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We're back with another edition of the
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emili Kashinski,

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culture editor here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the show

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at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download
your podcasts, and you can subscribe

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to the premium version of our website
over at the Federalist dot com as well.

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Today we are joined by Michael Barone. Michael Baron is a senior political

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analyst for The Washington Examiner and a
Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

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He's also the author of the new
book Mental Maps of the Founders, How

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geographic imagination guided America's revolutionary leadership.
Michael, thank you so much for joining

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us. Well, it's good to
be with you. Thank you for having

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me. We assign your work to
our young reporters when they go out and

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do campaign reporting, so it's a
real pleasure to talk to you. Michael.

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Oh goodness, that's a big responsibility. But it's important. It's so

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important, it's so helpful. But
in this book, I'm really curious actually,

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just as to how it came to
be. I know that you're very

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interested in geography. But how did
you decide to sort of put this together

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and the concept that this book is
kind of addressing. Well, my friend,

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the great reporter and Reagan biographer Luke
Cannon said, if you want to

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really learn, they said to me
once, if you want to really learn

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about a subject, write a book
about it. And I wanted to as

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I was looking back for a long
career of writing about American politics and about

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history from time to time, I
wanted to learn more about the founding fathers

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and abousitive way that they were thinking
about what they did, and so I

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decided to write a book about them. And I decided to write about a

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subject that apparently, according to the
great historian of the Revolution and early Republic,

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Gordon Wood, nobody else has done, which is their geographic orientation.

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I've always been a math bog guy. Grew up on one of those Midwestern

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squares that was devolved out of a
square township. That design was done by

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Thomas Jefferson in the seventeen eighties.
Are adapted from that, and I learned

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north, southeast and west before I
learned right and left. And I've always

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been geographically oriented, and so I
took a look at the Founders, not

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doing original archive of research, but
at the wonderful biographies and analyzes that have

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been written by great academic historians and
great non academic history writers about the Founders.

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And I've put together what is,
in effect these six essays that make

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up by both mental maps of the
Founders, taking a look at their at

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their geographic orientation, how they envisaged
the new Republic, how they envisaged that

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the Seaboard colonies would come together in
the American Revolution, and what kind of

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a republic would they make after the
revolution. These were things that were by

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no means obvious. If you look
at the maps that were drawn in the

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colonial period, they were pretty accurate
renditions of the Seaboard area. But once

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you get inland from the Atlantic coast, they get more and more imaginative or

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less descriptive. They were looking at
an unknown areas, and they were looking

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at an expanse of land, an
enormous expanse of land going west from the

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Appalachian Mountains, which they didn't really
know whether or not it would be part

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of the new country. And so
I wanted to write about that, and

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I think in the course of it. I picked up about three different things

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that struck me as very interesting.
One is that the success and the shape,

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the successful shape of the enterprise of
the revolting against British colonialism and then

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setting up a new republic was contingent
on a lot of things happening. It

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wasn't inevitable. It was the product
of many very talented and visionary people,

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but it wasn't inevitable. Contingency played
an important role. The second thing is

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that the founders had very much an
appreciation of cultural variety. You know,

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we've heard it said in recent years
that America has just now become a diverse

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country, just in the last few
years. The fact is that it has

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always been a cultural diverse country,
as described in the Great Book by the

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historian David Hackett Fisher Albion Seat,
where he describes the four different cultural folk

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ways that brought settlers brought over from
different parts of the British Isles to the

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North American colonies. The founders knew
about that. They couldn't read David Hackett

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Fisher, but they knew what he
was talking about, and so they set

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up a republic that would have room
for cultural variety. That had room for

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a free exercise of religion in James
Mattt, the Young James Madison's felicitous praise.

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And the third thing that struck me
as I was going through these biographies

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reading more about the Founders trying to
understand their thinking, is that the American

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Revolution really sparked and set in motion
the movement against slavery. There hadn't really

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been a anti slavery movement in the
North American colonies or among really European cultures

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that wanted to condemn and outlaws slavery
where it existed. Suddenly in the seventeen

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eighties, you see the legislatures in
Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Rhode Island.

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You see the courts in Massachusetts and
New Hampshire. You see the Independent Republic

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of Vermont, ultimately our fourteenth state, declaring that they want to see the

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abolition of slavery, the gradual abolition
in most of those cases, but nonetheless

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moving away from slavery. You see
George Washington deciding to free his slaves.

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You see Benjamin Franklin, who who
had had slaves in Pennsylvania in his earlier

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career, turn against slavery. And
that's an important part of the American story

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that I think is not sufficiently understood, and so I try to bring those

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things forward in this book on the
geographic orientation of six of the important founding

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fathers. What's your sense of how
aware these founding fathers, these six founding

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fathers, and maybe even more broadly, how aware were they of these kind

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of mental maps and these sort of
salience of the geographic differences. Well,

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I think they were. They were
trying to inform their fellow citizens of the

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extent of the colonies. You know, if you take Benjamin Franklin, for

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example, in the seventeen fifties,
well before the American Revolution, when we're

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facing a potential colonial war, World
War really between Britain and France. Franklin,

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in one of his publications runs a
political one of the first political cartoons,

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showing a snake sliced up into different
segments, with different segments labeled by

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the abbreviations for the North American colonies
and the tagline the line the headline on

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the cartoon is join or die.
He's making a case that the British colonies,

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which were set up by different proprietors, by different enterprises, by Calvinists

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and New England Anglicans in Virginia,
Catholic and Maryland Quakers in Pennsylvania, and

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whose economic ties were primarily with each
of them with the British Isles rather than

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with each other. He's saying,
no, these colonies are a unit.

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There should be a unit. They
should act as a unit. He puts

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forward this all many plan of union
at a conference with the Iroquois Indians.

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He says, if the Indians can
do this, uses the term savages,

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which of course with what he used
today. If they can have an Iroquois

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federation of multiple tribes as they did, we can have a federation of the

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different colonies. So he was imagining
something that most of the residents, most

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of the active people in the colonies
in America, and they were politically active

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because they had their own legislative bodies, elective legislatures, that that they were

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possibly a unit. So, you
know, the the colonists were exploring.

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When George Washington, as a young
man, as a teenager, was sent

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west to do surveying work for Lord
Fairfax, the proprietor of this vast area

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of northern Virginia between Chesapeake Bay and
the Appalachian Mountains. One of his guides

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was a map that was drawn up
by two men named who had gone out

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surveying in advance of Washington, named
Joshua Fry and Peter Jefferson. Peter Jefferson

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at that time had an eight year
old son named Thomas, who later became

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a person of considerable importance. But
the the imagination there Peter Jefferson's math as

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you get to the Appalachian chains,
gets less and less accurate as you go

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west. But they in Washington in
effect fills in the blanks with his expeditions

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for surveying for Lord Fairfax and then
going forward for the House of Burgesses at

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the command of King George the Second
to tell the brit of the French not

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to establish forts and trading posts in
the forks of the Ohio, the area

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where the Mongongahela and Allegheny Rivers come
back to form the Ohio River, the

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junction that's now at the heart of
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So he was filling

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in the men of North America,
for his fellow colonists, his fellow Virginians,

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and ultimately for the British crown at
that time. In a way that

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was not known before. The Washed
Out on Wall Street podcast Chris Markowski.

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Every day Chris helps unpack the connection
between politics and the economy and how it

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affects your wallet. Even if you've
got to raise last year, you're still

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going backwards. Prices have come down, but they are not lower than they

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were last year. If you hear
that violent crime is down six percent,

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it's still twenty five percent higher than
it was in twenty nineteen. Don't get

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hit by the spin zone. Whether
it's happening in DC or down on Wall

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00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,000
Street, it's affecting you financially.
Be informed. Check out the Watchdout on

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Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get

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00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:33,480
your podcasts. That's so fascinating.
I was going to actually specifically ask you

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about Virginia, not just because I'm
in DC right now, I'm very aware

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of Virginia, but because it plays
such a huge role in the founding as

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you described in the book, What
is maybe specific to Virginia or what sort

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of lessons or influence did Virginia,
particularly on a geographic level, have on

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the founding. Well, Virginia was
the largest of the colonies in terms of

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population of European descendant people. It
was probably the largest initially of indigenous population

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of Indians, Native Americans, whatever
you want to term you want to use,

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whose numbers were vastly reduced by diseases
to which they had no immunities,

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but we don't have accurate figures on
that. It was the richest in terms

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of the tobacco wealth of the planters
and so forth. And it was also

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as the move towards an American Revolution
came into being. It was a tovital

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importance because the initial rebellion against the
British colonials was centered in Massachusetts and the

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New England colonies that had their own
particular cultural folk ways founded by Puritan Calvinists

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in seventeenth century without very many other
people immigrants of other origins coming there.

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Virginia joined them in supporting the American
Revolution, and the leading people of Virginia

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represented in the House of Burgesses,
which was an elective body. He was

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supportive, and it symbolized when the
Second Continental Congress is meeting in seventeen seventy

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five, John Adams, delegate from
Massachusetts, gets up and says, we

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need to we need to appoint a
general to be at the head of our

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continental army. They were thinking big
continentally at that stage, even though they

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were talking about an army that was
operating mainly in Massachusetts, and he said,

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we really need to have He said
to himself, we really need to

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have somebody from Virginia because it's this
major colony supporting us. But we need

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to have it to recognize the importance
of Virginia. And he nominated a young

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man forty three years old who came
in wearing a blue and buff uniform of

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the Virginia Militia, a man named
George Washington, and it was approved unanimously

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by the Continental Congress to be the
commander. So that was Virginia becomes a

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very important part of the rebellion,
and the fact that it supports the revolution

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supports the cause of independence. Britain
is absolutely pivotal to the character of the

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United States as it developed. We
one can imagine that the British generally succeeded

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in quelling the rebellion, but not
in New England, that Massachusetts, Connecticut,

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Rhode Island would have become an independent
country by itself just in that one

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what is now northeast corner of the
United States, but that the rest would

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remain British colonies. What would the
world have looked like, How would that

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have developed? We don't know the
answers to that, but it would have

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been very different from the America that
came into being. And so Virginia was

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absolutely pivotal and its boundaries were not
well recognized. Remember that the Virginia House

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of Burgesses since George Washington into the
young George Washington up to the forks of

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the Ohio and to the north,
up towards Lake Erie to warn the French

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up to get out of there.
He does so unsuccessfully initially, but they

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weren't that. That's not in Virginia
as we know Virginia today. But there

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was an expansive idea Virginia. And
you read Thomas Jefferson's book, the one

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book that he actually wrote, notes
on Virginia, and he's got a very

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expansive definition of Virginia as well.
Interestingly, he has a different geographical vision

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that George Washington does. He omits
New England, which George Washington came to

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know well from his military exploits there
in seventeen seventy five and seventeen seventy six

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successful exploits and expelling the British,
and as president when he came on his

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ceremonial visits to New England in seventeen
eighty nine, in seventeen ninety and so

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forth, and spoke out, among
other things, at the Truro Synagogue in

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Newport, Rhode Island, talking about
how America, in America, Jews were

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to be recognized, not as tolerated
as some subordinate people, but in fact

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as equal citizens for you to live
in peace under their vine and fig tree,

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the biblical phrase, and that was
But Jefferson's Virginia goes farther west.

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He's looking. He goes over the
Mississippi River, long before the United States

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obtained that territory through the Louisiana purchase
in eighteen oh three. He even tells

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you how far it is from Santa
Fe to Mexico City. He never traveled

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much farther west than the Blue Ridge
Mountains in the Alleghany Mountain in Virginia himself.

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But he had a vision of Virginia
and the nation that extended far to

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the west. And I actually even
want to keep pulling out that thread.

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This as they're founding the country.
They have this idea of the vast expanse

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heading west, that there is all
of this land to be settled, and

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that's different than you know, a
lot of Europe that was obviously already settled

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and where their parents, grandparents and
some of them had come from. How

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does that factor in as they're also
kind of designing a new form of government,

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as they're actually trying to create a
constitutional republic in some completely profoundly new

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ways, how does this idea that
they also have a vast expanse of land

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to work with potentially factor in?
Well, they have you know, they

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have a variety of tasks facing them. Number one is how do you relate

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to the indigenous people, the Indians
and so forth. George Washington's initial trips

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had guided by Indians who impact behaved
and some one instance throughout it dismally he

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saw one of his indianatwise take a
French ambassador and basically bury an axe in

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the man's head and killed the man, which became a cause eleb and sparked

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really the French and Indian War North
America, the Seven Years War as it

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was worldwide. In seventeen fifty four
fifty six, you had the questions of

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where settlement to go. George Washington
had a vision of the Potomac as the

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great avenue into the interior the United
States. He sponsored the Chesapeake and Ohio

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Canal. He had a he had
a whole vision following his own path there

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in his military exploits and also in
his land by He buys his first acreage

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in the Shenandoah Valley when he's believed
nineteen years old, for money that he's

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made doing survey for Lord Fairfax.
Jefferson's thinking about the vast west. He

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draws up a number of plans.
When he was a delegate to the Confederation

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Congress of the seventeen eighties, he
has plans. He sets up the idea

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of the squared townships. You can
see that when you fly across country on

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a cloud misstay, you can look
down and see Jeffersonian squares all over the

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landscape of the Midwest, of some
of the South, and going out as

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far and west as Orange County in
Los Angeles County, California. Jefferson had

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these ideas of setting up a somewhat
deferential society of yeoman farmers farther farther west.

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Founders had a different idea Alexander Hamilton, whom we haven't mentioned yet,

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who was born and raised in the
West Indies in ninety percent slave territories,

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and who left Saint Croix at the
age of before he was twenty years old,

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at the age of about eighteen,
and never returned, never wanted to

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return, wanted to become a North
American. His geographic vision was a vision

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00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:38,640
of trade roots across the ocean,
of the invisible trade routes in which great

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00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:45,440
amounts of commerce were going by.
And he created a financial system that facilitated

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the trade by creating the Bank of
the United States, by encouraging the creation

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of banks, which provided us a
source of money in a society that had

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very little gold and silver in it, which people basically traded by barter or

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to a very considerable extent. Hamilton
had this other geographic vision. It's different

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from Jefferson's, and they were political
adversaries as members of George Washington's cabinet,

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and going beyond that into the seventeen
nineties and the election of eighteen hundred,

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they were bitter adversaries as time went
on. But both of those visions turned

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out to be part to to be
part of what became the United States,

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to create features, whether it's the
creation of townships, square mile townships with

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a square mile made up of square
mile things, one of them set aside

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for education, which was one of
Thomas Jefferson's ideas, or to set up

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00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:08,440
the situation of encouraging trade and international
trade and a commercial economy, as Alexander's

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Hamilton successfully did as Secretary of the
Treasury, the youngest person ever to hold

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that job. And what about the
differences between urban areas and rural areas and

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how that? I mean, you
Boston very different than Philadelphia, very different

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than other cities New York, and
also of course very different than the rural

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areas and places in Virginia. How
do those differences shape the way they were

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00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,000
looking at this project at the time. Well, remember, if you're talking

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about colonial America, if you're talking
about the early Republic, you're talking about

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a situation in which the vast majority
of people did not live in what we

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would call cities. And I think
what your question really points up is the

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cultural variety. Such cities, as
they had were commercial and cultural centers,

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00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,319
but they were quite differently focused.
I mean, you know, Boston had

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been set up by the Calvinists,
by the Puritan religions, and became a

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center of that line of thought.
Ultimately, it becomes an area that moves

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00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:32,079
fairly early towards opposition to slavery.
The Massachusetts Constitution of seventeen eighty is interpreted

246
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:38,599
by the courts there for bad slavery
in Massachusetts starting in seventeen eighty, So

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00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:47,839
you're looking at one of the earliest
abolitions of slavery in Western society. New

248
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,319
York was very different. New York
was a polygot place. It was made.

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It was originally New Amsterdam. You
had Dutch there, you had in

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00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,720
line with the Dutch tradition of tolerance, you had Jews there. You had

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00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:07,680
people from different parts of the West
Indies, you had people from different parts

252
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:14,319
of New York. In the Revolution, New York was basically, though New

253
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,880
York historians don't like to put it
this way, new York it was a

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00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:25,200
Tory stronghold. It was an area
where there was opposition to the Revolution which

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00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:32,559
wanted to remain. Hey, New
York was a center that tolerated cultural diversity,

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00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,319
that was involved in commerce worldwide.
It wasn't too concerned about rules.

257
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:44,680
It liked the idea that the being
in the British Empire and trading on those

258
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:49,400
terms, and wasn't too interested in
this. And George Washington spends much of

259
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:57,440
his time as Commander in chief Continental
Army trying to regain New York, which

260
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he was chased out of by British
troops and fortunate to get most of his

261
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,880
army out in the final months of
seventeen seventy six. So New York was

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00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,000
very different. Philadelphia, of course, had the Quaker heritage, had the

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situation of the who was owned a
colonial period by the Penn family, by

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the descendants of William Penn, the
original proprietor that founded the colony in sixteen

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00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:33,039
eighty two. Benjamin Franklin, the
great Man of Philadelphia, who became very

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00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,839
rich as a journalist and postmaster,
very knowledgeable about the other colonies in a

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00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,359
way that most of the colonists were
not, who became a world famous scientist,

268
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:52,599
the person who really discovers and characterizes
electricity and how it works, his

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00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:56,759
experiments with the kite and other things. He describes the Gulf Stream. Nobody

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00:27:56,799 --> 00:28:04,359
had really understand good the ocean currents
before Franklin, just by making observations on

271
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:11,599
his transatlantic voyages, figures it out. He's the great man. He's opposed

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to both the penn proprietors and to
the Quakers on the grounds that the Quakers

273
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:22,200
are not protecting the frontier and the
pens aren't paying local taxes. And he

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00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:29,480
becomes, you know, the agent
for the Pennsylvania colony over in London.

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But those of each of those cultural
each of those cities was the center of

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00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,599
a sort of culture that was quite
different. And Franklin is the one guy

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00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,799
in the colonial period who figures out
how to appeal to all the different cultures.

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00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:56,880
He was starting in circus seventeen thirty. He's putting out the Poor Richard's

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00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,359
Almanac, which has circulation and colonies
up and down the coast and even into

280
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:11,119
the West Indies. He's founding a
series of printers in people that he licenses

281
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:21,519
in the other colonies. He's sponsoring
the touring of the evangelist preacher for Britain,

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00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,440
George Whitefield. Becomes a friend of
Whitefield, even though it wasn't particularly

283
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,400
religious himself. Up and down the
colonies and what's called the First Great Awakening

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of the seventeen forties. Franklin understands
that the colonies have different cultural varieties,

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and he's creating in many ways a
common culture between them. Even before he's

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00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,680
thinking, or anyone is thinking about
an American revolution, about creating a United

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States, he's creating a colony,
and he's thinking of the colonies as a

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00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:10,039
unit that is geographical and orientation anticipates
the founding of this country in a way

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00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:15,079
that's really uncanny. Hey, y'all, this is Sarah from the Sarah Carter

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00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,400
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Loves b E E T S dot
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307
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book and thinking about how it might
relate to certain things that are swirling challenges

308
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,279
that are swirling around the United States
today, are there any particular lessons you

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00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:45,279
think stand out? As you know, especially this question of geography, rural,

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00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:52,480
urban, all of that continues to
really be central to some of the

311
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:56,200
problems people will observe in the United
States today. Are there any lessons that

312
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,359
stood out for you as you're writing
this book. Well, one lesson is

313
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:06,240
the US and about cultural variety.
Diversity is that the fashionable term has been

314
00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:10,440
in recent years and people say,
we're suddenly diverse for the first time.

315
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:19,319
Well, we've been diverse even before
we were a wee. And that's something

316
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:27,240
that the founders realized. And one
of the things the genius that emerges from

317
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,680
the Constitutional Convention, from the revolution
itself, from the political struggle severely in

318
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:37,119
the public is the idea that you
can have a limited government with guaranteed freedoms

319
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:44,839
and that this is the kind of
government that and you have also local government,

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00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,759
state governments that have responsibilities as well. You have a certain amount of

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00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:57,359
decentralization of republic. You're pitting different
regions against different regions and an attempt to

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00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:04,440
protect the liberties of all and at
the same time to have a coherent and

323
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,640
competent federal government. And Madison deals
with this, and I have a chapter

324
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,680
on James Madison, in particular in
his contributions to the Federalist Papers. It

325
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:23,440
is something that he's a profound thinker
about. You have Alexander Hamilton thinking about

326
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:30,079
the same issues taking a somewhat different
approach. I talk about that in my

327
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:38,000
chapter on Hamilton. So dealing with
cultural variety is something that, of course,

328
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,039
you know, with something that the
founders give us some guidance, guidance

329
00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:51,720
that I think sometimes we tend to
forget when we talk about trying to suppress

330
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:58,200
cultural variety and have one guiding culture. For some people, it's the culture

331
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:05,480
of the universities, which has been
showing itself to be pretty rotten completely to

332
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:13,000
govern the whole country. There's a
reason that federalism was a good idea for

333
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:19,320
a culturally various, culturally diverse country. The other thing I think about is

334
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:30,400
contingency and how the founders were not
inevitable. You know, there's some Americans

335
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:37,280
today when you talk about American exceptionalism, when you say that this country has

336
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,159
a special heritage, they think,
well, you're just bragging. It's just

337
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,440
because it's your own place and you're
thoughtlessly going on. I don't think that's

338
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:51,400
true at all. I think that, in fact, when we reflect on

339
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:58,840
American history and think of our own
small place in it, we are the

340
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:06,519
lucky beneficiary of American exceptionalism, of
the way that this republic was created,

341
00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:15,119
governed in which there was space for
people of all different of many many different

342
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:22,440
kinds, which has had enormous successes
and everything from the economy to civil liberties

343
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,239
and a whole variety of areas.
We stand on the shoulders of giants.

344
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:35,039
We are the beneficiaries. When we
boast about our country or about its positive

345
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:37,840
aspects, we're not boasting, for
the most part, about things that we

346
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,679
created ourselves. We're boasting about things
for which we are the lucky beneficiaries and

347
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,679
in which we are at the current
trustees. And perhaps we have not done

348
00:35:49,880 --> 00:36:00,280
as good a job as nurturing and
furthering the positive things in our country as

349
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:06,840
we might have been doing. So, you know, I think about these

350
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,280
things are unusual. I mean,
I think about the character George Washington.

351
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,519
I mean, one of the things
that's amazing about George Washington is that he's

352
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:22,840
a military commander. He relinquishes power, he resigns his commission and Christmas even

353
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:29,639
at seventeen eighty three in Annapolis,
Maryland, and turns it back over to

354
00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:35,760
the Congress which was meeting there.
He's almost moved to tears. Everybody in

355
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,079
the crowd has almost moved to tears. He's going back to his farm,

356
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,159
as he called it, his estate, which was actually a pretty big one,

357
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:52,280
and he's going back to private life, relinquishing military power. And he

358
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:58,559
had, through many frustrating years to
observe the primacy of civilian control and the

359
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,760
control of the Congress, which wasn't
very helpful, but paying the troops and

360
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,800
so forth. Of course, he
relinquishes power again when he does not seek

361
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:14,760
a third term as president the seventeen
ninety six but he issues his farewell address

362
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,119
and the other legacy, of course
he gives us. And I think it

363
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:22,880
was a deliberate attempt to try to
influence the society in a way that he

364
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,719
would not have even thought of doing
as a young man, and that's by

365
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,400
freeing his slaves and his wife's slaves
in his will, of providing for their

366
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:39,039
sustenance and income for the rest of
their lives. And I think he was

367
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:46,800
sending a message to the future of
America there of what he wanted this country

368
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:54,079
to be. We were lucky to
have such an individual who had that steally

369
00:37:54,159 --> 00:38:01,800
resolved not to take great power,
but to observe of legality and to observe

370
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:08,000
in limited power, and to exercise
it as best he could within those limits.

371
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:13,760
It wasn't inevitable he got his military
committee. You know, he was

372
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:20,039
appointed the head of the Military Army
in seventeen seventy five, nominated by John

373
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:23,800
Adams, in large part because he
was one of the few colonials that had

374
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:30,639
had genuine military experience. Where does
that come from, Well, it comes

375
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:34,519
from the fact that the House of
Burgesses, when it's looking for somebody to

376
00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:40,199
send a message to the French in
seventeen fifty to fifty three fifty four,

377
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,159
says, who's been out on the
frontier, And they have this young man

378
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:52,320
who's related to some important people and
was an older brother, that's a prominent

379
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:59,039
person of the Potomac River Valley who's
been doing surveying for Lauren Fairfax, who

380
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:02,119
is not scar He does not start
out as a rich man. He starts

381
00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:12,440
off as an accomplished horseman and trained
surveyor who undertakes this surveying for Lord Fairfax

382
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:19,519
and puts his earnings into buying land
in the Chandoah Valley. You know,

383
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:29,679
Lord Fairfax's hold on this community was
pretty He was based on a grant of

384
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:35,599
land by King Charles the Second in
sixteen forty nine, which, in fact,

385
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,760
King Charles was then an exile.
His father had been executed. He

386
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,760
was granting powers that he had no
practical effect over. He was just trying

387
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,639
to raise money by signing documents to
some people. Lord Fairfax litigates this for

388
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,119
eleven years in the Privy Council in
seventeen thirties and early forties. If he

389
00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:59,280
hadn't won that case, he wouldn't
have hired George Washington to do the surveying.

390
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,119
Washington wouldn't have gone out to the
wilderness, they wouldn't have hired him

391
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:08,719
as the commander in chief. We
were lucky. America was lucky. I

392
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:16,360
think the world was lucky to have
this individual created there. I say at

393
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:23,000
the end of my book that there
are those who think that you know that

394
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:31,320
a beneficent deity has been on the
lookout for the United States. I don't

395
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,559
share that view. My own personal
religious views do not encompass that. But

396
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:46,119
wait, I think there's some strong
evidence for in the contingencies that give us

397
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:52,840
the founding fathers. And so I
think that from the fact that you have

398
00:40:52,960 --> 00:41:00,719
a genius like Benjamin Franklin, world
famous, helping to create the America,

399
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:07,119
that you have a personal, personal
character and endurance of George Washington as the

400
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:09,800
commander of the Continental Army. And
then it's the first president of the United

401
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,360
States that you have the coincidence that
the second and third Presidents, John Adams

402
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:22,039
and Thomas Jefferson, who had been
on the committee writing drafting the Declaration of

403
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:28,159
Independence, Adams deferring to Jefferson as
the better writer, both die on the

404
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:35,360
fiftieth anniversary of the fourth of July
seventeen seventy six that was taken in the

405
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,679
nineteenth century as design that God was
looking out for America. And I think

406
00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:45,920
it's easy to understand when you reflect
on those things, why a religious people

407
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might have believed that, that's for
sure. Well, Michael Baron, before

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I let you run, I just
want to ask what it is about maps,

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you know, where your interest in
maps comes from, and what you

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00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:04,239
love about studying them. Well,
you know, some people love maps and

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have a good geographic sense of where
they are. Now other people don't.

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And I think our map orientation is
perhaps deteriorating because of the GPS, and

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you know, these little gizmos that
we have to tell us to turn left

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on take exit fifty four of nine
three ninety five or whatever it is,

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and we don't really know very much
about the terrain or anything else, as

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earlier people did. As animals have
maps in their heads that we only beginning

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to fully understand. You know,
Salmon go back to the the river in

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which they respawn. Birds fly thousands
of miles to very specific locations. There's

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something about knowing where you are that's
important. And one of the things that

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you know in American history is that
we have this republic that exists across the

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geographic expanse of North America and out
into the northeast and the northwest corner of

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00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,239
the continent, also the Pacific Ocean. You know, if you look at

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00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,719
the mass of the world and the
welter the historian Walter MacDougall said in sixteen

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00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:37,480
hundred, and then look at it
in twenty twenty twenty three, four hundred

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00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:44,119
years later, you know, in
sixteen hundred you already have great masses of

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00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:50,239
people in China, probably thirty forty
percent of the world's population, large population

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00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:57,360
in South Asia, in India.
You have people in Western Europe who are

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00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:04,800
sort of at the cutting edge of
navigation and creating military forces and exploring around

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00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:12,639
the world. You have people living
in less economic advanced circumstances in Africa and

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00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:22,679
so forth, and you have large
numbers of people living in in articulate societies

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00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:30,159
centered in Mexico, centered and what
is now Peru. And so for one

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00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:34,800
thing you don't have. You only
have scattered indigenous peoples, not in very

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00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,239
large numbers in what is now North
America. The big difference in four hundred

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00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:45,880
years is the creation of the United
States, of the emergence of English speaking

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00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:52,400
North America as a major center of
economy, major center culture, major center

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00:44:52,840 --> 00:45:01,360
of military power and competence in the
world. Those of us who are the

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00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:08,280
beneficiaries, the heirs, perhaps the
trustees of this today, I think it's

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00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:16,639
always helpful to learn more about this
and to take a look at how this

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00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:30,559
not inevitable march English speaking people across
North America took place, and so forth.

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00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,519
So these are things that I've been
trying to understand that are all my

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life. I'm still working on it. And this book, Mental Maps of

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00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:44,800
the Founders, is an attempt to
shedow light on some of the extraordinary people

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00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:52,239
who, operating from maps that were
by no means complete or entirely accurate,

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00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:58,199
helped to create a republic that became
the greatest country in the world so fascinating.

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00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:04,159
The book again is called Mental Maps
Founders How geographic imagination guided America's revolutionary

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00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,400
leadership. It is out on November
twenty eighth. Michael Baron, thank you

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00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,480
so very much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. You've

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00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:15,000
been listening to another edition of The
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jashinski,

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00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:17,360
culture editor here at the Federalist.
We'll be back soon with more. Until

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00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:29,199
then, be lovers of freedom and
anxious for the fray, heard the fame

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00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:38,320
by Serison, and then it faded
away