1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,119 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:57,119 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by former FBI profiler Jim FitzGeralds fitz 11 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:03,000 to his friends and doctor Raymond are joining us to talk about their new podcast, 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,120 Cold Red Fits and Ray Thank you for joining us. Kirstin glad to 13 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,879 be back, and thank you for having us on. Thanks Kristin, and 14 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,239 you too, will Bill of course, Oh of course, Bill, we 15 00:01:14,239 --> 00:01:18,120 don't want to forget about you. And as I recalled, just before we 16 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:23,439 started, Ray was bucking to be our favorite profiler and pushing fits out of 17 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:29,480 the lead spot for our favorite FBI profiler. How did I do? You're 18 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,719 doing great so far? Yeah? Yeah, self praise is better than none, 19 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:37,359 Ray, That's what my dare. Dad, you should tell me you 20 00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:41,680 keep thinking you're the best. Terrible, Jim, I'm very fragile. Take 21 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,400 it easy on me. I can see that about you, all right, 22 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,719 spoken like longtime partners. I would say, it's pretty clear that the two 23 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:52,400 of you know each other. But go ahead and formalize it for our audience. 24 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:56,120 When did you start working together? And would you call this a friendship 25 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:00,159 or a partnership or what would you call this start? Because you mentioned it 26 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:04,120 the other night on our show. When I was in Philly as an agent, 27 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:07,079 I was rolling down the street in my vehicle and I saw this guy 28 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,400 who was homeless, and I'm just all right, all right, I'm just 29 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:13,400 kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. First time I ever met 30 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,120 Fitz, I was sitting on a bank Robbie squad in Philadelphia and a lead 31 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,759 came in from New York. The lead there was a couple additional questions I 32 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,680 had about the lead, and I gave a call up to the asient in 33 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,280 New York, James Fitzgerald, and we started talking and then fits wind up 34 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,080 going down in the unit, and then we talked and formed a friendship and 35 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,879 it's lasted ever since, so it's more than thirty years. He's like family 36 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,199 to me. He's we're very close, and I do appreciate that. Ray. 37 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,599 And yeah, and then you were an NCABC coordinator, National Center for 38 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:51,120 the Analysis, a violent Crime coordinator, which means he had special training and 39 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:54,439 behavior profiling, but he was in the field. And back then, in 40 00:02:54,479 --> 00:02:59,240 the early days of the profiling unit, it went by different names. Back 41 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,080 then, I won't bore you listeners and viewers of all that stuff, but 42 00:03:01,159 --> 00:03:06,360 we'll just call it the profiling unit. The profilers are basically assigned geographically, 43 00:03:06,759 --> 00:03:08,599 and I figured, I'm from Philadelphia, let me just keep the home state. 44 00:03:08,719 --> 00:03:13,240 And I basically had New England down I think through Jersey and Delaware, 45 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:16,879 so any case that happened in that region which would need help from a profiler, 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,639 behaviorless whatever. Of course, now I'm doing more forensic linguistic work. 47 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:25,240 After the unibomb case anywhere in Philly, and that's a big division up to 48 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:30,080 State College and parts of South Jersey. Ray'd be the one that would give 49 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,680 me a call. And we worked a number of cases early on, and 50 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:37,400 we solved between Arthur boemar serial killer. Ray we helped solve that and the 51 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:40,199 Center City rapist. We certainly played a role in that being solved. So 52 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,400 we had some I was gonna say good luck, but we had some good 53 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,199 detectives working with us, and we did our best to fill in the behavioral 54 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:51,159 missing pieces and both those cases came together, and of course a bunch of 55 00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:53,560 other ones since then. And yes, so professionally we've been together for a 56 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,680 while and personally the same time too, and we'll save some of those stories 57 00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:09,120 where maybe time podcast guys after dark? Yes, after dark? Oh Bell, 58 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:12,520 that sounds like a pretty great idea, mind of a murder after dark? 59 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:15,279 I like it. That sounds great, Hey, great idea fits. 60 00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:17,759 I think we're going to steal that if you don't mind go for it. 61 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:24,160 And then, but your podcast is Cold Red, and so how far along 62 00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:28,680 are you with Cold Red? I'd say we're about seven or eight episodes at 63 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,839 this point. The first few. We just done just Ray and I, 64 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:34,319 which is not a bad combination. And we had our first guest the other 65 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:39,720 night. We have an executive producer, the sound producer, and you want 66 00:04:39,759 --> 00:04:43,360 to talk about missing kid and child abductions, things like that, and Ray 67 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,199 and I both work those cases. We both can talk the talk. But 68 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,680 we both collectively figured let's let's bring someone in who really knows what they're talking 69 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,360 about. So Ray, why don't you tell him about our first guest ever? 70 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,920 And I think he really hit a home run. That was a good 71 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,959 friend of mine. And Jim also knows. Name was Kevin McShane and he 72 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:04,279 was part of the CART team. So you say, KART, what does 73 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:12,040 that mean? What does that acronym mean? It's the Child Abduction Response Deployment 74 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:15,639 Team, so it's car DT. But you hear Kart, thinks Art. 75 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,759 And what happens is he was a member, one of the original members of 76 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:26,079 that team that kind of formed in the early two thousands, and he would 77 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,040 be deployed predominantly. He was a member of a regional team that handled the 78 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:35,040 northeast from Maine down to Virginia. But there's times when agents are away or 79 00:05:35,079 --> 00:05:40,079 they're involved in caseworks where he would be deployed all over the United States. 80 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,480 Usually they're on scene within the first if there's locally, usually there's an agent 81 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,800 within the first few hours, because time is your enemy in these cases, 82 00:05:49,879 --> 00:05:54,160 especially when you have a missing child. He brought a lot of things to 83 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:58,839 the table for us. He explained things very well. I think our listeners 84 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,319 were great. They were very fortunate to have someone like that to be able 85 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,759 to discuss that. Whose idea was it for you guys to team up and 86 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,639 have this pod? This is clearly a match made in heaven between the two 87 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,839 of you, considering all the experience that you have in your friendship. Who 88 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,199 stepped forward first and said, hey, let's have a pod. I'm going 89 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,639 to start off ray a few years ago, and we haven't talked about this 90 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,839 in a while, but I think you know where I'm going. I do. 91 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:30,600 I'm good friends with a very popular sports radio sports show host in Philadelphia 92 00:06:30,879 --> 00:06:34,720 named Angelo Cataldi. He actually just retired a few years ago. He wanted 93 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:38,360 to see the Eagles go to the Super Bowl one more time. They didn't 94 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,720 win, of course, so he retired. But a few years before that 95 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,079 we got friendly and he read my books. He was very encouraging. I 96 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,079 actually thank him in my first book, A Journey to the Center of the 97 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,920 Mind, my memoir series. And we started talking. I said, Angelo, 98 00:06:51,079 --> 00:06:56,360 I think there's room out there for a radio show where we talk true 99 00:06:56,399 --> 00:06:58,839 crime. And I said, you work for a station. You've got some 100 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,519 poll there. What do you think I had this buddy, Ray Carr, 101 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,120 I think the two of us could really we could get out there and we 102 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:08,079 could start off right away, present cases, past cases, anything like that. 103 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:10,800 These are Fitzy always called me, FITZI, that's a great idea. 104 00:07:11,319 --> 00:07:13,920 Let me talk to my people. And Ray, I think I called you, 105 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,199 and I think within two weeks or so, we had an interview in 106 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,360 a radio station twelve ten in Philadelphia, in downtown Philly. We met there 107 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:26,399 one afternoon, around one or two o'clock and we sat down with this I 108 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:30,480 don't know, probably thirty five forty year old producer, and quite frankly, 109 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,160 we started arguing. We started arguing from the beginning. You argued Fits. 110 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:40,480 I didn't argue at all. I was a peacemaker. There was good cop, 111 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,040 bad cop, and I guess I was the bad cop that day. 112 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,879 But basically we sat down and we said hey, we're ready to go. 113 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,199 And this guy starts asking us like technical questions about you know, what kind 114 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,360 of equipment you would need, and we were going to come into a studio. 115 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:54,920 This is before people were working from their homes, and do you know 116 00:07:54,959 --> 00:07:57,319 what it's like to do a talk show? How much work? I said, 117 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,360 yeah, I do, and we're willing to put the work into it. 118 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:03,279 Ray and I have wred big cases together, twenty four forty eight hours 119 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:05,399 in a row and in person or on phone whatever. I said, we 120 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,560 can do this. Give us a good producer and once a week, two 121 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,399 hours, three hours, twice a week. We can do this. And 122 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:15,160 the guys, no, you can't. You don't know how hard it is 123 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:18,720 to be a radio talk show host. I said, I'm telling you we 124 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:22,480 can do this. We're FBI retired, and we know how to testify, 125 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,319 we know how to talk to people. I give presentation, and basically the 126 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:28,240 one guy just wound up slamming his book and said, yeah, don't call 127 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,240 us, we'll call you. And we walked out the door and there are 128 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,000 people going by on their little motor scooters. Remember I forget the guy's name. 129 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,600 That was one of the sports hosts and we walked up the door. 130 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,279 I called my friend Angelo and said, didn't go that well here, Yeah, 131 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:43,399 don't worry about it. Let me see fit, see what else I 132 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,000 can do. And I said, you know what, all this podcast stuff 133 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,759 is coming on the board now. Maybe maybe Aventure that'll be the direction we'll 134 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:56,000 go. And quite frankly, I sat back and waited for the right team 135 00:08:56,159 --> 00:08:58,960 to come to us, and basically and Ray was a part of this. 136 00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:01,679 And the day came, I said, hey, guys, you're the talent 137 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:05,360 quote unquote, and we'll put everything together, the marketing and the admin stop 138 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:09,399 and of course the technical stuff. And about six weeks ago we was it 139 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,240 Ray the night of the Nashville shootings, or maybe a couple of nights after 140 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,759 that, and that was our first or second episode and we've been going out 141 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,679 it ever since. So Ry and I tried to do this with Terrestrial I 142 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,360 guess radio they call that, and we wound up bargaining with the guy. 143 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,440 We didn't get the job, We failed the audition. But when our podcast 144 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,840 is as the thousands of downloads a week, that guy may be saying, 145 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,159 why didn't I hire them? Back then? That was back in twenty fifteen, 146 00:09:37,399 --> 00:09:39,519 believe it or not, that was you would just retired. I think 147 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,600 the summer of two fifteen. I've retired in fourteen, so the summer of 148 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:46,480 twenty fifteen when that came in, and Jim is right. He took offense 149 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,200 that Jim believed that this wasn't a big deal. And he says, I've 150 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,679 been doing this for twenty years and I'm telling you by all means this is 151 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,000 a big deal. And I said, I don't think that's what Jim means. 152 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:01,840 He just means it. But everything already went down to drain by that 153 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:05,559 point, so we just figured, all right, no worries Jim, let's 154 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,240 look for a different direction. And Jim's right. A lot of things came 155 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,120 and went and finally they came to us and they had a nice proposal and 156 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:16,919 we agreed, let's see where it goes. Let's see where it goes. 157 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:22,480 Fits. You had done a fair amount of podcasting with Jim Clemente and others 158 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:30,120 on Real Crime Profile Ray. Had you also done guest appearances on other Yes, 159 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,080 true crime podcasts. Yes, I was on Jim Clemente's podcast, not 160 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:37,759 as often as Jim, but I was on there. I was on a 161 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:41,360 couple other ones. After I wrote a book, the things started to come 162 00:10:41,399 --> 00:10:46,399 to Patrician in reference to that, and that's another case that Jim and I 163 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,480 work, But I was more intimately involved in that book in that case, 164 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,039 and it seemed to be a good story. So I wrote a book and 165 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,799 it drawed a lot of attention, media attention. It still is. I 166 00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:01,200 just tell us the title. It's called thirty Years on the Run, the 167 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,559 Hunt for the most prolific bank robber in American history. Wow, and Ray 168 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,519 caught him. It's a book of a happy ending. It is, it 169 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,759 is. It is a happy ending. He's believe it or not, he's 170 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,000 actually out of prison. Now that's how long this thing. He got seventeen 171 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,840 and a half years. It's happened back in two thousand and two. So 172 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:26,480 he got out in late twenty seventeen. He's he's out of prison. And 173 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,080 I tried to and maybe one of these days Jim will get a chance to. 174 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:35,000 Jim and I actually interviewed him and he did a on tape and so 175 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,200 we have about a two and a half hour tape of him live while he 176 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:43,399 was incarcerated, and Jim and I used that as a training tape for brother 177 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,559 agencies looking at bank robbers because he was unique. Here's a guy that he 178 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,879 was not your typical bank robber. He began robin banks in nineteen seventy three 179 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,559 and was arrested in two thousand and two. Wow, it's a long period 180 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,879 of time. And the funny thing about it is when we first started looking 181 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,519 at it, we were only under the oppression that he started robbing banks in 182 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,840 nineteen eighty seven. So my first interview with him and said, why don't 183 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:11,600 you He goes, what do you want? What do you want me to 184 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:13,919 start? I said, why don't you start at the beginning? He says, 185 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,559 and my first robbery in nineteen seventy three. I went, that was 186 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:22,759 like my first oh ship moment. Wow, I don't I wasn't ready for 187 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:24,279 that. And I said, well, why don't we start when you were 188 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,200 a little kid and how you brought up? Just to save myself because I 189 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,960 wasn't prepared. But here's a guy that graduated from Villanova with a degree in 190 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:39,200 electrical engineering, went into the military special Forces, but he didn't win as 191 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,120 an officer, which he could have. He went is a non com He 192 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:45,919 came out, went back to the University of Penn got a master's degree in 193 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,960 systems engineering, and then went on to Penn State working on a PhD in 194 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,559 statistics. So he was very accomplished and very intelligent, but he never worked 195 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,399 a day in his life. His job was robbing banks. In that entire 196 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,080 thirty it seems like such a disconnect, though, that this guy with multiple 197 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,960 degrees is clearly highly intelligent. Why the heck would he go down the road 198 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,240 of being a bank robber? I could tell you that, but then you'd 199 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:18,840 have to buy the book. So we have to buy thirty Years on the 200 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:24,200 Run in order to everything a story. No, I'd be more than happy 201 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,960 to come back, and I don't want to take up all the time here. 202 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,240 I'd be more than happy to come back and talk about that at another 203 00:13:30,279 --> 00:13:35,000 time with both both you and Kristenville. That's not fascinating. We would love 204 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,440 that. It is a great story, and I was glad I ran some 205 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:43,000 interference with Ray, but to his credit, it was him and his fellow 206 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,519 agents in the Philly Division that really put the case together. In fact, 207 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,639 you were pretty close Ray, and then nine to eleven happened and you had 208 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:54,720 to put everything on the hold for was it a year even give or take 209 00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:58,759 eight months? About five months? Five months anyways, Jim so again eventually 210 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:01,600 the was made whatever and Rey can get more into that. But we worked 211 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,799 out to do a behavioral a post conviction behavioral interview, and we did, 212 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:11,519 in fact recorded. We brought an FBI Academy videographer with us and the whole 213 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:13,360 sound thing set up, and I guess what do we bring him over to 214 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:18,919 Philadelphia Division Ray we don't have a Philly vision YEP on a subpoena of some 215 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,240 sort and out of prison and that we interviewed him for about three or four 216 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:24,600 hours and a very fascinating guy. And I've done that with a few people 217 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:30,120 in my life, even in retirement, with the bank robbers and other sexual 218 00:14:30,559 --> 00:14:33,879 assault type people. It's frustrating party you wants to jump over the desk and 219 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:37,679 strangle them. Not so much Carl though the bank robber, because he was 220 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,440 a polite bank robber. He actually did shoot definitely one person Ray too, 221 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,679 maybe and maybe do we have do we know? Form actually three? But 222 00:14:48,039 --> 00:14:50,519 just with take a step back talk about jumping over the desk. I had 223 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,320 to stop him from that guy at twelve ten, Jim did go over the 224 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,679 desk after that guy and I had a grab just kidding. He didn't do 225 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,320 that. This kid there was, believe it or not, there was. 226 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,679 One was a bank manager in jim Thorpe that was shot at, almost dipped. 227 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:13,960 Another was a customer bank customer that was coming in from carrying her business 228 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,639 earnings from the day to make a deposit and he shot her and she had 229 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,519 a grays wound in the ear. And then there was another that he did 230 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:26,039 not admit to, but both Jim and I believe he did, and that 231 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,559 was the shooting of a police officer in nineteen eighty two up in Columbia, 232 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,039 Pennsylvania. And he denies that he did that, but it just seems that 233 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,200 in nineteen eighty two he stopped robbing banks and began back up again in nineteen 234 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,919 eighty seven. So he took a five year hiatus, and Jim and I 235 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,399 both asked him, why did you stop? He says, I just got 236 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,440 talking doing it and I wanted to do something else. So what he did. 237 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:58,519 What he did is he started stealing books, textbooks from colleges, and 238 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:02,960 then he would take those books in the back of his van and he would 239 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,720 go up to Columbia University, and he would post something that books for sale, 240 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:11,840 because they all use the same books for sale, statistics books, math 241 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:14,919 books, economics, and he would sell those. And I said, geez, 242 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,120 Carl, how much money could you make? And Tony goes, I'd 243 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:22,960 make thirty thousand dollars. Had how many books he stole? He was amazing, 244 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:26,879 I said, thirty thousand dollars. That's unbelievable. Most people in the 245 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:32,080 eighties. You were lucky if you were making seventy eight thousand dollars a year. 246 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,360 Before we move on, though, one thing I wanted to ask was 247 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,879 when you told me that, if I'm doing this for memory, he served 248 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:45,159 seventeen years or something like that, seventeen and a half. That strikes me 249 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:52,080 as a light sentence for someone that actually committed acts of violence during the commission 250 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,919 of those bank robberies, because when you first said that, I thought to 251 00:16:53,960 --> 00:17:00,879 myself, this must be one of those gentlemanly bank robbers that doesn't shoot anyone 252 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,279 or injure anyone. And yet he actually did injure at least to people. 253 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,200 Shooting a police officer, as we know, is deadly serious business here. 254 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:15,039 How did he manage to only serve less than twenty years despite being a violent 255 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,039 criminal. He was arrested in two thousand and two. And although the shootings, 256 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:26,839 although very egregious as they were, they were outside the statute limitations wow 257 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:32,960 or many of the bank robberies, So there were really only five robberies that 258 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,599 were within the statute of limitations. So he entered into a seplea. And 259 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:44,039 what a seplea is in federal court. It allows both the prosecutor and the 260 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:49,400 defense attorney to agree to a sentence before he's sentenced. Now, just because 261 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,640 they agree to it does not mean that the judge has to abide. But 262 00:17:53,720 --> 00:18:00,279 in many cases it's discussed in open court and the judge gives out take it 263 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,720 under consideration. But usually it works out on the benefit of the offender when 264 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:07,640 that happens. This is fascinating. We've got to have you come back here 265 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,839 and talk about this case. Ray Sure think sure, Thank Chris, and 266 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:15,799 I'd love to. What would you say are some of the major goals that 267 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:18,279 you have for your podcast other than telling an amazing story, which you both 268 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:22,599 clearly can what are your the major things that you want to accomplish as you 269 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,920 go through If I'll start with you and then kick it over to Ray. 270 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,759 Yeah, we agreed early on that I don't think this is too different from 271 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,519 legitimate and professional podcasts such as yourself, but we want to make a big 272 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:41,799 part of our podcast about the victims. And Bill, no one knows victimhood 273 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,359 more than you. You've lost a sister, I've lost good friends, police 274 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,640 officers, other friends, and robberies and things like that, so it is 275 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,240 very difficult, and we want to make sure that why we can joke a 276 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,519 little bit as we are now, sometimes in the beginning, sometimes at the 277 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,079 end, but in the middle, we're dead serious about the topics, and 278 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,519 then we try to give every episode at the end we try to give some 279 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:11,319 kind of hints or suggestions or ideas about how a victim can best protect themselves. 280 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,240 It may be directly related to the topic we just discussed it, maybe 281 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,920 indirect to it, but we could be very basic, it could be more 282 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,400 advanced and complex, and from street crimes to cyber crimes, it is about 283 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,799 the victims. I'll never forget the first crime con in Indianapolis. I was 284 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:30,400 there with Jim Clemente. I'm not sure if you were at that one, 285 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:33,759 Christ and I know you came to the Indianapolis one. Now, I think 286 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:37,480 my first one was Nashville. Nashville I met Indianapolis was the first one, 287 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,319 and that's where we met, I think for the first time. But I 288 00:19:41,319 --> 00:19:44,279 remember Jim was like the MC for the whole thing and on the stage that 289 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,039 make sure we have a moment in there about the victims. He's all fit, 290 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,119 You're right. I think he's a brilliant guy, but he had so 291 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,799 much on his mind that's had maybe ten or so seconds of silence for the 292 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,240 victims before you we kick everything off. He's a good idea, and I 293 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,160 hope crime con we're not as much involved in on as we used to men 294 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:03,640 in his company, and I have an involvement there too, So yeah, 295 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,880 it's about the victims, but of course try to tell the story in between. 296 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,720 We're not lecturing anybody. We're not saying here's what you got to do. 297 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,960 But I think the way we try to lay out our individual anecdotes or 298 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,319 multiple anecdotes regarding you know, different types of criminals who may be committing the 299 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,559 same types of crimes. Hey, listeners and viewers. At the end, 300 00:20:21,759 --> 00:20:26,240 here's how you can avoid being a victim yourself. Or a loved one, 301 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:29,720 and if, by God forbid, it does happen, here's what you know 302 00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:33,519 you can do to get through it. Ray you want to jump into Yeah, 303 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:37,839 I think Jim said it beautifully. Our whole thing is to communicate to 304 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:45,319 victims that they're not forgotten. No victim is ever forgotten here. So we 305 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:51,119 do talk about things so that we can help prepare those that were victims so 306 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,359 they won't be revictimized, and those that have never been a victim to make 307 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:59,519 sure they can avoid things by improving their situational awareness. The situational awareness is 308 00:20:59,559 --> 00:21:03,359 such a big part of what people do every single day, but people are 309 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,759 so oblivious because they have their heads in their phones or their iPads and are 310 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:12,640 not paying attention to what's going on around them. People need to do that 311 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,359 more and more, especially in today's society. You see some of the violence 312 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,839 that's occurring, and you see some of these things, and you look at 313 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:27,559 the violence and people are being just jumped on in train stations, in the 314 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:32,640 street, they're being knocked to the ground. So that situational awareness can help 315 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,559 prevent you from maybe something like that happening to you. If you're paying attention 316 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,759 to your surroundings. One thing I was wondering about. The two of you 317 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,880 are both masterful storytellers. We often talk about cases that you've worked that you've 318 00:21:47,079 --> 00:21:52,640 solved. Are either of you comfortable talking about unsolved cases that you may have 319 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,160 worked in the past. Sure, It's part of who we are. Yeah. 320 00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:02,599 One of the big one. It sticks with me as a nineteen ninety 321 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:07,160 two eleven year old boy from Drexel, Pennsylvania that was down at the shore 322 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,519 in Cape May Mark Heinbach and he disappeared. Cape May, New Jersey, 323 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:15,720 by the way, Yeah, Cape Maine, New Jersey. He disappeared and 324 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:18,920 they've never found him, and they've never arrested anybody for that. And I 325 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,759 remember I was a fairly new agent, maybe five six years on, and 326 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,400 that winds up falling on me and coming to me, and I just I 327 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,519 still think about that young boy. First thing that came to my mind when 328 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:36,559 you mentioned it, that young child. It's still something that just bothers me. 329 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,759 Where is that young boy? And today that's nineteen nineteen ninety two, 330 00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:45,960 he'd be in his forties, grown man. It's it's one that comes to 331 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,160 mind for you. Yeah, this is it's easy to remember, but very 332 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,920 difficult to discuss. And that is the case of my good friend Joe Welsh, 333 00:22:53,960 --> 00:23:00,200 who was murdered in a street robbery in Philadelphia in the nineteen ninety seven. 334 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:04,240 And I was out at Unibaum, just finishing up there, and I 335 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,599 got a phone call. Joe's been shot. He's forty two years old. 336 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,240 It was middle of the afternoon in our old neighborhood, in our old only 337 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:17,000 neighborhood of Philadelphia. And he lived about two weeks and they finally just pulled 338 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,160 the ventilator and he was gone. And street crimes, robberies, Hey, 339 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,240 give me your money. Probably a junkie. This is not what profilers necessarily. 340 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,160 It's not our expertise or a trade craft. Now I was a police 341 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,680 officer, of course I handled crimes such as this, and I helped solve 342 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,079 them. But and it wasn't an FBI jurisdiction either. It was a robbery 343 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,279 homicide on the streets of Philadelphia, so it was a PHILLYPD case. I 344 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,000 worked with the detectives. I brought another profiler up with me. We went 345 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:49,759 to the neighborhood, We went to the crime scene and interviewed some people. 346 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,920 One guy was arrested, but let go. So I'm doing now my fourth 347 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,720 and final book in my memoir series, and that's one of the chapters in 348 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:02,640 that book, I recall out that case and I'm still friendly with his I 349 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,759 was actually most friendly with Joe Welsh's older brother, John, who was actually 350 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:12,319 one of the people shot at the First Move confrontation, Oh nineteen seventy eight. 351 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,599 He was a Philadelphia firefighter and he caught some shotgun rounds to the neck. 352 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,319 I heard this on the radio live and I actually left I was working 353 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,400 that day and drove down to Philly. He was okay, along with a 354 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:33,400 few other firefighters. But here twenty some years later, his younger brother gets 355 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,920 a murdered in a street robbery. And again it wasn't an FBI case. 356 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,200 I didn't have my name on the case file, per se. But I 357 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,000 said to the PD I want to help you guys solve this. I said 358 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,440 to the family, I want to help you guys solve this. And to 359 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,680 this day it hasn't been solved. And I don't want to get too ahead 360 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,480 of myself here, but there'll be a special announcement at the time of the 361 00:24:53,519 --> 00:25:00,240 publication of my fourth book in which I include this chapter about Joe Welsh that 362 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:03,000 it's solved or I have a suspect, but let's just say something I'm willing 363 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:07,119 to do to help maybe refresh the memories of some people out there. So 364 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,480 hope, let's hope that works and finally, after all this time, we 365 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,039 can get some resolution to this one case that sticks in my craw was Joe 366 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,359 Welsh in law enforcement at the time he was killed, or he was a 367 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,160 civilian? Nope, he was a civilian. Three o'clock in the afternoon, 368 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,960 he had some work for the Philadelphia Department of License and Inspection, walking home 369 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,400 from a training seminar to his car in his old neighborhood and someone just confronted 370 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,119 them on the streets. And we have a witness looking out the window, 371 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,759 and I saw everything go down. It was very tough to hear all that, 372 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:41,240 but I do stand up. I still plan on solving this case with 373 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,279 help of the PHILLYPD. And we can talk about the boy in the box 374 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,680 in a bit. But it took sixty five years to solve that case or 375 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,240 at least identify the young boy. Maybe we can find the person who killed 376 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,839 Joe Welsh and let the justice come for that person as it should be. 377 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,720 Neeted. I remember that case, Jimmy, I remember you giving a call 378 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:02,279 up that I remember running down so leads for you with that up in Philadelphia. 379 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,240 I remember that was. I'm sorry I never forgot about Joe either. 380 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,079 I know that affects you. I'm really sorry that that's that's something. I 381 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,039 appreciate that and we will get it solved. And I'm opening this chapter in 382 00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:15,720 my book and get some more headlines out of it. We can, we 383 00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:18,240 can bring some closure to it. You get me if you need anything. 384 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:23,839 Thank you. Right you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 385 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:37,839 after this word from our sponsors, we're back here at Mind over Murder. 386 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,680 As podcasters, we all sort of work within the same true crime space, 387 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,799 and there's always the same sorts of major issues that we talk about in the 388 00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:55,279 crime and justice space. Unsolved cases and how to solve them, best uses 389 00:26:55,319 --> 00:27:00,240 for DNA, forensic genetic genealogy, that sort of thing. What are some 390 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:03,519 of the big issues in the crime and justice space the two of you want 391 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:08,839 to discuss on the pod I would have to say violence in general, it's 392 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,160 off the charts. It's like a war zone, violence against the elderly, 393 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,480 violence against women, There's an addiction epidemic out there, there is huge mental 394 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:25,160 health issues out there. There's a big lack of trust between police officers and 395 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,440 citizens. There's a lot of issues that are facing police agencies this year. 396 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,839 Think about and one of the things I'm on the Police Administration Committee for the 397 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:40,720 IACP, and the IACP is the International Association of Chiefs of Police and this 398 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:44,319 year's media is in San Diego and I go to the yearly meetings. But 399 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,039 one of the biggest problems with police forces across the country is recruitment and retention. 400 00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:53,599 That's just a big thing. And look at the media coverage. When's 401 00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:57,839 the last time you heard something pleasant about what the police do. Unless you're 402 00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:02,720 watch it on a YouTube or a TikTok someone sends you a TikTok thing, 403 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,359 nobody ever talks about that. Police are so under the gun that no matter 404 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,200 what they do, they're under the risk of prosecution. How do you work 405 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:12,880 under that? What does that do for morale? What does that do for 406 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:18,759 their wellness? Police officers want to be part of the solution, but I 407 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,119 don't think the media and the public are giving them the opportunity to do. 408 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,720 What I'll add to that is both directly and indirectly. Yeah, I support 409 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,480 the police, I'll say one hundred percent. But having said that, I've 410 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,759 been involved in the arrest of police officers and FBI agents. If they're dirty, 411 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,400 they should go down, of course due process. Of course they've every 412 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,279 right that everyone else does. But yeah, we do have to give the 413 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,799 law enforcement more support today than ever because they are being decimated in the social 414 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,160 media and regular media for that matter. I was interested in learning just a 415 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,000 few months ago at v DOC of a new term that a prosecutor laid on 416 00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:59,000 me, and I was familiar with the term. So let's take it to 417 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,920 the next level us what's happening in the streets, the subways in many of 418 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,319 our large cities, the crime rates and other places. And so let's say 419 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:10,759 there is an arrest made and now the person goes to trial, and there's 420 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:14,400 a jury. And for years we've heard the term CSI jury, and that 421 00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:18,039 is and Chris and you mentioned some of these forensic capabilities early on when you 422 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:23,079 asked this question, and it's like nowadays or then, the CSI jury, 423 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,680 if there wasn't DNA, if there wasn't clear full color surveillance video, and 424 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,519 of course throw in fingerprints. They were reluctant to convict someone based on watching 425 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:38,240 the TV show CSI, in which every forty two minute episode with commercials, 426 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:44,039 of course wound up it being closed because one of these three factors kicked in. 427 00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:48,039 You don't necessarily need DNA, fingerprints or surveillance cameras. There's plenty of 428 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,480 direct and indirect evidence. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence that in fact can lead 429 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,400 to a conviction. Well, I learned just a few months ago from someone 430 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,039 at the v Doc Society. She was a guest. She's a prime p 431 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:03,400 secutor in northern New Jersey. Now, the term that prosecutors use besides a 432 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,440 CSI jury is a Netflix jury. And I said, boy, I think 433 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,039 I know where you're going with that, But tell me, and she said, 434 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:15,519 yeah, it's like people now watch Netflix and all these documentaries are about 435 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:22,319 either someone was falsely accused and falsely convicted, or they raise serious questions about 436 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,599 the legitimacy of an arrest and a conviction. And I know what with the 437 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,839 I guess the granddaddy of all podcasts, certainly in true crime, was Serial 438 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,559 about dod' not I forget his last name. Yeah, And I listened to 439 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:37,559 that and very interesting. But I said, after listen to that, I 440 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:42,240 said, we could pick there's a there's criminal investigation that was broken down into 441 00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:48,920 every single element and torn apart every witness identification. And just because something's called 442 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,200 a documentary, it does not mean it's one hundred percent objective or even true. 443 00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:56,519 Producers, directors, they have their agendas too. Some of them is 444 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:00,680 to sell the the documentary. I know that was PBA, I think at 445 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,599 or NPR, whatever it was. But I remember telling people said, it's 446 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,799 interesting. They do raise some good questions. You can have the best brain 447 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:14,400 surgeon in the world that performs a perfect operation, very complicated, very technical, 448 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,279 and then you have a team that comes in afterwards and looks at everything 449 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,160 she did and said, you know what, now, this could have been 450 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,359 done better here now, now I have a problem with cutting this part of 451 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,480 the the left side of the brain as and I'm just using this, of 452 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,240 course as an example. So that's where it's also problematic with Jury's this Netflix 453 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,960 and they watch these shows that according to these documentaries, many of these people 454 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,519 are innocent and shouldn't be in jail. And the last thing does not to 455 00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:41,799 do with TV. But I teach. I know Ray teaches in academia. 456 00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:47,799 I teach at Pennwest University. I'm familiar with people teaching at Georgetown University. 457 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,759 And there's something very popular in academia right now called the innocence problem. And 458 00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:55,480 boy, it sounds great and it's I'm all for it. I've even helped 459 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,680 on a few cases. But you have some of these professors, usually lawyers 460 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,039 at them, is coming in and they're convincing entire auditoriums of college students that 461 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,160 virtually everyone in prison is innocent, and I think that is unhealthy. It's 462 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,599 not the case. Are there some people in prison that shouldn't be there, 463 00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,640 possibly, but we're talking less than point zero zero zero one percent, and 464 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,799 yeah, let's fight for those people. But I think we're getting school of 465 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:27,200 thought put out there now that prosecutions are bad, convictions are bad, and 466 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,119 in jail is good. And I know some academics in my field of forensic 467 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,640 linguistics, they refuse to work with law enforcement, they refuse to work with 468 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,720 prosecution. They'll only work for the defense. I remember twenty years ago talking 469 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,640 to some folks I would never work a capital case for the prosecution. Okay, 470 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,079 I respect that you don't believe in the death penalty. I respect that, 471 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:50,599 But now they've reached the point they won't work with law enforcement or prosecutor's 472 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,440 offices at all. I said, shouldn't the evidence supersede that you look at 473 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,319 the evidence in the case. Wouldn't that just you could look at that objectively 474 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,599 and say, hey, this guy, if it's all was the case, 475 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200 he did write this threatening letter whatever. And they said no, I just 476 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:07,440 I don't believe in the system anymore. And of course they're teaching students, 477 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,759 and I just think it could be very problematic that way. Every case has 478 00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:14,960 to be looked at individually, and there's no problem doing that. But I 479 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,960 think a lot of these students are being convinced and a lot of our public 480 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,880 is being convinced that the criminal justice system is flawed and it's putting too many 481 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,559 people in jail that don't belong there. It's the best system there's ever been, 482 00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:29,920 and that's just a falsehood that's being that's permeating throughout our society that I 483 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,400 hope can be corrected. You mentioned the VIDOC society a moment ago and we 484 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,480 know you're both members of VIDOC. For the benefit of our listeners, can 485 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:44,359 you explain what the VIDOC society is and how it functions, right, Jim 486 00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:47,440 Doc v I d O c Q. It was the name of a French 487 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:54,759 criminal, Jacques or Jean, I forget his personal Francis probably Francois French. 488 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,640 Anyway, you remember the name. I didn't, but been a member for 489 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440 fifteen years. Anyway, he was a criminal in Paris and they locked him 490 00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:07,079 up and he realized the wrongs of his ways and he came out and the 491 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,920 police at first hired him just to help out solving crimes, and next thing 492 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,199 you know, he became a police officer, and next thing you know, 493 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,840 he became the chief of police of the Paris Police Department. And he's considered 494 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,119 the first true detective. Sherlock Holmes, of course, was fictional, but 495 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,679 Francois v Doc was real and he lived to eighty two years of age. 496 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,360 So that's why v DOC only has eighty two full members privileged to be one 497 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,599 of those full members, but there are hundreds of associate members and they were 498 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:40,519 founded really started with the boy in the Box case. That case goes back 499 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:44,679 to the late fifties, but they were reinvestigating this matter. In the late 500 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,960 nineteen eighties, a few people got together and said, why don't we start 501 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,000 this little group the society. We have these lawyers, we know, we 502 00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:53,599 have these retired investigators. Let's meet for lunch once a month or so in 503 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:59,519 the fancy Union League building in downtown Philadelphia in South broad Street. And it 504 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:02,440 grew from there. Now it's several hundred people strong, and we do meet 505 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:06,880 the third Thursday of every month and a new case comes in. We're a 506 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,880 nonprofit, of course, we actually pay to go to these lunches, and 507 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,760 that's fine because we're contributing to the cause. We fly in the departments. 508 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,480 Usually you won't get like NYPD or LAPD coming in, and not because one 509 00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:21,360 set of detectives is better than the other, but they have the funding and 510 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,320 they have the personnel that they can handle a lot of their cases. We'll 511 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,159 usually get smaller to mid size departments who come in and the case is at 512 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,599 least five years old. We've had cases there ray probably fifty years old besides 513 00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:35,480 even Boy in the Box, and we'll sit and listen to the investigators. 514 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,800 Rarely are the investigators in the front of the room, the ones who initially 515 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,519 work the case. So we're getting like second or third generation investigators because now 516 00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:47,360 there's a cold case squad formed in their department and they're now involved in it, 517 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,679 and they're saying, all right, here's everything they did back then. 518 00:35:51,039 --> 00:35:53,360 Here's everything we have in front of us. Can you guys help put these 519 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,960 things together? And we have DNA experts, we have profilers, forensic linguist. 520 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:05,079 Ray has all of backgrounds with evidence and hostage negotiation as a profiling coordinator 521 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,199 and certainly an investigator. And we have other people that are lawyers and computer 522 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,159 people, blood spatter people, and we're all together in one room. There's 523 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:17,000 usually fifty or sixty of us. They do the PowerPoint presentation always by dessert 524 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,519 times when the autopsy pictures go up, which is strange. People like Ray 525 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:27,960 and I are used to that. That's why I dessert, Jim, Okay, 526 00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:32,840 deserve even today. I don't need dessert, Jim. There's a reason 527 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,280 for it. Okay, somebody's going to bring out some pictures dead bodies, 528 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,880 don't you desert time, you and the sixth sense kid. But it's not 529 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,880 even planned that way. It's just there's always a few autopsy pictures in there, 530 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,199 and then we have a Q and A afterwards. We've started about two 531 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,239 or three years ago. We don't just end it on that day, say 532 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,800 thank you detectives, let us know if anything happens. We now have working 533 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,239 teams that we'll assign to each of these cases, maybe a dozen members each 534 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,719 with varied backgrounds, and we'll do our best to do follow ups with these 535 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,119 detectives for months, if not years down the line. They are very appreciative 536 00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:13,480 of their day or two in Philadelphia and that they know they're getting the top 537 00:37:13,559 --> 00:37:15,800 quality people who can talk to talk but also have walked the walk. To 538 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,960 use that expression again in terms of what we can offer them back. And 539 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,039 not every case gets solved because they only bring us the toughest cases. Five 540 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:29,639 ten could be thirty six years old someday, Bill, But there's actually advantages 541 00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:32,079 to working cases that are old that you don't have in the beginning. And 542 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,480 I know our time is running out of here, but allegiances that were very 543 00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:39,360 strong back when a murder was committed, they somehow fade away. When the 544 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,800 big tough guy back then who maybe was the murder, he's now a little 545 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,719 fat, bald guy that doesn't quite have the power base that he used to 546 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,800 and his cohorts, his ex girlfriend, next wife, whatever. He doesn't 547 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,840 instill the fear in them that he used to. So that's a big factor. 548 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,400 And what we say, try to go back and interview this person again. 549 00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:00,039 Reinterview people, maybe have them wear a wire all legally, of course, 550 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,840 check their phone records, things that most investigators will have done already. 551 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,360 But we try to take them to the next level. And sometimes they'll come 552 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,800 in with one or two suspects. Sometimes it's five suspects or more. Sometimes 553 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,199 no suspects at all, and that's when we'll try to paint the profile for 554 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,800 them when there's no suspect, but if they have four or five, we'll 555 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,039 do our best to prioritize them. Usually we can rule out two or three. 556 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Say I would say it's this number one guy here, I would do 557 00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:30,159 everything in your power to eliminate him, and if you do, then go 558 00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:32,000 to number two. But boy, everything you've told us this seems to be 559 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:36,639 of the culprit here and the investigators from all over the country. We've had 560 00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:38,960 them come in from Canada already. They really appreciate the help we can give 561 00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:43,480 and we definitely have sobs some cases, including that one that's sixty five years 562 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,800 old. The one thing that Jim says, I'm also a full member with 563 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,079 the society, But the one thing that Jim talks about is the disciplines. 564 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:55,840 You have to understand that any discipline that you could think of, from toxicology 565 00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:01,760 to blood spatter to fingerprinting, tolig no matter what it is, there's somebody 566 00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:07,800 within this society that has an expertise. It's a subject matter expert in that 567 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,679 area that they bring to the table. So we have that the ability that 568 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,039 nobody else in this country has is to have every discipline covered, looking at 569 00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:22,000 it, even genealogy. We have everything covered, which makes us so unique. 570 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,320 One thing I'll mention because I know our listeners are going to bring it 571 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,000 up after listening to this fascinating part of the conversation. I want to make 572 00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:37,440 it clear the Colonial Parkway murders families did request that the FBI Norfolk and Newport 573 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:43,639 News offices take the Colonial Parkway murders to the Vadoc Society, and BI turned 574 00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:47,480 us down. This was in twenty ten. I believe I was involved in 575 00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:52,400 the formal request and they turned us down, and you get the usual bureaucratic 576 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,480 answer, it's an open case. We don't feel like we want to bring 577 00:39:55,519 --> 00:40:00,079 in outside experts. I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to revisit that. 578 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,440 I know people have said to us who follow the podcast, have you ever 579 00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:09,159 considered the v doc society? And I know that this conversation will steer people 580 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:14,320 back in that direction. I'd certainly be willing to revisit it, but I 581 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,400 do want our listeners to know that we did ask and we were turned down 582 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,360 before. I still think it would be a great case for the doc. 583 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,760 Although it's a very complicated case. We've had complicated cases and we can handle 584 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,159 them, and every case has to go by its own merits. I'll be 585 00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:34,199 careful here, Bill, but I really wish perhaps a new team of FBI 586 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,079 agents. And I forgot it was as long as thirty six years. What 587 00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:40,880 the hell do they have to lose at this point in a closed society of 588 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,800 experts. We're not saying do a documentary and yet, although that may be 589 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,320 down the line, something to do too. I know there have been some 590 00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:52,119 media shows on that, but they get really into the depth of this investigation. 591 00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:55,440 What the hell do they have to lose after all this time? So 592 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,639 I disagree with their logic there, I agree with you, but maybe they 593 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:05,480 go and I don't know. But do we know if this case was ever 594 00:41:05,519 --> 00:41:08,800 sent down to BAU, yes, or look at it's actually been looked at 595 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:14,440 by BAU more than once. That's still not a problem. There's been cases 596 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,000 that have been looked at by VAU that have still come to the Vduck Society. 597 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,280 We've been able to help because you get a fresh set of eyes on 598 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,760 it, which is exactly what you need. You need these fresh set of 599 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,280 eyes to give you some insight that you may not be able to see because 600 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,119 your judgment is clouded or because it's so old. But some of the guys 601 00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:36,800 in the Vduck Society are pretty old too, not us, not me and 602 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,360 you Jim. But there's some guys there and ladies that are pretty old that 603 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,840 have been around the block a few times, so they know what to look 604 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,840 for. So yeah, I hope that. I hope we get a chance 605 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,039 to take a look at that Bill, I really do. Yeah, And 606 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,480 unfortunately we can't reach out. Rock doesn't call these local or state police departments 607 00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:57,239 or FBI. Hey, we'd really like you to be It has to be 608 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,199 the initiation of even the family. They can request all they want to us, 609 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,920 they really have to go to the investigative agency itself. So there's a 610 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,280 number of cases of which I am familiar. I would love to just run 611 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,760 it ourselves at the DOC, but of course we can't do that. We 612 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,679 need the inside investigators that can really bring us the information that can help solve 613 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:19,960 the case. It's an intriguing possibility, without question. So I know both 614 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,360 of you are authors. We've referenced Ray's book already, and Jim has referencedes, 615 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,119 of course. But let's get it on the record for anybody who wants 616 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,280 to embark on a literary journey through your books. So Ray, give us 617 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,400 the details about yours and where people can find it, and then Fits give 618 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,599 us yours. The name of the book is thirty Years on the Run, 619 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,559 the Hunt for the most prolific bank robber and American in history. It's about 620 00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:45,960 an individual that was involved in robbing banks for thirty years before he was caught. 621 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,599 He's unique. I gave you some insight into that. If you're interested 622 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,360 in purchasing this book, you can do so on Amazon, or you can 623 00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:00,000 go to my website Raymondjcarr dot com and you can order right off my webs 624 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,000 if you'd like to do it there as well. And Jay car dot com 625 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,039 and Fitz go ahead and talk about your books, please, Ray. When 626 00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,480 people buy your books from you, do you give them free signed posters with 627 00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:15,760 cool statements on them? Because I do? Now. I knew you were 628 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,480 going to say it. Not you and your bvds or anything, is it, 629 00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:22,239 Jim? Oh geez no, Ray, go there's your fantasy life aside 630 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,039 for a minute, right, just for a minute. Anyway. My book 631 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,719 series is a Journey to the Center of the Mind. All three books have 632 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,559 the same title, and I'm now doing the fourth one. It'll be out 633 00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:36,519 in the fall, and by popular demand, I put the third book. 634 00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:39,360 I. I hired a professional voiceover guy to do the third book. He 635 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,599 did a great job. In fact, it was nominated for an award the 636 00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:45,639 Audio Book, and I didn't win, but it was still being nominated was 637 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:49,000 pretty cool. People said, Hey, this guy was great, Jim, 638 00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:51,280 this guy was great, But I want to hear your voice. I said, 639 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,320 I put off writing my I wrote three books in five years, and 640 00:43:53,519 --> 00:43:57,880 I needed a little bit of a break. And so now just back in 641 00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:00,320 February or so, I started doing my fourth book. I'll be the final 642 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,599 book in my memoir series, also a Journey to the Center of the Mind, 643 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,239 and it will be me narrating the second half of my FBI career and 644 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,400 the exciting stuff that happened in retirement in the fifteen years since I've retired, 645 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,400 but still a very busy profiler and forensic linguist. But I want to add 646 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:22,199 in there two Separate from those that book series, I also did an audio 647 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,960 book called The Fits Files Manhunt Unibomber, and just a few years after the 648 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,079 mini series came out it was so popular. Of course Manhunt Unibomber. It's 649 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:37,360 Sam Worthington portrayed me in that series. It's eighth part was on Discovery Channel, 650 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,760 then on Netflix. Now I think it's only on Amazon and the Discovery 651 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,519 Channel website. But I did a companion piece, if you will, in 652 00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:49,519 which it's eight chapters in this audiobook, and I each chapter relates to one 653 00:44:49,559 --> 00:44:52,639 of the episodes in Manhunt Unibomber, and I break down for the listeners what 654 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,519 actually happened, what didn't happen, why the writers and directors made it this 655 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,480 way, and I also interviewed Jim Clemente because he was one of the co 656 00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:04,960 creators of it. The director. I interviews Greggory Antennas, Andrew Serdrowski, 657 00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:07,400 the head writer, and a couple of the prop guys. Are are really 658 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,400 cool too in the stories they tell in terms of how they make a series 659 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,280 from twenty or twenty five years back, and how they get old fax machines 660 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,239 and old computers and that's just part of it, and even guns and how 661 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,000 that stuff works. So a journey to this center. Mine is a series 662 00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:24,039 Amazon, and through my website you get a free coool poster. Go through 663 00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:30,800 me directly and also Amazon and audio dot com where the Fitz files Manhunt, 664 00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:35,679 unibommer. What's the poster to pick? I was actually going to reach for 665 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,760 mine so I can show it to you. I don't have Jim has a 666 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:46,360 copy. Give Jim a second's wow, it's a pretty good look. I 667 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,199 can't wait to see this. Pray you're you think they're funny here, don't 668 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,679 you? No? Not at all. Jook for ideas to help market thirty 669 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,119 years on the run his book. He wants to be as successful as you 670 00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:01,159 are fit. Why can't I find them? I don't want to say. 671 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,719 We're seeing the best out of it right now, Jim, don't worry. 672 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,320 God, do you know I have my relatively close by there. It is, 673 00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:15,119 oh my god. But if I leave it up there, someone will 674 00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:17,320 print it out and copy. Hey, let me tell you what's happening real 675 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,400 quick to me. People are contacting me by mailing online and ray, this 676 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,159 is going to happen to you. And there's pictures of Ted Kaczinski and mugshots 677 00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:28,480 and they want me to sign them. They say it's for their kids, 678 00:46:28,599 --> 00:46:31,599 and their kids are in wheelchairs and hospital beds. And one of them sent 679 00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:35,559 them to my actual address and how did they find that out? And I 680 00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:38,639 waited a while, which it's a former address. Now it really is all 681 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,679 right. Your kid's in a wheelchair, right, you're sick, you're elderly. 682 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,639 I signed them. It's a three or four of them up, so 683 00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:47,320 it's Ted Kazinski, it's me at the cabin. They're online. They print 684 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,400 them out nice stock paper. I signed them. You can guess where this 685 00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:57,519 is going. They're on eBay seventy five, one hundred dollars. There's a 686 00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:00,239 guy now wants my business card because he wants to teach his son how to 687 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:07,760 be surprised. Just sign the business card so we can put it up in 688 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,519 his little glass case. And I haven't responded yet, and I'm thinking of 689 00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:16,599 saying, if you put it on eBay, I want fifty whatever you're running 690 00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:22,920 here? So did you get my letter? Jim? I asked for money, 691 00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:25,679 Yeah, but you sent me your picture, which automatically negated the deal. 692 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,079 I can see you whenever I want. I know. That's terrible, 693 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:32,360 isn't it. We're gonna have to continue this. We're gonna have to continue 694 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,079 this. This has been an amazing conversation. We're gonna invite you on to 695 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,760 our show. How about that? Absolutely? We would love that. Okay, 696 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,400 we would love that so much. That is going to wrap for this 697 00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:49,880 episode of Mind Over Murder with Jim Fitzgerald and Ray Card. Their podcast is 698 00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:53,159 Cold Red. Where can we find the podcast, gentlemen, It's on Apple, 699 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,119 It's on iHeart, on YouTube. There's clips there. If you just 700 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,320 google it cold Red, it'll pop up and you'd be good to go. 701 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:06,599 Fantastic. The podcast is called Red. Jim, Ray, thank you so 702 00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:08,519 much for joining us. As always it is a pleasure to have you here. 703 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,440 Thank you, Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. That's 704 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,280 going to do it for this episode of mind Ever Murder. We'll see you 705 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:29,480 next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog 706 00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:35,400 Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art 707 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,599 is by Pamela Arnoi. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over 708 00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:45,840 Murder is distributed in partnership with cral Space Media. You can follow us on 709 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,840 Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the 710 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,719 Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 711 00:48:53,840 --> 00:49:01,960 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind a Murder.