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What is poppin Harvarnos list, there's
I Am Damn for Valley coming at you

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with a pre podcast intro because we
have Caitlyn Cooper at C two Underscore Cooper

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as always follow her on Twitter from
Indie corn Rows. On the podcast,

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I did an intro with her,
but while we were recording mid podcast,

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Nate Jorkin got fired, and so
while there was going to be other stuff

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attached to this podcast, and also
this podcast was not going to be released

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on a random Wednesday afternoon, I
decided it was best to just push it

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out, but also wanted to give
you a note that we were reacting in

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real time. She was kind enough
to stay on after the news broke,

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so we discussed that, discuss a
bunch about the Pacers future, which even

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if you're not a fan of the
Pacers, they are one of the most

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fascinating teams heading into the off season
now, not just because they have the

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coaching that you can see they have
the potential to be really good if if

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they're healthy. She is great as
always, just wanted to throw you that

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note. Let's get to the podcast
now, though, with Kaitlyn Cooper from

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Indie Cornrows, What is track Lackey
in Hardwood NOx listeners, I am Damp

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Valley coming at you without my fan
tabulous co host Adam frommel I am,

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however, super excited as always to
be joined by a fantabulous guest and friend

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of the Hardwood Knox podcast, Kaitlyn
Cooper. She covers the Indiana Pacers for

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Indie corn Rows at sp Nation.
Follow her on Twitter if you do not

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already at C two underscore Cooper,
Kaitlyn, how are you doing. I'm

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doing well. I'm happy to be
back on here and talking about the Pacers

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again. It's been a minute.
Yeah. So I have a rule that

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I try not to bother guests who
are not on the same payrolls me more

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than twice a year. And so, as all this was unfurling with the

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Pacers over like the past few months, towards the end of the season,

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I was like trying to time it
right. I was like, you know,

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I'm always going to ask her to
come on, like before the season

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to sort of analyze everything that happened, But there was such like a shit

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storm happening in India. I had
to resist not trying to get you to

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come on for an extra appearance,
because again, I don't like, you

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know, having people on more than
twice a year. I try to be

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respectful of their time in that way, and I can imagine that that was

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a pretty hectic closing kick for you. Yeah, hectics one way to put

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it. I mean, I think
it's probably better that you have me on

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now because it seems like some of
the fog is cleared. Like I just

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I do power rankings of parts of
the NBA season that I enjoy covering,

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and pretty much everything that's happened with
the Pacers over like the last month is

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ranking in like the deep five hundreds, like rumors, sorting through rumors,

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locker room strife is all way down
there. So well, as usual,

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I've brought you on to talk about
only Sabonis and Miles Turner trade packages and

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so oh great great, So you
mean my following will be sliced in half

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by the time this podcast. My
first question, though, is just how

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many years did this Pacer season shave
off your life? Just between the injuries,

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it being a truncated season, the
coaching stuff with Date Jorkan, the

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the way that it seemed like,
you know, you were pretty critical of

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their defense. But there's just so
many moving parts in this Pacer season that

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even from someone watching Afar, it
felt absolutely absurd, right. I mean,

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I guess the best way I could
put it is I've lost track of

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how many times I've posted my sad
Jeff Tige picture. It is. It's

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a lot of times. But I
mean, in all honesty, it feels

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like in the last calendar year,
even going back to last season that I've

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covered, I don't know how many
Pacer teams, because I mean, you

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look at it, and when Victor
was out with the injury, they were

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starting Jeremy Lamb and then Victor comes
back and kind of a reduced state.

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Then they go into the bubble.
They don't have Sabonis, but Bubble Warren

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kind of happens. Then they come
back to start this season and it seems

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like, oh, the actual starting
lineup is going to be there, and

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you know, we were so innocent
back then, And then for four games

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later, TJ. Warrens hurt and
that kind of reorients how you see the

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team. Then not long after that, they've traded Victor and then they just

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have no wings because they have Karris, but Carris can't play and then you're

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adjusting to Carris being in the lineup, and then like the last month,

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it just seemed like NonStop upheaval.
So from a reporting standpoint, so even

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for me, it's hard to wrap
my head around how many different teams I've

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written and talked about. Yeah,
and I know part of this is because

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the world has imploded. But if
you were to tell me that it was

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only two seasons ago that like that
Young and Bogey were on this team,

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I wouldn't believe you, because it
feels like a lot longer in Pacers years.

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Yeah. No, I definitely does. And some of that I even

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have to keep track of because just
trying to match this defense against prior defense,

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especially as it pertains of Sabonus,
it's like, well, they didn't

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actually have those guys last year,
but it kind of seems like they did.

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All of it's blending together. I
do know that you're not like the

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that you don't enjoy rumors that much. But I have to ask you about

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the Nate York and stuff. Mostly
where do you land on it? Because

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there's you know, there's smoke,
there's fire, and then there's the raging

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inferno that this rumor mill became and
I don't think at the end of the

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season Kevin Pritchard less than ring endorsement. I think we could call it of

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Nate just coupled with all the reporting, do you land on one side of

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the fence or the other on what
the Pacers should do with him? Or

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are you more like just hurry up
and get to your resolution whatever it is,

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so that you can move on as
an organization. Right, So I

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think for me, like, especially
in the aftermath of that press conference,

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like even when the initial reporting came
out, the fact that the Pacers didn't

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make any effort to come out and
really squash that stuff, with the exception

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of you know, TJ. Warren
putting some tweets out about indicating that he

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didn't request a trade, but like
the main nuts and bolts of like the

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human management stuff, they didn't come
out and deny any of that. And

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then in the press conference, the
fact that they still haven't made a decision

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yet and also didn't deny that the
human management in micromanaging existed, I feel

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kind of tells you everything you need
to know to a certain extent, And

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because a lot of what's being reported
from various outlets. Also seems like this

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isn't just a disgruntled player, at
least that's not my read on it.

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I mean, you're hearing stuff about
interactions with staff and assistant coaching and some

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of the challenges they had even building
the assistant coaching staff and whether they're going

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to be I mean, just from
an outsider's perspective, after some of that

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reporting comes out, are you going
to be able to find upgrades for an

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assistant coaching staff? I mean,
is that a job that people are gonna

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want to take. I don't know, maybe it is, but I mean

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you look back to I mean,
I always refer to it as last summer,

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but last offseason, and through reporting, there was indicators that in addition

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to modernizing the offense, they wanted
a coach who was going to come in

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and be a modern communicator and to
hear, like one quote in particular sticks

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out for me from Kevin Pritchard.
He says, quote, I have a

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young coach who is really talented in
x as and os and he has to

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get better at human management. So
to hear a year later that that didn't

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happen, that feels like a bit
of a failure and then on the flip

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side, like I write from more
of the x as and o's perspective,

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and they're talking about wanting to sit
down and meet with him and thinking and

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hoping that he'll be self reflective on
things that he can get better at.

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But was he self reflective and what
he was doing just from the XS and

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O standpoint, Like you look at
that playing game against the Wizards. I

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mean, the Pacers got wrecked by
the Wizards four times, and while they

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did make some adjustments, I mean
I wrote about it. People can look

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at the article I wrote about their
junk defenses and what they looked like.

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The third game, they played a
lot of triangle two, box in one

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and zone and it didn't go well. But overall, the common thread uniting

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all of those games together was we're
still going over on every single screen and

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we will not duck under on Russell
Westbrook and try to allow him to beat

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us as a shooter. So to
come out and do that in the playing

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game again, Like, yes,
it mattered that you didn't have TJ.

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Warren, It mattered that Carris Lavert
was in health and safety protocols, and

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it mattered that Miles Turner was out. That's three starters who all provide unique

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skill sets, but to come out
with the exact same approach was just an

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excusable on a certain front to me. I mean, I don't understand why

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you couldn't at least duck under a
screen. Do I think that they were

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going to win that game? Do
I? Did I expect them to?

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Did I think they're going to be
successful in a first plan playoff series against

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the Sixers, especially without the guys
that I just mentioned. No, But

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that just shows a little bit of
inflexibility there. So at what point do

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you feel comfortable expecting him to kind
of be his exact opposite if you know

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what I mean, Like, if
you get into this setting again next year,

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you're going to be happy that you
sat with it. I mean,

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only they can really answer that,
because they're the ones having direct contact with

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him. But I wasn't thrilled from
the standpoint that he coached this team as

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the Raptors pretty much from day one, and I wrote celebratory of many of

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the things that he incorporated offensively from
Nick Nurse that I thought worked well for

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the Pacers. But I don't really
understand the approach of defensively copying and pasting

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that on a roster that it didn't
really seem to fit on, and that

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war on as the season progress,
So I would land toward it's probably time

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to make a change, But that
makes me feel icky, like I don't

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like advocating for people to not have
a job. And I suppose, like

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maybe to give him the benefit of
the doubt, if he had a full

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training camp and the roster was healthy
and you really had time, Like in

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his defense, this wasn't a great
season to incorporate trying to play and shape

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shift through this many different types of
defense. You're not having practices, You

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had a shortened off season for guys
to get conditioned to play this sort of

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aggressive scheme. So I'm not sure
that that worked in his favor, but

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I think there's a lot of negatives
working against him for sure. On quick

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aside there, I can't I think
I can't remember you wrote it or tweeted

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it, but you said something like
they actually went under one of the screens

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on Russell Westbrook in one of the
games against the Wizards, And I audibly

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laughed when you tweeted or wrote that, because it was clear how ridiculous.

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She thought it was that they weren't
doing things like that. I'd be the

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thing that seems to be working against
him because from my perspective, I think,

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Okay, it's a first year coach
and there is a different an element

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to, you know, having to
manage players as opposed to just dealing with

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x's and o's and other sort of
stratagems. But when you see the reporting

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about like how little background work apparently
went into you know, you know,

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like clearing him. When you look
at there might have been problems when he

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was with the Raptors, this isn't
even just a Pacers specific situation. That's

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what really seems to be damning.
Where from Afar, I'd be like,

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it might just be time to move
on at this point, because I don't

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know if this is an issue of
a learning curve or just that he's forever

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going to clash with people because of
his type of management style, right,

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And I mean, just to show
the other side, I believe Kevin Pritchard

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mentioned in the postgame pressor that they
did talk to up to fifteen I don't

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remember the exact number. I mean, it seemed like he was shooting that

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down a little bit, and Nick
Nurse did say something along the lines like

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he answered that and went kind of
full fake news and talked about clickbait and

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then said that what happened with the
Raptors was hundred percent false. And obviously

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I'm not involved in any of those
situations. But the one thing that I

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do look at as Scott Agnes,
if people want to read it, it's

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really good about the Pacers moving on
from dan Burke. He had a little

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bit of reporting in there that the
Pacers had trouble building the assistant staff because

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of Nate Bjorker, and so that
tends that leads me to believe that there

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were some issues going on beforehand.
Otherwise, why were you having issues building

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the assistant coaching staff? You know
what I mean? Like, I'm not

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saying that Indiana is a glamour market
necessarily, but there's only so many coaching

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jobs in the NBA, and if
you were having trouble getting assistance to come

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here and work, that leads me
to believe that there must have been some

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sort of red flags, whether it
was in Phoenix or Toronto or elsewhere.

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It's also funny because I had him
when I did an early Awards ladder,

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which is something I do a pleach
report. He was my Coach of the

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Year through like the first month or
month and a half of the season,

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and to see how quickly that deteriorated. That ladder did not age well with

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the Coaches of the Year award was
writing about it. And that was also

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the ladder where I got skewered by
Miles Turner and Pacers Twitter in general.

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So thank you for coming on this
podcast and not holding that against me.

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But when you look at this actual
roster, and I mentioned this to you

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in the outline for this, I
don't think we're there, but I think

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we're eventually going to get there on
a national level anyway, for maybe people

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that didn't follow the team as much, or just national people in general,

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where they're going to think that because
of the Pacers record, the stuff with

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Nate Jorkin, they're gonna say,
oh, this team is in contenders in

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general, that there's going to be
a push again from the outside to maybe

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make major changes. And I'm looking
at it more as I don't know what.

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They don't really have a ton of
flexibility anyway, But you're what projected

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is your best five man lineup or
your most important five man line up with

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Lavert rogged in. Warren, Turner
and Sa Bonus played exactly zero minutes together

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this season and never had a chance. I mean just because Warren missed basically

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the entire year. And so I'm
curious as to what your thoughts are on

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the roster, Like, is do
we chalk a lot of this up to

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Okay, this was a season for
everyone, and the Pacers had the injuries.

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We haven't seen their best players play
together for an extended run and then

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just sort of run it back or
use someone that thinks there needs to be

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more of like a measurable material change
to some of the personnel. Right.

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So, I mean, I feel
like I'm making a habit every time I'm

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on a podcast they tell people that
are going to need a dinging sound For

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how many times I say, I
don't know, But I feel like this

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was a very big, I don't
know season for the Pacers for the exact

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reason you just lined out. I
literally have not seen this lineup play minutes

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together. Now, I can make
some cross comparisons from what you said earlier

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in the season when Victor was you
know, moderately healthy and was actually shooting

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the ball pretty well for the Pacers
right ahead before he got traded. That

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grouping of five, they were enjoyable
team to watch, like there was reason

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to think that Nate Yorker was doing
good things with the team. The offense,

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they had a lot more weak side
movement, a lot more flow and

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terms of how they're and better screening
combination. Stuff that they were doing was

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just better. So if I can
plug Carris into that role and try to

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imagine it. The one thing that
I'll say about the Nate Borchan system is

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it's very interchangeable with the way they
run some of their staggers connected to staggers,

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like multiple people can play multiple roles, So it's easier for me to

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imagine a fit with Brogden and Lavert
and TJ with how this offense is now.

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On the flip side of that,
with what I was saying with the

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Raptors, I'm not sure that the
starting five really meshes with playing at the

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pace they were towards the back end
of the season when they only had one

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big most of the time because one
or the other of Turner Sabonis was injured,

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as well as just what the defensive
system is I think there's a mismatch

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there and something would need to give, Like, either you're not doing all

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of this shape shifting and you're not
going to be this aggressive with ball pressure

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where you're constantly giving up odd man
advantages and making people play into rotation,

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especially with the way that Sabonis gets
used to play up top hedging on side

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pick and rolls and kind of in
this help and fly roll even they have

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him pressing up on bigs a lot
of the time clear outside the three point

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line, even in non like dribble
handoff situations like, I think that there

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would need to either be a shift
and somewhat of a relaxation in that scheme,

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or they would need to find players
that better fit playing a Raptors style,

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and that may mean moving one of
the two bigs to get a more

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rangey, mobile four defender and some
way shape or form whichever big that is.

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But I mean, I still think
this can be a good team if

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it's a different coach. Obviously my
opinion would change somewhat there. I'd have

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to know what they were going to
be doing, but I think they could

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be competitive in a first round,
depending upon the matchup. I don't think

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that they have much of a chance
to be competitive against Brooklyn or Milwaukee.

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Maybe if they got better at how
they would scheme against jel Embiid, because

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that's a matchup that Miles, Turner
and both sa Bonus have had issues with.

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I might see my way towards that
being you know, I lasting like

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six games, like, I don't
see them getting out of a series with

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either of those three teams as currently
constructed. I like all five players individually,

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and I think that sometimes in the
Turner and Sabonis debate, if you

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were to ask me, like,
oh, which four fits with Miles and

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which four would fit with Sabonis,
the other player would have a lot of

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those characteristics. It's just a matter
of do these people all fit cohesively at

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the same time. And I think
overall there is a limited ceiling to it.

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So I think that they can be
better than they were next year.

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It's just a matter of is that
good enough. There's also the element of

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and I wouldn't, you know,
remake the roster because of these two guys,

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But you have TJ. McConnell and
Doug McDermott entering free agency. Your

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I think they're going to enter the
off season like just there's a lot of

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stuff that goes into it. But
depending on what they do with some of

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their non guarantees, they're going to
be within ten million dollars of attacks and

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so you're not going to fit both
of those guys into that amount. And

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so I'm curious as to whether you
expect both of them to be back or

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if you only expect or you could
only have one of them back, who

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is is more important to this team
immediately and even longer term? Right?

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So, I mean Kevin Pritchard seemed
to indicate that both of them have two

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feet in both of them would like
to return. I don't think you're going

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to be retaining both of them and
remaining under the luxury tax clearly. So

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I would have some questions for the
Pacers. I mean, how do they

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feel about Aaron Holiday? What's the
system going to be? Are you gonna

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do see yourselves as staggering Caris LeVert
and Malcolm Brogden and having both of them

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man a lot of the point minutes? And also if they do see themselves

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potentially moving a big even if that
doesn't happen in the off season, like

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which one of the two of them, are they leaning towards Because I think

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if I'm retaining Sabonus, I know
that the general line of thought is that

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shooters are more replaceable, but I
don't think that necessarily. Chemistry in the

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way that those two gel together is
and I don't think it's probably can't be

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understated. For Doug that like,
yeah, he's a movement shooter, but

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not everybody reads screens the way that
he does and can cut the way that

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he does. He loves moving out
of the left corner to his right.

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Sabonis is left handed and loves running
dribble handoffs on the left side of the

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floor, and that lets them fit
really well together. And they just have

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a wave link there. I mean, the number one assist combo on the

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Pacers was Sabonis to Doug McDermott.
There are two man game works well.

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So if I was retaining Sabonis,
I might lean that way a little bit.

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If I'm leaning towards Miles Turner,
I might lean towards TJ. McConnell,

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especially if you're going to keep with
Nate b Orkran, because TJ.

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McConnell fits the system to a t
on both ends of the floor, and

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he's going to give you more playmaking, and if you're not gonna have Sabonis,

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you've got to make up that playmaking
some way. But then I kind

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of weigh the lineups that you might
have against each other, and I question,

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like, Okay, if TJ.
McConnell's gone and you're playing you know,

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Aaron Doug Justin O'Shea goga, that's
not a lot of playmaking. And

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I don't know what the reads that
Aaron was making this year that I would

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trust that very much. But on
the flip side, if it's you know,

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TJ. Edmund Sumner Justin o'she goga. If Edmund Sumner and oshe shooting

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doesn't hold, that's not a lot
of shooting. So I think generally the

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thought is that backup point guards are
harder to find, and t J McConnell,

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I think flat out one probably three
or four games for the Pacers.

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That sounds crazy, But if you
wouldn't have played in like the game where

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he had the steel triple double against
the Calves, and I know how sad

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of a statement that is to make, the Pacers would not have won that

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game. So I think he's gonna
help you win more regular season games.

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But then I think an important question
is to which one of them would be

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more useful in the playoffs, And
right now that's a little bit tough to

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project because we didn't see a team
making adjustments. They played two play in

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games that were blowouts, and there
wasn't necessarily a lot of exaggerated game planning

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there. But TJ did get played
off the floor by game four of the

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series against the Heat because of some
of the issues with off ball spacing and

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because they have Karras who can run
a little bit more. Point now,

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it's reasonable to think that TJ might
be playing off the ball in a playoff

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series. So there's just a lot
to consider there. My guess is that

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Dog's gonna command more money, like
I could see him getting the full mid

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level, which would then lead me
to think that TJ McConnell is going to

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be the easier one to retain.
But that's my long, twisty answer to

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your question. This is an aside
from the actual podcast, Caitlin, but

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nape Jorkin was just fired. Yeah, that's pretty big news. Do you

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have any immediate thoughts as to their
decision to to I guess let him go,

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and obviously we're still I'm sure as
we're talking about this, they'll release

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the list of prospective candidates. But
do you ultimately think that based off everything

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that happened, not just off the
court, but you mentioned a bunch of

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00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:49,480
stuff on the court this year,
without knowing who the next head coach is,

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is your guests that or even just
knowing who's on the coaching market right

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now, is your guest that they
should be able to find a tangible upgrade?

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Right So, the Pacers have been
connected did to Mike D'Antoni. They

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were connected to him last year during
the search. There's also been some rumblings

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about Terry Stotts since his exodus from
Portland and Steve Clifford. It depends.

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I don't really know, even from
the postgame presser, now that we know

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that Nate Yorkan's out, which type
of team that they exactly want to be.

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They dialed up the pace st Tour
at the back end of the season,

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but then Kevin Pritchard and the postgame
presser talked about they need to return

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to a hard hat defensive mentality.
So you know, Steve Clifford does know

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00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,960
how to coach defense. But you
also, I don't think, want to

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lose some of the progress that you
made on the offensive into the floor and

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some of that innovation. And I
don't think you clearly wouldn't if that was

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Mike D'Antoni. I do question overall
if they'll be hesitant to go with another

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first time higher and maybe that leads
them to go with a more established name.

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And I mean they interviewed probably around
twenty There was a long long list

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of profiles that I wrote last year, and I liked Dan Craig. I

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thought he did some really good things
from the Heat and now assisting the Clippers.

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But one name that I would like
to see, and I know that

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a lot of Pacer two behind that
i'd like to see get a little bit

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more interest this go around Becky Hammond. But I don't know what her situation

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is with the Spurs and and maybe
the Celtics. Seems like her name circulating

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up there. And that's a whole
nother piece of this, that the Pacers

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are going to be in competition with
both Boston and Portland for perhaps established coaches

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in the market. So and you
seem to be spot on there because also

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00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:26,319
followed up the news that the Pacers
are expected to go with a more experienced

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and established head coach, So that
point about them being reticent to go with

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a first timer is spot on obviously. And then I think the name that

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came out probably supports Jake Fisher right
now is Terry Stotts has become increasingly linked

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to their position, and that would
fit with what Woud said in terms of

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00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:52,200
the experience. I don't know whether
he would improve the team, you know,

356
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,440
by a noticeable degree on defense,
but if they're looking for someone who's

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experienced then who seemed to really have
the support of his players, I guess

358
00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:03,000
that would be a name that because
even if Steve Clifford has always seemed like

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00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:04,640
that guy and he comes with the
cachet of I feel like every team he's

360
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:11,160
coached has gotten better defensively, right
And I know that a lot of people

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that I've talked to you out of
Portland have talked about Terry stots as a

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00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,799
culture setter as well, and clearly
that's something that would need to be reset

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after the last year. These questions
I have for you now are less dependent

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00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:25,559
on a coaching aspect. I appreciate
you rolling with us through this breaking news.

365
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,920
But what were your impressions of Carous
Labert through his thirty five game sample

366
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,200
with the Pacers that was ultimately short
to begin with, but then cut even

367
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,119
shorter because he entered the least health
and safety protocols when it seemed like he

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00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,079
was playing for the most part really
well. Right, So, I don't

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think we'll have a full picture on
carrass until probably next season. I know

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that he mentioned at times that given
his diagnosis and then having to undergo surgery

371
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,720
to treat cancer, that his conditioning
wasn't quite where he wanted it to be.

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But as you say, like especially
in the month of May, he

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really turned it on and got to
handle the ball more Brogden was out with

374
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the hamstring injury and really got to
develop that chemistry with Sabonis because of that.

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00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:08,039
And that doesn't mean that I don't
think he can play with Brogden.

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00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,160
It just gave him more opportunity,
more time of possession to kind of find

377
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his feel with Sabonis as a role
man, because you could see that kind

378
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,279
of early on when he first came
that he would do a little bit of

379
00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,839
shot hunting and wasn't finding Miles or
Sabonis on the pick and roll. But

380
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,640
then in the last over like the
last fifteen games, he really did as

381
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,319
assist rate went up, his assist
raw numbers went up, and yeah,

382
00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,880
as you say, I mean even
his three point shooting was up over forty

383
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,000
or the last several games. So
a lot to like from Carris. I

384
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,640
think one of the things that surprised
me is like, we knew what he

385
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,599
could do with ball screens, but
in the Nate Borkan system at least he

386
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,119
had more opportunities to come off of
iverson cuts and make some reads coming off

387
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,599
of screens. And he's not Doug
McDermott in the sense that he's gonna fly

388
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:55,519
off and shoot a catching three in
motion, but the way he reads those

389
00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:59,640
picks to get himself open and the
reads he can make out of blitzes that

390
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,279
was off that I didn't fully know
that he had. That shined over the

391
00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:04,759
last couple of weeks. He just
is really good at making reads and you

392
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,920
can run really streamline stuff and he
can do a lot with it. So

393
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,319
the defensive ends a little bit different
story. You can't do the same things.

394
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:15,079
You can't do the same things with
Carrots that you could do with Victor,

395
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,680
and that shows up fairly often.
One possession that I would like to

396
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,200
point out, they were getting a
viscerated by the Hawks in Atlanta out of

397
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,240
the pick and roll with Trey Young
and Clint Capella, and they are running

398
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:30,079
single side, so t J McConnell
was guarding Bogdon Bogdanovich and he would naturally

399
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,720
be the weak side tagger. But
you're going to have to come off a

400
00:25:32,759 --> 00:25:36,039
shooter in order to do it.
And if that was Victor, they would

401
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:37,519
be able to tag from the side
where the wings filled, even if it's

402
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:41,839
the strong side, because he's so
good at getting out and even exing up

403
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,359
to the top, Carrots doesn't always
have the recognition even to come over and

404
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,880
tag let alone. I don't think
he quite has the recovery speed of Victor

405
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,759
to be able to do those types
of things, and some of his off

406
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,240
ball defense needs to This isn't even
a word, but I would call it

407
00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:00,039
a little bit spacey, where he
loses what he's supposed to be doing in

408
00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:08,200
those settings. So I think that
that needs some fine tuning. But you

409
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,480
know, hopefully they can get a
coach in there that will do that because

410
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,119
that used to be something you could
rely on with the old coaching staff and

411
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,519
Dan Burke that they would get development
out of wings. T J. Warren

412
00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:19,200
showed a lot of growth last year, even just over the first month of

413
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,799
the season and really tightening the screws
on some of the things that he was

414
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,920
doing as a defender. So hopefully
they can bring into some new guy who

415
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,880
will be able to get a little
bit more out of him in that sense.

416
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,799
Yeah, the off ball defensive stuff
dates like back to basically the start

417
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,359
of his career in Brooklyn. I
don't know if that has Like he's played

418
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,400
for, including the Pacers, like
eighty different teams over the course of his

419
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,480
career, but I don't know if
that has anything to do with it.

420
00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:47,680
Do you trust him though, is
a primary initiator for the offense because when

421
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,920
you and I think you mentioned it
already at this podcast, when you look

422
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,400
at the makeup of this roster,
it kind of has to be like it's

423
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,200
him and Brogden and then like you
said, Ma, like you bring McConnell

424
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:57,960
back. But it seems like they
have to be when you're looking at traditional

425
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,039
point of attack guys where it's not
so much gonna be. Yeah, you

426
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:04,160
can run stuff through a bonus,
but those perimeter oriented players, do you

427
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,359
trust him to be that person for
the offense? Yeah, I mean he

428
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,160
was doing it towards the back end
of the season because Brogden was out.

429
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,599
I mean when t J McConnell was
on the floor, TJ was doing a

430
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,200
little bit more of it and his
time of possession was down. But Kearris

431
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,920
is not, I mean to put
it lightly, His off ball shooting numbers

432
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,079
when he's in catch and shoot settings
for his entire career usually settle in the

433
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,799
low thirties. So to a certain
extent, it just it feels like a

434
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:33,079
more natural fit for Brogden to givee
getting more spot opportunities and be doing stuff

435
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,880
out of second side attacks. With
his ability to dribble, catch and shoot,

436
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,839
he can just kind of do more
things in that general regard. And

437
00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:42,920
but Brogden has said since the time
that he was in Milwaukee that he thinks

438
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,599
his best position is point guard,
and I think he definitely can play point

439
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:49,200
There seems to be a little bit
of a general movement that he just needs

440
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,880
to be a spot up guy.
But I definitely think you can run offense

441
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,039
through him. He didn't get to
run quite as much middle pick and roll

442
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,400
this year as the year before,
and I think that hurt the Pacers in

443
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,400
certain settings because team started ducking under
because the Pacers literally only had one guy

444
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,720
who could get downhill for a couple
of months out of the season when TJ

445
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,839
and Carris were both sidelined, So
it made it easy to kind of bog

446
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,599
down their offense by doing that,
and when they weren't running stuff through the

447
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,880
middle, it made it harder to
get rescreens for him to be able to

448
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,480
attack. But they both can do
it. And I don't really ascribe to

449
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:22,799
the theory of like, oh,
there's only one ball or I don't think

450
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:26,519
that you can have enough playmaking and
that's something that Carris does I have over

451
00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:29,720
Victor. I do think he's a
better pass or overall than Victor. I

452
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:32,200
mean, even just what I mentioned
before, just his ability to pass out

453
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,000
of traps is better than what it
was than what Victor was going back to

454
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:40,599
that series against Cleveland. So there's
more passing and they're both generally willing passing.

455
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,200
I think there's sometimes that Carris can
do a little bit of shot hunting

456
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,240
but I think that they're both willing
to share the basketball, so with the

457
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:51,079
right coaching staff, I definitely think
that it can work. Whether it will

458
00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:53,759
and whether they're willing to make the
sacrifices for it too is another question.

459
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,279
But from a basketball sense, I
think it can be a good fit.

460
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,119
And there's probably just a rush always
to like, not every offense has to

461
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:06,160
be like heliocentric is said. Part
now is called it like playmaking by committee

462
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,200
seems fine, and Carrots got a
ton of reps even before he was in

463
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,559
Indiana with Brooklyn because of all those
injuries and just inconsistent roster construction, and

464
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:17,920
he really, I would say borderline
shined as a passer there, and like

465
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,279
he said, he will kind of
shot hunt, especially from those in between

466
00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:22,359
ranges. But I actually kind of
like the idea. I like him better

467
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,759
offensively for this team, I think
than Victor Rolodipo, just based on the

468
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,880
way that they're they're currently built.
Even if you thought Victor Oldipo's health issues

469
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,039
aside that his peak individually might just
be higher as a player, and probably

470
00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:38,160
because of the difference making he had
the potential to do on the defensive end.

471
00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:41,799
But I feel like Caros Lavert is
kind of a slightly more well rounded

472
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,720
offensive player. Yeah, I agree
with that for what I said from the

473
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,319
passing standpoint, and I think,
you know, we didn't get many opportunities

474
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,200
last year to see TJ. Warren
and Victor play together with the aside of

475
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,960
the bubble and TJ Warren, because
Victor was kind of in the deluded state

476
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,599
and TJ. Warren had really established
himself. You didn't have to do a

477
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,640
lot of fit finagling there because it
was kind of revealing it on its own.

478
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440
I'll be interested to see how the
two of them playoff of each other.

479
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,359
But I think just the fact that
because Carris can do more as a

480
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:15,000
facilitator where TJ. Warren is definitely
more score first and doesn't necessarily have that

481
00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:18,359
in his bag, that I can
see my way toward even though there is

482
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,720
a little bit of overlap and how
their games are, especially what you said

483
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,799
and being in the in between range, I think that it can be more

484
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,880
feasible perhaps than even with Victor in
that sense. Well, you answered the

485
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,720
second part of this question already for
me. Whether you like leverts fit next

486
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:36,680
to Warren better than Warren's next to
deepot, do you have any you know,

487
00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:40,680
expectations for Warren next season, Like, is this something where we should

488
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,519
expect there to be sort of a
steeper grace period because he missed basically all

489
00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:48,039
year with that left foot injury.
Just do you have any general expectations for

490
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,799
what he can do for this roster, what to expect from the next season,

491
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,559
or you know, do they view
him, should he still be treated

492
00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:56,759
as a core piece with he's extension
eligible now and he's also has twenty twenty

493
00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:02,000
two free agency on the horizon,
and people still do remember the bubble performance

494
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,559
that he had. He could be
quite an expensive player to keep around long

495
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,160
term, right, So, I
mean the entire end of game press presser

496
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,960
from Kevin Pritchard felt a lot of
it like it was like a giant love

497
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,079
letter to TJ. Warren. I
mean they talked a lot about it,

498
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,000
did I mean, they talked a
lot about how much they missed him,

499
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:25,160
just as being their top score from
a year ago, the strides that he

500
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,640
had made in the bubble, and
that he was a fourth quarter scorer and

501
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,440
a fourth quarter defender, and talked
about him being able to guard other guys

502
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,599
to our other team's top guys.
And while I did quibble a little bit,

503
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,039
like they brought up how you know, at the end of the year

504
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:40,960
we were having to have you know, O'Shea or other people guardianas, I'm

505
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,720
like, well, TJ didn't really
Guardiana slash year either. He was.

506
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:45,480
I mean, this is gonna sound
strange, but I do think that TJ

507
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,559
might be their best on ball defender. There was times this season beforehand where

508
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,319
like they would put him on possessions
on Devin Booker, they would put him

509
00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:59,079
possessions on Jamal Murray and Justin Holiday
did some of that because Malcolm Brogden's strengths

510
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:00,640
really aren't point of attack, and
you can do that with TJ a little

511
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,000
bit, but I mean they aren't
wrong, and how much they didn't miss

512
00:32:05,039 --> 00:32:09,119
him from both standpoints, I mean, you're not going to go very far

513
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:12,839
in the NBA when both of your
starting wings are not in the rotation,

514
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,720
and they did get eviscerated by bigger
wings and most like a lot of games,

515
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,599
and not even just like elite ones
like like Jannis and I don't mean

516
00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:23,440
this with any disrespect, but like
Harrison Barnes, O Gana, Nobi mckel

517
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:27,519
Bridges, like all these guys.
I think McKell bridges had as highest scoring

518
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,519
outing of the year against the Pacers
because they just didn't really have anybody that

519
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:34,519
could They could check wings, and
it's easier to manipulate that when he's in

520
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:37,279
there, whether it's going to be
that he's doing more stuff on ball,

521
00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:40,079
or whether it's going to be brogged
in. But it sounds like he has

522
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,000
interests and sticking around. I mean, obviously there was the reporting that he

523
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,880
had requested a trade. He shot
that down and Kevin Pritcher did, but

524
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:52,400
there was also subsequent reporting from J. Michael at the Indianapolis Star that he

525
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,799
likes being in a small market and
has enjoyed his time in Indiana, which

526
00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,480
he seemed to reiterate during exit interviews. So I see him as a key

527
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:05,000
piece. But as you say,
they can't, I don't know what the

528
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,480
full amount they can offer him an
extension is right now before the season starts,

529
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:10,519
but I think it's significantly less than
what he would be able to get

530
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:14,839
in free agency. So it does
make the money tied if they aren't going

531
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,839
to make some other type of a
trade. Yeah, I think it's one

532
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,160
hundred and twenty percent of what would
be next season salary, and I guess

533
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,119
he's coming off of injury, so
maybe he thinks of accepting that. But

534
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:29,440
if I were him, I'd probably
gamble going into free agency at this point.

535
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,839
And he I guess he and boy
Bardonovitch are probably like two of Dan

536
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,599
Burke's like big wins when you look
at his trays. Obviously Burke is no

537
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,599
longer with the team, but just
you look at how much those guys improved

538
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,160
defensively where you can even kind of
see it in Utah now, like they're

539
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,240
okay, Like they had bogey On
Kauai for stretches in the Clippers in Game

540
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:50,480
one and he did okay, Like
he can play a physical brand of one

541
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,480
on one defense. And then Warren
when you just look at how he played,

542
00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:55,599
and I know the stakes are different
from Phoenix to Indiana, but like

543
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,440
he improved exponentially on the defensive end
during that first year with the Pacers.

544
00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:04,640
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I
pointed that out in our article, Like,

545
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,880
and I'm not trying to pretend that
Luke Kennard is an elite player,

546
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,880
but he's somebody that's been a killer
against the Pacers over lots of games,

547
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,559
and they played Detroit like three times
early in the season a year ago,

548
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,960
and TJ. Warren't struggled in that
matchup, Like there were times where he

549
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,679
was effectively setting like friendly fire screens. His footwork wasn't good and he was

550
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,960
almost screening his own guy even when
they were over in preseason in India,

551
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,719
he had moments where I like,
I'm mentioning with Keris Lavert, like where

552
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,000
he would he would lose track of
people away from the ball or whether it

553
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:37,360
was supposed to be him who was
sinking on week side rotations, and then

554
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,960
they play like literally it was about
a week or two weeks later and he's

555
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,960
defending Luke Nard again, and not
just whether Luke was making or missing shots,

556
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,079
Like his literal execution of what he
was supposed to be doing on defense

557
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:52,719
was like night and day. So
yeah, I mean, definitely a kudos

558
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,119
to Dan Burke for that went in
for TJ. I mean, because I

559
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:59,679
will say it's not universal. Jeremy
Lamb didn't make the same strides that TJ

560
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,199
did. Obviously put in the work
to get better as well, but that's

561
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,760
always been a concern, Like when
I've had conversations about Carriss is, will

562
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,039
can we trust that this will actually
get better? And prior to you felt

563
00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,239
pretty good about it. But TJ
certainly made strides as a defender last year.

564
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:19,000
I was about to say, if
this question is kind of loaded now

565
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:21,119
that the Pacers don't have a head
coach, but they were kind of in

566
00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:23,079
flux when we started recording this podcast
anyway, so it was always going to

567
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:27,639
be a loaded question. But when
you look at sort of the three main

568
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,760
pleasant surprises from the season for Indye
from ohe Brishett, Edmund Sumner and then

569
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,719
Baby Shack himself Kelan Martin, is
there one that intrigues you the most long

570
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,880
term or you think is most important
to this team over the longer term?

571
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,079
Right? So, Edmund and Nosche
were two reasons to like keep watching the

572
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:50,679
Pacers while they dealt with a myriad
of injuries towards the back half and had

573
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,559
kind of all this drama swirling around
them. Edmund really improved. You watch

574
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:58,840
him and it looks like a shooting
mechanics have got better and he doesn't.

575
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,239
He does more. A lot of
what he does originates in the corner,

576
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,639
but he doesn't just go there and
stand in the corner. He's a great

577
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,880
slasher, but he made really good
use of cutting on penetration and also like

578
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,480
on banana cuts and O Shae Brissette
was just kind of a revelation, like

579
00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:15,119
that's been a hole that the Pacers
have had for a long time at the

580
00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:20,159
backup four spots. So I might
lean and which one's more important. As

581
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,000
much as I love the Edmund Sumter
experience and just watching like his raw speed

582
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:28,000
and the open floor and his ability
to leak out and transition, I might

583
00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:31,079
lean towards Brissette just because they don't
have as much depth at the four spot.

584
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:35,400
And I think that there's a trickle
down effect by having him that if

585
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,960
you can play him minutes at backup
for then Justin isn't doing it anymore and

586
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,880
he's not getting worn down as the
season goes, because I think it was

587
00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:46,480
in April late March his three point
shooting really took a hit, and some

588
00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:50,320
of that just happens by shooters naturally, but he just looked worn down.

589
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,559
I mean, like I mentioned earlier, he would with the starting lineup.

590
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:55,679
At times he would be guarding the
other team's guard, like Colin Sexton or

591
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,239
whoever it may be, and then
he comes in with the bench, and

592
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,599
he comes in and fours and a
fochet. Brissette can do that. I

593
00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:05,679
think you can get him more to
his natural position and hopefully get more out

594
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,159
of everybody. But you hope that
o'she can continue shooting the three the way

595
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,599
that he did, because he does
a lot as a weak side defender,

596
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,920
and the pacers so often their weak
side help just wouldn't be there. And

597
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,760
he's a guy that can move sideline
to sideline really well, shuffles his feet

598
00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:22,360
and could perhaps like contest a shot
from three and still get back. And

599
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,400
I mean I've seen him get blocks
as a weak side room protector a few

600
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,480
times this year, so he's an
exciting one to watch continue to develop.

601
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:35,360
Summer was really fun to watch.
If he were like two to four inches

602
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,559
bigger, I might be inclined to
pick him out of this three. But

603
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,159
I asked. I kind of feel
like the answer was clearly what you said

604
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:44,039
with Brissette. And also, you
know, I love me some justin holiday.

605
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:45,840
I know you said he's overstretched the
most backup for minutes, but one

606
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,800
of the most malleable just glue guys
in the NBA over the past few years.

607
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,920
I think when you look at Kevin
Pritchard's postseason comments, it was sort

608
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,599
of like a he fell short of
Neil Ochett in Portland saying we need a

609
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:02,239
coach who's gonna amplify this roster without
it making any changes. But he seemed

610
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,920
to kind of like when you look
at what Pritchard said, like he wasn't

611
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,440
expecting any major changes to the Pacers
roster was kind of saying that. That

612
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,559
being said, just given as we
already talked about McConnell and McDermott entering free

613
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:16,079
agency, maybe they do want to
increase some flexibility to keep both of them.

614
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:19,039
And I do agree with what you
said since I didn't get to this

615
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:22,320
before that I would imagine Doug McDermott
does get the full mid level, like

616
00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:28,119
his value as a movement shooter.
Obviously you mentioned dude shooting like sixty something

617
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:30,039
percent on twos this year, shot
over fifty two percent on drive and so

618
00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:32,519
I think he's going to intrigue a
ton. But if they wanted to go

619
00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:37,400
that route of whether it's just a
change or increasing flexibility, is there a

620
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,719
player that you look at on this
roster who would be most likely to be

621
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:46,119
traded before next season. I mean, Jeremy Lamb after returning from injury.

622
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:49,920
I give him credit because he was
shooting the three very well and from an

623
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,559
offensive standpoint, it was kind of
miraculous in the sense that he just didn't

624
00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:55,840
look different, like he was still
gliding and getting to his spots as if

625
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,519
he was never injured. As I
mentioned before, his defense leaves quite a

626
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:02,800
bit to be desired, and in
this system that got exaggerated more. I

627
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,400
mean, he comes out at really
awkward angles on closeouts, and when you're

628
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,159
constantly playing in scramble mode, that
gets amplified. But they're all they were

629
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,840
also trying to find really weird spots
to get him minutes, like he would

630
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:22,239
be playing at the four with McConnell
and McDermott and Goga out there at times,

631
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:27,119
and Aaron Holiday because they wanted to
get those guys minutes or maybe swap

632
00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:30,039
out Aaron Holiday with Edmund Sumner,
and that's just that's not going to be

633
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:34,400
a great fit for Jeremy, and
I feel like Edmund really established himself well

634
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,039
towards the back end of the season, where I don't know that I could

635
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:39,559
justify telling Edmund that he's not going
to be getting minutes anymore after what he

636
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,000
did to earn the minutes that he
got, and it kind of just worked

637
00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:45,719
out because Jeremy was dealing with nis
orness, so he wasn't in the lineup.

638
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,840
But I don't know how viable it
would be to kind of try to

639
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,320
offload his salary, but that's one
move that I could see them making,

640
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,280
just to try to do some consolidation
and make their rotation a little bit clear,

641
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:00,360
of course, depending upon which time
of coach they hire, because there

642
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,760
was spots. I will say,
like they played the third game against the

643
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,719
Miami Heat in the way that the
Heat were blitzing and then kind of taking

644
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,559
away the rim that was leaving the
flow to range open. And Jeremy's a

645
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:15,880
guy who you feel good about putting
in in a lineup in that situation and

646
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,440
still being able to score. He
did good things against Toronto's three two zone.

647
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,000
The Pacers were really struggling to score
against it in that game, and

648
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,119
he came in and drew some fouls
and was able to get into the soft

649
00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:28,840
spots. So I mean, he
does have value if he can be healthy.

650
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,760
It's just that they have a lot
of players at that particular position right

651
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,039
now, and then you know,
I'm with you. It seemed like they

652
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:39,000
felt like they were going to keep
the starting five intact and see, like

653
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:45,320
now what a new coach can do
with that grouping. And I'm not completely

654
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,039
opposed to it, but I wouldn't
say I'm committed to it either. And

655
00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:51,960
the one downside to this, which
you could see late in the year,

656
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:57,280
is what you would do was sabonus
at the five defensively is very different than

657
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,280
what you would do with Miles defensively. So if they do think they're going

658
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,639
to make a move there, I
think it would be beneficial to the new

659
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:07,119
coach to know that, because it
was very hard for Sabonis to step into

660
00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:09,440
a funneling system late in the year
when there's no way that you're going to

661
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:14,760
change that mid season. But if
they're going to be committed to it and

662
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,719
they really want to see how it
works, then that's one thing. But

663
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,440
I guess my next answer would be
a big I won't say which one because

664
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,840
I don't feel like getting yelled at
by Twitter, but that would be the

665
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,039
most likely person that would get moved, especially if they just wanted to add

666
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:32,119
more depth at the four spot in
the starting lineup. Just two quick questions

667
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:36,360
before I get you out of here. If we're I think we're both assuming,

668
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:37,960
and I think everyone's assuming that the
crux of this roster's going to remain

669
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,239
in place. You were pretty critical
of their defense at different points. You

670
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,199
were pretty critical of their defense during
this podcast. Actually, do they have

671
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:51,360
the personnel when left alone at full
strength to be much better? You know,

672
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,239
they were dead last in the share
of opponent attempts that came at the

673
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,719
rim. Was that just a byproduct
of poor transition defense? Is there's something

674
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,639
more sinister at play? Do you
think that they're you know, did their

675
00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:04,800
commitment to zone at points really betray
them? So? Was it really more

676
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,639
of a coaching thing or even availability
thing when you look at the personnel,

677
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,079
or do you think that there needs
to be like there's still something missing from

678
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:15,199
this roster that would prevent them from
being a lot better defensively. Well,

679
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:16,639
I mean, I think it's kind
of all of the above. I think

680
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:20,000
that the one thing I keep hanging
my hat on though, is that this

681
00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:22,679
was a top six defensive team last
year with basically the same roster. I

682
00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:28,159
mean TJ again, that's a loss, but you are starting Jeremy Lamb in

683
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:31,679
place of Victor last year, and
the old coaching staff still managed to put

684
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:37,159
together a top six offense with you
know, Victor only playing a handful of

685
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:43,559
games. So and one other thing
is like there wasn't a massive on off

686
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:47,719
differential and the defensive numbers when Miles
was on versus off last year because they

687
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:54,159
just managed to scheme things better and
they kept Sabonus's radius closer to the basket

688
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,840
than what you'll see this year.
I mean I pointed that out. I

689
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,920
think from the nons some standpoint that
they didn't always get consistent effort, but

690
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,519
I think some of that comes from
coaching too and holding guys accountable. But

691
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:10,719
the system, like I said,
was mismatched I think with the roster and

692
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,639
what you said with the zone I
think is very prescient because when you're trying

693
00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:17,760
to run that many different I mean
the two three, nor the box in

694
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,840
one or the triangle and two ever
seemed very settled. It didn't seem like

695
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,599
they understood what their roles within that
were supposed to be. And some of

696
00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:28,960
that might come from what you've mentioned, like so many different lineups having been

697
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,719
there, but like bump downs were
non existent. I don't know why they

698
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,920
were trapping the wing in a two
three zone. And if they were going

699
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,079
to trap the wing in a two
three zone in certain games, why you

700
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:44,760
weren't in past denial mode doing that. Those types of questions are definitely worth

701
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,840
asking. And when you're rotating through
that many different types of coverages, I

702
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,679
think it can be hard. But
what you bring up about the opponent rim

703
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,280
percentage or rim frequency, I think
that's about like a three prong thing.

704
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,119
Yes, their transition defense had a
lot of issues towards the back end of

705
00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:02,920
the season for several technical reasons that
I won't get into, but they also

706
00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:07,639
like when your ball you're when you're
probably that much ball pressure, you're giving

707
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:12,079
up an odd man advantage. And
then Miles Turners having to commit and sell

708
00:44:12,119 --> 00:44:15,360
out for blocks or sabonus Is having
to sell out for contests and made it

709
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:16,960
harder for them to rebound. And
they don't have a lot of top rebounders,

710
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,159
so they also ranked very low and
second chance points, so that's points

711
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:22,920
that they're getting around the basket,
whether you know sometimes those will be kick

712
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,760
out threes, But those are some
of the reasons, and then Sabonus just

713
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,639
isn't going to protect the basket as
well in the minutes that he's out there

714
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:35,320
than Miles is when you're doing so
much funnel funnel funnel, which is where

715
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,039
I go back to the two bigs. If you're gonna have Sabonus out there,

716
00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:40,480
you're gonna be I would think my
gut inclination is that you would be

717
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:44,960
pushing more of that and using baseline. Sideline is more of a fifth and

718
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,639
six or sixth and seventh man,
which is interesting because in the preseason they

719
00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:52,199
were they were icing more side pick
and rolls, and then once the regular

720
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,559
season started they were pretty much having
him exclusively hedge those. So when you're

721
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:59,400
funneling stuff to him, he doesn't
have the wingspan nor the timing to be

722
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,760
doing what my does as a pick
and roll defender. So that's certainly contributing

723
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,639
factor. But the opponent rim frequency
was also like third in the league.

724
00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:08,079
Even in the minutes when Miles was
out there. They just don't have any

725
00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:12,480
rim deterrence. They don't keep people
out of the paint. And some of

726
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,119
it goes back to like what I
just said their stances even when they come

727
00:45:15,159 --> 00:45:17,840
to the nail, they're just funneling
people right down the lane. So my

728
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,679
inclination is, because of what the
numbers were last year, that you can

729
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,440
get it better than what it was. But you've also subbed out a few

730
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,199
people with Carris. I don't know
what TJ. Warren's going to look like

731
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,920
coming back from a foot injury,
so I'm somewhat hesitant. I don't think

732
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,760
that they have a silver bullet for
how they're going to defend people like you

733
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,440
know, Jannis Ben Simmons, Pascal
Sehawkum, I don't. I don't know

734
00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:42,159
that that's going to be answered internally, and you're just gonna have to find

735
00:45:42,159 --> 00:45:45,519
other ways to cover for that,
or somebody who can creatively come up with

736
00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:49,239
different coverages. I would have been
interested to see. And I know people

737
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,760
probably look at the overall team defense
too much rather than you know on offs

738
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,960
here. But had Myles turn never
had the you know, miss a ton

739
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,480
of time with the But do you
have a big toe injury and need an

740
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,920
ankle injury? At one point it
didn't even fracture. To this season,

741
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,039
he dealt with a bunch of different
stuff they were in the eightieth percentile of

742
00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:08,079
defensive efficiency when he was on the
court, and opponents were still, like

743
00:46:08,119 --> 00:46:10,719
you said, getting to the rim
a ton. But at testament to his

744
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,840
rim protection that they still performed so
well in those minutes despite letting. When

745
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,280
I looked it up, it was
thirty seven point one percent of their opponent

746
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,159
shot attempts were coming at the rim
with Turner on the court, which is

747
00:46:21,199 --> 00:46:22,960
a huge number. They were just
so good at defending the rim with those

748
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,159
minutes. So he had a fantastic
defensive season, and I'm sure his absences

749
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:31,599
exacerbated the issues, but it couldn't
textually be like a blessing in disguise thing

750
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:36,679
where it helped them realize, like
how far away they were defensively if he's

751
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:38,400
not on the court, because there
are going to be you know, between

752
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:42,559
in a normal season if he stays
there fifteen to twenty minutes a game,

753
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,079
or he's not necessarily on the court, right, I mean, I think

754
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:50,400
that they need to evaluate how much
And I don't mean this in a derogatory

755
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,360
sense to Miles at all, for
all the reasons you just said, like

756
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,159
he's a tremendous pick and roll defender, great rim protector. He can,

757
00:46:57,199 --> 00:46:59,719
He's adaptable in the way that you
can use him in the pick and roll,

758
00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:02,079
more so than Sabonus. But I
think that you need to evaluate how

759
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:07,679
much you're overburdening him to be doing
those things and how much you're willing to

760
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,800
let people even though how well he
depresses that field goal percentage, if that's

761
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,760
completely viable and that if that's going
to be your scheme, then I don't

762
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,920
think you're going to be completely reorienting
it in the minutes when he isn't out

763
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,840
there. So yeah, I mean, they did mention how much they missed

764
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,280
Miles as a rim protector during the
end season press conference, and this is

765
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,639
the second time they've done this because
when they drafted Goga and it was still

766
00:47:29,639 --> 00:47:31,320
the Dan Burke system. They're like, well, one of the most Goga

767
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,440
can block shots and one of the
most important things when we set our defense

768
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,559
as a shot blocker. And I
think Kevin Pritchard said something along the lines

769
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:42,320
in the end the season press are
like, two of the most important things

770
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,039
in the NBA is having a rim
protector and a wing defender. And t

771
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:46,480
J. Warren and Miles were out
and I'm sure some of that was like

772
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,079
trying to provide reason for why they
had such the fall off that they did

773
00:47:52,159 --> 00:48:00,079
without completely sandbagging Buorcan or anybody else. But because you also need to be

774
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:01,599
able to hire a new coach,
so you don't really want to completely back

775
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:07,559
blackball the coach that's leaving. But
yeah, I mean, I think that

776
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:09,679
Miles would have made the defensive situation
towards the end of the season better.

777
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,920
But I can also look at games
like against the Wizards where they still gave

778
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,400
up seventy four paint points in that
game, even in the one that he

779
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,400
played, and they weren't keeping Russell
Westbrook out of the paint. And that's

780
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,760
where I go back to, you
know, maybe don't go overboard with overs

781
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,440
And I do think that they need
to make some scheme adjustments whether they have

782
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:29,039
him or not. And they had
issues toward the last several weeks. I

783
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:30,679
mean the last game he played in
against the Hawks, they were getting ripped

784
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,719
up by Clint Capella on the role
and that's a little bit of my pet

785
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,039
peeve, like that's not him,
that's a team thing. You need to

786
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:38,519
be able to You're not going to
defend that two on two, there's no

787
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:43,199
way you're defending Trey Young two on
two in those situations. So definitely some

788
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,880
refining that they need to do an
evaluation. My final question, and I

789
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,719
feel like I've jumped around a ton
because of Woads here, but is there

790
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:52,199
anything else I didn't ask you?
And I'm there's a ton of things I

791
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,679
didn't ask you, But is there
anything else that I didn't ask you that

792
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,159
you want to talk about or something
that you think needs to be mentioned about

793
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:00,960
this team heading into the offseason.
Are you sad that I didn't ask you

794
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:06,199
more about Malcolm Brogden, Sabonus or
Turner trade packages anything at all. No,

795
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,239
not sad at all about the fake
trades. And I feel like I

796
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,679
need to apologize now. I mean, the listeners aren't going to know this,

797
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,639
but I apologize for the amount of
times that my Internet went out during

798
00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:17,159
this, that my mic didn't work, and that my phone has been constantly

799
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:22,159
pinging about Nate b Orkn being fired. And I also apologize for answers that

800
00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:24,639
now don't reflect that Nate bi Orker
was fired. Hey, look, I

801
00:49:24,679 --> 00:49:29,320
just appreciate you staying on. I
saw the news break while you were talking

802
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,199
about. I think it was the
defense at one point. I can't remember

803
00:49:31,199 --> 00:49:34,519
what question it was. Now I
felt bad that you were just on this

804
00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:37,800
podcast while everything is blowing up in
Pacers Land. Again. We had talked

805
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,320
about before the podcast too, how
kind of quiet it had been by design,

806
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,760
because the Pacers told everybody to take
a beat, and they decided that

807
00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:51,159
that beat was over. Exactly.
This is my life, though, Dan.

808
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,119
Typically this is when stuff happens,
is when I actually have stuff scheduled

809
00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:57,440
with other people, that's when the
news breaks. I'm pretty sure that this

810
00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:00,639
exact same thing happened when Nate McMillan
was fired last year. Was it with

811
00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:02,840
you? I might have been on
a podcast with you and that happened.

812
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:06,599
I don't know. I was on
one with somebody, and then I was

813
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,239
After I got off, I was
like, oh, major news has dropped.

814
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,599
It was definitely not me. I
would have I would never invite you

815
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:15,480
on the podcast again if you had
been had been forced to sit through it

816
00:50:15,599 --> 00:50:19,880
for two head coaching changes. Yeah, well yeah, back to back Nates

817
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,679
are out, so the job is
defined, new new Nate that will guide

818
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:28,199
the Pacers to a championship. But
was there anything else about this team that

819
00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:32,119
you thought need to be covered before
I mercifully release you. No, I

820
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,599
think that you covered it all really
well. I'm impressed by your questions.

821
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:39,760
Oh you're too kind. This team
is fascinating heading into the offseason, not

822
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,440
just because Nate Yorkan was already fired, but when you look on paper,

823
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:46,119
they have one of the deep I
don't it's not a perfectly balanced roster,

824
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:52,000
but it's one of the deepest rosters
in terms of actually good NBA players on

825
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:55,239
it. And they have the potential
to go from sort of this implosive faction

826
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,440
this year to in the thick of
the you know, a top four spot

827
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,079
in the East next year. And
so they're off season is going to be

828
00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:05,360
fascinating. I hope you will let
me bother you again once all that hoopla

829
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:08,840
sort of unfolds before we get into
the next regular season. But if you

830
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,039
guys are not following Caitlyn and you're
listening to this podcast, I have no

831
00:51:13,119 --> 00:51:15,199
idea what you're doing with your lives. Follow her on Twitter at C two

832
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:21,960
Underscore Cooper spelled exactly as it sounds. Fantastic writer for Indie krnrows at Spnation

833
00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:25,079
just knows so much about the NBA. Great follow on Twitter if you're looking

834
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:30,480
for great playoff analysis right now as
well. Caitlyn, thank you, as

835
00:51:30,519 --> 00:51:34,039
always so much for coming on and
giving me and being so generous excuse me

836
00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:37,440
with your time. Thanks again for
inviting me. I really appreciate it.