WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:20.839 Episode number three sixty six. Progress is impossible without change, and those 4 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:27.480 who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. George Bernard Shaw broadcasting from a 5 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:31.399 dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next 6 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:36.679 draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of 7 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:41.439 screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, 8 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:47.079 Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. 9 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:51.000 I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is 10 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:57.880 sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof 11 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.759 Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of 12 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:06.719 the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro 13 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:10.439 budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to 14 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:14.200 get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie is 15 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.719 going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on 16 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.719 that. At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, 17 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:26.319 CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, 18 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.719 The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay 19 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:38.200 or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. 20 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.599 Now, Guys, today on the show, we have John Fitzgerald. 21 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.280 Now. John is a very interesting filmmaker because not only is he an award 22 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:51.280 winning filmmaker, he's also the co founder of the Slam Dance Film Festival and 23 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:57.640 the author of the book Filmmaking for Change. Now. This episode was recorded 24 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:04.239 prior to COVID and prior to the protest movement and Black Lives Matter and everything 25 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.520 that's going on in the world. But man, when I went back to 26 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:14.280 listen to it to get it ready for this episode, I could not believe 27 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:21.840 how timely this episode is. So we talk about how to make social change 28 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:28.000 with your filmmaking, and I think it's more important than ever before that you 29 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:34.639 make a change in the world with your art, and this episode and this 30 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:38.680 conversation will help you get on that path. So, without any further ado, 31 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:45.680 please enjoy my conversation with John Fitzgerald. I like to welcome the show 32 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:46.919 John Fitzgerald, Man, thank you so much for being on the show. 33 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:51.280 My friend. Absolutely happy to be here. Thank you man. And like 34 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.439 I'll be saying off air, your book makes a cameo in my film On 35 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:58.560 the Corner of Ego and Desire. When we're in the bookstore, we pan 36 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.520 across it. It's the first book that's in and it's not a quick pan 37 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.919 there's it's a moment you read the title. So I wanted to give you 38 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:08.120 a shout out for the book. I love that. I love that. 39 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:13.000 So before we get started with the reason It's here movie, Yeah, exactly, 40 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:15.360 now, real quick, before we get started, how did you get 41 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:23.520 into the business. I have a film degree from UCSB and broke into the 42 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:30.280 training program at William Morris and back then it was actually Triad, but it 43 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:36.560 was it was acquired, and did the development thing a while, socking away 44 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.879 my per diem working on a script that I'd started in film school and eventually 45 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:46.280 raised the funds to shoot it, and like everyone else, really wanted to 46 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:52.960 premiere it at Sundance, but it wasn't to be, fortunately for me. 47 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.560 I had met a couple other filmmakers at the IFFM in New York that year 48 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:03.159 and they didn't get in either, and so we all banded together and started 49 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:09.719 slam Dance. So I kind of by accident, became a festival director. 50 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.000 We all did it together the first year as co founders, and then I 51 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.279 became the director for year two and three and brought in Peter Baxter was one 52 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:24.959 of the producers of a film in the first year. He came on as 53 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.959 a Crave director, and then I moved on to take over as AFI Fest 54 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.800 director, and then Peter took over slam Dance. So that's the short version 55 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:38.279 of how I got into this indie film space. And Dan has been on 56 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.199 the show. Dan Marvish has been on the show multiple times, and he 57 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.439 also makes a cameo himself, true filmmaker. Oh man, he hustles man 58 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.959 like there's no tomorrow, and he actually makes a cameo in the movie. 59 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:54.920 And his book makes a cameo in the movie as well. So I tried 60 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:59.160 to bring as many people as I could. He's great and he you know, 61 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:00.879 I have to give him a lot of kudos. He's the one that 62 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.800 you know, wrote the first press release that was in Variety, and he 63 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:11.720 was he was a big help and he's a great guy. Now, you 64 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.240 wrote a book called Filmmaking for Change. Now I wanted to ask you what 65 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.839 the book is about and why did you write it. Sure, well, 66 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:26.839 having done film festivals for a number of years again, you know, as 67 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:33.639 a festival director essentially curating movies, I found myself on a panel with Michael 68 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:40.000 Weasy and we're walking back to the hotel and I said, hey, I've 69 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:45.639 become more interested in what I call social impact movies and I'm wondering, you 70 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.639 know, why you guys don't have a book on this subject. What would 71 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:53.639 it take to make that happen? And he said, well, send me 72 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:56.680 an outline in the first chapter and you know, if it makes sense, 73 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:00.000 we'll do it. So that's kind of where it started. And it's true 74 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:06.839 I had become much more interested in documentary and even narrative that you know, 75 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:14.959 we're movies with some social relevance. And so I did that book and really 76 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:17.600 was thinking along the lines with with with some of their other books, that 77 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:25.319 this could be something that was taught in film schools to really help filmmakers learn 78 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:31.519 how to take ideas and make documentary, but not just talking heads documentary, 79 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.160 but how do you how do you take a core of an idea and and 80 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.439 sort of break it down into a narrative structure. And I used some other 81 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:46.439 Michael Weasy books, the Hero's Journey for example, Joseph Campbell's Heroes Journey in 82 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.120 the Twelve Stages. I'm sure you're familiar with that, And so that was 83 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.839 kind of the anchor for the book. And how to have you know, 84 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.399 development and production and then distribution, and how you could take all these pieces 85 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:03.639 and think of these movie these as more narrative stories. And then I made 86 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:09.519 a handful of documentaries along the way that I could kind of reference in the 87 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:15.199 book as examples. Now, documentaries are an easy, an easy play for 88 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.040 social impact. They're kind of, you know, if done correctly, they're 89 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.000 kind of built to do that. Where I find it a little bit more 90 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:27.000 complicated is in the narrative space. Do you have any tips or suggestions and 91 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:32.040 also examples of narrative films that have really hit us, has created social impact 92 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:39.279 besides coming to America. Of course. Well it's funny you say that because 93 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.040 you know, when I was writing the book, obviously I had to do 94 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.839 a lot of research to give it some context. And what you really learn 95 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.279 when you kind of take a deeper dive is that a lot of movies over 96 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.279 the years have been social impact movies. You're just not labeled that way. 97 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.759 And you think you even think about you know, Schindler's List of you know, 98 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:05.079 you think of Green Book. Yeah right. I mean, if you 99 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.160 look at the Oscars the last few years, it's spotlight. You think of 100 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:15.160 a lot of big narratives that actually have something to say, And so I 101 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:20.000 think it's it's not something that audiences are necessarily looking out for consciously, but 102 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:24.480 I think because there's so much wackiness going on in the world, I think 103 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:30.600 that one of the reasons why we're seeing a kind of a spike in documentary 104 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.600 and even social impact narrative is that people are more interested in learning now about 105 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.000 the world around them and different cultures and getting to the crux of some of 106 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.879 these big issues. Now, how do you dance though the line between preaching 107 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.120 and entertaining, because if you start preaching, people tune off. Even in 108 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.840 documentaries to a certain extent, I'm a huge fan of documentary, and you 109 00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:00.320 know, the whole plant based food movement was started with documentary basically with four 110 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.879 Knives. Yeah, I'm sorry, Work's over Knives is in my book as 111 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.000 a case study. Yeah, fork overen knives, food matters, all those 112 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:15.000 kind of what the health and conspiracy and all these other ones. So they're 113 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.679 very powerful. And even back in the day with Roger and me, uh 114 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:24.039 with with Michael Moore and his social impacts with his documentaries. Yeah, but 115 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.600 how do you dance the line between preaching and entertaining. I honestly think it's 116 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.879 it's it's a combination of different factors that don't necessarily apply into each project. 117 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.320 I think each kind of has their own, their own anchor. Obviously, 118 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.759 with More you've got you've got a charismatic figure who you you kind of want 119 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:48.919 to watch because he's so crazy. We'll be right back after a word from 120 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:58.440 our sponsor and now back to the show. But there, there's there's other 121 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.159 there's other documentaries where the filmmaking style is really interesting. You know, you 122 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:09.960 think about life itself. Right, the documentary made a few years ago and 123 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.639 they used animation and this this this you know, this guy had had grown 124 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:22.440 up with with you know, a disorder essentially and and connected it back to 125 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:26.639 Disney movies and and so I think it's really a question of what your style 126 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:31.720 and your structure is and and if you can somehow weave in a narrative ooh, 127 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:35.399 I mean there there is a reason why, you know, there's a 128 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.440 beginning, a middle, and an end to most of the bigger, more 129 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.279 popular stories, whether it's whether it's a book or a movie. So so 130 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.879 I think that's the key, and I think, you know, filmmakers are 131 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.039 getting it. And and that's why if you look back, and to some 132 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:54.200 extent we could thank Netflix, they've they've really you know, busted open the 133 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.639 doors for documentary in the last few years, I think, with such a 134 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:05.480 deep library and of course HBO, so they're out there and there's a reason 135 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.759 why people are paying attention now. And I think it's because these stories are 136 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:16.000 told in such an interesting way. The one thing I found interesting about your 137 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.559 book and what you're trying to say with it is that it does really fall 138 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:26.399 into the concept that I've kind of been preaching about profusely over the last six 139 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.039 months or longer. Is this whole concept of being a film entrepreneur being an 140 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:37.559 entrepreneurial filmmaker and finding a niche and then feeding that niche, providing service to 141 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:43.600 that niche. Impact social impact movies are literally that. I mean, unless 142 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:48.759 it's a very broad like you know, racism or the Holocaust or even that, 143 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:54.200 those are still niches of the larger society. They're kind of pre built 144 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.399 for that. Do you have any tips on how because I know, when 145 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.320 you're making a social impact film, money might not be a specific goal, 146 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.600 but if you're raising money for a cause, for a foundation, then generating 147 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:11.440 revenue is as important as if it was going into your own pocket, even 148 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.559 more so then at that point. So still revenue generation is still extremely important 149 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:22.600 for filmmakers, even doing social impact movies. So do you have any recommendations 150 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.960 in regards to what you've seen over the years. Yeah, it's a great 151 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.320 point, and I love the idea of your book, By the way, 152 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.080 and I've consulted for a number of years helping filmmakers kind of figure out their 153 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:37.120 marketing and distribution strategy. And one of the things that I've been saying a 154 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:41.080 lot in the last few years is you really have to think of your movie 155 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.639 as a brand, and you have to think about it as a product and 156 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:50.039 not just find a distributor, stick it on that shelf and you see how 157 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.279 many people might find it. You do have to do all the things that 158 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.519 I'm sure you cover in your book in terms of social impact. What's interesting 159 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:05.919 is you need to have a call to action. And when I talked to 160 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:11.279 filmmakers about this, it kind of all starts with the goal and then you 161 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.440 back into the process from there, and each film kind of has its own 162 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.000 goal, right because a film about homelessness is not necessarily going to have the 163 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:26.720 same goal as a film about the environment. You look at a movie like 164 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.799 Racing Extinction. You know, they created an amazing campaign and I don't know 165 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.519 if you had a chance to check it out, but the new book, 166 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:41.919 the second edition, has a whole new section which is called activation to your 167 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.919 point, which is, you know, how can you take this idea that 168 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.840 was built with a mission in mind and put it in motion? And I 169 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:54.639 think what Racing Extinction did which was brilliant, is that they took this concept 170 00:13:54.919 --> 00:14:01.399 of climate change and you know, they put different challenges in there. We 171 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:07.759 call to actions. Did you know that animal agricultures responsible for fourteen zero point 172 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.279 five percent of global emissions, I mean, and then they talk about the 173 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:13.720 fisheries. Did you know that ninety percent of the fisheries are over fished. 174 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:20.320 So they talk about these issues and then they follow up with questions and solutions 175 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.360 and what you can do as a person to make your contribution. And I 176 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:28.200 think part of the problem is that people get overwhelmed with the idea that oh 177 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.759 my god, there's so many problems. How can little o me make a 178 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:35.320 difference, you know, And I think it does have to start with us, 179 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.399 and we have to just know that every little bit counts. Yeah, 180 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.879 there's I'm thinking of a movie camps like Boys Don't Cry, which obviously touched 181 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:48.399 upon at the time. Really you know that, you know, LGBQ rights, 182 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.200 which was something that was not even discussed when that movie came out. 183 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.960 Really it was kind of like one of those films, and it could have 184 00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:00.240 been at the end like hey, if you know, somebody put on go 185 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.799 to this website, sign up and get help or whatever that might be, 186 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.720 or you know, get assistance or whatever. There is there's always an ability, 187 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.000 and I think the filmmaker just really needs to be very clear about what 188 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:16.039 their endgame is. I've even seen big movies who that touch like I mean 189 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:22.600 obviously Schindler's List, you know, with the social or social project that that 190 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.519 he that Spielberg created, which was, you know, to record every Holocaust 191 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:31.159 survivor in an art chive, you know, and he used Shindler's List as 192 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.559 a catalyst for that as an educational tool. I think that you're right that 193 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:41.000 filmmakers really need to be very clear about what their endgame is. Uh. 194 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:46.080 And also I was going to ask you how can filmmakers, depending on the 195 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.399 social impact they're trying to make and the niche that they're trying to do, 196 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:56.320 how could they or should they team up with organizations in that niche to get 197 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.399 the word out in ways that you can't. And also as a basically free 198 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:04.600 marketing, because if you're making a film about the environment, let's say, 199 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.720 or specific something even more niche than that, and there's an organization about that, 200 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.200 they have on thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people 201 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.720 on an email list, and they can market your film for free. Essentially. 202 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.679 Do you agree with that? Absolutely? You just hit it right on 203 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:25.840 the head. I mean, with virtually all of these what I call cause 204 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.600 cinema movies. You know, these are projects that have not for profits. 205 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:36.519 Depending on the category, whether it's the oceans, or homelessness or education, 206 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:41.559 veterans, you name it, all of them have organizations to support this effort. 207 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:48.759 And it is in a way almost a sponsorship or a partnership agreement that 208 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:56.080 is developed between filmmaking team and and you know company. Really it's going to 209 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:00.200 them and saying, look, I've got this content and it supports you your 210 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.399 mission. How can we help each other? How can you get our message 211 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:08.480 out to your audience base. Maybe it's giving you some content for your website 212 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:14.400 depending on what their forum is. But it really does come down to understanding 213 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.880 after you get past, you know, underneath the layer of the goal, 214 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.720 it's what your what's your distribution plan? Are you? Are you interested in 215 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:29.640 playing on Netflix or HBO? And what if they don't want you? You 216 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.680 know, are you are you going to play in schools? Are you going 217 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.680 to play in high schools? Are you going to play in colleges? What 218 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.799 is your what is your action campaign that supports the screening? Are you going 219 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.799 to have bumper stickers? Are you going to have T shirts? What is 220 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.240 your call to action? And I think once you back into what your distribution 221 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.119 model is. I did a movie a few years ago called The Milky Way, 222 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:57.720 and it's about breastfeeding in America, nice and kind of restoring the nursing 223 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:04.000 phenomena in it. It will blow your mind just how bad America is at 224 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:08.640 this. This really kids, I trust me, you know I did so. 225 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.000 I was psychotic than my kids were in my wife's belly. I was 226 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.359 just like, I did so much research. I watched so many documentaries. 227 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.680 It was like, maybe you're breastfeeding and she's like, I know, and 228 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.759 don't tell me what to do. What's crazy, though, is that a 229 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.160 lot of people just assume that, you know, for me, it's about 230 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.400 the nutrition factor or whatever, but they don't. They don't realize it's the 231 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.799 skin to skin and anyway I know about I know more about that now than 232 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.680 my wife did when she was breast But the point is is that these filmmakers 233 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.240 weren't making it to make money. They yes, they were on Netflix, 234 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.599 yes they got the exposure, but it was more about how do we do 235 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:52.039 a screening campaign that will give mothers an opportunity to see this movie and who 236 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.319 are the right partners to do that so with that particular film, speaking of 237 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:02.720 Tug, Unfortunately, we did a campaign with Tug, and frankly, these 238 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.880 filmmakers did not set the bar super high in terms of how many people had 239 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:08.680 to see the movie to trigger to the screening. They were thinking, look, 240 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.640 if they're fifteen to twenty moms in that theater, we're good that we 241 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:18.559 help, we're in So they didn't do it for money, and it's it's 242 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.079 a wonderful thing to see when you see the emails plotting into babies. They're 243 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:29.240 both they're both essentially nurses. To see the impact they're having, and that 244 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.960 is a perfect example of a social impact film that we created. With the 245 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.119 beginning, middle, and end. It has a story, there's the good 246 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.000 guys and the bad guys. There's some animation, and it's an interesting it's 247 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.319 an interesting story, but it does make a difference. And they knew that 248 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.640 it wasn't about how much money they were going to make. It was about 249 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.640 connecting to these groups. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 250 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:03.440 and now back to the show and having their Facebook and their Instagram and 251 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.559 all these social media platforms and websites in that nursing category. That could do 252 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:17.640 outreach for them because because audiences want to know about this subject. So let's 253 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.079 since you've touched upon it, I want to talk a little bit about distribution, 254 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:26.680 and that is it's a dirty word, uh in many ways and has 255 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.079 become a dirty we at the end of the day, it's always wow, 256 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.799 it's it's and people think it's, oh no, everything's so much you know, 257 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.000 easier, or it's more controlled. They're rules. There's absolutely no rules. 258 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:45.240 It's worse than ever. And I've literally I actually had conversations uh today 259 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.640 actually with filmmakers who are going through this whole Tug situation. If if and 260 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.400 if anyone listening has not listened to episode three seventy three, where I, 261 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.880 you know, break the story in regards to what happened with TUG and what 262 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:06.160 TUG was and everything, but that that there was documentaries who had educational series 263 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.440 and educational content that was licensed by TUG, and now they're they're going to 264 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.680 lose eight to ten grand and they're like, that's you know, plus all 265 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.799 the all the exposure for the cause and everything. It's brutal out there. 266 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:23.039 So it's brutal out there for filmmakers as a general statement. But it's even 267 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:27.079 I think it's even a little bit more heartbreaking when you're when you're doing this 268 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:32.240 for almost a nonprofit and there are nonprofit filmmakers out there that just want the 269 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:36.079 cause to get out there, and they still get screwed and in the in 270 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.319 the films get screwed. I mean, you're you're in that, You're in 271 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.400 this space. You're definitely in the space of distribution as well. So I'd 272 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:47.359 love to hear your thoughts and ideas about what can be done, what you 273 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.119 look out for. Uh. And we touched a little bit about the entrepreneurial 274 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.640 filmmaking model, which I do believe is the future or a hybrid version of 275 00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:00.119 that. But what's your what's your take on it? Well, I I 276 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.359 I think I tend to try and look at things like a little bit more 277 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:08.279 of the silver lining side. I do think that it is it is really 278 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:14.319 disturbing when you hear about to Stripper and Tug and these these these companies that 279 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.240 were doing so well for filmmakers that you know, shut down. I will 280 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:25.559 also say though, that that by having so many new streaming channels and frankly 281 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:34.839 channels that that aren't necessarily curating there isn't as difficult of a barrier as there 282 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:38.960 as there was some time ago. I mean, clearly, if you don't 283 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.640 have a relationship with iTunes, you don't have a relationship with Netflix or HBO, 284 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.519 it's going to be hard for you to get get traction there. So 285 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.079 I do think it's a challenge. I think to your earlier point, I 286 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.480 do think filmmakers have to be entrepreneurial now now more than they used to be. 287 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.680 It wasn't just I'm a visionary and I'm going to create an idea and 288 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.799 then give it to a al's agent who's going to rip me off and try 289 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.440 and sell it. You have to be able to get creative on your own. 290 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.359 But I do think there are a lot of opportunities out there. You 291 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.119 still have to do your homework, You have to know who the right players 292 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:17.359 are, and you still, I believe you know, some of these content 293 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.119 careers are creating channels for themselves, right. Roku has over two thousand channels 294 00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:25.279 now, right, and there's going to be some consolidation, of course, 295 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:26.799 But there's a lot of opportunity out there. You just got to do your 296 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:30.759 homework. Yeah, I mean, I even have my own streaming service, 297 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.000 you know, so that's dedicated to filmmakers. So I mean a lot of 298 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.319 people have streaming services, and you know, I think the future is curation. 299 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:42.319 I mean, you can't like, I agree, I just I can't 300 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:48.119 compete with Netflix. Not many people can. Amazon can't compete with Netflix, 301 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.799 so let alone me. So there, the broad spectrum channels I think will 302 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.039 start to just die off because they won't be able to be sustained. Their 303 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.839 funding will finally crap out and they'll and they'll close. And I've seen that 304 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:07.039 already happening. But I feel that the niche, the niche or curated channels 305 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:10.880 are going to be able to survive because people will want you know, if 306 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.680 you're into documentaries, curiosity stream is a pretty good deal. I just I 307 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.200 just signed up for twelve bucks for the year. I'm like, okay, 308 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.160 it was a quick like end of the year of a Black Friday sale. 309 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.079 I was like, yeah, sure, I might, yea, why not? 310 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.000 You know, so that makes sense, And I think you're right. 311 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.519 There's just so much more homework that filmaking. There's a lot out there. 312 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.400 There's a lot out there, and I do agree there's gonna be some consolidation 313 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.640 for sure that there won't be two thousand channels in five years. But the 314 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:48.160 point is, do your homework and see which of these channels have your niche, 315 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.359 you know. And I do think that there is something to be said 316 00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:56.240 for curation, especially if you're focusing on a specific category. I think, 317 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.880 you know, throwing as many ideas against the wall and just hoping a channel 318 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:07.440 that has seventeen genres is going to promote your title, that's that's a bit 319 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.920 more of a challenge. But I do think especially for docs and some very 320 00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:18.119 specific like sci fi very hot, right, So I think if you if 321 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.079 you, if you're in a certain category and you do your homework and you 322 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.000 can find a home, you have a chance to succeed there. And if 323 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:30.279 and and I still think having a website and having fans and creating community as 324 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.640 you know, I mean, those are those are the audiences that would come 325 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.519 and see your next movie. So I still think you don't want to just 326 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:38.960 give it up and wait for the checks to roll in. You gotta you 327 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.240 gotta, you gotta keep hustling. Yeah, when you're preaching to the choir 328 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:48.960 on that one. But but I see it too that the distributors you know 329 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.039 when I was at AFM this year, Uh, they're they're scared. They 330 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.319 don't know what to do. I mean, all their golden calves are gone, 331 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.640 so they I asked, I literally asked a distribution company who was in 332 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.880 a meeting with me. I go, you guys really have no idea how 333 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.400 you're gonna make money this year? Are you the Like, We're just gonna 334 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.519 throw up things as many things up against the wall as we can and see 335 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.519 what sticks and things are. And the wall is moving and the things you're 336 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.279 throwing up against the wall are moving. So it's a constant game of musical 337 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.720 chairs, and nobody really knows what's going on. So that's kind of why 338 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.920 I always again talking about entrepreneurial is the exploitation of the movie is one revenue 339 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.920 stream, while you should be creating multiple other revenue streams from other products and 340 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.759 or services like food, like I mean, fork over knives. I mean 341 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.519 those guys. I have them in my books as a case study as well, 342 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.359 because they were really food matters, fat, sick, and nearly dead. 343 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.720 Even even Kung Fury, Kung Fury, that little short film. I 344 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:52.559 remember that that guy, he you know, the niche of eighties action movies. 345 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.480 I wouldn't say that's a social impact film, but depending how you look 346 00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:02.720 at it. Okay, I worked on a really bad Stephen Sigau movie. 347 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.599 You mean so pretty much almost all of them except for the first maybe three 348 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.680 or four. Yeah, well, on Deadly Ground, I have to say 349 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.480 I like it. Oh wait, on denund is that the one is that 350 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:19.000 the oil one? No, Actually, on Deadly Ground is the one that 351 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:22.680 I worked on. Okay, horrible, it's a horrible movie. It's the 352 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.480 one with Michael Kaine right under Siege I think was the first one right that 353 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:32.880 he was actually decent at. So arguably this is my time of life. 354 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.599 So I worked in a video store during this time. So this is there's 355 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:41.559 a like I've said before on the show, there's a window of time that 356 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.279 I will challenge anybody to a trivial situation. So from from eighty seven to 357 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:51.000 ninety three, I pretty much watched everything that was put out. So during 358 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:55.200 that time there was above the law, hard to kill, mark for death, 359 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:59.319 out for justice, and then under Siege showed up. I would argunder 360 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.319 Siege in the middle Pack. Yeah, so under Siege, I would argue 361 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.039 is probably his best and was his biggest hit, and it was a Warner 362 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:10.119 Brothers release, Above the Law not bad. I have a small a good 363 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.079 place for me in a Heart to Kill, But I didn remember he did 364 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.519 on Deadly Ground if that's if I'm not mistaken, that's the oil one in 365 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:22.440 Alaska with Michael Caine, and he directed to see McGinley, Billy Thornton. 366 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.680 It was. It was an awesome cast, but he directed, he directed 367 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559 it. He was so drunk on his own power. I could only imagine 368 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.720 what that was like, but he was. But it was a social podcast 369 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:40.039 of what not to do in studio production that that movie would check all the 370 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:41.720 box. But that was but that was a movie, if I remember correctly, 371 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.839 that was a social impact movie. He was trying to say something about 372 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:53.480 American m was American, Indian and oil and Theano Alaska. It was Alaska, 373 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.119 so it was so it was like the Natives of Alaska and all this. 374 00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.480 So it really was a bit preachy, if I remember correct. It 375 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:06.440 was like a bit preaching. It was bad. It was just bad cinema. 376 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.279 It started to it started to take good about it was it. It 377 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.039 puts the money in the pocket that I could get closer to making my independent 378 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.920 film. That was the kind of help me get the slammed in. That's 379 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.440 the that's the way to look at it, an absolutely wonderful way to look 380 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:26.519 at it. My friend, I have to say, now, do you 381 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:32.799 have any tips for finding funding for these social impact films? Because when you're 382 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:38.319 doing a social impact film, funding opportunities are more relative than the action movie 383 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:42.960 starring Eric Roberts and Michael Madson. So you have places you could go to 384 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.160 get that. Do you have any tips for that for your listeners. We'll 385 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:55.039 be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the 386 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.880 show. Well, you know, I I do. I do cover that 387 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.000 a little bit in the book, and I and I have a list of 388 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:04.079 of of organizations and it really just depends kind of on how much you're looking 389 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:10.279 for. There's probably half a dozen or so, and I know seeden Spark 390 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.720 has has a lot of information about that fledgling. You can you can go 391 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:25.079 to the doc the I d A website see a really long list of organizations 392 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:30.839 that support docs, a lot of grants. What what's also interesting is that 393 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:37.480 is the crowdfunding campaign has kind of shifted to equity crowdfunding and and so now 394 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.279 you can get a you can get a piece of the movie instead of just 395 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.759 you know, a T shirt. So so I do think there are a 396 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.880 lot of opportunities and and and as as we both know, you can you 397 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.359 can make these movies for next to nothing. So just a question of how 398 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:56.799 creative, how creative you can be. But the other thing I'll just add 399 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:02.599 is there are companies like Creative Visions right that that really support as a fiscal 400 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.079 partner and with a lot of tools and outreach and a lot of examples, 401 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:12.160 and they have talks and they bring filmmakers in and they really support this social 402 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:18.480 impact space with a lot of information and resources that are hard to find in 403 00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:23.079 one in one shop. So that's another organization to know about. And I 404 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:30.359 think moving forward, there has been definitely an uptick in social impact cinema over 405 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.839 the last twenty years. I mean just from the moment where I was talking 406 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.559 that little magical moment when I worked at a video store that you know from 407 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.920 there, I don't remember seeing many. You know, it was the eighties, 408 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.720 so it was a little different, but there wasn't a lot of social 409 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.680 impact films. But they have becoming more and more and more and more, 410 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:53.400 God, I can't believe inconvenient inconvenient truth. Yeah, that launched an entire 411 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.960 conversation. I talked about that a lot in my book. Oh that's it, 412 00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.440 That's what triggered me. It was such a great It was such a 413 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:06.079 great It's such a powerful use of the medium. I mean what they were 414 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.599 able to do. And I actually taught trailer editing in colleges and classes, 415 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:15.079 and I bring out the Inconvenient Truth trailer. That trailer was so well edited 416 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:22.920 and it was so powerful, and it's Al Gore in doing a slight show, 417 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:28.640 the slide show like they made the movie they made Al Gore kind of 418 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.559 cool. It was kind of weird watching that. And then you watch a 419 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:38.400 movie like Supersize Me, which completely started a conversation, a global conversation about 420 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:44.680 obesity and about food and about so much so that the multi billion dollar company 421 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:52.039 stopped supersizing it was. That's amazing. It was amazing. So these films 422 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:58.720 do do hit and the in the just hyper sensitive times that we live and 423 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:05.079 where any little thing offends. The corporations are so sensitive to this. So 424 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.839 if can you imagine if Supersized Me showed up today? Oh my Oh my, 425 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:13.319 could you imagine because that was like pre was that pre that wasn't pre 426 00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:16.319 internet, but it was like early it was really when did that come out? 427 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:20.039 Like that was the nineties? It was, Yeah, it's more than 428 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.839 it was more than ten years ago. No, it's it's definitely the nineties, 429 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.240 if I'm not mistaken. But late nineties when when that came out? 430 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.720 So late nineties or early two thousands, but it was like pre Facebook, 431 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.799 free, pre insane social media. I know you're looking it up. Go 432 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:37.200 ahead, go look it up because it's going to try and find it while 433 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:42.519 you're talking. But yeah, but so the I think that there is an 434 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:45.680 uptick, and I think it's a very powerful way for a filmmaker to make 435 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:52.039 a difference in the world and also, uh, change minds and and help 436 00:33:52.359 --> 00:34:00.279 people with with this because we have were working arguably the most powerful media in 437 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.960 the world as far as cinema television content, like the video content. You 438 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:08.719 know, you can watch a movie and your life changes, like you make 439 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:13.960 a difference, you know. Yeah, and and it yeah, so two 440 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.159 thousand and four, by the way, okay, good, and I wasn't 441 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:22.320 too far off, not too far. But the thing is these movies are 442 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:27.760 are are movies that you you start a dialogue with somebody that may not know 443 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.639 anything about it. Right. You see something, it's like hearing a new 444 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:32.159 song. You want to tell your friend about that new song. You see 445 00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:37.119 one of these movies and it strikes you somehow, it makes you want to 446 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.559 talk about it and share the information. And one of the things that I 447 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:45.400 think is the next wave. I started this a bit with Cause Cinema, 448 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:50.280 and then I got sidetracked with these other ideas, but is I believe there 449 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:57.400 needs to be a more concentrated approach at connecting the cause to the movie and 450 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.880 so that if you see the movie, when you finish the movie, you're 451 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:06.039 actually on a landing page that tells you more about the causes if you want 452 00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:09.320 to get involved or make a donation or read more about it. That's something 453 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.960 that hasn't really happened yet. And I think, you know, Participant Media 454 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.840 was was the was the likely candidate to assume that role, and they did 455 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:23.400 a lot with their digital and then they shut it down. So somebody needs 456 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:29.000 to do that, and in a big way, because what you don't want 457 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.079 to do is see one of these movies that can really make a difference and 458 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:37.199 then kind of go out to dinner and forget about it. Right, you 459 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.239 want to be able to make a difference and and and that's why calls to 460 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:43.920 action are so important. Yeah. I just saw the film Game Changers, 461 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:49.400 which was I just read that was the biggest documentary in iTunes history within two 462 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:55.760 weeks, which about vegan athletes. And I've had so many people publicly now 463 00:35:55.880 --> 00:36:00.880 come out, like Dolph Lungren and Iron Rob, Donny Junior and all these 464 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:04.840 people that watched the documentary. They're just like, yeah, I'm changing. 465 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.400 I'm not trying to preach your guys, eat your meat. It's up to 466 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:12.519 you. But I'm just I'm just using it as an example of a film 467 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:17.119 that's had immense impact. I mean, I haven't seen impact in that space 468 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:23.000 as much probably since either What the Health or fork Over n Over Knives they 469 00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.480 were the first. Wasn't Fork over Knives the first Forks over Knives? Well, 470 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.960 I think Food Matters might have come around first, but I think Forks 471 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.360 over Knives is the one that really busted it open. And they were smart 472 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.280 talking about your film entrepreneurs. You know, they had they had a companion 473 00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:40.679 piece, they had a magazine, they had a website. I mean, 474 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.440 they've created a whole franchise around this. But but I think I think that 475 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:51.280 you know Louis who also did the cove right Yes, and Racing Extinctions, 476 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.280 So he knows what he's doing. He's got an oscar and he knows how 477 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.960 to make a difference. And I think with with that movie came out of 478 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.920 Sundance last year, right, I didn't see it. Their Team Changers, 479 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:06.159 So yeah, it's going to have an impact for sure. And and more 480 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.800 importantly, back to your other comment about distribution, it doesn't really help if 481 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:15.239 you have a message and nobody sees it. Right, you got to you 482 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.719 got to find your audience and and not everybody's going to have the luck of 483 00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:23.639 an acquisition out of sun Dance and and an iTunes yeah iTunes deal, and 484 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.599 also having James Cameron, ar Schwarzenegger and Jackie chann as your executive producers. 485 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:34.280 Like that doesn't hurt, doesn't didn't hurt in the least. Uh De Man, 486 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:36.360 I want to I wanted to thank you again for being on the show. 487 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:37.199 I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my 488 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:42.519 guests what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today, 489 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.519 I think I think mentorship is key. Uh, find people that are 490 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:53.920 doing what you want to be doing and reach out to them because most of 491 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.320 them are willing to help. And and if you know what genre you want 492 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.000 to be in, try and find somebody that's making projects in that genre. 493 00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:07.360 I think one of the other one of the other challenges is some people think 494 00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:12.440 they want to make movies, but it turns out they don't want to make 495 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.480 movies. You just want to be connected to the movie business. So I 496 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.400 think, you know, part of the challenge is to figure out which part 497 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:21.519 of the iss you want to be in, right and and then figure out 498 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.000 who can mentor you and give you advice on on on the best path to 499 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.800 reach that goal. So, so you need to tell me there's people in 500 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.320 the business who just want to be famous and don't really care about the work. 501 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:34.199 Stop at john Stop. Yeah, Next, you're going to tell me 502 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.320 distributors are you know a lot of distributors are predatory? Like what do you 503 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.039 what are you even saying? What is? It's up as down down as 504 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.599 up? Cats and dogs living together masssterio That the key is get into a 505 00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.599 training program and and be willing to do internships because a lot of those internships 506 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:52.119 lead to full time gigs. Yeah, and if not, it starts a 507 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.480 sponge, and if not, you start building that rhinoceros skin that you need 508 00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.000 that you need to build up in this business. Without question, that's right 509 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:02.159 now. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether 510 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.079 in the film business or in life. I think the lesson that I learned 511 00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.639 over time in the film business was I kind of believe that if you did 512 00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:15.760 something and you did it really, really well, that you you'd be able 513 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.039 to make a lot of money. I love that. That's awesome. And 514 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.480 then I realized, Okay, if I want to be a really good curator 515 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.639 and a really good fescil director, or I want to teach film classes, 516 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:39.960 or I want to write books, unfortunately most of those don't generally pay. 517 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:46.320 Making documentaries is not going to make you rich. We'll be right back after 518 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:54.679 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I'm not 519 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.760 saying I got in this to get rich. I'm just saying I think I 520 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:00.880 kept saying I'm not going to think about the finance picture and what I have 521 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.599 to do to get my kids through school. Sure, I'm gonna work really 522 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.840 hard, and so I think the lesson was, you know what, you 523 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:08.280 got to go the other way. You got to you gotta love what you 524 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:13.320 do. And fortunately for me, I've loved every minute of this journey. 525 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.960 I've I've got to make movies, I've got to meet and discover tons of 526 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:22.000 filmmakers. I love what I do. But but you the lesson I learned 527 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:27.599 was you can't think about where the money is going to come from and think 528 00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.119 that just if I do this really well and I work really hard and I'm 529 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:31.599 good at that, the money will come. Because the truth is some of 530 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:37.239 these some of these categories in the film space don't pay as well as you 531 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.519 know, producing a movie for twenty century Fox, and even those films sometimes 532 00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:45.239 or Disney or exactly, there is no more twenty century Fox or come on, 533 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:49.360 come On, It's gone now. And three of your favorite films of 534 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:55.440 all time, I have to say Citizen Kane. I saw it in film 535 00:40:55.480 --> 00:41:00.800 school, and you know that's kind of an easy answer is Beautiful, which 536 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:06.000 I had the pleasure of showing with Benini and everyone there at the Chinese when 537 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.599 I was Running a Fi. I love that movie and uh gosh, my 538 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.920 third one, I think one of the most impactful movies for me kind of 539 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:23.280 coming out of film school. Sexualizing videotape. Yeah, Soderbergh's first film, 540 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.119 and actually What puts on Dance on the Map. Yeah, very influential, 541 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.159 well, he is in general. Those are three Those are three three big 542 00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:36.679 ones. Yes, even as in general very influential. What he does and 543 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.880 what he's doing now with iPhones is pretty insane. So I'm glad there's someone 544 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.880 like him out there doing what he's doing, and for that and for that 545 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.880 sake, and and for and and also I'm glad that you're out there doing 546 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:53.119 what you're doing and fighting the good fight and helping filmmakers find not only you 547 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:58.719 know, meaning sometimes and using this medium to actually help other people, which 548 00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:02.719 is very important, but also helping them find their path in this business and 549 00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:06.559 in life. And if you once you get a taste of this, uh, 550 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:09.519 of doing something social and something that helps other people, it's fairly addictive, 551 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:14.320 uh and very rewarding. Yeah. Yeah, it might. You might 552 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:19.559 not live in the Hollywood Hills, but you're happy. You're happier I feel, 553 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:21.599 but you know, you ever like you live in the Hollywood Hills and 554 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:24.880 have social impact. I mean, look, Arnold did it. Yeah yeah. 555 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:30.800 One of the taglines I use for for Cause Cinema was see good, 556 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.199 do good, feel good. I think that kind of sums it up right. 557 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.840 You get to see good social impact movies. You want to do good 558 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.599 right with the call to action, and you'll feel good for doing so. 559 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.519 That's that's an amazing thank Thanks for having me, man, It's it's an 560 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.880 honor to be here. I've been I've been listening to your show and a 561 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.679 huge fan. I appreciate that. But thanks so much. And real quick, 562 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.440 where can people find you in your in your work? Uh? Cause 563 00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:01.119 pictures dot com is is kind of my my anchor organization. And then for 564 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:07.119 the book Filmmaking for Change obviously, thank you so much, brother. I 565 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:09.159 appreciate you coming on the show and keep fighting the good fight, my friend. 566 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:15.519 Thank you you too. I want to thank John so much for being 567 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:21.880 on the show and being an inspiration to the tribe on how to use your 568 00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:25.760 filmmaking to change the world, to change society. And again, guys, 569 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:30.320 you know you don't have to put all the pressure of the world and the 570 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:35.400 world's problems on your art and on your films and on your writing. But 571 00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:39.280 as you can make a slight change, use a theme, use something that 572 00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:46.199 can change somebody's mind to really help the world as a whole. It is 573 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:52.079 I think, really really important that you use this very powerful medium that we 574 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:58.480 call filmmaking to make a change in the world in any small way we can. 575 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:00.760 Now. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in 576 00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:04.639 this episode, including links to his book Filmmaking for Change, head over to 577 00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:08.000 the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three sixty six. 578 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:12.199 Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing 579 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.559 no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the 580 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:20.000 Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.