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It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What
a great idea on iHeartRadio. Welcome to

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Maria's MutS and Stuff. That's the
official open. But yes, okay,

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so when I saw that you had
another book, and I was like,

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wait, I know I spoke to
her. I know I did, so,

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I remember, I remember, right. That was a ways ago.

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Let's see twenty twenty. Was that
for Jenny the Pink Dolphin? It was?

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Uh no, it was the big
coffee table book Jellyfish Octopus. It's

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this big, gorgeous cause I didn't
I didn't write that one. I didn't

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write in but you were part of
it because I interviewed you. I believe

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with that book. Is that possible? I think it was. I think

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that was a national geographic book that
you were involved with. I was not.

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You weren't. But but I have
written thirty eight books all about animals.

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So so it would be very strange
if we hadn't met. Actually,

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okay, no, all of my
stuff. It might have been about,

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say this is twenty twenty though,
yeah, twenty twenty. It was.

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Yeah, it was January thirtieth,
twenty twenty. Oh you know what,

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it might have been a good,
good pig. It could be, because

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you know what I know. Nope, it wasn't at all. I know

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exactly what it was. Okay,
I know it all right. I believe

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I had seen you on CBS Sunday
morning, and I think I reached out

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to you and you reached out to
me. You're absolutely right, right,

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octopus. It was about, yes, and because I love octopus and it

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was all about the octopus interview that
you did on CBS. YEA, good

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enough. Well, anyway, congratulations
on your new book, Secrets of the

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Octopus. And for those who are
just tuning in and saying, okay,

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you guys are talking like you just
went out for tea, Like what's going

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on. She is a national best
selling author, and she's an animal naturalist

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and just someone who I'm so fascinated
with because she just has just so much

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information. It is Si Montgomery.
Thank you again for talking with me and

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so this book. First of all, I know you've been referred to as

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an octopus whisperer. You know that, yes, yes, okay, let's

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talk about that. Tell tell my
audience, why do people think or know

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that you're the octopus whisperer. Well, it's because I've spent a long time

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with my hands and arms in octopus
tanks, communing with these very intelligent,

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emotional animals. And for the book
that we first spoke about, which was

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called The Soul of an Octopus,
I spent three years getting to know individual

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octopuses, seeing them every week,
sometimes more than once, spending hours just

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communing with them and talking also with
researchers who had been investigating their intelligence and

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divers who had observed their behavior.
I actually learned scuba diving so that I

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could meet octopuses in the wild.
I remember that YE did that, which

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was pretty awesome when that book came
out. I mean first, the idea

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of an octopus having a soul was
intriguing to many people. To me,

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I kind of feel like if I
have a soul. They particularly animals who

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I knew as friends and who welcomed. They turned bright red with excitement when

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they saw me and came from their
layir to greet me by putting their suckers

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all over my skin, and would
would look into my eyes and I would

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I would stroke their skin. They
enjoy gentle touch, and we would play

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with toys together. Of course,
I felt they had a soul. After

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this book came out, it was
a real surprise to everyone that became an

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international bestseller and got like literary prizes
normally reserved for writing about politics and humans

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and stuff. And so when National
Geographic decided to do a three part television

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series called Secrets of the Octopus,
they asked me to write the companion book

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for it. Ah And in this
book I get to I got to talk

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to all these wonderful researches, some
of whom I knew, all of whose

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work I knew, But I got
to find out all the new science that

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has come out since my first book
came out in twenty fifteen. And the

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science that's coming out now is shedding
a ton of light on the magic of

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their camouflage abilities, the amazing intelligence
that they have. That chapter is called

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gelatinous geniuses. And the third most
surprising and interesting to me is that these

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animals, of whom there's more than
three hundred species and we're finding more practically

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every other month. These animals were
thought to be largely solitary, that most

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species just hated being around other octopuses
unless they were mating with them or eating

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them, right, But it turns
out they are surprisingly social, not only

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with octopuses of their own kind in
some cases, but in other cases they

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form partnerships with other species. Wow, that's fascinating. That's really fascinating.

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Yeah. Oh it blew my mind
because I kept wondering, you know,

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why does octavia bother to be my
friends? You know, our kind separated,

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Our last common ancestor was half a
billion years ago, when everyone was

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a tube. Why does she want
to be with me? What do I

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have to offer? But apparently a
number of octopus species recognize that other species

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have talents that they appreciate, and
one in one partnership that completely blows in

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my mind. This fish, it's
a marine trout, it is will come.

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He'll swim up to the to an
octopus do this particular gesture. He

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does a headstand in the water,
and that is the signal to the octopus.

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I have an idea. Let's go
hunting together. Goodness, I know

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where there are some cool things that
we want to eat. So the octopus

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then follows his partner, who leads
him, often to a coral or rock

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crevist, in which the fish,
the bony fish who can't get in that

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crevist, wants to eat some of
the creatures that live in there, but

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he can't get in, but the
octopus can because the octopus has no boat,

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and so the octopus flows into that
crevice and outcome this, you know,

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delicious outpouring of prey that both species
can enjoy. That's it's amazing.

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And there's a photo in your book
of the octopus doing the handstand right because

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it up it's the fish doing the
handstand and looking at it amazing and there's

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terrific footage shot by Adam Geiger and
his team. They spent hours and hours

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and hours and hours and hours getting
to know individual octopuses. They had rebreathers,

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so they could stay down much longer
than a normal scuba diver like you.

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And in this way, the octopuses
got used to them and would allow

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Adam and his team to go hunting
with them and to just hang out.

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And sometimes the octopus would just reach
out and touch him and touch the scientists

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who are like doctor Alex Schnell,
who's the major human character in the series.

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She would come along and Adam had
already made the acquaintance of the octopus

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and she could reach out her hand
and the octopus woul reach out. I

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love that. I love that.
It's so beautiful and it's something that most

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people probably don't even think you know
or no, yeah, they're like,

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what I got to do it?
Yeah, of course, you know you

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could say that. Even though I
did get to meet octopuses in the wild,

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most of my friends lived in captivity
simply because you know, I live

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in New Hampshire, our coastline and
several hours drive away and it's really cold,

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and octopuses are really hard to study, particularly if not in the tropics,

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because a someone may come along and
eat them. Yee. They don't

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always stay in they move their dens
around. See the first time you see

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the octopus, it's a red octopus. The next time a minute later,

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it's a spotted brown octopus. Then
two minutes later it's turned into somebody with

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smooth skin and like yellow stripes on
it. I mean, you can't even

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tell that you're looking at the same
octopus. They're really really hard to study,

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but scientists are finding their way around
it and getting to know individuals both

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in the lab and in the wild, and what they're finding out is mindful,

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I'm sure. And so you mentioned
because of all New science. What

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is it that has made so much
more information available? Is it technology?

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Is it the cameras, like the
different way that we have cameras and how

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we use them in digital wise,
or like, what is it that has

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kind of opened the field for it
so much over the years. Well,

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that is a really good question.
And when Adam was asked this very question,

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he said, really, you know, there have been some technological advances,

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but it's that people are spending more
time and being more patient. Wow,

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there are more divers interested in octopus. Can When I was researching the

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Soul of an octopus in twenty eleven, there was there was Most divers had

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never seen an octopus. Most divers
I've talked to had never even seen one.

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And why Well, because they can
become invisible and they can hide from

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it, of course. But there
has been a real flowering of interest in

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octopus since twenty fifteen when my book
came out, and part of that is

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thanks to a guy, Warren Carlisle, who contributes to all these octo profiles

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to the back of the book about
different species. He founded the world's largest

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octopus fan club called oct Donation,
as a result of reading my book,

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I Love it, and now he
has literally half a billion people have seen

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his online posts from our community OC
donation, and there's just so much more

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interest in octopus. There's so many
more eyes out there looking for them.

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There's so much more appreciation for the
excellent work that people are doing. Some

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of the folks who I interviewed have
been studying octopus for thirty years, but

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in many cases their work was ignored, no one cared. In some cases

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it wasn't even published. In some
cases it wasn't published because no one would

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believe it. But now people believe
it, people are interested, and this

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has paved the way, for example, that wonderful film My Octopus Teacher,

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which they were already filming that when
I was working on my book. But

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the fact that Soul of an Octopus
did so well, I think made a

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ready audience for beautiful films like that
one, and also a slew of great

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new books, including works of fiction
that star octopus, like Remarkably Bright Creatures,

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which is a huge bestseller. It's
a work of fiction, and the

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author very generously credits my book.
I love that it's litering her. A

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lot of this is because of you. You opened the door. I don't

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think it's me. It's well,
but you think it's the spirits of the

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octopuses that I wrote about. Give
them credit, I wish, But you

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won't give yourself credit. I will. I think you are the were the

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catalysts who started it and opened the
door for the interest and and oct donation

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and just people being interested and not
ignoring octopus in the past. Well,

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I am sure thrilled that this is
this is what has happened, and no

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one expected it. I mean,
my publisher did not expect this. My

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husband was shocked, like I could
have dropped to the floor, was shot

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right right that A the book did
so well unto that it you know,

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it was a finalist for this fancy
literary prize that usually goes to stuff about

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people. That's amazing. It was
amazing. It's good for you. So

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did you always from like from when
you were a child always fascinated by octopus

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and had an interest? Or is
this something that you saw or heard or

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learned from a teacher that kind of
made your eyes go huh more so or

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it just happened to be like maybe
there's not an answer to that. I'm

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just wor no, no, there
is there's so is. I mean,

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I think everyone who's seen in an
octopus, who was awake and in an

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aquarium has been fascinated by him.
And I was too sure. But for

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many many years I've written, oh
god, this is like my thirty eighth

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book, and I'd done like thirty
when I when I started doing solod Octopus

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in twenty eleven, I did not
feel ready until twenty eleven to write a

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book about consciousness in a marine invertebrate. I did not feel that I had

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the experience or skills to do it, and I didn't feel that readers were

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ready to consider it Interestill twenty eleven
interesting, and I was right. That

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was the time I was in my
fifties. Then I'd, you know,

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a lot of experience writing about other
minds besides humans, write about a number

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of mammals and birds. I had
written a book for younger readers about Translas,

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I'd gotten to know transela Is pretty
well, and I'd done some marine

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stuff, but I'd never done an
in depth book on a marine invertebrate in

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a way that would examine the mystery, philosophical mystery of consciousness. So and

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I finally felt ready to tackle that, so you just had a gut feeling

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on it. I guess I totally
did a gut But you don't, you

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know, when you when you're writing, or you try to know you know

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what what your readers might be hungry
for and what you what your soul is

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ready to investigate right right now.
But that's I mean, yeah, I

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just I find it. It's fascinating
to me. But I just feel like,

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and like I said before, you
don't give yourself the credit for it,

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but you not only you know in
instigated like you instigated the movement,

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but you also did it all on
a gut feeling. I guess y.

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Yeah, I think a lot of
writers work on their gut feelings. And

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sometimes their gut feeling is right,
and sometimes it's wrong, and sometimes you

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won't even know in your lifetime if
it was right or wrong right, you

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know, And that's a great thing
about about books is that they will stay

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on the shelf, at least in
the Library of Congress long after we're gone,

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right, and you never know what
your your impact is going to be

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sure, but what you've just got
to do is, you know, offer

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your sincere prayer in all of your
work that it will do some good in

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the world. Well, kudos to
you. It's really so. I know

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we've talked in the past, but
for those who don't know, you know

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simple things about octopus, that they
can change color, and they have all

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these different body patterns. What is
something and they have you know, nine

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brains is that correct? Nine brains
that they have or eight nine brains.

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It's as if they have not as
if they have one central brain, right,

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But most of their neurons are actually
in their arms, right, So

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that's it. They have eight arms. So you know, a severed octopus

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arm can go off and do stuff. It probably can. It can change

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color, it could even in theory
catch pray, catch prey. But what

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they're going to do with it because
its mouth is off, you know,

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with the rest and you know,
thinking of a severed octopus arm fills you

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with sorrow. But happily they can
regrow their arm and they can regrow it

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as good as new. Wow.
Okay, that is I was going to

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ask you what is the most fascinating
or cool fact. Not only is that

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it, I'm also still intrigued about
the arm that goes off and catches prey.

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Does it I guess it eventually dies
or yeah, it does because the

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octopus has three hearts and they're back
with the regular you know, the body.

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But it could last, but that
arm could go along for a day,

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a week. No, oh no, I think it's just a matter

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of hour hours. But what's so
interesting is that their arms can can do

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stuff without going through the central brain. So it's it's almost like, I

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mean, they can do very complex
things without going through the central brain.

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For example, you know a human, you can hit their their knee with

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a little hammer and it will reflexively
kick and you don't have to think,

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like, ow, hit my hammer, better kick. But this is extremely

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complex behavior that that arm is capable
of doing. And what this means is

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they are the premier multitaskers of the
world. Not only do they have eight

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arms, but each arm can essentially
think on its own right and has like

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hundreds of suckers on it, these
suckers. One of the other amazing things

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about octopuses is that they can taste
with all of their skin, particularly with

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their suckers, and they their suckers
are capable of a pincer grip, so

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that with their suckers they can untie
a knot in surgical silk. Wow.

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And some of their suckers a three
and a half inch diameter sucker which you

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can find on giant Pacific octopuses.
That's a big sucker you find on a

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big mail. One sucker can lift
thirty five pounds. No stop, they

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have two hundred of them on each
arm. Well, okay, so they

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have two hundred suckers on an arm, and one sucker can lift thirty pounds,

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so that that would be a big
one, and that would be a

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big ide of it. So that
means that one arm could could lift hundreds

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of pounds. Oh ye, absolutely, probably even small octopuses like the common

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octopus octopus of vulgarus, which makes
it sound like it swears all the time.

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That animal is a small animal,
but it can it can exert a

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quarter ton of force. And so
when I was interacting with these animals,

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and I was working with giant Pacific
octopuses who are much larger. They the

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largest can grow to three hundred pounds, I'm dealing with somebody who is tasting

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and feeling me at the same time, who is vastly, vastly stronger than

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I am, and also an animal
who is venomous, And never was I

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hurt or frightened in working with these
animals. They were totally sweet, curious,

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playful. I would say, gentle, very very gentle, very gentle.

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I mean I would go home at
times with Hickey's all over my arm.

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That book funny, It's very funny. Do you remember the very very

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first time you ever experienced? Of
course? Oh, yes, this so

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vivid. Yeah. My now good
friend Scott Down lifted the lid to the

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tanks that belonged to the resident giant
pacific octopus at New England Aquarium. And

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her name was Athena, and she
was about a forty pound giant pacific octopus.

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And I had no idea what to
expect, but I did want to

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just see what would happen. So
he lifts the lids of the tank and

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Athena. I see her eyes swivel
in its socket and lock onto my face,

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and then she flows out of her
den. She's turning bright red with

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excitement, and like this gorgeous huge
silk scarf unfurling in the water, this

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bright red octopus starts reaching up to
toward me with her white grasping suckers and

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so naturally I plunged my hands and
arms into the freezing cold water to meet

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her. And this was, of
course, after Scott said, that's okay.

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And then she covered my skin with
dozens and dozens of these soft,

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questing suckers, and she starts tasting
me and feeling me and looking into my

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face. And it was so evident
to me that this animal is just as

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curious about me as I was about
Sure she was connecting with you. She

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was totally connecting with me. And
you know, I don't know that she

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was thinking like, oh gee,
I want to be friends. I mean,

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I don't know what she was thinking, but I know she was interested

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because she moved toward, not away
from me, and she could have just

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watched me from somewhere else, but
no, she came toward me. And

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during the interaction, when I felt
she would feel comfortable, I actually would

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stroke her head and she turned white. And white is the color of a

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relaxed the puss. So she actually
relaxed under my touch and enjoyed my gentle

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touch. So here was another thing
we had in common. Sure, we

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both are curious animals who love to
explore. We both enjoy gentle touch.

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And later I was to discover that
octopuses like us enjoy playing with toys as

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well. Wow, and sometimes the
same toys our children enjoy, like mister

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Potato had and legos. Oh my
goodness. This is stuff that people would

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never ever, you know, think
about or know about it. But it's

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so fascinating and so interesting, and
I just think it opens people's brains a

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little bit more to see. You
know. It's just it's not only a

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cat and a dog that do certain
things exactly exactly. I mean, I

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consider our cats and dogs kind of
the uh, the gateway drug to loving

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all animals. Yes, of course
it opens you know, it opens other

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animals to you. I agree.
A few people get an you know,

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they get an opportunity to interact with
an octopus, unless you are a diver

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and you dive regularly in places where
octopuses are. But what this teaches us

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is, even if we don't have
a chance to get to know an octopus

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ourselves, we get to know that
the animate world is full of thoughts and

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feelings and memories and emotions and types
of intelligence that we may not understand,

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but that we should reference. That
we should be in awe of course,

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and I'm hoping that the octopus and
the book and the film Secrets of the

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Octopus allow this animal to act as
an ambassador for us to take better care

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of our oceans. Oh well,
ze right now, yeah, of course

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that is definitely you know, that
is the truth, because I'm sure with

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all the plastics and all the freights
and everything else that interrupts the wildlife and

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the oceans and the seas, it's
just it's probably you know, bad obviously

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for the octopus as well. Yes, it's it's certainly awful. And when

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we wreck the ocean, that's where
they live, so it's no good.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So Secrets of the Octopus that is

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the book. Tell me about the
film that it's coming out on Earth Day

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correct this year? Is it's a
three part it's a three part series and

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as folks may know, National Geographic
has been bought by Disney, so it

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will be on the Disney channels.
Wonderful. And this series is organized,

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like the book is, into three
parts. The first is, you know

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the masters of camouflage that octopuses are, how do they do it? They

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don't just blend in with the background. Many octopuses assume the false identity of

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other creatures. Some can mimic the
weather. Some can decide, you know

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what, I'm going to con use
this predator of mine into thinking that I'm

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really a bunch of poisonous sea snakes, and in fifth of a second they

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can turn instead into a poisonous flatfish
or flounder, and do this so convincingly

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looks so much like a flounder that
other flounders will follow it. Oodness.

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Yeah, that's the ultimate shape shifter, right, that's right. They're totally

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shape shifters. Oh my god.
And then the third part is to me,

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the most astonishing part, and that
is called octopus Kingdom, and that

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examines their unexpected sociality of these animals
that for ages everyone thought was solitary.

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But it turns out almost everything we
once believed about octopus is wrong. Wow.

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Wow, And this is coming out
on Earth Day and you are on

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the TV special correct. Oh I'm
not. I have the perfect face for

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radio. Oh stop it, you
do not stop it. I saw you

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on TV and that's when I was
like, I'm reaching out to our that's

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not the reason, but you know
they'll stop that. I'm supposed to say,

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I have the face for radio.
Not you, but you will.

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You will see all kinds of wonderful
researchers who I got to work with you.

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Yeah. Well, doctor Alex Schnell
is the person who most frequently is

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on camera, and she has done
some fascinating work both with wild animals and

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in the laboratory. She's a great
person and I just got to meet her

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in La after having many conversations with
her on zoom and phone. And I

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know that folks who watch this series
are just going to fall in love with

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her and with the octopuses that she
befriends, and all these other wonderful researchers

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doing this astonishing work. Well,
I can't wait, and I thank you

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for all that you do and your
influence. Tell me where my listeners can

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pick up Secrets of the Octopus your
book, Well, it should be everywhere

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books are sold, or you can
go directly to Secrets of the Octopus dot

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com and buy it and that'll connect
you with National Geographic and they'll show you

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00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:11.319
your nearest bookstore or how to order
it online. But it should be at

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stores all over the place right now, Okay, And I know the book

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just came out and I always hate
asking this, but I have to because

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I know that you can't, especially
you the little I do know of you.

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You can't stand like sit still.
What is next on your agenda?

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Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna get
my wet suit on again, and I'm

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going to do a book for younger
readers in you know, the kind of

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higher grades five, six, seven, eight about giant man to raise huge

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00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:53.319
essentially flattened sharks who lived to seventy
years old can sail up out of the

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water and form relationships like the octopus
does and with people. Wow, So

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that that will probably be the next
time that we chat, I fink,

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I hope. So I have to
tell you, Si, you side Montcomer,

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you are my You are one of
my favorite people, probably my favorite

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00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.640
person to speak to. I just
I find I love talking to you.

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00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.839
I could talk to you for hours. You just your your stories and and

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00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.720
I think it would make someone who
is asleep wake up and be interested because

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00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.720
you're just no seriously, I really
truly mean that. I just I really

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00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.640
I do love speaking with you.
So I really do appreciate you and your

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00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:40.599
time and all your knowledge because you
make it in a way like I wish

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00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.920
when I was in school I had
teachers like you. No, Maria,

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00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:49.519
it is mutual and here's to the
next time. May it be soon that

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00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.599
we get to talk again. I
would love that and thank you so very

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00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:02.559
much. You're this mot See you
later, Varmgator