Three The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, an
idea. The population of atheist this country is going through the rule, rejecting
faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth,
it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on a
book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. Take
the risk of thinking feels much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom
will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start
thinking. This is The Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Said andrews Oh. I've
been a bad example. I've been a bad boy. I'm a fugitive from
justice. I'm lawless. Here's the story. I was coming back from a
couple of tour stops in Texas. I'd spoken in Dallas, Texas. Then
I went down to Houston and left on Sunday around one o'clock PM. From
Houston Oasis, I was just going to drive all the way home, and
I am not making this up. I'm not kidding. I was a great
driver. I drove like two miles an hour over the speed limit all the
way home, like nine hours. I obeyed the law. Okay, and
one of the reasons is, and I got to admit this. A few
weeks ago, I got pulled over for going a little bit fast and I
was given a warning. Now, I haven't had a speeding ticket in decades.
My driving record is immaculate. Okay, it's perfect, and so I
didn't want to screw that up. So I'm driving the limit, got my
audio book in, I'm just cruising right along, and eight hours into my
nine hour drive, I end up going through this little one horse town called
Henrietta in Oklahoma. Henrietta, the highway goes through and there's a stoplight,
and then you go through this small section of highway or whatever. And I'm
doing sixty five. Stop at the stop light, and then I cruise back
up to sixty five. Okay, no harm, no foul. But I
was listening to my audio book and apparent light didn't see these little signs and
they didn't say sixty five for no reason on a stretch of highway near nothing,
I mean, there's nothing got highway. It said forty five. And
lo and behold in my rear view there are the police lights. Shit right,
shit, nine o'clock at night. I'm tired, I'm cranky, I
want to get home. I pull over and this small town police officer,
you know, this Beauford Tea pusser. By the way, that's a seventies
reference. Bauford Tea Pusser was a real police officer. It's a real shaff.
Beauford Tea Pusser pulls me over and he walks up to the window and
he's like, license and insurance please, And I was like, oh my
god, I don't even know what the speed limit had been, right,
I thought it was sixty five and I'd gone just a little bit over.
The word speed trap going off in my mind. But I also know better
than to try to weasel my way out of whatever's about to happen. Right,
cops, they've heard every story, every excuse in the book. I'm
late for work, my wife is pregnant, someone says, in a crisis,
blah blah blah. I mean, why bother right? I mean,
the best thing to do is just and over your stuff, own it,
and hopefully you'll get some grace. So he takes my stuff and he goes
back, and I can tell I'm getting a ticket because of the length of
time it takes him to come back to the car finally comes back and he
says, you realize you were going sixty seven and a forty five. Now
I'm doing the math on that. I think over twenty miles an hour over
the speed limit isn't just speeding. I think I think they can call that
reckless driving. It's like I bumped her down to fifty five and a forty
five. Best I can do for you. Here's your ticket, and I'm
just looking at this thing. Thanks officer. Slow down out there now tonight,
yes sir, yes, sir, and then I drive away. So
for one quarter mile stretch in a nine hour journey, I a speed sign
and got caught. And now I have a ticket, and I'm just pissed.
And the writing on the ticket is like a carbon copy. I can't
read anything. I can't read what is there a fine? Is there an
amount? And then there's a court date, which I thought said this.
Apparently it did not. So I had mailed my fine one hundred and forty
nine dollars to the town of Henrietta. And you are welcome, okay,
Henrietta. You just enjoy that money. You go buy everybody some donuts and
do whatever you're going to do with this speed trap revenue that I have sent
your way. Okay, But the next day I receive in the mail a
letter that says you have missed your court date. You failed to appear before
the judge. Holy shit, I'm now in content to court. What it's
just been a few days. I'm lawless. I'm now a fugitive from justice.
The men in dark sunglasses going to show up at my door and they're
gonna hold me away, like the town of Henriette is going to send somebody
an hour into Tulsa, Oklahoma to come get me. But you know,
curse, your mind goes to places like what does this look like on my
record? What are the consequences? I call the court clerk and I'm like,
look, you should have a check with my name on it. I
just don't want the ca stop to show up and do something to me,
and I don't want anything bad on my record. And she laughed and she's
like, you're fine, honey. I love it when small town people call
you honey. It's like going into a to a little restaurant, you know,
a little truck stop restaurant. They call you, hey, darling,
can I get you some pancakes. There's just something so endearing about that.
I just love it. So she's like, don't worry about it, honey,
you know, give me the ticket number. I said, don't worry
about not being able to read the writing. That always happens these police officers.
Their writings just terrible. Don't you sweat it? Oh no, look,
you've got a zero balance. We got your money, and so that
letter goes out automatically. And don't you just throw that in the trash,
dear, don't you worry about it. You are just fine. In fact,
we don't report our tickets to the state, so it won't go on
your record. Okay. And I've have two minds on this. One is
my record remains clean. The second thought is, now I know this is
a speed trap, right because it's not about the law. It's not about
trying to make me a better driver and keep me in the straight and narrow
under the limit. No, this is about one hundred and forty nine dollars,
that's what that's about. So anyway, I just I'm walking around all
the time telling people I'm lawless, fugitive from justice. You know, I
can't be governed, I can't be contained. That's been the story I've been
telling lately. Just an interesting and enjoyable anecdote to start the conversation today.
What else is going on? Oh, here's another anecdote. It is.
It's an example of how I'm not always the man I wish I could be.
And I'm going to throw myself at your feet. I'm gonna throw myself
at your mercy and the hopes that you will give me the grace and mercy
that the Henry at a police officer did not. Because I screwed up.
We went to go see Oppenheimer at the Imax. I'm not going to give
you any spoilers here at all, so you're safe. Oppenheimer. The new
Christopher Nolan film starring Silly and Murphy is brilliant. It is so thick and
smart and challenging and amazing. I've never seen anything like it. Different than
what I expected. I thought it was going to be more of a kind
of a special effects showcase about bombs, you know, knowing Christopher Nolan,
but it was really more a political thriller with so many gears in the machine,
so many moving parts. I'm gonna have to see it again, maybe
twice. More just to catch everything that was happening. But it was a
big deal. So there are four of us, took my family, and
after the tickets, Imax tickets, and popcorn, we're talking over one hundred
dollars, so it's kind of a big deal. And we're in this packed
matinee theater and the trailers are playing, and I noticed the couple next to
me, the man and a woman, and they're both pulling their phones out
of their pockets and talking to each other. Now, I let this slide
during the trailers, even though you know how I feel about people talking and
texting in a theater. You've heard my rant about social contracts and how the
sign says don't be discourdious, don't talk or text, and people do it
anyway. So I was already ramped up. The movie begins. It's a
critical first ten minutes, as all of the pieces start coming into place.
You really got to pay attention in a Christopher Nolan film. And during that
first ten minutes, to my right, this man and this woman continue to
yank their cell phones out of their pockets and start talking to each other so
loud that I notice even Natalie is distracted. She's looking over at them.
I'm looking over at them, And before I realized I was doing it,
I leaned over and I said, hey, hey, stop talking. And
this man, kind of a stocky bearded guy, looked at me and he
said, why did't you mind your own business and shut the fuck off?
And I said, why don't you shut the fuck up? Oh my god,
I just I just said it. Before I realized, I said,
what, you shut the fuck up? And immediately Natalie is like, you
know, she's sort of pushing me back, and his wife's pushing It's not
like we were going to go to blows, but we were definitely having words
right there in the middle of a dark theater. It was so I mean,
I have confronted people before, but this is the antithesis of the kind
of behavior that I have been trying to exemplify in my life, which is
being the adult in the room right being a de escalator. And I was
guilty of all the things I've been condemning. And I sat there and I'm
sure both of us were just ramped up. I'm sure he was over there
steaming and I was over here steaming. And so the movie goes on for
another half hour, Natalie, I'm sure wanted to crawl into her chair.
I'd embarrassed her and made her weird. And then he gets up to go
to the bathroom. Now I found out later that Natalie at this moment was
concerned he was going to the parking lot to his car to get a gun
and come back and kill me. I didn't know that at the time,
but if he got up and he went out to the bathroom, I got
up and I followed him out, and I could see him. He was
walking down toward the men's restroom and I was behind him, and I walked
into the restroom and there he is, and he's standing against the wall at
the urinal and I was over near the sink, and I let him see
me. And the first thing I said was, Man, I'm so sorry
for blowing up at you in the theater. So I was just I screwed
up. And he smiled and he said, oh, don't worry about it,
you know, it's it's no big deal. It's and I said no,
and then he said, well, the thing is, my daughter was
in a car wreck. And so we were getting text and we were trying
to figure out if you know what was going on, and I said,
you know, I'm sorry to hear that, but honestly, there's no excuse
no matter what you were talking about. I'm really sorry for my behavior.
I totally screwed up. And he's like, well, I'm sorry too,
you know, I I overreacted. And then there was a pause and he
looked at me and he goes, you know, we're guys, me big
man, get a thing. And so I sort of sagued over and I'm
standing at the wall in another few moments passed and I said, you know,
I apologized at the urinal. This is awkward, and we both busted
out laughing again. And so we ended up back out in the lobby and
we walked into the theater. He held the door for me and I both
we both went back to our chairs, and Natalie just looked at me like,
what the hell just happened? And I whispered in her ear we are
best friends now, and she smiled, and everybody relaxed and we enjoyed the
rest of the movie. But I I was driving home, I really felt
a sense of shame. What's that about? You know, yes, they
should have gone to the lobby, okay, but I didn't know what the
context was. You know, they were going through a crisis. They probably
weren't thinking about anybody else. They were thinking about their kid who could have
been injured in a car wreck. There was something going on with their family.
And my first thought was, you are inconveniencing me. I am watching
the movie. And then I just went from zero to crazy. I just
blew it. I just became what I despise. And so as we were
driving home, we were kind of laughing about it. But I told Natalie,
I'm like, you know, I know I was wrong, and I'm
sorry I embarrassed you, and and you know, I hope you'll allow it.
I can kind of grow through failure here and that I'll do better.
I'm gonna make a commitment to try to just be better next time. And
she was laughing, and I said, you know, I can be an
asshole, but I'm also a good man, and she's like, you are
a good man. It's okay, It's okay, yea. So it was
a lot over a little, but it's still something I kind of blush about.
What's wrong with me? Why did I go there? Why did it
bother me so much? Why did I turn on this guy so quickly.
I've been thinking about that kind of thing. No, I didn't know him.
He was the stranger, he was the other. And then I'm watching
the film Oppenheimer, which is rooted in the Second World War, And on
the larger philosophical note, I'm thinking about the human desire and tendency, especially
by men, to want to dominate and take over the world. Right,
I mean, Hitler wanted world domination. Japan's emperor Hirohito wanted world domination at
that time. Right, these were people who were willing to blow up the
world, to consolidate power, to procure resources, and dominate everybody and everything.
And I keep thinking about who drew the border lines. We see the
nationalist here in the United States, we're better than everybody else, We're superior
to everybody else. And once you cross this line, which was drawn here
at this river or at this point, you know this geographical location, once
you take a step over that, now you are in inferior territory with inferior
people. They matter less. Well. Who drew the line, like some
human beings, some subjective person drew that line, Who said the line can't
be moved or changed or expanded or erased. Oh, there he goes,
there he goes. He's going all John Lennon on us. You know,
imagine a world, imagine Yeah, Okay, somebody somewhere took a sharpie and
said, this land is my land? Why is the gospel? Why is
that sacred? I just don't get it, this tribal thing. I mean,
I get the benefit of tribes. I think I'm not opposed to having
nations, but this idea that the lines are sacrosanct and that makes us superior
and everybody else inferior. And then the dominionists want to go and they want
to not just own what we have here and sign the line. They want
to go and own everything outside the line. They want everything in this block
and that group, and this continent whatever. We are a planet that's been
marked up on a map by somebody somewhere, and we never stopped a question.
Who drew the line, and why would it make us more important than
somebody else. Now I was a Christian nationalist. I felt that we are
superior more than anybody else. God has picked us right, and we are
to go out and convert the world and make everybody like us. But when
I came out of the faith. It was more like, we are all
brothers and sisters, We are all the human condition. I love my country,
but it doesn't mean I love anybody else less. Why would it have
to be binary? Why does it have to be a zero sum game?
Why can't I advocate for my neighbors on this part of the planet but not
cast out or vilify those who might be my further neighbors outside the fence.
And what if I was to take down the fence and we could all share
the planet together as human brothers and sisters. That's a fantasy of mine.
And watching Oppenheimer and the development of the Adam bomb to try to stop world
domination by dominators and then all the interworking politics and the power grab going on
within the United States just overwhelming. It's just overwhelming, at the very least
regarding one of the messages behind Oppenheimer's I'm sick and tired of the dominionists trying
to stomp out the rest of us. Let's take some call, but first
short break, be right back. Glad you're here, Thanks for listening,
Thanks for your supports. Commercial free show. You get two days early if
you become a patron Patreon dot com slash Seth Andrews to the switchboard. We
go, Alex, are you there? I am what is on your mind?
Rebellion and reacting to pretty much what you just said. I've reached the
point where not acting is causing harm. And I was living in Rochester Hills
in a trailer park, Rochester Hills, Michigan, and my trailer was on
a corner with the biggest bus stop in the entire park, basically, and
I was seeing kids from elementary all the way to high school getting on and
off the bus every day. So I started sitting in my window and just
yelling out the window. God and Jesus are made up, just like Santa
and the Easter Money. I was telling them, hey, kids, mom
and dad have to hate you. Jesus commands it in order for them to
follow him. I was putting all kinds of Bible verses out there for kids.
I was sending them over to the Atheist Experience, to your Channel,
to a lot of channels. Hugo and Jake back when they were doing the
Bible Reloaded, it was actually super successful. I had a lot of kids
come back privately and talk to me and ask questions and get sources. I
know for a fact I turned quite a few kids atheists. Some of the
parents moved with their kids out of the park. Some parents showed up at
my house and we're circling the signs that I had in my yard, taking
pictures and all kinds of craziness. But the words spread and nobody ever got
physical with me, and the kids were sharing the information as well. And
at the time I was threatened with eviction from the park, I had all
kinds of just backlash. Police were called. It was pretty nuts. I've
recently moved to Highland, Michigan, into a very Trump supporting park. My
neighbor has a Trump flag hanging on his porch. So I'm telling you this
to show you that we are making progress in the atheist community. We are
waking people up. It's becoming normalized. I went to the office to ask
for permission to put signs all over my house with the same Bible verses I
used in Rochester Hills, and they said absolutely, you can do that.
Years ago in the other park, I was not allowed to do that and
was threatened by the park itself. So it's progress that I'm being allowed to
have the same freedom my neighbor had, and I'm going to take full advantage
of it. I plan to put the signs up this weekend. And there's
a lot of kids, especially young girls, living directly on both sides of
me. So I've already given a heads up to the women in those houses
that I'm going to war against the men. Tell them to keep their hands
off our bodies. And I'm going to post all the pro abortion verses and
the verse where Jesus commands hatred of one's own children, the verse where Jesus
says He's going to make you eat your own sons and daughters, you know,
tell the truth about Jesus, that their mom and dad want them to
commit their lives too. And it's stuff that's easy to look up in the
Bible. Well, I've got what you think. I've got no problem with
presenting in a private forum, even your own property, your concerns and condemnations
of the religion. But if we were to reverse the streams, and if
you were boarding a bus or your kids were getting on a bus, and
somebody was nearby screaming out Bible versus and saying you're going to hell, well
they're doing that here. They allow that here they allow the churches, even
one of them as an IFB church, they allowed them to come in here
and propagate their crap. That's what gave me the idea was to counter the
lies that the churches are telling and show the truth about what the Bible really
says. I would never be one to tell you to not do something that
is bringing results. I myself blanche a little bit at the idea of yelling
this stuff out at a bus stop, in a public square at children.
These are conversations that need to be had. I worry a little bit about
the process and the efficacy overall of saying the Old Testament says God wants people
to eat babies. The verse may be in there. Oh, that's in
Revelation. I know it. Actually it's the Old Testament too, I believe.
Yeah, but it's you know, it is interesting, and I think
on your own term, certainly on your own property, within the boundaries of
your own life, being able to express your lack of faith in any sort
of you know, magical other out there, and to condemn the atrocities and
scripture. I think those are valid and you have every right to do that.
It's been beautiful. I mean, I really thought I was going to
get shot at some point, but I haven't. And I'm getting quite a
bit of support from the women, which surprises me. It's waking them up
too, So just no, we are helping out there. We're doing what
we can. I may be weird, but if I wasn't getting good results,
I wouldn't keep doing it. So thank you for everything you do.
I know you don't encourage necessarily some of the stuff that I do. You
and I may stand apart on the process, but I am interested in your
story and if you are in fact getting results, and perhaps you can update
us on this six months down the way, Okay, I definitely will.
All right, hanging there, Alex, appreciate you. What are your thoughts.
You're at a bus stop. You know there are a lot of religious
kids who are getting on the bus, and you say, read your Old
Testament. The Bible says God will burn you, or gay should be executed,
or your parents in the Book of Matthew are required to hate their children
for the sake of Christ if it comes down to that, because it's all
the divine popularity contest, open your eyes, read your Bible, so if
someone was shouting that over a parking lot, would that be effective to you?
If it's effective to some, why is it effective? What are the
ratios and percentages? I think this call brings about a lot of questions.
It's not my thing, It's not what I would do, but I am
interested in Alex's story and I appreciate her sharing it. Seven zero three,
who's this Laura? Laura? Thanks for calling. What's on your mind?
Well? First of all, oh, mister Andrews. I have been a
fan of your radio show since I was about sixteen, so it's an honor.
Thank you, Thank you, and please call me Seth. Mister Andrews
just kills a part of my heart because it makes me sound like Methuselah.
But you're very kind, you're very good. Go ahead. What do you
want to talk about, mister Seth? Go ahead? I just wanted to
talk about the issue of borders that you mentioned. I have to politely say
that I disagree. I feel that stuff like that exists for a good reason,
in both safety wise and in terms of giving people a sense of identity
who otherwise might not feel like they really have one. I also have to
say in terms of like national identity. And I know that this is a
controversial view coming from an atheist, but I'm that actually a fan of the
two states system. And I'm also well, first of all, I'm a
big advocate for my fellow disabled community, and I feel that the disabled community
kind of feels like here in the US, they don't really see us.
I feel that we need an Israel of sorts. It's like this, you
know how, at least on paper, Israel is seen as the home of
the Jewish community. The reservations are seen as something like that for the Native
Americans. At least on paper, it's more complicated. But I wonder what
it would be like if the disabled community had the option of going somewhere where
it's our bodies, ourselves, our laws, ourselves. People without disabilities could
obviously live there, but I wonder what it would be like if we had
the option of being able to say I'm not an American anymore. I live
in whatever country would be specifically founded for people with disabilities. Do you feel
like that would cheat the larger, more healthy I would say, more healthy
attitude that we are all the human condition. I mean, wouldn't it further
marginalized disabled people to lock them away. I mean many people would consider that
to be, for lack of a better way of saying it, kind of
an island of misfit toys. They would then be able to brush them off,
lock them away. They would be othered. Isn't the goal to help
those with disabilities actually be a parts, an equal part of life with the
rest of us. Wouldn't that be a more worthy goal than segregation? However,
I would also consider it a comfort to know that there would be an
option where it's people that actually get us because they are us and we don't
have that well, I myself would never try to nullify the perspective of someone
who lives with a disability every single day. I think it's yeah, I
called the end. I'm autistic. I can't really feel what you have felt.
I can't see the world through your eyes. And I understand also the
healthy benefit of tribes, you know, the community of people who suffer with
cerebral palsy and autism who can get each other, perhaps share a space,
support each other. You can pursue common goals to raise awareness, even money
for research to help cure or at least treat some issues. I totally understand
the benefit the pro social and productive aspects of tribes. I myself struggle a
little bit with the idea of people sort of coordinate themselves off away from the
rest of us, because I worry that a greater effect beyond the community you
might feel is that you would be further cast off and not given the opportunities
that we seek for everybody and to share the world equally. I don't know,
it's an interesting idea that I've never heard said in that way before.
Can you kind of let me chew on that for a while and everybody in
the in the listening audience and have some discussion about it. Also, I
kind of feel that in terms of disability advocacy, yeah, we have plenty
of equivalence to Susan B. Anthony and Marl Luther King, But where our
our equivalence to Emmeline Pankhurst and Malcolm X. Sometimes the non disabled majority needs
to fear us. I understand why you wouldn't want a blind person with a
gun, But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait on physically do that to fear you? No? No, no answer.
Help me understand why would you want someone to fear you? Give me
a context for that, because sometimes that's the only way that you can get
people's attention. Sometimes you need muscle behind the revolution. And you would support
in that context the use of what force and or violence against able lists,
so long as as it was within a context of not hurting innocent people and
only against those who are like intentionally trying to hurt us. Who would make
that determination? Warming of the bastield? But how would you make the determination?
Where would the line be drawn? I'm going to commit violence against this
person because they are an agent of harm. Who would set the line?
Who would determine what harm is specifically? And how would you mean? I'm
not sure, but that's why we need a community to know. So a
community would decide a guideline a specific someone says this sentence or tries to submit
or propos or past this law, they would then be an agent of harm
against the disabled, and we would then warrant or condone violence against them.
Am I understanding that? Yeah? There are some laws within the US where
it's like the early stages of what ke for ended up being I mean,
you're not killing us outright admitting to it, but they're making it so well,
you might as well say that you want to. You're acting like you
wish we weren't here. Do you see it opening the door to a kind
of reactive anarchy. People subjectively say you've harmed me. Now I'm going to
pull out a baseball bat or a gun or run somebody over in a crowd,
justified because I feel subjectively harmed. I'm not trying to marginalize when it
works. I'm not an opponent that violence should only be the absolute plan z.
However, sometimes plan z is necessary. Okay, well, I'm not
opposing pushback, even by force, against aggressors against you. I'm just trying
to understand. Does someone qualify aggression as a word spoken. If someone says
a certain word, is violence warranted against them? If someone says it would
be better if we were all dead. If someone says that they do not
view us as equals, no matter how hard we try. If someone says
that they are inherently more human than us because they quote unquote looks apart,
I feel that that is the early stages of genocidal ableism. I myself want
to express first and primarily, that I understand the tremendous frustration that the disabled
feel in a world that has purposefully, in many cases been not fashioned for
them. They've been dismissed and discarded. I have real concerns about calls for
violence against people who have not been approached violently first. That's a conversation.
I think we're probably gone. We've been approached first. This is self defect.
If someone speaks a word against you, even protected speech, which is
hate speech. I worry about living in a world where someone subjectively says I
grew homes where they're letting people start. If somebody I'm not talking about one
needs to storm the back field, if someone is starving people to death,
it is different than I have spoken a hateful word, which is sadly but
necessarily protected as free speech. The way to defeat that, I would argue
is not to pull a gun and shoot them in the street and call it
self defense. I worry about that kind of thinking, and I think that's
fair for shooting people for speaking. I feel that we need to be able
to defend ourselves against physical, emotional, sexual and mental harm. Okay,
well, when now we're talking about someone who is perpetrating physical harm, which
is a different conversation. It's like the punch a Nazi crowd. What they
do is they say that someone who hates I'm sorry, I'm the image in
my head of Sean Spicer, all right, but not that I advocate violence
out of nowhere. But well, I appreciate your call very much, and
we'll perhaps chat down the way. Okay, it was lovely to be on
the shot, No, thank you. Where I was going with that is,
if you run into a white supremacist on the street, someone who doesn't
believe in equality and believes that people of color, etc. Are not of
equal status, even not even human, is the way to defeat that to
sucker punch them in the street. And there's a culture of people I understand
their frustration, who believe that that is how we solve the problem. I
don't think myself. I don't think we sucker punch our way to a better
world. I think it feels good in the second we watch the video of
somebody getting their ass kicked, a neo Nazi gets pummeled with a fist in
the street, We're like, yeah, fuck that guy. I understand the
emotional response, the satisfaction in the moment. I just don't think that's how
we fix the world, and I don't think that's an unreasonable concern. These
are difficult conversations, aren't they. There's certainly hot button conversation, but I
think we should be able to talk about them. I've got Matthew, thanks
for calling. What do you want to talk about? I've talked to you
a few times. I've always been a huge fan of your work. By
the way, thank you so much. Thank you. I heard you and
Matt Della Hunty recently speaking about the twelve step program. I think you guys
were maybe at a conference. I was curious your faults on the twelve step
concept because I myself am a recovering addict. I am an atheist, and
I'm pretty vocal humanist, and I know that we maybe had some disagreements here,
but I think some of it may just be misunderstanding. So I'm really
just curious to plish that out a little bit, if that's okay. My
opposition to Alcoholics Anonymous and the twelve step program isn't that it hasn't worked for
some people. In fact, for that reason, I will tell people who
are recovering addicts that if the program helped you, I would never be the
one to negate that I would never be the one to say you shouldn't have
done it. You know, if it has helped you, then good for
you. My challenge with AA is that it wasn't begun from a science based
framework, and it relies heavily on the concept of a higher power. You
put your trust or faith, you have an anchor in some other somewhere,
and they're kind of nebulous about what that is. My challenge with that twelve
step model is that it sort of robs you of responsibility and it cheats you
of a feeling of real accomplishment when you do the heavy lifting of beating addiction.
You know, it's saying, essentially you don't have it within you lean
on a higher power. I think that's a legitimate concern, don't you It
is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I will say I think that's a
great takeaway. So I'm not arguing with you. I just I want you
to if you can just maybe hear a little different perspective. So like myself,
my sponsor, like a long line of the people that I'm in the
Narcotics Anonymous program with, we're pretty much all atheists. Like I mean,
there are so many religious people in our community. But like a lot of
us are working towards We have what they call like conference agenda report, and
I won't for you with all the details, but it's where we get together
every couple of years and work towards changing the language in our literature. You
know, some of it is an appeal to tradition. We see that fallacy
along the lines of you know, how it was written, and a lot
of us see those problems. You know, a lot of us are more
focused on like the community aspect of you know, when I got clean,
I needed somebody that had been there, you know, I needed somebody to
call and say, you know, hey, Seth, look, I don't
know why I'm thinking about using you know, but I am. And you
know, somebody would say, hey, look I've been there, this is
how I did it. It really does help, you know, that sense
of community. I have an undergrad and psychologist kind of my thing, and
that's the kind of nursing that I do, and we see it a lot.
And I really think that if you can remove some of the religious language
from the program, and a lot of us have I can't speak for people
as a whole, but I can say that for me, it helped a
great deal because it wasn't just about the higher power at that point, you
know, it was about the power greater than myself. Was the people around
me that helped me with my addiction. That has been there, you know,
that unifying concept of hey, together we can. That's a that's a
recurring theme in our literature, you know, together we can. When I
hear community, I don't think God, I don't think spirits. I don't
think higher power. I hear shared experience and human supports and love and no
gods, no monsters. You know, to me, that sounds like the
kind of thing I could really get behind. And it's only whenever people have
their agency removed that I start to become concerns. But if it has helped
you, man, I'm just glad that you are on the other side,
and I'm glad that you've had success, and I wish you an addiction free
life of freedom and happiness, love and goodness absolutely well. And so I
completely agree with that. I think that the net is very big. It's
kind of one of the biggest dogs in the fight, the whole twelve step
program. I think that we still have a lot of reform with regards to
the language, some of the religious language, some of the very gender specific
language. You know, we recently have voted on the idea of doing away
with this terminology of God, you know, for people that prefer to say
higher power or whatever. I think that, like you said, I agree
that the core tenants don't have to involve a lot of that. I guess
I just wanted to give you a different picture. You know, a lot
of us don't feel that way. I mean, I don't think you and
I disagree. I hear a lot. There are also some secular sobriety programs
out there that are starting to get noticed, and they do the same thing.
It is about community. I think they may be a little more focused
on the science of addiction, how is the body acting and reacting to substances,
the psychology behind addictive behaviors, and then really focusing not on gods or
higher powers, but on the power that we have as human beings. And
if A does more of that, and the twelve step programs do more of
that. Moving forward, delighted, But I think you and I largely line
up, and I wish you all success in your journey. Okay, we
definitely do it. Hey, Seth, thank you again for everything you do.
I can't wait to see you at the at the next a bit you
speak at buddy, very kind, so much. Thank you. We'll see
you later. Two five six is it? Dan? Yeah? Dan,
appreciate you man. What's up? What do you want to talk about?
Well, I had a personal story I was wanting to tell you, but
I'm listening to the previous conversation. I just had a comment about borders and
national identity. And you know, I was born and raised in the US.
I lived here, but through work, I have the opportunity to travel
about two hundred days a year through Africa, eur Middle East, Asia,
and through my experiences, the one thing I've determined is that we're really all
the same. When you have the opportunity to get to know personally an African
or a German, or a Greek or someone from the Middle East, and
you sit down and you have a meal with them, those imaginary lines disappear
really quickly, and you find that we all really do want the same things.
We want, the same lives, we want, you know, we
all seek the same happinesses and so yeah, if you want to criticize governments
by all means. You know, criticize the looks religions by all means,
but you always have to keep in mind that these people, they're just like
us. There's the borders are like you said, they're drawn by some person,
and they don't really mean anything in the lives of the people we meet.
Who was it who said one of the best cures for bigotry is travel
to go and meet the people that you have othered for so long. I'm
fully aware that there are some right now who are screaming about the border wall.
We need a wall and at the Mexican border because them Mexicans, you
know, have come up, the illegals have come up. And yet you
know, there have been so many instances where we are introduced to immigrants and
people who are from other countries our southern border in past, and they meet
them and realize that they are people who simply want to escape oppression, who
love their families and want their protection, who work hard, who want to
share this planet in peace. You know, when you see those walls,
you see the bigotries come down and dissipate. You're right, Let's meet the
people we share the planet with in good faith. Good things can happen.
That's why my brother. What else did you want to talk about today?
Well, I had a story that I think you might find interesting. It
was it was my conversion story, and I haven't really heard anyone like it.
A little backstory up in twenty twelve, me and my wife came out
of the religion of that we were raised in by our parents through research and
watching videos online and stuff, and I had got into a place where I
was like, I'm okay with the fact that I don't believe my religion anymore.
But I wasn't really interested in taking it any further. I was okay,
I can believe in God, I can believe in heaven and Hell,
and I don't have to believe my religion that I was raised in. But
through my travels, I spend tons of time in hotel rooms and I passed
my time a lot of times watching YouTube. And I was in bed one
evening watching some videos and ended up falling asleep, and I had left the
auto play on, so the videos just kept rolling through while I'm sleepy,
and I wake up the next morning with these memories of these vivid dreams that
I had been having at night, and I had this overwhelming aha moment where
I'm like it all makes sense. I finally get it, and I had
never felt it. It was a close I guess I could say a religious
experience for a lack of a better term. But I realized at that moment
that I don't believe anymore. And I noticed my YouTube was playing. So
I was that voice in my head is so crystal clear. I could still
hear that voice talking to me. So I'm like, was it something I
was watching? So I started hitting the back button, back, back back,
and I came to a video and it was Seth Andrews. Christianity made
me sound like an idiot, no way, I know. I hit play.
As soon as I hit play, I'm like, that was the voice
in my head, That's what I was listening to. And so I was
so focused on that video, watched it intently, and watched another one and
another one. I probably spent the next twenty hours doing nothing but watching video.
And it was like that voice in my head that and I don't know
if it was that in my sleep. My cognitive dissonance wasn't able to kick
in and shut it down. Like we've been taught through religion. You know
you hear anything that contradicts you to shut it down. And it was the
first time that I was able to when I woke up, tell myself I
don't believe. And for the first time I know why. It all made
sense. Every doubt I had had my entire life, every nagging question came
pouring back of I finally understand. And I have wanted to thank you so
deeply for the work that you do because it literally changed my life forever,
and I'm so grateful to you. Dude. I came to you in a
dream like it was like an apparition that appeared before the in the dream.
That's just a story that I would like to tell at parties, you know,
But it was it was that face, I mean, the voice you
have for radio. It was so soothing and calming, and it just hooked
me. For the first time, it all just made sense. Well,
that's tremendous for me to hear. You know. I think all of us,
no matter where we are, even at a point position somewhere, you
know, I think sometimes we have imposter syndrome. You know, Do I
really deserve to be doing this? There are other people more qualified? Doesn't
really make a difference. And when someone tells you this kind of story,
I mean, it's totally blows my mind and makes my day. And you
encourage me. You've done the heavy lifting. You're the one who's now living
an authentic life on your terms acknowledging that you don't buy it. I think
that's inspiring and I'm so glad you told me. That's really amazing. Man.
Well, if you ever have doubts about your work, just know that
there's at least one person out there that owes you more than you'll know.
Now, you're very kind. I hope we get a chance to shake hands
in person someday. Okay, now, I'd look forward to that. All
right, be safe. Thanks again. So if it works like that,
could we lull other believers to sleep and then just sneak in and turn the
speech on, like if the defenses are down? Would that work? Oh
aren't you sleepy? Go to sleep? Go to sleep? Da da da
da da dad. They're out, and then we go and put on a
thinking atheist podcast. Maybe that's the way it. Maybe that's how we cut
through. I don't know. Regardless, I am absolutely blown away by that
call. Okay, if you want to go to sleep and listen to our
final segment. Subliminally, now would be the time. I'll be right back
after this break. Don't forget. I've got a second podcast of short form
True Stories. Would love to have you check it out and subscribe True Stories
podcast dot com. Three two three Are you there? What's your name?
Joel? Joel? What's on your mind? Yeah? I was curious about
attitudes of Evangelical Christians towards Jews while you were still an Evangelical Christian. Just
for a background, I grew up Jewish and a liberal family in Los Angeles,
and you know, there's still a fair amount of Jews here, but
it's you know, there's still a very distinct minority. And you know,
I would get a lot of I mean, most people were fine, but
I would get people either who just cannot understand why my family didn't sell very
Christmas down to kids who are telling me that I had murdered their Lord and
things like that. And I'm just curious what you saw as attitudes towards Jews
when you were still an Evangelical Christian. My family honored the Jews. In
fact, until my father's death a couple of years ago. I think They
had on the back of their car a pro Israel window sticker to show solidarity
for God's Chosen people and the Holy Land. You know, they were very
much Zionists in that way. They were fans of the Jews even it's which
is weird because I don't believe Jewish tradition holds to Christ or Christ's return.
Was that true in your case? Right? You weren't. You're not a
Jesus oriented culture. If you're a Jew, Jesus is essentially irrelevant to Judaism.
Yeah, yeah, which is so it's weird to see devout evangelicals who
were really very pro Jewish state honored the Jewish people when the Jewish people in
that very important way, it kind of rejected Jesus. You think it was
because they really admired the Jewish people, or was it because they thought it
was essential for the Book of Relation to play outs for the Jews to all
go to Israel. I don't think it's binary. I saw both. My
father took us to a film I was, you know, I couldn't really
get into it. I was so young, but it was called The Chosen
and the two characters in the film, one was sort of a mainstream,
casual cultural Jew and the other was a hardcore Orthodox Jew. And they were
both teenagers and their lives intersected, and it was sort of a contrast of
cultures. But both of these young men lived under the umbrella of Judaism,
and it showed how much they had in common against their differences, becoming human
being sharing the same space, worshiping the same God. And my father thought
that was an amazing story. He had real admiration for the Jewish people.
But you bring to light one of the major excuses that white supremacists and other
racist and bigots have against Jewish people. They're saying, well, the Jews
reject Christ, so we reject the Jews, and we must do so biblically,
morally, etc. You know, that's how they excuse bigotry against the
Jewish people. It's pathetic. Do you think that work. Do you know
what people thought about Jewish salvation and do they think they could still go to
heaven even though they didn't accept Jesus. We never talked about that. I
think in my mind, our culture had always just assumed, well, the
chosen people are in man, you know, say you're the chosen people,
so you always kind of got your back, right, You've already got the
golden ticket. We're not too worried about the Jews. That was our I
really do. I think that Christian homes are so varied the spectrum of this
sort of custom fitted Christianity, from the hardcore to the casual to everybody in
between. Different interpretations, different Bible translations, different prophets, pastors, agendas,
etc. I mean, you can go to any Christian home and ask
them about the Jews. You're probably going to get a different answer. But
my culture where I came out of, we were very deferential. You know,
we sort of honored the Jewish people because they were indeed chosen. But
we are seeing in our headlines today a lot of Bible thumping Christians who have
attacked and continued to attack Jewish people because they rejected Christ and or maybe they
are just simply monstrous, awful people. So have you experienced as far as
discrimination in that way? I mean, you live in the United States,
are you feeling that heat? Not really? I mean, growing up I
always get some ignorance and hostility, and especially kids telling me and either going
to Hell or that we murdered their lord and things like that. I mean,
as an adults, I've gotten very little, you know, I do
see a lot of ignorance among other people about Judaism. And like I was
having a conversation with a co worker a number of years ago. It was
an evangelical Christian and she could not wrap her head around the fact that Jews
did not believe in Jesus. That Jesus was irrelevant. Help me understand something.
This is a conversation I'm interested in. Is being a Jew a belief
system or is it a netchnicity? Like if I was to decide I'm an
adherent to Judaism, would I then be a Jew? Or is jew more
of a racial question? Or I mean, are these discussions that people have
within Jewish cultures some extent? I mean, Judaism is a religion, it's
not an ethnicity. But at least most Jews are of a particular of the
Oscan Nazi ethnicity, which is extended from Jews who had settled, you know,
many centuries ago in Eastern Europe. So that's my background, and so
there's a certain culture associated with it. And you know, talking about what
Jews believe, there's many, many different streams of Judaism, just like in
Christianity. You know, I grew up Jewish, but I became an atheist
when I was fairly young. And most Jews I know in la and Los
Angeles are not practicing. They're either atheist or just not practicing. But you
know, there's a certain cultural association with you know, Yiddish culture and some
of the holidays and things like that, but most most Jews or not particularly
religious. So it would be akin to we see Islam more attributed to those
of Middle Eastern cultures and ethnicities. But you can be anybody and believe the
Quran. You can hold to the religion of Islam. Would that be inaccurate?
Sure? Is that similar to how Judaism works. Yeah, Like there
are Muslims of all stripes, there are Jews of all stripes, but you
know, most of them who fall into either the Hashkenazi or the Phardic ethnicities.
Interesting that what is it fifty percent of Jews. I'm trying to remember
the study. Somebody look it up in fact check me, but it's like
roughly half of people who profess Judaism either don't believe in a God or have
some significant doubts about God. Does that ring true for you? At least
my experience, it does. I mean, there are Jewish communities that are
very religious, but at least in my experience and Los Angeles that most Jews
are not particularly religious. You know, they do believe in God, it's
sort of a vague way. A lot of Jews I know who say they
believe in God. You know, I think it's more they enjoy the you
know, the culture and celebrating the holidays and going to temple and things like
that, but they're not deeply religious at all. I support that. I
love the idea of ritual to frame the human experience. No God's required,
so you can enjoy the music and the tradition and the dress and the stuff.
You know, you can fashion all of these accouterments for specific parts of
your life, but you don't really necessarily needs supernatural thinking to be a part
of it. And I think we're seeing this played out within much of the
Jewish cultures out there, and I think that's very interesting to watch. You
know. It's sort of a non theistic religion of tradition. Yeah, that's
a good way to put up. Well, these are interesting questions. All
I can say is from my experience, we honored the Jewish people. We
wanted a Jewish state. Israel belongs to the Jews. Kind of thing against
all the opposition. It is a holy war, if it must be,
kind of thing in advance of the return of Christ, which the Jews didn't
really believe in. But you know, welcome to religion. Right. Your
brain just can compartmentalize it will, But I appreciate your call very much,
my friend. Okay, thanks that all right, hang in there, we'll
see you. I'm gonna call it my friends. Let me finish this by
saying that I'm glad that this is a community that transcends borders. We are
a globe, we are a planet without border lines. And it's so cool.
When I did local radio, we'd have people within the city. You
know, there's this sort of broadcast radius as pretty narrow. But in the
age of the Internet, I get correspondence from Japan. I hear from listeners
in Russia and Brazil and Mexico, and it's crazy. And so we may
be an example of humanity without borders. Right belief systems, convictions about the
world are humanistic values. These are not national values. They are human values.
And we are all the human race. Love you much, have a
great week. We'll see you bye. Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and
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