It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio. Welcome to
Maria's MutS and Stuff. That's the official open. But yes, okay,
so when I saw that you had another book, and I was like,
wait, I know I spoke to her. I know I did, so,
I remember, I remember, right. That was a ways ago.
Let's see twenty twenty. Was that for Jenny the Pink Dolphin? It was?
Uh no, it was the big coffee table book Jellyfish Octopus. It's
this big, gorgeous cause I didn't I didn't write that one. I didn't
write in but you were part of it because I interviewed you. I believe
with that book. Is that possible? I think it was. I think
that was a national geographic book that you were involved with. I was not.
You weren't. But but I have written thirty eight books all about animals.
So so it would be very strange if we hadn't met. Actually,
okay, no, all of my stuff. It might have been about,
say this is twenty twenty though, yeah, twenty twenty. It was.
Yeah, it was January thirtieth, twenty twenty. Oh you know what,
it might have been a good, good pig. It could be, because
you know what I know. Nope, it wasn't at all. I know
exactly what it was. Okay, I know it all right. I believe
I had seen you on CBS Sunday morning, and I think I reached out
to you and you reached out to me. You're absolutely right, right,
octopus. It was about, yes, and because I love octopus and it
was all about the octopus interview that you did on CBS. YEA, good
enough. Well, anyway, congratulations on your new book, Secrets of the
Octopus. And for those who are just tuning in and saying, okay,
you guys are talking like you just went out for tea, Like what's going
on. She is a national best selling author, and she's an animal naturalist
and just someone who I'm so fascinated with because she just has just so much
information. It is Si Montgomery. Thank you again for talking with me and
so this book. First of all, I know you've been referred to as
an octopus whisperer. You know that, yes, yes, okay, let's
talk about that. Tell tell my audience, why do people think or know
that you're the octopus whisperer. Well, it's because I've spent a long time
with my hands and arms in octopus tanks, communing with these very intelligent,
emotional animals. And for the book that we first spoke about, which was
called The Soul of an Octopus, I spent three years getting to know individual
octopuses, seeing them every week, sometimes more than once, spending hours just
communing with them and talking also with researchers who had been investigating their intelligence and
divers who had observed their behavior. I actually learned scuba diving so that I
could meet octopuses in the wild. I remember that YE did that, which
was pretty awesome when that book came out. I mean first, the idea
of an octopus having a soul was intriguing to many people. To me,
I kind of feel like if I have a soul. They particularly animals who
I knew as friends and who welcomed. They turned bright red with excitement when
they saw me and came from their layir to greet me by putting their suckers
all over my skin, and would would look into my eyes and I would
I would stroke their skin. They enjoy gentle touch, and we would play
with toys together. Of course, I felt they had a soul. After
this book came out, it was a real surprise to everyone that became an
international bestseller and got like literary prizes normally reserved for writing about politics and humans
and stuff. And so when National Geographic decided to do a three part television
series called Secrets of the Octopus, they asked me to write the companion book
for it. Ah And in this book I get to I got to talk
to all these wonderful researches, some of whom I knew, all of whose
work I knew, But I got to find out all the new science that
has come out since my first book came out in twenty fifteen. And the
science that's coming out now is shedding a ton of light on the magic of
their camouflage abilities, the amazing intelligence that they have. That chapter is called
gelatinous geniuses. And the third most surprising and interesting to me is that these
animals, of whom there's more than three hundred species and we're finding more practically
every other month. These animals were thought to be largely solitary, that most
species just hated being around other octopuses unless they were mating with them or eating
them, right, But it turns out they are surprisingly social, not only
with octopuses of their own kind in some cases, but in other cases they
form partnerships with other species. Wow, that's fascinating. That's really fascinating.
Yeah. Oh it blew my mind because I kept wondering, you know,
why does octavia bother to be my friends? You know, our kind separated,
Our last common ancestor was half a billion years ago, when everyone was
a tube. Why does she want to be with me? What do I
have to offer? But apparently a number of octopus species recognize that other species
have talents that they appreciate, and one in one partnership that completely blows in
my mind. This fish, it's a marine trout, it is will come.
He'll swim up to the to an octopus do this particular gesture. He
does a headstand in the water, and that is the signal to the octopus.
I have an idea. Let's go hunting together. Goodness, I know
where there are some cool things that we want to eat. So the octopus
then follows his partner, who leads him, often to a coral or rock
crevist, in which the fish, the bony fish who can't get in that
crevist, wants to eat some of the creatures that live in there, but
he can't get in, but the octopus can because the octopus has no boat,
and so the octopus flows into that crevice and outcome this, you know,
delicious outpouring of prey that both species can enjoy. That's it's amazing.
And there's a photo in your book of the octopus doing the handstand right because
it up it's the fish doing the handstand and looking at it amazing and there's
terrific footage shot by Adam Geiger and his team. They spent hours and hours
and hours and hours and hours getting to know individual octopuses. They had rebreathers,
so they could stay down much longer than a normal scuba diver like you.
And in this way, the octopuses got used to them and would allow
Adam and his team to go hunting with them and to just hang out.
And sometimes the octopus would just reach out and touch him and touch the scientists
who are like doctor Alex Schnell, who's the major human character in the series.
She would come along and Adam had already made the acquaintance of the octopus
and she could reach out her hand and the octopus woul reach out. I
love that. I love that. It's so beautiful and it's something that most
people probably don't even think you know or no, yeah, they're like,
what I got to do it? Yeah, of course, you know you
could say that. Even though I did get to meet octopuses in the wild,
most of my friends lived in captivity simply because you know, I live
in New Hampshire, our coastline and several hours drive away and it's really cold,
and octopuses are really hard to study, particularly if not in the tropics,
because a someone may come along and eat them. Yee. They don't
always stay in they move their dens around. See the first time you see
the octopus, it's a red octopus. The next time a minute later,
it's a spotted brown octopus. Then two minutes later it's turned into somebody with
smooth skin and like yellow stripes on it. I mean, you can't even
tell that you're looking at the same octopus. They're really really hard to study,
but scientists are finding their way around it and getting to know individuals both
in the lab and in the wild, and what they're finding out is mindful,
I'm sure. And so you mentioned because of all New science. What
is it that has made so much more information available? Is it technology?
Is it the cameras, like the different way that we have cameras and how
we use them in digital wise, or like, what is it that has
kind of opened the field for it so much over the years. Well,
that is a really good question. And when Adam was asked this very question,
he said, really, you know, there have been some technological advances,
but it's that people are spending more time and being more patient. Wow,
there are more divers interested in octopus. Can When I was researching the
Soul of an octopus in twenty eleven, there was there was Most divers had
never seen an octopus. Most divers I've talked to had never even seen one.
And why Well, because they can become invisible and they can hide from
it, of course. But there has been a real flowering of interest in
octopus since twenty fifteen when my book came out, and part of that is
thanks to a guy, Warren Carlisle, who contributes to all these octo profiles
to the back of the book about different species. He founded the world's largest
octopus fan club called oct Donation, as a result of reading my book,
I Love it, and now he has literally half a billion people have seen
his online posts from our community OC donation, and there's just so much more
interest in octopus. There's so many more eyes out there looking for them.
There's so much more appreciation for the excellent work that people are doing. Some
of the folks who I interviewed have been studying octopus for thirty years, but
in many cases their work was ignored, no one cared. In some cases
it wasn't even published. In some cases it wasn't published because no one would
believe it. But now people believe it, people are interested, and this
has paved the way, for example, that wonderful film My Octopus Teacher,
which they were already filming that when I was working on my book. But
the fact that Soul of an Octopus did so well, I think made a
ready audience for beautiful films like that one, and also a slew of great
new books, including works of fiction that star octopus, like Remarkably Bright Creatures,
which is a huge bestseller. It's a work of fiction, and the
author very generously credits my book. I love that it's litering her. A
lot of this is because of you. You opened the door. I don't
think it's me. It's well, but you think it's the spirits of the
octopuses that I wrote about. Give them credit, I wish, But you
won't give yourself credit. I will. I think you are the were the
catalysts who started it and opened the door for the interest and and oct donation
and just people being interested and not ignoring octopus in the past. Well,
I am sure thrilled that this is this is what has happened, and no
one expected it. I mean, my publisher did not expect this. My
husband was shocked, like I could have dropped to the floor, was shot
right right that A the book did so well unto that it you know,
it was a finalist for this fancy literary prize that usually goes to stuff about
people. That's amazing. It was amazing. It's good for you. So
did you always from like from when you were a child always fascinated by octopus
and had an interest? Or is this something that you saw or heard or
learned from a teacher that kind of made your eyes go huh more so or
it just happened to be like maybe there's not an answer to that. I'm
just wor no, no, there is there's so is. I mean,
I think everyone who's seen in an octopus, who was awake and in an
aquarium has been fascinated by him. And I was too sure. But for
many many years I've written, oh god, this is like my thirty eighth
book, and I'd done like thirty when I when I started doing solod Octopus
in twenty eleven, I did not feel ready until twenty eleven to write a
book about consciousness in a marine invertebrate. I did not feel that I had
the experience or skills to do it, and I didn't feel that readers were
ready to consider it Interestill twenty eleven interesting, and I was right. That
was the time I was in my fifties. Then I'd, you know,
a lot of experience writing about other minds besides humans, write about a number
of mammals and birds. I had written a book for younger readers about Translas,
I'd gotten to know transela Is pretty well, and I'd done some marine
stuff, but I'd never done an in depth book on a marine invertebrate in
a way that would examine the mystery, philosophical mystery of consciousness. So and
I finally felt ready to tackle that, so you just had a gut feeling
on it. I guess I totally did a gut But you don't, you
know, when you when you're writing, or you try to know you know
what what your readers might be hungry for and what you what your soul is
ready to investigate right right now. But that's I mean, yeah, I
just I find it. It's fascinating to me. But I just feel like,
and like I said before, you don't give yourself the credit for it,
but you not only you know in instigated like you instigated the movement,
but you also did it all on a gut feeling. I guess y.
Yeah, I think a lot of writers work on their gut feelings. And
sometimes their gut feeling is right, and sometimes it's wrong, and sometimes you
won't even know in your lifetime if it was right or wrong right, you
know, And that's a great thing about about books is that they will stay
on the shelf, at least in the Library of Congress long after we're gone,
right, and you never know what your your impact is going to be
sure, but what you've just got to do is, you know, offer
your sincere prayer in all of your work that it will do some good in
the world. Well, kudos to you. It's really so. I know
we've talked in the past, but for those who don't know, you know
simple things about octopus, that they can change color, and they have all
these different body patterns. What is something and they have you know, nine
brains is that correct? Nine brains that they have or eight nine brains.
It's as if they have not as if they have one central brain, right,
But most of their neurons are actually in their arms, right, So
that's it. They have eight arms. So you know, a severed octopus
arm can go off and do stuff. It probably can. It can change
color, it could even in theory catch pray, catch prey. But what
they're going to do with it because its mouth is off, you know,
with the rest and you know, thinking of a severed octopus arm fills you
with sorrow. But happily they can regrow their arm and they can regrow it
as good as new. Wow. Okay, that is I was going to
ask you what is the most fascinating or cool fact. Not only is that
it, I'm also still intrigued about the arm that goes off and catches prey.
Does it I guess it eventually dies or yeah, it does because the
octopus has three hearts and they're back with the regular you know, the body.
But it could last, but that arm could go along for a day,
a week. No, oh no, I think it's just a matter
of hour hours. But what's so interesting is that their arms can can do
stuff without going through the central brain. So it's it's almost like, I
mean, they can do very complex things without going through the central brain.
For example, you know a human, you can hit their their knee with
a little hammer and it will reflexively kick and you don't have to think,
like, ow, hit my hammer, better kick. But this is extremely
complex behavior that that arm is capable of doing. And what this means is
they are the premier multitaskers of the world. Not only do they have eight
arms, but each arm can essentially think on its own right and has like
hundreds of suckers on it, these suckers. One of the other amazing things
about octopuses is that they can taste with all of their skin, particularly with
their suckers, and they their suckers are capable of a pincer grip, so
that with their suckers they can untie a knot in surgical silk. Wow.
And some of their suckers a three and a half inch diameter sucker which you
can find on giant Pacific octopuses. That's a big sucker you find on a
big mail. One sucker can lift thirty five pounds. No stop, they
have two hundred of them on each arm. Well, okay, so they
have two hundred suckers on an arm, and one sucker can lift thirty pounds,
so that that would be a big one, and that would be a
big ide of it. So that means that one arm could could lift hundreds
of pounds. Oh ye, absolutely, probably even small octopuses like the common
octopus octopus of vulgarus, which makes it sound like it swears all the time.
That animal is a small animal, but it can it can exert a
quarter ton of force. And so when I was interacting with these animals,
and I was working with giant Pacific octopuses who are much larger. They the
largest can grow to three hundred pounds, I'm dealing with somebody who is tasting
and feeling me at the same time, who is vastly, vastly stronger than
I am, and also an animal who is venomous, And never was I
hurt or frightened in working with these animals. They were totally sweet, curious,
playful. I would say, gentle, very very gentle, very gentle.
I mean I would go home at times with Hickey's all over my arm.
That book funny, It's very funny. Do you remember the very very
first time you ever experienced? Of course? Oh, yes, this so
vivid. Yeah. My now good friend Scott Down lifted the lid to the
tanks that belonged to the resident giant pacific octopus at New England Aquarium. And
her name was Athena, and she was about a forty pound giant pacific octopus.
And I had no idea what to expect, but I did want to
just see what would happen. So he lifts the lids of the tank and
Athena. I see her eyes swivel in its socket and lock onto my face,
and then she flows out of her den. She's turning bright red with
excitement, and like this gorgeous huge silk scarf unfurling in the water, this
bright red octopus starts reaching up to toward me with her white grasping suckers and
so naturally I plunged my hands and arms into the freezing cold water to meet
her. And this was, of course, after Scott said, that's okay.
And then she covered my skin with dozens and dozens of these soft,
questing suckers, and she starts tasting me and feeling me and looking into my
face. And it was so evident to me that this animal is just as
curious about me as I was about Sure she was connecting with you. She
was totally connecting with me. And you know, I don't know that she
was thinking like, oh gee, I want to be friends. I mean,
I don't know what she was thinking, but I know she was interested
because she moved toward, not away from me, and she could have just
watched me from somewhere else, but no, she came toward me. And
during the interaction, when I felt she would feel comfortable, I actually would
stroke her head and she turned white. And white is the color of a
relaxed the puss. So she actually relaxed under my touch and enjoyed my gentle
touch. So here was another thing we had in common. Sure, we
both are curious animals who love to explore. We both enjoy gentle touch.
And later I was to discover that octopuses like us enjoy playing with toys as
well. Wow, and sometimes the same toys our children enjoy, like mister
Potato had and legos. Oh my goodness. This is stuff that people would
never ever, you know, think about or know about it. But it's
so fascinating and so interesting, and I just think it opens people's brains a
little bit more to see. You know. It's just it's not only a
cat and a dog that do certain things exactly exactly. I mean, I
consider our cats and dogs kind of the uh, the gateway drug to loving
all animals. Yes, of course it opens you know, it opens other
animals to you. I agree. A few people get an you know,
they get an opportunity to interact with an octopus, unless you are a diver
and you dive regularly in places where octopuses are. But what this teaches us
is, even if we don't have a chance to get to know an octopus
ourselves, we get to know that the animate world is full of thoughts and
feelings and memories and emotions and types of intelligence that we may not understand,
but that we should reference. That we should be in awe of course,
and I'm hoping that the octopus and the book and the film Secrets of the
Octopus allow this animal to act as an ambassador for us to take better care
of our oceans. Oh well, ze right now, yeah, of course
that is definitely you know, that is the truth, because I'm sure with
all the plastics and all the freights and everything else that interrupts the wildlife and
the oceans and the seas, it's just it's probably you know, bad obviously
for the octopus as well. Yes, it's it's certainly awful. And when
we wreck the ocean, that's where they live, so it's no good.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So Secrets of the Octopus that is
the book. Tell me about the film that it's coming out on Earth Day
correct this year? Is it's a three part it's a three part series and
as folks may know, National Geographic has been bought by Disney, so it
will be on the Disney channels. Wonderful. And this series is organized,
like the book is, into three parts. The first is, you know
the masters of camouflage that octopuses are, how do they do it? They
don't just blend in with the background. Many octopuses assume the false identity of
other creatures. Some can mimic the weather. Some can decide, you know
what, I'm going to con use this predator of mine into thinking that I'm
really a bunch of poisonous sea snakes, and in fifth of a second they
can turn instead into a poisonous flatfish or flounder, and do this so convincingly
looks so much like a flounder that other flounders will follow it. Oodness.
Yeah, that's the ultimate shape shifter, right, that's right. They're totally
shape shifters. Oh my god. And then the third part is to me,
the most astonishing part, and that is called octopus Kingdom, and that
examines their unexpected sociality of these animals that for ages everyone thought was solitary.
But it turns out almost everything we once believed about octopus is wrong. Wow.
Wow, And this is coming out on Earth Day and you are on
the TV special correct. Oh I'm not. I have the perfect face for
radio. Oh stop it, you do not stop it. I saw you
on TV and that's when I was like, I'm reaching out to our that's
not the reason, but you know they'll stop that. I'm supposed to say,
I have the face for radio. Not you, but you will.
You will see all kinds of wonderful researchers who I got to work with you.
Yeah. Well, doctor Alex Schnell is the person who most frequently is
on camera, and she has done some fascinating work both with wild animals and
in the laboratory. She's a great person and I just got to meet her
in La after having many conversations with her on zoom and phone. And I
know that folks who watch this series are just going to fall in love with
her and with the octopuses that she befriends, and all these other wonderful researchers
doing this astonishing work. Well, I can't wait, and I thank you
for all that you do and your influence. Tell me where my listeners can
pick up Secrets of the Octopus your book, Well, it should be everywhere
books are sold, or you can go directly to Secrets of the Octopus dot
com and buy it and that'll connect you with National Geographic and they'll show you
your nearest bookstore or how to order it online. But it should be at
stores all over the place right now, Okay, And I know the book
just came out and I always hate asking this, but I have to because
I know that you can't, especially you the little I do know of you.
You can't stand like sit still. What is next on your agenda?
Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna get my wet suit on again, and I'm
going to do a book for younger readers in you know, the kind of
higher grades five, six, seven, eight about giant man to raise huge
essentially flattened sharks who lived to seventy years old can sail up out of the
water and form relationships like the octopus does and with people. Wow, So
that that will probably be the next time that we chat, I fink,
I hope. So I have to tell you, Si, you side Montcomer,
you are my You are one of my favorite people, probably my favorite
person to speak to. I just I find I love talking to you.
I could talk to you for hours. You just your your stories and and
I think it would make someone who is asleep wake up and be interested because
you're just no seriously, I really truly mean that. I just I really
I do love speaking with you. So I really do appreciate you and your
time and all your knowledge because you make it in a way like I wish
when I was in school I had teachers like you. No, Maria,
it is mutual and here's to the next time. May it be soon that
we get to talk again. I would love that and thank you so very
much. You're this mot See you later, Varmgator