What is poppin Harvarnos list, there's I Am Damn for Valley coming at you
with a pre podcast intro because we have Caitlyn Cooper at C two Underscore Cooper
as always follow her on Twitter from Indie corn Rows. On the podcast,
I did an intro with her, but while we were recording mid podcast,
Nate Jorkin got fired, and so while there was going to be other stuff
attached to this podcast, and also this podcast was not going to be released
on a random Wednesday afternoon, I decided it was best to just push it
out, but also wanted to give you a note that we were reacting in
real time. She was kind enough to stay on after the news broke,
so we discussed that, discuss a bunch about the Pacers future, which even
if you're not a fan of the Pacers, they are one of the most
fascinating teams heading into the off season now, not just because they have the
coaching that you can see they have the potential to be really good if if
they're healthy. She is great as always, just wanted to throw you that
note. Let's get to the podcast now, though, with Kaitlyn Cooper from
Indie Cornrows, What is track Lackey in Hardwood NOx listeners, I am Damp
Valley coming at you without my fan tabulous co host Adam frommel I am,
however, super excited as always to be joined by a fantabulous guest and friend
of the Hardwood Knox podcast, Kaitlyn Cooper. She covers the Indiana Pacers for
Indie corn Rows at sp Nation. Follow her on Twitter if you do not
already at C two underscore Cooper, Kaitlyn, how are you doing. I'm
doing well. I'm happy to be back on here and talking about the Pacers
again. It's been a minute. Yeah. So I have a rule that
I try not to bother guests who are not on the same payrolls me more
than twice a year. And so, as all this was unfurling with the
Pacers over like the past few months, towards the end of the season,
I was like trying to time it right. I was like, you know,
I'm always going to ask her to come on, like before the season
to sort of analyze everything that happened, But there was such like a shit
storm happening in India. I had to resist not trying to get you to
come on for an extra appearance, because again, I don't like, you
know, having people on more than twice a year. I try to be
respectful of their time in that way, and I can imagine that that was
a pretty hectic closing kick for you. Yeah, hectics one way to put
it. I mean, I think it's probably better that you have me on
now because it seems like some of the fog is cleared. Like I just
I do power rankings of parts of the NBA season that I enjoy covering,
and pretty much everything that's happened with the Pacers over like the last month is
ranking in like the deep five hundreds, like rumors, sorting through rumors,
locker room strife is all way down there. So well, as usual,
I've brought you on to talk about only Sabonis and Miles Turner trade packages and
so oh great great, So you mean my following will be sliced in half
by the time this podcast. My first question, though, is just how
many years did this Pacer season shave off your life? Just between the injuries,
it being a truncated season, the coaching stuff with Date Jorkan, the
the way that it seemed like, you know, you were pretty critical of
their defense. But there's just so many moving parts in this Pacer season that
even from someone watching Afar, it felt absolutely absurd, right. I mean,
I guess the best way I could put it is I've lost track of
how many times I've posted my sad Jeff Tige picture. It is. It's
a lot of times. But I mean, in all honesty, it feels
like in the last calendar year, even going back to last season that I've
covered, I don't know how many Pacer teams, because I mean, you
look at it, and when Victor was out with the injury, they were
starting Jeremy Lamb and then Victor comes back and kind of a reduced state.
Then they go into the bubble. They don't have Sabonis, but Bubble Warren
kind of happens. Then they come back to start this season and it seems
like, oh, the actual starting lineup is going to be there, and
you know, we were so innocent back then, And then for four games
later, TJ. Warrens hurt and that kind of reorients how you see the
team. Then not long after that, they've traded Victor and then they just
have no wings because they have Karris, but Carris can't play and then you're
adjusting to Carris being in the lineup, and then like the last month,
it just seemed like NonStop upheaval. So from a reporting standpoint, so even
for me, it's hard to wrap my head around how many different teams I've
written and talked about. Yeah, and I know part of this is because
the world has imploded. But if you were to tell me that it was
only two seasons ago that like that Young and Bogey were on this team,
I wouldn't believe you, because it feels like a lot longer in Pacers years.
Yeah. No, I definitely does. And some of that I even
have to keep track of because just trying to match this defense against prior defense,
especially as it pertains of Sabonus, it's like, well, they didn't
actually have those guys last year, but it kind of seems like they did.
All of it's blending together. I do know that you're not like the
that you don't enjoy rumors that much. But I have to ask you about
the Nate York and stuff. Mostly where do you land on it? Because
there's you know, there's smoke, there's fire, and then there's the raging
inferno that this rumor mill became and I don't think at the end of the
season Kevin Pritchard less than ring endorsement. I think we could call it of
Nate just coupled with all the reporting, do you land on one side of
the fence or the other on what the Pacers should do with him? Or
are you more like just hurry up and get to your resolution whatever it is,
so that you can move on as an organization. Right, So I
think for me, like, especially in the aftermath of that press conference,
like even when the initial reporting came out, the fact that the Pacers didn't
make any effort to come out and really squash that stuff, with the exception
of you know, TJ. Warren putting some tweets out about indicating that he
didn't request a trade, but like the main nuts and bolts of like the
human management stuff, they didn't come out and deny any of that. And
then in the press conference, the fact that they still haven't made a decision
yet and also didn't deny that the human management in micromanaging existed, I feel
kind of tells you everything you need to know to a certain extent, And
because a lot of what's being reported from various outlets. Also seems like this
isn't just a disgruntled player, at least that's not my read on it.
I mean, you're hearing stuff about interactions with staff and assistant coaching and some
of the challenges they had even building the assistant coaching staff and whether they're going
to be I mean, just from an outsider's perspective, after some of that
reporting comes out, are you going to be able to find upgrades for an
assistant coaching staff? I mean, is that a job that people are gonna
want to take. I don't know, maybe it is, but I mean
you look back to I mean, I always refer to it as last summer,
but last offseason, and through reporting, there was indicators that in addition
to modernizing the offense, they wanted a coach who was going to come in
and be a modern communicator and to hear, like one quote in particular sticks
out for me from Kevin Pritchard. He says, quote, I have a
young coach who is really talented in x as and os and he has to
get better at human management. So to hear a year later that that didn't
happen, that feels like a bit of a failure and then on the flip
side, like I write from more of the x as and o's perspective,
and they're talking about wanting to sit down and meet with him and thinking and
hoping that he'll be self reflective on things that he can get better at.
But was he self reflective and what he was doing just from the XS and
O standpoint, Like you look at that playing game against the Wizards. I
mean, the Pacers got wrecked by the Wizards four times, and while they
did make some adjustments, I mean I wrote about it. People can look
at the article I wrote about their junk defenses and what they looked like.
The third game, they played a lot of triangle two, box in one
and zone and it didn't go well. But overall, the common thread uniting
all of those games together was we're still going over on every single screen and
we will not duck under on Russell Westbrook and try to allow him to beat
us as a shooter. So to come out and do that in the playing
game again, Like, yes, it mattered that you didn't have TJ.
Warren, It mattered that Carris Lavert was in health and safety protocols, and
it mattered that Miles Turner was out. That's three starters who all provide unique
skill sets, but to come out with the exact same approach was just an
excusable on a certain front to me. I mean, I don't understand why
you couldn't at least duck under a screen. Do I think that they were
going to win that game? Do I? Did I expect them to?
Did I think they're going to be successful in a first plan playoff series against
the Sixers, especially without the guys that I just mentioned. No, But
that just shows a little bit of inflexibility there. So at what point do
you feel comfortable expecting him to kind of be his exact opposite if you know
what I mean, Like, if you get into this setting again next year,
you're going to be happy that you sat with it. I mean,
only they can really answer that, because they're the ones having direct contact with
him. But I wasn't thrilled from the standpoint that he coached this team as
the Raptors pretty much from day one, and I wrote celebratory of many of
the things that he incorporated offensively from Nick Nurse that I thought worked well for
the Pacers. But I don't really understand the approach of defensively copying and pasting
that on a roster that it didn't really seem to fit on, and that
war on as the season progress, So I would land toward it's probably time
to make a change, But that makes me feel icky, like I don't
like advocating for people to not have a job. And I suppose, like
maybe to give him the benefit of the doubt, if he had a full
training camp and the roster was healthy and you really had time, Like in
his defense, this wasn't a great season to incorporate trying to play and shape
shift through this many different types of defense. You're not having practices, You
had a shortened off season for guys to get conditioned to play this sort of
aggressive scheme. So I'm not sure that that worked in his favor, but
I think there's a lot of negatives working against him for sure. On quick
aside there, I can't I think I can't remember you wrote it or tweeted
it, but you said something like they actually went under one of the screens
on Russell Westbrook in one of the games against the Wizards, And I audibly
laughed when you tweeted or wrote that, because it was clear how ridiculous.
She thought it was that they weren't doing things like that. I'd be the
thing that seems to be working against him because from my perspective, I think,
Okay, it's a first year coach and there is a different an element
to, you know, having to manage players as opposed to just dealing with
x's and o's and other sort of stratagems. But when you see the reporting
about like how little background work apparently went into you know, you know,
like clearing him. When you look at there might have been problems when he
was with the Raptors, this isn't even just a Pacers specific situation. That's
what really seems to be damning. Where from Afar, I'd be like,
it might just be time to move on at this point, because I don't
know if this is an issue of a learning curve or just that he's forever
going to clash with people because of his type of management style, right,
And I mean, just to show the other side, I believe Kevin Pritchard
mentioned in the postgame pressor that they did talk to up to fifteen I don't
remember the exact number. I mean, it seemed like he was shooting that
down a little bit, and Nick Nurse did say something along the lines like
he answered that and went kind of full fake news and talked about clickbait and
then said that what happened with the Raptors was hundred percent false. And obviously
I'm not involved in any of those situations. But the one thing that I
do look at as Scott Agnes, if people want to read it, it's
really good about the Pacers moving on from dan Burke. He had a little
bit of reporting in there that the Pacers had trouble building the assistant staff because
of Nate Bjorker, and so that tends that leads me to believe that there
were some issues going on beforehand. Otherwise, why were you having issues building
the assistant coaching staff? You know what I mean? Like, I'm not
saying that Indiana is a glamour market necessarily, but there's only so many coaching
jobs in the NBA, and if you were having trouble getting assistance to come
here and work, that leads me to believe that there must have been some
sort of red flags, whether it was in Phoenix or Toronto or elsewhere.
It's also funny because I had him when I did an early Awards ladder,
which is something I do a pleach report. He was my Coach of the
Year through like the first month or month and a half of the season,
and to see how quickly that deteriorated. That ladder did not age well with
the Coaches of the Year award was writing about it. And that was also
the ladder where I got skewered by Miles Turner and Pacers Twitter in general.
So thank you for coming on this podcast and not holding that against me.
But when you look at this actual roster, and I mentioned this to you
in the outline for this, I don't think we're there, but I think
we're eventually going to get there on a national level anyway, for maybe people
that didn't follow the team as much, or just national people in general,
where they're going to think that because of the Pacers record, the stuff with
Nate Jorkin, they're gonna say, oh, this team is in contenders in
general, that there's going to be a push again from the outside to maybe
make major changes. And I'm looking at it more as I don't know what.
They don't really have a ton of flexibility anyway, But you're what projected
is your best five man lineup or your most important five man line up with
Lavert rogged in. Warren, Turner and Sa Bonus played exactly zero minutes together
this season and never had a chance. I mean just because Warren missed basically
the entire year. And so I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on
the roster, Like, is do we chalk a lot of this up to
Okay, this was a season for everyone, and the Pacers had the injuries.
We haven't seen their best players play together for an extended run and then
just sort of run it back or use someone that thinks there needs to be
more of like a measurable material change to some of the personnel. Right.
So, I mean, I feel like I'm making a habit every time I'm
on a podcast they tell people that are going to need a dinging sound For
how many times I say, I don't know, But I feel like this
was a very big, I don't know season for the Pacers for the exact
reason you just lined out. I literally have not seen this lineup play minutes
together. Now, I can make some cross comparisons from what you said earlier
in the season when Victor was you know, moderately healthy and was actually shooting
the ball pretty well for the Pacers right ahead before he got traded. That
grouping of five, they were enjoyable team to watch, like there was reason
to think that Nate Yorker was doing good things with the team. The offense,
they had a lot more weak side movement, a lot more flow and
terms of how they're and better screening combination. Stuff that they were doing was
just better. So if I can plug Carris into that role and try to
imagine it. The one thing that I'll say about the Nate Borchan system is
it's very interchangeable with the way they run some of their staggers connected to staggers,
like multiple people can play multiple roles, So it's easier for me to
imagine a fit with Brogden and Lavert and TJ with how this offense is now.
On the flip side of that, with what I was saying with the
Raptors, I'm not sure that the starting five really meshes with playing at the
pace they were towards the back end of the season when they only had one
big most of the time because one or the other of Turner Sabonis was injured,
as well as just what the defensive system is I think there's a mismatch
there and something would need to give, Like, either you're not doing all
of this shape shifting and you're not going to be this aggressive with ball pressure
where you're constantly giving up odd man advantages and making people play into rotation,
especially with the way that Sabonis gets used to play up top hedging on side
pick and rolls and kind of in this help and fly roll even they have
him pressing up on bigs a lot of the time clear outside the three point
line, even in non like dribble handoff situations like, I think that there
would need to either be a shift and somewhat of a relaxation in that scheme,
or they would need to find players that better fit playing a Raptors style,
and that may mean moving one of the two bigs to get a more
rangey, mobile four defender and some way shape or form whichever big that is.
But I mean, I still think this can be a good team if
it's a different coach. Obviously my opinion would change somewhat there. I'd have
to know what they were going to be doing, but I think they could
be competitive in a first round, depending upon the matchup. I don't think
that they have much of a chance to be competitive against Brooklyn or Milwaukee.
Maybe if they got better at how they would scheme against jel Embiid, because
that's a matchup that Miles, Turner and both sa Bonus have had issues with.
I might see my way towards that being you know, I lasting like
six games, like, I don't see them getting out of a series with
either of those three teams as currently constructed. I like all five players individually,
and I think that sometimes in the Turner and Sabonis debate, if you
were to ask me, like, oh, which four fits with Miles and
which four would fit with Sabonis, the other player would have a lot of
those characteristics. It's just a matter of do these people all fit cohesively at
the same time. And I think overall there is a limited ceiling to it.
So I think that they can be better than they were next year.
It's just a matter of is that good enough. There's also the element of
and I wouldn't, you know, remake the roster because of these two guys,
But you have TJ. McConnell and Doug McDermott entering free agency. Your
I think they're going to enter the off season like just there's a lot of
stuff that goes into it. But depending on what they do with some of
their non guarantees, they're going to be within ten million dollars of attacks and
so you're not going to fit both of those guys into that amount. And
so I'm curious as to whether you expect both of them to be back or
if you only expect or you could only have one of them back, who
is is more important to this team immediately and even longer term? Right?
So, I mean Kevin Pritchard seemed to indicate that both of them have two
feet in both of them would like to return. I don't think you're going
to be retaining both of them and remaining under the luxury tax clearly. So
I would have some questions for the Pacers. I mean, how do they
feel about Aaron Holiday? What's the system going to be? Are you gonna
do see yourselves as staggering Caris LeVert and Malcolm Brogden and having both of them
man a lot of the point minutes? And also if they do see themselves
potentially moving a big even if that doesn't happen in the off season, like
which one of the two of them, are they leaning towards Because I think
if I'm retaining Sabonus, I know that the general line of thought is that
shooters are more replaceable, but I don't think that necessarily. Chemistry in the
way that those two gel together is and I don't think it's probably can't be
understated. For Doug that like, yeah, he's a movement shooter, but
not everybody reads screens the way that he does and can cut the way that
he does. He loves moving out of the left corner to his right.
Sabonis is left handed and loves running dribble handoffs on the left side of the
floor, and that lets them fit really well together. And they just have
a wave link there. I mean, the number one assist combo on the
Pacers was Sabonis to Doug McDermott. There are two man game works well.
So if I was retaining Sabonis, I might lean that way a little bit.
If I'm leaning towards Miles Turner, I might lean towards TJ. McConnell,
especially if you're going to keep with Nate b Orkran, because TJ.
McConnell fits the system to a t on both ends of the floor, and
he's going to give you more playmaking, and if you're not gonna have Sabonis,
you've got to make up that playmaking some way. But then I kind
of weigh the lineups that you might have against each other, and I question,
like, Okay, if TJ. McConnell's gone and you're playing you know,
Aaron Doug Justin O'Shea goga, that's not a lot of playmaking. And
I don't know what the reads that Aaron was making this year that I would
trust that very much. But on the flip side, if it's you know,
TJ. Edmund Sumner Justin o'she goga. If Edmund Sumner and oshe shooting
doesn't hold, that's not a lot of shooting. So I think generally the
thought is that backup point guards are harder to find, and t J McConnell,
I think flat out one probably three or four games for the Pacers.
That sounds crazy, But if you wouldn't have played in like the game where
he had the steel triple double against the Calves, and I know how sad
of a statement that is to make, the Pacers would not have won that
game. So I think he's gonna help you win more regular season games.
But then I think an important question is to which one of them would be
more useful in the playoffs, And right now that's a little bit tough to
project because we didn't see a team making adjustments. They played two play in
games that were blowouts, and there wasn't necessarily a lot of exaggerated game planning
there. But TJ did get played off the floor by game four of the
series against the Heat because of some of the issues with off ball spacing and
because they have Karras who can run a little bit more. Point now,
it's reasonable to think that TJ might be playing off the ball in a playoff
series. So there's just a lot to consider there. My guess is that
Dog's gonna command more money, like I could see him getting the full mid
level, which would then lead me to think that TJ McConnell is going to
be the easier one to retain. But that's my long, twisty answer to
your question. This is an aside from the actual podcast, Caitlin, but
nape Jorkin was just fired. Yeah, that's pretty big news. Do you
have any immediate thoughts as to their decision to to I guess let him go,
and obviously we're still I'm sure as we're talking about this, they'll release
the list of prospective candidates. But do you ultimately think that based off everything
that happened, not just off the court, but you mentioned a bunch of
stuff on the court this year, without knowing who the next head coach is,
is your guests that or even just knowing who's on the coaching market right
now, is your guest that they should be able to find a tangible upgrade?
Right So, the Pacers have been connected did to Mike D'Antoni. They
were connected to him last year during the search. There's also been some rumblings
about Terry Stotts since his exodus from Portland and Steve Clifford. It depends.
I don't really know, even from the postgame presser, now that we know
that Nate Yorkan's out, which type of team that they exactly want to be.
They dialed up the pace st Tour at the back end of the season,
but then Kevin Pritchard and the postgame presser talked about they need to return
to a hard hat defensive mentality. So you know, Steve Clifford does know
how to coach defense. But you also, I don't think, want to
lose some of the progress that you made on the offensive into the floor and
some of that innovation. And I don't think you clearly wouldn't if that was
Mike D'Antoni. I do question overall if they'll be hesitant to go with another
first time higher and maybe that leads them to go with a more established name.
And I mean they interviewed probably around twenty There was a long long list
of profiles that I wrote last year, and I liked Dan Craig. I
thought he did some really good things from the Heat and now assisting the Clippers.
But one name that I would like to see, and I know that
a lot of Pacer two behind that i'd like to see get a little bit
more interest this go around Becky Hammond. But I don't know what her situation
is with the Spurs and and maybe the Celtics. Seems like her name circulating
up there. And that's a whole nother piece of this, that the Pacers
are going to be in competition with both Boston and Portland for perhaps established coaches
in the market. So and you seem to be spot on there because also
followed up the news that the Pacers are expected to go with a more experienced
and established head coach, So that point about them being reticent to go with
a first timer is spot on obviously. And then I think the name that
came out probably supports Jake Fisher right now is Terry Stotts has become increasingly linked
to their position, and that would fit with what Woud said in terms of
the experience. I don't know whether he would improve the team, you know,
by a noticeable degree on defense, but if they're looking for someone who's
experienced then who seemed to really have the support of his players, I guess
that would be a name that because even if Steve Clifford has always seemed like
that guy and he comes with the cachet of I feel like every team he's
coached has gotten better defensively, right And I know that a lot of people
that I've talked to you out of Portland have talked about Terry stots as a
culture setter as well, and clearly that's something that would need to be reset
after the last year. These questions I have for you now are less dependent
on a coaching aspect. I appreciate you rolling with us through this breaking news.
But what were your impressions of Carous Labert through his thirty five game sample
with the Pacers that was ultimately short to begin with, but then cut even
shorter because he entered the least health and safety protocols when it seemed like he
was playing for the most part really well. Right, So, I don't
think we'll have a full picture on carrass until probably next season. I know
that he mentioned at times that given his diagnosis and then having to undergo surgery
to treat cancer, that his conditioning wasn't quite where he wanted it to be.
But as you say, like especially in the month of May, he
really turned it on and got to handle the ball more Brogden was out with
the hamstring injury and really got to develop that chemistry with Sabonis because of that.
And that doesn't mean that I don't think he can play with Brogden.
It just gave him more opportunity, more time of possession to kind of find
his feel with Sabonis as a role man, because you could see that kind
of early on when he first came that he would do a little bit of
shot hunting and wasn't finding Miles or Sabonis on the pick and roll. But
then in the last over like the last fifteen games, he really did as
assist rate went up, his assist raw numbers went up, and yeah,
as you say, I mean even his three point shooting was up over forty
or the last several games. So a lot to like from Carris. I
think one of the things that surprised me is like, we knew what he
could do with ball screens, but in the Nate Borkan system at least he
had more opportunities to come off of iverson cuts and make some reads coming off
of screens. And he's not Doug McDermott in the sense that he's gonna fly
off and shoot a catching three in motion, but the way he reads those
picks to get himself open and the reads he can make out of blitzes that
was off that I didn't fully know that he had. That shined over the
last couple of weeks. He just is really good at making reads and you
can run really streamline stuff and he can do a lot with it. So
the defensive ends a little bit different story. You can't do the same things.
You can't do the same things with Carrots that you could do with Victor,
and that shows up fairly often. One possession that I would like to
point out, they were getting a viscerated by the Hawks in Atlanta out of
the pick and roll with Trey Young and Clint Capella, and they are running
single side, so t J McConnell was guarding Bogdon Bogdanovich and he would naturally
be the weak side tagger. But you're going to have to come off a
shooter in order to do it. And if that was Victor, they would
be able to tag from the side where the wings filled, even if it's
the strong side, because he's so good at getting out and even exing up
to the top, Carrots doesn't always have the recognition even to come over and
tag let alone. I don't think he quite has the recovery speed of Victor
to be able to do those types of things, and some of his off
ball defense needs to This isn't even a word, but I would call it
a little bit spacey, where he loses what he's supposed to be doing in
those settings. So I think that that needs some fine tuning. But you
know, hopefully they can get a coach in there that will do that because
that used to be something you could rely on with the old coaching staff and
Dan Burke that they would get development out of wings. T J. Warren
showed a lot of growth last year, even just over the first month of
the season and really tightening the screws on some of the things that he was
doing as a defender. So hopefully they can bring into some new guy who
will be able to get a little bit more out of him in that sense.
Yeah, the off ball defensive stuff dates like back to basically the start
of his career in Brooklyn. I don't know if that has Like he's played
for, including the Pacers, like eighty different teams over the course of his
career, but I don't know if that has anything to do with it.
Do you trust him though, is a primary initiator for the offense because when
you and I think you mentioned it already at this podcast, when you look
at the makeup of this roster, it kind of has to be like it's
him and Brogden and then like you said, Ma, like you bring McConnell
back. But it seems like they have to be when you're looking at traditional
point of attack guys where it's not so much gonna be. Yeah, you
can run stuff through a bonus, but those perimeter oriented players, do you
trust him to be that person for the offense? Yeah, I mean he
was doing it towards the back end of the season because Brogden was out.
I mean when t J McConnell was on the floor, TJ was doing a
little bit more of it and his time of possession was down. But Kearris
is not, I mean to put it lightly, His off ball shooting numbers
when he's in catch and shoot settings for his entire career usually settle in the
low thirties. So to a certain extent, it just it feels like a
more natural fit for Brogden to givee getting more spot opportunities and be doing stuff
out of second side attacks. With his ability to dribble, catch and shoot,
he can just kind of do more things in that general regard. And
but Brogden has said since the time that he was in Milwaukee that he thinks
his best position is point guard, and I think he definitely can play point
There seems to be a little bit of a general movement that he just needs
to be a spot up guy. But I definitely think you can run offense
through him. He didn't get to run quite as much middle pick and roll
this year as the year before, and I think that hurt the Pacers in
certain settings because team started ducking under because the Pacers literally only had one guy
who could get downhill for a couple of months out of the season when TJ
and Carris were both sidelined, So it made it easy to kind of bog
down their offense by doing that, and when they weren't running stuff through the
middle, it made it harder to get rescreens for him to be able to
attack. But they both can do it. And I don't really ascribe to
the theory of like, oh, there's only one ball or I don't think
that you can have enough playmaking and that's something that Carris does I have over
Victor. I do think he's a better pass or overall than Victor. I
mean, even just what I mentioned before, just his ability to pass out
of traps is better than what it was than what Victor was going back to
that series against Cleveland. So there's more passing and they're both generally willing passing.
I think there's sometimes that Carris can do a little bit of shot hunting
but I think that they're both willing to share the basketball, so with the
right coaching staff, I definitely think that it can work. Whether it will
and whether they're willing to make the sacrifices for it too is another question.
But from a basketball sense, I think it can be a good fit.
And there's probably just a rush always to like, not every offense has to
be like heliocentric is said. Part now is called it like playmaking by committee
seems fine, and Carrots got a ton of reps even before he was in
Indiana with Brooklyn because of all those injuries and just inconsistent roster construction, and
he really, I would say borderline shined as a passer there, and like
he said, he will kind of shot hunt, especially from those in between
ranges. But I actually kind of like the idea. I like him better
offensively for this team, I think than Victor Rolodipo, just based on the
way that they're they're currently built. Even if you thought Victor Oldipo's health issues
aside that his peak individually might just be higher as a player, and probably
because of the difference making he had the potential to do on the defensive end.
But I feel like Caros Lavert is kind of a slightly more well rounded
offensive player. Yeah, I agree with that for what I said from the
passing standpoint, and I think, you know, we didn't get many opportunities
last year to see TJ. Warren and Victor play together with the aside of
the bubble and TJ Warren, because Victor was kind of in the deluded state
and TJ. Warren had really established himself. You didn't have to do a
lot of fit finagling there because it was kind of revealing it on its own.
I'll be interested to see how the two of them playoff of each other.
But I think just the fact that because Carris can do more as a
facilitator where TJ. Warren is definitely more score first and doesn't necessarily have that
in his bag, that I can see my way toward even though there is
a little bit of overlap and how their games are, especially what you said
and being in the in between range, I think that it can be more
feasible perhaps than even with Victor in that sense. Well, you answered the
second part of this question already for me. Whether you like leverts fit next
to Warren better than Warren's next to deepot, do you have any you know,
expectations for Warren next season, Like, is this something where we should
expect there to be sort of a steeper grace period because he missed basically all
year with that left foot injury. Just do you have any general expectations for
what he can do for this roster, what to expect from the next season,
or you know, do they view him, should he still be treated
as a core piece with he's extension eligible now and he's also has twenty twenty
two free agency on the horizon, and people still do remember the bubble performance
that he had. He could be quite an expensive player to keep around long
term, right, So, I mean the entire end of game press presser
from Kevin Pritchard felt a lot of it like it was like a giant love
letter to TJ. Warren. I mean they talked a lot about it,
did I mean, they talked a lot about how much they missed him,
just as being their top score from a year ago, the strides that he
had made in the bubble, and that he was a fourth quarter scorer and
a fourth quarter defender, and talked about him being able to guard other guys
to our other team's top guys. And while I did quibble a little bit,
like they brought up how you know, at the end of the year
we were having to have you know, O'Shea or other people guardianas, I'm
like, well, TJ didn't really Guardiana slash year either. He was.
I mean, this is gonna sound strange, but I do think that TJ
might be their best on ball defender. There was times this season beforehand where
like they would put him on possessions on Devin Booker, they would put him
possessions on Jamal Murray and Justin Holiday did some of that because Malcolm Brogden's strengths
really aren't point of attack, and you can do that with TJ a little
bit, but I mean they aren't wrong, and how much they didn't miss
him from both standpoints, I mean, you're not going to go very far
in the NBA when both of your starting wings are not in the rotation,
and they did get eviscerated by bigger wings and most like a lot of games,
and not even just like elite ones like like Jannis and I don't mean
this with any disrespect, but like Harrison Barnes, O Gana, Nobi mckel
Bridges, like all these guys. I think McKell bridges had as highest scoring
outing of the year against the Pacers because they just didn't really have anybody that
could They could check wings, and it's easier to manipulate that when he's in
there, whether it's going to be that he's doing more stuff on ball,
or whether it's going to be brogged in. But it sounds like he has
interests and sticking around. I mean, obviously there was the reporting that he
had requested a trade. He shot that down and Kevin Pritcher did, but
there was also subsequent reporting from J. Michael at the Indianapolis Star that he
likes being in a small market and has enjoyed his time in Indiana, which
he seemed to reiterate during exit interviews. So I see him as a key
piece. But as you say, they can't, I don't know what the
full amount they can offer him an extension is right now before the season starts,
but I think it's significantly less than what he would be able to get
in free agency. So it does make the money tied if they aren't going
to make some other type of a trade. Yeah, I think it's one
hundred and twenty percent of what would be next season salary, and I guess
he's coming off of injury, so maybe he thinks of accepting that. But
if I were him, I'd probably gamble going into free agency at this point.
And he I guess he and boy Bardonovitch are probably like two of Dan
Burke's like big wins when you look at his trays. Obviously Burke is no
longer with the team, but just you look at how much those guys improved
defensively where you can even kind of see it in Utah now, like they're
okay, Like they had bogey On Kauai for stretches in the Clippers in Game
one and he did okay, Like he can play a physical brand of one
on one defense. And then Warren when you just look at how he played,
and I know the stakes are different from Phoenix to Indiana, but like
he improved exponentially on the defensive end during that first year with the Pacers.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I pointed that out in our article, Like,
and I'm not trying to pretend that Luke Kennard is an elite player,
but he's somebody that's been a killer against the Pacers over lots of games,
and they played Detroit like three times early in the season a year ago,
and TJ. Warren't struggled in that matchup, Like there were times where he
was effectively setting like friendly fire screens. His footwork wasn't good and he was
almost screening his own guy even when they were over in preseason in India,
he had moments where I like, I'm mentioning with Keris Lavert, like where
he would he would lose track of people away from the ball or whether it
was supposed to be him who was sinking on week side rotations, and then
they play like literally it was about a week or two weeks later and he's
defending Luke Nard again, and not just whether Luke was making or missing shots,
Like his literal execution of what he was supposed to be doing on defense
was like night and day. So yeah, I mean, definitely a kudos
to Dan Burke for that went in for TJ. I mean, because I
will say it's not universal. Jeremy Lamb didn't make the same strides that TJ
did. Obviously put in the work to get better as well, but that's
always been a concern, Like when I've had conversations about Carriss is, will
can we trust that this will actually get better? And prior to you felt
pretty good about it. But TJ certainly made strides as a defender last year.
I was about to say, if this question is kind of loaded now
that the Pacers don't have a head coach, but they were kind of in
flux when we started recording this podcast anyway, so it was always going to
be a loaded question. But when you look at sort of the three main
pleasant surprises from the season for Indye from ohe Brishett, Edmund Sumner and then
Baby Shack himself Kelan Martin, is there one that intrigues you the most long
term or you think is most important to this team over the longer term?
Right? So, Edmund and Nosche were two reasons to like keep watching the
Pacers while they dealt with a myriad of injuries towards the back half and had
kind of all this drama swirling around them. Edmund really improved. You watch
him and it looks like a shooting mechanics have got better and he doesn't.
He does more. A lot of what he does originates in the corner,
but he doesn't just go there and stand in the corner. He's a great
slasher, but he made really good use of cutting on penetration and also like
on banana cuts and O Shae Brissette was just kind of a revelation, like
that's been a hole that the Pacers have had for a long time at the
backup four spots. So I might lean and which one's more important. As
much as I love the Edmund Sumter experience and just watching like his raw speed
and the open floor and his ability to leak out and transition, I might
lean towards Brissette just because they don't have as much depth at the four spot.
And I think that there's a trickle down effect by having him that if
you can play him minutes at backup for then Justin isn't doing it anymore and
he's not getting worn down as the season goes, because I think it was
in April late March his three point shooting really took a hit, and some
of that just happens by shooters naturally, but he just looked worn down.
I mean, like I mentioned earlier, he would with the starting lineup.
At times he would be guarding the other team's guard, like Colin Sexton or
whoever it may be, and then he comes in with the bench, and
he comes in and fours and a fochet. Brissette can do that. I
think you can get him more to his natural position and hopefully get more out
of everybody. But you hope that o'she can continue shooting the three the way
that he did, because he does a lot as a weak side defender,
and the pacers so often their weak side help just wouldn't be there. And
he's a guy that can move sideline to sideline really well, shuffles his feet
and could perhaps like contest a shot from three and still get back. And
I mean I've seen him get blocks as a weak side room protector a few
times this year, so he's an exciting one to watch continue to develop.
Summer was really fun to watch. If he were like two to four inches
bigger, I might be inclined to pick him out of this three. But
I asked. I kind of feel like the answer was clearly what you said
with Brissette. And also, you know, I love me some justin holiday.
I know you said he's overstretched the most backup for minutes, but one
of the most malleable just glue guys in the NBA over the past few years.
I think when you look at Kevin Pritchard's postseason comments, it was sort
of like a he fell short of Neil Ochett in Portland saying we need a
coach who's gonna amplify this roster without it making any changes. But he seemed
to kind of like when you look at what Pritchard said, like he wasn't
expecting any major changes to the Pacers roster was kind of saying that. That
being said, just given as we already talked about McConnell and McDermott entering free
agency, maybe they do want to increase some flexibility to keep both of them.
And I do agree with what you said since I didn't get to this
before that I would imagine Doug McDermott does get the full mid level, like
his value as a movement shooter. Obviously you mentioned dude shooting like sixty something
percent on twos this year, shot over fifty two percent on drive and so
I think he's going to intrigue a ton. But if they wanted to go
that route of whether it's just a change or increasing flexibility, is there a
player that you look at on this roster who would be most likely to be
traded before next season. I mean, Jeremy Lamb after returning from injury.
I give him credit because he was shooting the three very well and from an
offensive standpoint, it was kind of miraculous in the sense that he just didn't
look different, like he was still gliding and getting to his spots as if
he was never injured. As I mentioned before, his defense leaves quite a
bit to be desired, and in this system that got exaggerated more. I
mean, he comes out at really awkward angles on closeouts, and when you're
constantly playing in scramble mode, that gets amplified. But they're all they were
also trying to find really weird spots to get him minutes, like he would
be playing at the four with McConnell and McDermott and Goga out there at times,
and Aaron Holiday because they wanted to get those guys minutes or maybe swap
out Aaron Holiday with Edmund Sumner, and that's just that's not going to be
a great fit for Jeremy, and I feel like Edmund really established himself well
towards the back end of the season, where I don't know that I could
justify telling Edmund that he's not going to be getting minutes anymore after what he
did to earn the minutes that he got, and it kind of just worked
out because Jeremy was dealing with nis orness, so he wasn't in the lineup.
But I don't know how viable it would be to kind of try to
offload his salary, but that's one move that I could see them making,
just to try to do some consolidation and make their rotation a little bit clear,
of course, depending upon which time of coach they hire, because there
was spots. I will say, like they played the third game against the
Miami Heat in the way that the Heat were blitzing and then kind of taking
away the rim that was leaving the flow to range open. And Jeremy's a
guy who you feel good about putting in in a lineup in that situation and
still being able to score. He did good things against Toronto's three two zone.
The Pacers were really struggling to score against it in that game, and
he came in and drew some fouls and was able to get into the soft
spots. So I mean, he does have value if he can be healthy.
It's just that they have a lot of players at that particular position right
now, and then you know, I'm with you. It seemed like they
felt like they were going to keep the starting five intact and see, like
now what a new coach can do with that grouping. And I'm not completely
opposed to it, but I wouldn't say I'm committed to it either. And
the one downside to this, which you could see late in the year,
is what you would do was sabonus at the five defensively is very different than
what you would do with Miles defensively. So if they do think they're going
to make a move there, I think it would be beneficial to the new
coach to know that, because it was very hard for Sabonis to step into
a funneling system late in the year when there's no way that you're going to
change that mid season. But if they're going to be committed to it and
they really want to see how it works, then that's one thing. But
I guess my next answer would be a big I won't say which one because
I don't feel like getting yelled at by Twitter, but that would be the
most likely person that would get moved, especially if they just wanted to add
more depth at the four spot in the starting lineup. Just two quick questions
before I get you out of here. If we're I think we're both assuming,
and I think everyone's assuming that the crux of this roster's going to remain
in place. You were pretty critical of their defense at different points. You
were pretty critical of their defense during this podcast. Actually, do they have
the personnel when left alone at full strength to be much better? You know,
they were dead last in the share of opponent attempts that came at the
rim. Was that just a byproduct of poor transition defense? Is there's something
more sinister at play? Do you think that they're you know, did their
commitment to zone at points really betray them? So? Was it really more
of a coaching thing or even availability thing when you look at the personnel,
or do you think that there needs to be like there's still something missing from
this roster that would prevent them from being a lot better defensively. Well,
I mean, I think it's kind of all of the above. I think
that the one thing I keep hanging my hat on though, is that this
was a top six defensive team last year with basically the same roster. I
mean TJ again, that's a loss, but you are starting Jeremy Lamb in
place of Victor last year, and the old coaching staff still managed to put
together a top six offense with you know, Victor only playing a handful of
games. So and one other thing is like there wasn't a massive on off
differential and the defensive numbers when Miles was on versus off last year because they
just managed to scheme things better and they kept Sabonus's radius closer to the basket
than what you'll see this year. I mean I pointed that out. I
think from the nons some standpoint that they didn't always get consistent effort, but
I think some of that comes from coaching too and holding guys accountable. But
the system, like I said, was mismatched I think with the roster and
what you said with the zone I think is very prescient because when you're trying
to run that many different I mean the two three, nor the box in
one or the triangle and two ever seemed very settled. It didn't seem like
they understood what their roles within that were supposed to be. And some of
that might come from what you've mentioned, like so many different lineups having been
there, but like bump downs were non existent. I don't know why they
were trapping the wing in a two three zone. And if they were going
to trap the wing in a two three zone in certain games, why you
weren't in past denial mode doing that. Those types of questions are definitely worth
asking. And when you're rotating through that many different types of coverages, I
think it can be hard. But what you bring up about the opponent rim
percentage or rim frequency, I think that's about like a three prong thing.
Yes, their transition defense had a lot of issues towards the back end of
the season for several technical reasons that I won't get into, but they also
like when your ball you're when you're probably that much ball pressure, you're giving
up an odd man advantage. And then Miles Turners having to commit and sell
out for blocks or sabonus Is having to sell out for contests and made it
harder for them to rebound. And they don't have a lot of top rebounders,
so they also ranked very low and second chance points, so that's points
that they're getting around the basket, whether you know sometimes those will be kick
out threes, But those are some of the reasons, and then Sabonus just
isn't going to protect the basket as well in the minutes that he's out there
than Miles is when you're doing so much funnel funnel funnel, which is where
I go back to the two bigs. If you're gonna have Sabonus out there,
you're gonna be I would think my gut inclination is that you would be
pushing more of that and using baseline. Sideline is more of a fifth and
six or sixth and seventh man, which is interesting because in the preseason they
were they were icing more side pick and rolls, and then once the regular
season started they were pretty much having him exclusively hedge those. So when you're
funneling stuff to him, he doesn't have the wingspan nor the timing to be
doing what my does as a pick and roll defender. So that's certainly contributing
factor. But the opponent rim frequency was also like third in the league.
Even in the minutes when Miles was out there. They just don't have any
rim deterrence. They don't keep people out of the paint. And some of
it goes back to like what I just said their stances even when they come
to the nail, they're just funneling people right down the lane. So my
inclination is, because of what the numbers were last year, that you can
get it better than what it was. But you've also subbed out a few
people with Carris. I don't know what TJ. Warren's going to look like
coming back from a foot injury, so I'm somewhat hesitant. I don't think
that they have a silver bullet for how they're going to defend people like you
know, Jannis Ben Simmons, Pascal Sehawkum, I don't. I don't know
that that's going to be answered internally, and you're just gonna have to find
other ways to cover for that, or somebody who can creatively come up with
different coverages. I would have been interested to see. And I know people
probably look at the overall team defense too much rather than you know on offs
here. But had Myles turn never had the you know, miss a ton
of time with the But do you have a big toe injury and need an
ankle injury? At one point it didn't even fracture. To this season,
he dealt with a bunch of different stuff they were in the eightieth percentile of
defensive efficiency when he was on the court, and opponents were still, like
you said, getting to the rim a ton. But at testament to his
rim protection that they still performed so well in those minutes despite letting. When
I looked it up, it was thirty seven point one percent of their opponent
shot attempts were coming at the rim with Turner on the court, which is
a huge number. They were just so good at defending the rim with those
minutes. So he had a fantastic defensive season, and I'm sure his absences
exacerbated the issues, but it couldn't textually be like a blessing in disguise thing
where it helped them realize, like how far away they were defensively if he's
not on the court, because there are going to be you know, between
in a normal season if he stays there fifteen to twenty minutes a game,
or he's not necessarily on the court, right, I mean, I think
that they need to evaluate how much And I don't mean this in a derogatory
sense to Miles at all, for all the reasons you just said, like
he's a tremendous pick and roll defender, great rim protector. He can,
He's adaptable in the way that you can use him in the pick and roll,
more so than Sabonus. But I think that you need to evaluate how
much you're overburdening him to be doing those things and how much you're willing to
let people even though how well he depresses that field goal percentage, if that's
completely viable and that if that's going to be your scheme, then I don't
think you're going to be completely reorienting it in the minutes when he isn't out
there. So yeah, I mean, they did mention how much they missed
Miles as a rim protector during the end season press conference, and this is
the second time they've done this because when they drafted Goga and it was still
the Dan Burke system. They're like, well, one of the most Goga
can block shots and one of the most important things when we set our defense
as a shot blocker. And I think Kevin Pritchard said something along the lines
in the end the season press are like, two of the most important things
in the NBA is having a rim protector and a wing defender. And t
J. Warren and Miles were out and I'm sure some of that was like
trying to provide reason for why they had such the fall off that they did
without completely sandbagging Buorcan or anybody else. But because you also need to be
able to hire a new coach, so you don't really want to completely back
blackball the coach that's leaving. But yeah, I mean, I think that
Miles would have made the defensive situation towards the end of the season better.
But I can also look at games like against the Wizards where they still gave
up seventy four paint points in that game, even in the one that he
played, and they weren't keeping Russell Westbrook out of the paint. And that's
where I go back to, you know, maybe don't go overboard with overs
And I do think that they need to make some scheme adjustments whether they have
him or not. And they had issues toward the last several weeks. I
mean the last game he played in against the Hawks, they were getting ripped
up by Clint Capella on the role and that's a little bit of my pet
peeve, like that's not him, that's a team thing. You need to
be able to You're not going to defend that two on two, there's no
way you're defending Trey Young two on two in those situations. So definitely some
refining that they need to do an evaluation. My final question, and I
feel like I've jumped around a ton because of Woads here, but is there
anything else I didn't ask you? And I'm there's a ton of things I
didn't ask you, But is there anything else that I didn't ask you that
you want to talk about or something that you think needs to be mentioned about
this team heading into the offseason. Are you sad that I didn't ask you
more about Malcolm Brogden, Sabonus or Turner trade packages anything at all. No,
not sad at all about the fake trades. And I feel like I
need to apologize now. I mean, the listeners aren't going to know this,
but I apologize for the amount of times that my Internet went out during
this, that my mic didn't work, and that my phone has been constantly
pinging about Nate b Orkn being fired. And I also apologize for answers that
now don't reflect that Nate bi Orker was fired. Hey, look, I
just appreciate you staying on. I saw the news break while you were talking
about. I think it was the defense at one point. I can't remember
what question it was. Now I felt bad that you were just on this
podcast while everything is blowing up in Pacers Land. Again. We had talked
about before the podcast too, how kind of quiet it had been by design,
because the Pacers told everybody to take a beat, and they decided that
that beat was over. Exactly. This is my life, though, Dan.
Typically this is when stuff happens, is when I actually have stuff scheduled
with other people, that's when the news breaks. I'm pretty sure that this
exact same thing happened when Nate McMillan was fired last year. Was it with
you? I might have been on a podcast with you and that happened.
I don't know. I was on one with somebody, and then I was
After I got off, I was like, oh, major news has dropped.
It was definitely not me. I would have I would never invite you
on the podcast again if you had been had been forced to sit through it
for two head coaching changes. Yeah, well yeah, back to back Nates
are out, so the job is defined, new new Nate that will guide
the Pacers to a championship. But was there anything else about this team that
you thought need to be covered before I mercifully release you. No, I
think that you covered it all really well. I'm impressed by your questions.
Oh you're too kind. This team is fascinating heading into the offseason, not
just because Nate Yorkan was already fired, but when you look on paper,
they have one of the deep I don't it's not a perfectly balanced roster,
but it's one of the deepest rosters in terms of actually good NBA players on
it. And they have the potential to go from sort of this implosive faction
this year to in the thick of the you know, a top four spot
in the East next year. And so they're off season is going to be
fascinating. I hope you will let me bother you again once all that hoopla
sort of unfolds before we get into the next regular season. But if you
guys are not following Caitlyn and you're listening to this podcast, I have no
idea what you're doing with your lives. Follow her on Twitter at C two
Underscore Cooper spelled exactly as it sounds. Fantastic writer for Indie krnrows at Spnation
just knows so much about the NBA. Great follow on Twitter if you're looking
for great playoff analysis right now as well. Caitlyn, thank you, as
always so much for coming on and giving me and being so generous excuse me
with your time. Thanks again for inviting me. I really appreciate it.