WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.960 You know, boss, we talk about lap serendipity, don't we. Uh 2 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:11.000 yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing, and if ten years hasn't 3 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:14.880 proved it to you, then then well you're wrong. Yeah yeah, that's 4 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:19.559 the evidence says. And we had this notion to cover January twenty third, 5 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:23.879 nineteen eighty four, forty years since Hulkgan won his first WWF championship, weeks 6 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:27.559 ago, months ago, even Yeah, yeah, and what do we know. 7 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:33.119 We're approached by a wonderful author here who's joining us now on the podcast 8 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:36.039 by the name of Brad Belucian, who's written a book that will be coming 9 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.119 out April second, called The six Pack on the Road in Search of WrestleMania. 10 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:45.119 Massive iron cheek fan as a kid and channeled that passion into a road 11 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:51.399 trip where he sat down and interviewed in fascinating detail a lot of the players 12 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:54.840 that were key to the WWF in nineteen eighty four, and many folks who 13 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:59.159 are actually on this Madison Square Garden card. Amazing at the least of which, 14 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:03.240 of course, is the iron Cheek who on the Road in Search of 15 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.760 Wrestlmania. That sounds like most wrestling fanily. Yeah, yeah, we'll be 16 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.400 on the road in search of WrestleMania quite soon. It's exactly correct, and 17 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.280 just you know, that short lived, that tantalizing little taste that the Iron 18 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:19.159 Sheet god of being the top guy in the business, but just transitional and 19 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:23.040 as the short lived biographer. As Brad explains in the Book of the Iron 20 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.480 Cheek, he knows him quite well and spent a lot of time with the 21 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.120 man. So we're privileged to have Brad Buluccian joining us. Thanks for being 22 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.760 here, man, Jack and JP, thanks for having me. Really appreciated. 23 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:36.359 So this is a great piece of business. We've gotten to look at 24 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:40.519 the advanced copy and just orient our listeners right off the top. You wrote 25 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.480 a book called The Wax Pack, which was about opening a package of baseball 26 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:47.280 cards in nineteen eighty six and resolving to find out what happened to everybody who 27 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.239 happened to be in that random pack of cards. It was a hit book. 28 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.120 This is sort of the same, a little less memoir, a little 29 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:57.239 more pursuing. You know, in person interviews, I suppose tell us about 30 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.599 what set you on this mission and what you did to accomplish it. Yeah, 31 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.719 someone asked me recently, you know, as they always do, like 32 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:07.360 what are your books about? And I you know, there's the easy answer, 33 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.080 right, I guess book wrestling. The other book was about baseball. 34 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.800 But the truth is really that I I've managed to get away now with writing 35 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.280 books about the things that I loved when I was six years old. It's 36 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.439 just kind of childhood passions that most people grow out of, I guess, 37 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:29.759 but not us, right, And I'm glad that I haven't, because it's 38 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.080 it's been. It's a dream when your job and your and your passion overlap. 39 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:38.120 And so the wax pack. I grew up collecting baseball cards growing up 40 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.400 in Rhode Island, and I always, I think, I always wanted to 41 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:46.400 know whether it's baseball players or nineteen eighties WWF wrestlers, Like who are these 42 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.719 people? Right? Like we know them as these larger than life as the 43 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.560 cliche goes over the top characters or baseball players. You know, they seem 44 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:59.280 like these gods on the field, but they're people, right they you know, 45 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:00.680 they go to the back from just like all of us do. So 46 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:07.560 I wanted to understand them now as an adult, like kind of humanize them, 47 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.439 figure out who they are, get to really know them and that's that 48 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.280 was the main motivation for both of these books, and for the six pack 49 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:22.639 it was kind of twofold one was revisiting this crazy Iron Cheek story from my 50 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.199 youth. I guess you could say, at forty three, I'm no longer 51 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:30.479 young, and I the first line of the book is the iron I disagree 52 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.840 with that. I disagree with that as a as an almost forty three year 53 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.319 old myself. All right, all right, So the first line of the 54 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.520 book is the Iron Chek just threatened to kill me. And that's set in 55 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.240 two thousand and five, and that's the backstory. It's the prologue for the 56 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:54.159 book where I had gotten to know him personally and had we had we're working 57 00:03:54.199 --> 00:04:00.000 on a that's basically a biography of him, and it went completely sideway. 58 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.120 And then flash you know, then I go into the y and all that 59 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.759 in the book. But and then flash forward seventeen years, twenty twenty two, 60 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:12.680 and I get on the road looking for a reunion with him, but 61 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:16.839 also not just about him, but who were the other people that wrestled on 62 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.920 the card when he won the championship. And then of course a month later, 63 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:27.240 when Hogan comes in and tracking down other guys that were you know, 64 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.920 six guys that wrestled on that December card plus Hulk plus Vince McMahon and and 65 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:39.920 it's kind of the road story of that journey, but also their backstories and 66 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:45.879 kind of a reckoning with myth versus reality. I like to say, the 67 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:51.439 book's about identity, It's about myth versus reality, It's about who these people 68 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:57.199 really are. Sounds like a certain podcast, I know, I think I've 69 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:01.079 heard of that particular podcast. Yeah, that's a stream that resonates around these 70 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.000 parts, Brad, So let's get right at it. You mentioned December. 71 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:08.839 So the wrestlers you tracked down were on the December nineteen eighty three show where 72 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.959 Iron Cheek de thrones Bob Beckland to become champ. At the time, perhaps 73 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.879 deep in the recesses of Vince Junior's mind, it was clear that the plan 74 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.040 was to transition to Hogan. The plan was always, you know, I 75 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.879 think pretty well understood by the wrestling intelligentsia such as it existed in nineteen eighty 76 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.120 three that the Iron Cheek was not going to be any kind of long term 77 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.560 champion, but who he was going to, you know, hand the mandl 78 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.959 Off to was the subject of some mystery because Hogan himself didn't come in until 79 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.800 the last week of eighty three on the Saint Louis taping, and within a 80 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:38.319 month he's winning the title in Madison Square Gardens. So let's go right at 81 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.120 it, iron cheek. What did you gather in the time that you spent 82 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:46.600 with him, which is considerable and actually unique about his feelings and thoughts about 83 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:50.240 winning the title for such a fleeting amount of time, culminating in him doing 84 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.160 the honors here January twenty third, nineteen eighty four. Yeah's and let's let's 85 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.240 dissect this a little bit. So Chic comes into the WWA in like September 86 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.680 of eighty three, right out of Georgia. He's been down in Georgia for 87 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:08.360 a while. This is his second run with the WWF. You he came 88 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:11.839 in in seventy nine, right right at the height of the hostage crisis under 89 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:17.040 the great Hossein Arab name. Now he's back. He always had a good 90 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:23.439 relationship with Vince Senior. He always he liked the WWF. It was even 91 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:28.600 then seen as the big time. And as far as I from my research, 92 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:33.360 again, I spent many many hours in many different periods of time with 93 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:38.839 the Iron Cheek, with Kasro Vasiri, and he he didn't know when he 94 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.839 was being brought back that he was going to become champion. In fact, 95 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.879 a lot of I mean, Vince Senior, you know, is sort of 96 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.519 in the background, is making his moves right. He's first, he tries 97 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:56.000 to buy out Vince Gania, sorry Vern Gania, Vern refuses. Then he 98 00:06:56.040 --> 00:07:00.240 says, okay, well I'm gonna I'm gonna get Hulkgan and he has his 99 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:08.680 sort of secret meeting with Hulk in Minneapolis in late nineteen eighty three and lays 100 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:13.800 the groundwork for Hulk coming in. But you know, back then, you 101 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:15.800 have to remember, you know, there's no Internet, there's no Dave Meltzer 102 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:19.160 is like twenty one years old and just starting out, so there's not like 103 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:25.199 the whole Dirt Cheek community, and even the wrestlers didn't really know. The 104 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:29.399 wrestling community didn't really know that Vince Junior had bought the company in June of 105 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:33.000 eighty two. That was done in a hotel room in New York, very 106 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:39.439 quietly. So Vince Senior is effectively still running the show, at least as 107 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.360 far as most people know. He's doing the booking at Madison Square Garden. 108 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.639 You know, Vincent, the two Vince's are kind of, I think clashing 109 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:51.360 a little bit over who's who's in charge. Bill Edie talked to me a 110 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:56.680 lot about that because he was brought in and over the years people had speculated, 111 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.240 you know, was Bill Edy supposed to be the transitional champion? Yeah, 112 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:03.360 he says he was talked to about it, and yeah, and you 113 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.839 know, he tells me that that basically Vince Senior said, no, we're 114 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.519 not going to do that because if you if you're if you're a champion for 115 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:11.920 only a month, it's going to hurt you. And so he's like, 116 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:16.199 I don't want to do that to you. Right. So I don't think 117 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.399 there was ever It never went that far where Bill Edie was going to be 118 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:28.639 the guy but chic, you know, he never he he didn't know for 119 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.159 sure until I mean, he had a pretty good idea in the in the 120 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:37.279 weeks leading up to the December twenty sixth card that he was going to win 121 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.000 the belt because and the way we know that is that he told his wife 122 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:43.080 Carol to come to the event, which she never did. She had never 123 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.320 been to Madison Square Garden and all of a sudden, he's like insistent that 124 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.559 you need to be there at this show, and you know, then you 125 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.879 have the Bob Backlin factor, right. And originally Bob Becklin there was going 126 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.559 to be a chapter in the book about him, and I actually went to 127 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.720 Princeton, Minnesota. I met with all of his high school classmates. I 128 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:07.399 spent many hours with his biographer, Rob Miller. You know, Bob allegedly, 129 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:13.240 from what I can tell, is really suffering from CTE and it is 130 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.600 not really of good mind. So I knew I wasn't going to be able 131 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.240 to really talk to him, and I just didn't. I didn't feel like 132 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.519 that chapter worked. But based on what Rob, his biographer, shared with 133 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:30.159 me, you know, Bob thought he was going to get the belt back 134 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.759 at the January twenty third card because Vince, I think it was Vince Junior 135 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:37.720 even had told him, you know, yeah, you know, we're gonna 136 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.559 do a rematch. But all the whole time, you know, Vince Junior 137 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:48.759 knew that he was bringing in Hulk, right and after so chic you know, 138 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.639 Backland comes up with the finish in the December match so he can save 139 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:58.840 face to do the towel throwing with Arnold Scoland. You know, Backland is 140 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.519 okay dropping the belt because they have they had to wrestled back in the AWA 141 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.000 in the mid seventies. They knew each other, they liked each other, 142 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:11.159 they were both amateurs. Chic liked Sheik appreciated Backland so much that he gave 143 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.559 him a set of his Persian clubs. They're called meals me e l sh 144 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.600 at that match that Backland had kept for years. And I think in one 145 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:28.360 of those WWE Hidden Treasures documentaries they go to Backland's house in Glastonbury, Connecticut, 146 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.759 and they actually were able to get get to see and I think Acchoir 147 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:41.279 that pair of Persian clubs. Wow. And so so Backland loses to cause 148 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.120 to Chic. But then right after, you know, you know, December 149 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.960 twenty seventh, Hulk Cogan shows up at a at a TV taping in Saint 150 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:56.000 Louis at the Chase Hotel, and then it's obvious that you know, Backland 151 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.720 realizes that, you know, he's not going to get They tell him we're 152 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:03.240 not gonna to do the rematch, and I think Backman always felt really betrayed 153 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:07.720 by that, and you know, Chek told me he didn't know how long 154 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.039 he was going to be the champion, Like they weren't. They weren't laying 155 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.720 that out for him. I think he wanted to be champion as long as 156 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.879 he could be. He The thing about Cause is that he really, even 157 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:26.759 though intellectually he knew that pro wrestling is a work, it became almost shoot 158 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.320 like for him because he had that shoot background, and becoming the champion was 159 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.320 a big deal, right. It's like he almost he was able to suspend 160 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.039 his own disbelief to really buy into like, I am the WWF champion and 161 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:45.720 was always and forever super proud of that. I mean so much so that, 162 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.679 as you know, he would just cut promos in his living room basically 163 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.799 with me in two thousand and five talking about how he was like the greatest, 164 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:54.360 you know, he was the WWF champion. And it's you know, 165 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.159 some of that is the fact that, like so many of these guys that 166 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.159 I wrote about, they became their character in real life. You know, 167 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:07.360 that the work became a shoot. And so I think that you know, 168 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.879 Chic wanted to hold the belt, but then he realized, what you know, 169 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.320 Hulk, they were gonna switch it and then there's the whole story about 170 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:20.159 vern Gana threatening to or asking cause to break Hogan's leg, and that whole 171 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.080 things, which I also wrote about in the book. Yeah, yeah, 172 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.440 that's a certainly a wrinkle to it. So do you think do you think 173 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.879 when iron Chek talks about how he should have had a longer run with the 174 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:37.720 belt, that's just him sort of bitterly realizing how much money WWF was going 175 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.639 to go on to make in the transition, and then at the time he 176 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:43.039 didn't really have that much of a hang up about it and knew what the 177 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.200 score was in terms of transitional championship run. I always wondered about that, 178 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.240 is that him sort of you know, the iron cheek the character would be 179 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.159 pissed off about the short run, but the iron cheek character also wouldn't acknowledge 180 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.000 that, you know, the matches were worked and that he did the job, 181 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.960 so to speak. I wonder where you I think the you know, 182 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.320 the retrospective element comes into his regret that the title reign wasn't longer, or 183 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.639 if he wanted a long rain from the beginning. I think very few pro 184 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.679 wrestlers look at the business and right rightfully so especially of the era we're talking 185 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:20.159 about, as in this sort of holistic long term you know what's going to 186 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.720 be best for everyone, you know way, I mean there it was a 187 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:31.440 completely cutthroat world, right, and so I think even if I mean cause 188 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.039 being a longer champion would not have been good for the business in the WWF, 189 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:41.000 which ultimately affects everyone in the WWF because you're all getting paid out of 190 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:43.320 the same pot. So I mean, it was the right call for Hogan 191 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.000 to get the belt in January of eighty four. But yeah, selfishly because 192 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.840 number one, bigger paydays, you know, Kuse wanted to be championed for 193 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:58.080 longer, and number two pride. You know, the guys had a ton 194 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.879 of pride. He was a very prideful man. And again he really loved 195 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.879 being the champion, and so I think, yeah, he would have loved 196 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.080 to have held it for longer. And his family relished the belt too. 197 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.600 I mean, if I took you spoke at link with his wife, who 198 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:15.000 we sort of saw on camera for the first time in the A and E 199 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:20.080 biography that came out in the last batch of shows they did with WWE last 200 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.759 year, and she's fascinating. She's just a Minnesota gal who who met this 201 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.960 guy and just started a family with him. And she was there when he 202 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.000 won the belt from Bob Backland. And I think she told you that she 203 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:35.360 was shocked when he actually got the nod and got the belt. That she's 204 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.879 sitting there at ringside while she knew something was about to happen, because like 205 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.440 you said, she was invited to come along for the first time. She's 206 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.000 she did not expect until that towel hit the ring for Arnold Scoland that her 207 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.399 husband was going to win the belt, right, Yeah, I mean so 208 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.960 much. So in the you know, I write about how like she's like 209 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:56.120 she's popping, right, she's like cheering, she's she's all all happy. 210 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.600 But she's at ring by ringside. So you got to think about this, 211 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.360 this you know, attractive, young blonde woman so excited about the Iron Chic 212 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.919 in nineteen eighty three winning the championship. At a certain point, that's not 213 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.399 good for your own self preservation, right, So I think you know, 214 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.679 she because the fans, the fans were in shock, the fans were livid. 215 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:18.200 I mean, there was no there's no nuance in nineteen eighty three about 216 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.120 the evil Iranian character, right, I mean, this is a straight stereotype, 217 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.120 and the fans, the fans are you know, you got we forget 218 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.200 that in that era. I mean the Iron Sheet told his daughters, don't 219 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.120 tell your friends at school who I am because they might hurt you. You 220 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:37.879 know, people slashed his tires, they put sugar in his gas tank, 221 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.360 they threatened to call it in death threats where he had to be held off 222 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:46.039 of the show. It was no joke to live that character twenty four to 223 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.080 seven. And that's the thing that I mean, imagine if in nineteen eighty 224 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.039 Harrison Ford had to go into the safe way being Han solo, right right, 225 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:58.600 Like, it's just it's just crazy. So yeah, Carol was and 226 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.919 I I can't say enough good things about Carol in terms of like her keeping 227 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:04.879 the family together. She didn't give a shit about wrestling, you know, 228 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.639 she thought it was this weird, gruesome thing. But but she's right, 229 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.960 by the way, Yeah, she loved her husband and she was the one 230 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.480 that kept it all together all those years. That's remarkable. So we have 231 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.919 a situation here where Bob Eckland is kind of, you know, reaching the 232 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.879 expiration of his shelf life, and you know, he's just not obviously not 233 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:30.759 the guy for Vince Junior's vision, and that's taking shape before we can appreciate 234 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.360 necessarily what's happening. She is the in between guy, and he would go 235 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:38.360 on to sort of make a I'm not a career that's the wrong word. 236 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.720 But we know his reputation to the two thousands, you know, bombed High, 237 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:48.200 Howard Stern, other people tweeting for him, people gathering around him and 238 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.840 trying to make him do funny things like a jukebox or something, and he 239 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.480 goes off on Hogan, goes off on Hogan, just totally like scorched earth 240 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:02.639 rhetoric about Hogan the whole time. Do you think his personal animis towards Hogan 241 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.119 that we saw expressed when he was being sort of paraded around like that for 242 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.759 a decade, was true animus against Tulkogan or do you think it was him 243 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:18.240 working? I think it was eighty percent working twenty percent. Shoot, think 244 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.039 think about like, let's say that you have issues with JP, right, 245 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.880 I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure you don't not at all. No, 246 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.319 yes, but if you had issues with JP, but imagine your whole 247 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.920 life and career is about cutting promos and being in a character right, not 248 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:41.079 not not the real Jack, but this exaggerated character Jack. And then you 249 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.400 have issues with JP, and then someone is over and over again putting a 250 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:51.480 microphone in your face and asking you to be entertaining and talk about talk about 251 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.839 JP. You may even if you have a little bit of issue with JP, 252 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.200 you're gonna you're going to exaggerate, You're going to launch into you know, 253 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.640 this over the time criticism of JP. Right, that's kind of what 254 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.440 it's like for the Iron Chic, Like he was pissed at Terry Boleya because 255 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.799 in eighty four when he didn't break his leg, Terry Bolea came back to 256 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.680 the locker room after the match and said, Chiki, baby, I owe 257 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.440 you one. And you have to remember the Iron sheet. Cosro Vasii is 258 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.480 from a small town in Iran, born in the forties, where there's this 259 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.480 thing called javan mardi in Persian culture. It's a Farsi word which basically means 260 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.839 honor, integrity, being a man of your word. And despite all the 261 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:37.039 drugs and all the craziness that muddled kasro Vaziri's brain, you know, you 262 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.160 always are kind of the person you were when you were ten or twelve years 263 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.839 old. And he never really that was always inside of him. And so 264 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:49.400 when Terry Bolea told him, I owe you one, kasro Vaziri believed that. 265 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:53.920 And so years later, when now Cause is coming off his colonel Mustafa 266 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.160 run in nineteen ninety two, he's over. He's fifty years old, his 267 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.799 body is breaking down. He doesn't didn't really save his money well enough, 268 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.920 still addicted to drugs. He needs a job, he can still go a 269 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.960 little bit. He he apparently calls Terry at w CW and looking for a 270 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:18.319 job, and Terry never returns his call. Now I've tried to fact check 271 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.160 this. I didn't get to talk with Terry for the book. And Eric 272 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.440 Bischoff, who's one of his best friends, I asked him a bit about 273 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.920 this. He had no recollection of Cause ever calling the w w CW office 274 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.920 or asking Terry for a job. It doesn't mean it didn't happenwy five years 275 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:41.960 ago. He doesn't remember anything that happened twenty years ago. But but you 276 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.279 know, I think Cause was hurt by that, and so he had beef 277 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.920 with Terry. But again, when you're on Howard Stern and you know, 278 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:53.920 and you know that everyone loves when you go on these these obscenity filled rants. 279 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.720 He's gonna, he's gonna, you know, choose it up. Were 280 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:02.759 you were you there with him for any of those? No, that was 281 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:07.839 after the book fell apart, so okay, okay, part when it became 282 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.960 obvious that Couse was not in a state to be able to work on it, 283 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.519 and that's good. Right after that was when he went on his whole 284 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.440 you know, media blitz of all that. I don't know if we've talked 285 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.279 much about it, JP, I mean, how familiar are you with the 286 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.839 story around Ganya offering money for Chic to break Hogan's leg? No? I 287 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.039 just I always think about who someone else did that? Didn't they someone else? 288 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.440 Didn't Vince have someone to do that, want someone to do that? 289 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.960 Well, there was the offer that Brody was going to end bush WrestleMania one. 290 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:42.039 There was talk that Vince tried to get Harley to not too starcade right 291 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.039 right, right right, It's all part of this, this sort of I 292 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.480 vaguely remember the breaking of the leg because I feel like I feel like we 293 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.480 talked about that when we did the aw A series. Yeah, we also 294 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.119 did Colisseum collection, which includes a Colossum video where Sheic beats Backland and we 295 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.920 talked a lot about the backdrop. Yeah, I wonder Brad about that story, 296 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.599 and of course Greg ganya denies it. His His qualification though, is 297 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.680 always that you know, if it did happen, it doesn't sound like something 298 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:08.079 Burned would do. I didn't know about it and never never told me about 299 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:12.119 it, and he kind of leaves it there. But you know, Sheik 300 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.119 says it like it's sworn fact. Hogan's gone back and forth. Hogan will 301 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.319 go on a podcast now and you know, Joe Rogan and just offer it 302 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.279 as part of his lore, whereas in the past he was on the Michael 303 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.400 Schiavello Show and when he did a sit down and interview with him and he 304 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:27.880 said, that's that's iron Chic, that's his story. I don't know. 305 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.200 And then here Sheik saying that Hulk knew enough about it to say thank you, 306 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:37.599 Sheiky baby afterwards. I think this one could be a case of truth 307 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:40.599 and fiction and one it's sixty forty one way or the other. But I'm 308 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.559 not sure we'll ever know. I think it's true, and I'll tell you 309 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:51.400 why. The two people that had said said consistently their story hasn't changed are 310 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:56.680 Cause and Bob reimis Sergent Slaughter. I don't think Terry Belea knows. I 311 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:00.880 don't think Hogan knows. I think it's the second or third. And I 312 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.839 don't you know, Greg Gania, I don't think he really knows, you 313 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:08.559 know, And I don't really I don't know. Never I've never interviewed Greg 314 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:14.160 Gania about it. But the thing is like that story was making the round 315 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:19.000 way back in the mid eighties, and it's consistently when something when someone doesn't 316 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.920 change, you know. It's like Tony Outlass told me in the book when 317 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.200 he talks about the Bruiser Brodie situation. He's like, because people have questioned 318 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.079 at the veracity of that, and Tony said, look, and I think 319 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.400 Tony told me his mom told him this. Right. If if you're telling 320 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.200 the same story and your story never changes, it's probably true, right. 321 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.319 I mean, it's hard to maintain a lie for all those years if you 322 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.359 know and tell the same story with consistency, And you know, Tony Outlists, 323 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.880 as far as I can tell, has always been consistent about what happened 324 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.160 to Bruiser Brody that day cosro VASII. Since the mid eighties, that story 325 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:59.240 from him has always been consistent, and I don't see the knowing what kusro 326 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.240 Vasia was like in nineteen eighty four, I don't see the motivation really for 327 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.039 him making that up. And part of the story is him going to Sergeant 328 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.279 Slaughter's hotel room a couple of days prior and asking him what he should do. 329 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:17.880 Bob Sargent Slaughter has also always told that story in a consistent basis. 330 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.920 So why would both Bob Riemers lie about that and cos ROBASII? Right? 331 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.920 I mean, are they gonna it's a I'm more of a parsimony fan, 332 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.640 you know, Ockham's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the one that's true 333 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.319 versus a conspiracy theorist. And so I think it's true. That's great, 334 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:41.079 that's great. Did you come down so definitively? Did you have something there? 335 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.119 JP? Sorry no, no, I was just agreeing. Sorry, 336 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.759 no, not at all with Slaughter. He is on the show. I'm 337 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.720 getting some echo guys. Yeah, I hear that. Did you change your 338 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.880 settings? Zea Brad? Okay, no, no, all right, that 339 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.359 was weird. Just one second when I marked that for edit. Well, 340 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:07.200 I hear it again too. All right, that's okay, I think we're 341 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.880 good. Okay, So you mentioned Bob Remis Sargent Slaughter. He's on this 342 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.680 January twenty third, nineteen eighty four card in MSG against Ivan Putski doing all 343 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.079 of his you know, he was a heel still at the time. They 344 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.359 had yet to do the big baby face turn where he stepped up to Iron 345 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.920 Cheek after Sheik lost to Hogan and became, you know, the flag waving 346 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:30.400 guy defending America from the you know, the slander of the things that Iron 347 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.160 Cheek was saying about his proud nation. It's fascinating in the book, you 348 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:37.599 actually make tracks to find where bob Remis is at. You know, his 349 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:42.240 agent keeps him at a distance from people that you know clearly know that he 350 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.240 ca fabe the whole Marine thing and that that came out in recent years. 351 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.039 So that was the first thing that came to my mind when you were saying 352 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.200 that, you know, Bob Remis has never changed a story about Chic. 353 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:57.119 He's also never changed a story about serving in the Marine Corps. Excellent point. 354 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:02.519 So tell me about actually trying to do what I think in somewhere in 355 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:04.119 the recesses of our hearts we kind of wish we could do is just walk 356 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.200 up to the guy and ask him the question you actually had the nuts to 357 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.279 do it. Tell me what happened. Are we talking about when I went 358 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.559 up to Sergeant Slaughter, or well, when you went up to his house? 359 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:17.200 I mean, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, 360 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.160 Bob Remis, Sergeant Slaughter was one of the people that refused to talk 361 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.519 to me for the book. And you know this happened in the wax pac 362 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.799 too, where not all the people I want to interview want to talk to 363 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:32.720 me. So then it's the question as a writer, you know, what 364 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.799 do you do? And my answer is usually I'm going to do whatever I 365 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:41.839 can to try to get the story and talk to somebody, even if it 366 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.799 means some pretty, you know, outlandish things. So I, after having 367 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.960 gone to his hometown in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, found his high school football 368 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:56.240 coach, who's remarkably still alive and doing really well, found one of his 369 00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:00.799 childhood friends, went and tracked down his high scho year books and kind of 370 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:06.839 told his whole backstory as best I could from other reporting. I said, 371 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.839 Okay, well, now I have to go and not literally knock on the 372 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:15.359 guy's door. So I went to Burlington, North Carolina and tried to see 373 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:21.640 if he would be home and hopefully not get arrested. And he ended up 374 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:26.359 not being there, but a couple of things. One I got to I 375 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:29.160 talked to his neighbor for a while, I got to see where he lived, 376 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:30.920 I got to, you know, share that story, and I actually 377 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:34.480 did, you know, talk about serendipity. I did end up face to 378 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.880 face with Bob Remis at the end of the book at the Iron Cheek's funeral, 379 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.880 which was crazy, like he's the one guy. So I spend all 380 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:47.240 this time tracking down these guys. You know, I don't I don't ever 381 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:52.240 get to see Sergeant Slaughter. I've given up by chance. A week after 382 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.319 I finished writing the book, Iron Cheek dies Causuro of Vizieri dies like I 383 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.400 don't you know, I was not expect that. And then I got invited 384 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:07.000 to his private funeral by his daughters and I show up there. The only 385 00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:12.519 person from the wrestling community, I mean, of the actual wrestlers or promoters 386 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.519 who is there is actually Sergeant Slaughter. Bob Remis, so funny how that 387 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.200 worked out. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So that's the that's the 388 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.559 reamis part of it. We also have the Bill I'd part of it. 389 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:27.559 We've mentioned him already, of course, the Future Demolition Acts. He's in 390 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:32.400 his masked Superstar at the time, and as you mentioned, has talked about 391 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.200 over the years and talked to you about the notion that he may have been 392 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:40.799 under consideration for this Backland to Hogan transition at one point. Now he's fascinating 393 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.880 in the book because he comes with a kind of like a history of litigation 394 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.920 against WWF that that really allowed him a glimpse, a unique glimpse perhaps into 395 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:53.640 the ways Vince Junior was changing the way WWF was doing business, you know, 396 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.440 suddenly, and I'd love for you to talk to our listeners about this. 397 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.160 Vince is handing out pieces of paper to the wrestlers asking them to sign 398 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:06.119 away under the guise of a booking agreement, basically every right they could ever 399 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.640 have to their intellectual property and everything else. In Bill id you know, 400 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:11.759 Demolition is in the Hall of Fame for a reason, and it's because he 401 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.160 took Vince to court for years and years and years over who deserves. The 402 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.480 royalty streams from the creation of the idea of demolition. Whether those early contracts 403 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:25.759 were sufficient to sort of claim the dominion that Vince wanted to claim over every 404 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.240 dollar generated by Bill Id for the rest of his natural life. I'm exaggerating 405 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:33.400 a bit, but not much. And so by virtue of those of those 406 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.400 lawsuits, he was able to get access to and put into the public record 407 00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:40.160 copies of some of the contracts and agreements that were being handed out right around 408 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.839 the time we're talking about wherehul Commania starts in the WWF. Can you help 409 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.079 orient our listeners a bit to what Bill Id teaches us about how Vince was 410 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.319 trying to let's say, you know, paper up the deal at WWF. 411 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.839 Sure, let me, I'll circle back to the Let me let me ask 412 00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.200 you guys in the book, so I write about Cogan, Iron Cheek, 413 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:08.079 Tito Santana, Tony Atlas, Sergeant Slaughter, Jose Luis Rivera. I think 414 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:14.200 that's as well, Yeah, Bill bill Edie, Yeah, of those guys, 415 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:19.279 which would you guess is which which do you think did not in their 416 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:25.480 lives really become and kind of in real life turn into their character? Oh 417 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:30.160 boy, I don't know. I mean, Tito didn't have to turn into 418 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.839 a character. I mean, that's him, that's merced Saliz on the mic. 419 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:36.599 And I would say the same for Jose Luis Rrera though he was just 420 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.319 sort of like, yeah, this is fascinating. You went to Puerto Rico 421 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.519 and saw him in his element, and he's working. You know, he's 422 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:45.200 working when you talk to him. I don't know, I would say Tito. 423 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.839 I would say, if I met Tito Santana in person, I'd feel 424 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.319 like, that's the guy who had the intercontinental title, right, And I 425 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:55.759 think that. But I think with Tito, what you have to remember is 426 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:59.880 that in the book I talk about this the whole issue where he discovered he 427 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.680 illegitimate child, right yeah, yeah, his daughter. That's the kind of 428 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.920 thing you mean, then there's nobody in the business that, right. Well, 429 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:10.960 I think when I fell with Tito, I think what was interesting was 430 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:14.839 that he you know, people called it the Tito thing right where he was 431 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:21.000 like this wholesome, never screwed around, you know, totally clean cut family 432 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.799 man, yea. And he prided himself on that. He wrote about it 433 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:29.720 in his book, which was kind of the Tito Santana character like this virtuous 434 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.440 babyface all, you know, all virtuous, good guy. And then you 435 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.799 know, very inconveniently to that, to that storyline, he finds out a 436 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.599 few years ago that he had a daughter and you know, and it's his 437 00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:42.359 family's upset, and it really rocked him to the core that like, oh, 438 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:45.039 actually, I'm human. You know, I'm not Tito Santana. I'm 439 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.279 said Salicice. But I think he even said Salice kind of bought into the 440 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.440 mythology of Tito Santana to some extent, being the exception to the rule. 441 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.880 And what happened was a reminder that everyone's human, right, So I would 442 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.880 say that like Jose Luis is one of them, and the fact that he 443 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:06.440 is one guy that did not become the gimmick, and part of that is 444 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.200 because he was not a star, right, He was basically a jobber. 445 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:15.119 And I think one of the cautionary tales of this whole book, along with 446 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.279 the wax Pack, is the baseball players and the wrestlers that were not the 447 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:21.799 biggest stars are probably the happiest in the long run. You know. The 448 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.759 tortoise and the hair, Oh yeah, totally sure. But the other part 449 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.319 and circling back to your question, I would say Bill Edy is the other 450 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.559 guy. And I think my hypothesis about why Bill Edy never became the mass 451 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.799 superstar, Demolition never became the characters because he was always under a mask, 452 00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:42.559 right, he was always his face was always obscured, so he could go 453 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.200 through his whole life, even at the peak of his fame, and not 454 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:51.720 get recognized, which is a huge difference versus the other guys that had to 455 00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:55.559 kind of play their character all the time. Yeah, so it's interesting. 456 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.680 So Bill Edy was a guy that stood up to Vince, as you were 457 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:05.759 saying, always very independent minded. You know, he had gone to college, 458 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.240 He had a career as a high school history teacher and psychology teacher and 459 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:14.119 coach before he went into wrestling, and he had that to fall back on. 460 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.119 So in the eighties, in the mid eighties, when Vince is starting 461 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:22.480 his expansion, he starts putting these boilerplate contracts in front of the talent, 462 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.559 saying I need you to sign this, basically intimating that you're gonna you're not 463 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:31.119 going to have a job if you don't sign this. And the contract makes 464 00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:36.720 these guys basically pledge, you know, all of their they can't work for 465 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:40.680 anyone else without Vince giving them permission, and even more importantly, they have 466 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:45.920 to give Vince is not on the hook for any zero dollars in merchandising. 467 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:51.200 Literally, in these contracts it says the wrestlers have the right to zero. 468 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:54.160 That's right. That's right. So as an example, I was able to 469 00:32:54.440 --> 00:33:01.000 really pour through the lawsuit that Bill eventually filed in nineteen ninety one against the 470 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:07.920 WWF and Vince. Here's an example. In one quarter of nineteen ninety one, 471 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:13.839 Bill's Demolition Acts action figure sold two hundred and twenty five thousand, nine 472 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:17.359 hundred and twelve units. It's a hell of a lot of demolition acts JP. 473 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.960 How much do you think Billy Edy deserved of that? Okay, the 474 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:27.880 gross the gross revenue to the WWF was eight hundred and ten thousand, nine 475 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:31.000 hundred eighty five dollars and eighty four cents eight hundred and ten grand off one 476 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.599 figure. JP. How much how much does Bill deserve? Well, I 477 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:37.640 mean he wasn't under contract at the time, so deserve anything. That's exactly 478 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.359 right. Brad thoughts, well, I mean even if he was under contract, 479 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.000 he still wouldn't get anything in the contract. They don't have to get 480 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.240 anybody that works. Wow, Wow, the ball the balls to do it 481 00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:52.640 that way. I was one of those people who bought it to I was 482 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:59.000 one of the two hundred whatever thousand, ninety. Out of the generosity of 483 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:05.759 his heart, Vince gives Bill eleven three, which is one point four percent 484 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.000 of his own action figure. You know, we used to joke Brad about 485 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.440 how Vern would take ninety percent. Vince joke six percent. That's right, 486 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.199 Yeah, yeah, Well no, Bill, Billy, he's a smart guy. 487 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:22.400 No wonder he's pissed. Let alone. The most underreported, untold story 488 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:28.079 of all this era is now granted. Vince McMahon was a genius when it 489 00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:34.800 came to being always at the vanguard of the distribution of content in terms of 490 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:39.239 he jumped on the cable wagon, then he jumped on the closed circuit wagon, 491 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:43.400 that he jumped on the pay per view wagon, and when he made 492 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.079 the transition from closed circuit to pay per view around nineteen eighty eight, and 493 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:52.159 for the next several years where he made a killing, and this was the 494 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:57.800 crux of Bill's lawsuit was he did not share, he did not give the 495 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:04.280 talent pay per view revenue or a cut of the pay per view revenue as 496 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.039 those shows were happening. Right, So yes, at WrestleMania six, Bill 497 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:13.559 got a bigger payday for that fighting that match than he would for a regular 498 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.000 house show. But it wasn't like Vince was looking at all the pay per 499 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.880 view receipts and saying, oh, I'm going to give this percentage to this 500 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.360 wrestler. Yeah. Right, So think about how much profit, how much 501 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:29.159 money Vince made by not not sharing those pay per view revenues with the talent. 502 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:38.360 Yeah, it's it's as as Vince Junior modernized the WWF's business infrastructure and 503 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:42.760 made it, you know, a bona fide television business, he did not 504 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:49.039 modernize the way the talent was compensated and contracted like the TV business that he 505 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.800 so desperately wanted to be a part of and accepted into. Yet his talent 506 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:55.119 is working like, you know, sort of like one off basis, sort 507 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:59.360 of like on a blind basis, being cut these checks. And you know, 508 00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.719 you talk about it too, Brad. This is so important to cause 509 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:06.079 into so many others. That first line of LJA and action figures came before 510 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:10.000 I think Vince realized that if he doesn't get really really tight with how much 511 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.440 he's giving these guys, the explosion of revenue that's going to come from all 512 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.440 this licensed merchandise is going to be such that these guys are probably gonna have 513 00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:21.679 enough money to just quit. I mean, it's amazing how much that first 514 00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:25.320 generation of LJN payouts fat and wallets at WWF, and it caused so many 515 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:29.079 talents I think across the country. To look at New York is like, 516 00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:34.719 you absolutely have to go. The influx kind of follows and by the second 517 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.280 line, by the second time those checks are out, they're much smaller, 518 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.559 right right, Yes, Vince, definitely button that up real fast. And 519 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.239 to your point, you know, the other part of the Bill eaed story 520 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:51.840 is that later on he's part of that group lawsuit against the WWE that had 521 00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:54.880 to do with CTE, right, And that's that's a more contemporary issue in 522 00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:00.519 the sense that I mean I was able to track down the law you're from, 523 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.360 the from their side and kind of dig into the details of of the 524 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:13.199 CTE issue, and also the fact that these wrestlers to this day are classified 525 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.280 as independent contractors, which is insane. I don't know how you're an independent 526 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:22.360 contractor when you can only work for one person. Yeah, yeah, well, 527 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.440 JP, what do you think I mean? I I I agree. 528 00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:29.079 I've always thought it's one of the biggest, one of the biggest shams in 529 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:37.199 a business full of shams, and uh uh that they As a performer myself, 530 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:43.480 it's like, you know, all all all we want is you know, 531 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:45.039 all I want is the is the job stability. All I want is 532 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:49.280 to work for a company. And yet here they are and like kind of 533 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.159 have all the benefits that come with working for a company in a way, 534 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.079 you know, like I'd like to be able to be an actor, you 535 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:58.559 know, at a place and be like this is this is it all here? 536 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:00.760 Da da da da. You're you're here for you know, however many 537 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:06.079 years and you're just gonna work. And but this it's like, no, 538 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.800 you get the stability of being under a company, but you also get you're 539 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:16.159 also a private contractor, which is just complete. I don't know how they 540 00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:19.239 get I've always wonder how they get away, but I never understand how they 541 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.840 get away with it. They've they've fought back several challenges to it. You 542 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:23.519 know, in Vince's trial, it comes out the CFO testifies the I R 543 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:27.800 S looked at it and determined that it was kosher. I mean, I 544 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.920 just don't understand how they can be how they can be exclusive to one person 545 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:37.599 and be and be one company and be a private contractor you're a free You're 546 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.440 free to work wherever you want pal but will fire you right in fact, 547 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:45.280 I don't see the problem. There's no problem stand on business, you know, 548 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.400 listen, I mean you know we we we we have we have clauses 549 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.679 in our contracts that dictate exactly how independent you actually are. Sounds right to 550 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:58.440 me, Man, Brad, you do a great job tracking down a couple 551 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:02.679 of guys that were involved with Vince at the very formation of WrestleMania and the 552 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:08.199 television business, going back to when he was leasing the Cape Cod Colisseum and 553 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.360 in fact who came up with the name WrestleMania. Tell me about cracking down 554 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:15.360 that early. I think it was the CFO right that you were able to 555 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.000 define and talk to. It's just awesome stuff. Yeah, that was I 556 00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:22.440 was amazed at how many of these guys that worked in the front office at 557 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.559 the WWF in the mid eighties had not been had not either been approached or 558 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.400 had not talked about, you know, the history before, because there's been 559 00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:36.440 books and projects that have been written about this era. And I was really 560 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:39.199 proud that I was able to talk to Bob McMullen, who was the CFO 561 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:45.400 who basically got the books in order starting in like nineteen eighty three. He 562 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:52.639 was there through through WrestleMania. I I was able to talk to Jim Troy, 563 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:59.760 who was like Vince's sidekick from nineteen eighty one eighty two. People don't 564 00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:05.280 know that Vince his you know, really he got going with promoting hockey in 565 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:10.159 Cape Cod. He was he had the lease on the Cape Cod Coliseum. 566 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:15.760 That was he and Linda were just in the in a small office there. 567 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:21.199 That was their business. Well while Vince Senior was still booking Madison Square Garden 568 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:23.679 and all that. You know, Vince Junior and Linda were just focused on 569 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:29.239 that building and they needed they needed acts to come through. They got they 570 00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:32.480 needed a regular revenue stream, so they were able to get the Cape Cod 571 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:36.880 Buccaneers to play there. And then through that they met Jim Troy, who 572 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:40.480 was a hockey player, and Jim became like a vice president of Titan Sports. 573 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:44.960 He was Vince's running buddy. He was, you know, his sidekick, 574 00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:49.000 and he's the guy that was going out on the road and negotiating a 575 00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:52.880 lot of those TV syndication deals in eighty four, eighty three, eighty four, 576 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:59.440 eighty five to get the WWF exclusively on TV in those markets. So 577 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:01.079 I was able to talk to him. I was able to talk to Nelson 578 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:07.960 Sweglar, who was the president kind of before Kevin done around. You know, 579 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:12.719 he was at the head of TV production and he was there for the 580 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.920 origin of the show TNT and primetime wrestling and all those things in the mid 581 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:21.119 eighties. I was able to talk to Edward Shooty, who was the editor 582 00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:24.880 of WWF magazine, and his predecessor ed Helenski, who was brought in to 583 00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:30.840 start the WWS first proprietary magazine, Tom Emmanuel, who was the publisher of 584 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:37.079 WWF magazine. So it was really great. I actually talked to I don't 585 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.519 know if I put this in the book, but George Scott, who was 586 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:44.320 the main booker who passed away his widow. I talked to Jean Scott, 587 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:50.280 his widow about I'm there. So I think I'm really proud of that that 588 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.960 reporting that I did to really get to those people. And part of that 589 00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:00.559 is also, you know, so in my line of work, you're writing 590 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:06.280 about people and you may or may not get to interview them themselves. I 591 00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:10.119 really try hard to be accurate and truthful and as objective as I can be, 592 00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:16.880 And ultimately, when you come to a final analysis of somebody, you 593 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.360 have to just look at the you know, I'm also a scientist, I'm 594 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.039 a biologist, and you have to look at the weight of the evidence, 595 00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.519 right, And so when you're evaluating someone like Vince McMahon, you know, 596 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.519 it's not enough to just talk to this person or that person. But when 597 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:31.360 you start to talk to all these people that work for the man and you 598 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.880 look at the weight of the evidence about what kind of person was he, 599 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:39.840 what kind of businessman was he? You know, the scale the seesaw tilts 600 00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:44.519 a certain way, right, and you know it's never one hundred percent, 601 00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:45.960 but you get a good idea of who these people were like, what these 602 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:49.800 people were like, and you mentioned, you know, that inner circle that 603 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:53.079 kind of passed quickly from Vince's orbit in those early days when you needed a 604 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:57.039 lot of support and help, and these folks, you know, they were 605 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.000 there for us a couple of years when it all was exploding. Bob McMullin 606 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.800 among them, and he adds a new wrinkle to the lore about where the 607 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.239 name russell Mania came from? Can you tell us about that? Yeah, 608 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:12.679 well, I always from my research, was told that Howard Finkel came up 609 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.280 with it, And Bob McMullen is like, nope, bullshit, it was 610 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:22.159 not. Yes, wow. He said he was in the room in eighty 611 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.960 one holly Hill Lane, which was the WWF's office, which I went and 612 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.119 visited and actually snuck into as part of the recording for the book. It's 613 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:32.639 still there. It's a it's a cool looking building. Saw you know, 614 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:37.400 walk the floor where was Vince's office all that, And Bob was in that 615 00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:40.280 in that building and said they were all in a room. I think George 616 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.079 Scott was there, Vince was there, Linda might have been there, probably 617 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.800 Jim Troy and and they were trying to come up with a name, and 618 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.719 Vince wanted to call it the Colossal tossl Yes, I see no problem with 619 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.639 that name, and George Scott like basically shipped on the name and kind of 620 00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:04.159 Vince was kind of embarrassed apparently, and then it was a guy named Rex 621 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.440 Jones who wasn't able to track down, but who was had a cup of 622 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:13.519 tea withou Tighten Sports back then and was in marketing, and he said, 623 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.559 well, you know, we got Hulkamania, like would makes sense, Let's 624 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.239 do WrestleMania And according to Bob no hesitation, that was one hundred percent the 625 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:27.559 origin of the name. I like that one. You know you mentioned Ockham's 626 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.159 razor and stuff. I think when somebody who's relatively anonymous gets the credit for 627 00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:36.960 something, that's the truth. Right. If somebody who like makes their the 628 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.000 rest of their bones in their life being a visionary or being a lifer like 629 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.039 a Howard Finkle, you have to be a little more suspect. But when 630 00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.519 you hear just this guy, this totally anonymous guy, with such conviction from 631 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.719 an outsider who could care less about who gets the pat on the back, 632 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:52.199 it seems like he cares a little bit about the fact that it's been ascribed 633 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.079 to others. Did you get the sense that Bob McMullen knew that people said 634 00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.760 someone other than Rex gets the credit or do you think he just had an 635 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:01.280 ever and asked the question. I don't think he'd been asked me. I 636 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:05.159 don't think he really he didn't really keep up with all that. I think 637 00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:09.239 he was just, you know, he was I think he was happy to 638 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:14.599 be able to fact check. Yeah, that's absolutely excellent. So we'll leave 639 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:17.199 you with this, because we're here to talk about the Sheikh, of course, 640 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.360 but really about Hulk Hogan as well, because he's the guy who's anointed 641 00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:23.400 and crowned on this night, and wrestling really was never going to be the 642 00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:27.239 same. The WWF definitely was never going to be the same. And you 643 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.800 can feel the gravity of that moment when you go back and watch this, 644 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:34.079 even forty years later. But you did your diligence trying to get in touch 645 00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.159 with the Hulkster. And I'd love, Brad for you to conclude taking us 646 00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.440 through what it's like these days to try to get audience with Hulk Hogan. 647 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:45.800 Well, yeah, it is not easy, because I and I had as 648 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.480 good a shot as you can get. I mean, I had interviewed Brian 649 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:52.639 Blair, good old b Brian Blair in his house, like when I was 650 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.960 in Tampa, who's one of Halt's closest friends now and b Brian Blair went 651 00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.280 to bad for me and texted Terry and said, hey, this is a 652 00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:06.519 good guy. He's a good you know, you should talk to him. 653 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:09.000 I guess Terry wrote back and said, well, I'm under I'm under some 654 00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:14.159 contract from WWE. I need their permission. So I was able to actually 655 00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:20.559 get in touch with WWE, and they gave and they gave me Bruce Pritchard 656 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.719 gave me permission to to talk to him as long as they could could look 657 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:28.639 at you know, what I was writing. And then I never heard back 658 00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.360 from Terry, so, uh, you know, he probably didn't want to 659 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.559 talk to me. But I think, you know, he doesn't do a 660 00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:39.760 lot of interviews anymore. I think he's very media shy. You know, 661 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:43.719 he's been you know, he's been through a lot with all of his scandals, 662 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.320 so he certainly he doesn't need the money, he doesn't need the publicity. 663 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.599 You know. I don't think he's you know, that interested in talking 664 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.880 to someone like me who he doesn't know at all. So I wasn't able 665 00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.480 to talk to him, but I was, you know, I think I 666 00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:00.360 did a good job, you know, knocking on the door or of his 667 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:06.559 childhood home and talking to people person that lives there now and tracking down his 668 00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:12.920 his bandmates from Ruckus and from his childhood. I was able to fact talking 669 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.800 to Jerry Briscoe, I was able to fact check a couple of stories from 670 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:22.199 the Hogan mythology around how he you know, whether or not he really had 671 00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:27.639 his leg broken in his first matt first training session, and you know what 672 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.840 his bus his wrestling career, I mean, his music career really was all 673 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:36.039 about. And then I just went to Hogan's hangout in Clearwater Beach and I 674 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.880 saw I saw him in person, and I briefly flirted with the idea of 675 00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:45.480 going and embarrassing myself on stage by singing some song on karaoke, which would 676 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.519 mean I would get to like take a selfie with him. But I was 677 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:50.559 like, I don't think I need to do that. You know, I'm 678 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:54.599 just gonna report on what I'm what I'm seeing here. Yeah, well I 679 00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:57.920 can't. That would have been amazing, that would have been absolutely amazing. 680 00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:00.719 Yeah, I think I would have done that. I would have done it. 681 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.440 But that's I make a selfie, that's about it. I make an 682 00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.800 ass out of myself at least ten times a day, So that's you know, 683 00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:08.719 that's just the way it goes. We had a deal years ago, 684 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:13.800 Brad where we really wanted to get sometime with Brett Hart because we did an 685 00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:19.519 exhaustive, like fifty hour history of WWF in ninety seven in Montreal and Wow. 686 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.239 I went up to him at a at a you know a convention, 687 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.599 actually, the Rhode Island Comic Con you would know it. And I'm in 688 00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:28.840 line and I get up to the front and I say, Brett, can 689 00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:30.159 you do an interview for the podcast? For a podcast? And yeah, 690 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.599 he's signing a thing in the signing line. He's like, no, no, 691 00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:35.880 no, I listen to that. So I came back around and I 692 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.199 asked the guy who was with him, his handler, if he would do 693 00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:40.920 an interview after the line had died down, and he said, yeah, 694 00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.559 fifty bucks. I'm like what, okay, So I go and get the 695 00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.039 money. I give it to him, and all of a sudden, yeah, 696 00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:51.920 the guy that's got a running traffic for Brett introduces us to Brett, 697 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.119 and Brett looks at us, like what am I doing this for? And 698 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:58.199 the only thing I could think to tell him, Brad, was I paid 699 00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:02.039 fifty dollars for it, So maybe that's a tool you can put you and 700 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:06.840 then yeah that we talked to him for like, you know, six minutes 701 00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.639 about Montreal. So yeah, you know, olwould say to mean a lot 702 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.480 to us and all that, you know, so I was like a fan 703 00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.760 right in his eyes, looking looking to do a little something for a podcast, 704 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:19.360 and uh and yeah, he talked to us a little bit. He 705 00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:22.199 shot on Triple H which is great. Yeah, and and that was that 706 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:25.360 was pretty much that nothing new about Montreal, but you know, something that 707 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:29.280 we could author there. And it was just just I don't know, maybe 708 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.039 that's maybe carry some more fifties with you when you're on the road with these 709 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:38.400 boys. Sometimes sometimes sometimes twenties work too. Yeah, we we we approached 710 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:42.480 Brian Knobs at Wrestle Khan and it was like, you know, he brought 711 00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:45.400 priban, can give us five minutes for a podcast and how much? And 712 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.039 we said, I don't know what. We said whatever cash we had in 713 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:51.559 our wallet, and he like asked for double We said sorry. He went 714 00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:52.440 to walk away and then he said, okay, I'll do it for that. 715 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:58.280 So that's what's going on with these guys. That's what's going on in 716 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.440 their house. It's really interesting, right that, I mean you're bringing up 717 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:06.960 it's funny, but you're also bringing up a bigger point around what the wrestlers 718 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:09.440 are like in terms and that's something that in the book, like you know, 719 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:14.639 like Tony Atlis and Tito Santana, they demanded that I pay them, 720 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:19.960 which which as a journalist I really don't like, right, And so you 721 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.960 know, my my compromise was that, Okay, I'll pay you, but 722 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:25.000 I'm going to put that in the book. The reader, the reader needs 723 00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:28.039 to know that that. Kudos to you for that, man, that that 724 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.599 is so like because you know, if that's the terms of engagement, like 725 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:32.519 what what the fuck? What are you supposed to do? Just not write 726 00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:36.760 a book? But that's the key is disclosing it. And there are a 727 00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:38.719 lot of interviews out there with a lot of wrestlers where they appear to be 728 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:44.880 just shooting up from the hip where that that compensation is not disclosed, and 729 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:47.679 that's that's a that's a demerit in my book. Yeah, And the thing 730 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:52.440 is that, so why is it that these wrestlers, you know, and 731 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.719 you just shared two examples, why do they demand to be paid when most 732 00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:58.360 of the baseball players did not do that? Right? Right? Right? 733 00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:01.559 And I think that this circles back to or a conversation earlier about them having 734 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:07.400 been exploited for so long by the promoters that creates this sort of paranoid and 735 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:13.599 overly entrepreneurial mentality that you know, everything that they do now they need to 736 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:15.559 be paid for, which I understand, I'm not I'm not saying that that's 737 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:21.519 unjustified. Well also though, too, it's because they don't have any any 738 00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:25.039 protection, you know, Like you know, as as an actor, I've 739 00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:30.280 got I've got two unions that that support me and that and that are going 740 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:34.800 to give me a pension when the time comes when I'm when I'm old enough. 741 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:37.280 So it's like that's probably problem too, is that there's no real These 742 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:42.719 guys are just out there and they're completely unprotected unless they protect themselves. And 743 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:45.239 I don't think when you're in the when you're in the throes of it, 744 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:52.119 I don't think you have the mentality to know that you know, in in 745 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:54.400 in twenty years or so, you're not going to want to do this anymore, 746 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:58.280 and you're not going to have any money because you're just you keep spending 747 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:00.960 it and you're not being smart with it. That's an excellent point and another 748 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.559 part you just alluded to, which we forget about again writing about whether it's 749 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:09.079 baseball or wrestling, these how old are you guys again? Forty and forty 750 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:13.280 three? By forty two, forty almost forty three. I'm forty three. 751 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:15.239 I don't know about you, guys, but like I'm a hell of a 752 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:19.679 lot smarter now than I was in my twenties. Yeah, oh yeah, 753 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:23.280 we forget that. Like these all these guys, these guys that we worship, 754 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:28.079 these these cultures we create, we will you know, baseball players, 755 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:30.599 wrestlers, they're in their twenties, basically at the at the peak of their 756 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.239 prime, and like they don't know what I mean, who are you in 757 00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:37.800 your twenties right? Right? And further, who are you with millions of 758 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:42.719 dollars in your twenties? Exactly? And not just that, but like I 759 00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:45.800 mean the cult you know, back of talking to the eighties on the road, 760 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.760 three hundred and twenty days a year, flying every day, you know, 761 00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:52.039 on a being on a plane every day, and then you get to 762 00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.199 the DA and there are women that are throwing themselves at you. There are 763 00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:59.480 fans that worship you. They pay for everything you'd ever buy a drink. 764 00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:02.719 I mean it's insane. Yeah, it's absolutely insane, and the book is 765 00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:07.159 insane, and we can't urge you more to pick it up. It's out 766 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:12.280 April second, and it is the six Pack on the Road in Search of 767 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:17.760 WrestleMania. Our guest Brad Balukegan helping getting us oriented to the historic Night January 768 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.000 twenty third, nineteen eighty four, forty years ago, Hulk Hogan pins the 769 00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.639 iron cheek to take the title. Brad, tell them how they can follow 770 00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:29.280 you and what you're up to. Yeah, I look forward to listening to 771 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:31.920 your carverage. This has gotten me. It's exciting to talk about stuff. 772 00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:37.280 It's you know, it's really fun to dig into it. So yeah, 773 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.480 book comes out April second. I'll be on tour in the Northeast and the 774 00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:44.280 Midwest in April and May, so i'll get the word out about where i'll 775 00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:47.119 be. Please come see me in person as you can. My website is 776 00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:55.599 the bradpack dot com and I'm at Bradpacbooks on both Twitter and Instagram. So 777 00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:59.719 yeah, and I'll be doing like also, Oh, one more thing that's 778 00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:02.800 really fun is so when you write these nonfiction books, you only use five 779 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:06.760 percent of the material that you can come up with, right. I've always 780 00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:12.119 thought like books are missing, especially nonfiction books, are missing an opportunity to 781 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:16.599 create what's what is essentially like the DVD of books, like a special edition, 782 00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:21.679 bonus materials, deleted scenes. So I'll also be I have all these 783 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:24.920 documents, internal documents from the WWF from the eighties. I have all these 784 00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.280 interviews I interviewed, you know, other wrestlers Ken Petera and Jim Brunzell and 785 00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:35.480 Tony Geria that never made it into the book in any substantial way. So 786 00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:37.960 I'm going to be including all of this bonus content on the website as part 787 00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:44.519 of the package. Do you have the official attendance number for WrestleMania three? 788 00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:50.000 No? Well that no, that wasn't in the mid curial. I don't. 789 00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:52.159 Well, I'll have to go back. I might have the gate and 790 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.360 the number of pay per view buys, but we do know I think again 791 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:59.480 the weight of evidence suggests it was it was seventy eight to eighty thousand. 792 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:02.760 I want the exact number, though, be careful what you say about that 793 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:07.159 one, Brad. There are people who that's their whole personality, is that 794 00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:09.119 attendance numbers. I know, I know, I know that's a big one. 795 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:12.480 But you know, I make a point whenever I write about it to 796 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.400 not cite I do not put the ninety three thousand number. Yes, yes 797 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:20.239 you do not. That's definitely a snick test that perhaps one could say you 798 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:22.559 passed. But yeah, definitely check it out. For no other reason, 799 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:27.679 then he was kind enough to come on TLF and help give more body to 800 00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:30.719 our coverage of this historic night in wrestling. Brad, Thank you so much. 801 00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:34.880 Thank you. I really appreciate you. Guys,