You is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot com and listeners like you. Yeah
now in our media chat o'lly February fifteen, twenty twenty four Allegedly, according
to that thing we call a calendar, this is the o'celly effect, which
coincidentally went live for the first time on a broadcast platform of any sort exactly
ten years ago on February fifteenth, twenty fourteen. Okay, so here we
go. That's when it went live. There were podcasts before that in the
previous year and all that good stuff. But hey, if you're signed up
at Ocelli dot com and you're receiving the archive emails as we go, then
you already know this because you got the earliest Ocelli effects that were recorded and
never aired live anywhere in that set. But look, I'm not here to
talk about that, not all. We're here to continue on with not just
the tradition of the Ocelli effect, but how about this. At twenty fourteen,
I met this guy named Carmine Savastano. How did we meet each other?
Effectively? I believe it had something to do with these groups on Facebook.
I know Facebook, But anyway, Yeah, twenty fourteen is calling you
and asking you about useless things. Anyway, twenty fourteen, it was Facebook,
all right, and there was these groups on Facebook like JFK Hucksters myth
Makers. Actually there wasn't myth makers. It was like Huckster's sham artists,
I forget, but basically a whole bunch of stuff where it was like people
that are fake and bs in the JFK assassination realm of alleged research of information
streams, and there were people on Facebook and groups complaining about it, in
addition to the JFK Venor group, which you know was run by a guy
who was really actually pretty curious. But I don't want to talk about Facebook
groups either way. This suggestion was made that I should talk to this guy,
Carmine Savastano, and he had been working on a book, and I
wasn't sure if the book was published at that point or anything. Anyhow,
I decided to talk to Carmine because his book was about three assassinations tepoc tpaak
dot com. You go there. That stands for two Princes and a King,
which happens to be the title of that book, and it was a
concise review of three assassinations from the nineteen sixties, the two princes being the
Kennedy Brothers JFK RFK and King being doctor Martin Luther King Jr. All of
them assassinated in the nineteen sixties, as you well know. So I'm rehashing
stuff. Why Carmine wanted to talk about his book, of course, and
we did, and we formed a friendship at that point in time, and
one of the bases for that friendship was him and I both complaining about people
spreading ridiculous nonsense and alleging that it was information that wasvaluable in the case yup
our complaint over what this was. And I told him then, I really
want to do shows about the myths. And we didn't use the word myths
at first. Actually we had to debate a bit about what to call it,
but it was like fake crap in the JFK community is what we were
thinking of, little more blunt, less refined to a title. But either
way, I said, Carmen, you got to do this with me.
And he has sixteen episodes all together over the years. The last one was
actually some years ago, in twenty twenty, but we started in twenty fifteen
with episode one. Episode three, markedly one of the episodes we dedicated to
Judith Barry Baker. But it's not all about Judy. It's all about getting
that all of the misinformation, disinformation, nonsense, poorly reviewed, researched nonsense
that's out there regarding the JFK case and JFK Myths was born one of the
most valuable series that we've done here on the O'Kelly effect. And how do
I know that because I keep getting told it. Didn't know it would be
as big or as many episodes as it was. I thought we might do
five to ten and be done, but people have been asking, So here
we go again in the year twenty twenty four, going further with the JFK
Myths series and with me tonight is Mike Swanson, the guy behind Wallstreet Window
dot com be in the No Go to Wall Street Window. I don't just
tell you that I recommend his writings his books because he's a sponsor here.
Nope, I recommended them before he was a sponsor, but he is a
sponsor of theo'cell dot com network. Thing is I recommend his writing highly because
he takes very complex things in books like the War State and why the Vietnam
War, which is the first in a series of planned volumes on that conflict.
Why the Vietnam War or the War State, both of them authored by
Mike Swanson. And you'll find that Mike actually authored a whole bunch of other
books and partially authored other things on Amazon, some of them about finance,
one book about the history of Danville, Virginia, et cetera, et cetera.
But I'll be frank with you, I'm not a money guy. I
didn't read his money books. I did read some other stuff and even has
one out there which his dad wrote that he wrote it forward to. I
think it's still available in an ebook form about the Roman Empire. But anyway,
Mike definitely a student of history and a student of the JFK case.
Glad to have him along for JFK Myths seventeen, but also The War State.
And that's that read book. By the way, you see in the
sidebard to Shelley dot Com with ikegiving his farewell address about the military industrial complex,
et cetera. And in case you didn't know, and if you listen
to my show, you know, and also welcome to Planet Earth. You
know you're listening to this if you didn't accidentally find it. You know,
Mike Swanson is Mike, how you doing tonight that we don't know I'm doing.
It's great to talk for you in Carmin and our other special guest right
who I'm going to get to third in the order. We have Carmin Sabastano,
who I just gave another intro to. But he is the author of
Two Princes and a King, as I said previously, and also Human time
Bomb, right, the books that will be a controversy, as they say,
on the other side of the island when we discuss it on the other
side of the pond. Excuse me, not island on that island on the
other side of the pond over there in England. But yeah, Human time
Bomb, right, there's that about the human condition and violence in it and
all that. We'll get there eventually. But Two Princes and a King happily
sits on my bookshelf, and I did request that Carmine sign it for me.
I don't request too many signed books, but you know, my friends,
I'd like to have a sign book from its personalized, never going to
trade it away or give it away, although sometimes they are stolen and actually
they get stolen a conferences and I'm gonna make a few other inside jokes,
but CARMI good to have you back on the show. Glad to continue the
midst the how you doing tonight? Teapoktpaak dot com your website? How are
you, sir? I'm okay. It's good to be back. Definitely,
as we were just discussing before, I fire a little bit. It's almost
been a decade, almost seventeen episodes of this. They just the hits just
keep coming. Well, what's funny? Is I mean? And we've actually
created other historical podcasts, you know, where we examined other assassinations and things
built off of the myths episodes because we had to go into like Benzi or
Budo and a few other assassinations, right yeah, and you know what did
we do. We did a whole thing on South America, I mean went
through Budo, Truilo. We discussed Patrucia, Mumba and the Congo. You
know that the lovely Cia hands off handing him to Mobutu. They didn't kill
him directly, right, which has always been what they said, So that
is true. They didn't kill him directly, but their station chief in Leopoldville
did happen to pass on the mbutu that Lamumbo was trying to kill him,
which was never proven. Well, there's that. There's that, and and
that whole situation where everybody ends up at a billiard table or something like that.
Was that tr hello where they all like the maybe, yeah, I
think I think that was the one where yeah, like there's weird standoff.
Imagine like a presidential palace in the you know, in the billiard room,
if you will, and all of a sudden, people realize there's a whole
bunch of people planning on killing each other all in the same room. Magically
happened. Nobody you know, positioned people or anything to have that happen.
Can you detect sarcasm? Anyway, A lot of stuff we went into,
even as a matter of fact, the attempted assassination attempts and various twisted webs
of stuff in North Korea. We even went over yeah, yeah, yeah,
but that's part of the way. And there's also an episode if you
can find out, they're called Putna on the Hits, where we actually went
over the over a dozen people that Vladimir Putin either likely or verifiably had murdered
in the course of his tenure as a dictator. Right, no judgments or
anything, just the history if you will. You know, we do call
it sinister history because it is kind of sinister to murder people, but it
is part of history as well, so that subset not being covered tonight.
We're on back onto the myths, but sometimes it causes us to jump off
into other directions, and in the future, by popular demand, we're bringing
back the myths, might have to bring in some sinister history as well.
We'll see what kind of time Carmine can allow us in the near future,
because you know, I can only book people so often, but because of
the rotations, I have ideas. Maybe you could trade off with Larry or
Mike on Thursdays or Wednesdays and we can build upon our previous work as I
re release some of this stuff because it's not available on YouTube like it used
to be. Anyway, our special guest, why is he special cause he's
not usually here for these things or the show. Matter of fact, I
don't think he's been on the show before, and we will refer to him
as in some circles Scooter. Why, well, that might be because I'd
like my other two guests tonight co hosts Tonight and also Joe now is a
co host because that's what you are on the myth show. Guess what he
was at the Lancer conference this year. And there might be a story behind
the Scooter thing. We're not going to tell tonight, but if you're aware,
there might be a reason why we call Joe Brelli Joe Scooter Brelli.
Anyway, he does a lot more than that. He works with Rob Clark,
the Lone Gunman, all that kind of stuff. Joe, how would
you introduce yourself to the audience that maybe has heard about you on this show
a little but hasn't heard you on the show. How would you introduce yourself?
Joe? Well, Hi, good evening everyone. I hope I introduced
myself. I am an avid student of history, and I started working and
reading a about World War Two, and because my grandfather was Norman Dy plus
ten, he was actually going to be one of the first waves, but
my great grandmother died and he left to go home for a few days,
which pushed him back a few days. And it's probably why I'm here talking
to you. And I started making my way up through history and got to
the JFK assassination and was like, what is going on here? Listened,
read for years, and started doing my own primary research, your own primary
research, which eventually led you to starting to work with Rob Clark. I
think you were just kind of a fan of the Lone Gunman podcast. Maybe
you had heard of mine at some point previous to this year at Lancer.
But you and I met at Lancer, and you did a solid presentation there
with Rob, a recorded one, and then you were taking questions afterwards about
the many Martins, if you will, in the JFK case, which is,
you know, a fascinating tidbit, not necessarily going to solve the case
for us, but amazing how many people there are named Martin that are tied
to the case in one way or another, whether filming it, possibly participating
in it, and everything else. You guys did an entertaining video presentation there,
and you know, go ahead and promote what it is you want to
promote here in case I forget later. Great, Well, thank you,
Chuck, I appreciate that. And yes, it was about the anomaly of
all these people named Martin showing up from the early sixties to Watergate and We've
actually started out as a joke, Hey we found another Martin, and it
actually evolved into a very specific deep dive on a couple of interesting Martins.
May maybe we'll get into a couple of them today. One has to do
with one of the myths of a Martin that took a very interesting video.
And yeah, we found a lot of tidbits and really interesting things. I
had in our conversation with mister Larry Hancock on Sunday morning of the conference was
probably my highlight about some of the documents I found. I believe Carmine is
familiar with some of the ones I'm talking about with James Herbert Martin and Wanda
Martin. And you know, we went further on John T. Martin,
which we'll get into later, and it really evolved into a more focused investigation
on a couple Martins. And that's what really turned heads, not really the
coincidence of the name. So that's how I would come to someone up right,
no ay, fair enough and always good to have any kind of conversation
with. Larry Hancock, regular co host here at ocelly dot com the ocell
Effect, and now he's on Wednesdays every other Wednesday, we hear from what
some people call him Professor Hancock, but Larry Hancock, the great author of
many, many books, and I'm not going to sit here and list them
because we only got so much time tonight, but you guys can definitely find
him in the archive at Ocelli dot com. And as per usual, we'll
give you a link to the Lone Gunman since we mentioned him, and you
know they're going to also get mentioned a little later, and the fact that
Joe was at Lancer is going to play a part in some of what we're
going to discuss tonight, But hang around and you'll find out about it.
So, with no further ado and no more of me run in my mouth,
Carmine, where should we begin, Miss seventeen? For God's sake,
where are we beginning here? Well, just for those who didn't hear in
the last episode, are what we'll be discussing for a portion of the show,
what I primarily have been doing research into and to some of the figures
that acclaimed it as a series called Who Killed JFK? By Rob Reiner.
Oh boy, okay, Well, first off, I'm gonna get this out
of a way right away, meathead, does not necessarily understand the assassination.
Okay, I'm just that's my words. Nobody else said it blame me,
and I'm not just picking on him for a role he played. I mean,
look, you can take a look at South Park's wonderful parody of him.
Maybe I'll steal a clip here there and stick it in during the show
just for fun. But yeah, kind of a messy thing and unfortunately got
a lot of play and was a huge part of the what conference believe it
or not this year is this Ryan presentation and that drives me crazy because a
lot of it just oh man, Well, Carmine, go ahead, I
mean, what can I al turn it over to you? Man? Okay.
So, Reiner begins this series during the period when Jack Ruby would fatally
attack Lee Harvey Oswald. He recounts his feelings and ideas when he observed the
event in television during his youth, and then he discusses Oswald's statement of being
a patsy and while certainly Jack Ruby had mob connections, one officials denied,
and we've prior offered the FBI informat documents on the show, and I do
believe in the Lone Gunmen as well that show he was an FBI former,
right, and his first visitor in Joe following Oswald's death was one of the
Campezee Brothers local Dellas mobsters that we're familiar with Ruby, but without these specifics
in the show, anything about Ruby's criminal past, it just veers from there
into broadcasts from the day of the assassination and Rhyner's personal experience following the assassination.
The narrator Solidad O'Brien states that Rob Reiner is a great storyteller, and
I hardily agree. Yeah, look, maybe maybe, Look, let's let's
reserve judgment and be objective. Perhaps he is a good storyteller. Oh no,
I think he's a good storyteller, you know, but I agree.
On the other hand, best didn't go it down. Now I'm not reading
food. I'm Rob Ryinan and you've just been reined. Come onye boys,
let's make our escape. There you go, okay, so, Reiner states.
He discussed the Kennedy assassination with political satirist Mort Sahl, who was skeptical
of the government's findings. Reiner notes that he read Mark Laine's book Rush to
Judgment, and that in his mind it took a part the Warrant Commission.
However, Mark A. Laine's book and later film contains some inaccuracies and outright
myths which I've already been reviewed on the Acheli effect, and I've touched upon
different versions of that I do believe on the Goodman Podcast as well the Lone
Gunman. Look, it's been covered on quick Hits and to be generous about
this, and I think we should be when it comes to Mark Lane,
because Mark Lane, quite honestly did a lot more good for the case than
bad in my opinion. On balance, he's definitely a positive figure. I
think he's a positive figure in that he publicized the case more right so that
more of the public had access. Well, not only fortunately, what he
used to publicize the case is highly questionable sometimes well sometimes, But on the
other hand, you're talking about the nineteen sixties, you're not talking about the
hs Y. No, No, he didn't have access. I'm not saying
that it's his fault because he should have had more evidence. I'm saying that
he just like when he pretended to be I mentioned I think I might mention
this later when I'm going over him being used one of his claims being used
as a reference. He did impersonate officials to get witness testimony, okay,
time true. He did do some dishonest things. True. And you know,
some of the representations that he made regarding say, you know, trying
to represent Oswald and things like that in his interests not necessary. But you
know, to me a couple of factors here. First of all, the
amount of information somebody's working with in nineteen sixty four or five, which is
when he starts making statements, and he's making presentations into the seventies again,
before HSCA, before Oliver Stones movie, before the ARRB, before a lot
of us, had a lot of access to a lot of things. Coupled
with the fact that he was also what primarily a lawyer and a politician,
means that I think it's inevitable that, you know, there's going to be
some sketchy stuff happening, and that's a guarantee with Lane. So I kind
of I don't think that takes away from what he did prove that that was
deficient about the commission. I just think that has to be put on balance.
Sure, sure, but I mean, you know, the things that
he did that set back you know, and made people look bad. But
again, he hasn't made witnesses not want to talk to other people. I
mean, how many other interviewers were then denied well by those witnesses. Right,
well, but see if that goes back to witness contamination, which believe
it or not. Even if you can directly point to Lane doing damage there,
I can point to a lot of other people doing a lot worse damage
than Lane. Oh yeah, yeah. Regarding that, I'm just saying his
book isn't some sort of the way that Minor frames. It is the way
that I've heard a frame before. It's not some sort of bible. No
one JFK book has all the answers. In fact, all of them put
together don't have all the answers. Yeah, well that's just so yeah,
but there you go. And we run into this a lot with people with
David Lifton's book as well. Best evidence where best evidence. That's it,
that's the end all be all. And it's like, look, first of
all, nineteen eighty when that was published the first time, I think,
and you know, David Lifton is part of the first generation of researchers.
Indeed, even though he didn't publish it a way later and again, I'm
actually going to give the Reiner some credit. And I believe Lane mentioned it
too. That's probably where he got the cats what I'm about to say next,
But I will give some credit. They had at least a couple of
good ideas in the thing, so I try to at least give, you
know, be even handed with it. When they get something right, I
try to mention it. But for the most part, fair enough. So
let's tear into this and go to the facts, please, Carmons. Okay,
So, the series mentions the Katzenbach Memo, a document written by Nicholas
Katzenbach, who serves as the Kennedy administration's deputy Attorney General and later the Johnson
administration's attorney General. In the memo, the Katzenbach clearly states that the public
must be convinced that Oswald is a lone gunman, and while it is not
a smoking gun for an assassination conspiracy, it does prove the early formation of
an official cover up. Unlike most of the material Reiner has offered thus far,
only this memo, a verifiable document, has, in my view,
on the actual value the concealment and destruction of evidence is certainly underway. This
point in the timelining grows over time, as we have learned in more recent
days, the Katz and Bacha memo for their offers, the President's Commission was
tasked by its creators with delivery Noswald to the public as the loan guilty party.
Further, Allen Dulles being placed upon the Commission was indeed a means for
some of the agencies, such as James Angleton, to influence and eventually take
the investigation from those first personnel order to investigate. Now that youwithstanding, that
is basically the only thing in the early episodes that I think has any value.
So then he shifts gears and begins to discuss the military industrial complex and
the devisive nature of military leadership that opposed Kennedy's policies. Some claim that military
leaders are responsible for the assassination or their determination to enter a war with Cuba
serves as reasoning for such ideas. However, a military leader, in my
view, had much to lose and conspiring against JFK. And Further, it
was during this period of the Cold War in which military had nearly ceased his
ceaselessly setbacks due to poor planning and the lack of significant forethought. While it's
possible, because anything is possible, military leaders conspired, it was some of
the same leadership and their proteges that delivered US enormous military failures in Korea,
Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Certainly, a war or military
action is more complicated to plan than the assassination of a single leader, but
some clarity about those purported who have conspired is useful, and some verifiable evidence
would be as well. Reiner offers neither. Reiner then met with author Dick
Russell and sources his book The Man Who Knew Too Much, which supports the
claims of Richard case Neguel. Miguel is an often mentioned figure that claimed he
entered a bank and fired into the air prior to the Kennedy assassination because of
his supposed fore knowledge. Negel states that years following the actual events, that
he wanted to be in custody so that conspirators would being able to force him
to participate. Their claims, he states are that he possessed identification matching the
Harvey Oswald's alias, but there is far more to Negul's story. Negel was
indeed a member of army intelligence during the nineteen fifties. By years prior to
his claims, he was the only survivor of a plane crash from which he
bore serious mental and physical scoars. This left him, according to his superiors
and colleagues, less stable. Eventually, Negul's family would abandon him after his
increasing erratic behavior and following a period of unemployment, Negal soon became homeless and
began living in his car. Likely from desperation, he attempted to plan a
crime with other unnamed individuals, one of which shot him in the chest.
These are the events prior of prior months and weeks preceding the bank episode that
so many have placed faith in, and certainly would allow one to question the
veracity of his claims. I was sent the Alpaso police reports from the incident
by researcher Steve Rowe and was able to verify that, instead of the dramatic
episode Negual would report, the event was a failed robbery. The evidence offers
that Miguel entered the bank demanding money, shot into the teller window and not
into the ceiling, then attempted to flee the scene, who was later apprehended
by police trying to escape in his car. Items found in Miguel's vehicle some
claim link him to Oswald and the Central Intelligence Agency, but these ideas,
too, are not supported by evidence. The documents, upon closer review,
do not match the alias of Oswald and the CIA. Names in this possession
were likely former contacts or related to past military intelligence operations, and don't prove
a more recent connection with the agency. Okay, I'd like to pause right
there to give the other panelists a chance to address Richard case Neguel and the
claims, and let me play Devil's advocate for ten seconds here and say that,
look, you know, just because it's not in the police report doesn't
mean it didn't happen. You know, Cops leaving things out of police reports
or misrepresenting things in police reports is something that I do commonly see and well,
depending on well, just hang on and depending on circumstances. I mean,
you could have completely benign explanations for missing mentions of evidence, missing collections
of evidence, representations from the police, etc. Don't worry, Carmine,
You're gonna get back around to it. But I want to give Mike and
Joe both a chance to comment on Richard Case Miguel, the claims in general,
and what it is we know about him and his circumstance because he's also
tied to the Garrison investigation and a few other things that people have talked about
over the years. So, Mike, you have any anything to offer regarding
Richard Case Miguel. What you think of the claims, the representations by you
know, either Dick Russell or the people have kind of you know, grabbed
onto him as somebody. I mean, he's even mentioned quite prominently in one
of the books I highly recommend, which is you know, JFK and The
Unspeakable and uh well, you know right there there's quite a bit of mention
by doctor Douglas regarding the veracity of his claims and things like that. Again,
you know, doctor Douglas, nobody's perfect. But you know, what
can I say? I have mixed feelings about Case Miguel and the reliability of
the story, the claims, et cetera. What do you think, Mike?
Do you have any views on this? Mike? Did I put you
to sleep? Mike? Maybe he's talking to his mute button. Okay,
well, yeah, I just had the mute button on good Yeah, so
he figures prominently he's the basis of a book written by Dick Russell called The
Man Who Knew Too Much Right, which was it must have come out in
the late nineteen nineties early two thousands, and this book has been one of
the main sources of the Rob Reiner a podcast series, and he's in Russell
himself as a main consultant on the series, and a lot of his ideas
appeared to have been either injected into the series or the basis of the series,
which we may get to inte later. For well, I'll talk about
that after we talk about Nagel, because he names someone that could be a
masterminded assassination in his book, which is also and he fingers in Reiner fingers
in the podcast. But as far as Nagel goes, yeah, the book.
When I went through my first phase of being interested in the Kennedy assassination,
it was right before it was a year or two or three before the
Oliver Stone movie came out and all these and there's a wave of Kennedy assassination
books that were big sellers, and this lasted I don't know, five six,
seven years, and the Russell book was one of the last books in
this wave that had a giant splash and also ended up being one of the
last books I read during that phase back then of my first interest in this
and he it's it's he's a great writer. It's it's very well written.
Uh, and it's a good it It's it's a he makes Nagel a good
story, an interesting character because he talks about how he you know, it's
gotten information from him, but he's Nagel's holding back. But the big story
with Nagel, Uh that get gets your interest is that before the assassination,
Uh, he goes into a bank and uh takes the gun out. Yeah,
CARMI just covered all that, you know, basically, and yeah,
I just want to add here that the first publication of The Man Who Knew
Too Much was in nineteen ninety three, and then a very very much changed
and updated version was released ten years later in two thousand and three. I'm
not sure how many times it's been reprinted so on and so forth. But
Yeah, indeed, Russell's an excellent writer in general objectively, But what Carman
did is kind of debunked that story of him, you know, the story
of this guy goes to the bank and he shoots himself, shoots the gun
because he wants to get arrested so he can avoid being implicated in the assassination
or framed or it's caught up in it. Karma pretty well has debunked that
through the documents to make it look like it probably had to improve that.
It probably had nothing to do with assassination at all. You know, at
least the story was not as different from not as presented, you know,
because has presented in the book, because of the the whole contradiction there about
you know, this sort of like, uh, it's just the innocent kind
of move here to get himself arrested on purpose and not really try to do
anything criminal. Uh. He didn't even attempt to flee the scene was the
original, you know, the the concept. Yeah, but the answer to
answer your question myself about what I think a Nagel Uh, you know,
when I read the book, I mean it was He's very interesting. His
interesting story is a great you know, the book influenced me honestly. Uh.
When I initially read it, Uh, it put me one direction of
thinking, I don't really have as much anymore, but I don't really put
much cretence or importance anymore in the Nagel story. Myself, I don't I
don't really see it helping me, you know, figure out who was behind
the assassination or larger questions. It's just a to me, a minor story.
And there's lots and lots of these stories that cropped up over the years,
and you know, they don't seem to really really go anywhere in the
end. Well, and it goes a little deeper too, because again this
is during my early years of interest as well, when this book was hot
and it first dropped because I got in at about eighty eight, as I've
said, you know, around the twenty fifth anniversary, and didn't get serious
until probably shortly after this. So I guarantee this book had influence on me
because it was one of those you know, brand new, have to go
to the bookstore and go get it books that I had heard about, you
know, pre internet and all that. So it was influential, and one
could say that it continues to be. And Russell again was another presenter at
Lancer this year as well as I think he presented it WET and other conferences.
I think he was at three conferences this year alone and again a solid
writer for entertainment value now as historical precedent. Another question, Joe, do
you have any views on the Man who Knew Too Much? Yeah, I
am kind of on the same page as you and Mike and Carmine. I
have a lot of skepticism towards the story, especially the comment of or the
story of the cop asking him you didn't really mean to rob that bank,
and Nagel allegedly says, you're a pretty smart cop, aren't you. That
just doesn't sit well with me. Well, and I have a lot of
skepticism towards Miguel and the story, but I agree, I think stories are
going to play a main theme in this episode, and it is a really
good story, interesting story. It's semi relevant, and that's kind of my
take on it. No fair enough, and look, I mean there's a
lot more to it. The whole idea that he was supposedly following Oswald around
at some point people had claimed that he was set up, he was going
to have to kill Oswald to either prevent or participate in the assassination. A
whole lot of stuff there that's alleged. And again, he's also a guy
that I believe is you know, the story is that he met with Garrison,
somebody threw a grenade at him. He presents Garrison with the grenade and
says, yeah, not going to testify for you, Pale. You know,
I'm condensing stories here as quickly as I can because I don't want to
stay on it too much for good. Yeah, well, I just wanted
to answer your question from earlier before I moved on with the gal more information
about him. But so the reason why is it's not just the police report.
It's the police report and multiple witness statements that I'll corroborate each other at
michal So either they did a conspiracy to frame him up and change everything that
happened, or it didn't happen the way the gal said. What's more likely
standable? But again, Devil's advocate, right, who collected the witness statements.
Well, and that's fine, but how much I'm just saying it becomes
a conspiracy to just try to stop in the gel And he gives no reason,
as I'm about to go into to anybody why he did it at the
time. It's only years later he starts to contrive these ideas. Yeah,
I know, and then there's there's nothing at the time that proves anything about
what he says. There is no contemporary evidence or statement he ever made,
not even in the court of law when he had the opportunity, no right,
and even the whole you know game that went on regarding foot lockers and
trying to find supposed yeah exactly, Yeah, where he was lining to the
police and sending them a wild goose. I mean, he's obviously not a
credible source because he changes his story so much and invents so much. He's
a messy source. And ultimately I conclude personally that it is probably likely as
a result of head trauma, you know, really, yeah, that some
of this goes on. But go ahead, Yeah, I was just gonna
say in the past, and I still do feel bad for Negual, and
Russell masterfully writes him as a dramatic character to feel bad for and to believe.
But ultimately Neguel has no sources, has no real proof, and has
had to alter his history to make it fit into the book. So moving
forward, go ahead, Yeah, Well, and I bring him up because
he's actually one of the sources for the later assassins, and because Russell just
keeps throwing Negul into this like he mattered to the first of all, he's
such a minor figure, he's better Okay anyway, so here I'll continue and
finish him and then you know, okay, so yeah, get back to
the notes, Okay. So I also might consider I would add that Negle
attempted suicide multiple times following his arrest and sat in jail for months without giving
any explanation for his actions. His arrest a cart September twentieth, nineteen sixty
three, and preceded Oswald's employment at the Texas school Book Depository on October fifteenth
by nearly a month, and there is no verifiable link between the two men
that has been proven. It was not until years later when a gual presented
his ideas that a JFK connection was seemingly created. Reiner states teaming with journalist
Dick Russell, and they would travel to interview several multiple people connected to the
case. They met with persons varying from Buel Fraser, noted for his testimony
changes over time to the holy unreliable William Robert Tosh Plumley, who claimed to
be a CIA asset that flew a team of men into stop the Kennedy assassination
among I'm sorry as soon as you mentioned Tosh Plumley, I just have no
choice but to got to make an exasperated expression because it's just Tosh Plumley is
a source for many, many things that turn into JFK Mitz later, but
go ahead. Among those included in the myth are Watergate burglar and former CIA
officer I Howard Hunt and mafia hitman Johnny ROSSELLI. Reiner followed Hello, these
seriously flawed claims with the statement quote, I want the truth. It seemingly
every turn no evidence is offered to prove what is claimed. Now what's interesting
to me too, is that they're just thrown in. These are just three
extra people in the conspiracy that are unrequired because none of them are named.
Does an assassin of the mastermind. So these three guys plus Plumbly, Okay,
the numbers are just starting to increase to where it gets more and more
unlikely what is being proposed. But anyway, so getting back to it,
utilizing documents and I Chuck have discussed this in the past for those who might
have heard it the show that we discussed this, I'm not actually gonna try
to work on some articles that will nail this down, so there'll be articles
that people can link to to go to, to read, and go to
the documents about some of these guys, because they keep popping up even in
the Rhiner series, as we'll see. So utilizing documents in the Federal Beer
of Investigation and Plumbly Zone statements, we can easily disprove the airplane journey or
board team story, the later named version of related earlier claims. Notably,
Robert Plumley's story was not offered to investigators until the nineteen nineties, when film
producer Bob Vernon presented it while set upon developing a related book or film.
If we look when at official documents from decades earlier, Plumbley was arrested several
times and confessed to officials quote that he has admitted to making up names of
persons allegedly contacted by him. Additionally, the CIA internally reviewed its files after
the Vernon claims and found no documents related to employing Plumblee during the nineteen sixties.
Plumblee continues, I'm sorry, go ahead, oh no, right later
on he's later on, yep, yeah, but go ahead, oh yeah,
no, no, yeah, And that's what I think Plumbley draws upon
is that he later had connection with the CIA. Yeah, to then say
that, well, of course, you know, I was secretly anyway.
So Plumbley continues to be jailed for various crimes in the period before the assassination,
which would likely render him too notable for use by any thinking conspirator.
A Bureau interview of Plumbly conducted in nineteen seventy six contains questions about his past
associations with the aforementioned hit man, Johnny Roselli, and Plumbly responds to them
he quote did not see Roselli from nineteen sixty three to nineteen sixty eight.
Thus, in his own words, and without fore knowledge of his future claims,
Rubert Plumley disproves the very essence of his story, and the rest of
his claims dissolve lacking merit. My favorite Tosh Plumbley claim is having witnessed the
assassination from the other side of the street, by the way, which is
you know, yeah, trying to steal from Sherriff Feaster. Yeah wow,
really really strange claim, and Vernon wound up collecting it, and of course
our friend Wim Dankbar, our friend sarcastically you know, later on gathers him
into I don't know, one, two, three videos where he's you know,
doing the whole here's Tosh plumbley uh connecting. Let me see, let
me think about this for a second. Let's see James Files. He's connected
to that story another myth. Yeah, and and of course then there's the
other guy who claims to be one of the tramps. Right, Oh,
I know who you're talking about. Yeah, Chauncey Phillips Holt Holts Holts Holts.
Right. So he's in the Chauncey Holt story, he's in the James
Files story. He's mix. Yeah, he just winds up cross pollinating throughout
all that mess. He's in Judy's too, I believe in some versions.
I don't know, maybe he's in judy story. Well it's hard to keep
track with Judy, but you know, bigger of course anyhow, But please
continue, Okay. So nevertheless, just for the information of the listener,
I want to offer further evidence and information about plumbly supposed passengers, just so
we can nail that down. It just so happens, I was able to
locate both effort Howard Hunt and Felipe O Saco aka John and Rosselli on the
day in question, and we discussed it here on the Ocelli Effect. Prior
Rosselli, unknown to Tash Plumley and others who attempted to utilize him for their
stories following his death in varying myths, were unaware that the FBI had been
trailing Rosselli for months with informants and physical surveillance. This included the period in
which President Kennedy was assassinated. The Bureau had multiple teams following Rossali's movements and
used informants to monitors possible future plans while also staking out his apartment in Los
Angeles. Officials noted that November eighteenth, nineteen sixty three, Rosselli was observed
with Maurice Friedman and two female campaigns leaving a hotel in Arizona and took a
flight to later register at the Desert In Motel, where Rosselli was a member
of its country club in Las Vegas. Simultaneously, the FBI observed Rosili's apartment
during that period in Los Angeles and noted there were no signs of activity for
days after President Kennedy's assassination. The only records of any plane ride taken by
Rosselli in that period were his relocation to different hotels, the last one in
Las Vegas, not Dallas. When Roselli himself was called before a congressional leaders
regarding his location November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, he responded, quote,
let me put it to you this way, the morning the president was
assassinated, I was asleep in bed at the Desert End hotel. Based upon
FBI surveillance, informant tips, and even the gangster himself, Johnny Roselli was
not in Dallas but Las Vegas when the events and Deally Plazas transpired, right,
kind of eliminating him as a shooter. So before we go to a
break, which I'm going to do at about ten after here, I want
to get both Mike and Joe's view. I'll start with Joe this time,
if we don't, if he doesn't mind, you know anything you want to
add here regarding Tosh Plumley or the cross pollination or that part of it,
which is again featured in Rob Reiner's set of JFK podcasts. Joe, Yes,
it's not my area of expertise, I really can't shed any more context
than Carmine just did on it. No fair enough. But I mean,
if you have the FBI having this guy under surveillance because he was an organized
crime figure and was definitely a person of interest to the FBI at the time,
Yeah, I think Johnny Rosselli was nowhere near Dealey Plaza. Kind of
hard to put a gun in his hand in Dally Plaza, just saying,
I mean, look, you could add in the the other mafia stuff if
you wanted to. And people have misrepresented him as everything from the Godfather of
Los Angeles. Uh, I can't believe I just uttered that phrase, but
they've tried to say that to what was he the Hollywood don was another one?
Right? Uh? Yeah, he's just the biggest, the biggest mobster
at certain times out there, that's all. Yeah, it wasn't. He
has had no official ranking in the mob beyond being one of Ginkana's men.
Right. And here's what the there's probably one hundred let's call them, Italian
businessman that you can find directly connected to Hollywood, more involved than Hollywood exerting
influence, extortion, etc. In Hollywood during this entire time period. Let's
go nineteen fifty three to nineteen seventy three, and Johnny Roselli's one of them,
but not even one of the most prominent ones, or the most active
ones, or the most profitable ones that we know of for certain. And
I'm telling you it's not hard to make up a list of about one hundred
guys if you want. But anyway, Joe, I appreciate it. Look,
if you don't know, you don't know, and that's fine, but
go ahead and check it out. I'm sure you'll find that Carmen's documentation is
very good on this. And I think that if the FBI didn't know where
he was on the twenty second, that would be one thing. But seems
to me like he might be telling the truth when he said he was asleep
in bed at the Desert inn. Mike, do you have any views are
on sure Roselli or or or the cross pollination of Josh Plumley or any of
this. The Pumby story, to me, it's just a useless story.
I mean, it's just a useless story. Roselli is a more important character.
You know, he was a real really you know, we know a
lot of real things about Johnny Roselli. And he really was hooked up with
the mob. He really was a go between of the Mob and the Central
Intelligence Agency. He had dealings, you know, with William Harvey. But
that doesn't mean he was involved in the assassination of President Canny, right,
not JFK. The assassination at once on Fidel Castro is yet another story though,
and he was plotting or contacted two get involved in that. But that
plot, the mafia plot against Castro, didn't go anywhere. But all that
said, you know, Roselli had a bad ending to his own life.
He ended up in a drum in the in the ocean soon before well actually
after he testified to the Church Committee. So you know, well, I
don't know why he ended up in that drum, but he did. Yeah.
Well look, there's a lot of ways you can end up in a
drum when you're involved in certain businesses. And the thing is, you know,
a lot of people make the claim that well before he could testify he
ended up in the drum. He actually testified to the Church committee. We
have that. Yeah, he testified. I mean, was he killed because
of that? I don't know. He could have been killed because of some
other reason. Because a lot of monsters get killed. So look, I
mean they either get killed or they go to jail. Listen, that's just
the way it ends in a lot of cases. I mean, that's what
you know the world anyway, Look, Mike, speaking of useless information,
I'm gonna put Carmine on pause for a moment here because you have a previous
engagement you're gonna have to get too shortly. So I want to give you
a chance to mention one of your one of the myths that drives you a
bit crazy. And I love this one because I know we've mentioned it before,
but I don't know if we broke it down really on this show,
and maybe we're not going to do an extreme breakdown here, but I wanted
to give you a chance to mention this one because you and I talked just
before airtime, and this is one of my favorites talk about. You know,
people want to talk about the timing of death and what the cause was,
what the you know, motivation for getting rid of ROSELLI was well one
of the more misleading. Hey, this is the reason why they got rid
of JFK myths out there is one that you're gonna mention here now there'll be
links not only to Carmin's notes, but to this story and others in the
show notes, So check that out and also the chat Atochelli dot com.
Mike, what is the thing that gets you when people say this is why
JFK was killed? Well, so, to me, the craziest claim is
that he was killed over UFOs. And there's two There's two pieces of evidence
that people point to who make this argument. Now I'm going to briefly touch
on both of these two pieces of evidence. The first is a memo that
Kennedy wrote on November twelfth, nineteen sixty three, to the Director of the
Central Intelligence Agency, demanding a classification review of all UFO intelligence files affecting national
security. That's the subject of the memo, It claims or the memo states
that the Kenny administration's making contacts with the Soviet Union for Joint Space and Lunar
Explanation Exploration, So we need to do a classification review of what we know
about the UFOs in order to share the information with the Soviets and let them,
you know, not mistake our cooperation with them as a cover for intelligence
gathering. For defense and space programs, and a book was a pressure release
was put out on November the twenty second, twenty eleven by a doctor William
Lester about a book he was putting out called a Celebration of Freedom. Jf
came the New Frontier. So this book came out in twenty eleven, and
this book cites the memo that I just read. The problem is the memo
isn't real and it's not international archives and reporters contacted the Kennedy JFK Library to
ask them they could find it. They couldn't find it. And since it
can't be found in any historical places, I'm saying it's not real. I
think it's a hoax because it can't be verified to be real. But this
fellow that wrote the book, this doctor William Lester, he also happened to
be a director of the Mutual UFO Network, which is one of these UFO
groups. So anyway, so that's the one piece of evidence. The other
one is some collection of hoax documents called Majestic twelve, which claim I said,
I sent you a link to it, so people want to see it,
they can, But it claims to be documents about UFOs a secret group
inside the government created by Harry Truman to investigate the UFOs, and these are
documents about the group, and supposedly Kennedy may have been killed over this too.
But yeah, I just think it's a bunch of nonsense. Yeah,
I don't doubt that there are some A very small number of these UFOs stories
could be real, you know, in the sense that they're not explained,
But the vast majority of these things are hoaxes. And the UFO community is
just full of hoaxes and frauds among its leadership. Interesting that the claim,
by the way, from that author Lester was that this was released by a
sort of a secret whistleblower and insider, right, a guy who worked for
the CIA in the sixties and seventies, who says he literally pulled it out
of a burnbin so that it wouldn't disappear, not realize. Yeah, I
want to make one remark about that too. You get what's really getting me
at this moment in time is the past six months we have seen these whistle
blowers, so called whistle blowers from the Air Force come out and make these
claims that they know about UFOs, they know about alien bodies. One of
them testified to Congress. Right, these so called whistle blowers, I think
they're frauds. And the reason I think they're frauds is because what I've seen
in my lifetime with whistle blowers that come out with top secret information is they
get persecuted. Daniel Ellsberg was persecuted and he got you know, went up
to court, he won his court cases and you know, didn't go to
jail. But how many o the other whistle blowers had gone to jail?
You know, Julie and Asage wasn't even American citizen, and he wasn't you
know, working for the US government and releasing information, and they haunted him
across the world. He went in an embassy, they got him out of
the embassy. Now he's in jail. So how in the world do these
whistle blowers, reported whistle blowers get away with saying all this stuff without getting
in trouble. I think they're fakes. Well, the funny thing is that
this Majestic twelve thing and the there's not just the one memo, by the
way, there's actually a set of documents that have circulated and you know,
prominently this stuff circulated in the late nineties, but it was out there before
that. In the eighties. This was out there, And if you go
back to a little piece of disinformation out there called the tor Bit document,
there's a whole thing related to now and supposedly lbj's involvement and the FBI being
somehow involved in the assassination directly, and all these things came together into this
concept of the JFK was killed to prevent the revelation of real aliens and the
US government's involvement with it. Now. A fascinating thing that happened recently is
News Nation did some specials on George Norrie's you Know TV show in Vegas,
former host Coast Coast am interesting guy and all that. But they had to
have his JFK episode right after a couple of them on his UFO thing,
and he ties it together with the Majestic twelve stuff, right And people keep
doing this, you know, over and over again. They keep bringing it
back out, no matter how many times you tell them top secret documents don't
look this way. There's no you know, this document, a memo like
this exists in more than one form and more than one place. We can't
find it in any of those spots, So somebody would have to pull it
from all the copies that were available to the president, that were available in
the CIA everywhere else. It would have to be completely scrubbed and put into
a different format. There are others who have tried to defend this, saying
that well, they just reformatted it and have recreated it from a real document,
and it's like, where does the contortion stop regarding you don't actually have
evidence for this. I just want to jump in if I could real quick.
Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to jump in and say, yeah,
as you were saying, we actually did a show that's probably in Chuck's
archives where we showed people how to tell a real document from a fake one.
And it is, you know, as Mike said, the practice of
some people to create fake documents. But what you need to do is you
need to take you know, it's like a test group and a control group.
You go and get a document from the time period that this supposedly occurred
in that has nothing to do with this, and look at the marketings and
begin to look at the language, and then begin to look at the other
traits of the document, and you'll soon find that you can begin to tell
which ones are fake and which ones are real, because all of that stuff
suggested by Chuck is ridiculous that so many agencies would be interconnected one unless it's
a paragraph about them. There's no way that certain agencies, like three or
four or five different agencies are all going to be signing off on the same
thing, right, And we go through each agency, and as you know,
you know, Mike, disbelieve the burn bag story, as I do
with a lot of things as well. Even if they destroy it, as
we know from the Defense Intelligence Agency, there's always another copy of something.
There's always a marketing left behind. Like Chucks talked about mculture being figured out
in the financial documents, there's always a trace of something. So it is
almost impossible to purge something from the record, and if it doesn't exist anywhere
in the record, chances are it's not a real record. Yeah. Well,
and there's the problem, right is that again we've also shown on this
show very very succinctly that if you do what you said and look at the
contemporaneous stuff and examine it and see that it doesn't match number one. But
even if they've gone out of their way to make something look relatively correct.
Again, the redundancy comes in. This is why. And we did a
show on this way, like because people were asking, why is it that
they redact one thing and then they don't redact it and this is a game
they're playing, and it's like, no, this is the inefficiency because of
the bloated size of the bureaucracy that they can't possibly communicate with each other enough
to get a consistent reaction. This is why you have some stuff that's redacted
in one form and then you get it from another office. It's the same
memo, it's redacted in a completely different way because somebody separately made that judgment.
And nobody bothered to corelate these things because they can't. It's too massive
to do. It's even with all the wonderful computer technologies we have now,
it's impossible for them to get all the copies of the documents that exist.
Remember where all these copies went to? Okay, even preserving the former systems
and possibly track them all down to absolutely eliminate something. And we've seen this
before where yeah, the military intelligence doesn't have it, but the CIA does.
The NSA doesn't have it, but the oni does you know? Or
so on and so forth, because they can't even agree amongst themselves what should
be removed, what should be redacted. They can't. They just can't.
It's impossible to make these determinations. Even when they're trying to hide stuff.
They've turned around and re redacted things later that you might have gotten a copy
of a document in nineteen eighty eight that looks better than it does now in
twenty twenty four, because they decided to redact more stuff later, and you
could possibly have stuff that would be classified today, like can't see any of
this, And yet you know that blacked out page didn't look like that in
eighty eight because nobody thought to redact it in eighty eight. Yet, Okay,
this happens back and forth all the time. As a matter of fact,
we even covered the fact that they reclassified a bunch of documents and then
you can't even find out which documents got reclassified. If you called the National
Archives and you say, look, I'm a good citizen, I want to
turn back over these classified pieces of information that I have, which I'm now
not legally allowed to possess. I'd like to give them back to you.
You can't because they can't tell you even what it is that has been reclassified.
You could potentially have stuff that's been reclassified if you collected it years ago.
Because they change determinations as they go. Different attitudes come in, different
ideas about what needs to be hidden and what doesn't, and it continuously changes.
It's not an evolution, it's just a continuous sort of a shifting possibilities
regarding this stuff. Do you think that's an accurate description, Carmine, or
am I over explaining this? Oh? Yes, and I think we uh,
last time we were discussing the case. I another you know, just
problem with the system is is that there is of course overclassification that we all
deal with, as you were stating, but there's also in some cases under
classification. Because in the in the latest batch of the twenty twenty three documents,
and I think some of the twenty twenty two is maybe all the way
back to the twenty seventeens, there's files that shouldn't be in there. Yeah,
there's later intelligence reports that just have the word JFK on them, and
some idiot at either the Central Intelligence Agency or NARA was like, well,
says JFK in twenty in twenty twenty three. Literally there was stuff put out
in the initial release that wasn't even requested. Yeah. Uh Ka airport was
one of the things I noticed, Yeah, when I was going through the
files, right, stuff on the JFK airport. Uh And and a whole
bunch of I'm telling you there, there's hundreds of files that were not even
part of the request that were Yeah, and nobody has an explanation of how
they got there by the way. They're just well, I just it's mismanagement.
It's mismanagement over time, and no one, as you said, colating
or you know, constructing some sort of viable system to keep everything in order.
Yeah. Yeah, and and literally they can't get each agency to sit
down and go get like one because it's so massive. You know, you're
talking about five million documents got dumped into the National Archives at one point,
right, all at once. And some of that stuff is duplications. Like
I tell the story all the time about the multiple copies of a newspaper article
I end up with when I when I was getting documents sent to me,
and it was frustrating because I was paying for it by the page. Thanks,
but a new paper article that somebody stuck in their file just happens to
be there and was formally classified. Now it isn't I want the copy of
it. I end up with three copies of a newspaper clipping because three different
people on the same committee had it in their folders. I mean, this
is the kind of stuff you get. And yeah, they're under different numbers
and everything. It's all I'm saying is that I think in that one case,
In most of the cases, it's the hindrance, But in that one
case, it can be useful if it's not prior published. Because sometimes what
they'll do, like you said, it's not the same people doing everything.
They'll like one third of each will be classified. But if you put the
three together, you can get the whole article, right. That's the funny
part about it, Yeah, is that sometimes it's like paragraph one. Imagine
there's three paragraphs in a document, Okay, just a simple one page document.
There's three paragraphs. Well, in the first generation of that document,
the first paragraph is completely blacked out, but the other two or not.
In the second one, two out of the three are blacked out, and
only the second one is revealed. In the third one, the last two
paragraphs are revealed, but the first one is still blacked out. Yeah,
you can assemble the whole document from the three sources. Yep, And that
has happened, too, true, But but that's rare. That's much rarer
than finding just useless duplicates, Yeah, useless lots of useless duplicates, useless
duplicates or singular words that are black like they blacked out words that were not
legible in the copies for no reason, just because there was a chance that
this meant something. It was a name, and the name is not legible.
It's just not even you know, even in the the pristine copy of
it. It's not legible anymore because it's been copied and copied and this is
you know, the committee guy's copy that he got from the copy of the
congressman who you know, and so on. Anyway, Joe, any comments
you want to add on this, No, I completely agree. Missed file
among these government bureaucrats is one of our best chances of finding little and significant
eature eggs that could put together pieces of the puzzle. And mk Ultu is
a great example. But you know, I found an amazing document in the
releases in April of twenty twenty three as we were preparing for Lancer presentation.
So there are still interesting things coming out, and misfiling is always very likely
scenario to happen when you're dealing with that many documents. And yeah, the
people that know the context, the researchers that take it seriously will and know
what to look for. We'll be able to pick up on that, right.
And you know, one of the most serious guys I ever heard given
audio presentation about the Majestic twelve stuff and JFK and Aliens, and he was
about ready to reveal to the American public that it was aliens and this is
why the CIA had him killed. One of the most serious guys I ever
heard. Concluded his presentation with a completely anomalous edition, which I think says
it all. He said. In addition, the other thing that he didn't
want, you know, that they had to cover up was that he was
smoking weed with Mary Myers and doing mushrooms with other women. So you know,
I don't know what to say except that that is a more logical reason
to cover up things and maybe to kill him than this, because this is
based on nothing. Okay. JFK's drug use, and there was drug use
in the JFK Whitehouse, but you know, it was generally from this position.
And maybe we can get into that sometime, but not today. Mike
Majestic twelve. Yeah, I think that's one of the most annoying, ridiculous
and strange things that doesn't seem to want to go away. What do you
think, Mike, Well, these things get recycled over and over and over
again by different people just they don't care if it's real or not. They
just want attention. There you go, that could be one motive and god
knows what the rest of them are. Meanwhile, we're gonna take a quick
break here. We're gonna let Mike Swanson go, but again go to Wallstreet
Window dot com. Be in the know, Wallstreet Window dot com. And
I highly recommend all the books that Mike has written, you know, especially
The War State and Why the Vietnam War. And you're working on the second
volume in that series now, right, Mike, yep, that's right.
So, and we're still looking at a possible release maybe toward the end of
the year. Is that Is that still a possibility or do you know?
Or they won't be this year? Oh? It won't be this year.
Okay, now, hey, look you know what it is. Larry Hancock
I think is going to have a book out not too long for No,
that's great. Yeah, I'm looking very forward to his reframing, if you
will, or Oswald in three dimension, as he mentioned on the show recently.
But maybe we'll get Mike's book in twenty twenty five, after all the
selection nonsense is over with. Maybe maybe we'll get it there, Mike,
what do you think next year? Yeah? I hope so too. I'm
looking forward to it. And again, Mike's writing style is great because it
takes very complex issues and breaks them down so that even idiots like me can
understand him. So highly recommend his books. And again you see the Red
Book there on the sidebar tochelli dot com the War State. But also if
you're interested in the history of Danville, Virginia, Mike has written a book
about that as well. He's got some other financial based text out there,
some other stuff, but you can always go to Wall Street Window dot com.
And who knows, maybe we'll be talking about Mike's more recent ventures.
Do you want to mention that before we go? Oh, we'll do next
time. Next time you got it. But yeah, it's revelation through conversation.
Wallstreet, Window, dott Gold Silver, the stock market, wall Stream,
window dot dot. Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep
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there, now go there? Now? If he was expressed by callers school,
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Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson. So returning to the second segment
of the o'celif peck here on a Thor's day, Yes it is, and
uh yeah, the fifteenth of February, continuing on with JFK Myts seventeen and
Mike Swanson is not with us now, but I still got Joe Burrelli with
me and Carmin Savastano. So I'm gonna let Carmi continue on regarding part of
what it is that he wants to discuss tonight, and then we're going to
get into something of interest that has to do with myths and how people create
them and how people propagate them and who might actually be doing that currently.
Anyways, continue on, my Carmin, because look, we're about to touch
on one of my favorite characters actually in the JFK Land of Myths, So,
you know, continuing on from the Roselli stash, and gee, have
we not taken care of that yet? Let's let's go forward. What is
next, Carmin? So just to clarify for everyone from before the break,
we're discussing, you know, the supposed members of Deboor team group posed by
Robert Plumley, and we had done Jenner Rezly. So next is e Howard
Hunt. And luckily again we can regard the evidence and quickly dismissed the claims
of Plumbley and Hunt's verifiable location was quite distant from dearly Plaza and again,
by the way, interconnected with Chauncey Hult, interconnected with Judith Farry, Baker
inter Frank Sturgis, Frank Sturgis, interconnected with Hash Plumley seeing it from the
other side of the street, interconnected with the three Tramps, interconnected. Yeah,
I'm sorry, Yeah, go ahead though, so uh oh, and
any other time I independently that Hunt was present in Dearly Plaza and this likely
made him a viable infamous subject for Plumbley to lend his myth's credibility, lend
his myth credibility, right, and let's never forget the work of Alex Jones
and others who you know, clearly wanted to show you and Jim Mars,
the late Jim Marsh clearly wanted to show you what the confession of the Howard
Hunt, right, the deathbed confession. Don't forget that from the guy who
used to write spy novels, the Ordgate guy. Yeah, that e Howard
Hunt, just saying he later recovered and recanted his confession. Yeah, it
wasn't quite his deathbed because he didn't die right after being in that bed though.
He was pretty sickly. And you know, maybe his son had certain
motivations for bringing that out. Not making any judgments or anything, but it
is what it was. And of course this guy was a fictional writer as
well, E Howard Hunt. That is, he did. He wrote many
spine novels. You can go find them, you know today any CIA officer
so fairly talented at Liane, Yeah, definitely so sorry, good go ahead,
E Howard Hunt. So, while the House Select Committee on Assassinations photographic
studies dispelled some of the Hunt's presence in Deally Plaza, claims, the man
himself eluded those seeking his location November twenty second, nineteen sixty three for decades.
In my prior research for his location, I came upon several internal agency
documents that support Hunt was an improbable agent for use in JFK's assassination. Several
CIA reports note that Hunted not travel in the period of the assassination and did
not take sick leave. They also noted his financial records supported this premise.
Yet E. Howard Hunts, never want to divulge the truth of his own
accord, had made claims found to be false in court. Under questioning by
Mark Lane, he claimed being at home in the morning of the assassination and
went shopping with his wife later that day. He was lying, of course,
and while laying an others believed that Hunt's deception was to conceal link to
the JFK case. According to then classified agency files, it was to conceal
his true location secretly meeting officials in one Cuban exile about overthrowing Phiel Castro.
The HSCA record states on November twenty second, Hunt, Agency Inspector General Lyman
Kirkpatrick, Deputy Director for Plans Richard Helms, and Cuban exile Harry Ruis Williams
were meeting at headquarters regarding an anti Castro planning and it was this Hunt attempted
to conceal. Despite the confusion and dishonesty on E. Howard Hunt's part,
the record clearly states he, like Tosh Plumley, Johnny Rosselli, and Richard
Mguell, have no verifiable connection to President Kennedy's assassination. And when you're talking
about Mark Lane and questioning him in court, you're clearly discussing the Liberty Lobby
case where I Howard Hut sued them overclaiming that he was President Dally Plaza,
et cetera, et cetera. People have tried to make him one of the
three Tramps, and then they've also tried to make him a guy who's out
there in this really really kind of stylish hat for nineteen sixty three, you
know, dressed in a really interesting way, supposedly President Dally Plaza for god
knows what reason. You know, they never quite give a reason except I
don't know if anybody's ever claimed that he's a shooter directly. Is he supposed
to be a shooter? Well, I don't think he was. He was
more of a counter intelligence and intelligence gathering. I don't think he was really
really skilled with weapons. That's not I haven't seen that any of his files
anyway. Well, no, but you're it's a basic training. But yeah,
but you're talking about the reality. I'm asking about the myth because you
know, sure somewhere he's a shooter. Yeah, I mean in somebody's story
somewhere, you know, literally, just like John Hankey never says in his
video that George HW. Bush has a gun in his hand, but he
does show a picture of George H. W Bush with a gun in his
hand during his presentation. So and you know, no possible historical evidence to
show that George hw knows probably anything more than basic training methods for firing a
weapon. So I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I
don't think anybody's tried to put a gun in his hand directly. He was
supposed to be an observer, a guy watching, keeping the troops in line,
so to speak. Right, supposedly, until you know, we debunked
that. I believe Steve Rowe is the gentleman who produced the picture that should
have been Tyler Texas when everybody said he dearly plotma oh yeah, hw Bush
right? Where was George Bush during the assassination? Where was Barbara Bush?
Right? Well, so happens he was at a Kawanis Club meeting. But
anyway, that's independently verified for a book and other sources. Yeah. Yeah,
and and there's photographic proof of him giving a lunch again, a lunch
time discussion. He's at a luncheon for the Kawanas Club, which, by
the way, lands in about that area where Kennedy was in Dally Plaza around
lunchtime. Okay, yeah, So unless he has magic bit of distant bit
of distance, he couldn't cover that distance at that time, you know,
I mean, unless you want to tell me that you know, the Stephen
King thing is correct and somebody went back in time and portaled him over there.
I don't know, maybe, but yes, go ahead. So four
men were named. Those are all the which I think are necessary to the
plot, people who are kind of somehow the glue that holds together all of
these many stories. So, as far as the assassins, four men were
named in the highly quote highly educated guests as the assassins in Daly Plaza by
the podcast series, and they're identified as quote cold blooded assassins. In my
view, that is two men too many for an effective plot. But we
as we have noted, four assassins is still a conservative number in comparison to
even more improbable popular scenarios a lah Fetzer in fourteen. So the number arrived
at for assassins seems in many cases to be arbitrary and likely inflated. Three
would at least cleave to using a triangulation of fire, but in my view
three is still possibly too many. If the plot was to be successful,
rely on a minimum of compartmentalized participants, and this would assist in preventing discovery
and concealing the plot. Nevertheless, these are the men named responsible. The
first alleged killer was Hermenio Dias Garcia, a Cuban exile that was identified by
Fabian Escalante, a former Cuban intelligence officer. Escalante stated that Garcia was a
gangster, and it appears the word of this intelligence ag and is considered worthwhile
on not just his gangster affiliations, but also that he was one of the
assassins. The series fails to offer any real background on this mysterious person,
so I decided to do so for them. Sandalio Herminio Diaz Garcia aka Herminio
Diez Garcia was a member of the thirtieth of November Anti Castro Cuban Exile group
headquartered in Miami. Among the reasons Garcia is an unlikely assassin is because evidence
verifies he did not arrive in the United States until July of nineteen sixty three
and spent his time forming a small anti Castro squad made underworld racketeering contacts,
and was, like several notable exiles, debriefed by the Central Intelligence Agency during
September of nineteen sixty three to gain intelligence regarding Cuba. Garcia during his interview
at State. Among his eventual goals goals was the assassination of Fidel Castro.
This quickly prompted agency officials to state, quote, we dropped contact with him
at that time and never did have an operational relationship with him. Referring back
to what Chuck said about Rosellie, need Less to say, the agency didn't
have the greatest past association trying to use criminals to kill Castra. Yeah,
they had some troubles there. You know. It's interesting, by the way,
just the use of the word gangster in this very general kind of open
way is fascinating to me because people read into that in all sorts of different
ways. It's interpreted in very different ways. Matter of fact, when I
first read that guy's name, I thought maybe they were adding a nickname to
it, because Hermano is what a Spanish for brother, right, so you
know Hermano. Maybe they're saying it's like brother. You know, I don't
know, nickname, street name possibly, But it also vaguely resembles some of
what Dean Anderson was saying. Dean Andrews, excuse me, was saying right
when he said, I don't know, I pulled names out of the thin
air, you know, and it's a jazz talk where he gave up all
these different let's just call them Hispanic sounding names. Supposedly to Garrison, he
you know, famously, John Candy in the movie says, I just gave
him whatever name popped into Mikebsa. Sorry, I just would have loved to
have been in the room when the agency officials were questioning him and he said,
oh, yeah, I'm gonna kill Castro. And they're just like,
oh boy, right, you know, oh do we know this one,
pally, you don't even know that. We got operations going on right now
talking Yeah, I mean you know, oh, okay, yeah, one
of those gotcha. Sorry, go ahead. Based on the ongoing CIA at
Thamson Castro's life in that period, Garcia's open discussion of assassination, it makes
some sense to disance themselves from this seemingly loose lipped figure. Plus he said
it in the first interview. It's like, Hi, guys, I want
to kill Castro. Right, maybe that's not the best agent to be secretive
with anyway. You know, you're there for your intake interview at CIA,
and you say, hey, who do I talk to you about running cocaine?
Yeah? No, Now that you'll see he actually had a little bit
of familiar already. That's why I brought it up, Goad. So the
agency had the Amlash plot underway when Garcia made his declaration, and he was
not required to execute their future operations. They also did not have a great
record of attempting to use criminals, as we've spoke him before, i'llo Johnny
Rosselli. The FBI notes possessing a useful Cuban exile informant near the end of
October, with contacts to both mafia boss Santo Trafficante and criminals within the exile
community. Garcia stated waiting a while after seeking asylum for other anti Castro groups
to assassinate the Cuban dictator before years later acting himself. Sandalio, according to
documents, was eventually a bodyguard of Bob Boss Santo Trafficante, smuggled drugs,
sold weapons, and this adheres to reports of his past criminal history. However,
all this recorded activity and officials tracking him would leave scant time and opportunity
to undertake a clandestine assassination just months following his arrival to America, Right,
I mean, if you want to believe, you want to believe, but
you better hit the ground running if you get here in July. Then you've
got to go through all the rigmarole of applying for asylum, of finding somewhere
to live, of orchestrating your family, you know. And at the same
time he's committing crimes and making deals with lacketeers and being interviewed by the CIA.
He was busy too. Unless we get some evidence, I see no
reason why this is the guy. But I'm trying to give people actual background
on him, not just a story. So so the aforementioned FBI informant would
identify Garcia's association to the Mafia amongst nineteen sixty four. Garcia did participate in
exile operations targeting Cuba during the middle of the nineteen sixties, according to files,
and they reveal he committed and withdrew from at least one paramilitary assassination operation
not sanctioned by the CIA, just Cuban exiles trying to take a Castro on
their own. Subsequent go sos offer that Sandialla was killed on a beach with
other exiles during a failed operation targeting Cuba amid nineteen sixty six. The goal
of the failed operation was the assassination of Fidel Castro and notably Garcia was said
to plan the act by using his quote thirty eight caliber pistol with a silencer.
This failure to even get close to his target is inconsistent commitment to operations
and choice of weapon. Further, do not lend themselves to Garcia being an
effective assassin. Remember, no evidence is presented by the series, but Garcia
is merely endorsed upon the word of a prior Direccion Generality Intelligentsia DGI official suggestion,
and I find this quite deficient. Additionally, notable is that Escalante believed
the Maurice Bishops story of Antonio Vissiana, who claimed that David Attlie Phillips and
Jay Walden Moore at differing times, were bishop, which, like so many
other ideas of this podcast series, is not reliable, lacking significant documentation or
several corroborating sources that can be verified. I see no why reason why this
particular exile is more likely an assassin than any other quote daring figure exiles such
as a Manola Ray with his own autonomously functioning group and several others leading exiles
and sensed with the Kennedy administration's failure for Cuba would also possess a greater motive
and means to conspire. As Russell states, this is just a name.
They're best guests that have proven assassin. So there you have it, and
that final statement boils it down pretty well, and you've just been writed.
Well, you know, I would say that that's a fairly good roundup.
So Carmine has a lot more information, and believe it, there's going to
be an eighteen, nineteen, and twenty of this series one way or another.
So as we continue on with seventeen, I want to turn our attention
to something else because there might be a couple of points of contention that I
don't know, I might have never paid any attention to had I not been
Lancer this past year. And why is that? Well, ultimately it concludes
with a clip I'm going to play for you here, and we're going to
get an explanation from Joe, because you know, Carmine presented a Lancer,
but he did it via remote and with a pre recorded presentation. Joe was
there even though there was a prerecorded presentation with him and Rob at Lancer,
but he bore witness to some things that went on with let's call them another
podcast and ultimately it concludes. The story concludes, We're going to go back
to front on this one. Okay. The story concludes with this clip here
that I'm going to play, which I was sent just prior to showtime the
Lone Gunman Podcast. Accuse your show ripping them off in the first ninety seconds,
so their last podcast, spicy. I saw this and came in before
the show. Who are they? It's there's a podcast called the Lone Gunman
Podcast. Okay. I did find it, and I found a show and
there's like a micro clip where you stated that, oh god, we were
just talking about him, but the guy Phillips, not David Athlete Phillips,
but mister X who mister yeah, that Fletcher Prouty was a maniac, scientologist,
et cetera. Or I didn't say he was a maniac. I said
he was a scientologist, but you said this guy's a maniac as a side.
But it was just off the cuffs of stone, okay. And they
pulled this. There's this little snippet and an Oscar Wild quote that they say,
the imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I've never even heard of
these people, I know, I really don't understand it, and honestly,
I wouldn't watch it because it's the lone Gunman podcast. Who gives a shit
about these people? Let's move on, fuck these people? Are you kidding
me? All right? John? So that is the way that America's Untold
Stories answered a question from a chat on YouTube about the idea that you know,
maybe maybe there's something. Oh, by the way, they're not familiar
with never heard of these people. You met him at Lancer and there was
an interesting meeting at Lancer for one of the figures. And I can't remember
who's supposed to be the comedian. Between the two of them, one of
them is supposedly a comedian. I think the other one is the researcher.
I think that's the story. Mark Robert we call him Gruber, is the
storyteller, and I'm stressing that word storyteller. And the other guy, Eric
Hunley is more of the heck guy that just lets Mark talk the whole episode.
And their podcast is called America's Untold Stories, and that's what they do.
They tell stories. And we'll hear a clip of shortly of one of
their stories they told. But after they told us to go f ourselves of
course Rob and I had to respond, and on episode two seventy three we
devoted almost twenty five minutes to their shenanigans. Rob were apart them on their
prey Ford episode because Rob has been one of the few people who has dived
into Larry Crayford. They didn't say the name right, but it's it's crazy,
and then they don't even do the research or the you know, takes
two minutes to find out that we're not a lone Gunman based podcast. And
it's kind of an ironic title now that there's two people posting it's in theory
should be the Lone Gunmen, but it's even more ironic. And they did.
They just don't get it, and they're too lazy, and they're storytellers,
and they they poked the bear look fair enough, and they're semi popular
on YouTube fair enough, and they made their presence known at the Lancer Conference.
Now we have a thirty second clip of how they made their presence known
at the Lancer Conference. Despite the fact that this went on for quite a
while, there was a bit of disturbance while people were speaking on stage,
and there was difficulty with people being able to hear in the back of the
hall during the live presentations, and indeed, my co host on Friday Nights
was also involved in this event that went on during the event where you know,
people felt that they were quite entitled to behave any which way they wanted
to in a public space because I guess alcohol was being served and you know,
when you're rock stars of the YouTube, then you're rock stars. So
this is kind of an example of their We do have audio, thanks to
Doug Campbell, of of Huntley being disrespectful at the Dallas conference and here it
is, Okay, all that crap is going on to back. At first
you heard Rob Clark's voice introducing this and obviously this is a clip from either
Quick Kits or Loan Gunman, which is it from Loan Government Loan and uh,
it came in a little fuzzy, but especially essentially some guys stood up.
Uh. Huntley was in the back corner of the room. You know
what I'm talking about, Chuck. You were there where you couldn't really see
the stage, and he had his little group of minions around him and they
were drunkenly being disrespectful during the banquet, which you know featured Robert Grodin and
Deborah Conway spoke at Deborah Conway, that's exactly where it happened. It was
that or Groden. But yeah, someone literally stood up and told them to
shut the f up because you're being disrespectful. And Grobert, the other host
of America Unsold Stories, was not even listening, was outside behind the bar
with his own little group telling his own little stories, even with his fascination
with the Supprouver film, had no interest of listening to Grodin. And they
eventually got kicked out and went down to the bar and got kicked out of
there, and it was just a whole mess. Well, two of the
guys, two guys at a table adjacent to them in the back. One
of them was my co host on Friday Nights, be Pete, the tall
guy in the blue shirt and the hat with the glasses. That was be
Pete. Yes, I remember him, and uh, I'm not sure if
it was him or the guy next to him, Like literally was like,
look we can, we can, uh, you know, settle this outside
if you want, uh kind of situations here, okay, which would have
been interesting because we were on the eleventh floor, you know. So I
don't know if they would have to take the elevator to go outside with it
or what. But it did seem to calm down a bit after this.
But this this carrying on, this noise was being made again during presentations at
the banquet, uh, you know, where awards were given, Debora did
a special thing about you know, women that are gone that contributed to the
case. Robert grows almost almost in tears. It was just so disrespectful.
Well because one of them was her sister, you know, that's the first
thing that really moved her. But she also worked with Mary Farrell and you
know, so on and so forth, and was doing that. Bob Groden
did a presentation, Larry Hancock did a presentation. Anyway, it was the
banquet actually ran kind of along the presentations and all that that night. But
part of what was going on there is people in the back couldn't hear and
you're hearing the arguments about that in that clip. So that's what that was
all together. Meanwhile, there's also a short thing on YouTube. Maybe you
want to explain that clip real fast before we play it for people. But
I have an ultimate conclusion on America's untold stories. When we're done wrapping this
up, So go ahead and explain this short on YouTube, please, great,
Well, this is one of the shorts, and of course shorts on
YouTube are made to get views, so they're a little extra ridiculous. But
this one was just so ridiculous, so out of control, and just so
I don't even know the words for it, and I'll let you play it,
and then I want to get Carmin's reaction to it. And it links
very nicely to the nexus of madness that Carmine was just discussing too, because
you know the abort mission and the secondary plots, and you know, the
people that don't necessarily know what the plan of the assassination was, but somehow
know what the backup and aboard plots were. It's interesting you don't know what
you're aboarding, but you know there was an aboard team. You don't know
what it is that was being plotted exactly, but you know about the second
plot that didn't go off, or the backup plans you know about but not
the initial plans. I always find that interesting. But anyway, here's that
clip. If it'll play it for us, let's see. Um hmm,
okay, sorry if you already answered this question. After Kennedy was shot but
he survived, was there a backup plan to make sure he didn't leave the
hospital alive? I don't know. The backup plan was to go, Peter,
sorry about your loss. By the way, the backup plan was to
go to the LBJ ranch the following day, where he would never have been
allowed to escape. There was a fundraising barbecue A very few people know about
this, a Democratic fundraiser schedule for the LBJ ranch on Sunday, and I
from what I understand, there was a plan there with multiple snipers to not
let him leave the ranch. Okay, from what I understand, there was
a backup plan there the next day, cause if you had an aborted attack
or a partial it's that was unsuccessful in Dealey Plaza, I'm sure plans wouldn't
have changed, by the way. Uh but I guess assuming that nothing happened
and nobody saw anything, and the Secret Service wasn't tipped and nobody caught wind
of anything at all, and they'll get them the next day, maybe so,
but maybe again, you know, and I've heard other people discuss this
about, well, there were actually shooters that were getting ready to be there
at the trademark, which was the ultimate destination. When they would have stopped
moving, they would have been there for the next speech. There were shooters
there, there were shooters. What back that long? We're going to hit
numbers soon? Well, we're already passed bets or numbers, aren't we,
Because I mean, how many teams do you have to assemble between spotters,
radio guys, shooters, extra tramps, witnesses. People claim that people were
put in position to make films and take pictures. I mean, yeah,
you know, uh as like most of these things unfortunately, well not fortunately
because the show ridiculous. As most of these things unfortunately work out, they
fall apart because it's just too many people. You cannot keep a secret amongst
that many people. You just can't. I mean we've seen it through just
leaks in the last let's say twenty years. I mean it was less frequent
then, but there still were leaks, and there's there were people that you
know, spoke out properly, like Elsberg, like Mike mentioned earlier. So
you were going to get something, As Larry said in one of his named
on his books, someone would have talked. Chances are yeah, someone if
if a direct link to the assassination existed, still chances are they're dead.
And as I and Chuck have discussed before, just you know, in discussing,
you know, postulating on what would have happened if these conspirators had a
brain in their head, the assassins were dead within a week. They were
sent on vacation, and when they arrived there are people waiting for them.
Yeah. Yeah, either either that or you figure out a way to get
them all on one plane that never makes its destination, you know, ollinge
and nice, nice little buddy Holly killing plane, you know, something like
that, and yeah, it's all over with. And I mean accidents happen.
I mean, these are mastermind So you got to think a mastermind is
going to be a few steps ahead. If that's you know, someone that
could contrive the plot that I would think most reasonable people that look into this
case of thinking of is a mastermind. Well see, here's the problem with
someone would have talked as a phrase, by the way, no offense to
Larry Hancock, actually praise an honor to the man. But quite frankly,
let's get down to it. If someone did talk, here's what it's lost
in the soup of crap. That is now out there with the alleged claims,
with the people that are talking that are misleading you, with the storytellers,
if you will, the storytellers, if you will. Okay, they're
out there, what doing what muddying the water giving you the idea that they
have a story to tell. Storytellers. Interesting because the guy told me he
was a comedian, by the way, and I had an exchange back and
forth with him. By the way, I am not an official member or
anything connected to the Lone Gunman podcast, which you know, the guy's like,
oh, if them because of the name of the podcast. Anyway,
as per usual, don't listen to it or examine what it is you're talking
about, because that would be consistent with your behavior obviously, and I get
it exactly exactly. So well, go ahead, Joe, let me speak
on this place. Go ahead, Okay. So the fun the funny part
about it is you actually mentioned the words liberty lobby and a few minutes ago,
right, So it's an inside joke within the Lone Gunman podcast that Rob
has trouble saying liberty lobby and sometimes says liberty lobberty, and it's I'm sure
where carline. It's been a little year's long joke, and Grobert on one
of his recent episodes on Prowdy or something said liberty lobbity, and we played
that as a joke. So one of the mutual listeners essentially made a super
chat that wasn't really accurate that that claimed we were hijacking something, while ironically
they their episode was on Ed Butler, the Inca Guy, and they had
played some of Oswalt's radio and television interviews which we had uploaded a week and
a half before. So if anyone was hijacking anything, it wasn't us.
And just because Rob decided to bring me on as a co host and because
we decided to take it live does not mean to be hijacked anything. It's
completely added context. And then we tore them apart for half an hour because
of their ignorance. Okay, so to respond to the thing that you played,
yes, that was disrespectful, inappropriate. If they really had something to
say, they would have, you know, tried to present or they would
have tried to offer a contrary view in some sort of forum rather than just
scream like idiots in the back of the room while you were talking. I
looked up. So Groubert is the guy that did this. Grobert is the
guy that said fuck these guys. Yeah. So well, he is a
writer who has been in a few movies and National Lampoon, Yeah for the
National Lampoon, Yeah, La Weekly, High Times, Penthouse MTV. So
a, he's a pseudo celebrity. So he thinks that, you know,
because of his pseudo celebrity set, that he's he's correct, rather than you
guys who actually produce evidence and believe your mind's open to new ideas. Interesting.
Interesting, he's talking about Ed Butler too, because Butler's just for the
listener's edification. That's one of the guys who was involved in Lee Harvey Oswald's
interviews in New Orleans in the summer sixty three after he got arrested with Carlos
Berengere for his you know FPCC fair Play for Cuba Committee distribution of pamphlets,
right and all that, you know, where he ends up going and taking
like a ten dollars fine or something like that. I forget how much it
was, wasn't much, you know, and that arrest for disturbing the peace
out there, right, So he gets invited to two radio things one radio
one TV really the Latin listening Post, and then WDSU TV conversation cavalcade or
something like that, I forget, but anyway, art Blanche, carte blanche,
that's it, thank you. Uh, conversation carte blanche. There it
is. But either way, Butler is what the the interviewer who is trying
to deal with the debate between him and Berengear right, yeah, yeah,
okay, so and then the other guy, well yeah, well Stucky is
that yeah, and Stucky's the guy with the with the Latin listening post.
Uh you know for people that a Bill Stucky Bill Stucky, right, So
I mean yeah, so there you go. And those things are you know,
out there. You can find him download him from somewhere online. Plus
the little clips from w DSU t V where he's interviewed briefly about the events
and and uh these were these were even released on vinyl records in the nineteen
sixties and seventies, I think. So anyway, it's just something to point
out to the listeners he was discussing that. Now on to Proudy, and
you know, Proudy's a scientologist and whatever Prouty is connected to liberty lobby,
and I don't have trouble saying it now. I probably will at some point
and missmix it up because of this, But it happens, much like I
kept saying Patricia instead of Priscilla. But you know, things happened mc millen,
right, it happens. It does, especially when you're going over and
over stuff. But anyway, America's untold stories. You know, there might
be a reason why some of those stories are untold, And I get it.
There is a lane for true crime podcasting out there, and you don't
have to do much outside of go into the headlines or know much about the
case right away. By the way, when the guy is asked do you
know about this? He says the most honest thing upfront, which is I
don't know, because he doesn't he's heard a rumor, he's heard a speculation
from somebody about maybe since they were going to go to the LBJ ranch at
some point during the Texas trip, maybe he was going to get killed there,
and people are contradicted himself in his own response, yeah, exactly so,
But but he gave an honest response to start with. You know,
the excited utterances of people should always be observed when they're first confronted with a
question. Well, and that's that's added nonsense because everyone knows the best myth
is the Murchison branch. Well, that was my next We're going to have
the party beforehand. I mean that how much of a steal from that story
is this new day after they had guys set up? I mean, once
again, Lyndon Johnson not a mastermind. No, but you have to file
criminal certain Yeah, absolutely a criminal Wallace mac Wallace could have been in the
Bush's carline. Yeah, rule that out. Let's not completely even though we've
been over that on this show. And again I point you to a faustian
bargain. Oh no, no, of course I put you to the faustian
bargain the book by Joan Mellon. Uh, you know where she decided to
what go and actually get some primary evidence and have an exam by an actual
expert and double checked the whole thing about mcwallis's fingerprint being present on the sixth
floor of the school book depository. Sorry, yeah, go ahead, Carmi.
I was just gonna say, and as Chuck's about to say, it
was not Yeah, when you actually checked the records and you see that.
I believe also the person who originally made the claim in The Men Who Killed
Kennedy had no license at the time, had looked at the xerox copying of
an actual original right on and on and on. Just things weren't done,
and that's why these bad ideas continue to exist. Whereas Joan Mellon Winton had,
you know, had the fingerprint evidence acquired that was collected at the time.
Guess what. Macwallace was inducted into the military and utilized that particular copy
of his fingerprints for the comparison and gave it to a guy who used to
instruct people directly about fingerprint evidence. Okay, who went and got again a
copy of the photograph to examine, you know, so on and so forth.
And that's all laid out in the appendix to that book Faustian barg And
look it up. It's the Macwallace story, which quite honestly was not the
story that she should have written. If she was really interested in selling books
or making the waves in the podcast community, she really should have written a
book that framed mac Wallace, because that would have been a whole lot more
acceptable, sold a lot more books, you know, like the guy who
literally did and I'm witnessed to it, threatened her directly. Roger Stone,
who gets away with threatening people all the time, whether their witnesses he's attempting
to intimidate and gets pardoned for or it happens to be a JFK writer that
disagrees with his crap, you know, one way or another his book,
and uh, let me see who else. Oh yeah, the blood,
money and power thing and that that whole bit. What was that guy's name,
bar McLellan? Thank you again? These are all worthy mentioned it.
I wish I didn't both, but these are all worthy of mentions because tonight's
topic is the myths, and I figure we might as well get in as
many as possible. But ultimately, America's untold stories. Maybe there's a reason
why they're untold, and maybe you ought to stick to your true crime headlines
and not try and present yourselves as experts because your expertise, and I don't
call myself an expert, by the way, but your expertise is not even
up to the standard of the blind guy on the microphone right now, okay,
just saying, just saying, And I've only got a high school diploma,
Granted, I'm not a comedian or a great speaker, as you and
I exchanged barbs there in Lancer Proves. But again, you know, if
it's all about attitude and popularity on YouTube, you win. I got it.
But you know what can I say? Well, I would say in
response to that, at least everyone that did take part in the cover up
with can prove had a degree. So congratulations, go I guess. I
guess it means more well educated people are willing to lie and they're questioning and
destroy the legal record at times. Right, So look, it's not just
the man you know who killed Kennedy, which, by the way, ironically
is the same title they used on that PBS special in what was it eighty
eight around the twenty fifth anniversary that David Lifton played a big part in.
Oh somebody reused that title. Well that's what they call it. Who killed
jfk Oh? Yeah? Who killed cal Moost? Yeah? Yeah. They
just didn't say the men, Yeah, they just said who good Kennedy?
The bar part of it because I was actually, like I told you,
I was going to try to lay out some of these guys in an article,
like just try to take apart the people that we know for sure weren't
there, just so we can put them to bed at least as well as
we can. But I was still toying with the men who Didn't Kill Kennedy.
Well, no, no, that that's look you're hang on. I
want to get this straight for everybody listening. I'm actually talking about the PBS
special on NOE okay original that was called Who Killed JFK? Exactly the same
title that Reiner used. Yeah, oh okay, I'm sorry. No,
I thought you were talking about the men who Kill Kennedy? Okay, yeah,
no, I didn't know that there wasn't so he just totally lifted it.
Yeah, he completely lifted from the nineteen eighty eight special for his that
was on PBS. And I'm sure that Rob Reiner had seen the PBS special
because he's a PBS kind of guy. And you know, comebye, boys,
let's make ice kae. There you go. I mean, I'm just
saying, yeah, I was going to ask, did you want to discuss
more of that? Or do you mind if I I have a couple more
assassins? Well, Joe, I have a question for you, because you
guys might have I can't sit through these guys, you know, and their
podcast and their their their ego thing that they do on YouTube. I can't
sit through their stuff. Have you guys taken a look at any more of
their alleged work on JFK that they were so interested in that they had to
make a presentation at Lancer, which, by the way, I did everything
in my power, regardless of how obnoxious they were, to make their appearance
work because I was the MC and I even ran around got them a table
at the last moment. I was trying to get everything straight and set for
them and all that good stuff, accommodate them as best I could as part
of the team running the event there, you know, and didn't feel as
though that respect was being repaid back to the event or myself or anybody else.
But nonetheless, I attempted to be a good host of sorts, a
good master of ceremonies, as was my job that day. But I'm curious
and any other evaluations, thank you, but any other evaluations about their presentation
or other podcasts they've done. I mean, have they given us anything good
or have they given us just a bunch of crap? I mean, Proudy
was a scientologist and he was nuts. No, he wasn't nuts, but
he was a scientologist. Was Proudy a miss represented character? Has he been
over dramatized as somebody of importance that maybe he wasn't. Yeah, yeah,
he was, and the guy who actually does the kind of job that Proudy
describes doing. And I'm not saying that he wasn't a liaison and he wasn't
somebody who was, you know, working under some of the things that he
describes and so on and so forth. But as per usual, when somebody's
celebrity grows, so does their importance and their stories evolve. And I think
that happened to Fletcher Proudy as he aged. That is my words. My
idea is about Fletcher Proudy. But I mean, have they done a presentation
about Proudy that was good or anything else you know of good? They've published,
as to my knowledge, nothing regarding being jfk assassination in any type of
research form. As you well know, their topic was AI Oswald, Thank
you that AI could solve the case. I was not at that presentation.
I skipped it and went to Deal Plaza with Doug Campbell. Doug Campbell and
Monica Eminez Perez, which was the best decision of my life. And so
I can't speak to their presentation. I heard it was more of a Q
and A and they had their own little posses after that, and they were
very disrespectful, and I don't think they contributed anything substantial or useful to anything
regarding this case. Fair enough, look and and in here I go,
I gotta do the Devil's advocate thing because it's my show, and that's what
I do. I would say that, you know, the use of an
AI program to apt to sort through the actual evidence might be of interest.
It might be an interesting idea. It might be something that would get us
to sort through a whole bunch of stuff, like collating all those documents that
I told you the bureaucracy was way too bloated to deal with, like turning
around and matching these things together and coming up with composites that would reveal certain
things in the documentation, come up with answers to various aspects of the case.
Very much. So, I think this could be a useful thing and
a useful idea. But I think I think you would be right if that
AI program had context. You need to study this case for years and years
and years. To get the context. You might read a document five years
ago and then read it again yesterday and pick out some tidbit that you would
have never known five years ago. I don't think. I think there could
be some advantages to it, but I don't think it could solve the case.
I don't think the documents exist for AI to do it, and I
don't think it has the context necessary to do it. Well. Look again,
something that is a force multiplier I think could be of interest and definitely
get us to certain resolutions about some things and come up with some clarity regarding
certain stuff. And it's not just about feeding documents into it, although part
of that context would be based on what it is you decide to feed into
it and what it is you decide not to feed into it. But there's
possibilities here. I mean. So I'm just saying it's not a bad idea
to think, how can we again adapt a new technology to the old case.
I think it's not a bad idea, but you know, trying to
figure out what these guys have actually contributed and basically understanding that they utilized an
event which was meant to focus on a case of interest, not necessarily a
particular author, a particular ego, a particular group of people, or anything
like that. I think these guys used it as a you know, a
public appearance, an event for them for their podcast. And I don't know
what to say except that you're right, and they now are doing their own
private events. So them and their minions. You know, they have like
almost one hundred I think one hundred eight thousand followers on YouTube, probably more
on other platforms. If you think one percent of those go to those events.
They don't need to interact with the research community because they know they can't
you know, conversate with them, they can't debate critically with them. So
they're gonna do their own thing, and they're going to live in their their
own little world, and they're going to tell their own stories emphasis on America's
untold stories. And Robert is a great storyteller, and I give him credit
for getting some people involved or interested in the jfk assassination. I think there
are positives to what they have done, and I think a lot of what
they say is true, but significant part isn't. And that's the part,
the sensationalism part where they sensationalize, sensationalize certain aspects for clicks, reviews for
money, and obviously Rob I Carmine you we are very much research and document
based, so that is the difference. Yeah. Look, and as per
usual credit where credits do? They're doing pretty well as far as it is,
you know, uh, making a YouTube channel work for them on their
behalf, and I wish them all the best of luck, but I think
they're better off doing their own thing and not trying to, you know,
go into the fray that is the research community, which has problems of its
own and doesn't need this. So, you know, much as I appreciated
their their appearance and their you know seeming seeming attempt to raise awareness for the
conference and uh, you know, a very serious issue and all that,
what can I say? I I would say that the people that take them
seriously, well, you know what that's on you? What can I tell
you? You know, look, I make mistakes and whatnot, But my
efforts are not about pushing my own name out there. They're not about,
you know, raising awareness for a general story that needs to be told without
trying to find the best way to certain obscured evidence and things like that when
it comes to any of the things that I discuss on this show, I
try and get at the things that maybe you're not hearing elsewhere. But but
I always go after that which I think is based best in the reality,
not necessarily the official story, not necessarily the junk food that is the media,
and definitely not the strangeness. That was much better focused and did feature
some interesting people, you know, like the Who Killed JFK podcast? But
and and it sounds like, you know, we've now devolved into criticizing other
podcasters. No, it's about the information they're putting out. What is the
value of the information America's untold stories put out? If you can find the
value in it, do me a favor, write to me info atochelly dot
com. Show it to me. I don't see it. But then again,
with the Rob Reiner thing, it's a it's a whole composite of just
wow, static and stuff. And you've just been riding and that. So
anyway, Carmine, is there anything that we should close on here or should
we com you know, conclude this episode of JFK myths? Uh, if
you don't mind, I'll burn through these three assassins how about that, Joe.
We can put that to bed and never have to visit Rob. What
do you say? We burned through the three assassins and uh and and finish
up with the Rob Reiners section. Again, this is not about them personally
or anything like that. Although you know, you guys might take it personal
with the Loan gun Man, uh, the Loan Gunman podcast, you might
take it very seriously uh and personally, but I don't. It's just I
think they're just out there for a different purpose. And uh, you know
what, God bless you, ma'am. What can I say? No?
And and and we don't. But then when they told us to go f
ourselves, we you know, you know Rob uh on my nose, Rob,
I have a similar personality to Rob. And we weren't undressing their comment
their content. We were talking about how funny it was that they said liberty,
lobbity, and then they told us to go for ourselves. Then we
went off on them for their obvious bs. You know, we knew what
they were from the beginning, which was just a storytelling podcast. They Grobert
says he's been researching for fifty years and very well apparently you know, look,
you can do one piece thing's wrong forever, and that doesn't necessarily mean
that lends any credence to what you say. Yeah, I mean, look,
I know somebody personally that's been driving for about fifty years, and quite
honestly, they've been in so many accidents I've lost count. It doesn't mean
they did it well for the past fifty years, but they have survived.
So it is what it is. And I still can't remember which one of
them is the comedian, but anyway, it is what it is. Okay,
go ahead, Carmela, So if we're ready. Indeed, so we
left off at Rmarcia the first one, Yeah, Herminio. Well, I'm
just so happy that I was able to find his real first name, which
is Sandalio. They don't even call the guy by his name. But anyway,
getting back to it, So the next claimed assassin's military figure, Lieutenant
Colonel Jack Cannon. Dick Russell states while he was undertaking a book, Richard
case Nagel would tell him quote Cannon was part of the CIA unit that reported
to Willoughby, and he indicated that Canon was directly involved in the assassination of
JFK. Beyond some largely unproven claims the podcast offers nothing regarding canon or precisely
would make him a viable assassin. So since the podcast series has again failed
to provide us with background, I decided to find out information and more about
this figure offered. Joseph Jack Young Cannon was born in mid nineteen fourteen,
and his mother's German origin allowed him to learn her native language. This detail
proved of later used during his World War II enlistment with the United States and
military. According to one source, he quote served in Borneo and Manila during
World War II as an explosives expert and became one of the first Americans to
enter Tokyo after the war, arriving in September nineteen forty five as a member
of the four hundred and eleventh Counterintelligence Corps see see. Cannon is credited with
using explosives to quote open the safe at the German embassy, where he discovered
documents that showed the Nestorious Sorga spir ring was still in operation. Richard Sorga
was a member of the press who had also been creating Soviet spirings for gathering
intelligence prior to nineteen twenty five. In multiple nations. Sorga was used in
a ring of agents and postwar Japan as well, until he was apprehended by
the Japanese and executed amidst nineteen forty one, but elements of his operation survived
until they're discovery by Canon years later. When he presented the documents to superiors
in G two, he was given command of his own agents to seek out
further enemies in Japan. Quote originally known as Z Unit, It was created
in nineteen forty six, along with other groups by G two Intelligence Wing of
the General Headquarters under Major General Charles A. Willoughby. Z Unit was formed
to combat the progress of communist forces abroad and the increased demonstration of Quote leftist
groups within Japan. Lieutenant Colonel Jack Cannon used Army Intelligences Z Unit, headquartered
in Tokyo, to conduct intelligence operations with Japan, North Korea, and Soviet
areas. According to the CIA, this group became known as the Quote Cannon
Agency, and one media source notes the Cannon Agency was a black operation group
that dates back to the early days of the occupation of Japan by US military
forces. Cannon recruited more than two dozen agents that he would train to undertake
quote secret operations against the Soviet Union and communist sympathizers in Japan. We pause
for one second. This is interesting. I don't understand. You know,
there's more to go and I'll finish it quickly, but there's so much,
like even about Garcia's well, there was so much interesting background that might have
actually given some weight to some of the things they said, but they never
bothered. Well, look, they just threw these names out and those are
the guys. That's our best educated guests. And they're doing it in approximately
half hour chunks, except for the bonus episodes and the introduction. You know,
because I looked over, I seimmed and I couldn't sit through this podcast.
I gotta tell you, even though it's an average of a half hour
each episode, I couldn't sit through it because it was such a mess and
it hurt. But it made me want to find out more about the people
they claimed so that I could disprove it. Right. But they even had
these ten and fifteen minute bonuses, and I'm like, oh, it just
it was so much and I'm not they had good material. They didn't.
I mean, if they just would have a little bit of work anyway,
a little bit of work. All they would have had to do is had
Solidad O'Brien or somebody sit there and go ahead, different voice, even if
Brian Er didn't want to read it, right, have somebody do a read
of and for background information and if completely different voice drops in, you know,
sort of like a documentary film where you have different voices come on and
it shifts around. And I think but I think they were also concerned about
losing people's interest here with the way they designed this, cause I think it's
anywhere from twenty five to thirty eight minutes is the average. Yeah, they
were not trying to cater to people want the deep dove, right, So
but anyway, go go ahead. That's why I think the backgrounds were not
included. But you're right, just a little, I mean a little,
because you're what I'm about to go into is like Bond villain esque. Kevin's
interesting. I mean, he didn't do it, probably nothing to do with
whatsoever based on what they've claimed. Yeah, but he's an interesting figure,
an interesting character they should explore right now, Joe, don't you think that
even when you're bringing up somebody that you're not about to add into the legitimate
plot it is of interest to say, let's tell you who the hell this
guy is. I mean, don't you think that would have been a great
way to go about it and give some of these you know, more I
don't know, expansive and informative details. What do you think, Joe?
Of course I do. And Jack Cannon is a very interesting figure. He
apparently was involved in Cuban activities back until nineteen sixty one, based on a
document that Rob found but and apparently had some connection to Santiago's disappearance in nineteen
sixty four or capture that's of it or were and they covered the on their
last quick hits, but it Yes, you have to provide context, you
have to provide some sources to be taken seriously. But that wasn't the goal.
The goal was to sell it, just like the other one, exact
exactly. Just tell a good story, and that was the goal and that's
what they did. And just note to the listener, I have uncredited voice
reads that that people have asked me to do for some of these other podcasts.
I'm not going to say which ones or anything, but you can find
it out there where I've turned around and I've read somebody's background bio dropped it
in for somebody else on other podcasts. Okay, so I know it's possible,
and it doesn't make your time run too bad if you give me a
minute or two to do what Carmine's doing right here, Philly. Yeah,
we just consolidate, you know, the most important points and right four or
five interesting points of this is why this guy could be an operator of some
type, whether you believe him to be or not. And what's ironic is
is that as I'll finish this off, you'll see that Kennon actually would have
been a much better mastermind type than he would have ever been in an assassin.
I don't think he did either. I don't think he was connected whatsoever.
But I think that a figure like him, kind of like when I
talk about John Henry Hill, the one that I traced fifteen minutes away from
Daily Plaza just before, a figure like that in the mold of what we're
looking for. So anyway, you're talking about the guy who was pissed at
Kennedy and then turned around and bought a gun that day. That guy,
yep, and then walked down the streets of Dallas. This is a guy
gun with a gun in his hands on the streets of Dallas moments before.
Yeah, finished lunch with his wife twenty minutes before the assassination, and then
was no one knew where he went after, which have been a person of
interest to Jess poof goes away on a hunting trip. Yeah, well he
was a millionaire too, but anyways, Okay, go ahead. So the
group's headquarters in Japan was called the Hongo House, a large estate with a
reported seventeen thousand acre premises that was comprised of multiple buildings that included a mansion,
a quote forty four room Japanese style house, and billiard house. Cannon
was a noted firearms officionado, according to one former agent, and could recite
the specifications of many firearms. Quote. Decorated the immense estates gardens with empty
cans, bottles, and even light bulbs. He would conduct daily target practice
quote, often firing from his desk with the gold plated pistol he always carried.
He spent most of his time undertaking intelligence operations, repeated combat with local
gangs, and developing his pistol expertise. Well certainly, this colorful personality often
practiced with the pistol. None of the information regards rifle expertise or constant practice
of larger weapons. But it, like I said, it's almost a bond
Esk villain that he's got a gold plated gun he always carries around and he's
always shooting things from his desk in a mansion. Why not yeah, Okay.
So the Cannon group carried arms, made arrests, and carried out interrogations.
They also reportedly conducted kidnappings, used torture, and operated safehouses that spanned
across Japan. Among Cannon's successes was the infiltration of the quote newly established government
of the DPRK Democratic People's Republic of Korea in North Korea in mid nineteen forty
eight. Using criminal informants, Cannon would learn that North Korea was quote manufacturing
heroin to flood the Tokyo Yokohama area with it. Cannon Agency interpreter Victor Matsui
noted the goal of the DPRK was to sell the drugs in Japan and provide
those resources to Japan's Communist Party. A more insidious connected goal of this effort
by North Korea was to quote turn as many American soldiers into possible heroin addicts
as possible and to render them useless for the upcoming battle they expect in the
future clashes between communist aligned nations of the United States. Attempting to neutralize this
effort, Canon would direct his agents to impersonate a Yakuza Japanese criminal gang and
deal with the North Koreans to capture as much of the heroin sent for distribution
as possible. While this did temporarily negate the attempts of the DPRK, eventually
the ruse was detected and with no large growth in American military drug users emerged.
This prompted the North Koreans to make contacts with genuine Yakuza gangs inside Japan
and set up a network for distributing their illicit products, and the Canon Agency
reacted by violent attacks on such groups, aiding North Koreans. During one gunfight
with Yakuza gangs, Canon himself was injured after being shot in the leg.
The Canon Agency would quickly be shut down by the authority of the Central Intelligence
Agency, who assumed operational control of their projects in the fifties. Canon during
nineteen fifty two was transferred by request to Fort Hood and Following his later retirement,
would eventually invent new types of firearms ammunition. While attempting to perfect the
glacier safety slug and building a gun in his McClean, Texas home, Canon
would accidentally discharge two rounds into his chest and died from the wounds. Regarding
I'm sorry, well, yeah, I just you know, I'm thinking to
myself, this is very interesting detail, a whole lot of stuff that we
missed, and uh, there's the end of his life. I think we
can move on to the next guy and get into you know, kind of
kind of tie a bow on this, because we're about two and a half
hours in. It's a little longer than the other ones, and I think
would to be continued obviously, but I don't want to, you know,
go way too point. I know we can took you on the other stuff,
but I'm gonna be able to knock out these right now, these because
when you'll see so good. So regarding the Canon allegation, I would know
the other lack of credibility of Degale's statements based upon past claims and no offered
evidence. Further, since he had no access to CIA files groups of personnel
in years before the assassination, Migul could not have any knowledge of a special
compartmentalized group operating in that period with Cannon. I additionally would have mentioned that
Canon appeared years prior in an interview with Russell conducted with Gerald Heming, another
questionable source of JFK information, in which Heming claims that Cannon is a mafia
related figure well certainly in Japan. Cannon and his agents during the forties and
early fifties would impersonate in these criminal sources. There's no proven relationship between him
and the US mafia. The supposed idea appears to be that a man nearly
fifty years old with an old leg, injury, no proven practice, a
demonstrable motive, or being present is one of the assassins. Similar to the
Garcia claim, this has no proof but relies upon endorsements of men found to
have been wrong repeatedly. The third assassin named was Jean Sautra. He is
a quite infamous terrorist that attempted to engage with US officials to seek the overthrow
of France's government under Charles de Gaulle. After being rebuffed by American leaders.
He would later claim that he was in Dallas and was quote expelled from the
US at Fort Worth or Dallas forty eight hours after the assassination. Yet the
basis of this story is merely South himself, and it rests upon the belief
of French officials, but has no evidence to support it. If one trusts
Sautra's word, what is one to think when he subsequently claimed to the press
later that he possessed no connection to the assassination. Additionally, I noted sautra
associate Lawrence Alderson would claim the French criminal was involved with the JFK assassination,
but this was after he told the FBI earlier that to his knowledge, Sautra
was not in the United States during that period. These purported ideas rely upon
the shifting words of a man that no evidence proves as present in the US
of the day of the assassination. Motivations for his tale could have related to
seeking to project greater power to those who spurned him, or authority for himself
in the OS, but in the end, the French connection, when compared
to several documents, is quite deceptive. Finally, Charles de Colletti, he
was a notorious Chicago hitman and a forcer for my boss am Giancana and this
series is just one of men over the years attempting to place him a daily
plaza. When I was inspecting the claims of mythmaker James Files in a past
article, I came across quite useful information regarding Nicoletti. FBI documents from the
period before and following the assassination of President Kennedy would challenge suppositions of his guilt
in this matter. Similar to Johnny Rosselli and other high ranking mafia figures,
Nicoletti was under Federal Bureau of Investigation surveillance due to his association as sam Di
Stefano. A week before JFK died, Nicoletti and his associate were under investigation
for the murder of Leo Foreman, a suspected FBI inforemant Foreman's body was discovered
less than a week before the assassination, and Nicoletti is last observed in Chicago
by official informants. Nicoletti is obviously busy with his criminal enterprises within Chicago and
under official surveillance during the proportions of this period. It's highly improbable he could
have somehow contrived a role in the assassination then rushed to Dallas unseen by anyone
days prior. As some might claim. Once again, we are faced with
an infamous person that has been attributed a role in these events, but these
allegations lack any evidence or basic proof that he was even in the state of
Texas that day. Ultimately, if we count all the people named in the
podcast that supposedly had a foreknowledge of the plot, we have Charles Willoughby,
William E. Harvey E. Howard Hunt, Robert Plumley, Johnny Rosselli,
Jack Cannon, Charles Nicoletti, Jean Sautra, Richard Miguel Hermenio Garcia, Maurice
Bishop. At least eleven people. One would assume that Nicolette and Rosselli were
needed in order from would have needed an order from a higher ranky mafioso,
or would have been used by a handler, and that would add to the
growing list of supposed conspirators, agents, and assassins. Remember, those are
just the people they said were on the ground. That's not the conspirators,
that's not handlers. So just add to that total. But there's no need
to add to the list because that would contend it already contains unnecessary people such
as Negel, plumble Hunt, Nicoletti, Roselli, and Sautra, who we
know are elsewhere or have proven of being consistent. Garcia, Bishop and Canon
rest upon the gal and Escalante, which both have believed in false leads,
created false stories, and provide no evidence to support their ideas. William Harvey
and or Willoughby have been the source of conspiracy ideas by multiple offers, but
again we venture into recycled speculations without evidence. Harvey at least is certainly a
figure in the mold of someone that could be involved, but anyone could be
involved. In the end, the answer Reiner provides us as to who killed
GfK is his best guess. There's no foundation of demonstrable facts, and you've
just been rined. Yeah, that was the moment. There we go,
So you know, it is what it is. And again when you just
sit back for a second and try to place Nicoletti together with you know,
the French guy alongside of the Cuban guy alongside how in the hell do you
even pull this composite together? You know, it's it's much like the weirdest
of people that that that seem to think that they have this definite idea about
you know, uh, well sam Gi and Kanna, you know, Salgi
and Kanna took you know, Salvatore was his real first name. But the
point is they they they they say he took over the mafia during this particular
year in Chicago, and therefore blah blah blah blah blah, and this links
to Nicoletti, and this lynks to guess what James files, uh, you
know, so on and so forth. Look, if you eliminate even the
bad pieces of evidence, you have giant holes here where it's almost impossible to
tie people together. It's like assuming and it's just I've seen this before with
you know, with the LBJ idea. Right, It's like, well,
he was corrupt, Yes, indeed, corruption is also not a murderer,
first of all. But let's just say he was a murder. And that's
what I think people don't understand, is that he was a criminal. He
might have even been likely responsible for murders, just not the murder. We're
interested. There's the problem. It's not about, you know, was he
a bad guy. It's not about is you know, Nicoletti capable of killing
people? Sure he is. Oh yeah, they're all villains and yeah,
the men we talked about earlier are all villains and murderers, but that doesn't
mean they kill JFK, especially when most of them are on the other side
of the continents. Sometimes there you go, So you got to you gotta
use some logic. You got to put people you know, at least not
somewhere else at the time. Okay, if you can definitively place them elsewhere,
then they can't physically be their shooters. And this is the trouble,
over and over again. If you don't dig into this and actually do the
research and track these things down, and it's not easy, but if you
don't, you're going to end up with the mythology. You're going to end
up with, Well, maybe the Zabruterer film was faked and therefore the limo
driver shot him, And if the limo driver didn't shot him, maybe the
guy behind him with the AR fifteen shot him in the head back accidentally.
If you know, you end up with those things seeming plausible because why you
don't know the actual evidence. If you did, you'd know that these things
are disqualified on the face of the claim to begin with. So anyway,
with that, I appreciate you guys taking the time. Joe, I want
to get your overall impressions of this for a minute before we close out and
let everybody know where they can find The Loan Gunman. I'm going to give
links, any links you can send me afterwards, I'll add to the show
notes and all that, but any links you want to give me, I'll
definitely distribute them to the audience as well. But Joe, your final thoughts
on this JFK Mits episode, Well, I thought it was great and I'm
very happy to be a part of it and to join you guys. We
could be We can be found at The Loan Gunman podcast guests on almost every
podcast platform. We do live shows every week. Now we have taken our
show live. We've been interacting with a lot of the listeners and we're very
excited. We have some fun plans and fun research plan for twenty twenty four.
I am talking. I won't give it away with the namesake of a
very important person related to Marina, her lawyer's son, and that kind of
ties back to the whole Martin thing. But we have a lot of interesting
things we're looking to do. We're trying to move things forward. We're not
tied to any theory. We are open minded, we are open to new
facts and in the end, we're researchers and not storytellers. We may not
be perfect, god knows I'm not, but I appreciate you guys having me
on Carmine. It's been a pleasure and I have a lot more myths to
debunk for future episodes. Well definitely can't wait to hear those. And also
quick shout out to Rob Clark and Doug Campbell quick hits. Also as a
podcast, I think it's available on the same stream that same streams out there
that The Lone Gunman is and you guys also have a YouTube channel you do,
I think live youtubes every so often, but they'll be links to all
that in the show description Carmine, outside of your books and of course tpaak
dot com. What are your final thoughts for tonight. I know we didn't
get to everything, but I think we did a pretty good job demolishing at
least one subset of myths that has been recently introduced into the stream, so
to speak, and a lot more work to do. We're gonna have to
do many more of these episodes. My friend. I hope so, And
yeah, no, I appreciate everything that Joe said and introduced us to,
and I'm looking forward to future episodes and of course Mike and if people want
to check me out, Chuck us at it before. But it's teapot dot
com, tp aak dot com and I've finally edited a donate button after twenty
people told me over ten years. So if you'd like to feel free,
I'm not gonna promote that too much. I mean, I am not one
of the aforementioned two members of that overly promoting show. No, but look
that you referred to. But every once in a while, you know,
I might say something, but it does help. There are costs that I'm
sure Joe and Chuck both know that are associated with running everything. So every
every donation help, whether it's big or small, even if people just want
to listen. I've, you know, received a lot of support over the
years, and I appreciate people coming out and sending messages, you know,
and you know, I know Chuck does too, and so does Joe and
Rob. But yeah, I hope we did a we did a good service
to the people tonight. I hope the audience enjoyed it, and I think
we knocked it down rather effectively. No a this set anyway, this subset
of myths, so to speak. But I mean there's a lot more work
to do, like I said, and yeah, absolutely, Look you can
support the loan Gunman, teapok dot com, uh, the o'celli effect we
have. Some of us have donate buttons, some of us have other ways.
But you know what, even if you just share the information, you
put it out on social media, you tell friends. Uh, all of
these things are important and it expands our efforts to continue to explore not only
this topic. But you know, there's been a lot of focus on it,
and I've I've recently refocused on the jfk assassination. Some people might not
be pleased with that, but this is the way I'm going. I'm really
sick and tired of the general American politics and I'm still gonna cover it,
but not as much because I'd rather get at something that, even though it's
messy and contentious, you know, seems I don't know, it just seems
like this is where I need to be focusing at the moment. So that's
what I'm doing. That's what Carmine does. That's what Joe and Rob do,
and of course again shout out to Doug Doug Campbell, the Dallas Action,
the Quick Hits, and The Loan Gunman. Those are podcasts I would
say, you go look at Loan Gunman, Loan gun Man. Yeah podcast,
go ahead and check out. I have to have fun with this,
guys, I really do. But I appreciate all you guys for tap the
top loan past out there. Sure why not? You've just been right,
you know. And we continue to shout out to those that need to be
shouted out too, and appreciate your support. Absolutely. Jeff been righted and
that too, so uh for Mike Swanson who was with us only in the
first hour tonight, Carlin Savastano and Joe Borelli Joe Scooter Brelli, which I
won't tell you why we're calling him Scooter, but there's a good reason for
it anyway. Yeah, no matter who you are,