1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,359 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:54,640 I'm Bill Thomas. And it is the tenth of October and we have been 11 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:58,079 back from crime Con for quite a while. And you know what that means. 12 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:03,159 It's time for the Crime Con after action report. Wow, that sounds 13 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:07,120 like fun. It does sound like fun. When what did you make of 14 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:12,719 this crime con thing, Kristen Billy? Holy cow, it was amazing up 15 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:18,000 until the food poisoning. But we'll get to that later. Oh my gosh, 16 00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:21,359 I'd completely forgotten about the food poisoning. I put that out of my 17 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:26,200 mind. Yeah, it was an amazing conference, I think. Dare I 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,959 say the best crime con ever? Yeah, I would definitely say so. 19 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,319 Now, were there people that I wished I could see who were not there 20 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,120 with us? Yes? Absolutely, And that message goes directly out to Jim 21 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:45,599 Clemente, who really should have been there but was not a last your FBI 22 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:51,319 profiler crush, my profiller crush. Yes, but boy, it was a 23 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:57,439 real roundup of amazing, hard hitting, fantastic, amazing people, and I 24 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,319 really enjoyed myself. I know. Well, there was one sad moment, 25 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,760 which is you had said to me you wanted to meet Paul Holes, and 26 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:09,159 I kept running into Paul Holes at various places at Crime Con, and unfortunately, 27 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:15,280 whenever I ran into Paul, who was everybody's investigative crush, I was 28 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:17,560 not with you. So he and I chatted three or four times over the 29 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,360 course of the weekend, and he always asked me, what's going on with 30 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,439 the Colonial Parkray murders, how's your sister's case, that kind of thing, 31 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,159 which I appreciate. And you had said to me, why am I not 32 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:35,800 meeting Paul. It has been three crime cons now that I have not met 33 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,639 Paul Holes, and I'd like to go on the record as saying I was 34 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:45,240 promised by Mac and by the Middlemans that they would introduce me to Paul Holes 35 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,560 because they're all such good buddies, and I did not get an introduction, 36 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,400 and now I'm salty about it. I do feel better about one thing, 37 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:55,919 which is I thought I was the only one that you were blaming, but 38 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,879 it's actually several different friends. Yeah. Somehow makes it worse, actually, 39 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,520 because so many of you have access to Paul Holes, and yet I have 40 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:13,800 been denied this access for three crime cons. Now, well, I'm concerned 41 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,639 that he may not want to meet you because you're taller than he is, 42 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:23,960 and that could be part of it. He may be avoiding you, and 43 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:30,039 now Paul's going to be mad at me. It is actually amazing just the 44 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:37,639 number of people who throw themselves at Paul Holes. Mostly women. Oh yeah, 45 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,319 no, I definitely heard that. At his meet and greet, they 46 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:45,960 had to shut the room down because there were more people in it than was 47 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,400 allowable. It was a fire hazard. The man created a fire hazard. 48 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:54,840 By having more than two thousand people in the same room, all of whom 49 00:03:54,919 --> 00:04:00,080 were clamoring for him. It was crazy. We could have gotten you into 50 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:05,360 that room, for sure. You in one nine hundred and ninety nine other 51 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,919 crazed pole holes fans. It's crazy. Some people were even saying that he 52 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,680 doesn't even stay on property anymore because he wouldn't get a minute's worth of peace. 53 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:18,639 And I'd believe it. I have no idea. I'd just run into 54 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,480 him backstage at various points. Well, that's because you're a VIP, mister 55 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,600 VIP, and I think we should definitely talk about that as well, because 56 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:31,759 there are perks to being Bill Thomas's podcast partner, and one of them is 57 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,120 that since you get to do ZIP things, I get to do ZIP things 58 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,240 too. I guess that's true. So on a more serious note, there 59 00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:45,680 was a tremendous amount of incredibly positive conversation at Crime Con. It's not all 60 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:51,160 just about who's the sexiest investigator out there, but a lot of conversation about 61 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:57,439 advocacy, how to move through crime cases forward. I met a tremendous number 62 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:01,160 of family members, many from k Is that we all know from following true 63 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:08,040 crime as well as brand new cases which were heartbreaking that I'd never even heard 64 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:11,759 of before, and I had a chance to meet those family members talk with 65 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,240 them. I'll tell you a little bit about a meeting that I attended with 66 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:20,519 a bunch of people who have lost loved ones in these terrible crimes, and 67 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:27,000 their assistance and camaraderie and the offers of help, for instance, to these 68 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,360 people who've had something terrible happen in their families within the last few weeks or 69 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:38,240 months. But I thought the overall atmosphere of Crime Con was incredibly positive. 70 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,240 People were having a good time. That shouldn't be lost on anybody. If 71 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,399 you're a true crime fan and you want to go there and find out what's 72 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:49,399 going on in the true crime space, find out about new television shows, 73 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:56,759 new books, new podcasts, meet some of your favorite reporters and investigators, 74 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,920 forensics experts. It just goes on. It's really an amazing place to be. 75 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,360 There's an entertainment component to it, and I don't have a problem with 76 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:10,879 that. People watch true crime because they find it interesting. They listened to 77 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:15,000 true crime podcasts like ours and others. The atmosphere was positive. It was 78 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,360 very survivor supportive, which is hard to roll off the tongue. So people 79 00:06:20,439 --> 00:06:25,639 were treated with respect, I thought, And I think Crime Crime has really 80 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,680 made a significant effort to make sure that people are respectful, which I appreciate 81 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,680 it. Yeah. Absolutely, In every group of more than it was more 82 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,160 than five thousand people this year, I'm firmly convinced, like the official number 83 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,759 had to have been closer to six thousand, and so there's always going to 84 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,240 be one or two bad apples that slipped through. So did I see somebody 85 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,360 or a couple of somebody's wearing BTK fan T shirts? Yes? And do 86 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,920 I think that was particularly nasty considering that Carrie Rawsen, btk's daughter was there, 87 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,120 Yeah, I think that's awful. She should not have to go through 88 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:06,279 the crowd and see people wearing her dad's face on a T shirt. I 89 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,519 hate that. I think that's awful. But that's only a couple of people. 90 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,600 For the most part, though, we saw charming and funny shirts like 91 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:20,279 this person's my alibi or this is my crime con T shirt or this is 92 00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:25,040 my Murder shows and comfy Clothes T shirt, all sorts of things like that, 93 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,360 right, And those are great. I saw a lot of people with 94 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,480 basically a detective shirts. Yeah, which makes me smile and it's funny. 95 00:07:32,519 --> 00:07:38,480 I made some observations to you the audience, and there definitely were more than 96 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,160 five thousand people there. This was a beautiful hotel, just absolutely gorgeous, 97 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:49,079 and the ballrooms were gigantic, So it really held these thousands and thousands of 98 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:55,079 people very well. It was never too crowded, I thought. At one 99 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,000 point in the early going, I took a long walk to a place where 100 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,639 you could get a sandwich within the hotel complex, and I had a chance 101 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,480 to sit for a few minutes and I just watched people go by while I 102 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:11,680 ate my sandwich. Just a few observations. The audience overwhelmingly female. I 103 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,040 think it's even higher than seventy percent. There were a tremendous number of women 104 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:22,079 there, a lot of mother daughter duos, and a lot of small groups 105 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:28,720 of women that look like sisters or best friends who clearly watch true crime, 106 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,000 listen to true crime, read about true crime. And this was something that 107 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:37,720 they had planned as a kind of a fun weekend away, looking into an 108 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:43,000 interest that they share. Yeah, and I want to say now that we're 109 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,480 talking about audience real quick, I just want to say how absolutely positively blown 110 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:52,919 away I was when within five minutes of me arriving three hours late. We'll 111 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:54,759 get to that in a second. I got there, I got to our 112 00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:58,960 booth, and within five minutes of arriving, not only did I find cow 113 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,080 Ramselin, who'd been looking for me. Thank god I found her because it 114 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,279 was the only time I got to see her, and it was for about 115 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,600 ten minutes, but I also had within five minutes there were people walking up 116 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:13,639 to me going, oh, oh, you're Kristen and I'm here from Williamsburg 117 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,480 and it was like, wait, you came from Williamsburg and they were like, 118 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,000 yes, to see you guys. I'm like, oh, my gosh, 119 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,720 what, no, you came from Williamsburg to see us? What that 120 00:09:24,759 --> 00:09:28,120 happened? That happened a lot, and on that it happened a lot. 121 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:33,000 I was floored. It's really nice. We met hundreds and hundreds of people. 122 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:35,039 We met a whole bunch of people who are listeners to the podcast, 123 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,559 and thank you all for coming up and being so nice and saying hello. 124 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,840 And then we also met hundreds more people that came up to us and said, 125 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:48,159 tell us about your podcast, and we were the case or whatever else 126 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,200 exactly, and they had a lot of questions and we were passing up stickers 127 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,639 and postcards and things like that, and we had a QR code on the 128 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,720 back of a lot of our merchandise that allowed you to flip it over and 129 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,639 it take you right to mind if a murder. And people thought that was 130 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,080 really cool and they promised to check it out. And they had lots of 131 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,000 questions. They were like, what's your podcast about? Who were the two 132 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:13,559 of you? How did you get into podcasting? And we were on a 133 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:20,799 place called podcast Row, which is a very big ballroom chock full of podcasters, 134 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,399 but there were also all sorts of other people in the room. Yeah, 135 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,519 and it's great because we're We had Robin Water from the Trow and Cold 136 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:35,799 on one side. We had Mike Morford from Criminology and however many other podcasts 137 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,200 he currently has at the moment, doesn't he have tend Mike's on our other 138 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,879 side, thing going on there. Jess Bettencore was down at the end from 139 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,039 dna ID. It's we're here. We're in a group of our closest, 140 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,720 most amazing podcast colleagues the world. Just we're sitting here hanging out with each 141 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:58,120 other. It were so four hours it's really neat. It was nice because 142 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,519 the podcasters had a chance to see each other and maybe take some pictures together. 143 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:07,679 And then sometimes when large crowds came up, like to Robin Warder or 144 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,679 other podcasters, we'd run over and take a picture for them so they could 145 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,919 get a good picture with their fans. It was really a tremendous amount of 146 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:22,480 fun. And interestingly, this year podcast Row had all sorts of other related 147 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:28,480 entities displaying on podcast Row, so it wasn't just about podcasts. There were 148 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,799 a whole bunch of publishers who are putting out great new true crime books. 149 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,600 There were a number of the technology companies, that is, the labs, 150 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:43,840 the tech companies like Athram, Viagin and others. They had beautiful booths and 151 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:52,039 they were explaining how DNA can help solve cases. They had everything from the 152 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:58,480 police departments from various parts of the country, even recruiting people if they were 153 00:11:58,519 --> 00:12:03,399 interested in joining the Orlando PD. Yeah, and all kinds of really interesting 154 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:11,080 merchandise t shirts and hats and all sorts of stuff, and then a massive 155 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:13,919 bookstore next door where you could get yeah, all of the latest True Climb 156 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,519 Books, which is one of Kristen's favorites. One of the booths that I 157 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,200 particularly liked was NEKMAC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. They 158 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:30,120 were working on a really amazing ongoing art project all weekend essentially, but it 159 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,159 was they were working on a clay sculpture, building out what a child's face 160 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,559 would look like based on the sketch that they had been given. And they 161 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:43,600 were doing this clay sculpture all weekend long until we were packing up. At 162 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,200 the last minute. I saw them walking by with the finished clay sculpture of 163 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,279 this child's face, and I was like, that is really cool because so 164 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,480 you could watch people doing this and it wasn't just you're having to sit there 165 00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:00,519 and talk to people. You can interact. So they had Brandon from News 166 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:03,679 Nation. He was there. They were doing stand ups and stuff like that. 167 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,440 You had Court TV. There were places where you can get behind the 168 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,399 camera and kind of record yourself doing little stand ups and things like that. 169 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,120 It's very interactive. And then every year since I've been at Crime Con, 170 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,320 there's been the there's been the booth where you can try out different types of 171 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:24,960 tasers and self defense things, and I definitely looked into a taser until I 172 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:26,679 realized you can't really bring a taser on a plane, idiot, don't do 173 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:31,919 that. Maybe you want to bring one to school. I know what you 174 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,200 want to do. What I was looking at, though, is I did 175 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:37,960 ask them. I said, look, I'm a runner. What is my 176 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,679 best option for this? And they were pointing out, here's some peppers. 177 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:43,759 Bay, Well, no, I don't want to peppers for anybody, because 178 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:46,320 what if it goes back in my face in the wind that I want to 179 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,080 do that? And we finally talked about okay, how about a tactical pen, 180 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:54,679 which is something that Jim Clemente actually remember that, Yeah, he's talked 181 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,519 about those. So they had a couple of different types of tactical pens. 182 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,440 Yes, they actually write, but they also have a glass breaker in the 183 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:05,039 end, and once got an embedded blade, and I love that. I 184 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:11,399 think that's great. So in Nashville, when I'm driving and not flying, 185 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,840 I will get a taser and a tactical pen and be ready for whatever should 186 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,840 befall when I go running. But I love that, and that's that is 187 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,559 something that has been there ever since I started going to crime Con, which 188 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:28,679 was Nashville. But I love that they offer so many different things. And 189 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,080 this was your fourth crime Con and my fifth, I think. Okay, 190 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:39,240 wait so Nashville, New Orleans, Vegas. Yes, so this was my 191 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,000 fourth one. And then you did Austin without me and was COVID but they 192 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:46,000 had that was COVID are Yeah, that was COVID And then yeah, so 193 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,360 my fourth ye or fifth. Yeah. There were a lot of other amazing 194 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,120 organizations there, like the National Center for Victims of Crime and I did a 195 00:14:54,120 --> 00:15:00,440 panel with them later on in the weekend. There were so many great people 196 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,840 there, it was almost overwhelming. There's so many experts you can meet. 197 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,159 And we saw a number of people who have been guests on our podcast that 198 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,960 we'd never met physically, because if you think about how we do the podcast, 199 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:18,440 Kristen's in Virginia, Bill's in Connecticut, and the guest can be anywhere. 200 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,320 We typically will line up him or her on a zoom call we recorded 201 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,039 the episode, but we don't meet necessarily. As a matter of fact, 202 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:31,320 I would say in most examples, we don't meet the person. We might 203 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:35,080 talk to them in advance, but we don't actually physically meet. So it 204 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:41,679 was so great to be at Crime Con, in particular at the Clue Awards, 205 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,799 which was Saturday night, to have a chance to meet people and to 206 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:48,879 thank them for being onmind over murder, and how much we enjoyed talking with 207 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,159 them, and how much we enjoyed whatever it is they're a forensics expert or 208 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,519 a scientist or an author, how much we appreciated their willingness to come on 209 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:02,679 and talk with our listeners. Yeah, that was I think our only time 210 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:07,399 to grab doctor Michael Bowden and get a selfie with him was right at the 211 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,559 end of the Clue Awards and he was getting mobbed by people anyway, so 212 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,879 I think I was only able to actually pull him over for a selfie because 213 00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:21,120 I don't know if you heard what I said to him. I'm sure I 214 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,159 lean. I said, doctor Bonden, I'd like to get a selfie with 215 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:33,200 the nicest looking gentleman in the room. And he lived line and he lit 216 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:36,919 up. It was so sweet, and he was like, yes, absolutely, 217 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,720 and I said I reminded him. I said, you've done our podcast 218 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:41,120 and he goes, oh, just remind me your name again, And I 219 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:45,080 reminded him and he was like, oh, yes, I remember, and 220 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,279 everything. So we did a couple of quick selfies with him. He said, 221 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,000 a lovely guy, and he was so nice. He's so smart, 222 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,240 and he put up with us asking all of our questions on Mind over Murder, 223 00:16:56,279 --> 00:16:59,120 and then when we met him, it was like he was really excited 224 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,279 to say hello. There were so many people like that who were there. 225 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,279 These are subject matter experts in a variety of different disciplines, and it's such 226 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:14,519 a pleasure to hear them present talk about their work. It was so interesting, 227 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:18,079 if anything, all of the breakout sessions as they call them, where 228 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,240 different people are presenting on their new project or what it is they are known 229 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:30,200 for. They're so interesting and you have to make hard decisions about who's going 230 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,559 to cover the booth for Mind of a Murder as well as I really have 231 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,720 to see this person or that person speak yeah and actually so true that. 232 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:41,880 And let's go through. Let's go through the weekend so we can talk about 233 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,839 the various things that we did, and we'll start with Okay, so we'll 234 00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,319 start with you didn't have travel woes, but you certainly ended up having to 235 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:52,200 get up early. You were up by two in the morning to get to 236 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:53,799 Crime Gone, Right, I was up at two thirty in the morning, 237 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,599 left the house at three point fifteen, get to the airport at four o'clock 238 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,440 six am. Flight fly straight down, pick up the booth and my bag, 239 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,200 take a lift directly to the airport. And so I got to the 240 00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:17,000 hotel about ten fifteen, I think, And it took me an hour to 241 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,640 set up the booth now, and you were, of course texting me that 242 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,039 you've been delayed. Yes, and we're going to get to that in a 243 00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:29,119 second. So I got the booth set up, and of course I thought 244 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,480 to myself, when Kristen gets here, she's going to change everything I just 245 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,799 did. But at least I'll get us up and running. And there were 246 00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:41,839 so many people waiting to get into crime Con and into podcast Row. They 247 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,319 actually opened up early, so at eleven thirty, even though we were scheduled 248 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:51,480 for twelve, they opened up, and they're a flood of people came into 249 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,960 podcast Row. You start doing the whole meet and greet and saying hi to 250 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,759 folks and telling them about your podcast or in many examples, meeting folks already 251 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:03,039 listened to mine over Murder, and it was really fun, but I missed 252 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,359 having you there. Kristen, but I knew you were delayed. I had 253 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,400 originally figured, Okay, if as long as I get to Orlando within a 254 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,279 couple of hours of crime con starting, it'll be fine. So my original 255 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:19,519 plan was, I've got a I've got like a nine to thirty flight. 256 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,279 It'll be down there by eleven thirty. I can get to the i can 257 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:26,799 get to everything. I'll be with Bill by say about one o'clock. Worst 258 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,480 case scenario is it takes me that long to get my luggage and go to 259 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:33,960 the hotel and then head over to the venue. But the flight got delayed 260 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:41,400 because the plane coming from Orlando had mechanical difficulties. Oh, I thought it 261 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,559 was so the storm that hit. So we were a storm was rolling in 262 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:48,640 and I had We had a couple of terrifying moments where we were like, 263 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,640 oh my god, if this plane is delayed any longer, we're going to 264 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,319 be delayed getting out of here because a tropical storm was coming in. But 265 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:03,119 now the main reason was the plane leaving Orlando, which incidentally and interestingly, 266 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,559 a friend of mine was on on the Orlando end because he kept posting to 267 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,880 Facebook and he was like, my flight from Orlando back to Richmond is delayed, 268 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,200 And I wrote, you, son of a bitch, is you're plane 269 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:17,240 is the one that I need to get on, and you've delayed it somehow 270 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,319 or another. I need that I knew that airplane. So he actually we 271 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:25,519 were texting back and forth, and I was waiting at the gate for him 272 00:20:25,559 --> 00:20:30,240 when he disembarched, because it really was his plane and that I needed to 273 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,160 get on. And he came off. He'd been at Universal and Disney in 274 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,480 a bunch of other places for a couple of days, and I yelled across 275 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:45,559 the terminal, dude, where's my plane. It's right out there. But 276 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,000 yeah, we ended up being delayed by that mechanical issue on the ground in 277 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,119 Orlando, so we didn't get to Richmond until later. We didn't get to 278 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,720 Orlando until later than that. So by the time I finally got to you, 279 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:02,839 it was about four point thirty clock. Maybe you'd already gone to do 280 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,519 your advocates group, which I want you to talk about in a second. 281 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,160 And so I arrived. Our booth is there, and you're right immediately reorganized 282 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:18,160 and lined up all of our postcards in stam stuff. I know, It's 283 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,400 just I have a touch of obsessive compulsive disorder and touch, just a touch, 284 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:26,240 just a little bit, just a little bit, just a little bit. 285 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,559 I had gone random rakish angles all over the table and you came along. 286 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,759 But everything in the very neat little bond, neat little stacks and everything, 287 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,319 And I know it drives you nuts. I know it must, but 288 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,279 it's just one of those things. I'm so ridiculously regimented about the way that 289 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,319 I wanted things to look good. So yes, I rearranged the table. 290 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:49,039 I saw a couple of people who recognized me, and then I had a 291 00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:52,400 couple of people who came up very concerned because they hadn't seen you and they 292 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,519 wanted you. And I was like, he went to a group and he'll 293 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,440 he'll be back later. And then I met up with Shane wat and we 294 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,039 realized, oh wait, we've got a podcaster's thing that we're going to. 295 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,039 We better hustle it upstairs. And I was a little worried I couldn't get 296 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:11,799 into the podcasters thing because you had my badge, because I pick it up 297 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,839 and we were not physically together at that together. Yeah, so I was 298 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,279 a little worried that I wasn't going to be able to get into the podcaster's 299 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:26,839 penthouse party, but was able to, thankfully because Alice recognized me. Oh 300 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,759 good, and something important happened and a lot of people have been asking us 301 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:37,000 about it. Friday evening, before Kristin arrived, and I want to thank 302 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:42,039 everybody for their expressions of support and concern, two sets of people came up 303 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:49,680 to me Kristin was not there yet and had information about the Colonial Parkway murders. 304 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,480 Now we can't get into what information they provided, but it was actually 305 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:57,319 quite important. And this was two sets of two people back to back. 306 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,319 I was surprised in both examples. They said they were listeners to the podcast, 307 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:08,839 and they were both from Virginia, and they had information in different aspects 308 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,400 of the Colonial Parkray murders, which we've since passed on to law enforcement. 309 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,279 I was steamed with myself because I was short on sleep and a little frazzled. 310 00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:26,119 I wasn't like here I am when I'm in my home office slash podcasting 311 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,440 studio, where I've got paper in front of me and a pen and I'm 312 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,759 ready to go with various forms of technology. Somehow, when I spoke to 313 00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:40,920 this first duo, they gave me information about the Colonial Parkway murders, which 314 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,480 I thought could be quite important. Ultimately, it's up to our investigators to 315 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:48,880 decide these things. They had given me this info, and I didn't write 316 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:55,920 down their contact information like an idiot. I was a little frazzled, and 317 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,720 I didn't go get my briefcase and pull out a piece of paper write down 318 00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:04,359 an email or a phone number or something. They had said they were very 319 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,119 eager to meet you, Kristin, which of course a lot of people said 320 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,400 that. And they said they were going to come by later on in the 321 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,359 weekend because crime con goes Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So I thought I 322 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:21,279 was going to see them again, and I don't think we ever did connect. 323 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,240 Now, interestingly, the second pair of people that came up right after 324 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:30,720 that first pair, and this again may have played into my dropping the ball 325 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:36,000 about finding contact information for the first pair of people. They had information, 326 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,599 but I actually knew their names because not everybody that listens to our podcast participates 327 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:45,720 in our social media Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all those things, but 328 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,720 these two people in particular, they do, and so when they said hello, 329 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,720 I recognized their names. I was like, oh gosh, yes, 330 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:56,960 you've commented from time to time, good thoughtful comments. And so they had 331 00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:02,519 information on the Colonial Parkway murders as well, which was all new to us, 332 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,000 and that was very interesting. We passed that on to law enforcement as 333 00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:11,000 well. Because I'd connected with the second duo, I knew how to get 334 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,759 a hold of them, and they actually did stop by the next day, 335 00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:18,480 but I don't think the first pair of people stopped by. I was so 336 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:22,519 annoyed with myself because we wanted to get this information to law enforcement. I 337 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,960 wanted to talk to them again. And then when we got to the end 338 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,079 of crime come, I said, for the life of me, I can't 339 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,799 remember their names. And we'd met hundreds of people and talked with who knows 340 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,160 how many people. As a matter of fact, my voice was even starting 341 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,240 to go by the end of Yeah, And I was so upset with myself 342 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:45,680 because I said, I don't know how to get a hold of these people. 343 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,559 So we tried a couple of different things, and I know a number 344 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:53,720 of you had commented on this. We tried putting up notices on our social 345 00:25:53,759 --> 00:26:02,079 media, and I think got increasingly dire we really want to talk to you, 346 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,599 Yeah, increasingly dire sounding. Yeah, Yeah, because you're not trying 347 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:11,279 to be alarmist or whatever, but when someone tells you something that you think 348 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:15,759 could be important and you would like to get into the hands of the investigators, 349 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,400 and only the investigators can evaluate whether information is important or not. But 350 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:26,200 it seemed important to us, and so we tried different things. So Kristen 351 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,160 and I Kristin put up notices on Facebook, and then I did Twitter and 352 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:36,559 Instagram, and then we did it again. And then actually the second pair 353 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,400 of people who had contacted us, they circled back with us and said, 354 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,000 did you need to hear from us again? And we're like, we're actually 355 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:47,599 looking for a different pair of people people, but we're glad to hear from 356 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,640 you. But we're very glad to hear from you. We tried a couple 357 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,039 of different things, and then I thought, let's put up a notice at 358 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,079 the front end of our next episode of Mind of a Murder. Yeah, 359 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,880 so we tried that, and then and we tried it again, and I 360 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,759 hope we weren't annoying anybody by this point, but people were like, have 361 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,799 you heard from these people? Yeah? And as a matter of fact, 362 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,279 a listener texted me this afternoon and said, did you ever hear from those 363 00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:12,519 people, and I said, yes, why, yes, we did. 364 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,319 But interestingly, it wasn't until a listener suggested, Bill, why don't you 365 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:26,279 put up that same notice on one of the crime con Facebook groups, And 366 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,279 I said, that's a good idea. So I went ahead and did that, 367 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,160 and then the crime con people got a hold of me and they're like, 368 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,480 is there anything we can do to how we want to connect this pair 369 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,240 of people with this pair of podcasters, so you can pass along the information. 370 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,000 And eventually we did hear from them. We did pass along the information 371 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,279 to law enforcement and they're following up and so it all worked out fine. 372 00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:59,480 But thank you. Everybody who asked about it offered suggestions, and interestingly it 373 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:03,279 was that fire I don't suggestion, try the crime con social media pages, 374 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:10,680 not just Mind over Murder, which yeah, obviously one podcast has a certain 375 00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:12,839 number of people that look at social media. It might be thousands of people. 376 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,160 We only needed to reach two, but we needed to reach those two 377 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,119 people. And by the way, they never said but I got the impression 378 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:23,000 they might have been on vacation or something. Yeah. Afterward, we were 379 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,240 in Florida, we were in Orlando, and we were right across the street 380 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:33,000 from a place called Disney World that you may have heard of. You're listening 381 00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:38,279 to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 382 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,480 We're back here at mindover Murder. It was in the traffic outside Disney. 383 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:56,680 Oh my gosh, it was crazy. So yeah, we were finally 384 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,720 able to connect with those people. And that was the That was just one 385 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:03,240 of the many. So you and I had met on Friday night. You 386 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:07,920 had done your advocacy group, which we want to talk about. You and 387 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,559 I had done the Podcasters of the Podcasters meet and great up in the Penthouse. 388 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,920 Thank you Kevin for allowing us up into the Penthouse where we could see 389 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,480 this great view of all of the Disney parks. Then afterward, it was 390 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:23,680 it had been about like ten o'clock at night or something like that, and 391 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,599 you and I got back to our hotel we were staying off site, and 392 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,119 we were sitting down at the bar and you were telling me all of this 393 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:33,799 information, and I could tell you were exhausted because you've been up since two 394 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,799 in the morning. And you were like, I don't I don't have the 395 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,279 name of that first person. And I was like, oh, I'm sure 396 00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:44,039 they're going to come back around. Oh, it was just the It was 397 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,599 just the worst when you know, we realized by the end of the weekend, 398 00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:51,799 Oh no, they never came back by, and it turned out that 399 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,200 was something that we really needed to be able to tell law enforcement. Thankfully, 400 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,319 all's well, that ends well, But it is a crazy, exhausting 401 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,680 weekend. And you were up far earlier than I was, so I could 402 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,519 tell by the time we were done with the end of the day you were 403 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,640 through the ringer. Yeah. I think I was more fully functional on Saturday 404 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,759 than I was on Friday. Yeah, we were definitely better off on Saturday, 405 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,000 although Saturday is just a very full day and that was it was crazy, 406 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:25,680 And so I guess one thing that you really have to keep in mind 407 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,680 when you do crime con is be willing to go without sleep if you want 408 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,599 to do a little bit of everything, because you need to be there early. 409 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:36,640 You need to be willing to stay all day. And one thing for 410 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,039 participants in particular, you got to make sure you have chargers with you. 411 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:45,119 You got to make sure you have food with you because there's so much to 412 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,680 do. Like you said, you're not going to want to leave between sessions 413 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,960 and miss out on something. So it becomes like you're having to make decisions 414 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,880 about where am I going from one minute to the next. And if you 415 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,200 don't want to miss a session, that might very well mean you don't get 416 00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,200 lunch, you don't have time to charge your phone, you don't have time 417 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,880 to go back up to your room. It's a very hectic, very full 418 00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:10,000 set of days. And so I got smart for this one. I wasn't 419 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,720 smart about it at Vegas, but I got smart for this one. And 420 00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,559 I had protein bars and I had crackers in my backpack. I brought a 421 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:21,599 charger with me. I had extra drinks and stuff because there was no guarantee 422 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:23,839 between being in the booth and going to see stuff that I was ever going 423 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400 to be able to go out and get a meal, and I didn't. 424 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:33,119 I don't remember eating on Saturday until we got to the Clue Awards. Yeah, 425 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:37,960 it was quite a day. Saturday was an amazing day. As Kristin 426 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:44,359 mentioned, I was invited to attend a small scale meeting with a new group 427 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,599 that crime Con is putting together, and Kevin balf who's the guy that runs 428 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,279 crime Con, and the aforementioned Paul Hols had an idea of putting together a 429 00:31:53,319 --> 00:32:00,880 group of people who've lost loved ones as a result of criminal mileline. So 430 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:04,960 this would be a lot of people that you would know from cases that you 431 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,920 would know. Nicole and Joe Schmidt and Joe and Tara Patito were there. 432 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:15,480 These are are Gabby Potito's parents and very interesting with the four of them. 433 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,279 Her parents divorced a number of years ago and they both remarried. They are 434 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,880 amazing people, incredibly positive and sweet and just really great, nice people who've 435 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,240 been through the ringer in terms of losing Gabby and then of course the media 436 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:37,200 firestorm that occurred as a result of Gabby's disappearance. But it's interesting these two 437 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:45,359 couples, including her mom and dad who divorced, they get along so amazingly 438 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,640 well. They actually finish each other's sentences and they're the loveliest people. And 439 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,799 they've now set up Gabby Patito Foundation and they're doing a lot of really worthwhile 440 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,279 things. They want something good to come from using Gabby, and they were 441 00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:05,599 incredibly wonderful. And there were a number of other people that you would know, 442 00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:12,039 Carrie Rawson, who was btk's daughter, Margaret Wardlow, who survived the 443 00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:16,559 East Area rapist or who later became known as the Golden State Killer. David 444 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,319 Robinson who's been looking for his son Daniel Robinson for two years. Lovely, 445 00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:30,440 lovely man Becky Patty from the Delphi case. She's the grandmother of Liberty German, 446 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:35,319 one of the two victims in that case. Together with her friend Abigail 447 00:33:35,319 --> 00:33:39,960 Williams. Becky's absolutely lovely. And then there were new people that had terrible 448 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,880 things had happened to them recently. There was a woman who spoke named Melissa 449 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,559 Winters. She was speaking about her missing child case. So this is someone 450 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:55,640 this has just happened within the last few months. It was amazing listening to 451 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,160 these other pretty highly experienced I mean, you had the sister survivors from the 452 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,640 Golden State Killer case there who were just amazing people, and they were offering 453 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,320 advice and it was it was pretty powerful. It was supposed to be an 454 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,880 hour and a half and someone made the decision. After we'd just had brief 455 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,199 remarks from Paul Holds and Kevin balf welcoming everybody, someone said, why doesn't 456 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,840 everybody go around the room and talk a little bit about who they are and 457 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,039 what their involvement in this thing is. So we made our way around the 458 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,559 room, and of course these are some people that I know and many people 459 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:38,760 that I admire. To listen to each person's story briefly was incredibly difficult. 460 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:44,679 There were a lot of tears and a lot of pain, and it was 461 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,400 difficult. I told Kristin, I know, I told you this. Afterwards, 462 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,679 I felt like I'd been through a washing machine, like I felt wrung 463 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,679 out listening. Some people only spoke for a moment or two, and other 464 00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:00,119 people spoke for a couple of minutes, and everybody was they just let them 465 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:04,840 talk. As you made your way around the circle, you realized that about 466 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,519 thirty of us, I would say, in the room, and every single 467 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:14,840 person in that room has been directly touched by criminal violence and man. Some 468 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,800 of the stories, including the new ones, there were a couple that were 469 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,360 so shocking they were so hard to listen to because you were like, how 470 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:29,199 can one human being do that to another human being? And these are, 471 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,440 like I said, some very high profile cases that all of us have followed 472 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,639 through crime know about, and then a bunch of cases that you've never heard 473 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,599 about before, you haven't heard about yet, and each one was equally heartbreaking 474 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,079 in its own way. Man, it was a privilege to be in the 475 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:49,800 room, but it wasn't much fun. That is one of the things that 476 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,280 I think I'm most blessed by to be able to experience at Crime con. 477 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,239 It is a privilege for me every single day to work with you, Bill, 478 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960 because you who are dealing with I think, some of the worst trauma 479 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,360 and pain that anybody can But here you are doing it. You're advocating for 480 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,800 Kathy, You're advocating for the rest of the families in these cases, You're 481 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,039 advocating for everybody who has gone through a magnificent and tremendous loss. You're not 482 00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:22,039 letting it beat you. You're getting up and living your life and doing everything 483 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:25,360 and trying to make the world a better place for everybody else in it. 484 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,679 That's a privilege for me. But it's even more so when, Oh, 485 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,559 I'm not just getting to hang out with Bill today, I'm getting to hang 486 00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:39,280 out with Jane Carson Sandler and Debbie Dominga, Marha wardlow Right, who I 487 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:45,960 had a very intense and very heartfelt and moving conversation with two of the three 488 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,119 of them at Crime con in Vegas, and I was able to follow it 489 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,320 up this time by telling them, as a result of the conversation that we 490 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,800 had, because of the things that we have gone through and that we have 491 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,840 shared, I was able to make these changes in my life for the better. 492 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,079 And I wanted to thank you both for that. And that always results 493 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:08,840 in tears and hugs and this sense of shared we're fighting, but we're getting 494 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:15,800 through it. Whether you're talking to Kathy Kleiner or Jane Barowski or Jane or 495 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,239 Debbie or you or anybody else. It is my great privilege to be able 496 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,960 to share this with you, guys, and to know that here you are. 497 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,840 You've suffered this awful stuff, but you're still standing and you're still thriving, 498 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,159 and that's amazing. Oh, thank you, But I have to I 499 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:35,840 can only imagine how difficult it must have been to sit in that room. 500 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,880 Yeah, it's an honor to meet those people and to be in the room 501 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,840 with those people, but to hear their stories, even the short version of 502 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,079 their stories, is not easy. We're putting together this group, they're calling 503 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:51,480 it the Advocates, and they asked us just the other day in a follow 504 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:54,039 up email, are you interested in continuing to participate, and I said, 505 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,599 of course yes, and I hope that a number of other people will feel 506 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:02,760 the same way. We're going to talk about where we want to take this 507 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,719 group and what we want to do with this collection of people. And it 508 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:14,719 occurred to me I thought of John Walsh from America's Most Wanted. He had 509 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,480 said that we're members of the club that no one wants to be invited to 510 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:22,679 join, and it does feel like that. It's I think any of us 511 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,119 would give anything to not be invited to a meeting like that, because we 512 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,559 hadn't experienced what we have, but it was. It was a rare and 513 00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:40,760 special, but not an easy place to be. Crime con has definitely become, 514 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,679 as you mentioned at the top of the pod, a place for survivors, 515 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,400 a place for advocates, and a place where people who are trying to 516 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,039 do some good in the world can come together and continue to make good things 517 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,840 happen, and people are able to connect with each other in a way that 518 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,639 they might not otherwise. I would say that probably the most There were a 519 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:06,960 number of great impactful, emotional moments from that weekend, but I think probably 520 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,119 the one that I am going to have resonate with me for a long time. 521 00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:16,199 Was being able to introduce Jane Barowski to Kathy Kleiner. I was thinking 522 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:23,039 about that those two women had never met before, and we were each big 523 00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:28,679 fans of one another, and what a privilege to introduce those two people. 524 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,599 And just the way that they both survived something that very few other people on 525 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:39,800 this planet will ever survive. They survived two serial killers. That was amazing. 526 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,639 Just to see the way that Kathy's so very generous. And as soon 527 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:46,639 as I said, hey, Kathy, want to introduce you to Jane, 528 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:52,559 Jane gasped yes because I told her she knew who Kathy was, and she 529 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,199 gasped and she goes, oh my gosh. And Kathy just held out her 530 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,800 arms to her and she's come here, It's okay, Like we got it. 531 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:04,400 And there were tears, and it was a real privilege to be able 532 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,119 to introduce those two amazing women and to watch them heal each other. And 533 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:14,000 the most interesting thing that I take from every time I talk with Kathy, 534 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:16,920 because she says it a number of different times in her book, in the 535 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,880 panel that she did with you and Brian and Renee, she says that talking 536 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:29,159 about it helps her heal, and I think that's amazing, And so I 537 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,400 like the fact that crime con offers a place for people like Kathy and Jane 538 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,480 and everyone else who has suffered to be able to heal by talking about it 539 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,239 if that's what they need, And if they don't want to talk about it, 540 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,079 that's fine too. They can meet other people and gather resources and things. 541 00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:51,400 But I like the fact that there is so much dialogue around this is 542 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:57,519 experience, both shared and individual, and here is how we can build a 543 00:40:57,559 --> 00:41:02,360 community that is going to help people survive it and thrive in spite of it. 544 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,440 And one of the things that's worth noting is that, for instance, 545 00:41:07,559 --> 00:41:13,840 with James Burrowsky, who survived the Connecticut Valley serial killers still unidentified after all 546 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,559 these years, and Kathy Kleiner, who's better known as surviving Ted Bundy, 547 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,840 so many of these other people that you meet a crime con they're incredibly positive 548 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:29,840 people. And so there's actually a lot of joy and a fair amount of 549 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:36,199 laughter, and people are having fun and people are celebrating being alive. And 550 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:44,119 you can't have people like Cheryl McCollum and so many other people, Joseph Scott 551 00:41:44,199 --> 00:41:51,639 Morgan and I could just keep naming names. They're just incredibly positive, joyful, 552 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:57,400 life affirming people. And so even though they deal with some very heavy 553 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,480 issues and work with sur and helping to solve cases and just deal with some 554 00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:09,440 heavy stuff, they're also joyful, fun caring people who are really so great 555 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,239 to be around. It's very inspiring. Yeah, yeah, it really is. 556 00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:17,400 And so that does mean when you're having to figure out, Okay, 557 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,119 am I going to listen to Joe Scott Morgan? Am I going to go 558 00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:23,800 listen to Kathy? Am I going to go listen to Nancy Grace? Do 559 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,679 what Nancy Grace do? You have to make a lot of hard decisions. 560 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,199 So on Saturday, as always, you and I had to figure out where 561 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,400 are we going, what are we doing, who's going to be in the 562 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,400 booth? And we did have to figure out what are my absolute musts? 563 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:45,119 Right, So I actually only had one absolute must for Saturday, like it 564 00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:50,000 was a non negotiable. It was absolutely had to go listen to doctor Anne 565 00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:58,000 Burgess talk about her work at Quanticout and that blew me away. Wow, 566 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,440 it was amazing. And the fact that I got to go with podcast Overlord 567 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,320 Tim Pilari and Jemmamel and go listen too. It was like, not only 568 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,679 do I get to listen to this amazing lady, I get to do it 569 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:14,000 with two amazing podcasters. Like how cool is this? What is my life 570 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,599 like? How did I get this privilege to be here? It was so 571 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:22,320 cool? God, she is absolutely amazing. What a firecracker, what energy 572 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:28,920 and what an amazing mind. She is so intelligent and just so completely amazing. 573 00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:31,400 I adored her session. It was so cool. Yeah, now there's 574 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,800 one I missed but would love to hear another time. And by the way, 575 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,679 a number of these sessions are available. Fox recorded a number of sessions 576 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:46,119 and we'll put links in the show notes here. And crime Con also has 577 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:52,039 a subscriber level that you can join that would also allow you to hear and 578 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:58,199 see a number of these presentations. So there are ways to enjoy crime Con 579 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,159 online. We have so much more information that we want to share about our 580 00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:07,079 time at crime Con, and of course we have to share all about the 581 00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:12,000 panel that Bill was on with Renee Williams and Kathy Kleiner, Rubin and Brian 582 00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:15,599 attend. So we are going to continue our coverage of crime Con and our 583 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:21,079 after action report in a second episode. That's going to do it for this 584 00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:23,800 episode, but please stay tuned for our next one. Thank you so much 585 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:37,320 for listening to mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over 586 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:44,719 Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers 587 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,559 are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 588 00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:54,320 Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership 589 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:59,840 with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or 590 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:04,719 Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 591 00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:08,280 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five 592 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,159 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.