Good afternoon. You're listening to Gambling with an Edge. Now here are your
host Bob Dancer and Richard Munchkin. Good afternoon, welcome to Gambling with an
Edge. I'm Bob Dancer and I'm Richard Munchkin, and our guests today are
different than what they usually are. I am going to interview Richard, and
then Richard is going to interview me. And we've never done this before,
and we're not sure how it's going to work out, but let's find out.
So, Richard, you and Darryl were gambling partners for more than three
decades. So let's take a hypothetical amayment, not be hypothetical, assume um
twenty years ago, the early two thousands, you and Darryl found a whole
card play at Harrow's New Orleans. Now, I don't know if you've ever
played New Orleans, but for the sake of the discussion, we did so.
And let's kind of go through some of the nuts and bolts of the
play. So Harris New Orleans is um near the French Quarter and their arm
ten or more other hotels within three blocks of Harris New Orleans. So would
you and Ryl have stayed in the same hotel or in different hotels. Um.
Well, first of all, we did play Harris New Orleans twenty years
ago. Um and at that time, I don't know if it's changed,
but Harris New Orleans did not have a hotel themselves, so you had to
stay off property, which we would do anyway, um and um were there
was someone else with us as well, usually when we were playing back then.
UM, but um, we so definitely we would stay at another hotel.
And because it was not connected to the casino, I mean, we
weren't staying on a comp We would pay for the hotel and so yeah,
we would stay in the same room. And even if there were three or
four of us, we would often stay in the same room, not because
we couldn't afford another room, but just because everybody wanted to be talking long
into the night. One of the my favorite parts of the job actually was
the hotel room after the play or before or planning the play or whatever.
So yes, we would be together in a hotel room. All right,
So Harris New Orleans has at least four separate entrances, would you I'm assuming
you're not all four, all three of you coming in together at exactly the
same time, So how would you space it. Would you come in the
same entrance or would you come in different entrances or was that non important?
It is important, and we would not enter the casino at the same time
at all. So usually if it was a whole card play, or even
if it's not, even if it's another kind of play, we would stagger
entering the casino. If in particular, if it was a whole card play,
the reader would go in first and start looking around for a game.
And then, depending on how much, it doesn't matter what door you're going
in if there's a bit of time in between the entrances, so if you're
coming in fifteen minutes later, it doesn't matter, you know, if you
came in the same door as somebody else. So yeah, we would.
We would stagger the entrance. We would all be scouting until we found the
game that we wanted, and then the reader would sit down first. Now,
sometimes let's say that I was going to be the big player and I
found the game, I would sit down in the lucky seat and wait for
the reader to see me, at which point I would signal to him.
And we had a signal that meant take me out, you know, switch
seats with me. And in this case, for example, let's say I
would switch with the reader, I would walk away, and now maybe Daryl
would come sit down as the big player, and then maybe later I would
come back and join the table as well or not, or I might go
look for another game or whatever. So that's kind of the way we would
do. And by the way, that the idea about entering the casino together.
I've said in the past that I think the fact that I was a
dealer really helped me as a player. And I can't tell you how many
times I saw two guys walk into a casino together and then suddenly head off
in different directions, as if they don't know each other, you know.
So this was just me, you know, looking around the casino as I
was dealing or on the floor or whatever. I remember one time walking into
Harris in Las Vegas, and there were two guys in front of me,
and they walked in the door of the casino and and like walked off in
different directions, and I was like, Oh, these guys are up to
something, you know. So I just kind of followed one of them to
see where what they were doing. Where they were going, what table they
were, you know, and it turned out to be two guys who were
playing a whole card. Now if so, let's so there's this readable dealers
that you've found, and the dealers are is it forty minutes on twenty minutes
off at the normal dealers schedule? You know, it varies. Some places
it's they were twenty minutes at the table and then run to a different table
and they don't come back for you know, an hour and a half or
something, So it varies. Sometimes they have their own table, which is
obviously the best, and sometimes they run they run a rubber band, it's
called and they get sent to a different table each time. And then there's
a third option where there's like a four table rotation and they go twenty twenty
twenty off or three table routineous twenty twenty twenty off. You know, so
it just varies. Okay, So if it was going to be going to
keep coming back to the same table, say forty on twenty off, but
back to the same table, would you play during the twenty minutes that the
other dealer presumably who's not readable, was there or you want this, you
know, people who are knits will get up and go to the bathroom.
You know. The reader, of course, will stay. He's got to
stay in the seat. You know, people who are knits, who don't
want to give up anything, will get up and leave for the twenty minutes
and there's nothing I mean, I mean, it becomes really obvious when people
do that, but people do it. So we would usually stay and play
through. We might bet a little less than we were when the good dealer
was there, but usually we would stay. Now, if they're going to
be gone for an hour and twenty minutes or whatever because they're you know,
they go, they rotate to two other tables and then come back, well
then yeah, then we'd leave for the hour or whatever, but get back
to the table before the dealer came back, so we were already there when
they came back from that rotation. Well, if the dealer was readable and
it goes to another table, wouldn't you follow him to his new table?
No, not, unless there was a separate reader at the at the other
table. Again, it just looks too obvious if you're just following the dealer
around the casino. You know, it's fine if you're betting quarters or something,
but if you're trying to bet close to table max, you don't want
again. It just becomes too obvious. So if there were three of you,
and presumably you're off content at all the jobs, that's a big assumption.
Usually the reader is a very specialized skill, and a good reader is
hard is hard to find. So I mean, if it's a I mean,
you know, there were games, especially on carnival games, where the
dealer basically just put the card in your face. You know, you couldn't
not see it. They were so bad at some of these carnival games.
In that case, then yeah, anybody could read. And if there were
three of you, you would post a one of your readers on the next
table he would be at, and so your big player would move, but
your racial reader would stay. Yeah, and in that case it might be
good for the big player to get up before the dealer leaves and go to
the new table. And now suddenly the dealer gets their break and they moved
to your table, so it doesn't look like you're following them. It looks
like they followed you basically. Okay, Now at it Harris, New Orleans.
Usually it's good enough weather and the distances are short, you can walk
to the casino. But let's say the same kind of situation is in the
middle of Iowa in winter and there's no hotel within a few miles of the
casino. Oh yeah, that's okay in the ass, So you have to
drive and so so presumably runted a car and you come in the same car,
but one of you stays in the car for a while. How does
that work. Well, back twenty years ago, there were a lot fewer
places that had cameras in the parking lot, you know, So, so
yes, we would park far from the door and stagger going into the casino.
You know. Nowadays it's really better to have two cars, and even
then if you can park not in the because of these cameras all over the
parking lots. Now it's better if you can park not in the casino parking
lot. Many times, if there was a big win or or some heat
on the play, the big player would would just get a cab and not
take it to the hotel, but take it to somewhere like a Starbucks or
something like that, and then get picked up by the team later. You
know, And I, you know, one of the guys I worked with
one time walked back to the hotel. It was like seven miles at night,
you know, because because you know, there's been some heat on the
play and he just walked seven miles to go back to the hotel. Wow,
with a bunch of money or chipps in his pocket. Well he was
the reader, so well, yeah, he probably did have a bunch of
money and chips in his pocket. Yeah. Well, now you know when
when, um, when I was younger and stupider, UM, I had
a situation at UM well, I guess I could say the name now um
at Paula and which is kind of in the middle of nowhere in California.
There's really not much around. Um yeah, in southern California, southern California.
Yeah, and UM, so I was playing a whole card and um
they barred me. They came and barred me and um but they they really
had no idea what was going on because they didn't say a word to the
reader. And so I got up and I left. They were trying to
get me to go cash out, and I said no thanks, and I
just headed to the door and they were asking for ID and I was like,
no, I'm just leaving. And I left and I was parked in
their parking lot because there really isn't anywhere else to park, at least there
wasn't at that time. But now my reader is there, and where do
I go? So I drove on the edge of the parking lot. There
is a gas station, and so I drove to the gas station, and
I parked up at the gas station and here come a couple of security guards
on bicycles and they pull in and you know, blocking my car in,
not that I'm gonna take off at that point, and make a big show
of pulling out a notepad and you know, looking at my license plate and
writing down my license plate. So that was a mistake on my part.
I should have just headed down the road and then you know, after my
reader came out, he could call me and we could I could pick him
up somewhere. But so after they wrote down my license plate, that is
what happened. I drove down the road and and then you know, eventually
he got out and called me and I ended up picking him up down the
road somewhere. So let let me ask you a question now, or are
we still in this whole card scenario. Well, I have more for you
you'll have a chance to ask me. Okay, so you're talking about a
situation where cell phones are necessary part of calling each other in. But cell
phones were i don't know, mid nineties or something, the greatest invention for
advantaged players. Ever, it was just a nightmare before cell phones. Could
tell us a little bit about how it would be with about cell phones.
How would you, uh, how would you do these kind of things?
Well, it was all signaled. So before a play, we would agree
on a backup casino. So if if we if we can't find anything at
this casino, we're going to go to casino number two. And there was
a signal for that which was which meant go to the backup club. There
was a famous story on the Ken Houston team of a guy who they were
going to play at the Dunes. Now this is forty plus years ago.
They were going to play at the Dunes and the backup club was the Sahara,
and so they couldn't find a game at the Dunes, they gave the
signal. They go down to the Sahara and one of the guys just doesn't
show up, never shows up, And the next day they're back at the
apartment and the guy calls and he says, what happened to you, guys?
And they say, what happened to you? We were at the Sahara
And he says, I'm here right now at the Sahara and Reno, and
I never saw you guys. And this guy went to the There was a
Sahara in Reno, and another one in Tahoe, and of course the one
in Vegas. And for some reason, this Brady act thought the backup club
meant get on a plane and go to the Sahara and Reno anyway, so
we would have a backup club. And then at the end of the play,
usually the meeting place was and if you didn't find a game at the
backup club, then you would go to the meeting place. And the meeting
place was almost always the Peppermill restaurant on the Las Vegas Strip, which is
still there. It's kind of across the street from Circus Circus. And yeah,
that was that was always our our meeting place after plays or in between
plays or but yeah, many many messed up, you know, evenings because
of no not having the ability to communicate. Yeah, that does sound like
a nightmare now. It used to be on the show. Sometimes you would
miss a week or we would tape shows twice, and the answer was,
you're off playing a secret game, and that's what. That was a kind
of a running joke. And sometimes you were filming a movie in Texas or
somewhere, but on this air, we always would say, Munchkins is off
playing the secret game. Now, a few years ago, you actually were
playing a secret game, but it was a video poker game. And I
was disappointed that I was not part of that. But the general consensus was
I bring my own heat, and I'm so well known that I'm more likely
to be spied recognized. And if they can't figure out what Bob d Answer
is doing here, then yeah, that wouldn't be good. So I didn't
get part of it. But so what do you remember the playing? What
can you tell us about that? Oh? Well, I definitely remember the
play. But it's also it was a very very unusual play for me because
I had nothing to do with it. I mean I didn't find it,
I didn't manage it. I didn't recruit the people. Basically, I got
a phone call from someone that I really had not worked with much at all,
and I mean we knew each other and we were friendly and we had
worked with some mutual people to you know, but it was his play and
he called me and I you know, he told me what the game would
be worth hourly and said, you know, can you fly here tomorrow?
And I said, yeah, absolutely, And because it was a very very
high hourly, and this was a machine that was misspaying you know, um,
and it was misspaying in a way that was completely legal for unt so
you know, it wasn't like an ATM that was spending money out when it
shouldn't be. And I remember I said how much cash should I bring and
he said, oh, forty bucks. I was like, okay, he
goes, yeah, there's there's no variance at all. You just sit down
and start winning. So uh, you know, it was really enjoyable.
I ended up working with a bunch of guys I had never worked with before,
and they were very professional and and you know, it was a lot
the stars aligned correctly for a lot of really really great things to happen that
allowed us to win a lot more money than normally you would on something like
this. So I mean, so just for example, you know, I
mentioned this is a video poker that's not paying the way it should well.
So one thing that helped was it was on a bar, and it was
the last machine on the bar, so only there's only one person that could
be next to you who might notice. Number two, it was a When
a jackpot hit, the sound had been turned off, so there wasn't no
boys happening all the time with bells ringing. So that's another thing that helped
us. Number three, because it was there was only one seat next to
us, we could employ a blocker to sit in that seat, so nobody
could happened to be sitting next to us and notice that we were hitting jackpots
left and right. And number four it was a fifty cent machine, so
that the only time the machine would lock up is if you got a royal,
And so we threw away any chance of getting a royal, you know,
unless it was a delt royal, in which case you had no choice.
The machine locks up if that happens. But if we had like a
single king, we're keeping a tent off suit ten with it or something to
make sure that we didn't draw a royal accidentally, and we did. I
think we played it for ten days or something. Um And the reason that
it lasted as long as it did. Was the casino had something going on
where it was the busiest week of the year for them, so you know,
they they just were super busy, and I guess did not notice how
much this machine would so so, as I say, the stars just kind
of aligned in a very lucky way to allow us to play as long as
we did. Yeah, when you first told me about this, I had
not played using a blocker before, and I was an experienced video booker player
and had never considered that that was necessary or and then when you when you
said, yeah, we used a blocker, I's going, holy shit,
that makes just so much sense. Well, also, you know, we
were playing the machine four hours a day, and there was this little old
lady who was like in her seventies or eighties who knew about it, and
you know, she had made some comment about how she had paid her taxes,
you know, off that machine, that it was her lucky machine.
And she kept trying to come back and trying to come back, and there
would always be somebody there, and there'd always be somebody so she couldn't even
sit next to it and wait for them to leave, and she would come
at all hours, two in the morning, four in the morning, I
mean, just trying to get back on the machine, and you know,
of course she never could. But yeah, you know, using a blocker
is um. I mean, we often have to occupy seats in blackjack to
keep other people away from a table, so um, they're not really blocking
anybody's view, but they're there just to block other players from from getting on
the table. So so uh, yeah, it was. It was a
great idea. Again, it wasn't mine. You know, of all the
plays I've made, it seems weird to be talking about this one because really
I was just kind of a button pusher. Um. I was not any
of the creative aspect or any you know, part of organizing the play.
So what pausit to end? Because because obviously did end, it starts still
going on. Uh yeah. At one point they just shut down all the
machines on the whole bar and started going through them one by one, and
we kind of knew the jig was up. And yeah, and you know
they've I guess they eventually realized something was happening and they sent somebody down there
to fix it. But the guy who was playing at the time got out
with no problems. Nobody had any heat. We I also would say that
they were very good about planning how to handle the money, and that was
every time you got your your balance up to about nine hundred dollars, we'd
cash out a ticket and then put in one hundred dollar bill and you would
accumulate these nine hundred dollars tickets and you could go to Kiosks and cash those
nine hundred dollars tickets and nobody would cash, you know, more than nine
thousand dollars in any single day. So yeah, so we were really just
kind of invisible, huh uh. And to me, I found that a
very interesting play. All right, So Rich, do you have any questions
for me? Well? Yeah, my first question is you have started playing
slots and you're playing quite a number of hours, and it just kind of
surprised me at your age, like why why are you working so hard,
and especially being in casinos where with all of the cigarettes smoke, and you
used to have some COPD problems, right, so so why out there doing
it? Well, first of all, I enjoy it. It gives me
pleasure to kick a casino in the butt. Yeah, I get that definitely.
And the although I was seen once in the in the airport they I
saw through the glass and there that the slots are in the smoking section they
have are there are weather slots in a non smoking section too. But I
passed the smoking section and saw this great game, and so I played.
And then somebody who's not one of my fans saw me in the smoking section
and decided to mention it to on Twitter world. Yeah, and so I
was asked quite a bit about that, and uh and even Richard asked me,
you know, how Earth can ever find it a reasonable play to play
on in the smoking section? So um, yeah. I was speculating myself,
like, how much would it have to be worth an hour for me
goes in the smoking section of push Buttons? Um. Yeah. So insofar
as um COPD goes, um, that's largely gone away due to um my
my um my weight, my diet and the amount of exercise I'm doing.
So the I've talked a lot about longevity situations in the recommended section over the
past number of months, and for me, that's that that's really working.
I am healthier now than I have been a long time, which so the
COPD is gone. I have an inhaler with me, but I have not
used the inhaler in several months, and um, you know, any time
it could come back, of course, But um, yeah, well that's
good. It is. It's like I've come to the opinion that that it's
almost as though, um, things like asthma and certain other diseases are kind
of voluntary diseases, which I'm sure is very offensive to people who suffer from
one of these diseases. And that will tell me that there's nothing voluntary about
it. But a lot out of it is curable by diet and exercise.
Yeah, and so there's people who just don't want to hear that, And
so the long jeopardy stym reading is suggests that it matters. Yeah, yeah,
you know, getting back to um the you know, continuing to play
as much as you are. I remember I met a legendary blackjack player back
in about nineteen eighty, a guy named John Kretz, and he had already
made a million dollars playing blackjack, and he went and had plastic surgery to
change his face so that he can continue playing. And now remember in nineteen
eighty resorts in Atlantic City had just opened, and the only place to play
was Nevada and you know, basically Vegas, Reno, Taho. So when
you get well known, you it was hard to play anyway, So he
had plastic surgery, and a million dollars in nineteen eighty was a lot of
money. And I said to him, like, you know, why would
you have plastic surgery? I mean, you made a million dollars, what
more do you need? And he was like, well, this is what
I do, this is my life. What am I going to do?
Sit on the porch, you know? And I was like, oh,
okay, yeah, I guess that makes sense. I got it. Yeah,
I can see that. Yeah, I'm and that's partly his answer would
be the same as my answer, and I would need to have some sort
of intellectual stimulation. And so which is why, in addition to gambling,
I still do some improv I still do storytelling, I still do a few
other things. Is I'm so concerned about people who say, well, he
worked for forty years and then he retired and he was dead six months later
because he just didn't know what to do with hisself, and yeah, yeah,
yeah, I get it. And so I so there's just a whole
bunch of things that I still do. In addition to gambling. Now.
One of the things I don't I haven't talked a whole lot about it is
people on this who listen to this show mainly know me since two thousand and
ten. And my claim to fame happened in like in two thousand and one
when I hit the million dollars in six months, and that was a life
changing situation. The I know, I was a I was a real penny
pincher saving up money too. I would put Jimmy Jazz to shame. I
was to how would I would pinch pennies and I would out frugal Jean Scott.
And then all of a sudden, I was a millionaire and it changes
your perspective on things. It also changed people's perception of me. The I
was not any smarter after I hit after I had that million dollars six months
than I was before it, But now the fact that I had it gave
me credibility, and people goes, well, that guy did so well during
that time period, he must be you know, he must know what he's
talking about. So yeah, writing books gives you credibility to uh, not
always deserved, but but just the fact that you've written a book some people
just take that as well, he must know something. He wrote a book.
So but yeah, you did become the authority. But you know,
I also, you know, for a big part of my career, I
was pretty frugal too, not not to your degree, but um, I
always had this feeling like it could all be over tomorrow, and the one
thing I did not want to do was go get a job, you know.
So so I was always worried that that it could end and I would
run out of money or whatever. But then, yeah, I reached a
period where I had a quite a bit of success and at some point of
is like a weight was lifted off my shoulders and I could just relax and
go, it's it's gonna be okay. You know, I'm not gonna go
bankrupt, and you know, even if things go really bad, well,
I'm always going to be able to make money. There's always gonna be opportunities,
and I just stopped worrying about it. Yeah, And it's also an
addition to those kind of feelings which I had. It's like I also felt
like if the gambling opportunities dried up, I would still be okay. I
didn't really need anymore me I did um and less, I got really stupid
about things, or the world's economy went belly yeah, which is of course
always a possibility. Yeah, we have bigger problems than just our personal mind.
I mean, for it to go that belly up, you know.
Uh, well, I was you know during the two thousand and seven two
thousand and eight where you know, the market dropped over fifty percent, and
you know, real estate was done. Nobody knew for sure how it was
going to end up, and it was a worldwide situation due to the subprime
market going haywire. So it could have gone it could have gone differently.
Do you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist? Oh, optimists optimists,
And it's and it's a real good question. U. I. I'm not
looking at worst case scenarios, but I generally believe I'm gonna be okay.
I generally believe that I'm smart enough to figure out most things. Whether that's
true or not, I don't. Um, time will tell. I suppose
you got this far? I mean, well, but it's like there's a
famous example of of a turkey. Yeah always uh you know, who's who's
being fattened for Thanksgiving? But so his whole life has been uh, he's
been fed well, he's had all the exercise he needs, he's very healthy,
and um, he cannot foresee anything going wrong because he's had no experience
within going wrong. But then, of course, uh, in the third
week of November one year, his world change in an unforeseen way. Now,
if the world economy goes to put, that could easily happen to us.
YEA, yeah, could. But let's go back to game, all
right, do you have any regrets about your career? You know, I
used to say that I regretted not working harder back when every time you turned
around there was another whole card to play, or you know that I didn't
take more advantage of playing with computers back in the early eighties when it was
legal. But now I think about that, and I'm like, well,
what would the difference in my life have been? Really? Not much.
I mean, maybe i'd have more money in the bank, but I'm doing
okay, So so no, I don't, I don't. I mean,
well, I mean I regret I got scammed by a guy. You know,
I think this is something that we don't talk about enough. But I
know a lot of gamblers who have been scammed and and you know, I
got scammed by a guy and um, and I really regret that. Man,
that was a nightmare. Um. And and you know, the worst
part of it was that I had a lot of friends who were involved and
they lost money. It was much worse them losing money than me losing money.
And I ended up, you know, suing the guy. And that
lasted for five years and ended up going nowhere. And you know, so
I really regret that. Um. And of course when it's all over,
you always look back and go, how can I be that stupid? How
did I fall for that? But UM, yeah, I guess that's my
big regret. How about you, Well, it's always uh, I have
um decades chasing a dollar. Both of them are quite bright enough. We
could have made in this world with you know, trying to cure cancer or
trying to do something more worthy than just chasing a dollar, because casino gamblers
are basically not contributing to the world. They are, no, but we
contribute through the arts, right, I mean, you've been writing that's a
contribution. That's certainly for me. The gambling was always a means to an
end. It was a way to make a living for me to pursue the
creative endeavors. I was interested. Yeah, so that's how I justify it.
So I have, but it is still I think a lot of gamblers.
I think, you know, is this if those of us whose parents
are still alive, which is not the case for me, you know,
explaining to mom and dad this is what I'm doing and h and then saying,
you know, the idea of you know, but you could be doing
so much more, and I'm going yeah, but so overall, I'm happy
with my life, but I every now and then I'm wondering, it's just
making money enough of a reason to spend your life. Yeah, well,
maybe you should do some volunteer work. Oh well, I actually do,
and I actually, uh do things other than gambling, and so yeah,
I uh and I keep encouraging other people to do that kind of things too.
All right, So we've had a nice episode. We're we're not doing
sponsors today simply, uh, this is a bonus episode that we originally didn't
plan, and so we're still gonna have one last session next week. It's
a mailbag session and looking forward to that one, and then it's goodbye for
gambling with an edge, so thank you Richard. Go out and hit lots
of royal flushes. Everybody, good day,