WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:12.919 Hello, Look, I read this episode of Superhero Ethics today. We're discussing 2 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:18.160 the topic of what does it mean to learn from failure? And we're using 3 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:21.800 that particularly through the lens of the movie The Last Jedi. But we're gonna 4 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.519 be talking about this topic in all of Star Wars as well as you know, 5 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.399 all of media and in our own lives. And we think it's a 6 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.800 really interesting element of that particular movie, one that Ricky and I are both 7 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:34.359 big fans of, and so we want to use it for that regard. 8 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:37.679 I do want to say as a note here, because I know this movie 9 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:41.840 is particularly controversial, this is not a time to review The Last Jedi. 10 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:45.240 Rieky and I are fans of it, are going to talk about what we 11 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:48.200 enjoy about it. I know a lot of people aren't fans about it. 12 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:53.640 That's totally fine. Please. I think it's totally fine of any opinting on 13 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:56.719 this movie. I think a lot of people say it. At any time 14 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.759 that someone mentions The Last Jedi or anything about it, it's a time to 15 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:03.679 bring mac all the arguments everyone's heard of before about why it's too woke, 16 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.040 or it's do this or do that, or any of that. Stuff, 17 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:10.040 please take out somewhere else. So we want to a discussion about the specific 18 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:12.799 question of learning from failure. As I said, I'm here with my guest 19 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.159 Ricky, and Ricky, I know this is one of your favorite movies as 20 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:21.079 well. What does this idea of learning from failure mean to you? Not 21 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.680 even in the movie itself, but just in general. Well, I was 22 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:26.719 going to start out and just say, I'll give you my review. It's 23 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:33.599 my favorite Star Wars movie. That's fair. That's fair, And I wanted 24 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:37.840 to start here like I just want to quote Yoda. This is the scene 25 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.560 where ghost Yoda comes to Luke. He says, he did my words, 26 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:49.200 not did you all right? Pass on what you have learned? Rank mastery 27 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:57.280 mm hm, but weakness, folly, failure, also, yes, failure 28 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:02.079 most of all the greatest teacher fail is And then like there's a cut, 29 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.040 and later on he says, we are what they grow beyond. That is 30 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.199 the true burden of all masters, right, And that's the basis of our 31 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:16.479 discussion here. And it's a it's such a Yoda thing. And to me, 32 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:25.159 like Yoda is the walking embodiment of an airport book that condenses like this, 33 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:31.400 this life philosophy and advice into one phrase like a title phrase, and 34 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:38.400 it's it can be useful if you apply it properly, but if you examine 35 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:42.000 it from a broad perspective, it it doesn't work. Like a lot of 36 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.960 these things, like you have to internalize the message and then find out what 37 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:51.319 it means for yourself. So I do think like there are nuggets of great 38 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.360 wisdom in this, like in some airport books, but you have to be 39 00:02:54.439 --> 00:03:00.479 careful about how you apply that to your life. Yeah, I think it's 40 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:07.479 very true. Failure like being the greatest teacher. Failure sucks, yeah, 41 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:13.879 and it can lead you down a spiral of I mean, frankly like depression, 42 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.879 Like if you keep failing at things, that's that's not like that's not 43 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:23.400 a good teacher, as you always say. Well, I think that's really 44 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.159 essential to this idea. And I actually appreciate I use that phrase learning from 45 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.240 failure, but but I appreciate the way you're specifying it is that failure the 46 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:37.759 greatest teacher is because you can have the best teacher in the world and if 47 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:40.240 you don't listen, you're not going to learn anything. And to me, 48 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:46.479 I think that's one of the keys is you can learn from failure, but 49 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.840 you have to that isn't just going to hit you over the head. You 50 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:53.800 have to be willing to first of all, acknowledge your failures and look at 51 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.560 your failures. And you have to be willing to be critical and not just 52 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:00.159 say, oh, this is someone else's fault or if this had happened that 53 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.240 I wouldn't have failed, but be willing to say, what did I do 54 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.840 wrong? How did I fail? And what can I learn from this so 55 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.240 that I don't do this again? Because you're right, when you're just stuck 56 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:14.039 in that cycle of failure, it feels terrible for you. Often you can 57 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.519 wind up hurting others. Like that's not a good thing. Yeah, I 58 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:20.240 mean, if we're talking about you know, like a context of a job 59 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:27.079 performance, if you keep failing, like you might be learning stuff, but 60 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.279 you also might get fired because you're just not doing your job correctly. Right, 61 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:39.199 So there there's a I mean, to use another catchy phrase, like 62 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:42.360 in the context of a job, they say, if you're good at your 63 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.240 job, you keep getting promoted until you're bad at your job. Right, 64 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:49.279 So that's like the point of failure. Ideally, like maybe you stop just 65 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:54.560 before that because you recognize like you kind of reached a good balance point, 66 00:04:55.480 --> 00:05:01.600 but like you can't like success is also success is also a good teacher to 67 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:09.240 some degree. So I do find it interesting because in that moment in this 68 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:15.800 movie, Luke has expressed like he failed because Ray has just left where he 69 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:20.480 like fails as a teacher, and he is recalling how he failed with Ben 70 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:26.720 Skywalker or Ben Solo Kylo Renn, right, So he he is stuck in 71 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:31.160 this kind of loop of depression where I've failed twice and now like I created 72 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.040 Kylo ren and now Ray is going off to try to talk to him, 73 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:39.360 and she's going to turn to the dark side. So he's stuck in this 74 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:45.680 loop and and Yoda is trying to bring him out of that and show Luke 75 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:49.439 that he has not yet failed with Ray, like he has taught her some 76 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.839 lessons, but it's time to let her make her own decisions about right. 77 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.439 Yeah, I think that the timing of what Yoda says there is so important, 78 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.439 feel because of everything you said, but also because and he's alreadys starting 79 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:09.720 to get into this wider question. There are patterns of failure that are repeating 80 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:15.399 all throughout this To me, I think one of the like Luke's failure with 81 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:20.360 Ben, I think is very intentionally meant to mirror Obi Wan's failure with Anakin. 82 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:25.199 And that's a much deeper subject. And obviously Anakin was you know, 83 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.279 very empowered in his own choices and all kinds of stuff. But certainly, 84 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.000 I mean obi Wan himself said, you know, I thought I could teach 85 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:36.000 this person as well as Yoda did. I was wrong. And I also 86 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:43.720 think though that part of what Yoda is saying here is that because part of 87 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.160 what Lucas said in responses, you know, and being critical of the Jedi, 88 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.839 as he said, you know, the Jedi utterly failed to see that 89 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:55.040 Sidius was rising to failed to prevent you know, Anakin from falling and all 90 00:06:55.079 --> 00:07:00.360 that. And I think when Yoda says this, he's not just saying you 91 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.360 need to learn from your failure. He's saying, Luke, you need to 92 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:08.360 learn from mine. Because what he's saying is that, like, because Luke 93 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.000 and Ray have to rebuild the Jedi, and really Ray will have to rebuild 94 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.439 the Jedi. And I think for me, part of why that line is 95 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.160 so powerful is because it is Yoda saying, don't don't just follow the Jedi 96 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:24.000 texts exactly. Don't try to do things exactly how You're right, Luke, 97 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.360 we the Jedi of the prequel era failed. You have to learn not just 98 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:32.519 from your failure but from hours and see how to best go forward. Oh 99 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:41.480 boy, Okay, I don't I don't know that Yoda would admit that he 100 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.879 failed. No, No, I don't know if he's saying that. I 101 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:51.040 think we agree. I think that the Jedi Council failed right in terms of 102 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:58.000 the conflict with the Sith and letting cities take control, and we we could 103 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.560 talk about that. But Zyoda admitting that he failed, I don't know about 104 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:07.199 that. Interesting. Yeah, well, listeners, let us know what you 105 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.680 think, because yeah, to me, that's very much what it's about. 106 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:18.439 I think, in particularly because of it's coming So I think in particularly because 107 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.759 all that Lucas said about because what he critiques that the Jedi of that time. 108 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.199 He doesn't say you did this, but he very much. You know, 109 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.360 Yoda was one of the leaders of that that as with Mace Windu as 110 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.799 was everyone else. And I do want to just also interject here just because 111 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:37.720 I think this is another thing that internet debate can get real, can go 112 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.360 really far in bad directions on I do not think that the failure of the 113 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.080 Jedi. I put this differently, I do not think that the fall of 114 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.879 the Republic, the fall of the Jedi, or the fall of Anakin. 115 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.679 For me, none of those. The conversation of blame and failure is not 116 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.919 zero sum. I think a lot of people try to get into an argument 117 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.600 of, oh, it wasn't Anakin's fault at all, because the Jedi fit 118 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.720 failed, or because it was all Palpatine, so it's no one else's fault. 119 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.879 I'm not trying to say who has more fault or less fault. I 120 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.279 think in the end most rests with Anakin himself, at least in that particular 121 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.480 department, and it was Citius himself. But I think we can still say 122 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.279 that, like, you know, without making it about one more than the 123 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.919 other, that the Jedi failed in terms of how they didn't see Citious coming, 124 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:22.320 they didn't see the fault of the Republic and the Jedi and the Anakin 125 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:31.200 coming. I actually put a lot more blame on the Jedi Council and probably 126 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:39.039 specifically Yoda. Like I the show The Acolyte is about to come out, 127 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.039 and I feel my gut is that this is going to show us that Yoda 128 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:50.840 is much more at fault than previously shown to be. There find it hard 129 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:56.360 to believe that we reach a point in the Phantom Menace right where they say 130 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:03.080 the Sith have been extinct for a thousand and years and Yoda has been alive 131 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:07.360 for most of that, and the scenes of stuff, and we'll probably see 132 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.960 some things in the Acolyte question mark and he I think in that scene he 133 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.799 gives Mace a look. Yeah, it's always been a question like, well, 134 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.600 what does that look mean. I think the new interpretation of Star Wars 135 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.960 is going to be that they knew and they were hiding stuff from the rest 136 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:31.080 of the council. Interesting. Interesting, I've always thought that it's the other 137 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:37.720 way that because of their belief and you know, in the High Republic books 138 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:39.600 going to this somewhat, you know, kind of the the Jedi just don't 139 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:45.639 believe it's possible, and so they might see signs but they don't. It's 140 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:48.399 not that they know the Sith are out there, it's that they see these 141 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.679 signs and they don't. They're like, oh no, that can't be the 142 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.639 Seth. But you're right. The Acolite can answer a lot of those questions. 143 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:58.480 And I guess, yeah, it's not that I'm saying it's not that 144 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.440 I'm saying that my application of where the blame falls is different than yours. 145 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:07.360 It's just that I think that for me, trying to debate is it sixty 146 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.840 doesn't really get us anywhere. I just but I do think that you're absolutely 147 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:15.360 right that there were multiple failures there by the Jedi. And it's interesting that 148 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:20.799 like in this quote, like previous to the failure stuff Yoda talks about, 149 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:26.759 right, he says strength mastery, but weakness folly. So what he is 150 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:35.200 expressing is that a master a teacher should not try to appear infallible. To 151 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.279 this, yes, there might have to show that they themselves are fallible because 152 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:48.440 that allows the student to potentially fail and to be okay with that. It's 153 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.320 like, oh, my master can't do everything, so it's okay that I 154 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:56.960 can't do everything yet, like I still have a lot to learn. And 155 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:03.399 that to me like contradation how Yoda acts pretty much through everything, right, 156 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:11.080 like growing weakness folly, Like even beyond the stuff that I am expressing about 157 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.799 what I think will happen with the acolyte already, like Yoda has that scene 158 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.840 with Mace. I think maybe an attack of the clones where they're like, 159 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.480 we have to keep hiding the fact that we're losing our connection with the force 160 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:31.519 from the Senate, right, so they're hiding their weakness, and that contradicts 161 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:37.399 what he's saying here. I mean, go ahead, go ahead, I 162 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:39.679 guess I agree with all that, but I think that's part of why he's 163 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:45.600 saying this now because first, just on this concept when I was in grad 164 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:50.320 school, so I need a pastor, This was one of my teachers really 165 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.360 love to use the phrase the wounded healer, you know, and that as 166 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.840 a pastor, as any kind of leader, you need to be willing to 167 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.279 talk about your own mistakes. You need to be able to talk about out 168 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.799 as parts of the people can see, like, yes, I stumbled the 169 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:05.759 same way you're going to stumble, and I want to show you how I 170 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:11.159 got back up again. His point being that if you've never stumbled, then 171 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:15.279 someone who does stumble is never going to think that you can relate to them. 172 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.120 And I think I've heard you say similar things when you were one of 173 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.360 my mentors as a magic judge. I know when I, you know, 174 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.559 talk to you about a way that I'd screwed up, you would often say 175 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:26.799 yeah, no, I get it, and and mention some of your own 176 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.120 failures. And certainly that was something that many of my mentors, imagine the 177 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.879 gathering judging, have done. So, yeah, so I want to get 178 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:35.240 to the other part, but you want to kind of further emphasize that idea 179 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.120 that I that I do think that a teacher not only should, but has 180 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:45.559 to do that kind of thing because or else either setting an impossible standard and 181 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.360 b the student is now going to think that if they do screw up, 182 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.639 if they do fail, that they shouldn't talk to the master about it. 183 00:13:54.440 --> 00:14:01.279 Well, yeah, like, what is it? I lost that thought anyway. 184 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:03.679 That's fair. Well, so let's talk about the Yoda contradicting himself, 185 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.080 because yeah, I agree, I do agree with you there, I think 186 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:13.639 that I don't I don't get from Yoda the regret. I agree that there 187 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:20.480 are some subtexts that he is expressing that he failed. I just wish that 188 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.639 he in the scene would have just like come out and said so, yeah, 189 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.759 I agree with that. And even in like the Empire, Empire strikes 190 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:35.399 back interactions with Yoda, like they talk about he and obi Wan talk about 191 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:41.120 how they failed with Anakin with Vader, but I don't know, it just 192 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:48.879 doesn't seem like they are necessarily taking responsibility for it. I mean, is 193 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:54.600 that one more of their failures that Luke has to learn from, whether they 194 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.679 say it or not. I mean, and that it might not be that 195 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:00.320 that's what Yoda's saying, but that Luke certainly has to because we do get 196 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.799 that great moment where in Empire, No, it's a return of the Jedi, 197 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:11.720 where you know, Luke confronts forced ghost obi Wan about what happened to 198 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.879 his father, and you know, obi Wan does the well, what I 199 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.720 told you is true from a certain point of view, which I've always thought 200 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.039 as a cop out. What we also to say is that, as I 201 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:24.480 mentioned before, that he thought he could train and again the way that Yoda 202 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.320 had trained him, which we've kind of redcon somewhat, but will move me 203 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:33.759 on that. But he admits he was wrong, and to me, I 204 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:39.559 think that that is I think obi Wan failed as a teacher early on because 205 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:43.440 he wasn't willing to admit that failure. He wanted he didn't want Luke to 206 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:50.279 realize that Darth Vader becoming Darth Vader wasn't part his fault in part again and 207 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.559 I want to, you know, start the debate, but who is it 208 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.480 more or so? But to me, that is an element of obi Wan 209 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:02.679 at least acknowledging his failure and Luke being able to see that. Yeah, 210 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:10.120 there are certainly parallels with obi Wan's failure with Anakin and Luke's failure with Ben. 211 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:17.000 I think what we're missing is maybe some context of what the heck Snoke 212 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:22.080 is, right, Yeah, because Luke mentions in the flashback, the Rascal 213 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:29.960 Moun style flashbacks that like Snoke had already gotten his tendrils into Ben, and 214 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.639 like we know so little about Snoke, like what he is, like what 215 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.519 his powers are. They were like, oh okay, but we ended up 216 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:45.240 not understanding what that means, like compared to how Palpatine got his tendrils into 217 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:49.679 Anakin. Right, the opera scene being so integral, like missing that it's 218 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:57.600 hard to contextualize like how close these two analogies are. Yeah, I think 219 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.440 it's fair. I don't think that it's a direct one for one analogy by 220 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:04.880 any means, but I think there's some connection there. Let's talk about the 221 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.279 role of this idea in the movie itself, because for me, this is 222 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.000 kind of a mission statement of the movie, because it's not Luke's failure with 223 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.559 Ben that's the only failure. Where else do you think this idea comes out 224 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:23.519 in the movie? I mean, for me, like number one is Poe 225 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:30.759 Dammoring, right, I Poe's story in The Last Jedi is probably my favorite 226 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:37.640 one. And I've made the comparison that, you know, the hero's journey 227 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:42.759 of Luke Skywalker the archetype in New Hope. I think Poe goes through what 228 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:48.319 I've called the leader's journey, where he starts off as this hot shot pilot 229 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:55.799 who doesn't understand how to be a leader. And in the opening scene of 230 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:59.839 this movie, he fails, like he destroys the Dreadnought, but that loses 231 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.839 all all the bombers, and General Argana chastises him for it. Right, 232 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.920 He's like, but we destroyed the Dreadnought, so again, like he's not 233 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:12.480 understanding even that he failed in that moment. Yes, it's a failure to 234 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.079 see the larger context and to trust that other people see the larger context. 235 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.000 Yeah, I think you're right, and I think It's a very interesting thing 236 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:30.000 because I think to some extent he repeats the same mistake because in that first 237 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.000 thing, he sees a problem the dreadnought, and he believes that there's a 238 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:38.559 way for him to fix this problem, and his superiors are specifically telling him 239 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:44.079 not to do this, but he goes ahead anyway. Then, in the 240 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:48.519 second half of the movie, when Admiral Holdo is telling him that there is 241 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.720 a plan that he just has to trust and believe, once again he fails 242 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.519 because he doesn't see the context. He doesn't see uh, you know, 243 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.279 and he doesn't trust that someone else, she's the contact that he doesn't So 244 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:04.440 he takes fin on this whole canto byte mission, which winds up in the 245 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:11.960 end not only failing but pausing great harm because it leads the the the not 246 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.640 the Empire the first order to learn about you know, Holdo's plan and have 247 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:22.839 a lot of those things get destroyed. Yeah, And so is that an 248 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.640 example do you think of where he doesn't learn from, where failure wasn't a 249 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:32.640 teacher for him, or where he just failed to learn from the teacher the 250 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.519 Holdo example, I mean, by the end of the movie, he does 251 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:42.440 learn right, right, he understands like what Luke is doing and that they 252 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:49.000 they should try to escape right versus trying to fight the walkers outside of the 253 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:56.480 outside of the base. So I don't know about the hold of things, 254 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.839 like the whole out thing. Like people are always like, oh, like 255 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.240 Holdo should have told it, and I'm like, no, like hoh should 256 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.480 have followed the chain of command, followed his orders well, which is also 257 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:14.720 what he didn't do with the Dreadnaught. Yeah, I can't remember if he 258 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.319 got specific orders. I thought Leah specifically tells him not to do this, 259 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.200 but maybe he's misremembering. Yeah, but no, certainly, I think he 260 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:29.000 has a great journey and I you and I talked about a later book the 261 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.839 name Whi's Now Escaping Me, But it's about Poe after this moment where I 262 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.359 think he really does acknowledge that he he he did learn and I think it's 263 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:41.880 that difference of that. And I hate this because it's like, hopefully you 264 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.680 shouldn't need this, But I feel like he got to see the cost of 265 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.640 his failure. Win Holdill finally explain to him, you know, all that 266 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:55.000 had happened, and well, but then he saw the cost of his failure 267 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.200 earlier, so it's it's frustrating, I think, but I think is in 268 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:02.240 some way very real that he had had he had to fail twice to learn 269 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.519 this, and that doesn't make it good and things were a lot better if 270 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:08.640 he didn't. But he does learn when he's willing to listen to that teacher. 271 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.519 Yeah. I can't remember the name of the book either, Uh, 272 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:25.519 Resistance. I think Resistance Rising, but I'll look it up while you talk. 273 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:32.359 I think it was a Resistance Reborn r are. Yeah. Yeah, 274 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:38.400 I mean in this movie, like Poe definitely learns from failure, does Finn. 275 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:44.640 I don't think Finn learns. Unfortunately, Finn gets such a raw deal 276 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:49.160 in these movies, as he really does so much potential, it just keeps 277 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:56.200 sidelining him or just like having him be like too stubborn for for the context 278 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.319 of the moment. Mm hmm. I wish that Finn had a bigger learning 279 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.440 moment. Yeah, which is sure that I I I definitely feel like one 280 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.799 of the biggest failures of that movie and of the third movie is, as 281 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.279 you say, the sidelining of that character. And while I would love for 282 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.359 Finn to come back for the new movies, they're making. I know, 283 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.799 John Boyega the actor, is very upset about how he was treated, and 284 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:23.680 I like, I love to see the character back, but I also very 285 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:29.559 much understand if he doesn't want to come back, what about give it some 286 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.240 time? I would say, yeah, that's true, just like because I 287 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.279 agree, like as a human being, his reaction to this whole thing is 288 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.920 like, why would I want to go back to this? Yeah, but 289 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:45.240 we've seen, like in Star Wars, like in any fandom, but in 290 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:52.759 Star Wars fandom, how an initial like negative reaction to something over time, 291 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.920 like time heals wounds and the fandom has come around, or the fantom has 292 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:02.799 you know, just aged and mature in a way that allows us to revisit 293 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:08.200 things like the Obi Wan Kenobi show and specifically hate and Christensen coming back to 294 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:18.480 Star Wars when he was at the time like fairly maligned. Yeah, does 295 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:25.319 Kylo rend learn something in this movie or his failure teacher for him, either 296 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:30.240 before this movie or now he learns to walk around without a shirt on? 297 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:36.279 I don't know. I just had to get that in because that scene always 298 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.200 crows me up. No, it's it's very true. It's very true, 299 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:44.640 and like look after the monster at the end of Attack of the Clones rips 300 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:51.039 padme shirt in an incredibly coincidental way that just happens to expose Natalie Portman's midriff. 301 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.599 I feel like, you know, having some some eye candy. On 302 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:59.359 the other direction, there's nothing wrong with that either, I think. I 303 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.160 think this is the movie where he starts to he learns to let go of 304 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.400 Vader, which is then kind of undone by the last movie. But I 305 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:15.119 well, although it feels like he he starts to learn, you know, 306 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.519 when he's willing to turn on Snoke to me, is a lot about being 307 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:26.359 willing to you know. It's funny because Poe's failure was to not listen to 308 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.279 his superiors. I think Kylo's is that he does listen too much in to 309 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:34.440 both what Snoke has been saying to him and to you know, whatever else 310 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.279 has been saying to him. And he's willing to turn on Snoke and recognize 311 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.960 that Snoke is not the master he needs. But then he can't go far 312 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.319 enough. He can't learn the lesson that Ray wants him to learn of. 313 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:52.240 Not only are you you know, you're still on the dark side, You're 314 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.880 still doing all these terrible things, and I think, and again people heard 315 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:59.400 me rant about the problems of the last movie, and I won't go into 316 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.960 that again, but I do think that it is one of my disappointments of 317 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.920 the last movie that I feel like there was a real path of learning Kylo 318 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.160 could have gone on from this moment that instead they just took him in the 319 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:15.680 direction they took him. And he does learn some things by the end because 320 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.200 the magical power of kissing Ray. But again that's a whole other discussion. 321 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:25.160 But do you think there's some element to which he does partially learn in the 322 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:32.200 way his attitude towards Snow changes. That's I think that's a symptom or maybe 323 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:40.039 like a result, but the real Like so Kylo RN's failure in the context 324 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:45.559 as this trilogy is like killing Han Solo, like killing his father, is 325 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:52.759 his point of failure right where he makes a turn, and I think the 326 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:59.480 point that he learns and comes back from that, at least in this movie. 327 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.799 Obviously, like in the last movie, he has a bigger moment. 328 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:08.000 But in this movie, like a he doesn't kill Leah, his mother m 329 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.200 right when he's in the fighter and has a bead on her the bridge of 330 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:19.920 her ship. It ends up being one of his wingmen that fires the shot, 331 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:26.119 so he stops himself there. But more importantly, like reaching out to 332 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:34.960 Ray using the connection, the diad connection with Ray and literally touching, touching 333 00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:41.000 hands right in that moment, is him exposing himself like and if we're talking 334 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:48.559 about in the context of the Yoda quotes, like showing weakness or vulnerability is 335 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.039 a better term in that moment, right taking off the glove again like that 336 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:57.359 you mentioned letting go of Vader. He is it this movie where he like 337 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:00.960 literally beats up his own mask. I believe it is. Yeah, he 338 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.160 certainly takes off the mask for a lot of the movie, and then in 339 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:10.920 the scene with Ray takes off his glove as well in order to touch hands 340 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:15.960 with her. Right, So reconnecting like literally connecting like right on the nose, 341 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:22.279 but showing vulnerability and a willingness to reach out to someone and share this 342 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:27.279 bond is important. No, I think that's true, And I think in 343 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:32.119 a way, as I think about it more, I realized I think both 344 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.480 the scene where where Ray and Ben both try to convince each other to join 345 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.759 their side, I think you can see as a failure for both of them 346 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:47.079 because Kylo wants to convince Ray to know on the dark side and she wants 347 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.279 to convince Ray to step away from it, and or she wants to convince 348 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:53.640 him to step away from it. And I think it's a really interesting question 349 00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.400 of how do they both learn from that? And because I think it's very 350 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.240 intentional, right, Like, I think a lot of the complaints people get 351 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.519 about this movie is that, oh, everybody fails, so what's the point? 352 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.359 And I think that to me, everything, it feels like every failure 353 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.079 in this movie is very intentional because of how it reflects to this vision statement 354 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.839 and that I'm not really sure how much Kylo and Ray learned from their failure 355 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.839 in that moment, but I think certainly what Ryan was trying to set up 356 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.759 was that in the third movie it would address that. And you know, 357 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:29.880 we pretty excide my feelings about it. We get a later date talk about 358 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.559 like, do we think that each of them learns in the third movie? 359 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.640 But I certainly think that that well, but I certainly think that the scene 360 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:45.200 was supposed to be have both of them failing. Yeah, yeah, they 361 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:52.960 do kind of come together in Rise of Skywalker obviously, right, not in 362 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:57.279 the way that this movie seems to be suggesting. Well, again I objecting. 363 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.759 I was trying to put that part of the discuss off for another point. 364 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.880 I just want to talk about it in this one. And Yeah, 365 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:12.640 Like, the problem with Kylo Wren, even like through Yea, even throughout 366 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:18.680 the Rise of Skywalker, is that he no, I mean, he does 367 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.559 end up being more vulnerable. I think that's the point, right, is, 368 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:29.759 like he shows his vulnerability to Ray at least, right, and that 369 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.720 that is the lesson that we're trying to learn from this moment or from this 370 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:44.319 quote. Right, Well, certainly he fails catastrophically when it comes to the 371 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:48.680 final scene on the Salt Moon. And so here's a question I have for 372 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.920 you that actually I'm not sure about either. Yoda has reminded Luke that failure 373 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:59.319 is the greatest teacher. Luke feels, I think rightly so that he failed 374 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:04.599 Ben So as his master, Luke is obviously trying to help make sure the 375 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.319 Resistance escapes. I think that's that is very important. But do you think 376 00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:12.720 he's also trying to help to give Kylo w Ren a failure that he can 377 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:18.440 learn from. Either way, he confronts him at the end of the movie. 378 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:26.799 I'd never got that impression. For me, that scene is mostly about 379 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:36.039 helping the Resistance escape and imparting the future to ray right, because the final 380 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.960 part of the quote is the we are what they grow beyond. And he 381 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.160 says like I will not be the last Jedi, like he is passing on 382 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.279 the mantle mm hmm, and saying like my moment has passed, like it's 383 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:56.640 it's not my time anymore. Yes, it's it's raised time. I think 384 00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.440 all of that is true and maybe again, and like, because I love 385 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.960 this mission staatement so much, I want to read it into everything. So 386 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.799 jan fans tell me if you strongly disagree, I think that those are all 387 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:15.720 his primary goals. But I do think that to me, part of Kylo 388 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.559 Wren's failure, part of his problem, like a lot of the Dark Side 389 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:26.200 is you know what Luke said to Palpatine back in Return of the Jedi, 390 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:32.640 that his overconfidence is his failure and that he is belief in his own power 391 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:37.799 is his failure. And I think that's a big part of what happens in 392 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:44.000 this movie is that Luke Luke is because it's not the he defeats him it's 393 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:47.880 that he he shows that he can trick him, that all these powers that 394 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.440 he has, all this machinery, you can fire all these weapons and it 395 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:56.599 won't matter because we can still find a way to get around you. So 396 00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.440 yeah, to me, to me, there's an interesting lesson there, and 397 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:00.799 I think we can talk talk about, you know, what happens. But 398 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:05.559 I totally get that I may just be projecting like crazy here, that's fair 399 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.359 too, project away. Yeah. The last thing, big question I wanted 400 00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:15.759 to bring up is do you think this is a new idea in Star Wars? 401 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.680 How have we seen people learning from failure at other points in the Star 402 00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:27.640 Wars movies. Well, you got to go back to Empire strikes Back because 403 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:34.720 that's the original Yoda loop interaction, and actually, like there's actually a section 404 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.079 of the training where failure is important. Well, there's a couple like you 405 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:45.920 failed a lot in his training. Yep, he fails in the dark Side 406 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:52.839 Cave because he takes he doesn't listen to Yoda and takes a weapon with him 407 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:57.960 and uses it, and then he fails to lift the x Wing. Just 408 00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.680 one thing, just one thing, just one thing on that first one. 409 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:07.160 I think also kind of similar to Poe, he believes that he has defeated 410 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.079 his enemy, like he has a fight with Darth Vader and he wins, 411 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.440 and it's only when he sees his own face and comes to realize the point 412 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.519 of it. So, yeah, I think that that's a very important I 413 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:20.039 don't want to add that as more contact for that, sorry, go on 414 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.680 to the second one that we keep discussing them all. Well, yeah, 415 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.279 when he's lifting the x wing specifically, like Yoda uses the word failure. 416 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:34.839 There, he doesn't lift the x wing, Yoda does. Luke says, 417 00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:38.119 I don't believe it, and Yoda says, that is why you fail. 418 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:44.960 Right, And there's also before that, obviously, like he doesn't use the 419 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.359 word failure. But the most famous Yoda quote, right, do or do 420 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.799 not there is no try? Is interesting to me in the context of this 421 00:33:53.880 --> 00:34:06.400 discussion because do or do not can be translated into this context as succeed or 422 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:12.679 fail, but there is no try. It would be like don't half asset. 423 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.039 Oh, he's interesting because I took that in a very different way because 424 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:20.079 to me, and maybe this is again where I also see what Yoda says 425 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.440 differently. I always took do or do not as and this is why I 426 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:30.280 don't love the phrase as kind of basically saying like, if you really want 427 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.199 to do this, you will do this and you won't fail. And the 428 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.079 idea that you will try but you most might fail, Yoda is saying, 429 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.960 I don't think that's possible. And to me, that's also why. And 430 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:45.039 I think there's later scenes in Rebels where Canaan kind of disagrees with that, 431 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:50.840 and the Yoda he's talking to kind of agrees with him. And so for 432 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:57.039 me, taking those things, both of those things in mind, and again 433 00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:00.320 I wish that Yoda is more explicit. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, 434 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:06.880 but to me, him saying failure is the greatest teacher. You don't 435 00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:10.119 fail unless you try. Like that, that feels to me like him acknowledging 436 00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.760 that that saying do or do not or there's no try is a stupid thing 437 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.199 to say. Yeah, I mean that's you have to try. Like I 438 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:22.760 said, these are like airport books. Yeah, exactly. It's a snappy 439 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:28.440 phrase, but you have to apply the lesson to yourself, to your own 440 00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:37.880 life, right, So what I'm suggesting with do or do not is right, 441 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.280 Like because he says do or do not? There is no try to 442 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:47.480 do in some context, you have to try right and then you do well 443 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:52.239 or sometimes you don't right like the do not part right like. I think 444 00:35:52.280 --> 00:36:00.760 what we're saying that the different interpretations are do not as in Luke doesn't even 445 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:06.360 attempt to lift the x wing, or do not as he attempts to lift 446 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:12.079 the x wing but fails. I guess the way that I see it is 447 00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:16.440 that it's the mentality that what with Yoda's saying is, if you tell yourself 448 00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:21.960 I am going to move this X wing without any thought that you might fail, 449 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.159 then you'll do it because you are so confident in your power that you 450 00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:29.440 will have the power. But then if you tell yourself, I'm going to 451 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.519 try to live this X wing and I don't know if I can, and 452 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:36.360 I might fail, but I'm going to give it my best shot, Yoda 453 00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.400 is saying that then you will fail. You have to completely believe you will 454 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:44.519 succeed in order to succeed, and I don't. I simply don't think that's 455 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.840 true, and I think that's an unhelpful philosophy. And to me, I 456 00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.079 agree, and to me, I think that that's where the because the flip 457 00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.800 side of that is you should try and if you fail, learn from your 458 00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.639 Like, failure can be a good thing, and you have to fail in 459 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:04.800 order to learn how to not fail. Yeah, I mean I was thinking 460 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:08.000 about I was thinking about this topic while I was on while I was jogging, 461 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:15.280 and in the context of exercise and training, whether whether it's you know, 462 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:20.639 like endurance training or like say weightlifting, you have to try, right, 463 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.840 Like if you're bench pressing, you're like, I don't know if I 464 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:25.880 can bench press I don't know two hundred pounds, let's say, I don't 465 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.320 know if that's good or bad. Yeah, but just pick a weight you 466 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.840 don't know if you can do it. You have to try, right, 467 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:37.599 and if you can do it, great, then you up the weight. 468 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:43.519 At some point you can't, right, and you you quote unquote fail, 469 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:50.800 but you you've learned a limit. And like that's what exercise is. Like, 470 00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:55.880 training your muscles is about finding that failure point, reaching that point and 471 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.000 then you literally like break the you know, tendon of your muscles and then 472 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:07.280 they regrow stronger. Right, Like That's that's what exercise is. And and 473 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.400 so like for me, like that's how I contextualize this part of it. 474 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.920 Do or do not is like, you know, just just do it, 475 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.840 Nike, just do it and then if you fail, okay, like figure 476 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:22.719 figure it out or like try again the next day. Then when you're a 477 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.239 little bit stronger. Yeah, I think that's when I the force is weird. 478 00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:30.760 Like I don't know how the force of that one. No one knows 479 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.119 how the force works. They just make it up like per movie or TV 480 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.519 show, But it feels like it. It is probably like a muscle that 481 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:43.320 there's kind of like a learned or trained element to it that if you use 482 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.760 it, you continue to get stronger up to a certain degree, right, 483 00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:51.679 Like Obi Wan Kenobi showed that in the TV show where he hadn't used the 484 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:55.760 force for ten years or something, and you'd be sucked at it at the 485 00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:01.960 beginning of that show. Every time we've seen they're struggling to you know, 486 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.960 first learn how to lift something, or you know, every lightsaber training scene, 487 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:13.119 the padawan is losing to the master, they're failing at defeating the master. 488 00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:19.239 I do agree in the context of like when Empire Strikes Back first came 489 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:27.000 out that the quote do or do not as an element of because Luke is 490 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.480 like I can't like I don't know if I can do it, I'll try, 491 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:35.280 like because it's he's lifted rocks. But it's like that's so big, 492 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.840 like an X wing, and the audience is in the same boat because we 493 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:45.159 have not really seen the force used in this context, right with something as 494 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.559 large as an X wing, So like, can you do that with the 495 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:52.480 force? It's like, I don't know, and Yoda is saying, like, 496 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:57.400 you just gotta do it. You can eventually, but you just gotta 497 00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:02.280 do it. Yeah, no, not today, But I think there'll be 498 00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:09.679 an ancient conversation to have about how does Yoda's concept of do or do not 499 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:14.760 there's no try compare with the Matrix's idea of there is no spoon angret that 500 00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:17.320 that's a whole other thing that's virtual reality. Which interesting thought occurred to me 501 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:24.559 as we're talking about this. Let's kind of start wrapping up what do you 502 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:29.199 no? It's out there. There's one other instance where I think that there's 503 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.199 a couple of instances I think where characters fail either do or don't learn in 504 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:36.039 them. I talked about before about Obi Wan saying saying that he acknowledging he 505 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:42.280 failed with Anakin. Do you think Luke failed when he went to best Bin 506 00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:51.440 to try and rescue his friends. Did Luke fail. I mean, let's 507 00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:58.960 see, yes, Like from a plot perspective, he failed because he didn't 508 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:04.440 say, well, they were already rescuing themselves, right, so he didn't 509 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:08.840 say he didn't save them and certainly didn't save Han right or at that point 510 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:14.840 in the movie hand mm hmm. Although there is a question of if he 511 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:20.719 doesn't go, would Vader have been more like, if they if anyone was 512 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.960 to waiting for Luke and they do indication Luke was going, would Vader have 513 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:27.559 been able to stop them getting away? Oh, it's like he was a 514 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:31.400 distraction. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I've always thought this is an 515 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.039 interesting question because his hand is chopped. He loses the fight to Vader, 516 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:43.840 absolutely, but he definitely fails in that regard. Yeah, but remember Vader 517 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.800 isn't trying to kill him. Vader's trying to turn him to the dark side. 518 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.960 Luke succeeds in not turning to the dark side, and Luke succeeds in 519 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.880 getting away. I gint it needs a lot of help for that. But 520 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.320 you know, Vader isn't able to either capture him or turn him to the 521 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.719 dark side. So I've always looks very interesting because I always again in this 522 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.079 question of like how much are Yoda and obi Wan right or wrong? I 523 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:13.519 think that in the end they are, like because if he doesn't go, 524 00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:15.719 I think it's much more likely that they all wind up captured and maybe even 525 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:23.280 killed. And so I guess I've always seen it as obi Wan and Yoda 526 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:29.280 are somewhat wrong to tell him not to go. Oh they're well, they're 527 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:38.440 very wrong, yeah, because they are still hiding the relationship the fact that 528 00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:45.360 Vader is Luke's father, right, and they're training Luke, they're training Luke 529 00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.960 to be a weapon, right, and saying you have to kill Vader, 530 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.440 and ultimately that's not what happens. Luke Brant defeats Vader in the duel in 531 00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:00.639 Return of the Jedi, but it's his compassion and his connection and that ultimately 532 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:09.639 turns Vader back to Anakin and he helps him to temporarily defeat Sidious Palpatine. 533 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:16.920 Yeah. So I yeah, I absolutely think like obi Wan and Yoda were 534 00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:24.280 wrong to like hide that from Luke and to basically like try to trick him 535 00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:30.039 into killing his own father without even knowing it. And I think like the 536 00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:37.480 whole the original trilogy is showing that they were wrong and that Luke's connection with 537 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:44.800 his father is ultimately what wins everything right. And I guess that's why for 538 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:52.679 me, Yoda's statement feels very self confessional, because I've always seen it that 539 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:58.119 part of why Yoda and Ben are so hesitant is that, like, because 540 00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:00.400 Luke is trying to do the exact thing that both of them tried to do 541 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:06.679 and failed. Ben tried to bring Vader back based on the love they had 542 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.320 for each other as brothers. He couldn't do it. Yoda tried to defeat 543 00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:15.000 a Sith master in Palpatine and couldn't do it as well as all of you, 544 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.639 you know. And that because to me, I think, to some 545 00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:24.400 extent, the that scene on Dagoba is both of them not letting, not 546 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:29.000 not be willing to acknowledge that Luke is going to grow beyond them. And 547 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:32.119 and so for me, when when Yoda says they are behind, he's saying 548 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.119 Ray is going to grow beyond you the same way you grew beyond me. 549 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:42.400 Yeah, Okay, I think I can. I think I can get behind 550 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:47.519 that. I just wish, you know, we don't need everything to be 551 00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:54.639 as explicit as you mentioned the matrix before, and I just the scene where 552 00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:01.239 Trinity is like, no, Neo, you can't die because the Oracle said 553 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:07.239 that I would fall in love with a one I love you. It's like 554 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:13.000 like at least one stage too far. I needed like another stage of Yoda 555 00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:16.840 saying you gotta let Ray try. I don't know, Yeah, yeah, 556 00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:20.840 no, I think you're right. I think I'm head cannoning like crazy here 557 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:22.280 and I think, like, I think you're right. Sometimes it goes too 558 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.840 far, and I think Ryan left it a little understated. It doesn't it 559 00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:32.480 doesn't need to be. Look at how we didn't let you talk to Vader 560 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:37.000 and then like ultimately because you talked to him, that's what turned the tide 561 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.079 and got him to turn back to the light side. Doesn't have to go 562 00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:45.239 that far. But I think it's like, yeah, like, give give 563 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.679 Ray a chance, like to do it her way. Yeah, and it's 564 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.119 it's I agree, like looking at it now, that is what it's implying. 565 00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:57.880 I just needed to be stage two. Yeah, I hear that, 566 00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:00.199 And yeah, I wish that have been in this movie, which had been 567 00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.880 the next movie. You know, but we have we have all right, 568 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:06.840 They have the last comments you want to make on this we move into a 569 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:08.239 member section. We're going to talk little more about Last Jedi and just some 570 00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.639 of the other things we loved about it, I guess, but let me 571 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:14.760 actually ask you this, then, what do you see as the value because 572 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:15.920 I think it is again one of the things that's most debated, but I 573 00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:19.679 think it is part of this mission. This whole idea. What is the 574 00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:27.159 importance of the Canto Byte scene and that whole plotline. I have no idea 575 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:31.719 Anto Bite. There's a whole book. I have to I have to read 576 00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:36.079 that book because I can't believe like they would make a whole book about Canto 577 00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:40.559 Byte. But it's I don't know. Maybe the point of Canto Byte is 578 00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:45.239 it's the failure of this movie and then it gives us like a whole other 579 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:52.519 planet and whole scene. I understand, like where it's supposed to fit, 580 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:57.280 but it doesn't fit that well in this movie, and it just feels like 581 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:05.280 they needed to fill time. M hm. So I've never I enjoy Canto 582 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.360 Bite, but I never I feel like it's never really earned its keep. 583 00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:15.719 That's fair. I think that it does have a point in that I think 584 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.360 like I was saying before, I think it's that Poe hasn't fully learned his 585 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:27.679 lesson and has to have it drilled in even further. But given how disastrously 586 00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:34.960 the Dreadnought thing goes, I do, I do, Maybe I'm not sure 587 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.960 it's needed. Like I think I know exactly what Ryan Johnson was doing with 588 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:40.280 it, and I think he does that well in that it is this other 589 00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:47.599 existence of failure and particular Poe to some extent repeating his failure. And I'm 590 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:55.320 so it's a lot more about Finn. Well, but Poe is the one 591 00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:59.440 who doesn't trust Hole though, and thus comes up with this idea that him 592 00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:06.239 and Finn should go off on this mission together. Yeah, I just and 593 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:09.119 I agree with you that it probably would have worked a lot better if Finn 594 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.840 had had some important lesson that he learns as part of it. But he 595 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.239 then, according to the movie, fails again, you know, with him 596 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:22.119 trying to wreck the star destroyer power cannon on the ground thing that he does. 597 00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:29.239 Well, it's so weird because then like they fail to find they failed 598 00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:36.280 to connect with the Master splicer right in the casino, and then just luck 599 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:42.559 into what's his name? DJ? Yeah, who was like almost master splicer 600 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:49.119 or like splicer enough. And I think the problem I have with that whole 601 00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:55.639 section is that it doesn't seem like they have agency because of that, because 602 00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:00.039 they just kind of like fall into DJ or he falls into their that it's 603 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.400 like, oh, well, he's good enough, right, like let's go, 604 00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:09.320 And so I never quite got behind that part of it. I think 605 00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:16.559 that's maybe that's the point, because that that does ultimately lead to them getting 606 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:22.199 caught because DJ betrays them. I mean, on some level, I think 607 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:28.079 you could look at it as the kind of picard lesson that that's quote on 608 00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:32.360 so many memes of sometimes you can do everything right and still fail, which 609 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:37.800 I think is another idea, but it's they don't do everything, they don't 610 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.480 do anything. They just they kind of keep failing and like, oh well, 611 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.960 this is good enough. It just I've spent so much time defending this 612 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.079 movie that I want to defend it here. But I think I think at 613 00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:53.039 the level you're right, yeah, I think that Can't Bite is the weakest 614 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:58.639 part of the movie in my opinion, because of this like falling into DJ 615 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.519 just because it fits into this whole like they didn't know what to do with 616 00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:07.960 Finn. It it just feels like they sent them to Canto Bite because they 617 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:10.800 needed him to be on screen more. I would love to see what the 618 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:15.360 original script was like, because, you know, and to wonder how what 619 00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:17.239 was there originally something more for Finn in it? You know, any of 620 00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:24.599 this stuff, because I think you're right, And I think, because where 621 00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.280 I keep kind of getting stuck is should Finn have learned the lesson just from 622 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.360 what happened with the Dreadnaught? And I do think there's something important about the 623 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:39.159 idea that if your heroes always learn the lesson from failure, I don't think 624 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:44.440 that's accurate. I do think a lot of times people explain away, or 625 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.639 they use excuses, or they try to, you know, not acknowledge themselves 626 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:52.239 how much the failure was their fault, and that they have to listen to 627 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.119 that, you know, the whole, like you're not listening to the teacher 628 00:50:54.199 --> 00:51:00.760 idea. And so I feel like it is important that Poe doesn't just learn 629 00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:06.000 the lesson from what Leah tells him. He has to fail again. But 630 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:10.400 I agree, I don't think it's well executed. But like in them, 631 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:15.599 like po has a good arc. Yeah, in this movie I think we 632 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:22.239 can agree on that. The problem I have is like Finn doesn't have a 633 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:28.480 a good arc or anything. I don't know, like it's I justice, 634 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:32.760 justice for Finn. Yeah, agreed, and I we did an episode a 635 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:39.519 long time ago about it. There's a animated special where it's an animated movie 636 00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:44.320 that's like, you know, the Star Wars Summer Adventure or something like that, 637 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:47.679 and it's it's mostly silly, but in it, obi Wan like forced 638 00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:51.440 ghost. Obi Wan specifically goes up to Fan and I was like, you're 639 00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:52.679 supposed to be a Jedi. Why aren't you a Jedi yet? I'm going 640 00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:54.880 to help teach you how to be a Jedi. Yeah, no, it's 641 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.199 it's really and I feel like it's like Star Wars first starting to acknowledge we 642 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:04.400 screwed up. Finn should have been a Jedi. And again it was in 643 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:09.400 this very like low stakes thing. We did an episode about it. I 644 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.960 think it is it's either lego or just plain animation. But I will find 645 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:17.159 it and show the I will share the link to both the movie itself and 646 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:22.239 also our discussion of it. But yeah, I think that's uh. If 647 00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.800 there's a failure of Ryan Johnson and of Lucasfilm and of Disney, it's that 648 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:30.119 they treated Finn badly and they didn't make him a Jedi. And I hope 649 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:37.320 that the the treatment of Hayden Christiansen and even more so the treatment of Ahmed 650 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:44.079 Best is that, you know, I think Disney understands that Lucasfilm and and 651 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.920 and then themselves have not treated a lot of their characters, but especially their 652 00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:52.559 actors of color very well. Because Rose Tran also gets completely shafted in that 653 00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:59.320 third movie. So Rose Tico. Sorry, the actress is named Kelly Murray 654 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:01.519 Tran. Yeah, sorry, I got the mixed up, all right, 655 00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:07.320 Okay, Well, I just want to comment on that, like I think, 656 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:14.440 like the Star Wars franchise, Disney, like whatever you want to call 657 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:21.480 it, Lucasfilm, whatever, this organization that creates Star Wars, I agree 658 00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:30.920 there have been like these past failures of how they did not react properly to 659 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:39.039 fandom, like especially like racist hatred in the fandom. And I thought how 660 00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:49.119 they reacted during the Obi Wan Kenovi show to Moses all the attacks she got, 661 00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:54.159 y yeah, Moses singroom actress who plays Reva. That was them learning 662 00:53:54.599 --> 00:54:00.480 from the past and saying we're just gonna put our foot down now, and 663 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:07.599 they made public statements. Ewan McGregor put out a lovely short video about it, 664 00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:13.320 and I don't I don't know like if it was all done in the 665 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:15.599 best way, but it was better than the past. And I think that 666 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:21.039 that's the point. It's like, Okay, we acknowledge that in the past, 667 00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:23.360 like there were these failures, and we're going to try a little something 668 00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:28.719 different, try to be better, and we're moving forward. And I I 669 00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:37.199 think like that's the lesson is like the overall lesson of this quote is don't 670 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:42.360 get consumed by failure because it is a part of the process. Yeah, 671 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:47.760 and you can acknowledge it and then analyze it and try to learn from it. 672 00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.239 I think you're really true, that's really right. And I'm just on 673 00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:54.320 kind of what Disney has done because in many ways, I think that the 674 00:54:54.320 --> 00:55:00.199 failure that happened with John Boyega and Finn and Rose and Killy Mary Tran is 675 00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:05.400 that they listened too much to the fans and their anger and you know, 676 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.280 tone down finn story and so to me when with Moses Ingram, not only 677 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:13.760 did they defend her, but you know, they kind of have said, 678 00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:16.280 oh, you don't like that the second biggest star, maybe the third biggest 679 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:19.639 star, was a person of color. Well, guess what, here's the 680 00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:24.280 Alcolyte where the actual main character is played by a version of color. So 681 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.440 which, funnily enough, it's the actress who played Rue in the Hunger Games, 682 00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.880 who also got a hell of a lot of shit because people were very 683 00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.880 upset that it was a black girl playing Rue, even though in the book 684 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:44.840 they clearly state, you know that her skin is much darker than catnesses, 685 00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:50.199 and her curly hair and other things like that. So yeah, it's the 686 00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:53.039 cycles going on and on. Anyway, we actually already talked about some other 687 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.119 parts of Last Jedi, So for our bonus content, we're going to be 688 00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:00.199 talking about this idea and how we see it in kind of other media that 689 00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:04.039 we love or don't see it another media we love. But for anyone who 690 00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:05.760 wants that, of course, you know, become a member. Only five 691 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:07.880 dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. All that's in the show 692 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:12.159 notes. All that is if you go to the Ethicalpana dot com there also 693 00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.239 is all the ways to contact us. We love feedback, we want more 694 00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:16.159 feedback. Let us know what you think of this, Let us know what 695 00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:20.519 you think of the discussion. Let us know how you feel about all different 696 00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:22.840 things we had to say. Well, as you got to feedback and put 697 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:25.800 up our feedback post on Facebook, I meant to discuss it here, but 698 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:30.079 we'll discuss it in our next episode as part of that feedback, So please 699 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:34.079 do that. Please become a member. Most importantly, though, remember we have spoken