What it is krack alacing Hardwood Knox listeners. I am Dan Valley coming at
you without my fans. Habuo's co host Adam frommel I am, however,
super pleased to be joined by the one and only Tie Windish. He is
a co host of the Eurostep podcast, which can be found on the Eurostep
Podcast Network. Follow them on Twitter at Eurostep Podcast. That's at g y
R O Step Podcast. Follow Ti on Twitter at Ti Windish. That's at
T I W I N d I s c H. They do a great
job covering the Bucks, So you might have guess you're gonna be talking a
lot of Buck Celtics because I've decided that is my favorite second round series.
There was I was going through with you know, MAVs or or Phoenix and
then like Philly and Philly came in there with Miami for a little bit,
but it's pretty decidedly Buck Celtics because that's the one that leaves me emotionally after
every single game wanting to change everything that I initially thought. So we go
deep into the series, what to expect with Game six and beyond. Before
we get started, though, just my usual reminder to continue rating reviewing,
and subscribing to us wherever you get your podcasts, even if you don't use
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am there, try to be there during games. I'll try and be there
more. It's been a little quiet in there lately, but we have a
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national media coverage. Is there a stronger endorsement than that, I have no
idea. With all that out of the way, though, let's dive headfirst
into some Bucks Celtics talk, and also we talk about the MVP since Yo
Tai covers Yannis, and whether there should be postseason awards. So let's dive
into all that with thy windish Ti. Welcome back to the Hardwar Knox Podcast.
I normally only pester you once a year for our Bucks look Ahead,
but how could I not pester you given what's happening with Bucks Celtics in the
semi finals. Before we dig into all things that have been this epically ridiculous
series between these two teams, First and foremost, how are you? I'm
doing well? As I said, we do these playback live streams, so
it's kind of like twitch like we're on the screen talking about the game.
As I said at some point during Game five, which we were live for
time to see how my happiness over the next forty eight hours is going to
be in that fourth quarter. And it's good. It's good the Pucks won.
You know, it's not always like that every game, or even every
playoff game, but certainly one of that magnitude it was going to affect the
mood a little bit and you wake up feeling a lot better when the Bucks,
Jannis, Drew, Bobby pat I mean, you can name a lot
of guys who I think we're really great in that game in their own ways.
But all that to say, I'm doing well. Thank you Dan for
having me on the Hardwood Knox podcast. I'm honored. Oh please. We
love Havingue around these parts. I guess you know we're coming off of just
what was a wild game five? That fourth quarter are just like there are
so many just mind melting things that happened between Drew's Holiday's defense. I mentioned
to you before we started. I find it incredible that even with the Bucks
the defensive adjustments, the Celtics took zero three pointers during the quarter. What
have you just made of this series though? In general? Through the through
the first five games, yeah, I think honestly, the story of this
series has been like who can figure out a way to score? Because I
think it's two great defenses. And we've had conversations on the pod like are
the Celtics a great team or a very good team. I think the conclusion
we've came to is they are a great defense, but a very good team
because of their limitations on the other end, and I think the Bucks dealing
with a lot of the same limitations, especially without Chris Middleton. So this
series to me, and the scores have gone up as we've gone farther.
I think some of that is these guys are just getting tired of playing this
level of defense and trying to contain Jannis on one end, Tatum on the
other, and all the other guys as well. But I think really it's
you know, who can who can squeeze out some points. So for the
Bucks, that was taking advantage of turnovers big time in Game five and knocking
down some threes two guys who you know aren't known as great knockdown shooters but
had been unseasonably bad in the playoffs, and Jannis and Drew both hit threes
late. Pat Cottady continues to pour him in Wesley Matthe uses hitting threes like
those are the differences. I mean, you know, Tatum, outside of
the two games where he was really very limited, has scored like, you
know, high twenties, thirties something like that. Jannie now is doing the
same. Seems like he is kind of just worn down. Al Horford to
an extent, although Horford's still doing a good job. He's figuring out the
Celtics defense as we go. But it's like who can get points around their
star or stars. Jalen Brown has been quite good too, and the Bucks
with some timely shooting and some transition, they figured it out and stole the
win because of it. Yeah, what's interesting is that everything Boston did well
through the first three quarters or whatever, it was completely just flipped in the
fourth quarter. Milwaukee beat them in transition. They scored most of their points
off turnovers in the fourth quarters, They got seven of their offensive seven of
their seventeen offensive rebounds in that fourth quarter. It was just like it was
like it was an epic collapse, because like seldom do you see like such
a comprehensive implosion. It was just that every single level of the game.
And I do think you need to credit Milwaukee, who played fantastic defense.
I think West Matthews and Pat Connaton have been like two of just to undersung
heroes in this series. I mean Wes Matthews too, just like playing all
these minutes at the age of eighty or whatever he is at this point.
So that's been that's just been interesting to watch. I wonder if you know,
you mentioned Janice sort of figuring out Al Horford, and I'm kind of
with you. The Bucks offense can still be frustrating at points where it's they
set a ball screen for Yannis, but then there's not really anything going on
after the ball screen. He's just at the top of the key and he's
going after he was ever in front of him. He's been able to get
by Al Horford. And then you know, your co host, I think
it was Rohan mentioned like he's been using his angles a lot better, and
I totally agree. I'm wondering how much it has to do with Robert Williams,
the third not being in this series anymore to be behind those plays.
Jannis through the first two games only took ten shots when Al Horford was on
the court, and he was five of ten, like, but only ten
shots, and a lot of those minutes are coming with time. Lord,
he has taken many more shots since five word went down, and he's shooting
like sixty percent from two in those things. And so do you think that
I'm with you in the sense that I Milwaukee and Boston faced the same offensive
struggles, and I don't think we can say, oh, the Bucks offense
has figured it out, but it feels like Jannis might have figured out how
to attack the Celtics, at least as they're currently constituted without Robert Williams a
third there. Yeah, I think, and I think he kind of does
this to everyone. I think that was what changed last postseason. Is he
figured out something. He figured out more counters, and you know, his
will has always been unrelenting, but I think he's figured out a couple more,
added a couple of tricks to the apparently small bag to get by these
defenses. But I do think Robert Williams would change things. I don't know
if Boston would close with him because I think the issue there for the Celtics.
While I do agree, I think, you know, I've seen this
narrative that it's good for Boston and he's not playing. That's stupid. He's
a good player. They don't have a ton of good players, although their
bench was excellent. They somehow one Daniel Tisman is convincingly which drove us crazy
watching the game. But Robert Williams would certainly help Boston. But I do
think what is good for the Bucks about his minutes is those are very comfortable
Brook Lopez minutes. Since he's gone out, Lopez has not had as much
of an impact on either direction because essentially Boston is always five out. I
mean even Tice is what made a three, and Ken shoot threes to an
extent. Whereas Robert Williams that jumper, the midrange jumper for him has looked
quite good this series and it's probably like three attempts. I'm a sick o
because I'd buy him and stuff like that, but he's made a couple that
I was like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't No, I
could do that. But Lopez is a lot more comfortable hanging with him,
So I think if he is, if he does go Game six and plays
a significant amount, I would expect it to be another lower scoring game.
I think that's some of the reason the scoring has upticked over these last two
in addition to the defenders just getting tired. Is you know less Brook Lopez.
He played twenty minutes last night. They lost his minutes by a couple
of points. He hasn't been as effective on either end. I think if
timlow is out there for twenty five minutes, you can probably Pencil and Brook
Lopez for those twenty five minutes and then both teams paint becomes a nightmare again,
Like there's some similarities with how they these two teams can function defensively,
I think, And it'll be interesting, but yeah, I think it'll be
harder for your honest and then maybe even more importance on role players hitting threes.
Thankfully, Pat Connadon has stepped up in a big way when guys like
Grayson Allen really if not and just again, it'll become like who can force
more turnovers, who can get going in transition to beat these half court defenses
because they're both very thorny with those two centers down low. What do you
make of there was the report and you guys talked about this on the eurostep
that Chris Middleton could return for a game six or a game seven? Are
you do you buy into that? And two would you even be in favor
of it? And I think it's easy to be in favor of it because
I picked. I guess this is me underestimating the Bucks, or maybe it's
me overestimating how important Chris Middleton is them. I thought the Celtics were going
to win this series. I believe that Chris Middleton was that important to the
Bucks's half court offense, and I still think he is. I just underestimated.
Well, shit, your honest exists and like his will be done sometimes
like that's just what it feels like with him. But what do you make
of whole situation? Would you expect him to play in one of these two
close out games, if there's even two of them, and would you even
be in favor of that give any injury that he's coming back from. Let
me clarify, I think everyone probably knows, but I have no inside information.
This is not reporting. Aggregators speculation. Yeah, yeah, aggregators call
him off. This is a useless take for you. I would expect him
to play before the series ends, which is Rohan's take. I would love
to see him play in Game six, with the obvious caveat if he's truly
ready to play, if it's safe for him to play, even if it's
safe for him to play, but he's going to be a little limited at
first, you know, I would. I'd even like to see him then.
I think a couple like fifteen twenty minutes again, players states he is
the most important thing they're up three to two without him, you obviously won
him back. You don't want to take any game lightly in this series,
now close it's been, but he would provide such a jewel. I mean,
there's so many times. The funny thing about Game five is it was
kind of the just like carbon Copy, but the opposite of Game four,
where the Bucks how to lead it half time, built a lead up in
the third quarter and then ended up just blowing it in the second half.
The Something's built their lead more in the fourth quarter, but still that reversal
late. It's the same thing kind of happened to the Bucks and the Al
Horford and Tatum explosion, and Marcus Smart had some big place in there too.
But I was thinking we talked about after that game man, some of
those runs when the Bucks could not score, that's when you need Chris Middleton
to just say, if it I'm just gonna shoot over a guy and you
know, drain three possessions or three jumpers and four possessions, which is what
he's done so many times in that championship run. To just calm everybody down,
kill, kill the opposing momentum, all that stuff. They really do
miss him a ton. I don't. I think he is very important.
They're just like grinding out every other advantage they can find. I mean,
you mentioned the offensive rebounds. That's a very Bucks thing. It's new for
them to do so well without Brook Lopez on the court in that arena.
And I think a lot of credit to Bobby Portis, who did not have
a good shooting game but really hustled on the boards, which has been big
for him this season. But yeah, I think it. I would love
to see him back for Game six. Again, you just don't want to
do an unsafe thing. But I do think the way Bud talked about his
status a couple of games ago, I think it's certainly possible we see him
at least before the end of the series, if not tomorrow today, whenever
people are listening. I like that Bud said he's going to keep the starting
five a state secret from now on or whatever. Keep everything is State's secret.
It's funny the way he did it, but it's so everything has been
so Bucks. The Chris Middleton injury update, Yeah, he's doing all right.
We'll let you know. That was it. That's great, Thanks for
the update. Really appreciate sports books are thrilled. Oh, yeah, they
always are. I would be I'm with you, presuming he can't do any
further damage or he's fine and can play play him. I don't know that
I would want I would want to see him in game six. If he
doesn't play game six and there's a game seven, I don't want to see
him in that just because he hasn't played in so long. I do wonder
if there would be something to the effect of if he doesn't hurt you,
doesn't even really help you, is he someone the Boston could then target on
defense, depending on how he's moving, what is stamina is like? And
you have a little bit of a margin for error now because you have the
one game cushion. So if you bring him back in game six, if
there is a game seven, or maybe he's just fresher for the second round,
should you win to your point? Though, like even after game five,
the the drew Holiday minutes without Janie, the Bucks have been slaughtered.
They've been on scored by thirty one points and forty minutes, And there there
approach probably needs to be we're throwing the kitchen sink at you when Yannis isn't
on the court and that would be Chris Middleton and Drew Holiday, and you
could probably just give it who else is on their team flesh out their roster
from there. What have you made though of the offense when Yannis is off
the court? Like, is that redeemable in any sense? When you looked
at how Drew Holiday has played, and how big do you think it was
that Drew Holiday actually you know he still had he took you and I were
messaging about this. Some of the Drew Holiday early shot clock jumpers were giving
me heart palpitations. He closed the game really strong. How important do you
think that might be for him offensively over the course of the rest of the
series in the playoffs. I think it's important for those closing situations. But
I still think that the Bucks need to do a better job, and this
mostly does come down to Drew of getting other players involved in the nony honest
minutes, I think there's still too much of Drew trying to do so much.
And again, I think it's a valiant thing. I don't think it's
selfishness. I think it's him trying to it's him knowing we don't have Chris.
Jannie is sitting you know, it's me and good players, but I
am the star who's out here now. I need to carry this load,
and I think it's probably better than him just completely deferring in those minutes.
But there needs to be a better balance struck between I will take over and
let's see what Grayson Allen can do if he's out there. And one of
the things that drives me crazy is if you're going to play someone like Grayson,
who the Celtics and Jalen Brown especially are clearly enjoying finding on defense over
and over A really annihilated him with the fourth it was almost mean what they
were doing a grace now. It was it was like there was just no
resistance there, and that's just you know, I don't think he's a terrible
defender, but if you're an okay defender in those moments, you can function
as a terrible defender. It's the issue Bucks LN this with Brent Forbes as
well, who is worse I think than Grayson. But still, but I
think they need to get Grayson involved on offense if he's going to be out
there, because you're not playing him for his defense. So if he's shooting,
let's see seven times over thirty minutes, only two of them threes.
He did have five assists, or at least they got him you know,
they got the ball moving through him more, which is nice. But I
want to see more shots for him in those minutes, more shots for pet
Cottadon, who also only shot seven times. Glad to see Bobby Porter's take
fourteen only makes four. Not an ideal game, but still at least wasn't
completely holding up the offense. You'd rather shoot good looks and miss than just
not shoot and stand around and watch someone else shoots. They any better ball
movement, They definitely need more of those guys taking shots. At one point,
I think they've in Grayson Bobby Portis pick and roll that Porters scored on
one of his four makes, and it was like, let's just do that
like half the time when it's just drew out there. I mean, that's
those are two good offensive players. There's a lot of shooting threat there.
Get Bobby moving. I think they need to get all the big guys moving
towards the rim more, even Brook who I think that would help him score
more in this series, but I definitely think he's still doing a little too
much before crunch time, and they would be better off if they could get
somebody else going. I mean, nobody besides ju Andiannis scores more than Portis
is fourteen. They need a little bit more help from these other guys still,
especially as we get later and later in this series, and Drew and
Jannis have done so much already when you're looking at how they match up with
the Celtics and the different units that Boston has run out there. We don't
really know as we're recording this, if Robert willas the third is going to
play in the next game, what do you view as sort of a tougher
like structure of Boston junior from Alwaukee to match up with where they're going with
small Brown, Tatum, and White plus Horford, or when they're playing the
Grant Williams and al Horford together and you know, Derek White is probably on
the bench in that scenario. Honestly, it probably just depends on whichever of
those two is playing better. It seems to me like I think theoretically the
Grant Williams one is tougher for Milwaukee because that gives you you have more than
one guy you're comfortable guarding. The honest I think it's so it's much easier
than you know, if you do get out of whack, if you're in
semi transition or whatever, you have two options who you're fairly comfortable guarding the
honest, So there's just more chance you'll be able to get one of those
guys I knew him, Versus if you're coming up and you know semi transition,
everything's crazy and al Horford's on one side of the floory honest is on
the other. It gets a lot harder to then get him over there to
guard him without giving up an open shot or something. So I think they're
theoretically better with Grant Williams. But after his offensive explosion in game three,
no two whatever it was, maybe it was four, no whatever, I'm
not going this game too. Everything blurs together, I know, I know,
I do think it was game two. Since then, though, it
seems like Milwaukee's adjustment for him specifically was just nothing from the corners, and
they've really cut down his corner threes, and I know his splits are pretty
drastic. If you look at his three point shooting from corners versus everywhere else,
he's much more effective there. He seems less comfortable everywhere else. He's
gotten some more like elbow threes in this last couple of games and hasn't really
even wanted to shoot them. And I know I've read a couple of reports
about this from I think like Keith Smith had one that email. Judoka has
had huge problems with him, you know, complaining the officials and missing an
assignment because of that. That's happened in multiple games now, which is playing
into him playing less as well. And Derek White just played well, He's
hit shots. He was not very good early, he's been better late.
So I think if you're Boston, you probably just have to go with the
guy who's helping you more actively right now in a series like this. But
I do think they would the Celtics would be better off if it was Grant
Williams who was giving you more, because that's just a much better Janice option
defensively obviously than Derek White is as well as I think he's played on both
ends over these last two games. Yeah, and they went at Jalen Brown
a little bit with Jannis two in game five. And so if you remove
Grhat Williams from the equation, does that theoretically give you two players that you're
comfortable having the honest attack against, and so I am with you there,
I think offensively though at this point because of how and it was game too,
so we ended up being right on that. How disinvolved Grant Williams has
been, it would probably almost prove them to have Derek White, who's going
to give you definitely more rim pressure, more of a connective passer, even
when he's not scoring. So you might be losing some shooting with Grant Williams,
but hey, you're not taking threes in the fourth quarter anymore. Anyways.
You need Grant Williams score. What is And I know this depends on
matchups, but so the Buck's closing the game with Jannie Drew it was Connaton,
Portis and West. Is that like the ideal closing lineup for them where
you don't see Brooke on a court as long as Robert Williams isn't in,
I think that probably is. The real question is the Porter spot, And
I think he was really his offense was not there in Game four and budgets
slash his minutes. I think he played like fifteen minutes because he kept passing
up wide open corner threes to like dribble in and then miss shots in the
paint, and I think it drove Bud crazy and he just lost his minutes.
You know, he ends up playing twenty eight and a half minutes in
this game despite not not making a lot of shots. I think he made
a bigger difference on the boards and took better shots again, even if they
weren't falling for him. But I think Matthews and counted in, I think
they're penned in there like they're not. They're not coming out of games in
this series late. So if the Celtics are closing with Robert Williams, maybe
you see Brooke in there. I think Bobby right now would be the favorite.
And again we'll see what could possibly happen with Chris. I don't know
if he would ever be able to close a game six. That would be
tremendous, But I think the Bucks don't like now at this point in the
series, Lopez out there again. Horford as the five. No matter if
it's Grant Williams or someone else at the four, It's just that the Celtics
got too many looks from three. Obviously, Horford burned him two games in
a row, got the crazy winning Game four, so I don't expect to
see Brooke out there unless Robert Williams is. I would imagine Portis will be
the favorite going in if somebody like George Hill who has not played very well,
or even a Grayson Allen has a really good game, than maybe,
But I think the Bucks trust Portus more defensively than Grayson, and he gives
you so much fun offense than Hill, so I would imagine that he gets
the nods. Still, did you see anything in that fourth quarter of Game
five that you view as translatable to the future games of the Bucks how they
slowed down Boston's offense or was that more of Boston kind of slowing it down
themselves and the Milwaukee scoring so we're able to just get their defense set and
get back quick, or was there anything in particular, and even looking at
the entire game, I'll Horford had seven shots after being supern over for this
entire series, there's anything specific you noticed about how they were covering him or
is that just another you know, the Celtics missing him on certain opportunities or
not. You know, it didn't feel like they were looking for him as
much on like picking Pops as they've been throughout the previous four games. Yeah,
I think, you know, I do think a little bit of that
is as great as he looked and as much as he leaned into a game
four, maybe it was only because of the honest stairdown, that's what he
seemed to say. I still don't think that's El's preferred thing to do.
But I also think the Bucks were like, we're not. I think their
game plan for most of the series has been we are only going to let
you shoot threes that we want you to shoot. And they fell up,
they fall up, they fell apart, and their losses especially, But I
do think they're working more to toggle away some of those wide open threes.
I think now it's like, if you're gonna shoot threes, it's gonna be
like off the dribble around the screen, which Tatum was two for eleven on
threes. That's He's had so many games that you just keep saying like,
oh, he's not going to keep shooting like that. At some point,
hopefully somebody gives the Bucks a bit of a nod for doing a hell of
a job defending him, not saying you're not. But I just keep like
this pod cast does a great job of watching and analyzing both sides. I
just see so much of like, oh, Tatum's gonna get it together soon,
like probably he will play better soon. But the Bucks are doing a
tremendous job on Tatum, and they're just not giving guys like Grant Williams and
in game five, Al Horford those like really wide open, beautiful corner threes
that you want. I think that kind of coincides with brook Lopez playing less
and being less effective when he does play because he's not dropped back as far
anymore. The biggest drop I think Janice was dropping back really far at points
at times in game five, and I didn't think it was a good idea.
I don't think he should bother doing that when he's covering Al Horford,
because you do tend to give him those shots. Although again, he wasn't
able to capitalize in this game. But you know there's gonna be some threes
where a guy like Jaylen Brown will just hit a couple and right and right
in the closeout's face. You know, guys like that hit shots like that.
But I do think the Bucks a little bit went away from the paint
dominance to a little bit more say, you're not going to hit the open
threes, You're gonna have to beat our defense to hit shots. And that's
I think why you close with a guy like Wesley Matthews, who, although
he has been good offensively overall in this series, not always going to do
that, but they just trust him so much defensively. So it's like him
Jannis Drew Holiday. You know, even if we don't have the paint lockdown
by Brooke like usual, because we are closing out on these threes, we
trust those guys to clean up whatever they need to, and Drew showed why
that was a good idea to end game five. Yeah, west Is,
I agree with you that the Bucks have done a pretty good job on Tatum,
and a lot of that has been just Wesley Matthews. Yeah, I
was looking I was looking this up earlier this morning on possessions that Wesley Matthews
registers as a defender of Jason Tatum. So not even a direct contest,
the self descripting point eight five points per possession. That is threnny one at
home who doesn't really that is absolutely terrible even for this series. So yeah,
that's absolutely huge for Milwaukee. So kind of wrapping up the discussion lead
into game six of potential game seven, what is your biggest concern for Milwaukee
non Chris Middleton Division leading into the game six and put the potential game seven.
Yeah, I think it's I mean, one, I do think there's
a there's a chance that we just see a Tatum explosion at some point.
It kind of happened a little bit over the last two games. But you
know, is he going to go for forty five points or something? And
do the Celtics get another game without score Milwaukee a lot from three? I
think you look at Game five, the Bucks end up out scoring the Celtics
from Game three. I don't have the number in front of me, but
I imagine in games when the Bucks score more points from three than their opponents,
they probably every ridiculously good record because obviously the honest is going to add
another, you know, a few dozen points that aren't threes, and you
know, three or six or whatever, then our threes. But so I
think that's probably the biggest concern now is just the Bucks continue to play good
defense, but the Celtics are just like, you know, we're going to
make shots anyway, which I do trust Milwaukee's defense to not give Boston all
like streams of wide open threes anymore. I think that that is that would
you say, and sorry interjective sort of a bud doing this? Is that
growth? Is that like progress for him? I think so, yeah.
I mean it's it's you know, it's there's still a lot of gripes.
I think we were Grayson is still playing too much. I don't think he
should have seen fourth quarter minutes. But I do think there's more adjustments than
people give him credit for, even if he's still not you know, Nick
Nurse or anything like that in terms of in terms of overadjusting. And I
think a lot of what Blood does really well as a coach are things that
are pretty impossible to define, you know, the culture and that kind of
stuff which I really didn't care about or didn't realize I guess didn't didn't think
about until after they won and thought about all the stuff they went through and
how many times we've seen teams go through similar things and not hold up as
well. So I think that it's hard to define how good of a job
Blood does. But I do think in that sense that yes, he is
more flexible now, more open to changes. I think now the big test
will be, you know, can Javon Carter scrape a couple of minutes in
here when George Hill isn't accomplishing much? Love Devon Carter and it's just like
it's so good, and just like, is George Hill giving you even enough?
And I get Javon Carter is tiny. Yeah, but like, look,
even just if you don't want Grayson Allen on the court for a certain
minutes, like Devon Carter is going to give you way more defensive pressure than
I mean, George Hill, Yes, but he's gonna give you more defensive
pressure than Grayson Allen. So I just can we can we dust off Devon
Carter? Please? That would be great. I think the thing about him
too is you throw him out there for a twelve minutes or whatever. That's
twelve minutes of full court pressure on whoever's bringing the ball up for the Celtics.
And I do think outside of getting a steeler a backcourt or whatever,
like it just degrades your offensive usefulness. If it's harder to get into your
action, less time on the shot clock, everyone's less comfortable. Like that
stuff matters. I would certainly like to see him get some run. You
know, I think if George Hill does play, put the ball in his
hands a little bit more, because that's his other advantage over Carter is he's,
you know, a better and more proven on ball creator. But the
Bucks just used him as an off ball player. And if you're going to
do that, then play Javon, who's shot much better from three this season.
It's gonna give you more defensively. I think he'll still struggling with like
an injured vertebrae in his neck or something like. It seems like eighty different
serious injuries this year. Yeah, I mean, he wants that ring really
bad and he wants to win one in Milwaukee. You've got a feel for
him. But like Axel Tupon got a ring, George, like, you
still get one even if you're not playing every game, like don't like,
like, let's think about your long term health a little bit, Like you
still help the team. You still deserve it for contributions before the trade for
Drew Holiday. But yeah, I would like to see Javan play. I'd
like to see West play a little less. And you know, if Chris
comes back, that changes them. Of course, how much everyone is gonna
play. But yeah, I do think Buds just grown a little bit and
said a little bit more of you know, we'll go small when we have
to. I think the Phoenix series, Bobby Portis was closing out games and
they would switch more, and that's like, you know, they never would
have done that before. So it's it's nice to see the Bucks. You
know. Maybe they ran their heads into a wall a bit still here and
there, especially offensively, but I think defensively, i'd say a little bit
less. So although the shots they gave to Alan Game four absolutely made me
sick, so I shouldn't get too far and praising their adaptiveness. I'm with
you, though, it seems like it's even like some of the minutes that
Budd has been playing where we're talking about, oh, because you cut down
Wesley Matthews minutes. You know, Bud like two years ago might have had
him at a fifteen minute cap or something. Who knows. I don't even
want to talk about that Bubble Miami series. I yeah, you met the
Javon Carter point you made about his full court pressure, and I didn't look
at the data how often they ran this, but like that would be sort
of another option to neutralize and it's a pick and roll combination everyone is trouble
defending. But like Adjason Tatum, Marcus mart pick and roll Javon Carter.
You know, if you want to use Jannis and Drew Holiday to defend that
action, yes that is you don't always want to use Jannest to do that.
But also Javon Carter just sort of be bumping them out of that offense
a little bit by giving you that full court pressure. And look, you
got six fouls to let him use them, and you have to slow down
the game and maybe help your players catch breath that way. I'm curious who
you think needs to if we assume Chris Middleton doesn't play, who is the
third most important buck? I mean, so it's tough. I think in
terms of importance to the team, I think it might be a different answer.
But in terms of importance, as in what version of them is going
to show up, I think it's Bobby Portis, just because like I just
think we know what we're getting from West Matthews and Pat Conan and they are
super important. Like again, they're both locked in closings, which I think
is hilarious because two months ago, maybe today if you ask a bunch of
random NBA fans, like, what do you think about Pat Contadon and Wesley
Matthews closing games, They're probably be like that team must stink, but they're
quite good. And they've been really good on both ends, west more than
Pat on defense, but certainly Pat Moore on offense. But I think Bobby
Portis he continued to be the closer, a fifth guy who holds up on
both ends. And how much different is this game, even this last game,
if he's eight of fourteen instead of four for fourteen, right, Like,
can he give you that rebounding and holding up defensively? He's not going
to be great, but can he continue to hold up there, get you
some extra possessions on offense and score more effectively. I think that could be
a big difference for the Bucks. I mean, he has not had a
three point shot of these last few games. I think if he comes out
plays really well, it's knocking down some threes, that could be huge for
Milwaukee. So I'll say Bobby Portis with the caveat that Wes Matthews for the
defense on Tatum and the spacing and offensive punch which has been really nice.
These last couple of games, and Pat Connadon, who's just always been their
most reliable two way wing outside of Chris. I think those guys are obviously
super important as well. It's Bobby Fortis. He mentioned his defense. He
You probably have two and most underrated switch defenders in this series in Grant Williams
and Bobby Portis. I think Grant Williams is noticeably better than Bobby Portis,
but totally ever since the middle of last year or whatever, Bobby Portis has
been like fine on switches, which is just not like, I don't know
if it gets talked about enough. That's my ten thousand foot view. I'd
probably pick Wes as the third most important book because you already laid it out.
The responsibility has with Tatum, and I didn't really subscribe to the idea
that Boston needed to get a floor general type over the off season. And
now I'm watching this series and if you can really rough up Jason Tatum or
make life difficult on him, he and Marcus Smart together, like, yes,
you can run your offense that way. Al Horford's a good playmaker.
Robert Williams a third's a good stationary playmaker. Derek White's a good connective passer.
The more I watched this series, and I actually I'm curious as your
thoughts now that you know you've watched the series very intimately, is that something
Boston could actually benefit from. It's not oh, they need a start point
guard. They need sort of a floor general who can delineate touches, especially
down the stretch of a game like we just saw where it felt like they
were this is the cliche of all sports cliches. It felt like they were
protecting their lead, We're afraid to lose, rather than like they were just
going through their stuff. Yeah, I think so. And I think his
excellent as smart hiss Ben at times in this series, and I think he's
getting killed too much. For the end of Game five, there was a
little bit of like, holy crap, the ball is in Marcus. Marcus
Smarts hands a ton offensively in the last minute of this important game where the
lead is going away and things are happening. I mean, I don't know
if you could identify any moment where he truly made the wrong decision. I
mean, the drive that ended up Jannis getting that I think led to the
Drew three. That one was pretty bad. But like the steal that Drew
made, I think he just fumbled a little bit and Drew was there before
he had any chance to get the ball to Tatum. And the drive on
that play where Drew Block did It's like somebody had to do something. Everyone
was like, oh, he should know the bucks based defense. Why would
you go towards the rim? And I'm like, who is able to process
all of that in real time? Pat Connaughton, you talked about this a
little bit on your pod. John Showman pointed it out on Twitter. Pat
Connaton blew up that ato and yes there was there was a different way to
do it. Like he blew it up so much that Jayson Tatum like didn't
even start to come off of the Al Horford pinned down. And did Jayson
Tatum just know that Marcus Smart was doing the wrong thing? You would have
to I guess I wasn't watching that closely enough. That was kudos to Pat
Connatton. So I'm with you. I thought he got too much shit for
what happened. I mean, he was bad, so was the rest of
the Southeast team. Yeah, I mean no one else did anything, and
that I think to your point though, that is the point, right in
terms of you know, I think they could use someone. I think the
Bucks could kind of use a player like this too, to be quite honest,
especially with Chris Out Drew and Jannat. Sometimes I think Jannat really good
decision maker and passer, but all the work he does scoring, you don't
want him also bringing the ball up to initiate offense for other guys. I
mean, if you watch them, they sometimes, especially like earlier in a
fourth quarter, not when it's real crunch time, He'll just be like kind
of off to the side some of these possessions. That's just him wrestling like
he needs that with the energy he exerts. I think that's another kind of
the reason I'd like to see Javan play a little bit. Is Jevon Carter,
like Mark Smart, has dealt with like fifteen injuries this series. And
I remember, I think it was before he missed Game two, and they've
got him bringing up the ball still and Drew is covering him, and Drew
is picking him up at like three quarters court, and it's like, are
you really you really making Marcus Smart with like a bad arm bring up the
ball against Drew full court like that sounds like absolute hell, and it with
a better arm, it didn't work out well for the Celtics to end Game
five. So I do think they could use another playmaker like that for sure,
as could Milwaukee, as could a lot of teams around at that many
point gods out there unfortunately, but I think that had shown and that is
another reason I like the ball pressure early to kind of just again further come
up what Boston is doing. And I'll wrap up this discussion here with how
do the sell if the Celtics win Game six? Why are they winning Game
six or why are they even coming back in this series? Is it something
you notice about they've done for long stretches for games at the time of keeping
Milwaukee limiting their transition opportunities. Is there something you've noticed that they've been able
to do. Is there something that you look at them that they could do
leading into Game six the rest of the series that you think could continue to
throw the Bucks off kilter, because look, they basically controlled most of Game
five. It's like we could very easily be talking about the Bucks going into
this winner go home game rather than the Celtics. Yeah, I think,
honestly, what it's going to come down to and not to you know,
oversimplify or not dive in too much here. But it's something you said earlier.
The honest is going to impose as well. I just have no doubt
about that. It's will the players around him make too many mistakes or miss
too many opportunities. I think there's gonna be shots there. I think there's
gonna be good looks there. And also you know the eight seven, maybe
less than seven in game six, the minutes he's not on the court,
how bad will those be? But I think really it's like everyone around the
honest because you just trust that your honest will come out here probably around forty
points, you know, double digit rebounds, a good number of assists,
if guys are making shots. I think that's what it comes down to.
You like, can Celtic crowd the paint and hold him off? And do
the other Bucks not make you pay? Do they absolutely get immolated in the
non the honest minutes? I think those are going to be the big questions,
which is ironic because this goes back to like the Eric Bledsoe days.
I mean, this has kind of always been the question for the Bucks is
can everybody else do enough. The signs from guys like Pat Connadan Leslie Matthews
have been good, but you know, can we get even though he shoots
four for seven from deep, Can we get a better than nine for twenty
four game from Drew Holiday, Can we get better than four for fourteen from
Portis? Those are going to be I think the questions. And I do
think if Milwaukee gets a better scoring game from Drew, a more complete one,
a more sound one and two three maybe of those role players have solid
offensive games, I think it's going to be really hard to beat the Bucks
in five surf here for the Celtics, as good as their defense is,
there's just not really a defense out there that can take away Honest one on
one, and then if you're not able to do that, you're either giving
him too much or giving everybody else too much. So I do think if
the Bucks can execute around the Honest, this series should be theirs for the
taking. But a lot of work left to do against a very very good
Celtics team. How do you think this series ends? What's your what's your
predictions? Gotta be Bucks in six? I mean I was about to create
it years ago. Yeah, yeah, I mean I asked him the follow
up question was with the herd Bucks and six hours. That's for the culture,
is what he said. He also said, what am I supposed to
say? We're gonna losing four? I mean, what else can you say?
And I was like, it's a good point. I don't know what
else you could say, Brandon, But yeah, I think bucks and sex.
I said that before the series. I certainly didn't see it playing out
the way it has. It's been, as we talked about before we started
recording, such an exciting up and down series. But that's very bucksy in
two to get the bucks in six result while also making you question your existence
like three times on the way there. Yeah, I'm rooting for Game seven
just as the impartial deserver because I love chaos. I will say, though,
I don't know if I'm getting too caught up in the moment, because
I said Dallas was and I picked them to losing five. But the songs
anyway, so I was missing the mark. But I thought Phoenix obliterated their
soul in game two and I just thought that series was over. I'm getting
like that vibe again where it was just like if this is the Celtics where
they haven't really progressed enough from the past couple of years. They're over,
they're finished, but I'm just not sure if I'm recency bias is kicking in
here. Their response is after the game I thought were mostly great. I
give players credit for being able to like after these super emotional losses or victories,
and have to give these even keeled answers because my first insect would be
like, you know, what are you expecting Jayson Tatum to say, you're
supposed to be sad that they lost and that we're gonna lose or throw market
smarter the bus. But I'm like, in the heat of the moment,
like maybe like, but even honest. The other night where they lost Game
four, he was like, you know, we gotta go out. We'll
win game five. We will win Game five, then we'll have to try
and win game six. I'm just like, I applaud these players for being
able to keep their composure under these circumstances, because I absolutely would not.
I'm like having panic and anxiety attacks over trying to figure out what's happening to
the series by a game by game basis. Is just honest, is such
a machine. I love him I'll never be able to late to him for
the way he processes these moments, which is why he's, you know,
a great player on pace to be an all time great player. After the
game, they're talking about, you know, your eyes bleeding. They did
the postgame interview on the court, and he's just like, yeah, you
know, it was tough, but I'm good. It's like that's that's basically
all he'll say. Ever, sometimes he gets introspective. That's more before a
game in the finals. That great quote was before a game I believe about
live in the past. That's your ego, et cetera. But yeah,
I think credit to the Boston don't don't think it's going to be an easy
game six. I'm not. I'm not trying to write off Boston by any
means. No game really maybe Game one, but not really any game.
It's been easy for the Bucks, but I just think they find ways to
do it, and that's what they've been doing for for a little over a
year now. So I'm just gonna ride with him. I did want to
touch on this, even though it's been an exhausted topic as someone who covers
Gena's attend to Kubo, what have you made of the MVP discourse, even
predating the actual announcement, Uh, that NICOLEO Kitchend won it back to back.
Yeah, we all knew, right, we had known for a while.
I think with the amount of tabulated ballots that were released publicly, I
know it's not definitive, but I think everyone kind of. I mean,
it's basically become like the Woes and Sham's announcing the draft picks before they're actually
call We just know who wins all these awards based on the straw poles that
are out there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was furious Joker's a
fake. No, I'm kidding. I thought I thought Nicol yok the creation
of the spreadsheet leaves. Yeah, yeah, No, that's the stupidest thing.
Like you can look at the most basic of stats, Yoka's clearly rocks
and all of them like this is not you know, screen assists or warp
per thirty six or whatever, Like it's very obvious what he does, Like
you don't need any of these things, Like you can throw out all the
schlarps. Zak Low would say, it's very easy to tell that Nicola yokas
rocks. I thought the records thing was overblown. I thought any of Janni's
Embiid yokis were deserving. I do think Janni should have finished ahead of Embiid.
That's my hottest MVP take ahead of Embid on my hypothetical bout. If
that's any consolation, Yeah, I mean, I just thought the way that
both of those teams did the season, it was better for your honest although,
I think I think Johannis had a sliver of a chance after the Sixers
and Nets wins the same week, and then they like implode versus Dallas and
just had a pretty end of the season from there. So you know,
I just think because of Brooks injury and because of the run they had prior
to this season, Milwaukee kind of was just like, let's just get through
it, Like, let's just survive this regular season, have a good enough
seed, and we'll go. Well, we know what really matters here,
right is the playoffs. It's unfortunate. I think regular season stuff matters,
but from Milwaukee in particular, it's not their goal, and I think Lopez
not being there really hurt their defense, which also hurt Janniss dpoy case.
So I kind of went through the whole year like, yeah, he's probably
not going to get anything except first team All NBA, which is fine.
There's a lot of great players in the league, and the Bucks are really
not a all that fun story this year watching them every game, it was
like, oh my god, they have so many stinkers. The defense isn't
good, Like it's very mad. So I thought Yo Kisch was a deserving
winner. I think he's gonna now suffer from the honest thing. I don't
think he'll touch another one until he has more postseason success. I think,
you know, you win and then get swept out of the playoffs twice.
It's not his fault by any means. The Nuggets are a hospital unit right
now. But I do think he's now going to suffer from that same deal
of like he probably just won't win again until he can go, you know,
win a finals or have another gutsy playoff performance, which he has done
before. But I do think he'll probably suffer from that now and someone like
mb or Luca or maybe honest, we'll have a shot next year and there's
not a fur over that where it's like we just know that voter fatigue exists
because how many MVPs will Lebron have if there wasn't voter fatigue, right,
and that's just a matter of fact. I can't stand the I'm with you
on everything you said too. I've seen people compare this, Oh, we're
gonna look back like we did with Westbrook in twenty seventeen and say that he
was just like given this artificial bump. I don't think it's gonna be the
case because of everything you outlined, where I feel like most of the levelhead
of people were transparent that it could be Yoki Yannis. A lot of this
comes down to a matter of preference, A lot of it comes down to
splitting already split hairs. What I just can't stand is people saying, oh,
well, you're focusing on the numbers too much. Watch the games,
and then their inclination is just to cite the numbers of seeds or the number
of victories that a team has. Wins aren't a player stat, like they're
not a player stat. And as you mentioned, like the gap in victories
here was just so small between Joannis and Ebiad's teams then Yokich's Nugget teams.
I just I don't understand the uproar and if if you're angry that he's eliminated
in the first round of the playoffs. That's another thing I don't get because
it's like, why does it matter that Joel embiid he helped the Sixers survive
without Ben Zimmons, But Yokich helps the Nuggets survive without Jamal Murray and Michael
Porter Jr. But because they have zero All Star appearances under their belt,
it's different. I want to know how many people leading into this season would
have been inclined to say that a healthy Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Junior would
have been better than Ben Simmons given the playoff series he had last year.
And I think I'm wondering if this would my solution here, and look,
if people want a different paddle of voters. I do think it's a joke.
Some of the people that have votes. I do. I do think
some of the ballots are. I mean, I don't want to I don't
know his name. I don't want to call out someone too specifically, but
the Drummond for dpois Day. I've seen him in person. He's exactly the
type of person you would think that he is. Though I have no problem
calling him out. I yeah, like it's that stuff, and it's there
are people who put a lot of effort into it and there and I'm not
even I have so much respect for beat writers. I also have so much
respect for just localized coverage in general. But like, do these people,
the ones that are especially traveling were you and I are doing our job from
afar at this point can probably chopper in for more of these games across different
markets. How many of these beat writers for specific teams have the time necessary.
I'm not saying pulenty of their votes. I'm just saying like that could
lead to inherently full And there are people who are talking heads on TV that
are tesked with covering every single sport under the sun, Like do they have?
So if you have a problem with the voting process, the fact that
there are incentives and max eligibilities tied to all this, it makes me super
cringing. And if I had a real vote, I wouldn't actually want the
real vote because it would make me feel dirty. There. I am wondering,
though, would having postseason specific awards change this at all? Like?
Would it? Would it sort of make it make it more easier to accept
the results that we're seeing in the regular season. Yeah, I think so,
and it seems like they're going that way now. They just announced some
more trophies for like playoff finishers, and is there a Player one two now
the Larry Bird and Magic One. I don't remember if that's just for I
think it might just be for the conference champion in general. But I think
I've seen this idea in the last couple of days. I think they should
do an all Playoffs team. I think if you look whether it's Madness,
Yeah, they did all Bubble team, they do March Madness. I think
does all all teams that n C and Double A tournament or whatever they call
it actually EuroLeague, I think does an all team? Right? The Olympics,
I think does one is? I think the NBA Playoffs is like the
only major basketball tournament that does not release an All Playoffs team afterward. I
think you can do two of them, honestly, first and second team.
I would say no positions because I think that doesn't help anyone at all.
But I do think that they should do that, and there should be more
recognition outside of only finals MVP and obviously the championship and just the last thing
on Yokich. I mean, I think a fun game for anyone who thinks
he's not deserving at forty eight wins, three less than the Sixers and the
Bucks is go down the rosters of the Sixers and the Bucks and find the
worst player who would be Yoki's best teammate. And I think you're going at
least two or three or more players down in both cases. With Murray and
Michael Porter out for so much of the season. Yeah, I mean,
look, and this is splitting hairs, but it's like you can even just
look at the top, like Jannesta, Chris Middleton and Drew and then and
B did get James Harden at mid season, not the James Harden they thought
they were going to get. They had Tyrese Maxie all year and he had
a hell of a season, right and so and look, that might not
be the way to look at the MVP. And if that is the case,
like then there needs to be a sort of a set of criteria,
a minute threshold trying to define value. I think the MBA enjoys that the
ambiguity they do of the value valuable. Part of this creates the debate I
would love to see postseason awards though, And let's also I don't know if
this would help, but I think it would make the discussion more salient,
Like, let's carve out some kind of a gap between when the votes are
due and the start of the playoffs, and let's let everything just trickle out
then rather than during the postseason. It's so stupid the way they do it
now, and it is it is a bad I don't want to say it's
a bad look, but it does give fuel to the idiots who want to
argue that Yokis was eliminated in the first round he's the MVP, when you're
actually naming him the MVP after he was eliminated in the first round. Well,
it also also, what is the argument against being able to honor the
player at a home playoff game, which, certainly for the MVP, they're
always going to be in the first round. We're never going to see an
MVP who doesn't make the first round. That that, if Yokis didn't make
the playoffs, would be on board saying yeah, he can't be MVP.
I think that is a fair threshold, and I don't think that needs to
be codified. Maybe it should be. I don't think it has to be.
I don't think it would ever happen, But that makes so much sense.
Game one, your first or whatever, your first home playoff game is
all of the fans there can celebrate the award with you. That makes so
much more sense than you know, oh, the cool video of Yoka China
Horse, Yoka China Horse content rules, but it should be in. It
should be with the fans where the guy plays. It makes so much sense,
and they're just like, no, we need to roll it out slowly
during the playoffs so that we can do our stupid awards show that no one
watches. And I'm sorry, I'm sure a lot of people put a lot
of work into the award show. Everyone knows the three awards. It's not
a thing anymore. Didn't get they don't do They not do it at all.
Now, that's why the trip. Oh, that's why they just roll
it out now and oh okay. I appreciated the attempt by them to try
that, but it was just very clear after the first one, like no
one even cares about this anymore because you just watched the NBA Finals and now
it's over. Yeah, uh Ti, this was great, Thank you so
much for hopping on. Are you able to tell our listeners where they can
find you and all the fantastic work that you do. I sure am,
that's one of the things, the only things I'm consistently able to do at
ty Windish on Twitter, t I W I N d I c H.
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As I'm sure you know by now, I will be pesturing you again in
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