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Knox listeners, I am Danza Valley coming at you with Adam Frommel, the
founder and editor in chief of NBA math as well as an editor for Bleacher
Report. The squeaking you hear in the background, as ever, is a
puppy. I have Wade today named after Deadpool for anyone who cares. We
are carrying on with our decade ranking series. We're getting into the top ten
players for the Indiana Pacers since the two ten eleventh season as we carry on,
before we carry on, excuse me, I'm losing my train of thought
here. I'm gonna leave this in. I thought about just canceling this,
but I think I'm just gonna leave it in. I just want to quickly
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this is your first time listening because you're choppering in for a single team pod.
We really do a great job here of blending stats and personality and anecdotal
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Stitcher, Google Play, all those great places before we hop into though,
into these Indiana Pacers rankings, though, Adam, we got to ask,
how the hell are you doing? Doing pretty well? I'm very pleased
that you're dog named Wade after Deadpool has a Chimmy Chonga squeaky toy that's very
on brand. Thoor has a squeaky hammer as well, so as he should.
We're not playing favorites. Just Wade can't even pick that one up.
I've heard he's not worthy that I could say. Maybe one day. The
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them again in just a minute after that unprofessional intro is now over, Adam,
do you want to take us through this? I'll give a brief reminder
for anyone who's just tuning in for the first time. We have forms out
on NBA Maths Twitter account, follow at MBA underscore Maths so you can participate
in these rankings. We come up with composite rankings, Adam, and I
do our own. Those are input as well as the voters who you guys
input and that gives us our composite ranking. So without further ado, Adam,
who checked in at number ten for the Indiana Pacers, Well, I
was really pleased with the Indiana Pacers voting in general, because this was the
first team of all the ones we've done so far that didn't seem to have
any trolling ballots. It seemed like everyone took it seriously. We had fewer
players in the honorable mentions, and we had eleven different players appear in the
top tens between the fan vote, me and you. So Thaddeus Young barely
missed out in the composite rankings because the ten spot went to Lance Stevens.
Definitely a polarizing player just because of that intense, antagonistic play style. I
think the enduring memory of his tenure in Indiana, really his two ten years
in Indiana is probably him blowing in Lebron James's ear. But he was an
irritant and he was good at it. He wasn't an efficient scorer, but
he reached some havoc on defense, and I think overall like it is hard
to view his time in Indiana as anything other than a positive. I kind
of consider him more spectacle than substance. That being said, did provide some
playmaking. Like you said, was a defensive irritant. I actually put him
higher on my ballot because I didn't want to get killed for putting him too
low. And the fact that he checked in at number ten makes you wish
that I put him at number ten instead of number eight. But he were
actually the highest on him. You had him at eight, the fans had
him at nine, and I had him down at number ten. Wow.
Well, I look, I'm gonna be honest, I would put I'd probably
put him down a number nine or ten. Now, so take this with
a grain of salt. But I agree with everything you said. It's just
to me, I've always questioned whether what he did actually made this huge impact
or was it just sort of this become this law in the real time lower
where you know he was. I guess he was a defensive irritant, but
how effective was he actually? Still you look at his numbers, you look
at the way he played. He did provide some extra ball handling for them,
and like you said, at least gave them something of not just an
irritant, but maybe a little bit of an identity on the perimeter defensively,
even if he was more spectacle than substance, you can use spectacle to your
advantage sometimes, and I certainly do think that that helped him in certain matchup.
So he does deserve to be on this list. Just not a player
that I've ever liked on or off the court. Yeah, just solely the
twenty thirteen fourteen season, the last of his first stint with the Pacers,
that got him onto the ballot for me, even if he hadn't played any
other games. You know, thirteen point eight point seven point two rebounds,
four point six assist per game while playing that pesky defense. Someone had to
fill that role. Someone had to take those shots, and the fact that
he could do that's semi efficiently. That season, Wall serving as a playmaker,
Wall becoming one of the better rebounding guards we'd seen during that time period
in NBA history. All of those are our testaments to the import that he
had in Indiana, even if it was partially mythologized. The contract he gets
from the Charlotte Hornets, is that going to be an episode eleven of the
Last Dants. Do you think maybe or will that be in episode twelve?
I hope it's just in one of them. We need it did. Yeah,
I mean not to get too far down on this tangent, but it
still feels weird to me that that that whole documentary ended without any mention of
the Wizards, or the or the Hornets or really anything anti Michael Jordan related.
But well, yeah, that's the price to approve it was fun.
I don't mean that we should winners get to write history, right, and
this isn't a shitting on the Last Dance podcast? So can you take us
too? We have no number nine because we have a tie at number two,
So we'll go over Darren Collison. First, he was tenth on the
fan ballot. He was eighth for me, and he was seventh for you.
Spoiler alert. Dan will not be the highest on every single member of
the Indiana Pacers, but that is two in a row. I think I
valued his theirness in two different stints, played for two different versions of a
pretty good Indiana Pacers team. I mean the first year in his first stint,
they were bad, but then really good the second year. And he
always just you know, we talk about he's sort of like the Patrick Beverley
of offense, where he can do so many different things while fitting next to
everybody, Like he can shoot threes off a catch. There was a little
bit of dribble penetration to his game and his prime he could hit some stuff
off off the dribble, and so to have that at point guard, you
know, never going to be the best playmaker, never going to be a
really good defender. But the way that Patrick Beverley fits a team on defense,
I feel like he does the same but on offense. And that's why
I really valued him for Indiana. Obviously, the off court stuff, if
you the domestic violence charges, if you wanted to drag him down for that,
I'm not going to harp. I mean, I'm not going to hold
that against anybody. But really, looking at the basketball, I think he
was pretty valuable to two different quality versions of the Pacers over this decade.
I really like that Beverly comparison. It's not something I've I've thought about before
just now, but it makes you said vomit when I said it. No,
it just was I was looking at some numbers and just kind of snapped
to attention there because I wasn't expecting that, But it makes sense. You
know, I have long viewed him as as one of those ideal offensive role
players, you know, a super efficient jump shooter. He led the NBA
with forty six point eight percent three point shooting during the twenty seventeen eighteen season
with the Pacers. But beyond that, it seems like he's one of those
guys who doesn't make bad plays on the court. We should say as as
you did. I don't mean to laugh at that. That was just well,
well time jabbing him there deserved him. Yeah, I needed yeah,
I needed to clarify there. But yeah, I mean, he doesn't make
mistakes with the ball. He doesn't take bad shots. Just we don't see
point guards come around who are who are this accurate from long range and can
play make without turning the ball over. That's a rare combination and it's valuable,
and it kind of makes me regret not having him even higher, especially
with that theirness factor coming into the equation because he is sixthen minutes played over
the last decade. He look and you know, he gets bonus points because
Basketball Reference doesn't separate stints when you're looking at combined stats for teams, and
so it just says that from two eleven to twenty nineteen, he's he's with
a pacer. Right. Look, his airness could have technically gone up a
little bit too, had he not retired over the summer, maybe they still
pivot into Malcolm Brogden since they had so many free agents. But yeah,
the arness that definitely helps him there as well. Well, he's tied with
a player who does not benefit from theirness. He's tenth and minutes played for
the decade, and that's Danny Granger. He was a tough one to rank,
as is so often the case with these guys who who peeked before the
decade in question. So you know, his Indiana tenure dated back to two
thousand and five, but we're only looking at twenty ten eleven through the end
of his time in Indiana, which came midway through thirteen fourteen. So the
best season was that first one of the decade, where it was already clear
that he was declining from the all star caliber do everything score, and that
made him tough to rank because it's not really that peak version that we're remembering.
So the fans still had him up at fourth. I wonder if there
was a little bit of confusion about which seasons that we were considering there,
because I don't think that there's much of an objective case to have him that
high. I actually did not have him in my top ten. I considered
him, but there are so many players that played for so much time in
Indiana over this decade or had similar peak seasons, and you did have him
in a tie for your tenth spot with Daddy is Young. Yeah, shout
out to Daddy is Young. For all he did defensively for the Pacers.
I know that he was this offensive liability to come play off time, but
he really we give credit to Miles Tner and he deserves it, but he
really shaped that defensive identity just everywhere. One of the best help defend in
the NBA. So for Danny Granger, it does seem I don't know if
he was declining so much as the look the left knee injury stuff that torpedoed
his career obviously, but before that, it just felt like the Pacers were
kind of shifting to more of a committee approach in the two really good seasons
he had. You know, you have Darren Collison there, Roy Hibbert's taking
on more of a role. You're it wasn't clear that they were grooming Paul
George for stardom, but he went from playing twenty minutes a game to the
almost thirty. You had David West there, you had George Hill there,
and so he just put together still two really good seasons. But it wouldn't
shock me if people just not even got the seasons mixed up. You just
remember that Danny Green averaged almost twenty six points per game with two thousand and
eight two thousand nine, hitting forty percent of his threes, and you're just
giving him credit for that. And then the next season two ten, which
two thousand ten kind of overlaps in this decade. Anyway, you're gonna remember,
do any Green average twenty four plus points a game while shooting pretty well
from three again? And Danny Granger was really good. If I said Green
at all, I apologize for the for the misstep that just rolls off and
talking, but I think he had two good enough seasons in this decade looking
at twenty two eleven and then the lockout campaign thereafter to make my top ten.
But I totally understand why you left him off. But this is just
a shout out to peak Danny Granger, who was an exceptional offensive basketball player.
Could you imagine had he never gotten injured if Paul George. I really
don't think Danny Granger's injury was part of Paul George's rise, at least not
to the to the point where had both of them stayed in Danny Granger remained
healthy, I don't think it would have prevented Paul George from becoming the player
that he did, and I would have loved to have seen the two of
them play together at close to their peaks. I think it would have hindered
him a little bit, just because Granger was such a ball dominant force during
his prime, that George might not have been allowed the bandwidth to experiment with
his offensive game like he did and really blossom, maybe filling more of a
niche offensive role than he does now. But I don't think it would have
prevented him from becoming a star. Fair enough, what part of anoxist?
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online your online wagering solution. We have another tie now that we're moving on
those yeahs and six, I think we have to approach these together because we're
like legally obligated to talk about these two players in conjunction with each other at
all times. And the first of them is Miles Turner, who was eighth
the fans, seventh for me, sixth for you. Yet again, you're
the highest one on one of the pacers, and of course he's tied with
Demonta Sabonis, who was six for both the fans and me and down at
ninth for you defense versus Offense, the more longevity verse the remarkable peak that
Sabonis has achieved this year. It's a clash in styles and and differing tenures
from two players who always seem linked together. Because Indiana can't decide which it
wants to commit to as of now, it's commit it to both. This
placement it's got if if Indie Cornross Caitlyn Cooper is listening, one of my
favorite writers and people to talk about, people to talk coops with on the
podcast, They're inextricably linked and I always have to ask her on the four
or five times she's come on about whether Indie's going to choose or who she
would pick, And so this is probably gonna drive her absolutely wild or crazy.
This is one of my favorite placements of anything so far. That they're
just tied in this because they're so inextricably linked that they just can't get any
separation. For this is This is probably a hot take at this point because
I'll fully admit that Sabonus is the better player than Turner right now, or
at least has had the better season. I really think that he's become overrated
because I don't know that he's someone that you can run an offense through for
stretches, and that combination of force and finesse is just really high quality.
But I feel like he kind of pigeon holds you to a certain type of
roster where if they were to change up the personnel around him, or maybe
things could get even a little bit iffier with the current personnel when you have
brogged in and a fully healthy Victor Oladipo and a T. J. Warren.
I don't know how well he fits if you're going to ask him to
play off the bomb or if you're not going to give him as many looks
against second units that he could lead on his own, and if you do
end up choosing him over Miles Turner, and perhaps they will, just because
I think Turner holds holds more trade value because his skill set is more scalable,
another team is going to view it is more translatable than sabonuses, even
though Sabonus right now, I'll admit, is the better player, and so
that's why I end up higher on Turner. Probably, I just still have
questions about what Sabonus can do to this team. Is he more of that
guy who's going to preserve your floor or raise your floor, and then your
ceiling is just always going to be a little bit lower than it could be.
Can he shoot more threes or shoot threes at all if you want to
call at that. What does it look like if he is a full time
center without Turner there? Defensively? And he might be a little bit underrated
defensively at this point, because I think people view him as this huge liability
and so what he can do for them on the glass and it feels like
he really has gotten a little bit better at moving laterally over the past two
seasons or seasons and a half, whatever you want to call it. And
Pacers fans going to be smarter than I am on the Pacers, So call
me out for whatever ship takes you're hearing here. That's just where I land
and why I ended up having him at ninth and where I'm sure he probably
ended up in the top four or five on some other people's ballots. I
don't really have much to add to the analysis. I just have a trivia
question and a production suggestion. Which do you want first? Give me the
production suggest I think I think the Hardwood Knox podcast needs a hot take sound.
I think as soon as you you just embark on one of those that
we just need some some sort of sound that you can add in, just
an indicator that what you're about to hear is is going to get spicy.
So if you have a suggestion for one for this podcast, throw it at
me now, Adam or tell me it just be like a sizzling sound,
like just something cooking on the grill. Listeners get at us at at Adam
me or the Hardwood Knox account at Hardwoodknox, I'm at namph Valley at a
v Ali at Pramo zero or nine, tell us what you want the hot
take sound to be. I may just pick one for this podcast and insert
it with the Zabonus take. I'm not even sure if it's that spicy though.
Do you think it is? And I'm not going to be like a
dick here, it's not that spicy. I thought it was going to be
spicier when you when you started to talk, but you justified it pretty well.
Yeah, I'm just I yeah, That's where I'm at. It's overratedness
is tough because it depends on where you're rating them. Overratedness, that's a
that's a new gonna be a new metric right there with theirness. But speaking
of spiciness, the trivia question, the twenty sixteen NBA Draft class contains a
lot of notable names. Pascal Siakam is where that spicy segue comes from,
Ben Simmons, Malcolm Brogden, Jamal Murray, Jalen Brown, Buddy Healed,
Brandon Ingram cars Leavert, Malik Beasley we can throw in? And Demontes Sabonis.
Where does Sabonis rank among that class and windshares thus far in their careers?
I'm gonna say he ranks fourth. He's actually up at third. Damn
it, He's third. So fifth is Jamal Murray at sixteen point one,
Brogden is sixteen point eight, Sabonis is twenty point six, Siakam is twenty
point seven, and Simmons is twenty four point four. Wow. Where does
Jalen Brown end up on that? Jaylen Brown is down in seventh at thirteen
point five, sandwiched between Yaka Peardle and Buddy Healed. What the hell is
Jako Peardle doing on there. I guess he played for some green. He's
always been EF fishing. He's been on good teams, and you know bigs
are typically favored in this metric. That's true. I wouldn't say he's always
been on good teams because the Spurs are awful. Moving on, though,
did you did you have any thoughts on Miles Turner being here? If you
had, maybe this is a question for you. If you had to pick
one, are you a Turner or a SI bonus guy. I'm still on
in a vacuum. I'm in favor of Sibonis because I think that he's just
a better all around player. I think there's more room for growth. I
think that his ability to facilitate, to power through players to score finesse a
developing jumper that isn't quite there yet. I think that he's the more malleable
player at this stage of his career, who is a better plug and play
option across the board. But I might still pick Turner just knowing who the
Pacers have on their roster. If we assume that Oladipo gets back to full
strength, if we assume that Brogden is their long term and we still have
t J. Warren. Where are the touches coming from. I would rather
have that dominant rim protector, shot blocker, defensive asset who hasn't really complained
about having fewer offensive touches. I think what hurts the Bonus's case too,
is his three point percentage dipped this year when his volume went up. I
just wonder what he'd be like in a situation if he told him to bomb
threes at a permanent clip of Jaren Jackson Junior or something. I think he
could end up being more valuable offensively. And because you have Sabonus there,
I don't think he's been given enough opportunity now to kind of see what he
can do from scratch, maybe in the post as they've gotten away from that.
I'm not entirely ruling out that they can work together. I would probably
lean towards no, just looking at how the Pacers are built now. But
they've they've proven that they can work defensively together just fine. It's the offense
that becomes a little bit wonky. Yeah, we speaking a defensive big man
though. Boy, here it goes. At number five. We have Roy
Hibbert, who was fifth for the Fans. He was fourth for me.
And he was fourth, and he was fifth for you, so we were
all pretty similar on him. The first thing I always think of with Hibbert
is just that he is one of those true testaments to how quickly the NBA
changed, Like it's amazing how fast we went from these defensively dominant pacers teams
that were challenging Lebron James's squads with Hibbert at the center of that. You
know, it just exemplifying the idea of verticality and challenging shots around the rim.
But the immobility lack of offensive contributions meant that he got phased out really
quickly. He went from he went from making the All Defensive first team in
twenty thirteen fourteen to basically being out of the league four years later after he
had washed out with the Lakers, Charlotte and Denver. It's not even that
he was on the All Defensive team in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen and then became
a liability against the Hawks defensively in that postseason. That's just a wild progression
and devolution of value. It's like, I don't even know what to make
of it. And that's why it was hard to place him because I think
you're you're still kind of pulled towards recency. And look, there's for most
of this decade he has not been considered an asset. He was looking at
just his time when the Lakers from twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen, plays in
other seasons, splits between Charlotte, six games in Denver, and then he's
out of the NBA. So he's been a negative asset to not in the
NBA more this decade than he's been actually on the court essentially, and that
makes him difficult to place. But I don't think that we can, as
you put it, ignore how valuable he was to the Pacers when they were
challenging those lebron led Miami Heat teams. You know that iconic block he had
on Carmelo Anthony in the twenty thirteen playoffs. He was a phenomenal rim protector.
It's just the NBA really pushed, like I don't even know what the
word. They styled him out of the league quickly, absolutely, And I
think this is one of those cases where looking at the progression of his on
off swings is really interesting because in twenty eleven, twelve plus four point eight
with him on the court compared to when he was off the court plus ten
point four swing in twenty twelve thirteen, plus six point eight the next season,
but then his final year in Indiana minus three point two with the Lakers,
minus fifteen point one, and then with the Hornets minus point five for
forty two games. Then a massive minus forty nine point one with the Nuggets
over a whopping eleven minutes. So let's throw that small sample out of the
window. But still, like, how quickly did the switch flip where he
was clearly an asset? And then the NBA had changed to the point that
no matter how much Indiana wanted to build that pack the paint funnel things towards
Hibbert defense, it just didn't work anymore. And what actually probably hurt him
more is his offense, because he was just never the most efficient offensive player
for a big not someone that you should have wanted to post up ever,
and then not really a guy that you looked at as probably just didn't really
have the foot speed or the finishing touched to be this really valued rim runner
off of screens, and without then a jump shot or anything resembling one from
beyond the arc. It makes it really difficult to keep him on the floor.
It wasn't just that he was mismatched defensively. It's that he's mismatched defensively
and then doesn't really give you any value on the offensive end. And so
look, I know he took long twos through throughout his career at a modest
frequency, I guess for his position, if we want to call it.
I don't know really how how efficient he was in those situations during his prime.
You know, he has some of these outlier seasons where, oh,
in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, he shot forty four percent on long twos,
which which is a good number. But you look at some of his
other pacer or seasons thirty two point five percent, thirty three point three percent,
then there's forty four point three percent, thirty six point eight percent.
It's sort of all over the place. And this inability to have a continuous
offensive value or consistent utility that probably pushed him out of a league just as
much, if not more so, than him being unable to hang with the
NBA's new wave of defense. Totally agree with all of that. I mean,
I think it's I think it's important that we finished this Hibbert section just
by saying that none of this is truly a knock against what he provided to
the Pacers during his peak years. It's just it's an example of how much
the NBA shifted and how quickly it shifted, rather than an indictment of his
skills, because he came up playing at Georgetown and his early years in the
NBA with the idea of filling this role, which he mastered. He was
really good in that role, but then that role quickly became devalued. And
that's that's not an indication that he wasn't a valuable player, or he wasn't
a good basketball player, or he wasn't deserving of a top five spot in
these rankings, just that things changed. Now. I'm totally with you there.
And look, like I said, one of my favorite live action photos
is Roy Hibberts, Blacker and Carmelo Anthony. That's just one of the most
iconic photos definitely of the decade, but for me in memory, so just
and that's really sort of this snapshot of how important he was to that to
that Pacers team. Yep, who do we have at number four? And
number four? We have the guy who is third and minutes played for the
Pacers over this decade, and that is George Hill. George Hill was down
at seven for the fans, he was up at three for me, and
he was number two for you. So I'll let you take this one away
as the clear high man on George Hill. Look, George Hill is just
like this game manager on steroids, can just do everything. And he was
so good defensively with the Pacers too. I feel like that gets overlooked.
And for someone who plays the point guard position to be there and be that
effective of a presence on defense, you have to really love it. And
then you look at all the different types of talent he played alongside during his
few years in Indiana and someone who you know, I'm not gonna really like,
say, don't want to use that Patrick Beverley of Universal Fit on offense
again with him, but he is kind of that guy and like, yeah,
you know, he can dribble a little bit and he can get into
the lane. But his shooting was always just top shelf and could play off
of anybody fit in really any type of offense. And I think with the
exception of twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, his shooting has been so good, you've
really seen it. Just look at how you know, when he could stay
healthy just moving from the Pacers to the Utah Jazz. Look at how valuably
he was there. Look at what he's done for the Bucks this season.
And that's just sort of this compactive view of what he did for the Pacers
on offense is just never had to worry about certain touches or how to use
him functionally. He could just fill those gaps, fit in around everyone else,
was it, whether it was David West, whether it was Paul George,
whoever. And to have that type of floor spacing from him where he
could hit off the catch. When the Pacers did that was a big part
of their success in those I call it success, even though they weren't necessarily
successful against Lebron led heat, but that's why. That's a big part of
the reason why they were there every year. And so I had no about
putting him at number two for the Pacers. And look, he was top
three in minutes and if you look at just some of you know he was.
He was second in value over replacement player as well, And so I
don't think it's too much of a reach to put him second. But you
did say that he I was one the highest on him, which is apparently
a prevailing theme in this podcast. And two, it does seem like he
had the highest variants in his finishes he did of every player he did.
I think the one I guess the two things that you really left out there
are his shoulders, because that's one of the things I associate most with with
George Hill is just the massive Dwight Howard of point guard shoulders. And I
mean that's fair, right, Like, isn't that one of the first things
ever actually thought about that? But now that you're saying it, I can't
think about it. It's just his jerseys do not look like they fit.
But I've always just I've thought of George Hills just a winner. You know,
some guys just seem to be winners. They always played for good teams.
They they're fine filling whatever role they need to fill. They're able to
contribute in so much any various ways that just aid the winning cause. Was
he ever really a star? I don't think so. But you know,
as as you said, the malleability on offense, the optionality on defense,
just the ability to fill so many different roles and to fill them all at
such a high level, combined with the bairness, I strongly considered him for
my second spot as well. I really struggled with with two through five.
Honestly, with the Pacers, they were all kind of clumped together for me,
all right. And so twenty fourteen, fifteen Georgia was on one.
And so that's the year the Paciers weren't very good because Paul George that's the
year that he only played in six regular season games. But like that's not
something he's not even star dependent. Like he was someone who could put up
semi efficient numbers on his own, and that was just the good years.
The Pacers leading scorer that season by a fairly substantial margin, CJ. Miles
was number two at thirteen point five points per game. So you look at
what George George Hill can do being able to manage an offense on his own,
but then also being the quintessential superstar accessory. I really value that in
players. And so no, he was never a star, but he is
a superstar role player as high end as they get. When he was in
his prime, and look even now, he's just been so useful to the
Milwaukee Bucks. The NBA's leader in three point shooting as as we record this,
that season is clearly not up for debate in this but I think it
just shows, you know, I use that word scalability, but it shows
how universally translatable he was, not just from team to team, but from
lineup to line up, from team makeup to team makeup, to style to
style system proof if you could call him that, yeah, I think that's
fair. I was trying to see if there was any objective evidence from my
winner claim. And you know, the Basketball Reference opponents finders are pretty interesting
for players. I if any listeners have not checked those out, you should,
because they show you the head to head record that a player has against
everyone he's ever faced. So Hill does have a losing record against quite a
few people that he's faced a lot, largely from more of the dynastic or
championship caliber teams that he's had to play. But one really interesting thing,
and this is just totally tangential and probably not important at all, but he
is undefeated against one, two, three, four, five, six,
six different players that he's faced at least ten times. And they're Corey mcgetty,
Quincy Acy, Zach Lavine, Chris Kaman, Jordan Clarkson, and he's
somehow twelve and zero against Anthony Davis's teams, which I just I thought it
was interesting and weird. Do you think was his stay that's a sign that
the Bucks are going to beat the Lakers this year if they play. That's
an excellent point and very interesting. That's why they sign Way to come up
with that one on the fly. But also, do you think he was
held back at all in the rankings because by some people, at least because
of the Kawhi Leonard trade. No, I don't think so. I don't
think that's not It doesn't seem like that's a very painful memory for Pacers fans.
No, I think he ingratiated himself to that fan base throughout his time
there to the point that that's not really relevant anymore. That's I'm just I'm
curious because I don't even when you think about you know, we even talked
about how the Hawks should regret getting Trey Young and a pick for like Luca
don Jich and you to play the hot takes sound again there, But I'm
just saying, like, we don't we never think about that with George Hill
and Kawhi Leonard, and I don't know if that's because people still think they
can't. Leonard was not a system player in San Antonio, so but I
think that's a testament to just how good Paul George became. Not Paul George,
maybe it is a little bit, but how good George Hill became.
They both have George on their names. It's an understandable slip there. I
probably called Danny Granger Danny Green at one point, calling George George. You
did once. I was gonna let it go, but you called yourself out,
so it worked out. I will always call myself out. Who are
we at with number three? At number three, we have the one and
only Victor Oladipo. The fans had him up at number two, which I
get. I had him at number five, You had him at number four.
I did not give him any credit for his singing, even if he
might deserve it, but he was just he was hard to rank because the
one year that he just exploded with Indiana twenty seventeen eighteen, that was probably
the best season they've had from any player this decade. Maybe did it?
Was it better than anything that Paul George did. It's at least in the
conversation. But then you know, only thirty six games in twenty eighteen nineteen,
only thirteen games at a far lower level this this current season. It
was tough because he just he doesn't register on the bairness front, only seventeenth
and minutes played for the decade. So it's it's the peak versus the longevity
argue argument all all boiled down into one player here. Yeah, look,
if you're just going strictly by talent, he's number two, without question.
A sample size has the matter, And I'm wondering if people are misremembering that
he wasn't It wasn't that he wasn't good before he was injured last year,
but he wasn't super efficient, like he wasn't at that twenty seventeen twenty eighteen
level. And maybe that was because he was trying to play through that right
quad injury in the first first place. But when you're looking at sheer contributions,
I do think number two is I even think number three is a little
bit lofty. I put him at number four myself just because of that peak,
and you were even a little bit lower. You had him at number
five. You said, so, look I get it just looking at his
talent in a bubble, but the availability just really hasn't been there. And
again twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, there was that clear drop off from twenty
seventeen twenty eighteen, So it's not like he's had this super sustained peak.
And I do think that he's way better than he was with the Thunder or
the Orlando Magic. I don't think that that's up for debate. I think
we've shown that he can be a legitimate star in this league. But we
need to see Canny one stay healthy or is this you know this right quad
injury? How's he going to do coming back from it? He was perking
up offensively a little bit and looked really good on defense during the time he
played in Indy this year. Just still so many questions though about the sustainability
of his apex, not whether he's good or not of his apex. And
so I number two, number three, like that, see him's pretty high.
I even thought I was a little too high on him, putting him
at number four. So David West is second in the composite rankings. He
was I did have him second, You and the fans both had him third,
and I'm just I'm revealing that now just because I do think it's interesting
to debate who should have been second, because it just depends on what you
vary so much what you value most, you know, So second, second
through fifth was was West, Oladipo, Hill, and Hibbert. Oladipo was
the only like true star of those four players during their times in Indiana.
If you want to say David West was a star in New Orleans, I
think that's valid, but he didn't play as much. He's played at a
lower level for part of his tenure. So it is interesting, like it's
it's harder to acquire a player of Oladipo's caliber in the NBA. So the
fact that Indiana had access to a player like that, a guy who could
totally take over on offense, who demonstrated the ability to not just maintain his
performance, but elevate his performance and some of the biggest moments, and still
contribute with effective, with physical, with intense defense at all times. I
do understand placing him in those second and third spots, even if there isn't
necessarily an objective argument for it, if only because Indiana's options for that second
spot are limited, you know, like George Hill is a fine choice I
considered putting in there. I have David West there, but both of those
are guys who filled smaller, less important roles, and there are there are
only three players in the last decade for Indiana who have been able to shoulder
that star Burton and it's it's Granger, It's Paul George, and it's it's
Victor Oladipot. So even if I had him at fifth, I do understand
elevating him. My one counter argument to all that is he never died as
her blonde like like George Hill did. That's true, So I just that's
my shoulders are smaller. That's true. George Hill has the shoulders the Dwight
Howard shoulders, and he had blonde hair. That that garnered that reaction from
Popovitch. Do you remember that game where Greg Popovitch was like stroking his own
hair to make fun of George hills bleached hair. I one of my favorite
moments in recent memory. I definitely maybe I'm being too bullish then on saying
that all the people shouldn't be that high, but the theirness it's just so
low to me, and that there are still so many question marks subscribed to
what he's done in Indiana, clearly important to what they're doing offensively, particularly
if he wants a Bonus and Turner to work together on that end of the
floor. I just have a hard time saying that he deserves to be that
high ahead of David West and George Hill. Speak of David West, though
you said, who was it number two? Number three on minds? Did
he ever miss a long two pointer? Probably not. He shot about fifty
percent on long two's ninetieth percent tile over that time while in Indiana those three
seasons, And was that this is a trivia question for you. Is David
West the biggest free agent signing in Indiana Pacers history? I mean probably,
So I'm trying to think if I'm missing anyone, unless you don't think you
are. Unless all there, all their stars have been homegrown or acquired via
trade, unless you're like super High and Bollion, Magdanovitch or something. I
don't. I don't know, Yeah, I don't. I don't think anyone
would. I also think that David West, just probably maybe maybe he or
Lance Stevenson would be the guy I would never want to play from this last
decade of Indiana basketball, because you know, West was just this physical force
on both ends. You know, he was a great defender who prided himself
on taking those bruising matchups, but he doled out some punishment on offense too.
I think the play I associate most with him is just kind of backing
down a defender and just throwing his shoulder into him. I feel like if
you played David West during his peak years with New Orleans or Indiana, you
were going to emerge with a Bruce Sternham, for sure. I don't disagree
with you. He just threw his weight around everywhere and just seemed like a
super strong guy. I always viewed him as sort of this culture setter,
but given what happened to the I think it was that was that the twenty
thirteen twenty fourteen Indiana Pacers. Maybe I gave him too much credit to that,
but also seems like someone who kind of that Thaddeus young guy who could
be really valuable but behind the scenes in that capacity. But perhaps I'm overvaluing
him and in that respect. But I think, like you said, it
was kind of hard to sort through two through five for the Pacers. But
I think top three is definitely that's certainly where he belongs. So there was
no uncertainty at number one, though, Andrew Binnen. It was Andrew Binham,
Okay, he was he and he and CJ. Miles were really close
for that one spot. No, I mean it was it was Paul George.
We all had him at number one. He was in the number one
spot on all but one fan ballot, where he was number two to Oladipo,
which if you're going for that peak value, I guess there's some argument
there because I do think Oladipo's season was the best in the last decade of
Indiana basketball. But George was the pretty obvious number one. I mean,
just both for what he did before that devastating injury with Team USA and for
the ability to come back and play at an even higher level. His best
season didn't come in Indiana. It came in Oklahoma City, which is kind
of going to be weird to think about a decade from now, especially since
he was only there for two years. But you know, he had three
phenomenal years with the Pacers, and he was just I think what really helps
him. I think you're right that Victor Ladipo's best season in Indiana might is
probably better than Paul george best season in Indiana's efficiency was like kind of always
borderline just it was never quite elite. But he has some really special playoff
moments. Paul George seems like a different playoff pe like like that's he's that's
an actual person who was his big dunkover It was like seven years ago,
yesterday, the day before recorded Chris Anderson. Yeah, that's right back when
they played the Heat. And so he has some really special playoff moments,
which I think, which I think really helps his case. But he's he
has to be the universal number one I will since you don't really have to
debate how good he was in Indiana. I love that they traded him to
not the Lakers. That's why one. I think that's why if you're a
team, you'd prefer your start to tell you that they want out rather than
let it ride to free agency. I understand there's certain players like Kevin Durrant
or Jannas Attenta Coupo where they're probably not going to give you that answer,
and you don't just trade those guys even if they declined to sign the Supermac's
extension. That wasn't a thing for Kevin Durant obviously, but they got real
value for him. So Bonus and Aladipo were both all stars now and we
brutalized that trade at the time. I wrote about it you too so and
killed it. But I love that it seems like the Pacients were just like,
nah, we're not sending him to the Lakers. Maybe that had something
to do with they didn't want to rebuild, and that's fine too. Indiana
has always kind of been in this, you know, team that's franchise that
seems to value the consistent proximity to the playoffs. But I absolutely love that
there seemed to be a level of pettiness there where it's like, oh,
he wants to go to Lakers, We're not sending him there, And then
they send in Oklahoma City and they end up getting good value and it proves
that, yeah, there will always be teams that are willing to take a
risk on a guy who says he has one foot out the door. And
I think, look, Kawhi Leonard leaving Toronto hurts this theory. But Paul
George resigning and Okay, see, granted he asked out afterwards, but resigning
that contract in Okay see where then they were able to flip him for just
as good, if not better value, then they gave up for him.
That's why I think if you're a team and your star is going to leave,
you want to know in advance you can try and get that a trade
gun and you don't necessarily need it to go to ANFI. Davis ended up
with the Lakers, and yes, their offer was probably better than anything anyone
else was offering. But I love just to Paul George Sagan Indy. I
love the way it ended because he didn't go to the team that he wanted
to be on, and then he ended up staying with that team in Oklahoma
City. And kudos to the Pacers were kind of going against the grain there.
It could have it really could have not worked out. It could have
trapped them in unpleasant mediocrity, because they still might be trapped in mediocrity for
all we know, But for what all the deeps of bonus turned into since
they arrived just end up being a really great decision by Kevin purcharding company.
Well Hardwood Knox listeners, you heard it here first. Dan Favali is already
criticizing Jannis for not asking for a trade and telling the Bucks that he's going
to move on. Well, here's my thing is that Jannis is not leaving
Milwaukee. But that's I don't think he's going to either. You have some
honorable mentions to die, Yeah, we had very few, because shout out
to Pacers fans for taking it seriously across the board and doing a good job
with the ballots. From from our perspective, at least eleventh, we had
boy On Bogdanovich. He was a fairly close eleventh, as were Thaddeus Young
at twelve and Malcolm Brogden at thirteen. And then the distant honorable mentions where
Monte Ellis at fourteen, which surprised me. Fifteen was TJ. Warren,
sixteen was CJ. Miles, and tied with him was Jeff Tigue, which
should not have should not have happened. But you know, we're gonna we're
gonna allow for that one since only seventeen players received votes. Here, he
these are just fans. Don't suck around. I respect it. No,
Lavoy Allen's Salomon him. Yeah, Tyler hands Burrow was snubbed he wasn't just
letting everybody know he wasn't. I mean he he was a very Indiana player
though, just that that hard nosed mentality. Not if you ever watched him
in college, I don't think you ever would have predicted it. He became
like this enforcer goon in the NBA basically what he was. He was incredible
in college. Do you have anything else to add on this podcast or should
we put a bow on it? We should put a bow on it.
Uh, just want to remind everyone once more though, just rate, review
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and you enjoyed it, we promise we will continue improving and putting out content
during this NBA hiatus and including when it comes back. We have some great
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then. And until next time I leave, everybody will a shout out to
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