing, and so there's this moment of prayer that follows that, in 436 00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:08,200 which they're turning towards the highest good to help them overcome that problem, and 437 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:15,759 the remainder of the of the book, it gets in a sense, the 438 00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:20,759 problem becomes even more real, even even sharper. So let's say you're starting 439 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:25,680 out in this world of you know, you know, injustice and being robbed 440 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:31,480 of everything you had, you know, in a moment of suffering, and 441 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:35,559 you know, his complaint at the beginning I should have said, is is 442 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,960 that there's no order in the world, because these things would not be possible 443 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,960 if there was order in the world. I would not be in this, 444 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:49,559 this this position of disenfranchised injustice if there were. And so what she shows 445 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:59,119 in this first half is that there is order because your actions, this is 446 00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:02,279 an argument that comes from Plato, your actions are their own reward. So 447 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,559 you remember we were saying, how if it's external, like you know, 448 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,359 uh Riches, well that can be taken away from you. But if if 449 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:17,599 you what she shows is that within our actions, the good or evil they 450 00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:22,920 bring about is internal to them. So if you do something good in virtue, 451 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,960 in an act of love, that can't be taken away from you. 452 00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:29,000 It's it's what you are. Whereas even if you're not caught, if you 453 00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:31,839 do something that degrades your soul, that degradation is internal. You lie, 454 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,440 you betray someone, whatever. That's so. So what she says is that 455 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:44,160 is that is that actions have their own reward or punishment present in them. 456 00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:46,880 Yeah, the good that you do, that's the reward. And it's a 457 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,680 it's a it's a it's a reward in the also in the sense that you 458 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,240 cannot it cannot be taken away from you can't. You can't be stripped of 459 00:33:54,279 --> 00:34:00,039 that good because and so too in the negative side. And so so what 460 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:04,960 she shows is that in fact, intrinsic inaction is already this justice. You're 461 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,400 getting the reward of the punishment. Because his claim at the beginning is you 462 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,920 know, good people are you get punished, and you know, bad people 463 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,559 get rewarded. And she's saying, well, that may look at like what 464 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,760 it is externally, but actually internally that's not the case. And it's a 465 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:22,280 very deep in powerfult because there is ultimately there can be no happiness, he 466 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,800 argues, other than one that is internally possessed. So then the question is 467 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,079 how do you how do you possess that? But the second part of the 468 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,000 book is very interesting because you can see in a sense, and I think 469 00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:37,440 we all face this, Okay, we're living in what seems like a disordered 470 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:43,039 world, and then the answer can be well over yonder, there's a unity 471 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,760 that we seek, and that you can maybe in a moment of kind of 472 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:54,239 mysticism or something approach. But then very interesting in the second half of the 473 00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:01,400 book, the prisoner Bewethius rearticulates the initial problem at a higher, you might 474 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,639 say, even more fundamental level. What he wants Ultimately, we might say, 475 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:10,480 what all human beings in some sense, I would argue want, is 476 00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:16,159 not simply an answer that is over there, because we're living in the world 477 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:22,360 of the finite and the broken and the particular. He wants an answer that 478 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,960 makes sense here in the midst of this. And so the later part of 479 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:35,239 the book deals with this question of the relation between let's say time and eternity 480 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:42,719 of the finite in the infinite, and in a difficult sort of theological section 481 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,000 at the end, ultimately with the relation between free will and providence, or 482 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:52,360 that you might say, the absolute unity of the first principle itself. And 483 00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:58,480 I think what's so beautiful about the ending of this book, which I'm not 484 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,360 going to spoil for your for your listeners, but so beautiful about the ending 485 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,079 of the book is that it's a bit like the question of a ladder, 486 00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:09,400 Like if you get to the top and you kick away the ladder, or 487 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,760 you get to the top and you learn that the top destroys the ladder because 488 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,000 it's all predetermined or something was like wait a second, what what was my 489 00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:20,679 journey after all? Like? What was was that not real? And so 490 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,159 what I what I think is going on in this beautiful book and the way 491 00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:29,079 in which its wisdom is put in the form of poetry, of images of 492 00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:37,119 a beautiful rhetorical uh turns is it's really a work of you might say pedagogy. 493 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:42,599 It's a work in which the wisdom is being put in a way that 494 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:51,559 is adequate to the both the soul of the reader in confusion and alienation on 495 00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:55,840 the one hand, and to the integral wisdom that it is it is, 496 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,480 it is, it is conveying. So the fundamental you might say, argument 497 00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:07,440 is one that moves from alienation and this sense that the whole world is disordered, 498 00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:14,119 but that demands to be able to see an order within that to one 499 00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:19,280 that leads him on a journey such that he can see a deeper you might 500 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:25,280 say, spiritual logic as governing the world, but more just as importantly, 501 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:35,000 to come to see himself the mechanisms and principles of his own knowing of his 502 00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:40,159 own activities, as you might say, in the image of or a manifestation 503 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:46,239 of that underlying wisdom. Yeah, and so in that way, it's a 504 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:52,800 deeply incarnational approach. It's not a gnostic idea like you propose that the outset, 505 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,400 like the idea that you know, all of this is all illusional, 506 00:37:55,519 --> 00:37:59,760 this is all nothing, And once you get to the mystical unity with the 507 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,199 One, then you know all that other stuff doesn't matter. But rather this 508 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,079 formulation at all the levels of how it's adapted to the particular. And I 509 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:13,000 think this brings us to you know, the reason why I wanted to talk 510 00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:16,920 to mostly in the first place, which is that in your book, one 511 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:22,679 of the arguments you make is that the very structure of the poems, the 512 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,400 very use of meter, the very way in which Boethius, you know, 513 00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:37,000 structures the meter of the lines in the text is an incarnation of his journey, 514 00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:42,320 moving from a kind of broken disunity and you know, a kind of 515 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,719 confusion towards this deeper unity, and that in some ways that one of the 516 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:53,800 reasons why it has such an impact on Western civilization is that it is paralyturgical, 517 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,599 or it is liturgical in the sense that if someone goes on the journey 518 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:02,559 with Boethius, even reads a loud the poems, that that participation in the 519 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,360 rhythm, as as much as the idea that he's he's he's formulating rationally, 520 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:14,280 is reordering the soul of the participant towards the good that is aimed at in 521 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,320 the book. So maybe you can break down that argument, because I was 522 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,320 really fascinated by, you know, the proposition. You can talk a bit 523 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,159 about how you came to that and and what that looks like the same things 524 00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:30,400 what I what I discovered, and I hasten to add, like the the 525 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:37,960 acoustic superstructure this book is astonishing, and I sort of uncovered this, but 526 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,760 it's bit like I don't know, falling into a ditch and finding a gold 527 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,280 treasure or something. It's like I didn't I didn't make the treasure. I 528 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,000 just I just sort of realized it was there. And effectively, what I 529 00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:55,119 what I I argue is that these poems, these meters are organized into a 530 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,039 beautiful sort of symmetrical and interwoven str ructure. So there's a you might say, 531 00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:07,960 uh uh an an ordering of the acoustic character of the book that I 532 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:15,400 suggest mediates time and eternity. And now let's maybe it sounds like a difficult 533 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,400 thought, uh, but what I would want to maybe start with is is 534 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,440 that this, the need for repetition is absolutely fundamental to our need or to 535 00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:29,280 our ability to know, to know anything. So let's just to give a 536 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,920 good simple example. You know, you can't so much as recognize and memory, 537 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,880 let me say, memory and repetition are absolutely fundamentally uh connected. So 538 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,400 so you couldn't so much as you can't recognize, uh, you couldn't so 539 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:51,360 much as recognize yourself in the mirror or or your your front door, or 540 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,159 your your mom or whatever without without memory, right, because it's memory that 541 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,599 allows you to recognize in the present this as something that you already you already 542 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:12,559 know and so so so memory is necessary to see a repetition. But repetition 543 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,079 is necessary because without it there's no there's nothing stable at all. So to 544 00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:21,199 imagine, imagine, imagine, you know, just like being in a fire 545 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:22,639 hose. You know, life is a fire hose. It's just coming at 546 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:25,960 you. There's no interpretation of anything. It's just you know, you don't 547 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,119 even know it's water, right, because it's just that's you know that that's 548 00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:37,599 the kind of overwhelming locks of movement and change, your total nothing but change. 549 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:44,679 Let's put it that that way, and you know life feels that way 550 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,519 sometimes, right, I mean that, so you can look at this. 551 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:52,159 Let's just start in the most stable way, I mean, in the most 552 00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:53,760 in the in the in the in the simplest way. Let's say, you 553 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,920 know, we've all been around babies, you know, most of us anyway, 554 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,280 when they're you know, early on when they're born, and you know, 555 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,159 they look up at their at their hand, and and they don't even 556 00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:07,119 know that's their hand, right, Like they have no idea, it's it's 557 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,320 they're not yet conscious of that fact. And so the question is how do 558 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,000 you move from that moment as a as a child, as an infant that 559 00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:16,760 can't even recognize its mother or its own like limbs, to one that knows, 560 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,079 oh, this is me and know that's that's my mother. And what 561 00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:25,559 I what uh, What I'm arguing is that it's the it's repetition, it's 562 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:31,039 seeing this again and again and again that stabilizes you imagine yourself as an infant. 563 00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:36,519 It's just everything moving around and to us like the world is stable. 564 00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:38,559 It's like, no, there's the door to the front house and that's mom, 565 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:43,239 and you know, there's the fireplace, and you know there's the there's 566 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,000 the the painting on the wall or whatever, and here are the people. 567 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:50,199 I see them all. But the question on what I'm trying to draw out 568 00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:53,039 here is how do you get there to the point where that you can interpret 569 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:58,000 that world versus where the baby starts? But I don't want to put ourselves 570 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,119 in the baby's position in a sense of to where we actually are, right, 571 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:09,880 because the question is you can only interpret the movement of the world around 572 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:15,119 you by stabilizing it, by by having a frame that locates it such that 573 00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:21,639 you can see this particularity within a pattern, whether it's a person. This 574 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,840 I'm giving examples of physical things, but as you go deeper, you realize 575 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:34,440 there are deeper patterns that govern those things, and so My argument fundamentally is 576 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:45,719 that we need recurrence of we need to expose ourselves to recurrence or repetition in 577 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,800 order to be shaped in such a way such that our memories are able to 578 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,519 interpret and understand the world around us. And so we see this, you 579 00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:54,679 know, we see this, you know all the time with you know, 580 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,559 the cycle of day and night. You know, imagine we were just living 581 00:43:58,559 --> 00:44:01,719 in one endless day and there was no sun coming up and down. Imagine 582 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,000 there was no cycle of seasons. Of course, you live at the equator, 583 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,639 that is in fact what you have. But for most of us, 584 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,679 we're living in a movement through time in which they are these cycles and so 585 00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:16,719 and we do this at home. We have rituals in the morning, and 586 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,360 we have rituals in the evening, and we have rituals that you know, 587 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,840 Christmas time or religious holidays and so on. We have civic liturgies. In 588 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:31,840 Canada, Remembrance Days is historically important moment. In America. In the United 589 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,599 States, Thanksgiving is an important such day. And what those are are rhythms 590 00:44:37,199 --> 00:44:44,800 of a certain kind of practice through which we gather ourselves and our experience in 591 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,760 order to understand it. So you pause on Thanksgiving, and you might say 592 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,559 you gather up all of the last that has happened since you've last done that 593 00:44:54,400 --> 00:45:01,119 in a moment that allows you to understand yourself and relation to say gratitude. 594 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,440 But I would say at a at a more fundamental level, or at a 595 00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:09,440 very fundamental level, this is the case with all of us all the time. 596 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:15,280 But that's just one more thing, and that is that there's a sense 597 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:22,960 in which you think about the infant. You can't recognize something that isn't part 598 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,480 of a repetition that you recognize. And so we are in a certain sense 599 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:32,960 nothing but the memories that we hold that allow us to interpret the world. 600 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,440 And that's why the shaping of our memories is so important, because it's what 601 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:45,599 enables us to see the world around us. And so in some sense it's 602 00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:51,119 why you might say the study of history or the forming of ourselves in relation 603 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,840 to fundamental patterns. Otherwise you end up being like the infant who doesn't even 604 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,599 know that's your mother. You can't you can't see what's in front of you. 605 00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:06,360 The world is an unset stable flocks until you internalize its patterns such that 606 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,639 you can see them outside of you. Yeah, and I think that before 607 00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:14,960 we get deeper into the Boethist idea, you know, it's important for people 608 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,159 to understand that. That's why Plato, you know, almost joins together the 609 00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:22,800 idea of memory and knowledge. That is, to know something is to remember 610 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:30,039 it. And you know, we can find different ways of formulating formulating that 611 00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:35,400 metaphysically. You know, obviously Plato had this kind of reincarnation model where where 612 00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:38,840 the sense that you're remembering you know, ancient lives and that is what makes 613 00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:43,239 is making participate in it. And you know, as humans now we can 614 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,320 we don't need a reincarnation model to understand that. Even biologically, we understand 615 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:53,440 that we are the descendants of patterns that have re embodied themselves over and over 616 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:59,199 and over and we part and it's when we when we know something means we're 617 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,239 tapping in to that at the low level. We could also formulate it vertically 618 00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:08,480 and understand that when we know something, we are connecting to a cosmic memory. 619 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:14,719 We're connecting to a cosmic pattern of repetition and of truth that instantiates itself 620 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,000 just the world, and we kind of remember that way. So even whether 621 00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:22,679 you look at it as biological or whether you look at it vertically towards these 622 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,480 idea that there are these kind of transcendent cosmic patterns. We can understand how 623 00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:32,239 knowledge is memory, and it's represented that way in the Bible, by the 624 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,480 way constantly, you know, you could we could call it attention and memory, 625 00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:40,239 right, attention and memory as as kind of two faces of the same 626 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,880 thing. The idea that God remembers man, that man remembers God. We 627 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,000 see that in the story of Noah. We see that in the story of 628 00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:51,719 Jonah. We see it constantly in the you know. And when we you 629 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:57,079 know, even when we talk about the way in which we participate in the 630 00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:00,639 people that came before us, we formulate that as memory. Why do we 631 00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:04,400 we have memorials? We talk when someone dies in the Orthodox tradition, we 632 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,559 say memory eternal, and that their memory be eternal. But it is. 633 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,800 It's not just a vague sentimentality. It's a mode of participation, right, 634 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,440 It's a mode of I'm connecting to those ancient lives and I'm a continuation, 635 00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:22,719 a re embodiment of the good that they these people did in our lives today. 636 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,400 And so I think that for people just to understand that that that this 637 00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:32,800 isn't just a kind of artistic, artistic fancy to talk about these questions a 638 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,000 pattern and memory, but they really are really the way that in which we 639 00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:39,960 engage with with the way in which we recognize the world to exist, you 640 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:45,519 know, just full stop. Yeah, And there's a way in which the 641 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,800 like if you imagine, you know, life in the fire hose, and 642 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:57,320 in some sense you know we're in this time in history. We're all way 643 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,960 too much in the fire hose in a sense, right, And and but 644 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,280 if you if you imagine, you know, by metaphor the infant who can't 645 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:13,840 recognize anything, uh as a kind of metaphor for how many of us, 646 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,960 certainly myself, you are living far too much of the time. The question 647 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,519 is, well, what is the alternative to that? And what is it 648 00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:25,360 that allows anything to become stable so that you're you're you're you're not simply like 649 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,000 if you imagine, you know, every day living every day different with completely 650 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,519 different paths, completely different people, completely different place, you would know nothing 651 00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:37,320 at all. Right, You're just you're just in this in this constant see 652 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:43,599 of change. And what I think is is is so interesting, is that 653 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,280 you know what is going on in a moment in which you know, you 654 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:52,679 step outside of that and you sort of understand, Oh, that moment and 655 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,320 this moment and this moment, those are all those are all in me and 656 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:01,960 connected and understood, And you know, I think it's often interesting to talk 657 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:09,000 about. For example, people often in experience of nature have this sense which 658 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:15,639 you know, they move beyond the particular into something that gathers the particular, 659 00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:20,480 often in music or art, and you're listening to I don't know. Bach 660 00:50:20,599 --> 00:50:24,239 is often very famously brought up in these connections because of the way that his 661 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:36,599 music has touch an astonishing integration of patterns moving through time that you can track 662 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,960 with. And so what I'm wanting to say most fundamentally is that there is 663 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:50,239 no self consciousness itself, Like any knowledge of anything is a stabilization that is 664 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:55,880 taking us outside of the immediate into something that is transhistorical. Right, So 665 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:02,519 the moment that you you know, let's say, you know, you understand 666 00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:07,920 yourself to be the same person that you were, the same person as you 667 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,840 were when you were a kid. You know that you haven't changed and grown 668 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,079 up and so on, but you see a continuity You're like, oh, 669 00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:15,920 no, you remember that, and now and so in that moment, in 670 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:21,559 our in ourselves, what we have in our in our memories is a way 671 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:27,280 of making the past present now. And so memory is by definition, and 672 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,960 of course the present doesn't really exist, right because as soon as you're aware 673 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:31,440 of it, it's already happened. It's like you know that, it's like 674 00:51:31,519 --> 00:51:34,679 perception. You know the thing. By the time you see it, it's 675 00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:37,880 already in the past. You know, even just a micro second or whatever, 676 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,199 but it's already happened. And so what I'm trying to suggest is that 677 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,239 is that it sounds very high falutint and difficult when you talk about the relation 678 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:53,760 between time and eternity, but this is really the the nature of life, 679 00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:02,079 right, is that that you you can be you can be lost in flux 680 00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:09,760 and movement, or you can The answer to that is to find some longer 681 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:17,079 continuity that you by definition, has already taken you outside of time. But 682 00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:20,440 then the question is, well, what does that have to do with my 683 00:52:20,519 --> 00:52:24,559 movement through the world in time? And so in some sense that's precisely what 684 00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:30,960 patterns give us, is that give us ways of stabilizing ourselves in our movement 685 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,639 through time, such that we're able to see in the moment the eternal or 686 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:45,000 open the moment becomes something that reveals a deeper stability. Yeah, and so 687 00:52:45,199 --> 00:52:46,960 it's interesting. Like one of the arguments that you make very simply in the 688 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:52,760 book that I found really powerful is that you talk about how the patterning of 689 00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:58,760 the words and the patterning of the you know, the creation of these these 690 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,639 frames there are mnemonic in the sense that they help you remember, right, 691 00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:06,079 And people talk about that sometimes too, when they say that one of the 692 00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:08,760 reasons why monks would chant the psalms or that rabbis would chant the psalms is 693 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:15,159 so because by doing this kind of pattern language, it's easier to remember the 694 00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:20,400 text. But there's also a deeper sense in which it's mnemonic, right, 695 00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:24,039 is in the sense that it's connecting you to the pattern of reality itself. 696 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:30,400 It's making you remember that it is through this pattern existence that anything that everything 697 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,599 that we participate in comes to find any cohesion whatsoever. Right. The fact 698 00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:38,800 that you exist is mnemonic. Right, The fact that that because you're able 699 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:44,719 to connect all these different element elements together towards knowing that, like you said, 700 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,760 the five year old version of Stephen and You in a in a very 701 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,039 mysterious way, is the same being that is continuing on with the same the 702 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:57,079 same pattern. Yeah. I just thought that was really interesting because maybe it 703 00:53:57,119 --> 00:54:00,239 can go a bit a little bit into that, into you know, because 704 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:05,360 that this is to me the deeper understanding of musicality and also the deeper understanding 705 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,119 of you know, when we we I remember when I was in school, 706 00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:12,920 but people talked about the idea of the music of the spheres and how it's 707 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,599 kind of this kind of ridiculous mythology, right, the idea that the spheres 708 00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:20,760 make music and that we don't hear it anymore. But that is the deepest 709 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,000 part of that, which is that the music of the spheres, or even 710 00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:30,360 the ancient study of music wasn't just the ancient study of how to make entertainment 711 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:37,199 music for a party, but really how to live in the patterns, like 712 00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,639 really what liturgy is and this is what this is there in Boiti's himself as 713 00:54:40,639 --> 00:54:45,239 well in his text. Yeah, So I mean, let's let's just let's 714 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:52,559 put this way that that two things. First, this whole kind of the 715 00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:59,719 art of memory we've talked about, the mnem monocle is you know, it's 716 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,280 pretty amazing. First of all, what you what a human mind can remember? 717 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,719 And you know, you know, Plato in the Faders is worried about 718 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,320 our losing our memories when we start writing things down, and you know, 719 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,280 that's exactly what happens. And we see that with the internet is not what 720 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,039 you know is where to find it and all those kind of nonsense. But 721 00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:16,039 it's also true that it happens. That's what happens is you know, when 722 00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:19,599 you don't need to you know, you you lose that. And so it's 723 00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:23,960 actually a very scary thing to think about how much less we have in us 724 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:29,480 to understand the world, right because we think we can just find it all. 725 00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:31,719 We don't get what to look for, right. And so what I 726 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,559 what I want to say is first of all, that the human mind is 727 00:55:35,559 --> 00:55:38,000 an amazing thing from the point of view of memory. And if you look 728 00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:42,519 into the Medievals and even today their memory competitions, people who think they have 729 00:55:42,599 --> 00:55:47,320 bad memories are then capable of astonishing feats, right. But the deeper point 730 00:55:49,199 --> 00:55:53,159 is is what that is doing in terms of formation. And so it's interesting 731 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,239 that when we have in English, for example, we have in the first 732 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,920 place, we say in the second place. And this is a this is 733 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,840 a holdover from from from the art you might say, the art of memory 734 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,840 in the Middle Ages, when you would if you're trying to remember something, 735 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,559 you would say, okay, well let's say that maybe the houses on my 736 00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:15,000 street or the the rooms in my house, and you say, okay, 737 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,559 I'm going to put this thing that I want to remember in the first room, 738 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,639 and you picture it there, and this thing in the second room, 739 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,559 and and so on, and that this is sort of a short version of 740 00:56:25,599 --> 00:56:30,199 how the art of memory works. But I want to make a much deeper 741 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:37,360 point, which is that in some sense, you can only understand that which 742 00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:40,760 you have the places to put things. You can only put things in places 743 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,760 you have to put them. That's what I'm trying to say. And so 744 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:52,239 what does that mean? Well, Aristotle has this this wonderful account of habit, 745 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,199 and you know today we like to think, well, you know, 746 00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,360 I did all these bad things, but I'm not. Really that doesn't really 747 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,000 define me. That's not really what I am. Well, Arisola would say, 748 00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,320 no, you are. You are what you've what you what you what 749 00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:08,800 you've done. And and habits are very powerful, right because you know they're 750 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,800 they're they're, they're they're like an unconscious memory. You repeat it, and 751 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:15,079 you did it again and again and again, and then it's just what you 752 00:57:15,119 --> 00:57:19,519 are like, you know. I give the example sometimes that in the home 753 00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:22,920 that that my family lived in for many years, at one point they moved 754 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,079 the cutlery drawer for the silverware from one part of the kitchen to the other. 755 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,320 And it was after I'd gone to college and I'd come back, I 756 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,079 would always be going there, right, because it's but but you can you 757 00:57:32,119 --> 00:57:40,840 can put that, uh, you can take that example and realize that that 758 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:47,599 that we form ourselves by the things we do. And if you're formed in 759 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:55,000 i don't know, listening to a lot of negativity and anger and frustration and 760 00:57:55,079 --> 00:58:00,760 rancor on the internet, like, that's what you become in a found sense. 761 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,679 Right, That's where that's the truth of Plato's line, Right, is 762 00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:09,920 that you you the kind of vision we bring is to the world. The 763 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:16,800 form of perceiving limits what we're able to see in it. And so the 764 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,320 whole question of habit is so important. And for example, if you were 765 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,559 a parent, you know, you think about, well, you could you 766 00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:28,760 know, teach your child to you don't know, to have no self control, 767 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,719 and and and and you know, be completely dominated by his or her 768 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:37,760 emotions by rewarding certain behavior, and and so and then well, what the 769 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:45,280 world that that child is able to see is completely constrained by the habits they 770 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,719 have taken on. The person they can become is limited by the fact that 771 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:53,880 there they they had habits that prevent a deeper form of seeing in the world. 772 00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:59,599 Whereas if you you know, is the wonderful line in the scripture says, 773 00:58:59,639 --> 00:59:02,760 you know, if you set your mind on things above such that you 774 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:09,719 have habits of recollection, such that you're able to see and perceive deeper pattern 775 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:15,079 deeper patterns, and you might say, become more and more adequate to those 776 00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:22,519 patterns, whether it's of you know, love or patience or humility or whatever. 777 00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,639 Then that's what you're able to find in the world. But it's not 778 00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:30,519 as if you can access in the world that which you don't already have the 779 00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:35,079 way of being able to see. And that's why I give the language of 780 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:42,039 the image of the infant who is lost to even seeing his or her own 781 00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:45,840 hands in the world. Now, because we have the categories of consciousness, 782 00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:52,039 it's not as if we're a blank slate. The infant is innately able to 783 00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:55,960 recognize these patterns because the human mind is made in such a way as to 784 00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,519 be able to perceive them, and if it weren't, then it wouldn't be 785 00:59:59,559 --> 01:00:05,679 able to able to see them. But the point fundamentally is that everything is 786 01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:10,239 at stake in the habits we develop and the patterns we expose ourselves to, 787 01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:15,400 because it is what we will be able to see in the world. Yeah, 788 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,400 and I think that's such a Everybody can find examples in themselves or in 789 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:25,400 other people where they've noticed that, you know, let's say someone who who 790 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,519 is not trustworthy, or someone who tries to trick people, tries to get 791 01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:34,960 things well, their world will get built that way, and then at some 792 01:00:35,039 --> 01:00:38,000 point they'll find themselves in a situation where they're also surrounded by people that you 793 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,920 can't trust, that you're surrounded by people that they shouldn't trust. But it's 794 01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,920 and the opposite is true, is that you know, this is something that 795 01:00:49,039 --> 01:00:52,159 you can see in Christ's word, the idea of saying that if you judge 796 01:00:52,199 --> 01:00:57,039 not right, lest you be judged, that is that if you if you 797 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,519 practice the good, then all of a sudden you will start to see goodness 798 01:01:00,519 --> 01:01:07,119 in the world. That because the world has multiplicity, invariance and that, 799 01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,360 and there's even a powerful way in which if you learn to live in the 800 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,440 good and see the good, you can actually call the good out of others, 801 01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,119 right, you can actually And you know that because sometimes you realize that 802 01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:21,519 when you were certain people, you're the best version of yourself, and then 803 01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:24,239 when you were with other people, you kind of become the worst version of 804 01:01:24,239 --> 01:01:28,960 yourself in all in all kinds of ways. And that this is what you're 805 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,519 trying to bring about, is that the patterning of existence has a deep effect 806 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,159 on who you are and who you remember yourself to be. Because we do 807 01:01:37,239 --> 01:01:43,360 have the potential of being of change, like of changing. That's that's what 808 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,199 humans are. We can be, you know, all kinds of different things, 809 01:01:46,239 --> 01:01:50,880 and that can happen at any time in our life. But if we 810 01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,719 have these deep patterns of virtue, but also deep patterns of habit in the 811 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,599 simple sense, you know, like eating three meals a day, sleeping certain 812 01:01:59,639 --> 01:02:00,960 amount of hours, you know, And I see it in my life because 813 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,519 I have a you know, I have this weird I have a kind of 814 01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:09,159 creative bent to myself, and I can see myself sometimes fall into like not 815 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:13,800 know, not sleeping, not eating well not and then things start to shake 816 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,000 around me, like in every way, like not just in terms of my 817 01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:19,760 habit, but also in terms of the way I treat others, the way 818 01:02:20,039 --> 01:02:22,920 I see the world, why I interpret the way other people treat me. 819 01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,440 And it starts to shake. But you know, maybe you can bring us 820 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:30,559 through a little bit how it is that Boysies does it in his text, 821 01:02:30,679 --> 01:02:34,119 Like what is it that he brings you through through? Really, even without 822 01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,920 going into details about the different meters of the poems, but the basic image 823 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:42,400 of how he takes the reader, the participant in his text through a kind 824 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:51,280 of poetic transformation towards towards the highest good. I'd be happy to to try 825 01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,119 and say a few things about that I've just been meditating on. I think 826 01:02:55,119 --> 01:03:00,199 what you're saying is very very deep. I mean the way that I mean, 827 01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:04,840 what is the So we tend to think that the way we feel about 828 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,480 the world is how the world is right, but it's actually no, no, 829 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,840 no, no, that's that's exactly. That's where Plato starts is saying, 830 01:03:12,039 --> 01:03:15,760 no, you can you're the way you, you might say, feel 831 01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:21,480 about the world is determining what you're able to see. That's what's going on. 832 01:03:21,559 --> 01:03:23,039 It's nothing, you might say, to do with the world in a 833 01:03:23,119 --> 01:03:27,880 sense. And so the question is, well, how do you have a 834 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,920 vision that's more and more adequate to seeing what's really there? And that's that's, 835 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,760 you might say, the whole question of the spiritual intellectual life, that's 836 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,480 a whole question of parenting or teaching or whatever. How do you how do 837 01:03:37,519 --> 01:03:43,840 you shape yourself or others into a way that you can see what's really there? 838 01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:46,239 And you think about the difference between someone who's you know, you know, 839 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:51,960 always complaining or woe is me or whatever, or or always busy and 840 01:03:52,039 --> 01:03:55,480 running onto the next things. Sometimes I am often I am, or someone 841 01:03:55,519 --> 01:04:00,000 who is I don't know what What is it like to be with someone that 842 01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:06,119 sees you when you when you're in their presence, you think, gosh, 843 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:12,880 I just feel better. I feel like I'm I'm seeing I'm I'm I'm closer 844 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,920 to what I'm meant to be? What is going on with someone who I 845 01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:21,840 knew I've known a few people like this who's very presence was able to mediate 846 01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:27,559 a deeper sense of the world, a truer, more beautiful sense of the 847 01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:30,000 world. Now, now, in terms of brief is I'll just give a 848 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:38,360 couple of examples. The poetry works in different ways. One way it works, 849 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,920 as you know, those of you who read poetry, you know that 850 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,679 you know. The way the rhythm works is part of the way the message 851 01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,159 is conveyed, that the messages is encoded in that sense, partly in the 852 01:04:49,199 --> 01:04:53,679 in, the in the in the in the way in which that it sounds. 853 01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,599 You know, you get these wonderful rhythms. I give example, you 854 01:04:57,639 --> 01:04:59,880 know, towards the night before Christmas, and all through the house, not 855 01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:02,039 creature was stirring, not even a mouse, and that that and that kind 856 01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:04,360 of rhythm. You have this sort of way of you know, you're, 857 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:10,199 you're, you're, it's it's lulling you in. It's a beautiful repeated pattern 858 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,199 again and again. Uh. But you can also have you can also have 859 01:05:14,719 --> 01:05:18,159 rhythms that are that are jarring, that that are there surprising or or or 860 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:23,159 or unexpected. Of course, that's what jazz often often often does. And 861 01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:29,440 so so one level at which the poetry works is it's it's it's simply manifesting 862 01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,920 you might say the truth or the idea that is present in the poem. 863 01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:39,880 So uh uh. For example, there's a there's a lovely lyrical meat meter 864 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,159 dumb da da dumb da dumb, the dumb dumb da da dumb da dumb 865 01:05:43,199 --> 01:05:46,000 to dumb that that in this this it's called a glyiconic. But what beautiful 866 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:50,320 in that is that he uses it in the early on to describe the stability 867 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:56,800 of the seasons and and and the the consistency of these changes in nature. 868 01:05:57,199 --> 01:06:00,960 And so he's using this wonderful lyric. She is using it, I should 869 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,400 say, lady philosophy. Philosophy is using it as a way of she's trying 870 01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:11,119 to settle him down and speak a kind of stability to him in his instability. 871 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,519 And she does this so I mean so wonderful the way she does this, 872 01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:18,679 both by giving him images that his mind can say, oh, yeah, 873 01:06:18,719 --> 01:06:23,519 I know those patterns in nature I've seen I've seen I've seen seen that, 874 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:28,800 but also putting it in a way so that it's sonically acoustically stabilizing and 875 01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:30,119 lyrical. It's like, you know, we all know with a with an 876 01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:32,360 infant, you know, what do you do with an infant? That's that's 877 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,920 that's you know, upset and crying and so on. You know, you 878 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:41,360 tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap. That's right, and then you 879 01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,320 know, you can music can do the same thing. But at the very 880 01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:49,719 most basic level, the rocking is a pattern that stabilizes the child. So 881 01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:54,519 that's one sense. And then there are other poems where where she's talking about 882 01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:58,920 the instability of fortune, for example, and it'll be like dump dump dump 883 01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:01,199 dump, you know will be it will be, So he'll she'll use an 884 01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,760 unstable meter to convey the instability. So that's one level. But then what's 885 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:13,119 amazing is that is that is that some of these meters they occur later on, 886 01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,639 and then the question is, well, what's going on there? Is 887 01:07:16,719 --> 01:07:18,719 it the same? Is it just well, okay, well we figured it 888 01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:23,039 out last time and it was in stang it was lyrical and stable or it 889 01:07:23,079 --> 01:07:27,840 was instable. But actually, what I what I what I think is going 890 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:33,280 on is the way in which the later uses of the meters are doing something 891 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:39,480 redemptive relative to uh that that you might say, the problems or issues or 892 01:07:39,519 --> 01:07:43,119 matters that were raised in the in the first time time time around. So 893 01:07:43,199 --> 01:07:48,199 you know, there's there's one in which the instability of a meter that was 894 01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:54,519 used to describe the you know, the contingency or called fortuna, the instability 895 01:07:54,519 --> 01:08:00,199 of the world, you know, all that unknowns. She actually uses to 896 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:08,159 show how that instability is comprehended by a deeper pattern. So the way I 897 01:08:08,159 --> 01:08:14,239 I think this is so beautiful, Jonathan, because because there's a there's a 898 01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,920 deep sense in which healing has to take place at the site of the wound, 899 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,199 right like if if you've had this kind of experience or that and you've 900 01:08:21,239 --> 01:08:27,119 been shaped or damaged or broken, that's where the healing has to be. 901 01:08:28,199 --> 01:08:30,520 And so I think one thing that's going on in in the in the poem 902 01:08:31,199 --> 01:08:40,199 is she's she's she's redeeming these broken moments by through this you might say, 903 01:08:40,239 --> 01:08:44,840 acoustic recollection of an earlier moment to give you might say, the answer to 904 01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:51,319 the problem or the pain that was in the first instance. And so it's 905 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:57,720 it's a way of you might say, redeeming by show by recollecting UH. 906 01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:00,479 And of course psychologists use this this this UH all the time. But then 907 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,279 there's a third level, and that is that is I think that as you 908 01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:09,000 look at the poem as an acoustic structure, the poems of the book as 909 01:09:09,039 --> 01:09:14,159 an acoustic structure, and then readers who are interested can see UH pattern this 910 01:09:14,199 --> 01:09:17,960 out in color at the back of the book. You've got to get the 911 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,840 paperback though, because the hardcover was printed in black and white and it's much 912 01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:29,119 harder to see. But the paperbag you can see these unbelievably intricate patterns of 913 01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:32,920 the poems. And so what I'm I'm arguing is that is that the whole 914 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:41,760 acoustic structure of the poetry has an interwoven UH pattern. That means that any 915 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,720 point of it is part of It's like what you say about fractalization, right, 916 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:49,680 any point of it is integrated within a larger pattern. And so maybe 917 01:09:49,720 --> 01:10:00,319 maybe UH share two things quickly, and one is that you know, I 918 01:10:00,319 --> 01:10:04,000 think we this is how memory works, right, Like I give the example 919 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,720 in the book that where I grew up, I love wild roses, and 920 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,359 I've all these you know these the first instance, you see the rose, 921 01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:15,640 Wow, that's that smells good, and it's kind of a memory on its 922 01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,680 own. But then the longer you go through life like that, well, 923 01:10:19,159 --> 01:10:21,800 oh that reminds me of that place that I used to go in the summer 924 01:10:23,159 --> 01:10:29,239 and with that person, and then it it it it's it's a reminder of 925 01:10:29,359 --> 01:10:31,920 childhood, and it's reminded. And so you start seeing that you smell the 926 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:38,479 rose again and you're like, WHOA that has all these deep forms of pattern 927 01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,720 that it brings up to you. Maybe it's a it's it's reminding you of 928 01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,520 loss, or of happiness or and so all of these things become collected precisely 929 01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:51,079 because the patterns are moving through different moments in time. And and you know, 930 01:10:51,159 --> 01:10:56,159 I you know, my grandmother died a few years ago, and I 931 01:10:56,239 --> 01:10:59,760 know you know, if someone was wearing her perfume it was very distinctive to 932 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,039 her, that would bring back all of my memories of my my grandmother. 933 01:11:02,119 --> 01:11:04,520 So there's a there's this sense of which one thing we want to do is 934 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:11,199 to scaffold into life the patterns that enable us to gather up our past as 935 01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:15,600 present in a way that it could be comprehended. And then and then the 936 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,640 other thing I would say is that, as you say, if you look 937 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,920 in the in Dependence of my book, you see all these really complicated patterns. 938 01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:25,079 And I had a moment when I was writing this that I thought, 939 01:11:26,319 --> 01:11:31,319 I mean really like, you're really there, like it seems pretty complicated. 940 01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:40,359 And and I was my brother was living in rural Vermont. My wife was 941 01:11:40,399 --> 01:11:45,000 away, and my brother would come to visit, uh in the hills of 942 01:11:45,079 --> 01:11:49,560 Vermont and a mountain ridge. And I taken him to the bus station and 943 01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:56,079 I was driving back, uh and uh. Uh So this woman hitchhiking at 944 01:11:56,079 --> 01:12:00,399 the side of the road. Uh and uh. Of course where you hitch, 945 01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:01,000 like side of the road. And she's standing on the side of the 946 01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:06,079 road and she's she's she's clearly upset. She's got a garbage bag with all 947 01:12:06,279 --> 01:12:14,600 sort of her possessions. And I I stopped, and you know, before 948 01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:16,520 I could start, it had already been stopped. She was she was already 949 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:20,439 kind of threw her things in the back and got in, and she was 950 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:27,640 very upset. She was, you know, woman in very challenging circumstances. 951 01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,840 And as I got to know her where she was going, it was about 952 01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:32,720 forty five minutes away, and I was not too too far from where I 953 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,800 was I was going, and we got into a conversation about her and she 954 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:44,199 had a very sad sort of life story and multi generational dysfunction and drug abuse 955 01:12:44,239 --> 01:12:47,399 and children in prison, and it was it was very, very very sad, 956 01:12:48,279 --> 01:12:53,680 and she had been crying and I don't know what had happened. She 957 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,800 had a sort of immediate crisis where she couldn't stay where she was and had 958 01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:01,920 to go somewhere else, and so her things in the garbage bag and uh 959 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:08,800 ah. Her name was Constance. I think she may have been. I 960 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,760 don't know if she may maybybe she was an angel. She was as I 961 01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,199 as I tell this story, it just seems to be unbelievable. Her name 962 01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:18,800 was Constance, right, But anyway, so she was very upset and I 963 01:13:19,399 --> 01:13:24,439 asked her. I was trying to, you know, as we try to 964 01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:26,840 do for people. It's like what philosophy does for bewek is. I was 965 01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,279 trying to calm her. I was trying to help her find, you know, 966 01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:34,359 rediscover herself. And so I asked her, you know, what do 967 01:13:34,399 --> 01:13:39,079 you what do you like to do? And she said, oh, I 968 01:13:39,119 --> 01:13:43,039 said, I love to knit. And I said, really, tell me, 969 01:13:43,199 --> 01:13:45,039 tell me, tell me about it. And she said, well, 970 01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:47,680 you know, when I'm when I'm knitting. He said, what do you 971 01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,359 like knitting? She said, well, when I'm knitting, she said, 972 01:13:50,359 --> 01:13:56,439 I lose myself in a pattern and and I said, you know, here 973 01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:00,760 I was working on these patterns and things about the recollection itself was I mean, 974 01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,199 she met lose herself in the tense of finding herself. It was connecting 975 01:14:03,199 --> 01:14:08,520 with something, something, something, something more permanent. And and I said, 976 01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,520 uh, well, you know you're knitting anything now and she said, 977 01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:16,479 yeah, I am knitting this, this this blanket for my daughter. And 978 01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,520 I said, tell you about it and she said, well, it's it's 979 01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,039 pretty complicated. And I said, well, I'd love to hear about it. 980 01:14:21,199 --> 01:14:25,239 And she said, okay, Well there's there's twelve sections and each of 981 01:14:25,279 --> 01:14:30,199 the sections has six colors and the patterns the colors change in these patterns in 982 01:14:30,239 --> 01:14:34,159 each section and then they relate. And I was like, ho, these 983 01:14:34,239 --> 01:14:39,279 smokes like this is unbelievable. See this woman is telling me an account. 984 01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:42,319 And she got all this in her head and she said, in the back, 985 01:14:42,399 --> 01:14:44,039 it's in this bag. In the back, you want me to show 986 01:14:44,039 --> 01:14:48,399 it to you. And so here I had this beautiful kind of revelation of 987 01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:56,479 this, you know, woman in very difficult circumstances who was showing me like 988 01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,199 in her profound way the truth of what was happening. What I had sort 989 01:15:00,199 --> 01:15:03,520 of discovered in some sense in Boethius, that that you know, you think 990 01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:09,680 it's complicated, you know it is. Life is complicated. Bach is complicated, 991 01:15:10,079 --> 01:15:18,199 but it's complicated, it's very complication. It's it's interwovenness is what enables 992 01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:25,279 it to stabilize and gather things into a pattern. And so I came, 993 01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,399 of course to think that these patterns really were not only really worth. They 994 01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:35,239 can be there knitting, they could probably be there in Boethous exactly. So 995 01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:41,680 it's thanks to constance that you might say, in a sense, I came 996 01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:50,039 to see how how much we need, too, how much we need to 997 01:15:50,399 --> 01:15:59,800 expose ourselves to patterns through which we can uncover and discover ourselves. I mean, 998 01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:01,720 it's such a great insight that you have, because if you can imagine 999 01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:06,279 the woman knitting, you know, and you know, I imagine at first 1000 01:16:06,359 --> 01:16:10,000 she's counting, right, she's actually counting. She's like one, two, 1001 01:16:10,079 --> 01:16:12,520 three, Da da da da da da da da da da. And at 1002 01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:16,079 some point she probably also stops counting, where it becomes like when you're dancing 1003 01:16:16,119 --> 01:16:19,039 and you're not thinking about it and you're just you're just doing a walls and 1004 01:16:19,079 --> 01:16:23,239 you're not thinking about where you're putting your feet and you kind of enter into 1005 01:16:23,279 --> 01:16:28,560 that rhythm and to what extent, like you said it, it transports us 1006 01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,079 into something that is beyond us. You know. That is when we can 1007 01:16:31,239 --> 01:16:38,319 kind of understand the power of poetry, its relationship to something like liturgy in 1008 01:16:38,359 --> 01:16:42,199 the strict Christian sense, but also liturgy in the broader sense, which is 1009 01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,880 these patterns, whether it is family meals, whether it is you know, 1010 01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:48,199 even the simple patterns of how you organize your day and how you kind of 1011 01:16:48,199 --> 01:16:55,079 set things up, that these are that all of this is connected to how 1012 01:16:55,159 --> 01:17:00,239 humans find meaning. You know, it's very powerful. Definitely wow, And 1013 01:17:00,279 --> 01:17:03,920 so thanks Stephen. I would say everybody, if there's someone here now that 1014 01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:08,800 hasn't read The Consolation of Philosophy and you you're not going to read it like 1015 01:17:09,079 --> 01:17:12,439 you're a hopeless person at this point, Like it is an astounding text, 1016 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,880 one of the foundational texts of Western civilization. And also check out Stephen's book. 1017 01:17:18,079 --> 01:17:25,880 It's called The Consolation of Buetheists as Poetic Liturgy. It's very it's a 1018 01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:30,039 it's a technical book, but the argument is very powerful and it's worth looking 1019 01:17:30,079 --> 01:17:33,279 into especially if you're interested in the question of patterns and how patterns affect us 1020 01:17:33,319 --> 01:17:36,199 today. And so Stephen, thanks for everything you do. You know, 1021 01:17:36,279 --> 01:17:41,800 everybody who who doesn't know about Ralson College, it is worth looking into Ralson 1022 01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,680 College. It is a seed of hope in this time. I was able 1023 01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:50,800 to participate in a trip with Stephen and some of the people around Rosson College. 1024 01:17:51,319 --> 01:17:56,880 Was astounded at what it is it is possible to do today and it 1025 01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,920 does give us hope in a moment where we feel like everything's breaking down. 1026 01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,079 Thanks for what you're doing, Steven, It's truly appreciated. Well, thank 1027 01:18:03,119 --> 01:18:08,600 you, Jonathan. It's a great privilege to have this conversation, to be 1028 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:13,800 in your podcast, your your friendship has been a great gift to me. 1029 01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:20,640 I'll only say in conclusion that to those who haven't read Bellithius, just remember 1030 01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:29,640 that if you're ever in a really difficult circumstance that that book is there is 1031 01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:33,000 there for you. I once a friend of mine. I was once met 1032 01:18:33,039 --> 01:18:36,039 a friend of mine at a meeting. It was a board meeting in Boston, 1033 01:18:36,079 --> 01:18:41,039 and she had had cancer and I thought it had gone away, but 1034 01:18:41,239 --> 01:18:46,640 it had come back, and it was very sad. Anyway, I didn't 1035 01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,600 know what to do, and I went into the bookstore, and there was 1036 01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:53,720 a bookstore there, and I bought her. I think, I just have 1037 01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:57,800 to give this woman a copy of Beliethius. And she wrote to me a 1038 01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,479 few weeks later saying that your words had never been so meaningful to her. 1039 01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:06,720 And so I say that because it might be that this is a book that 1040 01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:13,399 can in a time that you really needed you can turn to it. Yeah, 1041 01:19:14,039 --> 01:19:15,920 all right, thanks Steven, and we'll talk soon as well. We'll 1042 01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:23,640 see each other possibly for the second part of our team of Bible interpreters. 1043 01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:26,800 We're hoping to see that happen. For those who are hoping that that will, 1044 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:29,520 it seems like it might, so that'd be wonderful. Thank you, 1045 01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,199 Jonathan. It's a real pleasure. Bye for now. Thanks. I want 1046 01:19:32,239 --> 01:19:36,359 to invite you all to the very first Symbolic World Summit. Over three days, 1047 01:19:36,359 --> 01:19:41,000 we will finally meet in real time, in real space, and everyone 1048 01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:44,880 from this little corner of the Internet will be there to explore the theme of 1049 01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,920 reclaiming the cosmic image. Of course I will be speaking, but there will 1050 01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:53,079 also be Martin Shaw, who is an amazing mythographer. Father Stephen De Young 1051 01:19:53,199 --> 01:19:57,960 of Lord of Spirit Fame. There will be Richard Rowland from the Universal History 1052 01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,199 series, Vesper Stamper, Nicholas Kotar, and Neil De Gray that you've all 1053 01:20:01,239 --> 01:20:06,720 seen on my channel here and there for entertainment, we have everyone's favorite apocalyptic 1054 01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:11,920 band, the One and Only Dirt Poor Robbins. This event will be the 1055 01:20:12,039 --> 01:20:15,880 chance of a lifetime to capture and embrace our current moment, so join us 1056 01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:21,039 from February twenty ninth to March second, twenty twenty four in Tarbinspings, Florida. 1057 01:20:21,239 --> 01:20:27,079 Visit the Symbolic World dot com slash summit for more information and I will 1058 01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:30,399 see you there. So they much pen going