WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.720 Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Ruby Rogues podcast. 2 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:11.839 This week, on our panel, we have Andrew Mason, Good morning, 3 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:17.160 Nate Hawkins, Hello, Hello, Dave Kimira. Hi everyone. I'm Charles 4 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.519 Maxwood from duv Chat dot TV. And this week we have a special guest, 5 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:23.760 and that's Olivier Lacart. Hello. Now, do you want to just 6 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.559 remind people who you are? We haven't had John for a while. That's 7 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.920 true. So I am a French person. I originally come from Paris, 8 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:32.640 France. I moved to the US when I was I don't know, in 9 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:36.600 my twenties to learn more about how to make websites and eventually ended up at 10 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:42.399 Code School, where I've made websites and then basically I have been running and 11 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:45.560 maintaining Quotes School for years until it was acquired by Plural Site, where I 12 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:51.159 work now doing interactive education stuff for people who like to learn web things. 13 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:57.880 Nice and we had some discussion before the call, but yeah, Plural Sites 14 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:03.240 a local company at least to me in Utah, and it was interesting when 15 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.040 it got acquired, yeah, just to see where they would go with it. 16 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.400 And it sounds like just from talking to you as a little bit of 17 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.000 setup and then you can dive us into this. Is that the kind of 18 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.760 sunset of code school itself. It sounds like they're still doing the content, 19 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:21.040 but they're not using the platform anymore. Do you want to just give us 20 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:23.560 a rundown of our topic here? It's the life and death of the rails 21 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:29.879 app. Yeah, so essentially it's kind of talking about the whole spectrum of 22 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.000 when you create a rails app, or any app. Really, when you 23 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.079 get excited about a technology, say you're playing with an elixir or any other 24 00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:40.040 technology like that, and you start building it. The excite, the initial 25 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:44.519 excitement and all the kind of like oooh dependency shelf, like picking all the 26 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.319 things in the candy jars and everything, and then when it starts actually getting 27 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:53.280 customers, and when it starts getting traction and scaling issues and people scaling issues, 28 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:59.359 and eventually either you're successful or you're not successful. If you happen to 29 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.599 be successful, well, either you stay independent or you get acquired. And 30 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.799 where you get acquired, there's a lot of things you think are going to 31 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.479 be simpler, and of course they're not. And either you stick around as 32 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:13.280 kind of like a part of the thing that acquired you as an app, 33 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:17.960 you integrate, which is a whole, a whole technical you know minefield, 34 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.120 or you just become completely ingested in a new thing, which is eventually what 35 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.759 happened to us. I think it took two years. So there's just so 36 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.719 many people things and technical things that can be discussed, but most mostly it's 37 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.680 just like this idea that we we always plan for the wrong things. We're 38 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:39.120 always like expecting like the web scale is going to be the problem, or 39 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:45.159 that you know, anything that's not actually the real problem, which is usually 40 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:50.479 people problem, and just like the churn and the technical debt and things like 41 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:53.879 that, and then also the end of it, like you just never plan 42 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.400 for that. And for user privacy, for instance, there's a lot of 43 00:02:55.439 --> 00:03:00.080 problems, especially recently with GPR, where when you close an app or you've 44 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:06.960 closed a company, you have this treasure chest of privacy data that you're supposed 45 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.400 to do things with now and it used to be much simpler, just like 46 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:14.039 sell it to someone if you're not moral. If you're moral, you try 47 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:16.199 to safeguard it and put it somewhere safe. But if you get hacked, 48 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:21.039 what happens. You know a lot of data breaches happen like that because people 49 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.080 put stuff away and forgot to lock it nicely. So yeah, lots of 50 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:29.080 stuff like that. Interesting. A few other ways that I've seen this play 51 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.879 out too, are I mean, like Twitter when they switched over to Skala, 52 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:36.240 moved a lot of stuff off of Rails, you know, for different 53 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.039 performance and scalability issues, and so that was kind of a rewrite. I've 54 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:45.000 seen companies kind of peel pieces off because it's cheaper to run it in the 55 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:49.400 cloud in different ways. So there are a lot of different things that people 56 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.719 are concerned with. And I think also just to your point, when we 57 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:54.240 get started with a Ruby on Rails app, I think a lot of times 58 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:59.240 we don't think ahead just to the fact that eventually the current version of Rails 59 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:02.560 is going to become ob right, and so sooner than later, right, 60 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.919 and so all of a sudden, you know, we've we've got to update 61 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.479 it one way or the other. And so I've I've talked to a bunch 62 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:13.080 of companies where they didn't plan for, oh, we've got to upgrade to 63 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.879 Rails four, and then all of a sudden they've got a Rails three app. 64 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.240 They've got to upgrade to Rails five, and so they've got to upgrade 65 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:23.319 and then upgrade again and then update all the gems and so yeah, this 66 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:27.240 planning theme turns out to be a nightmare in some ways. But at the 67 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:30.839 same time, I wonder, is there is there really a good way to 68 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.720 plan ahead for the things that are going to die off in your app, 69 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:38.160 or for your app to die off. It's tricky. I don't know if 70 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.920 anybody had an opinion. For us, it was really tricky to plan ahead 71 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.680 because every time we predicted, as programmers were so bad at predicting everything. 72 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.279 We make estimates that are completely lies, and we know it, and we 73 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:54.879 try to make them better lies, but not like truth. That's super hard. 74 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.920 So I think that for like you get an example of, like upgrading 75 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:03.199 dependencies. Let me tell you how Code School, the course runner app that 76 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:08.800 had interactive like courses released every month, worked every month. We would make 77 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:12.079 a new Rails app that was the course. We would skin it, have 78 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:16.120 our front end team design HTMLCSS, JavaScript, everything for that app. If 79 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.519 there was improvements to the way that we were handling for like server side front 80 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:25.120 end stuff, we would make those improvements in the app, at least at 81 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:29.480 first and then we would release a whole new app that was independent talk to 82 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.800 the you know main web server like domain code school, dot com server with 83 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.480 ooth and APIs and synchronous messaging and stuff like that, which means that within 84 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:44.399 a few months of being operating as a subscription based company, we had twenty 85 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:49.680 or so Rails apps with different versions. Some of them were still happy about 86 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:55.800 that. Beta versions of Rails that were running completely different, like security version, 87 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.759 like you know, patch versions, or even minor versions of a Ruby 88 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.360 and Rails. So it's just like those are the kinds of things that you 89 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:08.319 can't necessarily plan for a lot of other things, but the kind of decisions 90 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:14.480 where moving fast and breaking things kind of mindsets quickly quickly you can see if 91 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:18.040 you look around the feel and kind of take a breather for a second, 92 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.319 you can see, oh crap, this is not going to work, Like 93 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:26.759 within a few months. Reassessing is kind of like this thing of like, 94 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:32.399 yeah, the speed of iteration quickly becomes We're basically to me, it's like 95 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.399 putting everything on a credit card. That's exactly how I picture it. Like 96 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.199 doing this kind of stuff is like, oh, you have a seventeen or 97 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.279 eighteen percent interest rate, and it's cool because you have this twenty thousand dollars 98 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.759 credit limit, but that's going to run out real quick. So yeah, 99 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.240 I don't know. Planning is hard. Get Up kind of has a similar 100 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:55.079 story where they forked rails and kind of had a custom flavor of it for 101 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.519 several years and then finally have just got back onto the main line of Rails 102 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.560 release, which is cool because now they can contribute back to the framework. 103 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:10.600 Right, And that's actually Eileen, Eileen, you should tell and Ann Patterson 104 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.199 working on that a bunch and they gave a talk or she gave a talk 105 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:18.319 at res coff for Ruby CLF or I think it right, and that talk 106 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:24.279 tells you everything. Right, it's just three sporadically with you know, patchy 107 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:29.639 involvement from a bunch of different people. It's essentially a three year effort two 108 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:34.079 or even more sometimes just to get back to you're not that special, right, 109 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.800 and you can contribute back. And I think that's the situation that we 110 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.800 find a lot of ourselves in. It's you know, we read a blog 111 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.879 article where we see something new and cool and we're like, hey, I 112 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:49.600 could use that in my application, and so now you have your standard, 113 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:54.279 you know, very close to the rail's core application. Now you're diverging a 114 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:58.680 bit, whether it's adding in a gym or a client side framework, or 115 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:03.120 some other kind of infrastructure or architecture like micro services or lend of functions. 116 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.600 You start branching out or in your case, creating a separate app for each 117 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:15.199 instance or product that you're doing, and it's going to complicate everything. Maybe 118 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.519 not today. Maybe today you said a few hours, but you're gonna end 119 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.959 up costing yourself many many more hours in the long run. And I think 120 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:28.639 that's where technical debt can eventually cause an application to die if you're not maintaining 121 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:35.039 it, if you diverge so much that now the application is almost unmaintainable because 122 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:41.080 it's such a mess. Now those original people who implemented those ideas are gone. 123 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.399 Now you have a new group of people coming in and they have like 124 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.279 very little idea of its architecture. Where if you sit to the rail's corel 125 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:54.120 in something, then you're going to be able to bring in any rails developer, 126 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.960 no matter who it is, and then they're gonna be able to look 127 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.879 at the application, look at your gym file, look at your routes, 128 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.159 look at you know, some of the other things that you have going on, 129 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.080 and they're going to be able to get to production or you know, 130 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:11.480 start coutting on it really quickly. And so I've made this mistake many times 131 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.159 where I thought that, oh, I have this very special use case and 132 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.200 so I tried doing something and it always comes back to bite me. So 133 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.679 recently, in the past year, I've been on this real kick where it's 134 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:31.200 a question more or less is your Rails application maintainable? And I think that 135 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.600 if you can confidently say yes, then you're going to be able to easily 136 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.360 just bump the Rails version to a bundle update on your application, run your 137 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.519 tests, go to Rails diff and then see the differences between the configuration files 138 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.759 from your current Rails application version and the new one, and then everything is 139 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.120 just going to work. Updating Rails should not be a hard process. We 140 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.600 make it hard through the decisions that we've made over time. Yeah, And 141 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:03.399 it's all so like when you're in the initial startup phase, it's very tricky 142 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.559 because you're any longer than fifteen minute problem solve feels like you're spending so much 143 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.480 money that you don't have and that's the infancy stage, which is very like 144 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.360 you think. It's like you're predator and you're trying to find something to eat 145 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.279 because you're going to die of starvation. It seems very dire, so you 146 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.360 make really really bad I mean, it's that there's a similar problem with the 147 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.279 poverty in general. It's just like when you're impoverished or you're hungry, your 148 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:33.919 brain doesn't have the same capacity to make like long, longer terms, safer, 149 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:37.840 stable decisions. It's not because you're stupid, it's because it's you're in 150 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:39.960 a bad setup. In context, we had the same the prime with people 151 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:45.399 like you just mentioned people coming in. We had people coming out because startups, 152 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:50.600 by very nature just people leave all the time because they usually people who 153 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:52.720 start things are not great at finishing them. It's kind of sound like a 154 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.159 slight dig, but that's just a natural thing. A lot of people are 155 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.879 like, ooh, super exciting and I have tons of energy at the beginning. 156 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:03.360 They don't really like the slog of maintaining things. And as you said, 157 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:05.480 if they customize everything, if they fork a bunch of gems, if 158 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.279 they do all that stuff, then it's a nightmare. But it seems like 159 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.960 it makes sense during the time. And there's moments during the Ruby and Rails 160 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.960 development cycles where or you're in any gem cycle or you're like, oh god, 161 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.519 this is not moving, like it's not they're not doing what I want. 162 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.399 So I want them to upgrade. I want them to deprecate this other 163 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.279 thing. I don't want them to use jiquary anymore. And you're like, 164 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.600 oh, I just fork it, because literally fork it. I don't want 165 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.440 to deal with this, and that's the moment that it's hard. Like what 166 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.960 you just said is very wise. But during these phases, these kind of 167 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:45.440 like desert crossings are like the slow slumps in development of Rails or Ruby or 168 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.960 anything, You're like, h screw it, I'll just fork it. Yeah, 169 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.799 everybody that starts a project and experiences that pain and making some of those 170 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.759 rash decisions should be forced to stay at a company long enough to deal with 171 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:09.200 them. Oh hi, I wish, And you know, you know, 172 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.720 I know I've said this a few times, but I think my experience in 173 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:18.840 rails projects specifically is rather unique because I'm going to hit my tenure anniversary with 174 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:24.240 the same job next month, and so I've had to live through all of 175 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:30.759 the horrible decisions that I've made, and then looking back at those decisions, 176 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.159 I'm like, wow, I cannot believe this idiot implemented something this way, 177 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.480 Like who the hell would decide to store images in the database? Why did 178 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.720 you think that was a good idea? And you know, at the time, 179 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:46.360 it was because like, well, we have multiple web servers, so 180 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.519 they need to be able to all hit the same images. And then you 181 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:52.919 know, like, well, why don't you just use something like as three 182 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.200 or some cloud storage, Like, well, that's going to be so many 183 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.879 hoops I have to jump through because my bosses are going to you know, 184 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.440 require a vendor relationship and this kind of thing. So I'm like, the 185 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:07.960 image is only ten kilobytes each, that's not a big deal. Just throw 186 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:13.320 them in the database. Well, seven years later, that database table is 187 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.159 over thirty gigabytes and it just has a user idea and to image. There's 188 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.919 nothing much in there, but it just got really utilized. So now it's 189 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:24.600 like, crap, what do we do now? We had to convert all 190 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:31.080 these base sixty fours back into a jpegger AP and G and then upload that 191 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.679 to S three and then create some tie back into the rails at So it's 192 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.480 a mess, but at the time it was a decision because I was too 193 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:43.279 lazy to go to management and request access to this resource to do it properly. 194 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.320 So it made sense at the time. Right, even if you like 195 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.960 slap on yourself, like back in the back in time and you travel, 196 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.720 it's just like, oh, that makes sense back in time. This is 197 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:56.480 why like, commits are a big deal to me, and the reason why 198 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:00.879 I think anybody with long tenure values commits so heavily is that whenever someone leaves 199 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:03.240 and at least you have a commit, you can be like, Okay, 200 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.279 well I hate you, but at least I understand why you did this, 201 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.039 and it's you, which means tenure is humbling because quickly, like within a 202 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.039 year, you'll see commits you're like, wow, why is it like that, 203 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.399 And it's you in that thing you just described because you're like, I'm 204 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:20.840 stuck. This is my wall. I have to deal with this thing, 205 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.960 and I'm doing the best with the tools that I have. Yeah, but 206 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.120 it's just one of those examples where I diverged from the best practices route and 207 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.720 it worn't the time, and it was great, and it was because it 208 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.039 was a business need, or at least I justified it as a business need. 209 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.360 And then many years down the road, it's like, Okay, it's 210 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.240 just gonna be easier to rewrite this application, or it's gonna be easier to 211 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.960 do you know something else than to have to continue to maintain this thing because 212 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.919 it was not maintainable. It didn't fit into this little paradigm of you know, 213 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.679 be able to just run bundle update, run your tests, and then 214 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:03.279 do rail stiff to see the changes. Now I over complicated its architecture through 215 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:09.879 poor decision. So I'd like to fold this kind of technical story back into 216 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.320 the narrative that all of her started with with Code School of being acquired, 217 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.840 and it sounds like you maybe had some of these architectural some of this architectural 218 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:26.080 complexity baked into Code School. What was the team dynamical life. So at 219 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.080 the time of the acquisition, we had my favorite team I've ever had, 220 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.960 Like it was the best structure of a team I think I've ever had. 221 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.639 The time had its team non computer scientists, and then the two women, 222 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:43.600 one of them was a PhD candidate in physics who had dropped out for because 223 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:48.879 it was driving her crazy that she couldn't get results like she wanted feedback, 224 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:52.240 which sounds like a programmer problem. And then the other kid, Delphin, 225 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.960 who's not kid, have actually it's just like this magic like context monster, 226 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.000 who just like absorbed contest, is a great team lead. Basically she had 227 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.120 had the computer science knowledge and everything, but more importantly, she was very 228 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:07.679 good at like five steps ahead thinking like you, we're going to do this, 229 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.440 We're going to do that, And so we had managed to build a 230 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:15.639 system that was despite the fact that, yeah, we had limitations because I 231 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:22.919 think that and the things Dave talked about where we at the time vaguely remembering 232 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.799 but we had like roughly three to five million users, not constantly, and 233 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.080 then subscribers. I vaguely remember those numbers, but I think we're like twenty 234 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.919 thousand, like paid subscribers or something like that. So it wasn't gigantic, 235 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.000 but it you know, there's a lot of things to do and often not 236 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.200 enough time to do them, so we had to like cut and prioritize, 237 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.759 and someone had to roll into marketing development. Occasionally, a bunch of people 238 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.639 are doing billing work, a bunch of people are doing innovation work. And 239 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.039 then someone like me had to be doing technical dead stuff. So Ruby upgrades 240 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:59.960 long running, Rails upgrades long running everything before both Gymnasium and which doesn't exist, 241 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.960 Amurba has been rolled into get lab and depend about existed, which makes 242 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.839 it way easier to deal with these things because as I don't know if it 243 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.839 was Dave that mentioned that, it's just like constantly be upgrading was a thing 244 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.359 that I was somehow to think that a human was doing this. It just 245 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.559 sounds like such a waste of time. All these prs that are opened by 246 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:23.680 DependaBot to update your dependencies are just like magical so much so, Yeah, 247 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.680 that was the dynamic at the time. You got to cut yourself some slack. 248 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.599 I mean, with a team of four with twenty thousand paying subscribers and 249 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:37.279 moving like managing the entire business, It's it's easy to see why some poor 250 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:41.079 decisions might get made. Right. Yes, absolutely. Also, this is 251 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.519 the kicker that I didn't mention is that originally Quotes School built its own billing 252 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.960 system. It wasn't quot schools Enny Lab, so I blame them, but 253 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.319 they're they're nice people. They just planned to reuse it with customers and they 254 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:56.400 never did, I think, and so we had to maintain and move off 255 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:03.319 of that to a semi stripe has Stripe subscription now where it manages the whole 256 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.480 life cycle stuff, but it didn't do that before, so we had to 257 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.240 still build that like everyone else and migrate everything. And I think that was 258 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.400 the year we got acquired, was the year we did that. So we 259 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.400 did all that work and then we got acquired, and of course the people 260 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.559 who acquired us were like, oh, we have this other subscription vendor. 261 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:26.039 Yeah, I'm curious kind of the specifics to the acquisition in terms of what 262 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.319 the intent was, what you thought was going to happen, versus what actually 263 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:37.880 happened. I think I'm speaking for founders and leadership in that sense. I 264 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:44.759 think for every SaaS software service company or even content educational company, there's always 265 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.000 that fear that there's always the driving fear, which is you don't have enough 266 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.640 content people stick around to drive up the lifetime value of a customer. So 267 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:56.400 I think our LCV was around I vaguely remember, so there's probably wrong, 268 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:02.319 but I think eighty dollars. So it's like it's really hard to deal with 269 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.480 those facts when you see them they're terrifying. This is the data you gather 270 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.039 makes you fear of death is not just vague. It's like you have numbers 271 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:15.680 for each of those things. You know that if in a month more people 272 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:21.640 cancel than the previous month, and that trend changes in any significant way, 273 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.440 you know that in six months, paar Roll's going to black out like it's 274 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:29.359 it, you know, there's it's really. And then for people who love 275 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.799 what they do and have a team that's fairly like well adjusted and there's not 276 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.400 too much drama, and it's it's it's fairly you know, a healthy job. 277 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.720 It's terrifying to see people that you consider even like good friends or acquaintances 278 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:47.920 that you like, to see them in the bullseye of that reality. So 279 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.319 I think that when the markets started getting bigger and bigger, and people are 280 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.200 getting acquired left and right and things like that, you kind of see like 281 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:57.640 small producers like peep Coode and other people were acquired by Bipolar Site, others 282 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:02.920 were acquired by other companies like that. You could see that consolidation happening in 283 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:07.599 that like tech learning sphere. You're thinking, I think the thinking becomes like, 284 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.279 well, either we're going to get bought out by someone, or they're 285 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:17.079 going to drown us out by producing more content pouring more money in it. 286 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.839 We were kind of in the high quality, compelling interactive content sphere, which 287 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.160 few people competed in. But they had more marketing, they had more everything, 288 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:29.519 They were louder, so we could get drowned out. I think was 289 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.160 the fear, and I think the acquisition came after talking to several suitors more 290 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:37.279 as okay, well we kind of fit in because they don't do that, 291 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.440 right, they don't do interactive stuff plural siden is very much like video training, 292 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.599 at least for many years, it's acquired and rolled into its service multiple 293 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.319 kind of like training mentoring services and things like that. There are more tailor 294 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.240 made stuff and enterprise specific stuff, but at the time it was similar to 295 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.359 the other offerings out there, and it was also kind of restricted to a 296 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:03.319 subset of the technology space, which is Microsoft focused, and we were doing 297 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.559 Ruby Node, you know, a bunch of other exciting hot technologies and front 298 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.480 end stuff and things like that. So I think they saw us as kind 299 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:14.279 of like a differentiating factor, and for a while they used us as a 300 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.920 kind of like a premium offering enterprise companies would would get that on top and 301 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.480 a little cherry on top with code school. And originally there's no plans. 302 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.680 And this is the thing where a lot of people think like, oh, 303 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.559 they said it would stare around, but it didn't. Most companies, they 304 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.799 get acquired, it's hard to integrate, so they'd rather have it as a 305 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.880 separate service, like at least for whoever's manager or leadership at the time. 306 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:38.839 I'm like, oh god, no, we don't want to do that. 307 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:42.599 So hard to do migrations. I spent six months of my life doing a 308 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:47.799 customer migration with like stripe and stuff like that. It was it was horrible. 309 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:49.720 Even if it's complicated to have two stacks or something like that, which 310 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.519 is tricky, they'd rather keep it around and see what happens. The problem 311 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:59.319 is everything shifts when you get acquired all of the That's the thing I tried 312 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.240 to talk about in and the talk is that the things that you were scared 313 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.160 of are not there anymore, and then you're scared of different things. So 314 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:08.640 instead of running out of money, which was the driving fear, you start 315 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:15.599 fearing, oh, we don't know this leadership. And if the leadership changes 316 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:21.480 the agreements we've made with the previous leadership, there'seral guarantee and also like what 317 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.000 like holding ourselves accountable. When your startup and you're starved for you know, 318 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:32.000 sustainability, you make decisions that are more short term and you're and when you're 319 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.200 suddenly allowed to make more longer term decisions, you get kind of cocky, 320 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:38.000 Like you start doing things like, oh, we're gonna merge our engineering teams, 321 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.480 or we're gonna because I don't know, let's try that, and we're 322 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:45.440 gonna produce twice the amount of courses, even though we're about you know, 323 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.640 kind of deep content and compelling content. We took a long time with every 324 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.160 topic. We took like a month to make every course. We spent lots 325 00:22:53.160 --> 00:23:00.920 of money making very very like compact and dense and uh like you know, 326 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.400 something that can kick start you very very quickly, not long, you know, 327 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.640 ten hour courses that you have to watch through. So we started kind 328 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.920 of trying things and many of those things didn't work, and I kind of 329 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.599 lost momentum. And then it started making more sense for us to just be 330 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.799 integrated into the ecosystem more to you know, through the years, and this 331 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.880 is what happens to a lot of acquisitions where you lose the momentum because all 332 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:30.039 of the parameters change even if you even if you say nothing will change. 333 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.160 We have assurances, leaderships loves what we do, and there I think when 334 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:37.920 we were required, that's the last thing I'll say. I think there were 335 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:44.960 a handful like dozens of developer at Plorocyite, and we had our engineering team 336 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.759 was like at least twice or three times the size of their juring team because 337 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.200 they produced video content stuff, so they had they had no complicated, you 338 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.680 know, evaluation of code stuff to deal with. And also they were like 339 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:00.240 heavily focused on enterprise stuff, so they did a lot more stuff there, 340 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.359 says Loan. Yeah. And so that actually kind of gets into like some 341 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:11.079 of our conversation before podcasts started, which is how you plan for this stuff? 342 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:15.880 Because you had mentioned that that oftentimes we don't think about what it means 343 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:22.279 to shut down a product, even if it's just an internal app. Right, 344 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:25.319 But a lot of the stuff, it's, like you said, you 345 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:26.759 can't foresee it, so how do you plan for it? To me, 346 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:33.079 the great thing to do is to think about the things you don't need right 347 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.559 now. A lot of us, a lot of developers, programmers and web 348 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.440 developers or kind of hoarders, like we like to have all the logs, 349 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:47.720 we like to have just in case we're going to have this extra thing. 350 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.079 Some of us are not like that. But thankfully, Yeah, there's a 351 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:56.200 few different people. But the perfect exempt that I use in the talk that 352 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.519 I gave a boys device very useful tool gets you started super fast. You 353 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.799 have user authentication registration confirmation. If you use it, you should use it. 354 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.880 When you get acquired and you have not confirmed any of the emails you 355 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.920 have in your database, that sucks. But there's a module in device that 356 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.839 for a very long time was included by default called trackable. What trackable does 357 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:22.400 is log the IP address of the person who signs in with that user account, 358 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.799 the last IP address, the current IP address when they signed in, 359 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:29.880 when the last time they signed in was, and then often people tack on 360 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:36.000 what was the GUIP resolution of that, what was the country associated with the 361 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.319 IP that this person came from. That is I mean, for still to 362 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:45.920 this day, I think it's not considered PII personally identifiable information by the US 363 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.279 government or the US entities. When it comes to that, but in Europe 364 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.039 it is so your i P is a piece of private information because you can 365 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:56.799 determine a lot of things based on someone's IP, their email address and everything 366 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.720 you can. You can take that metadata and make a very interesting story of 367 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:03.200 where they were, when, why, and all that stuff. And so 368 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.160 when I gave the talk, I think it was in April twenty eighteen, 369 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.920 yeah, device had a little no mention of GDPR, which is the European 370 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:18.200 Privacy regulation stuff that came into effect literally the day quotes school shutdown, which 371 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.359 kind of tells you a little bit. And I found out just doing research 372 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.880 before this call. That device four point five point zero was released on August 373 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:32.519 fifteen, twenty eighteen, and removed trackable as a default module, which is 374 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:37.480 great because unless you have a very very good reason to have the IP address 375 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.119 of the person who signed in for your service, because you're doing I don't 376 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.039 know, you're having like massive fraud sign ups or stuff like that, or 377 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:48.559 people are hammering like dedossing your service, you should not be holding this data. 378 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.720 And this is one of those things where which is you can do a 379 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.799 review right now the things you're using. I have a quick other example one 380 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:00.720 of our founders saw the Obama campaign did this really smart. When people were 381 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:04.200 signed up for donations and they were failing to sign up or they were failing 382 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.200 to sign in, there was patterns to how they failed to sign in, 383 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:18.079 So they would save any failed sign in attempt form submissions or failed registration attempt 384 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:22.720 form submissions I might be misremembering, and they would later just run some data 385 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:25.160 against that and figure out, okay, what are the patterns of people who 386 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.160 failed to sign in or fail to sign up, And then they would just 387 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.279 analyze that data and then oh, okay, we'll put some JavaScript in there 388 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.920 and say like, no, you meant Gmail, not gimial. And that 389 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.039 way you get a proper sign up because the email actually is the correct email, 390 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.920 and you know, there's a there's a few different end things that allow 391 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.880 you to do that. We did that, and we forgot about it because 392 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.240 the person who set it up just left the company. And so I found 393 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.799 a database table that had oh, I don't even know, one hundred and 394 00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:57.599 fifty million rows of signing attempts with some PII, some of it that I 395 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:02.079 didn't want to have. And it was a quick conversation with a team lead 396 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:03.799 Thomas meeks. I think I remember saying like, do you know about this? 397 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.759 Why do we do this? Have we ever used it? Nope? 398 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.640 Nope, nope. Can I get rid of it? Truncate by cool awesome. 399 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:14.640 I don't have to deal with it. I'm not responsible for it. 400 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.319 Essentially, It's just it's just like it's not not my job. It's more 401 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:19.920 like, I do not want to be liable for this stuff. And I 402 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:26.039 think if more people who build ups thought of liability as a vector of concern, 403 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.519 they'd be be a little bit more thrifty with the stuff that they gather. 404 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.599 Yeah, the default module and device is I mean, you just slapped 405 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:38.559 gems in and who knows sometimes what they're doing, right, Yeah, exactly. 406 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:44.480 Yeah, And then there's also sometimes where you know, if you need 407 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.880 to store the personal information. There are some justifications for it, especially if 408 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.519 you're taking in payments from people where I've been in a situation on Drift and 409 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:59.920 Ruby where someone has disputed a charge, and that's not cheap, you know, 410 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.599 especially if I'm only charging fifteen dollars a month. The charge that Strip 411 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:10.079 charges me is fifteen dollars plus that fee that gets returned, So I mean 412 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:14.480 that's almost a two times hit and if I'm able to provide that Okay, 413 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.920 this is the IP address that this person use on the credit card to sign 414 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.920 up at and then here I have records where they have downloaded this video, 415 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.319 this video in this video with the say my p address. Now I have 416 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:34.599 a more legitimate case to defend myself on that charge back. But it's something 417 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:38.880 that you have to be careful on because you know what is these setul limitations 418 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.279 for a charge back? You know, if a thirty day window passes, 419 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.200 then that data that's thirty one days old? Do I need to keep it? 420 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:49.880 You know? Or can I truncate it? And so I put in 421 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:56.400 a psychic crown job that will basically go through and it'll remove all that historical 422 00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.759 data that I don't no longer need. There you go, that's exactly the 423 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.039 kind of stuff that we rarely think we have time to do this when we're 424 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:10.079 building a business, and then really it's not that much work to clean up 425 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.440 after ourselves. It's actually far easier to do it iteratively, like you're saying, 426 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.119 in a crown job than at the very end when you realize, oh 427 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:18.960 crap, I have all this data, and when a user cancels. For 428 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.359 instance, for us before the migration, we told people, Hey, we're 429 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.279 going to migrate. You're going to get a pluor side account unless you don't 430 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.680 want one. If you want to just wipe your data to send us a 431 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.279 little request in this thing and you will. We will delete everything that you 432 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:40.000 have to be able to guarantee that, and GDPR enforcement can come after you 433 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.039 and say, prove to us that you've deleted all that data, which and 434 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.960 you can take it out of the database, but still have logs backups, 435 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.720 backups and your log files and backups of the logs. It's a nightmare. 436 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.279 That's why I think having a very good reason like Dave mentioned is great. 437 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:00.720 It's better to have the problem first and then and then put it into place, 438 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.599 rather than assume, oh, what if we get that problem, it's 439 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:08.039 kind of turning on all the features. So I think a little harder before 440 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:15.039 you just throw in soft delete to your application. God, this is a 441 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:19.960 very relevant to my life. Yeah, And you know, I think Nate 442 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:26.960 paranoia, which is a really cool gym for doing a soft delete that's really 443 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:32.799 useful in certain situations where someone performs something very destructive that they didn't mean to 444 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.960 you know, there's you know, no matter how many times you give someone 445 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.160 the opportunity to warn them, like, hey, what you're doing is very 446 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:47.559 destructive. Once it's done, the data's gone. There's always a case where 447 00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.079 someone clicked through all those yes's and checkboxes and type in their password to confirm 448 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:55.519 and then like, oops, I didn't mean to do that, or I 449 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.880 didn't know what it was going to do, and then it's like you want 450 00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:04.200 to service the customer, but then you also want to service your customers privacies 451 00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:08.319 on the other hand. So it's a tricky situation that you get yourself into. 452 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:14.920 So in a lot of situations where I will have a feature like that, 453 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.400 there's a warning that or a disclaimer that, Okay, we are able 454 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.119 to retrieve the data, most of it, certain data aspects of it is 455 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.440 completely lost. And in this specific case, it would be all of the 456 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:36.920 metadata about the user's PII information or their PII so any kind of last signed 457 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.000 in signing counts, IP addresses, all that data would just get scrubbed from 458 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.960 the database. But the user accounts you could get back otherwise after thirty days. 459 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:51.319 Anything that has a deleted at that's over thirty days old, gets removed 460 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:57.000 or truncated out. I was mentioning this briefly, but I use an alternative 461 00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:01.640 to the paranoia gem called disc card by I think John Hawthorne. Yeah, 462 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:06.160 it also works in GitHub and it's slightly different. It doesn't hook into as 463 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:10.960 many callback cycles. I think it's just like it sets that that table and 464 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.440 it's basically use scopes for everything you need to select if you want to select. 465 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:22.400 And it avoids the kind of the trap of having associations and dependent destroy 466 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.720 stuff kind of become self deleted automatically. It's nice to consider both. I 467 00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:31.519 think the soft deletion sounds super easy, and it's always never easy. It's 468 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:35.440 always like there's always little that need, little thing that you didn't think about. 469 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.519 And also, for instance, like loading, I think we had a 470 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:39.759 problem like that in the app that we work on right now, where yeah, 471 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:45.880 the composite indexes or in disease that we were using were not quite optimized 472 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:52.119 for the deleted at column because we thought we had far more deleted at things 473 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:57.920 and removing that index actually sped things up like crazy things like that. Anyway, 474 00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:01.160 to Dave's point, it's actually kind of funny in a sad state or 475 00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:05.920 commentary on our on our industry and some of our solutions, in the sense 476 00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:12.920 that we're holding onto a lot of this PII information kind of not necessarily trying 477 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:16.079 to be malicious about it. It's just there in logs and in database backups. 478 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:22.599 But when we do accidentally really destroy some records, it proves incredibly difficult 479 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.239 to get them back, even though we have all the backups. And this 480 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.280 actually talks to a mention I think that I remember hearing this so much in 481 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:36.960 the twenty twelve to twenty fourteen era, which was era which was we're not 482 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.000 doctors, so it's fine if we take down the website, you know or 483 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.760 not. You know, we're just teaching people things. It's not like we're 484 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:50.239 like giving them benefits or you know, we're not a financial institution like Square 485 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.480 for instance. And that's a great cop out. It's a great way to 486 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:59.559 not be responsible and adult about like we do affect people. If someone like 487 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.519 took out some time to learn something, or they give us their financial data 488 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.239 or their PII or something like that, it is a responsibility. It's a 489 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:12.119 big deal. And even if we don't call ourselves necessarily engineers as in licensed 490 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.719 trade trades people, engineers. It's a good aspiration to be a little bit 491 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:22.079 more like engineers and doctors than just like diletant, like, oh, we 492 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.760 just make webs We're just web masters. We'll just do do fun things on 493 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:29.880 the side. Yeah, but it takes a convincing argument from like a senior 494 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:35.000 team to get the business to move in that direction. When you're struggling for 495 00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:38.519 survival, right especially in that startup mode, when you're you're really fighting with 496 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.199 with competitors and you don't know if you're going to make peril next month, 497 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.199 it is. It is very hard, and sometimes I think it's good to 498 00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.519 have those fights. Though. That's another thing that back to the constraints in 499 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:54.239 a way, is not having enough money is good in a company, not 500 00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:59.480 having enough time is good. It's a forcing function. You need to be 501 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.199 forced to make those arguments. You need to be forced to have these these 502 00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.559 disagreements with your team where you say I think we should do this, and 503 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.599 the other person says, I think we should do this other thing, and 504 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:15.000 this is why, and that way it fosters a little bit more, especially 505 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.599 when you have a team that's not just the monoculture of a bunch of friends 506 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.039 that hired each other after college because otherwise, yeah, everyone's going to agree. 507 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.639 It's likely that everyone's going to agree when you start getting different people with 508 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:30.039 different backgrounds and everything left field, like here's why you don't take this data. 509 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:36.119 It's great for stalkers. That's that's a point of view that rarely is 510 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.639 seen from white males, for instance, like go all the chickens and four 511 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:44.119 square check ins or things like that, where you if you don't think about 512 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.159 it from the kind of like the bad perspective, kind of like the the 513 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.679 attacker or security researcher perspective, it you do stupid things. Speaking of stupid 514 00:36:52.679 --> 00:37:00.679 things, there's a I think someone mentioned sunset at the beginning sun setting, 515 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:06.920 so that's more like jumping to the end. But the total lack of emotional 516 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.440 honesty behind the words sunset, to me is the thing that I rail about 517 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:16.880 a lot, which is we are ending, killing, removing, destroying this 518 00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:21.239 thing. Right, We're not sunsetting it. There's no like, no one's 519 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:24.960 running on a beach in slow motion with like beautiful like pastel colors and everything. 520 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:28.440 No, it's this thing that you loved and for us, like a 521 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:34.440 perfect example for code school is apparently a ton of schools in Puerto Rico we're 522 00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:38.719 using Code School for education stuff. They were using either free courses because we 523 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:42.760 had a ton of free content, and then a ton of boot camps were 524 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:46.000 using our free content as kind of like inverted classroom things where people would go 525 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:50.079 home do a Code School course, a free one, and then they'd talk 526 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:53.480 about it, and we like, kind of it's not really statue statue a 527 00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:59.000 little limitations, but we when we told people were going to fold Code School 528 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.320 and turn it off, they're kind of like, what I mean, I 529 00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:06.840 need this, I depend on this, Like I am a teacher and I'm 530 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:10.800 teaching these kids with this thing, and being kind of wishy washy about like 531 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:15.360 what we're doing is kind of like a doctor saying like on the on the 532 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.599 bedside, but being like it's not looking good. What do you mean? 533 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:22.840 Like how much time do I have to find another place to do the thing 534 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.079 that I do? And I just say, there's so much of that in 535 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.880 this industry, sadly, and I think that it's fine to say, hey, 536 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:35.519 I'm moved on. Like there's tons of startup founders that are bored within 537 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.760 six months or three years, and they want to move on something else, 538 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.000 And how about we start saying that, Like, I think that's fine emotionally 539 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:44.639 to say I had a ton of fun doing this thing. I mean, 540 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.159 it wasn't necessarily my case with code school, but there's tons of things like 541 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.559 open source projects, for instance, where maintainers are like, oh, they 542 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:53.840 hate they hate the thing that they build, and I don't want to deal 543 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:58.480 with it anymore. They're trying to find maintainers and they don't say in public 544 00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:00.239 the thing that they say, you know, I'm conference hallways, which is 545 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.760 like, I just it stresses me out so much every time I get an 546 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:10.920 issue or something like that. I'm just sundsetting involvement. I'm walking away in 547 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:16.480 the sunset. I think, as you mentioned, Olivia, it's just life. 548 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:21.719 You know, people die, applications die, you know, it's not 549 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.719 a matter of if it's going to happen, when is it going to happen, 550 00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:30.039 And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think how you approach it, 551 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:34.519 no to sunset or kill it off, and how you react to it 552 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:37.039 is where the real difference is going to come into play. You know. 553 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:42.519 For the foreseeable future, I plan to keep doing drifting Ruby as long as 554 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:46.159 I can, but there's going to be a time where time just no longer 555 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:51.159 permits it. Either deny generate enough revenue where I could do it full time, 556 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:52.760 and then my kids are growing. You know, I have a two 557 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.000 year old, four year old, and six year old, so as they 558 00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.840 get older, their time is going to be a lot more end. So 559 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.280 there is eventually going to be end alive. I don't know if that is 560 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:07.719 three years from now or ten years from now, but I think it is 561 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.280 something that I will have to start thinking about. It's like, Okay, 562 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:14.400 once it's done, what am I going to do with all this data? 563 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:20.039 Not only the users, which I would absolutely respect everyone's privacy, but all 564 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.199 the video content that I've created. Now I'm gonna be hitting two hundred episodes 565 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:28.559 this year, and for me, I mean, that's been years and years 566 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.320 of my life that poured into it, and I would hate to see it 567 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:34.599 just kind of die out. But I mean that's going to be the reality 568 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.239 of it. Either the content is going to be stale and old if I'm 569 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:42.360 not maintaining it anymore, or you know, people would have moved on to 570 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:47.880 something else. But it's a real consideration to take it's a heartbreaker when when 571 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:52.679 you've when you've worked so hard to make content and you know that some of 572 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:58.079 it's out of date, but it's it can still be a little bit useful, 573 00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:00.320 especially when it's free. One of the hardest things for me with the 574 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:06.079 shutdown was was try Ruby. So try Ruby was one of my babies, 575 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.119 and it was like, there's that and try get. So I wrote try 576 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:14.719 get with a bunch of people from from code school and GitHub in twenty twelve, 577 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:19.440 and it was this thing that just like was infrastructure. Those like a 578 00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.519 bunch of people which like get started, like see if you hate it or 579 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:24.000 if you're terrified of it, here's a great way to show you that it's 580 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:28.679 not that it's not it's bad, but it's not that bad, and try 581 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.119 reviews. Likewise, like it's just we we didn't spend that much time maintaining 582 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:35.760 it, but it worked, it was useful, and now I'm glad there 583 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:38.639 are alternatives, but at the time it wasn't quite ready, and likewise, 584 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:45.519 I don't think there's there might be a try get alternative, but for Ruby, 585 00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.519 thankfully there's an open source version the front end, like open source version 586 00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.519 that's now available on the try on the ruby lang dot org website. You 587 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:57.639 can get to it. But seeing this resource like this kind of like thing 588 00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.039 that you know, people depend on, this appear we're just that you enjoyed 589 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:05.079 writing and you know that you were proud of is is not that Emotionally, 590 00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.800 it just sucks. It's just very like ugh and yeah, met it's okay, 591 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:15.400 sometimes thinks. So I've been through you know, almost celebrating my ten 592 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:20.840 year tenure, but that ten years, I've been through two company acquisitions. 593 00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.719 So my company got sold and then it got sold again. So and I've 594 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:30.840 stuck around with it for almost ten years through the whole thing, and you 595 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:36.119 know, there has been some of that loss and application that had spent four 596 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:39.400 years working on. As soon as the new company acquired it, they said, 597 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:45.280 day one, all development on new features is going to stop and sales 598 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.440 is going to stop on this It's not a direction we want to go down. 599 00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:54.280 And you know, how I internalize that and my reaction to it is 600 00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:59.519 really going to determine the route I go as a developer. You know, 601 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.840 I could just rage quit the company and go somewhere else where I'm appreciated, 602 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.000 or I could look back and say Where do I put my value? Where 603 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:12.159 do I put my worth? Is it in the thing that I created or 604 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.559 was it the experience that I got over the many years, learning from my 605 00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:20.679 bad decisions, learning how to do something new, And if I can take 606 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:25.920 that away from it, then you reduce your emotional attachment to the actual product, 607 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:31.280 because I'm a better person because of that product. Oh yeah, it's 608 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:37.519 it's It's tricky also because of the kinds of people that tend to work on 609 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.400 these early stage or just like young products. But basically, yeah, older, 610 00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:45.840 older people in the industry tend to have families and kids and you know, 611 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:47.760 things like that. And when I say older, I don't mean like 612 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:52.440 older than twenty, which is a lot of people. And I think that 613 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:57.159 helps make your focus less. Oh my god, this gem that I built 614 00:43:57.280 --> 00:44:00.280 or this you know application is the treasure of my life and my sole contribution 615 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:05.199 to the world. When you have kids or you have a family, it's 616 00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:08.280 easier to move on from that stuff. And I think it's also good to 617 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:12.239 have more people like that in the industry that are just like that, have 618 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:17.960 kids already, that work in apps and create companies as parents, not as 619 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:23.119 single dudes in a bedroom or in a garage, who have no responsibilities other 620 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:28.440 than that and therefore derive every kind of validation from it. I will say 621 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:34.159 I have never lived through the death of a Rayls app because I've been like, 622 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:37.480 I'm so young of a developer. But I had a mentor, and 623 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:42.400 one thing that he taught me that I still find valuable to this day is 624 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.400 that you're gonna work really really hard on something and one day you might have 625 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:51.639 to completely destroy it. And he taught me this like in the worst, 626 00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:53.800 like what I thought to be the worst way possible. Like it hurt at 627 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:58.400 the time, but I'm really glad he did this because over time is really 628 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.760 helped. I worked really long time on this feature. It was very very 629 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.639 very early in my career, and it was not done well at all, 630 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:07.519 but I had worked really hard on it, and the fact that I had 631 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:10.440 gotten into work, I was very proud of it. And I took it 632 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:14.440 to him for code review and he called me up. He's like, look, 633 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.639 he's like, this isn't really this isn't like a good way to do 634 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:20.840 this, and he's like that's when he gained the little spiel that you really 635 00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.039 need to learn that sometimes it's Okay, it's okay to delete the entire thing. 636 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:27.280 He's like, so right now, we're going to delete this entire thing 637 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.239 and start over. It's so hard, though, I mean, I still 638 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:35.360 have that problem even though I'm literally that person. I have destroyed the thing 639 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.920 that I worked on creating for years, for like six seven years, So 640 00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:43.559 still now, like I'm still that person who I see people at conferences delete 641 00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:45.840 code for kicks, like as a demo, and I'm like, but the 642 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:50.960 wait, okay, it's somewhere sash. What if you need it later, 643 00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:52.039 just get stash and I see you. Oh no, no, no, 644 00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:57.199 we don't. We just get stash pop or whatever command you used to delete 645 00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:01.920 the stash, which I don't know. And I'm in awe of the kind 646 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.599 of distance right like, as you said, like they have the maturity of 647 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.000 being like, Okay, my brain did this, My brain can do this 648 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:13.960 again, valuing knowledge that you acquired. It actually kind of reminds me of 649 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:20.599 a college art class I took where early on in the course we had to 650 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:24.159 produce one hundred pieces of original art in a week, and we brought them 651 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:30.000 and turn them in and the instructor then proceeded to rip them all apart in 652 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.760 front of the class and said that destruction is an act of creation. Oh 653 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:39.480 wow, that's a hardcore version of Andrews's lesson. Very much a hardcore version. 654 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:45.039 I didn't know my dad taught art, because that very much seems like 655 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.480 something that my dad has done. When I was young and when I was 656 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:53.400 going off to college, I was writing these cover letters to send off to 657 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:58.960 colleges, saying now here, this is who I am and stuff, and 658 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:00.719 he would look at it and then he would just tear it up and say, 659 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:04.119 good, do it again, no feedback, no pointer, or just 660 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:07.679 tear it up. Or if I was working on some kind of other project 661 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:12.000 or you know, something that I was getting his opinion on, you just 662 00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:15.400 tear it up, said do it again. So either you will learn or 663 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:22.440 you will eventually learn that your projects isn't where you should put your self worth. 664 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:25.159 You should put worth into them, you should care about them, but 665 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:30.400 that's not where your self worth should get derived from. And even if it's 666 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.280 the best thing you've done so far, which it definitely implies to me, 667 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:38.440 you might never do something quite exactly that special, like in the same way, 668 00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:42.559 with the same people and the same that's the hard thing to do with 669 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.840 any kind of project creatively. It's like, ah, there's tons of things 670 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:51.400 I didn't like, but this was so great, But you'll do other things. 671 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.880 And then because you've already done that one saying, you'll infuse a lot 672 00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:58.280 of these other things. And this is the joy that I've taken. This 673 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.239 is the people joy that I've taken away from the end of Code School was 674 00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:07.559 I've nurtured a few people, and a few people have nurtured me, and 675 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:10.599 we're all like kind of like seating each other and pieces of the spirit of 676 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.199 code School and things like plural site, like GitHub actually like other places where 677 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:19.000 so Joel Taylor, who's on my team works at task for It right now, 678 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:23.320 Katie Delphin's at GitHub. Thomas Meeks is doing independent game development now. 679 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:28.400 So it's like there's just tons of awesome things happening with all those people and 680 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.039 it makes me happy. And they're just all around and they always have this 681 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.880 moment where they say, oh, you know, back in the day when 682 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.559 we did it like that at code school, this sucks, but this was 683 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:40.639 awesome, and this is an awesome thing that we did. Often it's about 684 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:45.360 people's stuff and more and more of the code stuff disappears. There's a few 685 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.880 little trickery things that you're like, oh, we had we figured out a 686 00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:52.719 way that was nice to do x ra Y, but it's rarely the code 687 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:54.119 that's like, oh, this was so great, I wish we had saved 688 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:59.679 it now. One of my earliest memories, speaking of code school was Rails 689 00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:05.320 for Zombies with Greg Pollock. That was one of my first introductions to rails 690 00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:07.760 now after doing Ruby for a while and then uh, now, I just 691 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.840 want to give him a little shout out. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, 692 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.880 that's actually how there's my second Rails tutorial. And I did that Rails for 693 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:22.440 Zombies beta in Orlando at the Orlando Ruby Users group, and that's how I 694 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:24.920 think that was six months or a few months into meal learning Rails, when 695 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:30.719 I was still kind of like a front end focus web designer type person and 696 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.239 still in school. So I did that little beta before they actually released Rails 697 00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:37.519 for Zombies, I think in the fall of twenty ten, and then in 698 00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:43.960 early twenty eleven they launched a codesc subscription service. Man at the end of 699 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:46.199 twenty eleven beginning of twenty twelve, I started at cod school. So I 700 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:52.159 literally learned rails on rails for zombies and then worked on rails for zombies. 701 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:54.199 So a bunch of us did that too. Adam Renzel, who's also at 702 00:49:54.239 --> 00:50:00.599 GitHub now, also learned. I badgered him to try Ruby and and rails 703 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:02.760 while he was an instructor at full Sell University when I went to school, 704 00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:07.679 and he was within a few months. He was like good enough, but 705 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:09.760 he'd made a gem and everything and he started working there and now he's just 706 00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:15.119 like doing super cool stuff and it's just so satisfying to know that people who 707 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:19.760 just knew nothing. I remember listening to podcasts like this very podcast when I 708 00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:24.480 was in school and not understanding anything about nbc orm's, you know, web 709 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:30.159 development, and saying to myself, I will probably never understand this because I 710 00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:36.159 think one episode I've listened to of some Ruby on Rails podcast talking about controllers 711 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.480 and we're thinking, like this word makes nose. I don't understand what a 712 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:44.760 controller does and why it's called a controller. It's not controlling, it's a 713 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:50.599 router. It's routing things, you know it. As an English major at 714 00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:52.840 the time, that's the only qualification I had used to drive me crazy and 715 00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:57.599 I really really thought, I'm just gonna learn a little bit about whatever this 716 00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:00.840 is, but I'm never going to be good at it, And then it 717 00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:04.880 just makes so it's so weird to see your name and people at comferences going 718 00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:07.440 like, oh, I learned rails from you, or I learned our respect 719 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:14.000 from you. What. I can definitely sympathize with that because in college I 720 00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:20.320 listened to this podcast all the time and learned so much but also new almost 721 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.440 nothing from it. I was like, I don't know these words meaning they're 722 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:29.119 using all these terms and yata, and now looking back, I know what 723 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.840 those words mean, and now I'm here. So you know, it's just 724 00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:37.239 a natural progression, I think. I think it's it's a useful tool also 725 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:39.880 to do that, especially when you have loss or things disappear or things end. 726 00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:45.159 Like a Rails app is to do this thing called a time machine, 727 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:49.719 so time machine something. It's like ego time machine. So you take a 728 00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.760 time machine, not with you your person, but just take your ego and 729 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.760 how you your sense of self worth back six months, back a year, 730 00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:00.519 five years, and ten years and realize this thing you thought impossible. Now 731 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.119 you do it like on a daily basis, and it's not even a big 732 00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:07.480 deal and it doesn't even phase you. But it's good to do that because 733 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.480 I think, David, you're talking about the sense of self and how much 734 00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.719 or worth and how much you derive from the work you're currently doing, Like 735 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:20.199 how much worth you derive from now? How much worth you put in it? 736 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.599 And I think it really helps to go back regularly as a kind of 737 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:29.039 like a self care exercise to make sure that you you acknowledge and appreciate how 738 00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:34.440 much you've learned and how far you've gone despite things starting an ending here and 739 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:37.440 there, like school ending or a job ending or an app ending. Absolutely, 740 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:44.519 I think I was thinking about I've heard talk about rails itself and say, 741 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:49.039 and he's acknowledged, what if this is the best thing I'm ever going 742 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.480 to do? Yep? Wait, so I guess in the way it's somewhat 743 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.800 of a counterpoint, right pausing and saying that that might be the best I've 744 00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:00.159 got and if you can recognize that, and maybe, I mean, I 745 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:06.079 think there's been a significant amount of luck as well, and just good fortune 746 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:08.880 and good timing and things like that with that have all contributed to Rail's success. 747 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:14.519 But but that also kind of contributes to this idea of I don't know, 748 00:53:14.599 --> 00:53:16.719 maybe that's the thing we should stick stick with, right in terms from 749 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:22.039 his perspective, So the comics similar to dch like, I thought those thoughts 750 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.480 of you know that this is the best thing I'll ever do, and and 751 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:30.840 then it ended. And d is lucky because it didn't end for him, 752 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:34.760 and he's very much in control of where it goes for base Camp and for 753 00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:37.760 Rails, so it's good for him, and I think it's it's nice that 754 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:43.400 he's able to have perspective on it and people have helped him in the community 755 00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:45.559 have perspective on it, because of course he gets tons of feedback from people 756 00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:50.519 in the community saying Rails change my life, right, And people have told 757 00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:52.280 me the same thing about Codeschuild. They're like, ah, you changed my 758 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:57.079 life. I'm like, it's not me directly, but it's us. And 759 00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.440 I think it's okay for it to keep going, it's okay for it to 760 00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:05.079 end. And I honestly think, like it's hard to see where you are. 761 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:07.880 It's back to the planning thing or seeing ahead, like you don't know 762 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:09.840 if it's going to be the best thing you do. You it might feel 763 00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:13.920 that way. It definitely will feel that way if you're doing if you create 764 00:54:13.960 --> 00:54:16.199 something like Kraals. Yeah, I've had people tell me some of the same 765 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:21.519 things about the podcast, that the podcast change people's lives, and it's it's 766 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:25.159 interesting because in some sense I kind of see where they're coming from, and 767 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:30.639 in the other sense, it's like, yeah, but we just kind of 768 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:32.320 gave you the tools. You went and did all the work, right, 769 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:36.320 and so it's it's, yeah, where where does it all come in? 770 00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.960 Where does it all come down? And yeah, so I think some credit 771 00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:43.880 is deserved. But on the other hand of me, people went and did 772 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.719 the work, they figured it out, So I don't know. Yeah, 773 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:52.480 I think too. One of the original points was taking a lot of satisfaction 774 00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:59.719 and fulfillment from the relationships that have been created and established along the way. 775 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:05.280 That's where the real value is. Oh yeah, that's absolutely true. All 776 00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.559 Right, Well, we're kind of getting toward the end of our time, 777 00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:12.400 and I think we've kind of minded this topic for now, so let's go 778 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.519 ahead and do some picks. Nate, do you want to start us off 779 00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:22.320 with picks? Sure? So I just recently listened to just yesterday the keynote 780 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.599 from rails com from DHH again, and it's it's really just fantastic. It's 781 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:32.199 a terrific exploration of what open source is, what it means to contribute to 782 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:36.920 it. It's also kind of a love letter to Ruby. It was just 783 00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:40.239 very well thought out and I highly recommend it. If you have not seen 784 00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:45.559 or heard that keynote yet. Nice. I'm trying to get DHH on so 785 00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:49.159 we can talk about it, so we'll see what we can do there, 786 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:53.800 all right. So yeah, I have two picks. The first pick is 787 00:55:54.360 --> 00:56:01.000 I coughed up the money after seeing the like six or seventh Apple display because 788 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.480 I've been in the market for one bowels, holding off until I saw what 789 00:56:05.559 --> 00:56:07.239 Apple was going to do with their six K. I'm like, screw that. 790 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:10.559 I'm not going to buy that. So instead, I got the five 791 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:16.360 K screens from LG with the Thunderbolt three connector, and they are amazing. 792 00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:22.159 The quality on them and stuff are really nice. And you know, after 793 00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:25.280 seeing a six thousand dollars price stag, a thousand bucks didn't seem as bad. 794 00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:30.320 And since I'm on my computer all freaking day and night, I figured 795 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:36.639 that having a quality display was you know, no justifiable, And I had 796 00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:40.039 another pick. I forget what it was, so I'll just go with that 797 00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:45.039 one. Wasn't there a bunch of blowback after WWDC when they announced the six 798 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.639 K monitors and how much they were going to cost. Well, it's the 799 00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:52.880 stand that actually made people go CROs. Yeah, people, people almost booed. 800 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:57.480 If you watch the keynote, it's very interesting because I watched it late 801 00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:00.480 after everybody watched it, like almost a week after, and there's an audible 802 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:07.000 like what when they announced a thousand dollars STAN for a five four or five 803 00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:09.519 thousand dollars monitor? Because yeah, I think the best argument I've seen on 804 00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:13.639 the internet was someone said, like, just announce the whole thing, say 805 00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.400 it's six thousand dollars. People are be like, yeah, sure, it's 806 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:22.320 Apple, But if you split the two, it just sounds insane and it 807 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:24.360 makes sense. You know, almost would have been better if they said it 808 00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:28.679 costs that much and people remove the stam in the cart and see, oh 809 00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.039 wait, it's a thousand dollars cheaper. I think they would have as a 810 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:36.320 negation. It would have been or subtraction would have been way better for people 811 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:38.960 to discovery. I'll just get a two bite four and some nail. I 812 00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:44.280 mean it kind of kind of looks like that. All right, Andrew, 813 00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:47.760 what are your picks? I usually pick technical picks, but today I have 814 00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:55.079 a more out there pick. I'm choosing wild sardines from wild Planet. And 815 00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:58.960 I don't know if you guys like sardines at all, but I thought I 816 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:01.320 hated them, but then I actually tried them and I actually really like them. 817 00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:06.440 And these are a little bit more expensive than your ninety nine cent can, 818 00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:10.840 but they're a lot better after having tried some of the lower quality ones, 819 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.280 and they're super healthy for you as well. My nutrition has actually recommended 820 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:20.119 them. So yeah, that's my pick. Nice, I only eat sardines 821 00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.559 to gross my kids out. So I'm going to jump in with a few 822 00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:27.639 picks here. So one is, I'm currently at Velocity, which is a 823 00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:30.079 conference put on by O'Reilly. It's for DevOps. They combined it with the 824 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:36.039 Software Architecture and so anyway, I've been talking to a bunch of people. 825 00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:38.159 I'm going to go meet a bunch of other people today. This is mostly 826 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.320 revolving around Adventures in DevOps, which is a show we're starting soon, so 827 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:46.199 check that out. If you were a fan of the Food Fight Show, 828 00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:52.039 which is a devop show that was put on by Nell from Chef and Nathan 829 00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.519 who used to be at Chef and is now at Google. Then Nell is 830 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:58.960 helping us pull this one together and get a rolling so I'm excited about that. 831 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:00.840 And she's been on the show before too, so I'm going to pick 832 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:02.800 that. I also want to shout out about plural Site. They've got a 833 00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:07.320 ton of great courses there, so if you want to go check them out, 834 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:09.000 you can. I have an affiliate link for them, but you don't 835 00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:12.320 have to use it. Just go check them out because they've got good stuff. 836 00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:14.760 I have a lot of friends who are plural site offers as well, 837 00:59:14.840 --> 00:59:20.000 so that's definitely worth doing. Yeah, and then two more picks really quickly, 838 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:22.360 just because I'm excited. My wife texted me in the middle of the 839 00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.360 podcast and she's like, check your email for your Father's Day present, and 840 00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:31.639 she signed me up for butcher Box. And butcher Box is a box subscription 841 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:37.639 where they send you meat, and I like meat, so yeah, they 842 00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:40.599 they ship it out every every month you get a box full of meat, 843 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:45.239 and yeah, I feel like you had to because of the sardine pick to 844 00:59:45.320 --> 00:59:49.960 balance things out a little bit. Sardines. I don't think of sardine's is 845 00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.639 meat as much as I think of like steak and port Anyway, Yeah, 846 00:59:53.920 --> 01:00:04.280 ZII jelly at the Month Club probably sorry the National opens chuck there. It 847 01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:07.480 wouldn't shock me at all at this point if there's a jellybox. But yeah, 848 01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:12.480 so yeah, I'm excited about that too, So I'm going to pick 849 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:15.599 that. And then when I came out here, I booked my hotel through 850 01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:17.119 hotels dot com. So if you're looking for a way to save some money 851 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:20.639 on a hotel, that's a great way to go to Olivia. What do 852 01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:24.079 you picks? So I'm going to start with a counterpoint because I have to. 853 01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:27.960 I'm a meat eater, I'm a carnivore. I'm a French person. 854 01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:31.920 Therefore I eat like milk and all the things dairy everything. But because I 855 01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:37.159 like my planet and I'm trying to be kind of conscious, I actually made 856 01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:39.039 It's going to be kind of like a half steff self pick. There's two 857 01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:44.400 things I don't like. It is waste and like needless waste, and the 858 01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:46.519 other one is like if I can reduce my impact or I can help reduce 859 01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:52.719 my impact on like just crap everywhere. I tried to not drink milk if 860 01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.199 I don't have to, So if I need to consume like a whole glass 861 01:00:55.199 --> 01:01:00.920 of milk, I'm actually drinking something called oatly, which is stupidly good oat 862 01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:05.119 milk or oat I don't know liquid if you want to be contentious. It 863 01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:08.880 just has exactly what none of the substitutes to milk have, which is like 864 01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:14.320 a little bit of fatty content in it in it to make it like substantial, 865 01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:17.280 and it works pretty well with coffee. There's a barista addition for people 866 01:01:17.320 --> 01:01:22.079 who like to use whole milk with their coffee. That's just thicker and it 867 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.480 works better for that. And actually I'm a coffee nerd, and when I 868 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:28.920 stretch milk, I can make it look like wet paint and it's beautiful and 869 01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:31.760 it's delicious, and it mixes in perfectly. Oat Lea's a little bit more 870 01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:36.639 like two percent milk in that in that regard, but it's super good and 871 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:42.079 fewer farting cows, so it helps to kind of reduce that a little bit. 872 01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:44.519 And I again, I love cheese. I'm never gonna get rid of 873 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:46.519 cheese, but I can reduce milk consumption a little bit because milk is like 874 01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:50.719 not really that when you kind of try other things, you realize it's not 875 01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:53.400 that amazing. And then there's there's something I haven't tried but I kind of 876 01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:58.320 want to try. I love ribbi specifically, it's my favorite cut, but 877 01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:00.679 when I eat burgers, i'm kind of curous. Like ground meat in general, 878 01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:04.960 is there's a lot of research to try and make alternative ground meat, 879 01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:08.199 and there's impossible burger and beyond meat. If you have one around you, 880 01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:15.400 just as a intellectual curiosity, try it out, because I've discovered that I 881 01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:19.719 don't like alternative fake meat stuff, but things that are good and that you 882 01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:23.119 used to replace ingredients with, not just to pretend that they're meat, but 883 01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:25.480 to be like, hey, this is also good. A lot of the 884 01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:30.880 impossible burger beyond meat all that stuff is pea based, So this is pea 885 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:34.719 protein and PA has kind of like a dirt, kind of like similar irony 886 01:02:34.760 --> 01:02:38.360 taste as meat red meat. It's not going to be a substitute, but 887 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:43.199 it might be good, like a legit good thing to eat. So that's 888 01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:46.039 one thing I wanted to mention. So in the wastefulness kind of like sustainability 889 01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:52.320 angle. I made a little website for Earthday called Horizon zerowaste dot com. 890 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:54.639 If you get the pun, you're cool. If you don't, it's fine. 891 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:00.079 And it's basically the stupidest little front end. It's just an HTML repo 892 01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:04.320 that's actually marked down. I'm pretty sure if I remember correctly, there's at 893 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.199 the bottom you can see there's a link to the repo and it's just a 894 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:10.800 list of things you can do as alternatives to things that are wasteful. So, 895 01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:15.320 for instance, bottle of water is just straight up it makes no sense, 896 01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:19.239 like just there's so many ways to drink water in metal bottles like this 897 01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.679 qrsicle bottle that I have. It's an Orlando based company that makes super good 898 01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:25.400 Zoji Roushi is a Japanese company that makes really easy to drink from mugs that 899 01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:30.000 you don't have to unscrew and things like this. Carrying around a water mug 900 01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:32.760 or water jug or anything like that is just like makes a ton of sense. 901 01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:37.320 There's these machines in the airports everywhere where you can get filtered water now 902 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:42.000 these days, so it's just like everywhere. So that's one of the examples. 903 01:03:42.039 --> 01:03:45.440 There's plenty of things like that. It's not just all about straws. 904 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:49.000 There's a lot more stuff that you can avoid doing. It's stupidly easy for 905 01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:52.039 most of them. So I encourage you to just like type in anything that 906 01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.400 you want to try to be less wasteful about in a little type of keyword 907 01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:59.679 box at the top. Anything plastic, you can see alternatives like metal, 908 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:02.920 metals cool. You can smelt it and you can turn it into something else. 909 01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:08.360 Plastic not so cool. A great examples dishwasher detergent. It comes into 910 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:13.079 big jugs that are basically full of water. Powder detergent works exactly the same 911 01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:16.199 because you turn it into water with your dishwasher. And it also means that 912 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:19.320 people are not shipping boxes of water around the world, so it helps. 913 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.199 Now I have more Techi picks. I'm just gonna go go through them really 914 01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:28.760 quick. I'm an amateur photographer and for years I try to fight Apple Photos 915 01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:32.039 or like work with it. And probably they're going to improve it with the 916 01:04:32.119 --> 01:04:36.320 new macros version, but it's it's still not quite good enough for the kinds 917 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:40.400 of insane amounts of photos that I take. I take a lot of photos 918 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:43.760 that end up being in like two hundred and fifty thousand shots in fifteen years 919 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:45.360 or something like that, so it takes a lot of space. I want 920 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:49.679 it sync across devices. Turns out Adobe was there a while ago. They're 921 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:53.880 still there, and Lightroom CEC is one of those things where I'm not paid 922 01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:57.880 to say this, but as someone who's just a software nitpicker and a photographer, 923 01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:00.039 they've kicked ass on light room C. You see. It's efficient. 924 01:05:00.159 --> 01:05:03.920 It uses sql light as a kind of like a local storage database, but 925 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:10.599 it's all kind of like Canonical in the cloud based, which means it's always 926 01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:15.320 sinked extremely fast to a lot of devices. It has machine learning search like 927 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:17.840 I mentioned in the pre call, where you can find like photos of coffee 928 01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:23.400 mugs or photos of rugs when you're looking for a thing that you haven't categorized 929 01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:27.280 in a thing and it works surprisingly well. It's fast, the editing is 930 01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:30.840 seamless. You can do a lot of things with a keyboards. It's really 931 01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:33.119 impressive, and I think they have like cheap or free tier plans for thirty 932 01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:36.119 days or something like that where you can try it out. I iPhone app, 933 01:05:36.199 --> 01:05:40.639 macrosapp, and pretty much every platform. Even the web app is great. 934 01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:44.840 Well, what's your preferred camera? My camera's nuts. So this is 935 01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:47.360 not a recommendation because most sane people would not spend that much money on a 936 01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:51.480 camera. So I have a Sony X one R two, which is a 937 01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:57.559 full frame fixed lens camera that's a thirty five milimeter lens F two point zero 938 01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:05.599 Zeiss lens on a basically the same sensor as the mirrorless A seven R two 939 01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:12.079 by Sony, which is the big fancy Sony DSLR. Basically it's not DSLR, 940 01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:15.039 there's no mirror, but it's one of the best there. The sensor 941 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:19.000 is the big thing, big ticket item. Is just an incredible fifty mega 942 01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:24.360 pixel sensor or forty seven megapixel sensor. And it's a full frame camera, 943 01:06:24.440 --> 01:06:28.280 so you get all that, you know, soft focused stuff and Bok booka 944 01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:31.280 and yeah. So if you like photos and stuff like that, it's it's 945 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:34.599 good stuff, very cool, all right. If people want to find you 946 01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:39.000 online Olivia, where do they go? So O L I V I E 947 01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:44.480 R L A C A N dot com. That's my email to hi at 948 01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:47.360 me. Uh that's the same for Twitter, O L I uh oh wow, 949 01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:49.559 I'm trying to spell my name, and I'm like, you can find 950 01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:54.440 me if you put Olivier and Ruby in the in the googles, you can 951 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:57.960 probably find me on GitHub. Same thing. And I do a bunch of 952 01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:02.639 open source stuff like keep a change log and uh yeah that's me. Nice 953 01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:05.440 all right. Well, thanks for coming and talking to us, Thank you 954 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:08.840 for having me. All right, We're going to wrap this one up, 955 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:10.440 folks, and we will be back next week.