1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,919 It's poor old, poor old producer's just going to have you wedded out those 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,240 bits, so he's the one having to pray a price for the preservation of 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,640 our marriages. This is London Calling, London Calling. The situation in the 4 00:00:13,759 --> 00:00:19,519 Ukraine has become even more devisive than Brexit lockdowns and vaccine mondates. Many people 5 00:00:19,519 --> 00:00:24,079 who were awake to the media manipulation during the former seem to be completely falling 6 00:00:24,199 --> 00:00:33,079 for the approved narrative on this one. Hook Line and Sinker, welcome to 7 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,119 London Calling with me. James Dunipo. I'm a very good friend, mister 8 00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:41,399 Tavy Young. What have you been up to this week? Well, James 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:48,119 m on Thursday, I think of last week, the Higher Education Freedom of 10 00:00:48,119 --> 00:00:54,320 Speech Bill received Royal assent, So that's been something the Pre Speech Union has 11 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,280 been lobbying for for about three years and finally got it over the line in 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,479 the House of Lord on Wednesday, received royal ascent on Thursday, So there 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,439 was a sort of minor celebration on Saturday night for some of those people who 14 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:14,640 have been involved in trying to get this legislation past. It's going to marginally 15 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:21,560 improve the protections for free speech and academic freedom in universities in England and Wales. 16 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,920 And not only will it impose these slightly more onerous legal duties to protect 17 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:33,640 free speech on campus on universities, but it also creates a couple of enforcement 18 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,200 mechanisms. So there already are, or there already were, various protections for 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,920 free speech on campus, but they were the rules were more often honored in 20 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,799 the breach than the observance because there were no very few enforcement mechanisms. So 21 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,799 one of the benefits of this new legislation is it creates these two new enforcement 22 00:01:53,799 --> 00:01:59,879 mechanisms, a new statutory taught which will enable academics and students who think they're 23 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:05,519 free speech has been breached by universities to sue those universities in the county court. 24 00:02:06,439 --> 00:02:09,199 And in addition, it creates this new office holder in the Office for 25 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:14,479 Students who has been described as a free speech czar, whose job will be 26 00:02:14,479 --> 00:02:19,000 to investigate complaints and if necessary, if he upholds those complaints in post fines 27 00:02:19,039 --> 00:02:23,680 on universities. So that should focus the minds of university diversity crats and make 28 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:28,479 them slightly more conscientious. We think about defending the speech rights of students and 29 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,520 academics anyway, So it's it's pretty much the only piece of legislation past I 30 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:43,400 think, in what thirteen years of conservative led governments which is unequivocally pro free 31 00:02:43,439 --> 00:02:49,000 speech. So it's definitely something worth celebrating. And on Saturday night there was 32 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,919 an event actually which which predated this, but which was happening anyway, which 33 00:02:53,960 --> 00:03:00,599 I went to, which was going to see Matt Goodwin interview Douglas Murray at 34 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:06,000 the Overseas Club in Saint James's and then after that we went out for a 35 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:08,560 celebratory dinner, and then after that James we went to a nightclub called The 36 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:13,319 Box in Soho's first time I've been to a nightclub in quite some time, 37 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,000 and it was very crowded, and I'm not sure I have a rather a 38 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,680 hazy recollection of what took place. But have you ever been to the Box? 39 00:03:23,719 --> 00:03:28,439 I think it's been going for about twelve thirteen years or so. No, 40 00:03:28,439 --> 00:03:32,919 no, um um. So did you throw some shapes on the dance 41 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,680 floor? I think I must have done. Yes. I think I have 42 00:03:36,719 --> 00:03:39,960 a vague recollection of throwing some shops. What were you all? Ecstasy, 43 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:47,199 cocaine? Just just alcohol? M far too much alcohol. But yeah, 44 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,560 I didn't get home till quite late. But no quite fun to you know, 45 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,080 go to a nightclub, even at our advanced age. But I would 46 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,479 feel perfectly comfortable getting off my in the nightclub. I think I wouldn't feel 47 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:04,120 When was the last time you did it? You had it? You had 48 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,719 an event with Danny? Danny? So the last time, yeah, the 49 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,919 last time. In fact, the last two occasions i've I've thrown shapes to 50 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,480 repetitive beats would have been both occasions Danny Rampling. The first would have been 51 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,120 at the Hope Freedom Festival and then at my own, my own after show 52 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:30,519 party. Yeah. And I don't know the thing about my generation, well, 53 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:34,319 our generation, although you weren't there, we invented, We invented the 54 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:40,079 dance scene. So I think that it will always be ours that anything that's 55 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,160 come, anything that's that's been invented since it's been a bit of a pale 56 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:47,560 invitation with those of us who were there. And eighty seven eighty eight, 57 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,839 um, well, you know, starting with acid house and stuff and the 58 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,560 Abtha sound we made that made this world possible. But we wore the Smiley 59 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,240 T shirt and the red bandannas and I think that it will redound to our 60 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,600 credit throughout history. It was probably the last, the last great moment in 61 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,480 in in British history. In fact, I would say before everything went to 62 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:19,199 ship in the history of British pop culture anything. I think. I think 63 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:24,160 that area was probably that was the last time when this country was worth worth 64 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,199 living in and they were. Interestingly, there was a kind of libertarian component 65 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,759 to the kind of acid house um phenomenon, wasn't there. It was sort 66 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:43,480 of countercultural and unapologetically headonistic, but it also had this kind of anti state 67 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,399 theme running through it, didn't it. We want to be free, we 68 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:51,279 don't care about whether premises or licensed or not. We're going to take drugs 69 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,720 and let our hair down and dance till dawn. There was this kind of 70 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,439 but it was almost a sort of um semi divi developed libertarian credo, wasn't 71 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:08,839 it. Yeah, I think. Um. I think it's interesting that certainly 72 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:15,600 on the marches when we were marching against the lockdowns and the death jab and 73 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:24,560 so on. Um, I think a significant proportion of the crowd were rave 74 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:31,759 generation that that the kids somehow are have been they've had that their spirit crushed. 75 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,720 Depending on what generation you go for, where the Generation Z or whatever 76 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,639 or millennials, um. But Generation X, which is my generation, your 77 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,040 generation. I think we have punched above our weight in in the revolution, 78 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:55,759 and I think it's partly due to the spirit of rain was Ray was great 79 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,439 because it's sort of it broke down It broke down barriers between between classes and 80 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:11,120 races and all the things that the diversity industry loves to love to talk about. 81 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:15,680 We actually did it without without being coerced into doing said by the government. 82 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,240 We just had the right pills. Um. But there's there's another theory. 83 00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:25,639 If you listen to somebody like Mark Devlin, for example, Mark Mark 84 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,000 Devlin, who's a DJ who writes about the secret history of the music industry, 85 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:39,439 would argue that even as we were celebrating freedom, that the the sort 86 00:07:39,439 --> 00:07:45,279 of the dance revolution was really just another means of another sile can conduct the 87 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:49,480 powers that be. I mean, the music industry is very very heavily controlled, 88 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:54,560 but as it is the entertainment industry, generally it's controlled by the people 89 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,439 I call the predator class or or the kebal or whatever, and they use 90 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,240 it as a form of mind control. And it's interesting that the if you 91 00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:11,560 look back at the imagery on the flyers and stuff of those early clubs that 92 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,680 are the Second Summer of Love and so on, that they are very much 93 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,240 illuminative mind control symbols, you know, for example, the single eye within 94 00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:24,839 the pyramid and so on. And I think that it was called the Second 95 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:26,560 Sumber of Love. It was echoed the First Sumber of Love, which was 96 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:33,279 which was the first mass use of popular music to to control the minds of 97 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,480 the populace and steer them in a particular direction, make them more more malleable. 98 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:41,960 The First Sumber of Love, the way it was used to break up 99 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:48,679 the family, to destroy Christian values, to divide children from their parents, 100 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:54,799 to encourage rampant drug use, and so on. Things things that that in 101 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,320 my early early decades. You know, when I was in my twenties and 102 00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:01,679 THIRTI I thought were a great thing, because you know, we were hey, 103 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:05,120 we were a sexually liberated and finally we could wear our head how long 104 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,159 and take drugs. But actually I think the consequences have actually been deliterious to 105 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:16,080 our culture and were starting to witness them the bad side effects today. Did 106 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:20,480 you look looking back and reflecting on your own participation in that cultural moment. 107 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:26,399 Do you feel in retrospect as though you were manipulated, that you were effectively 108 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,960 a non player character just doing the well that it's a bit like I feel 109 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,840 a bit like about Rave, as they do about my time at Oxford. 110 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:41,039 Um, inasmuch as almost everyone from my Oxford generation has failed and failed utterly. 111 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,000 They've they've betrayed, they betrayed their race. I mean by which I 112 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:48,840 mean this human race. They've they've betrayed their people. They've failed and failed 113 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:54,399 utterly. They've sold their souls to the devil. Um they've brought into that 114 00:09:54,559 --> 00:10:01,360 they've decided to become like courtiers and the Babylonian Babylonian court that they've looked after 115 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:07,200 that They've they've sought to suck up to the rich and powerful and have solved 116 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,279 their souls rather than doing the right thing and tried to benefit their fellows human 117 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,399 beings. UM. I'm one of the very few people from our generation that 118 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:20,600 hasn't done that, has rejected it. So I feel like I went through 119 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:24,879 a system which is designed to condition you, and somehow I didn't do what 120 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,960 they want us to do. And I feel the same way about about the 121 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,279 rave scene that, yeah, some of us, some of us got through 122 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,879 it without being without being brainwashed. Yet you have you have you encountered any 123 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,279 good films or documentaries about that era which you felt have kind of accurately captured 124 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,840 it. Uh? Yeah, there's been a few of what the yeah, 125 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,840 twenty four hour Party people? Was that good? I forget man um? 126 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,919 Was that the one about the about Tony Watter's face and the formation of Fast 127 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,879 Yeah? Yes, with Alan Partridge playing, Yeah, it was pretty good. 128 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,000 Yeah, there's been a few with it helps when you've got when you've 129 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,720 got a rave of soundtrack, I mean, Train Spotting captured something of the 130 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:16,679 excitement of dance music, even though they were all on heroin and stuff. 131 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,960 But it was still informed by the by that sound and by those beats. 132 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:28,799 Wasn't there with Underworld doing that born slippy and stuff. One thing you said, 133 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:33,240 you said that you and I are members of Generation X. Interestingly, 134 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,039 I remember looking this up. I don't know if we've had this conversation before. 135 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,039 We probably have, but I remember looking it up and apparently I'm I'm 136 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:46,919 in I'm in the tiny period in which Baby Boomers overlapped with Gen X. 137 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,039 So I think anyone between born between the eight years of nineteen forty five and 138 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,159 nineteen sixty three are technically boomers. But then I think also, if you 139 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,240 were born in nineteen sixty three, then you're also a gen xer. So 140 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:01,679 I think I'm both, but rather embarrassing me, I'm also a boomer, 141 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,919 and maybe you just escape that. I don't know you. You are younger 142 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:07,960 than me. I think you are. Yeah, I think I think I 143 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,559 escape that. So nobody can say to me, okay, boomer, even 144 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,679 even though I am really crap at technology, and I know I'm not ashamed 145 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,039 to admit it. You're not the systems personal in your household? Then it 146 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:26,960 is it? Is it your son? Well he's a bit crap as well. 147 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,399 They've got they've got the skills, but they can't be bothered to use 148 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,039 them because they don't accept that they ought to be cheap labor. They just 149 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,120 think things that they would do if they were staying at a friend's house and 150 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:45,720 the friend's dad said, oh boy, can you help me with this? 151 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,080 And he'd be terribly charming and helpful and eager to please. I don't know, 152 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,240 well, this is your experience. I find that children with their own 153 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,399 parents do absolutely sold all. They're just useless and there it is, and 154 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,200 you just have to accept it. Um well, I'm I'm the I am 155 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:05,720 the system's manager in our household just about. But I can see my eighteen 156 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,679 year old son taking over if he if he doesn't move out. So what 157 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,919 did you do at the weekend? Anything exciting? Yeah? I went to 158 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:16,559 um yeah, was it yesterday? Yeah? It was. I went to 159 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,080 the edge cut point to point, which is I think, I think the 160 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,919 point to point of the graft and graft and hunt, which is one of 161 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,480 our local hunts. So I I think we go to these things partly because 162 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,840 we want to support the local, local causes and partly to see people on 163 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:43,320 horses jumping over fences as a kind of vicarious form of displaced hunting activity because 164 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,120 obviously we've got a long wait till the season started. And it was it 165 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:48,720 was good. I was I would you do on a point? What does 166 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,720 that involved? Will you go? Well? You go through three times around 167 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,279 a track and you go over over fences on horseback? On horseback here I 168 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,399 mean not I didn't, but watch people do it. There's there's a there's 169 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:05,919 a scene in Memoirs of a fox hunting round, where so Soon describes entering 170 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,360 his first point to point, It's very exciting and very very dangerous, and 171 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,840 I mean, unfortunately I'm too old to really do it now. I don't. 172 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,919 I don't. I'd be lucky to get around. I was looking at 173 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,279 the fences and thinking, yeah, I could, I could, I could 174 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,960 do them, but I couldn't. I couldn't do them at a lick on 175 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:28,360 a on a on a thoroughbred. But I was watching. I was trying 176 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:35,639 to watch how the riders jump the fences. And the fieldmaster when I was 177 00:14:35,759 --> 00:14:39,799 last hunting, I said, can you give me any tips? And he 178 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,919 said, well, you watch watch jockeys when they go over over hurdles. 179 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:50,440 They they keep their hands very still that they let the horse get on with 180 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:52,639 it. And it's true. It's it's you've got to let You've got to 181 00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:56,240 learn that you're not jumping the fence, that the horse is doing that and 182 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,720 your job is to is to get out of the and then it got on 183 00:15:00,799 --> 00:15:05,200 with them. No, it sounds fun. And I saw I saw um 184 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,240 Christian Horner and Jerry halliwell, do you do watch f one drive to survive? 185 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:15,320 No, I don't but my my entire family does. Okay, Well, 186 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,519 well, I can tell you that that in next season there will be 187 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,799 a scene where Jerry and Christian Horner go to the educate races. Because I 188 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,240 could see that they had a mini film crew with them. I imagine that 189 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:33,120 Netflix just has this huge budget where they send round cruise with all the various 190 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,480 characters to get a bit of um, get a bit of color off off 191 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,559 the race racing circuit. And it was it was quite interesting to see how 192 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:46,320 how quickly they moved, moved through the crowd, like they really are very 193 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:52,480 keen that nobody should stop them and ask for selfies, which is what one 194 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,720 was tempted to do. I mean, I wanted to send send a selfie 195 00:15:54,759 --> 00:16:00,480 of me and then well Horner. I don't think daughter daughter cares about halliwell, 196 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:03,360 but seven one to my daughter and shared to impress her. But and 197 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,440 what were they But they were they filming themselves at a point to point you 198 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,720 know they were, Yeah, they were, they were sort of going through 199 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,440 the crowd. They're they're into horses. I think I think Jerry came to 200 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,679 horses. Okay, did I ever tell you my Jerry halliwell story you didn't, 201 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,960 did you what before she got red? No, no, no, 202 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,399 no, no, nothing like that. No that this was a friend of 203 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:30,399 mine. Um in. So he went to Los Angeles at the same time 204 00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:34,120 as I went to New York in nineteen ninety five, and um and I 205 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:41,639 contrast his extraordinary success with my lack of success in how to lose friends and 206 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:45,519 alienate people. So he's a sort of running character of Foil to me. 207 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:53,080 But at one stage he was involved with Jerry Halliwell um and um uh. 208 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:57,159 They they so they were in a relationship and then they broke up. And 209 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:04,440 then she asked to meet him at this coffee shop on Sunset Boulevard, and 210 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,599 she insisted on meeting outside rather than inside, but she thought was rather odd. 211 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,519 And when they met outside, she broke the news to him that she 212 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:22,799 was pregnant with their child. But she didn't want him seemingly to have didn't 213 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,759 want alimony from him, child support, didn't want him to have anything to 214 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,200 do with it. She was just informing him. And he was obviously pretty 215 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,119 taken aback by this and didn't quite know how to respond, and it was 216 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,599 all a bit of a shock. And then a couple of days later, 217 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:44,680 some pictures appeared shot with a kind of telephoto lens of her telling him this 218 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:51,240 news outside at this coffee shop. And he, I think concluded that she 219 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,680 had had effectively sold the story to a tabloid, or at least given the 220 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:03,400 story to a tabloid. And and and that's why she had wanted to be 221 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:07,720 outside so she could be snapped with him telling him the story, so it 222 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,039 could be aware of breaking the story that she was pregnant, and also identifying 223 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:15,920 who the father is. Um. And so that was that was not a 224 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:21,880 great experience, not a great way to discover that. So she's got this. 225 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,039 So was your friend the celebrity. He wasn't a celebrity exactly. I 226 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:33,279 mean, he's sort of he's become a moderately successful filmmaker, screenwriter and filmmaker. 227 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:41,519 Okay, let's see um and she's bloomerly it's one of the children in 228 00:18:41,599 --> 00:18:45,920 the US. Interesting. Yeah, Yeah. And I think she's you know, 229 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,640 I think she's perfectly happy and well adjusted. The child. I don't 230 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,599 think, you know, she's suffered from And I think I think that he 231 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,039 may have, he may have had some contact with, you know, over 232 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,880 the years, perhaps since she's turned eighteen. I'm not sure it han't full 233 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,920 of the story, but yeah, it was a pretty shot experience for him. 234 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,480 Anyway. Should we hear from one of our first sponsors, I think 235 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,880 everybody, James Lilas here reminding you that ricochet dot com, which has been 236 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,240 around for a long time, has been around for a good reason. It's 237 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,240 great. It's the community that once you find out, you realize I've been 238 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,480 looking for this all my years on the internet. The member side is where 239 00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:21,880 we get to have conversations on our own. The public side is worth some 240 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,000 of the brightest people you're ever going to meet, write great articles, and 241 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,000 we talk about politics and art and sports and everything you can possibly imagine. 242 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,400 It's a sane, civilized community from the center right. And like I say, 243 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:33,400 once you find it, you'll say, where has this been all my 244 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,759 life? Well, it's been at ricochet dot com. Why don't you go 245 00:19:37,839 --> 00:19:42,240 there? Now? So? Did did? Did you? Did you follow 246 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,359 the brew haha? About Donald Trump's appearance on CNN at a at a town 247 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,079 hall, I think that called in which he supposedly did very well. It 248 00:19:53,200 --> 00:20:02,000 was just him being interviewed by a CNN presenter and anyone Biden wasn't on there 249 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:06,880 to debate with him, and CNN got a big ratings boost from it, 250 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:10,880 and he was generally thought to have done quite well because he kind of projected 251 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:17,440 power and he didn't let the questioner kind of skewer him on anything. You 252 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:21,480 know, he sort of railroaded over her, and he got all his kind 253 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,720 of talking points out there and generally, you know, put in a kind 254 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:30,400 of vintage Trump town hall performance, and CNN were then subsequently criticized for kind 255 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,279 of giving him this platform. I don't know if did he follow any about 256 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:40,480 UM. I liked what he said about, but Ukraine. He seems to 257 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:45,359 be one of the few world leaders who is talking sense on the subject of 258 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:55,480 this mispeicotten Well the West Water crush Russia using the excuse of Ukraine. I 259 00:20:55,559 --> 00:21:03,680 was quite surprised you published a very vigorous hit piece by by your your your 260 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:11,000 very very pro pro Ukraine pro Zelenski writer Ian Ron's attacking Calvin Robinson. But 261 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,200 for having having dad to suggest that that it was a case of player played 262 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,519 on both their houses, that that, you know, while he was supporting 263 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,400 neither Putin nor Zelenski, he really felt that the ward run its course, 264 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,079 and we ought not to be staking it up by sending more bunk bunker busting 265 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,559 missiles and so on. Um. And I'm sort of slightly puzzled by that 266 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,160 chase, because you've got this excellent CYC call the Daily Skeptic. But the 267 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,000 one thing you're not skeptical on it seems to me is as a sort of 268 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,839 an institution, it is the West version of what's going on in Ukraine. 269 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,119 Well, I think, my, my, I think we should distinguished between 270 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,799 a few things here. I guess there is no um official editorial position that 271 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,880 The Daily Skeptic takes on the war in Ukraine. Um. I mean, 272 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:07,240 I'm I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian side and think the problem with calling for an 273 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:14,200 end to the fighting and a negotiated peace settlement is that from the Ukrainians point 274 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:21,680 of view, the only acceptable piece is if the Russians completely withdraw from Ukrainian 275 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,160 occupied territory. But there's a distinction, I think between my position and the 276 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,720 editorial position of the Daily Skeptic. I haven't imposed that position on contributors to 277 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:33,920 the Daily Skeptics. So we publish a range of views about the war in 278 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:40,920 Ukrainie So Noah car for instance, is much more closely aligned with Calvin and 279 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,039 I've ever read the piece that would would I would consider remotely close to Team 280 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,279 James, or indeed actually a lot of you. And you get a lot 281 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,400 of flak in the comments and on Twitter for your for your position, I 282 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:03,559 would say that your readership is way way more antipathetical to the Zelenski regime and 283 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:11,119 to nature than your articles. And I'm sort of slightly puzzled by that now. 284 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,200 I think on many issues, the readership, certainly those readers who comment 285 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:19,400 on the Daily Skeptic are more Team James than they are Team Toby. And 286 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,680 this is one of those issues that they're more Team James on, I think. 287 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,920 But that doesn't necessarily you know that we don't necessarily allow that to influence 288 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:34,599 the overall content. You know, we try and respond and take criticisms into 289 00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:41,000 account, but obviously they don't dictate the editorial content of what's the Russian arm 290 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,160 behind that? I mean annoy annoying your readers, I mean, I mean, 291 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,039 well, this is what possibly takes. I can understand why you want 292 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,319 to take the line you do, because it's it's within the overgent window and 293 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,759 all that, but we've got we've got a media. For example, I 294 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,519 look at a glance at my wife's daily Telegraph every day and occasionally even mail, 295 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,799 and I'm sure it's the same in the Guardians. So the entirety of 296 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:10,039 the mainstream media in this country and in America has been absolutely hot for war, 297 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,200 to keep keep stoking up the war, to push the NATO narrative, 298 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,960 to wave the blue and yellow flag. And I'm thinking, surely there's room 299 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:26,119 for a counter narrative and and I mean, yeah, skepticism perhaps of the 300 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:32,000 official narrative. And I'm not really seeing that that skepticism in your current coverage. 301 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,920 Well, I think I think, I guess one reason why we don't 302 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,400 publish more skeptical things about the war in Ukraine, although we have published some 303 00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:47,039 gems. And I do think that that that Noah's line is I've never with 304 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:52,119 it's quite quite skeptical. But I think, I mean, I think probably 305 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,319 this is one of those issues on which you know, I part company with 306 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,839 the lockdown skeptics, and it's been interesting, but that the that the lockdown 307 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:07,640 skeptics kind of segued quite seamlessly into becoming vaccine skeptics. I was an unqualified 308 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:12,720 lockdown skeptic, But I say I'm a qualified vaccine skeptic. We're just talking 309 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,559 about the the COVID vaccines, not all vaccines, obviously. And then but 310 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,640 I then there seemed to be this kind of seamless segue again from the people 311 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:27,400 that I've been in the trenches with over the lockdown to becoming skeptical about the 312 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,880 war in Ukraine. And I really part company with most of my former comrades 313 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,559 on that issue. I don't think it's been orchestrated by the West in order 314 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:41,960 to punish Russia. I think, you know, Russia's to blame. Russia 315 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,960 invaded the Ukraine. We can go on to discuss it a great length, 316 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,880 but it seems to me there is, you know, a clear aggressor who 317 00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:55,519 is behaving unspeakably and needs to be pushed out of Ukraine. And we, 318 00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:59,480 you know, we should, I think, for humanitarian and you know, 319 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:06,440 reasons of moral justice, support the Ukrainians in every way we can, short 320 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,559 of actually endangering our own populations or getting drawn into the war ourselves to any 321 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:14,720 greater extent than we already have. So I part company with a lot of 322 00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:18,680 my former comrades on that issue. But I guess one one slightly troubling thing 323 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:25,880 about the reaction to publishing pieces like the piece critical of Calvin's plague on both 324 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,200 the houses position. You agree with that it was very it was really it 325 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,960 was quite adominant as as Ian tends to be. Well he I guess he 326 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,039 yeah, he feels very passionately about this particular issue. So not surprisingly that 327 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:47,079 passion finds it finds its way into the pieces he writes about it. But 328 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:52,359 uh, it's I think I think, you know, if let's let's talk, 329 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:57,519 let's let's kind of call this kind of movement the anti woke coalition, 330 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,240 and I think it is a coition, and there are different components within that 331 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,039 coalition, and they are always they're never going to agree on everything. They're 332 00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:10,839 particularly not going to agree about what might be preferable to woke. I mean, 333 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,039 there's a kind of there's old fashioned liberals. I'd probably put myself in 334 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,279 that camp. There are there are kind of Christians like you. There are 335 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,799 there are Catholics in particular, there are orthodox Jews like uron Hazony. You 336 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,359 know, it's it's it's a broad church. And of course there are going 337 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:36,160 to be disagreements within that church. But it's disappointing when those disagreements become um 338 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,839 well, when when when? When? When you know, people get angry 339 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:45,079 with me or with the daily Skeptic for not towing the line when it comes 340 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,359 to you know, I don't know U the Andrew bridging, freyer Meyer's schism, 341 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,599 Fraser Myers schism, or a piece critical of Calvin. I mean, 342 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,880 aren't we aren't we isn't. One of the things which distinguishes our side from 343 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,599 the other side is the other side get kind of sucked into these purity spirals. 344 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:06,720 They don't tolerate dissent. You're either with them or you're against them. 345 00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:10,160 There are these rigid party lines. No one's allowed to depart from them. 346 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,440 And that's one of the things which makes it such an unattractive movement. You 347 00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,880 know, they're constantly looking for traitors rather than allies. Whereas our side isn't 348 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:26,519 Our side supposed to be a bit more intellectually tolerant. We can accommodate internal 349 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:32,440 critics without kind of excommunicating them. We don't believe in canceling people for not 350 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,680 towing the line. There isn't really a line on many issues, so it's 351 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:42,160 disappointing to me that sometimes people do get swept up into these kind of and 352 00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:48,119 become much more intransigent, to start behaving more like the other side, you 353 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,559 know, as though because they've been fighting monsters, they're sort of in danger 354 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:56,079 of taking on some of the vices of the monsters they're fighting. But it's 355 00:28:56,079 --> 00:29:03,039 interesting the two examples you give. I read Fraser Mars's piece that provoked that 356 00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:07,359 led to that debate with Andrew Bridging, and I read that Ian Ron's piece, 357 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,960 and it seemed to me that both of those pieces were trying to cancel 358 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:21,079 the target of their of their attack. That Fraser mars Is assault on Andrew 359 00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:25,480 Bridging was designed to unperson him, was designed to rule him out of the 360 00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:27,920 debate as being some ready so extreme that he could not be taken seriously. 361 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,640 And I didn't see any substantive points made in his argument against against against Bridging. 362 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,319 They were just sort of slurs. And I felt very much the same 363 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,279 way about Ian Rons's piece. I think, I think, I think the 364 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:48,519 reason people may have been aggressive towards you and on that particular instance because they 365 00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,720 read this piece and they thought this is a really nasty piece and it's making 366 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,720 some really quite trivial criticism. I mean, like, this is the point 367 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,640 Calvin Robinson made that. I mean, I think it was a shame that 368 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,440 he had to conflate the free speech union with any skeptic, because I recognized 369 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,160 that separate bodis. Nevertheless, he's he made the point that that isn't it 370 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:18,000 odd that here is this writer at Zonny skeptic trying to decide trying to tell 371 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,920 somebody else how you are supposed to pronounce Kif, which apparently is now Kiev, 372 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,240 and also whether or not you're allowed to use the phrase of the Ukraine. 373 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,759 I agree with at that point, it was it seemed to be a 374 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:38,960 nasty piece. It went beyond the realms of legitimate criticism and into personal invected 375 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:48,960 Well, I don't think the point he had made about language being politically charged 376 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,519 in this conflict was a particularly illegitimate one. It certainly wasn't an ad hominem 377 00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:56,599 attack. Well, that wasn't That wasn't a bit that was that hominem. 378 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,279 The rest of it was that ad hominem. It went l in places actually 379 00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:03,799 and stuff. It was. I mean, you conceded that point earlier on 380 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,599 the point, sort of backtracking and saying, well, actually it wasn't at 381 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,680 home. After all. The example you gave of, you know, of 382 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:15,640 going of being over the top was the language point. And I think that, 383 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:19,400 I mean, I think that's a legitimate, legitimate argument. And you 384 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:27,200 know, I think his argument was that the calling Ukraine the Ukraine evokes the 385 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:33,599 name given to it within the Soviet Empire and so implies that it's still in 386 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,079 some sense belongs to Russia. And that's why, you know, it's become 387 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,400 so contentious to put the definite article before Ukraine. Well that was his that 388 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:45,839 was his gloss. I don't think it means any such thing. I think 389 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,599 he decided that that's what it meant, but I don't think it does. 390 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,079 I mean, Ukraine just means border. And I think that actually, historically 391 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:56,920 the Ukrainians are quite like the fact that that's kind of disparate, this this 392 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:04,160 sort of non specific area that they don't want to be categorized by borders. 393 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,839 But that there you are. I mean, you can make these these nice 394 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:13,519 points about geography and language, but I think I'm not sure that that I 395 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,720 was particularly taken by this point. I mean, you know, the idea 396 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:22,519 this idea that why do we pronounce why are we supposed to suddenly pronounce PF 397 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:29,400 take Kiev as the Russians don't even spell it here they have they have the 398 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,480 similar alphabet, so it's so it doesn't even doesn't even count anyway, It's 399 00:32:32,519 --> 00:32:37,720 a nonsense line. That's it seems to have been invented by the propaganda machine 400 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,640 of the West. Well, Um, just going back to an earlier point 401 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,160 you made about Andrew Bridging and Fraser mars Is Pieter about Andrew Bridging, I 402 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,400 didn't think it was an attempt to cancel um Andrew. I mean, I 403 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,519 thought it was a pretty rot just amize him critique. But I don't think. 404 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,720 I don't think Fraser was was trying to cancel him or you know, 405 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,160 excommunicate him in any sense. And incidentally, the Daily Skeptic we ran a 406 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:15,839 piece which was quite critical of Fraser. Mays's piece in spiked by Will Jones, 407 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,799 the editor of The Daily Skeptic, pointing out that many of the criticisms 408 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:28,200 Fraser made of Andrew weren't fair and he had got a few things wrong. 409 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,519 Yeah, but I think quite, But I think I think but I think, 410 00:33:31,599 --> 00:33:34,519 yeah, I think that that that was that was, you know, 411 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,400 all in the spirit of, you know, a lively sort of internal debate, 412 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:43,440 if you like, within the anti woke coalition. And I don't think 413 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:50,640 Fraser Myers was upset by Will Jones's piece. And but again, you can 414 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:57,160 go anywhere in the mainstream media to find Andrew Brigon being either rubbished or ignored, 415 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,079 and yet here you are only skeptic, and the best you can do 416 00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:07,200 to defend him is to do a piece quite in favor of him. He's 417 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,079 just saying that maybe maybe I mean, I thought phrase munt was his pieces 418 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:16,360 are outrageous and it deserved a very robust rebuttal which which yeah, I mean, 419 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,119 okay, you you were generous enough to concede that Andrew Bridgton had some 420 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:27,760 points. But but Bridgion is right. Everything he's saying is true, and 421 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,920 I don't know why, well, well, I think that isn't that the 422 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:36,760 kind of essence of why there doesn't seem to be much tolerance for internal descent 423 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,920 sort of on our side if we can, you know, say that we're 424 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,320 both on the same side. Maybe you might for me, but you you're 425 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:47,920 just to we finished the point. Your view is everything he says is true, 426 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,679 and therefore if you dissent from anything he says, then you know you're 427 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,159 part of the problem. You're on the other side. Can't you agree? 428 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,719 Can't you agree that? I mean, can't you agree to differ on some 429 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,000 points? I mean, I'm perfectly willing to say that Andrew Bridging has some 430 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:14,280 valid criticisms of the vaccine. He's drawn attention to vaccine harms in a way 431 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,960 which has been quite morally courageous. He's jeopardized his own career. I think 432 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,639 it's great that he's found a birth now in the Reclaimed Party, and it 433 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:30,639 was brave of Lawrence as well to give him that birth. So I think, 434 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:35,519 on balance, he's definitely a good thing. His contribution to raising the 435 00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:40,800 salience of vaccine harms in the kind of national conversation has been invaluable and he 436 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,199 should be congratulated for that. But I don't agree with all his points, 437 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,119 you know, I think he does overstate the case. He sometimes seems to 438 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,960 traffic in what appeared to be not every I don't think everything that that he's 439 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,039 been accused of being a conspiracy theorist about, in fact conspiracy theories about But 440 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:07,239 I think he sometimes does allow himself to be carried away by some of the 441 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:14,199 more inflated and harder to do that doesn't. But can't we be can't we 442 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,079 can't we all be on the same side and not agree about everything. I 443 00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:24,480 mean, your your position seeds to be either you just affirm everything Andrew Bridge 444 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:29,639 and Calvin Robinson and others on our side say, or you're part of the 445 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,119 problem. You're basically paid opposition, you're a cut And that seems to be 446 00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:37,000 a bit extreme. Isn't there kind of room for internal debate and discussion. 447 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,679 We can broadly agree about many things. We don't have to agree about everything. 448 00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:45,760 It's I suppose it's what I call the dogshit yogurt fallacy, which which 449 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:52,880 is this this idea that somewhere in the middle between these two positions the truth 450 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:58,559 lies. But if one side says you should put fruit in your yogurt, 451 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,599 on the other side, it's as you should put dogshit in here yogurt. 452 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,400 Even if you reach a point in the middle, or even close to the 453 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,639 fruit party, you're still putting a bit of dogshit in the yogurt. So 454 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:15,239 I'm not sure that I would I would never feel compelled when making a defense 455 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,159 of Andrew Bridging to go looking for things of it that he said that I 456 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,639 disagreed with, because I think that the points he is making a far too 457 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,119 important and far too minority at the moment in this climate for us to have 458 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,679 the luxury of nitpicking about those little bits where we all I don't like this 459 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,039 phrase or that phrase, and it seems to me that what you're doing is 460 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:44,280 what I use. When I used to appear on oh Any Questions and the 461 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,119 question time programs like that, I noticed that when I would appear on the 462 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:54,679 panel with a conservative MP, the conservative MP would breathe a sigh of relief 463 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:01,559 because he knew that he that I was going to make all the aggressive points 464 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:06,039 that needed to be made and tell it like it was without fear or favor. 465 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,440 While he could occasionally or she could occasionally show themselves to be reasonable by 466 00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:15,039 making a few checking a few lefty points into the mix and sort of undermining 467 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:21,000 conservative values and making me at the extremist, and they could disagree with my 468 00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:23,280 point. I don't believe in that. I think we have only one mission 469 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,880 and really the only thing that matters is the truth, and if it makes 470 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,119 us look look foolish. Well, there it is. We live in a 471 00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:35,280 culture where the truth is not valued. But we should be courageous and honest 472 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,639 and not seek to put down in any way people who are who are brave 473 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,599 enough to speak the truth. That's that's my position. Is it putting them 474 00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:47,360 down? Though? To take issue with some of the things they say that 475 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,239 you disagree with. Yeah, well, but it's not even that you're fuibbling 476 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,760 about phraseology, really, aren't you. Well, you're you're throwing into Oh 477 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:01,000 I thought his hot Holocaust analogy was a bit a bit much. Sure, 478 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:07,480 I mean, I don't know. I think that so few people are calling 479 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:14,400 out very serious issue of vaccine injury, for example, that we we on 480 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:22,199 the truth speaking, freedom loving anti authoritarianism side of the argument should not be 481 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,440 UM should not be trying to sort of weaken them in any way by by 482 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:34,599 nitpicking over tiny points. Yeah, we've been around this, We've been around 483 00:39:34,639 --> 00:39:40,480 these houses before. But I guess um, like Andrew, I think there 484 00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:49,800 should be a proper public debate about vaccine harms, and primarily so you know, 485 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:57,000 we don't have a repeat of what happened over the past three years. 486 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:05,719 We need to be more circumstance about approving vaccines. Clearly, the attempt to 487 00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:12,119 suppress any legitimate criticisms of the vaccines has been, you know, a disaster. 488 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,199 There are lots of people who are suffering from vaccine injuries because they swallowed 489 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,559 the propaganda whole, because people who wanted to draw attention to the risks were 490 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:30,960 effectively silenced. I've just been banned again this morning, James, the Daily 491 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,920 Skeptic Facebook account once again banned for drawing attention to vaccine harms. Ridiculous, 492 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:43,199 it's still going on. But I don't think I don't think that unlike you 493 00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:50,039 and unlike Andrew, I don't think it was part of a deliberate plan to 494 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:57,280 actually harm people. I think that that that that that's been an unintended consequence 495 00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:01,920 of the rapid vaccine rollout and the suppression of public debate. I don't think 496 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,599 it was all part of a deliberate plan. I part company with you and 497 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,760 him in thinking that the vaccine itself, that the virus itself was manufactured in 498 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,760 order to give the authorities a pretext to roll out this vaccine because they wanted 499 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:22,960 to harm populations on a large scale. I think, I think I don't 500 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,800 think it makes I don't think there's much hope and therefore it doesn't make much 501 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:32,320 sense to talk about bringing you know, big farmer CEOs, people like Anthony 502 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:39,559 Faucci to justice. They've so arranged it that that was never going to happen. 503 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,519 So I agree with you there, that's pine in the sky. I 504 00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:46,320 mean, they deserve to be they deserve to be behind bars, they deserve 505 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,320 worse. But but they they're not going to get that. But yeah, 506 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,679 I mean, I know the wrest points about the death job that you agree 507 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,199 with and you don't believe it was a conspiracy. You think it was cocked 508 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:02,000 up and sort but I often feel with it with your defenses of people like 509 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,559 like Andrew Pridion there, they're a been a bit little war by the way, 510 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,199 I don't think Andrew is perfect. I noticed that on his web page 511 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,920 bizarrely is a is a sort of fundraising thing for for Ukraine. I mean, 512 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:22,400 I don't know what he's doing there. I think that's really really disappointing. 513 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,239 Um and there as Yeah, you're you're right, there is there is 514 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:31,159 a tendency I'm one the awake seekers after truth that that they do tend to 515 00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:38,239 purity, spiral um and and and um a far too far, too eager 516 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:45,679 to judge anyone who who shares deviations from the from the pure position. I 517 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,360 mean even I get it, you know, I mean even I've been accused 518 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,800 really being yeah yeah, but but but you know, I don't want to 519 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,559 make because that would make us I look look like they're they're even worse than 520 00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:02,400 they are. But I have been I some some people, I said, 521 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:09,599 I can across one one woman once who who who'd looked at my hand gestures. 522 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:13,519 I mean, I've seen this done done for you as well. Apparently 523 00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,199 the way when we fiddled with your glasses is a sign that you are part 524 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,400 of the Masonic free Masonic conspiration, which you maybe maybe I don't know, 525 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,880 but but I know that I'm and and and my even these hand signals, 526 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,239 I think I don't know, So there is Yeah, of course does it 527 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:37,239 give to be a parentlel. But but then who can blame them when there 528 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:45,039 is this massive conspiracy and and there are things called Judah scouts and controlled opposition 529 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,800 and limited hangouts and stuff. I mean, you know, if you are, 530 00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:52,039 if you are where I am, and you understood the truth, you 531 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,320 would realize that this is a world of deception, and it is multi layered, 532 00:43:55,559 --> 00:44:02,199 and that there are um or manner of infortraits. Touse to me that 533 00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:14,079 the the dismissal of UM critics as paid opposition, which obviously has been directed 534 00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:19,840 at me quite often. Yeah, it's m It seems to me that it's 535 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,360 a way of sidestepping any engagement with the criticism has been made, a sort 536 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:30,039 of unwillingness to argue. And I see it in the you must have encountered 537 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:31,039 at yourself, James, when you were when you were kind of, you 538 00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:39,639 know, a leading climate contrarian and drawing attention to some of the um shortcomings 539 00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:47,400 of the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis very effectively. Um, you were often accused 540 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,159 of being paid opposition. Weren't you? You were you were? You were 541 00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:54,199 supposedly in the pay a big oil that must have been that that's the only 542 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,559 explanation in the eyes of the kind of climate zealots as to why you would 543 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:05,360 be drawing attention to these shortcomings of their kind of religious belief. Yes, 544 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,679 and just as it just as it wasn't true of you then, obviously it's 545 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,800 not true of me now. And I don't think it's true of most people, 546 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,599 most internal critics. They haven't become Apple states, they haven't sort of 547 00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:19,960 gone over to the other side secretly, and they're accepting kind of money from 548 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,639 I don't know, the Gates Foundation or whoever it might be. I think 549 00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:28,599 there are degrees. There's just there's just legitimate debates and arguments. I mean, 550 00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:31,440 I know, I think we know for a fact, we know. 551 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,920 I think the Stish Scholish government that's what it calls itself, has admitted this, 552 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,320 that we've seen it, and it's it's budgeting that it actually paid was 553 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:47,000 it had a six million budget I think, to pay influencers to promote the 554 00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:52,400 vaccine, the death job. And we know, although we can't prove that 555 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,199 there are people that we rub shoulders with and that what will have rub shoulders 556 00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:00,400 in the past in the various kind of in sort of so called right wing 557 00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:07,840 circles that sort of the right wing chatterati, various members of that would definitely 558 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:13,039 hate to shield for the Vats. So I think, really I don't think 559 00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:17,320 they were. I think I think I think how much fisers put into how 560 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,360 much the spiser made was it I think thirty nine billion? Was it? 561 00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:27,199 Or more. Yeah, I think it was thirty. They've got a huge 562 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,639 it was a huge budget. That's the main We published a piece on this 563 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:37,559 in the Daily Skeptic the other day. The main beneficiary was Beyond Tech rather 564 00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:42,639 than Fiser who were making the vaccine whatever. So what I'm saying is there 565 00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:45,400 has been a lot of industry went floating around and there's gonna, there's gonna 566 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,199 they're gonna have a budget and marketing budget, and and some of that budget 567 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,199 is you can if you let's let's suppose let's suppose you're let's suppose your Andrew 568 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,599 neil Um. They usually testing and Andrew was one of those, was bright, 569 00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:04,039 it might be some of the you might think is might he's got loads 570 00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:08,800 of money and probably yeah. I also, I mean someone someone a journalist 571 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,199 with a reputation and a career to protect. I didn't think under any circumstances 572 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,239 would risk, you know, even if they were so inclined to accept money 573 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:24,920 from big farmer in order to it would be it would be the risk. 574 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,360 The risk of being found out would be utterly catastrophic for their career. How 575 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:35,639 would anyone find out given that given that the establishment, given that fois email 576 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,559 leaks, you know, same way. A lot a lot of information that 577 00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:44,000 people like fouci Um and you know, the former head of the Welcome Trust 578 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,519 and various big farmer executives would would prefer to have kept secret has leaked. 579 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,199 Well, people, stuff does leak. There are whistleblowers, there are dissenters, 580 00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:58,119 people, and I don't know, I think it would have been quite 581 00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,519 possible too for these to be paid with and be given assurances that they weren't 582 00:48:02,519 --> 00:48:08,960 going to get no I know, I dispute utterly your your notion that journalists 583 00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:15,519 generally, particularly journalists now are so high minded that they would not take bribes. 584 00:48:15,559 --> 00:48:19,039 And perhaps who knows, perhaps at the time when they took the money, 585 00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:22,360 they even believe that they were they were doing the nation as a service 586 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,880 because they weren't getting the country working again by persuading everyone to take the necessary 587 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,760 measures. I'm not saying that lots of people would have been if big oil, 588 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,920 if big oil, I mean, I don't know. I'm assuming that 589 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,039 if if big oil had ever offered you, you know they're talking about think 590 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,719 grand you would you would have you would have you would have rejected it, 591 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,760 right because not least because you have your integrity, but also the risk of 592 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,639 it getting out would be catastrophic. But and they just own you after that, 593 00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:52,880 they effectively own you. They could blackmail you unless you did exactly what 594 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,800 they said. How do you think how do you think politics works? How 595 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:04,639 do you think that most most people people in politics have compliments on them are 596 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,480 m like they have been ribed in one way or another. I'm sure it's 597 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,760 the same with with journalism a greater or less degree. Even if it's any 598 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,280 a question of saying stuff to keep your job. I mean that would be 599 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,199 the low level, the lowest level of corruption. Then I think people go 600 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,800 hard on them. And also, I mean it's it's self evident from from 601 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:30,199 how I've behaved in the last a few years that probably you're wasting your time. 602 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,559 I've said that I would, I would if you paid me. Well, 603 00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:44,159 you couldn't pay me enough to take the death jab um. But other 604 00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:46,840 people are not that. Other people don't value the truth so much. So 605 00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:52,440 whatever, I don't think you're that exceptional, James, I'm sure. I 606 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,760 mean, I think that most most of most of the journalists I know, 607 00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:05,440 um and have known for decades, UM, I wouldn't they're a bunch of 608 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,000 company. They're a bunch of they They may, they may, they may 609 00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:14,840 not be everything we'd hope they'd be, But I don't think they're They've been 610 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,159 take themselves at the bottom of the foxar, haven't they know? We're not 611 00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,840 going to name names because it's too embarrassing and too shaming, But lots of 612 00:50:23,119 --> 00:50:30,480 lots of our comrades did not. Were remarkably silenced during the lockdown. They 613 00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:34,960 they've never spoken out against the vaccines and so, and it's shaming. And 614 00:50:35,039 --> 00:50:37,079 I don't know how they're going to live with themselves. I couldn't. Well. 615 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:43,079 I think they probably thought that they were they were being responsible and acting 616 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,159 in the national national interest. Um, I don't think it's because they were. 617 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,920 They were literally paid to shill for Big Farmer. But listen, we 618 00:50:51,920 --> 00:51:05,840 should probably break for another message from some of our sponsors. Hello, I'm 619 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,000 Dennis Neal, and here's what's bugging me. The media are burying some of 620 00:51:09,039 --> 00:51:14,159 the biggest scandals of our lifetime, and I'm here to call them out on 621 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,519 it and make fun of them for it. The Twitter files and government censorship, 622 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,239 the Biden documents, the Hunter laptop, the lies of the FBI, 623 00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:29,039 and the Russia Gate hoax, China spy balloons, and toxic chemical burnoffs. 624 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:34,159 Join me to hear things no other journalist will dare tell you. All that 625 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,800 and more on What's Bugging Me? Available for download and streaming every Thursday right 626 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:47,440 here on the Ricochet Audio Network and wherever you get your podcasts Ricochet Join the 627 00:51:47,519 --> 00:52:01,000 conversation teptally. Just pick you did that because you do it quite a lot, 628 00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:05,159 and and and and people were always always commenting on it. And on 629 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,719 my telegram channel. You make your your your your cheap shot and then go 630 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,119 to the break. And by cheap shot, I mean that what you were 631 00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:19,559 doing there was a strong man. I would like to differentiate between our comrades 632 00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:22,360 who wet the bed and who are cowardly and refused to call out the vaccine 633 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,719 with the people I was suggesting actually took money to show them behalf of farmer 634 00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:32,119 that they're They're not necessarily in the same category. And you don't don't misrepresent 635 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,679 my position, Okay, but I thought you were suggesting that I'm saying journalists 636 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:43,159 took money with bribe to you. There you get you see senior journalists, 637 00:52:43,199 --> 00:52:46,639 I particularly I would say that it wouldn't be senior journalists. I mean, 638 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,760 I don't think Andrew Neal, for examples, as you mentioned his name, 639 00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:54,639 took money from Big Farmer. I don't think that some of the other established 640 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,920 columnists took money. I'm saying that slower down the rung, people who are 641 00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:04,119 sort of sort of just earlier on in their career maybe would have been or 642 00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:09,119 working in the margins, maybe in alternative media, might have been quite ready 643 00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:14,639 to accept money in their role as influencers for shilling for the backs. That's 644 00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:17,519 all I'm saying. Maybe, Um, I still think it's I still think 645 00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:22,519 it's unlikely, um, because of the risks involved, because it would effectively 646 00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:28,880 mean they'd be owned by Big Farmer thereafter and so forth. I do think. 647 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,400 I do think that if anything like that, if they're they're having a 648 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,840 program like that in place, it would have leaked by now. Which isn't 649 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:38,199 to say that that you know they don't engage in shady activities to try and 650 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:46,679 get their message out there and support activities well, you know, I expect 651 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:52,679 they. We know that, you know, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. 652 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,119 Maybe maybe shady is too strong, but we know that. No, 653 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:59,159 I think it's not too strong. They give they give large sums of money 654 00:53:59,519 --> 00:54:05,639 to the see into various newspapers. And whilst I don't suppose there's an explicit 655 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,159 instruction that if you receive the money you can't criticize any vaccine ever, but 656 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,239 nonetheless, of course that that that must be in the back of the mind, 657 00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:22,920 or I would have kind of editors overseeing the work page. But I 658 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,800 think, I mean, I think one reason why I don't think there is 659 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:32,519 a kind of program of that nature within companies like Visor any more than there 660 00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:37,480 is, you know, in big oil companies to kind of attack climate change 661 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:42,760 alarmism is that they don't need to, partly because you know, group think 662 00:54:43,039 --> 00:54:49,679 just kind of keeps most journalists, commentators, opinion formers, influencers in line. 663 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,159 Partly because you know, the kind of disinformation that what is it with 664 00:54:54,239 --> 00:55:00,719 the the the the the censorship industrial complex, which is which which Michael Schellenberger 665 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:07,000 and various journalists have been drawing attention to the Twitter files. Matt Tybee, 666 00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:15,039 Um, you know they are funded by governments, the various NGOs and shadowy 667 00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:20,119 state agencies which are engaged in trying to suppress dissent on a kind of massive 668 00:55:20,159 --> 00:55:24,840 scale. They're funded by you know, by by by the Department for Defense, 669 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,960 by the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, and so for all organizations like 670 00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:34,920 the um you know, the News Guard, which is one of the reasons 671 00:55:35,039 --> 00:55:39,000 the Daily Skeptic finds it very difficult to attract advertising, so they don't Big 672 00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:45,079 Farmer wouldn't need to bribe anyone in order to make sure that kind of criticisms 673 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,400 or the COVID vaccines are suppressed because that's all take that's all taken care of 674 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,679 already. Yeah. I think they're probably like the mafia. They'll they'll they'll 675 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:58,679 work with their materials. So if they think you'll respond to blackmail, they're 676 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,639 blackmail, you know that. There's I think you'll respond to bribery. They'll 677 00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:07,440 bribe you and the thing threats whatever whatever works, baby, okay, Um, 678 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:12,079 all right, So should we go into culture corner? Oh? Yes, 679 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,639 yes, yes, perhaps we should. Um, well, I've got 680 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:22,400 I've got a top recommend you. Have you seen the Silo yet? No? 681 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,559 The Silo? Oh what is it? I think it's called the Silo 682 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,840 rather than Silo. Um, it's I saw Apple TV. Oh yeah, 683 00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:35,519 it's it's sci fi, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 684 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,719 yeah, I think it isn't. Yeah, I'm wrong. It's called 685 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:50,119 silo. Um oh, just googled it. He published the work through Adam 686 00:56:50,159 --> 00:56:57,079 Amazon's Kindle direct self published it, and it's been turned into a TV somebody 687 00:56:57,119 --> 00:57:01,480 called it. This is a nice story. He's called Howie right who wrote 688 00:57:01,559 --> 00:57:07,760 it, And it's good. It's good dystopian stuff. So there has been 689 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:17,000 some unnamed apocalypse which nobody can remember, and ten thousand survivors of this this 690 00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:22,840 this thing have been for the last one hundred and twenty years been inside this 691 00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:30,440 giant silo thing where they they've got this a sort of a growing area, 692 00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:34,760 you know, a sort of greenhouse area under artificial light, and they've got 693 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:40,000 the power thing at the bottom, and they've got different tiers and only so 694 00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:45,079 many people per year are allowed to breed and so on, and they don't 695 00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:52,320 know what's outside. And if if you do decide, if you do say 696 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,039 the forbidden words, you know, I want to go outside, then you 697 00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:00,280 are forced to make the walk and go out into this supposedly toxic world. 698 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,880 And it's it's not clear at the stage whether the world outside is toxic or 699 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,960 whether actually this is just an illusion which has been promoted by the people who 700 00:58:10,119 --> 00:58:14,719 run that the silo to stop everyone and everyone leaving. They've got sort of 701 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,440 vested interests in keeping this community in their throull. But it's it's it's good. 702 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,880 It's it's got a it's got a good cast of stalwarts. It's got 703 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:31,280 Harriet Water for example, and um, that really hot. I think she's 704 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:37,920 sort of Norwegian English or something. She was she was the mother in June, 705 00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:44,079 you know, the mother of the Yeah is it Rebecca Ferguson something like 706 00:58:44,159 --> 00:58:50,880 that. Yes, she's impossible films, Oh okay, And yeah, good 707 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,440 cast. And it's not a not annoyingly work. I know, just that 708 00:58:55,559 --> 00:59:00,880 Harriet Walter's character is a lesbian. And you're kind of thinking, when did 709 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:06,440 I last watch a series on Apple TV or Netflix or whatever where one of 710 00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:09,400 the characters wasn't in a lesbian relationship? And how does how is this? 711 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:15,519 If if this will reflect it in the real world, then almost every other 712 00:59:15,559 --> 00:59:19,639 person knew would be or every sort of fifth person one knew would be a 713 00:59:19,679 --> 00:59:22,400 lesbian. It's just not true, is it. It's not. No, 714 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:31,760 it's getting tarsan. Yes, it's it's it's I recommend it. Do watch 715 00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:38,199 it, Okay, I'm definitely gonna watch that, James. So I've got 716 00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:44,239 a recommendation to make. So I started watching The Diplomat. I don't know 717 00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:47,599 if you've seen that, but it's about Kerry Russell, who used to be 718 00:59:49,159 --> 00:59:54,360 the woman in the Americans, and she's married to rufus Sewell and she's on 719 00:59:54,519 --> 00:59:59,440 her way to take up a posting in Carball. She's a career diplomat when 720 00:59:59,519 --> 01:00:05,719 suddenly gets to call up to become America's ambassador to the Court of Saint James. 721 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:12,239 So she flies to London. It's because there's been a terrorist on a 722 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:19,400 British aircraft carrier. But I don't think we actually have an operationally implausible it's 723 01:00:19,519 --> 01:00:22,719 deeply implausible. The whole thing I have to say, anything involving terrorism, 724 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:30,199 I've come. I've come to the end that kind of inciting incident is rather 725 01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:35,280 implausible. But once she arrives in London, um, it kind of it's 726 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,760 it's quite it's quite entertaining, and it's it's not quite a kind of comedy 727 01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:44,599 thriller but almost. And rufus Sewell is very good. He's a he's a 728 01:00:44,719 --> 01:00:51,360 former ambassador himself now having to play the ambassador's wife role, which not terribly 729 01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,599 comfortable with. And she's sort of a career diplomat who doesn't like kind of 730 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,519 the kind of frippery of being a kind of more high profile ambassador, so 731 01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:05,960 like posing for the kind of Vogue photos story, you know, as she 732 01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:09,199 goes to kind of be formally appointed to bucking In Palace in a carriage and 733 01:01:09,239 --> 01:01:12,719 the rest of it. But actually, as the kind of plot unfolds, 734 01:01:12,719 --> 01:01:16,239 it becomes apparent that the reason she's been given this plumb posting, even though 735 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:22,760 she's seemingly not qualified for it, is that she's being eyed up as a 736 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,960 potential successor to the vice president, who, for some reason we don't know 737 01:01:27,079 --> 01:01:29,599 why yet is and this all comes out in the first episode. This isn't 738 01:01:29,599 --> 01:01:34,519 a spoiler. She doesn't know that she's being assessed as a potential successor to 739 01:01:34,639 --> 01:01:38,119 the vice president, but rufus Seule knows he's trying to. He can't tell 740 01:01:38,199 --> 01:01:42,159 her because if he tells her, she'll of course immediately reject it, so 741 01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,119 he has to kind of coax her into it. But he's sort of in 742 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:51,480 kind of he's in this sort of conspiracy with someone in the White House to 743 01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:54,039 try and groom her and get her to accept this position, but overworts, 744 01:01:54,039 --> 01:01:58,360 they're also assessing whether she might be suitable by plunging her into this kind of 745 01:01:58,679 --> 01:02:00,760 geopolitical crisis. Anyway, it's quite good, it's quite entertaining. I'm only 746 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:07,039 see one episode, but which which channel? It's on Netflix? Okay, 747 01:02:07,559 --> 01:02:13,519 um, yeah, I'm I'm thinking I'm not very tempted. However, I 748 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:21,079 can recommend another Netflix series, um folled. Is it called Sanctuary? It 749 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:30,880 is? It's the Japanese series about sum a sumo wrestler. And already you're 750 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:35,639 onto a good start, because how do you know about sumo wrestling? It's 751 01:02:35,679 --> 01:02:39,920 not like a fascinating subject for a good drama or not. You're not you're 752 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,119 not interested in that. Oh no, I could, I could? I 753 01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:45,920 could? I could? I could stand to learn more about exactly well, 754 01:02:46,199 --> 01:02:51,159 well exactly because you think about it. So they have all these these um 755 01:02:51,679 --> 01:02:55,519 um sumo or whatever, I forget the terms of zumo schools or whatever that 756 01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:04,079 where that it's very hierarchical. So the most established sumo wrestlers are waited on 757 01:03:04,239 --> 01:03:07,880 hand and foot by by the junior sumo wrestlers and there's an early scene where 758 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:14,079 this this junior trainee has to get a pair of chopsticks to break up the 759 01:03:14,719 --> 01:03:17,199 the enormous turn of the supermo wrestler, which is, you know, go 760 01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,400 and go and break up my turn. Otherwise it's blocked out. So it 761 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:27,480 says being Japanese there they are quite quite old school and traditional and so um, 762 01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:30,840 I mean it's I mean, it's, it's, it's it's very engaging 763 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:38,000 so far. No, it's thing like I have this. I have this 764 01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:43,239 problem with with Korean drama as well, quite often, and it seems to 765 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:49,800 be the case with the Japanese that one is never quite sure of the register, 766 01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:54,360 whether it's whether it's supposed to be a comedy or whether it's supposed to 767 01:03:54,360 --> 01:04:00,679 be I often couldn't work out although I was watching our friend in the in 768 01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:04,760 the North level of seriousness or Benny Hill level of comedy. And because because 769 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:13,039 there, because in the East, their their body language and intonation and everything 770 01:04:13,199 --> 01:04:17,119 is so different, their culture is so different from us. It's often quite 771 01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:23,119 hard to get a handle on any particular scene, whether this is being played 772 01:04:23,199 --> 01:04:30,400 death straight, whether it's tongue in cheek, whether it's high comedic satire or 773 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,719 whatever. But apart from that, it's it's, it's it's just it's just 774 01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:39,239 great. I mean, Japan is I think, a really interesting place. 775 01:04:40,119 --> 01:04:45,280 It's it's because it's so unapologetically Japanese. One of the few cultures, isn't 776 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,199 it, which in the world which has been absolutely allowed to keep its identity. 777 01:04:51,239 --> 01:04:55,199 Good luck to the Japanese with that. Yeah, that sounds good. 778 01:04:55,239 --> 01:04:59,719 I'll check that out. Yeah, insidantly you're puzzling over the genre. Reminds 779 01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,760 me that I think it was last week we were talking about a genre which 780 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:09,079 we couldn't decide what the correct term of art for was. It was like 781 01:05:09,199 --> 01:05:16,519 the Mummy films and the Indiana Jones films, and I think i'd said action 782 01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:21,000 comedy and you you disputed that. So um, someone very helpfully has been 783 01:05:21,079 --> 01:05:28,360 in touch. So he's someone who occasionally donates tom to the Daily Skeptic and 784 01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:35,920 actually regularly donate. And he's he's also he also said, I worked on 785 01:05:38,159 --> 01:05:42,320 a couple of those Mummy movies know as a screenwriter, and I can tell 786 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,519 you what the term of art is for the genre. It's action adventure. 787 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:54,320 And now we know James action adventure. He should know he should know. 788 01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,840 I'm not disputing that that would be the new show it fits into, although 789 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:05,760 I would say it doesn't capture the differences in tone between the Mummy films and 790 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:12,079 the Indian on Genes films. Um. I don't like the tongue in cheapness 791 01:06:12,159 --> 01:06:15,079 of the of the Mummy films. It's two it's two camp and knowing, 792 01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:21,039 whereas the Indian on Genes are just that that that does the right side of 793 01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:24,719 camp. Yeah, I don't know. I think it feels it feels like 794 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,119 a kind of I don't know. I mean, I think the The Mummy 795 01:06:28,119 --> 01:06:34,320 films are maybe slightly more campy, yes, Indiana Jones, but I still 796 01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:40,280 like them, and I don't mind that kind of the fact that it doesn't 797 01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,000 you know, they don't take themselves very seriously, and you know, it's 798 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,880 it's not supposed to be the action sequences and aren't supposed to be particularly realistic 799 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:53,280 or plausible. They're just kind of fun. Um. I always quite enjoyed 800 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,320 them, but I also enjoyed the Indiana Jones films, So I don't mind 801 01:06:56,360 --> 01:07:00,199 a bit of you know, um camp send up of kind of I think 802 01:07:00,239 --> 01:07:09,480 that's my problem, my serious grueling. Yeah, I like Norseman. Now 803 01:07:09,519 --> 01:07:13,119 I didn't. Norseman was absolutely try, wasn't it? I didn't see it? 804 01:07:13,159 --> 01:07:16,000 Actually, did you not see it? That? Is that the Hamlet 805 01:07:16,159 --> 01:07:21,599 thing? The Hamlet? Yes, yeah, that was stupid fighting by bloody 806 01:07:23,159 --> 01:07:29,199 lava flow and ridiculous. Yeah, we should go to one more break to 807 01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,000 hear from sponsors and then come back. There's one just one thing, the 808 01:07:31,079 --> 01:07:38,840 last thing I want to discuss with you. I am Andrew Gutman and I'm 809 01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,039 Beth Peely, and we're a couple of accidental activist parents who woke up and 810 01:07:43,119 --> 01:07:45,719 started speaking out about issues that we saw in our children's schools. To join 811 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:50,239 us every week and take back our schools on the Ricochet Audio Network or wherever 812 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:59,880 you get your podcasts Ricochet. Join the conversation. So, James, did 813 01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:10,679 you see the rather wonderful news that Queen Cleopatra this controversial TV series on Netflix, 814 01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:17,119 Yes, about the Young Cleopatra. And it's controversial because a black actress 815 01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:23,560 has been cast as Cleopatra. And as we know, Cleopatra was in fact 816 01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,880 Greek, she was ethnically Greek, so it would not have been black. 817 01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:30,239 Um, I don't know. I don't know if she would have been blonde 818 01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:34,960 that they wouldn't that be funny if they discovered that the blonde with blue eyes 819 01:08:36,199 --> 01:08:44,359 really paleski? Well, I think the news is that it's it's again. 820 01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:49,800 It's critics score on Rotten Tomatoes is currently eleven, and its audience score was 821 01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:57,319 one, but it's gone up to two. But that's pretty bad. That's 822 01:08:57,359 --> 01:08:59,960 like we always know that. I mean, as we've often discussed before, 823 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,800 the audience score is way more reliable than the critics score. But yeah, 824 01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:06,520 if the audience are giving this one or possibly two out of a hundred, 825 01:09:08,039 --> 01:09:11,560 that is pretty damn it. But also, but also if we know, 826 01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,039 we know critics are so woke these days. I mean I read the other 827 01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:19,399 critics reviews and I just think, by what planet you coming from? It 828 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:24,319 is just woke on it. But if they're if even the critics are giving 829 01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:30,000 it eleven percent, how about even the critic It's a docu drama, so 830 01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:35,399 it's sort of a combination of talking heads and actors re enacting scenes as they 831 01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:41,880 might have unfolded. And isn't it I saw it was produced by Will Smith's 832 01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,800 wife, Jada Pinkett Smith. That's right, Jada Pinkett Smith, Um, 833 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:53,680 Yeah, we can't be rude about her, James, because yeah, I 834 01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:59,159 get slapped. She's the one that's getting bored. Yeah, I didn't say 835 01:09:59,199 --> 01:10:01,119 that. If you're listening, that was James that said that, Well, 836 01:10:01,199 --> 01:10:05,239 you must have a lot of empathy with the Toes. Well, yes, 837 01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:12,479 maybe maybe maybe she went bored when she realized just what a what a turkey 838 01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,319 she was in the book. Do you think she was making Cleopatra at the 839 01:10:15,399 --> 01:10:16,880 time when her hair fell out, when she realized it was all going, 840 01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:23,880 this ain't gonna fly? She was thinking, I don't I think, I 841 01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,960 think, I think. Isn't it related to I think she got alopecia. 842 01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:30,399 Wasn't it related to some kind of stressful episode? I don't know, but 843 01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:31,399 there is, there is, There is a reason why we're not supposed to 844 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:35,640 joke about it. I wasn't. I was just observing, observing, well 845 01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:40,640 are you going to watch it? Just sort of tempted. Now it's sort 846 01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,800 of it's so bad, it's I'm a little bit curious about it. Category. 847 01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:47,560 It's a bit like shoving you woody into a vacuum cleaner to see what 848 01:10:48,039 --> 01:10:51,640 happens. You've done that, haven't you? Now? I really haven't. 849 01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:57,000 I mean, but you do you do hear from surgeons that, yeah, 850 01:10:57,239 --> 01:11:00,279 that they have to do it. I mean it's like horrible, don't do 851 01:11:00,319 --> 01:11:05,239 it? Okay, well now you put me off, yeah, up in 852 01:11:05,279 --> 01:11:10,520 the emergency room here. But but before we go, m and the corona 853 01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:15,079 still good. And there was a fantastic scene where I thought of you. 854 01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:20,239 I thought of you. There's a there's a character who's clearly based on the 855 01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:28,920 character with whom Tolstoy most identifies is called Levin, and Levin is is a 856 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,640 you know, sort of junior aristocracy, and he wants to he wants to 857 01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:36,399 live on his state and just living on his horny handed tool, simple life 858 01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:42,479 away from the world. He's very much as I am now. And that 859 01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:47,720 his elder brother is I think would be team Tobes and the elder brother. 860 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:53,399 There's there's a great conversation that they have. I instantly thought of you and 861 01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:59,520 me. Where um, it's at a time in Russian history where they've started 862 01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,199 to set up these these local sort of town councils to try and improve the 863 01:12:03,359 --> 01:12:10,600 lot of the peasants and improve their education and their their healthcare, and into 864 01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:16,800 generally interfere in the Lives of the Peasants, and Um Levin, the me 865 01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:20,920 character, has a conversation with the you character, the elder brother, and 866 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:27,479 the older brother is massively into the idea that that that the serfs should be 867 01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:30,600 educated because education is in itself a good thing and so on. I mean, 868 01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,359 correct me if I'm wrong, if this wouldn't be your position. And 869 01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,399 he talks about, you know, what a wonderful the education is, and 870 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,399 Levin says, you know, it's really not worth it, that these are 871 01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:45,119 serfs, that that actually it's it's only going to mess things up that they're 872 01:12:45,199 --> 01:12:48,199 not it's not what they do. Um, And he's going to have these 873 01:12:48,279 --> 01:12:53,479 meddling bureaucrats deciding this and that, and it's going to actually not and the 874 01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,800 healthcare system isn't going to make them any healthier. It's just going to bring 875 01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:01,239 these quack doctors into an imposed burden on that. I mean not right in 876 01:13:01,319 --> 01:13:05,159 thinking you would have been the elder brother saying well, education it's important and 877 01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:11,159 we should. Yeah. I probably would have been the the old fashioned liberal 878 01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:16,760 arguing him. Yeah, the told stories. Actually you can tell he's quite 879 01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:25,760 scathing. Ah. He understands that the aristocracy are doomed because of their their 880 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:30,439 sort of being impulsal liberal attitude. They're wet liberalism. Yeah, they're wet 881 01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:35,199 liberalism. And he's right, it wasn't he wasn't. Tolstoy also quite liberal 882 01:13:35,399 --> 01:13:39,199 when it came to serfs. I mean he was, he was. He 883 01:13:39,319 --> 01:13:45,039 was very kind of dutiful. Oh yeah, that's a landowner. Oh absolutely, 884 01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:47,159 And that's that's that's see, that's it. It's a bit like the 885 01:13:47,279 --> 01:13:51,479 thing we didn't discuss, a bit like the Archbishop of Canterbury, the appalling 886 01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:59,479 welby quoting citing the Bible is evidence that we should allow more immigrants to come 887 01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,279 in because it's what Jesus would have done. And the point she completely misses 888 01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:08,560 is that Jesus was not saying the state should impose these values on people. 889 01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,479 He was talking about individuals and doing their own form of charity in the same 890 01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,640 way. The fact that Tolstoy treated his serve as well, it is not 891 01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:23,840 an argument for statist ventures to improve the lot of the completely different thing, 892 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:31,239 right, Yeah, no, Well, maybe maybe the various welfare measures rolled 893 01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:38,439 out in late nineteenth century Russia were insufficient to avert the Russian Revolution, But 894 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:45,399 I think the enfranchisement of the British working class by Israeli and others in the 895 01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:51,399 late nineteenth century in Britain, the passing of various measures to protect pensions provide 896 01:14:51,479 --> 01:15:00,039 unemployment benefit, the kind of embryonic formation of some kind of socialized medical of 897 01:15:00,079 --> 01:15:03,319 this, and so people say all of that, I think did successfully an 898 01:15:03,359 --> 01:15:09,239 equivalent revolution here in terms. Well, I mean, we obviously argue about 899 01:15:09,239 --> 01:15:13,199 another podcast, But there were already these friendly societists. There was already a 900 01:15:13,319 --> 01:15:16,640 community welfare state. We didn't need the government. The government actually moved in 901 01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,800 and destroyed a system was already working. You're you're, you're, you're repeating 902 01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:25,920 the kind of the socialist narrative that we needed this massive government. We never 903 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,479 needed it. But let's say that for another podcast, to pay that for 904 01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:30,880 another day, Okay, James, okay, great, all right, Well, 905 01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:32,199 I'm good to talk to you. Quite nice to have a fairly good 906 01:15:32,279 --> 01:15:35,119 humored exchange this. Oh yeah, what's why what would you going to? 907 01:15:35,279 --> 01:15:39,119 Now? What's the parliament thing you're going to? I'm going to go and 908 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:45,680 testified before an all party parliamentary group on coronavirus and vaccines. Will you tell 909 01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:47,560 them all from me? There are a bunch of useless bastards amission or be 910 01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:50,960 imprison These are these are people on our side, James, I'm not going 911 01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:57,119 to say that. No, stop antagonizing your fellow your comrades in arms. 912 01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:20,640 Okay, all right, but it's under could Ricochet joined the conversation.