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You is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window
dot com and listeners like you. Yeah

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now in our media chat o'lly February
fifteen, twenty twenty four Allegedly, according

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to that thing we call a calendar, this is the o'celly effect, which

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coincidentally went live for the first time
on a broadcast platform of any sort exactly

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ten years ago on February fifteenth,
twenty fourteen. Okay, so here we

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go. That's when it went live. There were podcasts before that in the

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previous year and all that good stuff. But hey, if you're signed up

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at Ocelli dot com and you're receiving
the archive emails as we go, then

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you already know this because you got
the earliest Ocelli effects that were recorded and

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never aired live anywhere in that set. But look, I'm not here to

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talk about that, not all.
We're here to continue on with not just

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the tradition of the Ocelli effect,
but how about this. At twenty fourteen,

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I met this guy named Carmine Savastano. How did we meet each other?

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Effectively? I believe it had something
to do with these groups on Facebook.

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I know Facebook, But anyway,
Yeah, twenty fourteen is calling you

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and asking you about useless things.
Anyway, twenty fourteen, it was Facebook,

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all right, and there was these
groups on Facebook like JFK Hucksters myth

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Makers. Actually there wasn't myth makers. It was like Huckster's sham artists,

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I forget, but basically a whole
bunch of stuff where it was like people

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that are fake and bs in the
JFK assassination realm of alleged research of information

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streams, and there were people on
Facebook and groups complaining about it, in

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addition to the JFK Venor group,
which you know was run by a guy

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who was really actually pretty curious.
But I don't want to talk about Facebook

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groups either way. This suggestion was
made that I should talk to this guy,

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Carmine Savastano, and he had been
working on a book, and I

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wasn't sure if the book was published
at that point or anything. Anyhow,

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I decided to talk to Carmine because
his book was about three assassinations tepoc tpaak

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dot com. You go there.
That stands for two Princes and a King,

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which happens to be the title of
that book, and it was a

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concise review of three assassinations from the
nineteen sixties, the two princes being the

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Kennedy Brothers JFK RFK and King being
doctor Martin Luther King Jr. All of

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them assassinated in the nineteen sixties,
as you well know. So I'm rehashing

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stuff. Why Carmine wanted to talk
about his book, of course, and

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we did, and we formed a
friendship at that point in time, and

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one of the bases for that friendship
was him and I both complaining about people

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spreading ridiculous nonsense and alleging that it
was information that wasvaluable in the case yup

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our complaint over what this was.
And I told him then, I really

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want to do shows about the myths. And we didn't use the word myths

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at first. Actually we had to
debate a bit about what to call it,

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but it was like fake crap in
the JFK community is what we were

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thinking of, little more blunt,
less refined to a title. But either

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way, I said, Carmen,
you got to do this with me.

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And he has sixteen episodes all together
over the years. The last one was

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actually some years ago, in twenty
twenty, but we started in twenty fifteen

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with episode one. Episode three,
markedly one of the episodes we dedicated to

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Judith Barry Baker. But it's not
all about Judy. It's all about getting

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that all of the misinformation, disinformation, nonsense, poorly reviewed, researched nonsense

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that's out there regarding the JFK case
and JFK Myths was born one of the

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most valuable series that we've done here
on the O'Kelly effect. And how do

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I know that because I keep getting
told it. Didn't know it would be

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as big or as many episodes as
it was. I thought we might do

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five to ten and be done,
but people have been asking, So here

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we go again in the year twenty
twenty four, going further with the JFK

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Myths series and with me tonight is
Mike Swanson, the guy behind Wallstreet Window

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dot com be in the No Go
to Wall Street Window. I don't just

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tell you that I recommend his writings
his books because he's a sponsor here.

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Nope, I recommended them before he
was a sponsor, but he is a

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sponsor of theo'cell dot com network.
Thing is I recommend his writing highly because

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he takes very complex things in books
like the War State and why the Vietnam

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War, which is the first in
a series of planned volumes on that conflict.

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Why the Vietnam War or the War
State, both of them authored by

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Mike Swanson. And you'll find that
Mike actually authored a whole bunch of other

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books and partially authored other things on
Amazon, some of them about finance,

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one book about the history of Danville, Virginia, et cetera, et cetera.

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But I'll be frank with you,
I'm not a money guy. I

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didn't read his money books. I
did read some other stuff and even has

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one out there which his dad wrote
that he wrote it forward to. I

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think it's still available in an ebook
form about the Roman Empire. But anyway,

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Mike definitely a student of history and
a student of the JFK case.

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Glad to have him along for JFK
Myths seventeen, but also The War State.

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And that's that read book. By
the way, you see in the

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sidebard to Shelley dot Com with ikegiving
his farewell address about the military industrial complex,

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et cetera. And in case you
didn't know, and if you listen

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to my show, you know,
and also welcome to Planet Earth. You

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know you're listening to this if you
didn't accidentally find it. You know,

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Mike Swanson is Mike, how you
doing tonight that we don't know I'm doing.

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It's great to talk for you in
Carmin and our other special guest right

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who I'm going to get to third
in the order. We have Carmin Sabastano,

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who I just gave another intro to. But he is the author of

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Two Princes and a King, as
I said previously, and also Human time

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Bomb, right, the books that
will be a controversy, as they say,

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on the other side of the island
when we discuss it on the other

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side of the pond. Excuse me, not island on that island on the

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other side of the pond over there
in England. But yeah, Human time

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Bomb, right, there's that about
the human condition and violence in it and

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all that. We'll get there eventually. But Two Princes and a King happily

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sits on my bookshelf, and I
did request that Carmine sign it for me.

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I don't request too many signed books, but you know, my friends,

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I'd like to have a sign book
from its personalized, never going to

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trade it away or give it away, although sometimes they are stolen and actually

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they get stolen a conferences and I'm
gonna make a few other inside jokes,

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but CARMI good to have you back
on the show. Glad to continue the

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midst the how you doing tonight?
Teapoktpaak dot com your website? How are

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you, sir? I'm okay.
It's good to be back. Definitely,

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as we were just discussing before,
I fire a little bit. It's almost

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been a decade, almost seventeen episodes
of this. They just the hits just

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keep coming. Well, what's funny? Is I mean? And we've actually

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created other historical podcasts, you know, where we examined other assassinations and things

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built off of the myths episodes because
we had to go into like Benzi or

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Budo and a few other assassinations,
right yeah, and you know what did

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we do. We did a whole
thing on South America, I mean went

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through Budo, Truilo. We discussed
Patrucia, Mumba and the Congo. You

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know that the lovely Cia hands off
handing him to Mobutu. They didn't kill

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him directly, right, which has
always been what they said, So that

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is true. They didn't kill him
directly, but their station chief in Leopoldville

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did happen to pass on the mbutu
that Lamumbo was trying to kill him,

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which was never proven. Well,
there's that. There's that, and and

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that whole situation where everybody ends up
at a billiard table or something like that.

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Was that tr hello where they all
like the maybe, yeah, I

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think I think that was the one
where yeah, like there's weird standoff.

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Imagine like a presidential palace in the
you know, in the billiard room,

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if you will, and all of
a sudden, people realize there's a whole

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bunch of people planning on killing each
other all in the same room. Magically

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happened. Nobody you know, positioned
people or anything to have that happen.

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Can you detect sarcasm? Anyway,
A lot of stuff we went into,

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even as a matter of fact,
the attempted assassination attempts and various twisted webs

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of stuff in North Korea. We
even went over yeah, yeah, yeah,

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but that's part of the way.
And there's also an episode if you

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can find out, they're called Putna
on the Hits, where we actually went

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over the over a dozen people that
Vladimir Putin either likely or verifiably had murdered

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in the course of his tenure as
a dictator. Right, no judgments or

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anything, just the history if you
will. You know, we do call

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it sinister history because it is kind
of sinister to murder people, but it

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is part of history as well,
so that subset not being covered tonight.

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We're on back onto the myths,
but sometimes it causes us to jump off

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into other directions, and in the
future, by popular demand, we're bringing

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back the myths, might have to
bring in some sinister history as well.

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We'll see what kind of time Carmine
can allow us in the near future,

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because you know, I can only
book people so often, but because of

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the rotations, I have ideas.
Maybe you could trade off with Larry or

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Mike on Thursdays or Wednesdays and we
can build upon our previous work as I

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re release some of this stuff because
it's not available on YouTube like it used

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to be. Anyway, our special
guest, why is he special cause he's

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not usually here for these things or
the show. Matter of fact, I

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don't think he's been on the show
before, and we will refer to him

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as in some circles Scooter. Why, well, that might be because I'd

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like my other two guests tonight co
hosts Tonight and also Joe now is a

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co host because that's what you are
on the myth show. Guess what he

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was at the Lancer conference this year. And there might be a story behind

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the Scooter thing. We're not going
to tell tonight, but if you're aware,

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there might be a reason why we
call Joe Brelli Joe Scooter Brelli.

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Anyway, he does a lot more
than that. He works with Rob Clark,

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the Lone Gunman, all that kind
of stuff. Joe, how would

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you introduce yourself to the audience that
maybe has heard about you on this show

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a little but hasn't heard you on
the show. How would you introduce yourself?

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Joe? Well, Hi, good
evening everyone. I hope I introduced

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myself. I am an avid student
of history, and I started working and

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reading a about World War Two,
and because my grandfather was Norman Dy plus

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ten, he was actually going to
be one of the first waves, but

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my great grandmother died and he left
to go home for a few days,

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which pushed him back a few days. And it's probably why I'm here talking

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to you. And I started making
my way up through history and got to

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the JFK assassination and was like,
what is going on here? Listened,

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read for years, and started doing
my own primary research, your own primary

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research, which eventually led you to
starting to work with Rob Clark. I

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think you were just kind of a
fan of the Lone Gunman podcast. Maybe

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you had heard of mine at some
point previous to this year at Lancer.

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But you and I met at Lancer, and you did a solid presentation there

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with Rob, a recorded one,
and then you were taking questions afterwards about

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the many Martins, if you will, in the JFK case, which is,

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you know, a fascinating tidbit,
not necessarily going to solve the case

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for us, but amazing how many
people there are named Martin that are tied

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to the case in one way or
another, whether filming it, possibly participating

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in it, and everything else.
You guys did an entertaining video presentation there,

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and you know, go ahead and
promote what it is you want to

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promote here in case I forget later. Great, Well, thank you,

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Chuck, I appreciate that. And
yes, it was about the anomaly of

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all these people named Martin showing up
from the early sixties to Watergate and We've

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actually started out as a joke,
Hey we found another Martin, and it

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actually evolved into a very specific deep
dive on a couple of interesting Martins.

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May maybe we'll get into a couple
of them today. One has to do

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with one of the myths of a
Martin that took a very interesting video.

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And yeah, we found a lot
of tidbits and really interesting things. I

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had in our conversation with mister Larry
Hancock on Sunday morning of the conference was

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probably my highlight about some of the
documents I found. I believe Carmine is

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familiar with some of the ones I'm
talking about with James Herbert Martin and Wanda

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Martin. And you know, we
went further on John T. Martin,

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which we'll get into later, and
it really evolved into a more focused investigation

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on a couple Martins. And that's
what really turned heads, not really the

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coincidence of the name. So that's
how I would come to someone up right,

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no ay, fair enough and always
good to have any kind of conversation

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with. Larry Hancock, regular co
host here at ocelly dot com the ocell

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Effect, and now he's on Wednesdays
every other Wednesday, we hear from what

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some people call him Professor Hancock,
but Larry Hancock, the great author of

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many, many books, and I'm
not going to sit here and list them

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because we only got so much time
tonight, but you guys can definitely find

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him in the archive at Ocelli dot
com. And as per usual, we'll

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give you a link to the Lone
Gunman since we mentioned him, and you

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know they're going to also get mentioned
a little later, and the fact that

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Joe was at Lancer is going to
play a part in some of what we're

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going to discuss tonight, But hang
around and you'll find out about it.

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So, with no further ado and
no more of me run in my mouth,

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Carmine, where should we begin,
Miss seventeen? For God's sake,

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where are we beginning here? Well, just for those who didn't hear in

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the last episode, are what we'll
be discussing for a portion of the show,

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what I primarily have been doing research
into and to some of the figures

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that acclaimed it as a series called
Who Killed JFK? By Rob Reiner.

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Oh boy, okay, Well,
first off, I'm gonna get this out

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of a way right away, meathead, does not necessarily understand the assassination.

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Okay, I'm just that's my words. Nobody else said it blame me,

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and I'm not just picking on him
for a role he played. I mean,

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look, you can take a look
at South Park's wonderful parody of him.

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Maybe I'll steal a clip here there
and stick it in during the show

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just for fun. But yeah,
kind of a messy thing and unfortunately got

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a lot of play and was a
huge part of the what conference believe it

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or not this year is this Ryan
presentation and that drives me crazy because a

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lot of it just oh man,
Well, Carmine, go ahead, I

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mean, what can I al turn
it over to you? Man? Okay.

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So, Reiner begins this series during
the period when Jack Ruby would fatally

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attack Lee Harvey Oswald. He recounts
his feelings and ideas when he observed the

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event in television during his youth,
and then he discusses Oswald's statement of being

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a patsy and while certainly Jack Ruby
had mob connections, one officials denied,

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and we've prior offered the FBI informat
documents on the show, and I do

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believe in the Lone Gunmen as well
that show he was an FBI former,

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right, and his first visitor in
Joe following Oswald's death was one of the

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Campezee Brothers local Dellas mobsters that we're
familiar with Ruby, but without these specifics

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in the show, anything about Ruby's
criminal past, it just veers from there

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into broadcasts from the day of the
assassination and Rhyner's personal experience following the assassination.

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The narrator Solidad O'Brien states that Rob
Reiner is a great storyteller, and

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I hardily agree. Yeah, look, maybe maybe, Look, let's let's

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reserve judgment and be objective. Perhaps
he is a good storyteller. Oh no,

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I think he's a good storyteller,
you know, but I agree.

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On the other hand, best didn't
go it down. Now I'm not reading

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food. I'm Rob Ryinan and you've
just been reined. Come onye boys,

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let's make our escape. There you
go, okay, so, Reiner states.

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He discussed the Kennedy assassination with political
satirist Mort Sahl, who was skeptical

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of the government's findings. Reiner notes
that he read Mark Laine's book Rush to

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Judgment, and that in his mind
it took a part the Warrant Commission.

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However, Mark A. Laine's book
and later film contains some inaccuracies and outright

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myths which I've already been reviewed on
the Acheli effect, and I've touched upon

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different versions of that I do believe
on the Goodman Podcast as well the Lone

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Gunman. Look, it's been covered
on quick Hits and to be generous about

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this, and I think we should
be when it comes to Mark Lane,

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because Mark Lane, quite honestly did
a lot more good for the case than

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bad in my opinion. On balance, he's definitely a positive figure. I

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think he's a positive figure in that
he publicized the case more right so that

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more of the public had access.
Well, not only fortunately, what he

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used to publicize the case is highly
questionable sometimes well sometimes, But on the

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other hand, you're talking about the
nineteen sixties, you're not talking about the

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hs Y. No, No,
he didn't have access. I'm not saying

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that it's his fault because he should
have had more evidence. I'm saying that

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he just like when he pretended to
be I mentioned I think I might mention

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this later when I'm going over him
being used one of his claims being used

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as a reference. He did impersonate
officials to get witness testimony, okay,

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time true. He did do some
dishonest things. True. And you know,

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some of the representations that he made
regarding say, you know, trying

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to represent Oswald and things like that
in his interests not necessary. But you

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know, to me a couple of
factors here. First of all, the

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amount of information somebody's working with in
nineteen sixty four or five, which is

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when he starts making statements, and
he's making presentations into the seventies again,

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before HSCA, before Oliver Stones movie, before the ARRB, before a lot

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of us, had a lot of
access to a lot of things. Coupled

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with the fact that he was also
what primarily a lawyer and a politician,

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means that I think it's inevitable that, you know, there's going to be

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some sketchy stuff happening, and that's
a guarantee with Lane. So I kind

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of I don't think that takes away
from what he did prove that that was

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deficient about the commission. I just
think that has to be put on balance.

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Sure, sure, but I mean, you know, the things that

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he did that set back you know, and made people look bad. But

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again, he hasn't made witnesses not
want to talk to other people. I

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mean, how many other interviewers were
then denied well by those witnesses. Right,

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well, but see if that goes
back to witness contamination, which believe

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it or not. Even if you
can directly point to Lane doing damage there,

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I can point to a lot of
other people doing a lot worse damage

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than Lane. Oh yeah, yeah. Regarding that, I'm just saying his

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book isn't some sort of the way
that Minor frames. It is the way

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that I've heard a frame before.
It's not some sort of bible. No

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one JFK book has all the answers. In fact, all of them put

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together don't have all the answers.
Yeah, well that's just so yeah,

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but there you go. And we
run into this a lot with people with

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David Lifton's book as well. Best
evidence where best evidence. That's it,

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that's the end all be all.
And it's like, look, first of

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all, nineteen eighty when that was
published the first time, I think,

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and you know, David Lifton is
part of the first generation of researchers.

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Indeed, even though he didn't publish
it a way later and again, I'm

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actually going to give the Reiner some
credit. And I believe Lane mentioned it

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too. That's probably where he got
the cats what I'm about to say next,

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But I will give some credit.
They had at least a couple of

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good ideas in the thing, so
I try to at least give, you

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know, be even handed with it. When they get something right, I

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try to mention it. But for
the most part, fair enough. So

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let's tear into this and go to
the facts, please, Carmons. Okay,

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So, the series mentions the Katzenbach
Memo, a document written by Nicholas

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Katzenbach, who serves as the Kennedy
administration's deputy Attorney General and later the Johnson

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administration's attorney General. In the memo, the Katzenbach clearly states that the public

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must be convinced that Oswald is a
lone gunman, and while it is not

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a smoking gun for an assassination conspiracy, it does prove the early formation of

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an official cover up. Unlike most
of the material Reiner has offered thus far,

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only this memo, a verifiable document, has, in my view,

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on the actual value the concealment and
destruction of evidence is certainly underway. This

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point in the timelining grows over time, as we have learned in more recent

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days, the Katz and Bacha memo
for their offers, the President's Commission was

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tasked by its creators with delivery Noswald
to the public as the loan guilty party.

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Further, Allen Dulles being placed upon
the Commission was indeed a means for

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some of the agencies, such as
James Angleton, to influence and eventually take

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the investigation from those first personnel order
to investigate. Now that youwithstanding, that

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is basically the only thing in the
early episodes that I think has any value.

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So then he shifts gears and begins
to discuss the military industrial complex and

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the devisive nature of military leadership that
opposed Kennedy's policies. Some claim that military

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leaders are responsible for the assassination or
their determination to enter a war with Cuba

301
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serves as reasoning for such ideas.
However, a military leader, in my

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00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.920
view, had much to lose and
conspiring against JFK. And Further, it

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was during this period of the Cold
War in which military had nearly ceased his

304
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ceaselessly setbacks due to poor planning and
the lack of significant forethought. While it's

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00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.759
possible, because anything is possible,
military leaders conspired, it was some of

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the same leadership and their proteges that
delivered US enormous military failures in Korea,

307
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Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and
Cambodia. Certainly, a war or military

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action is more complicated to plan than
the assassination of a single leader, but

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some clarity about those purported who have
conspired is useful, and some verifiable evidence

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would be as well. Reiner offers
neither. Reiner then met with author Dick

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Russell and sources his book The Man
Who Knew Too Much, which supports the

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claims of Richard case Neguel. Miguel
is an often mentioned figure that claimed he

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entered a bank and fired into the
air prior to the Kennedy assassination because of

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his supposed fore knowledge. Negel states
that years following the actual events, that

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he wanted to be in custody so
that conspirators would being able to force him

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to participate. Their claims, he
states are that he possessed identification matching the

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Harvey Oswald's alias, but there is
far more to Negul's story. Negel was

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00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.200
indeed a member of army intelligence during
the nineteen fifties. By years prior to

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00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.039
his claims, he was the only
survivor of a plane crash from which he

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00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:21.359
bore serious mental and physical scoars.
This left him, according to his superiors

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and colleagues, less stable. Eventually, Negul's family would abandon him after his

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increasing erratic behavior and following a period
of unemployment, Negal soon became homeless and

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00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.359
began living in his car. Likely
from desperation, he attempted to plan a

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crime with other unnamed individuals, one
of which shot him in the chest.

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These are the events prior of prior
months and weeks preceding the bank episode that

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00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.960
so many have placed faith in,
and certainly would allow one to question the

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00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:53.200
veracity of his claims. I was
sent the Alpaso police reports from the incident

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00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:57.319
by researcher Steve Rowe and was able
to verify that, instead of the dramatic

329
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:03.039
episode Negual would report, the event
was a failed robbery. The evidence offers

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that Miguel entered the bank demanding money, shot into the teller window and not

331
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into the ceiling, then attempted to
flee the scene, who was later apprehended

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00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.559
by police trying to escape in his
car. Items found in Miguel's vehicle some

333
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:21.160
claim link him to Oswald and the
Central Intelligence Agency, but these ideas,

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too, are not supported by evidence. The documents, upon closer review,

335
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.480
do not match the alias of Oswald
and the CIA. Names in this possession

336
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:33.000
were likely former contacts or related to
past military intelligence operations, and don't prove

337
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:37.640
a more recent connection with the agency. Okay, I'd like to pause right

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there to give the other panelists a
chance to address Richard case Neguel and the

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00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.960
claims, and let me play Devil's
advocate for ten seconds here and say that,

340
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look, you know, just because
it's not in the police report doesn't

341
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.839
mean it didn't happen. You know, Cops leaving things out of police reports

342
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:03.200
or misrepresenting things in police reports is
something that I do commonly see and well,

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depending on well, just hang on
and depending on circumstances. I mean,

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you could have completely benign explanations for
missing mentions of evidence, missing collections

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00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.799
of evidence, representations from the police, etc. Don't worry, Carmine,

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You're gonna get back around to it. But I want to give Mike and

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00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.680
Joe both a chance to comment on
Richard Case Miguel, the claims in general,

348
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and what it is we know about
him and his circumstance because he's also

349
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tied to the Garrison investigation and a
few other things that people have talked about

350
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:41.839
over the years. So, Mike, you have any anything to offer regarding

351
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:47.720
Richard Case Miguel. What you think
of the claims, the representations by you

352
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.160
know, either Dick Russell or the
people have kind of you know, grabbed

353
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onto him as somebody. I mean, he's even mentioned quite prominently in one

354
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of the books I highly recommend,
which is you know, JFK and The

355
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Unspeakable and uh well, you know
right there there's quite a bit of mention

356
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:11.839
by doctor Douglas regarding the veracity of
his claims and things like that. Again,

357
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.720
you know, doctor Douglas, nobody's
perfect. But you know, what

358
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.400
can I say? I have mixed
feelings about Case Miguel and the reliability of

359
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.680
the story, the claims, et
cetera. What do you think, Mike?

360
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:30.640
Do you have any views on this? Mike? Did I put you

361
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.400
to sleep? Mike? Maybe he's
talking to his mute button. Okay,

362
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.759
well, yeah, I just had
the mute button on good Yeah, so

363
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.559
he figures prominently he's the basis of
a book written by Dick Russell called The

364
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.440
Man Who Knew Too Much Right,
which was it must have come out in

365
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:57.920
the late nineteen nineties early two thousands, and this book has been one of

366
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:04.359
the main sources of the Rob Reiner
a podcast series, and he's in Russell

367
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:08.519
himself as a main consultant on the
series, and a lot of his ideas

368
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:15.480
appeared to have been either injected into
the series or the basis of the series,

369
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:25.359
which we may get to inte later. For well, I'll talk about

370
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.880
that after we talk about Nagel,
because he names someone that could be a

371
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:34.240
masterminded assassination in his book, which
is also and he fingers in Reiner fingers

372
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:41.599
in the podcast. But as far
as Nagel goes, yeah, the book.

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When I went through my first phase
of being interested in the Kennedy assassination,

374
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it was right before it was a
year or two or three before the

375
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Oliver Stone movie came out and all
these and there's a wave of Kennedy assassination

376
00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:04.160
books that were big sellers, and
this lasted I don't know, five six,

377
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:08.799
seven years, and the Russell book
was one of the last books in

378
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:15.240
this wave that had a giant splash
and also ended up being one of the

379
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:19.920
last books I read during that phase
back then of my first interest in this

380
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.400
and he it's it's he's a great
writer. It's it's very well written.

381
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:33.240
Uh, and it's a good it
It's it's a he makes Nagel a good

382
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:37.960
story, an interesting character because he
talks about how he you know, it's

383
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:45.440
gotten information from him, but he's
Nagel's holding back. But the big story

384
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:53.079
with Nagel, Uh that get gets
your interest is that before the assassination,

385
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:02.319
Uh, he goes into a bank
and uh takes the gun out. Yeah,

386
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.839
CARMI just covered all that, you
know, basically, and yeah,

387
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.599
I just want to add here that
the first publication of The Man Who Knew

388
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.920
Too Much was in nineteen ninety three, and then a very very much changed

389
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:18.240
and updated version was released ten years
later in two thousand and three. I'm

390
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:21.960
not sure how many times it's been
reprinted so on and so forth. But

391
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:26.400
Yeah, indeed, Russell's an excellent
writer in general objectively, But what Carman

392
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:34.440
did is kind of debunked that story
of him, you know, the story

393
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.640
of this guy goes to the bank
and he shoots himself, shoots the gun

394
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.680
because he wants to get arrested so
he can avoid being implicated in the assassination

395
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.599
or framed or it's caught up in
it. Karma pretty well has debunked that

396
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:51.480
through the documents to make it look
like it probably had to improve that.

397
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:55.000
It probably had nothing to do with
assassination at all. You know, at

398
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.880
least the story was not as different
from not as presented, you know,

399
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.680
because has presented in the book,
because of the the whole contradiction there about

400
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.759
you know, this sort of like, uh, it's just the innocent kind

401
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.319
of move here to get himself arrested
on purpose and not really try to do

402
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.799
anything criminal. Uh. He didn't
even attempt to flee the scene was the

403
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.119
original, you know, the the
concept. Yeah, but the answer to

404
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.559
answer your question myself about what I
think a Nagel Uh, you know,

405
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.599
when I read the book, I
mean it was He's very interesting. His

406
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.559
interesting story is a great you know, the book influenced me honestly. Uh.

407
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:36.079
When I initially read it, Uh, it put me one direction of

408
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:41.400
thinking, I don't really have as
much anymore, but I don't really put

409
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:48.440
much cretence or importance anymore in the
Nagel story. Myself, I don't I

410
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.960
don't really see it helping me,
you know, figure out who was behind

411
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:59.880
the assassination or larger questions. It's
just a to me, a minor story.

412
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.000
And there's lots and lots of these
stories that cropped up over the years,

413
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:08.039
and you know, they don't seem
to really really go anywhere in the

414
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:13.079
end. Well, and it goes
a little deeper too, because again this

415
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:15.680
is during my early years of interest
as well, when this book was hot

416
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:20.880
and it first dropped because I got
in at about eighty eight, as I've

417
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.519
said, you know, around the
twenty fifth anniversary, and didn't get serious

418
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:28.759
until probably shortly after this. So
I guarantee this book had influence on me

419
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:30.400
because it was one of those you
know, brand new, have to go

420
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:34.839
to the bookstore and go get it
books that I had heard about, you

421
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:39.440
know, pre internet and all that. So it was influential, and one

422
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:44.319
could say that it continues to be. And Russell again was another presenter at

423
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.839
Lancer this year as well as I
think he presented it WET and other conferences.

424
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.599
I think he was at three conferences
this year alone and again a solid

425
00:32:52.640 --> 00:33:00.519
writer for entertainment value now as historical
precedent. Another question, Joe, do

426
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:05.720
you have any views on the Man
who Knew Too Much? Yeah, I

427
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.880
am kind of on the same page
as you and Mike and Carmine. I

428
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:20.599
have a lot of skepticism towards the
story, especially the comment of or the

429
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.359
story of the cop asking him you
didn't really mean to rob that bank,

430
00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:32.440
and Nagel allegedly says, you're a
pretty smart cop, aren't you. That

431
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.400
just doesn't sit well with me.
Well, and I have a lot of

432
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:43.880
skepticism towards Miguel and the story,
but I agree, I think stories are

433
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.480
going to play a main theme in
this episode, and it is a really

434
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:57.079
good story, interesting story. It's
semi relevant, and that's kind of my

435
00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:59.640
take on it. No fair enough, and look, I mean there's a

436
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.119
lot more to it. The whole
idea that he was supposedly following Oswald around

437
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:06.160
at some point people had claimed that
he was set up, he was going

438
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.440
to have to kill Oswald to either
prevent or participate in the assassination. A

439
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:15.599
whole lot of stuff there that's alleged. And again, he's also a guy

440
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.960
that I believe is you know,
the story is that he met with Garrison,

441
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.639
somebody threw a grenade at him.
He presents Garrison with the grenade and

442
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:27.719
says, yeah, not going to
testify for you, Pale. You know,

443
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.480
I'm condensing stories here as quickly as
I can because I don't want to

444
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.800
stay on it too much for good. Yeah, well, I just wanted

445
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.559
to answer your question from earlier before
I moved on with the gal more information

446
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:44.000
about him. But so the reason
why is it's not just the police report.

447
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.159
It's the police report and multiple witness
statements that I'll corroborate each other at

448
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:53.119
michal So either they did a conspiracy
to frame him up and change everything that

449
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:58.639
happened, or it didn't happen the
way the gal said. What's more likely

450
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.760
standable? But again, Devil's advocate, right, who collected the witness statements.

451
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.239
Well, and that's fine, but
how much I'm just saying it becomes

452
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:12.119
a conspiracy to just try to stop
in the gel And he gives no reason,

453
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.079
as I'm about to go into to
anybody why he did it at the

454
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:19.119
time. It's only years later he
starts to contrive these ideas. Yeah,

455
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.719
I know, and then there's there's
nothing at the time that proves anything about

456
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.000
what he says. There is no
contemporary evidence or statement he ever made,

457
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:29.760
not even in the court of law
when he had the opportunity, no right,

458
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.679
and even the whole you know game
that went on regarding foot lockers and

459
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:36.719
trying to find supposed yeah exactly,
Yeah, where he was lining to the

460
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:39.920
police and sending them a wild goose. I mean, he's obviously not a

461
00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:45.519
credible source because he changes his story
so much and invents so much. He's

462
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:51.800
a messy source. And ultimately I
conclude personally that it is probably likely as

463
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.960
a result of head trauma, you
know, really, yeah, that some

464
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:58.320
of this goes on. But go
ahead, Yeah, I was just gonna

465
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:01.719
say in the past, and I
still do feel bad for Negual, and

466
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:07.960
Russell masterfully writes him as a dramatic
character to feel bad for and to believe.

467
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.639
But ultimately Neguel has no sources,
has no real proof, and has

468
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:17.320
had to alter his history to make
it fit into the book. So moving

469
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.039
forward, go ahead, Yeah,
Well, and I bring him up because

470
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.639
he's actually one of the sources for
the later assassins, and because Russell just

471
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:29.880
keeps throwing Negul into this like he
mattered to the first of all, he's

472
00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:32.599
such a minor figure, he's better
Okay anyway, so here I'll continue and

473
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.760
finish him and then you know,
okay, so yeah, get back to

474
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:44.199
the notes, Okay. So I
also might consider I would add that Negle

475
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:49.599
attempted suicide multiple times following his arrest
and sat in jail for months without giving

476
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.679
any explanation for his actions. His
arrest a cart September twentieth, nineteen sixty

477
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.840
three, and preceded Oswald's employment at
the Texas school Book Depository on October fifteenth

478
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.320
by nearly a month, and there
is no verifiable link between the two men

479
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:07.079
that has been proven. It was
not until years later when a gual presented

480
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:13.559
his ideas that a JFK connection was
seemingly created. Reiner states teaming with journalist

481
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.920
Dick Russell, and they would travel
to interview several multiple people connected to the

482
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:22.320
case. They met with persons varying
from Buel Fraser, noted for his testimony

483
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:27.480
changes over time to the holy unreliable
William Robert Tosh Plumley, who claimed to

484
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:30.239
be a CIA asset that flew a
team of men into stop the Kennedy assassination

485
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:36.800
among I'm sorry as soon as you
mentioned Tosh Plumley, I just have no

486
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:44.119
choice but to got to make an
exasperated expression because it's just Tosh Plumley is

487
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.440
a source for many, many things
that turn into JFK Mitz later, but

488
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:55.000
go ahead. Among those included in
the myth are Watergate burglar and former CIA

489
00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:00.719
officer I Howard Hunt and mafia hitman
Johnny ROSSELLI. Reiner followed Hello, these

490
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.760
seriously flawed claims with the statement quote, I want the truth. It seemingly

491
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:09.760
every turn no evidence is offered to
prove what is claimed. Now what's interesting

492
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.840
to me too, is that they're
just thrown in. These are just three

493
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.079
extra people in the conspiracy that are
unrequired because none of them are named.

494
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:23.960
Does an assassin of the mastermind.
So these three guys plus Plumbly, Okay,

495
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:28.320
the numbers are just starting to increase
to where it gets more and more

496
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:30.920
unlikely what is being proposed. But
anyway, so getting back to it,

497
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:37.840
utilizing documents and I Chuck have discussed
this in the past for those who might

498
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:42.800
have heard it the show that we
discussed this, I'm not actually gonna try

499
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.360
to work on some articles that will
nail this down, so there'll be articles

500
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:46.599
that people can link to to go
to, to read, and go to

501
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.119
the documents about some of these guys, because they keep popping up even in

502
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.880
the Rhiner series, as we'll see. So utilizing documents in the Federal Beer

503
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:58.840
of Investigation and Plumbly Zone statements,
we can easily disprove the airplane journey or

504
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:02.679
board team story, the later named
version of related earlier claims. Notably,

505
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:07.639
Robert Plumley's story was not offered to
investigators until the nineteen nineties, when film

506
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.000
producer Bob Vernon presented it while set
upon developing a related book or film.

507
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:16.920
If we look when at official documents
from decades earlier, Plumbley was arrested several

508
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:22.639
times and confessed to officials quote that
he has admitted to making up names of

509
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:29.480
persons allegedly contacted by him. Additionally, the CIA internally reviewed its files after

510
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:34.800
the Vernon claims and found no documents
related to employing Plumblee during the nineteen sixties.

511
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.599
Plumblee continues, I'm sorry, go
ahead, oh no, right later

512
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:43.360
on he's later on, yep,
yeah, but go ahead, oh yeah,

513
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.840
no, no, yeah, And
that's what I think Plumbley draws upon

514
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.519
is that he later had connection with
the CIA. Yeah, to then say

515
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:52.119
that, well, of course,
you know, I was secretly anyway.

516
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:59.960
So Plumbley continues to be jailed for
various crimes in the period before the assassination,

517
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.679
which would likely render him too notable
for use by any thinking conspirator.

518
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:10.199
A Bureau interview of Plumbly conducted in
nineteen seventy six contains questions about his past

519
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:15.159
associations with the aforementioned hit man,
Johnny Roselli, and Plumbly responds to them

520
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:20.519
he quote did not see Roselli from
nineteen sixty three to nineteen sixty eight.

521
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.199
Thus, in his own words,
and without fore knowledge of his future claims,

522
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:27.639
Rubert Plumley disproves the very essence of
his story, and the rest of

523
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:34.440
his claims dissolve lacking merit. My
favorite Tosh Plumbley claim is having witnessed the

524
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.920
assassination from the other side of the
street, by the way, which is

525
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:43.920
you know, yeah, trying to
steal from Sherriff Feaster. Yeah wow,

526
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:49.679
really really strange claim, and Vernon
wound up collecting it, and of course

527
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:55.239
our friend Wim Dankbar, our friend
sarcastically you know, later on gathers him

528
00:40:55.320 --> 00:41:00.760
into I don't know, one,
two, three videos where he's you know,

529
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.880
doing the whole here's Tosh plumbley uh
connecting. Let me see, let

530
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.199
me think about this for a second. Let's see James Files. He's connected

531
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:15.760
to that story another myth. Yeah, and and of course then there's the

532
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:19.840
other guy who claims to be one
of the tramps. Right, Oh,

533
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:28.280
I know who you're talking about.
Yeah, Chauncey Phillips Holt Holts Holts Holts.

534
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:30.519
Right. So he's in the Chauncey
Holt story, he's in the James

535
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:37.079
Files story. He's mix. Yeah, he just winds up cross pollinating throughout

536
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.280
all that mess. He's in Judy's
too, I believe in some versions.

537
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.880
I don't know, maybe he's in
judy story. Well it's hard to keep

538
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.840
track with Judy, but you know, bigger of course anyhow, But please

539
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:51.199
continue, Okay. So nevertheless,
just for the information of the listener,

540
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:54.280
I want to offer further evidence and
information about plumbly supposed passengers, just so

541
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:58.480
we can nail that down. It
just so happens, I was able to

542
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.559
locate both effort Howard Hunt and Felipe
O Saco aka John and Rosselli on the

543
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.639
day in question, and we discussed
it here on the Ocelli Effect. Prior

544
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.360
Rosselli, unknown to Tash Plumley and
others who attempted to utilize him for their

545
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:15.280
stories following his death in varying myths, were unaware that the FBI had been

546
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:20.559
trailing Rosselli for months with informants and
physical surveillance. This included the period in

547
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.239
which President Kennedy was assassinated. The
Bureau had multiple teams following Rossali's movements and

548
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:29.239
used informants to monitors possible future plans
while also staking out his apartment in Los

549
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:35.360
Angeles. Officials noted that November eighteenth, nineteen sixty three, Rosselli was observed

550
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.519
with Maurice Friedman and two female campaigns
leaving a hotel in Arizona and took a

551
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:43.039
flight to later register at the Desert
In Motel, where Rosselli was a member

552
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.800
of its country club in Las Vegas. Simultaneously, the FBI observed Rosili's apartment

553
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:52.639
during that period in Los Angeles and
noted there were no signs of activity for

554
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:57.239
days after President Kennedy's assassination. The
only records of any plane ride taken by

555
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.719
Rosselli in that period were his relocation
to different hotels, the last one in

556
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:05.519
Las Vegas, not Dallas. When
Roselli himself was called before a congressional leaders

557
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.960
regarding his location November twenty second,
nineteen sixty three, he responded, quote,

558
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.480
let me put it to you this
way, the morning the president was

559
00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:16.280
assassinated, I was asleep in bed
at the Desert End hotel. Based upon

560
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:21.800
FBI surveillance, informant tips, and
even the gangster himself, Johnny Roselli was

561
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.800
not in Dallas but Las Vegas when
the events and Deally Plazas transpired, right,

562
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.400
kind of eliminating him as a shooter. So before we go to a

563
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:31.760
break, which I'm going to do
at about ten after here, I want

564
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:37.239
to get both Mike and Joe's view. I'll start with Joe this time,

565
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.440
if we don't, if he doesn't
mind, you know anything you want to

566
00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:46.000
add here regarding Tosh Plumley or the
cross pollination or that part of it,

567
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:58.000
which is again featured in Rob Reiner's
set of JFK podcasts. Joe, Yes,

568
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:07.519
it's not my area of expertise,
I really can't shed any more context

569
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.440
than Carmine just did on it.
No fair enough. But I mean,

570
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:15.880
if you have the FBI having this
guy under surveillance because he was an organized

571
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.800
crime figure and was definitely a person
of interest to the FBI at the time,

572
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.239
Yeah, I think Johnny Rosselli was
nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Kind of

573
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:28.920
hard to put a gun in his
hand in Dally Plaza, just saying,

574
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.360
I mean, look, you could
add in the the other mafia stuff if

575
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:37.000
you wanted to. And people have
misrepresented him as everything from the Godfather of

576
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:40.880
Los Angeles. Uh, I can't
believe I just uttered that phrase, but

577
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:46.239
they've tried to say that to what
was he the Hollywood don was another one?

578
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:51.039
Right? Uh? Yeah, he's
just the biggest, the biggest mobster

579
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:53.320
at certain times out there, that's
all. Yeah, it wasn't. He

580
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:58.400
has had no official ranking in the
mob beyond being one of Ginkana's men.

581
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:04.239
Right. And here's what the there's
probably one hundred let's call them, Italian

582
00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:10.079
businessman that you can find directly connected
to Hollywood, more involved than Hollywood exerting

583
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:17.440
influence, extortion, etc. In
Hollywood during this entire time period. Let's

584
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.119
go nineteen fifty three to nineteen seventy
three, and Johnny Roselli's one of them,

585
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.519
but not even one of the most
prominent ones, or the most active

586
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:30.039
ones, or the most profitable ones
that we know of for certain. And

587
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.880
I'm telling you it's not hard to
make up a list of about one hundred

588
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:37.800
guys if you want. But anyway, Joe, I appreciate it. Look,

589
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:38.960
if you don't know, you don't
know, and that's fine, but

590
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:45.320
go ahead and check it out.
I'm sure you'll find that Carmen's documentation is

591
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.880
very good on this. And I
think that if the FBI didn't know where

592
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.440
he was on the twenty second,
that would be one thing. But seems

593
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.280
to me like he might be telling
the truth when he said he was asleep

594
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:59.360
in bed at the Desert inn.
Mike, do you have any views are

595
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.519
on sure Roselli or or or the
cross pollination of Josh Plumley or any of

596
00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:09.079
this. The Pumby story, to
me, it's just a useless story.

597
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:15.639
I mean, it's just a useless
story. Roselli is a more important character.

598
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.679
You know, he was a real
really you know, we know a

599
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:23.920
lot of real things about Johnny Roselli. And he really was hooked up with

600
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:30.199
the mob. He really was a
go between of the Mob and the Central

601
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:39.320
Intelligence Agency. He had dealings,
you know, with William Harvey. But

602
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:45.239
that doesn't mean he was involved in
the assassination of President Canny, right,

603
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.679
not JFK. The assassination at once
on Fidel Castro is yet another story though,

604
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:59.639
and he was plotting or contacted two
get involved in that. But that

605
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:06.480
plot, the mafia plot against Castro, didn't go anywhere. But all that

606
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:09.719
said, you know, Roselli had
a bad ending to his own life.

607
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.639
He ended up in a drum in
the in the ocean soon before well actually

608
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:22.239
after he testified to the Church Committee. So you know, well, I

609
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:24.760
don't know why he ended up in
that drum, but he did. Yeah.

610
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:27.719
Well look, there's a lot of
ways you can end up in a

611
00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:30.840
drum when you're involved in certain businesses. And the thing is, you know,

612
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:32.519
a lot of people make the claim
that well before he could testify he

613
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:36.679
ended up in the drum. He
actually testified to the Church committee. We

614
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:40.599
have that. Yeah, he testified. I mean, was he killed because

615
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:45.519
of that? I don't know.
He could have been killed because of some

616
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:50.119
other reason. Because a lot of
monsters get killed. So look, I

617
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:52.320
mean they either get killed or they
go to jail. Listen, that's just

618
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.639
the way it ends in a lot
of cases. I mean, that's what

619
00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:01.599
you know the world anyway, Look, Mike, speaking of useless information,

620
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:06.400
I'm gonna put Carmine on pause for
a moment here because you have a previous

621
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:09.280
engagement you're gonna have to get too
shortly. So I want to give you

622
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:15.880
a chance to mention one of your
one of the myths that drives you a

623
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:20.679
bit crazy. And I love this
one because I know we've mentioned it before,

624
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.800
but I don't know if we broke
it down really on this show,

625
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:27.199
and maybe we're not going to do
an extreme breakdown here, but I wanted

626
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:30.559
to give you a chance to mention
this one because you and I talked just

627
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:34.599
before airtime, and this is one
of my favorites talk about. You know,

628
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:38.440
people want to talk about the timing
of death and what the cause was,

629
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:44.280
what the you know, motivation for
getting rid of ROSELLI was well one

630
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.519
of the more misleading. Hey,
this is the reason why they got rid

631
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:52.119
of JFK myths out there is one
that you're gonna mention here now there'll be

632
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.480
links not only to Carmin's notes,
but to this story and others in the

633
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:59.840
show notes, So check that out
and also the chat Atochelli dot com.

634
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.440
Mike, what is the thing that
gets you when people say this is why

635
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:10.960
JFK was killed? Well, so, to me, the craziest claim is

636
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:22.280
that he was killed over UFOs.
And there's two There's two pieces of evidence

637
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:25.199
that people point to who make this
argument. Now I'm going to briefly touch

638
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.159
on both of these two pieces of
evidence. The first is a memo that

639
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:36.360
Kennedy wrote on November twelfth, nineteen
sixty three, to the Director of the

640
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:45.360
Central Intelligence Agency, demanding a classification
review of all UFO intelligence files affecting national

641
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:50.679
security. That's the subject of the
memo, It claims or the memo states

642
00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:58.800
that the Kenny administration's making contacts with
the Soviet Union for Joint Space and Lunar

643
00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:05.960
Explanation Exploration, So we need to
do a classification review of what we know

644
00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:13.519
about the UFOs in order to share
the information with the Soviets and let them,

645
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:20.440
you know, not mistake our cooperation
with them as a cover for intelligence

646
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:27.880
gathering. For defense and space programs, and a book was a pressure release

647
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.400
was put out on November the twenty
second, twenty eleven by a doctor William

648
00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:40.440
Lester about a book he was putting
out called a Celebration of Freedom. Jf

649
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:45.599
came the New Frontier. So this
book came out in twenty eleven, and

650
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:51.960
this book cites the memo that I
just read. The problem is the memo

651
00:50:52.800 --> 00:51:07.079
isn't real and it's not international archives
and reporters contacted the Kennedy JFK Library to

652
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:12.400
ask them they could find it.
They couldn't find it. And since it

653
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:17.960
can't be found in any historical places, I'm saying it's not real. I

654
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:24.000
think it's a hoax because it can't
be verified to be real. But this

655
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:30.039
fellow that wrote the book, this
doctor William Lester, he also happened to

656
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:35.679
be a director of the Mutual UFO
Network, which is one of these UFO

657
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:44.840
groups. So anyway, so that's
the one piece of evidence. The other

658
00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:53.199
one is some collection of hoax documents
called Majestic twelve, which claim I said,

659
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:55.599
I sent you a link to it, so people want to see it,

660
00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:00.960
they can, But it claims to
be documents about UFOs a secret group

661
00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:08.559
inside the government created by Harry Truman
to investigate the UFOs, and these are

662
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:14.920
documents about the group, and supposedly
Kennedy may have been killed over this too.

663
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.440
But yeah, I just think it's
a bunch of nonsense. Yeah,

664
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:24.280
I don't doubt that there are some
A very small number of these UFOs stories

665
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:29.679
could be real, you know,
in the sense that they're not explained,

666
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:35.960
But the vast majority of these things
are hoaxes. And the UFO community is

667
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:42.960
just full of hoaxes and frauds among
its leadership. Interesting that the claim,

668
00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:47.360
by the way, from that author
Lester was that this was released by a

669
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:52.360
sort of a secret whistleblower and insider, right, a guy who worked for

670
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:55.039
the CIA in the sixties and seventies, who says he literally pulled it out

671
00:52:55.079 --> 00:53:00.159
of a burnbin so that it wouldn't
disappear, not realize. Yeah, I

672
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:07.840
want to make one remark about that
too. You get what's really getting me

673
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:15.559
at this moment in time is the
past six months we have seen these whistle

674
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:21.119
blowers, so called whistle blowers from
the Air Force come out and make these

675
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:25.559
claims that they know about UFOs,
they know about alien bodies. One of

676
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:31.280
them testified to Congress. Right,
these so called whistle blowers, I think

677
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:36.559
they're frauds. And the reason I
think they're frauds is because what I've seen

678
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:44.480
in my lifetime with whistle blowers that
come out with top secret information is they

679
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:51.199
get persecuted. Daniel Ellsberg was persecuted
and he got you know, went up

680
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:54.119
to court, he won his court
cases and you know, didn't go to

681
00:53:54.239 --> 00:54:00.920
jail. But how many o the
other whistle blowers had gone to jail?

682
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:08.880
You know, Julie and Asage wasn't
even American citizen, and he wasn't you

683
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:14.559
know, working for the US government
and releasing information, and they haunted him

684
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:19.159
across the world. He went in
an embassy, they got him out of

685
00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.199
the embassy. Now he's in jail. So how in the world do these

686
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:30.519
whistle blowers, reported whistle blowers get
away with saying all this stuff without getting

687
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.760
in trouble. I think they're fakes. Well, the funny thing is that

688
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:39.960
this Majestic twelve thing and the there's
not just the one memo, by the

689
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:45.000
way, there's actually a set of
documents that have circulated and you know,

690
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:47.840
prominently this stuff circulated in the late
nineties, but it was out there before

691
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:52.519
that. In the eighties. This
was out there, And if you go

692
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.519
back to a little piece of disinformation
out there called the tor Bit document,

693
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:04.639
there's a whole thing related to now
and supposedly lbj's involvement and the FBI being

694
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:12.559
somehow involved in the assassination directly,
and all these things came together into this

695
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:21.199
concept of the JFK was killed to
prevent the revelation of real aliens and the

696
00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:24.119
US government's involvement with it. Now. A fascinating thing that happened recently is

697
00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:30.360
News Nation did some specials on George
Norrie's you Know TV show in Vegas,

698
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:37.480
former host Coast Coast am interesting guy
and all that. But they had to

699
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:40.079
have his JFK episode right after a
couple of them on his UFO thing,

700
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:46.239
and he ties it together with the
Majestic twelve stuff, right And people keep

701
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:49.719
doing this, you know, over
and over again. They keep bringing it

702
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.920
back out, no matter how many
times you tell them top secret documents don't

703
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:57.199
look this way. There's no you
know, this document, a memo like

704
00:55:57.280 --> 00:56:00.239
this exists in more than one form
and more than one place. We can't

705
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:04.679
find it in any of those spots, So somebody would have to pull it

706
00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:07.800
from all the copies that were available
to the president, that were available in

707
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:14.239
the CIA everywhere else. It would
have to be completely scrubbed and put into

708
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.280
a different format. There are others
who have tried to defend this, saying

709
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:22.400
that well, they just reformatted it
and have recreated it from a real document,

710
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:27.840
and it's like, where does the
contortion stop regarding you don't actually have

711
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:31.199
evidence for this. I just want
to jump in if I could real quick.

712
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:34.599
Yeah, yeah, I just wanted
to jump in and say, yeah,

713
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.760
as you were saying, we actually
did a show that's probably in Chuck's

714
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:42.239
archives where we showed people how to
tell a real document from a fake one.

715
00:56:42.760 --> 00:56:45.800
And it is, you know,
as Mike said, the practice of

716
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.760
some people to create fake documents.
But what you need to do is you

717
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.760
need to take you know, it's
like a test group and a control group.

718
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:57.760
You go and get a document from
the time period that this supposedly occurred

719
00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:00.039
in that has nothing to do with
this, and look at the marketings and

720
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.519
begin to look at the language,
and then begin to look at the other

721
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:07.440
traits of the document, and you'll
soon find that you can begin to tell

722
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:10.800
which ones are fake and which ones
are real, because all of that stuff

723
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:15.800
suggested by Chuck is ridiculous that so
many agencies would be interconnected one unless it's

724
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.880
a paragraph about them. There's no
way that certain agencies, like three or

725
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.559
four or five different agencies are all
going to be signing off on the same

726
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:28.320
thing, right, And we go
through each agency, and as you know,

727
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:32.360
you know, Mike, disbelieve the
burn bag story, as I do

728
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:36.360
with a lot of things as well. Even if they destroy it, as

729
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:39.039
we know from the Defense Intelligence Agency, there's always another copy of something.

730
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:44.800
There's always a marketing left behind.
Like Chucks talked about mculture being figured out

731
00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:49.800
in the financial documents, there's always
a trace of something. So it is

732
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:52.760
almost impossible to purge something from the
record, and if it doesn't exist anywhere

733
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:55.320
in the record, chances are it's
not a real record. Yeah. Well,

734
00:57:55.400 --> 00:58:00.639
and there's the problem, right is
that again we've also shown on this

735
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:05.800
show very very succinctly that if you
do what you said and look at the

736
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:08.960
contemporaneous stuff and examine it and see
that it doesn't match number one. But

737
00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:13.519
even if they've gone out of their
way to make something look relatively correct.

738
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:16.920
Again, the redundancy comes in.
This is why. And we did a

739
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:20.679
show on this way, like because
people were asking, why is it that

740
00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.039
they redact one thing and then they
don't redact it and this is a game

741
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:27.800
they're playing, and it's like,
no, this is the inefficiency because of

742
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:32.800
the bloated size of the bureaucracy that
they can't possibly communicate with each other enough

743
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.800
to get a consistent reaction. This
is why you have some stuff that's redacted

744
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:42.360
in one form and then you get
it from another office. It's the same

745
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:47.079
memo, it's redacted in a completely
different way because somebody separately made that judgment.

746
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:53.360
And nobody bothered to corelate these things
because they can't. It's too massive

747
00:58:53.480 --> 00:59:00.400
to do. It's even with all
the wonderful computer technologies we have now,

748
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:04.440
it's impossible for them to get all
the copies of the documents that exist.

749
00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:08.760
Remember where all these copies went to? Okay, even preserving the former systems

750
00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:15.800
and possibly track them all down to
absolutely eliminate something. And we've seen this

751
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.199
before where yeah, the military intelligence
doesn't have it, but the CIA does.

752
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:24.000
The NSA doesn't have it, but
the oni does you know? Or

753
00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:30.440
so on and so forth, because
they can't even agree amongst themselves what should

754
00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:35.800
be removed, what should be redacted. They can't. They just can't.

755
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:39.519
It's impossible to make these determinations.
Even when they're trying to hide stuff.

756
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:45.239
They've turned around and re redacted things
later that you might have gotten a copy

757
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:51.199
of a document in nineteen eighty eight
that looks better than it does now in

758
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.039
twenty twenty four, because they decided
to redact more stuff later, and you

759
00:59:55.119 --> 01:00:00.320
could possibly have stuff that would be
classified today, like can't see any of

760
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:04.519
this, And yet you know that
blacked out page didn't look like that in

761
01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:08.079
eighty eight because nobody thought to redact
it in eighty eight. Yet, Okay,

762
01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:12.639
this happens back and forth all the
time. As a matter of fact,

763
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:16.239
we even covered the fact that they
reclassified a bunch of documents and then

764
01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:22.719
you can't even find out which documents
got reclassified. If you called the National

765
01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:24.039
Archives and you say, look,
I'm a good citizen, I want to

766
01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:29.679
turn back over these classified pieces of
information that I have, which I'm now

767
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.119
not legally allowed to possess. I'd
like to give them back to you.

768
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:38.480
You can't because they can't tell you
even what it is that has been reclassified.

769
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:43.960
You could potentially have stuff that's been
reclassified if you collected it years ago.

770
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:49.079
Because they change determinations as they go. Different attitudes come in, different

771
01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:52.639
ideas about what needs to be hidden
and what doesn't, and it continuously changes.

772
01:00:52.920 --> 01:01:00.960
It's not an evolution, it's just
a continuous sort of a shifting possibilities

773
01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:07.280
regarding this stuff. Do you think
that's an accurate description, Carmine, or

774
01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:10.400
am I over explaining this? Oh? Yes, and I think we uh,

775
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:16.960
last time we were discussing the case. I another you know, just

776
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:22.400
problem with the system is is that
there is of course overclassification that we all

777
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:27.440
deal with, as you were stating, but there's also in some cases under

778
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:30.239
classification. Because in the in the
latest batch of the twenty twenty three documents,

779
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.119
and I think some of the twenty
twenty two is maybe all the way

780
01:01:32.119 --> 01:01:36.760
back to the twenty seventeens, there's
files that shouldn't be in there. Yeah,

781
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:42.880
there's later intelligence reports that just have
the word JFK on them, and

782
01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:49.079
some idiot at either the Central Intelligence
Agency or NARA was like, well,

783
01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:54.679
says JFK in twenty in twenty twenty
three. Literally there was stuff put out

784
01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:00.360
in the initial release that wasn't even
requested. Yeah. Uh Ka airport was

785
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:02.199
one of the things I noticed,
Yeah, when I was going through the

786
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:07.440
files, right, stuff on the
JFK airport. Uh And and a whole

787
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:09.880
bunch of I'm telling you there,
there's hundreds of files that were not even

788
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:15.559
part of the request that were Yeah, and nobody has an explanation of how

789
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:20.440
they got there by the way.
They're just well, I just it's mismanagement.

790
01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:22.760
It's mismanagement over time, and no
one, as you said, colating

791
01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:29.639
or you know, constructing some sort
of viable system to keep everything in order.

792
01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:32.960
Yeah. Yeah, and and literally
they can't get each agency to sit

793
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.239
down and go get like one because
it's so massive. You know, you're

794
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:42.920
talking about five million documents got dumped
into the National Archives at one point,

795
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.760
right, all at once. And
some of that stuff is duplications. Like

796
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:51.639
I tell the story all the time
about the multiple copies of a newspaper article

797
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:53.599
I end up with when I when
I was getting documents sent to me,

798
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.639
and it was frustrating because I was
paying for it by the page. Thanks,

799
01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:01.719
but a new paper article that somebody
stuck in their file just happens to

800
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:06.199
be there and was formally classified.
Now it isn't I want the copy of

801
01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:10.159
it. I end up with three
copies of a newspaper clipping because three different

802
01:03:10.199 --> 01:03:14.920
people on the same committee had it
in their folders. I mean, this

803
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:16.760
is the kind of stuff you get. And yeah, they're under different numbers

804
01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:23.119
and everything. It's all I'm saying
is that I think in that one case,

805
01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:25.719
In most of the cases, it's
the hindrance, But in that one

806
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:30.119
case, it can be useful if
it's not prior published. Because sometimes what

807
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:34.000
they'll do, like you said,
it's not the same people doing everything.

808
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:37.599
They'll like one third of each will
be classified. But if you put the

809
01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:42.039
three together, you can get the
whole article, right. That's the funny

810
01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:45.679
part about it, Yeah, is
that sometimes it's like paragraph one. Imagine

811
01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:50.239
there's three paragraphs in a document,
Okay, just a simple one page document.

812
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.360
There's three paragraphs. Well, in
the first generation of that document,

813
01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:57.679
the first paragraph is completely blacked out, but the other two or not.

814
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:00.199
In the second one, two out
of the three are blacked out, and

815
01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:04.119
only the second one is revealed.
In the third one, the last two

816
01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:09.239
paragraphs are revealed, but the first
one is still blacked out. Yeah,

817
01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:14.119
you can assemble the whole document from
the three sources. Yep, And that

818
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:18.159
has happened, too, true,
But but that's rare. That's much rarer

819
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:24.079
than finding just useless duplicates, Yeah, useless lots of useless duplicates, useless

820
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:28.880
duplicates or singular words that are black
like they blacked out words that were not

821
01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:32.760
legible in the copies for no reason, just because there was a chance that

822
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.440
this meant something. It was a
name, and the name is not legible.

823
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:40.280
It's just not even you know,
even in the the pristine copy of

824
01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:44.440
it. It's not legible anymore because
it's been copied and copied and this is

825
01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:46.280
you know, the committee guy's copy
that he got from the copy of the

826
01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:53.000
congressman who you know, and so
on. Anyway, Joe, any comments

827
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:59.800
you want to add on this,
No, I completely agree. Missed file

828
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:11.960
among these government bureaucrats is one of
our best chances of finding little and significant

829
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:16.800
eature eggs that could put together pieces
of the puzzle. And mk Ultu is

830
01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:21.440
a great example. But you know, I found an amazing document in the

831
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:30.599
releases in April of twenty twenty three
as we were preparing for Lancer presentation.

832
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:43.519
So there are still interesting things coming
out, and misfiling is always very likely

833
01:05:43.719 --> 01:05:48.199
scenario to happen when you're dealing with
that many documents. And yeah, the

834
01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:54.119
people that know the context, the
researchers that take it seriously will and know

835
01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:58.400
what to look for. We'll be
able to pick up on that, right.

836
01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:00.840
And you know, one of the
most serious guys I ever heard given

837
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:04.960
audio presentation about the Majestic twelve stuff
and JFK and Aliens, and he was

838
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.119
about ready to reveal to the American
public that it was aliens and this is

839
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.960
why the CIA had him killed.
One of the most serious guys I ever

840
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:17.920
heard. Concluded his presentation with a
completely anomalous edition, which I think says

841
01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:23.199
it all. He said. In
addition, the other thing that he didn't

842
01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:26.519
want, you know, that they
had to cover up was that he was

843
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:31.239
smoking weed with Mary Myers and doing
mushrooms with other women. So you know,

844
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:35.440
I don't know what to say except
that that is a more logical reason

845
01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:41.079
to cover up things and maybe to
kill him than this, because this is

846
01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:45.719
based on nothing. Okay. JFK's
drug use, and there was drug use

847
01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:50.039
in the JFK Whitehouse, but you
know, it was generally from this position.

848
01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:54.079
And maybe we can get into that
sometime, but not today. Mike

849
01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:58.239
Majestic twelve. Yeah, I think
that's one of the most annoying, ridiculous

850
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:01.079
and strange things that doesn't seem to
want to go away. What do you

851
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:06.119
think, Mike, Well, these
things get recycled over and over and over

852
01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:12.199
again by different people just they don't
care if it's real or not. They

853
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:15.480
just want attention. There you go, that could be one motive and god

854
01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:18.440
knows what the rest of them are. Meanwhile, we're gonna take a quick

855
01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:21.440
break here. We're gonna let Mike
Swanson go, but again go to Wallstreet

856
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:25.679
Window dot com. Be in the
know, Wallstreet Window dot com. And

857
01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:30.320
I highly recommend all the books that
Mike has written, you know, especially

858
01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:33.719
The War State and Why the Vietnam
War. And you're working on the second

859
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:36.960
volume in that series now, right, Mike, yep, that's right.

860
01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:41.920
So, and we're still looking at
a possible release maybe toward the end of

861
01:07:41.960 --> 01:07:44.880
the year. Is that Is that
still a possibility or do you know?

862
01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:47.880
Or they won't be this year?
Oh? It won't be this year.

863
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:50.239
Okay, now, hey, look
you know what it is. Larry Hancock

864
01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:53.960
I think is going to have a
book out not too long for No,

865
01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:58.159
that's great. Yeah, I'm looking
very forward to his reframing, if you

866
01:07:58.239 --> 01:08:01.639
will, or Oswald in three dimension, as he mentioned on the show recently.

867
01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:05.480
But maybe we'll get Mike's book in
twenty twenty five, after all the

868
01:08:05.719 --> 01:08:10.719
selection nonsense is over with. Maybe
maybe we'll get it there, Mike,

869
01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:14.039
what do you think next year?
Yeah? I hope so too. I'm

870
01:08:14.079 --> 01:08:16.680
looking forward to it. And again, Mike's writing style is great because it

871
01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:21.960
takes very complex issues and breaks them
down so that even idiots like me can

872
01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:27.800
understand him. So highly recommend his
books. And again you see the Red

873
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:31.399
Book there on the sidebar tochelli dot
com the War State. But also if

874
01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:34.319
you're interested in the history of Danville, Virginia, Mike has written a book

875
01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:39.239
about that as well. He's got
some other financial based text out there,

876
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:42.920
some other stuff, but you can
always go to Wall Street Window dot com.

877
01:08:43.319 --> 01:08:46.720
And who knows, maybe we'll be
talking about Mike's more recent ventures.

878
01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:50.960
Do you want to mention that before
we go? Oh, we'll do next

879
01:08:51.039 --> 01:09:08.479
time. Next time you got it. But yeah, it's revelation through conversation.

880
01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:21.920
Wallstreet, Window, dott Gold Silver, the stock market, wall Stream,

881
01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:28.399
window dot dot. Perhaps you're invested
deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep

882
01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:33.199
enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting
started Wall Street windows on condos on com.

883
01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:39.039
Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of
the War State, understood these trends

884
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:43.119
professionally for many years, and now
he gives you the benefit of his knowledge.

885
01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:48.960
Wall Street, Street, Window dot
Dot Go there, now, go

886
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:53.720
there, now go there? Now? If he was expressed by callers school,

887
01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:55.800
was there anyone else who happens to
get on the air of jelly dot

888
01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:59.840
com. You're not necessarily replet he
us do, and we are not a

889
01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:03.840
lots of what were any stupidity which
might ensue in Denial the Secret Wars with

890
01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:11.680
air strikes and tanks by Larryhancock.
Secret wars became a staple of US covert

891
01:10:11.720 --> 01:10:16.520
operations and are still happening today.
Larryhancock's book in Denial rips the cover off

892
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:20.159
many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of

893
01:10:20.239 --> 01:10:25.279
Pigs that no one has ever written
about before. It shows why it really

894
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:29.520
failed and why the United States did
not learn from it. It also shows

895
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:33.359
why other countries today are doing secret
operations with more success. This is the

896
01:10:33.439 --> 01:10:40.079
book that puts what some want to
deny into the light. In Denial secret

897
01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:45.600
wars with air strikes and tanks Larryhancock. For more information, go to Larry

898
01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:50.600
hyphen Hancock dot com. Pick up
your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot

899
01:10:50.720 --> 01:10:56.960
com in digital or physical Quotilly dot
com. Do you like history, real

900
01:10:57.159 --> 01:11:01.359
history that you were never taught in
schools? Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear

901
01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:08.279
Bombs and nation Building in Southeast Asia
by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation

902
01:11:08.800 --> 01:11:13.159
never seen before that'll open your eyes
to events that led up to this.

903
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:19.159
Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs
and nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty

904
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:26.000
five through nineteen sixty one. Get
your copy today at Amazon dot com.

905
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:54.760
Why the Vietnam War by author Mike
Swanson. So returning to the second segment

906
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:58.159
of the o'celif peck here on a
Thor's day, Yes it is, and

907
01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:03.119
uh yeah, the fifteenth of February, continuing on with JFK Myts seventeen and

908
01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:06.399
Mike Swanson is not with us now, but I still got Joe Burrelli with

909
01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:13.479
me and Carmin Savastano. So I'm
gonna let Carmi continue on regarding part of

910
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:16.880
what it is that he wants to
discuss tonight, and then we're going to

911
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:24.399
get into something of interest that has
to do with myths and how people create

912
01:12:24.479 --> 01:12:28.640
them and how people propagate them and
who might actually be doing that currently.

913
01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:34.399
Anyways, continue on, my Carmin, because look, we're about to touch

914
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:40.439
on one of my favorite characters actually
in the JFK Land of Myths, So,

915
01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:45.920
you know, continuing on from the
Roselli stash, and gee, have

916
01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:49.560
we not taken care of that yet? Let's let's go forward. What is

917
01:12:49.720 --> 01:12:55.760
next, Carmin? So just to
clarify for everyone from before the break,

918
01:12:56.000 --> 01:13:00.439
we're discussing, you know, the
supposed members of Deboor team group posed by

919
01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:03.760
Robert Plumley, and we had done
Jenner Rezly. So next is e Howard

920
01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:09.560
Hunt. And luckily again we can
regard the evidence and quickly dismissed the claims

921
01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:14.079
of Plumbley and Hunt's verifiable location was
quite distant from dearly Plaza and again,

922
01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:18.000
by the way, interconnected with Chauncey
Hult, interconnected with Judith Farry, Baker

923
01:13:18.119 --> 01:13:23.319
inter Frank Sturgis, Frank Sturgis,
interconnected with Hash Plumley seeing it from the

924
01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:27.079
other side of the street, interconnected
with the three Tramps, interconnected. Yeah,

925
01:13:27.079 --> 01:13:31.119
I'm sorry, Yeah, go ahead
though, so uh oh, and

926
01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:35.439
any other time I independently that Hunt
was present in Dearly Plaza and this likely

927
01:13:35.479 --> 01:13:40.399
made him a viable infamous subject for
Plumbley to lend his myth's credibility, lend

928
01:13:40.479 --> 01:13:44.520
his myth credibility, right, and
let's never forget the work of Alex Jones

929
01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:47.520
and others who you know, clearly
wanted to show you and Jim Mars,

930
01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:53.439
the late Jim Marsh clearly wanted to
show you what the confession of the Howard

931
01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:58.079
Hunt, right, the deathbed confession. Don't forget that from the guy who

932
01:13:58.199 --> 01:14:01.319
used to write spy novels, the
Ordgate guy. Yeah, that e Howard

933
01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:06.319
Hunt, just saying he later recovered
and recanted his confession. Yeah, it

934
01:14:06.520 --> 01:14:11.159
wasn't quite his deathbed because he didn't
die right after being in that bed though.

935
01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:14.640
He was pretty sickly. And you
know, maybe his son had certain

936
01:14:14.680 --> 01:14:17.920
motivations for bringing that out. Not
making any judgments or anything, but it

937
01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:21.479
is what it was. And of
course this guy was a fictional writer as

938
01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:26.800
well, E Howard Hunt. That
is, he did. He wrote many

939
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.760
spine novels. You can go find
them, you know today any CIA officer

940
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:34.439
so fairly talented at Liane, Yeah, definitely so sorry, good go ahead,

941
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:39.520
E Howard Hunt. So, while
the House Select Committee on Assassinations photographic

942
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:44.439
studies dispelled some of the Hunt's presence
in Deally Plaza, claims, the man

943
01:14:44.560 --> 01:14:47.920
himself eluded those seeking his location November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three for decades.

944
01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:53.119
In my prior research for his location, I came upon several internal agency

945
01:14:53.159 --> 01:14:58.039
documents that support Hunt was an improbable
agent for use in JFK's assassination. Several

946
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.840
CIA reports note that Hunted not travel
in the period of the assassination and did

947
01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:04.680
not take sick leave. They also
noted his financial records supported this premise.

948
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:08.760
Yet E. Howard Hunts, never
want to divulge the truth of his own

949
01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:12.960
accord, had made claims found to
be false in court. Under questioning by

950
01:15:13.039 --> 01:15:15.760
Mark Lane, he claimed being at
home in the morning of the assassination and

951
01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:19.960
went shopping with his wife later that
day. He was lying, of course,

952
01:15:20.319 --> 01:15:24.600
and while laying an others believed that
Hunt's deception was to conceal link to

953
01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:29.039
the JFK case. According to then
classified agency files, it was to conceal

954
01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:33.359
his true location secretly meeting officials in
one Cuban exile about overthrowing Phiel Castro.

955
01:15:34.159 --> 01:15:39.119
The HSCA record states on November twenty
second, Hunt, Agency Inspector General Lyman

956
01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:44.319
Kirkpatrick, Deputy Director for Plans Richard
Helms, and Cuban exile Harry Ruis Williams

957
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:48.600
were meeting at headquarters regarding an anti
Castro planning and it was this Hunt attempted

958
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:53.920
to conceal. Despite the confusion and
dishonesty on E. Howard Hunt's part,

959
01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:58.000
the record clearly states he, like
Tosh Plumley, Johnny Rosselli, and Richard

960
01:15:58.079 --> 01:16:02.960
Mguell, have no verifiable connection to
President Kennedy's assassination. And when you're talking

961
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:06.800
about Mark Lane and questioning him in
court, you're clearly discussing the Liberty Lobby

962
01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:13.600
case where I Howard Hut sued them
overclaiming that he was President Dally Plaza,

963
01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:15.399
et cetera, et cetera. People
have tried to make him one of the

964
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:19.439
three Tramps, and then they've also
tried to make him a guy who's out

965
01:16:19.479 --> 01:16:25.680
there in this really really kind of
stylish hat for nineteen sixty three, you

966
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:30.720
know, dressed in a really interesting
way, supposedly President Dally Plaza for god

967
01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:34.880
knows what reason. You know,
they never quite give a reason except I

968
01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:39.279
don't know if anybody's ever claimed that
he's a shooter directly. Is he supposed

969
01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:41.640
to be a shooter? Well,
I don't think he was. He was

970
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:45.880
more of a counter intelligence and intelligence
gathering. I don't think he was really

971
01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:47.560
really skilled with weapons. That's not
I haven't seen that any of his files

972
01:16:47.600 --> 01:16:50.640
anyway. Well, no, but
you're it's a basic training. But yeah,

973
01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:55.119
but you're talking about the reality.
I'm asking about the myth because you

974
01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:59.159
know, sure somewhere he's a shooter. Yeah, I mean in somebody's story

975
01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:01.720
somewhere, you know, literally,
just like John Hankey never says in his

976
01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:05.640
video that George HW. Bush has
a gun in his hand, but he

977
01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:09.239
does show a picture of George H. W Bush with a gun in his

978
01:17:09.319 --> 01:17:15.039
hand during his presentation. So and
you know, no possible historical evidence to

979
01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:20.359
show that George hw knows probably anything
more than basic training methods for firing a

980
01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:24.520
weapon. So I mean, I'm
just saying, I'm just saying, I

981
01:17:24.520 --> 01:17:27.319
don't think anybody's tried to put a
gun in his hand directly. He was

982
01:17:27.319 --> 01:17:31.800
supposed to be an observer, a
guy watching, keeping the troops in line,

983
01:17:31.840 --> 01:17:36.159
so to speak. Right, supposedly, until you know, we debunked

984
01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:43.119
that. I believe Steve Rowe is
the gentleman who produced the picture that should

985
01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:45.520
have been Tyler Texas when everybody said
he dearly plotma oh yeah, hw Bush

986
01:17:45.640 --> 01:17:49.079
right? Where was George Bush during
the assassination? Where was Barbara Bush?

987
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:51.840
Right? Well, so happens he
was at a Kawanis Club meeting. But

988
01:17:53.920 --> 01:17:59.680
anyway, that's independently verified for a
book and other sources. Yeah. Yeah,

989
01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:04.199
and and there's photographic proof of him
giving a lunch again, a lunch

990
01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:10.479
time discussion. He's at a luncheon
for the Kawanas Club, which, by

991
01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:14.960
the way, lands in about that
area where Kennedy was in Dally Plaza around

992
01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:20.439
lunchtime. Okay, yeah, So
unless he has magic bit of distant bit

993
01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:24.800
of distance, he couldn't cover that
distance at that time, you know,

994
01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:27.439
I mean, unless you want to
tell me that you know, the Stephen

995
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:30.960
King thing is correct and somebody went
back in time and portaled him over there.

996
01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:38.239
I don't know, maybe, but
yes, go ahead. So four

997
01:18:38.359 --> 01:18:42.720
men were named. Those are all
the which I think are necessary to the

998
01:18:42.760 --> 01:18:46.239
plot, people who are kind of
somehow the glue that holds together all of

999
01:18:46.279 --> 01:18:50.279
these many stories. So, as
far as the assassins, four men were

1000
01:18:50.359 --> 01:18:57.279
named in the highly quote highly educated
guests as the assassins in Daly Plaza by

1001
01:18:57.319 --> 01:19:01.159
the podcast series, and they're identified
as quote cold blooded assassins. In my

1002
01:19:01.319 --> 01:19:04.279
view, that is two men too
many for an effective plot. But we

1003
01:19:04.439 --> 01:19:10.159
as we have noted, four assassins
is still a conservative number in comparison to

1004
01:19:10.319 --> 01:19:23.039
even more improbable popular scenarios a lah
Fetzer in fourteen. So the number arrived

1005
01:19:23.159 --> 01:19:28.000
at for assassins seems in many cases
to be arbitrary and likely inflated. Three

1006
01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:30.720
would at least cleave to using a
triangulation of fire, but in my view

1007
01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:34.039
three is still possibly too many.
If the plot was to be successful,

1008
01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:39.840
rely on a minimum of compartmentalized participants, and this would assist in preventing discovery

1009
01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:44.439
and concealing the plot. Nevertheless,
these are the men named responsible. The

1010
01:19:44.520 --> 01:19:48.880
first alleged killer was Hermenio Dias Garcia, a Cuban exile that was identified by

1011
01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:56.399
Fabian Escalante, a former Cuban intelligence
officer. Escalante stated that Garcia was a

1012
01:19:56.479 --> 01:20:00.439
gangster, and it appears the word
of this intelligence ag and is considered worthwhile

1013
01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:04.600
on not just his gangster affiliations,
but also that he was one of the

1014
01:20:04.640 --> 01:20:10.199
assassins. The series fails to offer
any real background on this mysterious person,

1015
01:20:10.279 --> 01:20:15.640
so I decided to do so for
them. Sandalio Herminio Diaz Garcia aka Herminio

1016
01:20:15.720 --> 01:20:20.159
Diez Garcia was a member of the
thirtieth of November Anti Castro Cuban Exile group

1017
01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:26.279
headquartered in Miami. Among the reasons
Garcia is an unlikely assassin is because evidence

1018
01:20:26.399 --> 01:20:30.399
verifies he did not arrive in the
United States until July of nineteen sixty three

1019
01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:35.000
and spent his time forming a small
anti Castro squad made underworld racketeering contacts,

1020
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:41.359
and was, like several notable exiles, debriefed by the Central Intelligence Agency during

1021
01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:45.840
September of nineteen sixty three to gain
intelligence regarding Cuba. Garcia during his interview

1022
01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:50.640
at State. Among his eventual goals
goals was the assassination of Fidel Castro.

1023
01:20:51.560 --> 01:20:56.279
This quickly prompted agency officials to state, quote, we dropped contact with him

1024
01:20:56.279 --> 01:21:00.680
at that time and never did have
an operational relationship with him. Referring back

1025
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:03.239
to what Chuck said about Rosellie,
need Less to say, the agency didn't

1026
01:21:03.239 --> 01:21:09.399
have the greatest past association trying to
use criminals to kill Castra. Yeah,

1027
01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:12.399
they had some troubles there. You
know. It's interesting, by the way,

1028
01:21:12.520 --> 01:21:15.720
just the use of the word gangster
in this very general kind of open

1029
01:21:15.800 --> 01:21:20.720
way is fascinating to me because people
read into that in all sorts of different

1030
01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:24.840
ways. It's interpreted in very different
ways. Matter of fact, when I

1031
01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:28.399
first read that guy's name, I
thought maybe they were adding a nickname to

1032
01:21:28.520 --> 01:21:32.319
it, because Hermano is what a
Spanish for brother, right, so you

1033
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:38.399
know Hermano. Maybe they're saying it's
like brother. You know, I don't

1034
01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:44.880
know, nickname, street name possibly, But it also vaguely resembles some of

1035
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:48.600
what Dean Anderson was saying. Dean
Andrews, excuse me, was saying right

1036
01:21:49.039 --> 01:21:51.279
when he said, I don't know, I pulled names out of the thin

1037
01:21:51.359 --> 01:21:55.880
air, you know, and it's
a jazz talk where he gave up all

1038
01:21:55.920 --> 01:22:00.520
these different let's just call them Hispanic
sounding names. Supposedly to Garrison, he

1039
01:22:00.680 --> 01:22:04.279
you know, famously, John Candy
in the movie says, I just gave

1040
01:22:04.359 --> 01:22:09.800
him whatever name popped into Mikebsa.
Sorry, I just would have loved to

1041
01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:12.880
have been in the room when the
agency officials were questioning him and he said,

1042
01:22:13.000 --> 01:22:14.800
oh, yeah, I'm gonna kill
Castro. And they're just like,

1043
01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.960
oh boy, right, you know, oh do we know this one,

1044
01:22:18.079 --> 01:22:21.640
pally, you don't even know that. We got operations going on right now

1045
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:26.239
talking Yeah, I mean you know, oh, okay, yeah, one

1046
01:22:26.279 --> 01:22:30.439
of those gotcha. Sorry, go
ahead. Based on the ongoing CIA at

1047
01:22:30.479 --> 01:22:34.760
Thamson Castro's life in that period,
Garcia's open discussion of assassination, it makes

1048
01:22:34.800 --> 01:22:40.680
some sense to disance themselves from this
seemingly loose lipped figure. Plus he said

1049
01:22:40.680 --> 01:22:43.039
it in the first interview. It's
like, Hi, guys, I want

1050
01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:47.760
to kill Castro. Right, maybe
that's not the best agent to be secretive

1051
01:22:47.800 --> 01:22:51.800
with anyway. You know, you're
there for your intake interview at CIA,

1052
01:22:51.920 --> 01:22:55.479
and you say, hey, who
do I talk to you about running cocaine?

1053
01:22:56.640 --> 01:22:59.479
Yeah? No, Now that you'll
see he actually had a little bit

1054
01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:03.399
of familiar already. That's why I
brought it up, Goad. So the

1055
01:23:03.520 --> 01:23:10.039
agency had the Amlash plot underway when
Garcia made his declaration, and he was

1056
01:23:10.119 --> 01:23:13.880
not required to execute their future operations. They also did not have a great

1057
01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:16.119
record of attempting to use criminals,
as we've spoke him before, i'llo Johnny

1058
01:23:16.159 --> 01:23:20.720
Rosselli. The FBI notes possessing a
useful Cuban exile informant near the end of

1059
01:23:20.760 --> 01:23:26.720
October, with contacts to both mafia
boss Santo Trafficante and criminals within the exile

1060
01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:31.359
community. Garcia stated waiting a while
after seeking asylum for other anti Castro groups

1061
01:23:31.399 --> 01:23:39.439
to assassinate the Cuban dictator before years
later acting himself. Sandalio, according to

1062
01:23:39.560 --> 01:23:44.840
documents, was eventually a bodyguard of
Bob Boss Santo Trafficante, smuggled drugs,

1063
01:23:45.199 --> 01:23:48.920
sold weapons, and this adheres to
reports of his past criminal history. However,

1064
01:23:49.159 --> 01:23:55.279
all this recorded activity and officials tracking
him would leave scant time and opportunity

1065
01:23:55.359 --> 01:24:00.079
to undertake a clandestine assassination just months
following his arrival to America, Right,

1066
01:24:01.119 --> 01:24:04.079
I mean, if you want to
believe, you want to believe, but

1067
01:24:04.159 --> 01:24:08.159
you better hit the ground running if
you get here in July. Then you've

1068
01:24:08.159 --> 01:24:14.039
got to go through all the rigmarole
of applying for asylum, of finding somewhere

1069
01:24:14.039 --> 01:24:15.840
to live, of orchestrating your family, you know. And at the same

1070
01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:19.880
time he's committing crimes and making deals
with lacketeers and being interviewed by the CIA.

1071
01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:26.039
He was busy too. Unless we
get some evidence, I see no

1072
01:24:26.119 --> 01:24:29.079
reason why this is the guy.
But I'm trying to give people actual background

1073
01:24:29.119 --> 01:24:38.640
on him, not just a story. So so the aforementioned FBI informant would

1074
01:24:38.640 --> 01:24:43.520
identify Garcia's association to the Mafia amongst
nineteen sixty four. Garcia did participate in

1075
01:24:43.640 --> 01:24:47.119
exile operations targeting Cuba during the middle
of the nineteen sixties, according to files,

1076
01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:51.760
and they reveal he committed and withdrew
from at least one paramilitary assassination operation

1077
01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:57.239
not sanctioned by the CIA, just
Cuban exiles trying to take a Castro on

1078
01:24:57.279 --> 01:25:02.359
their own. Subsequent go sos offer
that Sandialla was killed on a beach with

1079
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:08.279
other exiles during a failed operation targeting
Cuba amid nineteen sixty six. The goal

1080
01:25:08.319 --> 01:25:12.000
of the failed operation was the assassination
of Fidel Castro and notably Garcia was said

1081
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:15.640
to plan the act by using his
quote thirty eight caliber pistol with a silencer.

1082
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:20.079
This failure to even get close to
his target is inconsistent commitment to operations

1083
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:24.279
and choice of weapon. Further,
do not lend themselves to Garcia being an

1084
01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:29.880
effective assassin. Remember, no evidence
is presented by the series, but Garcia

1085
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:36.680
is merely endorsed upon the word of
a prior Direccion Generality Intelligentsia DGI official suggestion,

1086
01:25:38.560 --> 01:25:42.880
and I find this quite deficient.
Additionally, notable is that Escalante believed

1087
01:25:42.880 --> 01:25:46.920
the Maurice Bishops story of Antonio Vissiana, who claimed that David Attlie Phillips and

1088
01:25:47.479 --> 01:25:51.119
Jay Walden Moore at differing times,
were bishop, which, like so many

1089
01:25:51.159 --> 01:25:56.800
other ideas of this podcast series,
is not reliable, lacking significant documentation or

1090
01:25:56.840 --> 01:26:00.279
several corroborating sources that can be verified. I see no why reason why this

1091
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:05.720
particular exile is more likely an assassin
than any other quote daring figure exiles such

1092
01:26:05.720 --> 01:26:11.479
as a Manola Ray with his own
autonomously functioning group and several others leading exiles

1093
01:26:11.520 --> 01:26:15.039
and sensed with the Kennedy administration's failure
for Cuba would also possess a greater motive

1094
01:26:15.239 --> 01:26:19.199
and means to conspire. As Russell
states, this is just a name.

1095
01:26:19.479 --> 01:26:27.159
They're best guests that have proven assassin. So there you have it, and

1096
01:26:27.279 --> 01:26:30.880
that final statement boils it down pretty
well, and you've just been writed.

1097
01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:38.279
Well, you know, I would
say that that's a fairly good roundup.

1098
01:26:38.399 --> 01:26:42.880
So Carmine has a lot more information, and believe it, there's going to

1099
01:26:42.920 --> 01:26:45.920
be an eighteen, nineteen, and
twenty of this series one way or another.

1100
01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:49.359
So as we continue on with seventeen, I want to turn our attention

1101
01:26:49.439 --> 01:26:56.840
to something else because there might be
a couple of points of contention that I

1102
01:26:56.880 --> 01:26:59.880
don't know, I might have never
paid any attention to had I not been

1103
01:27:00.199 --> 01:27:03.920
Lancer this past year. And why
is that? Well, ultimately it concludes

1104
01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:06.600
with a clip I'm going to play
for you here, and we're going to

1105
01:27:06.680 --> 01:27:11.600
get an explanation from Joe, because
you know, Carmine presented a Lancer,

1106
01:27:11.920 --> 01:27:15.479
but he did it via remote and
with a pre recorded presentation. Joe was

1107
01:27:15.560 --> 01:27:20.399
there even though there was a prerecorded
presentation with him and Rob at Lancer,

1108
01:27:21.079 --> 01:27:28.479
but he bore witness to some things
that went on with let's call them another

1109
01:27:28.600 --> 01:27:34.079
podcast and ultimately it concludes. The
story concludes, We're going to go back

1110
01:27:34.239 --> 01:27:39.560
to front on this one. Okay. The story concludes with this clip here

1111
01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:44.119
that I'm going to play, which
I was sent just prior to showtime the

1112
01:27:44.199 --> 01:27:47.479
Lone Gunman Podcast. Accuse your show
ripping them off in the first ninety seconds,

1113
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:53.680
so their last podcast, spicy.
I saw this and came in before

1114
01:27:53.760 --> 01:27:59.199
the show. Who are they?
It's there's a podcast called the Lone Gunman

1115
01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:02.399
Podcast. Okay. I did find
it, and I found a show and

1116
01:28:02.439 --> 01:28:08.840
there's like a micro clip where you
stated that, oh god, we were

1117
01:28:08.920 --> 01:28:14.399
just talking about him, but the
guy Phillips, not David Athlete Phillips,

1118
01:28:14.439 --> 01:28:20.279
but mister X who mister yeah,
that Fletcher Prouty was a maniac, scientologist,

1119
01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:23.920
et cetera. Or I didn't say
he was a maniac. I said

1120
01:28:23.960 --> 01:28:27.600
he was a scientologist, but you
said this guy's a maniac as a side.

1121
01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:30.119
But it was just off the cuffs
of stone, okay. And they

1122
01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:33.000
pulled this. There's this little snippet
and an Oscar Wild quote that they say,

1123
01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:36.840
the imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery. I've never even heard of

1124
01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:41.359
these people, I know, I
really don't understand it, and honestly,

1125
01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:46.000
I wouldn't watch it because it's the
lone Gunman podcast. Who gives a shit

1126
01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:49.560
about these people? Let's move on, fuck these people? Are you kidding

1127
01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:57.279
me? All right? John?
So that is the way that America's Untold

1128
01:28:57.359 --> 01:29:03.279
Stories answered a question from a chat
on YouTube about the idea that you know,

1129
01:29:03.479 --> 01:29:05.960
maybe maybe there's something. Oh,
by the way, they're not familiar

1130
01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:12.399
with never heard of these people.
You met him at Lancer and there was

1131
01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:15.880
an interesting meeting at Lancer for one
of the figures. And I can't remember

1132
01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:18.600
who's supposed to be the comedian.
Between the two of them, one of

1133
01:29:18.640 --> 01:29:21.600
them is supposedly a comedian. I
think the other one is the researcher.

1134
01:29:23.079 --> 01:29:30.199
I think that's the story. Mark
Robert we call him Gruber, is the

1135
01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:39.359
storyteller, and I'm stressing that word
storyteller. And the other guy, Eric

1136
01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:47.039
Hunley is more of the heck guy
that just lets Mark talk the whole episode.

1137
01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:54.560
And their podcast is called America's Untold
Stories, and that's what they do.

1138
01:29:54.800 --> 01:30:00.560
They tell stories. And we'll hear
a clip of shortly of one of

1139
01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:05.439
their stories they told. But after
they told us to go f ourselves of

1140
01:30:05.520 --> 01:30:13.479
course Rob and I had to respond, and on episode two seventy three we

1141
01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:21.479
devoted almost twenty five minutes to their
shenanigans. Rob were apart them on their

1142
01:30:21.880 --> 01:30:29.399
prey Ford episode because Rob has been
one of the few people who has dived

1143
01:30:29.399 --> 01:30:34.760
into Larry Crayford. They didn't say
the name right, but it's it's crazy,

1144
01:30:34.880 --> 01:30:41.840
and then they don't even do the
research or the you know, takes

1145
01:30:41.880 --> 01:30:46.640
two minutes to find out that we're
not a lone Gunman based podcast. And

1146
01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:56.119
it's kind of an ironic title now
that there's two people posting it's in theory

1147
01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:59.840
should be the Lone Gunmen, but
it's even more ironic. And they did.

1148
01:31:00.039 --> 01:31:03.560
They just don't get it, and
they're too lazy, and they're storytellers,

1149
01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:14.239
and they they poked the bear look
fair enough, and they're semi popular

1150
01:31:14.319 --> 01:31:18.920
on YouTube fair enough, and they
made their presence known at the Lancer Conference.

1151
01:31:20.039 --> 01:31:24.760
Now we have a thirty second clip
of how they made their presence known

1152
01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:28.720
at the Lancer Conference. Despite the
fact that this went on for quite a

1153
01:31:28.840 --> 01:31:32.359
while, there was a bit of
disturbance while people were speaking on stage,

1154
01:31:32.399 --> 01:31:35.520
and there was difficulty with people being
able to hear in the back of the

1155
01:31:35.640 --> 01:31:41.960
hall during the live presentations, and
indeed, my co host on Friday Nights

1156
01:31:42.079 --> 01:31:48.600
was also involved in this event that
went on during the event where you know,

1157
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:53.279
people felt that they were quite entitled
to behave any which way they wanted

1158
01:31:53.319 --> 01:31:57.680
to in a public space because I
guess alcohol was being served and you know,

1159
01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:00.960
when you're rock stars of the YouTube, then you're rock stars. So

1160
01:32:01.640 --> 01:32:05.079
this is kind of an example of
their We do have audio, thanks to

1161
01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:15.399
Doug Campbell, of of Huntley being
disrespectful at the Dallas conference and here it

1162
01:32:15.520 --> 01:32:35.880
is, Okay, all that crap
is going on to back. At first

1163
01:32:35.920 --> 01:32:42.119
you heard Rob Clark's voice introducing this
and obviously this is a clip from either

1164
01:32:42.199 --> 01:32:46.479
Quick Kits or Loan Gunman, which
is it from Loan Government Loan and uh,

1165
01:32:46.880 --> 01:32:53.399
it came in a little fuzzy,
but especially essentially some guys stood up.

1166
01:32:54.279 --> 01:32:58.760
Uh. Huntley was in the back
corner of the room. You know

1167
01:32:58.840 --> 01:33:01.119
what I'm talking about, Chuck.
You were there where you couldn't really see

1168
01:33:01.159 --> 01:33:06.560
the stage, and he had his
little group of minions around him and they

1169
01:33:06.600 --> 01:33:16.119
were drunkenly being disrespectful during the banquet, which you know featured Robert Grodin and

1170
01:33:18.239 --> 01:33:24.560
Deborah Conway spoke at Deborah Conway,
that's exactly where it happened. It was

1171
01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:30.159
that or Groden. But yeah,
someone literally stood up and told them to

1172
01:33:30.279 --> 01:33:39.960
shut the f up because you're being
disrespectful. And Grobert, the other host

1173
01:33:40.119 --> 01:33:44.680
of America Unsold Stories, was not
even listening, was outside behind the bar

1174
01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:49.760
with his own little group telling his
own little stories, even with his fascination

1175
01:33:49.920 --> 01:33:57.800
with the Supprouver film, had no
interest of listening to Grodin. And they

1176
01:33:57.880 --> 01:34:01.239
eventually got kicked out and went down
to the bar and got kicked out of

1177
01:34:01.279 --> 01:34:05.119
there, and it was just a
whole mess. Well, two of the

1178
01:34:05.199 --> 01:34:09.880
guys, two guys at a table
adjacent to them in the back. One

1179
01:34:09.960 --> 01:34:13.159
of them was my co host on
Friday Nights, be Pete, the tall

1180
01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:15.239
guy in the blue shirt and the
hat with the glasses. That was be

1181
01:34:15.359 --> 01:34:19.680
Pete. Yes, I remember him, and uh, I'm not sure if

1182
01:34:19.680 --> 01:34:23.560
it was him or the guy next
to him, Like literally was like,

1183
01:34:23.720 --> 01:34:26.880
look we can, we can,
uh, you know, settle this outside

1184
01:34:26.920 --> 01:34:30.640
if you want, uh kind of
situations here, okay, which would have

1185
01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:34.239
been interesting because we were on the
eleventh floor, you know. So I

1186
01:34:34.279 --> 01:34:36.600
don't know if they would have to
take the elevator to go outside with it

1187
01:34:36.720 --> 01:34:40.880
or what. But it did seem
to calm down a bit after this.

1188
01:34:41.000 --> 01:34:45.000
But this this carrying on, this
noise was being made again during presentations at

1189
01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:48.520
the banquet, uh, you know, where awards were given, Debora did

1190
01:34:48.520 --> 01:34:53.880
a special thing about you know,
women that are gone that contributed to the

1191
01:34:53.960 --> 01:34:59.079
case. Robert grows almost almost in
tears. It was just so disrespectful.

1192
01:34:59.199 --> 01:35:00.680
Well because one of them was her
sister, you know, that's the first

1193
01:35:00.720 --> 01:35:04.560
thing that really moved her. But
she also worked with Mary Farrell and you

1194
01:35:04.640 --> 01:35:09.359
know, so on and so forth, and was doing that. Bob Groden

1195
01:35:09.399 --> 01:35:15.000
did a presentation, Larry Hancock did
a presentation. Anyway, it was the

1196
01:35:15.039 --> 01:35:18.720
banquet actually ran kind of along the
presentations and all that that night. But

1197
01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:23.039
part of what was going on there
is people in the back couldn't hear and

1198
01:35:23.239 --> 01:35:26.920
you're hearing the arguments about that in
that clip. So that's what that was

1199
01:35:27.159 --> 01:35:32.039
all together. Meanwhile, there's also
a short thing on YouTube. Maybe you

1200
01:35:32.079 --> 01:35:35.479
want to explain that clip real fast
before we play it for people. But

1201
01:35:36.039 --> 01:35:42.039
I have an ultimate conclusion on America's
untold stories. When we're done wrapping this

1202
01:35:42.199 --> 01:35:46.039
up, So go ahead and explain
this short on YouTube, please, great,

1203
01:35:46.239 --> 01:35:50.079
Well, this is one of the
shorts, and of course shorts on

1204
01:35:50.199 --> 01:35:57.960
YouTube are made to get views,
so they're a little extra ridiculous. But

1205
01:35:58.119 --> 01:36:05.720
this one was just so ridiculous,
so out of control, and just so

1206
01:36:09.279 --> 01:36:12.399
I don't even know the words for
it, and I'll let you play it,

1207
01:36:12.560 --> 01:36:16.039
and then I want to get Carmin's
reaction to it. And it links

1208
01:36:16.159 --> 01:36:23.039
very nicely to the nexus of madness
that Carmine was just discussing too, because

1209
01:36:23.319 --> 01:36:27.600
you know the abort mission and the
secondary plots, and you know, the

1210
01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:30.119
people that don't necessarily know what the
plan of the assassination was, but somehow

1211
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:34.680
know what the backup and aboard plots
were. It's interesting you don't know what

1212
01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:38.439
you're aboarding, but you know there
was an aboard team. You don't know

1213
01:36:38.640 --> 01:36:41.800
what it is that was being plotted
exactly, but you know about the second

1214
01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:45.239
plot that didn't go off, or
the backup plans you know about but not

1215
01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:49.399
the initial plans. I always find
that interesting. But anyway, here's that

1216
01:36:49.479 --> 01:36:56.800
clip. If it'll play it for
us, let's see. Um hmm,

1217
01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:08.920
okay, sorry if you already answered
this question. After Kennedy was shot but

1218
01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:12.760
he survived, was there a backup
plan to make sure he didn't leave the

1219
01:37:12.840 --> 01:37:16.840
hospital alive? I don't know.
The backup plan was to go, Peter,

1220
01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:21.640
sorry about your loss. By the
way, the backup plan was to

1221
01:37:23.359 --> 01:37:28.880
go to the LBJ ranch the following
day, where he would never have been

1222
01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:32.399
allowed to escape. There was a
fundraising barbecue A very few people know about

1223
01:37:32.439 --> 01:37:40.239
this, a Democratic fundraiser schedule for
the LBJ ranch on Sunday, and I

1224
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:45.000
from what I understand, there was
a plan there with multiple snipers to not

1225
01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:51.600
let him leave the ranch. Okay, from what I understand, there was

1226
01:37:51.640 --> 01:37:59.039
a backup plan there the next day, cause if you had an aborted attack

1227
01:37:59.199 --> 01:38:02.039
or a partial it's that was unsuccessful
in Dealey Plaza, I'm sure plans wouldn't

1228
01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:06.279
have changed, by the way.
Uh but I guess assuming that nothing happened

1229
01:38:06.279 --> 01:38:12.000
and nobody saw anything, and the
Secret Service wasn't tipped and nobody caught wind

1230
01:38:12.039 --> 01:38:15.600
of anything at all, and they'll
get them the next day, maybe so,

1231
01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:18.600
but maybe again, you know,
and I've heard other people discuss this

1232
01:38:18.720 --> 01:38:23.119
about, well, there were actually
shooters that were getting ready to be there

1233
01:38:23.159 --> 01:38:26.520
at the trademark, which was the
ultimate destination. When they would have stopped

1234
01:38:26.560 --> 01:38:30.119
moving, they would have been there
for the next speech. There were shooters

1235
01:38:30.159 --> 01:38:32.319
there, there were shooters. What
back that long? We're going to hit

1236
01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:35.760
numbers soon? Well, we're already
passed bets or numbers, aren't we,

1237
01:38:35.760 --> 01:38:40.159
Because I mean, how many teams
do you have to assemble between spotters,

1238
01:38:40.319 --> 01:38:45.399
radio guys, shooters, extra tramps, witnesses. People claim that people were

1239
01:38:45.399 --> 01:38:48.359
put in position to make films and
take pictures. I mean, yeah,

1240
01:38:48.479 --> 01:38:55.800
you know, uh as like most
of these things unfortunately, well not fortunately

1241
01:38:55.800 --> 01:39:01.159
because the show ridiculous. As most
of these things unfortunately work out, they

1242
01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:06.199
fall apart because it's just too many
people. You cannot keep a secret amongst

1243
01:39:06.399 --> 01:39:11.840
that many people. You just can't. I mean we've seen it through just

1244
01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:15.319
leaks in the last let's say twenty
years. I mean it was less frequent

1245
01:39:15.479 --> 01:39:18.760
then, but there still were leaks, and there's there were people that you

1246
01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:24.000
know, spoke out properly, like
Elsberg, like Mike mentioned earlier. So

1247
01:39:24.239 --> 01:39:28.600
you were going to get something,
As Larry said in one of his named

1248
01:39:28.600 --> 01:39:32.520
on his books, someone would have
talked. Chances are yeah, someone if

1249
01:39:32.640 --> 01:39:39.159
if a direct link to the assassination
existed, still chances are they're dead.

1250
01:39:40.199 --> 01:39:44.279
And as I and Chuck have discussed
before, just you know, in discussing,

1251
01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:47.680
you know, postulating on what would
have happened if these conspirators had a

1252
01:39:47.720 --> 01:39:50.479
brain in their head, the assassins
were dead within a week. They were

1253
01:39:50.520 --> 01:39:56.359
sent on vacation, and when they
arrived there are people waiting for them.

1254
01:39:57.119 --> 01:40:00.239
Yeah. Yeah, either either that
or you figure out a way to get

1255
01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:03.600
them all on one plane that never
makes its destination, you know, ollinge

1256
01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:08.800
and nice, nice little buddy Holly
killing plane, you know, something like

1257
01:40:08.920 --> 01:40:11.920
that, and yeah, it's all
over with. And I mean accidents happen.

1258
01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:15.199
I mean, these are mastermind So
you got to think a mastermind is

1259
01:40:15.279 --> 01:40:17.560
going to be a few steps ahead. If that's you know, someone that

1260
01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:23.159
could contrive the plot that I would
think most reasonable people that look into this

1261
01:40:23.239 --> 01:40:27.159
case of thinking of is a mastermind. Well see, here's the problem with

1262
01:40:27.319 --> 01:40:30.640
someone would have talked as a phrase, by the way, no offense to

1263
01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:34.399
Larry Hancock, actually praise an honor
to the man. But quite frankly,

1264
01:40:35.239 --> 01:40:40.239
let's get down to it. If
someone did talk, here's what it's lost

1265
01:40:40.319 --> 01:40:45.319
in the soup of crap. That
is now out there with the alleged claims,

1266
01:40:45.399 --> 01:40:48.279
with the people that are talking that
are misleading you, with the storytellers,

1267
01:40:48.359 --> 01:40:55.119
if you will, the storytellers,
if you will. Okay, they're

1268
01:40:55.239 --> 01:40:59.880
out there, what doing what muddying
the water giving you the idea that they

1269
01:41:00.119 --> 01:41:03.880
have a story to tell. Storytellers. Interesting because the guy told me he

1270
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:06.560
was a comedian, by the way, and I had an exchange back and

1271
01:41:06.680 --> 01:41:10.720
forth with him. By the way, I am not an official member or

1272
01:41:10.720 --> 01:41:15.520
anything connected to the Lone Gunman podcast, which you know, the guy's like,

1273
01:41:15.600 --> 01:41:16.840
oh, if them because of the
name of the podcast. Anyway,

1274
01:41:17.199 --> 01:41:20.279
as per usual, don't listen to
it or examine what it is you're talking

1275
01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:26.159
about, because that would be consistent
with your behavior obviously, and I get

1276
01:41:26.239 --> 01:41:31.119
it exactly exactly. So well,
go ahead, Joe, let me speak

1277
01:41:31.159 --> 01:41:35.720
on this place. Go ahead,
Okay. So the fun the funny part

1278
01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:42.520
about it is you actually mentioned the
words liberty lobby and a few minutes ago,

1279
01:41:42.680 --> 01:41:47.239
right, So it's an inside joke
within the Lone Gunman podcast that Rob

1280
01:41:48.199 --> 01:41:57.479
has trouble saying liberty lobby and sometimes
says liberty lobberty, and it's I'm sure

1281
01:41:57.720 --> 01:42:04.680
where carline. It's been a little
year's long joke, and Grobert on one

1282
01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:13.479
of his recent episodes on Prowdy or
something said liberty lobbity, and we played

1283
01:42:13.560 --> 01:42:20.880
that as a joke. So one
of the mutual listeners essentially made a super

1284
01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:28.239
chat that wasn't really accurate that that
claimed we were hijacking something, while ironically

1285
01:42:28.880 --> 01:42:36.000
they their episode was on Ed Butler, the Inca Guy, and they had

1286
01:42:36.119 --> 01:42:45.199
played some of Oswalt's radio and television
interviews which we had uploaded a week and

1287
01:42:45.239 --> 01:42:49.520
a half before. So if anyone
was hijacking anything, it wasn't us.

1288
01:42:50.119 --> 01:42:55.600
And just because Rob decided to bring
me on as a co host and because

1289
01:42:55.760 --> 01:43:00.159
we decided to take it live does
not mean to be hijacked anything. It's

1290
01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:04.720
completely added context. And then we
tore them apart for half an hour because

1291
01:43:04.800 --> 01:43:12.560
of their ignorance. Okay, so
to respond to the thing that you played,

1292
01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:16.319
yes, that was disrespectful, inappropriate. If they really had something to

1293
01:43:16.359 --> 01:43:19.960
say, they would have, you
know, tried to present or they would

1294
01:43:19.960 --> 01:43:26.279
have tried to offer a contrary view
in some sort of forum rather than just

1295
01:43:26.359 --> 01:43:30.279
scream like idiots in the back of
the room while you were talking. I

1296
01:43:30.520 --> 01:43:34.520
looked up. So Groubert is the
guy that did this. Grobert is the

1297
01:43:34.560 --> 01:43:38.960
guy that said fuck these guys.
Yeah. So well, he is a

1298
01:43:39.640 --> 01:43:47.800
writer who has been in a few
movies and National Lampoon, Yeah for the

1299
01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:54.520
National Lampoon, Yeah, La Weekly, High Times, Penthouse MTV. So

1300
01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:58.239
a, he's a pseudo celebrity.
So he thinks that, you know,

1301
01:43:58.399 --> 01:44:04.119
because of his pseudo celebrity set,
that he's he's correct, rather than you

1302
01:44:04.239 --> 01:44:12.920
guys who actually produce evidence and believe
your mind's open to new ideas. Interesting.

1303
01:44:13.119 --> 01:44:15.680
Interesting, he's talking about Ed Butler
too, because Butler's just for the

1304
01:44:15.760 --> 01:44:19.239
listener's edification. That's one of the
guys who was involved in Lee Harvey Oswald's

1305
01:44:19.239 --> 01:44:27.039
interviews in New Orleans in the summer
sixty three after he got arrested with Carlos

1306
01:44:27.119 --> 01:44:33.079
Berengere for his you know FPCC fair
Play for Cuba Committee distribution of pamphlets,

1307
01:44:33.279 --> 01:44:38.199
right and all that, you know, where he ends up going and taking

1308
01:44:38.479 --> 01:44:41.000
like a ten dollars fine or something
like that. I forget how much it

1309
01:44:41.119 --> 01:44:45.159
was, wasn't much, you know, and that arrest for disturbing the peace

1310
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:49.439
out there, right, So he
gets invited to two radio things one radio

1311
01:44:49.479 --> 01:44:57.600
one TV really the Latin listening Post, and then WDSU TV conversation cavalcade or

1312
01:44:57.720 --> 01:45:00.560
something like that, I forget,
but anyway, art Blanche, carte blanche,

1313
01:45:00.640 --> 01:45:03.920
that's it, thank you. Uh, conversation carte blanche. There it

1314
01:45:04.079 --> 01:45:10.600
is. But either way, Butler
is what the the interviewer who is trying

1315
01:45:10.640 --> 01:45:15.039
to deal with the debate between him
and Berengear right, yeah, yeah,

1316
01:45:15.520 --> 01:45:21.840
okay, so and then the other
guy, well yeah, well Stucky is

1317
01:45:21.920 --> 01:45:29.119
that yeah, and Stucky's the guy
with the with the Latin listening post.

1318
01:45:29.279 --> 01:45:32.279
Uh you know for people that a
Bill Stucky Bill Stucky, right, So

1319
01:45:32.600 --> 01:45:35.399
I mean yeah, so there you
go. And those things are you know,

1320
01:45:35.479 --> 01:45:40.399
out there. You can find him
download him from somewhere online. Plus

1321
01:45:40.520 --> 01:45:44.800
the little clips from w DSU t
V where he's interviewed briefly about the events

1322
01:45:45.439 --> 01:45:51.279
and and uh these were these were
even released on vinyl records in the nineteen

1323
01:45:51.319 --> 01:45:56.439
sixties and seventies, I think.
So anyway, it's just something to point

1324
01:45:56.439 --> 01:46:00.199
out to the listeners he was discussing
that. Now on to Proudy, and

1325
01:46:00.479 --> 01:46:03.760
you know, Proudy's a scientologist and
whatever Prouty is connected to liberty lobby,

1326
01:46:05.119 --> 01:46:08.840
and I don't have trouble saying it
now. I probably will at some point

1327
01:46:08.920 --> 01:46:14.079
and missmix it up because of this, But it happens, much like I

1328
01:46:14.159 --> 01:46:18.079
kept saying Patricia instead of Priscilla.
But you know, things happened mc millen,

1329
01:46:18.239 --> 01:46:23.479
right, it happens. It does, especially when you're going over and

1330
01:46:23.600 --> 01:46:27.760
over stuff. But anyway, America's
untold stories. You know, there might

1331
01:46:27.800 --> 01:46:30.399
be a reason why some of those
stories are untold, And I get it.

1332
01:46:30.560 --> 01:46:34.880
There is a lane for true crime
podcasting out there, and you don't

1333
01:46:34.920 --> 01:46:39.119
have to do much outside of go
into the headlines or know much about the

1334
01:46:39.199 --> 01:46:42.479
case right away. By the way, when the guy is asked do you

1335
01:46:42.560 --> 01:46:45.880
know about this? He says the
most honest thing upfront, which is I

1336
01:46:45.960 --> 01:46:49.800
don't know, because he doesn't he's
heard a rumor, he's heard a speculation

1337
01:46:49.960 --> 01:46:54.680
from somebody about maybe since they were
going to go to the LBJ ranch at

1338
01:46:54.720 --> 01:46:57.880
some point during the Texas trip,
maybe he was going to get killed there,

1339
01:46:58.680 --> 01:47:03.119
and people are contradicted himself in his
own response, yeah, exactly so,

1340
01:47:03.520 --> 01:47:06.399
But but he gave an honest response
to start with. You know,

1341
01:47:06.560 --> 01:47:11.560
the excited utterances of people should always
be observed when they're first confronted with a

1342
01:47:11.640 --> 01:47:15.920
question. Well, and that's that's
added nonsense because everyone knows the best myth

1343
01:47:15.159 --> 01:47:18.239
is the Murchison branch. Well,
that was my next We're going to have

1344
01:47:18.359 --> 01:47:23.439
the party beforehand. I mean that
how much of a steal from that story

1345
01:47:23.640 --> 01:47:28.399
is this new day after they had
guys set up? I mean, once

1346
01:47:28.439 --> 01:47:31.920
again, Lyndon Johnson not a mastermind. No, but you have to file

1347
01:47:32.000 --> 01:47:38.800
criminal certain Yeah, absolutely a criminal
Wallace mac Wallace could have been in the

1348
01:47:38.840 --> 01:47:44.039
Bush's carline. Yeah, rule that
out. Let's not completely even though we've

1349
01:47:44.079 --> 01:47:47.079
been over that on this show.
And again I point you to a faustian

1350
01:47:47.119 --> 01:47:50.199
bargain. Oh no, no,
of course I put you to the faustian

1351
01:47:50.279 --> 01:47:55.720
bargain the book by Joan Mellon.
Uh, you know where she decided to

1352
01:47:56.079 --> 01:48:00.840
what go and actually get some primary
evidence and have an exam by an actual

1353
01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:06.159
expert and double checked the whole thing
about mcwallis's fingerprint being present on the sixth

1354
01:48:06.199 --> 01:48:10.600
floor of the school book depository.
Sorry, yeah, go ahead, Carmi.

1355
01:48:11.600 --> 01:48:14.119
I was just gonna say, and
as Chuck's about to say, it

1356
01:48:14.359 --> 01:48:16.840
was not Yeah, when you actually
checked the records and you see that.

1357
01:48:17.319 --> 01:48:20.520
I believe also the person who originally
made the claim in The Men Who Killed

1358
01:48:20.560 --> 01:48:26.279
Kennedy had no license at the time, had looked at the xerox copying of

1359
01:48:26.359 --> 01:48:30.560
an actual original right on and on
and on. Just things weren't done,

1360
01:48:30.720 --> 01:48:34.920
and that's why these bad ideas continue
to exist. Whereas Joan Mellon Winton had,

1361
01:48:35.119 --> 01:48:40.239
you know, had the fingerprint evidence
acquired that was collected at the time.

1362
01:48:40.520 --> 01:48:46.640
Guess what. Macwallace was inducted into
the military and utilized that particular copy

1363
01:48:46.720 --> 01:48:50.279
of his fingerprints for the comparison and
gave it to a guy who used to

1364
01:48:50.359 --> 01:48:59.520
instruct people directly about fingerprint evidence.
Okay, who went and got again a

1365
01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:02.880
copy of the photograph to examine,
you know, so on and so forth.

1366
01:49:02.960 --> 01:49:08.520
And that's all laid out in the
appendix to that book Faustian barg And

1367
01:49:08.600 --> 01:49:12.520
look it up. It's the Macwallace
story, which quite honestly was not the

1368
01:49:12.920 --> 01:49:16.199
story that she should have written.
If she was really interested in selling books

1369
01:49:16.840 --> 01:49:21.560
or making the waves in the podcast
community, she really should have written a

1370
01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:26.199
book that framed mac Wallace, because
that would have been a whole lot more

1371
01:49:26.279 --> 01:49:30.159
acceptable, sold a lot more books, you know, like the guy who

1372
01:49:30.279 --> 01:49:33.039
literally did and I'm witnessed to it, threatened her directly. Roger Stone,

1373
01:49:33.079 --> 01:49:38.039
who gets away with threatening people all
the time, whether their witnesses he's attempting

1374
01:49:38.079 --> 01:49:42.000
to intimidate and gets pardoned for or
it happens to be a JFK writer that

1375
01:49:42.079 --> 01:49:46.520
disagrees with his crap, you know, one way or another his book,

1376
01:49:46.720 --> 01:49:49.079
and uh, let me see who
else. Oh yeah, the blood,

1377
01:49:49.119 --> 01:49:54.079
money and power thing and that that
whole bit. What was that guy's name,

1378
01:49:54.199 --> 01:49:58.840
bar McLellan? Thank you again?
These are all worthy mentioned it.

1379
01:50:00.199 --> 01:50:03.239
I wish I didn't both, but
these are all worthy of mentions because tonight's

1380
01:50:03.279 --> 01:50:06.039
topic is the myths, and I
figure we might as well get in as

1381
01:50:06.079 --> 01:50:12.720
many as possible. But ultimately,
America's untold stories. Maybe there's a reason

1382
01:50:12.760 --> 01:50:15.199
why they're untold, and maybe you
ought to stick to your true crime headlines

1383
01:50:15.560 --> 01:50:20.359
and not try and present yourselves as
experts because your expertise, and I don't

1384
01:50:20.359 --> 01:50:25.760
call myself an expert, by the
way, but your expertise is not even

1385
01:50:25.880 --> 01:50:30.039
up to the standard of the blind
guy on the microphone right now, okay,

1386
01:50:30.439 --> 01:50:34.000
just saying, just saying, And
I've only got a high school diploma,

1387
01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:38.880
Granted, I'm not a comedian or
a great speaker, as you and

1388
01:50:38.920 --> 01:50:45.319
I exchanged barbs there in Lancer Proves. But again, you know, if

1389
01:50:45.359 --> 01:50:48.359
it's all about attitude and popularity on
YouTube, you win. I got it.

1390
01:50:48.560 --> 01:50:55.520
But you know what can I say? Well, I would say in

1391
01:50:55.600 --> 01:50:59.840
response to that, at least everyone
that did take part in the cover up

1392
01:50:59.840 --> 01:51:05.880
with can prove had a degree.
So congratulations, go I guess. I

1393
01:51:06.000 --> 01:51:13.600
guess it means more well educated people
are willing to lie and they're questioning and

1394
01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:16.720
destroy the legal record at times.
Right, So look, it's not just

1395
01:51:17.119 --> 01:51:20.760
the man you know who killed Kennedy, which, by the way, ironically

1396
01:51:21.159 --> 01:51:25.800
is the same title they used on
that PBS special in what was it eighty

1397
01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:29.680
eight around the twenty fifth anniversary that
David Lifton played a big part in.

1398
01:51:30.560 --> 01:51:33.399
Oh somebody reused that title. Well
that's what they call it. Who killed

1399
01:51:33.479 --> 01:51:35.760
jfk Oh? Yeah? Who killed
cal Moost? Yeah? Yeah. They

1400
01:51:35.840 --> 01:51:38.920
just didn't say the men, Yeah, they just said who good Kennedy?

1401
01:51:38.960 --> 01:51:41.960
The bar part of it because I
was actually, like I told you,

1402
01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:45.600
I was going to try to lay
out some of these guys in an article,

1403
01:51:45.720 --> 01:51:47.359
like just try to take apart the
people that we know for sure weren't

1404
01:51:47.359 --> 01:51:49.760
there, just so we can put
them to bed at least as well as

1405
01:51:49.800 --> 01:51:54.800
we can. But I was still
toying with the men who Didn't Kill Kennedy.

1406
01:51:55.279 --> 01:51:58.079
Well, no, no, that
that's look you're hang on. I

1407
01:51:58.199 --> 01:52:01.159
want to get this straight for everybody
listening. I'm actually talking about the PBS

1408
01:52:01.239 --> 01:52:06.760
special on NOE okay original that was
called Who Killed JFK? Exactly the same

1409
01:52:06.800 --> 01:52:10.680
title that Reiner used. Yeah,
oh okay, I'm sorry. No,

1410
01:52:10.720 --> 01:52:12.680
I thought you were talking about the
men who Kill Kennedy? Okay, yeah,

1411
01:52:12.720 --> 01:52:15.279
no, I didn't know that there
wasn't so he just totally lifted it.

1412
01:52:15.560 --> 01:52:19.199
Yeah, he completely lifted from the
nineteen eighty eight special for his that

1413
01:52:19.359 --> 01:52:23.600
was on PBS. And I'm sure
that Rob Reiner had seen the PBS special

1414
01:52:23.600 --> 01:52:27.079
because he's a PBS kind of guy. And you know, comebye, boys,

1415
01:52:27.119 --> 01:52:30.479
let's make ice kae. There you
go. I mean, I'm just

1416
01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:33.640
saying, yeah, I was going
to ask, did you want to discuss

1417
01:52:33.720 --> 01:52:38.079
more of that? Or do you
mind if I I have a couple more

1418
01:52:38.079 --> 01:52:41.239
assassins? Well, Joe, I
have a question for you, because you

1419
01:52:41.359 --> 01:52:45.079
guys might have I can't sit through
these guys, you know, and their

1420
01:52:45.119 --> 01:52:49.079
podcast and their their their ego thing
that they do on YouTube. I can't

1421
01:52:49.119 --> 01:52:53.880
sit through their stuff. Have you
guys taken a look at any more of

1422
01:52:53.960 --> 01:52:58.560
their alleged work on JFK that they
were so interested in that they had to

1423
01:52:58.600 --> 01:53:01.079
make a presentation at Lancer, which, by the way, I did everything

1424
01:53:01.119 --> 01:53:05.239
in my power, regardless of how
obnoxious they were, to make their appearance

1425
01:53:05.279 --> 01:53:09.880
work because I was the MC and
I even ran around got them a table

1426
01:53:09.920 --> 01:53:13.640
at the last moment. I was
trying to get everything straight and set for

1427
01:53:13.760 --> 01:53:16.800
them and all that good stuff,
accommodate them as best I could as part

1428
01:53:16.840 --> 01:53:23.600
of the team running the event there, you know, and didn't feel as

1429
01:53:23.640 --> 01:53:28.720
though that respect was being repaid back
to the event or myself or anybody else.

1430
01:53:29.439 --> 01:53:32.960
But nonetheless, I attempted to be
a good host of sorts, a

1431
01:53:33.039 --> 01:53:38.560
good master of ceremonies, as was
my job that day. But I'm curious

1432
01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:45.359
and any other evaluations, thank you, but any other evaluations about their presentation

1433
01:53:45.680 --> 01:53:48.319
or other podcasts they've done. I
mean, have they given us anything good

1434
01:53:48.960 --> 01:53:53.159
or have they given us just a
bunch of crap? I mean, Proudy

1435
01:53:53.279 --> 01:53:56.920
was a scientologist and he was nuts. No, he wasn't nuts, but

1436
01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:00.760
he was a scientologist. Was Proudy
a miss represented character? Has he been

1437
01:54:01.159 --> 01:54:06.960
over dramatized as somebody of importance that
maybe he wasn't. Yeah, yeah,

1438
01:54:08.039 --> 01:54:12.520
he was, and the guy who
actually does the kind of job that Proudy

1439
01:54:12.600 --> 01:54:17.039
describes doing. And I'm not saying
that he wasn't a liaison and he wasn't

1440
01:54:17.119 --> 01:54:20.479
somebody who was, you know,
working under some of the things that he

1441
01:54:20.640 --> 01:54:25.880
describes and so on and so forth. But as per usual, when somebody's

1442
01:54:25.920 --> 01:54:30.640
celebrity grows, so does their importance
and their stories evolve. And I think

1443
01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:35.119
that happened to Fletcher Proudy as he
aged. That is my words. My

1444
01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:39.880
idea is about Fletcher Proudy. But
I mean, have they done a presentation

1445
01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:44.960
about Proudy that was good or anything
else you know of good? They've published,

1446
01:54:45.600 --> 01:54:53.359
as to my knowledge, nothing regarding
being jfk assassination in any type of

1447
01:54:53.479 --> 01:54:59.840
research form. As you well know, their topic was AI Oswald, Thank

1448
01:54:59.880 --> 01:55:05.960
you that AI could solve the case. I was not at that presentation.

1449
01:55:06.199 --> 01:55:12.039
I skipped it and went to Deal
Plaza with Doug Campbell. Doug Campbell and

1450
01:55:12.560 --> 01:55:17.920
Monica Eminez Perez, which was the
best decision of my life. And so

1451
01:55:18.159 --> 01:55:21.800
I can't speak to their presentation.
I heard it was more of a Q

1452
01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:32.720
and A and they had their own
little posses after that, and they were

1453
01:55:32.840 --> 01:55:45.199
very disrespectful, and I don't think
they contributed anything substantial or useful to anything

1454
01:55:45.279 --> 01:55:49.359
regarding this case. Fair enough,
look and and in here I go,

1455
01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:53.239
I gotta do the Devil's advocate thing
because it's my show, and that's what

1456
01:55:53.319 --> 01:55:57.479
I do. I would say that, you know, the use of an

1457
01:55:57.640 --> 01:56:03.199
AI program to apt to sort through
the actual evidence might be of interest.

1458
01:56:04.079 --> 01:56:08.479
It might be an interesting idea.
It might be something that would get us

1459
01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:12.119
to sort through a whole bunch of
stuff, like collating all those documents that

1460
01:56:12.159 --> 01:56:15.880
I told you the bureaucracy was way
too bloated to deal with, like turning

1461
01:56:15.960 --> 01:56:21.319
around and matching these things together and
coming up with composites that would reveal certain

1462
01:56:21.399 --> 01:56:26.720
things in the documentation, come up
with answers to various aspects of the case.

1463
01:56:27.319 --> 01:56:29.800
Very much. So, I think
this could be a useful thing and

1464
01:56:29.880 --> 01:56:34.600
a useful idea. But I think
I think you would be right if that

1465
01:56:34.960 --> 01:56:43.000
AI program had context. You need
to study this case for years and years

1466
01:56:43.279 --> 01:56:48.399
and years. To get the context. You might read a document five years

1467
01:56:48.439 --> 01:56:57.439
ago and then read it again yesterday
and pick out some tidbit that you would

1468
01:56:57.479 --> 01:57:02.079
have never known five years ago.
I don't think. I think there could

1469
01:57:02.119 --> 01:57:09.079
be some advantages to it, but
I don't think it could solve the case.

1470
01:57:09.479 --> 01:57:14.359
I don't think the documents exist for
AI to do it, and I

1471
01:57:14.479 --> 01:57:19.760
don't think it has the context necessary
to do it. Well. Look again,

1472
01:57:20.479 --> 01:57:26.960
something that is a force multiplier I
think could be of interest and definitely

1473
01:57:27.119 --> 01:57:31.640
get us to certain resolutions about some
things and come up with some clarity regarding

1474
01:57:31.680 --> 01:57:35.279
certain stuff. And it's not just
about feeding documents into it, although part

1475
01:57:35.319 --> 01:57:39.359
of that context would be based on
what it is you decide to feed into

1476
01:57:39.399 --> 01:57:44.159
it and what it is you decide
not to feed into it. But there's

1477
01:57:44.680 --> 01:57:47.039
possibilities here. I mean. So
I'm just saying it's not a bad idea

1478
01:57:47.119 --> 01:57:51.960
to think, how can we again
adapt a new technology to the old case.

1479
01:57:53.039 --> 01:57:56.079
I think it's not a bad idea, but you know, trying to

1480
01:57:56.119 --> 01:58:01.319
figure out what these guys have actually
contributed and basically understanding that they utilized an

1481
01:58:01.399 --> 01:58:08.239
event which was meant to focus on
a case of interest, not necessarily a

1482
01:58:08.319 --> 01:58:13.199
particular author, a particular ego,
a particular group of people, or anything

1483
01:58:13.359 --> 01:58:15.880
like that. I think these guys
used it as a you know, a

1484
01:58:15.960 --> 01:58:20.279
public appearance, an event for them
for their podcast. And I don't know

1485
01:58:20.319 --> 01:58:26.920
what to say except that you're right, and they now are doing their own

1486
01:58:27.640 --> 01:58:32.000
private events. So them and their
minions. You know, they have like

1487
01:58:32.119 --> 01:58:38.000
almost one hundred I think one hundred
eight thousand followers on YouTube, probably more

1488
01:58:38.319 --> 01:58:43.000
on other platforms. If you think
one percent of those go to those events.

1489
01:58:44.119 --> 01:58:48.520
They don't need to interact with the
research community because they know they can't

1490
01:58:51.279 --> 01:58:57.039
you know, conversate with them,
they can't debate critically with them. So

1491
01:58:57.560 --> 01:59:00.119
they're gonna do their own thing,
and they're going to live in their their

1492
01:59:00.159 --> 01:59:05.399
own little world, and they're going
to tell their own stories emphasis on America's

1493
01:59:05.520 --> 01:59:12.920
untold stories. And Robert is a
great storyteller, and I give him credit

1494
01:59:13.119 --> 01:59:20.079
for getting some people involved or interested
in the jfk assassination. I think there

1495
01:59:20.119 --> 01:59:25.880
are positives to what they have done, and I think a lot of what

1496
01:59:26.079 --> 01:59:32.680
they say is true, but significant
part isn't. And that's the part,

1497
01:59:32.800 --> 01:59:41.920
the sensationalism part where they sensationalize,
sensationalize certain aspects for clicks, reviews for

1498
01:59:42.079 --> 01:59:53.359
money, and obviously Rob I Carmine
you we are very much research and document

1499
01:59:53.439 --> 01:59:58.039
based, so that is the difference. Yeah. Look, and as per

1500
01:59:58.119 --> 02:00:00.560
usual credit where credits do? They're
doing pretty well as far as it is,

1501
02:00:00.720 --> 02:00:03.760
you know, uh, making a
YouTube channel work for them on their

1502
02:00:03.800 --> 02:00:08.560
behalf, and I wish them all
the best of luck, but I think

1503
02:00:08.560 --> 02:00:12.399
they're better off doing their own thing
and not trying to, you know,

1504
02:00:12.600 --> 02:00:15.079
go into the fray that is the
research community, which has problems of its

1505
02:00:15.079 --> 02:00:19.359
own and doesn't need this. So, you know, much as I appreciated

1506
02:00:19.399 --> 02:00:27.760
their their appearance and their you know
seeming seeming attempt to raise awareness for the

1507
02:00:27.880 --> 02:00:31.000
conference and uh, you know,
a very serious issue and all that,

1508
02:00:33.119 --> 02:00:35.880
what can I say? I I
would say that the people that take them

1509
02:00:35.960 --> 02:00:41.319
seriously, well, you know what
that's on you? What can I tell

1510
02:00:41.359 --> 02:00:45.279
you? You know, look,
I make mistakes and whatnot, But my

1511
02:00:45.439 --> 02:00:49.159
efforts are not about pushing my own
name out there. They're not about,

1512
02:00:49.520 --> 02:00:56.720
you know, raising awareness for a
general story that needs to be told without

1513
02:00:57.279 --> 02:01:01.760
trying to find the best way to
certain obscured evidence and things like that when

1514
02:01:01.800 --> 02:01:04.439
it comes to any of the things
that I discuss on this show, I

1515
02:01:04.560 --> 02:01:09.479
try and get at the things that
maybe you're not hearing elsewhere. But but

1516
02:01:09.600 --> 02:01:15.159
I always go after that which I
think is based best in the reality,

1517
02:01:15.359 --> 02:01:18.880
not necessarily the official story, not
necessarily the junk food that is the media,

1518
02:01:19.399 --> 02:01:26.239
and definitely not the strangeness. That
was much better focused and did feature

1519
02:01:26.319 --> 02:01:30.720
some interesting people, you know,
like the Who Killed JFK podcast? But

1520
02:01:31.319 --> 02:01:34.880
and and it sounds like, you
know, we've now devolved into criticizing other

1521
02:01:35.000 --> 02:01:39.920
podcasters. No, it's about the
information they're putting out. What is the

1522
02:01:40.039 --> 02:01:44.560
value of the information America's untold stories
put out? If you can find the

1523
02:01:44.640 --> 02:01:46.760
value in it, do me a
favor, write to me info atochelly dot

1524
02:01:46.840 --> 02:01:50.840
com. Show it to me.
I don't see it. But then again,

1525
02:01:51.000 --> 02:01:58.239
with the Rob Reiner thing, it's
a it's a whole composite of just

1526
02:01:58.560 --> 02:02:02.800
wow, static and stuff. And
you've just been riding and that. So

1527
02:02:03.119 --> 02:02:08.359
anyway, Carmine, is there anything
that we should close on here or should

1528
02:02:08.399 --> 02:02:13.279
we com you know, conclude this
episode of JFK myths? Uh, if

1529
02:02:13.560 --> 02:02:17.159
you don't mind, I'll burn through
these three assassins how about that, Joe.

1530
02:02:17.359 --> 02:02:21.720
We can put that to bed and
never have to visit Rob. What

1531
02:02:21.800 --> 02:02:29.119
do you say? We burned through
the three assassins and uh and and finish

1532
02:02:29.239 --> 02:02:32.239
up with the Rob Reiners section.
Again, this is not about them personally

1533
02:02:32.399 --> 02:02:36.000
or anything like that. Although you
know, you guys might take it personal

1534
02:02:36.079 --> 02:02:41.479
with the Loan gun Man, uh, the Loan Gunman podcast, you might

1535
02:02:41.520 --> 02:02:45.840
take it very seriously uh and personally, but I don't. It's just I

1536
02:02:45.279 --> 02:02:48.880
think they're just out there for a
different purpose. And uh, you know

1537
02:02:48.960 --> 02:02:51.720
what, God bless you, ma'am. What can I say? No?

1538
02:02:53.039 --> 02:02:56.600
And and and we don't. But
then when they told us to go f

1539
02:02:56.720 --> 02:03:00.800
ourselves, we you know, you
know Rob uh on my nose, Rob,

1540
02:03:01.600 --> 02:03:08.039
I have a similar personality to Rob. And we weren't undressing their comment

1541
02:03:08.399 --> 02:03:13.279
their content. We were talking about
how funny it was that they said liberty,

1542
02:03:13.319 --> 02:03:18.520
lobbity, and then they told us
to go for ourselves. Then we

1543
02:03:18.600 --> 02:03:23.520
went off on them for their obvious
bs. You know, we knew what

1544
02:03:23.600 --> 02:03:30.880
they were from the beginning, which
was just a storytelling podcast. They Grobert

1545
02:03:31.399 --> 02:03:39.199
says he's been researching for fifty years
and very well apparently you know, look,

1546
02:03:39.439 --> 02:03:44.600
you can do one piece thing's wrong
forever, and that doesn't necessarily mean

1547
02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:47.520
that lends any credence to what you
say. Yeah, I mean, look,

1548
02:03:47.600 --> 02:03:53.680
I know somebody personally that's been driving
for about fifty years, and quite

1549
02:03:53.720 --> 02:03:57.560
honestly, they've been in so many
accidents I've lost count. It doesn't mean

1550
02:03:57.600 --> 02:04:00.520
they did it well for the past
fifty years, but they have survived.

1551
02:04:00.439 --> 02:04:03.479
So it is what it is.
And I still can't remember which one of

1552
02:04:03.520 --> 02:04:06.880
them is the comedian, but anyway, it is what it is. Okay,

1553
02:04:08.119 --> 02:04:15.319
go ahead, Carmela, So if
we're ready. Indeed, so we

1554
02:04:15.479 --> 02:04:25.399
left off at Rmarcia the first one, Yeah, Herminio. Well, I'm

1555
02:04:25.479 --> 02:04:27.760
just so happy that I was able
to find his real first name, which

1556
02:04:27.760 --> 02:04:31.039
is Sandalio. They don't even call
the guy by his name. But anyway,

1557
02:04:32.079 --> 02:04:35.520
getting back to it, So the
next claimed assassin's military figure, Lieutenant

1558
02:04:35.640 --> 02:04:41.680
Colonel Jack Cannon. Dick Russell states
while he was undertaking a book, Richard

1559
02:04:41.800 --> 02:04:45.560
case Nagel would tell him quote Cannon
was part of the CIA unit that reported

1560
02:04:45.600 --> 02:04:49.560
to Willoughby, and he indicated that
Canon was directly involved in the assassination of

1561
02:04:49.640 --> 02:04:58.920
JFK. Beyond some largely unproven claims
the podcast offers nothing regarding canon or precisely

1562
02:04:58.960 --> 02:05:02.760
would make him a viable assassin.
So since the podcast series has again failed

1563
02:05:02.800 --> 02:05:09.800
to provide us with background, I
decided to find out information and more about

1564
02:05:10.039 --> 02:05:15.319
this figure offered. Joseph Jack Young
Cannon was born in mid nineteen fourteen,

1565
02:05:15.359 --> 02:05:18.840
and his mother's German origin allowed him
to learn her native language. This detail

1566
02:05:18.880 --> 02:05:23.119
proved of later used during his World
War II enlistment with the United States and

1567
02:05:23.159 --> 02:05:27.159
military. According to one source,
he quote served in Borneo and Manila during

1568
02:05:27.199 --> 02:05:30.119
World War II as an explosives expert
and became one of the first Americans to

1569
02:05:30.239 --> 02:05:34.520
enter Tokyo after the war, arriving
in September nineteen forty five as a member

1570
02:05:34.600 --> 02:05:40.600
of the four hundred and eleventh Counterintelligence
Corps see see. Cannon is credited with

1571
02:05:40.760 --> 02:05:45.000
using explosives to quote open the safe
at the German embassy, where he discovered

1572
02:05:45.039 --> 02:05:50.800
documents that showed the Nestorious Sorga spir
ring was still in operation. Richard Sorga

1573
02:05:50.920 --> 02:05:55.399
was a member of the press who
had also been creating Soviet spirings for gathering

1574
02:05:55.439 --> 02:06:00.079
intelligence prior to nineteen twenty five.
In multiple nations. Sorga was used in

1575
02:06:00.119 --> 02:06:02.760
a ring of agents and postwar Japan
as well, until he was apprehended by

1576
02:06:02.760 --> 02:06:08.359
the Japanese and executed amidst nineteen forty
one, but elements of his operation survived

1577
02:06:08.760 --> 02:06:13.560
until they're discovery by Canon years later. When he presented the documents to superiors

1578
02:06:13.600 --> 02:06:15.359
in G two, he was given
command of his own agents to seek out

1579
02:06:15.439 --> 02:06:21.079
further enemies in Japan. Quote originally
known as Z Unit, It was created

1580
02:06:21.119 --> 02:06:25.960
in nineteen forty six, along with
other groups by G two Intelligence Wing of

1581
02:06:26.039 --> 02:06:30.199
the General Headquarters under Major General Charles
A. Willoughby. Z Unit was formed

1582
02:06:30.239 --> 02:06:35.239
to combat the progress of communist forces
abroad and the increased demonstration of Quote leftist

1583
02:06:35.319 --> 02:06:41.680
groups within Japan. Lieutenant Colonel Jack
Cannon used Army Intelligences Z Unit, headquartered

1584
02:06:41.720 --> 02:06:45.520
in Tokyo, to conduct intelligence operations
with Japan, North Korea, and Soviet

1585
02:06:45.600 --> 02:06:49.680
areas. According to the CIA,
this group became known as the Quote Cannon

1586
02:06:49.760 --> 02:06:55.359
Agency, and one media source notes
the Cannon Agency was a black operation group

1587
02:06:55.399 --> 02:06:59.079
that dates back to the early days
of the occupation of Japan by US military

1588
02:06:59.199 --> 02:07:02.359
forces. Cannon recruited more than two
dozen agents that he would train to undertake

1589
02:07:02.439 --> 02:07:08.720
quote secret operations against the Soviet Union
and communist sympathizers in Japan. We pause

1590
02:07:08.760 --> 02:07:13.720
for one second. This is interesting. I don't understand. You know,

1591
02:07:13.840 --> 02:07:16.119
there's more to go and I'll finish
it quickly, but there's so much,

1592
02:07:16.239 --> 02:07:19.439
like even about Garcia's well, there
was so much interesting background that might have

1593
02:07:19.520 --> 02:07:24.000
actually given some weight to some of
the things they said, but they never

1594
02:07:24.079 --> 02:07:27.520
bothered. Well, look, they
just threw these names out and those are

1595
02:07:27.520 --> 02:07:30.800
the guys. That's our best educated
guests. And they're doing it in approximately

1596
02:07:30.920 --> 02:07:35.399
half hour chunks, except for the
bonus episodes and the introduction. You know,

1597
02:07:35.439 --> 02:07:40.319
because I looked over, I seimmed
and I couldn't sit through this podcast.

1598
02:07:40.640 --> 02:07:43.439
I gotta tell you, even though
it's an average of a half hour

1599
02:07:43.560 --> 02:07:46.880
each episode, I couldn't sit through
it because it was such a mess and

1600
02:07:47.000 --> 02:07:49.960
it hurt. But it made me
want to find out more about the people

1601
02:07:50.039 --> 02:07:54.560
they claimed so that I could disprove
it. Right. But they even had

1602
02:07:54.640 --> 02:07:57.800
these ten and fifteen minute bonuses,
and I'm like, oh, it just

1603
02:07:58.039 --> 02:08:01.239
it was so much and I'm not
they had good material. They didn't.

1604
02:08:01.319 --> 02:08:03.359
I mean, if they just would
have a little bit of work anyway,

1605
02:08:03.479 --> 02:08:05.600
a little bit of work. All
they would have had to do is had

1606
02:08:05.680 --> 02:08:09.720
Solidad O'Brien or somebody sit there and
go ahead, different voice, even if

1607
02:08:09.720 --> 02:08:13.239
Brian Er didn't want to read it, right, have somebody do a read

1608
02:08:13.439 --> 02:08:18.079
of and for background information and if
completely different voice drops in, you know,

1609
02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:22.520
sort of like a documentary film where
you have different voices come on and

1610
02:08:22.600 --> 02:08:26.479
it shifts around. And I think
but I think they were also concerned about

1611
02:08:26.520 --> 02:08:30.079
losing people's interest here with the way
they designed this, cause I think it's

1612
02:08:30.119 --> 02:08:33.760
anywhere from twenty five to thirty eight
minutes is the average. Yeah, they

1613
02:08:33.800 --> 02:08:37.439
were not trying to cater to people
want the deep dove, right, So

1614
02:08:37.199 --> 02:08:41.039
but anyway, go go ahead.
That's why I think the backgrounds were not

1615
02:08:41.119 --> 02:08:43.199
included. But you're right, just
a little, I mean a little,

1616
02:08:43.239 --> 02:08:46.960
because you're what I'm about to go
into is like Bond villain esque. Kevin's

1617
02:08:48.039 --> 02:08:50.439
interesting. I mean, he didn't
do it, probably nothing to do with

1618
02:08:50.520 --> 02:08:54.520
whatsoever based on what they've claimed.
Yeah, but he's an interesting figure,

1619
02:08:54.760 --> 02:08:58.279
an interesting character they should explore right
now, Joe, don't you think that

1620
02:08:58.479 --> 02:09:03.159
even when you're bringing up somebody that
you're not about to add into the legitimate

1621
02:09:03.800 --> 02:09:09.039
plot it is of interest to say, let's tell you who the hell this

1622
02:09:09.199 --> 02:09:11.800
guy is. I mean, don't
you think that would have been a great

1623
02:09:11.800 --> 02:09:16.199
way to go about it and give
some of these you know, more I

1624
02:09:16.239 --> 02:09:20.600
don't know, expansive and informative details. What do you think, Joe?

1625
02:09:22.760 --> 02:09:30.039
Of course I do. And Jack
Cannon is a very interesting figure. He

1626
02:09:30.359 --> 02:09:39.760
apparently was involved in Cuban activities back
until nineteen sixty one, based on a

1627
02:09:39.880 --> 02:09:52.359
document that Rob found but and apparently
had some connection to Santiago's disappearance in nineteen

1628
02:09:52.399 --> 02:10:00.600
sixty four or capture that's of it
or were and they covered the on their

1629
02:10:00.720 --> 02:10:05.039
last quick hits, but it Yes, you have to provide context, you

1630
02:10:05.159 --> 02:10:13.600
have to provide some sources to be
taken seriously. But that wasn't the goal.

1631
02:10:13.880 --> 02:10:18.000
The goal was to sell it,
just like the other one, exact

1632
02:10:20.239 --> 02:10:26.920
exactly. Just tell a good story, and that was the goal and that's

1633
02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:31.760
what they did. And just note
to the listener, I have uncredited voice

1634
02:10:31.840 --> 02:10:35.880
reads that that people have asked me
to do for some of these other podcasts.

1635
02:10:35.119 --> 02:10:37.840
I'm not going to say which ones
or anything, but you can find

1636
02:10:37.880 --> 02:10:43.800
it out there where I've turned around
and I've read somebody's background bio dropped it

1637
02:10:43.880 --> 02:10:48.720
in for somebody else on other podcasts. Okay, so I know it's possible,

1638
02:10:48.840 --> 02:10:52.800
and it doesn't make your time run
too bad if you give me a

1639
02:10:52.880 --> 02:10:58.600
minute or two to do what Carmine's
doing right here, Philly. Yeah,

1640
02:10:58.840 --> 02:11:03.159
we just consolidate, you know,
the most important points and right four or

1641
02:11:03.239 --> 02:11:07.359
five interesting points of this is why
this guy could be an operator of some

1642
02:11:07.640 --> 02:11:11.279
type, whether you believe him to
be or not. And what's ironic is

1643
02:11:11.399 --> 02:11:16.000
is that as I'll finish this off, you'll see that Kennon actually would have

1644
02:11:16.000 --> 02:11:20.359
been a much better mastermind type than
he would have ever been in an assassin.

1645
02:11:20.399 --> 02:11:22.479
I don't think he did either.
I don't think he was connected whatsoever.

1646
02:11:24.039 --> 02:11:26.880
But I think that a figure like
him, kind of like when I

1647
02:11:28.000 --> 02:11:33.680
talk about John Henry Hill, the
one that I traced fifteen minutes away from

1648
02:11:33.720 --> 02:11:37.560
Daily Plaza just before, a figure
like that in the mold of what we're

1649
02:11:37.560 --> 02:11:41.279
looking for. So anyway, you're
talking about the guy who was pissed at

1650
02:11:41.319 --> 02:11:43.159
Kennedy and then turned around and bought
a gun that day. That guy,

1651
02:11:43.319 --> 02:11:46.640
yep, and then walked down the
streets of Dallas. This is a guy

1652
02:11:46.680 --> 02:11:52.680
gun with a gun in his hands
on the streets of Dallas moments before.

1653
02:11:52.239 --> 02:11:56.880
Yeah, finished lunch with his wife
twenty minutes before the assassination, and then

1654
02:11:56.560 --> 02:12:00.720
was no one knew where he went
after, which have been a person of

1655
02:12:00.800 --> 02:12:03.319
interest to Jess poof goes away on
a hunting trip. Yeah, well he

1656
02:12:03.439 --> 02:12:09.279
was a millionaire too, but anyways, Okay, go ahead. So the

1657
02:12:09.359 --> 02:12:13.600
group's headquarters in Japan was called the
Hongo House, a large estate with a

1658
02:12:13.640 --> 02:12:20.760
reported seventeen thousand acre premises that was
comprised of multiple buildings that included a mansion,

1659
02:12:20.800 --> 02:12:24.119
a quote forty four room Japanese style
house, and billiard house. Cannon

1660
02:12:24.199 --> 02:12:30.039
was a noted firearms officionado, according
to one former agent, and could recite

1661
02:12:30.079 --> 02:12:35.680
the specifications of many firearms. Quote. Decorated the immense estates gardens with empty

1662
02:12:35.720 --> 02:12:39.560
cans, bottles, and even light
bulbs. He would conduct daily target practice

1663
02:12:39.640 --> 02:12:43.680
quote, often firing from his desk
with the gold plated pistol he always carried.

1664
02:12:43.239 --> 02:12:48.720
He spent most of his time undertaking
intelligence operations, repeated combat with local

1665
02:12:48.800 --> 02:12:52.319
gangs, and developing his pistol expertise. Well certainly, this colorful personality often

1666
02:12:52.399 --> 02:12:58.319
practiced with the pistol. None of
the information regards rifle expertise or constant practice

1667
02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:01.319
of larger weapons. But it,
like I said, it's almost a bond

1668
02:13:01.439 --> 02:13:05.439
Esk villain that he's got a gold
plated gun he always carries around and he's

1669
02:13:05.439 --> 02:13:13.439
always shooting things from his desk in
a mansion. Why not yeah, Okay.

1670
02:13:13.600 --> 02:13:16.640
So the Cannon group carried arms,
made arrests, and carried out interrogations.

1671
02:13:18.119 --> 02:13:22.920
They also reportedly conducted kidnappings, used
torture, and operated safehouses that spanned

1672
02:13:22.920 --> 02:13:28.039
across Japan. Among Cannon's successes was
the infiltration of the quote newly established government

1673
02:13:28.119 --> 02:13:33.159
of the DPRK Democratic People's Republic of
Korea in North Korea in mid nineteen forty

1674
02:13:33.159 --> 02:13:37.439
eight. Using criminal informants, Cannon
would learn that North Korea was quote manufacturing

1675
02:13:37.520 --> 02:13:43.159
heroin to flood the Tokyo Yokohama area
with it. Cannon Agency interpreter Victor Matsui

1676
02:13:43.359 --> 02:13:46.000
noted the goal of the DPRK was
to sell the drugs in Japan and provide

1677
02:13:46.000 --> 02:13:50.279
those resources to Japan's Communist Party.
A more insidious connected goal of this effort

1678
02:13:50.319 --> 02:13:54.560
by North Korea was to quote turn
as many American soldiers into possible heroin addicts

1679
02:13:54.720 --> 02:14:00.279
as possible and to render them useless
for the upcoming battle they expect in the

1680
02:14:00.359 --> 02:14:05.520
future clashes between communist aligned nations of
the United States. Attempting to neutralize this

1681
02:14:05.600 --> 02:14:11.119
effort, Canon would direct his agents
to impersonate a Yakuza Japanese criminal gang and

1682
02:14:11.239 --> 02:14:15.760
deal with the North Koreans to capture
as much of the heroin sent for distribution

1683
02:14:15.880 --> 02:14:20.239
as possible. While this did temporarily
negate the attempts of the DPRK, eventually

1684
02:14:20.319 --> 02:14:24.640
the ruse was detected and with no
large growth in American military drug users emerged.

1685
02:14:26.239 --> 02:14:30.399
This prompted the North Koreans to make
contacts with genuine Yakuza gangs inside Japan

1686
02:14:30.760 --> 02:14:33.520
and set up a network for distributing
their illicit products, and the Canon Agency

1687
02:14:33.600 --> 02:14:39.039
reacted by violent attacks on such groups, aiding North Koreans. During one gunfight

1688
02:14:39.079 --> 02:14:41.319
with Yakuza gangs, Canon himself was
injured after being shot in the leg.

1689
02:14:43.000 --> 02:14:46.640
The Canon Agency would quickly be shut
down by the authority of the Central Intelligence

1690
02:14:46.680 --> 02:14:50.399
Agency, who assumed operational control of
their projects in the fifties. Canon during

1691
02:14:50.439 --> 02:14:54.760
nineteen fifty two was transferred by request
to Fort Hood and Following his later retirement,

1692
02:14:54.760 --> 02:15:00.600
would eventually invent new types of firearms
ammunition. While attempting to perfect the

1693
02:15:00.680 --> 02:15:03.880
glacier safety slug and building a gun
in his McClean, Texas home, Canon

1694
02:15:03.880 --> 02:15:09.359
would accidentally discharge two rounds into his
chest and died from the wounds. Regarding

1695
02:15:09.560 --> 02:15:11.960
I'm sorry, well, yeah,
I just you know, I'm thinking to

1696
02:15:13.039 --> 02:15:16.039
myself, this is very interesting detail, a whole lot of stuff that we

1697
02:15:16.199 --> 02:15:20.239
missed, and uh, there's the
end of his life. I think we

1698
02:15:20.279 --> 02:15:24.199
can move on to the next guy
and get into you know, kind of

1699
02:15:24.319 --> 02:15:26.439
kind of tie a bow on this, because we're about two and a half

1700
02:15:26.560 --> 02:15:30.079
hours in. It's a little longer
than the other ones, and I think

1701
02:15:30.439 --> 02:15:33.640
would to be continued obviously, but
I don't want to, you know,

1702
02:15:33.760 --> 02:15:35.880
go way too point. I know
we can took you on the other stuff,

1703
02:15:35.880 --> 02:15:39.039
but I'm gonna be able to knock
out these right now, these because

1704
02:15:39.560 --> 02:15:43.760
when you'll see so good. So
regarding the Canon allegation, I would know

1705
02:15:43.880 --> 02:15:48.800
the other lack of credibility of Degale's
statements based upon past claims and no offered

1706
02:15:48.840 --> 02:15:52.560
evidence. Further, since he had
no access to CIA files groups of personnel

1707
02:15:52.560 --> 02:15:56.880
in years before the assassination, Migul
could not have any knowledge of a special

1708
02:15:56.960 --> 02:16:01.479
compartmentalized group operating in that period with
Cannon. I additionally would have mentioned that

1709
02:16:01.520 --> 02:16:07.439
Canon appeared years prior in an interview
with Russell conducted with Gerald Heming, another

1710
02:16:07.000 --> 02:16:11.199
questionable source of JFK information, in
which Heming claims that Cannon is a mafia

1711
02:16:11.279 --> 02:16:15.960
related figure well certainly in Japan.
Cannon and his agents during the forties and

1712
02:16:16.000 --> 02:16:20.239
early fifties would impersonate in these criminal
sources. There's no proven relationship between him

1713
02:16:20.239 --> 02:16:22.720
and the US mafia. The supposed
idea appears to be that a man nearly

1714
02:16:22.800 --> 02:16:26.760
fifty years old with an old leg, injury, no proven practice, a

1715
02:16:26.800 --> 02:16:31.159
demonstrable motive, or being present is
one of the assassins. Similar to the

1716
02:16:31.199 --> 02:16:33.879
Garcia claim, this has no proof
but relies upon endorsements of men found to

1717
02:16:33.920 --> 02:16:39.920
have been wrong repeatedly. The third
assassin named was Jean Sautra. He is

1718
02:16:39.959 --> 02:16:45.799
a quite infamous terrorist that attempted to
engage with US officials to seek the overthrow

1719
02:16:45.799 --> 02:16:50.040
of France's government under Charles de Gaulle. After being rebuffed by American leaders.

1720
02:16:50.040 --> 02:16:52.399
He would later claim that he was
in Dallas and was quote expelled from the

1721
02:16:52.520 --> 02:16:56.319
US at Fort Worth or Dallas forty
eight hours after the assassination. Yet the

1722
02:16:56.399 --> 02:17:01.680
basis of this story is merely South
himself, and it rests upon the belief

1723
02:17:01.760 --> 02:17:07.399
of French officials, but has no
evidence to support it. If one trusts

1724
02:17:07.600 --> 02:17:11.879
Sautra's word, what is one to
think when he subsequently claimed to the press

1725
02:17:11.959 --> 02:17:16.079
later that he possessed no connection to
the assassination. Additionally, I noted sautra

1726
02:17:16.120 --> 02:17:20.639
associate Lawrence Alderson would claim the French
criminal was involved with the JFK assassination,

1727
02:17:22.239 --> 02:17:26.879
but this was after he told the
FBI earlier that to his knowledge, Sautra

1728
02:17:26.040 --> 02:17:31.600
was not in the United States during
that period. These purported ideas rely upon

1729
02:17:31.639 --> 02:17:35.520
the shifting words of a man that
no evidence proves as present in the US

1730
02:17:35.559 --> 02:17:39.360
of the day of the assassination.
Motivations for his tale could have related to

1731
02:17:39.399 --> 02:17:43.559
seeking to project greater power to those
who spurned him, or authority for himself

1732
02:17:43.600 --> 02:17:48.200
in the OS, but in the
end, the French connection, when compared

1733
02:17:48.200 --> 02:17:52.639
to several documents, is quite deceptive. Finally, Charles de Colletti, he

1734
02:17:52.799 --> 02:17:58.440
was a notorious Chicago hitman and a
forcer for my boss am Giancana and this

1735
02:17:58.639 --> 02:18:01.760
series is just one of men over
the years attempting to place him a daily

1736
02:18:01.799 --> 02:18:05.760
plaza. When I was inspecting the
claims of mythmaker James Files in a past

1737
02:18:05.879 --> 02:18:09.159
article, I came across quite useful
information regarding Nicoletti. FBI documents from the

1738
02:18:09.200 --> 02:18:13.680
period before and following the assassination of
President Kennedy would challenge suppositions of his guilt

1739
02:18:13.719 --> 02:18:18.440
in this matter. Similar to Johnny
Rosselli and other high ranking mafia figures,

1740
02:18:18.559 --> 02:18:22.920
Nicoletti was under Federal Bureau of Investigation
surveillance due to his association as sam Di

1741
02:18:24.040 --> 02:18:28.639
Stefano. A week before JFK died, Nicoletti and his associate were under investigation

1742
02:18:28.760 --> 02:18:35.120
for the murder of Leo Foreman,
a suspected FBI inforemant Foreman's body was discovered

1743
02:18:35.159 --> 02:18:39.360
less than a week before the assassination, and Nicoletti is last observed in Chicago

1744
02:18:39.440 --> 02:18:45.600
by official informants. Nicoletti is obviously
busy with his criminal enterprises within Chicago and

1745
02:18:45.799 --> 02:18:50.200
under official surveillance during the proportions of
this period. It's highly improbable he could

1746
02:18:50.200 --> 02:18:56.319
have somehow contrived a role in the
assassination then rushed to Dallas unseen by anyone

1747
02:18:56.760 --> 02:19:01.239
days prior. As some might claim. Once again, we are faced with

1748
02:19:01.319 --> 02:19:05.200
an infamous person that has been attributed
a role in these events, but these

1749
02:19:05.280 --> 02:19:09.719
allegations lack any evidence or basic proof
that he was even in the state of

1750
02:19:09.799 --> 02:19:13.079
Texas that day. Ultimately, if
we count all the people named in the

1751
02:19:13.159 --> 02:19:18.399
podcast that supposedly had a foreknowledge of
the plot, we have Charles Willoughby,

1752
02:19:18.440 --> 02:19:22.399
William E. Harvey E. Howard
Hunt, Robert Plumley, Johnny Rosselli,

1753
02:19:22.520 --> 02:19:28.639
Jack Cannon, Charles Nicoletti, Jean
Sautra, Richard Miguel Hermenio Garcia, Maurice

1754
02:19:28.760 --> 02:19:33.559
Bishop. At least eleven people.
One would assume that Nicolette and Rosselli were

1755
02:19:33.600 --> 02:19:37.879
needed in order from would have needed
an order from a higher ranky mafioso,

1756
02:19:37.479 --> 02:19:39.959
or would have been used by a
handler, and that would add to the

1757
02:19:41.000 --> 02:19:45.000
growing list of supposed conspirators, agents, and assassins. Remember, those are

1758
02:19:45.239 --> 02:19:48.479
just the people they said were on
the ground. That's not the conspirators,

1759
02:19:48.920 --> 02:19:52.399
that's not handlers. So just add
to that total. But there's no need

1760
02:19:52.440 --> 02:19:56.920
to add to the list because that
would contend it already contains unnecessary people such

1761
02:19:56.920 --> 02:20:00.600
as Negel, plumble Hunt, Nicoletti, Roselli, and Sautra, who we

1762
02:20:00.680 --> 02:20:05.000
know are elsewhere or have proven of
being consistent. Garcia, Bishop and Canon

1763
02:20:05.360 --> 02:20:09.520
rest upon the gal and Escalante,
which both have believed in false leads,

1764
02:20:09.680 --> 02:20:13.879
created false stories, and provide no
evidence to support their ideas. William Harvey

1765
02:20:13.920 --> 02:20:18.479
and or Willoughby have been the source
of conspiracy ideas by multiple offers, but

1766
02:20:18.520 --> 02:20:22.079
again we venture into recycled speculations without
evidence. Harvey at least is certainly a

1767
02:20:22.120 --> 02:20:26.319
figure in the mold of someone that
could be involved, but anyone could be

1768
02:20:26.520 --> 02:20:31.360
involved. In the end, the
answer Reiner provides us as to who killed

1769
02:20:31.399 --> 02:20:39.440
GfK is his best guess. There's
no foundation of demonstrable facts, and you've

1770
02:20:39.600 --> 02:20:45.760
just been rined. Yeah, that
was the moment. There we go,

1771
02:20:46.239 --> 02:20:50.760
So you know, it is what
it is. And again when you just

1772
02:20:50.360 --> 02:20:56.600
sit back for a second and try
to place Nicoletti together with you know,

1773
02:20:58.280 --> 02:21:03.280
the French guy alongside of the Cuban
guy alongside how in the hell do you

1774
02:21:03.440 --> 02:21:09.120
even pull this composite together? You
know, it's it's much like the weirdest

1775
02:21:09.239 --> 02:21:13.879
of people that that that seem to
think that they have this definite idea about

1776
02:21:13.000 --> 02:21:16.440
you know, uh, well sam
Gi and Kanna, you know, Salgi

1777
02:21:16.520 --> 02:21:20.040
and Kanna took you know, Salvatore
was his real first name. But the

1778
02:21:20.159 --> 02:21:26.319
point is they they they they say
he took over the mafia during this particular

1779
02:21:26.399 --> 02:21:31.559
year in Chicago, and therefore blah
blah blah blah blah, and this links

1780
02:21:31.600 --> 02:21:35.360
to Nicoletti, and this lynks to
guess what James files, uh, you

1781
02:21:35.440 --> 02:21:39.239
know, so on and so forth. Look, if you eliminate even the

1782
02:21:39.280 --> 02:21:43.920
bad pieces of evidence, you have
giant holes here where it's almost impossible to

1783
02:21:45.040 --> 02:21:50.200
tie people together. It's like assuming
and it's just I've seen this before with

1784
02:21:50.360 --> 02:21:52.280
you know, with the LBJ idea. Right, It's like, well,

1785
02:21:52.559 --> 02:21:58.600
he was corrupt, Yes, indeed, corruption is also not a murderer,

1786
02:21:58.680 --> 02:22:01.559
first of all. But let's just
say he was a murder. And that's

1787
02:22:01.600 --> 02:22:05.280
what I think people don't understand,
is that he was a criminal. He

1788
02:22:05.360 --> 02:22:09.520
might have even been likely responsible for
murders, just not the murder. We're

1789
02:22:09.559 --> 02:22:11.760
interested. There's the problem. It's
not about, you know, was he

1790
02:22:11.840 --> 02:22:16.920
a bad guy. It's not about
is you know, Nicoletti capable of killing

1791
02:22:16.959 --> 02:22:18.600
people? Sure he is. Oh
yeah, they're all villains and yeah,

1792
02:22:18.959 --> 02:22:22.520
the men we talked about earlier are
all villains and murderers, but that doesn't

1793
02:22:22.559 --> 02:22:26.600
mean they kill JFK, especially when
most of them are on the other side

1794
02:22:26.639 --> 02:22:28.840
of the continents. Sometimes there you
go, So you got to you gotta

1795
02:22:28.879 --> 02:22:31.959
use some logic. You got to
put people you know, at least not

1796
02:22:33.239 --> 02:22:39.399
somewhere else at the time. Okay, if you can definitively place them elsewhere,

1797
02:22:39.799 --> 02:22:43.159
then they can't physically be their shooters. And this is the trouble,

1798
02:22:43.239 --> 02:22:46.920
over and over again. If you
don't dig into this and actually do the

1799
02:22:48.040 --> 02:22:50.840
research and track these things down,
and it's not easy, but if you

1800
02:22:52.000 --> 02:22:54.559
don't, you're going to end up
with the mythology. You're going to end

1801
02:22:54.680 --> 02:22:58.760
up with, Well, maybe the
Zabruterer film was faked and therefore the limo

1802
02:22:58.879 --> 02:23:01.319
driver shot him, And if the
limo driver didn't shot him, maybe the

1803
02:23:01.360 --> 02:23:05.040
guy behind him with the AR fifteen
shot him in the head back accidentally.

1804
02:23:05.879 --> 02:23:11.879
If you know, you end up
with those things seeming plausible because why you

1805
02:23:11.959 --> 02:23:16.879
don't know the actual evidence. If
you did, you'd know that these things

1806
02:23:16.920 --> 02:23:20.440
are disqualified on the face of the
claim to begin with. So anyway,

1807
02:23:22.000 --> 02:23:24.440
with that, I appreciate you guys
taking the time. Joe, I want

1808
02:23:24.479 --> 02:23:28.799
to get your overall impressions of this
for a minute before we close out and

1809
02:23:30.159 --> 02:23:33.200
let everybody know where they can find
The Loan Gunman. I'm going to give

1810
02:23:33.239 --> 02:23:37.040
links, any links you can send
me afterwards, I'll add to the show

1811
02:23:37.120 --> 02:23:39.040
notes and all that, but any
links you want to give me, I'll

1812
02:23:39.079 --> 02:23:43.719
definitely distribute them to the audience as
well. But Joe, your final thoughts

1813
02:23:43.799 --> 02:23:50.639
on this JFK Mits episode, Well, I thought it was great and I'm

1814
02:23:50.879 --> 02:23:54.000
very happy to be a part of
it and to join you guys. We

1815
02:23:54.200 --> 02:24:01.440
could be We can be found at
The Loan Gunman podcast guests on almost every

1816
02:24:03.280 --> 02:24:11.559
podcast platform. We do live shows
every week. Now we have taken our

1817
02:24:11.319 --> 02:24:18.760
show live. We've been interacting with
a lot of the listeners and we're very

1818
02:24:18.799 --> 02:24:26.079
excited. We have some fun plans
and fun research plan for twenty twenty four.

1819
02:24:28.159 --> 02:24:33.200
I am talking. I won't give
it away with the namesake of a

1820
02:24:33.399 --> 02:24:48.719
very important person related to Marina,
her lawyer's son, and that kind of

1821
02:24:48.959 --> 02:24:52.479
ties back to the whole Martin thing. But we have a lot of interesting

1822
02:24:52.600 --> 02:24:58.200
things we're looking to do. We're
trying to move things forward. We're not

1823
02:24:58.799 --> 02:25:01.680
tied to any theory. We are
open minded, we are open to new

1824
02:25:01.799 --> 02:25:07.719
facts and in the end, we're
researchers and not storytellers. We may not

1825
02:25:07.840 --> 02:25:13.159
be perfect, god knows I'm not, but I appreciate you guys having me

1826
02:25:13.280 --> 02:25:18.559
on Carmine. It's been a pleasure
and I have a lot more myths to

1827
02:25:20.920 --> 02:25:26.879
debunk for future episodes. Well definitely
can't wait to hear those. And also

1828
02:25:26.079 --> 02:25:31.639
quick shout out to Rob Clark and
Doug Campbell quick hits. Also as a

1829
02:25:31.680 --> 02:25:35.040
podcast, I think it's available on
the same stream that same streams out there

1830
02:25:35.159 --> 02:25:39.719
that The Lone Gunman is and you
guys also have a YouTube channel you do,

1831
02:25:39.879 --> 02:25:43.319
I think live youtubes every so often, but they'll be links to all

1832
02:25:43.399 --> 02:25:50.319
that in the show description Carmine,
outside of your books and of course tpaak

1833
02:25:50.559 --> 02:25:52.879
dot com. What are your final
thoughts for tonight. I know we didn't

1834
02:25:52.879 --> 02:25:56.959
get to everything, but I think
we did a pretty good job demolishing at

1835
02:25:58.040 --> 02:26:03.319
least one subset of myths that has
been recently introduced into the stream, so

1836
02:26:03.479 --> 02:26:07.120
to speak, and a lot more
work to do. We're gonna have to

1837
02:26:07.200 --> 02:26:11.639
do many more of these episodes.
My friend. I hope so, And

1838
02:26:11.799 --> 02:26:16.440
yeah, no, I appreciate everything
that Joe said and introduced us to,

1839
02:26:16.520 --> 02:26:22.440
and I'm looking forward to future episodes
and of course Mike and if people want

1840
02:26:22.479 --> 02:26:24.959
to check me out, Chuck us
at it before. But it's teapot dot

1841
02:26:26.040 --> 02:26:30.879
com, tp aak dot com and
I've finally edited a donate button after twenty

1842
02:26:30.920 --> 02:26:37.719
people told me over ten years.
So if you'd like to feel free,

1843
02:26:37.760 --> 02:26:41.200
I'm not gonna promote that too much. I mean, I am not one

1844
02:26:41.239 --> 02:26:48.840
of the aforementioned two members of that
overly promoting show. No, but look

1845
02:26:48.600 --> 02:26:50.719
that you referred to. But every
once in a while, you know,

1846
02:26:50.799 --> 02:26:54.520
I might say something, but it
does help. There are costs that I'm

1847
02:26:54.559 --> 02:26:58.959
sure Joe and Chuck both know that
are associated with running everything. So every

1848
02:26:58.120 --> 02:27:01.959
every donation help, whether it's big
or small, even if people just want

1849
02:27:03.000 --> 02:27:05.520
to listen. I've, you know, received a lot of support over the

1850
02:27:05.600 --> 02:27:09.399
years, and I appreciate people coming
out and sending messages, you know,

1851
02:27:09.559 --> 02:27:11.040
and you know, I know Chuck
does too, and so does Joe and

1852
02:27:11.159 --> 02:27:16.799
Rob. But yeah, I hope
we did a we did a good service

1853
02:27:16.879 --> 02:27:20.319
to the people tonight. I hope
the audience enjoyed it, and I think

1854
02:27:20.319 --> 02:27:26.479
we knocked it down rather effectively.
No a this set anyway, this subset

1855
02:27:26.719 --> 02:27:30.559
of myths, so to speak.
But I mean there's a lot more work

1856
02:27:30.600 --> 02:27:33.079
to do, like I said,
and yeah, absolutely, Look you can

1857
02:27:33.200 --> 02:27:37.000
support the loan Gunman, teapok dot
com, uh, the o'celli effect we

1858
02:27:37.479 --> 02:27:41.440
have. Some of us have donate
buttons, some of us have other ways.

1859
02:27:41.520 --> 02:27:45.079
But you know what, even if
you just share the information, you

1860
02:27:45.200 --> 02:27:48.040
put it out on social media,
you tell friends. Uh, all of

1861
02:27:48.120 --> 02:27:54.879
these things are important and it expands
our efforts to continue to explore not only

1862
02:27:54.000 --> 02:27:56.360
this topic. But you know,
there's been a lot of focus on it,

1863
02:27:56.520 --> 02:28:01.840
and I've I've recently refocused on the
jfk assassination. Some people might not

1864
02:28:01.920 --> 02:28:05.879
be pleased with that, but this
is the way I'm going. I'm really

1865
02:28:05.920 --> 02:28:09.479
sick and tired of the general American
politics and I'm still gonna cover it,

1866
02:28:11.000 --> 02:28:13.840
but not as much because I'd rather
get at something that, even though it's

1867
02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:18.840
messy and contentious, you know,
seems I don't know, it just seems

1868
02:28:18.920 --> 02:28:22.399
like this is where I need to
be focusing at the moment. So that's

1869
02:28:22.440 --> 02:28:26.719
what I'm doing. That's what Carmine
does. That's what Joe and Rob do,

1870
02:28:26.040 --> 02:28:31.239
and of course again shout out to
Doug Doug Campbell, the Dallas Action,

1871
02:28:31.600 --> 02:28:35.959
the Quick Hits, and The Loan
Gunman. Those are podcasts I would

1872
02:28:35.959 --> 02:28:41.319
say, you go look at Loan
Gunman, Loan gun Man. Yeah podcast,

1873
02:28:41.399 --> 02:28:45.200
go ahead and check out. I
have to have fun with this,

1874
02:28:45.360 --> 02:28:48.360
guys, I really do. But
I appreciate all you guys for tap the

1875
02:28:48.520 --> 02:28:54.319
top loan past out there. Sure
why not? You've just been right,

1876
02:28:54.840 --> 02:28:58.000
you know. And we continue to
shout out to those that need to be

1877
02:28:58.040 --> 02:29:03.920
shouted out too, and appreciate your
support. Absolutely. Jeff been righted and

1878
02:29:05.040 --> 02:29:09.399
that too, so uh for Mike
Swanson who was with us only in the

1879
02:29:09.440 --> 02:29:13.079
first hour tonight, Carlin Savastano and
Joe Borelli Joe Scooter Brelli, which I

1880
02:29:13.120 --> 02:29:16.479
won't tell you why we're calling him
Scooter, but there's a good reason for

1881
02:29:16.600 --> 02:29:20.879
it anyway. Yeah, no matter
who you are,