1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:09,839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,279 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,839 we'll get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:23,519 at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,399 your twenty twenty four NDC schedule. Will be at as many NDC conferences as 7 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:32,200 possible this year, and you should consider attending no matter what. The Copenhagen 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,079 Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends April 9 00:00:37,079 --> 00:00:44,759 twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth through 10 00:00:44,759 --> 00:00:51,240 the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot 11 00:00:51,280 --> 00:01:07,079 com. And we'll see you there, we hope. Hey, guess what 12 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,760 it's dot net rocks Live from Bild. Okay, not live from bill but 13 00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:14,319 we're at build. I'm Carl Franklin, Beth Massy is here with us. 14 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,200 We're gonna be talking to her in a minute. But first, the weather 15 00:01:18,239 --> 00:01:23,400 report from Seattle, gray, cloudy, situation normal, Well it was northwest, 16 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:29,200 lots of rain, it's mild, it's very much. The sun did 17 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:30,799 come out for a brief moment yesterday, Yeah, for a little while. 18 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,159 Yeah, and then it's like just kidding, Yeah, listen, we value 19 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:38,840 when sun does show up, we go outside because it doesn't happen very much. 20 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:44,359 Right, anyway, let's jump right into my better noa framework, all 21 00:01:44,439 --> 00:01:53,159 the crazy music. All right, what do you got? Well, this 22 00:01:53,239 --> 00:02:00,879 is a nod to how long the three of us have been in the profession. 23 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,519 Oh my goodness. Some of you remember Vim? Oh sure, yeah, 24 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,199 the editor? Yeah, the editor. Well, now there's Neo VIM, 25 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,280 NEOVIM dot io. Is it the one? It's the new Vim, 26 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:20,120 Yeah, the one hyper extensible VIM based text editor. Oh no, So 27 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:27,280 the API is first class discoverable version, documented message pack, structured communication, 28 00:02:27,439 --> 00:02:32,800 enables extensions in any language. Remote plugins run as coprocesses safely, and they 29 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:38,560 synchronously and the list goes on and on. Is this like, you know, 30 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:46,919 congratulations on making the ultimate console based text editor. They really went nuts, 31 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:50,759 right with all the features. Yeah, yeah, you know, editors 32 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,680 became when VS Code came along and sort of said, ah, here you 33 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,639 go here, I have an editor. Yeah, works everywhere. So I 34 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,599 think it's and it made a difference. Yeah, a good editor does make 35 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:01,639 a difference. And then you know it's well received. Well, the bigger 36 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,000 thing here is the book exiting VIM, right, Like that's one real thing? 37 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:09,879 Is it? Colon w Q Yeah, yeah, something like that. 38 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,879 I don't know. Hey, it brought about us trying to use vim on 39 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:16,240 you know. So I think it was Don Box who was like, you 40 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,719 know, Vim, that's what I used, and I tried it and I'm 41 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:24,120 like, reminds me of word perfect. Yeah, from the nineties. Yeah, 42 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,159 don't do that. That's so funny. All right, all right, 43 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:30,479 I love it. That's what I got. If you're interested, go for 44 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,080 it. He was talking to us today. Rich Ah grabbed a common Healf 45 00:03:34,159 --> 00:03:37,240 show eighteen thirty three, the one we did back in February of twenty three 46 00:03:37,719 --> 00:03:42,879 when we were in Sweden Sweat Hug and Stockholm, and we grabbed Orton Now 47 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:47,080 and Maddie, the two troublemakers of Maui to talk about the state of Maui 48 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,520 because coast things have been moving pretty quickly. Yeah, and I think that 49 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,280 was the first time we ever talked about Blazer Highbred. Yeah right, and 50 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,879 I think we're probably going to go there today too, So it only made 51 00:03:55,919 --> 00:03:59,719 sense. And Rob Gardner had his comment, admittedly from a year ago. 52 00:03:59,719 --> 00:04:01,639 He said, I can confirm that, yes, you can put a Maui 53 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,759 and Blazer wads a app in the same solution and share controls in a Razor 54 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:10,960 class library. Then you can employ to pretty much everything except maybe Xbox. 55 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,520 It should be a little employed. I'm okay with that. It's coming to 56 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,959 my default way of building applications. You never be sure you won't want that 57 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,120 web app to include a phone app later down the line, so you know, 58 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,240 just not blocking your options. If I go this way, then whatever 59 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,399 happens later, I can make that for other devices. Really, this is 60 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:30,439 great, he said it all. We don't even have to interview back. 61 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:34,800 It's like, don't you Samuel use Blazer and the end of story. Thanks 62 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:42,160 for playing faces on stunt kirkout. Yeah we come a piece. You can 63 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,879 laugh, Oh, Rob, thanks so much for your coved. We're you 64 00:04:47,879 --> 00:04:50,279 know, it's the last day of build. We're all a little a little 65 00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:54,319 silly at this point. So thanks again for your comment, and a copy 66 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:56,199 of music codey is on its way to you. And if you'd like a 67 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,600 copy of music go by. I write a comment on the website at donnat 68 00:04:58,639 --> 00:05:00,399 Rocks dot com or on the facebooks. You publish every show there, and 69 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:02,600 if you comment there and I read it on the show, we'll send your 70 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,399 comed mused to go by. Yeah, and if you can follow us on 71 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:12,360 x you can Twitter. It used to be Twitter x Twitter. That's what 72 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,839 we'll call it, because it used to be you can follow us on x 73 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,959 Twitter. We've been there for a long, long, long long time. 74 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,800 But the cool kids are hanging out on macedon. I'm at Carl Franklin at 75 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,879 tech Hub dot social, and I'm rich Campbell at macedon dot so, and 76 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:29,800 of course you can get in touch with me millions of ways by going to 77 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,839 Carl Franklin dot com. Okay, let's bring back our good friend Beth Massi. 78 00:05:34,959 --> 00:05:38,480 She's been on the show several times. I don't have the number in 79 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:40,959 front of me, but Richard probably will look it up by the time I'm 80 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,720 done interviewing her for reading her bio. Beth is a product manager on the 81 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,680 dot net MAUI team at Microsoft and is responsible for making native device and hybrid 82 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:58,040 web development in Visual Studio a delightful experience. Formerly the marketing director and community 83 00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:00,480 manager for dot Net, as well as serving on the Board of Directors for 84 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:04,959 the dot Net Foundation, she has spent her career helping dot net developers be 85 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:09,480 successful. Boy, ain't that the truth? Yeah? Welcome back back, 86 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,399 Thank you guys. Seventh visit to dot net rocks. But hey, first, 87 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:19,600 most importantly, how's fox pro doing? You know, I still talk 88 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,600 about fox Pro at work sometimes because I do a lot of querying with Coupstone, 89 00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:27,680 so that stopped me a lot. You know, relational database theory. 90 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,319 You never forget it. It's always It's always there, isn't it. Yeah, 91 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,319 we're all And I was always a clipper guy when you were. I 92 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:41,000 started clipper yeah back in the day. dBase Yeah, legit, dBase two 93 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,319 on the Apple too, with the sixties with the Z eighty zlog board plugged 94 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:47,600 into it. So now that we've established for all the same age with them, 95 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:53,600 very old with vim yeah, Remax I think was Don Box's favorite text 96 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,480 editor. Man. Oh wow, okay, so somebody just asked me this 97 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:03,240 at Mary Joe's thing. Right, We're sitting talking to some geeks and somebody 98 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:09,199 said, you know, I see that you're a proponent of using Blazer in 99 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,519 Maui when you're building Maui apps. You know, what do you think of 100 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,360 using xamal? And they said, don't. I have to admit I'm in 101 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,240 that camp too. I've just never really grocked zamal. Ever. Yeah, 102 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:30,480 I think more importantly is that Microsoft has to do everything in zamble and make 103 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:36,879 it work everywhere that CSS works now and works well across all platforms because the 104 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,480 market made it that way, you know, over many years, right, 105 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:46,920 and so they have to do all that themselves. It's a powerful language if 106 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,560 you if you grock it right, you know. But yeah, but just 107 00:07:51,079 --> 00:07:56,439 I had never really had the patience I think for it. Well. I 108 00:07:56,519 --> 00:08:01,120 did some some classes in it, of course, and i'm classes, I 109 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,439 mean teaching, And there was a situation where I think it was a list 110 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:11,120 of view or whatever. The you know, zamar informs come Maui version of 111 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,319 that is. And when you have these nested things and blocks and stuff, 112 00:08:15,319 --> 00:08:18,639 it just fell down on iOS, worked great on Android, fell down on 113 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,920 iOS. And that's where it dawned on me. It's like, you know, 114 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,759 this is a big challenge Microsoft has to make this work everywhere whereas you 115 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,560 know, CSS is done. That's correct. And you know, I'm a 116 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:37,759 big proponent of Blazer Hybrid obviously. Actually, Maui hybrid. I'm gonna talk 117 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:39,200 to you guys about you know, some things we're going to do for dot 118 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:45,240 at nine that's not Blaser only. Yeah, so Maui hybrid full stop, 119 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,279 like hybrid with other things just Blazer correct, great, that's interesting. Correct 120 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,960 with other JavaScript frameworks we're going to bring bring through. Yeah. I just 121 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:54,320 for a minute there, I thought you were advocating, you were saying good 122 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,159 things about CSS, and I'm like, who are you, Carl Franklin's pretty 123 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,240 strange. I mean, I don't do great things with CSS, but there's 124 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:03,720 a lot of people that do, and it's easy to find them, you 125 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:07,080 know. So that's it. And you know, the simple things that I 126 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,559 wanted to do, I could do very easily. And there's just so much. 127 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,759 There's so much, you know, do a search and find exactly what 128 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:18,639 you need. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Actually we're doing a lot of 129 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,759 cool stuff with co Pilot too, and and and Maui. So yeah, 130 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:26,879 a lot of tools. I'm on the tooling side too, So we got 131 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,080 what what does it mean to have a cool stuff and co pilot for Maui. 132 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:37,279 So like, imagine asking co pilot to just design your application and write 133 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,200 the xamal for you, right, So like actually that in that case, 134 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,960 and I'm like, Okay, I don't need to write right exactly unless the 135 00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:48,360 exam is fundamentally broken, right, And so that's what we have to do. 136 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:52,720 We have to train the co pilot to understand the Maui flavor of zammal, 137 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:56,240 right, because it's a different flavor. Yeah. Well, I'm, 138 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:00,519 like I said, I'm a big fan anytime that I'm creating Maui app Now 139 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,600 I'm using Blazer because I've been and I've been doing this now since Blazer came 140 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:09,840 out, right, and arguably I wasn't the best assp neat web forms developer 141 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,840 when it came to design. I just made things work. Yeah, but 142 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:16,679 I really got into it at Blazer. Yeah, And I mean we're making 143 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,840 it like a lot simpler to just build apps that allow you to reuse your 144 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:26,200 code across the web, Blazer, Web and Mali at the same time. 145 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:33,320 So next month we'll release Next month and done at nine Preview five will release 146 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,840 a solution Tamblet that allows you to just start with project and sets up all 147 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,840 the glue for you so that you have a Razor class library you could put 148 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:45,080 all your UI and a shared interfaces you're using to do the functionality of that 149 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,799 UI. Actually that's my demo here at build I have a little demo theater, 150 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,320 you know kind of thing, and it's like a twelve minute demo and 151 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,320 yeah, and I show how to you know, you can even like multi 152 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,720 target the Razor class library, so you can turn on and off UI depending 153 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,240 on the platform. The only challenge you have there is you have different hosting 154 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:05,000 models. You know that you kind of have to you have to have different 155 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,600 implementations. And is that what if this comes down to in general, full 156 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:11,879 stop, right is whether you want to be on a mobile device, whether 157 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:13,919 you want to be on it as a web page or you want to be 158 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,279 as a desktop app. It's just a hosting model. You're trying to write 159 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,960 one set of code that all these models can pick up and make a reasonable 160 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,799 looking client for in that form factor. Well, Maui does a lot of 161 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,879 that abstraction for you, you know, and when you're using blazers that you 162 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:33,440 are you're really just but you're still using Maui, like the non visual parts 163 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,759 of Maui, right, So it does. It does eliminate a lot of 164 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,639 the code that you would have to write for each of the platforms. That's 165 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:41,840 the whole point of Maui. However, if you start with Maui and you 166 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:46,759 take advantage of the platform APIs right, don't expect to be able to publish 167 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:48,480 that on the web, right, because exactly have those things there. But 168 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,039 if you build it for the web, right, and then that will move 169 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:54,600 obviously with JavaScript in or op and all that stuff, and you can mix 170 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,519 a match. You can do native and web techn act. That's a really 171 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,519 good important point that you don't have to choose one thing for the whole application 172 00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:07,200 RT right, correct, Yeah, you can mix the man well, And 173 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,480 thinking about Rob's comment too about he's it sounds like he's actually building a web 174 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:13,559 app or a desktop app, and he's just hedging his bets that he might 175 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,840 need to build a phone app. Because my instincts have always been the use 176 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,759 Yeah, you're building you're using Maui because you need a phone app. Yeah, 177 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:22,720 and then it's like, oh, I'd also like a web app and 178 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:28,360 a desktop app, and I'd argue that that was the weak part, right, 179 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:31,320 that it was really good at building one code base for both iOS and 180 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,399 Android, and then the web app was okay, and that's not bad voice. 181 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,600 Yeah, I mean sometimes you just want the store distribution and reach, 182 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:43,919 you know, so like instead of you know, having to advertise a u 183 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:46,440 ur L, sometimes it's easier just to get into the stores and have people 184 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:50,879 like install it. He's yeah, that's what p WA's are for. Man, 185 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,279 here's your icon let your cell phone. Yes, too. That must 186 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,279 be a common question for you. Should I just do a Blazer PWA or 187 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,120 should I make a mau app. It's just a depends on what you want. 188 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,679 I mean, Uh, some things are just really hard or impossible to 189 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,240 do in web only. So you do need a native you need a native 190 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:11,080 shell, or you need a native like controls, or you need a native 191 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:13,799 thing you needn't access the file system like and you need to do I don't 192 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:16,480 know, because you know, the web is pretty powerful. I have to 193 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:20,080 admit, you know what I mean. These days you can do almost anything, 194 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,720 but just some things are just hard. And check out that deployment model 195 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:26,080 right, Like that's like local storage on a Blazer web assembly. It is 196 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,440 a pain. Yeah, bar in light and this is the wrestling match I 197 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,759 have these days when I get to where my you know, senior architects had 198 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,159 and sissedmin had, It's like, really, you want me to deploy software 199 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,159 again? Like it's hard to justify. Yeah, a desktop client app because 200 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,960 it's you. It puts a lot of costs. Some apps have to be 201 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:52,279 like so rich though, and so like the experiences have to be so on 202 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:56,000 on or you just need Ali app then because that you know, when you 203 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,679 when I talk about your rich desktop apps, it's straight WPF these. Yeah, 204 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,960 but if you want to if you want to target Mac and Windows and 205 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,559 don't and don't have like two teams to do that, that's the win r 206 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,840 Yeah exactly you can get Yeah, because I'm not gonna argue with you on 207 00:14:09,879 --> 00:14:13,159 that. That a number of max in the workplace these days. It's big. 208 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:18,000 Yeah, it's not consumer app. You got to you gotta have that 209 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,039 clients. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I am persuaded. Well, you 210 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:26,320 know, on the what are the downsides? Right, let's we talked about 211 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,960 some of them. But you know, why would you Let's just stick with 212 00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:33,080 Zamal and Blazer because I've only made an aesthetic argument here. I have not 213 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,519 talked about a feature problem. Yeah, why would you Aside from what I 214 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,960 mentioned with zammeal and that you if you run into problems, why what is 215 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,080 the is there any benefit of using Zamal over Blazer. Well, so you 216 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,320 know, some argue that native experiences are the best experiences, and so depending 217 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,320 on your application, you may, like, especially if it's a consumer application 218 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:58,679 and you're you're betting on beautiful, deep, rich experiences that you want the 219 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,480 Android app to look like Android and feel like Android. You want iOS to 220 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:05,120 feel look and feel like with a Blazer, you know, everything looks the 221 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,960 same because you're just using the platform web view or render the UI more memory. 222 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:11,639 Well, you guys have to the edge control a little more memory. 223 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,679 Yeah, and I mean then you have then you have like then you're doing 224 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,519 CSS tricks, right, Like I like Ionic, does you know they have 225 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,960 a really nice you know, nice styling depending on what you know, platform 226 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,200 you're on, and it really does kind of look like the app. Because 227 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,159 they can't make that argument for corporate apps. They want them all the same. 228 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,000 Yeah, and some people want that, right, So yeah, Malady 229 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:37,879 doesn't like draw controls like they are in the native control. So that's like 230 00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:41,200 the you have two options, right, you know. There that's the strength, 231 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:43,000 there's a strength. That's a very good point. And do you think 232 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:50,279 that people still want to have an iOS looking app versus an Android looking app? 233 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,200 Or they just want I mean most line of business, large enterprises those 234 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,320 types of apps. Probably not when you go it's a retail app. Yeah, 235 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,519 when it's like an summer But there's a lot less of those out there 236 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,279 than there are business as. I think it depends what the what the company 237 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:08,720 doing, right, Like you know, you're in the banking business and you 238 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:12,200 want to climb it's something for your customers. At that point, you might 239 00:16:12,279 --> 00:16:17,600 have enough resources that will just go fully native and just have multiple code bases. 240 00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:19,200 I just don't know if that's worthwhile. You know, one of the 241 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:25,039 things I've talked to teams where they have native you know, native developers for 242 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,720 both stacks, right, and one of the things they really focus on is 243 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:30,559 releasing simultaneously, right, because their customers get really angry when an iOS feature 244 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:33,159 shows up before an Android feature. I am. And so you know, 245 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,279 the nice thing about the common codebase is like you know you're going to release 246 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,759 together. Although now now it's down to even the store delays or a problem. 247 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:44,120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you never know when the store is going 248 00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:47,639 to when it's a week, it's two weeks, Like you just don't know, 249 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,240 right, you said that, you know, Ionic does some CSS tricks 250 00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:56,320 to make up the platform look more platform me. Are there other things that 251 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:03,480 you would recommend that we can use in Maui Blazer hybrid apps too? So 252 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:06,880 right now we're kind of playing with fluent right now. So the Fluent you 253 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,640 know, I can, but like a lot of commercial components are really powerful 254 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,480 too, you know, like yeah, I personally I talk to more customers 255 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,799 that are you know, building line of business enterprise, and they they are 256 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:25,720 not as concerned with that. But there's a ton of library like CSS is 257 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:29,279 so you know everywhere, yeah, you know, and you can do any 258 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,880 you know, whatever you can do on the web, you can do in 259 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,640 the web view, right Yeah, I mean I love fluent UI, but 260 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,200 for a long time it was really a win UI thing right first and foremost. 261 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:42,599 Yeah, and then you know you can kind of do with WPF, 262 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,880 but it's better now. Yeah, I mean we have we have there's the 263 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:52,440 fluent UI maintainer. You know, it's because open source has examples for Blazer 264 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,119 and we're one of our engineers is working on one for Hybrid and so yeah, 265 00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:02,119 there's controls for React for iOS or Android for mac os like yeah, 266 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,240 and that's what's kind of cool because we're talking also to a lot of customers 267 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:11,319 that have like dot Net customers that already have major JavaScript framework investments like React 268 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:17,400 or view or Angular, right, because you know, before Blazer, that's 269 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:19,200 kind of what we had to do, like right a sp dot Net was 270 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,160 really just the back end, right, Yeah, And so what we want 271 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:29,160 to do is we want to be able for them to use those frameworks also 272 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:33,839 in Maui. So we're building a hybrid WebView control. So like the Blazer 273 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,640 WebView control that's in Maui today, this will just be a hybrid WebView that'll 274 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,440 allow you to communicate between JavaScript and c sharp, right, So that'll be 275 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:48,480 an option for folks that you know, sometimes you have like third party components 276 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:52,599 that you want to pull in and they don't offer a dot Net library, 277 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,440 but they have a JavaScript thing. So you can go ahead and pull that 278 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,240 in. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up Blaze ions Blaze icons 279 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:04,400 dot com. I already put it in as a link. Basically, this 280 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:10,119 is a Blazer component where you can multiple Blazer components that you can pick whatever 281 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,279 icon set you want. Bootstrap dev Icon, Fluent, UI, Fluent UI 282 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:22,759 filled font awesome, regular and solid, Google material round sharp, filled, 283 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,440 outline, solid, whatever, two tone ion icons, lu seed and material 284 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,279 design icons. So they basically wrap them all up. You pick which one 285 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:36,759 you want and then use a Blazer component to show the icon. That's amazing. 286 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,240 Yeah, yeah, that's it's a strong community around, like it's not 287 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,920 just it. This is like the whole JavaScript and you know HGML community right, 288 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,160 like it's big boy. You're really running out excuses to make on ugly 289 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,319 web page, aren't you, Yeah, because you can just drop things in 290 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,079 and yeah, there's just no reason they here they are, just drop them 291 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,200 in and go. Yeah, you know you don't have to think that much 292 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,200 as a developer who doesn't like to design anything. It's pretty nice. Well 293 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:08,240 to me, it also is, and don't impair the designer when they do 294 00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:12,200 show up and want to apply a design to right. So it's like you 295 00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:15,960 can use tools that they're you know, really happy with, like Figma or 296 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,359 whatever, and like, you know, give you that debt designs. I 297 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,359 was always question of is it both ways? Like if I've gone certain path 298 00:20:22,519 --> 00:20:26,839 down a path building something, then the designer appears like have I impaired them 299 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:33,519 with what I can? Yeah? I've certainly had that experience, right stuck, 300 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:37,000 I put bootstrap in. What more do you want? You got to 301 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,519 go through the whole app and change your CSS exactly? Yeah, all right, 302 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:45,319 I mean it's it's an interesting space to be and to just think through 303 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,359 all of these variations of you know, what do you need? You know 304 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,640 again call back to Rob. I'm building the desktop app, but I might 305 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,599 need a phone, so I'm going to stay in this in this library. 306 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,799 Or I'm building phone apps, but some people want the web. Yeah, 307 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:03,039 And we're also building a lot of tools to help you quickly build like some 308 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:07,400 of these these types of things. So like MAUI is you know, we 309 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:11,480 got the Maui extension for vs code right, it's in pre release. It's 310 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:18,160 eminently gun to ga. We know we've got some really I think we've got 311 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,880 some really cool tooling coming in just Visual Studio proper. I'm more of a 312 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,400 Visual Studio user myself, and uh and you know, I see a lot 313 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,079 of you know a lot of customers, enterprise customers, a lot you still 314 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,079 use Visual Studio, and so we are investing a lot in the tooling there 315 00:21:33,079 --> 00:21:36,880 too. Some cool things I think, uh, we like to we'd like 316 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,160 to do uh in in the like done at nine timeframe, uh in Visual 317 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,480 Studio, just to make kind of you know, working with hybrid apps a 318 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,240 little bit more delightful, like actually having a live preview that will you know, 319 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,319 allow you to kind of select into the WebView itself and get at the 320 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,400 razor components we're looking at that. If that's possible to do, I think 321 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:02,079 that would really help kind of speed up, like just investigating where the razor 322 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,640 components are and the layouts and that sort of thing, so that you don't 323 00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:08,680 necessarily have to look at the rendered content. You know, on the once 324 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:14,599 you go into the the F twelve developer tools in Edge or Chrome or whatever, 325 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,519 you know, you're kind of already looking at the rendered page. You 326 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:19,559 know, you're not looking at the components that created it, right, So 327 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:22,759 we're trying to figure out how to make that experience better too. So it's 328 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:26,160 all good news. Yeah. You know. One of the announcements that happened 329 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,759 this week and build was the Snapdragon machines. Of course they're focusing on that 330 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:36,119 being copile a PC, but it's like that's Windows on ARM. Yeah again 331 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,920 it's back and and somebody asked her, we're gonna make a Dona Rocks about 332 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,680 this, and like, there's nothing to say. It's just gonna work. 333 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,240 I don't think you're gonna need to recompile, right, use it? Okay, 334 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:51,400 we're done. Yeah, I mean that's what we did a lot of 335 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,160 work in visual studio to get a visual studio on ARM. Like so if 336 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,880 you're running like visuals, I mean I have a I have a macim one 337 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,319 and I'm running parallels and that's in it. That's an ARM you know base, 338 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,759 so you know what you're doing through emulation that way. Yeah, I 339 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:07,200 know one, So flip them fast? What do you care? Right? 340 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:08,839 It is really fast and a lot I mean a lot of I see a 341 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:14,480 lot of you know, users using a Mac that way because you can build 342 00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:17,319 for all of the platforms at once, you know, with one machine, 343 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,880 it tends to be you're you're all versatile. Yeah, you U seemingly parallels, 344 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,200 but then you compare to your own Mac, and you know, use 345 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:29,079 the emulators and and you can you have like your your Android emulators, you 346 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:33,039 have your simulators for you know, through x code. There you just pair 347 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,079 that way. So I see, I see some people doing that. Not 348 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,039 not a ton We're making the Paradomac experience hopefully better, so that when you 349 00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:42,519 pair to the Mac, you actually pair to the Mac Catalyst and the desktop 350 00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:48,279 two. I basically use get ub as my thing, right, I push, 351 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,359 I push it to get up, I go over to my Mac, 352 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,519 I pull it down, and I run out there you go. It just 353 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,319 works, Yeah, but also speaks to the reality of its two machines, 354 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,279 right yeah, I think that's two platforms to machines. Yeah, are using 355 00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:06,240 the extension for vs code vs code. Okay, so your studio a vs 356 00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:07,720 code when I need to for a demo or something. Okay, Yeah, 357 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,960 it's getting a lot better. Sure, Yeah, I mean like you like, 358 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,720 don't even like I think Wendy was showing kind of in the context of 359 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,279 a spire yesterday, but there's a lot of just like now, I don't 360 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:22,000 need to know, like all the commands, I can like actually click a 361 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,440 button to create a new project. You know. So if you're a Visual 362 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,680 Studio user and you want to like, you know, build a Maui app 363 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,559 on your Mac, like, that's kind of the path you're going to need 364 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:34,720 to go. Yeah, the Visual Studio for the Mac is no more. 365 00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:40,079 Yeah, it's it'll be out of support in August. Yeah. Yeah, 366 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,720 I have used uh, visual Studio code to do things like there's easy ways 367 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:49,440 to deploy a static web app, you know, uh, and you can 368 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,000 create the project and do everything right on GitHub and pull it down and press 369 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,400 a button in Visual Studio Code and it's running. That's that's the idea is 370 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,599 to make sure that the solution and the projects are all compatible. Yeah. 371 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,200 I love that. Yeah, that's all good stuff. Now, it's impressive. 372 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,480 And then dev kit in vs code really took you know, now you 373 00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:15,240 forget that studio's job is also a project manager, right and then but dev 374 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:18,519 kit really brought that to code now that yeah, yeah, the solution explorer 375 00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:25,599 experience there yeah yeah, well, and I certainly talked to teams where they've 376 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:30,680 got a set of devs who are only in code, right mostly web dev 377 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,480 and so they were just weren't able to see a lot of the project. 378 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,599 At the time, they didn't even think in the terms of the project. 379 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:37,079 But then dev kit came along that it was last year. Now I think, 380 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,480 yeah, I did release last year, and so suddenly they're, oh, 381 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:42,759 there's a whole bunch of other stuff going on. It's like, welcome 382 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,759 to the project. You actually have a view of what's going on in this 383 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,960 right. It just makes the I don't know, the context switch between Visual 384 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,920 Studio and vs code so much easier because you're like, oh, here's my 385 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,400 project, here's my solution. It's a good year, here's my debugger, 386 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,720 here's hot reload. But I mean they've added all of that, so it's 387 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,400 pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes me wonder how long Studio 388 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,759 has, you know, I think it has a long future. I mean, 389 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:15,880 honestly, there are so many more tools that I think are critical personally, 390 00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,880 Like hot reload is awesome, but like if you don't have like that 391 00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:26,599 live you know, view of your app, it's kind of just yeah, 392 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:30,640 it's warm. It's like yeah, right, and we're and like I said, 393 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,759 like, you know, we're just trying to make the tooling experience a 394 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:38,400 little bit more richer, I guess, and in Visual Studio as that's kind 395 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:44,160 of where that's where traditionally where everything really is. And you know the value 396 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,880 of Visual Studio is a lot of in that that kind of tooling when it's 397 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,680 not like you guys don't push out an update to Visual Studio like every month. 398 00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:55,200 Yeah, we're monthly, monthly release. I mean vis Code is weekly 399 00:26:55,839 --> 00:27:00,680 pre release, Visual Studio proper is is monthly. Where recording this, it's 400 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,000 seventeen ten, right, seventeen eleven P one released this week and yeah, 401 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,559 yeah, seventeen ten gad this week. So seventy ten is GA now, 402 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,680 but seventeen eleven is underway, like it is a continuously updated product. Yeah, 403 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,880 And as a as a product manager, who's you know, trying to 404 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,920 get stuff in the SDK, trying to get stuff in you know, dev 405 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Kit, vis Co extension or Mali extension is trying to get stuff like working 406 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,480 across all of these trains. Yeah, it's it's it's time. I've been 407 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,359 on the team for two years and I still don't know which ones which sometimes. 408 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,680 But yeah, there's multiple wiki pages to go look at schedules and things 409 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,119 like that, And not to be a heretic, but it's like, why 410 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,319 would we want a new version of Visual Studio. Well, we got it's 411 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:45,160 continuously updated. We kind of know where things are. We just got the 412 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,960 new copilot interface in like, oh, like a Visual Studio twenty twenty five 413 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,079 or whatever. Yeah, what would we make a major version? What would 414 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:56,880 that even do? Yeah, I mean I don't, like, I don't 415 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,839 know who, Like I know who probably makes the decision, but I don't 416 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:07,039 know when it's not me that makes that decision, like win a major version, 417 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:10,880 major version, and for what? Right? Because it's disruptive too, 418 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,359 right, Like, yeah, I mean, but usually when I'm like, 419 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,720 think about your own software. When you when you do a major version upgrade, 420 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:21,039 there is something major breaking changes, right, that's the usual thing. 421 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:23,480 And hey, nobody who wants breaking changes? Yeah, you or you add 422 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,440 some very significant feature to it or something like that, right, well, 423 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,279 copile it's pretty significant. Yeah. Hey, we got to break for a 424 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:37,759 moment for this very important message. We're back. It's dot net Rock's amateur 425 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:42,039 Campbell. Let's call Franklin hanging with our friend Beth Massey. Hey, and 426 00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:45,440 hey, if you down in love with the ads that we're getting these days 427 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,119 because we've been working hard to try and get better ads. But you know, 428 00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,359 there's limits to the systems that I'm afraid, and we're still working away 429 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,480 at it. There is another option that is to become a patron on Patreon 430 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,720 and you will get ad free versions of the show Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot 431 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:04,359 com. There you go. Yeah, well you hinted about a hybrid mode 432 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,920 beyond Blazer, yes, Maori for all the things. Yeah, so we 433 00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:12,519 one of our engineers along Lipton. If you've never had him on the show, 434 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:15,640 you should probably get him on the show. He's amazing. He's been 435 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,279 at Microsoft forever. Yeah, and I chat with him on a regular basis, 436 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:22,880 so I sometimes forget we should probably put him on the show. Put 437 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,200 him on the show. He's awesome, an amazing engineer. He does all 438 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,920 things hybrid. He's the original driver for MVC back in the day. Yeah, 439 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,440 he's been all around sp dot net forever. Yeah. So he has 440 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,119 an experiment that I think it's been a while. I think last last year 441 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,759 at MVP Summit, we kind of wanted to get more feedback about it. 442 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:48,200 So it's been it's been an experiment for over a year. Now it's a 443 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,440 new get package. It's called Hybrid Malle Hybrid WEBEW and we have customers using 444 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,200 it today and so what we we've gotten enough feedback where where we really think 445 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,880 that it's time to bring it in to the Maui repository and get it as 446 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,839 a control in Mali itself. Yeah, this also speaks to a very cool 447 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,000 thing. It's in Alion's repository right now. Yeah, right, so this 448 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:11,359 is alions experiment. I think other people who contributed to it. Yeah, 449 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,839 yeah, we Yeah, a lot of people have contributed to created a pull 450 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,720 request, even some Microsoft employees in other divisions. And then and then it 451 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,079 becomes a conversation of should we put this in the product, like right, 452 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,319 yeah, that's exactly right, And then you know, yeah, and then 453 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,599 you know and I you know, we have actual customers, you know, 454 00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:32,240 using it, and that's when we're like, okay, now we know like 455 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,200 their use cases. We can kind of outline what a minimum viable product would 456 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:41,119 look like right there. Now, if you go into the Mali repository, 457 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,880 you will see Hybrid WebView. You'll see Alan like you know, issue like 458 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,880 issues he's created so he has work items and he defines kind of what we're 459 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,640 going to when we're going to get in there for Dottin at nine. So 460 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,240 with a hybrid WebView, is it opinion opinionated about which framework you use? 461 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,240 Is it just completely open end, completely open ended? So a developer does 462 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,440 the same thing, then, yeah, so you you actually have to build 463 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,200 your app. You build your JavaScript frame whatever whichever however you do that right, 464 00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:15,000 whether it's React or view or Angular or just plain old javascripts, whatever 465 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:21,200 you want, right, and you stick that into like the raw resources raw 466 00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:26,160 folder in in Maui so that it it'll deploy with it, and then you 467 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,680 basically similar very similar to Blaser, right, except laser Laser has a whole 468 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,720 project system for and everything right where it does this for you, right, 469 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,920 but has like dub dub root for you and all that. So when you 470 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,200 in just like the Blazer WebView, you point, you point the hybrid we 471 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:44,720 view at where the index is or where the starts, where your start h 472 00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:48,559 tmail is and then just that's it takes off from there. So that's like 473 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,359 a brain especially if you already have an app that's built. Right exactly you're 474 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,079 talking about wrapping existing software if you want just to give you all those options 475 00:31:56,119 --> 00:32:00,480 exactly, and it's all it's all like, it's all static, you know, 476 00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,119 this is like all client side. I mean, obviously you can make 477 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:06,759 calls to the server and that kind of thing if you need to. But 478 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,160 the whole idea is just to like, you know, if you have existing 479 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:14,759 uy in another framework, you can render that through Mali too. Don't have 480 00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:19,519 to rebuild it or anything, just render it through good feature. Well done. 481 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,720 Yeah, well so we buy nine time frame? Maybe? Yeah? 482 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:25,720 So I'll you know, now, I know you've got to go home and 483 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:29,759 tell alone that I told the whole world about this and they better get it 484 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:35,240 in. You're admitted now we don't. But I mean the reality is, 485 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,279 if you want to use it, you can't. It's sitting one. I 486 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:39,240 mean, right, we don't make it for some reason. There's still a 487 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:43,440 new get package available that you can use. Yeah. Yeah, I can't 488 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,640 imagine why you wouldn't. But things happen, too, right, things happen. 489 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:51,920 The world is a strange place. The solution template is in I saw 490 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,079 the pull request. It is in. It is in dot at nine preview 491 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,400 five, which will release next month. Oh wow, okay, so are 492 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,680 there other new things in Mali we should be thinking about. Yeah, so 493 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:07,000 what we're really focused this year on Zamoran migration. Right, So, Zamoran 494 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:10,720 reached end of life. The SDKs are and out of support as of May 495 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:17,880 first, and so we've been laser focused on helping our existing Zamoran user base 496 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,039 migrate forward. Okay, so actually I talked to a few, you know, 497 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,359 few folks at the conference today and asked how everything's going. We have 498 00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:30,920 a you know, an email if you're struggling right now, it's Mali Dash 499 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:35,519 Upgrades at Microsoft dot Com. We're on the other end listening and trying to 500 00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:39,960 help. It's really important that people migrate because not only is the SDK's out 501 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,039 of support now, we're not servicing that anymore. The tools are still in 502 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:46,279 Visual Studio. They're marked as legacy and you can still install them if you 503 00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:51,559 have to just copilot know how to do this. We have an upgrade assistant 504 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:53,839 that will help you get started. Okay, So the upgrade Assistant does a 505 00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:58,160 lot of things like not just zamor into Mali migrations, but it does like 506 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,880 you know, Donne framework to Core and like it does it does a different 507 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,400 workloads, like you know, but yeah, there is an upgrade assistant that's 508 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,119 a visual studio add in as well as a command line that will kind of 509 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:12,360 help you walk through the process. But this depends on you know, how 510 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,199 many bindings, third party bindings you were using that may not be available today 511 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,119 and things like that. So it's not going to be like, oh, 512 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,079 fifteen minutes, you know kind of thing. You're really going to need a 513 00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:25,559 plan in migration and depending on how large your app is, and so we've 514 00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:31,239 been really focused on making sure that the compatibility is there, Like the SDK 515 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,119 quality is very important. You know, maybe you work with the third party 516 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:40,159 tool developers to make sure that the you know, yeah some some like some 517 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,559 you know, it's like we don't want to maintain all these bindings anymore. 518 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:47,079 As the Maui team, we just can't do it. Zamor in the company 519 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:51,840 could, but like we just don't have that kind of you know, bandwidth 520 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,920 to be honest, and we're looking at different you know, binding, like 521 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,679 different style of bindings. David Art now probably like we're talking off about what 522 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:05,440 they're thinking about that. But then the other option is this hybrid hybrid WebView. 523 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,599 I've seen some customers decide you know, hey, we don't have a 524 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:10,559 dot Net bindings for you know, this library that we were using, and 525 00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:15,239 we're just going to use the JavaScript version of this. But so that's where 526 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:22,400 we're really focused on. The stores will stop accepting Zamoran submissions. I think 527 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960 Apple probably in a year, and we might be able to give you a 528 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,840 little more like Google might give you a little more time than that, but 529 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,920 you know, like you really need to be focusing on this year. So 530 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,480 that's what we've been trying to really do. So we've been so as a 531 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,280 as a broader team, you know, and especially on the SDK SI, 532 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,840 we've been focusing a lot on iOS and Android. Okay, so because of 533 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:50,280 the Zamoran folks stuff for time exactly exactly, I'm still very you know, 534 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,519 I'm still looking very heavily at desktop scenarios by the way though, because from 535 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:59,079 the Blazer Hybrid side, we see a lot of desktop. Sure people want 536 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:01,920 contemporary Yeah, you know, we work with our partners in Windows and the 537 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,599 whin u I team, and you know that those that the partnership is still 538 00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:09,800 there and they're still committed to when u I guy's part of Maui. But 539 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,559 there's announcement this week about when U I and WPF. Yeah, and they're 540 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:16,400 also investing in WPF as well, So yeah, tell me, tell me 541 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,639 more. I knew when you I was, you know, when U I 542 00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:22,239 three is early there, you know kind of thing that's that's where all new 543 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:29,440 modern Windows native Windows apps when U I three correct. But what's the deal 544 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,559 with WPF. So WPF there's just a lot of customers like they have WPF 545 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:37,320 right, and they want a modern look and feel and they want some of 546 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,559 those modern you know UI concepts that when U I three has two and so 547 00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:45,639 they and because the Windows I'm not going to speak on behalf of Windows, 548 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:49,199 but like I know this part of the story, they are investing in both 549 00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:52,159 of those stacks. Okay, I'm in developer division, and I don't like 550 00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:55,079 to talk about Microsoft is all these divisions, but it is kind of like 551 00:36:55,159 --> 00:36:59,880 helpful sometimes to realize, like, hey, we rely on teams across micros 552 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,639 and actually it comes to Hybrid. It's even more because the WebView team is 553 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,559 edge right, so that's you know, another team that we rely on that 554 00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:13,119 so all of these pieces work together. But yeah, from the MAUI teams 555 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,519 perspective, like we're really, we really are trying to help our Zamoran customers 556 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:22,239 be successful moving to moving to Maui. It's really important and we've seen like 557 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,800 so much growth in Maui. It's been really exciting to see since dot Net 558 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,760 eight release, there's you know, one hundred and sixty percent more apps in 559 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,840 the app store at this point that are Maui based. And like you know, 560 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,440 depending on you know where you're coming from, if you're brand new or 561 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,199 you're coming from from Zaman, we're having we're seeing more success. We're with 562 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,519 our customers now, so I think we're in a much better place than we 563 00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:51,079 were like a year ago. Well, we have a dot net Rocks Maui 564 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:53,239 Blazer hybrid app out in the app stores. Cool, but it needs to 565 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,960 be updated, so that's on me. I haven't updated it since I did 566 00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:00,840 a whole bunch of bug fixes and things. Okay, well, I mean 567 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,119 in the announcement this week was really about that when UI and WPF are both 568 00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:07,360 first class citizens and Windows and the main thing they said, they said the 569 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,960 thing that I always focus on, which is what is Microsoft using to build 570 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:19,079 Windows apps? And that's when UI three primarily correct and so those are the 571 00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:22,199 way things are going to be updated. But they did make a specific point 572 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:28,840 about WPF getting updates to be able to make Win eleven looking apps because When 573 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,480 eleven has an aesthetic correct, And I just feel like, you know, 574 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,519 WPI has had a lot of love in a while. We also have investments 575 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:37,400 in wind Forms too, By the way, that that's a developer division side, 576 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,079 it's an open source and you know Mary and Klaus, so I don't 577 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,079 know if you have ever talked to Klaus on this, He's awesome. So 578 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:47,159 getting back to this Windows thing, I just want to make sure everybody who's 579 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:52,239 listening knows that you can build a MAUI app that targets when UI, but 580 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,719 you can also just build a WPF app and use Blazer in it. Correct, 581 00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:02,679 Yes you can. You're not you're not building across platform applications anymore maybe 582 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,280 web web and Windows only, right, But yes, that is absolutely true, 583 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,719 and actually you could do it in wind Forms as well. Yep. 584 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,960 In fact, I did a demo here with Don Weba from dev Express using 585 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:20,480 a Windows Forms app having Windows Forms UI and then adding Blazer UI. Yeah. 586 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:22,679 I watched that. It was cool having them talk together. Yep. 587 00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:27,280 Cool it's all WebView. At the end of the day, it's the same. 588 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,320 It's on Windows, it's web U two, So that is the edge 589 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,320 team that runs that, right. Yeah, I'll include a link to the 590 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,159 when building with win Ui three in dot net, just because I think most 591 00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:40,360 people just think of it as O C plus plus library, right. They 592 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,639 don't really know that it's available in the dot net much less. So you 593 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:49,960 could tie it in through about Maui as well. Are there any limitations doing 594 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,840 when Ui with Maui as opposed to doing win Ui directly and bi directly, 595 00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,360 I mean not with Mali. Nice, So the Zamal flavor is different, 596 00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:07,400 you know, so Mali you know kind of you know, abstracts things across, 597 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:12,199 standardizes, right, standardizes it across. So I am not like we 598 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,559 started. I am not a xamal developer, So I'm going to say, 599 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:19,559 I don't know, maybe fair enough. Yeah, it's fair anything else we 600 00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,679 should know. Being here at build, I know, it's just so awesome 601 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,199 to see you guys, good to hang out. Yeah. Really, it's 602 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,280 like I feel like, so my career has come full circle. I think, 603 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,760 you know, I have never been a feature PM, so this was 604 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,599 like my last you know Horizon. You know, like this was like the 605 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,400 fast fast challenge in my life. You know, we were all very happy 606 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,480 when you led marketing for Dona. Yeah, I mean I loved it. 607 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,159 Yeah, I loved it. It was it was fun. But to be 608 00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:49,239 honest with you, you know, I am a computer science major. I've 609 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,239 been a programmer. I started Microsoft like when I was in my thirties. 610 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,079 I was already in the industry doing software, building software, and uh, 611 00:40:57,119 --> 00:40:59,519 you know, I came to the team to because I was an MVP. 612 00:40:59,679 --> 00:41:01,360 I came to the team is like you know, community manager and you know, 613 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,760 like developer advocate basically is what I was, right. But we literally 614 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:13,320 went open source ten years ago. Crazy year I got married. Yeah, 615 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,519 and and that was like I don't need to do this community management thing anymore 616 00:41:16,519 --> 00:41:20,800 because it was social engineering just changed, you know. We were like zero 617 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,760 distance to the customers now. Yeah, and so when I joined marketing, 618 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:28,119 it made sense. But I remember telling myself when I was younger, because 619 00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:30,840 my sister was in marketing, and I was like, man if I ended 620 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,360 up in marketing, kill me. And I ended up in marketing. So 621 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,000 I was like, what, I also think you've had a very rounded career 622 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:40,239 too, because you've been over there, you've been in IC and now you're 623 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,199 PM. Yeah yeah, Les and so so product management was this last challenge 624 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,079 for me. Like I remember when I joined mycro stoft, I don't think 625 00:41:49,119 --> 00:41:52,199 I could do this a team yeah, and uh, you know, I 626 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,119 mean I'm not a manager like of people. But product management is just a 627 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,559 constant challenge. You know, you have to be on top of what your 628 00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:01,000 competitor are doing. You have to be on top of what your customers are 629 00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:05,119 asking for. You have to be on top of what your engineers are able 630 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,320 to do. You know how you prioritize, you know, like the scheduling 631 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,760 part is it's just but it's fun because I'm so close to the engineering now 632 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,079 and I get to write code every day and you know, it's just I 633 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:21,480 get to test things and and I get to like look at the end to 634 00:42:21,559 --> 00:42:24,639 end. What's funny is you know, I mean Microsoft isn't a cloud company. 635 00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:28,320 They're an AI company now, right, we are, right, and 636 00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:34,079 I'm I'm like on the client right. It's and it feels like it feels 637 00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:39,480 like maybe like we have a little extra like I don't know, startup kind 638 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,320 of attitude to ourselves, you know what I mean, because you know, 639 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:49,159 we're we're kind of like the client is so important to the user experience on 640 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,800 the other end, you know, and so it is. It is part 641 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,880 of like the whole end to end of an application. But we're glad that 642 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,599 you were marketing, yeah, rather than somebody who didn't understand it, right. 643 00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:01,000 And that's the thing I mean, that's that's kind of I brought. 644 00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:06,159 I brought like the technical aspect of it. I learned a lot about storytelling 645 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,000 and marketing. And when you're a product manager, you're just doing storytelling and 646 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:13,079 at kind of like your level, like focused on your focused, yeah, 647 00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:15,159 focused. So so I do a lot of I do. I help I 648 00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:19,280 help the rest of the team do some of that too. So I I 649 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,719 love being on the dot net team and love being around dot net. You 650 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,159 guys know that. I like that forever. So it's like Fox were only 651 00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:29,679 different. Fox Brow taught me how to how to love a community though. 652 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,639 Yeah you know it was an amazing community and an amazing product for its time. 653 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,440 Yeah, certainly. Yeah. And on that note, I guess we'll 654 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,199 call a show. Thank you so much. Hey again, I love you 655 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,880 guys, all right, you too, and we'll talk to you next time 656 00:43:44,239 --> 00:44:08,559 on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net 657 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:14,519 and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production 658 00:44:14,639 --> 00:44:19,280 facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud 659 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,920 online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E 660 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,880 t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile 661 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,159 apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number 662 00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:37,440 one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check 663 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,440 out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code, 664 00:44:42,840 --> 00:45:00,239 see you next time. Got Jamdlevans and this is