WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:05.120 At what point can we finally say that being religious doesn't make anyone a better 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.880 person. We can talk all day long about how many chances are given to 3 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:13.960 abusive men in churches, how predators are held up in religious communities as leaders 4 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.719 and their victims are driven out or silence. We can watch as the most 5 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:24.839 avidly religious among us advocate for continued military violence, violently turning refugees away at 6 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:29.920 the border who are just seeking safety. We can watch them ban books that 7 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.200 tell the truth about history, actively lie about and to sort scientific findings, 8 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:37.759 regardless of the harm that they may cause, so long as it advances their 9 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:41.960 agenda, and deprive their own children of knowledge while filling them with hate for 10 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.520 those who are different from them. And this isn't even a complete list of 11 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:50.000 things that I have seen religious folks do lately. It's just what I thought 12 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.920 of all I was sitting on the couch in five minutes. It doesn't include 13 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.880 anything historical. This is all happening right now. So when we just give 14 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.320 up this charade that religious people are more moral than those who or not, 15 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:04.519 And if religion doesn't make anyone or anything better than what's the point to save 16 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.400 souls? Do any of these things that I just said sound like something a 17 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:12.159 saved soul would do. So whether you find yourself shouting at the screen in 18 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.719 agreement or think I'm being a horrible heathen wench, then give us a call 19 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:30.480 because the show is starting now. Hello, doctor Ben, how are you 20 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:36.400 all right? How about you? I'm doing well. Welcome everyone. Today 21 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:41.680 is June second, twenty twenty four. I am Sophia Spina, and as 22 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:44.719 I just mentioned, this is doctor Ben, who I'm very excited to be 23 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:48.560 hosting with. Like, we've not hosted together before. No, this is 24 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:55.439 our very first time, and I'm surprised honestly because it feels so natural the 25 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:57.439 way we've been talking with each other, and it seems like we have already 26 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.480 done shows together, but I guess this is the first one. So I 27 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:06.159 feel like you're just really interesting to listen to. So I'm like, yeah, 28 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:07.759 it's nice to just, you know, get to get to know you 29 00:02:07.759 --> 00:02:12.919 a little bit too. So, yeah, a brand new pairing, just 30 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.120 so we all know. Takithan is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, 31 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:21.759 a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, 32 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:27.719 critical thinking secular humanism and the separation of religion and government. Talkithen is 33 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.199 a live call in show and we have open lines, so get your calls 34 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:37.719 in at five one two nine nine one nine two four to two or from 35 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:42.639 your computer you can call at tiny dot c C slash call THH. That's 36 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:45.759 c A L L T H. And all that information is also on the 37 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:47.159 screen right now, right below, so you don't have to wait for me 38 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:53.080 to say it again. You can just plug on in there. So yeah. 39 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.120 So, also, uh, happy Pride Month, doctor Ben, you 40 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.639 mentioned before we got on You're like, this is the first show of Pride 41 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.280 Month, and I hadn't even thought about and I felt I was like, 42 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.319 oh my gosh, Yeah, we have to say something about that. Yes, 43 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.039 yes, for sure. And we even have a super chat that came 44 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:13.639 in before the show from Miranda Rensburger gives five dollars, saying that I won't 45 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.560 be able to stay for the live stream, but just wanted to say Happy 46 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:20.159 Pride Month. Happy Pride Months, everybody. This is the first Talk Heathen 47 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.280 of Pride Month, and I'm very excited that it gets to be our show. 48 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.879 We also got another super chat from Puck. Guests five dollars saying, 49 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.439 say, minimal praise for inimital plays in a liminal space. That's I can't 50 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.520 even speak the words that Puck is saying. I want to try minimal praise 51 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:43.080 for inimitable plays in a liminal space. But I had to pause really long 52 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.479 there. I feel like a cheated That's a hard one. But yes, 53 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:52.039 Happy Pride Month to everybody. Very excited to be part of this heathen heathen 54 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:59.280 his community of queers and everybody else alike. So wear your rainbow shor rainbow 55 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.319 spirit in the side chat. I'm excited to be able to share that with 56 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.159 all of you today. Yeah. I had a really happy experience last night 57 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:09.000 where I'm not going to mention the brewery. It is less we get in 58 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.840 trouble because this is Texas, but there were it was this awesome, like 59 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:16.639 very family friendly brewery. There's kids running all around, there's a drag queen 60 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:20.959 getting ready to perform in the background, and some like middle aged cheerleaders because 61 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.959 that's a thing good why not? And then there's like a couple of booth 62 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:28.959 tabling about like sexual health and all these It was like this is they have 63 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:31.600 amazing I love this brewery. They have amazing food trucks and I can't drink 64 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.839 beer right now, but they do have amazing beer when I can and vibe. 65 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:39.480 And I was just like, what a lovely little world right now of 66 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:42.839 all of these people kind of coming together and it's not a big deal because 67 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.639 it shouldn't be. And what a kind of fun Saturday night to have like 68 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:51.639 drag queens and playgrounds. You know, absolutely, And I know that there's 69 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:58.480 a lot of talk in the media frequently about people being very upset about Pride 70 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:03.360 and things associated with You see lots of videos of people intentionally avoiding crosswalks with 71 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:09.279 the Pride flag on them. You see people climbing up a railing for some 72 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:14.560 stairs to get to a transport platform or something, and like there's the painting 73 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.079 of the Pride flag along that and so they tried to climb up the railing 74 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.519 so they wouldn't have to touch the Pride flag. There's a lot of things 75 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:25.399 like that that we're seeing. But this this holiday, like this month of 76 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.759 Pride is yes, it is celebrating the right to survive and exist and to 77 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.639 be authentically you. And yeah, the focus is on the queer community, 78 00:05:34.759 --> 00:05:40.319 but it's not exclusively celebrated by the queer community. This is for everybody. 79 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:45.279 This is a celebration of being authentically you and being allowed to be authentically you. 80 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.160 And so even if you're not part of the LGBTQ plus community, that 81 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:53.120 is okay. You are allowed to celebrate with us. We welcome you to 82 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.319 celebrate with us, just on the grounds that you're going to be respectful. 83 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.120 And you know, I literally that's it, Like just be respectful, be 84 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.519 as a person, and like, like it's not that hard. You don't 85 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.839 have to change who you are, and we don't expect anybody to change who 86 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:10.839 you are. Unless you're an asshole, then you can maybe change that. 87 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.160 That's a personal choice, though, and it is your choice to be an 88 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.199 asshole. It's not a choice to be gay. It's not a choice to 89 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.879 be trand it's not a choice to be straight. It is a choice to 90 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.160 be rude. It's a choice to be welcoming, it's a choice to be 91 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:27.240 all these other things. So this is not to like exclude anybody, but 92 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.480 to welcome everybody in that community. So I hope that everybody can celebrate pride 93 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.959 with us and don't feel that just because you aren't part of that community. 94 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:38.720 It doesn't mean that you're not welcome to join in. So I love that. 95 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.560 I also love who in your side be like just don't just be respectful. 96 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:44.360 And then there was like no other and just like and that's it. 97 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.439 That's all you have to do. It doesn't feel like it's like this really 98 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:53.800 high bar you know, to navigate, unlike a fence, which I guess 99 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.079 people are climbing to avoid Pride flags. I wonder what they think will happen. 100 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:01.920 Will they be contaminated, will they suddenly come queer magically because they've touched 101 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.759 a Pride flag? Like it's leading It almost sounds like, I don't know, 102 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:11.480 it's so highly superstitious. It was really bizarre way right. It's funny 103 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:16.279 too, because I mean leading into a lot of the interesting discussions we have 104 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.279 with many theists, but at least the people that I was raised around, 105 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.920 the type of Christianity that I practiced, like, we often believed that God 106 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.319 was so powerful and that God could do all of these things, and that 107 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.160 there wasn't anything in this world that could overcome God's love and God's sense of 108 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:41.199 justice and God's plan. But somehow, you know, if God's plan for 109 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.680 you is to be straight. Stepping on a pride flag just completely overrides that. 110 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:49.839 Talking to gay people completely overrides that show shown up to the bride in 111 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:55.560 a too, too completely overrides whatever God's plan was for your sexuality. And 112 00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:00.439 it's interesting to think, like, what forces here are more powerful in this 113 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.759 sense? Like, is God's plan overthrown so easily by a pride flag? 114 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:09.399 What is this saying about your theology? What is this saying about you know, 115 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:15.439 your position in general? And it's very interesting. Yeah, it is 116 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.240 hard to buy the whole love the sinner, hate the sin thing, which 117 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:24.959 is bullshit for so many reasons in the first place. But when people behave 118 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.639 out of this deep seated fear of anything that they may view as I don't 119 00:08:31.679 --> 00:08:37.759 know, emblematic of the queer community, not to bring up something that's like 120 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.080 totally left field, But now I'm going to bring up something totally left field 121 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:48.200 that I found so funny is that the people who fear queerness so much, 122 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.919 and their main representative, who I would argue is Andrew Chate, recently came 123 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.960 out and said that it is gay to have sex with women. So we've 124 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:03.879 fully, you know, full circle that that I guess you're so scared of 125 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.440 feeling any kind of joy that you know, we gotta we got to keep 126 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.120 all genitals on lockdown all the time unless it's for procreation. So you're so 127 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:20.960 really amazing you're so afraid of being gay that now your definition includes everybody to 128 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.799 some extent, everybody is gay. So I don't know if that's achieving the 129 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.960 goal that they want to or if it's just you know, people want to 130 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.120 be part of our community and they're like finding ways to become part of it 131 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:33.600 without explicitly saying so, which if that's the case, Like no, like 132 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.440 I mean, you could just you could just be nice and join our community. 133 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.120 Like, like I said, it's not that hard to do. But 134 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:48.279 we do have a couple more super Chats we have. Uh. David Tech 135 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.759 is a new member and says Pride Month, Thank you David Tech and David 136 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:58.159 Tech not only gave super Chat and became a new member, but also gifted 137 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.399 twenty others talking to the memberships to people in the community. And this is 138 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.759 this is so pride with us about my friends, Like we got somebody sharing 139 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.440 the love. So thank you so much. That is absolutely wonderful. Thank 140 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.639 you so much, David, and that, yeah, I love that. 141 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.960 So moving on to question of the Week real quick, just because I'm like, 142 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.399 I feel like I could just talk to you. Yeah, but we 143 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:28.840 do have a talk heathen to me. So the talk hethn to me segment 144 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.200 is when we get into the question of the week. Last week we asked 145 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:37.320 you why is God so obsessed with sex? Wrong answers only, and here 146 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.960 are our top three answers. You want to you want to go ahead and 147 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.879 give us the top three there, doctor Ben, Yeah, God's obsessed with 148 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.399 sex because humans keep calling out his name during orgasm. That is amazing. 149 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.320 Michael Johnson composers later wrote that, which is like, that is great. 150 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.559 I feel like it would be kind of It's like getting a page and you're 151 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.480 like wait what oh man, you know, like there's kind of a maybe 152 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.960 just feels like a false alarm going off and God's like rats again. So, 153 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.279 yeah, God likes to be in the room, the room where it 154 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.240 happens. Yes, indeed, he likes to be in the room where it 155 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:18.639 happens, and so he Yeah, it's a very weird dynamic. I'm not 156 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.720 judging God's you know, sexual preferences, but you know he could, he 157 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.720 could allow for some more consent in that instead of you know, saying, 158 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.120 I'm just going to be there in that room watching you, and if he 159 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.840 could ask first, that would be preferable. It's not really his style, 160 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:41.639 you know, consent, but there's that It kind of reminds me of in 161 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.519 middle school dances when people talk about like leave room for Jesus. I don't 162 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.840 like the implication of that is that Jesus is like grinding on you. Instead, 163 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:54.000 like that there's a whole Jesus sized person between you and your partner in 164 00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:00.919 middle school and he's just in there, and that feels kind of weird when 165 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:05.000 I stop them think about it in that way, that's super weird. Anyway, 166 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:11.759 Moving on number two from X million seventeen oh four, God's obsessed with 167 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:16.039 sex. We're not sure why. However, he made a universe full of 168 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:22.360 holes that suck for some reason. Apparently. Yeah. I mean there's so 169 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.360 many, so many holes, so many there's so many in space, there's 170 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.200 so many in humans, there's so many in every other animal. There's so 171 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.960 many holes around nature. There's I don't know if we're talking about if we 172 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:41.799 think about themes within creation or themes within the scriptures and everything. I know 173 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.759 there's a trend to when something repeats multiple times, we tend to latch onto 174 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.600 that and think, oh, this is important, this is meaningful. So 175 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.080 that's a really good point. Maybe there is more significance to the fact that 176 00:12:54.120 --> 00:13:01.879 everything has holes in them. I don't know that answer, and so many 177 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.720 of the holes. Yeah, it are compelling when we stop and think about 178 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.840 how gravity works and how you have black holes. That are you know, 179 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:15.279 just these crazy epicenters of gravity, right, Like, that's that's fundamentally what 180 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.919 a black hole is. And I guess God also created the force of gravity 181 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.120 and sex would be more difficult without it, so true. Thanks question Mark. 182 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:30.879 Anyway, then our number one is from Ben Peacock. God is obsessed 183 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.600 with sex because it's been two thousand years since he got nailed. Too soon. 184 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:41.279 This is this is absolutely brilliant. That should be on a T shirt 185 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:46.080 that somebody just wears in public. Maybe it's a little too much, but 186 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:52.039 I think that's hilarious. That's that's gold. Yeah, I think that that 187 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.879 is incredible. It's like the kind of perfect combination of like almost almost feels 188 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.559 too far, but also why I'm like, who is it a fen ding 189 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.360 all the right people? Just that is incredible. So we also have a 190 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:11.120 prompt for next week, and the prompt is what is Jesus really saving us 191 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.120 from? Enter your best answer below this video in the comments, and next 192 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.080 week we will be able the top three answers. But let me get your 193 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.440 answer, doctor Ben, what is Jesus really saving us from? Well, 194 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:33.480 based on our talks backstage, which maybe we'll get this we all know from. 195 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:39.960 More specifically, he's saving us from the Pride flag itself. Flag flag 196 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.480 is sinful and Jesus is saving us from the Pride flag. I love it. 197 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.320 Yeah, Jesus just comes in and takes all the Pride flag for himself, 198 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:54.759 kind of like a you know, no kind of moment in a movie. 199 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:00.519 Yeah, just throw your Pride flags at Jesus, I guess and that 200 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.759 works because I really well, that is a great answer, and I'm anxious 201 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.279 to see what our audience comes up with. So in the comment section, 202 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.519 give us your best answer and tune in next week when we reveal our next 203 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.720 talk three. During talk Ethan Jumy, I also want to take a second 204 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.799 to think all of the people who make the show possible. So if we 205 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.120 could go to the crew cam and think, look at all those amazing, 206 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:30.759 lovely people and a poppy Oh my goodness. Sorry, clearly that was exciting 207 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.919 for me. Yeah, thanks to all of the video and audio people, 208 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.039 moderators, notes, the people who do notes and stamps and call screeners like 209 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.799 we are the people you see, but there there are so many people behind 210 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.399 the scenes who make this happen every single week. Like we come on sometimes 211 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.919 and you know, we have a rotating schedule of hosts, but these folks 212 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:54.120 are consistent and every single week make this happen, so it is amazing. 213 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.279 Also, they're just delightful people, Like that's I feel excited when we get 214 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.360 to talk to them and interact with them because they're just wonderful. Yeah. 215 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:04.600 Absolutely, we love the crew. Everybody else should also love the crew. 216 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:10.960 They are absolute superheroes and they do things that I sure as hell could not 217 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.519 be doing, like you don't want me touch it, you don't want me 218 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.240 touching those buttons, like you'll be broadcasting to I don't know, some we 219 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:25.000 just would accidentally mess everything up. So the crew is wonderful. We love 220 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:30.440 them, yeah so much. They're great. So this is kind of like 221 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.080 a weird. It feels like a hard right turn. So we're talking about 222 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.559 like Pride Month and how exciting that is, and you were talking about watching 223 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:42.480 an exorcism video. Yes, it had a little bit of overlap at least 224 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.080 into some of what we're discussing. Do you want to tell us about that, 225 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.399 Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to talk about it. And if there's 226 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.759 anybody in the audience that has thoughts about kind of the culture around these exorcism 227 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.879 videos, or if you have a story about something like this. But the 228 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:07.359 culture primarily within the Pentecostal or like charismatic churches especially, there's so many famous 229 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:12.839 people that have made videos and posted them about exercising the demons out of people. 230 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.960 And there are a few very popular people, especially there's one in front 231 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.400 of South Africa. There's a few others, but it's very interesting. Number 232 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:27.200 one, the person I was watching is a woman doing these exorcism which is 233 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:36.119 funny because you're in these very very anti woman pastor type churches and yet these 234 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.000 are people that are becoming super popular, which, like in any other context, 235 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.400 I would have no problems with this, But it's not the fact that 236 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.680 they're women that they're the problem. It's because they're exercising demons out of people 237 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.000 unnecessarily that it's the problem. But it's just interesting that it contradicts with their 238 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.839 you know, underlying theology. But whatever. So this lady does the typical 239 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:03.359 style of that a lot of others do, where you have people coming into 240 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.000 the church and they're for some reason, they're always like hunched over and they're 241 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:12.519 like almost like filming at the mouth, like just like snarling and like making 242 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:18.519 all these weird like animal noises. Like the trope around like demon possession is 243 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.880 very interesting about why if a demon were to possess a human, why that 244 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.680 would be the go to posture. Why would this be how they decide to 245 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.119 carry it out. I don't know. If I were a demon possessing a 246 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.559 human, maybe I would if I were actually trying to do horrific things, 247 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.720 or if I was trying to corrupt humanity, I would try to be as 248 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.920 natural as possible probably and not be trying to stick out. But either way, 249 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.400 these people show up and they're like seizing all over the place and like 250 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:55.359 they're speaking in tongues and stuff. But the most interesting ones you have people 251 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:02.799 coming to her for their HIV they're coming to her her for marriage difficulties, 252 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.039 they're coming for being gay, you know, I mean that's a more common 253 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:14.359 one. And so she's like praying to dispel these demons of HIV. And 254 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:18.880 so she claims and tells a person that you are cured of your HIV with 255 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.599 this prayer. She does the same thing with autism. She does the same 256 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.759 thing with this people's divorce. Like they show up and they're about to get 257 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:32.799 divorced, and she says, like, I denounce the spirit of divorce, 258 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.440 and they start screaming and crying, and then I don't know the outcome of 259 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.920 that whole thing, but it's just amazing. Number one, to see these 260 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.240 people like flocking and I'm not sure how many of them are legitimately seeking those 261 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.279 services or how many of them are plants in the audience, because I'm sure 262 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.319 there's a mix of people, but this is super dangerous. For one. 263 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:59.319 And number two, you get kind of a taste of like which things matter 264 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.440 most to this church population and what things don't. Like When the person's like 265 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:11.119 gay desires left his body, the crowd goes wild. When you see someone's 266 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:17.359 autism be expelled from them, the crowd goes wild as if this is such 267 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.400 a miraculous thing. Then on the flip side, you have this like about 268 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:26.000 to divorce couple, and the crowd's just like okay whatever. So like, 269 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:33.480 clearly autism and gay identities are far worse than a divorce, But it's just 270 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:40.240 it's a very interesting dynamic. And I know you had some thoughts about this 271 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.960 as well, with how these are played out and like, and even more 272 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.640 when they affect children. And I was just kind of blown away by the 273 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:55.640 fact that, like people really think that HIV can be dispelled by just saying 274 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.400 things like or that depression and anxiety can just be cured by just saying some 275 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.279 words, which I think if it actually did work, I don't know many 276 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.240 people that would not try that. Like, I don't know many people that'd 277 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.880 be like, yeah, no, I'm okay. I just I just hate 278 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.759 Jesus too much to say these necessary words. Like I feel like if it 279 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.400 worked, we'd have a lot more people being helped by this. Yeah. 280 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:29.200 I think that it's this desperation to that drives people to seek this kind of 281 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.319 of help, because we think about the idea of like someone who is suffering 282 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:40.799 from an illness or someone who has depression in an extremely severe way. And 283 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:47.519 I really wonder if all of these folks backgrounds are actually believing in demons or 284 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.160 are they just like nothing else has worked, and here's someone who's telling me 285 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:56.359 they have something that will work, and it's praying upon folks who are really 286 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:02.960 vulnerable at that time and just want any leaf, and so they end up 287 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:10.240 believing in Charlatan's which this cannot be anything but that when we were talking earlier, 288 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.960 you're right, like, for me, I tend to be very upset 289 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:21.640 by anything happening to kids like that's it's children are just sort of my heart. 290 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:26.160 I guess I don't know how to describe that. But I did see 291 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.400 an exorcism video once where this girl who was like seven years old was watching 292 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:36.079 a lot of mermaid content on YouTube and she was really into mermaids, and 293 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:40.880 so her parents decided she had like a demon of a mermaid sort of inside 294 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:47.640 of her and that that needed to be exercised from her. And so this 295 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:53.920 crying, clearly upset seven year old is put in this situation with people screaming 296 00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:00.440 and wailing, and she knows enough about this performance that she's kind of putting 297 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.759 on this like you know, like answering kind of as the demon. But 298 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:11.359 she's clearly so upset, and the preacher is talking about, yeah, and 299 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.160 you're not gonna you're gonna let go of this little girl. And then once 300 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.680 the exorcism is complete, like basically, once they've traumatized this poor kid enough, 301 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.319 as she gets increasingly upset because I guess that means the exorcism is working, 302 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.000 they eventually ask like, so you're going to watch YouTube videos of mermaids 303 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:33.039 anymore? And she's like no, And so just watching this kid who is 304 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.880 in this situation, all of these adults are screaming at her, all of 305 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:44.759 her responsible adults in her life that normally would give her comfort are not giving 306 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.880 her comfort, are actively participating in this. She has nowhere to turn, 307 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.160 she has nowhere to go and be like. She doesn't have the wherewithal to 308 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:57.599 say this is really weird, this is really messed up. She's a child 309 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:04.279 who's being I say, this is absolutely abuse. And anytime I think you 310 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:10.799 traumatize a child this way intentionally for no benefit other than to scare them out 311 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:17.000 of watching a YouTube videos too much, is disgusting to me. And I 312 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:18.920 don't know the parents' background. I mean, maybe they went through similar things 313 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.079 when they were young, but it doesn't justify anything. So that broke my 314 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:27.319 heart. And I think that when we think about like exorcisms and demons, 315 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:33.559 I look at how vulnerable people are when they're in these positions to bring themselves 316 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.119 or bring their child, and how helpless they must feel in general that the 317 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:45.680 only thing they can do is turned to someone who just screams a lot about 318 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:52.720 demons and hopes they hope that will work. Yeah. I guess that's the 319 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:57.119 summary of me being like, I have to limit my own intake of these 320 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:04.160 videos because they're so horrifying to me because of the vulnerability that's just being exploited, 321 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:10.319 you know. Yeah. Yeah, Anyway, on that note, I 322 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:12.880 feel like that was kind of before the show we started getting to these really 323 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:17.240 deep conversations. We're just like, oh my heart, you know, believe 324 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:19.920 it or not, atheists do have them, And well, I recognize that 325 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.400 my feelings don't come from my heart, that that is in fact a metaphor. 326 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:30.200 I yeah, seeing this sort of injustice is so upsetting. Yeah. 327 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.720 On that note, we have a call from Rob who is he him? 328 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.799 It looks like identifies as an atheist and wants to talk about numbers five. 329 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:47.359 The abortion ritual says there is a fungus that grows on wheat and would be 330 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:53.200 present in the temple counters anyone arguing against abortion from the Bible. So hey, 331 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:59.359 Rob, tell us about what's going on in numbers five. I. 332 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.240 So, as we all know, one of the key components of the aborting 333 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.079 or tool in numbers five is to take dirt from the temple floor. The 334 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:12.359 temple is where they brought all their offering meat grain especially, and ergot is 335 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:18.839 a naturally occurring fungus that grows on cereal crops. And we know that we've 336 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.640 actually been using it for literal millennia in obstetrics, and one of the things 337 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:29.799 that can cause is miscarriage. Yeah, also migraine treatments. It was used 338 00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.000 for a long time in treatment of migraines, but we stopped using it because 339 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:37.039 it causes a slew of other side effects as well, and so it's like 340 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.839 not the best thing to use in general. But yeah, it's it's possible 341 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.240 that you know, this was a use for that purpose back then. Interesting 342 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.000 and definitely that like an all powerful and all knowing God would prob Sorry good, 343 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.759 oh no, no, please, oh, just the idea of an 344 00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.160 all powerful and all knowing God if he is instructing you to do something that 345 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:03.640 could potentially cause miscarriage, seems this seems odd that he would be so upset 346 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:08.799 by abortions if he's doing something that could potentially cause a spontaneous abortion. But 347 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.640 what were you going to say? It seems odd? It seems that it 348 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:19.480 seems as though intentionality, like we know that it exists to use it in 349 00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:26.200 medicine. There's no way God wouldn't know that. Yeah, you would think, 350 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:32.079 yeah. I mean with that particular topic, I have some questions about, 351 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:37.000 like because I know, I know there are intentional abortions mentioned in the 352 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:44.319 Bible. There is intentional commands to terminate pregnancy in the Bible. I wonder 353 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.160 with that specific wording from that verse, I wonder how much of that was 354 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.559 like intentionally going for miscarriage. Because I know with the temple, the dirt 355 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:59.599 on the temple floor, while it could contain urge like poisoning it, I 356 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.799 don't know if that particular versus hinting that it's intentionally being used for that, 357 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:10.480 or that it's intentionally like known that that substance would be in the soil that 358 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.200 they would be eating. But I do think that there there are definitely other 359 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.440 examples where they do mention. For example, there's a compound at one point 360 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:25.640 that is likely copper containing and use like for the purpose of terminating pregnancy, 361 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:33.119 especially preventing like implantation of a fetus. So yeah, there's definitely definitely examples. 362 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.000 It's so interesting how many of the natural elements that exist on the planet 363 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:41.839 can cause things, can cause our bodies to miscare and to cause us to 364 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:47.759 have negative reactions for completely odd, mundane reasons. We use copper all the 365 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:49.720 time, you can cook with it, but if you have it inside your 366 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:55.240 body, it can cause problems. It's very interesting that the natural world seems 367 00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:59.559 to align with the ideas for all these various things, but like, actually 368 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.559 a lot of it's really hostile to our ongoing likelihood. Yeah, pregnancy, 369 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:11.759 pregnancies in general are very difficult to maintain, They're very difficult to have go 370 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:17.799 well. People that think that pregnancy is just an easy, straightforward process are 371 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:25.960 very like misunderstanding of everything that happens. Miscarriage is incredibly common, and there's 372 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:30.960 a lot of times you might miscarrying and not even know because you could have 373 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:37.480 a like a zygode or a gestation that is like barely past stages of conception 374 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.839 and then not implant and then that would be a miscarriage that you just don't 375 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.920 even know about. There's plenty of different places where pregnancy can go wrong, 376 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:52.640 and people tend to focus primarily on where it goes well, which nowadays, 377 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.000 most of the time it does go well. We've we've come to a place 378 00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:00.519 where understanding is good enough to know how we can adjust things with physiology in 379 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.960 order to make it go well more often. But it didn't used to be 380 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:08.960 that way, and especially in the Bible, there likely were a lot more 381 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:15.839 miscarriages and a lot more people that didn't survive childbirth. And it's a very 382 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:19.079 difficult process to have go well. And yeah, the world that we live 383 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:26.359 in, everything is not it's not well designed for anything to physiologically go well. 384 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.240 A lot of it's just it accidentally just seems to work in a certain 385 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.359 way. But yeah, I would I would agree with you that things are 386 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:38.640 not statistically favorable in a lot of senses. And I mean that just kind 387 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.319 of goes into evolution, like how we get recurrences of things that are more 388 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.119 likely to be favorable, and I think we're all in this room. I 389 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.519 think we're all in agreement on that. As a person who is currently almost 390 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.279 exactly seven months pregnant, I feel like it's been interesting for me. This 391 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:02.880 is my second pregnancy that it has gone fairly well. I'm extremely fortunate, 392 00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.960 and so I look at my like healthy pregnancy. I still ended up being 393 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.559 anemic. I still have, you know, blood pressure that's low enough to 394 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.039 need to be monitored. I still was nauseous for months and months on end, 395 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.000 which is a good sign. I guess that you know, if you're 396 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.039 nauseous, you're less likely to miscarry. But it's a miserable good sign, 397 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:25.759 gotta say, particularly if you already you don't have a child or trying to 398 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.720 do anything with your life at all, including get out of bed. I 399 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:37.200 think about the fact that my nerves in my back are almost just crippled in 400 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:41.160 pain every day by the end of the day, like I can't really move 401 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.400 very well because it hurts so badly, and it's just the weight of the 402 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.680 baby pressing down, is what I've sort of been told. I honestly feel 403 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:52.480 like doctor would probably understand some of what's happening here better than I do. 404 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:59.680 But my pregnancies are great. Nothing that happens in them risks my life or 405 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:05.279 the life of the child that I'm just dating, and I'm grateful for that. 406 00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:08.680 But even with that, it's still miserable. Even with that, it 407 00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:15.359 still takes this incredibly high toll on my health as a whole. My hips 408 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.759 are two inches wider than they were before my first child, which means that 409 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.000 in that sixteen hours of labor, in two and a half hours of pushing, 410 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:30.160 I somehow expanded my bones. That's a bizarre thing to have happened to 411 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:32.839 you, and a bizarre thing to say. But when we talk about this, 412 00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:36.960 this is like best case scenario. You know, I was able to 413 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.640 give birth in a way that was relatively you know, pretty much uncomplicated. 414 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:45.839 You know, nothing was going to be pretty crazy, too drastic or wrong, 415 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.839 And this is still what happened. These are still some of the epic 416 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.400 things that occurred within my body, let alone any kind of like mental health 417 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.319 consequence for not being able to get out of bed without puking for months and 418 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.640 how that can be really stressful. Were just the fact that there's so many 419 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:07.839 different hormones going on that you end up having sometimes very odd reactions to situations 420 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:13.000 in your life. Pregnancy is hard when it's great, and so the idea 421 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:17.759 that were designed in any way for this to go well is totally bizarre to 422 00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:22.680 me. Oh absolutely, My wife and I had a really good pregnancy, 423 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.359 and I say ay, as though I had much to do with it, 424 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.519 it went really well. And even all of that, it still changes your 425 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:37.480 body. It physically is taxing. It is a dangerous endeavor. Even some 426 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:42.880 cultures in history have recognized that the Spartans you only got a grapestone if you 427 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.880 died in battle, or if you were a woman who died giving birth because 428 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:52.440 you were sustaining the empire. And it's like even different cultures recognized these things 429 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:58.319 were incredible and it might be sexist to turn it to men fight on the 430 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:00.880 battlefield, women's fight in the birthing, but I didn't take it that way. 431 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:08.280 Thank you get randomly, Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting too. 432 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:12.400 You know, I live in Texas, so of course me being pregnant is 433 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:17.239 something that I have to have a discussion every time about what we will do 434 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:22.360 if something happens that cannot be medically dealt with here in Texas, and I 435 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:30.320 am thank you. I realized that we are in such a fortunate situation in 436 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:35.639 my little family that if we did need determinate the pregnancy for whatever reason, 437 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:37.519 I could leave, but I would have to come back to the state and 438 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.559 not tell anyone what I had done, because I would be a felon if 439 00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:46.800 I did that, and I could be arrested. It's just a very thin, 440 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.880 a very strange thing to think about when I'm like, and this is 441 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:57.880 like a fully wanted pregnancy, and it I still could be punished if it 442 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.800 goes wrong, and that's absolutelytly bizarre to me. I know, they don't 443 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.800 much to say other than about that. Yeah, And like I said, 444 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.719 I'm fortunate. I I feel like that's really it's I can't even comment on 445 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:19.559 other women's situations who have been experiencing miscarriages and might actually end up being prosecuted 446 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.960 for a miscarriage, which for some reason, pro life is like to pretend 447 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.519 could never happen, and yet absolutely has. You know, I think they 448 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.199 don't. I think they don't examine examine the end result of their beliefs, 449 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:37.960 like if you want enforced by law, then you need an mechanism by which 450 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.079 to investigate it, because we're not just going to go back to which trials 451 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:45.639 and accusations. We hopefully we don't, but I know you're like, we're 452 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:52.800 not. And I'm like, yeah, oh, that that one, Oh 453 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:54.159 that one, that one, that one might be. The one faced thing 454 00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:59.000 I believe in is like I think there's enough people here who think and use 455 00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:01.880 their brains. I really don't know that there are, but I sure hope 456 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.800 there are, because even if we do the things that they want, it's 457 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.519 like, okay, how you have to design a system? Now, you 458 00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:14.000 don't just get to go I want a thing. Tell me how you're going 459 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:15.599 to make it happen, and I can tell you whether or not that's probably 460 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.039 a good thing or not. But if you don't even know how and that 461 00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:22.079 thing sounds unreasonable, then I don't Then I don't even want to try and 462 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.679 engage with the concept at all, Like that doesn't sound like a good idea 463 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.199 to do, Like you can't even tell me how to make it happen. 464 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.079 That would make it seem okay. Yeah. The problem is they start pulling 465 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:36.159 the trigger on things and they happen, and they don't even They don't they 466 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:42.360 don't understand who are the victims of the consequences of these things. They don't 467 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.119 care enough to look into it more. And it's unfortunate because, like, 468 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:52.559 there are plenty of reasons why you would need an emergency termination or even a 469 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.320 non emergency termination, if there are conditions that leave you at such high risk 470 00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.920 for complications, Like if you ask anybody, like if you had even let's 471 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.920 take even a small risk like ten percent, Like if you had a ten 472 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:13.280 percent risk that you could absolutely just die in your pregnancy and there'd be nothing 473 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.320 that we could do to help you. Would you take that risk for yourself? 474 00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:22.079 But more importantly, would you want somebody else to make that decision for 475 00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:25.840 you? Like, when you understand what is at stake here, it's hard 476 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.599 to say that you would oppose rights for other people because, yeah, I 477 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:34.960 might be willing to take a ten percent, but somebody else might absolutely not 478 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.559 be willing to take that ten percent. And if that ten percent, like, 479 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:44.320 for example, one of the big scenarios that seems to be complicated people 480 00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:49.599 with connective tissue diseases such as our fans Elers, Dan Lows, et cetera. 481 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.960 If you have a condition where too much pressure on your aorta can cause 482 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.599 it to explode. Like literally you can get a dissection of your aorta that 483 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:04.360 can you very very quickly. If you have a connective tissue disease where your 484 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.719 blood vessels cannot hold up to that kind of pressure, you have a significantly 485 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.360 high risk of that happening during a pregnancy, and just buy the amount of 486 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:19.440 blood flow that you have to accumulate to compensate for the space that has to 487 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.760 get blood flow, like within the baby, but also the pressure from the 488 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.920 baby itself and it growing and taking up that space. If you had that 489 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.159 option of like, you have this amount of chance, and I think it's 490 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:31.360 small. I think it's around the ten percent range, but I could be 491 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:36.559 wrong. Like, if you have that that risk, would you want somebody 492 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.000 else making that decision for you? Like, Okay, you can either terminate 493 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:43.599 this pregnancy or you can have this risk that your orda is going to explode 494 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:45.119 and there's nothing we can do to help you. That's a choice you have 495 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:50.559 to make. And going to work with a ten percent mortality rate, you 496 00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:52.039 guys, your job, No, I don't. There's a ten percent chance 497 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.440 I die. I'm not doing it. Yeah, well, and I think 498 00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:01.039 too about factoring in that when you have previous children. You know, like 499 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:07.079 I'm the second of four kids between my parents, and I have a toddler 500 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.599 already. So if somebody told me that now, I think I wouldn't choose 501 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.920 to go for the ten percent anyway personally, but I absolutely would say no 502 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:23.119 because there is an extant child here that I could assist and that like needs 503 00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:29.719 me as I already am so the idea that like, not only people making 504 00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.480 that choice for you, but they're making that choice for your whole family. 505 00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:38.360 This whole system is going to be impacted by whatever happens to you, And 506 00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:45.559 that is just incredibly heartbreaking to think that somebody would choose that. And you're 507 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.360 not only making that choice for those people who get to say whether or not 508 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:52.280 they get a choice, you're also making a choice for the doctors that would 509 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.400 have to intervene in those ways. Like if you make it a felony to 510 00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.840 perform an emergency termination, then you're going to have peer people that are willing 511 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.519 to do it, and you're putting them on the line for if they do 512 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:09.360 it, but then effectively for the people who need those options. Available. 513 00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:14.800 Let's say somebody takes that chance, that ten percent chance for themselves and they 514 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.000 can't get help. Like, if it comes to be that they need those 515 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.639 procedures, you're now increasing their chances of harm because now you're limiting their ability 516 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:29.639 to be helped in those cases. So it's eliminating really every safeguard that we 517 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:34.719 have in this process for lots of people. And people don't understand, like 518 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.519 they think it's a black and white issue of either you get an abortion or 519 00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:42.199 you don't, like either your baby dies or they don't, and that's not 520 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.639 the discussion. There's so much more layers of nuance here, and the fact 521 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:52.239 that we don't have people who understand weighing in on these issues is incredibly problematic. 522 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.360 It's like if I if I were to weigh in and decide I'm going 523 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.800 to make decisions for everybody else about their finances, and like I want to 524 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:07.519 start regulating banks, Like nobody wants that. I can promise you nobody wants 525 00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:13.760 that because I will just ignore it and I don't know anything about the economy, 526 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:16.480 So like, why would I be the right choice for this. I 527 00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:21.880 wouldn't. But I understand that a lot of people unfortunately don't understand that medicine 528 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.119 is similar that, like you can't just pretend to know it and then get 529 00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:29.679 away with it and then and then say, oh, well this thing got 530 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:32.559 messed up, but it's their fault. And also I wasn't trained, so 531 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:36.639 how do you expect me to know? So, like, if you weren't 532 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.599 trained and we can't expect you to know, then why are you stepping into 533 00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:45.360 this position of leadership and making the decisions like I just told them? Because 534 00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:53.519 because in Ohio, I really get that, particularly as as someone who cares 535 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:59.840 about other people and literally cares for other people. Trying to dictate what part 536 00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:05.039 of that job is against my better knowledge or in this case a doctor's better 537 00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:10.360 knowledge is almost like enforced apathy. Imagine seeing someone who needs help, who 538 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:16.079 absolutely needs it, and being told helping that person is a crime none of 539 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:22.199 us. Wow that Like, it's it's what it's the it's the rambifications of 540 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:25.000 what they want, but they don't seem to like conceptualize it. And it's 541 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.440 so wild to me for people to either not have an imagination or just no 542 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:34.800 forethought, Like the thing you want will have to have rules, So the 543 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.440 rules are gonna be the problems that we encounter along the way. You know, 544 00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:44.039 it isn't just one thing, it's theme you want and that system looks 545 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:45.599 bad, and they don't seem to really. They're just like, well, 546 00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.000 but I like the thing, and it's like, but you could do that 547 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.719 just for you. You don't have to get one tell me what I can 548 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.599 do. That's it's this interesting thing where they want their own freedom, but 549 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.559 they also want the freedom to tell you what to do, despite that being 550 00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:04.800 the opposite a pres I mean this idea that if you feel God has told 551 00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:08.559 you that you have the answer, and it doesn't matter what you know, 552 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.880 what the practicality is of it, It doesn't matter what medical professionals say, 553 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.519 it doesn't matter the fact that you're going to be requiring people who are caregivers 554 00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:22.320 to not actually help those in dire need, because this is what This is 555 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:28.039 what God said, and it doesn't matter that we can we can track exactly 556 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.159 when God started saying that, apparently historically, and that it was absolutely a 557 00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:37.320 political movement and came from political ideologies, and the issue of abortion has been 558 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.559 used to manipulate voters for you know, almost generations. At this point, 559 00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:47.519 None of that matters because to this you know, imaginary legislator or voter, 560 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.039 it's just this idea of well, God said it, So anything we're saying 561 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:58.360 becomes irrelevant in light of that, which I find so deeply disturbing. And 562 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:01.159 I think even when I was a Christian, I I'm not confusing that God 563 00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:07.199 is okay with suffering, I guess in this way, and God is okay 564 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:12.840 with us inflicting it because this one issue that we've all decided matters more than 565 00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:20.199 any other is on the table. It's divinely mandated cruelty at that point. 566 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:23.679 It's what it feels like. I grew up raised cats like my mother's Catholic, 567 00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:29.840 and I never I never got even really past like the first communion stage 568 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:34.320 of belief in God. Because one of the first things in Catholicism for people 569 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.519 who don't know, is do your first union. It's like second grade. 570 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:39.559 You get all dressed up. There's a big thing. It's like a little 571 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:43.840 tiny kit king Sanira, a lot of fun. It's nice. You get 572 00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:45.559 your family together, you get food, you get to dress up, you 573 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.920 get a picture taken. But one of the things is you have to go 574 00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:52.079 to the priest and you have to confess your sins. And I'm eight at 575 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.679 this point, and I'm like, I don't know what, like what sins, 576 00:44:54.719 --> 00:45:00.320 Like I've done bad things, but I've also expres rest, remorse and 577 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:05.280 tried to atone I don't feel the need to tell that to this guy. 578 00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.360 I feel like God would understand, Yeah, don't punch your little brother, 579 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:14.599 but he was annoying me. Don't do it anyway, and like, Okay, 580 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:15.760 you're right, God, I probably shouldn't punch him, but you know, 581 00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:20.159 you know, I'm a little kid. Like it's this weird idea to 582 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:24.159 me that God is both a loving, caring father who will then over punish 583 00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:29.440 you. Like but but that's bad. Like like guys, like if like 584 00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:34.320 if we put all of God's qualities into a person and then let that person 585 00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.960 do things, that person's going right to jail. They're going to the Hague 586 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:42.159 right Like It's like, I'm going to set you up. I'm going to 587 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.639 set you up to fail. I'm going to absolutely set you up to fail, 588 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:46.280 and then when you fail, I'm going to say it's your fault and 589 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.679 I'm going to punish you for eternity. Like that's that's what happened. That's 590 00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:55.480 yeah, incredibly abusive. He's so evil, it seems. Yeah, And 591 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:59.760 when you when you think about if you grow up in a family that talks 592 00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:04.519 a lot about sin, then it's almost like, well, that's, of 593 00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.159 course what the heavenly Father would do, that's what your parent, that's what 594 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.000 your earthly parents are doing. If you're talking about sin all the time and 595 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:14.119 there's this assumption that a seven year old can be possessed by a mermaid demon 596 00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.960 or that you can commit sin before you understand the idea of even right or 597 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.440 wrong, then you're sort of being set up to fail by your parents here. 598 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.119 You know, you're getting punished for sinning when you're a small child, 599 00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:30.119 as Georgia Purdham of Answers and Genesis referred to her like four year old as 600 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:34.400 a dirty sinner, which for some reason made me laugh just because she included 601 00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:36.760 the word dirty. I'm like, you could have just said she's a sinner 602 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.000 anyway. But it's like, so, of course the heavenly Father. That 603 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:44.239 makes sense because that's what's happening inside of your home too, right, which 604 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:50.519 is also heart wrenching. Yeah, on that super depressing note, we have 605 00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:53.079 another caller. I really want to get to. But I have so appreciated 606 00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:57.840 talking with you. Rob. You are delightful and I appreciate your perspective. 607 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:00.559 Thank you so much, Lpia, Thank you much, Doctor Been, Like, 608 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:02.480 I didn't even know that the order, the a order thing was a 609 00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:06.920 like thing that people have. That's fucking terrifying. I don't know how women 610 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.840 don't kick people who are anti joy It's because I can't get my leg that 611 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:19.960 high right now, so I can't kick anybody. Thank you guys so much 612 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.000 for the call, and I can't wait to hop in and listen to everything. 613 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:27.639 Thank you so much. Bye, What a delightful person. I just 614 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.920 appreciate your perspective so much, Doctor Ben too, because I'm like, I 615 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.119 can tell you what I'm going through, I can't tell you how it's working. 616 00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:37.400 Yeah, So I find that really interesting. I think it's a great 617 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.800 it's a great dynamic that you and I have because I can't I've never been 618 00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:46.320 pregnant, so I can't give that insight about what it's like to go through 619 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:50.360 a lot of these things. So I think it's a it's a great pairing. 620 00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:55.559 We've got here and oh thank you. Oh no, I was gonna 621 00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.400 say we have another super chat that I wanted to read real quick. This 622 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:07.199 is from x million and they give twenty dollars saying God's obsession with the YouTube 623 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:12.119 censored act which can lead to procreation because it imbues women with an inordinate amount 624 00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.920 of power and responsibility over the fact over the act of procreation, which strikes 625 00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:22.679 fear and insecurity in his heart, which is very interesting and related statement to 626 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:27.159 what we've been talking about. Absolutely and just the idea that women could have 627 00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:30.519 control of this or could choose that you know what this does not a dude 628 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:36.039 I want to approcreate with is Yeah, I could see that being extremely threatening 629 00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:42.679 to a lot of folks understanding of religion slash God. It's interesting too that 630 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.079 I look at it and the number of women I see blamed for the actions 631 00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:51.400 of their child's father in hindsight, like, oh, well, you shouldn't 632 00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:54.320 have ever had children with this man, sort of that's on you that he's 633 00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:59.519 behaving this way. Like that's a really common narrative, both in and outside 634 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.320 of the church. This kind of sexism is not confined to it, and 635 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:07.199 so it's interesting to think that like giving women control to not procreate with a 636 00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:12.199 particular individual, is that we can't do that, but we can blame them 637 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.920 for having children with the same individual, and that seems pretty perverse to me. 638 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:22.800 It's a trap, man. There's nothing you can do that will satisfy 639 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:28.679 these folks, which dang. Rough. Yeah, I feel like we're all 640 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:36.320 very in today's very serious day. I feel like we're really hitting a lot 641 00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.000 of serious things, which I appreciate. But it's interesting to be like, 642 00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:45.840 dang, it's heavy. On that note, we have another caller, David, 643 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:52.599 who goes by He him from Washington State, and he wants to talk 644 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:58.880 about the impracticality of bathroom bands. So hey, David tell us about the 645 00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:04.000 impracticality of bathroom bands. Well, I thank you so much for bringing me 646 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.079 into the show. By the way, I'm grateful for this. Uh. 647 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.599 I just wanted to say that the bands that are being passed in a lot 648 00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:16.679 of state legislators are very impractical and that the face, how would you The 649 00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:20.719 only way you could is if you had a cop whose job was to sit 650 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.079 in front of every bathroom door in America and look at the lack of thing 651 00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:29.920 and delegate genitals of everybody going in. I wouldn't want to be that cop. 652 00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:31.679 I don't imagine either of you would want to be and I can't think 653 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:37.639 of anybody who would, h how would you form? The only thing that 654 00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:42.440 these are schools, and that's the only thing that it could be used for. 655 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.559 It reminds me of asatomy laws which were used or for asked a men, 656 00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:51.239 uh and uh, yeah, So that's kind of what I want to 657 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:54.400 do. There's no practical way of at applying it in any like universal or 658 00:50:54.440 --> 00:51:00.840 fit way. Yeah. The whole bathroom band thing is it's a frustrating topic 659 00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:05.079 and also kind of a funny topic at the same time, because you're hitting 660 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.920 it right on the mark in that like, there is no good way to 661 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.480 enforce this, even if people thought that this is a necessary thing to do, 662 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:15.039 and you're right, really the only way to do it would be to 663 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:20.679 inspect everybody's genitals as they go into the bathroom, which is making it much 664 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:24.159 worse for the people that you're trying to protect, because if the goal is 665 00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:31.400 to prevent people from acting like that around women, you're now forcing everybody to 666 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:37.039 have that done to them. So it really contradicts the things that people are 667 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:43.679 saying they support with these bathroom bands. And you're right, there's nothing practical 668 00:51:43.719 --> 00:51:49.119 about it. There's no way that this can end well for anybody. And 669 00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.559 the way that I handle a lot of these discussions, at the end of 670 00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:55.960 the day, you have to at some point be willing to accept self id 671 00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.079 like. At some point you're going to have to get there because there's too 672 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:07.800 many variables involved with what categorizes you in one category or another. Where at 673 00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.719 what point do you draw the line between male and female? Like? Where 674 00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:16.440 do you put that? Because like, does it stop at like genital inspections, 675 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:22.079 does it stop at chromosome testing? Does it stop at like? I 676 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:25.320 don't know. There are so many variables and no matter how you define this, 677 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:30.199 at some point you're going to have to accept that not all of those 678 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.360 variables are going to line up. And so the concept even of a person 679 00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.280 who is a woman and who is a man like, no matter how you 680 00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:44.840 try to quantify that or qualify that based on physical attributes, you can't do 681 00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:47.760 it. You cannot do it purely on that. You have to allow for 682 00:52:47.880 --> 00:53:00.159 some level of self id Yeah, I think sorr phaps, but their physical 683 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:06.639 presentation is male and vice versa. And you also have for persons who have 684 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:12.679 an extra chromosome such as inclined filter syndrome and in other conditions where they may 685 00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:17.480 be x y y or x y x. So how do we fly those 686 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:22.599 folks? You know? And what do you do about intersex persons? You 687 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:28.679 know, realistically things are not merely as cut and dry as people want to 688 00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:34.519 make it out to be. And I just see these laws as not really 689 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.760 being about bathrooms, not really being about women at all, or about protecting 690 00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:44.280 women. It's really just a crude attempt at harassment, trying to make lafin 691 00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:50.960 even more difficult for a population that the person sponsoring these laws don't like. 692 00:53:52.280 --> 00:54:00.599 And it's really nothing more than using the legal system as a weapon. There's 693 00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:04.639 yeah, I think, I mean terribly. It doesn't remind me of a 694 00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:07.159 James Acaster is a British comedian. He makes a joke about how, you 695 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:09.400 know, we looked around and we're like, you know, who's had it 696 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.199 too good for too long? Trans people and so started you know, making 697 00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:19.840 these laws. But I fully agree with you on pretty much every point that 698 00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:24.119 it's all so much more complicated. But then bringing it back to just practicality, 699 00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:30.960 this isn't even necessarily about being trans. When we think about, like 700 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:35.400 I have a little boy and he comes into the bathroom with me, because 701 00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:37.960 I'm not going to have a two year old to go into a public qustroom 702 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:40.840 by himself. Right. Is there an age limit that they're going to include. 703 00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.519 What if they say by the age of seven they should be going into 704 00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:46.639 bathrooms by themselves? But I still don't feel safe at that with that in 705 00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:52.000 particular place where we are. What if at the age of five he looks 706 00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.280 like he's eight, because not everybody develops age wise on the same scale. 707 00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:59.440 So is someone going to stop and police me from taking my son into the 708 00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:02.639 bathroom my f all the most comfortable bringing him into where I can monitor what's 709 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:07.519 going on. Is that not going to be allowed because it's someone they would 710 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:15.239 identify as a boy in a women's restroom and just not to in any way 711 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:17.880 diminish the fact that I am not the most impacted party when it comes to 712 00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.920 these things. I am a cis woman. But I look at it and 713 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:27.480 I'm like, this impacts every person, even if they're thinking that it doesn't, 714 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:30.199 you know, I think about I grew up in kind of a Washington 715 00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:34.000 Eastern Oregon area, so I'm actually kind of from around where you are. 716 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:40.360 But there were women I knew who were extremely conservative Christian and who were extremely 717 00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:44.800 badass and like worked for like the Forest Service and things like that, and 718 00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:47.960 their presentation was very you know, could be seen as very masculine looking, 719 00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.000 and then when these laws started coming up, they were very for them. 720 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.239 And I was just kind of pointing out, like, you're going to put 721 00:55:55.239 --> 00:56:00.360 yourself in a position where someone's going to start just questioning your gender simply because 722 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:02.800 you've been out in the woods all day and you didn't do glam. You 723 00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:07.159 know that this is going to impact you as well. And that was something 724 00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:12.239 that was was a difficult argument for some reason to make simply because they didn't 725 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.960 see it that way. It's yeah, these impact everybody. Yeah, And 726 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:22.599 their end goal here, based on the way that they are framing it, 727 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:25.679 is like they don't want trans people in the bathroom period. Like all of 728 00:56:25.719 --> 00:56:30.000 these lead to, wherever they take it, they all lead to trans people 729 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:35.800 are not allowed in any bathroom. But go ahead, I want to hear 730 00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.039 your thoughts. Sorry, I wanted to detail on something that Sophia had just 731 00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:45.159 mentioned when she was talking about her child. This would also impact the parents 732 00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:52.119 of children who have autism or have mental parents. You know, there are 733 00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:58.440 some persons who physically may be twenty and twenty five years old and yet are 734 00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:04.880 not mentally a place where they can function independently, Say a person with downs, 735 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:09.039 what are you going to do about those folks? Going to scopardize that 736 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:13.920 community and say, okay, you're not allowed to use the restroom either. 737 00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:19.440 And the parents of these folks or their caregivers are now in a position where 738 00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:22.760 if they're not the same gender of that child, they can't go out in 739 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:27.760 public with them for fear of having to use a public restroom and be caught 740 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:34.320 up in this whole nonsense. It's really just creating nothing more than a clinement 741 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:39.679 of fear, harassment, division, and hate. And you know, there's 742 00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:45.800 a lot of persons out there that want to pretend that trans people haven't existed 743 00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:49.559 until recently. But I as somebody who grew up in the Catholic Church, 744 00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.519 I'm an atheist now antithiist actually, But having grown up Catholic, I remembered 745 00:57:53.519 --> 00:58:00.559 the pope Joe was a woman who became pope in the ninth century, believe 746 00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:06.719 it or not. And you know there has been in the historical record if 747 00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:10.440 you read back far enough, even the Greeks and the Romans trans people. 748 00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:15.800 You know, trans people have always been around, uh and always will be. 749 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:20.719 And these laws aren't going to make trans people go away. Uh. 750 00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:27.599 It's really nothing more than hate and division being directed at a community that has 751 00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.000 already got to do with entirely too much. You think, how you open 752 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:37.719 the news, but for some time I looked at them, I think, 753 00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:42.880 yeah, the audio is cutting out a little bit. Well, yeah, 754 00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:46.559 and I'm a I'm a trans guy that unfortunately has to use bathrooms, and 755 00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:52.400 like, the the absolute best answer to all of this is having like individual 756 00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:55.119 bathrooms with the door that goes all the way down to the floor and the 757 00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:58.960 walls that go all the way down the floor, so you can be private 758 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:01.760 in your own space and it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what body you 759 00:59:01.840 --> 00:59:07.199 have, because everybody is safe and everybody's like treated equally in that. But 760 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:13.039 yeah, the way these all these laws are working, and we see this 761 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:19.159 for for all varieties of trans people, but oftentimes people are focusing on trans 762 00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:21.920 women and whether or not they can use certain bathrooms, and they'll say, 763 00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:24.280 trans women, go use the men's bathroom, which you'll see on the media 764 00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:29.880 as well. Uh, people like pictures of a trans woman using a men's 765 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:32.760 bathroom and then them freaking out about that person being in there, like, 766 00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:37.320 well, this is the thing that you asked for. But then if something 767 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:40.239 that when you when you discuss with people, they even even the mention of 768 00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:45.760 trans men seems to throw the arguments like into interesting places because people forget that 769 00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:51.039 we exist at all, and so the arguments don't stand as soon as you 770 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.840 throw a transmand into the mix. Because if we're if the goal is to 771 00:59:53.880 --> 01:00:00.039 protect people who are assigned female, and you want all of them to be 772 01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:02.679 in their own private space because they don't believe that I'm a man. They 773 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:07.559 believe that I'm a confused woman, and so I should belong in the women's 774 01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.400 bathroom. But if I were to walk into a women's bathroom, people would 775 01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:15.920 be concerned and I get thrown out because I make people uncomfortable because I am 776 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:20.159 seen as a man. So then the alternative is, do am I allowed 777 01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:23.679 to use the men's bathroom? And like some people are okay with that, 778 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:28.360 but others are like, no, that's unsafe if you shouldn't be allowed to 779 01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:31.280 go in there, Like okay, where do we go we don't go out 780 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:37.159 in public, and that's that's it. So the whole arguments end up being 781 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:43.079 contradictory on all fronts. But yeah, it's a garbage argument. It's totally 782 01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:46.800 illogical and really just the bath Like, the thing about the bathrooms is there's 783 01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:51.519 no need for our bathrooms to exist the way that they currently do, and 784 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:53.159 the fact that we are looking at it is like, oh, we have 785 01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:57.639 to have this argument because what bathroom they're going to use? Like this system 786 01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:00.519 is so arbitrary, just just get rid of it. And that's that's how 787 01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:02.559 I feel about a lot of our systems, just like we don't have to 788 01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:07.480 make this thing that doesn't work keep working. We don't have to like try 789 01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:12.960 to revive this thing, just start over, do something better than this, 790 01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:15.039 because we can do something better than this. And it's a simple, it's 791 01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:19.519 a simple answer, Like it's not hard, and yet people want to make 792 01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:23.440 it so hard. Can you think of how much more emotionally and psychologically safe 793 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:28.679 high school in middle school would feel if you just had your own bathroom cubicle. 794 01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:34.199 Like I feel like some of the most intense feeling confrontations I ever had 795 01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:37.239 is like a sixth grade girl or in the bathroom. Yeah, I mean 796 01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:44.199 just I fully agree single stalls would make life better for everyone. Yep, 797 01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:47.480 Hry David were to say something, sure statue, Yeah if somebody who grew 798 01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:53.440 up as the shorter stature of your average male. The most terrifying moments of 799 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:58.360 my childhood took place in the school bathroom as well, you know, just 800 01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:00.320 for you know, because I couldn't send anybody off. They were like, 801 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:05.960 you know, a foot taller than me. But honestly, I think even 802 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:07.960 more practical, like even for the folks to sale, we don't want to 803 01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:12.280 spend all the money to do bathrooms differently, is why not just mind your 804 01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:15.800 own fucking business, right, Like, I don't care the rules you have 805 01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:21.079 here in the urimal next to me. If you can do it and you've 806 01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:22.719 got to go, I mean an important a storm, right. I mean 807 01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:27.679 I've been in positions where I had to go really bad before and for whatever 808 01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:31.320 reason, the mentor wasn't working or they're you know, this full of people 809 01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:35.119 or whatever. If you gotta go, you gotta go. Why do we 810 01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:38.280 have to have gender bathrooms at all? Like why not just way look whatever, 811 01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:45.280 just pay attention to your own business and don't bother other people. Yeah, 812 01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:49.039 and I mean, thinking about the notion, I feel very aware of 813 01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:52.360 privileging this conversation for myself, partially because I was just thinking about it. 814 01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:53.679 I'm like, I don't know the men's bathroom all the time, and I 815 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:55.639 know no one's ever going to call me on it because I do it because 816 01:02:55.639 --> 01:03:00.840 there's no line and I'm not a trans person, so I'll just be like, 817 01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:05.400 yeah, I went in there and whatever. And because the point of 818 01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:10.039 the law is so clearly to oppress trans people like I just sort of know 819 01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:15.519 it would never apply to me, which is so fucked up. I almost 820 01:03:15.559 --> 01:03:21.679 hesitate to say it because it feels weird to acknowledge that, like, yeah, 821 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.719 I can just do this thing obviously, but yeah, I don't know. 822 01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:28.960 I'm sorry. I don't have a great conclusion for that. It's just 823 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:35.000 sucking is horrible, that's all. Yeah. Well, thank you so much 824 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.920 for calling. There is another color we should jump on and get to. 825 01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:46.719 But I absolutely appreciate your perspective so much and definitely call in again if you 826 01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:52.079 have have some more thoughts to share today. It's been an interesting day in 827 01:03:52.480 --> 01:04:00.559 like thematically in my opinion, because it feels like there's this consistent theme of 828 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:05.840 people that religious folks or hardcore conservatives are willing to put on the chopping block 829 01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:13.239 for the sake of their agenda, whether it's about trans writes or abortion. 830 01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:16.960 It's like easy to list all of these other folks who will be impacted or 831 01:04:17.039 --> 01:04:25.639 all of these awful negative consequences to these bigotries and this legislation, and none 832 01:04:25.679 --> 01:04:28.840 of that seems to factor, and none of that seems to matter. And 833 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.119 it's just okay to sacrifice people, anybody, so long as they can get 834 01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:36.400 to the to the people they want to hurt, and that's yeah. And 835 01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:41.559 there seems to be like and this is something that goes back to kind of 836 01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:46.840 our discussion about exorcism, even the idea that there's a lot within religious culture 837 01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:53.039 of promoting a well, I'm just glad that's not me. I'm just glad 838 01:04:53.079 --> 01:04:59.679 it's not me. That's the dirty ciner or the gay person going through conversion 839 01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:04.840 there, or like a person struggling with addiction. People like people look at 840 01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:10.880 other people and they say, at least that's not me. And in order 841 01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:14.000 for this mindset to kind of carry forward, you need somebody else to look 842 01:05:14.039 --> 01:05:18.599 at to say I'm glad that's not me. And so no matter what time 843 01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:23.360 it is, you're going to find a group to think about that with. 844 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:28.320 And right now we've got multiple people on that chopping block. And if there's 845 01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:30.400 a point where these people are no longer around, are no longer acceptable, 846 01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:34.000 they'll move on to the next one. The whole kind of premise, even 847 01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:39.440 within the Bible, is like making people happy that they're not the other person, 848 01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:43.559 Like, not everybody's going to be saved. Be happy you're not those 849 01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:48.760 people, and so you're just scrambling to do a good enough job pleasing God 850 01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:53.559 so that you're not the person that gets thrown out. And I think that 851 01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:58.639 goes into a lot of the panic and a lot of the attempts to be 852 01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:01.880 the best Christian or the attempts to like put yourself out there as one of 853 01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:05.519 the good ones so that you don't end up in that other pile. And 854 01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:11.119 it's just it's fear on everybody's part, and I think that's something that it's 855 01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:15.920 so hard to get out of religion because of that feeling. And so people 856 01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:19.480 in religion are victims as well. And that's why I mean shameless plug here 857 01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:25.920 for recovering from religion. I know we haven't had specific talks today relating to 858 01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:30.519 that, but that's why we have organizations like r FR for people who have 859 01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:33.000 come from those backgrounds of being taught to think, well, I'm at least 860 01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:36.159 I'm not this other person, and then where do we go from there? 861 01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:40.840 So a lot of things contribute to this, and hopefully we can get to 862 01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:45.400 a place where we don't need to put other people aside, where we don't 863 01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:49.079 need to have these arbitrary laws just so that we can feel better about ourselves. 864 01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:53.840 I don't think we'll ever get there, but we can maybe take some 865 01:06:53.960 --> 01:07:00.480 steps and just reform our bathrooms, I know, maybe just make a little 866 01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:05.440 not as horrible for some people. On that note, I want to talk 867 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:10.760 about people that we do really appreciate to make make this possible, make it 868 01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:15.719 possible for us to have these conversations. And those are our top five patrons. 869 01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:20.480 Do you want to read the top five patrons for us there? Doctor 870 01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:23.599 Ben? Do you want me to go ahead? I don't have them in 871 01:07:23.639 --> 01:07:25.719 front of me. I'm sorry, I can go ahead and do it. 872 01:07:25.800 --> 01:07:29.679 Sorry about that, all right? So the top five patrons. Number one, 873 01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:32.559 we have Dingle Barry Jackson, who is just all these names are so 874 01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:38.519 incredible to me. I love them. Two Oops all Singularity, three devor 875 01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:41.960 Valjean, which I feel like is a rite of passage coming on the show 876 01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:45.719 to learn how to like pronounce some of the patron names, and that one 877 01:07:45.719 --> 01:07:50.480 I've alway struggled with a little bit more number four Kleevi Helvetti and five left 878 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:56.719 in the leaves. And this week we have an honorable mention for Michael Alessi, 879 01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:00.039 who is also a patron. So we appreciate the patrons so much. 880 01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.599 Thank you to everyone who gives to us on Patreon. If you want to 881 01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:06.400 have your name read on the air, then please consider supporting us at tiny 882 01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:13.000 dot cc slash patreon th and so that's just the word Patreon with THH for 883 01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:16.479 Talk Heathen at the end. And on that note, we have also started 884 01:08:16.520 --> 01:08:21.600 recording the Talk Heathen discord after show for all levels of paid patrons. So 885 01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:25.760 if you want more content and a more informal, you know, look and 886 01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:30.199 discussion with our hosts, then you can get that from Patreon. It's pretty 887 01:08:30.199 --> 01:08:33.039 cool whenever we have like a chat after sometimes it gets really deep. Sometimes 888 01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:36.600 it's just more about like who we are as people or just joking around in 889 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:40.840 the after show. So if you want to get to know us kind of 890 01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:44.119 a little bit better, then you get that content if you sign up for 891 01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:46.000 the for the Patreon. If you're not sick of me by the end of 892 01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:53.199 the show, and you'll be like, okay, yeah. So we have 893 01:08:53.720 --> 01:09:00.399 another call here that actually relates really well to what you were just talking about, 894 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:05.760 which is like recovering from religion. And so we have Tony who identifies 895 01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:11.920 as a theist and also he him in Virginia, and he's talking about going 896 01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:17.479 through deconstruction but has lingering fears and is stopping kind of at the final steps. 897 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:21.119 And so Tony tell us about what you're going through at the moment. 898 01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:25.960 Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And that was 899 01:09:25.960 --> 01:09:30.880 an excellent introduction. I appreciate that very much. And just to give a 900 01:09:30.920 --> 01:09:35.800 little bit of backstory, I grew up in the church, attended church all 901 01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:41.840 my life. I went to college to go into ministry. I worked in 902 01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:48.159 youth ministry, and in the course of my studies excuse me into I guess 903 01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:54.640 the early Christian Church and the way a lot of the tenants of Christian faith 904 01:09:55.239 --> 01:10:00.119 were established and so forth. Also just looking into details of the theology you 905 01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:03.399 of who the Christian got is. I used a phrase of the closer I 906 01:10:03.479 --> 01:10:08.560 looked, the more I started to see the cracks and things didn't make as 907 01:10:08.680 --> 01:10:11.800 much sense to me the more I look, and I found myself in kind 908 01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:16.319 of this perplexing position where you know, I not to to my own horn 909 01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:19.960 or anything, but I fancy myself, you know, of a certain level 910 01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:23.479 of intelligence, and I'm kind of like, you know, God, you 911 01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:27.720 gave me this brain and this ability to question and think logically and nationally and 912 01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:31.640 to understand complex concepts and ideas. And the more I utilized that gift giving 913 01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:35.720 me the less sense to me, and that ended of itself was very difficult 914 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:43.680 for me. And so that coupled with the fact that I lost a very 915 01:10:43.720 --> 01:10:47.279 good friend of mine in cancer got twelve years ago. And while I was 916 01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:51.479 when that happened, I was studying to go into the ministry on a Christian 917 01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:56.159 college campus. I was attending church at a Christian church, working as a 918 01:10:56.199 --> 01:11:00.479 youth minister at that church, and I was going through the artist period of 919 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:04.640 my life, having lost my best friend and never felt more alone. I 920 01:11:04.680 --> 01:11:08.840 didn't have anybody checking up on me. I didn't have anybody saying, you 921 01:11:08.880 --> 01:11:11.199 know, hey, man, you go okay? And like I was missing 922 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:14.800 classes, I was missing engagements with friends, I was missing fraternity events and 923 01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:16.399 things like that, and like all the figns are there that I was going 924 01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:20.720 through something dark, and I'm like, supposedly all these people are in Dwelt 925 01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:24.560 with the same holy spirit that I think that I'm in Gwilt with. Why 926 01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:28.720 the heck is nobody checking in on me here? You know? Why? 927 01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:32.600 Am I just drifting alone? And that sent me to some dark places. 928 01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:35.279 I don't want to trigger anybody, but you can. You can draw your 929 01:11:35.319 --> 01:11:40.560 own conclusions. And that was kind of the beginning and the end for me. 930 01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:43.840 So for the last you know, twelve years, I've been going through 931 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:45.520 this period. At first, it was just sort of like living however I 932 01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:48.239 want that. I sort of came back to a place of like, I 933 01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:54.199 don't really know what I believe and I find a piece of together and I 934 01:11:54.720 --> 01:11:59.760 still have these there's I'll call it what it is. It's a desire. 935 01:12:00.359 --> 01:12:05.079 I have a desire to want. I want there to be some meaning and 936 01:12:05.159 --> 01:12:11.439 some purpose for life beyond the tangible universe. I want there to be something 937 01:12:11.560 --> 01:12:15.720 supernatural. I want there to be some meaning behind this, and I think 938 01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:19.079 that may be the linch pin that's keeping me holding on. But there are 939 01:12:19.079 --> 01:12:23.359 also these lingering doubts in the back of my mind that you know, if 940 01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:27.039 I were to die tomorrow, that you know, I'd be staring Satan or 941 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:30.800 God or some other entity in the face. And you know that these things 942 01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:33.960 that I believe my whole life are actually true. And you know, I'm 943 01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:36.000 sure you guys have been there, if you've ever been at this, So 944 01:12:38.159 --> 01:12:43.119 that is as a stainct, say, background, as I can give you. 945 01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:46.199 And I guess I'm at the point where I either want to just decide 946 01:12:46.199 --> 01:12:50.680 that I believe that there is there's some purpose and meaningful life and I'm just 947 01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:56.760 looking for that, or that there's nothing and move forward with whatever that means. 948 01:12:57.079 --> 01:13:01.439 And I don't. I don't really feel any overwhelming push in either direct 949 01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:05.439 and yeah, just trying to make sense that things ultimately truth is what matters 950 01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:08.479 to be fact, So what matters to me. I want to know what 951 01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:15.520 is actually accurate and true. I alts want to delude myself into a complacency, 952 01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:19.640 you know, I want to first start by being like that is you're 953 01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:24.760 joking about as sustinct as you could make it, but it's actually very rich 954 01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:29.279 in detail your story. Also, I want to acknowledge like how difficult it 955 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:33.800 is to go through those things alone, and that I'm sorry that happened that 956 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:38.600 you were just sort of left hanging and people that you were told or your 957 01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:41.479 community and you have this in common with that, you know, you have 958 01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:44.960 the same Holy Spirit inside of you simply weren't there, because that makes it 959 01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:48.279 so much harder to kind of keep enduring through difficult things when you've always been 960 01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:54.560 told you'll be sustained through these difficult things, you'll be given this this energy 961 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:59.079 and you know this community, and then it just disappears when things get hard. 962 01:14:00.439 --> 01:14:05.920 That sucks so bad. So just mentioning that. But your your story 963 01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:13.199 is I relate to so many aspects of it a lot. One big one 964 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:17.319 is the sphere of hell. Like I've mentioned on the show before that I 965 01:14:18.399 --> 01:14:23.760 had a hard time letting that go. And even if I intellectually knew and 966 01:14:23.920 --> 01:14:27.840 even through reading the Bible and like hell is not as we as you know 967 01:14:28.199 --> 01:14:31.880 an evangelical church would have ever described it, knowing that wasn't enough because it 968 01:14:31.960 --> 01:14:41.600 had been so deeply ingrained into into my faith, my conception of myself had 969 01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:45.239 to be a little different because I'm like, where does my morality come from? 970 01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:47.920 I felt like if I let it all go, it would become so 971 01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:51.760 chaotic and I wouldn't be able to figure out what I was supposed to be 972 01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:57.479 doing. There was always sort of a manuscript, or not manuscript, but 973 01:14:57.640 --> 01:15:00.239 like a sequence you would go through that if you don't know what to do, 974 01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:02.399 you know, read the Bible, talk to a past or, pray, 975 01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:06.840 and it would just sort of come to you. And if I didn't 976 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:12.399 have that to do, then how would I find my own morality? It's 977 01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:16.039 scary to lose all of that. It's also scary to tell people in your 978 01:15:16.039 --> 01:15:19.479 life who knew you as a Christian that you don't believe that anymore. That 979 01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:27.479 you've moved forward. I think I'm curious. I guess about you mentioned that 980 01:15:27.520 --> 01:15:30.520 you're at this point where you want to sort of choose one or the other. 981 01:15:31.279 --> 01:15:35.840 Why are you feeling urgency around that choice? And it's hard to sit 982 01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:40.119 in this middle where you're not sure yet, but it feels like you feel 983 01:15:40.119 --> 01:15:47.920 a push to sort of make something feel final. What's happening there? You 984 01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:51.560 know, I don't know. I haven't really considered that. That's something I 985 01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:56.840 think I might chew on for a little bit, but I think to a 986 01:15:56.920 --> 01:16:01.239 large extent, it's an aspect of my personality. I don't like making decisions. 987 01:16:01.319 --> 01:16:04.680 I don't like making choices, and so I will sit down and I 988 01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:08.199 will wrestle with a thing, and I will make my decision, and then 989 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:13.000 unless compelling evidence comes along to convince me to change that decision, to change 990 01:16:13.079 --> 01:16:18.800 that decision, I'll stick to it. Like I decided what my style of 991 01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:23.000 dress is going to be twenty five years ago and I haven't changed. Like 992 01:16:23.079 --> 01:16:26.239 there's just different colors, but otherwise it's the same shirt, same genes, 993 01:16:26.319 --> 01:16:29.560 same you know, Like I have one outfit in multiple colors because I don't 994 01:16:29.560 --> 01:16:30.840 want to have to make that decision, you know, And I just want 995 01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:32.479 to get to a point where I'm like, Okay, this is what I 996 01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:35.560 believe, this is why I believe it, and I don't want to think 997 01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:40.079 about it anymore. And it's just sort of it's the way I operate. 998 01:16:40.119 --> 01:16:43.039 It's very annoying to I mean, significant others. I've had in my life. 999 01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:49.640 But I don't know. I don't know if there's anything pressing aside from 1000 01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:55.239 the fact that I I guess maybe I want. I want some peace of 1001 01:16:55.359 --> 01:17:00.520 mind. I want if there truly is nothing more than what exist in the 1002 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:03.600 corporal of the universe, and when we're done, we simply cease to exist, 1003 01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:10.000 then I want to begin operating in that to maximize the time that I 1004 01:17:10.119 --> 01:17:12.800 have here and make the most out of what I have here. And if 1005 01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:15.439 there's not, if it is the case that there is some purposes, some 1006 01:17:15.560 --> 01:17:20.079 meaning behind it, like even if it's not within the Christian faith, you 1007 01:17:20.159 --> 01:17:25.159 know, if it's something other than that, that I want to begin operating 1008 01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:29.079 in that and pursuing that to the highest level that I'm capable of. And 1009 01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:32.600 as I've been deconstructing, I realize that, you know, growing up as 1010 01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:36.359 a Christian, when I heard other faiths and belief structures and philosophies and so 1011 01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:42.159 forth, I sort of address them the same way that we kind of address 1012 01:17:42.479 --> 01:17:45.920 the ancient breaking Roman pantheons of gods. You know, we talk about breaking 1013 01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:49.439 Roman mythology and we dismiss it with that word mythology. And I think that 1014 01:17:49.800 --> 01:17:54.279 that overlooks the fact that for the better part of however, many hundreds of 1015 01:17:54.399 --> 01:17:57.319 years, you know, much of the known world lived and died under those 1016 01:17:57.359 --> 01:18:02.439 religions and people, would you know what I learned about Buddhism and Confucianism and 1017 01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:06.279 Hinduism and Islam and all the other religions out there. I dismissed them with 1018 01:18:06.399 --> 01:18:09.600 that same like, oh, well, I know what the truth is. 1019 01:18:09.680 --> 01:18:12.880 These are just quite little folk beliefs of other people around the world, you 1020 01:18:12.960 --> 01:18:14.840 know. But I know what the truth is. I know it, I 1021 01:18:14.960 --> 01:18:17.279 know reality is. And so I stepped back and I said, I've never 1022 01:18:17.359 --> 01:18:21.760 really addressed these other faiths on their own terms, and I started looking into 1023 01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:28.800 them more deeply and more genuine And as I've done that, there are certain 1024 01:18:29.239 --> 01:18:33.319 ideals and tenants that are almost universal. The Golden Rule, for example, 1025 01:18:33.439 --> 01:18:36.520 shows up in some way, shape or form, and so many different philosophies 1026 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:41.760 from around the world, which I think is, is you know something that's 1027 01:18:41.880 --> 01:18:44.439 relating to human nature of the fact that we all just want to be treated 1028 01:18:44.479 --> 01:18:47.560 a certain way. I've come to this idea that what if, what if 1029 01:18:47.600 --> 01:18:51.279 the point of religion is to grow beyond the need for it? What if 1030 01:18:54.239 --> 01:18:58.439 it's it's our training wheels to get us to a point where we no longer 1031 01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:02.000 require the prominence, paradise or the threat of damnation to be a good person. 1032 01:19:02.079 --> 01:19:05.880 We simply become good people because it's the right thing to do. And 1033 01:19:06.880 --> 01:19:11.159 maybe that's what this is really all about. And you know, that's sort 1034 01:19:11.199 --> 01:19:14.319 of the limb that I'm on right now, is wondering if if we're not 1035 01:19:14.600 --> 01:19:18.159 simply meant to grow beyond the need for you know, threat characteristics, if 1036 01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:24.640 you prefer yeah, yeah, I think people because you know, I don't 1037 01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:28.199 mean to hijack the shaft, right, I could talk for we're letting you 1038 01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:30.880 know, it's you're saying interesting things we care about. That's you're not hijacking 1039 01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:34.520 things. It's fine. And I think I think you're going in the right 1040 01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:40.199 direction. And I think I think you're going to be going a similar direction 1041 01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:44.640 that both of us have have gone on. Just I want to point out 1042 01:19:44.680 --> 01:19:49.199 something interesting that you're saying with like the idea that what if religion is meant 1043 01:19:49.239 --> 01:19:53.039 for us to grow beyond it? And I think that's an okay thing to 1044 01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:57.840 start from based on on where we're at in this conversation. But looking at 1045 01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:01.319 a lot of the things that religion has done. Unfortunately we start off our 1046 01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:06.039 training wheels are incredibly flawed, and our training wheels stick with us. We 1047 01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:10.159 have a bias that goes forward. We have things that we anchor on, 1048 01:20:10.279 --> 01:20:14.279 We have things that like our brain has developed kind of around the society that 1049 01:20:14.359 --> 01:20:16.680 we live in and around the stimuli that we perceive in the way that we 1050 01:20:16.800 --> 01:20:20.720 look at the world. And even if there are some things that are positive 1051 01:20:21.079 --> 01:20:27.279 that religion has done, there's also a lot of garbage that we're taught and 1052 01:20:27.399 --> 01:20:30.640 if we're letting that be our training wheels, that can be incredibly problematic. 1053 01:20:30.680 --> 01:20:35.199 And that's why people have trauma and leaving religion. And so I'm not saying 1054 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:40.199 that everything that we learn from that is something that we need to throw away, 1055 01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:45.479 but I would maybe suggest using some caution in saying that, like religion 1056 01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:49.079 is something that we have, like that has as a purpose and letting us 1057 01:20:49.159 --> 01:20:56.039 grow from it. I see the desire of wanting to wanting to have a 1058 01:20:56.079 --> 01:21:00.159 positive spin on things that we used to believe or positive outlook on things that 1059 01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:05.279 happened to us. But I think maybe, and maybe I want to ask 1060 01:21:05.319 --> 01:21:10.079 you this question of why do you feel like you need to hold on to 1061 01:21:10.199 --> 01:21:14.159 these pieces. I get it's hard to let things go, but I think 1062 01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:17.079 really what's going to help us go in a direction is kind of unpacking what's 1063 01:21:17.239 --> 01:21:24.039 keeping you in this space. Well, I do want to respond to something 1064 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:28.279 that you said they were playing and move on the go for it. You 1065 01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:30.960 know that the religion has done terrible things, and so often on the show, 1066 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:36.039 I hear your hosts talk about the importance of defining terms, and maybe 1067 01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:41.159 I should have done that initially. I would define religion as the belief structures 1068 01:21:41.159 --> 01:21:45.239 in one of themselves, and not necessarily the deeds and actions those belief structures 1069 01:21:45.239 --> 01:21:48.319 and so forth. Not to say that there aren't negative aspects of the belief 1070 01:21:48.319 --> 01:21:53.479 structures, but essensibly, in a very broad sense, I think religion as 1071 01:21:53.600 --> 01:21:57.840 the thing which seeks to tell us how to be the best versions of ourselves 1072 01:21:57.880 --> 01:22:00.359 that we can be. They don't all get it right. That is O 1073 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:04.079 sensibly sort of what the rail on deetra is, so to speak. So 1074 01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:09.720 that's I appreciate the correction on that. That's uh, that's helpful, but 1075 01:22:10.159 --> 01:22:15.840 uh, the I guess the thing that's keeping me holding on is a desire 1076 01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:20.800 to make the right choice. I don't want to go out on the limb 1077 01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:25.520 and know I'm one hundred percent certain it's not going to break and fall out 1078 01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:29.159 under me. And if you know the consequences of going out on the wrong 1079 01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:35.039 limb means spending eternity the wrong place or you know, not making the most 1080 01:22:35.119 --> 01:22:38.479 of my life. I mean, you know, the stakes couldn't be hired, 1081 01:22:38.720 --> 01:22:42.600 you know, but are you are you going to be one hundred percent 1082 01:22:42.720 --> 01:22:54.960 sure either way? Can you achieve that? Uh? I know that's our 1083 01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:59.479 question. It's our question, But like I get the paralysis of wanting to 1084 01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:01.359 make the right desion and not being able to move because you're not sure where 1085 01:23:01.399 --> 01:23:04.079 to go. But like, and that's that's the unfortunate thing here, is 1086 01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:08.720 that at some point you're going to have to accept something that you're not one 1087 01:23:08.800 --> 01:23:11.960 hundred percent certain about and you don't have to be like, that's not the 1088 01:23:12.039 --> 01:23:16.760 expectation. Like it's going to come down to what am I like more certain 1089 01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:21.199 of And even in that, like you don't have to necessarily jump to something 1090 01:23:21.319 --> 01:23:26.600 else to have a sense of this thing that I'm currently in is not it. 1091 01:23:27.079 --> 01:23:29.720 And I think that's where a lot of us end up starting, and 1092 01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:32.319 a lot of us are still there, like we don't necessarily know what the 1093 01:23:32.439 --> 01:23:36.159 right thing is. A lot of us would call ourselves agnostic atheists to say, 1094 01:23:36.520 --> 01:23:41.439 I don't know for certain any of these things, but I'm pretty comfortable 1095 01:23:41.439 --> 01:23:45.600 in saying it's not Christianity. I'm pretty confident in saying it's not Islam, 1096 01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:49.319 it's not these other things. I don't know what it is exactly. I 1097 01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:55.359 have some ideas about what is real in this in this universe, but like, 1098 01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:58.840 I'm not as worried about like what is the thing I jump to? 1099 01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:01.520 But at least I can narrow down my answer choices and say, well, 1100 01:24:01.600 --> 01:24:05.760 this one's not a right answer. And so maybe that's comforting in a way 1101 01:24:05.840 --> 01:24:11.079 of like it's scary to not have certainty. But more of us are in 1102 01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:15.760 that space of like I'm not really certain of anything. I'm just more comfortable 1103 01:24:15.800 --> 01:24:20.520 at saying this is less likely to be true. And That's where I'm at, 1104 01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:25.279 And I'm curious to hear both of your thoughts on that. Yeah, 1105 01:24:25.560 --> 01:24:28.159 I think I want to address a couple of things, and then I don't 1106 01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:29.880 want to cut you off, but I do want to get to like our 1107 01:24:30.199 --> 01:24:31.640 kind of one last caller, and we're reaching the end of the show. 1108 01:24:31.760 --> 01:24:40.119 But I'm first I would want to say that the discussion over what religion is 1109 01:24:40.600 --> 01:24:46.039 or isn't is interesting and difficult, and also happens in atheist spaces because not 1110 01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:50.479 all atheists feel the same way about the faith that they left. Not an 1111 01:24:50.479 --> 01:24:57.199 atheist ever had a faith, So there's quite a bit of diversity of what 1112 01:24:57.319 --> 01:25:00.560 we think. And you can still feel like you these good things from faith 1113 01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:06.079 and religion and now you don't believe it, but still acknowledge those things. 1114 01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:13.479 I personally have a hard time kind of finding this finding a middle there. 1115 01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:15.199 I think that there were some I don't know who I would be if I 1116 01:25:15.479 --> 01:25:18.760 wasn't without it, But that's simply because or if I didn't grow up with 1117 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:23.800 religion. But that's simply because I can't know. I don't know if it 1118 01:25:23.920 --> 01:25:26.199 was better for me or worse for me. I can tell you ways in 1119 01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:31.119 which both could be argued, but I think for me, like I eventually 1120 01:25:31.199 --> 01:25:35.560 sort of asked myself, what what do I what evidence would convince me of 1121 01:25:36.079 --> 01:25:40.600 a god? And what evidence do I need to believe the Bible specifically, 1122 01:25:42.359 --> 01:25:47.000 And I needed more confirmation of the text personally, I needed to figure it, 1123 01:25:47.159 --> 01:25:50.319 like is this reliable? Who actually wrote it? How do we know? 1124 01:25:50.560 --> 01:25:55.239 How is this decided? And the more I got into that, the 1125 01:25:55.359 --> 01:25:57.640 more I was like, all right, that was the evidence I would need, 1126 01:25:57.720 --> 01:26:00.960 and it was coming up incredibly short in ways that I had never known 1127 01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:06.159 before. So I'm curious as to what it is. What evidence are you 1128 01:26:06.239 --> 01:26:11.279 looking for? You know, because you're looking for an answer, but what 1129 01:26:11.600 --> 01:26:16.760 could that answer look like for you? I feel like we've asked you a 1130 01:26:16.840 --> 01:26:28.960 lot of really big questions too, and I think we do even yeah, 1131 01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:33.039 and even of course, like I want us to kind of get through these 1132 01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:38.079 points, but I would love for you to also call back other times because 1133 01:26:38.159 --> 01:26:40.640 I feel like we have an infinite amount of things we can discuss with you, 1134 01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:45.119 and you've You've been a very polite and genuine caller and I so even 1135 01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:47.800 if there's things we don't get to today, I still want to have these 1136 01:26:47.840 --> 01:26:53.159 conversations. I would love for us to keep to keep discussing. Yeah, 1137 01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:56.680 I think we've given you a lot of big questions that we ask ourselves too, 1138 01:26:58.039 --> 01:27:00.560 and unfortunately get we got to get going. So I'm going to drop 1139 01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:02.640 you, but thank you so much for calling and please please call back because 1140 01:27:02.640 --> 01:27:05.079 I want to know, give you some time to think about this and then 1141 01:27:05.159 --> 01:27:10.399 come call back and let us know what you think. So I'm super curious 1142 01:27:10.399 --> 01:27:15.680 about that. So I am thank thank you for the time and for the 1143 01:27:15.079 --> 01:27:25.199 thoughtful questions and just to fight this to summarize everything, I think whatever is 1144 01:27:25.279 --> 01:27:29.720 going to uh make me the best version of myself, there is going to 1145 01:27:29.720 --> 01:27:33.760 be the answer that I'm I'm ultimately looking for, soay, whatever that may 1146 01:27:33.840 --> 01:27:38.000 be, I don't know, but that's ultimately what I'm striving towards. And 1147 01:27:38.319 --> 01:27:41.199 I've certainly taken a lot out of my faith in the past, but I've 1148 01:27:41.239 --> 01:27:45.399 also become a much better version of myself moving away from my faith because you 1149 01:27:45.479 --> 01:27:47.439 know, uh yeah, my Christian faith, you know, to put me 1150 01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:51.439 against LGBT issues and things like that. And I have since come around and 1151 01:27:51.560 --> 01:27:55.399 being like, no, like people are people and you know, love and 1152 01:27:55.479 --> 01:28:00.079 love and everything else. Yeah, yeah, so there's some and you know, 1153 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:04.000 in all areas of human experience. But thank you again. I don't 1154 01:28:04.000 --> 01:28:12.840 want to keep any further and I call back definitely what interesting polite people we've 1155 01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:15.039 had today. I feel very privileged to have had the callers. We do 1156 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:20.199 to be honest, I do want to I have been remiss in making announcements 1157 01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:26.760 because I've been really focused on the callers. So it yeah, I supposed 1158 01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:28.960 to do this after the first call and I have not been doing that. 1159 01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:31.399 And I want to hit on one one super chat before we get into that. 1160 01:28:32.760 --> 01:28:39.399 Another one from David Tech, who gave ten Canadian saying that bathroom should 1161 01:28:39.399 --> 01:28:44.359 be divided between standing and sitting, which it's an option, this option as 1162 01:28:44.399 --> 01:28:47.560 well. Thank you for another super chat, David. It's also a joke 1163 01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:51.239 in The Simpsons that most of his lack makes about like he's labeled his bathroom 1164 01:28:51.279 --> 01:28:56.279 stand ups and sit downs. But so I'm like, you know, maybe 1165 01:28:56.359 --> 01:29:01.359 Mo was onto something. Yeah, So our announcements, it's time for our 1166 01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:08.279 annual back Cruise fundraiser. It is coming up in August. Join us on 1167 01:29:08.359 --> 01:29:13.760 August twenty fourth with Forrest Valcai j, Mike's Secularity, and many other familiar 1168 01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:15.920 faces that you've probably seen on this channel. They'll all be in attendance. 1169 01:29:17.119 --> 01:29:21.960 Get more information and buy your tickets at tiny dot cc slash bat Cruise. 1170 01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:28.079 The bat Cruise is super fun. You should totally go there's a lot of 1171 01:29:28.159 --> 01:29:31.319 cool people who are super nice and it's fun to get to you know, 1172 01:29:31.479 --> 01:29:38.000 meet your hosts and hang out. So big one first, back, cruise 1173 01:29:38.279 --> 01:29:43.399 second, become a channel member. Click the join button below this video and 1174 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:47.079 you'll get custom chat emotes, early access to clips and shorts, and you 1175 01:29:47.119 --> 01:29:51.439 will help perpetuate the mission of Talk Heathen and the atheist community of Austin. 1176 01:29:53.600 --> 01:29:57.840 So that we would so appreciate that. Yeah, join the channel. So 1177 01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:01.199 one back, cruise two, join, become channel member. Three, Send 1178 01:30:01.239 --> 01:30:05.840 a super chat. We read super chats on the air as many as we 1179 01:30:05.960 --> 01:30:11.479 can send a super chat with a comment or a question, and as you 1180 01:30:11.640 --> 01:30:13.840 kind of can tell, like, some of them are just real simple. 1181 01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:16.239 Others are sort of teasing and fun and you know, hey, get your 1182 01:30:16.239 --> 01:30:18.479 opinion it on the air for a few books, or make a joke or 1183 01:30:18.520 --> 01:30:24.560 whatever you want. But we definitely love to read them. Press like on 1184 01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:30.359 the video and subscribe to the channel to enable notifications. Comment below, like 1185 01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:32.159 on your favorite color. Who did you love to hear from today? I 1186 01:30:32.239 --> 01:30:35.840 would also say that today we've had a lot of discussion of things that impact 1187 01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:40.399 a lot of different people, and I personally don't have all the answers, 1188 01:30:40.479 --> 01:30:44.720 so comment like things you think maybe that we missed or something that you're like, 1189 01:30:44.800 --> 01:30:45.920 you know, actually, maybe a better way to go about that or 1190 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:50.159 to say that is this, Like, I'm open to that discussion and would 1191 01:30:50.199 --> 01:30:54.520 really love to know what you all think, because I feel like we have 1192 01:30:54.680 --> 01:30:59.880 really cool smart viewers, and I mean half the comments are just being like 1193 01:31:00.159 --> 01:31:04.039 you're gonna go to hell, but other than that, you know, yeah, 1194 01:31:04.239 --> 01:31:09.840 let me let me know your thoughts. We also have merch, so 1195 01:31:10.479 --> 01:31:15.439 yeah, cool talk keithen aca merch. Get yours at tiny dot cc slash 1196 01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:19.880 merch a c A that's n E r c h A c A. You 1197 01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:24.199 can get t shirts, mugs, hats you can see they're on the screen. 1198 01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:27.920 There's some cool like phone cases. You can get a workout tank top. 1199 01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:30.640 It feel really epic and the badass talk heathen letters, lift and weights 1200 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:35.119 or something. I mean for those who work out. I personally haven't really 1201 01:31:35.239 --> 01:31:39.079 so much dabbled in that culture. But if that's you, then great. 1202 01:31:39.479 --> 01:31:42.680 So first, join the back crew, Second, become a channel member. 1203 01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:46.640 Third, send a super chat, fourth, like and subscribe, write comments 1204 01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:50.600 on this video. We want to know what you think. And lastly, 1205 01:31:51.039 --> 01:31:56.399 we have merch so you can wrap hak Heathen wherever you are. So, 1206 01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:02.159 yes, all the announcements their super chat. Speaking of super chats, Jamie 1207 01:32:02.319 --> 01:32:06.960 Gallier sends nine ninety nine and says great show with three hearts. Thank you, 1208 01:32:08.119 --> 01:32:11.399 Jamie. And that's another example of how you can send a super chat 1209 01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:14.920 and be heard on the air. Yeah, you could just compliment us too, 1210 01:32:15.039 --> 01:32:17.199 that's cool, Like we're not gonna I'm not going to say her to 1211 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:20.000 that if you just want to be like you guys are super realiant and amazing 1212 01:32:20.159 --> 01:32:25.239 and should run the world and like great, thank you, except for doctor 1213 01:32:25.239 --> 01:32:28.800 Ben won't run banks, as we've established that will be the no banks, 1214 01:32:29.159 --> 01:32:34.159 no banks for doctor Ben. Yeah. So we have this sort of one 1215 01:32:34.279 --> 01:32:40.239 last call that I am definitely curious to hear from. So we have Niica 1216 01:32:41.279 --> 01:32:45.760 she Her who is an atheist in New York and asks could trans allies use 1217 01:32:45.840 --> 01:32:54.079 the quote unquote incorrect bathroom to de gender all bathroom spaces. So that's an 1218 01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:57.359 interesting idea. Tell us what you're thinking there, Nica, Hi, Hi, 1219 01:32:57.479 --> 01:32:59.720 doctor Ben, Hi, Sophia, thank you so much for thank you 1220 01:32:59.800 --> 01:33:01.239 much. I know at the end of the show, so I'll try to 1221 01:33:01.239 --> 01:33:06.479 make it quick. What if maybe just for Pride not or just forever, 1222 01:33:08.079 --> 01:33:14.159 just to normalize people to use whatever bathroom they feel like it at the time, 1223 01:33:14.319 --> 01:33:18.359 So I would use an assist female. I would use male bathrooms of 1224 01:33:18.479 --> 01:33:23.439 course if and when it's if and when it's safe, but kind of to 1225 01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:30.680 just normalize people being in different bathrooms so that it just confuses the biggest Yeah, 1226 01:33:31.079 --> 01:33:35.279 I think that, like, if people are comfortable doing something like that, 1227 01:33:35.760 --> 01:33:42.760 I think peaceful ways of inspiring social change is an okay thing to do, 1228 01:33:43.159 --> 01:33:45.880 like just keep it safe, keep it respectful. But I think that 1229 01:33:46.039 --> 01:33:50.479 that's a great thing if people feel so inclined to do that. And my 1230 01:33:50.840 --> 01:33:55.840 opinion is to defer to doctor Benn and those who are more affected by than 1231 01:33:55.880 --> 01:33:59.840 I am on this particular issue, and if it's felt that that is helpful 1232 01:34:00.079 --> 01:34:06.119 and then awesome, and yeah, that's kind of my take is if that's 1233 01:34:06.199 --> 01:34:12.159 helpful and folks who know more than I do about this are like, yeah, 1234 01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:15.319 go for it, then then that's my take. That's awesome. Okay, 1235 01:34:15.840 --> 01:34:20.000 maybe we need to start a campaign for people, especially for Pride months, 1236 01:34:20.079 --> 01:34:30.119 to just use whatever bathroom that would upset people. The most upsetting bathroom 1237 01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:33.800 the Satanist bathroom around the corner. That's going to be the Sorry. Yeah, 1238 01:34:34.039 --> 01:34:39.119 I mean I'm all in favor of things like malicious compliance and if there 1239 01:34:39.159 --> 01:34:42.960 are certain rules that pop up and it's like, well, you can't do 1240 01:34:43.079 --> 01:34:46.399 this because insert arbitrary reason here. You know, I'm all in favor of 1241 01:34:46.880 --> 01:34:51.239 just you know, following the rule to such an extreme that it defeats their 1242 01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:55.520 argument. Like, I think those things are great. I think those things 1243 01:34:55.560 --> 01:35:00.119 are great. It shows people where their arguments fall, usually depending on the 1244 01:35:00.159 --> 01:35:04.079 situation. A lot of times those things are really inconsequential things for us, 1245 01:35:04.199 --> 01:35:09.359 like using the wrong bathroom, et cetera. Like it's such a small thing, 1246 01:35:09.439 --> 01:35:12.319 but people get very worked up about it. So I think, if 1247 01:35:12.399 --> 01:35:15.159 that's something that people feel comfortable doing, go for it. Try it, 1248 01:35:15.399 --> 01:35:19.199 see see how it works for you. I'd be curious to kind of see, 1249 01:35:19.600 --> 01:35:24.960 like from a social experiment perspective, like how people would react to something 1250 01:35:25.039 --> 01:35:28.520 like that, kind of what what things would would come from it. Go 1251 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:32.039 for it. Yeah, I think also as a swoman myself, our bathroom 1252 01:35:32.039 --> 01:35:34.640 lines are extremely long, so it would be very easier to be like, 1253 01:35:34.920 --> 01:35:41.880 I'm gonna use that one because there's no line. Yeah, well cool, 1254 01:35:41.880 --> 01:35:43.520 Well, thank you for calling. You know, that was like a little 1255 01:35:43.560 --> 01:35:45.760 bit of a short one, but thanks for calling. NKA. Yeah, 1256 01:35:45.840 --> 01:35:48.880 thank you so much. Guys, have a great after show, ye you 1257 01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:53.560 to thank you great Sunday. I'm such a dorg. I just said you 1258 01:35:53.640 --> 01:35:57.000 too for have a great after show, which is not Hey, join us 1259 01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:00.520 on that after show with us. Yeah, yes, you too can have 1260 01:36:00.640 --> 01:36:09.239 a good after show as well. Also you'll be having some Yeah. So 1261 01:36:09.800 --> 01:36:13.760 that is going to be our last call for today. So remember that the 1262 01:36:13.840 --> 01:36:17.920 prompt for this week is what is Jesus really saving us from? Reply in 1263 01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:23.520 the comments below this video and tune in at the beginning of next week's episode 1264 01:36:23.560 --> 01:36:28.760 to hear the top three answers. We want to thank Richard Gulliver for helping 1265 01:36:28.840 --> 01:36:33.079 us out. Jilliver, Jiliver, I'm sorry. I'm gonna move a boss. 1266 01:36:33.800 --> 01:36:43.720 I know. Good thing I don't get paid for this. True is 1267 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:46.199 backup hosting today? Yeah, what did you think of the show? What 1268 01:36:46.359 --> 01:36:49.760 was your take? Favorite career, great conversations, great to see you and 1269 01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:57.000 Ben holsting together for the first time, a great fantastic chemistry there by the 1270 01:36:57.079 --> 01:37:00.880 way, really on fire, and great conversation all around. I particularly enjoyed 1271 01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:04.800 that. I think it was Tony's call about, you know, the kind 1272 01:37:04.840 --> 01:37:10.039 of way he was thinking. I'm always bewildered. I do a little bit 1273 01:37:10.079 --> 01:37:14.079 of stuff with theology and kind of looking at the early Christian Church and stuff, 1274 01:37:14.359 --> 01:37:16.680 and I'm always bewildered because I don't know what it's like in the US, 1275 01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:20.800 but in Britain, the Church of England kind of vicars and priests and 1276 01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:27.720 stuff have to go through university and they learn about this stuff. They learn 1277 01:37:27.760 --> 01:37:30.720 about the early Church, they learn about how the theology was formed, they 1278 01:37:30.840 --> 01:37:36.159 learned about the economical councils and all of that stuff. And I always find 1279 01:37:36.199 --> 01:37:42.920 it bewildering how you can go through that process and still remain religious, because 1280 01:37:43.000 --> 01:37:46.520 it's so obvious when you look at that stuff and how it kind of built 1281 01:37:46.600 --> 01:37:53.800 on things, and so little bits from kind of Platonism and little bits from 1282 01:37:53.840 --> 01:37:57.880 the Old Testament and marriage them together, and there were so many different theological 1283 01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:01.000 concepts, and you know, they literally got together and hashed it out, 1284 01:38:01.319 --> 01:38:05.119 which were the right concepts in which we're going to be seen as orthodox and 1285 01:38:05.399 --> 01:38:09.920 who was going to be kicked out of the church hall in non orthodox views, 1286 01:38:10.359 --> 01:38:14.039 and it bewilders me that there's all that there in plain sight, that 1287 01:38:14.199 --> 01:38:17.039 these people actually have to study it and they still come out of it believing. 1288 01:38:17.439 --> 01:38:23.760 I find that fascinating, fascinating. It's kind of cognitive dissonance. Is 1289 01:38:24.319 --> 01:38:30.199 it's kind of you know, at the point of there being no more cognitive 1290 01:38:30.279 --> 01:38:34.399 dissonance available, because it's that kind of bewildering to me. But it's great 1291 01:38:34.439 --> 01:38:40.840 when I love calls like that and you know, his ideas about you know, 1292 01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:45.960 the church and how you know people came to have these ideas about the 1293 01:38:45.119 --> 01:38:49.000 church and now it was a tool for understanding the world around them, all 1294 01:38:49.079 --> 01:38:53.640 great stuff. I really enjoyed that call. Yeah, I appreciate just that 1295 01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:56.600 honesty that it felt like was in that call of just like, ah, 1296 01:38:57.359 --> 01:39:00.279 what do we do now? And I think so many us can relate to 1297 01:39:00.479 --> 01:39:04.239 that, and I would assume so many viewers can too, Like people who 1298 01:39:04.319 --> 01:39:08.319 are watching this are probably like I've been through that or maybe going through that, 1299 01:39:09.800 --> 01:39:15.119 and so I always appreciate that. But when someone's honestly looking for the 1300 01:39:15.239 --> 01:39:17.439 truth and is starting to realize that some of this, some of these inputs 1301 01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:21.680 don't make sense with the out what they've been given. Yeah, I thought 1302 01:39:21.720 --> 01:39:27.800 that one was really interesting as well. Yeah, well we are here at 1303 01:39:27.840 --> 01:39:30.439 the end. I do want to mention one thing really quickly. I think 1304 01:39:30.479 --> 01:39:32.800 today was very heavy in a way that I actually really appreciated. But I 1305 01:39:32.880 --> 01:39:40.880 want to point out how much love there was with so many of these discussions. 1306 01:39:40.960 --> 01:39:45.920 That there's a lot of bad shit happening that is discriminatory and awful and 1307 01:39:46.159 --> 01:39:51.560 leading to terrible consequences for people, But we also had collars today being like, 1308 01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:54.279 how do how do I help? How do I deal with that? 1309 01:39:54.399 --> 01:39:58.720 How do I explore this? And I think it's such a gift to be 1310 01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:01.079 able to be part of that common conversation on here. It's a gift to 1311 01:40:01.239 --> 01:40:06.840 have callers who really want to do the best they can for others and who 1312 01:40:06.880 --> 01:40:11.439 are able to see through some of what is being fed to them about you 1313 01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:15.039 know, Hey, this this is what this is what this crusade is really 1314 01:40:15.079 --> 01:40:16.199 about. And they're like, I don't I don't think so. I don't 1315 01:40:16.199 --> 01:40:19.720 think you're just being a jerk. But I see a lot of love there 1316 01:40:19.760 --> 01:40:25.359 and a lot of care, and that gives me a sense of hope and 1317 01:40:26.039 --> 01:40:30.760 gratefulness that I can be part of this conversation as well. Absolutely so. 1318 01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:35.640 On that note, you can join us the aftershow tiny dot c c slash 1319 01:40:36.199 --> 01:40:43.119 ac a c D discord. If you don't believe, we do want you 1320 01:40:43.239 --> 01:40:47.840 to know that this is your community and we appreciate you being here. If 1321 01:40:47.920 --> 01:40:53.119 you do believe, we don't hate you. We're just not convinced. Yeah, 1322 01:41:20.560 --> 01:41:26.119 we want the truth, So watch Truth Wanted live Friday at seven pm 1323 01:41:26.279 --> 01:41:30.640 Central. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t tw and call into the show 1324 01:41:30.800 --> 01:41:38.600 at five one two four two, or connect to the show online at tiny 1325 01:41:38.760 --> 01:41:40.920 dot cc slash call tw