1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 You can't have those two at the same time. The actual reality is that 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,320 it's neither of those. It's neither of those. That it's Christianity. As 3 00:00:08,439 --> 00:00:13,560 Christianity took cold, it integrated the things that could integrate, it kind of 4 00:00:13,919 --> 00:00:17,879 let fall to the side of things that couldn't be integrated, and it ended 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,280 up with a world that was based on the ancient pagan world in terms of 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,879 a lot of the forums, but moving using its meaning pointed towards God and 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:41,640 towards Christ. You know, yeah, this is Jonathan Peshel. Welcome to 8 00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:57,000 the Symbolic World. Hello everyone. I am happy to be back with Father 9 00:00:57,079 --> 00:01:00,439 Andrew. It's been a while since we've had a discussion. We felt like 10 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:03,159 this would be a great time to catch up with some of the things that 11 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:08,200 we're doing. Father Andrew has been publishing a wonderful podcast called The Wolf on 12 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:14,640 the Cross, which documents his visits to Lithuania and exploration of Lithuania as this 13 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:19,920 amazing center where Orthodoxy thrive, where Catholicism is there, and that is actually 14 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,719 what we're going to talk about. So Father Andrew had the idea of looking 15 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,000 at how the church has dealt with the question of its encounter with other religious 16 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:33,000 traditions, you know, the opposition, the compromise that also bringing in all 17 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,959 of these types of things. So I'm looking forward to our discussions. Father 18 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,879 Andrew, Thanks thanks for meeting with me again. Thank you very much for 19 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,680 agreeing to talk to me. I think this is a really interesting topic that 20 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:48,640 does not get a lot of press in our very polarized days. Yeah, 21 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,599 and for you also, this whole adventure in Lithuania is also a very personal 22 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:59,680 encounter, like it's a personal journey, let's say it is. I just 23 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:04,079 came back a few weeks ago from my second visit there, and just to 24 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,239 show how personal it is, one of the things I got to do in 25 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,759 the second visit was I visited the small town that my great grandfather was from, 26 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,400 where I had been before, but this time I actually got to go 27 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:19,280 inside the Catholic church that is the one church in that town. Basically everybody 28 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,280 in the town belongs to that church. The pastor of that church is the 29 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:24,879 pastor of the town, which is hard for us who live in the West 30 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:30,800 to imagine that. But he gave us a very long and beautiful tour. 31 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:31,800 And one of the things I got to do while I was there is I 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:37,319 actually got to touch the baptismal font that my great grandfather was baptized in one 33 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,680 hundred and forty years ago, and I got to stand in the place where 34 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:46,719 my great great grandparents were married one hundred and sixty years ago, or however 35 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:51,639 many it was. But yeah, so it's extremely personal. And now I've 36 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,840 made a number of friends that are there that I talk with pretty much every 37 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,120 day, and so, yeah, it is. It is something very very 38 00:02:59,159 --> 00:03:01,400 close to my heart. So tell us a little bit about what because I 39 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:07,919 imagine that this provokes some insights and also some research into this question because Lithuania 40 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:12,120 has been such a place of melding and you know, things coming together. 41 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:15,319 So tell me a little bit about what your insights about how the church deals 42 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,879 with Yeah, so a lot of people don't know where Lithuania is even on 43 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:23,719 the map. So if you're looking at eastern Europe and then your eye kind 44 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:25,199 of goes up towards the top, that's where it is, up towards the 45 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:29,280 top, right on the Baltic Sea, right across the Baltic Sea from Sweden. 46 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,639 It's next to be Larus, It's next to Poland, next to Latvia, 47 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:37,759 and a little piece next to Russia. So if you think about that 48 00:03:37,919 --> 00:03:40,159 on the map, that's actually really important part of what we're talking about. 49 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:46,520 When Christianity splits, you know, in the eleventh century give or take. 50 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,680 Eventually, you know, Eastern Europe becomes Orthodox later on, largely speaking, 51 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:54,840 although there's already some some of that going on by the time the split happens. 52 00:03:55,199 --> 00:04:00,000 And if you look at where the border is between Orthodox East and cas 53 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:03,520 West, it basically runs right there. That's exactly the place where the border 54 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:08,280 is. Lithuania is interesting in that regard. Now. Of course it's Catholic 55 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:13,199 now, but it was also the very last pagan nation in Europe. It 56 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,279 did not become Christianized until the very end of the fourteenth century. And yeah, 57 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:24,040 so that's pretty recent relatively speaking. And so the encounter of Christianity with 58 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,399 Paganism, I mean, most of us were know anything about church history. 59 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:30,839 We think about the encounter of Christianity with paganism, but we think about it 60 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:34,800 a thousand years before that, right, So it's all very nicely in the 61 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,040 past. It's all very nicely in the books. All of that has been 62 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:42,879 worked through. You know, we don't really even see the lines that much, 63 00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:46,319 you know, unless someone's looking for them, especially trying to undermine Christianity, 64 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,959 let's say. But with Lithuania, it's very much more recent, just 65 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,600 a few hundred years in the past. And even when Catholicism becomes the national 66 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:00,879 religion, there's pockets of paganism that exists for a while. And this is 67 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,399 the thing that I really want to talk about today. There's a lot of 68 00:05:03,439 --> 00:05:09,600 indications of the way that Christians dealt with paganism and the way that Orthodox Christians 69 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:14,120 dealt with being in what was a Catholic majority country. So when that Christianization 70 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,639 began to happen in the late fourteenth century, Orthodox Christianity was already there. 71 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:23,000 Catholicism was of course already there. So you get these two Christian traditions kind 72 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,600 of competing in the same space for the hearts of pagans, but also simply 73 00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:34,439 living with them and being married to them and you know, doing life with 74 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:41,120 them. Right, So it forms a really interesting place to look at this 75 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,240 question. But I you know, before we get into that too deeply, 76 00:05:44,319 --> 00:05:47,639 I want to just actually talk a little bit about the backstory of Christianity with 77 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:53,439 regards to dealing with other religions, because if we don't know that, then 78 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,319 what I'm going to talk about in Lithuania might seem weird. You know, 79 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,040 it might seem surprising or you know, let's sweep that under the rug kind 80 00:06:01,079 --> 00:06:05,720 of thing. But actually it's it's normal. It's pretty normal in fact, 81 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:11,439 right, So, you know, beginning with the Bible itself, just in 82 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,480 the Old Testament, for instance, you get the encounter of the people of 83 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:19,519 Israel with the pagan religions of the ancient ear East right Bail worship of course 84 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,000 number one. Also there's a worship of a god named Shemesh, who is 85 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,160 a Canaanite sun god. And so here's the funny thing, Like we all 86 00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:31,600 know about the sort of polemic against pagan religion in the Old Testament. You 87 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,720 know, there's there's all kinds of mocking pagan gods and all this stuff that 88 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,519 we love. You know, it's a lot of fun to read. We 89 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,839 love the showdown on Mount Carmel between Elijah and the prophets of Bayo, you 90 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:46,319 know, you know, with a fire from heaven and so forth. But 91 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,839 also what a lot of people don't know is that some of the bail imagery, 92 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:54,079 like the fact that he's the writer on clouds. That gets used for 93 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:00,120 the Son of Man in Daniel and in the Gospels when Christ ascends into heaven. 94 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,000 Right, it's really important. It's important to notice that that it's happening 95 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,199 in the Old Testament, especially because people don't understand, for example, why 96 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,759 we call the Theotokis the queen of heaven, because they see that as a 97 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:16,439 title for ancient pagan goddesses. And it's like, yes, that's it. 98 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,360 We took it, like I not just took it, but like we showed 99 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,079 you what the real queen of heaven is, right, right, I mean, 100 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,519 okay, So Shemish is another good one. Right. So one of 101 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,439 the hypostases of Shemish that was worshiped actually in Jerusalem, in pagan Jerusalem, 102 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:40,759 you know, was called Shemisheka and soeka or it means justice or righteousness, 103 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,199 and so it's the sun Shemeish means son, like the son in the sky, 104 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,519 the son of righteousness or son of justice. Well, this gets used 105 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,279 in Malachi to refer to the Son of righteousness who rises with healing in his 106 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,279 wings. And then in the Orthodox Church we use that same phrase son of 107 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:01,639 righteousness in our Nativity of Politichian to talk about Christ who gets worshiped by star 108 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,439 worshippers who now go on to worship the real son of righteousness. Yeah, 109 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,480 yeah, yeah, you know, the Trabaria and the Christmas Trebarian is a 110 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:15,319 great example of that, exactly where we show how those did worship the stars 111 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,160 are now worshiping the maker of the stars based right, yeah, and we're 112 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:24,079 doing it by taking their pagan language and applying it to Jesus, you know. 113 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:26,480 So it's again it's in Malachi, so it's in the Old Testament, 114 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,680 so it's nothing new for Christians. It's in the Old Testament, right, 115 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:35,440 But the New Testament of course does this stuff too. And there's a lot 116 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,960 of examples we could point to, but particularly I like to look at Saint 117 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,240 Paul and the Areopogus, where right before that chapter before that, it says 118 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,399 he's really mad because he sees that Athens is full of idolatry. Right, 119 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,320 So initially you get the sense of, oh, okay, so when he 120 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,840 goes up to the Areopogus, he's going to let him have it. He's 121 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:56,039 going to be polemical Paul, right, But of course that's not what happens 122 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,519 when he's on the areopagus. Instead, he takes this altar to the Unknown 123 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,960 God and says, I'm here to proclaim it this unknown God to you. 124 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,080 I mean that alter was a pagan altar that pagan sacrifices were offered on. 125 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:13,840 I want to invite you all to the very first Symbolic World Summit. Over 126 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:16,399 three days, we will finally meet in real time, in real space, 127 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,600 and everyone from this little corner of the Internet will be there to explore the 128 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,840 theme of reclaiming the cosmic image. Of course I will be speaking. There 129 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,840 will also be Martin Shaw, who is an amazing mythographer, father Stephen de 130 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,679 Young of Lord of Spirit fame. There will be Richard Rowland from the Universal 131 00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:39,120 History series, Vesper Stamper, Nicholas Kotar, and Neil de Gray that you've 132 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:43,080 all seen on my channel here and there for entertainment, we have everyone's favorite 133 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,960 apocalyptic band, the One and Only Dirt Coor Robbins. This event will be 134 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,759 the chance of a lifetime to capture and embrace our current moment. So join 135 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:58,039 us from February twenty ninth to March second, twenty twenty four in Tarbinspins Florida. 136 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,240 Visit the SIMI world dot com slash summit for more information. I will 137 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:11,840 see you there. That alter was a pagan altar that pagan sacrifices were offered 138 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:16,399 on, right, it was not some crypto Jewish altar or something like that. 139 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:20,200 This is a pagan altar. But you know, even more interestingly, 140 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:26,720 probably a little less obvious, he quotes from two pagan poets. So he 141 00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:31,000 quotes from Epimenities of Crete, who that line in him we live and move 142 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:35,960 and have our being. He also quotes from a Ratus who talks, who 143 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,039 says, you know, and we also are his offspring. Well, both 144 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:46,000 of these lines are about Zeus, like this is Zeus poetry, and Paul 145 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:48,919 is saying, yeah, I'll take that, you know, I'll apply that 146 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,919 to the One True God. Right, So he's he's subsuming it into what 147 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,159 he's doing. He doesn't look at it as being sort of hopelessly polluted. 148 00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:01,799 Yeah, this is so import I mean, especially when you look at I 149 00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:07,200 mean the main objection obviously to Orthodoxy and to Catholicism from Protestants are often these 150 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,120 types of things where they look at the styles of worship or aspects of worship 151 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:13,840 that they can see in the pagan world, they see it coming into Christianity, 152 00:11:13,159 --> 00:11:16,519 and then they wonder. You know, it doesn't mean that well, 153 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,120 they're not the wonder. They declare then that the worship is pagan. But 154 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,720 this is something like even in terms of the revelation of the Tabernacle from God 155 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,720 himself. You know, the structure of the Tabernacle is this the structure of 156 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:33,440 every single pagan temple in the world, A three tiers structure, you know, 157 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,480 with like the most holy place where you would have that usually they would 158 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,759 have the idol there that would be hidden and they would be revealed on a 159 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:43,320 certain uncertain in certain feasts or whatever. But the structure itself is a universal 160 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,840 structure, and so and so it's the way to see it. It's like 161 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:50,240 you could see it in a bunch of ways, which is that on the 162 00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:54,360 one hand, the pagan traditions are actually twisting the true faith, and now 163 00:11:54,399 --> 00:12:00,519 God is twisting it back towards what towards its rightful direction. Or you could 164 00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:03,840 see it that God is able to cover over our sins. Right He's like, 165 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,320 okay, this is what you do. I'm gonna take this, I'm 166 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,639 gonna make it I'm gonna turn it in its right direction. But either way, 167 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,320 whether it's one or the other, you know, that seems to be 168 00:12:11,399 --> 00:12:15,320 what God is doing all the time, which is saving that which is lost. 169 00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:18,159 Yeah. I mean it says in the Psalms right that the earth is 170 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,480 the Lord's in the fullness thereof. But sometimes people who have this idea of 171 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,399 kind of religious cooties, they would say, the earth is lords and the 172 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,960 fullness they're of, except for these parts which are sort of hopelessly not his 173 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,600 anymore, you know, don't touch that. Yeah, So this kind of 174 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:35,320 thing continues, right, So I gave just a couple of examples from the 175 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,639 Old and New Testament. I could we could talk for hours about just the 176 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:43,000 Bible, but Christians continue doing this. So of course, as an iconographer, 177 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:48,720 you know full well that the tradition of Byzantine iconography owes a lot to 178 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:54,200 the tradition of Egyptian funereal art, right, Like if you look at the 179 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,639 art that was on that was related to Egyptian funerals, I mean again, 180 00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:03,519 these are pagans, demon worshippers. Yea. Even the Roman, it's Roman, 181 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:07,559 It's exactly, it has that Egyptian aspect. To it. And then 182 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:13,279 it also has a very strong Roman element, the way that Christ his blessing 183 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:16,200 hands, Like would we say that Christ is blessing like this, That's a 184 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,039 Roman sign of address. It's a you can see the Roman emperors doing it 185 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,720 in the first century on statues, and so you know this is but it's 186 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:28,639 funny because the funniest thing about this, honestly, Father Andrew, is that 187 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:35,960 the same person that can look at ancient pagan practices and see how Christianity transformed 188 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:41,279 them towards the worship of God will like without non apologetically have a rock band 189 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:46,840 on stage in church and like and I realized that it's like, you know, 190 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,039 using the language of the culture to and transforming it. And it's not 191 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,840 even transformed usually in terms of the rock band on the stage, but it's 192 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:01,320 like the Christians actually did a very deliberate theological bringing in these elements and transforming 193 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,039 them, like the way that Roman arch, for example, moves from paganism 194 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,919 to Christianity. You can see it happening. You can look at you know, 195 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,519 the essential elements being toned down, you know the different these different elements 196 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,639 are being toned down, these are played up, you know, the use 197 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,840 of the halo was used for the emperor, for example, So now we 198 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,159 we it's a pagan sign that was there before, and so then we're like, 199 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,759 no, we're going to reserve this only for the saints, only for 200 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,159 Christ and his mother. And so you can see the transformation happening. But 201 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,799 it's a it's not just accidental, like, it's not just like it's not 202 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,399 just like taking a rock band and putting it on stage in your church. 203 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,600 It's a theological transformation. Yeah, the pagan things into the there's a creative 204 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:46,440 engagement, right, it's not just sort of adoption. There's an adaptation also 205 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:50,200 happening. Yeah. I mean there's some things that you could point to as 206 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,039 being almost adoption at least initially, and then the adaptation happens later. One 207 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,720 really obvious example are Christian calendars. So the Julian calendar, I mean, 208 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:05,960 it's not name for Saint Julius, you know, it's named for the divinized 209 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:13,000 exact. It's literally named for what Pagans would have regarded as a pagan god. 210 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,879 Julius Caesar is a is a god, you know, from a Roman 211 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,600 pagan point of view. And it's not just the Julian calendar. I mean, 212 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,440 the Coptic calendar is based on Egyptian paganism. You know, now we 213 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,480 think of these as being calendars that belong to churches, but they didn't start 214 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,080 their lives that way, and the churches did not say, let's start with 215 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,480 something brand new. And what's funny is they they didn't really take the Jewish 216 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:39,039 calendar very much. I mean, there is there are elements in the church 217 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,759 calendar that are from the Jewish calendar, but the basic idea of a solar 218 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,679 year, for instance, of three hundred and sixty five or so days, 219 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,679 these are pagan things. One of the probably more obvious ways that Christians dealt 220 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:54,840 with paganism early on, and you see it in a lot of saints' lives, 221 00:15:54,919 --> 00:16:00,039 is that pagan temples get turned into Christian churches. So the altars that 222 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,720 were, you know, had had pagan sacrifices put on them, become altars 223 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:07,720 to God. Or sometimes what they'll do is they'll take the building, smash 224 00:16:07,799 --> 00:16:11,240 the altar, replace that, and but the structure is is, you know, 225 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:15,080 a pagan temple, like lots of examples of that. The Parthenon and 226 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,679 Athens, of course, was actually a Christian Church longer than it was a 227 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,440 pagan temple. But it was a pagan temple, you know, now it's 228 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,120 a museum. But you know, there's a number of of well, the 229 00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:29,440 Pantheon in Rome is one of the most also the most shining, biggest example 230 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,120 that's still at church now. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. So I 231 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,960 mean there's there's a gazillion examples of this pagan temples that become Christian churches. 232 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:45,840 And even the Basilica architecture itself was from pagan's civil architecture. Yeah, you 233 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,279 know, so it wasn't even for worship, it was you know, although 234 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,919 there's no such thing as secutarism in the ancient world, so civil architecture is 235 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,080 sacred architecture in the ancient world. Another one of my favorite examples, of 236 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,120 course, is the class treat Us by Saint Basil the Great call the address 237 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,039 to young men on the uses of Greek literature, and essentially it's his take 238 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,039 on how you read Homer and he's Yacht and so forth. And he doesn't 239 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:14,359 say like that's pagan, don't read it, but insteady actually says, this 240 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,000 is the weird part. He says, you need to master this before you 241 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,599 can read the Bible, which I mean, I don't preach that, and 242 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,039 I would never counsel anybody with that here in twenty twenty three, but I 243 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,160 mean it's the pretty Yeah, well, we do something like that, father 244 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,319 Andrew, which is that you know, it's like I actually made the mistake 245 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,640 with my kids at the outset to just like straight up read the Bible stories 246 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,559 to them, which which which was probably not the wisest thing to do. 247 00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:48,279 And I realized that actually fairy tales are a good ramp into Bible stories, 248 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:49,880 and so we usually do something like that with our kids. Is that our 249 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,000 kids know the fairy tales more than they'll know the Bible stories at the outset, 250 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,240 and as they get older, you know, like eight, nine, 251 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:00,200 ten years old, then it's easier for them to kind of to take again, 252 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:03,400 especially those Old Testament stories that are that are rough at the outset. 253 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,000 And so we see, I think we do something similar with fairy tales that 254 00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:11,279 Sam Basil talks about in terms of the ancient Yeah. Yeah. Another example 255 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:15,000 of this, and this is one that's a little controversial, but I'm gonna 256 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,720 at least mention it. Uh Saint Johnathan Damascus. He wrote a text called 257 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,799 The Life of Saint Sparlam and Joe as Staff. Yeah, and a lot 258 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:27,720 of people say that this is essentially just an adaptation of the life of Gautama 259 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:32,279 Buddha, Buddha the Buddha. I don't know if that's true. I mean, 260 00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:36,079 I've never really studied this closely. It may be that he simply took 261 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,119 that story and told his story in a way that's reminiscent of it. Who 262 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,319 knows, I don't know, but it's but but there is a possibility that 263 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:45,519 there's at least some kind of influence. And that's not even you know, 264 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,839 that's not the comfortable paganism. No, yeah, exact very far, which 265 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,200 is so funny, Like it's funny. We think of demon worship by Greeks 266 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,799 and Romans and Egyptians as like we can deal with that, but Buddhism like 267 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,880 whoa, whoa, whoa. That stuff that's freaky, again controversial. I'm 268 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,480 not saying that that's where he got it from. I don't know, but 269 00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:10,279 you can read about it on the internet some other stuff that's probably a little 270 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:18,799 bit more provocative, but much harder to just whisk away. So within Germanic 271 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,640 Christianity, so this is later, right, this, you know, Germanic 272 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,119 peoples get Christianized later in church history, not until largely like the eighth ninth 273 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,119 century. And as you're moving on, because it's moving north, right. 274 00:19:32,039 --> 00:19:37,039 So a fun example I like to point out to people is there is an 275 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,839 object called the Frank's Casket, and I saw it in the British Museum. 276 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:45,920 Yes, amazing, Yes, it's most of it is at the British Museum. 277 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,039 There's one panel of it that's in France, although I think they have 278 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:52,640 a copy of that panel at the British Museum, so you can see the 279 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,200 sort of the complete thing. Yeah, Frank's Casket is really interesting. So 280 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:02,359 it's made in eighth century Northumbria, so that's northern England, and it's generally 281 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,279 believed to have been made by mocks okay, and it was based on the 282 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:11,559 size and shape, it's probably a reliquary. We're not certain, but probably 283 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:15,920 a reliquary, yeah, you know, and it's called a casket, but 284 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,599 it's it's it's you know, it's it's this little box. Yeah, it's 285 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,960 yeah. Yeah, it's not like to hold a body, but it's the 286 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,599 same shape as what we would put a body in. And that's deliberate because 287 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,279 if you're going to put a put the relics of a saint in something, 288 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,000 you would want to put it in something that looks like a coffin. You 289 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,880 know, at least that's what most of Christian history has done. So if 290 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,920 you look at the the the images on the Frank's casket, one of them 291 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:47,839 is the three wise Men, you know, approaching the Virgin holding Christ and 292 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:49,400 they're offering their gifts, and you're thinking, okay, good, this is 293 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:56,240 a good, strong Christians image, no problem. But then you start walking 294 00:20:56,279 --> 00:21:00,759 around the casket, you know figuratively of course, because again it's just a 295 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:06,359 little box. On one side, you've got Romulus and Remus, the founders 296 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,440 of the Pagan founders of Pagan Rome, you know, like northern England. 297 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:17,920 Like right, It just shows you that universal history thing that we keep helping 298 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,799 getting people back to. And we should say, how many Pagans are there 299 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:26,759 in Northumbria in the eighth century. Probably none, it's probably all Christian, 300 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,000 yeah, exactly, So there's a Christians making this thing. There's at least 301 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:36,079 one of the panels that people aren't sure exactly what it is. Another one 302 00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:38,799 is a battle that takes place in Jerusalem. And then the one if you 303 00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:42,480 look at the panel that has the three Wise Men and the Virgin on it 304 00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:45,960 and the Lord. It's actually there's a it's a fifty to fifty panel. 305 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,440 So on one side you've got that. On the other side you have Wayland 306 00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:59,359 the smith, who is this semi divinized Germanic smith, you know, divine 307 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,359 smith big You're who makes magical weapons. Uh, and that often gods get 308 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:10,319 apprenticed to so they can become powerful. Like it's it's clearly and so it's 309 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,759 it's this pagan image right next to a Christian image on this site. But 310 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:18,039 it's it's it's it's interesting in the in the casket because the Christian image is 311 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:22,559 the image of the pagans coming to worship Christ. That's what the that's what 312 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:26,759 the image is. Yes, it is, yes, it is, you 313 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:32,240 know, so it's interesting, you know, this Northern English thing, and 314 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:34,480 so it's got this Germanic pagan image, but then it also has stuff from 315 00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:41,839 Roman history all together, because that's the cultural soup of Northern English Christianity in 316 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,799 the eighth century. But it's it's but it's if you listen to some of 317 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:48,000 the arguments that you've heard when you were younger like that, you heard people 318 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:55,279 say you could you had these two arguments. One was Christianity is just syncretism, 319 00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:59,640 it's all just borrowing from Pagans whatever. And then the other one is 320 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,200 christian he destroyed all the ancient cults and they went in, they broke everything, 321 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,279 and they ruined the whole Christian world. It's like, you can't have 322 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,279 those two at the same time. The actual reality is that it's neither of 323 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:12,559 those. Yeah, that's right, it's neither of those. That it's Christianity. 324 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:17,640 As Christianity took cold, it integrated the things that could integrate, it 325 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,720 kind of let fall to the side the things that couldn't be integrated, and 326 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,519 it ended up with a world that was based on the ancient pagan world in 327 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:32,079 terms of a lot of the forums, but moving using its meaning pointed towards 328 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,359 God and towards Christ. You know, yeah, yeah, another fun thing 329 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,640 from that same period of Anglo Saxon Christianity. And I just have to mention 330 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,160 this because I don't know if Richard's going to mention this in your Beowolf class 331 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,440 you're doing with him, But this was something I came across as I was 332 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,680 doing translation work on Beowulf. So there's a phrase that shows up in it, 333 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,559 which is in Old English. It's alf Walda alf Wlda, right, 334 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,359 and a lot of editors actually edit this to make it all walda, to 335 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,200 make it a single word, all Walda. Now that single word means all 336 00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:08,880 ruler, so it's like pentocrat, right, And this is referring to God. 337 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,440 It's pretty clearly referring to God. But if you look at the actual 338 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:18,680 man's manuscript, it's two separate words alf and walda. So Walda's ruler alf 339 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:23,240 means elves. Oh yeah, so it refers to God as the ruler of 340 00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:29,319 elves, which, you know, adjust the translation a little bit, you 341 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:33,240 get lord of spirits, right, So that's interesting. So that's clearly a 342 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,440 Germanic pagan reference. You know, elves, right, Elves are just kind 343 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:44,880 of spirits in Germanic paganism. But again, it's an eighth century Christian writing 344 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,599 this. Yeah, yeah, alf walda. So okay, a couple examples 345 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:53,200 from Norse Christianity because I'm comfortable with the Germanic stuff. So in the thirteenth 346 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:59,039 century, there's a church built in Norway called the Helistods Stave Church. The 347 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,640 church doesn't exist in anymore, but its door posts still do and they're in 348 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,640 a museum now, but they were on a couple of different churches. If 349 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,279 you look at the door posts, they are carved wood. It's beautiful stuff. 350 00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:12,839 It's really really astonishing. And it is the legend of Sigurd and Fafnir 351 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:18,720 from the Volsunga saga, which again is dramatic paganism. You've got, you 352 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,359 know, Sigurd, who is this sort of semi divine figure. You've got 353 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,920 Reagan, who's definitely divine figure. You've got Fafner, definitely divine figure. 354 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:29,440 Fafner, of course, is a dragon. In the legend. You know, 355 00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:32,640 Sigurd goes down and kills Fafnir because Reagan wants him to so they can 356 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,559 get the enchanted gold. And then they decide to they're going to eat him, 357 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,359 because when you eat a dragon, it makes you, gives you magical 358 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,079 powers, and he actually tastes some of the juices from the heart and it 359 00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:47,960 gives him the ability to understand the language of birds, as it always does. 360 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,640 But this was on the front of a church. Yeah, you know, 361 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,000 I had someone tell me one time when I said, can you explain 362 00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:57,480 this to me? And they said, oh, well that was probably to 363 00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:02,079 Lauren. Pagans they would see this and they would come in and then they 364 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,839 and I'm like, okay, well, number one, let's imagine you're a 365 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,839 pagan, Norse pagan. You see this and then you go in and it's 366 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:12,200 clear that this building is dedicated to worshiping some other God, like is that 367 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,359 really going to work on you? And number two, there are no pagans 368 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:22,640 in thirteenth century Norway exactly, They're gone for hundreds of years, for several 369 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:26,559 centuries back, hundreds of years. And another example, of course, from 370 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:30,759 that time and place, well not that place, but close to that place, 371 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,000 Iceland, you get the pros Eta, which is one of the major 372 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:40,759 sources of Norse pagan mythology. This is written by Snorri Storlsen, who is 373 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:42,599 a Christian. Again, he's never met a pagan in his life because his 374 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:48,000 great great great great great great grandparents all got baptized, you know, so 375 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,599 he we don't have any sources of Norse paganism that aren't written by Christians. 376 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,720 Yeah, and you see, I mean, and you can if you look 377 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,359 at the closer like closer to the Mediterranean, you see the exact same thing 378 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,839 happening. You know, you know the fact that we have Boethius's text, 379 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:10,759 which is a Christian text written with so much pagan subtext, and all of 380 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,279 these allusions to these to these allegorical figure, the fact that you'll find in 381 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,119 the Middle Ages people still invoking the muses. You know, these are just 382 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,440 things that were part of Christianity. Yeah, and to try, yeah, 383 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,079 to try to parse it one way or the other is is is just the 384 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,119 wrong way to go. And to say that Christianity is basically infiltrated or whatever. 385 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,720 No, this was a conscious thing. When you get to Dante. 386 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,640 You can see that when Dante wrote his poem, it didn't shock anyone. 387 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,880 It's not like everybody was like, oh no, look at him. He's 388 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,079 like meeting all these It's like he's mixing Christianity and Paganism. It was just 389 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,640 like, oh wow, this is a great, you know, nice synthesis 390 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,759 of what we pretty much think and we've always thought, we've always believed for 391 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,440 the last you know, eight hundred years or whatever. Yeah, I mean 392 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,519 it's funny, like you mentioned Boetheist, right, so his consolation, the 393 00:27:55,519 --> 00:28:00,519 philosophy the big major text. When Alfred the Great does his translation into Old 394 00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:07,000 English of Boethius, he adds in bits about giants from Biblical and Enochic texts 395 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:12,079 to sort of expand out that stuff. So we just talk just think about 396 00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:18,000 the layers in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So I 397 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:22,039 want to fast forward a little bit. Another example of Christian you know, 398 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:30,599 and relatively recent Christian engagement with paganism in Alaska, very famous Athabascan spirit houses, 399 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,640 which you can see, they're not too far from Anchorage if you ever 400 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,880 visit Alaska. Worth seeing. I mean, this is a pagan practice of 401 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,559 building sort of little houses over graves for the spirits to live in for a 402 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,400 while. And you know, the saints, the Orthodox Saints who engage with 403 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:51,759 these people in the eighteenth century let them keep that, but sort of reinterpreted 404 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:56,720 it, you know, got them away from cremation, you know, but 405 00:28:56,839 --> 00:28:59,079 reinterpreted this. I mean, you can go see this. So if you 406 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:02,240 go there and you see this wear houses they have three barred crosses on them. 407 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,920 Yeah, you know, it's it's really something. And then another thing 408 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,680 I wanted to mention that probably would would freak some people out. The numeral 409 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,880 system that we use. We commonly call them Arabic numerals, right, which, 410 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,680 okay, that doesn't sound too threatening, but actually they are traditionally called 411 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,359 Hindu Arabic numerals because they are Hindu in origin and also then really developed by 412 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,200 Muslims. So in that by using those numbers, we are using a system 413 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,559 that was designed in many ways for numerology and all kinds of stuff like this 414 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,440 every day. I mean, we're all doing this. So it's it's a 415 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:41,119 system that's a combination in some ways at least how it got to us of 416 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,279 Islam and of course Hinduism, which is essentially a sort of pagan set of 417 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:49,359 traditions. So that's that's a lot of fun. Okay, So okay, 418 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:52,440 that's Christianity and Paganism. There's lots of things more we could say about that, 419 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,279 but I wanted to talk about historical now, historical Christian Orthodox Christian engagement 420 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:03,880 with non orthor Christianity and other Christians. Right. Again, we know full 421 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:10,640 well the polemics, we know full well the anathletizations of heretics. I affirm 422 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,400 all of that, right, but also with what's going on right now, 423 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,599 it's it's a little tricky, all of it with the synod of synodality or 424 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:22,000 whatever. I know, it's all in the air. God bless them. 425 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:29,680 Yeah yeah. So so I affirm all that I'm not a dissenter. I'm 426 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:36,640 Orthodox. But also in our history alongside that, so there is one there's 427 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,400 a feast of the Martyrs of Najron, which I can't remember the date of 428 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,319 that right now off top of my head, and I didn't write it down, 429 00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:47,799 but one of the main figures in that he's often called Saint Arethus now 430 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,519 his Arabic name is actually al Ji. So where is nas Nasron is basically 431 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:59,720 southwestern Arabian peninsula, and the they were Christians, and there was a a 432 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:06,839 of the Judaizing king named dun Nuas who came in and wiped out almost all 433 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,319 of them, I mean there were some left after he did what he did. 434 00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:12,440 And so they are commemorated as martyrs on our on our calendar, Like 435 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,400 if you're an Eastern Orthodox Christian of whatever variety, the Martyrs of Nazaran are 436 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,319 on your calendar of Saint Arethas and so forth. So what kind of Christians 437 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:30,680 were they in Nazron? Were they Byzantines? Were they no, it was. 438 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,160 It was. They were mostly what we would call Oriental Orthodox, but 439 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,759 there was also a significant presidence of the Assyrian Church of the East than historians. 440 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,759 So they're on our calendar. These are actual saints that are on our 441 00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,240 calendar. And someone someone might say, well, you know, you know, 442 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,599 martyrdom, you know, martyrdom kind of cleans up some of the I 443 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:57,640 mean, actually, we have saints saying that the the blood of martyrdom does 444 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:04,839 not wash away the state of heresy. And yet these are martyrs that are 445 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:08,720 on our calendar. Yeah. Right, Another related figure from this time and 446 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:13,559 places. He's called Saint Caleb or Saint elis Bon. He is the king 447 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,759 of Aksum. So anyone who's been watching your show, your channel for a 448 00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:22,400 while and knows he's a saint in our in our on our calendar. Yeah, 449 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,200 oh yeah really because because he yeah yeah, because he's related as he's 450 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,559 sort of a protector of these Nasron Christians. Again, I mean he's the 451 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,599 king of Ethiopia or Ethiopian Kingdom, which makes him and this is late enough, 452 00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:37,200 that makes him what we would refer to as Oriental Orthodox. Again, 453 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,759 he's a saint in our calendar. I did not know that this is amazing 454 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:45,519 information for yeah, yeah, yeah, So another example I would give. 455 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:52,359 You know, Saint Isaac of Syria not a martyr. Not a martyr as 456 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:55,559 far as we know, he dies in peace. Canonically he belongs to what 457 00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:59,880 we would recognize as the Assyrian Church of the East, and historians, yeah, 458 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,519 I've never heard that there's anything in his theology or and he was writing 459 00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:07,240 that is Nestorian. Yeah, but his whole life was spent outside the canonical 460 00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:12,400 boundaries of you know, what we would recognize as the Orthodox Church. What 461 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,680 would you do without Saint Isaac though? And his writing isac Through his writings, 462 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,599 he becomes a saint to the Orthodox Church. Right again, what do 463 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,519 you do with that? I don't. I don't have a theory for this, 464 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,920 by the way, like some sort of method by which you I think 465 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:32,559 it's probably the best way to understand it is that it's not it's not there's 466 00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:37,240 the rule, and then there's the messiness of the reality. Right, It's 467 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,599 like there's the there's the kind of organic recognition of holiness that the church that 468 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,279 the church does, and it's like, how did it happen? I don't 469 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:47,559 know what it happened, but there it is. And it's like, don't 470 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,079 argue with Saint Isaac, dare you too? It's like he's he's such an 471 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:54,079 amazing saint. Yeah, and it's been I mean it's been long enough. 472 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:58,599 Like there's no there's no going back on this, Yeah, exactly, you 473 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:06,880 can't kick him out, you know. Yeah, although there are examples where 474 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,599 we did. Yeah. So one example not talked of about a lot, 475 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,199 talked about a lot, but there was I can't remember which one it was 476 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:19,440 now, but there was a metropolis in Greece that some centuries ago celebrated the 477 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,679 feast of Thomas Aquinas. Hmmm, really, I mean, oh yeah, 478 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,000 yeah, yeah. In fact, I think there are recordings available of his 479 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:31,679 hymns, Orthodox hymns for Thomas Aquinas. Now, is that still happening, 480 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:37,840 No, it's not. But you know, he was another example of someone 481 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,599 that through his writings, because there's a whole like Orthodox history of engagement with 482 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,159 the writings of Thomas Aquinas. Ye, through his writings, at least in 483 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:51,079 one place, for a while he became celebrated as a saint. It did 484 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:54,639 not last. And I know there are some like for example, there's a 485 00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:01,960 pilgrimage site our Lady of Walsingham in England that is recognized by the Orthodox and 486 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,840 that the Orthodox go to on pilgrimages, but that is from after the schism. 487 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,679 It's like, yeah, it's got an Orthodox chapel there, Yeah, 488 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:14,800 exactly that that I think is maintained by an Orthodox nun. You know. 489 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,039 So I want to give one final example before we start talking about Lithuania. 490 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,960 But I just kind of wanted to set up these patterns that exist, that 491 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:27,039 exists everywhere in church history. There's thousands more we could probably talk about. 492 00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:34,239 So a writer named Lorenzo Scupolis, the sixteenth century Roman Catholic priest, and 493 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,599 he wrote a book called Spiritual Combat. It's about I mean, it's it's 494 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:45,039 about what it says on the label. So this this, this work became 495 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:51,440 very interesting to a lot of Orthodox Christians. And in the eighteenth century, 496 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,079 Saint Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, you know, the guy who puts together 497 00:35:55,119 --> 00:36:00,880 the Rudder and the ex and malugtai on, you know, and the Ortho 498 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:05,119 Orthodox, like the most Orthodox. Yes, yes, people look at him 499 00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:07,920 as like super hardcore, you know, anti everything. I don't like. 500 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:13,840 H he takes this work and edits it a little and puts it out in 501 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,239 Greek. I mean, this is again, this is about sixteenth century Catholic 502 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:24,960 priest. Right. And then it gets further revised and published in Russian by 503 00:36:25,039 --> 00:36:29,760 Saint theof on the Recluse. Wow, so Saint Theophon, you know, 504 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,599 does even more with it. Right, So Saint Nicadimus just sort of edits 505 00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:36,280 a little bit. I'm not sure how extensive the edits were, but Sat 506 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,559 Theophon's edits were much more extensive that I know. And then you know, 507 00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:43,480 there's even a sort of set of volumes that were actually put up I can 508 00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:45,679 still your press a long long time ago, with titles like Victory and the 509 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:52,599 Unseen Warfare and sort of stuff like this that was a sort of layman's version 510 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:54,320 of this, you know, like taking it apart and looking at it and 511 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,519 explaining it and so forth. Right. So this is a Catholic text that's 512 00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:01,639 made its way into the Orthodox Church and actually been handled and promulgated by saints. 513 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,719 Yeah, by saints. You know. Again, no one doubts the 514 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,159 orthodoxy of Saint Nicodemus, No one doubts the orthodoxy of Saint theF on the 515 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:13,719 Reckless. These are significant saints of the you know, relatively modern period. 516 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,960 That's amazing. I mean, but I think in some ways to me at 517 00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:22,199 least, what it does is it it's I think it. It's there to 518 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,679 also keep us humble and to be careful, you know, to understand that 519 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,360 God we don't we don't ConTroll. We have the canons and we should live 520 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,599 by them. But that also God is not in the box that we think 521 00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:36,679 he is. God does not you know, it's like we need God and 522 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,480 God does not need you could say, does not need us. In the 523 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:45,639 same way, let's say that that that that God is is manifesting himself where 524 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:52,079 where he pleases. That's right, Okay, So let's talk about Lithuania, 525 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:55,679 all right, with all that background. Yeah, you know, everywhere you 526 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,360 go there pretty much every Catholic church and I've even seen some of this and 527 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,679 some of the Orthodox churches, although most the Orthodox churches are there are very 528 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,800 Russian, but almost everywhere you go you see the sun cross, right, 529 00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:14,719 and so it's and again it's what it says in the label, right, 530 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:20,000 it's a cross with a sun sort of imagery integrated into it. There's lots 531 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,480 of versions of this, and sometimes you'll see a crescent moon at the bottom, 532 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,480 which is interesting. You know, Orthodox Christians seeing a crescent moon at 533 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,400 the bottom of a cross, we largely might think of, okay, this 534 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,119 is about conquest of Islam. But in the Baltic case, it's not. 535 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,400 You know, the Baalts are not conquering Islam. It exists there, but 536 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,280 only it's always been a minority, you know. Yeah, so it's the 537 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,400 sun and moon, you know. And this cross was a pagan symbol. 538 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:47,840 It was absolutely a pagan symbol. And now you see it on the top 539 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,880 of almost every single church in Lithuania. You know, there are no Lithuanian 540 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,440 Pagans to the round, although there are some neopagans, but that's a newer 541 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:04,199 thing. They're just LARPing anyways, God bless them. I think that is 542 00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:12,239 true. So so one a really interesting bit of material culture from pagan Lithuania 543 00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:15,280 is something and I'm no I'm going to mispronounce this, but you probably don't 544 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,039 have a lot of Actually you do have some Lithuanian fans, you do it. 545 00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:22,159 I met some of them when I went to Lithuania. In fact, 546 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:25,119 when I gave I gave a year ago, when I gave a talk at 547 00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:29,599 a church in Vilnius. One of the first questions that someone asked me was, 548 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,760 do you know Jonathan Page. It's like, well, he's Canadian's Canadian. 549 00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:36,800 Why do that mean that I need to go to Lithuanian I've always wanted 550 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,159 to go. Oh you totally. If you go, I will go with 551 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,880 you, all right, if you would accept me to go as your fellow 552 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,199 pilgrim, let's do it. I think you would find it a very interesting 553 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,480 place to go. So yeah, So there's a figure from Baltic Paganism called 554 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:58,039 the diev Dibis, And what that word means literally is god maker. So 555 00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:01,760 a god maker is a carver of religious images. Oh, there you go. 556 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,159 So that's that's what that is. Uh. And so back in the 557 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,519 day, you know, this guy would have been essentially carving idols, right, 558 00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:17,519 idols and also then used in actual pagan worship, but then also essentially 559 00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:25,960 pagan icons that are used for devotional purposes, right, right, And so 560 00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,920 these are these traditionally were placed up on top of wooden poles. And so 561 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:37,000 this is called I know I'm going to get this wrong too, couplet stus, 562 00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:39,880 a couplet stupas, which means chapel pillar now is sort of the idea. 563 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,559 So you can see that where couplet is related part of that that piece 564 00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:46,440 couplet is related the word chapel, and so it would be a wooden pole 565 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,159 and then on top of it you would have this this carved statue and then 566 00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:55,519 there would usually be a roof over top of it, and then often the 567 00:40:55,559 --> 00:41:02,880 sun cross on top. Right, So this uh survives. But now if 568 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,159 you find one of these things, and they're actually all over Lithuania, like 569 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,239 you could just be driving along and just see one by the side of the 570 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:14,079 road, often in the middle of nowhere. You know, if you see 571 00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,880 one, now you're not going to find Djevas or Pericunas. You know, 572 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,440 who are these these Baltic gods. You're not going to find them on the 573 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:28,079 coupled stupas. You're going to see. Most often there's a figure called Rupentoyellis. 574 00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:34,159 So Rupentoyellis Is is Christ as he's going to his passion. So there's 575 00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:37,880 sort of two different poses you'll see him, like his face and his hands 576 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,679 like this often called the pensive Christ, or you sometimes see him standing and 577 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,920 bound. You know, his hands are bound. Yeah, so this is 578 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:51,239 Rupinoyelis often called the Pensive Christ. That's the most Russian tradition of that too. 579 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,400 Of like in some of the remote places of Russia they have this whole 580 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,840 carving tradition with that figure very important. Where do you think they got it? 581 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:01,719 Yeah, yeah, it's probably it's from there. It's from the Baltics, 582 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,920 and of course it spreads into it's throughout the former Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, 583 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,880 so you've got it in Poland as well. They've got it in Bilarus, 584 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:15,960 they've got it in the Ukraine. Yeah. Often, then you'll see if 585 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,280 you don't have rupinto Yelis there you'll see the Virgin Mary. You'll see lots 586 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,480 of saints, especially Saint George is pretty popular. Also, of course the 587 00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:32,960 Catholic Saint Casimir, who is the Catholic Patron of Lithuania. Not an Orthodox 588 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,920 saint, but he's he's their big saint. He's buried there in their national 589 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:43,920 cathedral. So related to that, you'll also see again the same the carver 590 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:52,199 or the wood carver called a krijbis which means crossmaker. Uh. And you 591 00:42:52,239 --> 00:43:00,480 know, the the Lithuanian standing crosses are basically an extension of this, Uh, 592 00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:04,719 do you have have Dibis practice. That's the name of the person, 593 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,239 but I don't remember what the name of the practice itself is. But it's 594 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,840 an extension of that. But it's but obviously focusing on the cross itself, 595 00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:13,960 right, And they can be incredibly ornate. Yeah, you know, I 596 00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:17,119 just made one by the way, Oh really, Yes, three meters like 597 00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:22,880 nine foot cross with a single mass that that goes into the ground and it's 598 00:43:22,039 --> 00:43:25,480 three goes into three, and there's a Mother God and Saint John and the 599 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:28,760 Sun and the moon at the top, and a little roof at the at 600 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,719 the top. Yeah. Yeah, massive project, yeah yeah. Uh. 601 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,960 And so sometimes there will be little statues embedded right at the point where the 602 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:42,239 cross pieces meet, usually Christ again often usually the rupe andto yellows, but 603 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,400 it can be other figures sometimes too. And again you'll see these by the 604 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,679 side of the road. They will be placed there sometimes in commemoration of an 605 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:55,280 event or of people. A lot of pious people just put them in their 606 00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,239 yard, like so you'll still be this ten to fifteen tall cross in the 607 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,679 front yard, you know. And a lot of churches have them in the 608 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,440 churchyard. Yeah, as well so. And then of course the classic you 609 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,719 know place where people might have seen these is the Hill of Crosses, where 610 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,760 there's hundreds of thousands of them, and there's actually a legal limit on the 611 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,400 size of a cross you're allowed to place there, which is nine meters. 612 00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:28,880 That's amazing. If you're gonna if when we go to Lithuania, decide you 613 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,079 want to put across there, just beware it's less. I love it. 614 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:37,320 It's hilarious because it's like in North America, you would expect it to be 615 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,679 like five feet or something something like some ridiculous nothing. It's like, oh, 616 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:43,960 there is a legal limit, but nine meters, don't go beyond that. 617 00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:46,760 These things tower over you. I mean it envelops you. It envelops 618 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,400 you. And you know this is in many ways, this is a spiritual 619 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,360 heart of this country. And it's not just Roman Catholics that go there, 620 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,480 although obviously mostly Catholics. You can go there and you can see Orthodox crosses 621 00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:02,679 there and and Protestants go there as well, you know, and often you 622 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,559 see people writing on many of them. It's usually lists of names of people 623 00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:09,400 that they want to pray for, and most of the writing of courses in 624 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,679 Lithuanian, but you can see many languages, many many languages from all over 625 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,199 the world. People that have made their pilgrimage brought their cross there. So, 626 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,519 I mean it's largely regarded as a kind of a Catholic place of pilgrimage, 627 00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:25,000 but Orthodox Christians go there. I've been there twice now myself. I've 628 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,880 placed across there both times and brought, you know, two of my children 629 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,000 with me. They placed across there with the names that they wanted to pray 630 00:45:32,039 --> 00:45:37,920 for on there. You know, what is the this hill? What is 631 00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:40,360 the story about the hill? Like, why why do people go there? 632 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,280 What's the what's the legend or the story related. Yeah, so there's a 633 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,000 lot of there's a lot of different origin stories for the Hill of Crosses, 634 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,360 but the one that I think is the truest one is so the Hill of 635 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:59,480 Crosses seems to have arisen during the Russian Imperial period. That's the earliest references 636 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,519 to it, So you're talking like early nineteenth century possibly, And there's a 637 00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:08,480 tradition that there was a man who had a daughter who was very very ill, 638 00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:13,880 and so he was at her bedside every night praying to God to please 639 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,920 heal her. And then finally, after a long time of this, the 640 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,079 Virgin Mary appears to him and says, take up your cross and bring it 641 00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:28,800 to the place that I'll show you. And so this man becomes a Kris 642 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:34,840 Durbis and he fashions this wooden cross and he starts carrying it, you know, 643 00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:37,719 and it's a long distance. And then finally she appears to him him 644 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,559 again and says, this is the place. And so now Lithuania has no 645 00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:46,440 mountains. So actually the word gunless for mountain is just means a hill, 646 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,800 you know, So they'll use the same word like they would have used coulness 647 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,920 to refer to the mountains that we have here in North America. But they 648 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,320 know full well that there's no comparison between them, you know. So it's 649 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,679 a hill, and it's kind of a long hill, so it's spread out, 650 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,719 you know, over a ways and has a couple of peaks to it. 651 00:47:06,639 --> 00:47:10,159 And so he places the cross in this hill and then he begins to 652 00:47:10,159 --> 00:47:15,119 walk back home. And then when he is reaching his where his home is, 653 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:21,280 two people come running out of the house to greet him. One is 654 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,480 his wife and one is his heeled daughter, who now can not only stand 655 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,239 but run, you know, and so so then it the tradition then grows 656 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,039 that you if you're going to go there, you bring a cross, and 657 00:47:34,039 --> 00:47:37,400 it can be I mean, people bring crosses that are like this, everything 658 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:43,400 from this to you know, nine meters. Smaller ones people will hang from 659 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,840 bigger ones. So you can find crosses that have like hundreds of crosses hanging 660 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:52,239 from them, leaning up against them. I mean it's just a mess of 661 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,880 crosses, but a beautiful mess. Yeah. And then you know, it 662 00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,599 gets especially during the Soviet period, the Soviets of course hate this place, 663 00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:04,800 so they would bulldoze it down or light it on fire and they would wipe 664 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,440 it all out, and then overnight it starts growing back because people just come 665 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:15,280 and they place their cross and they pray their prayers. You know, some 666 00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:21,639 place the cross there because they're praying for someone who's ill, or praying for 667 00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:24,639 someone who has died. Some place it because of a happy occasion, like 668 00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:29,000 the first time I went. For instance, there's a woman who's bringing along 669 00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:31,639 her boy and says, come on, let me show you the place where 670 00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:37,239 I put the cross when you were baptized, you know, So that kind 671 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,239 of thing. Again, it's a place of sort of universal Christian pilgrimage. 672 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:47,920 They don't check your religious ID card at the door. So yeah, another 673 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,199 one that's probably a little bit controversial from Lithuanian history, and people might not 674 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:58,840 realize it's Lithuanian history, isn't the Orthodox Saint Peter and Mohila. So Saint 675 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:06,559 Peter Mohila is the Metropolitan of Kiev and during after the the you know, 676 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,239 the loss of the churches to the to the unions, So Kiev of course 677 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:16,199 in Ukraine, but the Grand Duchy of Lithuania includes most of Belarus and Ukraine 678 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,400 at that point in history, and at that point is actually then part of 679 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,800 the the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. Right, So St. Peter Mochila. A 680 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,320 lot of people pointed him and say he's a Latinizer, you know, he's 681 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,960 just he's using Latin textbooks, he's a Latinizer, he whatever. But he's 682 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,719 a saint, he's an actual Orthodox saints. So that means you have to 683 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,360 deal with what he did. We can critique it, but there's actually been 684 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,639 you know, so some scholars of course, like father George Fluroowsky really critiques 685 00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:47,039 him and says, this is a Latinization and so on and so forth. 686 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,880 But there's other scholarship that you can read now that essentially says, well, 687 00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:57,639 Saint Peter was actually trying to do with Catholic theology that was around him and 688 00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,440 that he had to deal with because he's living in it. Mm hmm. 689 00:50:00,039 --> 00:50:04,679 He was trying to do with that like the early Church fathers were doing with 690 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:09,440 pagan philosophy. So I'm not an expert to tell you what the truth of 691 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,159 the matter is, but I mean, this is another way of interpreting him, 692 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,599 and it's worth kind of exploration. So that's actually a theological engagement. 693 00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:22,239 It's not just sort of material culture stuff. It's actually like language and so 694 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,679 forth, you know. So that's a really he's a really interesting figure. 695 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,199 I want to finish up by talking about a couple of icons, but before 696 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,400 I do that, there's a significant practice that I want to mention. So 697 00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:42,079 in Lithuania, there's a two day holiday called Valinus so villainus from the word 698 00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:46,880 I think it's vellous, which means soul. So Velinus is November first and 699 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:52,039 second. Basically exactly, it's the feast of all saints and all souls, 700 00:50:52,840 --> 00:51:00,599 and in the Catholic tradition and the practice in Lithuania on those days is to 701 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:06,360 visit the graves of your departed loved ones. So if you go to Lithuanian 702 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,679 cemeteries, they're not like most cemeteries in North America, where it's just ropeon 703 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,320 row of stones and they've hired somebody to mow the lawn and there might be 704 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,679 flowers that people put that die, you know, whatever. You know, 705 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,199 there's sometimes there's more to that, more than that. But I mean most 706 00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:28,360 cemeteries in the US, I don't know about Canada, but mostly pretty bare. 707 00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:35,840 Yeah, in Lithuania, every single grave plot is outlined in either cement 708 00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:43,039 or stones, so they're like little or sometimes a fence, and they're all 709 00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:46,159 like flower gardens, and they're immaculately taken care of. And it's not because 710 00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:50,519 there's some gardener. Can you imagine how much work that would be. You 711 00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:54,360 know, they're that way because the family takes care of them. I went 712 00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:00,599 to the cemetery where my ancestors are buried, and I went to the grave 713 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:06,119 and we found the grave actually of my family, which was an astonishing moment, 714 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,000 you know, and it was immaculately taken care of. Everything was in 715 00:52:10,039 --> 00:52:15,119 perfect order, perfect order, right. So Lithuanians visit the graves of their 716 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,360 relatives twice a year, once on the day that is the anniversary of the 717 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:25,519 death, and then also at Villainous right, and particularly at Velinus, they 718 00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:30,480 will bring candles and place them there. And so if you go to cemeteries 719 00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:36,360 in Lithuania at night during Villinus, it's almost like another city with all the 720 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,679 candles. I mean, it's just you can see an outline of the cemetery 721 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:44,079 in candles, and it's just completely filled in with these little flickering flames. 722 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:52,119 So Orthodox Christians do this in Lithuania on those days, even though those that's 723 00:52:52,159 --> 00:52:55,280 not the Orthodox beast of all souls or of the departed, but they do 724 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,639 it. They visit the graves of their relatives, they put the candles, 725 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,239 there are specific prayers to be prayed when you go there. Now, it's 726 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,639 interesting, there's a sort of Orthodox adaptation that's occurred. So the Saturday before 727 00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:12,519 the feast of Saint Demetrius at the Slniki is traditionally a Saturday of souls, 728 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,000 right, we think of usually the ones in Lent, but or around Lent, 729 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,800 but that's also a Saturday of Souls traditionally in the Orthodox Church the Saturday 730 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,199 before October twenty sixth, right, So of course most Orthodox Christian Lithuinia on 731 00:53:24,199 --> 00:53:30,400 the old calendar, so that would mean that it's about November eighth or whatever 732 00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:34,920 is when that or actually it's a Saturday before November eighth, which sometimes would 733 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,199 kind of coincide with Villainous, right right right, you know, because of 734 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,000 course Catholics are on the new calendar. So what they do is they visit 735 00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:46,320 the cemeteries on Villainous and then on that Saturday, that's usually right after they 736 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:50,280 go to church and they pray for the departy in church. So they created 737 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,920 this hybrid practice. You know. Again, they're just they're they're taking something 738 00:53:55,119 --> 00:54:00,760 from Catholic practice and they're engaging in it themselves. And there are you talk 739 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,039 to Lithuanian Christians and a lot of them will say, now, I don't 740 00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:07,039 know if the truth of this. A lot of them will say, oh, 741 00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:12,800 Villainous actually is is pre Christian, which is believable, you know, 742 00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:17,360 totally believable. So yeah, so they make this kind of annual pilgrimage to 743 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,599 the graves of their family. And again it's not because it's a fea stay 744 00:54:21,599 --> 00:54:25,960 in the Orthodox calendar. Now, those those are public holidays in Lithuania. 745 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,199 One of the advantages of what is at least still officially a Christian nation. 746 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,760 They have religious freedom, but you also get November first and second off from 747 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,360 work in school. You also get you know, August fifteenth off, you 748 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:43,159 get you know, June twenty fourth, you know, like in fact, 749 00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:49,400 Saint John's Day in June is a it's called Nianis is a huge holiday there, 750 00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:52,800 huge huge holiday, right, and a fun little thing. I was 751 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,639 talking one of my Lithuanian friends one time because we had started to see fireflies 752 00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,400 in our yard. I don't know if you have them where you are, 753 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,159 And I asked him, I said, do you have fireflies in Lithuania. 754 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,320 He said, oh, yeah, we have fireflies. We call them jon 755 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,880 Vabalis. I was like, what is jon vabalis means? He says, 756 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:13,159 it means Saint John's bug. So they literally name the fireflies after the forerunner 757 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,679 there in Lithuania. Mm hmm. Probably because of the probably because of the 758 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:21,239 summer feast time of your June twenty fourth, that's right, right, exactly 759 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,320 exactly. Okay, So I want to I want to finish up with Lithuania. 760 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:28,239 Talk about two different icons. One that a lot of people probably know 761 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,760 about, and I think we talked about when I was with you with Richard, 762 00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:35,480 when we talked about this documentary The Wolf and the Cross before, and 763 00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,599 that's Our Lady at the Gate of the Dawn. I won't go into a 764 00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:42,239 lot of detail because we talked about it before, but it's worth noting that 765 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,840 this icon, which is on above a gate in Vilnius, the capital, 766 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:53,639 there's some possibility that it might have an Orthodox origin. There's some possibility that 767 00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:58,800 it might have spent some time in Orthodox churches, but there's no good evidence 768 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,480 for that even if all of that is true. For most of its life, 769 00:56:01,599 --> 00:56:05,400 it's been in a Catholic chapel. In fact, one of the times 770 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,320 I went to see it in my most recent trip, mass was going on 771 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,480 right in front of it when I went there, right this is the national 772 00:56:12,679 --> 00:56:15,719 icon of Lithuania, Our Lady at the Gate of the Dawn, and it's 773 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,000 it's the Theotoko says. She's depicted in Revelation chapter twelve, clothed in the 774 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,360 sun, the moon at her feet, a crown of twelve stars like that's 775 00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:28,760 that's the image, right, And a copy of this icon was very likely 776 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,280 to be given to Saint Seraphra Mupsatov and is the famous icon in front of 777 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,960 which he prayed and in front of which he died. Yeah, you know, 778 00:56:35,079 --> 00:56:38,199 given to him, probably in Kiev, because veneration of this icon spread 779 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:44,280 throughout you know, the Polish Lithuania Commonwealth, Grand actually of Lithuania. You 780 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:51,280 know, Orthodox Christians make pilgrimage to that icon, venerate that icon. It 781 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,320 has a feast day on the Orthodox calendar. This, as far as anyone 782 00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,960 has ever known, Catholic icon is celebrated on the day after Native and local 783 00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:07,159 Orthodox Christians, including the bishop, including clergy, go and pray. I'm 784 00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:10,559 eleven in front of this icon on the day after Christmas in this Catholic chapel, 785 00:57:12,199 --> 00:57:15,079 right, and it is you know, this is the calendar of the 786 00:57:15,119 --> 00:57:21,559 Russian Orthodox Church has this iconon lesser known and this is one of the visits 787 00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:23,880 I made in my most recent stop in Lithuania. So there is a monastery 788 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,800 in your Konas. Soconus is sort of the second city of Lithuania. It's 789 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,039 in the center of the country. It was for a time the capital during 790 00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:37,480 the inter war period, because Vilnius was held by the Polish during that period, 791 00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,239 and so the capital gets moved to Konas and the second largest city. 792 00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:49,719 So there's a monastery in Rconas called Preziseless Monastery. So Preziseless was built, 793 00:57:50,039 --> 00:57:53,239 as I recall correctly, in the either the sixteenth or seventeenth century, and 794 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,440 it was built as a Catholic monastery, right, so it's built by Catholics 795 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,559 for Catholics. And you know, this is the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth period, 796 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,519 and so Catholicism is the official state religion of the whole commonwealth. Of course, 797 00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:12,000 there's still Orthodox minority, a significant Orthodox minority, especially if you look 798 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,239 at the areas that are now Ukraine and Bilarus. But even still in Lithuanian 799 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:20,119 proper there was some Orthodox. So Presisis Monastery. One of the things that's 800 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,599 made for this monastery is an icon of the Virgin Mary, and so it's 801 00:58:23,639 --> 00:58:28,599 called Our Lady of Pezeisis right, And if you look at it, it's 802 00:58:28,679 --> 00:58:30,760 it's painted probably by an Italian. It seems to have been a gift from 803 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,960 the pope. If you look at it, it's a very Western sort of 804 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,119 Renaissance depiction. You know, it's it's not sensual at all, right, 805 00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:44,679 it's actually very restrained. You know, there's a sort of a circle of 806 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,360 roses in the icons, so I mean it's not a businessine ict at all, 807 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,119 like a circle of roses, like if you put that on an icon, 808 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,599 you know, that would get returned probably, you know. And so 809 00:58:55,679 --> 00:59:00,000 it's definitely a very Western depiction painted by the Italian gift from Pope for this 810 00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:06,800 Catholic monastery, okay, and it's venerated, you know, miracles start to 811 00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:12,440 be associated with this icon. So in the late eighteenth century, the partition 812 00:59:12,599 --> 00:59:16,079 of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth is complete with a third partition and Lithuania becomes part 813 00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:22,519 of the Russian Empire. Okay. So the Russian Empire, I'll just say 814 00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:28,400 was not kind to Lithuania and in many cases engaged in religious persecution, which 815 00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:30,639 if you're interested in that episode four which has not yet been made, but 816 00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:34,440 episode four of The Wolf from the Cross is going to be talking about Lithuanian 817 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,760 the Russian Empire. It's not going to be a comfortable story for a lot 818 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:42,159 of people. It's just the reality the Russian Empire engaged in religious persecution of 819 00:59:42,199 --> 00:59:46,440 non orthodox and so one of the things that happened was churches and even monasteries 820 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:52,599 that belong to the Catholic Church were taken and given to the Orthodox right. 821 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:59,239 And Prezisis Monastery is one of those places. So in the I think it 822 00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:05,639 was in the nineteenth it becomes an Orthodox monastery. And I should mention, 823 01:00:05,719 --> 01:00:09,119 by the way, you know, the architecture and the interior decor of this 824 01:00:09,239 --> 01:00:15,079 monastery is absolutely astonishingly beautiful. It's really something very different from a lot of 825 01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:20,639 Western churches, definitely different from Eastern churches. But it's really really worth looking 826 01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:25,679 up anyway. So what do they do with this icon that's like the altarpiece, 827 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,559 you know, so it's a major, very prominent image in this church. 828 01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:32,960 What do they do with this icon? They say, oh, look 829 01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,280 at this Italian thing, Let's get this out of here. Get some good 830 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:42,719 Russian iconography in here, you know. No, they keep it, yeah, 831 01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:50,079 and they venerate it, and they take the Catholic feast day of the 832 01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:55,199 icon and put it on the Russian calendar, so it becomes a feast of 833 01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:04,559 the Orthodox Church of this miracle working Catholic icon Orthodox Christians make pilgrimage to it. 834 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,400 They especially will go on the dor mission. The feast day is July 835 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:15,000 fifteenth. It remains on the Russian Orthodox calendar if you go there. Now 836 01:01:15,039 --> 01:01:20,000 it is once again a Catholic monastery. And so it was given back and 837 01:01:20,119 --> 01:01:24,280 when Lithuini became independent in nineteen fifteen, I think it was from the Russian 838 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:29,280 Empire, a lot of churches that have been taken from the Catholics were given 839 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:34,000 back to them, you know, and so it reverts to being a Catholic 840 01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:38,199 monastery. So here's a couple of fun details. Not only do Orthodox Christians 841 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:45,280 continue to make pilgrimage to this Catholic monastery to venerate this wonderworking icon that has 842 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,480 a completely Catholic origin, but it was sort of Orthodox for a while. 843 01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:54,719 The Orthodox Church maintains the feast day of the icon, even though the Catholics 844 01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:58,960 have moved it. So what you're looking at when you see the July fifteenth 845 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:05,440 beast is the old Catholic feast day maintained by the Orthodox Church even now, 846 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,119 right, Yeah, so this is still like you can look this up. 847 01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:15,760 The Russians call it Puziska Yaya, which I'm sure I'm probably mispronouncing, but 848 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,159 it's probably pretty close. But the name of the monastery is Prezseless, you 849 01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:25,440 know. And so again this is an example of this sort of hoorous border. 850 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,599 Yeah right, it's you know, one could look at that and say, 851 01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:35,719 ah, syncretism, you know, but what's happening is simply as we 852 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,920 looked at the tradition of the Church from the Bible, early Christianity and so 853 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:45,000 forth. Right. So, so those are just some examples that I could 854 01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:45,920 point out. I mean, there's there's a number of other things that we 855 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:52,639 could mention, like burial practices. For instance, Orthodox burials in Lithuania tends 856 01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:55,079 to rather than having the cross at the foot, which is sort of the 857 01:02:55,119 --> 01:03:00,119 Orthodox tradition, they often will put the at the head, which is you 858 01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:05,559 know in the West. Yeah, you know, there's other things you could 859 01:03:05,599 --> 01:03:09,440 mention like that. But yeah, so you know, in our life, 860 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,320 I mean, it's like in our life. This is at least from my 861 01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,039 life, it is true, you know, to be honest, it's like, 862 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,280 you know, you're not going to take my Christmas songs away from you. 863 01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,079 I don't know what to tell you. It's like, I love Western 864 01:03:21,159 --> 01:03:23,519 Christmas songs. I think they're beautiful. I think they're wonderful. I wouldn't 865 01:03:23,519 --> 01:03:27,679 want them sung in liturgy, but you're not going to completely take them away 866 01:03:27,679 --> 01:03:30,159 from me, Like you will hear them in my house and we will sing 867 01:03:30,199 --> 01:03:31,760 them and we will love them. You know. So there's some of that 868 01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:35,920 all over the place, I think. Yeah. I mean, like just 869 01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:39,400 like, let's just look at Orthodox Christianity here in the West. We've taken 870 01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:45,719 a whole bunch of stuff from other Christians, largely without a lot of analysis 871 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,239 in many cases. Right, So Sunday School, I mean Sundays, I 872 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,719 thought exactly. Sunday Sunday School is the probably the most obvious seminaries. I 873 01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,719 mean, you know, now seminaries exist in Orthodox history before it ever made 874 01:03:57,719 --> 01:04:02,320 it to hear. But seminaries are not the ancient Christian tradition, Like there 875 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,920 are other ways of training clergy. You know, you mentioned Christmas carols. 876 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:12,599 I mean that's a really, really good example, Christmas carols, and you 877 01:04:12,639 --> 01:04:15,199 know it's great. You know, many many Orthodox in the West will seeing 878 01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:19,840 the Christmas carols from wherever their tradition is from. But I mean you can 879 01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,559 still get to hear joy to the world and Silent Night, and you know 880 01:04:23,599 --> 01:04:28,840 the stuff that's that's just the English language Christmas Carol repertory. You know. 881 01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,800 Another great example I think of this is the fact that we have parish membership. 882 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,679 Yeah, yeah, that's not a thing mostly on the other side of 883 01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:44,079 the Atlantic in Orthodox parish councils and all that stuff. Parish councils are another 884 01:04:44,079 --> 01:04:47,440 big example of that. And you know something that's dear near and dear to 885 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:55,679 both you and me, media using using especially modern media for Orthodox purposes, 886 01:04:56,159 --> 01:05:00,679 the Catholics in the process where they're long long before us. Right, So 887 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,199 all right, so I mean, like, what, what's the takeaway from 888 01:05:03,239 --> 01:05:05,960 all of this stuff. Yeah, it doesn't mean that anything goes. I 889 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,639 think it's important to be careful. It's like, we're not at all saying 890 01:05:09,719 --> 01:05:12,119 that. All right, so then you know whatever, like it all, 891 01:05:12,159 --> 01:05:15,320 it's all, it's all. But it's really about hierarchy, you know. 892 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,880 It's usually just an understanding of hierarchies that we have. We have the main 893 01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,960 traditions, we have the canons, we have all of these things which guide 894 01:05:23,039 --> 01:05:27,119 us, and then we have to understand that those are not like a machine. 895 01:05:27,159 --> 01:05:31,119 They're not like a computer that runs and that that tabulates it's an organic 896 01:05:31,199 --> 01:05:36,360 reality that's connected to the world, and there's room for God to act within 897 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:42,000 that in ways that surprise us constant. Yeah, I mean, you know, 898 01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:45,760 like so like why does the church do this? How does the church 899 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,159 do this? The first question I think is easier to answer than the second 900 01:05:48,159 --> 01:05:53,320 one. But I should say it's not about putting a stamp of approval on 901 01:05:53,360 --> 01:06:00,000 non orthodox religion. Obviously not the same Old Testament that you know pokes fund 902 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:06,880 at the gods of the nations also steals their stuff, you know, right, 903 01:06:08,079 --> 01:06:11,159 So so it's not about putting a stamp of approval. It's not right. 904 01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:16,039 It also doesn't happen without creative engagement, like there always changes me to 905 01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:21,840 the work to make it conformed to Orthodox Christianity, and it can be maybe 906 01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:28,599 a little uncomfortable to see that in process change clean it's not a clean thing. 907 01:06:28,639 --> 01:06:31,239 It's metals and and you know, I've I've studied this, and I 908 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,000 intend to study this a lot longer, but I haven't found like a theory 909 01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:41,119 of it, like this is how you do that well or correctly? You 910 01:06:41,119 --> 01:06:44,199 know, But it's it's still a thing. It's it's happening. Right, 911 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,199 So like the why of it, right, it's because whatever is being adopted 912 01:06:49,239 --> 01:06:53,440 and adapted. I think it's important to put those two words together. In 913 01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:57,440 this adopted and adapted it was seen as being for the salvation of Christians. 914 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,679 Like, it's not about like, oh, I want to adulterate my pure 915 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,920 or or oh I'm some kind of you know, liberal acumenist. That's not 916 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:13,719 what's going on. That's that's not what's going on. It's it's like, 917 01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:16,559 oh, here's something that we can use for the salvation of people. And 918 01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:21,960 like I said this in the most recent episode of Wolf Lacross, an icon 919 01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:29,360 of the Theotokos is an icon of the Theotokos. Yeah, like it is 920 01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:31,639 what it is. Like it might have been made by somebody that I would 921 01:07:31,679 --> 01:07:35,800 regard as as a heretic. It might have spent all of its life in 922 01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:40,800 the hands of people who are not Orthodox Christians, but it still is what 923 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:45,320 it is, and the Church is able to recognize that and does recognize them. 924 01:07:45,119 --> 01:07:48,519 It's funny we have this saying now from the zeitgeist, love is love. 925 01:07:49,199 --> 01:07:51,519 Now they don't mean by that what I'm about to say, but love 926 01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:57,800 is love, which means that someone who's actually engaging in acts of love, 927 01:07:58,159 --> 01:08:03,239 real love, Christian love, is doing it, even if that person is 928 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:08,159 not a member of the right church. It is real. All truth is 929 01:08:08,159 --> 01:08:12,639 God's truth. I mean, Saint Justin Martyr very famously he talks about the 930 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:16,520 spermaticos, logos, right, the logos and seed form that he sees everywhere. 931 01:08:17,079 --> 01:08:19,600 I mean, he's looking at pagan philosophy, and we should remember the 932 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:24,720 pagan philosophers are not just not a bunch of Ivery Tower academics who never sully 933 01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:28,560 themselves with religion. These are actual demon worshippers. Yeah. Well, also, 934 01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:32,479 I mean it it's like read Plato, folks. It's there's stuff in 935 01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,439 Plato that you would blush at. And so you know, so the idea 936 01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:41,359 that we can read it as Christians and we can take the good and let 937 01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:45,399 leave the bad fall to the wayside is something that Christians did from the very 938 01:08:45,399 --> 01:08:48,279 beginning and continue to do through a whole history. Yeah, I mean this 939 01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:50,560 is you know, like, this is what Saint Basil says in that text 940 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,760 that I mentioned earlier. He says, be like the bee, right, 941 01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:57,439 this is the original b the bee, you know, go to the pagan 942 01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,880 flower, take what you need and leave the rest. That's that's what he 943 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:03,840 says. You know, he doesn't say, you know, don't go near 944 01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:08,880 that, right And and he's living in a time when paganism is on the 945 01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:14,399 wane. He doesn't have to do that. He's not he's not feeling pressure 946 01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,960 from the society. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, on the winning side at 947 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:20,399 that point. Yeah, yeah, late fourth century. I mean he's yeah, 948 01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:24,880 they're they're they're winning, you know. So I think that, you 949 01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,000 know, as if we look at this question of creative engagement, I believe 950 01:09:28,039 --> 01:09:30,560 that, particularly at this time of polarization, that we have so much of 951 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,880 that where it's really about lining up all the guns and blasting the other side, 952 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:40,000 which I mean polemic is sometimes appropriate. The church fathers do it, 953 01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:45,640 especially when someone is attacking or trying to undermine the church. They I've never 954 01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,399 seen them do it simply because someone who has a wrong belief or wrong practice 955 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:57,199 just exists. You know. It's really about it's it's a defensive thing to 956 01:09:57,279 --> 01:10:00,800 do. They're not being defense in the sense that we talk about it now, 957 01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:08,560 but they're being defenders. But they're actually defending against actual attacks. They're 958 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,640 not looking for enemies. They're not looking for people to debate, they're actually 959 01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:16,520 defending against real attacks. Right. And here's the thing. I believe that 960 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:24,000 if we can begin to understand this creative engagement better, not only can we 961 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,279 do it ourselves and God willing to do it well, probably with some stumbles 962 01:10:28,319 --> 01:10:30,600 along the way, like we're going to make some mistakes, but we can 963 01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:33,800 make them in good faith. But I think that this in many ways is 964 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:40,560 a way forward out of there are polarizing. It's a demonic spirit, actually 965 01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:45,439 the spirit of polarization. It's a way forward out of that because it's actually 966 01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:50,880 about humility and demons can't do humility. And it's not I would also say, 967 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,039 it's not just something that, oh, this is a good idea for 968 01:10:54,119 --> 01:10:57,840 now here in twenty twenty three. I think it's pretty clear this is what 969 01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,960 the Church has always done because the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof 970 01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:08,119 or as Saint Paul said, you know, whatever things are good, whatever 971 01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:11,840 things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are beautiful, think 972 01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,680 on these things. He didn't say whatever things are in this box that I'm 973 01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:21,600 presenting you with. It's whatever things. And he himself did this he took 974 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:27,359 some of these whatever things and made use of them. You know, so 975 01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:32,760 the same guy who said don't worship Zeus also took Zeus's poetry and applied it 976 01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,960 to it to God. That's right. Well, thanks father Andrew. This 977 01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,680 is amazing. I mean, you know, I'm gonna re listen to this 978 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,640 just for all the examples. There are so such wonderful examples that they can 979 01:11:44,199 --> 01:11:47,199 help us see just to what extent this has been happening. And you're really 980 01:11:47,239 --> 01:11:51,880 also bolstering the you know what, Richard and I's universal history position is, 981 01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:55,960 which is it? Like you said, this is something that Christians have always 982 01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:00,359 done, that even the Old Testament is already happening, and so we need 983 01:12:00,399 --> 01:12:04,439 to yeah, humility, move forward with humility and also attention, you know, 984 01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:09,079 and prayer. So thanks father Andrew. This has been wonderful. And 985 01:12:09,119 --> 01:12:13,279 also good luck, good luck with the continuation of the Wolf and the Cross. 986 01:12:13,279 --> 01:12:15,000 Can wait see all that. Thank you. It's a big it's a 987 01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,760 big project, bigger than I think we realized, but we decided we wanted 988 01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,439 to be big, so we're just going for it. I mean, it's 989 01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:27,199 gonna be nine episodes of two to three hours each so we just released episode 990 01:12:27,199 --> 01:12:29,800 three. So, as I like to say at the end of each episode, 991 01:12:30,239 --> 01:12:32,520 we've got a lot more stories to tell, all right, Thanks father 992 01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:33,439 Andrew, thank you