You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio
in the UK and around the world. Welcome to the Paranormal Pendel Podcast and
coming to you from the heart of Pendel, which country in the northwest of
England. My name is Craig Bryant, author, the investigator and collector of
stories. To join me as we take a journey into the paranormal, UFO
sightings, cryptozoology and big casts. This is the Paranormal Pendel Podcast. Welcome
to episode thirty nine of Paranormal PANDUL, broadcasting to the Paranormal UK Network at
pa UK radio dot com. So my guests on this episode, and that's
guests as in plural, So I've got two guests on this episode. Returning
guest is Lee Nicholson, who think if I remember rightly, Lee, you
were my second ever guest, yeah, going back quite a few well well
over a year now I think. And David Cayton. David, welcome,
first time guest on the podcast. Yes, very nice to be here.
Great, Thank you God, thank you thanks for coming on. As you're
the new guest, David, would it be possible for you just to sort
of tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your background
and your interests. Yes, okay, Well, obviously some events in Cyprus
whenas in the RAF I was surf for ten years, but I spent two
and a half years of that in Cyprus the Joint Airy Connerssence Intelligence Center Middle
East place called Episcopy not far from Limosol, and I was a photographer and
for a spell we had to have a photographer up on the Tudos Mount Olympus
radar site to photograph the screens because we're tinking around with some then secrets over
the horizon radar and a UFO event took place. It wasn't me up there
at that time. It was a colleague of mine, Barry Porter, who
was now deceased sadly, who witnessed or carry on and took his camera in
the in the raidar room expecting to photograph. To think, anyway, that's
another story in its own married to be married for forty three years. I
think, three daughters, seven grandchildren ranged from three to or two and a
half to twelve. Right I worked for I left the Air Force in nineteen
sixty five. I joined British Air Space was then in Chaddoton and then we
moved to the Woodford Planet. Later on in the Engineering research department in the
Air Force one. In my last post thing, I was lucky enough to
get involved in non destructive testing, which involves using radiography, an ultrasound and
other methods to find cracks and crows and and aircraft structures oponents. So I
did this radiographic course. Was one or two other photographers that were that desperate
because it was a new thing progressing very fast. When I was demolved,
I applied for photographic work but there wasn't a thing available, but they realized
from my CV from the Air Force but this radiography thing, so I was
employed in the laboratory doing X ray work and that progressed and after three years,
I think nineteen seventy thereabouts, our boss decided to leave the company and
form his own private NDT company and because of a certain ministry a CEA approvals
are taken in these practices. The meantime, I was promoted to head of
the NDT, which I did for twenty odd years twenty two years retirement in
nineteen ninety three. And because of my interests from way back in nineteen fifty
eight of the UFO stuff. I approached Quest International and spoke to Tony Dodd,
who was then the director of Research and Investigations, if you wanted an
investigator for the greater Manchester area. I sent him a bit of a CV
thing and he said, oh, yes please, and I was signed up
in no time. So that's that's where your your interest in UFOs stems from?
Then, is it going back to the to the nineteen fifties, Yeah,
fifty eight, it was right. I had minded before that. I
was believed that we couldn't be alone. So sorry, what was the What
was the incident then, David? That sort of set all this off right?
Well, this is August fifty eight, about six o'clock in the morning.
Barry realized some commotion going on the radar room and went in with this
camera under ready, and I found that they had this objects on radar which
had come up from Alexandra in a Cairo direction, heading northwards, roughly speaking,
across the Mead, and he was doing about eight thousand miles an hour,
which is pretty fast for ninety fifty eight, let's face it. Anyway,
it did an abrupt ninety degree turn northwest back more close to the coast
of Cyprus, the west coast of Cyprus. It was also on radar in
Libya a place called l Adam, which we used to have as a base
post the war too, and it was also on radar R f Luka in
Malta right down to the end of the mats, so it must have been
a pretty big object. Anyway, we scrambled two q R A that's quick
reaction Alert hawker hunters spiders from headquarters at Nikosia who dispatched to intercept this object,
which was a thirty eight thousand feet altitude at the time. And then
as the two jets approach, well, it stopped dead, stopped moving in
an instant and when it made a move that turn must have pulled thirty odd
Jesus would think, if not more. And then it jumped immediately to sixty
thousand feet in a flash of a second, and they hunted aircraft couldn't achieve
the altitude back then, but they were sent back to base. Then proceeded
westwards, went across the fourteen miles of ocean towards Turkey, and increased his
speed to eighteen thousand miles an hour gather eighteen thousand miles an hour, and
it went over Turkey to the what's it see well, heading towards Soviet Russia
generally speaking and events your radar. Now, about eight o'clock that morning,
a wind commander which I was quite a rank it drove up the tortuous mountain
road from Nicassia, aligned everyone up, including Barry, and reminded them you
all signed official secrets lads, so you don't mention this to anybody, especially
the media. So I thought, considering that this demo day of pooh pooed
it all and say no defends significance and all that jazz according to Nick Pope
because we didn't know about Nip Pope in nineteen fifty eight, but years later,
I thought, if there was nothing too it, why did he just
pack this wink amander to warn off all the witnesses at the Trudos Radar bet
site, and I presume similarly to the radar people in Malta and Libya would
also be warned off. So that was that. But the day before I'll
just throw this one in. Unbeknown to me at the time, I've only
known more recently because the guy who was retired as a group captain and right
some rent of course lying one of our as a scrubb leader. Then one
of our Avro shackleton's around Cyprus. He was based in Malta Luca and he
done instinct of going around the coast of Cyprus looking for Excipriot gunboats bringing in
arms in for the Yoka terrorists, which was going on at the time.
And then they were flying back to their mead. They picked up they went
to Arkachery picked up the ground crew. So I had sixteen people aboard crammed
in there in the shackleton, which is looked like an upgraded Lancaster Ford.
Hear that sort of thing, four engine prop aircraft and they're just off crete.
Is now I'm getting down time. Anyway, some of the people noticed
there was an object on my left on the port wing with a red light.
You say so, they thought, But some of the aircraft and realize
if it's on the port, they should be looking at a green light on
aircraft wings the starboards green port is red. Anyway, it was following the
aircraft of their speed. Probably only do it, I don't know, two
hundred and one miles and are not much more about twelve thousand feet or something
that wasn't pressurized, so the captain couldn't see it from his patch to see
because of the wing and the engines. So on the top of the shack
there's an observation dome in the middle of the fusal horde which used to be
a gun to it on lancasterdays. And he ordered every man to go up
and climb up into this observation thing, and he wanted everyone to witness it.
And then what he did. Then he dived to shackleton and then pulled
the stick back suddenly, so suddenly lost a lot of speed, and he
managed to get behind the objects short a few seconds, but long enough to
see this was a cylindrical thing with the red light on the nose, which
was about thirty feet long by twelve foot diameter to the estimate. And as
soon as he did that, it jumped back to the same position on its
port wing. So he radioed forward to on the secret NATO frequency to Malta
and they scrambled to Javelins Javelin aircraft nineteen septor Javelins lost the Javelins to come
and catch up with him down the middle of the mead, and as the
javelins approach at higher altar should apparently they could see this object to the office
wing and as they come down to close on aircraft, is shot up vertically
in a flash in a way. Why when they all got back to Luca,
every man was individually interviewed by men in gray suits. I'm told not
to button, let them not mention it. So within four jurs was two
major events. I'll never know whether that's object. It was seen on radar
Luca, but I don't know whether they found it in Cyprus radar. But
anyway, Yeah, lots of those two objects doing peculiar things. Yeah,
I was going to say that the way that they were behaving, certainly the
first one that you described, that's your sort of classic maneuvering, isn't it.
Yes, Yes, whether they sort of stopping on a on a sixpence
and they're turning at forty five degrees and high acceleration beyond many that you know
we have. I said, wait, I'm talking about human beings, not
not the RAF. But yeah, I mean that that is really quite interesting.
I mean, have you heard of those two stories late? I'm conscious
that you've been set in the background, just listening away and that's fine.
Well, of course, yeah, I mean I've heard them from David actually,
but I think I think one of the was documented in the magazine Years
Obama, right, David US magazine Probably I'm Shackleton case maybe, But they're
very impressive. I mean, nowadays they call them up observables, aren't they.
But yes, classic performers characteristics. Yeah, and you mentioned David about
Nick Pop. I'm just wondering whether whether you knew him, whether you'd ever
met him. Then I mention him the question. Conferences are Ryan Leeds.
It was two thousand and one. I think it was the first talking given
on the animal mutralations, all right, and he wasn't happy at all.
We ended up sat sharing a breakfast table in the hotel actually in the morning
before the first day of the conference, and he was all shuffling about.
He was uncomfortable. Obviously, I didn't know how to respond, you know,
with any significant comments about the animal mutilation phenomena. So I can't say
we got on very well. We were polite and all the rest of it.
But yeah, and also it was also a conference giving a speech was
doctor Stephen Greer, right, and he realized what I was going to talk
about and we met up in the hotel lobby when Graham asked me to round
people up for the Many Boss to take us to the conference Vence venue,
and he had a bit of a go at me, right, okay,
very lofty, I know, it's all you know nothing sort of attitude.
And I realized for years we've got on and it's still at it that he
believes all the mutilations have done. Why American military or specialist groups not done
by ET because it doesn't like the ET is to be seen as bad mother
than bad. And considering the number, I mean, Tony Doddie said,
I think it must be thirty at least types of extraterrestrial species, all at
different levels of technology, coming from different places, different sorts of craft.
So so Stephen Career wasn't having that at all. It was put me down
and put the whole subjects of mutilations down because it didn't suit his gender.
Well, that's that's interesting, that that theory that he has, because you
have to wonder what American special forces will be doing up Upper Moor in Toddmdon
in West Yorkshire. Yes, because that's that's how myself and Lea we first
got to know each other. Isn't it like through that that case that happened
now a couple of years ago? I mean, did you have any any
deep dealings with that at all? David and Lee? Has anything come to
light since we last? We'll ask chatting about that or has that one sort
of gone? Had the pleasure of talking to Lee about us and the chap
who stumbled across the calf port. Yeah, Albert Tires took some excellent photographs,
which is it makes a change, don't do it? And then I
had to know of it from what was that lady's name, Haswell, Debbie
Hatchwell. I spoke to her and she put me in touch Lee, so
I got to see the pictures. But you have on file and we deduced
I am confident it's the same farmer who lost his calf. It never made
any inquiries that the calf was never moved, he never reclaimed the carcass.
Some years early, I've been to his farm which was shared with a lady
who lived next door the land, and it had Robert Hols and I went
to view a sheep mature you who had got throat and face injures. Typical
things and eventually I got out of the farmer a confession here or two.
After that event, he had two or three others, but he never despite
his promises, he never let me know. He was obviously very unhappy about
it an autumn, disbelieving that he wanted it to be some natural predator or
something. So he's been in trouble with the DEFRA about health issues on his
farm and learns so it run out to help us to train future cases.
He didn't want people parking around, then, did he not? No?
No, I suppose not. No. I mean I know quite a few
farmers because I live in in a particular rural area around here, and I
do know quite a few farmers, and they can be very secretive about everything,
really, And if death had been poking around, obviously, then then
he wouldn't want sort of any indication that there might, you know, the
might have been any malpractice on his part. Yeah, Yeah, that's it.
I mean, that's one of the reasons we chose. So I really
wrote the whole thing up as an article recently, and that's one of the
reasons we chose to keep his name out of it, because we did identify
the farmer. Yeah, you know, it wasn't immediately around the twenty twenty
period. It was more like twenty eleven, I think, right when when
the charges were brought against him, right, Yeah, but he would still
obviously be quite aware of those one being quite quite wary of people getting involved.
Yeah. I mean, one interesting thing was we were looking for an
ear tag because the ear was missing, and sometimes in these cases the tag
is left behind strangely enough, so we were looking for one. We didn't
find one. But what we did discover is a couple of months after we
first went to the site, was the herd that it was from, which
was up near Guddings Dam, And it was a mixed herd with carved about
the same age, so we could pretty certain. And I did get told
who the farmer was, who was this herd belonged to, And none of
them were tagged actually, so you know, he's sort of skirting the regulations
a little bit, so we didn't want to get him in trouble or anything
like that. You know. So is animal mutilation as one of your favorite
subjects, David, but but one of your it was a pet subject that
would be even worse one that nately one of one of the subjects that you're
interested, then yes. After three years of interviewing people about things seen in
the sky for across international very often, I filed a report for Tony Dodd,
got them usually filled in and all the rest of it. And that's
the end of it. So you either believe that person of what they've witnessed
or you don't and you can't take it forward. That's it. So having
found out about the mutilations, partly from Tony Dodd, but also from Linda
Moulton how in the States, and I met Linda a few times down in
Wiltshire because one of the things I was doing in the past was investigating seriously
crop circles. About twelve years I joined a center crop circle and research,
and of course I was through a friend who used to work are shared space.
He knew any which is down. He introduced me to Plan Andrews gentleman.
I knows rupture. It's okay, all right, come to me.
I have the same problems with my memory, David, don't worry anyway with
him. Were such up the APFU animal pathology. Feel you unit, okay,
Phil, Phil Hail, thank you very much. Memory. He had
lots of personal experiences and abductions for many years. So it was aware of
the animal stuff. And I got talking to and we decided to try and
form a group, and I think it was four or five us for a
while, but the others soon dropped out for various reasons won't bore you with,
but though one of them, it was obviously when I gave that talk
at the QUEST conference in two thousand and one on the stage when I was
I was wrapping up and Gray and Birds was getting a vote of thanks and
resting the audience, he said everyone was eight hundred people there. Eight hundred
said David needs help on this. Anyone willing to help catch up with me
at the conference? You see, well on this one person came forward as
in the audience, and very intelligent bloke down in down house somewhere, and
anyway, we concluded, particularly Phil Hoyle, who was more stute at spotting
these people. He was quite clearly from affiliated in some way with some government
department checking up to see how we were getting on look at this animal stuff,
because it was all hush and popped off and buried and giving the and
that's what they were doing. So and also something happened one day when he
was chasing me for some photographs of some of the bodies, and I rang
him and he answered the phone, which was a land line, and then
while I was on the line, I heard a mobile ring or to the
must have be another way around, so he put me on hold and walked
down the passageway to be other phone. I could hear him say things like
yes, he's here right now, it's me. So whoever was orchestrating him
or in charge of him doing what he was doing, were anxious to get
hold of any images I could provide pass them on to him without to me
it was a clue what he was up to, so we sort of dropped
him out. It just ended up in the end with a Phil Hoyle and
but Holtz who came with me to one or two events locations to try and
retrieve a carcass or whatever. All The main thing is Phil devised the name
and a more pathology feel, you know, because using the word pathology,
because now that was for pathologies. Obviously. I was lucky enough to meet
a professor of pathology who was criminal pathology from Manchester UNI on a BBC Radio
breakfast program interview chat which I got Graham Bursl got me to go because he
couldn't make it, and I'm went like seven miles eight miles from Manchester the
studios. And it was the morning after that Bloody Ray Santilly had released his
so called alien Autopsy, And so the BBC asked this professor and a colleague
to view the program the night before and come and make comments about what you
thought of the prestigures that the film showed. Now we got around the table
with the microphones. It's just two lady presenters, so we didn't know each
other from Adam, and they did a bit of an introduction thing. There
was a weather forecast and something or other, and previously has spoken to the
program producer and making it quite clear to him as a UPO upologists working for
quests, quests as a whole, and a lot of work that Tony Dodd
and Graham had done to disprove raised Antelli's claimed that this was a real military
black and white movie film or real Ailien having an autopsy. But he failed,
well, accidental or deliberate, he didn't inform that to the two lady
presenters, who thought I was going to say, Ureka, we've got the
smoking gun. This is what we've been mading for. And I went then
enter a cross swords with Professor Fremont. So while they were having their weather
forecasts and the mics were off, asked a bit of paper across to say
who he was, and I sent a bit back saying, you know I
was. You see, So the whole program in terms of the discussion fell
a bit flat because there was no raised voices or arguments, which it was
about the illinutopsy film. Yeah, which of course has been proved to be
an absolute or to complete hawks. Yes, believe the people that made the
dummy have come forward since somethen Thet'm speaking to Philip Mantle about it a while
ago. At one time he was pushing it. Mantle yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, very early, so he didn't have to he was forced
into autun us flit. Mantle, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So that
event just interrupting me. Sorry. As we were going out, I said
Tony Fremont, you know, if I got some animal carcases of tissue,
would you prepare to help me? And he said, oh, yes,
certainly. Well after that we raised a meeting at my house. Tony Dodd
came. He had to stop port and Tony Fromont Fremont came to join us.
And Tony brought quite a few images, lots of Lindam all the house
stuff which we were passing around, and he wasn't making comments. And what
really got Professor Fremont going was Tony put his hand in his pocket brought out
the brown envelope with three or four pictures of that poor man in Brazil from
nineteen eighty eight who had all these mutilations. You remember him that I know
in case now that nineteen right, I'm not familiar with that that story,
to be honest, what what mutilation? No, I haven't heard it.
Sort of briefly going to what that was about. Yes, right, So
that Tony Fremont is Dando was really up and he looked at very closely a
long time. What these photographs that Tony dad produced? And he said,
and I had a tape recording at the time with his permission, he said,
like talking to himself or talking for his profession. He said, looking
at the injuries, I don't see how we could do this. That was
a very telling remark. He also said, because of some of the bluish
stains around some of the holes in his thigh, in his arms, and
he said, that's a sign that the poor guy was alive at the time.
These some of these energies were done right. So it was like bleeding
into the tissue, he said, because his heart was pumping, and it
leaves this bluish staying under the skin. Were in showing through the skin.
So that's that's remarks she made. So when people say, oh, it's
done by the military or wild animals and or I said, absolute rubbish.
So and the information we've gathered since I have I've spent twenty over twenty years
looking at the animal mutilation stuffs because it was very time consuming, traveling,
putting adverts in the farming press to get information back from farmers, which is
very difficult. There's a majority of them because we're only looking at a tip
of an iceberg. Because the majority of farmers fine one they might be baffled
thinking I've lost a sheep or lamb on whatever. They only get foxes to
take them down again. So it's part of farming life to lose amount of
stock through one reason or the other. And they were just bury it or
sent it to the drag hunt. And that was the end of that.
So some farmers would have been on to a farm, and I've asked.
I can tell why pretty sure by their body language and things that they've had
something they know about it, but they wouldn't admit to me in a certain
day or time scale they had a lamber or sheep or a coutever found with
these sort of injuries, because I used to take photographs to show them.
And I put an advert in the farming press, which was agreed by Tony
Freemant without mentioning his name, because unfortunately eventually got warned off tell you about
that little bit if you want, so, I sort of I decided that
that was got quite a good results. Actually, the adverts co three hundred
pounds in the Farmers Weekly for one week in the classified section undergrounds for two
column widths, and the first one I did. Tim Good kindly paid the
three hundred quid for that. In fading, I got him a vat specific
get back, which I did. Richard D. Hall, who I've worked
with rich planet a few times, he paid for one for the wasn't Farmers
Weekly as Farmers Guardian. The Farmer's Guardian was a more animal orientated farming magazine
and the Farmers Weekly, and then drain burstl Bess his Heart paid for another
advert in the Farmer's Guardian, and they all pursues some results, and I
missed some animals by a week, some several weeks, summer months and some
years. So the farmers recognized by by description what we're looking for. I
didn't want them to waste time going for arriving seventury of miles or more to
find it was just normal predation and that seem to work. But it was
costly thing to do each time, but it got me some results. So
what are your theories then, David, about what's causing these mutilations? I
mean, is it is it extraterrestrial or is there some predation by well,
let's you know, big cats, that that sort of thing. What's what's
your take on it? Without a shadow of doubt, it's it is.
It's very highly advanced procedures. They're taking larger organs through small holes in the
bow. How they do that isn't the mystery? With no blood, there's
no blood let around the carcass, there's no blood on the on the carcass,
apart from a bit of when the animals being tipped over. Sometimes residual
blood seeps out of the wound or the mouth. And because of the EMO,
it's pretty much the same. There's a pattern from animos anal and all
species are affected worldwide. It's not just in America as people that like to
thought or think at one time, or just wherever in Britain. It's all
around the world. The and the EMO is the same. So so much
for Stephen Greer saying all the American military are doing it to scare you off,
to me, to make a bad light. The eats and a bad
light. And there these lovely extraterrestrials. We must communicate with them and all
their meetings you have as getting people to to try and make contact and all
that jazz. Yeah, so I'm no doubt there can't be anything else now
because I think we've exhausted all the other possible things. And as for mutilation
by another wild animal, I mean when the animal predates on something, it
does it to eat and the carcass will be a mess, teeth and claw
marks, tissue over the place, wool from a sheep scattered about, skin
and a lot of blood around too. So it's no way are these as
twenty three months said highly advanced medical procedures and not done by mister Fox or
a dog, because dogs do attack sheep and lambs particularly, So that's my
take on it. So I mean that brings us quite sort of nicely really
to one of the questions I wanted to ask, which is about the recent
disclosure evidence. So obviously, you know, people, different people within this
this particular sphere have different different thoughts on the information that has been that has
been brought out in these these hearings of over in America. I mean,
late, let's let's start. I'll start with you, because again I'm conscious,
I'm conscious you've been sat there very patiently. Lead is more into this
and not at it most carefully than me, Yeah, or not David Gruc's
announcements or ust of it. Yeah, yeah, So what's your thoughts on
it? Like, well, yeah, I mean it's complicated, isn't.
I think that's part of the problem. I've had to learn quite a bit
of American politics, you know, just just to understand what's going on.
But you know, if if you'd take a step back what was discovered years
ago is that I don't know if you'd know about the story of Thomas Wilson,
Admiral Wilson, and he was involved in a meeting with several people,
including doctor Greer actually, but that was when he was doing some decent work
and Edgar Mitchell, the former astronaut, and the upshot of the meeting was
they informed him about these particular projects that were going on involving crash recoveries of
UFOs and reverse engineering, and they gave him enough information so he could go
and check basically, and so he did, and a document leaked out a
few years ago which was a meeting between this guy and another person and discussing
what he learned basically, And what he learned was that, I mean,
this guy was his next job was going to be ahead of the Defense Intelligence
Agency at that time, so it was a very high ranking and what he
learned was he was not allowed access and that actually more most of the government
didn't have access. And what was happening was the federal government that the intelligence
agencies and the military agencies were keeping its secret from the congressional side of government,
and so the people who should have been informed weren't being So this is
exactly what Grush discovered years later when he were working for the task Force,
you know, So for people that don't know David Grish, he was with
the Air Force, he was with the National Geospatial Agency, and he was
with the National Reconnaissance Office and he got tasked I think it was twenty nineteen
to join the UFP Task Force, which had been mandated by Congress at that
time. And part of his job was given was to look for any projects
that might be duplicating the work essentially, and that's where they've discovered them.
You know, they actually knew where to look because of things that happened previously.
And Grush succeeded in interviewing forty witnesses I think is the figure that's going
around now, people who worked inside these projects, people who have you know,
knocked on cross UFOs, seen the bodies and what have you. Right,
And he was, you know, a little bit concerned and a little
bit disturbed, if you will. And so as a result of his investigation
official investigation for the UFP Task Force, he experienced reprisals from the government I
think. I think he went into work one day and his security clearance had
been gone. So his reaction to that was to go to it's called it's
the ICIG, so it's the Intelligence Community Inspector General's Office and file an official
complaint. And the complaint you filed was about these programs and the fact that
they were being ruin without congressional oversight. So you know, in America,
the Gang there's eight members of Congress in the Senate who had head the heads
of various committees. They call them the Gang of Eight. And they should
have access to all classified projects or these special access programs programs. Yeah,
they should have access, but they don't. They didn't, and this is
what they discoveredly see, so this is what he can show, right.
Sorry? Would would Project blue Book be one of those time? No?
No, that was very much a public relations exercise essentially, it wasn't It
wasn't classified. The special access programs are the real deep black stuff. You
know, nobody talks about it, and you know, usually aircraft developmental weapons
development. Or do you do you think that the president would have been kept
out of the loop as well then, or whichever president you know, the
number of presidents that have been over the years, do you think all of
them have been kept in the dark about this as well? The information is
that yes, some of them may have received limited briefings about, you know,
other aspects of the programs, like maybe sightings or something. One of
the rumors is that Bush the first Bush, he probably did get a brief
in because of his position. He was deeply in the intelligence community anyway.
So but yeah, the rumors are that he was probably the last one.
Yeah. I mean the reason that I asked and I had a discussion with
with some other guests a few weeks ago about this is obviously, you know,
there's certain more recent presidents find it very difficult to keep the mouth shut
or have found it very difficult to keep the mouth shutting something something I think
we all know I'm referring, so something like this, if if because you
know, some of the rumors have been that presidents one of the first things
that they briefed on when they become presidents of the United States is extraterrestrial contact.
Now, if that that was the case, there will will have been
certain presidents or or president singular who you know, found it quite difficult not
to open the mouth and say the wrong things at the wrong time. So
it would just seem that this information that's coming out was actually you know,
beyond even that of the Office of Presidents. Yeah, no, that really
is the implication. Yeah, strongly, And that's kind of the concern as
well. You know, lack of oversight is was the issue, you know,
Yeah, Trump, I don't. I don't think Trump was briefed in
I agree if he was. If he was, he was, he probably
went in one ear and out the other. He was probably busy doing something
else. Well, I mean, he's referenced it a few times, and
he's referenced Roswell as well. Yeah, but when you listen to his the
content of what he refers to, I think it's clearly he's had a briefing
from the USP Task Force because he's talking about the pilot sightings and things like
that. Yeah, so that he hasn't had a briefing by these special access
programs as far as I can tell, you know, Yeah, so go
on the special access program Sorry I interrupted you. No, that's all right.
So, so Grush found these programs, and that's what would say that
hadn't we and then he went to the Inspector General's office and lodge this complaint,
which they formerly have to investigate. That's what they do. They're essentially
the police of the intelligence community, and what they did is that they essentially
passed past him and his witnesses. Because he brought witnesses with him, he
wasn't the only one that testified, so that this office is probably in possession
of the evidence we're all looking for at the moment, but it's classified,
so you know, not the hardware, but there are rumors to be documents
and pictures among in all this, not to mention the testimony from multiple insiders,
you know, who are clearly in the positions they claim to be.
You know, I've said this before. Bubblers Are he had some interesting information
and he may or may not have been to as ay fifty honest for you
know. The reason we don't know for sure is because bubbles Are couldn't even
presue prove his educational background, you know, and so that leaves a real
big question mark there, whereas Gross is absolutely who he says he was,
you know, and not only that his bosses have backed him up as well,
from the task Force. You know, there's quite a few people back
to him up. Yeah, go on, David, Yeah, I was
just thinking that all the good stuff there leave, but I don't think I
still don't think they'll go for a full disclosure. I think they'll still try
and keep it under wraps as much as possible, because I think there's too
many ramifications if they made an announcements that we're definitely not alone and that we're
being attacked in raised ways by these unfriendly ones. And because his friendly ones
as well do good things to abductees. I know a few personally who've benefited
from their abduction experience. Give us an example of that, da there's bad
ones. Example of the good experiences. Yeah, yeah, I mean you
don't have to mention any names, just well improved attributes and skills like art
things, art photography, singing that the family. One case of family were
abducted off the M five some years ago and the two daughters suddenly Charlotte school
one particularly she didn't didn't want to do with her because she was right at
the top classic because I ever think of to put her intelligence is improved and
their attributes and as skills. Some have had medical procedures fixed or improved upon,
you know, physical injuries miraculously fixed in a way just like Jesus Christ
used to do. Is healing because Jesus Christ and my belief was high et
and Mary was abducted and implanted with Jesus, and he was sent here to
try and sort us out and fail these stupid human beings with the Romans and
what I was going on at the time, and he failed and they ended
up puttinghim on the cross and killing him. So there's clues. Robert Holes
is very much of Fay with things in the Old Testament, and there's plentive
clues in the Old Testament of the Bible pointing to external involvement with human beings
over the millennaia. And I think the church leaders have altered they've written the
Bible basically and hidden things and twisted things around and want to great impression of
the power of the church, particularly their own Catholics. So if the full
disclosure came out, it was send all the mainstream religions in a flat spin,
particularly the Catholics. In my belief. Yeah, no, absolutely,
I agree that. So that's one of the reasons why I don't think we'll
ever get it. There's too much pressure on the United States government and in
case what they're trying to prove, and so there's so much evidence out there.
It's almost a joke in my opinion of them trying to say about certain
information they have stacked up in the Pentagon or wherever when they think of every
Air Force p actually around the world have had interactions and intercepts with crafts,
you know, scrambles like that Cyprus event I've mentioned, so, I mean,
and what they're doing to the animals and unfortunately human beings. And I've
quite a few human cases now in my file pictures and the m again is
very similar to Ebo on certain regions of the animals. So but you know,
Equing not three months, Professor three months comments about that poor Brazilian man
don't see how we could do this, And he's talking about the medical profession
and his knowledge and profession as a pathologist at deals with murder cases and this
sort of thing. Manchester Police. I find it amusing in a way,
in a sad way, all this Who are and the media making hey about
what the Americans are releasing or not releasing when there's so much information already had
there out there. Organizations like our irmod our, ministry, defense and the
Air Force head people have enough information to hand like these Cyprus events just two
within four to eight hours in nineteen fifty eight and the reactions to the MD
when that happened to the people who witnessed it. To me, what more
do you need? You know, it just it's just ridiculous. Yeah,
well, I get a bit frustrated all this carry on, the media make
about people like David Groush being a whistleblower and all of us of it.
But it doesn't I'm hoping wrong, it doesn't just fizzle out, no inn
others of the Muslim Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting what you're saying
that there is There's there's an awful lot of information out there now. I
mean, obviously in the in the era that we're in now of being able
to access any amount of of daterin information online, and obviously, you know,
people like ourselves talking about these things now, any number of people out
there who have had experiences. I mean, I was talking to my last
podcast last a couple of weeks ago, was about Calvin Parker, who sadly
obviously you know, passed away recently. But I was talking about, you
know, his particular case. Again, I mean, it's this a very
famous case, but you know, there are any number of people who have
had similar experiences over the years, and so I agree. I think it's
I think it's almost amusing that, you know, the the American authorities in
particular sort of trying to drip I think they are trying to drip feed information
out to people. But I also think you're right, David, and that
there are you know, interested parties, vested interests, you know, whether
it be religious or industrial or political, who were trying to stop the information
coming out. Because you're quite right, it would throw the whole of society
and to complete panic and chaos. If somebody came on the news now and
said, actually, this alien sat next to me is such and such a
body from such such a planet and they've been coming here for years and we're
not alone and blah blah blast. So so yeah, I mean it'll be
interesting to see where where they go with it. Yeah, yeah, well
certainly. I mean it's certainly interesting as well. I think about what other
governments, No, because obviously it's not it can't just be can't just be
the American government. I mean, the American government likes to think that,
you know, America is the center of the world and everything else all the
shots. Yeah, exactly. They call all the shots when you top Doug,
Well, exactly, but there's obviously, you know, an apologies to
so if anybody is listening to this podcast from the from the States, but
obviously, you know, like like you said, David, our own military
and obviously military of other countries as well will have had their own experiences.
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, And I mean it's actually part of
the testament ites part of the information that's coming out is that the Five Eyes
Allies are involved in this. It's not just America, and I'm sure they
do take the lead. But you know, just to address David's point really
about if this is going to come to anything, we're actually at a really
at a crux point right now because this has already come to something, and
that is that there's a new legislation been drafted, sixty four pages of language,
which will become law if it gets past it's been debated right now,
and if it gets past the House, then it will go to the President.
It's called the National Defense Authorization Act, and this act allows Congress and
the Senate to import new laws essentially on the intelligence communities and the military,
and it comes along with the budget, so they have to follow the laws,
you know, if they have to comply with the new legislation to get
the budget. Although they're not instant, you know, it does take a
little bit of time. So what's in place right now is there's sixty four
pages of legislation and it's called the twenty twenty four Disclosure Act, and if
you read through it, it's basically compels any organization, even private organizations in
the States, to release and reveal to the congressional side of government that information,
including allowing it will be our row will get the job essentially to go
and audit it as well. And it goes much deeper than that. They
have to give up every agency has to give up every single document. There's
going to be the creation of a board appointed by the President, I think
the nine member board, and they will decide which, you know what information.
It's all presumed to be declassifiable, but obviously they do come up with
excuses not too you know, and so I if this come goes through,
then we might be in with a good chance of discovering that. Yeah,
you know, these intelligence agencies have their hands on hardware, you know,
so it's all right. I actually sightings and I always will but it's important
for me to know if somebody's got the hard evidence there of a craft,
because that does that craft match with the witness reports we get in from the
civilians? And I'm sure it does. You know, is it a disc?
Is it a tik tak or a triangle? You know? Do the
bodies look like the ones that are showing up in people's bedrooms. I'm pretty
sure they do, do you know what I mean? And we may also
learn us with it. It's like some of the information that's leaking out,
which isn't confirmed, suggest that these and we've heard this all along, really
a lot of these beings are manufactured. This seemed to be manufactured, you
know, this seemed to be all the same. And some of the most
recent information is that they may be manufactured from materials found on Earth, so
from animals and human parts. I don't mean cobbled together, I mean at
the cellular level. Yeah. And you know, if you've ever heard of
the von Neuman probe concept, no, so it's it's it was proposed by
von Neuman, and the idea is that it's a way to carry out space
travel. Is that a civilization instead of sending people out into space. They
send a probe which is as now we'd we'd call it AI, and that
probe is fitted with the ability to find a destination of interest, set up
base, start harvesting resources locally, and manufacturing the extra probes and you know,
whatever it needs essentially. So if something like that had happened here thousands
of years ago, set up under the sea or under the under the Earth,
or out in the Solar system, you know, that might explain a
lot of what we're seeing, including the animal mutilations, and including the fact
that these beings are non human but not sarily extraterrestrial because there may be being
manufactured locally, you know. Yeah, and that could explain religion, just
just going back to what you were saying before, David about the Catholic Church,
going back to looking at the Bible and similar teaching, similar writings from
other religions, even going back to the Egyptians, Babylonians, you know that
those those sort of religions that could that could be an explanation of that.
Yeah. Of course cargo cult, isn't it you know? So, yeah,
very possible. Just mentioning religion from an't it a week ago? Had
a knock on the front door. It was two nice middle aged ladies who
turned out to be and I never asked the question whether they were Jehovah's witnesses.
I think they possibly were something similar to that. Yeah, and they
started off. I say, we're not from the government. What do you
think of the government? And I made some joke like the Irish commentator said,
to be sure, the trouble with general elections is the government always gets
in, which they thought using and the next thing she said, and what
do you think about that? The share the Bible or right? She said?
Anyway, she she came clear what they were really about. There were
Bible bashes, and they went away, probably a bit shocked, a bit
being used, and a bit horrified when I pointed out what my beliefs were
and what I'm into. So they scuttled off down the drive for the tails
between the legs. But I mean that's they were typical as the sort of
people who follow whether it's Jaws or latter days say so whatever, Yeah,
any religion will be the same. I know I have one system of elders,
particularly who's quite religious and she's a big church goer. Things in the
choir pointing and what have you. And she's certainly not happy, happy at
all what I'm doing, never has been, and she she doesn't allow me
to talk about it when she's here or I'm there a flat Some people take
take the religious writings literally, aren't they. Yeah, so yes, they're
completely sold in the churches doctrine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,
when when you look back at when some of these texts were written,
it is, you know, it is highly feasible. But a lot of
these stories that, let's say, for instance, are in the Old Testament,
and I'm sure that there are writings and teaching in other forms of religious
books as well, were because of the time when these events were supposed to
have happened, and the time when these events were recorded in these religious books,
that our ancestors didn't understand what they were seeing in the same way that
we would understand it today. So you know, so in other words,
you know, if if if we did see an alien, if an alien,
an extraterrestrial, did suddenly appear in front of you, you will probably
now we will probably think, oh, that's an extraterrestrial. Two thousand years
ago, one of our ancestors might think that's a god. Oh absolutely,
Yeah. Yeah, and so that's that's obviously the difference. The thing which
is, she's really interesting, and I think that's it's a whole massive subject
on its own. Isn't it really about about religious teachings? Yeah? Yeah,
I first retained uncomfortable with it when I was eleven. Issue I was
tending confirmation classes in our church and even more Saint Paul's church. It was
and I thought, I felt, that's age uncomfortable. But about this guy
telling me he's a load of fairy tales Bible events. Yeah, the ones
would would like to hear this, But it was all leaning up to you
being ready, being ready for confirmation. Yeah, class, I didn't like
it that I'm misgiving us about it then, yeah, yeah. And I
mean, you know, we all have our we all have our views,
don't when we all have our religious views? And I'm sure that there are
a lot of people who have very strong religious views and they firmly believe in
their beliefs in the same way that we believe in ours. So you know,
I would never criticize anybody for having a belief system which is different to
mine. It's just that I believe that you know those belief systems, the
genesis of those that's a joke. That's not a joke. Actually, the
how those reliefs, those religious beliefs and writings and teachings started. I believe
that they actually came from a different place than somebody who literally believes everything that's
that is written in in their particular religious books or and I'm just very conscious
of not you know, upsetting people, let's say, who would have a
different religious belief but can recommend it's a ploy to get j who was off
your doorstep and returned it was returned. You sh any interest or parallels with
Bible teachings that they like to talk? What does it think about the player
that was it? She said that at one point. Yea, so well,
very interesting, take it, leave it. Yeah, it's very interesting.
Late are you what what are you working on at the minute then,
because it's because it's been a while since with spoke, I've been keeping up
with your blog. What's what sort of stuff are you looking at at the
minute? Well, not a lot a minute, to be honest. I've
I've been obviously keep at it, and I keep getting reports, some more
interest than others, But I haven't got anything right now, I've got several
articles half written and free quarters written. So yeah, I mean one one
article I've almos got written is an interesting case and it's one of those that
for me, at least frustratingly, I just don't have the answer to whether
it's a conventional object or an unconventional object. But this, this video was
filmed on V Day barn Olswick, above barn Olswick. It's been on YouTube.
It was twenty twenty. I've actually it was May, so it was
not far before the you know, a couple of months before the Tommin and
Calf case and not far away. And if you look at the video,
it looks really impressive. It looks like you've got a silver orbe flying around
in its changing direction and it's you know, flying all over the place.
And the witnesses are really impressed. And what makes it so interesting to me
has won it occurred Overballic. But two, I've actually got a second witness
with a second video of the same event. So it was about nine o'clock.
Both of these people were filming it because because it was V Day,
they you know, it was during towards the end of lockdown. Everybody was
out having the garden parties and so it's really interesting video. But frustratingly,
I've shared it with an image analysts and they're all of the opinion that they
can't rule out a quad cop to drone right. And although at first that
seems like a bit of a crappy explanation, when you're really look into it,
you can't really out. And the reasons are this is because in May
about nine o'clock, the sun is very low, and I've done some tests
where you send up drones and things and you do get a bright reflection off
it, you know, so we can't rule out this. This probably is
a reflection you're looking at rather than a self illuminating object. Where we was
just sighted over. It was over bon Holswit where I live. Yeah,
and I actually I got in touch with the local police and they confirmed me
that it wasn't them, So I can rule out that it's a police drawne.
I've never been able to track down I've drawn pilot or anything or any
footage, and it's it's very erratic flight, so I would suggest that anyone
that was piloting it wasn't filming really, And the other interesting factories that I
think if it was a drone, they would have had to have had the
first person view helmet on because it departed from the center of town right down
to the low end of town, which is quite a distance, and there's
no way the pilot could have had eyes on it essentially the whole time.
Yeah, you know, so there are some interesting elements to it. I
can't rule out that it wasn't, you know, an unknown if you will
as well. And you know, for me, the history of sightings in
this town alone, because I've got a lot, at least thirty going back
to you know, the sixties. You know that that keeps my interest open.
So that that's the case, that it's open essentially, and I will
publish this article eventually. Yeah, but if anything, it highlights the difficulties
sometimes of trying to draw a firm conclusion, you know, without enough information.
Yeah, of course, Yeah, it's very difficult, isn't it.
So what's your what's your blog address? So I post my articles on Medium,
So it's anomalous dash I at medium dot com and if you put if
you put that in there, I've got about ten or eleven articles on there.
I think maybe more. Yeah, I mean one of the interesting ones
that I read recently, and this is probably going back a while now actually
is the was it was it over Coln the portal, the the elderly couple
that you. Yeah, that now, that was really quite strange to me.
Yeah, it's it's a brilliant report, that one. Yeah, I
just want to go through it. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
if you're okay too, Yeah. Yeah, So it was I think it
was twenty second of February. It was twenty twenty one, and it was
in Corn. Yeah. The witness was a gentleman called Ian Gibbons, and
he was sitting watching TV I think, but he had his window open.
He was he's likes to watch the stars and things. He's got quite a
decent view over the hills where he lives. And he said that he noticed
first of all, this distortion in the sky, which is a really unusual
aspect of it and a really trading part. And as he watched this distortion
sort of seemed to expand, if you will, get bigger, and then
orange object for better you know, for lack of a better term, and
merged out of it is the way he described it. And he described it
as oval shaped more like an oblong, if you will, or an oval,
and into his eye this object was just hovering. Distortion faded behind it,
and this object, in his mind rotated towards him to become a perfect
circle. So you've got in almost a gimball type object here, if people
familiar with that gimbal footage. And then as he as he carried on watching,
he shouted his wife to come and have a look, and he went
to get a pair of binoculars, and while she was looking at it,
she described and if anybody wants to read the articles on that website, there's
interviews with him as well, a set of red lights equally space going all
the way around this sphere. Well, this circle of orange light is how
he described it. And he came back and he got his binoculars on it,
and he's done sketches and things for us. And then it shot up
as he as he says, at forty five degrees or thereabouts, and hovered
again, and then from his perspective, it appeared, he said, it
looked quite a bit faint and a bit redder as it was higher, but
he could still see it quite clearly. And then it appeared to rotate again
whereupon it looked like a disc or as he said, a flying saucer.
And then and then from a standstill it set off twice as fast as a
plane, he said, but accelerating as it went towards Skipton. A little
interesting aside there is that that the more there between Skippton and Coln is Carlton
Moore, which is the more that Philip Mantle talks about quite a lot,
because the Graham Bird still, Tony Dodd and the Yorkshire U four guys in
the eighties they went as far as to set a caravan up there. We
were getting so many reports, you know. So, yeah, wasn't Gary
Hesseltine police officer up there up in that area as well at one one stage,
Yeah, based up about Carlton More quite a bit, all I haven't
I haven't stopped some more interviewed man relief. It's Alton Moore as we're Chinnis
Order and two other officers are their encounter. Yes, in nineteen seventy something,
it is. Yeah, so this is the more. It's it's sort
of it's my view, if you will, from from the town of bun
Olswick. So it's it's no surprise we get the reports here. Why you
know this is an active area, but it is. And of course Pendel
Hill's class, isn't it as well? To both of us the main word
one side of Pendel Hill and I'm on the other. Yeah. And of
course we you know, we've we've both come across various reports over the years
of objects either on this side of Pendel Hill or on your side of Pendel
Hill. Yeah, and you know there are there are theories that that it
could be, you know, the geology of the area that's bringing some of
these objects, and we don't know, but I mean it it's certainly the
whole area, isn't it. Really it's it's it's quite a hotbed of of
UP and UFO activity and without a doubt. Yeah, I mean I sort
of took a leaf out of posts in Clare's book and I thought, right,
I'll focus on where I am and I'll reach out about thirty miles and
then any reports I get, I can easily go and visit intoview the witnesses
and visit the locations and all that. Yeah. It makes it very practical,
and then you can map that particular area, So I mean I can
go as far as Ilkley in one direction, and as far as sort of
bolting not quite bolting me, but I sort of draw out because mit the
Claren's all that way, if you will, but I don't. I wonder,
you know, we know Pole's in a hot spot, and this is
a hot spot, and the various other hot spots. You know, I
do suspect that is the case, but you've got to wonder if it's a
reporting bias as well, because people are active there, you know. Yeah,
that's true. Yeah, that's true. That if you've got somebody such
as yourself, for or such as Paul who into I'll be interviewing next week
about about his his documentary that's just put out. It's very good. I
enjoyed it. Yeah, me too, brilliant. Yeah. I mean,
you know, if if you've got an area where you've got very active guides
such as such as yourself, like and and and like Paul for instance,
then it can seem as if and Mick down in you know, around Bolton
and so on, it can seem seem like they are hot spots, whereas
in fact there's probably other areas as well in between where things have been seen.
It's just that that you're not you're not finding out about them because you're
not you're not spreading your net out as wide as as you possibly could,
because you want to concentrate quite rightly on on on a specific area. Absolutely,
yeah. And so other hope is that you know, other people can
fill in the Black Banks and the other other locations, and if we could
do that all across the world, I think it could could prove fairly interesting,
you know, absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, that's brilliant. So yeah,
well, I mean we've we've covered an awful lot of stuff there.
And as I said at the beginning before before we started chatting, we do
tend to go off with a bit of a tangent at points, or I
do like I do like my guests to go off at tangents. Is Is
there any contact details for you, David, in case anybody wants to get
in contact with you or report anything to you. Yeah, I could give
you an email address and the phone and one well, an email address if
we'll be fine if people want to contact you. Yeah, it's David A.
Caydon. That's c A. Y G O. N. Yeah at
hotmail dot com. Okay, So if if anybody's got any any interesting cases,
any mutilation cases or anything like that, they can they can drop your
line. Does that'd be good? Yeah? Yeah, and late people can
contact you through well sorry on Facebook. Yeah, UFOs over Pendule is a
page I have on there, so people contact me through there, or I
do have an email which is Lee dot or m Oscar Mike is at hotmail.
It's a dot coort at UK that one though, Okay, no problem.
Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you both. Thank you both
for coming on. As I said, we've we've covered a lot of subjects
and I'm sure will we'll be able to have more discussions in the future or
some lights to have you both back. And in fact, David, I'd
like to talk to you about crop circles at some point, if that's okay.
I'm just I'm just conscious that we've gone quite quite a long time on
this particular podcast. So if you've got a quick minute, I'll tell you
a very quick short crop crop circle story if you're interested, Yeah, sure,
gone then yet before we sign off, So I mean, I guess
might have to refer back to my previous interview where we talked about the Forward
family. Yeah, businesses in bonn Halswick during that period of time, and
there was actually a crop circle in barn Halswick, just on the outskirts of
town. There was a corn field at the time, and I heard about
this circle, so I went down to investigate. Mel didn't tell me about
it. I don't think he even knew about it, to be honest with
you, but it was probably a couple of years into his experiences. So
things have been in the paper, if you will. Yeah. So anyway,
we got there and it was a union formation, you know, the
classic black and white symbol. So you know, the best I could do
at that time was get up a tree and have a look, try and
get a picture and stuff, which I did. But in order to investigate,
what I thought is, well, how are you going to fake a
crop circle? If you're going to fake one, you're going to use a
compass essentially, aren't you. So so I thought, well, I'll look
in the center of the hall and I'll see if I can fight in the
circle and see if I can find a hole. And sure enough I did,
and I found like a steakhole. You know, if you're sharpen a
steak, what's the four sides? It was. He was quite deep in
the center, and I thought, well, that's you know, interesting,
could be a coincidence. So let me go, what would I do next
to create the small circle? You're gonna have to put one in there,
right, So I went and check out and they were one there as well.
So you know, I'm not speaking for all crop circles, but I'm
pretty sure a lot of more art pieces, but that one certainly was was
man made. And how ironic that it was made in a location that's so
active, you know what I mean, and somebody like me was like in
the midst of investigating a really interesting case, you know, comes across it
and actually manages to dink it. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean,
the crop circles are a whole different subject for discussion, aren't they.
As I say, it's one that I'd like to talk about with you guys
at some point in the future, if that's okay. Well, it's been
a pleasure having you both, and thanks for giving up your time. It's
been a fascinating sort of hour and fifteen minutes. I think we've been on
now almost now in twenty minutes. Really great subjects, really interesting stuff.
Yeah, thanks very much. Guys and hopefully I'll speak to you both soon.
Okay, thank you, Greg, No, thank you. You can
visit my website at www dot Craig Bryant dot co dot uk. Paranormal Pendule
will return and remember to keep watching the shadows and