1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,799 What's up, y'all is Drew Sky and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:08,080 produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewsky. Learn the 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,759 backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,199 a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time? Or no? 5 00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:16,760 Was the Raptors even started around the topic? Come on, bro, I 6 00:00:16,879 --> 00:00:21,359 had that tell you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and any 7 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:23,960 more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,039 Drewsky on Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. 9 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:36,640 Hey, this is Megan Rapino and I'm super We've decided to turn our crazy 10 00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:42,159 ig live show into a podcast for your listening pleasure. Enjoy the show A 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,039 touch More. New episodes of A Touch More drop Tuesday only on the Blue 12 00:00:48,039 --> 00:00:52,520 Wire Podcast Network. Be sure to subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple, 13 00:00:52,679 --> 00:01:11,799 or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Hey, Howdy, Hey Hardwoo 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Knox listeners, I am Danza Valley coming at you with Adam Frommel, the 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,799 founder and editor in chief of NBA math as well as an editor for Bleacher 16 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:23,840 Report. The squeaking you hear in the background, as ever, is a 17 00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:27,400 puppy. I have Wade today named after Deadpool for anyone who cares. We 18 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:33,680 are carrying on with our decade ranking series. We're getting into the top ten 19 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:44,120 players for the Indiana Pacers since the two ten eleventh season as we carry on, 20 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,719 before we carry on, excuse me, I'm losing my train of thought 21 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:48,879 here. I'm gonna leave this in. I thought about just canceling this, 22 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,920 but I think I'm just gonna leave it in. I just want to quickly 23 00:01:51,959 --> 00:01:56,079 remind everyone please continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us on iTunes if 24 00:01:56,079 --> 00:01:59,400 this is your first time listening because you're choppering in for a single team pod. 25 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,599 We really do a great job here of blending stats and personality and anecdotal 26 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,920 evidence. That is my totally biased opinion. There's also puppies playing with Chimmy 27 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,080 Chonga squeaking toys in the background. Where else are you going to get that 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,080 at another podcast? So please follow us on YouTube, Twitter, subscribe, 29 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:19,360 rate, and review to us wherever you're consuming your podcast beat iTunes, Spotify, 30 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,879 Stitcher, Google Play, all those great places before we hop into though, 31 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,759 into these Indiana Pacers rankings, though, Adam, we got to ask, 32 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,240 how the hell are you doing? Doing pretty well? I'm very pleased 33 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,719 that you're dog named Wade after Deadpool has a Chimmy Chonga squeaky toy that's very 34 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:38,240 on brand. Thoor has a squeaky hammer as well, so as he should. 35 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,680 We're not playing favorites. Just Wade can't even pick that one up. 36 00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:46,520 I've heard he's not worthy that I could say. Maybe one day. The 37 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:52,439 squeaky has stopped though, so that's that's great. Maybe I'll regret not recording 38 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:54,680 over this in a second end last, but certainly not least, shout out 39 00:02:54,719 --> 00:03:00,439 too our sponsors this week, which is been online dot AG. As always, 40 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:02,400 they make this podcast possible. Please support them. You'll be hearing from 41 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:07,719 them again in just a minute after that unprofessional intro is now over, Adam, 42 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:10,159 do you want to take us through this? I'll give a brief reminder 43 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:15,520 for anyone who's just tuning in for the first time. We have forms out 44 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,319 on NBA Maths Twitter account, follow at MBA underscore Maths so you can participate 45 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:23,199 in these rankings. We come up with composite rankings, Adam, and I 46 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,560 do our own. Those are input as well as the voters who you guys 47 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:31,360 input and that gives us our composite ranking. So without further ado, Adam, 48 00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:35,439 who checked in at number ten for the Indiana Pacers, Well, I 49 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:38,759 was really pleased with the Indiana Pacers voting in general, because this was the 50 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,400 first team of all the ones we've done so far that didn't seem to have 51 00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:46,039 any trolling ballots. It seemed like everyone took it seriously. We had fewer 52 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,520 players in the honorable mentions, and we had eleven different players appear in the 53 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,199 top tens between the fan vote, me and you. So Thaddeus Young barely 54 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,680 missed out in the composite rankings because the ten spot went to Lance Stevens. 55 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:06,560 Definitely a polarizing player just because of that intense, antagonistic play style. I 56 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:12,599 think the enduring memory of his tenure in Indiana, really his two ten years 57 00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:16,439 in Indiana is probably him blowing in Lebron James's ear. But he was an 58 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,360 irritant and he was good at it. He wasn't an efficient scorer, but 59 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:27,720 he reached some havoc on defense, and I think overall like it is hard 60 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:31,879 to view his time in Indiana as anything other than a positive. I kind 61 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:35,759 of consider him more spectacle than substance. That being said, did provide some 62 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,920 playmaking. Like you said, was a defensive irritant. I actually put him 63 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,160 higher on my ballot because I didn't want to get killed for putting him too 64 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,759 low. And the fact that he checked in at number ten makes you wish 65 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:47,839 that I put him at number ten instead of number eight. But he were 66 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,279 actually the highest on him. You had him at eight, the fans had 67 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,120 him at nine, and I had him down at number ten. Wow. 68 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,240 Well, I look, I'm gonna be honest, I would put I'd probably 69 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,879 put him down a number nine or ten. Now, so take this with 70 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:02,519 a grain of salt. But I agree with everything you said. It's just 71 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:08,120 to me, I've always questioned whether what he did actually made this huge impact 72 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:12,680 or was it just sort of this become this law in the real time lower 73 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:15,680 where you know he was. I guess he was a defensive irritant, but 74 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,519 how effective was he actually? Still you look at his numbers, you look 75 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:20,079 at the way he played. He did provide some extra ball handling for them, 76 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:25,120 and like you said, at least gave them something of not just an 77 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,360 irritant, but maybe a little bit of an identity on the perimeter defensively, 78 00:05:28,439 --> 00:05:31,040 even if he was more spectacle than substance, you can use spectacle to your 79 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,279 advantage sometimes, and I certainly do think that that helped him in certain matchup. 80 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:38,439 So he does deserve to be on this list. Just not a player 81 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:42,639 that I've ever liked on or off the court. Yeah, just solely the 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,800 twenty thirteen fourteen season, the last of his first stint with the Pacers, 83 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,879 that got him onto the ballot for me, even if he hadn't played any 84 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,920 other games. You know, thirteen point eight point seven point two rebounds, 85 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:55,720 four point six assist per game while playing that pesky defense. Someone had to 86 00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:58,920 fill that role. Someone had to take those shots, and the fact that 87 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:02,839 he could do that's semi efficiently. That season, Wall serving as a playmaker, 88 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,800 Wall becoming one of the better rebounding guards we'd seen during that time period 89 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:14,120 in NBA history. All of those are our testaments to the import that he 90 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,000 had in Indiana, even if it was partially mythologized. The contract he gets 91 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,560 from the Charlotte Hornets, is that going to be an episode eleven of the 92 00:06:20,639 --> 00:06:24,480 Last Dants. Do you think maybe or will that be in episode twelve? 93 00:06:26,079 --> 00:06:29,480 I hope it's just in one of them. We need it did. Yeah, 94 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:31,600 I mean not to get too far down on this tangent, but it 95 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,920 still feels weird to me that that that whole documentary ended without any mention of 96 00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:42,519 the Wizards, or the or the Hornets or really anything anti Michael Jordan related. 97 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,560 But well, yeah, that's the price to approve it was fun. 98 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,040 I don't mean that we should winners get to write history, right, and 99 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,279 this isn't a shitting on the Last Dance podcast? So can you take us 100 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,920 too? We have no number nine because we have a tie at number two, 101 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,920 So we'll go over Darren Collison. First, he was tenth on the 102 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,560 fan ballot. He was eighth for me, and he was seventh for you. 103 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:05,240 Spoiler alert. Dan will not be the highest on every single member of 104 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,319 the Indiana Pacers, but that is two in a row. I think I 105 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:12,680 valued his theirness in two different stints, played for two different versions of a 106 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,959 pretty good Indiana Pacers team. I mean the first year in his first stint, 107 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:17,720 they were bad, but then really good the second year. And he 108 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,040 always just you know, we talk about he's sort of like the Patrick Beverley 109 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:27,279 of offense, where he can do so many different things while fitting next to 110 00:07:27,399 --> 00:07:30,519 everybody, Like he can shoot threes off a catch. There was a little 111 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:33,439 bit of dribble penetration to his game and his prime he could hit some stuff 112 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:38,680 off off the dribble, and so to have that at point guard, you 113 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,279 know, never going to be the best playmaker, never going to be a 114 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:45,480 really good defender. But the way that Patrick Beverley fits a team on defense, 115 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:47,680 I feel like he does the same but on offense. And that's why 116 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,920 I really valued him for Indiana. Obviously, the off court stuff, if 117 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,360 you the domestic violence charges, if you wanted to drag him down for that, 118 00:07:56,439 --> 00:07:58,519 I'm not going to harp. I mean, I'm not going to hold 119 00:07:58,519 --> 00:08:01,839 that against anybody. But really, looking at the basketball, I think he 120 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,800 was pretty valuable to two different quality versions of the Pacers over this decade. 121 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,439 I really like that Beverly comparison. It's not something I've I've thought about before 122 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,639 just now, but it makes you said vomit when I said it. No, 123 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:18,600 it just was I was looking at some numbers and just kind of snapped 124 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,480 to attention there because I wasn't expecting that, But it makes sense. You 125 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:26,040 know, I have long viewed him as as one of those ideal offensive role 126 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:31,279 players, you know, a super efficient jump shooter. He led the NBA 127 00:08:31,439 --> 00:08:35,159 with forty six point eight percent three point shooting during the twenty seventeen eighteen season 128 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,600 with the Pacers. But beyond that, it seems like he's one of those 129 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,799 guys who doesn't make bad plays on the court. We should say as as 130 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,559 you did. I don't mean to laugh at that. That was just well, 131 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,200 well time jabbing him there deserved him. Yeah, I needed yeah, 132 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,000 I needed to clarify there. But yeah, I mean, he doesn't make 133 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:56,159 mistakes with the ball. He doesn't take bad shots. Just we don't see 134 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,000 point guards come around who are who are this accurate from long range and can 135 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:03,879 play make without turning the ball over. That's a rare combination and it's valuable, 136 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,159 and it kind of makes me regret not having him even higher, especially 137 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,679 with that theirness factor coming into the equation because he is sixthen minutes played over 138 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,799 the last decade. He look and you know, he gets bonus points because 139 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:20,120 Basketball Reference doesn't separate stints when you're looking at combined stats for teams, and 140 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:22,600 so it just says that from two eleven to twenty nineteen, he's he's with 141 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,919 a pacer. Right. Look, his airness could have technically gone up a 142 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,039 little bit too, had he not retired over the summer, maybe they still 143 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:33,600 pivot into Malcolm Brogden since they had so many free agents. But yeah, 144 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,679 the arness that definitely helps him there as well. Well, he's tied with 145 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:41,519 a player who does not benefit from theirness. He's tenth and minutes played for 146 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:43,399 the decade, and that's Danny Granger. He was a tough one to rank, 147 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,799 as is so often the case with these guys who who peeked before the 148 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,480 decade in question. So you know, his Indiana tenure dated back to two 149 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:56,919 thousand and five, but we're only looking at twenty ten eleven through the end 150 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,039 of his time in Indiana, which came midway through thirteen fourteen. So the 151 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,759 best season was that first one of the decade, where it was already clear 152 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:13,440 that he was declining from the all star caliber do everything score, and that 153 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:18,440 made him tough to rank because it's not really that peak version that we're remembering. 154 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,679 So the fans still had him up at fourth. I wonder if there 155 00:10:22,759 --> 00:10:26,679 was a little bit of confusion about which seasons that we were considering there, 156 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,039 because I don't think that there's much of an objective case to have him that 157 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,080 high. I actually did not have him in my top ten. I considered 158 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:39,080 him, but there are so many players that played for so much time in 159 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,159 Indiana over this decade or had similar peak seasons, and you did have him 160 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,200 in a tie for your tenth spot with Daddy is Young. Yeah, shout 161 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,480 out to Daddy is Young. For all he did defensively for the Pacers. 162 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,679 I know that he was this offensive liability to come play off time, but 163 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,200 he really we give credit to Miles Tner and he deserves it, but he 164 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,720 really shaped that defensive identity just everywhere. One of the best help defend in 165 00:11:00,759 --> 00:11:03,279 the NBA. So for Danny Granger, it does seem I don't know if 166 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,399 he was declining so much as the look the left knee injury stuff that torpedoed 167 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:11,000 his career obviously, but before that, it just felt like the Pacers were 168 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:16,080 kind of shifting to more of a committee approach in the two really good seasons 169 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,759 he had. You know, you have Darren Collison there, Roy Hibbert's taking 170 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:22,919 on more of a role. You're it wasn't clear that they were grooming Paul 171 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,960 George for stardom, but he went from playing twenty minutes a game to the 172 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,159 almost thirty. You had David West there, you had George Hill there, 173 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,080 and so he just put together still two really good seasons. But it wouldn't 174 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,039 shock me if people just not even got the seasons mixed up. You just 175 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:41,120 remember that Danny Green averaged almost twenty six points per game with two thousand and 176 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,600 eight two thousand nine, hitting forty percent of his threes, and you're just 177 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,840 giving him credit for that. And then the next season two ten, which 178 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,159 two thousand ten kind of overlaps in this decade. Anyway, you're gonna remember, 179 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,039 do any Green average twenty four plus points a game while shooting pretty well 180 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,600 from three again? And Danny Granger was really good. If I said Green 181 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:00,039 at all, I apologize for the for the misstep that just rolls off and 182 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,600 talking, but I think he had two good enough seasons in this decade looking 183 00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:07,879 at twenty two eleven and then the lockout campaign thereafter to make my top ten. 184 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:11,480 But I totally understand why you left him off. But this is just 185 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:16,519 a shout out to peak Danny Granger, who was an exceptional offensive basketball player. 186 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,919 Could you imagine had he never gotten injured if Paul George. I really 187 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:24,000 don't think Danny Granger's injury was part of Paul George's rise, at least not 188 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:28,919 to the to the point where had both of them stayed in Danny Granger remained 189 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,080 healthy, I don't think it would have prevented Paul George from becoming the player 190 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:33,919 that he did, and I would have loved to have seen the two of 191 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,240 them play together at close to their peaks. I think it would have hindered 192 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:41,440 him a little bit, just because Granger was such a ball dominant force during 193 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,440 his prime, that George might not have been allowed the bandwidth to experiment with 194 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,039 his offensive game like he did and really blossom, maybe filling more of a 195 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:54,399 niche offensive role than he does now. But I don't think it would have 196 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:00,519 prevented him from becoming a star. Fair enough, what part of anoxist? 197 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,080 There's there's no shortage of action going on in our exclusive partner bet Online. 198 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:09,399 NASCAR is backed and bet online has hundreds of other games, events, and 199 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,559 sports to get in on it. 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We have another tie now that we're moving on 208 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,399 those yeahs and six, I think we have to approach these together because we're 209 00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:56,000 like legally obligated to talk about these two players in conjunction with each other at 210 00:13:56,039 --> 00:14:01,159 all times. And the first of them is Miles Turner, who was eighth 211 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:03,279 the fans, seventh for me, sixth for you. Yet again, you're 212 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,200 the highest one on one of the pacers, and of course he's tied with 213 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:11,600 Demonta Sabonis, who was six for both the fans and me and down at 214 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:18,519 ninth for you defense versus Offense, the more longevity verse the remarkable peak that 215 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:26,039 Sabonis has achieved this year. It's a clash in styles and and differing tenures 216 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,120 from two players who always seem linked together. Because Indiana can't decide which it 217 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:31,799 wants to commit to as of now, it's commit it to both. This 218 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:37,159 placement it's got if if Indie Cornross Caitlyn Cooper is listening, one of my 219 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,440 favorite writers and people to talk about, people to talk coops with on the 220 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,759 podcast, They're inextricably linked and I always have to ask her on the four 221 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,159 or five times she's come on about whether Indie's going to choose or who she 222 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,159 would pick, And so this is probably gonna drive her absolutely wild or crazy. 223 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,799 This is one of my favorite placements of anything so far. That they're 224 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,519 just tied in this because they're so inextricably linked that they just can't get any 225 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:03,759 separation. For this is This is probably a hot take at this point because 226 00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:07,399 I'll fully admit that Sabonus is the better player than Turner right now, or 227 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,799 at least has had the better season. I really think that he's become overrated 228 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,240 because I don't know that he's someone that you can run an offense through for 229 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,120 stretches, and that combination of force and finesse is just really high quality. 230 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,759 But I feel like he kind of pigeon holds you to a certain type of 231 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,679 roster where if they were to change up the personnel around him, or maybe 232 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:31,679 things could get even a little bit iffier with the current personnel when you have 233 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:37,320 brogged in and a fully healthy Victor Oladipo and a T. J. Warren. 234 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,080 I don't know how well he fits if you're going to ask him to 235 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,759 play off the bomb or if you're not going to give him as many looks 236 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,120 against second units that he could lead on his own, and if you do 237 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,480 end up choosing him over Miles Turner, and perhaps they will, just because 238 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:54,759 I think Turner holds holds more trade value because his skill set is more scalable, 239 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,240 another team is going to view it is more translatable than sabonuses, even 240 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:00,639 though Sabonus right now, I'll admit, is the better player, and so 241 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,080 that's why I end up higher on Turner. Probably, I just still have 242 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:08,360 questions about what Sabonus can do to this team. Is he more of that 243 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,200 guy who's going to preserve your floor or raise your floor, and then your 244 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,960 ceiling is just always going to be a little bit lower than it could be. 245 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,679 Can he shoot more threes or shoot threes at all if you want to 246 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,080 call at that. What does it look like if he is a full time 247 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,720 center without Turner there? Defensively? And he might be a little bit underrated 248 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:29,000 defensively at this point, because I think people view him as this huge liability 249 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,000 and so what he can do for them on the glass and it feels like 250 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,080 he really has gotten a little bit better at moving laterally over the past two 251 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,840 seasons or seasons and a half, whatever you want to call it. And 252 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:40,639 Pacers fans going to be smarter than I am on the Pacers, So call 253 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:44,080 me out for whatever ship takes you're hearing here. That's just where I land 254 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,559 and why I ended up having him at ninth and where I'm sure he probably 255 00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:51,480 ended up in the top four or five on some other people's ballots. I 256 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,440 don't really have much to add to the analysis. I just have a trivia 257 00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:57,879 question and a production suggestion. Which do you want first? Give me the 258 00:16:57,919 --> 00:17:03,000 production suggest I think I think the Hardwood Knox podcast needs a hot take sound. 259 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,559 I think as soon as you you just embark on one of those that 260 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,799 we just need some some sort of sound that you can add in, just 261 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,920 an indicator that what you're about to hear is is going to get spicy. 262 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,319 So if you have a suggestion for one for this podcast, throw it at 263 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,440 me now, Adam or tell me it just be like a sizzling sound, 264 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:27,359 like just something cooking on the grill. Listeners get at us at at Adam 265 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,720 me or the Hardwood Knox account at Hardwoodknox, I'm at namph Valley at a 266 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,640 v Ali at Pramo zero or nine, tell us what you want the hot 267 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,640 take sound to be. I may just pick one for this podcast and insert 268 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,559 it with the Zabonus take. I'm not even sure if it's that spicy though. 269 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:41,960 Do you think it is? And I'm not going to be like a 270 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,559 dick here, it's not that spicy. I thought it was going to be 271 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,759 spicier when you when you started to talk, but you justified it pretty well. 272 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:52,240 Yeah, I'm just I yeah, That's where I'm at. It's overratedness 273 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:56,519 is tough because it depends on where you're rating them. Overratedness, that's a 274 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,079 that's a new gonna be a new metric right there with theirness. But speaking 275 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:07,079 of spiciness, the trivia question, the twenty sixteen NBA Draft class contains a 276 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,599 lot of notable names. Pascal Siakam is where that spicy segue comes from, 277 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,759 Ben Simmons, Malcolm Brogden, Jamal Murray, Jalen Brown, Buddy Healed, 278 00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:21,880 Brandon Ingram cars Leavert, Malik Beasley we can throw in? And Demontes Sabonis. 279 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,920 Where does Sabonis rank among that class and windshares thus far in their careers? 280 00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:37,119 I'm gonna say he ranks fourth. He's actually up at third. Damn 281 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,519 it, He's third. So fifth is Jamal Murray at sixteen point one, 282 00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:44,640 Brogden is sixteen point eight, Sabonis is twenty point six, Siakam is twenty 283 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,920 point seven, and Simmons is twenty four point four. Wow. Where does 284 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,440 Jalen Brown end up on that? Jaylen Brown is down in seventh at thirteen 285 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,480 point five, sandwiched between Yaka Peardle and Buddy Healed. What the hell is 286 00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:57,799 Jako Peardle doing on there. I guess he played for some green. He's 287 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:02,200 always been EF fishing. He's been on good teams, and you know bigs 288 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,240 are typically favored in this metric. That's true. I wouldn't say he's always 289 00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:07,279 been on good teams because the Spurs are awful. Moving on, though, 290 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,400 did you did you have any thoughts on Miles Turner being here? If you 291 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,160 had, maybe this is a question for you. If you had to pick 292 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,920 one, are you a Turner or a SI bonus guy. I'm still on 293 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,680 in a vacuum. I'm in favor of Sibonis because I think that he's just 294 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:27,440 a better all around player. I think there's more room for growth. I 295 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:33,319 think that his ability to facilitate, to power through players to score finesse a 296 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:37,680 developing jumper that isn't quite there yet. I think that he's the more malleable 297 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,599 player at this stage of his career, who is a better plug and play 298 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:48,200 option across the board. But I might still pick Turner just knowing who the 299 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,359 Pacers have on their roster. If we assume that Oladipo gets back to full 300 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,960 strength, if we assume that Brogden is their long term and we still have 301 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,880 t J. Warren. Where are the touches coming from. I would rather 302 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,640 have that dominant rim protector, shot blocker, defensive asset who hasn't really complained 303 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,880 about having fewer offensive touches. I think what hurts the Bonus's case too, 304 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,799 is his three point percentage dipped this year when his volume went up. I 305 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:14,160 just wonder what he'd be like in a situation if he told him to bomb 306 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,119 threes at a permanent clip of Jaren Jackson Junior or something. I think he 307 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,920 could end up being more valuable offensively. And because you have Sabonus there, 308 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:23,680 I don't think he's been given enough opportunity now to kind of see what he 309 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,160 can do from scratch, maybe in the post as they've gotten away from that. 310 00:20:27,319 --> 00:20:30,079 I'm not entirely ruling out that they can work together. I would probably 311 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,079 lean towards no, just looking at how the Pacers are built now. But 312 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:38,039 they've they've proven that they can work defensively together just fine. It's the offense 313 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:44,119 that becomes a little bit wonky. Yeah, we speaking a defensive big man 314 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:45,960 though. Boy, here it goes. At number five. We have Roy 315 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:49,279 Hibbert, who was fifth for the Fans. He was fourth for me. 316 00:20:51,079 --> 00:20:52,799 And he was fourth, and he was fifth for you, so we were 317 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:59,519 all pretty similar on him. The first thing I always think of with Hibbert 318 00:20:59,559 --> 00:21:04,200 is just that he is one of those true testaments to how quickly the NBA 319 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:11,400 changed, Like it's amazing how fast we went from these defensively dominant pacers teams 320 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,599 that were challenging Lebron James's squads with Hibbert at the center of that. You 321 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,720 know, it just exemplifying the idea of verticality and challenging shots around the rim. 322 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,759 But the immobility lack of offensive contributions meant that he got phased out really 323 00:21:25,839 --> 00:21:29,119 quickly. He went from he went from making the All Defensive first team in 324 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:36,519 twenty thirteen fourteen to basically being out of the league four years later after he 325 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:41,720 had washed out with the Lakers, Charlotte and Denver. It's not even that 326 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,640 he was on the All Defensive team in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen and then became 327 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:52,359 a liability against the Hawks defensively in that postseason. That's just a wild progression 328 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,799 and devolution of value. It's like, I don't even know what to make 329 00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:57,759 of it. And that's why it was hard to place him because I think 330 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:02,839 you're you're still kind of pulled towards recency. And look, there's for most 331 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,519 of this decade he has not been considered an asset. He was looking at 332 00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:10,640 just his time when the Lakers from twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen, plays in 333 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,359 other seasons, splits between Charlotte, six games in Denver, and then he's 334 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,920 out of the NBA. So he's been a negative asset to not in the 335 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:22,440 NBA more this decade than he's been actually on the court essentially, and that 336 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,720 makes him difficult to place. But I don't think that we can, as 337 00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,519 you put it, ignore how valuable he was to the Pacers when they were 338 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:34,960 challenging those lebron led Miami Heat teams. You know that iconic block he had 339 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,279 on Carmelo Anthony in the twenty thirteen playoffs. He was a phenomenal rim protector. 340 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:45,440 It's just the NBA really pushed, like I don't even know what the 341 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,599 word. They styled him out of the league quickly, absolutely, And I 342 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,759 think this is one of those cases where looking at the progression of his on 343 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:59,079 off swings is really interesting because in twenty eleven, twelve plus four point eight 344 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,599 with him on the court compared to when he was off the court plus ten 345 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,279 point four swing in twenty twelve thirteen, plus six point eight the next season, 346 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:08,759 but then his final year in Indiana minus three point two with the Lakers, 347 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,799 minus fifteen point one, and then with the Hornets minus point five for 348 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:17,160 forty two games. Then a massive minus forty nine point one with the Nuggets 349 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,559 over a whopping eleven minutes. So let's throw that small sample out of the 350 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,400 window. But still, like, how quickly did the switch flip where he 351 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,440 was clearly an asset? And then the NBA had changed to the point that 352 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,559 no matter how much Indiana wanted to build that pack the paint funnel things towards 353 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,880 Hibbert defense, it just didn't work anymore. And what actually probably hurt him 354 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,079 more is his offense, because he was just never the most efficient offensive player 355 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,240 for a big not someone that you should have wanted to post up ever, 356 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,519 and then not really a guy that you looked at as probably just didn't really 357 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:55,160 have the foot speed or the finishing touched to be this really valued rim runner 358 00:23:55,559 --> 00:24:00,319 off of screens, and without then a jump shot or anything resembling one from 359 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,599 beyond the arc. It makes it really difficult to keep him on the floor. 360 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,519 It wasn't just that he was mismatched defensively. It's that he's mismatched defensively 361 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:12,000 and then doesn't really give you any value on the offensive end. And so 362 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,000 look, I know he took long twos through throughout his career at a modest 363 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:21,200 frequency, I guess for his position, if we want to call it. 364 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,000 I don't know really how how efficient he was in those situations during his prime. 365 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:27,559 You know, he has some of these outlier seasons where, oh, 366 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:30,559 in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, he shot forty four percent on long twos, 367 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:33,519 which which is a good number. But you look at some of his 368 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:36,599 other pacer or seasons thirty two point five percent, thirty three point three percent, 369 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,480 then there's forty four point three percent, thirty six point eight percent. 370 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,200 It's sort of all over the place. And this inability to have a continuous 371 00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:48,440 offensive value or consistent utility that probably pushed him out of a league just as 372 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:53,240 much, if not more so, than him being unable to hang with the 373 00:24:53,319 --> 00:25:00,160 NBA's new wave of defense. Totally agree with all of that. I mean, 374 00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:06,599 I think it's I think it's important that we finished this Hibbert section just 375 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,319 by saying that none of this is truly a knock against what he provided to 376 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,680 the Pacers during his peak years. It's just it's an example of how much 377 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,519 the NBA shifted and how quickly it shifted, rather than an indictment of his 378 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,400 skills, because he came up playing at Georgetown and his early years in the 379 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:33,720 NBA with the idea of filling this role, which he mastered. He was 380 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,119 really good in that role, but then that role quickly became devalued. And 381 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,839 that's that's not an indication that he wasn't a valuable player, or he wasn't 382 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,640 a good basketball player, or he wasn't deserving of a top five spot in 383 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:52,039 these rankings, just that things changed. Now. I'm totally with you there. 384 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,599 And look, like I said, one of my favorite live action photos 385 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:00,200 is Roy Hibberts, Blacker and Carmelo Anthony. That's just one of the most 386 00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:03,519 iconic photos definitely of the decade, but for me in memory, so just 387 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:08,279 and that's really sort of this snapshot of how important he was to that to 388 00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:12,559 that Pacers team. Yep, who do we have at number four? And 389 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,400 number four? We have the guy who is third and minutes played for the 390 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,880 Pacers over this decade, and that is George Hill. George Hill was down 391 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,039 at seven for the fans, he was up at three for me, and 392 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:26,960 he was number two for you. So I'll let you take this one away 393 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:32,240 as the clear high man on George Hill. Look, George Hill is just 394 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:37,200 like this game manager on steroids, can just do everything. And he was 395 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:40,720 so good defensively with the Pacers too. I feel like that gets overlooked. 396 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,599 And for someone who plays the point guard position to be there and be that 397 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,079 effective of a presence on defense, you have to really love it. And 398 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,880 then you look at all the different types of talent he played alongside during his 399 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:59,440 few years in Indiana and someone who you know, I'm not gonna really like, 400 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:02,599 say, don't want to use that Patrick Beverley of Universal Fit on offense 401 00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:04,599 again with him, but he is kind of that guy and like, yeah, 402 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,440 you know, he can dribble a little bit and he can get into 403 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,559 the lane. But his shooting was always just top shelf and could play off 404 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,240 of anybody fit in really any type of offense. And I think with the 405 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,720 exception of twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, his shooting has been so good, you've 406 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,960 really seen it. Just look at how you know, when he could stay 407 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,839 healthy just moving from the Pacers to the Utah Jazz. Look at how valuably 408 00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:29,079 he was there. Look at what he's done for the Bucks this season. 409 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,839 And that's just sort of this compactive view of what he did for the Pacers 410 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,000 on offense is just never had to worry about certain touches or how to use 411 00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:41,480 him functionally. He could just fill those gaps, fit in around everyone else, 412 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,279 was it, whether it was David West, whether it was Paul George, 413 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,680 whoever. And to have that type of floor spacing from him where he 414 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,400 could hit off the catch. When the Pacers did that was a big part 415 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,640 of their success in those I call it success, even though they weren't necessarily 416 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,319 successful against Lebron led heat, but that's why. That's a big part of 417 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,519 the reason why they were there every year. And so I had no about 418 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:03,279 putting him at number two for the Pacers. And look, he was top 419 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:06,880 three in minutes and if you look at just some of you know he was. 420 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,279 He was second in value over replacement player as well, And so I 421 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:11,359 don't think it's too much of a reach to put him second. But you 422 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,119 did say that he I was one the highest on him, which is apparently 423 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,680 a prevailing theme in this podcast. And two, it does seem like he 424 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,960 had the highest variants in his finishes he did of every player he did. 425 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,680 I think the one I guess the two things that you really left out there 426 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,279 are his shoulders, because that's one of the things I associate most with with 427 00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:34,880 George Hill is just the massive Dwight Howard of point guard shoulders. And I 428 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,279 mean that's fair, right, Like, isn't that one of the first things 429 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,960 ever actually thought about that? But now that you're saying it, I can't 430 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,119 think about it. It's just his jerseys do not look like they fit. 431 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:51,319 But I've always just I've thought of George Hills just a winner. You know, 432 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,720 some guys just seem to be winners. They always played for good teams. 433 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:59,079 They they're fine filling whatever role they need to fill. They're able to 434 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:03,160 contribute in so much any various ways that just aid the winning cause. Was 435 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,319 he ever really a star? I don't think so. But you know, 436 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,519 as as you said, the malleability on offense, the optionality on defense, 437 00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:15,119 just the ability to fill so many different roles and to fill them all at 438 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680 such a high level, combined with the bairness, I strongly considered him for 439 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,200 my second spot as well. I really struggled with with two through five. 440 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,079 Honestly, with the Pacers, they were all kind of clumped together for me, 441 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:32,240 all right. And so twenty fourteen, fifteen Georgia was on one. 442 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,799 And so that's the year the Paciers weren't very good because Paul George that's the 443 00:29:34,839 --> 00:29:38,079 year that he only played in six regular season games. But like that's not 444 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:41,039 something he's not even star dependent. Like he was someone who could put up 445 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,279 semi efficient numbers on his own, and that was just the good years. 446 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:48,319 The Pacers leading scorer that season by a fairly substantial margin, CJ. Miles 447 00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:52,359 was number two at thirteen point five points per game. So you look at 448 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:55,799 what George George Hill can do being able to manage an offense on his own, 449 00:29:55,799 --> 00:30:00,279 but then also being the quintessential superstar accessory. I really value that in 450 00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:03,559 players. And so no, he was never a star, but he is 451 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,079 a superstar role player as high end as they get. When he was in 452 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:10,400 his prime, and look even now, he's just been so useful to the 453 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:14,440 Milwaukee Bucks. The NBA's leader in three point shooting as as we record this, 454 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,480 that season is clearly not up for debate in this but I think it 455 00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:19,559 just shows, you know, I use that word scalability, but it shows 456 00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:23,519 how universally translatable he was, not just from team to team, but from 457 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,480 lineup to line up, from team makeup to team makeup, to style to 458 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,240 style system proof if you could call him that, yeah, I think that's 459 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:33,759 fair. I was trying to see if there was any objective evidence from my 460 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,480 winner claim. And you know, the Basketball Reference opponents finders are pretty interesting 461 00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:41,680 for players. I if any listeners have not checked those out, you should, 462 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,160 because they show you the head to head record that a player has against 463 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,400 everyone he's ever faced. So Hill does have a losing record against quite a 464 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,880 few people that he's faced a lot, largely from more of the dynastic or 465 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,440 championship caliber teams that he's had to play. But one really interesting thing, 466 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,279 and this is just totally tangential and probably not important at all, but he 467 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,440 is undefeated against one, two, three, four, five, six, 468 00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:12,640 six different players that he's faced at least ten times. And they're Corey mcgetty, 469 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,319 Quincy Acy, Zach Lavine, Chris Kaman, Jordan Clarkson, and he's 470 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:22,200 somehow twelve and zero against Anthony Davis's teams, which I just I thought it 471 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,000 was interesting and weird. Do you think was his stay that's a sign that 472 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:27,920 the Bucks are going to beat the Lakers this year if they play. That's 473 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,960 an excellent point and very interesting. That's why they sign Way to come up 474 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,960 with that one on the fly. But also, do you think he was 475 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,240 held back at all in the rankings because by some people, at least because 476 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,319 of the Kawhi Leonard trade. No, I don't think so. I don't 477 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,920 think that's not It doesn't seem like that's a very painful memory for Pacers fans. 478 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,480 No, I think he ingratiated himself to that fan base throughout his time 479 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,559 there to the point that that's not really relevant anymore. That's I'm just I'm 480 00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:59,240 curious because I don't even when you think about you know, we even talked 481 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,200 about how the Hawks should regret getting Trey Young and a pick for like Luca 482 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,759 don Jich and you to play the hot takes sound again there, But I'm 483 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:10,039 just saying, like, we don't we never think about that with George Hill 484 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:14,359 and Kawhi Leonard, and I don't know if that's because people still think they 485 00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:16,640 can't. Leonard was not a system player in San Antonio, so but I 486 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,680 think that's a testament to just how good Paul George became. Not Paul George, 487 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:22,960 maybe it is a little bit, but how good George Hill became. 488 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,119 They both have George on their names. It's an understandable slip there. I 489 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,559 probably called Danny Granger Danny Green at one point, calling George George. You 490 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:32,720 did once. I was gonna let it go, but you called yourself out, 491 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:36,480 so it worked out. I will always call myself out. Who are 492 00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:38,720 we at with number three? At number three, we have the one and 493 00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:44,480 only Victor Oladipo. The fans had him up at number two, which I 494 00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:46,680 get. I had him at number five, You had him at number four. 495 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,599 I did not give him any credit for his singing, even if he 496 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,960 might deserve it, but he was just he was hard to rank because the 497 00:32:53,039 --> 00:33:00,039 one year that he just exploded with Indiana twenty seventeen eighteen, that was probably 498 00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,799 the best season they've had from any player this decade. Maybe did it? 499 00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:08,440 Was it better than anything that Paul George did. It's at least in the 500 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,960 conversation. But then you know, only thirty six games in twenty eighteen nineteen, 501 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:19,839 only thirteen games at a far lower level this this current season. It 502 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,720 was tough because he just he doesn't register on the bairness front, only seventeenth 503 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:28,200 and minutes played for the decade. So it's it's the peak versus the longevity 504 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:31,920 argue argument all all boiled down into one player here. Yeah, look, 505 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,160 if you're just going strictly by talent, he's number two, without question. 506 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,559 A sample size has the matter, And I'm wondering if people are misremembering that 507 00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:43,839 he wasn't It wasn't that he wasn't good before he was injured last year, 508 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,559 but he wasn't super efficient, like he wasn't at that twenty seventeen twenty eighteen 509 00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:50,720 level. And maybe that was because he was trying to play through that right 510 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,640 quad injury in the first first place. But when you're looking at sheer contributions, 511 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,359 I do think number two is I even think number three is a little 512 00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:00,920 bit lofty. I put him at number four myself just because of that peak, 513 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,720 and you were even a little bit lower. You had him at number 514 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,480 five. You said, so, look I get it just looking at his 515 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:10,719 talent in a bubble, but the availability just really hasn't been there. And 516 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,639 again twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, there was that clear drop off from twenty 517 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,639 seventeen twenty eighteen, So it's not like he's had this super sustained peak. 518 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,800 And I do think that he's way better than he was with the Thunder or 519 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,639 the Orlando Magic. I don't think that that's up for debate. I think 520 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:30,679 we've shown that he can be a legitimate star in this league. But we 521 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,840 need to see Canny one stay healthy or is this you know this right quad 522 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,000 injury? How's he going to do coming back from it? He was perking 523 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:40,079 up offensively a little bit and looked really good on defense during the time he 524 00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:45,119 played in Indy this year. Just still so many questions though about the sustainability 525 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:49,440 of his apex, not whether he's good or not of his apex. And 526 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,559 so I number two, number three, like that, see him's pretty high. 527 00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:53,599 I even thought I was a little too high on him, putting him 528 00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:58,760 at number four. So David West is second in the composite rankings. He 529 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,960 was I did have him second, You and the fans both had him third, 530 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,800 and I'm just I'm revealing that now just because I do think it's interesting 531 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,440 to debate who should have been second, because it just depends on what you 532 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:13,559 vary so much what you value most, you know, So second, second 533 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:19,119 through fifth was was West, Oladipo, Hill, and Hibbert. Oladipo was 534 00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:23,519 the only like true star of those four players during their times in Indiana. 535 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:25,840 If you want to say David West was a star in New Orleans, I 536 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,320 think that's valid, but he didn't play as much. He's played at a 537 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,880 lower level for part of his tenure. So it is interesting, like it's 538 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:45,760 it's harder to acquire a player of Oladipo's caliber in the NBA. So the 539 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,239 fact that Indiana had access to a player like that, a guy who could 540 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:58,119 totally take over on offense, who demonstrated the ability to not just maintain his 541 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,119 performance, but elevate his performance and some of the biggest moments, and still 542 00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:07,639 contribute with effective, with physical, with intense defense at all times. I 543 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:13,639 do understand placing him in those second and third spots, even if there isn't 544 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:17,440 necessarily an objective argument for it, if only because Indiana's options for that second 545 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,639 spot are limited, you know, like George Hill is a fine choice I 546 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,800 considered putting in there. I have David West there, but both of those 547 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:31,719 are guys who filled smaller, less important roles, and there are there are 548 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:37,000 only three players in the last decade for Indiana who have been able to shoulder 549 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,960 that star Burton and it's it's Granger, It's Paul George, and it's it's 550 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,840 Victor Oladipot. So even if I had him at fifth, I do understand 551 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:51,320 elevating him. My one counter argument to all that is he never died as 552 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,599 her blonde like like George Hill did. That's true, So I just that's 553 00:36:54,599 --> 00:37:00,159 my shoulders are smaller. That's true. George Hill has the shoulders the Dwight 554 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:04,599 Howard shoulders, and he had blonde hair. That that garnered that reaction from 555 00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:07,920 Popovitch. Do you remember that game where Greg Popovitch was like stroking his own 556 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,199 hair to make fun of George hills bleached hair. I one of my favorite 557 00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,760 moments in recent memory. I definitely maybe I'm being too bullish then on saying 558 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,880 that all the people shouldn't be that high, but the theirness it's just so 559 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,840 low to me, and that there are still so many question marks subscribed to 560 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,960 what he's done in Indiana, clearly important to what they're doing offensively, particularly 561 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,079 if he wants a Bonus and Turner to work together on that end of the 562 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:35,880 floor. I just have a hard time saying that he deserves to be that 563 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,519 high ahead of David West and George Hill. Speak of David West, though 564 00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:43,840 you said, who was it number two? Number three on minds? Did 565 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,719 he ever miss a long two pointer? Probably not. He shot about fifty 566 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,639 percent on long two's ninetieth percent tile over that time while in Indiana those three 567 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:58,960 seasons, And was that this is a trivia question for you. Is David 568 00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:07,039 West the biggest free agent signing in Indiana Pacers history? I mean probably, 569 00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:10,559 So I'm trying to think if I'm missing anyone, unless you don't think you 570 00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:15,760 are. Unless all there, all their stars have been homegrown or acquired via 571 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,000 trade, unless you're like super High and Bollion, Magdanovitch or something. I 572 00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:23,000 don't. I don't know, Yeah, I don't. I don't think anyone 573 00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:28,679 would. I also think that David West, just probably maybe maybe he or 574 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:34,280 Lance Stevenson would be the guy I would never want to play from this last 575 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,199 decade of Indiana basketball, because you know, West was just this physical force 576 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,119 on both ends. You know, he was a great defender who prided himself 577 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:50,360 on taking those bruising matchups, but he doled out some punishment on offense too. 578 00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:52,480 I think the play I associate most with him is just kind of backing 579 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,679 down a defender and just throwing his shoulder into him. I feel like if 580 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,320 you played David West during his peak years with New Orleans or Indiana, you 581 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,480 were going to emerge with a Bruce Sternham, for sure. I don't disagree 582 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,119 with you. He just threw his weight around everywhere and just seemed like a 583 00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:12,800 super strong guy. I always viewed him as sort of this culture setter, 584 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,000 but given what happened to the I think it was that was that the twenty 585 00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:19,800 thirteen twenty fourteen Indiana Pacers. Maybe I gave him too much credit to that, 586 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,280 but also seems like someone who kind of that Thaddeus young guy who could 587 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,159 be really valuable but behind the scenes in that capacity. But perhaps I'm overvaluing 588 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,920 him and in that respect. But I think, like you said, it 589 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,000 was kind of hard to sort through two through five for the Pacers. But 590 00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:37,239 I think top three is definitely that's certainly where he belongs. So there was 591 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,400 no uncertainty at number one, though, Andrew Binnen. It was Andrew Binham, 592 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,440 Okay, he was he and he and CJ. Miles were really close 593 00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:50,239 for that one spot. No, I mean it was it was Paul George. 594 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:52,760 We all had him at number one. He was in the number one 595 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,119 spot on all but one fan ballot, where he was number two to Oladipo, 596 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,920 which if you're going for that peak value, I guess there's some argument 597 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,559 there because I do think Oladipo's season was the best in the last decade of 598 00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:08,000 Indiana basketball. But George was the pretty obvious number one. I mean, 599 00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:15,480 just both for what he did before that devastating injury with Team USA and for 600 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,280 the ability to come back and play at an even higher level. His best 601 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,599 season didn't come in Indiana. It came in Oklahoma City, which is kind 602 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:29,239 of going to be weird to think about a decade from now, especially since 603 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,239 he was only there for two years. But you know, he had three 604 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,719 phenomenal years with the Pacers, and he was just I think what really helps 605 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,840 him. I think you're right that Victor Ladipo's best season in Indiana might is 606 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:45,000 probably better than Paul george best season in Indiana's efficiency was like kind of always 607 00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:49,039 borderline just it was never quite elite. But he has some really special playoff 608 00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:54,400 moments. Paul George seems like a different playoff pe like like that's he's that's 609 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,880 an actual person who was his big dunkover It was like seven years ago, 610 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,320 yesterday, the day before recorded Chris Anderson. Yeah, that's right back when 611 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,840 they played the Heat. And so he has some really special playoff moments, 612 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,920 which I think, which I think really helps his case. But he's he 613 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,320 has to be the universal number one I will since you don't really have to 614 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,880 debate how good he was in Indiana. I love that they traded him to 615 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,039 not the Lakers. That's why one. I think that's why if you're a 616 00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:22,679 team, you'd prefer your start to tell you that they want out rather than 617 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,679 let it ride to free agency. I understand there's certain players like Kevin Durrant 618 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,320 or Jannas Attenta Coupo where they're probably not going to give you that answer, 619 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,239 and you don't just trade those guys even if they declined to sign the Supermac's 620 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,800 extension. That wasn't a thing for Kevin Durant obviously, but they got real 621 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,079 value for him. So Bonus and Aladipo were both all stars now and we 622 00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,079 brutalized that trade at the time. I wrote about it you too so and 623 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,639 killed it. But I love that it seems like the Pacients were just like, 624 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,800 nah, we're not sending him to the Lakers. Maybe that had something 625 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,280 to do with they didn't want to rebuild, and that's fine too. Indiana 626 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,519 has always kind of been in this, you know, team that's franchise that 627 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:05,400 seems to value the consistent proximity to the playoffs. But I absolutely love that 628 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,199 there seemed to be a level of pettiness there where it's like, oh, 629 00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:08,119 he wants to go to Lakers, We're not sending him there, And then 630 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:12,480 they send in Oklahoma City and they end up getting good value and it proves 631 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,519 that, yeah, there will always be teams that are willing to take a 632 00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:16,079 risk on a guy who says he has one foot out the door. And 633 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:20,239 I think, look, Kawhi Leonard leaving Toronto hurts this theory. But Paul 634 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,239 George resigning and Okay, see, granted he asked out afterwards, but resigning 635 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:28,119 that contract in Okay see where then they were able to flip him for just 636 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,079 as good, if not better value, then they gave up for him. 637 00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:35,920 That's why I think if you're a team and your star is going to leave, 638 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,719 you want to know in advance you can try and get that a trade 639 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,880 gun and you don't necessarily need it to go to ANFI. Davis ended up 640 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,400 with the Lakers, and yes, their offer was probably better than anything anyone 641 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,840 else was offering. But I love just to Paul George Sagan Indy. I 642 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,559 love the way it ended because he didn't go to the team that he wanted 643 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:55,239 to be on, and then he ended up staying with that team in Oklahoma 644 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,559 City. And kudos to the Pacers were kind of going against the grain there. 645 00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:00,760 It could have it really could have not worked out. It could have 646 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:07,039 trapped them in unpleasant mediocrity, because they still might be trapped in mediocrity for 647 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:09,360 all we know, But for what all the deeps of bonus turned into since 648 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,440 they arrived just end up being a really great decision by Kevin purcharding company. 649 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,280 Well Hardwood Knox listeners, you heard it here first. Dan Favali is already 650 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,719 criticizing Jannis for not asking for a trade and telling the Bucks that he's going 651 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,320 to move on. Well, here's my thing is that Jannis is not leaving 652 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,920 Milwaukee. But that's I don't think he's going to either. You have some 653 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,159 honorable mentions to die, Yeah, we had very few, because shout out 654 00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:37,559 to Pacers fans for taking it seriously across the board and doing a good job 655 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:42,519 with the ballots. From from our perspective, at least eleventh, we had 656 00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:46,519 boy On Bogdanovich. He was a fairly close eleventh, as were Thaddeus Young 657 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:52,159 at twelve and Malcolm Brogden at thirteen. And then the distant honorable mentions where 658 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,639 Monte Ellis at fourteen, which surprised me. Fifteen was TJ. Warren, 659 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,480 sixteen was CJ. Miles, and tied with him was Jeff Tigue, which 660 00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:05,000 should not have should not have happened. But you know, we're gonna we're 661 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,880 gonna allow for that one since only seventeen players received votes. Here, he 662 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,960 these are just fans. Don't suck around. I respect it. No, 663 00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:17,199 Lavoy Allen's Salomon him. Yeah, Tyler hands Burrow was snubbed he wasn't just 664 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,840 letting everybody know he wasn't. I mean he he was a very Indiana player 665 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,239 though, just that that hard nosed mentality. Not if you ever watched him 666 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,360 in college, I don't think you ever would have predicted it. He became 667 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,079 like this enforcer goon in the NBA basically what he was. He was incredible 668 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:36,800 in college. Do you have anything else to add on this podcast or should 669 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,800 we put a bow on it? We should put a bow on it. 670 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,480 Uh, just want to remind everyone once more though, just rate, review 671 00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:45,280 and subscribe to us on iTunes wherever else we're getting your podcast. That's the 672 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,039 best way to help us out. And if this is your first time listening 673 00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:51,800 and you enjoyed it, we promise we will continue improving and putting out content 674 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,599 during this NBA hiatus and including when it comes back. We have some great 675 00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:00,360 other alternative content in store for you as well, in addition to also anduing 676 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,639 on with these decade rankings. When we come back, we'll be up to 677 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,920 the Los Angeles Clippers. It's something about getting to the first LA team that 678 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,280 makes me feel like we're hitting a milestone because you can see the halfway point 679 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:14,800 coming, so they will be next. We look forward to talking to you 680 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,199 then. And until next time I leave, everybody will a shout out to 681 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,920 the One, the Only, the Man, myth legend, Dante Jones. 682 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,519 Nobody builds five G like Verizon builds five G because we're the engineers who built 683 00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:37,800 the most reliable network in America. And the more you do with five G, 684 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:40,679 the more building it right matters, the more your network matters, The 685 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:45,880 more Verizon engineers going the extra mile matters. It's us pushing us. It's 686 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:52,360 Verizon versus Verizon. Five G built right from America's most reliable network, most 687 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,320 reliable based on rankings from Metrics second half twenty twenty Uster report at three Mobile 688 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,559 networks. Results may vary. Award is not an endorsement